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Eco-marketing: Bait and switch?
I recently read the Whitefish Handbook of Ecuador, a book that describes the fish Ecuador markets for export. On the page dedicated to South Pacific hake, the writer divulged that hake filets are marketed and sold as flounder, weakfish and tilapia. Hake sold as tilapia?
You know tilapia -- it is one fish everyone agrees is sustainable not least because it's farmed and grows on a vegetarian diet (so it does not require fish in its feed). Tilapia is included in the "best choices" column on seafood wallet cards, which indicate the best and worst species to eat. For years, environmental and health organizations have stressed the benefits of tilapia, and it shows. Indeed, it was recently called "the world's most popular fish." The demand for tilapia is growing -- in the U.S. alone, it has moved up from ninth most consumed fish in 2003 to sixth in 2004. So it might not come as a surprise that there are now tilapia impostors, like this hake.
Pacific hake is a carnivorous fish caught in the open ocean by industrial fishing vessels trailing longlines that accidentally snag turtles, sharks and seabirds. Hake is a far cry from tilapia, but your taste buds can't tell.
And hake isn't the only impostor. Many seafood species, after being renamed or mislabelled, masquerade in the market as eco-friendlier or tastier or more appetizing versions of their former selves. What does this mean for environmental groups working to save the oceans relying on the "ecology of commerce"?
Perceived power of the pocketbook
With the collapse of fish stocks and increase in concern for the oceans, non-government organizations (NGOs) have launched a variety of seafood related social marketing campaigns, most dealing with what to eat, ranging from eco-labelling to the explicit boycott of certain products.
The most prominent seafood label, plastered on tuna cans since the 1990s, is the "dolphin safe" logo for tuna products. Another well-established seafood label that is widely discussed is that of the Marine Stewardship Council (MSC). In addition to eco-labels, many NGOs launched campaigns to influence consumer behaviour, such as "Give Swordfish a Break" or the "Farmed and Dangerous" salmon campaign. NGOs and aquariums have also released seafood wallet cards for consumers to consult at the grocery store or restaurant.
The fundamental goal of these campaigns is to foster a consumer consciousness that steers seafood demand to support healthy fish stocks. But a number of impediments stand between these campaigns and their success.
Let's call a snapper a snapper
For one, as in the case of masquerading hake, eco-marketing is undermined by mislabelling strategies. A widespread campaign in Europe raised awareness of the negative effects of farm-raised shrimp. So Thai shrimp, which account for nearly 30 per cent of global production, are now exported with the label "wild-caught" rather than "farm-raised." In the U.K., illegally caught cod is labelled as "ling."
Renaming species further complicates efforts by seafood advocacy groups. Three-quarters of the fish sold in the U.S. as "red snapper" belong to some other species. Rock crab, once thrown overboard because it was considered of no value, is now marketed and sold as "peekytoe crab." The Patagonian toothfish, an endangered species, is marketed as Chilean sea bass. Slimeheads were renamed a more palatable orange roughy.
Mislabelling species is dishonest and also gives consumers the false sense that supply is meeting demand. Shark flesh is stamped to make "faux scallops." The common skate, which once provided many savoury restaurant meals, is nearly extinct in the North Sea, so thornback rays are sold as skate. In Ecuador, shark will be filleted and sold as flounder or tuna. But lack of traceability in the marketplace is less of a problem than the market itself.
Up against a global appetite
U.S. citizens consumed half a kilogram more seafood per capita in 2004 than they did in 2002. In fact, almost everyone is eating more seafood. Since the early 1960s, worldwide per capita fish consumption has been growing steadily at 3.6 per cent per year. Over this time, per capita fish consumption has doubled.
Asia consumes more than two-thirds of the world's seafood (though some of this is farmed shellfish). Japan alone accounts for nearly 40 per cent of the world import market. (Combined, the E.U., the U.S. and Canada almost account for the remainder.) Yet, to date, very few Asian consumers discriminate between products in the context of environmental issues and therefore are not targeted by groups like the MSC.
Future expansion in seafood demand is also predicted in Latin America and Africa, where consumers are also likely not to be responsive to eco-labelling of fish. Another problem with eco-labelling is that certification is voluntary, so only fishing companies that stand to profit from adopting a product are likely to do so. Furthermore, encouraging the consumption of "sustainably caught" fish puts additional pressure on presently healthy fish stocks.
So are eco-labels suitable only for some niche markets? Many developing countries are concerned that the promotion of eco-friendly products is happening in markets where food requirements have already been met. They are also concerned that small-scale fishers will be left to sell the unsustainable fish by default. The implication being: if you don't eat it, someone else will. If you don't catch it, someone else will.
Save the oceans! Vote.
Consumer awareness campaigns have distributed a large amount of information and, presumably, this is raising awareness and the profile of fish in society. But the proliferation of certifications and labels does not necessarily ensure that conservation goals will be met.
Organic food labelling is widespread in grocery stores across North America and is considered the most successful eco-labelling program. The California Certified Organic Farmers' eco-label, the predecessor to the 2002 USDA organic food label, has existed since 1973. Yet, from 1991-1998, California increased pesticide use by 40 per cent.
Likewise, seafood awareness programs have had few demonstrable impacts in the market. NGOs play a valuable role in public awareness and should be commended for their efforts. But if the goal is to reduce pressure on wild stocks of fish, then perhaps faith in free-market magic should be questioned and consumer-oriented conservation strategies should be reconsidered.
