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Labour's Wider Fight in BC
CUPE president says citizens' power is under attack.
CUPE picketers at Vancouver City Hall. Photo T. Sandborn.
[Editor's note: These comments are drawn from an address given by CUPE B.C. President Barry O'Neill to his union's convention on May 9, 2007, in Victoria.]
Since the provincial election in 2005, we have not seen the kind of sustained attack on working people and communities that we saw from 2001 to 2005, at least on the face of it. But of course the cuts for the poor, for women, for community services, for childcare -- they stayed in place. And thousands of our brothers and sisters in the HEU who lost their jobs did not get their jobs back. Those who did but were hired by privatized companies -- or the people who replaced them -- often live in poverty.
'Rally for a Deal'
Working TV's video highlights from the Aug. 29 rally at Vancouver City Hall by striking CUPE 15, 391 and 1004 members: click here.
We have seen changes in the last two years, and in many ways, the changes we are seeing in British Columbia today are even worse than what happened during the Campbell Liberals' first term.
There is legislation now that will fundamentally undermine our school boards. School trustees are elected democratically and locally to manage the education of our children. We have our differences with them sometimes, but they represent their communities and I think they are great.
Bill 20 creates new provincial superintendents that can overrule school boards. And for some issues, it makes school board superintendents responsible not to the elected trustees, but to the province. The B.C. School Trustees Association has passed a motion opposing the undermining of their autonomy and called on the province to withdraw this legislation.
TransLink hijacked
The province is also undermining municipal local governments. We have seen this happen before. The province brought in legislation undermining municipal authority over things like power projects and other major projects. But the new legislation they have brought in to govern TransLink goes further than anything we have seen.
Among the worst of these changes is the one that creates a "screening panel" that will nominate TransLink directors. The six-member screening panel will be composed of one representative from each of: the Vancouver Board of Trade, the Gateway Council, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of British Columbia, as well as the provincial government and the mayors' council. In other words, local elected representatives get one vote.
The Council of Mayors will be forced to choose from amongst investment, planning and taxation options put before them by the new unelected board. If the Council of Mayors declines to choose from amongst these options, then the unelected directors will be able to impose a decision. Effectively, taxation and investment decisions will be predetermined or imposed by the unelected directors.
Now let me ask you, how many people from the Board of Trade do you think ride the bus? How many chartered accountants ride the SkyTrain everyday?
Let there be no doubt: this is unprecedented. Can you imagine if the NDP were in power and they appointed the B.C. Fed, CUPE and the Canadian Labour Congress as the new Labour Board? The media would go ballistic. In this case? Barely a peep.
More rights... for corporations
Then there is TILMA -- the Trade, Investment and Labour Mobility Agreement. We know this deal is not about trade. We know that any barriers for trade between the provinces are minimal and can be dealt with. So why is the province jamming this through? Why can't we have public hearings on this? They are having them in Saskatchewan. Why can't we have a debate in the legislature on this?
The reason we can't have public hearings on this, is that the more the public knows, the more it realizes that the TILMA is not a trade agreement and not in the best interest of citizens. It is a bill of rights, and more rights, for corporations to defend their ability to make more profits. It affects the province, but it also affects school boards, municipalities, colleges and universities.
It means that school boards may not even be able to ban junk food in schools. Why? Because Clause 3 of the TILMA guarantees that there will not be any measures that restrict investment. This by their own admission. But not to worry: they are encouraging business to be in "voluntary compliance." And the Coca-Cola company just might feel that a ban on junk food restricts its investment -- you think?
Municipalities face the same thing in anything they do that restricts investment -- and that would mean just about anything a local government might do.
Private profiteers
And finally, there is privatization. We have seen the high-pressure campaign on the TransLink Board to do the Canada Line as a P3. Even though we were told that would not happen. And today we are seeing how they are being punished because they didn't come on side fast enough.
We have seen how a P3 was imposed on the Abbotsford hospital over the objections of the health region board. And now we see how they are trying to do the same thing in Victoria, both with sewage treatment and with a new patient tower for the Royal Jubilee Hospital. The Capital Regional District has to pay for 40 per cent of the cost of that health complex, but it is not permitted to see any planning documents.
Last autumn, Gordon Campbell told the Union of B.C. Municipalities that if the province contributed $20 million to a project, then the municipality didn't have the right to decide how the project would be done. Instead, Partnerships B.C. would have to be involved, and we know what that means. Partnerships B.C. is a whole topic in itself.
Campbell brought that measure in because Whistler said no to a P3 for sewage treatment. The P3 companies were outraged, and they told Campbell to do something about it. And Gordon Campbell promised them he would. How dare the public get involved in a project in their own community?
Democracy under attack
All of these things I've mentioned have something in common.
Each and every one of these measures undermines the democratic process in British Columbia. Each and every one takes away power from locally elected officials and puts it in the hands of either the province or corporations.
The TransLink legislation is the most blunt. It actually hands the power to tax over to Gordon Campbell's corporate cronies. But the rest of them move in the same direction. And they reinforce each other. Kevin Falcon was furious that TransLink said no twice to his pet P3 on the Canada Line. Now he is making sure they don't get the chance to do that again. I can say that in my 30 years as an activist, I have never seen such a blatant affront on democracy by any government in this country. All of these measures do not happen by accident.
Think about our most valuable assets: health, water power, education, recreation, transportation, communication. Each and every one of these resources is already in private hands or is being proposed to go into private hands. This is not an exhaustive list, but these assets and services will all be controlled by private business if this government is not stopped.
Fighting back
We in CUPE and the labour movement have a proud history of fighting for public services and fairness. And fighting back when those things are threatened. Our challenge, in this world where there are new technologies and everything is "more, faster, better," is to find new, faster and better ways to fight the good fight.
Well, we're off to a good start with our information sharing. The school trustees at their annual meeting in April not only said no to Bill 20, they said no to the TILMA. And they also passed a resolution saying they didn't want Partnerships B.C. looking over their shoulder every time they made a decision about a high school.
Municipalities across British Columbia have said no to the TILMA. Many of them have said they want to be exempted, or they want the agreement dumped.
I am proud to say that CUPE was the first organization in this province to take action against the TILMA. Today, we are working with a coalition of unions, environmental groups and organizations like the Council of Canadians to fight this agreement.
And finally, we come to privatization and public-private partnerships. We know these deals do not work for our citizens. They are secretive, they are expensive and they don't deliver. But they are very, very profitable, and they are coming at us faster than we have ever seen before. We know that to meet the needs of municipalities over the next few years, there will need to be 60 billion dollars invested, and both the federal and provincial governments want that to fall in the hands of their corporate buddies.
We are fighting them, and despite the vast resources they have, we are often successful. How do you beat the money they can throw at these projects? Knowledge, skill, dedication and hard work.
Related Tyee stories:
- Campbell Government Violated Charter Rights: Supreme Court
Tearing up health union contracts ruled unconstitutional. - Taking Stock as BC Fed Turns 50
Some views on labour's achievements, challenges. - What Happened to Labour Rights?
You'd hardly know collective bargaining is a human right.
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Cycling Commuter
4 years ago
Taxpayers should get to directly ratify or reject contracts.
Why is it that unionized government employees get to ratify or reject contracts that are negotiated by their respresentatives, but taxpayers don't get an opportunity to ratify or reject said contracts?
In competitive industries, consumers usually have the choice of buying products or services from someone else if a company charges too much because they pay their employees a lot more than the average income for work that requires average or below-average skills and effort. GM, Ford and Chrysler are examples of that.
In a government monopoly situation, politicians who have been bought and paid for by union bosses can and do pay their union buddies far more than average incomes for work requiring far less than average skills and effort. Regressive property tax structures often squeeze the money to pay for municipal labour bribery scams out of taxpayers with much lower than average incomes. Oppressed taxpayers do not have the option of switching to a different service provider or rejecting a taxpayer ratification vote. Struggling taxpayers are cornered and fleeced.
Each union member spends probably at least $20 in time and transportation costs in order to participate in a ratification vote. They obviously think it's worth it. Many taxpayers would also be happy to spend a few bucks to get a direct say in the matter.
Why is it that unionized employees who are on strike are allowed to work at another job during a strike, but employers are not allowed to hire replacements? This is a lop-sided approach. In a low-unemployment environment, employees could go on strike demanding $1,000 per hour from an employer for unskilled work then work at some other job for the next ten years without feeling any financial pinch. There is little incentive for them to settle for a reasonable amount.
Fiat lux
4 years ago
When will these so called
When will these so called leaders finally come to the realization that all what the world's governments are doing, causing incredible damage to humanity, the ecology and the biggest mass murder campaign with starvation and illness in history, is being taught in all the world's universities as the "science of neoclassical market economics"
This so called science is based on the fraudulent quotation of Adam Smiths' "self interest and invisible hand" theory.....
The fraudulent accounting systems of the GDP, Growth and Productivity figures...
The fraudulent money creation powers of the banks, used to expropriate the resources and economies of the globe with the perceived power of freshly created imaginary capital....
The fraudulent "free trade" treaties that have nothing to do with trade, but the enslavement of humanity under a new form of Soviet type collectivization...
Etc. etc. Shall we go on ?
Where in hell are their own miseducated economists to point out these elementary, criminal activities?
When I submitted the texts of the MAI treaty to the local IWA office in 1997, and they sent it to their head office, the chief economist of the union could see nothing wrong with it???????????
The MAI, between the 29 OECD nations was killed by the French government, fearing open revolution, just as the French and Dutch voters have rejected the also criminal EU Constitution, while the governments of the other countries accepted it.
Unless these union leaders wake up to the sordid facts of open crime one of these days, they can jump up and down and make beautiful speeches, they won't make the slightest difference and their unions and humanity are going down in flames.
So, how about the "free movement of labour" negotiated in the SPP ? Don't they know of this ?
Ed Deak, Big Lake, BC.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Great Article
Great Article, Barry!
I believe that it needs to be a resource document for all participants at the BC Fed. Can we, the readers of the Tyee, have your permission to publish this where-ever, whenever?
That said, who can and will create some point-form documents that go to the next level - the details level? Yes, readers of the Tyee are keenly aware of the geometric growth of problems related to the transfer of wealth and power to the already rich and powerful that international and inter-provincial agreements such as NAFTA, SPP and TILMA are causing and will continue to cause. We know that provincial changes to education, health, services to the poor and civic governance are stripping democracy from people at break-neck pace. However, most people are not being told about this in the main stream media. The media branch of the neo-conservative corporate mafia seems to be very good at minimizing/ marginalizing the concerns of the good-intentioned well-informed. How can we get the details out? Most people cannot employ enough inductive reasoning to move from the general to the specific; they can't fathom how all of the above will effect their individual lives. This is what they need to know before everything falls apart, and we finally have a fully functioning Orwellian existence.
CUPE's fight is every working and/or caring person's fight - from upper middle management down. I admire the CUPE union for standing up to the bullies. Nearly everyone (save socio-paths) know that sharing is a virtue, and hoarding/greed is a sin.
Working Man
4 years ago
Interesing
Sharingisgood, I doubt the Tyee is going to let you publish whatever you want since the BCFed is itself very much a political organisation. There are plenty of other places you can spout off the shelf rhetoric and tell your Faithful the Sky is Falling. I am sure you will all agree with each other. The fact is the union movement is for the status quo and is losing membership daily because of it.
What I find really interesting in Mr Beer's and Mr Sinclair's silence on the Vancouver city strike. The silence is deafening and I wonder why? This has to be a gold plated oppurtunity to recite the mantra. I assume the lack of reporting has something to do with the BCFed distancing itself from the Vancouver CUPE locals, since nothing gets posted here without the express permission of Mr Sinclair.
Perhaps Mr Beers and Mr Sinclair are waiting for an NDP government so they can run the province again.
David Beers
4 years ago
Response to Working Man
Regarding the Vancouver city strike, the Tyee has published numerous reported news stories. Your claim of 'silence' on our part is false.
Also false is your ungrounded accusation that Jim Sinclair or any labour leader dictates what can be published on The Tyee. Saying so libels my reputation and that of the site. Any further such libels will be removed and you will be blocked from further comment.
dr evil
4 years ago
Barry O`Neill
I wish I had caught your address Mr. O`Neill.
There are so few actual leaders around today it is rare opportunity to actually hear one. Great address Mr. O`Neill.
You`ve been in this fight a long long time old warrior..
"Forth! Down fear of darkness! Arise! Arise, Riders of Théoden! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... and the sun rises! Ride now... Ride now... Ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending! Death!"
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
Further response to Working Man
Sharingisgood, I doubt the Tyee is going to let you publish whatever you want since the BCFed is itself very much a political organisation.
I only asked to publish the article written by Barry O'Neill. I don't speak for the BC Fed. I mearly suggested it would be a good resource document for the entire BC Fed.
Additionally, The article very clearly tells how you have been losing your say as a citizen. Under the Provincial Liberal government, and the Federal Liberal and Conservative governments, citizens have been losing their say in how things are managed and run.
The current Feds micromanage just about every department, yet they let practically no-one, except Harper, say anything about policy - and he says practically nothing. It is a closed-mouth leadership that is afraid of losing power should their actual policy directives be written down. The Federal Liberals, though not quite as scarey, were but a little better under Cretien and Martin. After all, NAFTA continued though it has always been unpopular with the electorate. Neither, the Conservatives nor the Liberals, have brought the topic of NAFTA up in the media once in power.
The provincial Liberals claimed to be about open and accountable government, saying they would give much power to regional and civic governments. In fact, they have been giving them power to deal with tax cuts - to be the scapegoats. Now that these lower levels of government have reached an exhausted breaking point and been speaking out about being assigned tasks that are impossible to complete, they are being removed from the equation as unnecessary. Tax-payers can no longer decide how they want their local governments to run, local resources to be used. Direction comes from Victoria, and the Liberals say little about anything they are doing - in and out of The Legislature. Don't forget, they have reduced the number of days The Legislature sits and they have significantly reduced the amount of time alloted for Question Period. And, when in Question Period, they refuse to answer many questions about what they are doing - BC Rail/Basi Virk and Stonewally come to my mind as nearly completely forgotten by the mainstream media.
Don't forget, Working Man, sharing is good!
Davey-boy
4 years ago
Something you are all forgetting
Real inflation is running at around 10%, not the 2% - 3.5% Consumer Price Index.
The CPI is a scam because food, fuel, cars, interest rates and real estate prices are all either under-represented or excluded entirely.
And the private sector is presently enjoying wage increases in the 10% - 100% range.
If the City of Vancouver had accepted the union's first offer ages ago, it would have been a victory for the employer.
Adamwest
4 years ago
This is so much nonsense
This is so much nonsense coming from a leader of a political movement masquerading as a public sector union. CUPE and others such as the BCTF etc. would be far more credible if they'd leave ideology aside and stick to vouching pragmatically for their members when bargaining for wages, benefits and safety in the workplace.
dr evil
4 years ago
ideaology
batman...you think the "employers" are not idealogical?
You think Sam and group are not idealogical?
This is about union busting...authoritarian control..you know parent and child...
Instead of dealing adult to adult Sam wants it Parent to child.
Leave idealogy aside...what world do you live in?
Adamwest
4 years ago
You're asking what world do
You're asking what world do I live in while claiming that 17.5% over 5 years is union busting? Surely you jest.
IAMC
4 years ago
London Bridge is Falling Down
A bridge collapsed a few weeks ago in Minnesota.
The bridge should have been maintained.
The fed's gave Minnesota money for upgrading infrastructure.
The gutless Democrat politicians decided to build a Light Rail from Minneapolis to the airport.
There it is, nobody rides on it.
The politician can run on a sexy promise to build a "green" light rail system.
They can't run on maintaining infrastructure.
A solution is to do what they do in Europe.
Privatize bridges, highways and what ever else moves.
This frees up taxpayers money to be spent on other things, or reduced.
Let the private owner, own and maintain the bridge.
You can be sure that they will baby their possession, to last as long as possible, in order to maximize the profit.
What would CUPE think of this?
They would be against it, because there is no guarantee that they could monopolize this service.
Public Sector Unions, are ruing our country.
lynn
4 years ago
Identifying our solidarity
Thanks Barry O'Neill and The Tyee.
Okay, I'm willing to look like a bit of a naive Pollyanna for this but here goes -
I think we need something like an orange ribbon campaign denoting democracy and people power. (much like the aids ribbon). Something that people can easily acquire and make for themselves at home and that will be an identifying symbol of solidarity - signifying democratic power to the people.
I mean this seriously. (I'm sure there may be better ideas so if you've got one - please post it).
I know that it's not going to fix what needs to be fixed but we need a way to begin to marshall forces quickly from all sectors in this fight. We need to find a way to gather those forces who may not agree on everything but who definitely agree that something must be done to stop the accelerating rate we are losing our human/citizen rights.
We need to find a way to quickly identify that solidarity of purpose despite our diiferences.
Let us begin here in this province and then widen our scope. (We need a way to begin to push back. We also need a quick way to get an often busy and sleeping public to ask: "Why are those people wearing orange ribbons - why are the ribbons tied to their car antennas?" What does it mean?)
The mainstream media has already proved that it's not going to help further the public dialogue so let's create it ourselves - from one to another. Identifying and strengthening what we agree on. Much like Bradbury's solution to the burning of books in Fahrenheit 451 - where it was individual people themselves who kept the words of the books alive - spreading the information in the most personal of ways from one to another.
Though often critical of these dark times -I'm an optimist at heart. I don't think it's too late. Not at all.
Anyway, if you're lost in the woods, you gotta first believe there is a first step that will lead to the way out...
dr evil
4 years ago
its not the money
batman...flexibility..advancing on "merit" (suckholing) not seniority..contracting out..
what about those issues...idealogical
just maybe???
lose seniority and your union is busted..you know that..quit playing your silly games here.
IAMC..your bridge story is a whopper..c`mon your not that [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED HERE...]..that [i]idealogical surely...[...HERE...].
You [...AND HERE. -TYEE EDITOR.] have made your choice, you`ve chosen your side.. why come here to apologize?
Choices....
Was it Camus who said we have a choice:
Feed the hungry
Aid the sick
or...
fire up the ovens
Fiat lux
4 years ago
I always find it interesting
I always find it interesting when people are screaming about union demands, but never the big business conspiracies, like the NAFTA, SPP, the Bilderbergers, the Trilaterals, Tom d'Aquino's chief executives where the lowest paid steals $2. million from the public's pocket every year. Yes, steals, because nobody can "earn" millions. We all are paying for that.
IAMC where in hell is everything, like roads and bridges in Europe privatized, except in your warped dreams?
The guys of our local Swiss colony, including my own business partner, are going to Switzerland every year for a few months "to make money", up to $500/day, then they come back as fast as they can. They're ordinary working people, not executives and their railways, roads and bridges are public properties.
Each time we go shopping, twice a month, prices are up, without the slightest justification. Since this neoclassical crime wave was forced on us some 35 years ago, costs went up 1000%, and wages stagnated. If people would still get the same wage scales they did 35-40 years ago,
the minimum wage would be %50/hr.
In 1966 we bought a bungalow in Vancouver for $6,000, in 1975 I bought a brand new Dodge Tradesman 200 van, loaded, for $5,600 and our weekly grocery bill for 5 was $25, and we like to eat well.
Compare these prices with today's "globally competitive free market" fraud, sold by politicians and economists.
But then, there's no point in arguing with the brainwashed faithful.
Ed Deak.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Cycling Commuter 11 hours
Cycling Commuter 11 hours ago, price fixing does not give consumers a choice also your views are so elitist like bringing in 3rd world peasants at $4. an hour (slaves) instead of paying a half decent wage for all workers! You and your rich buddies on the golf course 6 days a week pulling in 6+ digit bucks for no work at all, your kind disgust me as you will find at the end of this battle, that the SCC will be the true last word for real democracy not what we have been living under since ww2
www.killercoke.org
dr evil
4 years ago
I like it
the orange idea...I just put a fiery orange nasturtium in my lapel.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
response to IAMC, Adamwest
IAMC said when tries to tie a bridge collapse in Minnesota to what is happening in BC:
I AM Sorry, IMAC, but your straw dog does not bark and your paper tiger doesn't bite. You are really struggling to understand the content of the article and the discussion, and/or you are really struggling to say something negative about unions, CUPE, in particular. Whatever the case, I think you need to read the article and look closely to what is being said.
Adamwest:
I find it wonderfully refreshing that many union leaders are both, intelligent enough and educated enough, to be able to comprehend the big picture. Even more refreshing is the fact that they can articulate so clearly what is happening on macro, medial, and micro levels of government and industry. Gone are the days of working people being reduced to bootlicks 'cuz the massah says they gots ta do it. Gone are the days when union bosses don't look at the big picture.
