US Meltdown Puts Heat on Canada
Decades of fusing the two economies exposes us to grave risk.
Watching the turmoil in financial markets this past week, the question is no longer whether there will be a meltdown, but how much melting is left to go. So what's next, and what does this mean for Canada?
It's worth reflecting on just how far up we climbed. The back-story is now familiar: the lowest interest rates since the 1960s that prevailed in the aftermath of 9-11 reduced the cost of holding a mortgage, and led many people to buy into the real estate market. As prices went up, others wanted to get in on the action "or get priced out forever."
Before long, bullish sentiment overwhelmed rational thinking: real estate prices went through the roof, with doubling and in some cases tripling of resale prices between 2001 and 2007 in Vancouver.
On the way up, increasing asset prices created a "wealth effect" -- those lucky enough to see the value of their home go up so much were more inclined the spend money, thereby stimulating the real economy. Moreover, rising home prices led to spectacular new residential construction, providing more jobs and more income to keep the party going.
This particular party was a real bender, and now it's hangover time. Our southern neighbours went even wilder -- everyone was invited -- and they are now feeling a world of hurt. But even though our Canadian party did not rock as hard, there was plenty of liquid refreshment, and it went well into the wee hours.
The jaw dropping events in the U.S. are the gears thrown into reverse: a vicious cycle of falling home prices, with homeowners sitting on mortgage debt that is worth more than the market value of their home. New residential construction is at half of 2005 levels, undercutting employment, and home prices are down about 25 per cent.
Integration changed equation
In Canada, we have been lagging developments in the U.S. But new investment in residential construction fell in the first half of 2008, and average home resale prices in August fell by five per cent compared to a year earlier.
Because the U.S. is so much bigger than we are, and our economies so interconnected after two decades of increasing integration, their downturn will hurt Canada, too. Their drop in residential construction, in particular, hurts wood product sales from our forestry sector, and their overall slowdown undercuts our exports across the economy.
The unwinding is complicated by actions in the U.S. financial sector, which repackaged dubious mortgages, and made out like bandits. Once the value of homes started to come back down, it exposed a lot of bad wood underneath the veneer. What is becoming clearer by the day is that this can only be solved by major write-downs of those "toxic mortgages" that are clogging up the balance sheets of big financial corporations.
Big government steps in
An irony of the current situation is to see a right-wing U.S. government engaged in massive government intervention in order to prevent a meltdown -- except they are bailing out the people who caused the problem in the first place. Brokers and dealers made millions -- worth decades of real work by real people -- en route to the current financial crisis. The next step appears to be having the U.S. government take much of this bad debt off the hands of the banking sector. Privatize gains and socialize losses is the rule.
If only governments these days were as committed to protecting the security of regular working folks. It would be far better for the government to step in and take over mortgages from families, so that they could stay in their homes with greater certainty through this period of turmoil.
In Canada, how far down is the bottom is anyone's guess. What's troubling is a federal government whose answer to every problem is a tax cut. An economic downturn has already begun in Canada, with economic growth stalling in the first half of 2008. Canada's economic fundamentals are anything but sound, despite mantras to the contrary.
That downturn is pushing the federal budget towards deficit, but having rejected deficits outright, the Harper government will have to cut spending to balance its budget, thereby making economic problems worse. This is precisely the type of thinking that turns recessions into depressions.
The Japan example
Yet, while recent developments invoke the spectre of the Great Depression, a full-blown collapse is unlikely. A better modern example is Japan, the miracle economy of the 1980s (just as the U.S. was in the 1990s and naughties). Following a collapse in its stock and real estate markets in the early 1990s, it took Japan the better part of a decade to get back on track.
The prospect of this downturn taking several years to unwind is a realistic one, given how overextended Canadians are in terms of debt. Statistics Canada recently reported that Canadian households are sitting on $1.25 in debt for every dollar they have in income. And that's going into a slowdown/recession.
The crisis may also mark an end to the notion that "investing" means guaranteed annual double-digit returns (far in excess of income growth) without having to do any real work. This is painful news if you were planning on retiring soon, and have a stock portfolio as your keystone to financial security. Ditto if you bought real estate in the last two or three years (perhaps more depending on how far things fall). Many households out there will soon understand the term "negative equity," where debts exceed the value of assets.
Canada needs a plan, too
In the meantime, we need a plan, not glib reassurances. Most good fiscal policy recommendations have started with the notion of getting money quickly into the hands of those who will spend all of it. In the short-run it would primarily work through EI, but one could also imagine souping up the GST credit, the Canada Child Tax Benefit and Old Age Pensions, not to mention provincial welfare systems.
In addition to this, a timely intervention would be to fund a major public works campaign for climate-change-related infrastructure. Huge public transit investments. Energy efficiency retrofits. Alternative power. These are all things we need to be doing anyway, given the climate challenge. As employment drops, these projects could be brought on line quickly if the pre-planning was already in place.
As John Kenneth Galbraith famously noted, bubbles do not burst in an orderly manner. This ride is far from over, and more than any time in recent decades we need an activist government to make sure that families are not wiped out.
Related Tyee stories:
- Ready for a Slump?
As BC's economy cools, how well are we prepared? - The Plan to Disappear Canada
'Deep integration' comes out of shadows. - 'Turning the Screws'
Give up on social programs, says Harper budget.
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Frank
3 years ago
Marc Lee
Excellent article. What it boils down to is the rich get richer because the poor bail out the rich when they screw up.
Unfortunately we will not see any policy designed to make things better here in Canada. We're about to re-elect R.B. Bennett in the guise of Harper and Flaherty minus the bit of cash in envelopes R.B. would send to people that wrote to him. For some reason I think Harper has even less empathy.
G West
3 years ago
So far all we're hearing in the US
Is an appeal for corporate welfare...and much the same in Canada. Of course we're going to be hit, and hard.
The answers are out there - stop capping payroll taxes for one and start treating all income, no matter how earned, exactly the same way.
I assume the Liberals (if elected) would reverse the one good move pee wee made on income trusts...so I don't expect much will change on that front even if Dion ends up as PM...
Dr Alexander
3 years ago
We're gonna get hit hard, but you can live off the Scenery
It seems that this kind of magic is possible in Vancouver and why we are not paying as much attention to the meltdown as we should.