In addition to their grass roots efforts, NGOs can continue to influence regulations. The National Environmental Trust (NET) found that illegally caught Patagonian toothfish (their original name) would arrive at U.S. ports and, before officials could clear the paperwork, the toothfish would make it to market. Purchasers, then, would not know whether their fish was illegally caught. NET successfully lobbied the U.S. government to require government pre-approval of toothfish before it could be landed.
But not only NGOs influence government action. A citizen's strongest influence is his/her role in electing a government committed to fisheries management through curtailing overcapacity, abolishing flags of convenience, strengthening regulations and ensuring traceability. Many fishing nations are democracies, run by elected governments. Thus, citizens should be capable of reversing the trend of overfishing with their ballot card rather than their seafood wallet card.
In their book In a Perfect Ocean, Daniel Pauly and Jay Maclean point out that vegetarian, farmed fish such as tilapia may be substitutable for carnivorous, wild fish at dinnertime, but they cannot replace the function of wild fish in the ecosystems from which they were extracted (unless, of course, your tilapia is actually hake). Similarly, the ecology of commerce cannot substitute for good global governance.
Related Tyee stories:
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relayer
6 years ago
Thank God I'm vegetarian...
Thank God I'm vegetarian... this depressing story is another example of the lies which we all swallow so easily. If you can stand even more bad news, I refer you to Carol Off's book "Bitter Chocolate":
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/valentines/qa-off.html
Bad news I can handle. It's the lying, from all levels, that gets me down.
Jeffrey J.
6 years ago
Time to boycott
Social activists everywhere are reluctant to exercise their right to boycott a corporations product. Aside from the caterwalling from industry (a non-relevant but irritating byproduct), boycotts must be balanced against potential impacts on employees of target multinationals, their unions, and other factors. At the end of the day, however, many time the right to boycott remains the most effective tool to punish bad behavior. The abuses by multinationals who are killing our ocean have now reached that point. As a result, the right to boycott their products has arrived. Sadly, after trying every other strategy available to try and educate and communcate with these companies, they simply refuse to learn. Great article!
Fiat lux
6 years ago
We don't eat fish, so all
We don't eat fish, so all this is only of environmental interest for us, but....
About 20, or so years ago,the economist Arnold Block, who then was some kind of a bigwig at the Fraser Institute, published a book and was on TV declaring that we should sell all our Crown lands, all lakes and rivers to corporations, and even divide and sell the oceans as "environmental protection measures", because it would be in their own "self interest" to protect them.
"Adam Smith said so".....he didn't but what difference does a lie, or two, make to a good economist, when their whole theory and system is built on lies, eagerly grabbed, used and sold to the public by the "wealth creators" ?
Ed Deak
Bobb999
6 years ago
Support the Moonies, eat Fresh Fish!
Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church
dominates the fresh seafood and sushi trade in North America and who knows where else. Moonie-owned businesses supply Vancouver restaurants and retailers with most of their fresh seafood.
Moon believes he's a new messiah here to complete Jesus' work. Moon also calls himself the "king of the ocean" (a modern day Neptune, perhaps?).
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0604sushi-1-story,0,3736876.story
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/blogs/?p=882
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/13/154750/879
(I can't seem to locate an article I read somewhere about Moon-owned fresh seafood businesses dominating the Vancouver trade).
Moon is probably the biggest single bankroller of conservative causes in the US.He's reportedly injected $Billions into various conservative organizations and political campaigns. He owns the right wing Washington "Moony" Times.
By the standards of the non-moony conservative Christian churches and organizations he's allied with, he is in fact a heretic and blasphemer. But since money talks, criticism and exposure of Moon's activities and influence within the Christian and political right wing, is decidedly muted.
Moon's long term goal is to establish theocratic governments in the US and the world controlled by - you guessed it - his Unification Church!
So, remember, each time you eat fresh seafood, you are supporting financially, Rev. Moon and his crazed conservative agenda, and you're supporting companies that are not necessarily big on fish conservation, either. Bon appetit.
maestro
6 years ago
Farmed salmon: It is my
Farmed salmon:
It is my understanding that the Farmed Salmon food source is by and large imported food made up of...drum roll ....FISH which has been caught elsewhere, often 1000's of miles away.
Given fish tend to be at the top of the food chain...even fish that serve as natural food for other fish which also require a fair amount of natural food sources themselves.
Long Tailpipe Theory applies here...the somewhat "out of sight- out of mind " grassroots impact " at source" is often not figured in.
Hence Farmed Fish appear to be economic use of space and resources but if all things are actually taken into acccount are actually not.
Natural or " wild " fish actual economic impact is not really being taken into account in a broader context. They probably make a far more efficient use of natural resources than the artificially farmed kind.
Fiat lux
6 years ago
Don't forget the antibiotics
Don't forget the antibiotics and other drugs fed to the fish and all large meat operations. E.g. Pigs are fed back with their own manure and every time cattle changes hands they get a fresh series of shots and drugs, sometimes 5-6 times the recommended dosages.
Fish are being fed with similar assortment of chemicals, which then go into the water from their poop and into people's bodies, when they eat the junk.
Why do you think, child obesity is such a problem and why we have bugs immune to antibiotics?
Ed Deak.
Bobb999
6 years ago
Farmed Salmon's toxin levels
...have been found to be far above levels found in wild fish.
As maestro says, the fish pellets fed to farmed salmon come from fish caught elsewhere, typically in waters much more polluted than wild pacific salmon swim in.
PCBs, dioxins, mercury, etc. are found in much higher concentrations in farmed fish.