Working people (like the union leadership) don't need you to tell them what is important to them. You can tell your politicians what is important to you (and unless you are a very wealthy/influential Liberal, they may not give a fig about what you have to say). You don't need to read articles written by union leaders if you don't want to do so. Further, political leadership is about how public money gets spent or not spent. It is public sector unions' leaderships' job to represent the political point of view of the highly educated, working people/electorate to the public. It is their job to help the public understand the needs of working people so that money gets spent appropriately and that government leaders get re-elected or thrown out for what they are doing. Working people are losing democracy and it just may be important to them!
I am pretty sure that The Tyee would welcome a counter article by any of the current politicians in power. If you have any political clout, Adamwest, get one of your leaders to step up to the plate, write and article and sign his or her name to it. I would love to comment.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Lynn great idea with the
Lynn great idea with the orange ribbon but We have to move now! I believe that we need a contingency plan on how to organize for when they shut the net down as they undoubtedly are, working 24/7.
A new paper for the people by the people kind of like the Georgia Straight used to be before corporate ads screwed it up.
If the net is closed then I would suggest the first step is to go to a street corner of a main street and start walking to the city center in a great show of protest by us "People Power" and make lots of noise!
I'm going to join CUPE in front of king Sam's throne room or City Hall for a start!
Is this the start of TILMA....?
Google ken dobell, quite a character.
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=c7a77fb1-844f-451b-abd5-8eee263a9b75
Adamwest
4 years ago
The socialist apologists are
The socialist apologists are coming out of the woodwork on this one. Of course infrastructure should be privatized. You use you pay, otherwise you don't. The taxpayer gets relief, the units are maintained properly, and the public sector unions are forced to be productive and pragmatic.
BC Dude
4 years ago
10 Questions Canadians
10 Questions Canadians Should Ask Themselves About Bank Profits
http://www.cancrc.org/english/ccrc10q.html
As this is legalized loan sharking and affects all hard working people like CUPE HEU, BCTF, and all Union members who more than likely have loans, mortgages, credit cards, and any other money mongering dolts.
I'd say our forefathers are wondering if they went to jail, got beaten or even died to form the Unions we have today for naught?
Adamwest
4 years ago
Got news for you Dude;
Got news for you Dude; Those unions all own shares in those banks through their pension programs. If you were smart you'd buy some yourself.
realisticman
4 years ago
Crank up your Speakers
http://www.iet.ntnu.no/~makarov/temporary_url_20060919zkkfg/internationale-ru.mp3
dr evil
4 years ago
Batman
Ever been a member of a public "sector" union batman?
Ever been a member of a private "sector" union?
Could you give us a rundown on productivity and pragmatism of the one compared to the other?
Could you possibly Crunch some numbers for us? Just asking.
Fiat lux
4 years ago
One of the funniest claims
One of the funniest claims coming from the faithful is that privatized services "save money for the taxpayers"
So, who is paying for them, if not the taxpayers? Investment is a loan and has to be paid back by the users, with high interest and following perpetual indebtedness.
There's no free lunch and it is the public who pays for privatized services, one way, or another. It is the taxpayers who have to pay the maintenance, repair and rebuilding costs, regardless who owns the infrastructures and services.
The PPPs are the biggest racket, as they cost more to the taxpayers than if they were built from public monies, the quality is usually lousy and the services, like in our privatized old people's homes, unless the victims are paying incredibly high monthly fees, are outrageous and lousy, while the staff is treated like animals.
Nevertheless, it is a good lesson to read the comments by the promoters of privatization, showing their level of knowledge and understanding of simple business practices.
Ed Deak.
lynn
4 years ago
Orange ya willing to give it a try?
dr. evil,
Very nice original touch of yours - the orange nasturtium in the lapel, I especially like the "fiery" aspect of it.
For those who find themselves nasturtiumless:
Surveyor's tape is excellent for ribbons. It is waterproof. A roll of tape costs around three dollars. I know it comes in orange. You can just cut it into ribbons. Give some to friends. Tie them on your car antennas, bike gear... wear them....anywhere. Tie them round your hat. Make a bracelet. Tie them on your back packs.
People power.
Write a letter to the editor of your local paper and explain why people are wearing them.....that we are tired of the democratic process being undermined in this province - tired of our province being sold from under us...tired of the relentless privatization, the selling off of our rivers, our railway, our resources, taking the power out of BC Hydro...TILMA...our loss of control over our future and our lives....tired of vital information being withheld from public view.
I agree, BC Dude. The time is now.
If tying an orange ribbon on is too much to ask - we don't deserve to win this fight.
dr evil
4 years ago
sectors
In my experience ..I`m retired now..I`ve worked and been a member of unions both "private" and "public"...and the public was by far the most efficient and what you would call pragmatic. The workload and expectations were considerably less in the private "sector".
The waste and inefficiencies were far greater in private industry.
dr evil
4 years ago
orange wristbands
The dude is of course right the time is now..though it may have been ..ohhh ten years ago or after.. so ..at least since 2001 a neo-liberal odd-I-see. The time was then but then ..then is now..now and then
so..why not now...lets make it now..it has to be now.
I`ve put on a wristband my daughter wove many years ago...its mostly orange. The fiery nasturtium has gotten kind of wilty..but yeah..how about a name for a new wave band....its...FIERY NASTURTIUM !
My wife got a glimpse of gordo glitter on the idiot box and he was wearing a yellow wristband...what is that on his wrist???
I got my orange on ...C`mon C`mon
Git yur orange on!
dorothy
4 years ago
orangemen and such
"Perhaps Mr Beers and Mr Sinclair are waiting for an NDP government so they can run the province again."
No, no, you got it wrong! it's the other crew with that slightly vindictive one-upmanship mentality. I still hear Gordo's gleeful "it's our turn now", every time he and/or some henchmen of his pull some cheapo trick on our fair province...
Orange is good - although my statement arm is getting a bit crowded, OK, this one may do some good.
Speaking of cheap tricks - R'man, what is that one-liner all about? What is wrong with 'Internationale'? Isn't that the song of the globalizers?
dorothy
4 years ago
And by the way
CUPE crews have a petition to sign for those who wish to stand up and be counted
dr evil
4 years ago
but lynn dear its a big box world
in todays neo-liberal chamber of commerce world shouldn`t the individual have free choice..to choose whatever colour she/he wishes..to experience the colour of their choosing....isn`t you`re suggestion ..somehow..well collective or ...(shudder)
much like ..the common good or some old fashioned notion like that. We are all free individuals now..competing..with each other...reaching for the brass ring...
reaching..striving...with clenched perfect teeth for the excellence..attaining new and exciting material pleasures and not paying taxes yes!! Big Rock Candy Mountain!
That is what the world is for...big box world...efficient highways moving THE SHINY STUFF... the stuff of shopping... the stuff of dreams.
The whole world! one big BOX..no longer round but SQUARE! Those silly inefficient corners rounded off.. the big box third from the sun!
lynn
4 years ago
"The big box third from the sun".
Bang on, dr. evil.
One day, no doubt, there will be super-sized interplanetary shopping carts that will travel from one big box planet to the next.... in their never-ending quest to find more of that SHINY STUFF you mention.
But not one fiery orange nasturtium will be found blooming.... anywhere.
Poor pathetic souls. They should have dreamed better.
Working Man
4 years ago
Testy
Touch a little sensative bone about who bankrolls this site?
dr evil
4 years ago
yes yes SUPERSIZE it ALL ....BIG American Bigness
Huge interplanetary shopping carts! Harvesting , Harvesting everywhere...growing!..creating wealth for....and jobs! jobs! jobs! jobs!
The neverending quest for the excellent stoofo shino (interplanetary and global language for SHINY STUFF)
(an evil aside)
Maybe the Christian Revelation Rapture Apocalypto people have it all wrong about the coming Satanic World Government..instead of attacking the tattered and torn old originally well intentioned U.N. maybe its really Globalization Global business...the bar code the mark of the beast.
If your Orange Revolution doesn`t do it
and I hate to sound a pessimist Lynn ...Dorothys Ragnarok may be the way of it
Working Man
4 years ago
Numerous?
Perhaps not quite silence but I can only find two articles in the month of August regarding the Vancouver civic strike. For an issue that affects the daily life of so many readers, this is virtually silence. I wonder why?
I also wonder why Perley Edmund Holmes' recent and lengthy prison sentence also did not get reported here. He pleaded guily, unlike a certain other person of his local in 1983 where several witnesses "disappeared."
Oh, well, seems any dissenting voice gets banned. I have enjoyed posting here to offer an alternative view, something the Faithful don't like to hear.
G West
4 years ago
Perley Edmund Holmes
Is a "LIBERAL" and was a main supporter of Stephane Dion for the leadership of the Federal Party. Is that the 'faithful' you're talking about? He's also been convicted of something that so far as I know - had absolutely nothing to do with his job as business manager for the Ironworkers.
Now, did you have a point, or are you just bitter...'working man'?
Fiat lux
4 years ago
What is lost in the
What is lost in the presently used fraudulent economic theory is that :
Human labour doesn't cost anything for an economy, because it is energy neutral.
The only real economic costs are resource and energy inputs. Presently used monetary values are not realities, but infinitely distorted, temporary perceptions, used to expropriate, steal and kill.
If humanity wants to survive as a civilization, we must have a monetary system that fully represents physical inputs.
It will stop "wealth creation", but also poverty and ecological destruction accounted as "growth".
When human labour is replaced with automation requiring huge energy inputs, there are no "savings", but the recipe of self destruction.
Ed Deak,
Working Man
4 years ago
Really?
Using that logic, Gordon Campbell's conviction for drunk driving had nothing to do with he being premier. I suppose dealing 132 lbs of coke is not a bad a getting hammered and driving.
Stump
4 years ago
two answers
Becauset the public votes for council and the mayor. Don't vote for union-busters if you don't want a strike.
Companies and gov't can use managers to do unionized workers' jobs.
Silly. If the job market was that lucrative, people would simply quit their job and go work elsewhere. What a stupid example.
G West
4 years ago
Hardly?
There's a big difference between a union and a government - although I know YOU don't know the difference working man.
Work on a better analogy. Besides, I never said Perley Holmes shouldn't have been bounced from his JOB at the union...which he was, as well as dropped from the list of LIBERAL Dion supporters. The only sensible question to arise from your analogy would be an explanation from Campbell why he didn't resign....
A question a many British Columbians still ask. On that point, the Ironworkers look at lot better than BC 'Liberals', now don't they?
Face it man, you were just trying to find another way to dump ad hominem abuse on unions…maybe YOU should be a little more careful!
Working Man
4 years ago
Last Word
In defference, I will let you have the last word, G West. Today is the first day of school and I am busy.
Besides, I am not worthy.
"In that point, the Ironworkers look at lot better than BC 'Liberals', now don't they?"
Maybe you think that driving over 0.08 is a worst crime than dealing in 100+ lbs of coke but the courts, especially in the USA, don't.
Holmes kind of had to resign as he is now doing eight years in a US jail and you can count they he will do at least half of that. He is also not the first member of said union and local to be in trouble with coke. In a previous case, there were allegations of witness tampering and involvement of Hell's Angels. Fortunately, that union leader's trouble with the law didn't keep him from running the province for four years.
G West
4 years ago
what's 'defference?'
Moreover, Campbell wasn't the first politician to try to flout his behavior either. If you want to talk about history maybe we could go back a few years to the Robert Sommers case and look at the Attorney-General (at the time) and how he worked for years to avoid charging his cabinet colleague - and move on up through several premiers who resigned , rightly or wrongly, under a cloud.
Campbell - who screamed blue murder to 'release the hounds' on two NDP premiers for things neither of them had done (which was subsequently affirmed in court) should have resigned and you and every honest British Columbian knows it.
Our current premier, apparently, believes in the divine right of kings and if you knew anything about how business is done in Victoria, it wouldn't be the odd union leader you were upset about.
As I wrote above, all you were ever interested in was slamming another union and casting aspersions at the Tyee – which was so clearly pointed out above here.
By the way, writing another post is a funny way to let someone else have the last word...but go for it, get the kiddies off to school and think about your next comeback. I have work to do.
By the way, I notice you never mention the affairs of several employers on the provincial scene who've been involved with a few questionable deals with another ironworkers' organization...
How come?
Skywalker
4 years ago
A little deja vu.
I seem to recall that in the late 90's CUPE was legislated back to work with an imposed settlement. At the time CUPE went ballistic because it was done by the NDP and CUPE probably felt they could do better if they kept the schools closed longer. It turned out that in 2001 CUPE went to sleep because they were so miffed at the NDP and that along with other issues brought them Gordon Campbell.
They had not learned much by 2005 for by that time they were supporting Carole James and the nicer NDP and after all the needless pain of Campbell's first four years the best the new NDP could do was Opposition. Campbell got another four years so reinvent himself as a more moderate "ruler".
CUPE still has not figured it out and they will have to fight many of the old battles all over again. So will all the other public sector unions because Campbell is headed for another term. That is an absolute tragedy for BC but somehow I have trouble sympathizing with CUPE or for that matter the BCGEU.
Stump
4 years ago
equal treatment
I love how a couple of corrupt union bosses are motivation enough for the Ayn Rand-wannabes to get rid of organized labour.
Ever considered applying that logic to corporations, ceos, and capitalists?
bob the cat
4 years ago
Socialist humour
Here's a Polish one I heard a long time ago;
"Under capitalism, man exploits man, under socialism, the reverse is true."
Post socialist humor
>
> From an immigrant from the former Eastern bloc:
>
> "Everything they told us about socialism was a lie.
> Worse, everything they told us about capitalism is true."
>
bob the cat
4 years ago
Errata
Should read "Post Socialist humour".
DPL
4 years ago
Things are picking up in the
Things are picking up in the Vancouver strike. The city guys are now warning the citizens of a hugh increase in their taxes. so they are finnally getting around to the realization that this strike must end and soon.Latest pollis dind't exactly show management as being good at trying to negotiate. I rather doubt the increased costs tghey report and let's not forget the workers pay city taxes too
avandoc
4 years ago
The "unions are ruining our
The "unions are ruining our country" crowd needs a history lesson.
Why do we have 5-day work weeks, prohibition of child labor, 8-hour days, paid vacations, and a large middle class?
Unions.
Corporate bosses are the the ones robbing us, as Ed Deak said. A little featherbedding isn't going to ruin very much. Enron debacles and subprime loan market collapses have ruined plenty of people's lives.
Orange ribbon--neat idea. Why orange, though?
How do we get the word out?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Business view of unions
Good piece in the National Post today giving us the CEO's view of unions.
"...Unions have for the most part outlived their usefulness as we have good labour legislation in each province".
"...Unions have become big business and their mandate is as much about protecting the union business as protecting workers".
"... protecting the unproductive worker will eventually lead to a poor economy"
Government of course is a captive audience for unions, no CEO's to worry about here.
I'm sure the CUPE union will eventually get their way - ensuring that the "milk rises to the top" (seniority trumps ability in this crazy world).
In the CUPE strike, the government will slowly relinquish more control in areas that they should in fact be taking back control e.g. "bumping rights" - another bit of union nonsense.
So what happens when the CEO's decide to move business out of town. Now the tax base is much lower, and the unemployment roles are higher. One has to remember some of the rules of capitalism. One is that capital can and will move.
No matter the CUPE folks will all be working to the very end - the no layoff rule will guarantee that.
Sounds a bit Alice in Wonderland to me.
Can't really fault the union or the members - they are in it for all they can get. And I have to say their PR is so much better than the City's.
I will fault the weak management if they give in on these issues of management control.
G West
4 years ago
Jane Doe
Sounds a little dyspeptic and bitter to me...I don't suppose you'd expect much else from the National Post, would you?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
G West and dyspepsia
Sorry to hear you're having a little trouble stomaching the substance of text, however your fall back of just trashing the source wont help you much either.
The sad facts are that CEO's run business, governments, in the main, don't (Subject of a whole other debate - getting government out of the service sector).
Anyway if these lopsided union demands ever creep into private industry the ensuing strikes will not end nicely. The CEO will not be bullied in front of the public, the way CUPE attempts to discredit the voter dependent government.
There will be closures, layoffs, less "things" for government to tax. Less government services being offered, no less government expense though with its bloated payroll of life long hangers on.
So you may get your end of big business yet ,I'm just not sure you will like the result.
And by the way do you have plan for picking up the pieces of this post capitalist world?
Skywalker
4 years ago
Same old stuff.
Jane Doe, they have been saying that about unions since the beginning. And when unions all go to sleep we will be at the mercy of employers who are all fair and generous? Yeah right? It is called the National Post because it reflects the intelligence of a post.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
same old
Wrong - neither scenario is what we want.
But trashing the source is not helping, it was only reported there. The survey was conducted by a well respected pollster.
We have to have moderate unions making reasonable demands based on the society we live in. Asking for cradle to grave job security is not realistic. Expecting to have a hand on some of the management control levers is not reasonable.
Unions have a role in modern society, but it can never be a dominant role. After all they don't produce anything, except discontent.
Skywalker
4 years ago
Skip the union paranoia.
When you say, "Unions have a role in modern society, but it can never be a dominant role. After all they don't produce anything, except discontent" you forget that it was that "discontent" that produced all of the improvements in the workplace. What you are suggesting is that we now let the employers decide the rules of the workplace and that takes up back to the 1800's.
Moderate unions rarely achieved anything more than the status quo. They relied on benevolence of the employer. To wait till an employer satisfies his greed and has a tweak of his conscience, is the height of foolishness. Maybe you can do that while waving the National Post but most workers are smarter.
"Moderate Unions" are parasitic. They benefit from the hard work and sacrifice of the others unions who demand improvements as the employer then has to match the benefits to keep his workers. I never found anything in the National Post that was not suited to the bottom of a bird cage. Your reference to this item has not changed my opinion. As for the poll, it is just the kind of poll that the post would reprint - a poll on unions by mostly non-union respondents.
We once lived in your kind of world and now we're not interested in going back to the past.
dr evil
4 years ago
Jane Doe
Ms. Doe...I very seldom do this..and I don`t particularly like to do this ..but I have to ask you..
Where are you from?
Stump
4 years ago
Production
And people who make enough money to be able to afford to buy more than the bare necessities. So, I guess unions produce the fuel that drives the modern economy.
Articles about unions however, seem to produce comments cribbed directly from Fraser Institute talking points.
Stump
4 years ago
management control levers????
Guess what? People aren't machines. Don't treat them as such and you might not have to fight unions demanding a modicum of humanity from employers.
Your choice of phrase says more about you than you might like IMO.
lynn
4 years ago
Use it or lose it
How do we get the word out?
Hi avandoc,
Orange is just a suggestion. The orange ribbon has quite a protest history but to be honest I just liked the vibrancy and the alive juiciness of the colour - the life of it - the very thing now being threatened by the New World Order leering over us.
Any other suggestions certainly are welcome - but I think it is important to not just discuss this forever but to move on it now... and act.
On a practical note, one of the great things about surveyor's tape is it is inexpensive, waterproof, flexible and if you have a waterproof felt pen you can write your message on it.
A group of students in the US is doing just that - using an orange-band as message board:
http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper244/news/2007/08/30/News/Giving.Issues.Color-2943675.shtml
As for getting the word out, hopefully commentors here will help with that. I would think unions, students, environmental groups and other sectors who have an interest in citizen power will use their access to membership and fellow citizens to do so.
My son and his girlfriend have tied an orange ribbon on their backpacks. I have one tied around the antenna of our jeep...and the brim of a favourite old hat of mine. Also made some for my friends. ..as well I am working on some posters to place around town. I'm just one person - and democracy is definitely a group effort.
Let's see how many of us still believe it is worth the effort.
I know real change takes much, much, much more than this - but this is just a way to mobilize forces. A start.
Citizen and people power.
The old "use it or you'll lose it."
Surveyor's tape is easy to find in any hardware store... corner store even.
janet666
4 years ago
unions care about the poor? don't make me laugh
Solidarity. Remember that?? We all marched. We all supported. The "union" sold us out. You will spew any rhetoric to convince the poor to vote for your shit. Without big business, unions wouldn't exist, you support each other in your corrupt backroom deals. Another thing, remember when Joy McPhail cut welfare rates?
lynn
4 years ago
Bravo Skywalker
"Moderate Unions" are parasitic. They benefit from the hard work and sacrifice of the others unions who demand improvements as the employer then has to match the benefits to keep his workers
Extremely well said, Skywalker....so much so, it bears repeating.
"Moderate unions" act out weakness of character rather than out of the strength... and the risk of real character.
Skywalker
4 years ago
Hey Janet!
I thought it was Jack Munroe of the IWA that sold us out and do you really think any pro business government that craps on union workers is going to do more for the poor? Sure they will.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
That seemed to get the ball rolling
Skywalker I agree with you that the unions have (past tense) achieved some useful work in the first world nations. They now need to move on to the third world nations.
The government, as an employer, is not going to be malevolent towards its staff. The non-union sector in government aren't complaining bitterly about their lot.