At any rate, Canada has been accused of being the Corporate Welfare State since I can remember that term in the Seventies. In fact, the Corporations have had it quite good, in part, due to sensible regulations that tends to work to everyone's benefit.
It's called "Red Tape". The stuff that unregulated free-marketers revile in the same way they revile the term "bureaucrat".
To me, their bureaucrat is my derivatives broker
Van Isle
3 years ago
The Conservatives have
The Conservatives have their heads stuck up their behinds and they think that the only way to solve an economic problem is to reduce taxes. Wasn't Flaherty the finance minister in Ontario? Sure was a genius at screwing up their economy too wasn't he? The Cons will form the next Government and in 4 years they'll go down in flames like the Campbell Cons did in 1993 cuz they're no good at handling money.
Cynic
3 years ago
Not so excellent article.
Not so excellent article. One would think that the senior economist of an organization like the CCPA would point out that the people of Canada have their own capital formation agency called the Bank of Canada from which we can get interest-free money, that the root of the financial crises that occur regularly is the debt-based money created by the private banks who loan our means of exchange into existence, laden with the interest burden that siphons wealth to the financial elite. This smells like a gatekeeper article. Marc Lee, where's the piercing insight? Where's the truth?
siamdave
3 years ago
If you want to make a plan -
- you better have a better understanding of the root of the problem than this article indicates - get your feet wet here - BANKETEERING http://www.rudemacedon.ca/lgi/banketeering.html
First we take back our brains, then we go for the country.
grapeman
3 years ago
Inequality a Key
Good article, but I would add that inequality is perhaps the biggest underlying reason for all of these problems. Relative inequality between the top and bottom quintile in both the USA and Canada is near the worst it's been since the 1920's. If working and middle class people had more real wealth, then we wouldn't be in such a mess.
realisticman
3 years ago
Fairly good article
except for:
An irony of the current situation is to see a right-wing U.S. government engaged in massive government intervention in order to prevent a meltdown -- except they are bailing out the people who caused the problem in the first place.
Not exactly. Bear Stearns was sold and has gone. Morgan Stanley is partly sold and has changed forever. Lehman has been bought by Barclays.
Lehman Brothers went bankrupt last week, although its US operation re-opened yesterday under Barclays' ownership. Merrill Lynch is set to be swallowed through a $50bn buyout by Bank of America.
It is the end of an era.
G West
3 years ago
Just more disgusting corporate welfare
These characters brought on their own ruin - they should have been permitted to stew in it.
But, in any case, the measures contemplated are not going to end the carnage - not by a long shot....the only sad part is that every global capitalist won't find him or herself standing in a bread line tomorrow.
That is where these self-styled masters of the universe belong.
They do nothing but move paper and pixels - like dinosaurs, they deserve to swept into the ash-heap of history with Carnegie, Mellon, Rockefeller and Morgan - crooks every one of them.
Frank
3 years ago
GWest
The wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who thought it wise to put all the money for their retirement into the stock market has drowned out the idea put forward by the same people that citizens should take responsibility for their own actions.
God forbid the "personal financial advisor" on every street corner would step up to the plate and tell everyone maybe taking advice from a 20 year old kid with 4 hours of "training" wasn't the greatest idea in the world.
But then I'm sure many don't consider a trillion dollars to prop up the investor class to be "real money".
Either that or they believe it would have just got wasted on poor people and they're not as important as propping up Joe Six-Pack's RRSP.
realisticman
3 years ago
Obama likes it
realisticman
3 years ago
Japan comes back to the top table
TOKYO – Nomura Holdings Inc., Japan's largest brokerage house, is paying $225 million for the Asian operations of bankrupt Wall Street firm Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., a person familiar with the matter said. The deal marks the latest example of how cash-rich Japanese financial companies are quickly seizing opportunities in the U.S. financial crisis to expand their presence overseas.
Nomura, which won the auction for Lehman's Asian business Monday, will be acquiring the equities and investment banking operations of Lehman across Asia, including in Japan and Australia, but won't be taking on any of Lehman's losses on its balance sheet, ...
WSJ
rangergord
3 years ago
Meltdown
The article certainly asks some relevant questions and begins to frame the issues but I agree with Cynic. Exposing the Federal Reserve and Bank of Canada for the frauds they are, issuing debt-based currency and enslaving their countries citizens with mortgage and government debt is what is needed. Allowing real estate prices to settle will cause pain for everyone but handing over taxpayer funds to prop up an overinflated economy only delays and makes the pain worse when it does come. Using taxpayer funds to fund social programs to ease the economic pain would be preferable to bailing out the fascists. For your own protection do not listen to the voices assuring us that all is well. Do what it takes to reduce debtloads now because once all this new money hits the streets your dollar will be worth less than ever as inflation takes off with a roar. It won't get any easier to pay off the debts as the dollars are sucked out of your wallet. Paying off debt more quickly requires lifestyle adjustment. Its worth it, I assure you. Solving the problems in the macro economy is possible but it will take more than tinkering. Total overhaul is required. Any overhaul will likely be designed by the powers that be rather than by the people because most people haven't got a clue about economy.
realisticman
3 years ago
Solace
WSJ
Largest one-day jump ever. Good for Alberta; and good for the rest of Canada too.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
As if that'll happen.
Good for Canada? How so? Wouldn't a lower dollar be better for Canadians that actually make things instead of digging up things?
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Unlike American right-wingers you're an advocate of foreign ownership?
Frank
3 years ago
Amy Goodman
Has an article aptly titled "Wall Street Socialists"
http://www.rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=75529
ripponfalls
3 years ago
Why is anyone surprised?
"The jaw dropping events in the U.S."
If your jaw dropped, you are getting your news and analysis from the wrong sources. For all those whose jaw did drop, this is an excellent opportunity to change your political - economic belief system. For example, did anyone catch Michael Campbell on the tube saying "Now is the time to buy stocks."???? The same guy who said that B.C.'s economy was strong enough to withstand any blips in the road? If you still listen to this clown - or his brother - you have nobody but yourself to blame when you end up eating at the soup kitchen.
I would recommend the following for their predictions of what is going to happen: Peter Schiff, Nuriel Roubini, Paul Volcker, David Walker, Jim Sinclair... but caveat emptor Just remember that when the US economy sneezes, Canada's catches cold. This time around, the US has a case of double pneumonia.