I believe Health Canada has even acknowledged this ,and has released an advisory warning consumers not eat farmed salmon over-frequently, due to the heightened toxicity.
(As far as I know, Moonies don't yet dominate the BC salmon farming industry, so you can rest easy and eat farmed BC salmon , safe in the knowledge that Rev. Moon isn't benefiting!...However, you may be poisoning yourself, while supporting an industry which threatens wild stocks and livelihoods of fishers, commercial and aboriginal- traditional). Bon appetit!
maestro
6 years ago
Suffice it to say:
I have to admit I have " knowingly " had farmed salmon once...and it wasn't bad.... but then I really don't know what its natural Unfarmed taste would be like.
Farmed salmon , when filleted, tends to have what appears to be interesting growth rings about 1/2 inch apart, it seems.
I presume they are trying to mimic the sockeye salmon flavour and look, as sockeye often being the best tasting and the preferred choice of many.
By and large, we prefer to buy natural "wild" seafood, ie salmon, shrimp, tuna etc. etc. right off the boats tied up at the docks.
clubofrome
6 years ago
At your own risk...
I have warned my local grocers, and other shops as well... if I ever see a farmed salmon on your premise you lose my business, forever. You may not notice the difference in taste between feed lot meat and real meat, and that's just an indication that we've beed numbed and poisoned so we can't taste the difference. Some people still can, and you can too. Buy organic, fresh and local whenever possible. Soon your taste buds will come back to life! The WalMarts of grocery chains should be avoided except in emergencys... like your mother inlaw calls and wants to come for dinner next week...
skeptikool
6 years ago
Tilapia possibilities
I don't have it at hand, but recall a recent article that told of live tilapia being aboard spaceships - not only for food but primarily for their ability to recycle sewage. It is one farmed fish that I think few would object to. (Note to Victoria)
I see great potential to reduce the pressure on other species with it.
If we are not to reach a point of no return, I think it essential to increase areas that are banned to fishing and to "seed" these, as necessary.
To combat illegal bottom trawling, that has caused so much depletion and damage, I would sink snares at suspected areas to snag the offending vessel's equipment
snert
6 years ago
Tasting better is subjective.
clubofrome
I've tasted grass fed beef. We used to buy sides of it. It never came close to a good slice of grain fed beef. The only thing I will put on beef is some salt. Anything else just masks the taste.
The health benefits of one over the other are a different matter.
Fiat lux
6 years ago
snert.....I would be very
snert.....I would be very happy to give you a few steaks of grass fed veal. We have visitors from all over the world and they, and our customers, say they never tasted better meat in their lives.
The "marble" in the grain pumped up junk meat is stinking tallow, plus the other growth hormones, steroids and antibiotics they put into the animals in the feedlots, nothing less than ecological disaster areas, poisoning the ground for miles around with concentrated manure and all the other chemicals.
The secret is not ot let the calves get too old, which is caused by the control of the prices by the feedlot operators, forcing farmers to raise their animals longer than they should be, to get a few extra bucks.
The world's food supply is controlled by a few multinationals, like Cargill, almost as bad as the Soviet kolkhoz system.
Ed Deak.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Clarification
I'm wondering if that is the fat content?
To reactivate your taste buds is a comprehensive plan including fruits and vegtables, and excluding manufactured foods, especially the white death ones.
So generally speaking, feed lot meat: beef, pork, fish or factory poultry does not compare to: The natural, non medicated, free range, organic, relaxed, laid back and seriously easy going chickens. There is no comparison with farmed Salmon at least from what I've heard. But as you say just knowing the health benefits for all involved is enough.
How do we get people away from the super stores? They finally updated the Canada Food Guide, the comparison is like night and day. And still, it could go further. Oh well, all in good time...
God I love horseradish....
Fiat lux
6 years ago
The problem with vegetables
The problem with vegetables is the same as with meats. Full of lousy, stinking, chemicals, some spraued on for transport.
Those of us, used to organic vegies, especially my wife with her acute taste buds,- she can duplicate recipes just by tasting the food,- can detect the chemicals in the greens and much of it goes to the chickens in the winter, when we have to buy.
Then add to it that much, if not most, or all, of the stuff coming up from Mexico and California is nuked at the border, then cooked in microwaves, you end up with worthless food with no values.
Going back to beef. About 3 years ago we couldn't get a butchering date at our processors and ran out of meat. We don't eat much, but it is nice to have some small portions 2-3 times a week. We bought some from Safeway and Save on Foods and also from an independent butcher and they all ended up in the chicken food. We couldn't eat the stuff.
I'll never forget when we had our first garden here, in 1979, after 24 years in Vancouver, and how it brought back the long forgotten tastes of our childhoods.
Ed Deak.
snert
6 years ago
Horseradish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_taster
There in lies the reason for my comment in the first place. I could care less if horseradish dropped off the planet tomorrow. In mild form it enhances nothing and in the strong form it is downright unpleasant to to eat period.
There are 3 degrees of tasters; nontasters, medium tasters and super tasters. In short what you crave someone else may not be able to taste or tolerate. My point is with your generalization that people will acquire a liking to what you think is wonderful.
That's just not the case.
Ed:
Your grass fed veal may or may not be tasty. It certainly sounds healthier. I'm not a big fan of the methods that are used to put meat on my plate but the test again for any process like only grass feeding cattle is what would happen if everybody did it. I think the environmental impact would certainly be different.
I also think that grain feeding cattle for a short period of time before slaughter is an acceptable practice. After all it is the fat that provides the flavour. As to heavily marbled meat. No argument. There is such a thing as too much.