So let's not take some Dickensian view of the big bad employer working these poor souls to an early grave. That's just not true. These folks will live longer than most with their pensions of two thirds of their best five years, plus inflation plus benefits. No poor souls here.
I know many on this site take that Dickensian view as a starting point for all discussion, simply because that is the comfortable road, and all your friends on this board will pat you on the back.
Cut forward from the 19th century and look at the labour rates and benefits inside government and you will see a very rosy picture.
I don't know how familiar you are with actuarial calculations, but take a defined benefit pension plan paying out for twenty or thirty years after retirement and put that money back into what they already get paid and watch that rate rise.
Not that I am arguing, nor is government, with the rate increase. It's the other insidious stuff, that will cost unreasonably, and well into the future. Thats the stuff that the CUPE leaders and PR front man want to keep out of public view.
And I give them full marks for doing a good job of keeping it away from the publics attention. And just to make sure it stays that way, throw a zinger in and accuse the government of "union busting".
My point stills stands. The unions are going too far and asking for too many guarantees of security.
I'm afraid that it is an insecure world that doesn't offer guarantees and I don't want my children and their children to carry a tax burden because some government negotiator finally caved into a bunch of well organized bullies.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Where are you from?
Dr Evil
I'm from around these parts.
Hope this helps
JD
G West
4 years ago
Yep that is sad j/doe
It's also pretty interesting that a lot more of them end up in jail than union leaders do..funny innit?
If you don't think the national post is a right wing business organ what is it?
G West
4 years ago
And the point
about the best and most successful western countries being the most highly unionized... as opposed to the ones like the US and Australia (which are both going backwards and falling down the international rankings)...how do you account for that?
Check out the world economic forum - the stats are there.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Afford the to buy.......
Stump.
People need to make a decent wage - no argument.
How that is set, once you get outside of the marketplace though, I don't know. Is it right that people get $13 bagging products and making change in retail outlets and yet those bagging liquor get twice that.
Ah you say lets organize those poor guys working for $13 and demand $26 + pension + benefits + job security for life.
Ah but these employers don't have to worry about getting votes - they can't be bullied the same way as those poor government negotiators can.
So now Monster retail company #1 says "if we give that we will be blown out of the market by Monster retail company #2". So if we cave in and give that rate we will go under; I think we will move to a new location.
Not that my issue at this point is CUPEs wage demands. It's the costs that keep on taking well into the future. The decisions that need to stay in the hands of the employer.
The ones I referred to as "management control levers". Yes you're right the phase does seem to have certain Charlie Chaplin ring to it.
Anyway Stump - this stuff is basic economics, of which I'm sure you are aware.
The capitalist system has its faults (many) but look around the world - can you see a system that works (and thrives) that is better?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Bravo skywalker???? you're kidding right?
Lynn
It sounds like you are proposing radical tactics by unions. And let the next union become even more radical, or they will be classed as "parasitic" - eating only from the spoils of the last crazy union demand.
Do you stop for one minute and see where this is going to take you. You will price the whole economy out of the world market.
Where will government get its money from - no one left to tax. No health, no social programs no road maintenance etc etc.
As I have said to one other far left person on this board if you feel that way about it stop using the products of big business.
Current, as you read this on your networked computer, you are supporting some of the more aggressive players in the world of big business. Stop now and make a stand, fling your computer and your cell phone in the garbage
You cannot have it both ways; right now yours is the stand of the hypocrite.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Jail + unionized western coutries
Ah G West - nice to talk with you again.
Jail them both I say - as for numbers of each, I don't think this moves our discussion too far forward - do you?
Unions have a role, but most of their work should now be in the far and possibly middle east.
Taxing my children's children way into the future should not be part of their role. Negotiate a reasonable wage settlement but stop supporting the unproductive worker. Stop giving him/her advancement simply because s/he has been there the longest. Don't let him/her "bump" someone who is doing a good job, and don't guarantee a job for life.
These kind of conditions create, in the workplace, a certain "who cares" attitude i.e. no one can fire me. So like cancer that attitude will spread.
It isn't healthy. And giving in to such demands isn't healthy. As I said the government should be trying to reverse some of these unhealthy perks - not giving new ones. And that isn't union busting that's just union bubble busting.
I like that analogy, like the housing bubble, the high tech bubble.
Remember you heard it here first - the "union bubble". Need I make the obvious next statement; give you a clue - I'm holding a pin.
Stump
4 years ago
better working systems
Mixed systems that take the best of both. Such as those used by many Scandinavian countries.
Anyway, we don't have capitalism. We have corporate welfare.
The roles of hiring, firing, and disciplining belong to management. There's always mechanisms in every collective agreement that lays out the protocols and steps to discipline and fire the inept, incompetent, or lazy. If there's problems in the workplace with those issues, the blame lies squarely on management's shoulders.... they are the ones not doing THEIR jobs.
Skywalker
4 years ago
Is this for real?
"Current, as you read this on your networked computer, you are supporting some of the more aggressive players in the world of big business. Stop now and make a stand, fling your computer and your cell phone in the garbage
You cannot have it both ways; right now yours is the stand of the hypocrite."
Wouldn't it just suit all these neocons if we gave up our technology because it was not all made by unionized labour and go to communicate with, say smoke signals.
So Jane Doe are you going to give up your car because it was made by union labour? What utter nonsense.
You fight the good fight making the world a better place for the average worker with everything you have, even the tools sold by the devil if you have to.
The CEO's of big business don't need our help they are doing quite nicely and likely pay less taxes than I do. Maybe if they paid more then you children's future would be secure.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Who is this Jane Doe? Wow,
Who is this Jane Doe?
Wow, what an absolute misguided person, if it were not for the unions, life in NA for the many families would still be in the dark ages of child labour (gordo's $6.) no Universal Health Care, next to no education, Workers Compo, UI, now called of all things EI go figure, Minister of Human Misery etc
We the People made this country what it is or was, shame on our elected cowards for allowing shite like NAFTA, FTA, TILMA, ATLANTICA, SPP, NAU, NWO etc I just hope that the SCC puts a stop on all treasonous acts against OUR Sovereign Nation Canada Yes an ORANGEarm band will mean a new show of Solidarity!
We won’t be sold out this time like we were in the 1983 Kelowna Accord!
Almost four 4 years for real justice in BC, Why?
Check http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
A daily report on Bush's "lil" Kiss A-- puppy dog S Harper as this guy has no self respect.
http://www.harperindex.ca/index.cfm
A new Real News site!
http://www.therealnews.com/web/index.php
G West
4 years ago
Just check the figures Jane
Canada is falling down on the job with the US and Oz...we have too few strong industrial unions and too few union members generally - and that's a big part of the problem.
There's another kind of democracy you know - very popular in both Japan and Germany - called industrial democracy in a mixed economy...you should check that out too although Stump's point about certain Scandinavian countries is also well taken.
The biggest goldbrickers I've ever run across were business owners. Like the family member who currently owns Butchart Gardens and doesn't think there's anything wrong with having Gardens workers wash her own 'personal' car. They usually 'talk' a good game - but that's pretty easy because most of them got their cards and a big pile of chips dealt them from their forebears. Tax away that inheritance and lets see how competitive such folks actually are.
Deal?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
hiring and firing
Stump I agree with you - those roles do belong in the hands of the employer. At last the light is coming through.
So if management wants to contract out some particular job, it should be free to do that, and not have to answer to some centralized union boss.
Also if Charlie thinks he can position bump some other unionized worker, just because he's been sitting at his desk the longest, management should be able to say no. And that decision should stick.
Unfortunately the protocols inside collective agreements create a very un-level playing field. It takes a very strong willed government manager to take the time needed to ensure justice is done. And even then the odds are stacked heavily against him/her.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
who is this JD
Wow this is a day for questions. First where is Jane Doe from, now who is she?
She's Jane Doe from around here; comprende?
BC Dude you may not have read my other posts on this topic, but I did say unions have a role in the larger workplace.
My point is that they are going too far in their demands for job security. There is no economic security, sales or client security.
I don't know if you are familiar with the market place but it is far from secure. Big business is ruthless. If you think they treat their employees bad should see how they treat their competition.
Anyway security doesn't exist and protection of workers that slack off, disrupt or in any other way create a negative work environment should not be written into labour agreements.
Take the fight to places that truly need help. You are fighting the wrong battle at the wrong time.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
is this for real -oh yes it is
I really think smoke signals or carrier pigeons really would fit better with this big hate on that you seem to have for big business.
You know you could take some of Lynn's Orange armbands, string 'em altogether and lower that PC and printer out the window and into the dumpster; you could feel much more righteous.
You could peddle your bike along the moral high ground all day long. (oh maybe not - bikes are a product of that same evil business empire)
I have no problem driving my car because I am middle ground on this stuff - I believe union has a place, not a dominant one of course, but a place. And so I can accept these products produced by the team of big business and their union friends.
Stump
4 years ago
So, in other words
It's the fault of incompetent management for signing onto agreements they can't work with?
You can't have it both ways.
No kidding. Gee, why would anyone want to have insurance against the predations of a ruthless employer? If big business wasn't ruthless, they wouldn't face these so-called problems you speak of.
Your argument has some flaws IMO.
Stump
4 years ago
Not exactly
No. They should abide by the collective agreement. AKA the contract. My understanding is you don't get far in business when you don't honour your contracts.
Stump
4 years ago
Here comes the red herring
BTW, you pedal bikes.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
checking the figures
Always a pleasure reading your posts and this one covers so many issues that are near and dear to me.
"... we have too few strong industrial unions and too few union members generally - and that's a big part of the problem"
Wrong and wrong - I will have to give you a failing grade there.
We need the union movement to find truly unfair situations and be the catalyst for change. Or better yet they should go international and come the aid of the workers in China.
Here in North America many (not all) unions have fought and won and they should be proud of their efforts.
Fleecing the tax-payer by bullying governments into ridiculous perks for their members is not a good moral fight.
As I said in another post - wrong fight, wrong place.
Using staff to wash your personal car is cheesy and tacky though nothing I can get excited about.
Now taxing inheritance money is something I can get excited about. How crazy is that.
I make some money, I pay the right amount of tax on it and now I want to pass it on to my children. You think I should be taxed again?
Why? Just because I have some money at the end of the day. Do you work in the loan shark business?
Utter nonsense. I tried to think of a more gentle phrase but couldn't
What we should be doing is slimming down government, and not by a few percent but orders of magnitude. Get them completely out of the service business, distribution business. I don't think they make things - do they? - if so get them out of that too.
They should be policy setters, contract managers, auditors of adherence to policy etc etc.
They do an average job in the delivery of services and unfortunately ultimately become the targets for overzealous union bosses whose job it is to define average and then make sure no one exceeds that performance level.
dr evil
4 years ago
slackers, disrupters and union busters
Dosee doe sweet jane she
now she did know the doin`s
all `bout who wuz slackin`
an who was doin` all da radical disruptin`
Gives `em all a dang good whackin`
And sends dem loafers on their way
so she say, she say so so she say
There no free lunch doesey say
for da slackers
an all da disrupters
global Market say same like she say
root out da lame
dis ole fart cain`t work harrrd no good
no more
time fer the glue factry
it a tough ole wurld out dere
lessen you see....
Abeit macht frei
work`ll set ya free
Skywalker
4 years ago
Reminds me.
It all reminds be of the American, can't remember his name, but he was an ultra conservative, who said, "I have nothing against government as long as it is small enough to drown in my bath tub." I guess Jane Doe wants the same for unions. Those uppity unions, you got to keep them in their place.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Stump
thank thank you for the spelling correction.
These damn spelling programs lull you into a sense of security and then drop you in it.
I too believe that contracts should be binding. I just want our governments to stop tying their own hands by giving away the management of labour to labour themselves. I want them to stop writing this into labour contracts.
As we agreed management should be in charge of all issues of hiring and firing, and also for deciding who should be promoted.
It might be a painful change for some labour groups, but that is a much more fair and healthy work environment.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Dosee doe
Dr Evil - you should think about the rap business - your handle could work there too.
However it is a competitive business so you might want to stay clear.
Now if the government ever gets into the rap business - well different story - you could be golden.
take care man
Jane Doe
4 years ago
skywalker
brilliant quote - thank you
I was only talking about downsizing government, but you might have an idea there.
Well done.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
you guys are brutal
I'm alone here - where is that very intelligent Realisticman.
Anyway it gives you all a chance to hone your skills. You will need it - the system we are in is here to stay - and if you ever take your fight to the street, in your orange armbands, you will need all the help you can get.
have fun
Stump
4 years ago
failure to effectively refute any of the points made
and misrepresenting other ones is a classic tactic when you're defending ideology at the expense of results.
The higher standard of living in heavily unionized countries won't convince you. The higher rates of worker satisfaction in union shops count for nothing. You're stuck defending an out-of-date philosophy with little regard for people as more than production units. Sucks to be you Jane.
G West
4 years ago
sorry jane
The figures are world economic forum figures and you obviously haven't taken the trouble to actually find and understand their comparative values.
I could post the links but, really, why bother? I'm not your gopher - as another intelligent individual once put it. You show absolutely no propensity for actual give and take and seem pretty much set in your ways.
So be it. In my view that's your loss - not mine.
dorothy
4 years ago
show me where that is
"Anyway security doesn't exist and protection of workers that slack off, disrupt or in any other way create a negative work environment should not be written into labour agreements."
Please show me one where it is.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
You have to read closer
I think I have said it so many times - unions have a place in this complex world of ours. Now can you say that about big business ?
The philosophy that is out of date here is the idea that some sections of the population can expect a cradle to grave experience delivered to them by large government.
The rest of the workforce should be up in arms about it. Talk to the young person flogging shoes in your local mall. I'm sure he or she would love to jump on board with these kind of government benefits.
Local trades people dislike being shut out of contracts by big unions. They think it is unfair trade practice. And they are right. This is the working man we are talking about here. And the fact that, that kind of un-level playing field is delivered by government suggests to me that unions have been allowed to push too far in this country.
So although I'm all in favour of collective bargaining, when we are talking large scale organizations, there limits on what should be bargained.
As I said wrong fight wrong place wrong time. Go for the real moral high ground and help some group that really diserves your help.
Remember the $80,000 high tech worker in CUPE - why are do you think this person needs protection. Quite a fair rate for a good senior programmer/architect. But not if they got to that level because they just happened to have been sitting in the same chair for many years (seniority rules)
PS I know a number of people living here from the Scandinavian countries that left there because of the putative tax rates needed to prop up the unproductive.
PPS no problem being me. I have a happy and fairly treated, non-union workforce.
G West
4 years ago
Who espouses this philosophy?
The only folks I know of who have a comfy cradle to grave 'experience' are the top 1 - 2% of the group I like to call the 'masters of the universe'.
And what they think is fun is to toss a few shekels for the rest of us to scrap over from time to time while they sit like gods and laugh about it...Folks like Bill Gates are a bit different - but not much - and they chief way to end this nonsense is to bust the trusts and tax the wealthy so they can prove once again they really have the 'right stuff'.
In my opinion, they don't and that's why they want the press to keep the lie going...and the peons enslaved
lynn
4 years ago
Strong and free
Jane Doe,
Moderate unions exist only because someone else did the hard fighting for you. That's why Skywalker's use of the word "parasitic" is bang on. You let someone else take the hard shelling of the frontline for you. You know, where all the risk is. Then you hide behind them, steal the spoils... and then you condemn those who made the sacrifices that allowed you to reap those benefits.
Now that's just funny. That's what we've been saying all along - we the people, the citizens of this province, are the ones supporting the system and yet we are losing our benefits and social services at an ever-escalating rate. Not to mention our human and civil rights.
The whole privatized system would implode without us. (as Canis Latrans stated earlier on another thread). So go ahead privatize everything - anything good left in our health and education systems is attributable to a public system that had the wisdom and good sense to value people over profits. When that thin veil of protection that still exists to some degree in our social sytem rips wide open - privatization will have nothing to hide behind. It will be totally exposed for the ugly, cruelly arrogant and ultimately suicidal con game that it is. And more than that it will be exposed for the massive failure that it is - its ultimate ineffectiveness to support any kind of real life, any meaningful existence on this earth.
"Crazy, union demands?" Your language gives you away, Jane Doe. What's so crazy about being able to make a decent enough wage to buy a house to raise your family in - in the same city that expects you to collect their garbage? I get it good enough to collect your garbage - but not good enough to afford a home.
You said "radical'. I said "strong". Though radical ain't all bad when you're fighting for your life. Sometimes radical action is necessary when no one is listening to you and you are up against the wall.
dorothy
4 years ago
no, no, they're real
"PS I know a number of people living here from the Scandinavian countries that left there because of the putative tax rates needed to prop up the unproductive."
The tax rates in Scandinavian countries are not 'putative', but solid fact. They are, however, not needed to prop up unproductive people. People in Scandinavia make up a well-trained work force and are highly productive. The reason taxes are higher is, that the Scandinavians live by a different philosophy than the mainstream North Americans. I won't say they are not rugged individualists, for they can be that too, but they are generally putting more big jobs into the bailiwick of government and less into the private sector. They are prepared to invest in the future on a scale we do not do. Pieces of land, for instance, designated for railroads or LRT, often get bought up decades ahead by governments, when they are first put up for 'disposal' for one reason or another, so there is no quick profit to be had for political friends of anyone when the time comes. They also pay much more into education of the next generation, and into health care and other such things. In other words: they invest in future stability. Here we are more inclined to trust in whatever Gods we subscribe to, and do things by the seat of our pants. This works in an amazing proportion of cases. So if you check the World Values Survey, you will find the Scandinavians on top of most ratings, but Canada is not far below. It looks as if the main reason we rank lower is our conservatism and that we are a bit higher on the religiosity scale.
I cannot say what the stories are of your particular Scandinavian references, but having grown up in that part of the world myself, I can say I did not leave due to the tax rates, but because I did not think there was enough 'wide open spaces', not to mention mountains. In other words, I felt sure I was genetically predisposed to greater expanses, and that turned out to be true. I feel at home here.
You did not answer my question. Can you identify a collective agreement, which gives protection to people, who are negative, disruptive and unwilling to work?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Philosophy gone wrong
West - you seem to see the world as a dichotomy - as though there are only two levels : the rich business owner and the down-trodden serfs working for him.
We have a multilayer, rich and vibrant society here in Canada that is a mix of many social and economic levels.
Walk in downtown Vancouver on a week day and watch the happy people on their lunch break - snacking on sushi, buying shoes on Robson, whatever. Eh some are no doubt government workers. A healthy and complex society.
Most people in the world would love to be part of this show. And as we know many world surveys have concluded the same.
Now go down to the DTE and look down there. This is where the battle ground should be. This is where the moral high ground is.
As I said before wrong fight, wrong place. Is CUPE's grasping for ever richer "non-monetary" benefits really where you want to fight.
Lets get an armband for the seriously poor person living with mental illness on the harsh streets. There is one band I would cheerfully subscribe to.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Dorothy
Your question was:
"..Can you identify a collective agreement, which gives protection to people, who are negative, disruptive and unwilling to work"?
I think you missed my point. Union contract wording around no layoffs, bumping rights etc are there to protect all workers whether they are good, poor or just indifferent.
I have witnessed a number of workers that are poor team players, slackers and just general muck stirrers. Their coworkers don't think much of them either.
However the time and effort needed for management to weed them out and fire them, often precludes anything being done. The department usually handles it by going around them, avoiding them.
Bad management?
Yes and no. The managers in government don't get paid enough for the hassle, and often simply don't have the time to wade through the clever web of contract wording created by union leaders.
The best thing is not cave into the union's demands for more control over these aspects of running a business or government department. Get them out of the contract wording and certainly make sure they don't slip back in.
vicki
4 years ago
For Dorothy
I think you are being obtuse and literal Dorothy, can't think why you feel it's necessary.
I read Jane's post carefully and I thought she was making a pretty general comment. Nowhere did she suggest that any wording in a collective agreement specifically covered workers who were negative, disruptive or lazy. Nor did she ascribe such characteristics to the majority of workers. Nor did she say all CEO's or managers in the private sector are saints.
What she said is that the collective agreement by its very nature, protects everyone within the bargaining unit equally, which invites abuse.
Perhaps Jane, like myself, has worked in a unionized environment where people have displayed those characteristics but the employer was unable to take action. I draw your attention to the following case. Sure, it's extreme but guys like this do not deserve protection of a collective agreement.
Over a period of a year, XXXXXXX, who worked for the Ville-St-Laurent public works, now part of the mega-union of Montreal, earned 6 suspensions after which he was fired.
He threw a billiard ball through a wall at the public works building and when a foreman wanted to talk about the violent surge, he told the foremen to go (expletive deleted) himself.
He helped organize an illegal wild-cat strike that paralyzed city traffic. He told a foreman that “war had been declared” and that the foreman would have difficult going to the toilet.
He verbally abused a female foreman because a student worker was in the city arena without steel-toe boots.
He dropped a noose on a foreman’s desk and chuckled malevolently about his plans for its use.
