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Bruce Allen's 'Shut Up and Fit In' Blast
Punish him? How?
Allen: Rant racist?
Bruce Allen is a very well known agent for such luminaries as Michael Bublé and Bryan Adams. On his CKNW radio spot, Allen railed against "special interest groups" who want "special rules," saying, "we don't need you here," and "shut up and fit in," according to a show transcript. He also said, inferentially, to Indo-Canadians, "Shut up and fit in or leave this country. There is the door. If you don't like the rules, hit it," said Allen. "We don't need you here. You have another place to go. It's called home. See ya."
Here are the questions. Was, or is, Allen a racist? Were his words racist?
If so, is there legal action to be taken? Is there any way to do so?
Ought the radio to station to be punished?
Should Allen be fired from his position with the 2010 Olympics?
What the law says
I don't believe that he is a racist nor that his words were but, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that he is and they were. Ought legal action to be taken?
The Criminal Code of Canada (terrorism laws apart) doesn't deal with "racism" but only deals with "hate" as defined as a crime under two parts of Canada's Criminal Code: sections 318 and 319. To convict anyone under the code, very specific proof is required: both of the criminal act itself, and of the intention or motivation to commit the crime. It isn't enough that someone has said something hateful or untrue; the courts will only find someone guilty if they contravened the code exactly, and if they did it deliberately. Contravening the law means hatred in word or deed which will result in inciting.
In a previous article for The Tyee I made this observation: "Section 319 (2) of the Criminal Code of Canada makes it a crime to communicate, except in private conversation, statements that willfully promote hatred against an identifiable group. The courts have had difficulty with the words 'willfully promote hatred against an identifiable group.' Surely it's not trite to point out that political parties do that all the time. So do sports fans who cheer on the local ruffian every time he provokes a fight.
It's little wonder that the courts, mandated to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, have difficulty finding guilt unless it's clear that the accused not only produced "hate" literature or words, but also intended to do specific harm to a specific group. It must be noted too that the courts have held that 'willfully' doesn't include 'recklessly.'"
Whose airwaves?
It's clear that Mr. Allen has not breached any law of Canada. (I must hasten to add that he may have run afoul of Human Rights legislation and that may be the route taken by those who object to his statements.)
Have he and the radio station breached broadcasting rules and are thus liable to penalties from the CRTC? Difficult though it is for me to defend radio station CKNW (where Allen's words were broadcast) modern science has made a mockery of rules of broadcasting. There is the tiresome argument that the airwaves belong to "the people" thus electronic providers must obey a code of conduct if they're to get and retain licenses. This is sheer nonsense. There's no more need for the state to allocate frequencies and govern the content on the electronic spectrum than there is to govern the print media because their paper comes from publicly owned trees. Besides, more and more these days, radio is not on the "airwaves."
The CRTC control leads to the ridiculous. A couple of years ago, well known veteran broadcaster Terry Moore and his station got into trouble with the CRTC because Moore interviewed a Muslim author who made grossly rude remarks about the state of Israel and Jews in general. The ridiculous part? The transcript of the show including the egregious remarks could have been printed in any newspaper in the country without any legal questions being raised.
About that VANOC gig
Here is the tough part. There is no law in this country against being a "racist," nor preaching "racism," subject to the abovementioned exceptions. Nor should there be. Racism is appalling manners and betrays a closed mind but is not a matter for the courts. While I, personally, stand four square against racism, I accept that you cannot have free speech and a free press if any speech short of incitement of violence is censored. Racism is a social issue, not a legal one.
There remains the issue of Allen's continued association with the 2010 Olympics. The question that VANOC's boss John Furlong must decide is not whether Mr. Allen's words were racist, but whether a man with those views is the sort to be involved in the opening and closing of the Games. Does his outspokenness make Mr. Allen unsuitable for his task? Is his task one of delicate relations with others rather than making outspoken and controversial statements? Can he do both?
One must assume that Allen has been invited to participate in Vanoc's task because in his stable of clients he has plenty of talent to help with the traditional hoopla at the beginning and end of the Games. If that's so, Vanoc must weigh the benefits against the shortcomings and make a decision.
One thing remains sure. If we're to have (some would say restore) free speech in this country we must all recognize that rudeness that stops short of trying to incite violence may be anti-social as hell but is not -- and should not be -- a crime.
Postscript: Premier Campbell and fish farms
Last week I wrote about the letter on fish farming signed by 18 scientists and sent to the premier and added that there was a report on fish farming's effects done by me and given to the premier at his request. I have sent another letter to the premier with the scientists' letter and my submission. I would gladly make this available to person's e-mailing a request to rafe@rafeonline.com.
Related Tyee stories:
- When Preachers Spew Hate
Calling in cops and lawyers won't affirm the cherished values Sheik Kathadra violates. - Endangered Free Speech
Eroded by 9-11 fears and anal retentive pussyfooters. - Telus Cleanses Image on YouTube
Take-down of pro-union films angers Internet speech advocates.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Grumpy
4 years ago
The tyranny of the minorities
This country has gotten so muddled with special laws for special interest groups, that free speech is near to impossible.
The Bruce Allen affair was so overblown by self important blow-hards and such, that it became a sick joke.
I do not believe in special laws for special groups, nor do I condone the current hyphenated-Canadian aspect of our immigration laws. Either you are or want to be Canadian and abide by our laws then so be it. but if you don't want to be a Canadian, just a extension of your previous country of origin, then forget it.
As yea sows, so shall yea reap; and our current immigration policies are leading us to the break up of the country.
IAMC
4 years ago
If this was a Quebec story?
Mr. Allen is a proud citizen of Vancouver. Very proud.
He has seen a lot of cultural enlightenment over the past forty years.
We enjoy the right to free speech in Canada.
Bruce didn't say any hate speech.
Our Governor General could be excused for the same kind of thinking.
That thinking possibly being that we can question ourselves about reasonable accommodation, as they are openly dealing with in Quebec, as we speak.
Melting pot or multiculturalism is the question.
I don't think that either is an evil outcome.
In fact, I don't think there is even a debate, that either side can muster, that will be able to point out a reason to discourage diversity within our accommodating society.
Frank
4 years ago
RealityCheck
Didn't Bruce post here under the handle TheRealRealityCheck? And claimed he had read a book on BC history.
Anyway, I have no idea why Bruce Allen still has a radio show. I know I haven't listened to him for years because he came empty handed to the table of ideas. Clearly nothing has changed, he's still an ignorant blowhard.
And I mean that in the best possible sense of course.
G West
4 years ago
Mr Allen
Is simply another iteration of the entitlement of the elites who run this province. He and Darren Entwhistle are both crass and thoughtless idiots who work for and with their own kind. Mistaking money and commercial success for real popularity, they think they have an understanding of the complexities of the provincial character. In fact, none of them have a single idea what the modern Canada is and what it is becoming and they cling to the 'memory' of what once was. A couple of commercial and business failures by such folks and they'll wash up like flotsam and jetsam on the beach of their fragile and self-induced 'reputations'.
Allen is the perfect person for his job, thoughtless, shallow, impressed by celebrity and his own image - an absolute match for the kind of facile exercise he's involved in.
At least he had the sense to apologize - interesting to think he might have deigned to post here at Tyee.
Thanks for that Frank...I'll watch for the realrealitycheck...
Fogotwillingate
4 years ago
Tough Guy?