Yes, I know that experience is the only school for fools.
"If only governments these days were as committed to protecting the security of regular working folks"
You vote in conservative governments, you have nobody but yourself to blame when you get conservative policies.
"An economic downturn has already begun in Canada"
As in the United States, we would already be in a recession were the numbers not constantly being juiced by politically pressured and perhaps motivated government statisticians. Inflation and unemployment is much higher than advertised. The media is silent.
Take away the figures for Alberta, and the rest of Canada is already in a recession. Harper denies there is a problem. Does he even know if the rest of Canada exists?
John Williams of Shadow stats has documented this in the United States. Guess what! We do the same thing!
(end part 1)
ripponfalls
3 years ago
Part 2
Do you no longer qualify for benefits? Great! You're not numbered among the unemployed. Have you given up looking for work? Great! ditto. Our money supply is up over 11 percent a year. As are the prices we pay AND our unemployment is running at about that now. But you'd never know it from reading Stats Canada... and this is really a bipartisan issue: Both the Liberals and the Conservatives do it when in power.
Take away the dope trade, and the BC economy would be dried up and swinging in the wind. 8 - 9 billion a year in grow ops according to the RCMP two years ago... but I don't think Campbell will be trumpeting this in the next election.
"A better modern example is Japan"
Japan was and is a nation of savers: 15% or so of their earnings. The US has hit zero savings rate twice, and each time they decided to recalculate the way the figures are determined. And 18 years after the Kobe earthquake, the Japanese prime rate is still almost zero. The Nikkei 250, which peaked at 39000, is now at 12000. Real estate? Don't ask.
During the Great Depression, US real estate fell on average 80%. Expect similar results this time around. Don't expect any change in lumber demand in the near future.
Finally, I would like to quote a recent German minister of finance: "We cannot base an economy on cutting each others' hair". As long as consumers addicted to cheap goods are willing to outsource our manufacturing, we are headed down the road of runaway... and possibly infinite... inflation.
Buy gold and silver.
R. Smiley
garth_harris
3 years ago
crimes
we all know that crimes by the rich are paid for by the poor,
bill moyers interview with kevin philips ended the show with the list of GOLDEN PARACHUTES/HANDSHAKES
BILLIONS of BUCKS fer WELL DRESSED CROOKS
what is really to be said about the state of the ECONOMIES ,when in truth, they are all false from the word go.
economics is nothing but BULL$HIT SOLD TO THE LITTLE PEOPLE.
the CARPETBAGGERS win AGAIN and they will never lose , cause you buy into the society that sells this crap in the first place,you put these creeps in power and then let then dictate airy fairy nonsense,til the bubble bursts and your left holding the bag.
no golden parachute or handshake fer you buddy,get back 2 work and kill off my debts cause,like,i just won't be able to sleep tonight in my mansion overlooking acres of lush vegetation that your children will never get to play in.
c mon , get movin !
can you say Campbell goes Hawiian ?
from the minute you get up ,til the moment your head hits the sack , you/we are being plundered by the bullsh!t of economics.
ripponfalls
3 years ago
To the Moderator
You might consider having your standards for censorship posted.
I posted what I did because most of your readers have absolutely no idea what is coming. As David Walker, former comptroller general of the United States stressed, "A financial tsunami is coming ashore, and people are still partying on the beaches."
The fact that this may not reflect your personal opinion is really irrelevant.
Yes, Michael Campbell did say "Now is the time to buy stocks". This lead me to question his competence. Anyone taking his advice is going to regret it for the rest of their lives.
ripponfalls
3 years ago
Oops. Sorry. The post didn't appear... so I thought...
please accept my humble apologies
Dr Alexander
3 years ago
Ripponfalls: With regards to Michael Campbell, I with you
Actually, I listen to his program on Saturdays when I am wrenching on the car or tooling around the house because it is not a waste of my time then.
In fact, I am completely fascinated how such a guy, who was, in fact successfully sued by his colleagues at Equity Magazine, can maintain a "serious business" program and yet be so (expletive) lacking in real acumen. His guests and regular contributors are cheerleaders and the program is more of an "infomercial" than anything else.
I mean, every flippin' week you can count on a "buy Phoenix properties" segment. I would not be surprised if Tom Vu makes an appearance on the program.
BTW, my financial adviser indicates that everyone in the game in Vancouver considers Michael's insight and advice the sort of thing that gets treated at Annacis Island.
lynn
3 years ago
Meltdown and Monopoly
Makes me wonder if the change in timing of the Canadian election had less to do with what was happening inside Canada and more to do with what Harper knew was about to happen in the US.
Fish-counter
3 years ago
Deja Vu all over again
Twenty years ago, North American banks loaned unsecured funds to South America and lost their shirts. Interest rates in Canada shot up to 20% and more.
It seems like yesterday that Enron collapsed in on its own bubble of "creative" inflationary accounting. The executives created funds through fraudulent book-keeping to inflate their own performance bonuses. That was defintely illegal, so they jailed Martha Stewart.
For the last couple of years, American banks have been doing to the financial world what the U.S. military has been doing to Iraq by puking money to unsecured mortgagees. It is the banking equivalent of institutionalised rape.
It works as long as house prices keep spiralling upwards, but not when they stall or tumble.
Simple solution; let heads roll in New York. Sure, bail out the culprits to keep the banking world afloat, but let's see blood on the pavement in Wall Street. Otherwise, the rats who run the treadmill will keep bleeding it dry.
My bet is that it will all fall apart in November anyway. Bush will execute a Scorched Earth policy on his successor, regardless of who it is. That little b*st*rd hasn't finished loading his rettirement fund yet.
Grumpy
3 years ago
If there wasn't enough proof...........
.........that the free market/free enterprise (US version) is as much as an aberration as Soviet/Maoist style communism, the up coming financial fiasco will seal its fate.
What has happened in the USA is more of a right wing biblical fairytale, a la Hollywood, all fiction with a wee bit of truth. Free enterprise is dead, as dead a s Marley's ghost, but the neocon elites who run our little police state would never have us learn the truth.
Just wait, the fun hasn't yet begun - the stock market will soon make like going to a casino, good business acumen!