Because of the collective agreement, this man is still on the job. That is what I think Jane was getting at. Do you really believe that every union member has the right to destroy property, harass colleagues and threaten death without fear of losing his or her job?
I have worked for 3 unions in my career and could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. Very much on par with what I've also witnessed in the private sector. For every ugly CEO we can find an ugly union member, hiding behind the protection of the collective agreement. Let's not pretend it does not exist.
dr evil
4 years ago
you jane me....
...some unions do support the DTES its just not widely publicized or known.
As a now retired former 1st vice Pres. of a PPWC local (3) (Now disbanded the mill closed..being dismantled and moved to China)...we were constantly asked by just about every charity going for contributions...which we tried to accommodate as much as possible. Plus many members also contributed privately.
But yes...the big unions have neglected those under them..the poor and homeless...being under assault as they have been they`ve encircled like a herd of muskox to try and not lose any more ground. Self protection. The rest can sink or swim.
One of the best letters I`ve read was from the leader of an Anti-Poverty group in Victoria when the initial cuts to the disabled were being done..lambasting the Big Unions and T.U.B.S. (Trade Union Bureaucrats) for leaving the helpless and cutting their own self serving deals.
But its not about cradle to grave security..its about contracting out....big difference.
We in the forest industry have been well aware of lack of job security...market turndown...price of pulp drops..we don`t work. They`d shut down until the prices came up. No union pay either. No sick pay. Strikes..we`d get fifteen ..yes 15 bucks a week and a case of beer a week.
Your last couple of posts were pretty good...and Dorothy and Lynns replies were excellent.
So..I apologize for the bad rap song..
You got heart.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:As I said wrong fight
The role of the union is to represent its workers. Not cure AIDS in Africa or stop organ harvesting in China. Tell you what, since big business is the home of the smart and creative... get that cohort to lead the way by example before you start harping on unions to save the world.
dorothy
4 years ago
"Because of the collective
"Because of the collective agreement, this man is still on the job."
What clause in the collective agreement prevented progressive discipline, and charges being laid? This must be some fantastic agreement. I hope to hear the specifics, and I am not being 'obtuse', but to the point, literal if you will, which is the deal in the working world. If you want to talk the talk, you must be willing to walk the walk and not whine about it.
Even better:
"I have worked for 3 unions in my career and could tell you stories that would make your hair curl."
That's more than what any perm has ever been able to - bring it on, I say!
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:For every ugly CEO we
Let's not also pretend it's a failing of the system. Bad individuals are in our society, from football players to priests. No reason to abandon solutions that work for the vast majority. Is this an accurate parallel... Would you outlaw public defenders because one of them managed to get a not-guilty plea for a person who was actually guilty?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Stump
Funny you should mention that but that is exactly what is starting to happen. The Buffets and the Gates are just the tip on an iceberg.
But when large corporation do give back, usually some group on this board criticizes that as wrong headed, or trivial or mis guided.
How about Nicholas Negroponte, founder and chairman of the One Laptop per Child non-profit association. He was head of MIT media labs for years, big speaker on the corporate circuit. Sounds like he's giving back. He's wearing the wrong badge.
But someone on this board will probably dump on that effort.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Dr E.
I think we are on the same page when it comes to helping the right groups.
Big business has problems, big unions have problems and I don't wish to support either.
dorothy
4 years ago
Aha!
"I think you missed my point. Union contract wording around no layoffs, bumping rights etc are there to protect all workers whether they are good, poor or just indifferent."
That would be true, and so it is up to managers to do what they are annoyed that workers supposedly 'can get away with' not doing: live up to the terms of the job description they agreed to follow, in other words, live up to the contract they willingly entered into.
You want to be able to hire people carelessly and throw them out, when it turns out they aren't team players. It should be easier to do so, you say, but you knew when you took the job that it wasn't easier, and so you must learn to exercise better judgment in who you hire in the first place. While you figure out you have bought a lemon, your good workers are living in Hell, trying to pick up the slack for the slacker. Do you care? There is generally a probation period, where you should be able to 'get people's number'. Are you listening to input from the factory floor?
If you can tell me you have never seen a person who aced it in the workshop and was a sweetheart to work with being given the going-over and an attempt at the boot by a manager with personal hang-ups, I'll forgive you for not knowing, why these protective clauses are in the contracts, but I doubt you can say honestly, that you have never witnessed such a thing. Ergo you can stop wondering whether you can sneak up on those very fundamental provisions and dispose of them. Not even most employers are that dumb.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:Funny you should
But is it their duty (charitable works and advocacy in non-labour matters)... as you seem to imply it should be for unions?
Lots of unions make donations to charities and lots of unions are helping the less fortunate and oppressed. That doesn't mean those acts should be mandatory.
lynn
4 years ago
Real Life
I luv ya for saying that, Dorothy. Brilliant.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Aha - what?
I am talking about people for which the three months probation has expired by ten years. Perhaps they missed a job promo somewhere along the way but now they are just a pain to work with.
However they know their rights and they know exactly where the edges of that security blanket, that the union has encased them in, are. They know just how hard to push and when to back off.
I hope this helps. I'm afraid your last paragraph left me a tad confused so I wont try to address it.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
Actually aren't you the one declaring that the world is an unfair place with no job security and that we all need to learn that? Here's a thought, instead of giving your kids an inheritance why not kick the little nippers out the door when they hit 10 years old and tell them to find a job? It'll teach them self-reliance instead of living off you and since I know you hate hypocrisy you won't delay.
As for why don't unions go to China? Allow me to educate you. Unions are made up of workers. If our workers leave to set up unions in the 3rd world they'll lose their jobs and miss their friends and families. Besides, I doubt Liberia is hiring.
I know its anecdotal but my observations lead me to believe that half the people that hate unions the most are people that think golfing with the boss is a better indicator of how good a person is at their job than seniority. And the other half of course are those who hate the fact their uncle can't promote them over the guy that's been putting in 25 years.
Of course nepotism and suckholing are words the political Right don't comprehend, they prefer to use phrases like
Frank
4 years ago
Vicki
I used to work at a job where the new guy next to me came in late almost every singe day except mondays because he usually called in sick. When he did get in he regaled me with tales of his social life, his favourite tv programs, supermodels, stuff he did in high school etc. All very entertaining. Strangely, instead of getting fired he got promoted and became my boss. No he didn't have union protection, I only worked in one union job in my life and that was as a janitor out of high school, he had something even better. He was closely related to the owner. Jane's right of course, seniority should not be allowed to trump ability. What a laugh.
Frank
4 years ago
Cycling Commuter
Cycling Commuter wants the business of the city conducted by referendums.
I agree CC, let's make all contracts with workers subject to referendum. Then all other decisions including permits. Because if its a great idea for union contracts its probably even a better idea for deciding who gets to sell ice cream in Stanley Park.
I love this guy's posts. Always some pie in the sky idea that has no relationship to logic, logistics or reality.
Frank
4 years ago
Working Man and Jane and CC
A little link I know you guys will want to read twice.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/60950/?page=2
I noticed while I was reading it that it never blamed Iraq war profiteering on the NDP or unions. Strange eh? Something in the world that was bad and yet not caused by the NDP or a union.
In fact, the whole mess seemed to be caused by private companies milking the taxpayer. I know its hard to believe but there it is. Perhaps the National Post will pick up the story soon and you'll read it.
vicki
4 years ago
Stump/Dorothy/Frank
Stump, I don't know where the analogy comes from... I would not wish to outlaw unions for supporting toxic employees: nor would I wish to outlaw business leaders because of the antics of a Conrad Black or Bernie Ebbers. I just meant there is blame on both sides, something a lot of posters here can't or won't admit for idealogical reasons. I bet I'd know you. I watched, much too close for comfort, as thousands of forest workers were laid off back in the day. I was stunned that rural BC was left holding the bag: families devastated, communities ripped apart. Nothing from the teachers or CUPE. I guess they felt it didn't affect them. Depends whose ox is being gored.
As for your comment to Jane about unions representing workers, not finding a cure for AIDS... well, I beg to disagree. We often see unions put their names to political movements or issues that have nothing to do with their members. In fact, their members often rebuke them for it.
Dorothy: I feel for your hair thing. But I think I'll take my secrets to the grave. As I said, I worked for unions: not unionized employers. Well I guess I did that too, but I was exempt.
Frank: not sure what you meant. I guess you're making the same point I am, that there is neoptism and stupidity on both sides?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Frank
Frank you must have mistaken me for someone that hates unions. You need to re-read my posts.
I just don't like what I see happening in this current CUPE stike, and their negotiation for ever more protection from economic reality.
We all share in the upturns and downturns - that's life.
Must have been a real bummer working next to some bosses relative. Do you think it has scarred you for life? Tainted your views a bit. Caused you to stand up for causes that really aren't causes and don't need your help.
Anyway whatever it is you stand for - good luck with that.
vicki
4 years ago
Stump and Dr. E
Sorry, the comment about knowing you was meant for Dr.Evil, formerly with the PPWC.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Too many negative posts
You guys need to lighten up a bit, It's a beautiful world outside your door. Many many people are thriving here in the city.
We need to help those that truly aren't. We just can't agree on who those people are. To me it is obvious.
But when you have been worshiping at the union alter for long enough you start to think that only union members have problems, and that is so far from the truth.
So put down the Solidarity hymnbook and the orange arm bands and look to see who really does need helping here in the city. You may find it is not the ones you think.
G West
4 years ago
Yep! that's pretty much it
.
With the exception of small businesses - who employ most of the people - and they're just as much in the pocket of the big fellas as the consumer is janey.
That's pretty much the way it goes. 80% of families today - and probably more than that - are either falling back badly or killing themselves working like idiots just to tread water while the big fellas clip coupons. Never wondered why those lottery tickets are so popular? You should catch up on your Orwell....
I asked you to read that study - the one you said was a 3000 page diatribe (it wasn't) and you didn't.
Better try and get up to speed cause you're out of the picture on this scene.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
out of the picture
Westy - the picture is very clear you just can't accept it and work within it. You're an idealist, and nothing wrong with that when you're young, but I suspect you are not young and so it must be naivety talking. You have to pick up the rose coloured glasses once in a while. Your views, though well meaning, are depressing.
Anyway in one of your posts you were rapping with the faithful, when you said "... we are pretty good at defining the problems but not very good at doing anything about them"
Can't quite agree with you on the first part of the sentence but I agree with you on last.
I know you have hit bottom when you start to try to force your favoured reports down someones throat.
Take off those murky depressing glasses and maybe the picture will become more clear for you.
Armchair revolutionary. You should call Lynn, get one of those orange armbands and hit the streets.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
I didn't read anything pro-union in your posts except that 100 years ago they did a few good things. What did I miss?
Why wouldn't they want that? You're against inheritance taxes because you want to shield family members from the same economic reality. Why not just teach them well so they can thrive on their own without your help?
No we don't, but that sounds like a Marxist statement.
Actually it was a lark, I thought I was clear about that.
Yes definitely, because of him the only time I would want to work for someone else anymore is if I was good friends with the boss like back then.
Like the Roughriders and Canucks, you bet.
dr evil
4 years ago
re-pulper
The old Woodfibre bleach plant was starting to settle..pipes were always breaking..some emitting chlorine gas some sulphuric acid..and other wonderful substances..we had a German "supervisor" (how I love that word "supervisor") who actually dressed sort of Rommellian..the desert Fox hat and green
duds. He`d stand in a cloud of Chlorine Gas without a mask and proclaim "Vy are you all running..it doesn`t bother me"?
One time a union guy coldcocked him and was dragging him to the re-pulper pit on the Graveyard shift determined to heave him in..you had to go up some steps and another union guy intercepted him and saved the supervisors life.
The re-pulper is known as "the beater"
It contains very hot water and huge paddles which mash the off grade pulp up for re processing.
The guy got fired. The supervisor later was promoted to a superintendant and decided one Christmas to shut down and lay everybody off...without steam to keep `er warm...a sudden freeze up caused millions in damages and he was fired.
You just never know about those union guys.
G West
4 years ago
janey
either read the report and TRY to understand, or join the growing phanlanx of people who are just unhappy all the time.
Perhaps you forget it was you who posted the nonsense list including your phony point about Armine Yalnizyan's report: THE RICH AND THE REST OF US.
I know you're not the type who'd criticize a report without reading it...especially one that the Globe and Mail couldn't find any holes in.
You can check it out.
And here's another link to the pdf:
http://policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2007/The_Rich_and_the_Rest_of_Us.pdf
In case you decide you'd actually like to begin to appreciate why I said we're beginning to understand the problem but we're not sure yet what to do about it.
By the way, it's only 54 pages long.
Think you can handle that?
G West
4 years ago
I do this as often as I'm in Vancouver
I disagree with your description. Most of the people I meet on the street are clearly unhappy, angry, driven people. They, almost to a man or woman, refuse to make eye contact, never smile and, when I wish them good day - look at me as if I'm a raving loony.
One day why not try showing up for lunch at the offices of Van Fasken Dumoulin to meet your lawyer and try that smiley face stuff. You'll get a whole different feeling there on the gray wool carpet with the rosewood furniture around you about what's going on with the masters of the universe.
In fact, if you turn around you'll see the names of all the firms Van Fasken represents, each chastely engraved on its own little brass plate. The strings are all tied into nice neat bows jane; and they don't lead back to citizens like you and me - ever.
As to who and what I am, what I do, etc., you are so far off base it isn't even laughable so please stop the childishness and try to deal with what I'm writing and leave the pop psychology to Oprah and Dr Phil.
Or not. It is entirely up to you.
G West
4 years ago
Sam's strike
This may be somewhat helpful:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070905/vancouver_garbage_070905/20070905?hub=Canada
Though there seems to be a lot of agreement that Sam himself isn't...helpful that is.
What a disaster for Vancouver...good that the Economist came out with their little encomium before the strike really started to bite. Casting one's mind back to that and similar idle bumpf it's not hard to imagine that the next profile of the city may be little more than fulsome praise.
Stump
4 years ago
Jane
You're down to off-topic asides and attacking the messenger. Did you have anything of substance to add?
dorothy
4 years ago
Vicki, Vicki...
“Dorothy: I feel for your hair thing. But I think I'll take my secrets to the grave. As I said, I worked for unions: not unionized employers. Well I guess I did that too, but I was exempt.
Frank: not sure what you meant. I guess you're making the same point I am, that there is neoptism and stupidity on both sides?”
Dishonest gabble! You don’t have any hair-raising story to tell, so you try to get smart about my supposed looks. If you read the Tyee a little broader, you would know my views on ‘bad hair days’. Your assertions here are cheap, and you should have rather not said anything than insulting everyone by bringing things down to the bitch-level.
Equally neatly done with usurping Frank's statements and painting them over with you own self-serving prattle. For your sake, I hope it's not true that you don't know what he means. I feel for people who have to make their way in the world with so little to back them up.
Why is it that some people can't just gracefully own up to having been caught with their underwear down around their heels, but get catty and condescending? You should work on that, people would like you better...
dorothy
4 years ago
Next lesson
"I am talking about people for which the three months probation has expired by ten years. Perhaps they missed a job promo somewhere along the way but now they are just a pain to work with.
However they know their rights and they know exactly where the edges of that security blanket, that the union has encased them in, are. They know just how hard to push and when to back off."
SO, you are complaining that people work to the exact terms of the contract, that they do know their limits, i.e. their rights, but also, alas, their obligations.
That is not a legitimate complaint. Some agency entered into that contract, ratified it, and you are complaining that people live up to it. What kind of anarchist are you? It's called the Rule of Law. If you cannot establish a foundation for progressive discipline, because these workers do not violate the contract, it don't matter one iota, whether you personally like them or not. But your aspirations show precisely why there is a need for a contract. Your kind needs the letter of the law to keep them within their limits.
vicki
4 years ago
Dorothy. I suggested your
Dorothy. I suggested your post as offensive.
This is a ridiculous, undeserved harangue of someone who made a perfectly reasonable comment. It was obvious to anyone that I was being light with you: as I thought you were being with me. If this is the level of 'discussion' on this board, it borders on the juvenile. Do you really think this is the place to give you a blow by blow of details of what I have witnessed over a 30--year career?
As for usurping Frank's statements with my 'prattle' .... I was agreeing with him!
Please take a little more care when you read what people are saying. This is a rather ridiculous personal attack.
alive
4 years ago
great discussion
great discussion here!
Interesting how some have a misconception of how the average citizen lives:
yeah Happy people indeed who can afford to buy anything on Robson!
It is not longer Robson Strasse where the occasional bargain was available!
so, If the Yuppies are your idea of avarage citizens, no wonder they are happy!
However the media also make their "Man-in-the-street" stories on Robson, so no wonder they get a skewed view of things!
About all the people who are envious of unionized workers: quit beefing and organize!
About Scandinavia: Dorothy hits it bang on!
It is called long term planning instead of the knee-jerk planning we see here!
If the "human relation departments" in the big firms actually had any power to rectify problems, then perhaps there would be fewer disgruntled workers?
please think about it before you reply!
Frank
4 years ago
Unions
In my opinion a workplace without a union may be what the Right calls "flexible" but it also happens to bear a close resemblance to a Hobbesian state of nature where the workplace is governed by the whim of the boss.
A union workshop on the other hand is run by the rule of law. The law being the contract between workers and owners. Doesn't mean its perfect, far from it sometimes, but it should be easy to tell why many prefer the rule of law over the whim of "Bill" or whoever.
Secondly, many say a union shop creates an adversarial relationship between the workers and management whereas in a non-union shop no such relationship exists. On the surface this sounds plausible but isn't the lack of the adversarial relationship in a non-union shop due more to the fact that unhappy people either quit or are fired? Perhaps feudalism was better than democracy since it too lacked an adversarial relationship between owners and serfs?
I don't believe a cowed workplace is better than one where the worker can stand up to his boss and give his input without thinking it'll be his last day. Seems like a healthier and more dynamic workplace to me, capable of better progress than one where the good people left while waiting for "Bill" to change his mind.
As for labour laws meaning unions are now redundant, that might be true if in fact those labour laws were enforced in the spirit in which they were written. But they aren't. Anyone who has ever been fired or has tried to get backpay owed to them or whatever knows those laws have no teeth and serve the employer more than the employed. If a person gets fired for refusing to do something not in the job description good luck. The labour laws are written in such a way that proving you weren't fired for just cause would be a waste of time unless you were wealthy enough to fight it in court.
And as an aside, it was mentioned that CEO's create wealth and drive the economy. Where did you read this? I think you're mixing up CEO's with entrepreneurs. CEO's are often simply parachuted into their job after getting their MBA's, they have no history with the company and they certainly don't create wealth or drive the economy. That's what the workers do.
Quoting CEO's on the usefulness of unions is like quoting wives about the usefulness of hockey.
David Beers
4 years ago
Dorothy, Vicki, let it rest, please
Enough personal insults and bickering between the two of you. It brings down the tone of the thread and we are striving for something better these days at The Tyee. Thanks.
dr evil
4 years ago
Frank
yeah..thats what I was tryin` to say.
Great post man...right on! What used to really bug me was the waste of talent on the shop floor. Talent and ability was more often as not seen as a threat by management and to do ok it was best to "dumb down". For some of us that wasn`t hard..but there was a huge amount of brainpower wasted that could have saved the "company" big bucks.
janet666
4 years ago
tommy can you hear me?
helllloooo, unions don't care about the poor in this town, if they did, many things would have changed by now. you also seem to forget that a lot of resource workers, fishermen, steelworkers, dockworkers, forest workers etc. have ended up in the downtown streets. alcoholism is a rampant disease, drugs go with it.
there could be union housing all over the place, but you self absorbed union boys are too busy playing politics. you'd sell out your own mother, if you haven't pretty much done that already. you do nothing, until it gets so bad, that people will vote for the ndp in desperation.
don't forget, the unions run the ndp in bc, or is it the other way around. yeah, solidarity! is only one example of your betrayal, so many others, like the promises made to the grass roots environmental movement that helped get harcourt elected. those people got so pissed off, they started the green party, so when you lost to that smarmy adrienne carr, you were getting just desserts,
Frank
4 years ago
tommy can you hear me???
In other words all the problems of the world are for unions to fix. Not other people or capitalism in general, just the 30% or so of the workers who have unionized. Blame them and the NDP for everything. The old right-wing mantra.
So unions are responsible for poverty, not business or government or capitalism in general. Unions are responsible for the lack of housing, not business and government. Unionists sell our mothers into slavery etc.
Janet, with all due respect your post makes no sense. I think you've lost your temper and your ability to reason and are now wildly slinging mud. And as I said earlier I'm not sure you know what a union is.
Frank
4 years ago
dr evil, dorothy
Thankee kindly
dr evil
4 years ago
flailing madly
yup janet..bits and pieces flyin` all over the place.