Bruce Allen should be fired. I complained to the station after he called "binners" (low income recyclers) "human garbage." They defended that genocide advocacy as protected speech.
On a personal note, I recall an incident in the early eighties when Allen was begging US customs to allow him entry, even though he lacked permission to conduct commercial activity in the US. I don't know the whole story, but Allen was anything but arrogant. Frankly, he was so upset that I thought he was about to pee his pants. Real tough guy when he's behind the mike in a secure radio station. If Bryan Adams hasn't dumped Allen as manager, he should.
Frank
4 years ago
Waste of airtime
I very much doubt he'll ever come back. A forum where people will actually call him on the stupid things he says isn't good for his ego. He'll stick to his taped radio spots.
spinboydotcom
4 years ago
Bruce Allen's 'Shut Up and Fit In' Blast
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
More poetic. Less crass. Same principle.
Let's move on.
Gary
4 years ago
context
When reading in the electronic media, the initial news article on what Bruce had said I was a little taken aback at what was reported. Then the next day Mr. Allens "clarification" was printed, (probably as a correction by the MSM) and I was able to see where he was coming from. And I agree entirely with what was said.
I also am sick to death with some of the namby-pamby, do good, politically correct, whiney people in this country who attempt to get their own way or further their own causes by hollering "racist" while taking words out of context. Or not reading the full statement.
Even if I didn't like Bruce Allen, or anything about his comments in this free country,(except where the MSM controls what is printed) I would defend to the death what a person says. Mr. Allen is a thought provocer, and as such I'm sure that he himself thinks beforehand what is broadcast on his program. Reading the full text of this situation I'm sure he does.
The mainstream media has a very bad habit of NOT reporting all the facts in most cases. By their ommissions in a lot of their stories they only come out with half truths and in some cases twist everything into lies. I don't fault the reporters, I fault the editors. They have turned the two main Vancouver papers into "Enquirer" style drivel.
Rafe mentioned that their may be a case for Human Rights. On whose part Rafe? I'm sure Bruce has the right to express an opinion.
In this instance I agree wholeheartedly with the comment "There is the door.If you don't like the rules, hit it." If we were to go to another country we would have to abide by their rules.
G West
4 years ago
'Let's move on'
That sounds a lot like Furlong's mantra.
Stump
4 years ago
The Rules
Good thing the people living in the British colonies of North America circa 1776, or the Burmese in the streets today aren't as slavish to the "rules" which are ALWAYS so well thought out. Not.
No harm in coming to a country and wanting change. No harm in making exceptions to the rules where warranted.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
the elephant in the room....
So Bruce Allen uses the air waves to express his "views"....
racist or not, they certainly are targeted towards a certain group and that is racial profiling.
But the "elephant in the room' is -why is Bruce Allen on the VANOC?
He will use his position to get his clients as entertainers for the Olympics.... maybe over equally as talented performers that are not his clients.
He may not be paid for his work on VANOC but the exposure from the Olympic coverage is sure to result in even more sales, concerts etc. for his performers and more money for him.
Is this not a conflict of interest?
Working Memory
4 years ago
southdeltawalker
Yes it is a conflict of interest, and you nailed it right on the head on all counts.
James Burns
4 years ago
Ignorance
It's dinosaurs like Bruce Allen who need to shut-up and fit in. The ethnic composition of Canada is constantly changing, and in many ways it is blurring and melding as different ethnicities marry and have mixed children.
The simple fact is that integrationist policies like multiculturalism are better than assimilationist policies. Immigrants integrate usually within the first generation born in the new country. Multiculturalism doesn't slow down integration. And assimilationist policies don't speed it up. What multiculturalism does is combat, through government policy, the negative bias and dislike many Canadian natives (I'm not referring to First Nations) have toward cultural and physical difference. It reduces the impact of racism by celebrating many of the differences as equally valid as the dominant culture and ethnicity.
People often make the mistake of thinking of racism as simply the desire to actively see the destruction of a particular group. It's far more pernicious than that. It is about inculcated bias whereby people don't actively "hate" but they also don't want to work, or socially interact with those of a different ethnic group because their language, dress, body language and cultural touchstones are alien. When that bias is reflected in behavior: not hiring those who are different, treating them with a lack of respect because they are different. It is racist. And racism can unfortunately be a common behavior of every ethnic group. Some of the worst racism I've heard directed at immigrants comes from other immigrants.
Part of the difficulty with multiculturalism, however, is that people assume as policy it means a blanket acceptance of all cultural difference. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have standards of human rights that must be adhered to, and that apply to all citizens. Quite often new immigrants come from cultures where certain groups do not have equal status, either under law, or under cultural tradition. For example, where Indians are concerned many of the attitudes some of them have culturally toward women are simply unacceptable here in Canada. The same is true of many if not most immigrant attitudes toward sexual orientation, the reason being very few other cultures are as accepting of homosexuality as our culture is.
Now, if it's really these sort of latter values and rules someone like Allen is talking about, then it helps to be specific. Vague angry comments sound like blanket condemnations of entire ethnicities. Being angry is understandable but without pointing out specific incidences of negative behavior you just come off as ignorant and biased.
And you're not going to convince anyone to change by telling them to shut up and fit in. The simple fact is, far too many white people have no respect for other cultures, and that's reflected in their ignorant behavior.
Working Memory
4 years ago
If only there was a way . . .
To extrpolate . . . based on Allen's perspective, if only there was a way we could invite the world to our doorstep in 2010, take all their money and then send them back home where they belong.
Ahhh Utopia.
As Allen said, "We don't need you here. Shut up and fit in or leave this country."
It's a good thing First Nations people don't think like Allen.
Maybe he should spend more time thinking of ways to revitalize the careers of some of his clients, like Anne Murray, and less time playing the antithesis of Bob Geldof. LOL
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
hey Working Memory.....
...maybe the entertainment at the Olympics could be called
"Bruce Aid".....LOL
Working Memory
4 years ago
Stir the pot
The recipe for multiculturalism in Metro Vancouver reminds me more of Bento Box and not enough of ratatouille or hearty stew.
It is unfortunate that not more people here like what happens when you blend flavors and spices.
We need more Fusion like Vij's.
Thankfully he didn't decide to shut up and fit in.
robin
4 years ago
according to the left free
according to the left free speech only applies if they agree with what's being said. what a disgusting display of hypocrisy. are canadians really that weak that we can't listen to this blowhard and then choose to ignore him or counter his arguments if we oppose them? this is pathetic.
G West
4 years ago
Robin dear
It isn't a question of free speech - Allen's perfectly free to spout his offensive views on the radio - though for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would listen.
What's problematic is that a man of such 'character' would be employed as a 'resource' on a public enterprise such as the Olympics in the first place.
Furlong should accept his resignation and let him go quietly - then decide to move on. The public statements by Vanoc and others sound pretty much like Boston Patriot's coach Belichick ...they just want to move forward and put all this nastiness behind them...
A pretty common reaction when someone gets caught in their own mud hole.
Working Memory
4 years ago
Wrong guy for the job
Bruce Allen is the wrong guy for the 2010 ceremonies job.
At past Games, LOCAL struggling performers complain that STAR performers like Avril, BNL, or maybe Bryan Adams, and Anne Murray agree to do opening and closing ceremonies for free simply for the exposure.
Olympics organizations like VANOC argue that if established stars like Avril or Anne do it for free that all performers should do likewise.