Per contra
3 years ago
Fair? Article
Canada needs a plan, too
But it is not spend spend spend. With an unemployment rate of 6.1% why start major public works that will be competing for the little skilled labour we still have available. Would it not be better to reduce spending to decrease the tax burden on the middle income people who bought houses that were over valued to start with. If there is a full scale correction and unemployment, then we will get better value for those projects when wages have dropped due to more trade people being available.
As for climate change projects spending, that would be the worst waste of money possible, but that is a different topic and it is a self-correcting problem anyway.
So Harper, don't spend my money please and don't bail out people that spend way to much for houses that were not worth it. This is what market corrections are for, some lose their homes, and other people that were waiting move in.
As for the US meltdown, it is ironic that a right wing government is acting more like a lefty government. But I don't know anyone that thinks Bush(Junior) is normal.
farmboy
3 years ago
Jeez, no fault capitalism.
Jeez, no fault capitalism. Now there's an idea you can take to the bank
doggone
3 years ago
Finally Thetyee notices melt
I've been ignoring this site for the last week or so - check if there is any mention of the meltdown and since there was nothing I moved on to places that did take an interest.
There is no bigger news nor concern just now - Harper or Doin - who cares?
Yesterday (actually some years ago) the "Wall Street" Economy oxymoron fell apart and while it ran on empty we boneheads took it fairly seriously and thought to ourselves: "Jeez! I wish I'd bought in to GVRealestate a few years ago".
If it looks like fantasy and walks like fantasy there is usually a good chance it is such.
Now what?
I'm attempting to gather my "Best Beloveds" closer together so we do not need to travel and worry so much.
"Vancouver, Vancouver This is it!"
Anyone know where that Quotew came from?
doggone
3 years ago
Mt. St. Hellens Major Eruption
The Radio call was to Vancouver Washington from one of the Observors.
He got blowed away
Real good!
doggone
3 years ago
Mt. St. Hellens Major Eruption
The Radio call was to Vancouver Washington from one of the Observors.
He got blowed away
Real good!
ME2
3 years ago
Bad times are coming for us wannabe Yankees.
The question I haven't seen asked and so not answered is....."How can the US Treasury back up bad debt when it itself is so knee deep in debt the world is switching to the Euro as the world's common currency?"
If the US dollar is rapidly becoming worthless, and if the US internal economy so badly damaged that it is unlikely to be able to pay off the debt, who's going to be willing to accept the US Dollar as collateral?
I think the ONLY thing stopping a complete US meltdown is the fear of MAD, and it is now only a matter of the time before the others figure out how to divvy up their losses between them. Then they'll dump the US Dollar along with all the increasingly worthless US Treasury Bonds they've been stuck with.
I don't think Harper / Dion will be willing to keep us from going down with the US ship.
Grumpy
3 years ago
But if we go down in the ...............
.......... US Titanic, rest assured that Captain Bush and his crew and 1st class passengers Dion, Harper and their ilk will be first into the financial lifeboats. The rest who are in steerage will go down with the ship - after paying full fair!
doggone
3 years ago
Seeing red
DJIA just slipped back into the negative for today. It looks like investors do not expect the "blind leading the blind" approach to financial rescue will work.
China has no faith either - last I looked the main indicies were down 1.6%.
Fidel has a bit of perspective on this:
Google Granma "reflections of comrade Fidel"
Meantime I'm moving my investment advice office to the lower floor so when I have to jump out the window it won't hurt so much
garth_harris
3 years ago
the funniest thing
no fault capitalism
that has got to be the funniest thing i have heard in these days of serious faces talking VOODO ECONOMICS on the boob tube
every time that phrase runs thru my mind i giggle
no fault capitalism
oh ! thats gonna keep my tiny mind amused fer some time,i cannot stop laughing !
doggone
3 years ago
Remember this date
When we could still make jokes about "the ecomomy".
Something serious is going on (down) here:
Even the US Congress is having trouble choking this proposed "bailout" down.
Some rumblings from the "unwashed" seem to be percolating upwards. (Not in Canada, though)
Lessee: We get Harper fairly soon running on "business as special to me" shaky platform and virtually no one else.
Meantime the "money" simply rides over the horizon and the credits roll.
The goofy movie is over
I'm gonna have a pee and get some sleep
YerMomma
3 years ago
We are totally scrwed
RealisticMan said:
'Largest one-day jump ever. Good for Alberta; and good for the rest of Canada too.'
Nope. We don't own our resources anymore. Big oil will only adjust their prices for inflation - the average Canadian will be just as screwed. We need change, and the only offer on the table is the NDP.
http://www.ndp.ca/
...
ME2
3 years ago
Any more is redundant
Yer right, Garth. "No fault Capitalism" says it all.
realisticman
3 years ago
Someone's mommy
Not at all true, of course. Do you have any idea how much money Canada's treasury benefits from resource royalties? Or are you just saying that to be cute?
That's royalties on extracting resources from Canadian (owned) sources.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OJX/is_3_28/ai_n25080419
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Which are piddly. Wanting the money is why many countries have nationalized their oil industries.
In Canada we don't want the money. We're happy to take the temporary jobs working for foreign companies instead and getting a few bucks in royalties to boot.
Same as our logging industry. With the eventual same end-result.
spark.1234
3 years ago
welcome to hyper inflation
A lot of people saw this disaster coming. But what must must must be understood is that it was created on purpose.
If anyone would like to know why this collapse was engineered (IMF and World Bank documents available), infowars.com is a good place to go.
A Hegelian dielectic was created, i.e. a problem was engineered to elicit a predifined reaction, to which a solution is offered. The solution which will no doubt be offered to this nightmare scenario, is the creation of the 'Amero' - the new currency for the North American Union. It will be the 'only way' we can avoid total economic collapse they will tell us.
But before you lap it up, a good film to watch is "End of Nations: EU Takeover & Lisbon Treaty" (google video) - see just what kind of dictatorship we're in for when the North American Union is introduced.
I hope everyone who is anywhere near retirement age is shifting their investments into another currency, because Canada is printing money like no tomorrow which is going to translate directly into inflation.
realisticman
3 years ago
Piddly, Frank?
You must wheel and deal in some helluva big league Frank, if you think that 12 bil and change is piddly - and that's just one province. As we know, the Federal royalty take is even more.