Hey look...your 666 and I`m dr evil.. maybe a match made in hell.. why not take a few deep breaths
and tell dr evil allll `bout it...perhaps what ails ya is of a Faustian nature.
Meetcha at the crossroads you can tell the good dr alll `bout it...girl you can lay your troubles down.
dr evil
4 years ago
mephisto waltz
Best union I was ever in was the Posties.
Those boys and girls really knew how to party.
First day on the job "Biff" the shop steward comes along "Need a ride to the meeting Tuesday night?...we`ll pick ya up"
After to the Waldorf to quaff a few..
Jane Doe
4 years ago
David Beers
David - your assistance on this board is essential, as it very quickly sinks into abuse.
However I have re-read the postings of the two people involved and clearly there is only one person that is being rude here and that is Dorothy.
[Edited for CONTINUED BICKERING AND CHILDISHNESS. -Tyee editor]
So please we also need fairness on this board
dorothy
4 years ago
aware and awake
"...you also seem to forget that a lot of resource workers, fishermen, steelworkers, dockworkers, forest workers etc. have ended up in the downtown streets..."
Unions have not forgotten this. Shop stewards worth their salt have those always in the back of their mind as a painful reminder, that sometimes we can, as
Norman Bethune said, fight for a just cause, give it everything we have - and not win.
It is in order to not send more people into those straits, that people volunteer their services for a union and work their butts off for long hours with nary a penny for it, because they know what lies on the other side of that managerial caprice, that new brainchild for maximizing profits, but oops, it failed, really just another kind of incompetence, which is somehow mysteriously seen as legitimate: it's SO HARD being in charge...
There are some fights that got lost; there are also countless ones that were won, but they don't hit the press, except when somebody is choking on the rules and regs.
I can only repeat what I've said before: union dues is real money, for which you could have gotten something else, had you seem it as more important. The facts speak for themselves.
dr evil
4 years ago
Dorothy your scaring the folks
Oh Dorothy Behave!
In all seriousness Dorothys contributions to this board are always refreshing ..original..witty..and sometimes...very ..mysterious
Rock on Dorothy.
dr evil
4 years ago
Jane Doe
Maybe you should e-mail Mr. Beers privately with your concerns Jane.
Just a suggestion.
G West
4 years ago
jane doe?
Perhaps I could refer you back to your little list of few days ago. Or almost anything you've posted to or about me and my views. Remember those?
Would that be a proper place to begin a discussion about decorum and manners?
On reaps, generally, what one sows. I'll await your apology.
lynn
4 years ago
Tie an orange ribbon 'round that old oak tree
Jane Doe,
Okay, so far you've told us to give up our computers, our orange citizen rights ribbons and our Solidarity.
How oh-so-innocently "disarming" of little ol' "moderate" you. A good try but no cigar.
What is so threatening, anyway, about an orange ribbon supporting citizen rights?
George Monbiot has a theory on that (August 2007):
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/08/07/this-is-now-a-protest-for-democracy/
Frank wrote:
That quote almost makes me believe there is such a thing as a "best" comment. ;-)
lynn
4 years ago
P. S.
Rock on Dorothy.
Much agree here with the eminent dr. evil.
I also think both Dorothy and Stump have displayed great patience on this thread in having to incessantly explain to both Ms. Doe and Ms. vicki what a union is all about.
vicki
4 years ago
Lynn-- give me a break.
I've told you guys before that I've worked for 3 unions: on staff. That more than qualifies me to have an opinion, even if it doesn't always coincide with yours.
I'll say it again, so you all know. I am not anti-union. I am not pro-corporations. I am not pro-globalization. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not a right-wing fascist.
I am here because I am willing to listen, and learn and may have more in common with you than you think. So please quit pouncing indiscriminately when people challenge your world view. I thought this was about dialogue. If I'm wrong and it's an exclusive club for people who agree with each other, then Mr. Beers should say so.
Stump
4 years ago
LOL
We've let you post misinformation, ad hominem attacks, general nonsense, and the usual neo-con talking points that make me think you're just another shill in a long, pathetic line of paid shills, here to muddy the waters of debate with inaccurate claptrap.
You've responded to clear, concise explanations of the problems with your viewpoint by twisting around what was said -- to try (emphais on try) to make it seem as though your points are being agreed with. But, you fail to acknowledge or apologize for that tactic.
Don't know how much more fair we can be.
One place you can find a truly free market is in the land of ideas. But no one is buying what you're selling, namely a return to oppression and exploitation. What would a smart business-person do?
Stump
4 years ago
By "we've" I refer to all
By "we've" I refer to all the other posters (I have no connection to the Tyee) who have engaged Jane Doe instead of begging Mr Beers to add a "suggest as stupid" button to handle misinformation and red herrings.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Jane Doe 1hour ago You are
Jane Doe 1hour ago
You are like a little person who goes and tattles to teacher.
Labour and Freedom are under attack by our own elected officials and courts.
Unions are definitely needed now more than ever to take these SPP corporations down!
There are 10 Corporations from Canada and 10 from Mexico and good old UsA gets 15 Corporations.
Canada's 10 as I only remember these three
Campbell’s Soup Corporation
Home Depot
Scotia Bank
Start by Boycotting these 10, and I've started wearig my orange arm band!
BC Dude
4 years ago
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06N
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
lynn
4 years ago
vicki
Not an exclusive club at all, vicki. I think you should stay.
Stump, however, is making an important point about real dialogue and most of us that post here are quite aware of the ministry of paid shills that now haunt the media fields of this province...with the intention to distract, misinform, confuse and neutralize the debate.
vicki wrote:
Yet on another thread you posted this quote from the fellow at the Wharton School of Business that you said you much admire:
I think he makes a very good case.
So if you are not pro-corporation or pro-globalization how will the above be accomplished when the quote clearly states "the jobs will come mainly from corporate business ventures" and "that poverty will be solved with vibrant economic activity driven mostly by the private sector"?
Off to celebrate a friend's birthday -
vicki
4 years ago
Lynn
I can't seem to get this across.
I see potential solutions to local and global problems coming from many different sectors and I won't apologise for that. Maybe you're just used to pigeon-holing people as being on one 'side' or another... a lot of people who consider themselves thoughtful and compassionate, as I think you are, fit somewhere in the middle.
I like the sound of a lot of people who post here (including GWest and Jane Doe)even if I don't agree with everything they say. And I don't think that 'neutralizes' anything.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
hello
Well that little note certainly seemed to rattle a few cages - must have criticized one of the faithful.
West - apology? for what one has to ask. And the list I posted seems more appropriate than ever. Wish I had kept a copy.
Lynn - the orange ribbons just provided me a springboard for for a little gaiety. Also tied in nicely with lowering the products of the evil empire down into the trash. Works for me; sorry you couldn't enjoy it.
Stump - no mis-information posted by me - would you recognize it if you saw it? Think outside the box once in a while - it's refreshing. Nice to see your second post disconnecting yourself from the throng.
BC Dude - labour is free to sell itself to the highest bidder. The only curtailment of freedom is by - dare I say the U-word?
Someone mentioned shilling - not here - just interested in free speech.
Good that was easier than I thought.
Perhaps we can now get down to serious discussion of the issues. However, as you have probably noticed, I don't share your views on all topics.
None of my notes have been rude, a little ridicule here and there maybe but very civil.
Sounds like there is a shared value system here, bordering on faith, which makes it difficult for you all to even read a diametric viewpoint. Tough.
dorothy
4 years ago
perhaps...
"I've told you guys before that I've worked for 3 unions: on staff. That more than qualifies me to have an opinion, even if it doesn't always coincide with yours."
It qualifies you to have an opinion; the question is about what. About unions as employers, OK. And I have invited you to relate your experiences, which you cannot keep on evoking without specifying what they are. You seem to cast aspersions on all unions, because you, regrettably, have had bad experiences with some particular ones. Surely you can see the unfairness in that? Your reasoning here is the kind that leads to all manner of prejudice and -isms.
I can 'take' opinions not coinciding with my own, as you will see in many writings of mine, if you care to look. I have even been known to apologize sincerely, when it was warranted, as well as respond favorably to requests for accountability about my opinions and why I hold them. But don't hold your breath here in this case. It was not I, who ran to the 'authoritah' and tried to make him make the holder of an opposite opinion mind. Debate has rules and laws of its own, and if you are not willing to follow them, you must take your lumps.
dorothy
4 years ago
well whuptidoo...
"Sounds like there is a shared value system here, bordering on faith"
Scary indeed, must kill! Destroy them utterly!
Some day, if we don't watch that shared set of values, and the budding faith, we might have a nation - brrrrh!
Stump
4 years ago
a slice of misinformation
I didn't agree with that statement. You saying so is clearly misinformation. Thanx for giving us all the opportunity to point out the errors in your assumptions. I'm done.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:BC Dude - labour is
I'm sorry, but you'll have to point out where in any collective agreement on the planet a person isn't free to leave their job and take a better paying one elsewhere.
Are you really that obtuse? My goodness, no wonder the union movement continues to grow... its critics are woefully in error again and again.
Now I'm really done.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
free to leave
No problem with what you are saying here Stump. I was referring the the restrictive practices that some unions manage to establish. Example back in the abysmal NDP days in this province there was a time when the only people that could bid on government construction was union firms.
Sounds like that might truncate the ability of your local non-union construction company.
Or how about the sacred "no-contracting out" clauses that union likes to build in - little restrictive don't you think?
Doesn't sound like freedom to me. Sounds more like one group of working people trying to keep out another group of working people from sharing the pie.
Your previous note said "I'm done" - does that mean you're exhausted, a little tired, or just plain out of ideas?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
well whuptidoo?
Dorothy - I'm sure you have moments of pure clarity - this isn't one of them.
I truthfully have no idea what you are tying to say.
I will happily respond if there is any substance.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Stump
Sorry I just noticed that I missed your salient point about hiring and firing and promotion etc.
So I am the manager of a company and people get hired based on skills and experience, fired (rarely) but could be for a slew of reasons.
Promotion is based on ability in the current job and my ( and others ) estimation of their chances of success of doing the next one up the chain. NOT how long they have been taking up space.
CUPE on the other hand would like all that based on seniority.
Now is that misinformed? It is based on lots of years of experience. I could talk to a lot of other people in industry for which these statements would ring true.
However this board, like the unions, seem to have a problem with rewarding ability.
So before you accuse me of misinformation check your facts. It may not be what you want to believe, but I can't help you there.
cheers
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
You prefer freedom for the boss but not the worker over a workplace governed by the rule of law. Fair enough.
I assume you feel the same way about society in general making you an extreme libertarian and very much against government (which you agreed should be drowned in a bathtub).
Sure, its a point of view I don't agree with nor do most people but at least you're not dangerous.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
I'm sure that happens all the time in fantasy-land. In the real world people are promoted after 1 year on the job ahead of people that have been there 5 years because managers like them better, in many cases because they're already a friend or relative. Wouldn't want a union getting in the way of that cozy relationship though.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
let the good times roll
Good news folks - you can all stop worrying now about the sky falling.
In todays Vancouver Sun - may not be your favorite news source but I trust they are not giving us misinformation.
Two things actually:
"let the good times roll. British Columbia can expect continued prosperity despite a tight labour market." That sounds pretty good, but it gets better.
"Real estate sales across the Lower Mainland continued their upward trend through August".
Tight labour market - good for workers -its the old law of supply and demand.
People buying and selling houses - this can't just be the rich - has to include a lot of ordinary folks.
So I just though I would like to share that with the kind people of this board.
Frank
4 years ago
Good times
It gets even better. The 3 provinces to the east of us are doing as well or better and 2 of them have NDP governments. Woo-hoo!
Not only is the sky not falling in Saskatoon and Winnipeg I've never been to places with bigger skies.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Frank
I don't know where you have worked, but if it is important that a job get done well - which is important to me ( and most companies where profit is a bottom line) - I want the most skilled person.
There are people that I wouldn't promote if they had been there 15 years. You know what I am saying.
You really think that this kind of promotion, based on ability, is "fantasy land"?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
good time
One word Frank - resources
Alberta - Oil
Saskatchewan - Uranium (now that is who-hoo)
Lucky the NDP are in power in 2 - they can grab some of the glory.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
Which kinda makes us even wouldn't you agree?
Yes. For example, let's assume Dorothy had worked for you for 15 years. I somehow doubt that you would look beyond the fact you hate her and promote her when you could instead promote somebody you actually liked. I have worked in enough places to know everyone in a workplace don't all hang out with each other. There are lots of personality clashes. And personality differences affect the workplace. Agreed?
No, just not as prevalent as job promotion (and initial hiring) based on shall we say more "human" factors.
If non-emotional robots ever rule the world I'll believe hiring,. firing and promotions are not affected by personalities and emotions.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
Two words Jane, nice try.
I doubt BC would ever accuse anyone else of profiting from resources since its a major driver of the entire BC economy.
Let's play a game, multiple choice, your answers can be either "A" : Resource or "B" : Great Liberal policy, okay?
1. Lumber
2. Fishing
3. Mining
4. Eco-tourism
5. Hydro
6. Oil and gas
Okay, it was a trick quiz, because "A" was the answer to all 6.
You live in a glass house if you want to throw pebbles at Saskatchewan based on resource revenue.
Frank
4 years ago
And...
From the Vancouver Sun, whom you recommended as a source :
The link to the article (its on electoral boundaries, I know, its a yawn but what can you do)
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=05bd6600-9cba-4b00-ac40-babca947100a
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
By the way Jane, you never confessed to being an extreme libertarian. So I ask, are you against government, police, army and national borders in order that we may truly be free?
Jane Doe
4 years ago
You said - Hate?
This plot is getting a bit weird Frank.
Someone working for you that you "hate" ?
I'll forget the detail of your note and try to address the what I think is the theme.
You are saying - does personality matter? Yes - it does.
But a managers personal likes and dislikes put ahead of hiring skilled workers is one fast way for that manager to have to dust off his own resume and hone his interview skills.
Think about it. You're a company boss in a competitive field and your managers are hiring people with dubious skills. Whats going to happen - three guesses.
Makes sense to me. Though you are right about one thing - there is a lot of fantasy land thinking about. Watch out it doesn't infect you.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
i luv quizes
But I do wish you hadn't given me the right answers - I got to be honest I would have given the Libs a point or two.
Not that I am super excited about their performance.
But I was just so thankful when the NDP fell that I can forgive a bit here and there.
What about the old NDPer Glen Clark working for for the super capitalist. Funny how things change.
dorothy
4 years ago
Words of wisdom: let it be.
"Dorothy - I'm sure you have moments of pure clarity - this isn't one of them.
I truthfully have no idea what you are tying to say.
I will happily respond if there is any substance."
No, Jane - it's OK. Don't sweat it.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
libertarian - me ?
Unfortunately we need all of them - however we don't want them to be any more intrusive in our lives than needs be.
If only we lived in a world where personal greed didn't exist and everyone helped one and other and worked toward a common good.
oops - we're back to fantasy land
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
You've never hated anyone you've worked with? Really? I have. I've worked with people where I would consider the word "idiot" to be going soft on them.
I assume then that you work in a place where everyone is happy and gives each other big group hugs every afternoon just before tea-time? That's pretty great. It also means you don't live in the same world populated by me.
Glad to hear you agree.
If you are capable of looking past personality conflicts and promoting Dorothy over your best friend at work even though Dorothy may only be a smidgeon better at her job, then kudos. You're rare. But in my experience that managerial-school mantra somehow gets lost when the rubber hits the road. Hard to remember your classroom theory I guess when dealing with real people. Which would explain why so many people claim to be unhappy with their job and their manager.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
We all live and work in a capitalist system. I'm sure you've heard the saying "When in Rome?" When you've got kids to feed you work. If all the "cooperative-toy-building-for-
3rd-world-children in an environmentally friendly- mutually supportive environment with fabulous perks" jobs are taken I think its okay to work for Jimmy too.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
If only we lived in a world where personal greed didn't exist and everyone helped one and other and worked toward a common good.
oops - we're back to fantasy land
Not at all, it sounds like you're describing your workplace.
Okay, so you're not an extreme libertarian, just a libertarian. And a right-wing one, not the left-wing type (anarchist).
My own thoughts are that state structures, including the coercive ones, tend to be run by and for the right-wing side of the ledger. Therefore the Right should accept that we on the Left would appreciate some structures of our own and one of those would be unions. Because I'd happily dump government, the police and the army before I'd want to get rid of unions.
Frank
4 years ago
Lynn
By the way, thank you for your comment from earlier today Lynn. I was up your way last week with the family and the family dog. Beautiful as always but I can't convince the rest of the tribe to move. I'll have to settle for being a tourist.
realisticman
4 years ago
Compulsory Membership?
Is that true? For some jobs, where there's a union, membership is compulsory? What's to be afraid of, people not wanting to join? Are votes open too?
Frank
4 years ago
r'man
You know as well as I do its like citizenship. If you want to live, work, retire and enjoy all the perks of being a Canadian you have to actually become a Canadian. You can't declare yourself to be a citizen of only the universe and refuse to pay taxes while enjoying the perks won by other people.
A union workplace is the same way, if you want to enjoy the perks of a workplace based on the rule of law you have to sign on.
G West
4 years ago
still waiting
for that apology, and, having read a bit more of your stuff (I've been busy but I'd say Frank and Lynn have handled things just fine) I'm still puzzled by that statement up above about your just wanting a good discussion.
I may have to re-post your little list just so everyone else knows exactly where you're coming from and that business about just wanting a good talk is pretty much window-dressing.
You're a union-basher, plain and simple. What I can't understand and I hear it all the time from people like you [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.], is why the heck they always hire slugs and then have to get rid of them. I'd have thought you'd hire better folks in the first place and you wouldn't find yourself with all that dead wood.
Could it possibly be a lot of the difficulty comes from management and NOT THE WORKERS?
janet666
4 years ago
Frankly Frank Frankenfurter
here in the operating theatre of dr evil you can pork barrel all you want and it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. you guys know everything i say is true, thus you both respond with a "you're a right winger" personal attack thinking this will put me on the defensive and you will have your perverted and disgusting way with me.
there is no left or right wing, only greed, self preservation and "i'm all right, jack". stop hiding behind your union dogma and take personal responsibility for the past, present and the future.
Stump
4 years ago
more misinformation
CUPE on the other hand would like all that based on seniority.
Now is that misinformed? It is based on lots of years of experience. I could talk to a lot of other people in industry for which these statements would ring true.
However this board, like the unions, seem to have a problem with rewarding ability.
So before you accuse me of misinformation check your facts. It may not be what you want to believe, but I can't help you there.
Please provide a source or citation for your assertion that CUPE expects promotions to be based solely on seniority, rather than the normal and rational method in collective agreements where the most senior QUALIFIED candidate gets the first opportunity to prove their ability to perform the duties of the position. I'll bet you can't. Because you're dealing in misinformation and fallacies. Why? Because otherwise your arguments and objections fall apart. What is the problem with promoting the most senior QUALIFIED candidate?
This forum does reward ability. Have you not noticed the "best comments" tab.
Janet666:
You're funny. Can I have my perverted and disgusting way with you? I'll bring the chocolate, you bring the barnyard animals.
Stump
4 years ago
R-man, think it through
In my union, some votes are a show of hands, others are a secret ballot.
As to compulsory membership, think about what happens in the job interview process when management asks you whether or not you plan to join the union... and where your resume ends up if you say Yes.
Geez. This isn't rocket science people.
Stump
4 years ago
mix metaphor until well done
LOL. That's awesome Janet.
dorothy
4 years ago
that' s quite a mouthful
"...take personal responsibility for the past, present and the future."
What religion is that you're peddling here? extreme Godhood?
Past - you're only responsible for not wasting and negating the good stuff your elder kin handed down to you. Otherwise forget it - you weren't there.
Present - OK, this is now, you're here, what you do counts, and you're responsible for it. Sometimes we get confused about to whom we're responsible. It is such a hard process to simply take ownership of the ground under your feet. Think about it this way: who is the person you can never run away from, no matter how you would try. Tip: it's not your mother.
Future - more dicey. Some of your actions may well be projected there, but you must remember they go into the mix with 6 billion other people's actions, so your responsibility is limited. Shame, that, but it has to do with the crazy math of some church fathers and their inability to see the light and smell the coffee, quite aside from their grubby interest in expanding the tax base unendningly to their own supposed glory and mundane benefit. World's first successful multinational. No one could look at the R.C. Church and not foresee where the rest would be headed. Monsters all of them, eating up the world and getting fat.
Stump
4 years ago
Those other unions
Funnily enough, even governments like to present a united front (Union of BC Municipalities). Let's not forget that doctors, lawyers, and lots of other professions band together to work collectively to define the rules and regulations that affect them and their workplace. The police of course, are unionized, as are firemen, ambulance personnel, etc. Strange how little criticism they get from the anti-union crowd.
As a matter of fact, unions (guilds) actually predate capitalism, rising with the advent of mercantilism.
United we bargain. Divided we beg.