What local taxpayers don't realize is that star performers don't actually do it for free. They invoice for expenses, and more often than not they artificially inflate their travel, hotel, food, staff, limo, security, and wardrobe costs, etc., and then bill unsuspecting taxpayers for sometimes more than they might have earned had they been paid a flat fee. (The same thing happens at telethons and in the movie biz - it's called padding production costs.)
While the stars are being paid, local buskers, acrobats, stage hands, etc. are expected to volunteer their time.
It's one thing for a young person still in school to walk the parade during the ceremonies for free. What a truly great experience!
Unfortunately, all the other performers in our region who actually make a living from entertaining are expected to do it for free too.
Click here if you'd like to see what I wrote about this topic in my book, Leverage Olympic Momentum.
It's no wonder Bruce Allen apologized when you take all this into consideration.
robin
4 years ago
his apology made his remarks
his apology made his remarks meaningless. too bad. most people agreed with them considering the examples he used to support them.
Frank
4 years ago
cknw
Elliot, are you saying you actually like to listen to his rants?
snert
4 years ago
Move on
Are they caught or do people like yourself just keep pushing them back in?
Frank
4 years ago
The why factor
Anyone know what Bruce Allen has ever done that makes his opinion on political affairs any more valid than any other Joe Blow's out there?
Frank
4 years ago
Quote:Are they caught or do
southdeltawalker, I think snert wants to make a donation to your "Bruce Aid".
I guess we do need to help Brucie out here, god knows this country doesn't have enough people living off the talent of others while telling everyone else to get a real job LOL
I can't wait till Bruce comes back here and declares he's now read a second book.
verso
4 years ago
...
It's dinosaurs like Bruce Allen who need to shut-up and fit in.
My thoughts exactly...
Working Memory
4 years ago
Shootout at the OK Corral
Whenever you see a human resources ad describing the qualities VANOC requires in a job applicant, they "always" indicate that "Olympic Spirit" be first and foremost.
Employees and volunteers must fully accept the culture covenants of Olympics organizations.
Culture is an extremely important aspect of the Olympics, to the point that it is "cult-like." You are either with them, or against them. They do not negotiate. VANOC operates under a cloak of secrecy.
Volunteers and paid workers go through very extensive culture training before they are trained to do the jobs for which they applied. If you don't pass the culture test, you don't move on.
Executives who have served Olympics organizations for a number of years have on occasion admitted that they had to be deprogrammed in order to assimilate back into normal business society.
My friends who work closely with Allen say he's fine to deal with as long as you're reasonable - and of course that he gets his own way. lol
He is strong-willed. It is one of the reasons his acts become mega stars.
However, what do you think will happen when John Furlong, following IOC orders, implements a strategy that doesn't fit Allen's sense of right or wrong?
Olympics organizations demand that their employees, volunteers, partners, and sponsors sign agreements guaranteeing to protect the reputation of the Games. Once they sign they are legally bound to do so, "even if it is to the detriment of the host community or if it goes against their personal views."
Allen is a principled man, maybe not your principles, but he does stick to his guns.
Normally, Olympics organizations do not associate with strong-willed people because they do not easily succumb to influence.
I can't understand why Allen and Furlong would want to work with each other knowing that the shootout at the OK Corral will be legendary.
Surely they don't both naively think that their infighting won't be leaked all over the internet by their underlings. When they get caught in the crossfire Olympics volunteers and workers have zero loyalty.
Citizen journalists will have a field day reporting what mainstream news media, some who are Olympics partners, won't touch.
Olympics sponsors like HBC, RBC, and NBC will have a stroke.
Eddy Haskel
4 years ago
What's the big deal? Brucey
What's the big deal? Brucey lives in a free society and can voice any dung he can muster, and the peoples he offends are more than free to utter thier outrage either percieved or real. The real issue here is should we allow Allen to become a scapegoat for everyone's weakness of building a gated network and community or should we simply find less beligerant ways to communicate with each other. I'm confident that a man of Mr. Allen's stature in this community has many indo-canuck friends who actually agree with him. I'm also confident that Bruce has many friends who believe he's just another hot air spout.
Sparkyboy
4 years ago
Female Genital Mutilation
...is just a part of the culture of a significant number of recent arrivals in Canada from...afar. We all know who I'm referring to but it would be racist of me to provide any more identifying information.I think some of them may live in Montreal.....
But they've brought their own rules with them, surely we can find some way to accommodate, who are we to judge anyway. I can hear the Gucci socialists heading for the door. Some things are too painful for them to discuss....but not nearly as painful as the barbarism inflicted on the female children of this group.
Marz
4 years ago
Bruce Allen
Any religious service that does not welcome all Canadians in a language that is understood by most Canadians is Racist and has something to hide so why should these same groups have special rights to have racially specific schools that no one else can attend or unsderstand, Why do they need racially specific bank's and racially specific driving schools, racially specific real estate agenda, racially specific businesses of so many kinds that they distribute racially specific yellow page phone books . Why does my MLA/MP's whom does not understand their language or intends dress up like them once or twice a year?
Why are these racist groups labelling Bruce Allen a racist. Hmm I dont know!
skidegate
4 years ago
Speech by Church or Potlatch rules?
Mr. Allen is judged for political insensivity. Skidegate said the same in 1884, when you set up a Colony, and divided the land; now we're over-crowded and Skidegate claims it is time to Potlatch again. Common law principles of Speech allow volatile and incendiary declarations, and these are territorial claims against others considered to be less worthy. Rafe Mair approaches the matter as a Canadian, with chorus, theorizing as citizens. We all try to find a melody that makes nice so that People will want to be like Canadians, even migrate here, and continue to welcome Canadians in their lands. The land doesn’t like too many people in one place, but governments must spread the Gospel, build the Temple, and collect tax. They also pass hate laws. When you consult law, and insult a man, you miss your chance to show what a Canadian does. Laws control speech so that violence will be diverted into the civil process and a higher Polity may mediate between antagonists, avoiding use of force by either side.The social ecology is invested in keeping order and peace on behalf of the community and thus has power of arrest. These dynamics grew from simple village principles into Cathedrals, Cities, States, and Empires, of which British Columbia is part. The prerogatives and benefits and licenses and tenures available in this Province far exceed in ecological vitality and personal liberty that in any other place on the Planet. You are the Chosen. Who wouldn’t defend this? But why not bottle and export it?
What happens as our population doubles, and other lands became more uninhabitable? We all live within a hierarchy of entitlements to the Planet and to parts of it. There is social difference between Mr. Allen and the rest of us, but there are Constitutional differences between Skidegate and Mr. Allen, and between Skidegate and Mr. Mair, and to a lessening degree between Skidegate’s rights and the rights of the rest of the Population of the Province. Skidegate doesn’t condone what Mr. Allen says, but is protected under the Constitution of Canada, and in Potlatch. Failure to recognize Skidegate’s Title leads to these kinds of confused identities; Allen is entitled to Canada in his own image, while new citizens are hurt by encountering the Colonial Master syndrome in full dress. The appropriate discussion of‘spatial’ slurs is to break them down into what is really said and what is not said. Monks in Myanmar march and demonstrate and die for Speech? Did Mr. Allen’s attitude kill Speech in Burma? What might the City-State contemplate in anticipation of the Olympics? And what is Skidegate’s Potlatch? Think about the rest of the iceberg below the surface.