You keep going back to that foreign companies thing. I remember no comment from the NDP when MacBlo was sold and I was surprised. Am I wrong?
anne cameron
3 years ago
excuse me
Harper speaks soothingly, assures us our banking system is different, and therefore we won't be hit as hard...CamBull and little Bro smile, smile, and each time they open their mouths the sheepshite flows...you'd think this "meltdown" came off the wall out of nowhere...excuse me but has anybody noticed our branch plant economy and mentality have already impacted...timber, fishing, mining, agriculture, auto industry, airlines and the manufacturing sector have been dealt dreadful body blows...
fer krissakes, what's left to lose?
It's not that we are going to take a dreadful hit, it's that we're already taking it.
Almost unnoticed in the rah rah about the american election and our own boring replay is that the Fraser River sockeye run is a disaster...
Your grocery bill is probably one-third higher than it was six months ago...what more proof do you need? The food banks are running out of food...
WAKE UP! You've been had, you are being had and you will be had again.
Ed Deak, please, respond to these dozers! You make more sense than all the rest put together.
realisticman
3 years ago
annie, annie
Many posters have said for a long time that food is too cheap! Even Ed Deak has said that he can't get a decent price for his beef because of cheap competitors.
spark.1234
3 years ago
realistic man
Inflation of prices because of currency devaluation and speculation does not equate to higher profits for producers.
realisticman
3 years ago
spark
True enough - but,
Daily and weekly momentum indicators such as the stochastic oscillator and Goldman's ``Trend Strength'' charts are both ``bearish,'' Edgeley wrote in a research note yesterday. ``There is scope for further extension toward the potential trend line support from February around C$1.0000.''
Canada dollar doing better!
Latest closing: (23/09/2008) - $1.0363
High (11/09/2008) - $1.0765
Low (06/11/2007) - $0.9215
Rates equal the price of 1 U.S. dollar, in Canadian dollars.
http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/rates/can_us_close.html
spark.1234
3 years ago
realistic man
That's like saying our ship is sinking not as fast as yours!
how about Canadian dollar vs. Euro?
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=CAD&to=EUR&amt=1&t=1y
When the US goes down the pan, and it will, bailout or not (Crash Proof by Peter Schiff is an excellent book to read)... our economy will be hit hard because they are our biggest customer. In a couple of years though, we will do a lot better than the States because the rest of the world, especially China will become much richer since they no longer have to subsidize the US's deficit spending by purchasing US treasuries. China will become the biggest consumer nation and we will become one of their resource countries.
spark.1234
3 years ago
anne cameron
Please keep your offensive comments to yourself.
Are you out protesting? I would suggest it's you that has been had - thinking that preaching to a Tyee chat forum is useful compared to getting out on the streets to voice your disdain.
G West
3 years ago
The fact of the matter is
That if the US dollar loses its status as the world exchange currency all the chickens of American debt financed by worthless paper is going to come home to roost in a helluva a hurry.
Several folks on these threads have been telling people like you realisticman that this was coming for months.
You're still pooh-pooing and pretending everything is okay.
Even the idiots in the US Congress realize they're in a double bind...and the only answer they have is more useless corporate welfare.
The folks who've been losing their houses at the rate of 8 - 10 thousand per month in the US deserve a lot more sympathy than the idiots who created this mess...and they're not very likely to get anything more than that.
Unlike the local idiot who headed up BC Lotteries, got fired - in my view for cause - and still collected almost a million in severance in 2007. It's time for working people to start nailing a Charter on some doors.
Things are going to be bad or worse in this province as they are anywhere in the States.
spark.1234
3 years ago
G West
alright G West, we'll leave the global warming out of this - we agree on this one.
China is threatening to reduce America's credit rating to BBB from AAA, which would bankrupt the country overnight. The way I see it is if this $700B is approved (and by the way it is actually a $700B hedge fund that can be used repeatedly as different securities are bought and sold, with no checks and balances, no congressional oversight, and no recourse in a court of law), China will derate the US to BBB, and if it is not approved, the dollar will collapse anyway.
The financial system is screwed if they do and screwed if they don't, but the taxpayer is doubly screwed if the payment is made to the financial industry. Bare in mind that Hanky Panky Paulson is on loan from Goldman Sachs... and he is the one who will direct this $700B hedge fund with no oversight whatsoever!!!... in what way is this not 100% FACISM?!!!
Watch out, here come the North American Union!
spark.1234
3 years ago
it's worth remembering...
that Canada has a $500B deficit.
spark.1234
3 years ago
wow
Even the Bull-S**t mainstream media are reporting on Canada's economy now...
"Canada could be headed for mortgage meltdown, says Merrill Lynch Canada"
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iZKecWf3E7uf4utai070ArlP703g
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
You must wheel and deal in some helluva big league Frank, if you think that 12 bil and change is piddly - and that's just one province. As we know, the Federal royalty take is even more.
12 billion? Have you checked the size of the Canadian economy? I think Leaf fans spend more than 12 billion on season tickets.
Since we keep hearing that Canada has as much oil as Saudi Arabia, let's look at what they get shall we?
And from Wikipedia :
Seems they make more money than Canada does. Plus, Canadians pay foreign-owned companies world price when they fill up (although you'd like that to be pumped up 7.5 cents higher via the Liberal carbon-tax) unlike Saudi Arabia.
Looking at Abu Dhabi, they do pretty well off their oil too.
A government-owned energy company of one of those emirates, Abu Dhabi, said yesterday it has struck a $5-billon deal to take over Calgary-based PrimeWest Energy Trust. Abu Dhabi, the largest and wealthiest of the seven affiliated emirates, has the world's largest state-owned investment fund, and is flexing its financial muscles around the world, though its activities are cloaked in secrecy.
Abu Dhabi Investment Authority is estimated to have assets as high as $875-billion (U.S.)
Seems to me like other oil producers would look at 12 billion a year as being piddly.
Frank
3 years ago
spark.1234
debt, not deficit, although the Tories seem intent on giving us one if they haven't already
spark.1234
3 years ago
ok debt
freudian slip...
Harper's token $10B gesture to pay off some of this debt is not great, but better than the US to be sure.
But we still pay $33B in interest to private bankers on that debt each year. Nearly 3 times the oil revenue, according to Realisticman.
alive
3 years ago
"Corporate Welfare Bums"
Why is it that everyone seem surprised that this economic system is about to collapse?