Fiat lux
6 years ago
Millions of acres in Canada,
Millions of acres in Canada, including ours, are not suitable for any other form of food production, but cattle, because of the lack of topsoil and harsh climate. But cattle can graze even in forests and improve the land with their hoofs and manure.
Sheep are also god grazers, but they need protection, while cattle can roam around free.
Ed Deak.
maestro
6 years ago
Ed:
Again...good point...once one travels into the Interior regions, " agricultural " is basically the LIVESTOCK facet of the overall agri-definition ( as opposed to such things as crops etc. ..)
I also liked your comment (QUOTE)
' Sheep are "god" grazers, but they need protection...' I think you meant to say good, but maybe I'm wrong.
Regardless, We need a Bill C-68 exemption for Livestock...who wants to mess with an armed sheep ? Baaaaah "bang- bang" !
Fiat lux
6 years ago
Yes, it was supposed to be
Yes, it was supposed to be "good".
Although I'm not religious by any stretch, I always spell "God" with a capital "G", out of respect for people's sensitivities. On the other hand, "gods" are a different word.
I should slow down and watch my spelling before the spelling censors catch me. But then English was my 5th, so I may be able to get away with a few goofs.
Ed Deak.
woody
6 years ago
hoofs and manure.
Fiat lux said
Fiat lux (Ed Deak) you forgot to mention, how additionally cattle add to the ecosystem by their urinating and defecating into the water sheds, there by releasing a whole host of parasites and diseases into the waters and ground.
snert
6 years ago
Potty training.
woody
And you're gonna take it upon yourself to potty train them, no doubt.
A partial list of some of the host of diseases might be helpful as well, maybe even just one?
maestro
6 years ago
Do cattle(and bears) sh!tie in the woods?
Yeah...
Diapers for cattle....now there's a solution and hence a potential market.
Also, have the choice of (i) disposable bovine diapers or (ii) the environmentally - friendly re-useable cotton type diapers .
If that fails, house break 'em.
That solved, Woody's next pet project.... farting cows...those bovine bastards blasting holes in the ozone layer.
Yeoman
6 years ago
Cows and Ecosystems
Its all about the stocking density and the rotation schedule. Properly managed situations can be relatively benign but it takes good management (that most are not willing to do).
Back to fish, we have to start outlawing trawls, radically reducing take, declaring large no-fishing zones and limiting ocean acidification and toxins (phosphate, nitrate, organochlorines etc)
snert
6 years ago
What Health Canada said about salmon.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/2004/2004_45_e.html
BLONDE PITBULL
6 years ago
maestro
You're funny, honey.
maestro
6 years ago
Blonde Pitbull
Honey, ya missed me by 3 days...
...maybe next year.
BTW Same time, same place.
Have a good weekend.
woody
6 years ago
SNERTS DISEASE LIST
snert said, A partial list of some of the host of diseases might be helpful as well, maybe even just one?
OK snert, here are just a few.
Fiat lux
6 years ago
We've been raising cattle
We've been raising cattle here for 28 years, fully organic, no shots or any medications, about 10 acres of room per head, which causes no pollution. No illnesses whatsoever.
Neither have we heard anybody around here having any of those illnesses in their herds.
In any case, the main cause for cattle illnesses are crowded conditions, as are in the fishfarms and feedlots.
BSE is a manmade illness, caused by feeding cattle with the ground up bodies of dead animals, especially of sheep, that carry the BSE virus, to fatten them and put delicious "marble" into their meat, demanded by the public.
Ed Deak.
snert
6 years ago
I'm amazed.
woody
You missed anthrax.
Sure they can spread disease but generally they don't if managed correctly.
See what Ed said.
BLONDE PITBULL
6 years ago
Maestro you're confusing me...
I told you you were funny because of your bovine diaper/ housebreak/ farting comments. They made me laugh.
Now I'm confused by "(me) missed you by three days" and "maybe next year" "BTW same time, same place". The only comment I truly understand is "have a good weekend".
Which I am doing so, thank you, hope yours is happy, cheery as well.
maestro
6 years ago
Blonde pitbull
Ahhh....c-mon...
I appreciate your wit as well.
.....ie your " honey " comment .
Valentines Day was 3 days ago yesterday.
Weekends we are allowed to kick back and not be so serious as we attempt to clean up the world's problems. Like snert above talking about " anthrax " . I thought Anthrax was a rock group . However, whether it is a Rock group or disease, you don't hear much about Anthrax anymore.
Now I am soon onto Global Warming/Climate Change, which is what is also found in bovine diapers..... its all Bullsh!te.
woody
6 years ago
AM TRACK
Snot said, You missed anthrax, .
woody
6 years ago
Maestro Side tracked by Pit Bull
Maestro said , whether it is a Rock group or disease, you don't hear much about Anthrax anymore.
Not true Maestro, just the other day on news, the residents of White rock wanted Amtraks removed from their area.
( Bovine, diaper/ housebreak/ farting, hah, hah, good one)
There was one other tid bit in my bovine remarks that I thought you would have picked up on by now, But, that Blond Pit bull,seems to have ya "side tracked".
BLONDE PITBULL
6 years ago
Eureka!
Okay, now I understand. I put the "honey" in because it rhymed...maybe I should have spelt it to match "funny"....
So I'm going to leave this conversation now because some feel I'm distracting you. Cheers, enjoy your weekend y'all.
snert
6 years ago
Woody
I wouldn't touch your nom de net with a 10' pole. It might give people the wrong idea as to just what kind of person you really are besides childish.