OoOoo
OoooO
DPL
4 years ago
When rado guys are slumping
When rado guys are slumping in the polls it seems some of them get a bit off base looking for publicity. a once very respected news felolow was having such a career slide, and ended up in the North shore news. His claim to fame was he was in the second word war. He finally got forced of newper writing. Iy's sort of sad to see folks so much need to be heard that they say thnings most us don't want to hear. To see VANOC has hired him means that many BC folks might like what we says.
But after seeing some of the sleaze BC came up with in Europe,us as ice fishermen and guys driving around on snomobiles et al He would have to be downright awful to beat that display.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
not going to olympics
I'm not going to the Olympics. If the Olympics brings money and tourists in from other countries and provinces; great, but I'm not going to support it anymore than my misdirected tax dollars already have. I won't need to watch Allen.
Denis
4 years ago
Bruce Allen
Margaret Wente got it right in her recent column in the Globe and Mail.
How is it that a very vocal minority of special interest groups can control our law makers (politicians), law interpreters(Lawyers and Judges)(??? anymore),and steer the interpretation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in their particular direction.
Perhaps it is time that the majority of correct thinking Canadians said "enough is enough" and support Bruce Allen and all others who are saying the same thing.
"We have our traditions that we are immensely proud of, and if you wish to be part of us "fait attention". We don't wear masks, carry ceremonial daggers to school, wear turbans as part of our National Police Force uniform.
We really don't believe that you are a First Nation! Maybe 10th or more. And don't think that you are entitled to wear masks, hold all and sundry to ransom over some perceived "hurts". The Irish who were kicked out of Ireland lost their land and their past- but they came to Canada and made a new future for themselves.
Get over your past, work to repeal the Indian Act, get rid of your two tier system of Government - modern and traditional, and wake up to the fact that you are being screwed by your own system. And the rest of us should be demanding terms of responsibility and accountability attached to every tax dollar that is allocated to any Indian Band in Canada!
We expect that all who come into our country do so legally, and if some do otherwise they should be put on a plane and sent home immediately with no appeals. I suspect that all would agree that immigration appeals that go on for decades are a travesty.
Let's all demand that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms be amended to include terms related to Responsibility and Accountability. Trudeau missed these!
G West
4 years ago
Denis
Do you actually know how much of every dollar in the Department of Indian Affairs annual budget actually goes to address the very real needs of First Nations' citizens.
If you don't, I'd say you have no right to pretend you know anything about their situation or their 'rights'.
James Burns
4 years ago
Twists
They're called the elite. They're mostly white, and male. They run the larger corporations. And they have that political control because we let them own most of the wealth. It would be lovely if the wealthy had to follow a code of responsibility and accountability.
As for sparkyboy, yeah we have a pandemic of female genital mutilation here in Canada. Although it's usually called plastic surgery, specifically labiaplasty, and all kinds of wealthy women, usually white, are out there getting their genitals fixed, so they look prettier.
Skywalker
4 years ago
On Denis.
It gets worse as I don't think there is any knowledge of what happened to First Nations, how their activities were regulated by colonials after we took their land from them and moved them onto reserves. Without an acknowledgment or at least an understanding of that limiting regulation Denis' comments sound so patronizing, so 17th century.
Frank
4 years ago
Phil Hochstein
Won't be happy to hear the large-print set saying all these anti-immigrant things you know.
Nice to know that the next time Hochstein says the unions are too strong, we have a labour shortage and the answer to both is to bring in more immigrants that all you guys will be letting him know you disagree.
Gibsons Lot
4 years ago
The ongoing 'tail between the legs' style of Canadianism
"He said it; he actually said it", was the exact phrase I found myself saying .... with relief when I read the 'news' in the Metro on my regular commute.
What the heck are we doing in Canada? People arrive on the shores of the great Nation seeking ..... what? Freedom of expression; freedom of/from religion; freedom from the oppression of others and their ideals of what is right and what is wrong? What?
Enough of this grand standing, folks! Enough! I regret I have not spoken out about this ongoing 'squeaky wheel syndrom' before today - buck up! If the general populace's laws and policy requirements do not please you, or you feel in some way insulted by them, then depart to more wonderously forgiving places that embrace similar tantrums within their boundaries.
By the way things have gone of late with the 'parade of terrorists' with 'our' politicians there waving with the hope of a few more votes, with federal and provincial laws being bent to accomodate the ongoing oppression of women (the 'voting scarves' and the disregard for the imposition of polygomy to name only two), and the ongoing 'tail between the legs' style of Canadianism, the general populace be damned.
"The language that he was using - like shut up and go back, we don't need you here - who is he to tell the people we don't need you here?'' Harpreet said. "Canada is part and parcel of us. We are proud to be Canadians.''
Harpreet, you blow-hard, you've warped what was said to increase your squeak. Enough already!
James Burns
4 years ago
Leave
Gibsons Lot, all you're doing is complaining about Canadian laws and policy requirements. Your problem seems to be with laws which recognize the fact of our multicultural identity, and you can't seem to bear the fact of official Canadian multicultural policy. Take your own advice, if you don't like it: leave.
aftermath
4 years ago
The Inukshuk as a symbol for 2010
My initial reaction to Bruce Allen's comments was that they were out of place for a person purporting to represent a soirit of openness and welcome. As such, were I John Furlong, I would remove Allen's plaque from the door and recruit another more savory person for the opening/closing ceremonies.
Subsequently, we were reminded of Bruce Allen's high-handed attitude toward the First Nations - whose views, after hundreds of years of oppression might justifiably wish to get rid of Allen and his ilk - Europeans (including myself, by the way!).
In light of his remarks I think the 2010 Olympics have lost any legitimate right to use the Inukshuk as part of their advertising. Allen can't try to get rid of both newcomers and those who originally inhabited this place we now call home.
DNA
4 years ago
Rafe, you write that
Rafe, you write that "rudeness that stops short of trying to incite violence may be anti-social as hell but is not -- and should not be -- a crime..."
But what about rudeness that may not have as its intent the incitement of violence but does? Allen didn't say to the rednecks go out and attack an immigrant, but that very well could be the effect of his comments - or of his and similar comments if they become widespread.
In short, what if the "anti-social as hell' does lead to violence?
It's a difficult balance... free speech with social order.
Tom Lal
4 years ago
Allan
usually when Bruce takes off on one of this venom rants i turn off the radio. An intellectual this man is not. But now I find myself in his corner in a very embarrassing way. I did not hear him say anything overtly racist. Some may by convenience find groups they feel may fit into a mold no doubt. But what the man says has some sense to it.
It is a fact for example if you move here then you agree to comply not only with our laws but our culture and social values. This applies to any person from the middle east, England, Germany etc. If you come to my home you as a guest are expected to abide by the rules of my house. Shoes off at the door etc. if you come to Canada we have laws and values you are expected to follow as well and if you find you dont agree then please don't let the door hit you on the way out. And I would add that if you wish to commit a crime its about time our Federal government put on some boots and drop kick offenders. This is not racist as it should apply to any person who immigrates to Canada.
Many segments of society have fought long and hard for status and for laws that protect us from narrow minded and or violent groups and please feel free to use the exit door as you leave. And for those who move here and live productive lives and cherish values that we hold dear please feel free to remain as our country welcomes you...
Thats my two cents
ov
4 years ago
oh the hypocrisy
And don't forget control of the main stream media, and all the soft left media as well. For all the dirty little details, and catch them quick before this post is censored, check out this review of The Greatest Story Never Told - by Stephen Lendman.