Anyone who ever played the boardgame "Monopoly" will realize the eventually there will only be one player left!
The rest are loosers.
This is not just a matter of crooked financial institutions, but about the entire system!
The only solution that will clear up this mess is a proper revolution and a democratic distribution of wealth.
Where is NDP's old slogan about "Corporate Welfare Bums", these days? it is more approrpiate now, whan ever!
spark.1234
3 years ago
Quote:Why is it that
Is everyone surprised? Speak for yourself, there are many people in this forum who are not surprised at all.
G West
3 years ago
one guy IS surprised spark.1234
Little George Bush.
On the 15th of September he said the economy was strong and no way would there be a bail out....
Today, 24 September, the whole economy is in danger and he's urging everyone to bail quickly or else.
If this weren't so friggin' sad and pathetic, it would be hilarious.
spark.1234
3 years ago
and today...
On the 24th September, Harper said, "a collapse like the one occurring in the U.S. simply won't happen.", "Canada's economy is still one of the most robust among industrialized, Western nations."
We'll see...
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
This figure is Alberta Royalties, not Revenue. The figures you quote are revenues and the ones I quote are just the royalties, for one province. There is a big difference.
As for China downgrading the US, well, that might happen but remember that China holds a huge amount of US debt and if the US $ is devalued then the debt owed to China will be worth less. China doesn't want that.
If a bailout in the US does come then the US government and thereby US taxpayers will be buying mortgage securities at a bargain price, the same as the US government bought AIG at a bargain price.
Progressives should be pleased that a bail-out is planned since without it many companies that use the daily cash supply to run their businesses and pay their employees will go bankrupt and that will mean huge job losses for working men and women who have to feed their families. The state taking such a huge equity position is distinctly socialistic too.
Note that Warren Buffet has moved into a big equity position at Goldman Sachs buying $5 billion of it's stock (incidentally Buffet has already made $783 million on that deal and it's not yet 24hrs old!). Yesterday Goldman raised $10 billion in new equity without any trouble.
Canada will be affected by the turmoil in our best customers' financing system but the worthless mortgage packages were 82% owned by US based financial institutions. The remaining 18% were sold around the world with half going to the Caymans. The Canadian banking system is little affected.
If there's any crash in real-estate prices in BC I would have thought to hear that this was a good thing since we're constantly told that housing is priced too high here. Could be some bargains available in Vancouver; as long as interest rates don't climb too much.
Very dangerous times but not quite the end of life as we know it.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Your day job is Public Relations isn't it? For the past year you've been telling there wouldn't be a downturn, let alone a recession, now that we're in one you're telling us we should enjoy it, its actually a good thing.
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
There are always ups and downs Frank. Both can be 'enjoyed', as you put it. There are always opportunities. As for good, or not, that's to be decided by those that write the history. I'll be somewhat surprised if many posters on this site do not express happiness as real-estate values in Vancouver decline.
spark.1234
3 years ago
Quote:As for China
Obviously there's a break even point where it's better to dump the dollar and temporarily hurt their own economy. They reported it in their state controlled newspaper.
Couldn't disagree with you more. If there was a buck to be made, don't you think the market would have snapped them up?? FYI, Paulson is arranging to buy them AT THE FUTURE RESALE VALUE - i.e. pay what he thinks they will be able to be sold for in the future. There is no profit to be made for the taxpayer, so please don't make it sound like a bargain, you're insulting the taxpayer. Furthermore - do you really think the taxpayer would see any profit if there were any? The $700B fund that Paulson has proposed can be used repeatedly with no oversight - i.e. it will exist forever and it will be a state run hedge fund.
The US crash was not about mortgages - it was about overlevaraged debt institutions tenuously based on mortgage value. It was a ponzi scheme, a pyramid scheme, a Nigerian email scam... The total mortgage debt in the US is only $100B!!!! So why the $5 trillion bailout (Bloomberg)???
It's about time that the remaining people who still believe the corporate controlled newspapers get their head out of the sand.
G West
3 years ago
Ponzi schemes
Very well put spark.1234 The fact of the matter is that the US economy has been living on borrowed time since the 1970s...when Nixon depegged it from any real reference value outside the US treasury.
And we saw, in that little public exhibition of Bush in the headlights last night, exactly what that 'reference' is worth on today's devalued currency.
Did you happen to see letterman eviscerate John McCain for 10 minutes last night?
Check it out on Youtube if you have a moment...
spark.1234
3 years ago
just checked out Letterman.
just checked out Letterman. Sounds like McCain got what he deserved.
Interesting that he has put the campaign on hold. I wonder if this is a precursor to the invocation of the John Warner defense authorisation act, PDD 51 and Rex 84 to dissolve congress in times of 'national emergency'. Just thinking out loud.
realisticman
3 years ago
correction
They didn't buy AIG, they lent them money - with serious conditions.
Real-estate bubbles are bursting all over. Ireland, Denmark, etc.
http://www.ft.com
spark.1234
3 years ago
realisticman
was that supposed to be a retort?
Frank
3 years ago
spark.1234
Where'd you get that number? The median price of a house right now in the US is about $200,000.
Assuming that's mortgaged to the hilt that's only 500,000 mortgages out of a population of 300 million.
That $100 billion number must be something else.
Frank
3 years ago
spark.1234
In his way, yes. Skirting the issue is his forte. You get used to it.
spark.1234
3 years ago
Frank
Off a radio show this morning. I just looked at the stats and you're right, it's not right. I'll see if I can find out what they meant. Either way, the banking institutions took the mortgage debt, re-packaged it and leveraged it out multiple times in a ponzi scheme.
Frank
3 years ago
spark.1234
Yep, and they won't help homeowners because that would be socialism, but they'll help banks and corporations because... because... because, well, that's different somehow.
Fact is the little guy's money is always going to help the upper crust, this time its just a little more blatant.
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
I could take that as offensive Frank. Some of us don't collect a salary form one place yet spend all our time posting on Tyee, etc. Some people have to work to pay the taxes to support all those that live off the state. As to skirting Frank. Let's not forget that you wrote figures that were based on total receipts for oil producers in response to figures I quoted that were specifically only for Alberta royalties. No word from you on that. Were you skirting there?