If one can't figure out that very simple truth, one has no business offering up [OFFENSIVE COMMENTS REMOVED HERE...] opinions as anything other than prejudice and [...AND HERE. -TYEE EDITOR].
realisticman
4 years ago
So, why did the Labour Party allow this?
* try and persuade you to join a union (eg by giving you some money)
* force you to make payments to a union
You have the right not to be dismissed or, if you're an employee, selected for redundancy for:
* not being a union member
* refusing to join a union
* refusing to pay union membership fees or to give the money to charity instead
A 'closed shop', where everyone has to belong to a particular trade union, is not allowed by law. It's unlawful for membership of a trade union to be a condition of employment and employment agencies can't refuse to put you forward for a job because you aren't a union member.
It seems as though Britain and Australia have outlawed any discrimination.
Why not here?
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TradeUnions/DG_10027560
http://www.abcc.gov.au/abcc/WhatYouShouldKnow/Unions/
Westie, since your comment directed at me was expunged by Tyee I would have thought that you would be the one to be contrite; but no, you're still patting your flock on the head and slipping them the occasional sugar cube. By the way, did you lock-in your mortgage? I know you expected an interest rate rise this week but it didn't happen. I guess real estate prices will continue to climb. Didn't you say they were going to, "tick, tick," go down?
Stump
4 years ago
Aussie Workplace Legislation
The legislation you're talking about was introduced by John Howard of Australia's Liberal party. Thanks for playing.
But no doubt the rules you're quoting have tackled that pernicious trend for employers to demand their workers join a union? Yep, that's a real problem alright.
G West
4 years ago
Well....
To call "NEW LABOUR" an actual labour party is a bit of a stretch and, as union participation in Australia goes down, mirabile dictu, what's happened to competitiveness and productivity in that country.
I'll tell you, it is sliding down the scale of western competitiveness with its larger twin the USA.
The comment you're referring to was in response to what you said my friend and you know it so let's forget that and return to actual facts and data.
I notice David Hahn is on the blower crowing about how marvelously that shipyard in Germany - Flensburger Schiffbau-Gesellschaft - has managed to build the "C" ferries on time and on budget with their highly trained and highly-subsidized UNION staff.
I see you haven't learned the lesson and like Janet 666 and your other friend jane doe still want to get personal.
Stump
4 years ago
the bit you left out R-man
Realisticman, you forgot to cut and paste the information directly above the piece you cherry-picked. Happy to pick up the slack for you. If we presume the most important information comes first....
Your employer shouldn't treat you unfairly because you belong to a trade union, (for example, by refusing you promotion or training opportunities). And they shouldn't try to persuade you to stop being a union member by offering you, for example, better conditions of employment for giving up membership.
You have the right not to be dismissed or, if you're an employee, selected for redundancy for being a union member or refusing to leave your union.
If you're a trade union member, you have the right, at an appropriate time, to:
take part in legitimate trade union activities, including having time off to do so
use trade union services, for example, getting legal advice on employment issues
'An appropriate time' means both time during your working hours when your employer has agreed union members may do these things and time outside your working hours.
If you choose to use either of these rights, your employer shouldn't treat you unfairly, dismiss you or make you redundant for it.
bob the cat
4 years ago
heartening
It is heartening knowing there are people such as Frank and GWest who are not I suspect union members but who understand the importance of unions. Probably better than a lot of union members themselves.
And they speak up.
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
bob the cat
4 years ago
Pastor Niemoller
"First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
still waiting
Westie - I used to enjoy your posts because they were rich and you have a good command of the language.
However you seem more bitter these days. Anyhow I'll try my best to respond to your questions.
Don't wait too long - as I said in a previous posting - I have always been civil in my notes. Light - yes, have may have laughed at you now and again - a little ridicule her and there. Tell me specifically what I should apologize for and I will give it due consideration. Anyway enough of that.
Feel free to re-post my list if you wish (so long as you don't take any credit for it) but I was going to do it myself and include a guide to "preferred lexicon" for the beginning poster who wishes to quickly gain acceptance on this site.
A few of your bitter comments:
"you're a union-basher" - healthy criticism only - I have said many times unions have a role.
"from people like you" - so you reckon you have my profile down pat - not close.
"who think they are smart" - no disagreement here.
As for the hiring of "slugs" - you are not even on the radar - firing is a very rare event where I come from.
Though I have seen quite a few slugs on client sites sitting safe in their jobs thanks to .... well you know the rest of this story.
I prefer the intellectual G West, the bitter one is sad to see.
Anyway if I don't get that list of mine up soon feel free to prod me.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
there is no left or right wing, only greed, self preservation and "i'm all right, jack". stop hiding behind your union dogma and take personal responsibility for the past, present and the future.
You couldn't respond to the several posts I addressed to you in a civil manner?
You instead respond with a rambling, shotgun-like bag of accusations and calling me a pervert?
See a shrink Jane or come back in 20 years when you've grown up.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
A statement that does not bode well for your intellectual capacity since it tends to be the last refuge of a person who can't communicate. If what you say is true you'd have no trouble refuting my, or anyone else's, points and putting forward your own.
[PERSONAL INSULTS REMOVED. YOU MADE YOUR POINT. -TYEE EDITOR.]
G West
4 years ago
You call ME bitter and personal?
Guess you don't remember posting this:
Now, as stand up comedy I suppose that might draw a laugh at a Campbell party (nothing liberal about it) bun toss but as the offering of someone who says 'she's' interested in serious discussion...
Well I think the other readers here will get the point.
You obviously don't. Still waiting for the apology. Of course I'm not holding my breath.
Generally speaking, people who think they can reduce complex ideas and difficult concepts to sound bites usually [PERSONAL INSULT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]
Consequently, what you 'believe' just boils down to name-calling nonsense. In my view.
Too bad the html tags didn't allow me to preserve your bolded text as a quote - but it is an exact cut and paste otherwise.
Still waiting for that fresh air too.
G West
4 years ago
Whoops!
There they are...didn't show up in preview version - just like your original - except for the little green label.
realisticman
4 years ago
As I Suspected
I ask a question regarding compulsory union membership and father West says, "What I can't understand and I hear it all the time from people like you who think they're smart, is why the heck they always hire slugs and then have to get rid of them." I've never got rid of, or fired, anyone. Then he comes up with, "I see you haven't learned the lesson and like Janet 666 and your other friend jane doe still want to get personal.". He likes to goad doesn't he.
The EU has also, along with Britain and Australia, ruled that joining or not joining is a basic right. What say you?
Again I ask, why here in Canada is this basic right still not allowed?
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
You never responded to my post as to why refusing to belong to a union in a workplace governed by a union contract is any different than refusing to take out citizenship while spending one's life in a living space governed by the laws of a particular country?
Are you saying that countries are "afraid" of letting people living within their borders have the right not to be governed by the laws, taxes and responsibilities that others in the living space accept?
You really can't see why the countries of the world require citizenship?
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:Again I ask, why here
Think it through and tell us what happens eventually in a right to work scenario.
Then you'll have your answer.
bob the cat
4 years ago
evil alert
I passed dr evil on the way in..he was on the way out..he was raving and ranting..
I managed to make out
"I will post here no more forever!"
and something about a janet 666...I gave her my heart but she wanted my soul..or something like that...and then..this really confused me
a whole lot...he said he now understood that Vincent wanted to give her his heart..but of course he couldn`t so he gave her his ear.
Last I heard and saw of him he was singing
" Say hello to Dorothy"
Say hello to lynn
send them all my salary
from the waters of oblivion
Jane Doe
4 years ago
bob the cat
I agree with you - both Frank and G West are clearly bright minds with good hearts.
These are tough times with major dislocations in society and the economy. The whole China thing as "the worlds workshop" is incredibly disruptive. In Canada manufacturing is having a tough time.
Housing is out of sight. International money flow is speeding up - capital moves in and out of markets so fast. It's not good, but like the atom bomb - its too late, the genie is out of the bottle. We cannot undo it - we have to live with that and somehow adapt to it.
And I don't think that promoting this old fashioned view of "union workers" versus "bosses" is a health way. There has to be a more conciliatory approach.
Yes there has to be recognition of seniority, but there also has to be differentiation based on ability.
There has to be a better sharing in good times but also hard times.
A lot of people on this board take these old fashioned silo views on topics and, like trying to turn back the tide, - it isn't going to work.
So a hard position in one direction almost begs for a hard opposing response.
I'm afraid when I see posters suggesting marching in the streets with orange arm bands I have to put on my PR hat and wonder about the optics. I think if unions want to loose more ground with the general public, business, investors - go ahead.
The union needs more people like Paul Faoro - I don't agree with many of his demands, but he is a smooth front-man. If you could line him up with some creative thinkers - not the locked into yesterdays union buzzword thinkers - you might have a team.
Now that is not giving in to the capitalist pigs (- is that the right phrase - I'm not good at this union jargon thing) it's just moving with the times.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
To put it another way, what if I decided I wanted to attend high-level meetings at the Masonic Lodge but I didn't want to become a member?
Should all organizations be banned from preventing non-members from enjoying what members pay for?
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
C'mon R'man, I know you're here. You're a bright guy and its a simple question.
Should organizations and countries have the right to exist if their existence depends on dividing the world into members and non-members?
G West
4 years ago
R/Man
That comment was not directed at you - it was meant for jane doe...if you'd been paying attention, you'd have noticed that she's the one who is continually complaining about how difficult it is to fire union employees.
Check it out.
G West
4 years ago
After all
Your quibbles, realisticman, are much more generalized - you think unions are behind such disgraces as what's happening to health care in this province.
Remember?
G West
4 years ago
This kinda thing
Won't buy you bupkiss janey.
Come up with some real arguments that aren't little more than [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.] and we'll talk.
Until then, I'll deal with serious questions only - my kids are back at school - there's work to be done.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Can I tell Imperial Oil I want to be paid a salary equal to one of their vice-presidents but I don't want to actually be forced to join Imperial Oil because John Howard thinks my rights and freedoms would be trampled if I was actually forced to join an organization if I wanted to benefit from it?
I have to admit, I like John Howard more and more today.
realisticman
4 years ago
Frank
I'm also working here and I have seen your posts which I will give serious consideration to. I had to make a few calls and have things to do. I'm not evading.
bob the cat
4 years ago
jane
"Capitalist pigs?"
In my experience I`ve never heard "Capitalist pigs" used in a union shop anywhere. Most unions are not that political anymore. The union I spent most of my time with came out of radical anti capitalist roots...from the Wobblies...they had to be ..they had to fight to escape the clutches of a very corrupt American union..they had to fight the government of the day...the BC Federation of Labour and the CLC (Canadian Labour Congress)..all this to become autonomous.. Canadian controlled with the money staying in Canada. They are not members in the BC Fed or the CLC. The Wobblies of the day who assisted in the unions formation left once they`d achieved the victory as they can`t handle hierarchical structure..they elect their executive before each meeting..for that meeting only...everyone paid the same..from the gal/ guy who sweeps the floor to the highest skilled tradesman. Much like the P.O.U.M in the Spanish Civil War..who had no officers...but would elect positions when and as needed. It worked...they may have won if not betrayed by the Stalinists who were very worried they might actually win.
Most of the members are true dyed in the wool supporters of the Capitalist system. I personally knew a few who were millionaires ,flipping real estate and other business` on the side and I would wager a majority of members voted Gordon Campbell in the election.
Within the union you have your left, right and in the middle. Mostly to the right now unfortunately in my opinion.
Of course capitalism is successful..economic energy unmatched..nobody is denying that...we all grew up and have done well in this system but can the planet now sustain unbridled growth? And Capitalism mustgrow..expand. Will we not need a more co-operative way...to deal with and succeed in preserving the planet..a little more unselfish approach now?
A little more of the common good ? Of real community? Are we done yet with bigger better individual more..has capitalism now taken over Government? Corporate Capitalism..we`re not talking small free enterprise ..who could be against that.. Do the corporations now govern? Does business control Government which in turn controls the people?
Preston Manning and Peter Lougheed recently flew a tour over the oilsands...according to the report I heard they were aghast at the destruction...and are muttering about reining it in a little.
The thing is we can`1t!! The thing has run amok...It now controls US..
I got work to do ..
BC Dude
4 years ago
George Carlin on YouTube
George Carlin on YouTube very xxx rough language but very truthful in UsA and Canada!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?aid=794&_id=128&zine=show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg
We've been living in a corporate box for the last 50 years and it's time we the owners of this planet took a one week holiday for Earth Day! What if they gave a war and nobody showed up?
The entire war machine relies on US as labour to make their WoMD and send our sons and daughters out to be slautered for oil in foreign lands as cannon fodder.
janet666
4 years ago
[GOADING COMMENT REMOVED]
[PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED. PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE IN PERSONAL TAUNTS OR INSULTS. -TYEE EDITOR.]
janet666
4 years ago
Seriously Frank
i see you typically sink into [PERSONAL INSULT...] personal insults and attacks [...ABOUT PERSONAL INSULTS REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.], as are so many of the "left" and "right" commentaries in these political discussions. you quoters are the worst, you cannot carry on a discourse without your little "oneupmanship", the quote, followed by the personal judgemental jibe as to their intelligence, their political leanings...
corruption in government? well, that's pretty blatant isn't it? but corruption in the union agenda?? the union is too sacred and holy for that.
Frank
4 years ago
janet
[PERSONAL INSULT REMOVED. MOVE ON, PLEASE. -TYEE EDITOR.]
G West
4 years ago
and there's this - hot off the press
Some of you happy band of capitalists might find it interesting reading... that party's over:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
By the way Jane, my apologies for directing a post at you that was obviously in reply to Janet.
janet666
4 years ago
beneath the tree Stump
the rubiyat doesn't mention anything about barnyard animals....
janet666
4 years ago
Ferocious Frank
you mean names like "wiener"
Frank
4 years ago
janet
And the brilliant analysis of unions continues...
realisticman
4 years ago
the best interest of students
In a report released Thursday, the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies argues that governments should remove principals from bargaining units, end the right to strike, and bring in or enhance standardized testing.
The public policy research group, known for its close ties to corporate Canada, says that teachers' unions in Canada are opposed to these changes even though they're in the best interest of students.
The study argues merit pay should be introduced for teachers and that seniority provisions should be dropped or altered when there are layoffs.
lynn
4 years ago
Everyone's a nice guy
I see potential solutions to local and global problems coming from many different sectors and I won't apologise for that. Maybe you're just used to pigeon-holing people as being on one 'side' or another... a lot of people who consider themselves thoughtful and compassionate, as I think you are, fit somewhere in the middle.
vicki, if you are really interested in dialogue here I don't think your "answer" either explains or defines your position.
On a previous thread, you both recommended and championed an article written by a fellow from The Wharton School of Business who made very clear that his vision of saving the poor of the world was mainly through vast privatization fueled by mainly vast corporate ventures.
You stated in recommending this article that you thought "he makes a very good case."
The case he is making is a both an extremely pro-corporate and pro- globalization case.
Yet you state here that you are neither pro-corporate or pro-globalization.
That to me is exactly the new definition of what moderate now means....what the middle ground has now become and what it now represents - in that you do not really know where you stand but a stance is chosen that frees you from the consequences of your so-called beliefs - consequences that hold the potential to devastate the lives of people both here and throughout the world. (G West wrote you a very good reply in that regard on that thread- it is highly worth the read).
This may sound harsh but it is much less harsh than the damage now being done to people's lives in the name of what is now called neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism which amounts to the same thing - which is a philosophy based totally on self-interest. A non-recognition of the needs or the rights of the other.
And there is a vanity, a state of denial in that - in pretending that you really are "a nicely moderate" person or "nicely moderate" political party when the policies you support/enact clearly bring such not-so-nice misery and suffering to so many.
That's why we now have Ministries of Public Harm (halos all shiny and gleaming)..... now doing more public harm than public good because of their very existence.
That's why real dialogue as Stump explained above has real value - and that's why the hired shills who have been hired to distract, mis-inform and generally destroy real debate are really the most pathetic of human beings - because, in the end this is not at heart a political discussion, but a human one that involves the lives of so many.
Stump
4 years ago
What's the end game
Realisticman:
What's the logical conclusion to a labour market with right to work (for less) legislation? This is an easy question. If you can figure out the answer, you'll also understand why unions which have achieved so much for their members (and non-union workers too) are fighting against it.
It's not a basic right to choose where you want to work and demand the right to undermine the gains made by others. If you don't want to work in a union environment, there's lots of non-union employers. Right to work (for less) rules are simply an insidious form of union-busting.
Frank
4 years ago
Quote:The study argues merit
And so you're in favour of the gov't hiring a few people per school to watch teachers teach and decide how much each of them should get paid.
And do you agree then with this report that students will somehow benefit from teachers no longer belonging to a workplace organization?
How about the previous discussion as to should groups and countries have the right to divide the world into members and non-members?
Does the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies have members or are there barriers in place to joining and writing reports?
G West
4 years ago
So that's what Brian Lee Crowley is up to these days
The Atlantic Institute for Market Studies is the East Coast equivalent of Mikey Walker's Fraser Institute Frank.
Very big in neo-con circles and major advisors to the pee wee project.
What do they know about education?
Excellent question.
Especially since principals and vice principals are already part of 'management' in the BC system I guess the R'man and Brian Lee Crowley will be pleased....though most teachers I know - for professional and pedagoical reasons - were much happier when that was NOT the case.
G West
4 years ago
And a tiny bit more about Dr Crowley
The AIMS website lists minimum wage laws and union density not as signs of a healthy society but as "public policy distress factors." Reducing both would increase what Atlantica proponents call "labour market flexibility," which often just means more work for less money and less rights. Speaking with CTV last year, Brian Lee Crowley called public sector labour unions "destructive," and in a Globe and Mail column from 2000 on the evils of equalization, he said what Atlantic Canada needs more than anything are "significant tax cuts, labour flexibility, social welfare and [EI] reform and improved profitability for business."
Pretty clear where he stands and, from all intents and purposes, why the R'man might quote from one of his organs, eh?
Frank
4 years ago
GWest
What I'm curious about is whether writing reports for that organization is an actual job or is it instead an association of like-minded individuals publishing under a common umbrella name?
bob the cat
4 years ago
Frank could be right janet
yikes..
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED, ALTHOUGH APOLOGY OFFERED LATER IN THIS THREAD ACKNOWLEDGED. THANK YOU. -EDITOR.]
G West
4 years ago
Dunno Frank
I do know Crowley does a lot of the writing and publishing work himself...but he has had time to permit pee wee to appoint him to a couple of financial advisory boards and or committees...He's also a big supporter of the idea that BC should start developing its offshore oil potential so I reckon he also thinks lots more new roads and SUVs are a good idea too.
That is, when he's not trashing the Romanow Report.
Stump
4 years ago
Quote:corruption in
Corruption within an organization and a corrupt agenda are two different things. I challenge you to find anyone who condones either.
Unions are the epitome of democratic principles. One person, one vote, and a common cause.
Why the professed affection for democracy in theory, but hatred for democracy in practice?
G West
4 years ago
AND
Like the Fraser Institute, I imagine they've got themselves designated as a charitable foundation.
Never have been able to square that circle.
RickW
4 years ago
Cycling Commuter
Because we live in a representative democracy...........and have agreed not to interfere with politics, except once every four years or so........
RickW
4 years ago
Labour might not be the most sterling.....
....advocate of individual freedoms, but, to misquote Churchill: It has been said that unionism is the worst form of representation, except for all the others that have been tried.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Corporations http://en.wikipe
Corporations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
janet666
4 years ago
"goading comments"
editor: i sure don't mind you removing my "goading comment" as long as you remove all the rest of the "goading" comments the rest of your correspondents constantly ladle generously into their verbage. be fair, keep all the doagies under the whip, no exceptions for your little favourites, yah?
realisticman
4 years ago
Choice
Stump asks
Perhaps we'll see if Europe, Australia and the UK collapse, since they all have it.
It has to do with choice as to whether one wishes to pay for union activities that include donations to political parties and other expenditures and whether one wishes to be available for any benefits that may accrue.
Frank
I never said I'm in favour of anything Frank. I just saw the story today and thought it germaine to the discussion.
As to your question regarding citizenship and its correlation, I feel you have a point, bearing in mind that citizenship is not usually immediate and one can live in much of the world for extended periods without requesting citizenship or being obliged to petition for it. Perhaps union membership should be similarly considered. I think it comes down to choice when some do not want to provide funds, or receive benefits from an organization they should be permitted to opt out.
As we see, Europe, including Britain, Australia and much of the US have allowed this. Was the EU ruling one big union-busting right-wing conspiracy? Hardly.
realisticman
4 years ago
Corr.
You quote above Frank, should be;
Frank
4 years ago
Quote:Perhaps we'll see if
Since you misunderstand where he's going, I'll explain, he thinks it'll lead to the further destruction of unions.