Anyhow, I'm glad you filled in all the unnecessary blanks in the disease ridden world open range cattle.
woody
6 years ago
snot nice to to ridicule
Holy woody erections snot, lighten up, take two Viagra , some palm oil and call me in the morning.( Assuming you’re a male)
snert
6 years ago
Entertainment
And I thought that only caused blindness. In your case it appears to have caused perpetual immaturity as well.
woody
6 years ago
pocket pool
snert said,
And I thought that only caused blindness.
Snert, you know better than that, what it causes is, hair to grow on the palm of your hands.
snert
6 years ago
I rest my case.
I rest my case.
maestro
6 years ago
snert: rest your case? "court of appeal"
Actually do a " search " for cattle diseases involving cattle...I found Blue Tongue...potential for Lymes disease., etc. etc.. Quite a bit out there....mostly potential...so as not to cause a "stampede of fear". (Sorry I had to say that).
Mad Cow disease...case in point...greater odds of winning the lottery than this " over - milked " (sorry had to say that too )Public fear and hysteria. How many times did we see that same video of the ONE stumbling cow which allegedly had Mad Cow disease ?
Gee, maybe if I added some home brew to its food and added 10W30 oil to the barn floor I could achieve the same " effect " ..it looks like Mad Cow...therefore it must be, right ?
Or the " Bird Flu panic " in the Lower Maninland a few years back . A couple of Asian parties near us hobby farm and keep all sort of ducks, geese, peacocks etc...roaming freely...as pets . I thought they'd be caught and put down....nothing happened. Why or why not ?
I've seen these types of hysterias before (EXAMPLE: remember those planes aerial spraying(???) all over the Lower Mainland a few years back to kill some bug/pest ? Gee I hope they got them all, yet what did it possibly do to us? ) and likely see more hysterias again ...and whether the so-called Pro-Activeness by the Gov't actually cures or prevents future occurrences of the alleged problem is always another discussion.
Personally, I think much of it is smoke and mirrors, the appearance of action by Gov't after Gov't wittingly or unwittingly making it appear epidemic , yet with holes in the logic which one can drive a convoy through. All it really does is breed skepticism and cynicism, except for those that lap it up, which is unfortunately often the majority.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Oh, Dr Snert....
Too bad for your camp that cannot improve their tasting ability by altering intake of chemicals and garbage food. In order to promote organic living you hear much about the improved nutrient content of these foods, and that they taste better. That's my experience and those that also care about what they eat. Maybe it's the way that these foods are supposed to taste compared to the other crap. Either way, take the test, and see for yourself. You will hopefully discover what food was meant to taste like and also learn to reject the garbage that they try and sell you at your local super giant food mart. We can reactivate many of our senses. Change comes from our way of thinking. The road rage driver who only sees obstacles in front of him to pass and get around. One day may tire of trying to get ahead of everyone, who is patiently waiting their turn in line. Someday this person may discover that there are others sharing the same planet as this egocentric individual. It's possible that one day it just clicks and this former unaware, becomes a contributing member of society instead of a stressful burden. People are de-sensitized to violence too. What you see on TV, movies, hear on the radio, is benign until it hits you. Once you're a victim... soon you're an advocate for peace! Where were you before? It's not only our taste buds that have been numbed but all of our senses. What we see, hear, read, taste, smell. Numbed and dumbed. It's how you vote for the Bushes of this world, it's why you eat at McDonalds. Call it awareness. Reactivate your senses and become part of a sustainable society. I thank you for taking the time to listen. Happy Monday everyone!
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Exito-toxins...:-\
Good posts clubofrome...
If you guyz don't mind, I thought I would get my 2 cents in...:-) There is this thing called "Exito-toxins", basically msg, that is put in almost ALL no-organic food, and is quite addictive. There is over 100 names for it :-\...yesh, look it up. Anyways, THAT is why garbage food tastes "good". You can retrain your taste buds, that is the good news :-)
REAL FOOD is an acquired taste, but once you got it, you never go back. Than you pepper it with sustainable, free-range, happy :-), earth-friendly, and things like that, and it starts to "taste" even better...
Cheers :-),
Bear
maestro
6 years ago
REAL FOOD is also an acquired ability....
It would be interesting to have someone post some data as to so - called ORGANIC food operations(farms etc.) in the GVRD/Lower Mainland. Maybe even provide a map pinpointing them.
I vaguely recall within our own City someone advertisng ORGANIC poultry operation...I don't know if it exists anymore.
However, what I find interesting is the growth in certain so-called agri- sectors...dirty little secret is much of the blueberry crop is now being used in Winery production.
Also Vancouver Island , via news reports, is itself becoming a major player in Wine production and dedicating agri- fields for the production of Grapes for the same wineries.
I personally don't equate production of alcohol -based products such as beer, wine etc. as an agri- product...I myself consider equating "agri" with "FOOD". However, I am sure the agri - numbers include potential food which instead ends up dedicated to producing booze.
Right to Bear: To be honest, I don't notice a lot of difference in certified Organic and what we buy off the shelf...(excluding of course things like those bland cardboard tomatoes).
To me, it's often like comparing Coke and Pepsi as to differences in taste. Organic, in my view, is no different an ethereal abstract marketing tool than Non organic. However, if one perceives a difference, go for it.
eight
6 years ago
Organic Farms
Here's one link with a list of farms, markets and services:
http://www.ffcf.bc.ca/Food&Agri.html
Right to Bear
6 years ago
No perfect, but better eh.....
Maestro said: "I vaguely recall within our own City someone advertising ORGANIC poultry operation...I don't know if it exists anymore."