As for this idea that the "upper crust" will not be hurt and helping homeowners will not happen because that would be "socialism", it was exactly that that started the mess. It went out of control but it started as a scheme, under President Carter as the Community Reinvestment Act a "United States federal law that requires banks and thrifts to offer credit throughout their entire market area and prohibits them from targeting only wealthier neighborhoods with their services, a practice known as "redlining." The purpose of the CRA is to provide credit, including home ownership opportunities to underserved populations and commercial loans to small businesses."
At its outset only one banker supported the risky scheme to lend money to people that might not be able to pay it back. Now we see what has happened.
I never thought I'd defend George Bush but he did try and rein in this dangerous practice 10 years ago and both parties resisted that.
This well-intended socialistic scheme will probably become text-book material and reiterate that dictum that you shouldn't lend money to people that probably cannot repay it.
Wall Street bastardized the whole system with ever more abstract derivatives but the genesis of the programme is back in the days of left-leaning forced compassion to the poor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
Frank
3 years ago
"realistic"-man
You never argued it. By all means post what Canada's direct revenue is from oil. Why should I look up your arguments for you? Are times so tough that you have to work 3 jobs and can't find time to google links to support your own argument?
If you're going to come on here pleading that you work too hard and therefore don't have the time to respond to people's actual arguments I have to ask why you come on at all.
You're joking right? You're blaming the current crisis on a small gov't scheme from the 1970's to help first-time buyers?
So if Canada implodes I guess you'll blame Harper for his new little scheme to help first-time buyers?
That's a fascinating argument. Blame the average guy for the meltdown and then demand 700 billion of his money to help the poor banks that were "forced" to give them money.
With intricate arguments like that I can't understand why Bush hasn't flown you to the White House for consultations. Or did he ask but you told him you were too busy?
Frank
3 years ago
Shooting fish in a barrel
Guess the FBI hasn't got the memo that the banks were forced by the gov't to give bad loans.
...FBI Director Robert Mueller told the US Congress last week that 24 cases of potential corporate fraud were under investigation, up from 21 disclosed by the bureau in July. In testimony before the House of Representatives Judiciary Committee, the FBI chief also vowed to pursue corporate executives if necessary in mortgage fraud cases. Mr Mueller said the FBI was looking at all levels of the mortgage systems. With respect to the corporate probes, which could result in federal charges, “the allegations would be there were misstatements of assets,” he said.
Or there's this piece in the Globe too
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/GAM.20080924.BANKSWASHINGTON24/TPStory/TPComment
Still can't find anything that might say the Wall Street executives were also "forced" to pay themselves hundreds of millions in commissions and bonuses for doing what realisticman calls charity work.
realisticman
3 years ago
Frank
As I've written before, Wall Street bastardized the mortgage market and came up with ever creative and abstract 'vehicles'. In many cases obscene salaries and commissions were paid. However, where and why did this happen and, importantly, how was it allowed to happen and where did this practice come from?
A little digging tells us much and the facts should not be ignored just because we may not like someone, some group of bankers or someone in charge. If anyone is really interested in finding the origin of this mess then a bit of research is better than quickly pointing fingers.
I wouldn't recommend putting all your trust, Frank, in governmental policing agencies either.
ME2
3 years ago
Frank
Well, Frank, we already know what RMan's response to that will be, eh? It's obvious - The FBI has been infiltrated by them damn Socialists......etc.
ME2
3 years ago
Just too slow
Shit, he beat me to it - and surprised us all.
G West
3 years ago
Facts and Lies
Some of us don't collect a salary form one place yet spend all our time posting on Tyee,...
That sure sounds personal to me my friend - Frank criticized your 'style' of argumentation - not your lifestyle or your job...and yet you feel perfectly comfortable with that kind of a drive-by shooting. I call BS on you:
Far as I know just about everybody posts anonymously here - assumptions about where and how much people work (or don't) are illegitimate - or worse, they’re simply an attempt to avoid actually confronting your own prejudices…
You seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is a salary man...you might be surprised exactly how wrong you are.
But, even if you were right - it wouldn't prove a damn thing would it?
Fact of the matter is, every right winger in this country and the united states has been crowing with pride about the economy and how it rewarded 'initiative' what it really rewarded was waste, greed and lies - a mess which started with Richard Nixon and another American foreign war - blaming the beginning of this criminality on Jimmy Carter is absurd - but not untypical of the kind of lies the right lives on these days.
Globalizing free-market frenzied Hyack cum Ayn Rand cum Greenspan garbage has run its course – God knows it has hurt too many people already.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
I don't think that's in doubt. It seems clear this is the result of deregulation. The constraints created in the wake of the Great Depression were cast aside and the morals of a frat-boy kegger were given full reign.
Nor should self-policing be the answer as we've had that and its failed everywhere from the financial system to meat inspection.
realisticman
3 years ago
Worth Consideration
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2008/09/24/wall-street-crisis-stephen-schwarzman-explains-it-all/?mod=sp_deals
realisticman
3 years ago
West
I'd be surprised if Frank were in need of someone else's interpretation of whether or not it was he I was referring to. Of course, I was not referring to anyone in particular and I find Frank to be generally be a thoughtful and reasonable debater. He sniped at me there and in general that's not entirely unfair but at that time I had lots of work to do and could not reply to spark.1234's comment in any detail.
We know you two guys are real close but Frank can take care of himself.
Is this of no interest?:
Here’s the lead of a New York Times story on Sept. 11, 2003: “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.”
Bush tried to act. Who stopped him? Congress, especially Democrats with their deep financial and patronage ties to the two government-sponsored enterprises, Fannie and Freddie.
“These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Rep. Barney Frank, then ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
G West
3 years ago
That's just special
You seem confused.
I blame the whole American sponsored Globalized free-market BS for this problem – not just Bush or his predecessor Clinton – who was, as a matter of fact, almost as bad.
He and the older Bush took what should have been a bonus for world and local development from the end of the cold war and let American and international ‘business’ squander it on their idol worship of the bottom line and quarterly profits.
Republicans and Democrats aren’t really very different from the Liberals and Conservatives here in Canada who’ve managed to create a system where the average Canadian has lost ground in the past 30 odd years.
If you don’t know that by now, you haven’t been paying attention.