You think it strengthens unions? Not a chance. To me it looks like a way to undermine them. Since people outside the union but occupying the same workspace will no doubt receive the same benefits whether they are in the union or not the union will quickly wither and die. Let's see if that happens shall we?
But they are receiving benefits. They continue to work in a space ruled by a contract they're not party to. They derive benefit from that. Just as I would derive benefit from declaring myself a citizen of Alpha Centauri and stay in the living space of Canada but not pay taxes.
Frank
4 years ago
And
And to add, I still say that although you may think this legislation is progress I doubt too many companies will be lining up to demand the same legislation being forced on them. Because Imperial Oil won't want to be paying benefits to people who don't actually want to be part of Imperial Oil.
RickW
4 years ago
what Atlantic Canada needs
And here I thought all along that what Atlantic Canada needs are jobs and occuptions that attract people, and from which they can make a living.........
Silly me!
Stump
4 years ago
citizenship vs union membership
My parents and I came to Canada as landed immigrants. We didn't have the option to not pay taxes or bow out of other mandatory payments. And that's without the right to vote.
Right to screw yourself legislation is nothing more than a back door way of attacking the the best tool unionized workers have in negotiating a fair wage and workplace, namely collective bargaining. It's a classic divide and conquer tactic. Casting it in the light of increased freedom or choice is at best naive.
Stump
4 years ago
one further point
And, I'd ask you again R-man, to extrapolate what happens when a company has most of its workers isolated and bargaining on their own behalf for wages and benefits?
Do you imagine fair wage increases or a gradual erosion of gains as each worker tries to negotiate on their own?
Bear in mind my experience when you answer. I've had the good fortune to participate in the negotiation of two collective agreements. It opened my eyes big time. Both times we were across the table from managerial staff that had been caught lying to their staff and denying them rights and benefits that were in the contract, and further, were committed to weakening workers' rights, clawing back benefits, and reducing wages.
You're telling me that trend would change if it was just me -- trying to get a deal on my own with no bargaining chips (job action) whatsoever?
G West
4 years ago
Nicely put stump
Like private property amendments, the notion of opting out of union contracts (or as it's put in the language of the employer - freedom of choice) is simply one more attempt to increase the hegemony of the side with most of the power in the relationship already.
That's the problem with capitalism - there's constant talk of balance but the boss's finger is always on the scale. It the current system were working the mal-distribution of assets wouldn't be as offside as it has gotten.
Any time one man (let alone many of them) has the net worth of several countries - there is a serious problem.
Moreover, the only way to fight these people is to continually remind them and the citizens who must eventually bring them to heel of exactly how often they've played the ball offside to get here.
BC Dude
4 years ago
This is where labour,
This is where labour, freedom as we will/are owned and used as collateral by big names like Rockerfellows, Haliberton, Bilderbergers, Carlyal group, Exxon, Royal Dutch Shell, Kinder Morgan, DuPont, Wal-Mart, and on and on total greed.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7427022351584640827
http://www.harperindex.ca/index.cfm
http://www.strategicthoughts.com/
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php
lynn
4 years ago
The real extremists
Stump wrote:
G West wrote:
And that is why workers who are simply exercising their right to organize together - in order to protect and ensure their rights in the workplace are often painted here as radicals.
And that is why under the name of "so-called moderation" - "that so-called middle ground" - we have "pretend" moderate governments in power provincially and federally now that are neither moderate nor liberal.... and neither moderate nor conservative in their actual as opposed to pretend policies and in their actual as opposed to pretend legislation.
What we have are extremists in power now - corporate radicals.... under the slyest of guises - "the so-called" and "ever-so-nice middle ground."
janet666
4 years ago
editor prejudiced?
editor: you seem to have a bias, your failure to remove goading comments from your "union supporters" is very tiresome. anyone criticizing the state of the union is labled as "right wing", "anti-union" and in support of big business and the liberal/conservative government and as such is subject to a myriad of abusive comments from your loyal subjects.
i do not support the liberal/conservative government, big business, but i also do not support the ndp or the greens, for a great number of reasons, which really is nobody's business but my own, unless i choose to explain, however, labeling seems to be the only way most tyee commentators can function and those once labeled are open to personally offensive remarks. this is a recurring theme throughout your site. most of the time i just ignore them, responding to the most outrageous in hopefully an amusing or lighthearted manner. such as my response to dorothy, who said "What religion is that you're peddling here? extreme Godhood?" my response was, "click your heels together 3 times, dorothy: and say, there's no place like godhead, there's no place like godhead x3" which was removed as a goading comment, however you failed to remove her comment, which i reported to you.
you also failed to remove franks "A statement that does not bode well for your intellectual capacity since it tends to be the last refuge of a person who can't communicate." and bob the cat's "Get help girl" etc. also, i'm not the only woman on this board who gets personally attacked repeatedly.
tell me there is no favouritism on this board? can you explain this biased attitude?
BC Dude
4 years ago
janet666 grow-up little
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -EDITOR.]
realisticman
4 years ago
Don't hold your breath Janet
As anyone can see this site is a considered a counter to the so-called, main-stream-media. Which is considered to be, even and including the Globe & Mail, a bastion of right-wing capitalist ranting that panders to some neo-con conspiracy to rule the world via corporate greed. Not much is discussed, it's usually completely predictable which side most are on, on almost all issues. Therefore, it's a glimpse into the sentiments of those that have a generally negative view of pretty well everything. On one side we're all poor, mistreated, ruled by callous leaders and heading into a disastrous apocalypse and on the other we're fortunate to live in one of the best countries on earth. We're better off and healthier than ever before and we are optimistic that things will improve for everyone, everywhere. Take it at its predictable face value without expectations.
janet666
4 years ago
thanks for the link bcdude
good stuff, i am currently making an audio file for my ipod, but i also reported your "goad" to the editor, hope you don't mind.
RickW
4 years ago
stump
....has been made necessary because governments in general in this province and country, side more with business interests than they do with the people they supposedly represent.
In a true free market system, one of the first things that would disappear would be the corporation, because the notion of limited liability would disappear without governments running interference for the corporate world. And the sheer size of corporations would cease to exist without this kind of protection. Then, individual citizens would be able to negotiate with employers on more of a contractual basis, then is possible today, where strength in numbers (the big stick) is what wins the day.
lynn
4 years ago
From Lynn 999 ;-)
Janet666,
Actually, Janet666, I think your criticism of both unions and the NDP have validity to them. Union leadership has not been strong enough and too many have allowed themselves to be co-opted into a growing corporate culture's need and desire for "business unions."
And if you are who I think you are I would like to apologize as a long time ago in a land not so far away I once self-righteously as hell refused to criticize the NDP for something that (as you then made very clear) they deserved to be criticized for. You were right.
The NDP needs new leadership, and they need to boldly and loudly stand up for the fine principles they were founded on. They won't get my vote until they do so.
But I understand Frank as well. It seems the NDP get little praise for their real accomplishments and blamed for everything, when so much is overlooked when it comes to the other parties. A small deck assumes gigantic proportions and yet a historic raid on our legislature and the tragic sinking of a very large ferry with lives lost are supposedly small stuff - hardly worthy of investigating or reporting on. All is soon hidden.... and forgotten.
But where you're bang on, I think, is that the whole thing seems a pretend game. On almost every level. Where hardly anyone keeps to their principles and betrayal is rampant. Unfortunately, "Life" as we know it....on this planet. For thousands of years now. So I think you have every right to feel like chucking 'em all. Certainly growing numbers of people feel there is no one worthy of a vote. I often feel that way myself.
Maybe we should start over... (then comes the difficult "how and where and with who ?" stuff)....with the caution that we are all such very "human" beings... and thus quite flawed.... every one of us.
Sometimes I think all we can do is the best that we can on a personal level in making honest souls of ourselves, in both word and deed - which I admit ain't always easy.
janet666
4 years ago
lyn999 you know, things could change
where there is a will, there is a way. i repeatedly bring up jack monroe and the failure of Solidarity! because i keep hoping i will get a response from someone telling me that the unions/ndp have taken responsibility for these mistakes and that the circumstances and structure that allowed this betrayel to happen, along with the failure to protect the environment and the poor, have changed. until these people say, we were WRONG and this is what we are going to do about it, nothing will change.
i was used as an unwitting tool to change our independent civic party for its use by the ndp/unions. i constantly live with the regret of my blind faith in the ndp and my naivety. we could have taken city hall 20 years ago, but for the meddling of the ndp in our civic politics.
bob the cat
4 years ago
lynn has once again
made me sit up and give my head a shake..
You`re right..I`ve been a bully
and I sincerely and humbly beg your apologies
janet.
G West
4 years ago
janet666
While I have no problem agreeing with what Lynn's written above, I must also remind you that BC is not and has never been an NDP province like Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and it has never had the kind of union presence that an industrial province like Ontario does.
What the NDP may have done, or may have failed to accomplish in this province - as Frank constantly points out - has to weighed against the conditions on the ground. Since 1900 this province has been ruled by various right wing capitalistic and frequently colonial governments for all but 13 years.
We need to keep that in mind...although the depressing news that the leadership of what bills itself as the NDP in Victoria has decided to support the current government in the destruction (yes destruction is the right word) of some 200 acres of prime Fraser delta farmland as part of the TFN treaty settlement is almost beyond belief.
Having gone from being at the absolute forefront of the concept that agricultural land is a sacred trust for the future, BC has now entered a dark age where the government and the opposition 'support' the destruction of it and are complicit in turning it into asphalt parking lots for containers of useless consumer garbage.
I am all in favour of land settlements with our First Nations brothers and sisters but that does not mean that the very land upon which First Nations people built their rich cultures should be alienated from those higher uses...
This is a very sad time for the province - sadder in its own way than the dark days of the Bill Bennett administration in the early 80s - of which both you and Lynn write today. All in my opinion. We have moved very much farther down the road since then.
As for meddling in civic politics, I don’t think any political group that calls itself the Non-partisan Association and sleeps in the same bed with the Campbell government – even to sharing the same consultants and PR people – has anything on the NDP.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Haven't you got your newsletter on what the trendy right-winger is believing these days? The United Nations is a vast socialist conspiracy. Unions have more power than corporations. The media are all run by Lefties and all the columnists take their marching orders from left-wing editors trained in the USSR. We've even infiltrated the police which is why Vince Foster can be killed and no one is brought to justice, or why OJ can get away with killing his wife. (All of us Lefties are so politically correct we wouldn\t convict a black guy you see)
Global warming is a hoax being foisted on the poor right-winger by big left-wing media. In fact the entire environmental movement is made up of "watermelons", sure, we look green on the outside but its only a ruse, we're as Red as Lenin on the inside.
You have to ignore the mainstream media and its Left-wing bias and tune into the few remaining voices of freedom left on earth, guys like Rush and Fox News. They're the only people telling the truth about what a great man Bush is for example.
In Canada we have left-wing columnists like Vaughn Palmer who don't write as many glowing praises as Campbell deserves because the Aspers are lefties too and are preventing poor Vaughn from doing what he knows is right.
Jeff Simpson and John Ibbitson are closet left-wingers because only in every 2nd column do they blame the NDP for every problem Canada has ever endured when they should really be doing that in every single column. Chantel Hebert is a communist.
Gun control is a way to disarm us so that the Left can seize power because they're afraid of democracy.
The GST was brought in by a left wing gov't, there've been so many I can't remember which one but I think it was Trudeau. Same with income taxes, it was the NDP governments around the turn of the century that started taking away our money and ruining this once great country.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
They don't tell you any of this in school because our education system is run by the teacher's union and they don't want to tell us what the Left has done so they don't mention all those evil left-wing governments in the past. But your average right-winger is so smart he can figure it our himself without that education bullshit.
As for the economy, everything in BC, Canada and the world suddenly started getting better when Gordon Campbell was elected. Campbell has made the entire world prosper from his tax cuts. Before that in the 1990's the world was in darkness, it was a terrible time, everyone in the province moved to Alberta but they don't like to mention this in the newspapers or at school because they're all biased. People who offer stats showing otherwise are just a bunch of hired left-wing goons that don't even read the Calgary Sun so you know they can't be trusted.
By the way I've got some great emails from Ibbitson at the Globe and a Calgary Sun reporter I'll share one day.
In the meantime, keep that tinfoil hat on, UN black helicopters are everywhere and they're looking for your guns.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Oh, and don't forget that the US and Canada are the most generous countries on earth when it comes to foreign aid. We;'ve sent so much we could have fed every person in the 3rd world 50 times over for the last 50 years but the truth is the money never gets there because left-wing unions run the bureaucracy and they siphon off almost all the money. So remember that the next time some hippie tells you we need to help the hungry, we've already helped them, tell the hippie to tell his union buddies to quit taking all our money.
And the reason we have terrorists is because they hate our freedom and our Wal-Marts. People that speak Arabic have this weird thing about department stores, they hate shopping, its a religous thing eh.
other things the Left-wing media doesn't tell you is that smoking doesn't cause cancer, car exhaust fumes go into space where they don't hurt anything and there's tons of wild animals still in the woods and the oceans.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Oh nuts, I forgot to mention the pro-choice people, birth control and the gay agenda. How lefties are trying to make us disappear off the planet by either making sure we don't have babies or by making us all gay in school by making us read books with 3 dads.
Or how that Kennebunkport man proves we were here before the Indians but they won't tell us that.
So many conspiracies, so little time.
However, not to worry, you can catch up on any I've missed by contacting Mikey Campbell at the Sun or Jon Ferry at the Province.
And remember, only corporate media tells the truth about corporations eh!
RickW
4 years ago
Frank
You should stop and catch your breath! It's all wasted on the right anyway, because everything you mentioned is encompassed in a left-wing plot to discredit the public credibility of the left, so that it might ocntinue it's insidious work undisturbed by the public eye........
lynn
4 years ago
G West
Some very astute points and insights, G West. I certainly agree with you regarding the NPA.
If Janet666 is the poster I thought she was, she used to post on Tyee a couple of years ago but under a different moniker. She did not live in Vancouver and from her comments I find it unlikely she would support the NPA.
But yikes, I've been wrong before...verrrry wrong, ;-).... so I may be totally mistaken about her identity.
I guess, in the end that is up to Janet666 to reveal.
Despite that, many of her points still hold validity for me.
vicki
4 years ago
Well, I'm glad to see that
Well, I'm glad to see that Janet at least, has acquired some street cred while I've been away. (BTW, I couldn't agree more with your comments re-Solidarity. I wrote some of the speeches used by the labour movement at the time and I still wince at the memory.)
Even though I'm still relegated to the naughty stool... I will always stay civil.
Sometimes I think all we can do is the best that we can on a personal level in making honest souls of ourselves, in both word and deed - which I admit ain't always easy
Lynn, I'm quoting your words. My conscience is clear.
realisticman
4 years ago
Good old Frank
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -EDITOR.]
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Are you a right-wing guy that doesn't buy into any of those conspiracies?
What about the one that there's enough money spent on health and education but the unions screw up both systems to make the gov't look bad?
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
For a moment let's leave the vast subject of right-wing conspiracy theories and turn our attention instead to one of your other points, predictability.
It occurs to me that I've never seen you argue with one of the other right-wing posters on this forum.
Whereas I've had 3 major arguments with GWest (Vimy Ridge, STV and Afghanistan), 1 with Lynn (Danish cartoons), many with Coyote (the NDP) etc etc.
But I've never seen WorkingMan argue with Capitalism, or Elliot argue with IAMC or Cycling Commuter with Nightbloom or Martin with Snert etc etc.
Perhaps its just me but I see more diversity on the Left than I do on the Right.
realisticman
4 years ago
Diversity and Diversions
It's all over the map Frank. I look at the Globe, the Post, the Sun, the Guardian, the Times, the NY Times, Foreign Affairs, Steyn Hitchens, etc. etc. It's all grist. Today I liked Coyne, sometimes I don't. Chantal is very perceptive and I like her prognosises . I like A.A. Gill and Jeremy Clarkson. Bill Buckley is a good writer. I watch Charlie Rose often.
Don't know much about conspiracies, generally doubt them. I have more trust in an unconscious herd mentality. Though, I did think it revealing that Jim Sinclair said that via the city strike they were going to, 'take back the city'.
One cannot expect a huge amount of diversity on this site. I've spoken to leftie friends about Tyee and even they sometimes roll their eyes.
lynn
4 years ago
I'm alright, Jack
vicki, for someone who "says" they are interested in dialogue you have evaded and avoided the question.... and you still haven't explained in any kind of depth how you are not pro-corporate or pro-globalization while at the same time you have recommended and expressed admiration for an avid pro-corporate and pro-globalization article from a fellow of The Wharton School of Business.
You clear your conscience all too easily....which I think is the extremely good point Frank makes above. The right, (which is now pretending to be moderate) rarely, if ever, criticizes or questions itself. It seems it is incapable of self-criticism or admitting when it has made a mistake.... when its policies are failing and harming others.
It seems incapable of debate within itself.
And that is a weakness, and nothing to be proud of.
And its conscience, no matter what the reality or the tragedy of the situation is is always clear: (eg. for them, "There is no crisis in health care in BC even though emergency rooms doctors are speaking out that the situation is like a war zone, doctors, nurses all highly stressed - patients now roomed in closets. Ferries sinking, trains de-railing regularly, rivers and water rights being sold off, homelessness increasing, BC Hydro has lost all its "real" power, disturbing questions about the 999 year "sale" of BC Rail." )
But hey, ya think they'll ever admit there's trouble in paradise? No way.
Their conscience is alway clear.
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -EDITOR]
bob the cat
4 years ago
for Janet 666
In our midst though,
was error
greater than the leeches:
a cancer
few could see.
At this hour
in history, when it was clear to anyone
that our daily work
enables the world to function, and who
are parasites
there arose
a man called Jack Munro
- a burly man,
elected to represent the roar
and hustle of the sawmills, of the plywood
and fibreboard plants, the horns and machine-noise
of the logging sidehills, a man
come into the quiet offices
of the union, the structures
that whispered to him
power,
the rooms where bargains are made
by shirts and ties,
the conference corridors
where lives are traded
The supervisor delivering layoff notices,
the tribunal refusing to hear an eviction appeal,
the businessmen and women gloating over dinner
at the news of the reduction of
payments to the single unemployed
- all share a face
puffy with greed and fright and satisfaction,
the face of
Jack Munro
Tom Wayman
The Face of Jack Munro
vicki
4 years ago
Sorry Lynn. Won't bite for you.
Yet again, you are using my reasonable comment as a springboard for your soap box Lynn. Until you stop the goading and the labelling, I will not engage you. You believe: without knowing anything about me except that I quoted a source you petrsonally despise, that I am only worth your scorn. So what's the point? That was an ugly last line by the way.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Diversity
R-man, you said :
One cannot expect a huge amount of diversity on this site. I've spoken to leftie friends about Tyee and even they sometimes roll their eyes.
Not sure I can agree with that lack of diversity comment. From my brief experience on this site I find it goes from far left to extreme left, from rabid to raving, and from mildly insulting to out and out unfriendly.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman and Jane
Certainly, being Rightees, you'll find our views repugnant. No problem, that's to be expected.
But you've pricked my curiousity here, if you guys think we commenters on the Tyee are extreme lefties, Lenininsts perhaps, then I'm curious where you've found mild and moderate lefties that make us appear extreme?
So by "lefty" I assume we mean people that vote NDP. Now I'm not goading you or playing with you here, I'm sincerely curious where all the mild and moderate leftees hang out if not here?
And since you guys raised the subject allow me to ask you both if you feel comfortable on right-wing sites like ProudToBeCanadian and Ezra Levant's "shotgun"?
Not sure if you know this, but they ban you if you even talk like a lefty. Seriously, they do. Whereas here on the Tyee among us Leninists, you (and me) may get censored once in a blue moon but generally you enjoy free speech here. Much preferable in my opinion to right-wing sites.
dorothy
4 years ago
Lynn
"It seems incapable of debate within itself.
And that is a weakness, and nothing to be proud of.
And its conscience, no matter what the reality or the tragedy of the situation is is always clear"
This is what's known as closing ranks, circling the wagons, building a fortress. The weakness of building a fortress is, that you may feel safe inside, but you have no clue what goes on outside, and you're trapped. Be wise, show reticence here, you're dealing with scared people, who know they're licked. It's not worth it being jumped and have your nose bitten off [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -EDITOR.].
vicki
4 years ago
I see no wagons
"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
Nietzsche
Jane Doe
4 years ago
No, no, no - not repugnant.
No, no, no - not repugnant. Well meaning but, and this is not intended to be rude - simplistic, naive, academic, rigid, etc. Your question about the range of left is a little like how long is a piece of string?
But, as you've asked it I'll give it shot. How about the mild left being the union worker that votes NDP, shops at Wal-Mart, feels nothing about having another worker blocked out of bidding for work because he is not union.
No to the question of right-wing sites - super-righties make me uncomfortable - no heart.