There is "leaks" in almost everything, but I suppose it is my choice if I choose to support a, although likely not perfect, but indeed better system, of production. The organic process or "system" is also promoting better health for us and the future generations... I am not a scientist, but I believe in the certified organic process, and I love to support the small farms, if I cannot grow my own.
Interesting note however, the salmon feedlot owners, are attempting to get these altered, sick fish, certified as organic. So far, this is not even close to going through, at least that is what I heard...in fact it is a bit of a joke. But it is interesting that this is what these "takers" are attempting to do. Money, money, money eh? No care or concern about the human race, the wild fish, and Mother Earth in general...Pathetic.
Cheers,
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
Addictive!
So true Bear! I remember those days in a previous life where for no apparent reason my vehicle would take over and pull into a fast food drive thru and a voice from somewhere would order a burger, fries and a large coke... There was nothing I could do about it. It was the addiction, like some ethereal abstract compulsion to poison my self as a result of the additives contained within to subvert my well being. Hence making me a slave to the evil corporations of fast food. I take my hat off to those that have cleansed their bodies of these unwanted preditors like Cola's and Drive thrus, and white death sugar and flour. I suggest though we find a different way to market organic food, as we can see the example above, skeptics are still poisoned and only see what their masters tell them too see. If they could cleanse their bodies their minds may follow....
maestro
6 years ago
right to bear :
Re " Organic " Farmed salmon:
What if they actually used a natural food source , yet is 100 % processed food , but they used no antibiotics nor preservatives etc. ... so the final end product had no non -natural chemical etc. residue ?
H-O-W they are raised or obtained may be irrelevant.
Would that suffice to be deemed ORGANIC ?
Given what you say, the very "fact" that the Salmon Farmers are seeking to be certified "Organic" basically re-iterates what I have posted before on this basic topic ...what does ORGANIC mean legally or what is required for certification ?
These salmon farmers may see that their UN natural farmed salmon may still meet the " certified -Organic " benchmarks with minor adjustments. They then tap into the ORGANIC market like everyone else who tries .
Just a thought.
maestro
6 years ago
eight:
eight:
Thanks for the Link:
PS The end is also very interesting..ie availability of various food items re: times of the year.
Stump
6 years ago
organic farm fish
The reason for the drugs is the fact that the fish are so packed together they get sick. I'd be surprised if farmed fish could survive w/out the drugs.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Time for a change...
Amen to that club...once you learn the "secret" of feeling clean, good, energetic, and sharp, there is no going back :-) Oh they may try, but "Truth will set you what...." or "A mind stretched is never the same". :-)
To grow fish in such unnatural close containment conditions, as like cattle (I am a ranch gal), antibiotics are a necessary evil. So you are still loading your body with substances which has been proven to do more harm than good... Also, these fish (salmon) are predators, soooo, they have to eat protein. It takes 4-6lbs or protein to make 1lb. of salmon protein. Are they getting this protein from feedlots, slaughter houses (spinal cords perhaps BSE???), or the oceans. All of which pose a problem in one way or another. Anyways, if from the feedlots, are the cattle organic?....NOOOOOO. If from the ocean, is this a sound and sustainable approach to raising food?...NOOOOOO So you see Maestro, problems, many problems...
If a salmon or fish farm can produce fish completely clean or ALL toxins, would I think this THAN was a good idea? How could I? So far, it is impossible to do with large numbers of fish living together in tanks, and secondly, it is STILL unsustainable, and a "luxury" the Earth can no longer support.
Maestro, our toxic load in our bodies is HIGH. We need to find ways of bringing it down, and soon. Eating commercial foods, and contributing to a deadly market by not using your conscience and todays evidence provided, to support the sustainable, earth friendly market, is without excuse and beyond reproach with the information provided today. There is no excuse to not do the RIGHT thing anymore, and time, relative to US and the EARTH, is indeed running out...
Yes, there is probably "leaks" in the organic industry, but it is better then the contaminated, toxic, cancer-causing, sick, mutant, one big giant leak industry that has been allowed to be in play by us thus far...
Maestro, I believe, it is time for a change...:-)
Peace man,
Bear
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Exactly Stump...
Thanks Stump... My point exactly :-)
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
The question is moot...
If we allowed salmon (and other species) to flourish in the wild, there would be no need for the farmed variety. Wild species should be protected at all costs. The farms must go and fishing by unsound practices must stop. Just as clear cutting is no way to forest, slash and burn agriculture, or farmed salmon are unsafe practices. The next few crises beyond the often debated climate change model will be more specific and measureable. More species will disappear like the Atlantic Cod and soon there will nothing there to replace it with... well except for that farmed salmon and GMO sidekicks by Monsanto. Bon Appetite!
maestro
6 years ago
TGIM
TGIM:
If ya'll recall TV's " Married with Children" ..one episode ol Peg Bundy bought 3 - legged poultry...said it was branded a Chernobyl Chicken.
Do we actually check for such potential ?
Point is, we are all aware of the alleged evils of concentrated food production,and shortcuts that pole- vault various portions of the natural food chain.
A Fish Farmer may acquire say "ground up fish product" from say South America, it has nothing else added "all natural" ...feeds his penned salmon stock...adds no antibiotics etc. its thus " organic"... right? and also perhaps by its ABSENCE of certain criteria that would
otherwise deem it ineligible for such certification , right?
I doubt there is much we eat, Organic OR Non- organic that doesn't have some levels of pollutants and non- natural contaminants etc.