Stump
4 years ago
shut up and fit in
So, once upon a time, suffragettes should have just stayed in the kitchen and not protested for the vote?
Hypocrisy isn't moving here and wanting change... it's being here and denying others what you already have.
snert
4 years ago
Looks good on paper
So the next time I travel on a plane I'll be carrying my ceremonial scimitar. If you don't like it then off with your heads you hypocritical bastards.
James Burns
4 years ago
Revealing
Interesting how this topic tends to reveal people's true racist colours.
Stump
4 years ago
which religion is it?
that carries a ceremonial scimitar?
Shriners?
Working Memory
4 years ago
Care to comment Mr. Allen?
I know someone asked earlier if Mr. Allen would comment on this Tyee thread, but considering the twists and turns we are taking here, I have to ask again;
Mr. Allen, would you care to comment, and maybe help us understand more clearly what you meant?
Regardless of what you read here, you are welcome. In fact that's the whole point of an online community. Everyone is welcome to comment.
clubofrome
4 years ago
Shriner faction....
Is there a radical right wing faction? Perhaps the gun carrying, meat eating, self abusing, angry arm of the Shriners?
gab
4 years ago
Who Cares…
I am surprised that these or any opinions of the likes of a Bruce Allen can create such a furor. Because this is what this type of radio is all about not so much the beliefs of the personality, they have to get the ratings. And there is an audience for this type of baboonery. It's their schtick. So if you do not like abuse, racist, idiotic ranting of an inane babbler, change channels. I understand it was radio that spurred the genocide in Rwanda.
One should question why a reasonable and for all appearances successful man say the things that Allen says, I would spend for a MIR to see if some virus or brain disfunction is occurring. Is he off his medication. I am not joking.
As for his gig with VANOC I do think he has shown that by this event his mental health is not up to the task. From VANOC position they should drop him like a hot potato, he has sullied their ability to appear to be open in the selection of Canadian talent.
bun
4 years ago
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people . . ."
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky
Allen is an idiot, and should be ignored. But alas, since he is in the "media", he won't be. So, let's just move on, nothing, and a nobody, to see here ...
snert
4 years ago
Standards
The point is that there are standards which are covered by the Charter Of Rights And Freedoms. If you wish to generalize them out of existence with you remark about being hypocritical go right ahead. My rights as a male have not come under attack of late but there appears to be several occasions where the rights of women have.
Frank Burns shows his total comprehension of the issues by his glib response to the female circumcision comment. Then there is the matter of Sharia Law where women would not be treated equally to men to Charter standards and lastly and closer to home are some of the power sharing issues that have to be established to ensure native women have the same rights as everyone else under the Charter.
If you find it hypocritical to make sure that we are all treated equally in a secular society then I guess you might wish to examine the option of leaving.
Ahhh, where to go, no place but down.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:If you find it
We all have the right to go before the courts and fight for what we believe. How does someone wearing a turban or a ceremonial dagger impinge on your rights or make you unequal before the law?
Where do you see any indication that Sharia law is going to trump the Charter?
Frank
4 years ago
communist
I find it hypocritical that someone who is not interested in equality most of the time is now wrapping himself in that flag.
Economic equality? Social equality? Equality before the law even when you don't have the resources for legal representation? Well.. then we flush equality down the toilet and tell everyone its survival of the fittest eh
snert
4 years ago
Sharia Law & Canada
Try here.
Is it hypocritical to prevent at least some portions of this law from being practised in Canada? You would say so.
snert
4 years ago
That's your suggestion, Frank
Not mine.
Frank
4 years ago
Actually it was your suggestion
So that's where you draw your line? We can have inequality everywhere in society except when it comes to Sharia Law?
G West
4 years ago
And how is this inconsistent?
Sharia ..."is a code of living that most Muslims adopt as part of their faith.
With the concept of religious freedom. As for the business of genital mutilation, it is a primarily African and not necessarily Muslim practice as I understand it. I think James Burn's comments on the similarities with various forms of vanity surgery were not that far from the mark - but then, I have no desire ro force my beliefs on anyone - unlike, apparently, Bruce Allen.
If I can't convince you logically that your point of view is archaic and, simply wrong, then I'm certainly not going to try and do it with a sword - which seems to be your suggestion snert. As far as I can tell, Bruce Allen has already apologized for his remarks. The only question remaining is why he hasn’t submitted his resignation to Vanoc. Since it appears he’s not going to the question now becomes: Why hasn’t Jack Poole told Furlong to ask for it?
snert
4 years ago
If you can't see
the inconsistencies between Sharia law and the the laws of Canada as set forth using the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a guideline then throw away your keyboard. You have become brain dead.
Frank
4 years ago
Grade 5
That's what I like about you snert, you have about 3 sentences in you before you hit the name-calling wall. All the best when you grow up.
Don't worry, as I recall it was you that said it was fine that species go extinct because evolution will give us new ones. perhaps the next "snert" will do better.
snert
4 years ago
Diversion is the name of the game.
Frank
I think you are much better at it than I am. I do try to stick to the subject even if I do interject the occasional "bon mot" as G West would have them.
Did I say that?
Frank
4 years ago
Did I say that?
You've certainly shown no interest in saying otherwise. And based on your past posts which have declared that anyone not happy and doing well financially has only themselves to blame. Which, together with your disregard for endangered species etc does lead one to believe you're a "survival of the fittest" sort.
Not true?
We've had inequality in a lot of areas before I had even heard the phrase "Sharia Law". Why no interest in fixing any of those long-term issues before we all jump on the Bruce Allan bandwagon?
snert
4 years ago
You assume an awful lot Frank
BTW Grumpy
Well put.
Des Emery
4 years ago
Bruce Allen, pro and con
Boy, everyone here likes to take things personally, don't they? Bruce lets fly a comment on air, like a pressurized fart, and people have to comment on it, one way or another. But, like the unpleasant comment itself, wending its way through the media and the blogosphere, reaction is subjective. Like a fartsmell, some ignore it, some hold their breath while willing it away, and some point their fingers.
In this case, it is well to recall that the law may be an Ass, but it grows, it grows! We have courts , not to make law, but to interpret it. Sharia has been found to conflict with existing laws and has been dis-allowed. Female genital mutilation (we call the procedure that sobriquet while its proponents see it as a necessary part of the female's station in life) is now outlawed by a new law here because none of our old laws dealt with the subject. That's also why burqua-clad women may vote; there is no provision otherwise in the voting regulations. (My wife voted in our provincial election for herself and my proxy at the same time. We had no problems with my proxy, but when she was ready to cast her own vote, the same clerk asked her to identify herself verbally again, as per regulations.)
Occasional farts are inevitable, but continuous farting needs medical intervention. Watch yourself, Bruce, or else....
zalm
4 years ago
One-way ticket
I change the channel or turn the volume off when Bruce comes on - I can't even take the minute or two he's alotted - because the sound of his knuckles dragging on the ground just sets my teeth on edge.
Doesn't mean he hasn't a right to say it, or that others don't have a right to agree with him, despite the fact they have all misunderstood the issue he's trying to address. It just makes me think the less of people like Grumpy who clearly have a brain, but forget to plug it in some mornings.