And finally - free speech on this site - I totally agree with.
G West
4 years ago
simplistic, naive, academic, rigid,
I find that offensive. Perhaps I'll complain to the moderator.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Interesting phrase: you're
Interesting phrase:
you're dealing with scared people, who know they're licked
The headlines in the past few days have been amazingly positive here in Canada:
- tight labour market
- August hourly wage growth highest since 2001
- BC unemployment lowest in 30 years
- Real estate sales in Lower Mainland continuing their upward trend
Sounds pretty good so far - no scared people here.
Perhaps you are talking about the hedge fund managers - now they are scared and licked
G West
4 years ago
And R/Man a quick, very polite, question
You have lefty friends?
That's a surprise. I'll bet they're not real lefties; you know the kind, the Marxist Leninist sort you run into here all the time.
I think your lefty friends are really just liberals who're too shy to add that little “neo” prefix to their name tags.
The point, as I see it, is that you have not once offered a scintilla of evidence that effectively counters the empirical case against what global capitalism is doing to the overwhelming majority of the world's citizens at the same time that it is enriching the already over-rich of the world to an unbelievable extent.
How long, exactly, before the economic miracle that has ruined Chile, is choking China, has starved Africa, has turned Russia back into a 'Tsarist' state while poisoning the atmosphere and empting the oceans of much of their bounty while turning the middle east against itself in internecine fury; how long before this nightmare actually starts to pay off and make things really better for the majority?
Or do you have to kill off or starve 80% of the world's population first?
G West
4 years ago
jane doe
You might want to remember things often seem brightest just before the storm; remember how closely the US and Canada are tied while you read this:
http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/
I'm referring to the story titled The Coming U.S. Hard Landing and don't forget to cross reference with the Friday report of the US Bureau of Labour Statistics.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
how tiresome
I'm sure you will.
I sensed that Frank, in his note, was really trying to get my opinion on the site, and after tossing out his word, repugnant, I felt obliged to make an attempt at other descriptors.
Clearly I was aware that those labels might be hard to swallow, which is why I prefaced it, truthfully, by saying I wasn't trying to be rude.
I could have said insightful, flexible, practical, etc - but I always try for truthfulness in my responses.
Check on some of the other posters if you want to see rude. Why you yourself ... oh lets not go there.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
checked your blog
Yes I know - it's miserable. So we had better enjoy what we have in Canada while it lasts - because it may not last long.
If they fall hard so do we.
Is this the first time we have agreed on something? Feels all warm and fuzzy.
RickW
4 years ago
R/Man
The rich.........
G West
4 years ago
my blog?
What are you talking about? It's not MY blog. However, it puts your sanguinary clip of a few moments before into sharp contrast, doesn’t it? Perhaps your joy at high house prices should be a little more restrained in terms of the proportion of the Vancouver middle class who can no longer afford to own a home here. If the American sickness spreads to Canada, it won't be just the hedge fund managers who will head for cover.
As for reporting you to the editor, I've no interest in doing that and was just trying to make a point relative to redactions which have been made in the past 24 hours or so of things I wrote directed to you which you may or may not have noticed.
The following words were redacted from something I wrote in response to you, jane doe:
1) "partially processed bile" - in reference to what I took to be your overly critical attitude towards unions, and
2) "who think they're smart" - in reference to what I took to be disingenuous remarks from you that were inconsistent with management's general control over hiring in the first place.
I'm sure you remember both instances, right?
Now, my subsequent remark tonight is relative to the fact that right wingers (and I think that includes you) aren't policed on this site in the same manner as progressive people are is based upon your highly critical "list" which was both 'personal' toward me and offensive and also both untrue, exaggerated for effect and took my words totally out of context and which was not edited in its original location - nor when I posted it again, and, equally, with reference to your comments of a more general but equally ad hominem nature from about 40 minutes ago which is also left untouched.
Look back at those words, which are allowed to stand with impunity - and mine - which have been redacted.
I'm not saying that's your fault, but it certainly looks like a double standard to me.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
G West
Yes I do remember both and I didn't complain about it because that is what I see as your "style". However I believe the redactions were reasonable and it has nothing to do with applying a double standard.
"Partially processed bile" - is pointed, directed and rude. If I was a moderator I would have yanked it too.
"who think their smart" - it's personal but more childish than rude.
Your rudeness usually is usually more subtle, both both against me and other posters that offer reasonable arguments. Admittedly arguments that you don't like.
Case in point in the note we are now talking about. "Right wingers" compared to "progressive people". Rude or simply a put-down; your choice.
As for my list it was general, certainly not personal. It was a somewhat rapidly put together summary of opinions that fly here and those that don't.
I had made a comment about a report you had recommended. Had you been the writer , then it would have been personal and rude. But you were not the writer and so how could you take offense.
This is where I say again if there is something that I should apologize to you for - please let me know and I will see if it is warranted.
So please do not take personal offense at general ideas - even if you think they are too simplistic. And in my discussion with Frank I fell over myself saying I was not being rude.
This is all too picayune for someone like you. Can we now drop it
PS "your blog" - as in the blog you referenced (picayune again ?)
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
That's a caricature. I could sit here and make up caricatures too but my point was where are the REAL mild and moderate Leftees that you feel don't exist here? I've been to the other websites I mentioned so I'm aware of what the face of extreme Right looks like. And we have a few here too, such as IAMC. I'd like to know where your comparisons are?
Just conversationally, not trying to trap you or anything, do you ever disagree with other Rightees who comment here? And have you ever said so?
Because the point was raised by your side that we're essentially monolithic and speak in unison yet the evidence suggests its the reverse. I'm sure you disagree but I'd like to hear why.
Is that a good thing? It is if it means a plentiful supply of jobs. And many believe that to be true. Yet I'm sure we all remember a decade ago how everybody was talking demographics, well, look at the employment figures. A slight increase, very slight. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if all other conditions remain the same (they won't) unemployment will continue to fall as the population continues to age. Amazing prediction eh?
About time. Read this article from the Sun. We've been waiting for some wage gains for quite some time.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=7219cc4a-aa33-49e3-9f04-bfd397a1b921
Both also occurring in Saskatchewan.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
Sometimes we all want to be cheerleading our favourite ideology and ignore evidence that doesn't put that ideology in the best possible light. Martin for example has been telling us for years, that house prices never increased during the entire reign of the NDP. Evidence from BC Stats showing that wasn't true he dismissed as biased. Every few months someone will try the old "dark decade of the NDP" bit and then either claim BC Stats is wrong or they'll just not post again for a long time.
I'm just saying that we can all cherry pick evidence to support our side, but sometimes its worth taking a few extra minutes to see if its actually true.
Finally, R'man claims everyone on the Right tends to always be positive and people on the Left tend towards the negative.
Sure, with Campbell in power here and Harper in power in Ottawa I don't see why we'd be that positive. But then I doubt that those who support the Conservative cause in Saskatchewan are that positive about the great things going on there right now either.
And for what its worth, the 90's here in BC were pretty good as far as I was concerned. yet the Rightees seemed to be extremely negative every day judging by local radio at the time.
I'm not sure that means the Right is unduly negative though. Time and place seem to matter.
Frank
4 years ago
Jane
Sometimes we all want to be cheerleading our favourite ideology and ignore evidence that doesn't put that ideology in the best possible light. Martin for example has been telling us for years, that house prices never increased during the entire reign of the NDP. Evidence from BC Stats showing that wasn't true he dismissed as biased. Every few months someone will try the old "dark decade of the NDP" bit and then either claim BC Stats is wrong or they'll just not post again for a long time.
I'm just saying that we can all cherry pick evidence to support our side, but sometimes its worth taking a few extra minutes to see if its actually true.
Finally, R'man claims everyone on the Right tends to always be positive and people on the Left tend towards the negative.
Sure, with Campbell in power here and Harper in power in Ottawa I don't see why we'd be that positive. But then I doubt that those who support the Conservative cause in Saskatchewan are that positive about the great things going on there right now either.
And for what its worth, the 90's here in BC were pretty good as far as I was concerned. yet the Rightees seemed to be extremely negative every day judging by local radio at the time.
I'm not sure that means the Right is unduly negative though. Time and place seem to matter.
Frank
4 years ago
Doube post
I have no idea how that happened because I only hit the button once.
realisticman
4 years ago
Frank
"mild and moderate lefties". How about the Globe and the CBC. Jeff Simpson, Lawrence Martin, John Ibbitson, Rick Salutin, you couldn't any of these righties. Shall I go on?
West
"I think your lefty friends are really just liberals". Could be, life is good and improving; 'though if you knew the company they keep you wouldn't say that.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
R'man, Ibbitson is not a Leftee :-) I know for a fact he doesn't think so either because years ago I sent him an email saying good column by mistake (wrong columnist). So he thought I was of like mind. We got into a cordial exchange and I didn't fess up to being a Leftee or that I had emailed him by mistake. I just went along. He's no Leftee.
I really don't think Mr Simpson or Mr Martin would agree with you either. I've never read a pro-NDP-type column from either. If you have one by all means post it.
Rick Salutin is a Leftee. Do you think he's mild, moderate or extreme?
realisticman
4 years ago
Frank
I've never read a column from Simpson or Martin that was pro-Conservative either, ergo, mild and moderate.
Can't comment on Salutin much because, although I sometimes like his meandering stream of consciousness I rarely have time, or interest in the subject to finish a piece.
realisticman
4 years ago
How about Gwynne Dyer
Along with Hitchens, (who, as you probably know Frank, was quite a leftie of note) both interest me and I agree with much of what both of them write. As I often am interested in, and somewhat agree with, what you write too.
vicki
4 years ago
Frank
I've been reading your posts with interest. They are thoughtful, thanks.
My values and ethics seem to get questioned in this forum because I am not fully committed to one side or another. Fair enough. I have a problem with black and white in a grey world, seems to me that extreme ideologies, including politics and religion, have brought us to this point. Doesn't mean I throw up my hands: I get behind issues in my community where hopefully I can make a personal contribution. (Before anyone gets excited, I'm not talking about donating money or fundraising, I'm talking about practical, in the trenches sort of stuff.)
Anyway, I think it was Lynn who brought up George Monbiot. He's a perfect example for me-- a brilliant thinker targeted by the right for his radical views on the environment and global economic change and the extreme left for not buying into 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Interestingly, he never seems to claim that his views are definitive answers: only that they should open debate.
When it comes to Loose Change and 9/11, he says:
Why do I bother with these morons? Because they are destroying the movements which some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress; that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy; that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.
That's a mind I admire: he does not curry favour from extremists or buy into a single idealogical agenda.
Jane Doe
4 years ago
Frank
Looks like the question about "mild left" has been pretty well covered so I'll move on to some of your other questions.
do you ever disagree with other Rightees who comment here? And have you ever said so?
I believe I have seen some rightist rants here that I disagreed with, but it came packaged with rudeness and seriously bad writing and so I let it slide. But you make a good point; next time I will tackle it.
the point was raised by your side that we're essentially monolithic and speak in unison
I would have to agree with this comment. There appears to be a fairly small group that are ready to pat each other on the back even when the points being put across by one of their own appear naive, unreasonable or illogical.
I have noticed a common strategy here, when dealing with rational arguments comming from the right, usually avoidance of that topic plus often a little put down for even bringing it up.
Rudeness seems to kick in pretty quick, but what is more disconcerting, is the swarm mentality a little like we saw yesterday from the group attacking Janet666.
Read the article you included - I think we might be on the same page on this one; no goverment interference needed here either.
Yes of course we all cherry pick evidence and all scream when our ox is getting gored
Finally "R'man claims everyone on the Right tends to always be positive and people on the Left tend towards the negative."
I would tend to agree. Perhaps there is just too much wrong with the world and the issues are just too large.
If the issue is employers requesting government change because they can't face what market economics are telling them - it could be fought and won by the opposing side. If the foundation of the discontent on this board is with the whole capitalist system well then I can see how nothing would look bright and everything look hopeless
G West
4 years ago
NO
If you expect respect you have to show it.
You haven't. Period.
The only reason I bothered with the explanation is because this was something you started - not me. Instead of taking the trouble to actually "try" to critique a serious report by a professional economist using actual statistics and not opinion you started your involvement here with a chip on your shoulder; calling people names and doing pop psychology about who people were are what they are about. Instead of dealing with a legitimate concern about the 'uses' of charity - you made a joke of it. I could go on, but I think you know that so I'm not going to.
You are a double standard.
Get serious, you'll be treated seriously. You want to play silly buggers - don't expect any notice from me. I'm busy.
As to rudeness - look back at your first posts on the thread where this started (Library Workers) - I can't teach you a thing on that score. As to the label ‘progressive’ people, I used it for a reason: people like you use the label ‘lefty’ like a club and they know it – I just played the same trick with you to add a little verisimilitude.
Frank
4 years ago
realisticman
Hang on a sec, you're changing the parameters. You guys said we Leftees here were extreme. You said you knew Leftees who found the Tyee too extreme etc.
So I'm looking for mild and moderate Leftees, not mild and moderate non-partisans. (Or at least journalists who want to appear non-partisan)
There is nothing in the J Simpson history for example to assume he's a Leftee. Doesn't mean I'm saying that makes him a Calgary Sun type cheerleader for the Right.
What you seem to be implying is that anyone not 100% onside with everything Harper and Campbell do is a Leftee. I'm sure that's not what you mean but I think Leftee writers would approach topics from a left-wing perspective. Salutin fits that description, as does Linda McQuaig and Thomas Walkom at the TO Star. But not Simpson, Ibbitson and Martin.
I haven't kept up on Dyer. I think he's a Leftee on some things. So I think you could call him a "mild" Leftee and not get an argument from me. I saw him at UBC where he was in a debate with my Strategic Studies prof decades ago. (Can't remember the man's name now) Anyway, his columns always seemed to me to be pretty middle of the road. Not a Republican sympathizer that's for sure but I'd have trouble imagining him casting his ballot for Layton too. Not sure about his non-military politics which is probably a good thing.
As for Hitchens. I still read him even though he sort of went to the Dark side. I think he's still a Leftee on some things and although I think he's wrong about Iraq I can see how he got there. After all, I support the Afghan adventure and when Hitchens turns out to have been misguided I may too.
However, I haven't followed him closely enough since his break with ?? (New Republic?) so perhaps he's moved to the Right on a whole range of issues. Anyway, I think your point was that in the old days he was considered a Leftee and I agree. I would have labelled him as a very outspoken, very aggressive "mild". "Mild" because economically etc he was very much mainstream.
Frank
4 years ago
vicki
Interestingly, he never seems to claim that his views are definitive answers: only that they should open debate.
Actually George Monbiot is one of my favourite columnists. And I have read the passage you quote. It was written at around the time we on here were debating the 911 nonsense too.
But then I like several of the guys here (Truman, mopled and murdock) who have that point of view about the environment and 911. Even though its completely opposed to what I believe. Being on different sides of issues doesn't have to breed hate, so I don't care if you're not as left-wing as me on some issues.
I think one can vehemently disagree with a particular point of view without hating the person who holds it. Not in all cases, I would have nothing to do with a pedophile no matter how left-wing they were.
realisticman
4 years ago
Frank
You asked who I consider mild lefties. That list is a few.
G West
4 years ago
Further clarification
If believing in conspiracy theories is any criteria, it's hardly the left that has a lock on that idea. As a matter of fact I'd suggest there are probably far more conspiracy 'nuts' on the right than the left anyway. I mean really, how many million Christian fundamentalists in North America believe in some version of the 'RAPTURE' for God's sake?
My observations here are that realisticman and jane and people of similar belief will never actually back up anything they say with facts and data. TO me is seems to be feelings, impressions, personal observations and ad hominem comments about an interlocutor.
Not once in the discussion I recently had with realisticman did he actually come to grips with the fact that the Earth has been, over the past 7 years, less and less capable of producing enough food to meet our current world needs.
He said he thinks the FAO is doing good work...but not once did he acknowledge that there is a real problem which is at least partly explained by climatic, environmental and global economic factors.
That's what frustrated me. If you people have some facts then lets see them, and stop spending most of your time attacking the messengers.
Ibbitson is clearly conservative; Simpson I'd call a classical Liberal; Hitchens is an alcoholic and has begun to write and talk like it; Salutin is a genuine progressive. As is Naomi Klein...Chantal Hebert, as far as I can tell, has no discernible politics.
dorothy
4 years ago
where are we now?
If anyone was in the business of stopping the discussion of the issues, it looks like they have now succeeded. We are way into political taxonomy and labelling. Can it get more off on a tangent?
lynn
4 years ago
This chocolate bar comes with no peanuts
Sorry, vicki. I'm not letting you off the hook.
You said you were not pro-corporate or pro-globalization.
But then -
You highly recommended and championed an article that through its avid pro-globalization and pro-corporate take will have disastrous and tragic consequences on real people in an all too real world. We're not talking mere words here. We're talking words that come with intentions. Corporate globalization is not just an intellectual exercise. Words on a page become policy and policies come with consequences.
My argument with you is not that you champion this article or that your views differ greatly on this issue from mine.
My argument with you is that you say you are not pro-corporate and not-pro-globalization and yet what you endorse is exactly that.
My argument is that under the guise and vanity of trying to appear like the nice middle ground, you really are not what you are trying so hard to appear as.
I have no problem with someone saying they are pro-corporate or pro-globalization. I don't agree with their position and I'll debate their point of view... but I will in the end at least respect them for their honesty.
But first let's begin with being honest - and not pretend that what we cavalierly endorse has no consequences to the lives of many.
Because it does.
Remember that nice little ol'moderate, non-extremist, United States, is saving Iraq in the name of democracy - they just aren't admitting their kind of democracy comes with bombs that fall on the soft skin of little children.
Yup, they sure are democratic and moderate - home of the free - at least thats's what they keep "saying" they are. Except the policies they endorse tell a whole other story.
If you are chocolate bar that has peanuts in it don't try to say that you are not.
Don't declare that you are a "non-peanut" bar....when your contents reveal that you are clearly made with peanuts. 'Cause some child who is fatally allergic to peanuts is about to buy and take a big bite out of what you are selling.
And that has consequences.
vicki
4 years ago
GWest/Dorothy
Agree absolutely GWest. I was clumsily trying to make the point that no-one has a lock on extremism.
And Dorothy, I agree with you too. When we meet again, let's start over. When insults fly, respect goes out the window and debate along with it. I still think it's possible.
Enjoy the sun.
bob the cat
4 years ago
Good review
A good review by Todd Gitlin in the book reviews..Saturdays Globe of Naomi Kleins latest book:
The Shock Doctrine
In Gitlins review he covers much of what has been discussed here:
"There are various versions of capitalism, but all of them have in common that no internal regulator moderates the beggar-thy-neighbour dynamic. If capital`s "wealth creation" is to result in social good as anything other than accident, it takes a regulating government, strong unions and corporate accountability to more than stockholders alone if the public good is to be served. This is frankly undeniable to all but the most dogmatic of trickle-down theorists."
realisticman
4 years ago
Come to grips
Yes west, why don't come to grips with facts spelled out in the data from the FAO that I presented. I won't come to grips with your postulations that food is in shorter and shorter supply since I defer to the FAO that has 1,600 professionals telling us that the situation is improving. Just because I don't subscribe to your ideas doesn't mean that I am evading the issue with rhetoric, it means that you don't like to believe the study I cite.
Well, I'll be damned. I love your pun about the Rapture and for God's sakes.
lynn
4 years ago
Let the debate begin
okay, vicki so let's return to the debate about unions - where you have very quietly and ever-so-nicely, over and over again applauded Jane Doe's anti- union stance.
yeah, yeah... I know you'd never hold an anti-union stance, anti-anything stance, you just don't believe in collective agreements, that's all, as you stated to Dorothy in defence of Jane Doe.
And then later on down the thread you slip in this:
And yet it wasn't Solidarity that Janet666 was outraged over - it was the betrayal of it by Jack Munro.
....and then of all the quotes of George Monbiot to choose from you choose the favourite of every left gatekeeper that begins with:
"Why do I bother with these morons?"
Enjoy the sun in Victoria, vicki.
realisticman
4 years ago
Salutin is a genuine progressive. As is Naomi Klein..
Naomi Klein
Right On Naomi!
vicki
4 years ago
Oh Lynn, last time.
You continue to goad. But I guess I have to respond.
My wincing was at the betrayal of what I believed in Lynn: what I believed in and worked hard for for many years. You are so off base [MILDLY OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED FOR FEAR IT MIGHT SPARK MORE PERSONAL INSULTS. -EDITOR.].
I have never said I do not believe in collective agreements. But I admit to a problem with the concept of seniority and protection for toxic workers.
And the Monbiot quote was strictly in reponse to Frank's discussion with realisticman.
If you drop the extremely offensive inferences, we can talk about my previous posts. Until then, think what you like.
I understand that you want a place to share your ideas, hopefully without negative input from people who disagree. I get it. Good luck with that.