Few of us would have the time, inclination , nor the funds to test all the food we eat...but it would be very interesting for an "Investigative Report" on the comparison betwen the Organic and Non organic foods...and analyze and compare for such things as nutritive comparisons, chemicals residues, natural pathogens etc etc. .... wouldn't it?
It's like the "Green" craze years ago, many labelled their products "green" and it meant nothing, but helped sell the product given the zeitgeist at the time.
We can believe either beleive the marketing, or simply compare some objective un - biased data.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Closed Loop
As pointed out earlier the more processing the less value in nutrients. Did you see "Super Size Me." As if we needed proof that eating nothing but McDonalds would be harmful and eventualy fatal. The earth is a closed loop, what we do to it we do to ourselves. You can't dump waste into the oceans or expect agricultual run off to not impact our bodies. Land, Water and Air. All shared and all part of the web required for survival. Without admitting that these problems exist, there is no point debating fish farms, or the possibility of organic farmed salmon. That would be the highest form of corruption of the word organic BTW. Open pen fish farming and herding of animals into pens has inherent dangers, they are failed experiments that only exist for wealth creation. Apply Ed's theory here and the circle is now complete.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
It's about better choices bro...
Maestro said: but it would be very interesting for an "Investigative Report" on the comparison between the Organic and Non organic foods...and analyze and compare for such things as nutritive comparisons, chemicals residues, natural pathogens etc etc. .... wouldn't it?
It has been done Maestro, perhaps many times. Google it... Evidence is overwhelming how much healthier organic food is bro.
Everything we eat has a certain level of pollutants absolutely, but really what we are talking about is AMOUNTS. Given the fact, the air we breathe is polluted, everything is affected...so what. We are looking to perhaps use the less toxic, more humane, more earth-friendly choice right??.
By the way Maestro, just a point about how much the salmon farms care, they used SLICE and MALICHITE GREEN in some of the tanks to rid of disease and lice on the salmon. These banned substances are considered neuro-toxins, and cancer causing. I wonder how many deadly concoctions get through without being found...??? THAT is the commercial $$$$$ industry... yesh .:-\
Bear
Right to Bear
6 years ago
...failed experiments...
I love this club...
"Open pen fish farming and herding of animals into pens has inherent dangers, they are failed experiments that only exist for wealth creation."
I would only add ... "and are signs of an over-affluent nation".
Bear
snert
6 years ago
Oh, Dr Clubofrome
clubofrome
There's nothing wrong with the tasting ability of people in my "camp" whatever that may mean. It would require desensitizing my taste buds to reach the level of your "camp".
Once again you are assuming that the status you have achieved for yourself is not only the best place to be but the only place to be. If that is not egocentric then I don't know what is.
I can just visualize you now being second in line behind an elderly couple who are driving at 20km below the speed limit cursing and swearing at all the people passing the both of you all the while you mumble the words 'road rage'.
There is also repressed road rage. If you get angry at someone even if you don't act it out you are just as vulnerable to distraction as those that do.
As far as allowing wild salmon to flourish is concerned that would be a great idea except that the price would go sky high because the just wouldn't be enough fish to feed all the people who you are converting to your healthier lifestyle.
The problem, plain and simple, is just too many people for the resources of the planet, resources which will run out sooner or later. All we can do is what we do best and that is prolong the arrival of the inevitable.
maestro
6 years ago
Right to bear
I am sure they have done these types of analysis' and tested Organic vs Non organic. The real question is how often and what are the standards in each jurisdiction. If I run a stand at a Farmers Market and call my products " Organic"...are they ? Who knows and who will challenge it ?
Bottled water, "all the rage"...falls under a different regulatory body than tap water. Tap water(ONE producer..GVRD) is tested several times a day, but bottled water(SEVERAL manufacturers ) apparently only needs to be tested 2 - 3 times a year via a different regulatory body ...even though much bottled water is simply the same tap water re -packaged.
Perception of bottled water as "Organic water "???
Things change so fast, and how may organic producers come and go? A family member purchases free range chicken eggs at a road side stand...are these inspected? Who knows....?
The irony is that organic farmers are often small producers, are the not ?, not some multi - national corporation " Organic Inc." which would seem like an oxy-moron. If they are small producers, monitoring and regulating them adds costs, overhead,etc. Once they get a certain size, my guess is there is the temptation to go non organic...for various reasons. How much of this is really faith and good -will, is it not?
Who are the largest organic producers?
Also, I would be curious with respect to the side bar of insurance....do insurance companies get involved, and have certain requirements for coverage, which may lean the producer to the non - organic side, again for various reasons .
FISH FARMS, yes, we are aware of the methods of raising penned fish....and the way the environment is affected, but again my point is that it would be interesting to see how they would be "certified Organic Farmed salmon" ..ie avoid O-L-D methods and then replace them with ____??? Perhaps large tanks on land which many have suggested?
In my view, organic will have its advocates and fill a niche'. However, to rely on it will not sustain a majority of the population. The die have been cast years ago...but thats a whole other discussion.
Peace Bro...
Stump
6 years ago
Organic standards
Your rhetorical questions actually have answers. A very quick google search turns up recent regulations for Canadian organic standards.
[url=http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2006/20061221-x6/html/extra-e.html[/url]
As to small producers versus big organic corporations, the allure of organic foods is proving too good to resist for many large food companies and they are joining the trend towards healthier, more natural foods.
Heck, the Western Family brand honey that I buy is organic.