And anybody who thinks the dominant Scottish-English-Irish culture fit in when they came here can grab their haggis and Robbie Burns night, their drunken slovenly manners and working attitudes, their class-conscious union-labour relations views, their shopkeeper mentality, their cantankerousness toward anyone with a better education than they have, and any form of government, and drag that back to old Blighty, because, really, that's the attitude that's ruined (and continues to ruin to this day, Mr Allen) the best part of this continent - the peaceful, cooperative nature that other groups like Ismailis, Japanese, Kenyans, South Africans, Pennsylvania Dutch, Calvinists, and certain other Protestant reformers (or cultists, if you like, as Catholic Europe called them) brought to the natives who first welcomed them with open arms and helped them get through their first winter.
Shut up, Mr. Allen, or go home.
And to his supporters - if you think you're so numerous, not to mention right, why don't you change whatever law it is that you don't like? I'm tired of your hairy-arsed rhetoric - put up or go home. This country is for people who are working to make the world a better place.
Which means VANOC and Allen are a perfect fit. Don't let 'em divorce. If Vancouver's out to embarrass and impoverish itself, go all out! Sheesh! With a convicted drunk driver leading the parade, and Conan the Evicter speeding along carrying the torch to chase the last of the homeless out of the city, we're going to be a right proper example to the rest of the world of the "Olympic" spirit. Just like all those uncouth immigrants from old Blighty.
A pox on all your houses.
darcy.mcgee
4 years ago
Isn't the punishment obvious?
Force him to write a weekly column for the Tyee.
lemonheart
4 years ago
Bruce Allen rant
Ok- leave racism and the past out of this.
I wonder how Canadian expats in China are progressing in their prospective lobbying for english street signs and choosing to pretend that the locals don't exist? or if the canadian police recruit will be allowed to wear a toque or not.
I think this is what Allen meant.
As a Canadian, if I moved to China tomorrow I would expect NOTHING except maybe a little tolerance for my chosen predicament because I'm not arrogant enough to think that there should be any concessions or special treatment and /or changes to the law based on my decision to immigrate. I'd bet that most Chinese would have none of it anyways. Not all of course but most.
Common sense, decency, and respect for the local way of life would dictate that I ought to learn the local language and learn to read enough to get me around and perhaps enjoy the local way of life while not forgoing my roots.
Is it not odd to move to a new country and try to re-create what you had at home???? Is culture not part of the lure of a new home?
snert
4 years ago
So much for tolerance.
G West
4 years ago
OH Really! I don't think so.
You might want to try that argument on a few First Nations Canadians. I'd suggest that Canada is a bit of a different situation than China - they're busy protecting a continuous 5000 year tradition of culture and civilization while Allen and his type have been doing the best they could to wipe out the indigenous culture that was here when we arrived - and we're still at it.
And snert, I don't think anyone commenting about Bruce Allen should really bring up the question of tolerance - after all, it's his LACK OF SAME that provided the example under discussion.
snert
4 years ago
I don't think that you are any better than Bruce.
You just use different criteria to establish what you consider to be acceptable customs that should, no must, be tolerated. You're just as selective as he is yet you seem to think that it is ok to invalidate his choices while you deem yours to be the only acceptable ones.
I suspect that Bruce Allen's "LACK OF SAME" is no different than yours.
realisticman
4 years ago
Good to see that there are
Good to see that there are so many that are traditionally opposed to the Olympics now becoming involved and having strong feelings that Vancouver display itself in a welcoming and all-inclusive fashion. Much has also been written by some of these same people that recent immigrants have distorted the property market in Vancouver with either lots of money or large buildings to live in. Good to see them now defending immigrants and their differing ways. I do hope they show strong support too when next immigrants call for more discipline and more traditional education. The preposterous supposition by GWest that, " the business of genital mutilation, ... similarities with various forms of vanity surgery were not that far from the mark -", nevertheless, is terribly sad and quite ignorant, as any thinking woman will tell you. (Check Google, WHO, genital mutilation).
Bruce Allen fumbled his words and later became contrite, as he should have. He does though frequently echo what Joe Sixpack is thinking and does it in an amusing style. Many people like his energetic and succinct deliveries - even many recent immigrants.
The beauty of Canada is that all citizens can speak their mind, within limits, and they can petition the courts if they believe they have a case, which is not the case in many other countries.
Frank
4 years ago
Ignorance is bliss and contagious
I guess there's no problems at all in Canada. We're all equal and tolerant apparently, especially those that applaud Bruce Allen. They're the most tolerant of all.
Sometimes I wonder if you guys read your own posts so as to ensure it sounds the same as when it was in your head.
G West
4 years ago
Ah yes r'man
Perhaps you ought to be a little more careful.
This:
(James Burns)
Was the remark I was referring to.
I could also have made a similar reference to the religious and barbaric practice of male Circumcision as well.
I think you'll find, if you do a little more investigation, that there is a quite thriving surgical practice of female circumcision in France and other parts of the continent where there are significant African immigrant populations. Doctors there have decided, quite rightly, that providing this surgical service in a sterile and controlled setting is preferable to the alternative. Bad habits of a cultural and religious nature die hard - and are often, seemingly, replaced by equally bad habits of a narcissistic and vain nature.
You can google that too - the labiaplasty I mean.
But, since you see yourself as a caped crusader these days I expect to see you demonstrating on 41st Avenue with a large sign next Shabbat.
As for the Olympics here in Vancouver - just like the iteration that's currently gathering steam in China - I expect little of any good or lasting value to accrue in either place - certainly nothing good from Bruce Allen - despite his niggardly apology.
Frank
4 years ago
Fun with tolerance
In other words, if one tolerates intolerance but doesn't tolerate the intolerance of intolerance then one is considered to be more tolerant than those that are intolerant of intolerance?
I would say that's absurd.
Those that cheer those that are intolerant are just as intolerant as those being cheered. Trying to turn it around and say that only those who tolerate Allan's intolerance are truly tolerant is good for a chuckle though.
Frank
4 years ago
The Olympics
The only way I'll support the Olympics is if the Rightees start demanding what they demand about everything else. That it consume not a single public dollar, ie, that it be "user pay".
Since I have yet to hear that chant from the usual right-wing opinion leaders I imagine that this will be yet another taxpayer-funded circus which will then bar taxpayers from attending by demanding admission fees?
Meanwhile corporate seats will receive the usual tax breaks paid for by those not attending.
lemonheart
4 years ago
Like I said....
Gwest,
Like I said-leave the past out of it. It's 2007. I agree- my argumenmt doesn't wash when put in the historical context and we're probably on the same page on that issue.
I'm saying here and now, present day when it is acceptable to migrate to a different country. You choose to move somewhere then accept ALL that that choice includes as long as there is no restriction on freedom of speech, movement, and religion.
G West
4 years ago
But Lemonheart you're correct to avoid the past
And in my view that's the whole point. The central idea of this place as a modern state and certainly since 1982 as well as in the eyes of the courts, is that we are a multicultural nation: A diverse nation. In fact, I’d say that governments like Harper’s and Campbell’s – among others – represent the last howl of the old breed who’d like to deny that reality.
In fact, the very conception of a modern multicultural society is, in some very real way, a Canadian "invention". It is certainly viewed that way in academic circles and while it may be a 'work in progress' it has, I'd argue, achieved some very real successes.
It is, in my opinion, Allen's atavistic attempt to deny that reality (messy and imperfect though it is) which is behind his yearning for the white bread past that zalm so accurately described above us here.