As for your little tale from 2003 – would it be unfair to remind you about what Alan Greenspan was saying about housing bubbles at about the same time and what his successor has been saying until almost the present day:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602255.html
As for Fannie and Freddy – they were simply the instrument the ‘masters of the universe’ the right wing has been worshipping since Ronald Reagan’s time used to steal from the American middle and working classes.
As for Frank, he’s much more polite than I am – I prefer calling a spade a spade.
The fact is that the system certain people on this forum have denied was in trouble and heading for a crisis is now in need of about a trillion devalued US dollars in life support.
He and I, among others, have been writing about what was coming for months here at Tyee. I can understand why someone on the other side of that debate for all that time might be feeling a little queasy just now.
G West
3 years ago
Clarification for realisticman
Perhaps I should have quoted a bit more of the passage I was referring to.
Although Frank is the only one mentioned, I'd suggest your own views are a lot more general, pejorative and marginally offensive and personal than that.
Let's have another look at what you wrote:
I could take that as offensive Frank. Some of us don't collect a salary form one place yet spend all our time posting on Tyee, etc. Some people have to work to pay the taxes to support all those that live off the state.
I think the implication is pretty clear...whether Frank had decided to hit the 'offensive' button on you is up to him - I didn't bother.
Perhaps I should have. I find your style tends to the personal a lot and I think your arguments suffer because of it.
A little advice from a friend...
Have a nice weekend - I'll be working.
realisticman
3 years ago
GWest
As I've said before, you have to go back further, much further, before the word globalization was coined and before the Presidents you don't like were in office.
Initially, Fannie Mae operated like a national savings and loan, allowing local banks to charge low interest rates on mortgages for the benefit of the home buyer. This lead to the development of what is now known as the secondary mortgage market. Within the secondary mortgage market, companies such as Fannie Mae are able to borrow money from foreign investors at low interest rates because of the financial support that they receive from the U.S. Government. It is this ability to borrow at low rates that allows Fannie Mae to provide fixed interest rate mortgages with low down payments to home buyers. Fannie Mae makes a profit from the difference between the interest rates homeowners pay and foreign lenders charge.
http://hnn.us/articles/1849.html
Anyone who thinks that this policy was unwise is expressing a conservative view because this was a liberal (US Democrat) government policy.
realisticman
3 years ago
Guidelines from GWest
who writes lines like this:
and this;
I guess you don't get personal do you?
G West
3 years ago
No. I don't
I react when other people say things about me, or which could be taken to be about me, which are personal, unfounded and, frankly, slanderous.
You started this with your statement - I just countered. Which is, I think, pretty much par for the course.
Stick to making your case and don't assume you know anything about any anonymous posters.
The impication that salary men or women are somehow lesser forms of life was yours, not mine.
G West
3 years ago
And again, Fannie and Freddie aren't the problem
Dishonest management, lies, International finance, decades of deficits supported by bs and the the printing press of the US treasury are - globalization and phony free market orthodoxy are just another part of a system that isn't helping any but the upper echelons of the US, Canada and the rest of the world.
realisticman
3 years ago
Excuuuuuse me
Did Geoff give you a gig?
Another stretched leap into your abyss.
The Blue-eyed Salaryman: From World Traveller to Lifer at Mitsubishi by Niall Murtagh (Author), worth a read too.
G West
3 years ago
I disagree
YOU made the comments.
The implication and the inherent contempt were clear.
As they've been from the first time you assumed the role here of self-appointed grammarian in chief. Which, I see from the above, you're still up to.
Weak! and completely off subject - as is the rest of your current contribution.
Let me know when you've dug the hole deep enough and I'll throw you a line.
If you can't make a case for corporate welfare, so be it. Maybe you should check out the British financial papers - or Sarko's recent statements about 'reforming' capitalism and forget about who you 'imagine' is behind the anon wall here.
Frank
3 years ago
realisticman
Anyhoo, is this the narrative the Right will be pushing? That the crisis was caused by gov't intervention in the market?
Isn't that line getting a little long in the tooth?
For what its worth I have no idea why Obama and the Dems are backing Bush and Paulson on this. I liked what Paul Krugman posted on his blog :
As for the "presidents I don't like" line, I think its more like Friedman economics I don't like than it is any particular presidente. Keynes already explained the problem and the solution in his General Theory, Friedman's disciples said Keynes was wrong. But the crashes of 2008 and 1929 happened on the watch of "classical" economic theory.
Ever since you guys on the Right returned to the same economic thinking we enjoyed so much back in the days of Scrooge and Charles Dickens we've had the same old problems showing up. Yet you guys refuse to believe that, instead you blame gov't and media and "special interest groups" for pointing out these problems instead of what the Right would prefer, which is ignoring them.
If this current crash does anything I would hope it will inspire less belief in the Right-wing chant that the market is to be worshipped and that its needs should trump the needs of people. But I doubt that will happen if the narrative is going to be blame gov't. Guess we'll have to wait and see if the next crash will open your eyes. It won't be long in coming I'm sure.
spark.1234
3 years ago
Congressman Ron Paul...
...said yesterday that Greenspan and Bernanke should be criminally charged...
http://www.infowars.com/?p=4868
spark.1234
3 years ago
didn't take him long....
26th September:
"The Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, indicated Friday that the Canadian economy was at risk"
"he said the world economy is in "deep trouble."
Frank
3 years ago
Living in Egypt
That's because Taliban Steve has been in denial these many months.
Tomorrow let's hope he "discovers" poor people.
G West
3 years ago
You're right spark.1234
He's obviously marginally sharper on the uptake than George Bush...I kind of like Dubya's statement though. What was it?
...we need a rescue plan. This is -- it's hard work. Our proposal is a big proposal. And the reason it's big and substantial is because we got a big problem.
Frank
3 years ago
GWest
When I read that quote from George "Voltaire" Bush the debates of Lincoln and Douglas, and even Gladstone and Disraeli came to mind. I don't think we deserve a man of his intellect.
G West
3 years ago
For sure
As zalm would put it bwahahahahah!
They definitely have a big problem...
G West
3 years ago
What is the current score on the US debt clock?
Oh yeah....$9,853,580,204,547.96 and growing by about 2.3 billion each day for the last year.
G West
3 years ago
Now, as George Bush would put it...
That's a BIG problem!
Frank
3 years ago
BIG problem
I think Bush will make a speech today about how the debt clock poses a growing threat and that he's ordered a missile strike on it. God bless America.