Beyond regulating the labelling and doing its best to ensure food producers abide by organic standards, there's not much the gov't can really do to ensure those standards are met... especially if uneducated consumers are buying from unethical producers. If people aren't even willing to read the label to find out what they are putting in their bodies, really, what can be done?
As to the fly-by-night nature of organic growers, most of my experience with organic food comes from local farmers' markets... and I keep seeing the same farmers year in and year out selling their produce, so I would question that assumption.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Trust
I think there are many easy answers to these seemly common questions. How do I know what is being sold at these markets? Fair question. Lets look at that one issue. The difference is when I go to the farmers market I can talk to the farmer. I can talk to other consummers than are there and some that know more about this farm or that product than I do. The difference is you can develop a personal relationship with your food source. Try that with Super Store, WalMart or McDonalds. Some skeptisism is healthy, too much is poison for our society. Poison you see portrayed in Bowling for Columbine. How the media and governments breed fear into our daily lives. Keeping us on edge and fighting each other for scraps. That's not how I choose to live. I will buy organic produce on trust and continue to buy organic even when the occaisional fraud slips through. But he is less likely to slip through at the farmers market in my opinion. Where you buy you organic produce may be more the issue. So the broken record continues... support local, organic growers, talk to people and form communities. Life should err on the simple side not the complex side. Our health and well being depend on it.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Last Thought....
The headline says consummers... As a functon of society we always turn to economics for the points of reference for these and almost all arguments debated in these forums and in the media. We would appear to be the only species on the planet that lives this way. To exclude ecology, or ignore it completely would in my opinion be our species fundamental flaw.
snert
6 years ago
Just where does it say that?
club of rome
clubofrome
6 years ago
No Offence Snert...
Hello Snert,
Thanks for the question. I've learned that the human body performs and functions best when happy. Lifes little rules and truths. You've seen the list... If you open it close it. If you want to borrow it, ask permission. This is another one of those truisms. You don't make important decisions when you're mad. You make those decisions when you are happy. When your mind is clearest is when your stress is lower and you are more relaxed. Over stress is never good and that means mental and physical. Outside factors may control your behavior. You hear on the radio, there is no such thing a job security in todays corporate society. You worry about money, you loose focus and are distracted by factors out of your control. Stress, bad for the body and the mind. You go home and kick the dog in frustration. Sorry, I'm not the best person to summarize this topic, but there are shelves of books on it, and I have only scratched the surface. But I have seen and read enough to know that a happy body is a healthier body. So I jump ahead with my own conclusion that life should be less complicated not more. Hope that clarifies a bit of what I wish were volumes between the lines previously written.
snert
6 years ago
I'll not disagree with you, clubofrome but
one has to make sure that they understand the difference between managing stress and avoiding it. Also, more importantly, one has to learn to gauge stress tolerance levels in others. What may be bugging the hell out of you may not be causing a ripple for someone else. People are different and shouldn't all be stuffed in the same box.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
I'll be back...
Hey all, been interesting...Thanks. I had shoulder surgery today, so for now typing is ssssslow. I will bow out for a day, but I will keep up here, and be back... Looking forward to reading you'all...
Peace Bro's :-)
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
Ron Obvious
I didn't think I could speak in any more general terms. So I don't know what box you are referring to. As to stuffing people into them, I believe that would be unlawful confinement. While many deserve it, it's the last thing on my mind snert. But I agree with you we should be wary of others stress levels. And remember stress not just on people, but stress on the ecology and stress on our infrastructures. I believe it was the talented and smart "Right to Bear", who asks what are we doing to keep growth in check? Anyhoo, I think we have kicked this one around enough and agree that managing stress is a concern. BTW, a wise choice not to disagree with me, cause that makes my blood boil!!!
clubofrome
6 years ago
Speedy Recovery
Best wishes for your surgery "Bear" and a speedy recovery. We need you ready for the playoffs!
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Feet typing...
I am typing with my feet... (joking)
;-D
Thanks for your warm words "clubofrome"... I plan on attending the playoffs for sure...
Peace Bro,
Bear :-)
maestro
6 years ago
Furthermore...
Like I said....
If it works for you more power to you...
Simply define " organic ".
As long as it doesn't pollute or use chemicals, pesticides or steroids or...is it organic ?
I have had family , and still have some extended family members who have been green grocers for decades...50+ years...some actually still farm as well.
Their main crops are corn and pumpkins...very little fickle and perishable crops they don't bother with.
That's also the norm I see in my travels right up the Fraser Valley .
Suffice it to say...If they had relied on a local organic supply market, they'd probably have gone broke and closed years ago.
PS Honey is another interesting industry, much of it is due to the pollination facet to crops as the prime cash cow...the honey is often a bonus.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
A good start......
"Organic" is a tough industry for sure Maestro. I perfer to support the organic industry, and that would include the organic honey industry :-P lol
The organic industry is a growing industry, so hopefully the prices will come down a bit for those with kids, or are also unable to grow there own food...it can be quite costly. It is getting better all the time though and the world is learning more and more about the organic industry, as they are indeed adjusting their choices in this direction...
"As long as it doesn't pollute or use chemicals, pesticides or steroids or...is it organic ?"
I don't know bud :-\ but it does sound like a gooood start :-)
Have a good one Maestro, and thanks for the visit.
Peace brother Maestro,
Bear
Stump
6 years ago
definition of organic
assuming your question isn't rhetorical...
one definition can be found at:
www.ota.com/definition/quickoverview.html
maestro
6 years ago
Stump:
You know me...
....always to the meat and the marrow of the matter.(sorry for the organic alliteration)
Now pass the broccoli .