Of course Allen should be free to spout his 'version' of things - but I think he should not be put in a position where his influence and 'status' has any effect whatever upon the making, shaping and evolution of public policy and the expenditure of public funds. Especially on exercises like the Olympics.
Influence must always be tempered with responsibility and in Allen's case I think he's forgotten there is a connection.
Keep the dinosaurs (animatronic and otherwise) in locations where their bumbling and stumbling will do the least harm. I'd say CKNW and pop music about covers it for him.
Working Memory
4 years ago
re Olympics Frank
... and you would be right, but in order to make it "user pay" RBC, HBC & NBC, and the rest of the sponsors like GM, Rona and McDonalds would have to pony up much more than they do now.
Who's going to break the news to them?
Maybe The Sun could do it.
Oh, I forgot, they are also making a 2010 killing off the back of our community.
Guess that just leaves you, me, and the rest of the 2 million odd in the region who hopefully will figure out before it's too late that we don't have to roll over and play dead because VANOC and the IOC say so.
Think local act global. Spread the word and let the world know what these big corporations are doing to our community.
How many here are going to volunteer for 2010?
How many here will tell their friends and neighbors who want to volunteer for the Games that playing along with their charade is harmful to our community?
How many here believe that there is a way to beat Olympics organizations at their own game?
Maybe Bruce was partly right about that tolerance thingy.
You can either tolerate it, or do something about it.
snert
4 years ago
Where do you draw the line, Frank?
Just what do you tolerate? Go ahead, stick you neck out, Frank. Take a stand. After you get finished and read your own words you will find that hypocrisy will probably role of your tongue.
You try to bury your prejudice in BS and and bafflegab but I really suspect that there are a bunch of cultural aspects that you do not wish to support. Your just too chicken to say it.
It's easy to sit back and shit on someone who doesn't believe in the same things you do. It saves having to explain yourself.
Go for it. Tell us all how you are going to cry about Bruce Allen and at the same time would support the implementation of Sharia Law in Canada and female genital mutilation plus other any other 'strange' customs that some may find unacceptable.
Like I said, tell us, just where is your line in the sand? Would you support cannibalism if it is part of some immigrants culture?
Be tolerant now, Frank.
If you don't support everything and then criticize others for not doing the same what does that make you?
Everyone has their limits, Frank. What are yours? Put up or shut up.
Disclaimer: I am not railing against Sharia Law per se but using it as an example of a belief that has portions of it that are fundamentally contrary to Canada's Charter Of Rights And Freedoms. A choice has been made to not support those particular portions of the Muslim faith that are in conflict.
ov
4 years ago
Call it what you will
but it sounds like anti-Muslim hate mongering to me. If the shoe was on the other foot and I said something like "the Jews have instigated all the major world wars in the last few centuries" my career would be ruined, if I had one, which I don't so it is safe to state that opinion. There is a racist double standard hypocrisy on these subjects.
Frank
4 years ago
snert
This from the guy always trying to beat his record for the world's shortest post?
This from the guy who says so little he cries when someone assumes they know where he stands?
This from the guy who won't say where he stands, he'll just say that I shouldn't assume anything from his tiny posts?
Which is probably why you do it here all the time isn't it? You never put forward an opinion. You simply throw out your one line drive-by smears. Trying to make everyone think you're clever without actually saying anything that people can argue with you about.
What subject exactly would you like me to pontificate on snert? All of them? My levels of intolerance are pretty high. Unlike you, I've posted enough on this board to make it pretty clear about all the things I'm intolerant of. You're probably the only person on this board that thinks I don't have enough to say.
Unlike you, I'm also intolerant of people like Bruce Allan, which you find unacceptable because he's your hero for some reason. Which makes sense, Bruce also likes to make short rants but not have to defend what he says.
I've never wrapped myself in the tolerance flag. Instead I come on here and post about all the things I'm intolerant of.
You're the one that's claiming to be tolerant of everything including racism, not me.
Frank
4 years ago
snert 2
By the way snert, stay and hash this out with me. Don't pull your usual disappearing act.
Its not the end of the world to lose an argument. Nobody here ever remembers or cares who argued what.
Your stance seems to be that Sharia Law is unacceptable in Canada and that Bruce Allan should have every right to go on the radio railing against immigrants that want to bring their customs to this country. And those of us who think Allan is a clown are intolerant of opposing views.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell right? And don;'t say again I'm assuming something incorrectly and then not say where you actually stand.
G West
4 years ago
Yeh snert
What do you actually have against Muslims? Have they been interfering with your lifestyle lately?
I'd really like to know.
village
4 years ago
About a day ago , I wrote a response to LEMONHEART... however
it evaporated .... in cyberspace. Since then... WOW!
Things have gotten interesting and heated up , I see..., ( However upon reading James Burns , Working Memory , Gwest , Frank ... and of course Zalm..., ) and many others that contributed to these discussion. I'm left perplexed by the discussions .)And at the same time fascinated by the interesting points of view from the above named contributers .
What I sense lacking ,however,is a deeper understanding of the very foundation upon which CANADA was built.., and upon which we are continuing our WORKS IN PROGRESS..
'' CONSTRUCT '' , if you will.
The quote that got my attention was initially from lemonheart*....
Common sense, decency, and respect for the local way of life would dictate that I ought to learn the local language and learn to read enough to get me around and perhaps enjoy the local way of life while not forgoing my roots.
Is it not odd to move to a new country and try to re-create what you had at home???? Is culture not part of the lure of a new home?
These questions are very astute and needs to be redirected to all CITIZENS of CANADA...,
In other words have we...,- who inhabit this land..- HAVE WE MADE AN EFFORT, IN-HOUSE so to speak , as per our major mainstream LANGUAGES of THE LAND.., and do we really have any idea*..., of what our CANADA CULTURE is really about..?
We are OURSELVES much like the immigrant that arrives on our shores... still trying to come to terms with our LANGUAGES and CULTURE.. which in turn creates for the new immigrant an open space ... as they wait for us to give them an indication that we COLLECTIVELY KNOW ... what we are talking about.. .when it comes to CANADA.
I would also submit that the answer to the questions I ask above have created the conditions that , in an interesting way, and in a MADE IN CANADA ... construct such as the one Gwest points to.. i.e. .. the world experiment resulting , is our inheritance.. , and our ongoing challenge of becoming*.
There is much to explore and discover about this HOUSE OF CANADA.., ( MIND OF CANADA also).., and through our getting to better understand/ innerstand and outerstand the ''communications matrix '' that we've inherited.., ONLY THEN..., WILL WE BE ABLE TO HELP ALL NEW IMMIGRANTS TO OUR LAND... in grasping what we really mean when we speak of CANADA as a NATION that we cherish ..
Village.
village
4 years ago
Imagine this HOUSE if you will....
Then take it's inhabitants as they stand currently.
Then , explore and discover the lack of depth and understanding of this LAND..( by it's citizens )...
No wonder so many world cultures when they arrive here .., eventually give up on our lack of getting our act together..
IDENTITY... by any other word. Thus upon seing that the inhabitants have very little knowledge nor sufficient understanding and or acceptance of their NATIONAL ( and official )LANGUAGES for the most part.., and even less consensus on what makes their CULTURE , what it is... and upon noticing a fragmented mind... Then and only then , does the conditions exist for the kind of ..., WORLD CULTURE , that attempts to fill the void of consensus in the land.
And this phenomena is interesting in it's resulting '' open identity', dimention , SUCH AS CANADA'S CULTURE and IDENTITY is..
But to take lemonheart's quote.... again:
Common sense, decency, and respect for the local way of life would dictate that I ought to learn the local language and learn to read enough to get me around and perhaps enjoy the local way of life while not forgoing my roots.
Is it not odd to move to a new country and try to re-create what you had at home???? Is culture not part of the lure of a new home?
What comes to mind...are the words ROOTS and CULTURE..,
Have we as CANADIANS forgone our very own roots.? ( or put another way have we abandonned the task at better grasping our road travelled ? ) Where are the story tellers.., that could give the definitive NARRATIVE..., ( you know the one that would not only provide clarity to each other... but especially , the narrative that would bring CLARITY of our CULTURE , LANGUAGES , and IDENTITY to the new arrivals , in this land..)
We have a long way to go.., and before we begin chastising immigrants .., as per customs , cultures and languages... SHOULD WE NOT DO OUR VERY OWN HOMEWORK, of coming to terms with what has been passed down to us.. by our ancestors.
As to our WORKS IN PROGRESS.. we are by definition the 21st Century pionneers of the CANADA of tomorrow.., ( should we be better able to integrate the many components of our population.., in an IDENTITY rediscovered..., via an understanding that every citizen of CANADA needs to get busy at getting to know better their country.
Frank
4 years ago
village
Are you saying that Canadians don't have a unified culture themselves and therefore its unrealistic to expect immigrants to adapt to a culture that doesn't yet exist?
If so, why is it that you believe we lack such a unified culture?
village
4 years ago
Land, ..... lots and lots of land.., ( a very large territory ).
Thanks for the question Frank..., and you've summed up my thoughts quite succinctly.
Why is it that I believe we lack such a unified CULTURE*... ? Firstly our collective memory being fragmented and somehow divided unto itself... comes to MIND.
Just look at this Province as an example and realise how little we understand It's beginnings.. ( and then extrapolate the many many other CANADA's -ergo PROVINCES- that are to be found and most of the time lost within this HOUSE called CANADA , due to a psychic crack in our national genetic code ).. ergo , all the provinces , having the control of EDUCATION*... creating a different memory and narrative within each of these fiefdoms...,
We are basically 10 houses and 3 territories ... without a consensual historical narrative that can UNIFY us...for the moment.
Instead we wallow in our ignorance and are quite content to remain... in that condition*..
A case in point.., is the fact that CANADA has some 400 years of history.., and the sad fact and reality is that most CANADIANS..., have no grasp of that particular earlier chapter of our collective lives.., . Celle du CANADIEN
The very foundation of the CANADA of today and tomorrow.. is built on that experience of some 400 years now.., and why do we remain a FRAGMENTED MIND...?
We simply are missing the BIG PICTURE*
We are collectively with all of the pieces of the CANADA PUZZLE.. without having any clue of that BIG PICTURE that would make the condition of unification a thing of the past..
Well plain and simple.., is the fact that to fully understand - even the history of this province- you would have to dig deep in the earliest of archives of CANADA... and as was the very first Archdiocese of this neck of the woods.., you can bet your last BEAVER*...that in effect , the language of communications by these earliest of MISSIONS and PIONEERS..., within and around the FUR TRADE ...( and by this [i]this memory , I would contend.. or it's absence thereof.., in our NARRATIVE.., is why I believe we lack such a unified culture*.., we simply haven't got our story down pat.., hence , confusion and fragmentation results.., [/i]
I mean the language that carried the very hopes and dreams of THAT CANADA.. by these very earliest of who we were once upon a time.. ( CANADIENS* by any other name.., and sometimes called coureurs de bois and voyageurs.. )..
Not the current obvious language we are exchanging in at the moment... but more like LA LANGUE DE MOLIÈRE..., which was vehicling the very idea of CANADA..., for many centuries..., before.., 1867*
village
4 years ago
Hence , the very vast frontier , which helped many '' strangers
Hence , the very vast frontier , which helped many '' strangers in a strange land '' co-exist within a very large house called CANADA.., provided for the frame of reference.., for the CONTEXT of a LAND called CANADA*
However what we've done with this earlier roadmap.., is simply relegated to some very distant memory.. to be found and for the most part lost.. dug very deep in our NATIONAL ARCHIVES... ( waiting one day to be rediscovered.., and fully appreciated .)
I suppose , many generations had to pass.. so that our CHILDREN'S children's childrens..*( for the most part who have many languages at their disposal.. ).., will unearth the great secrets of the CANADA's of past , present and yes.. FUTURE!
Time was needed , along with the communications technology of this century.., for all of these FRAGMENTS of our COLLECTIVE MEMORY to be - not only unearthed but rediscovered..., in the fullness of our memory*..
Once this is reached.., the question you ask..
will become obvious.., ( as to HOW WE GOT TO THE FRAGMENTED NARRATIVES and MEMORY that we have today...)..
Therefore I believe we lack such a unified culture.. because the elements that make us ONE.. has alluded most of us for the most part.. ( why , with the very large distances that keep our memories distant AND the language bridges still needing to be built .. so that we can better understand/innerstand and outerstand better all of the '' rooms ' that make up OUR HOUSE..), apart from one another ,as we are, both in memory passed on and physically separated by a huge land mass.., we remain A WORKS IN PROGRESS.., YET DISTANT from one another thereby creating a FRAGMENTED state of mind.. ergo MIND OF STATE*.._
Thus is our culture , thus is our unification urgent.
snert
4 years ago
You assumed again, Frank
and you can't read.
Both you and GWest ignored the disclaimer.
I don't think it was quite railing. Not even a rant but yes.
You bet!
I'm trying to avoid the titles [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]OK? Besides where does it say that the person who types the most wins?
Frank
4 years ago
snert
I will assume, correctly, that your post is a demonstration of your lack of interest in this topic.
zalm
4 years ago
Village....
..."and of course...Zalm.....
Uh-oh. Now wha'd I do?
I may be misunderstanding you, but if you want everyone to fit in, why don't we all learn the native languages that we erased in the 1700s and 1800s and even the 1900s?
Impractical, obviously. The few natives that remain we've forced to learn English, or perhaps French, so we may as well stick to those two.
That said, more recent immigrants, who doubtless have not a clue about the genocidal past of Canadian colonists, should still respect the culture they're coming to, as you say, by endeavouring to be good citizens and participating in the process with, first and foremost, a good knowledge of one of the more difficult and confusing languages on earth, spoken by a population who still speaks it terribly despite 12 years of education in the mother tongue. Don't confuse accent with facility.
If they have some trouble with it and yet still persevere to speak it with me in their broken and illiterate way, as does my tile-setter upstairs, great. I'll bend over backwards to help them understand and not castigate them for misusing 'there', 'their' and 'they're'. If they won't even speak to me, as only once in thirty years in the Yaohan centre in Richmond, I doubt I'll be back to give them a second chance. Hopefully somebody else will, and I doubt they're so irridentist, nor I so perfect, that nobody deserves a second chance.
Hopefully among all your posts you argued for tolerance, something that was missing from Bruce the Deuce's rant. I just want to be sure.
zalm
4 years ago
Genocidal?
Canadians?
Aye, and unthinkingly so. Just Google "Beothuk".
Good thing we're humble. There's reason to be.