Gaulois, Rafe's dead right and probably forgotten more about the 'Quebec' problem than you will ever know!

Quebec is going to leave Canada because the residents believe in a free lunch; reality will be much different.

Controlling Canada are a bunch of elitests, who believe that the Canadian public at large are too dim to understand Canadian politics and they know better. Why has this all come about?

Bilinguelism for one! If one doesn't speak French, you can never succed in politics or senior bureaucracy. For many Canadians, speaking French is a non starter, why? Who speaks French other than Quebec and New Brunswick? Ssure there are pocket of Francophones in Canada, but just that, pocckets. In Vancouver more people speak Chinese, or vietnamese, or Tagalog, or many other languages than French.

Very soon the other-phones will soon see the lunacy of Canadian two language policy and demand change and if no change comes will split.

This will be all the easier if Quebec splits and sad fact is, Quebec will turning from a have not province to a 3rd world country.

agreed Grumpy:

well maybe 2nd world country...

while the tag-team of BC & Alberta start delivering KO punches to other parts of North America, Vancouver becomes a 'free-port' and Alberta shepherds their borders into a new 'Texas north'.

Don't forget. with global warming, Churchill Ma. becomes an all weather port!

Grumpy:

People rarely change their mind by discussing on the Net. I will try my bit anyway.

When you say "Quebec is going to leave Canada because the residents believe in a free lunch; reality will be much different."

Is that possible that perhaps these thoughts are the result of 30 years of brainwashing reading the Canadian press that you enjoy so much trashing otherwise in so many areas? Do you really think that "the Quebec residents believe in a free lunch" more than anywhere else??? Are Québécois so "distinct" to enjoy such free lunches and therefore must be from some other planet or genetic makeup? Don't think so.

Have you ever thought that there are some people that tremendously profit by sending regularly the masses on these ethnic frenzies and forget more fundamental governance issues. No need to bash Quebec over this. "DéjÃ*-vu?" they say with all respect.

Typo: "déjÃ*-vu".

Interesting that I cannot type a with an accent grave (French) on this new media...

Gaulois is right, this is one area where dear old Rafe (and I am not saying that sarcastically) has not gone beyond orthodoxy. As a BC er having lived in Quebec for 20 years, I can honestly say that Quebec is different culturally as well as linguistically from Anglophone Canada. It would perhaps raise less hackles if we were to look at the notion of "nation" in the way the FN peoples do, not in terms of "nation state" but in terms of culture and language. Thus Canada is a society comprising a number of nations, the various FN's, Quebec, Acadia, and Newfoundland. There is nothing unusual in this. Think of the UK with England, Wales and Scotland or FRance with Bretagne, Alsace, the Basquesw, and Provence - all are nations. Nor need any of the componant parts become separate nation states, as long as they have sufficient autonomy and their cultures, languages and historic rights are protected.

It should be noted that the negative examples that Rafe raises of "nations within states" are the result of the dominant culture-nation state oppressing the minorities. The majority of people are reasonable, if Franco had not presecuted the Basques and Catalans there would have been little separatism.

Worldwide it seem that nations split up into ethnic groups.
It is hard to keep tally on all the new nations that spring up, each one claiming it was unable to exist properly within the nation it seperated from.
Ask yourself if that is a good thing?
To me it means that nobody wants to try to co-operate, or perhaps that the people who initiate these seperations see an opportunity to become big frogs in a small pond?
No, that was not an ethnical slur!
People in Vancouver have learned that Multiculture can be rewarding!
Yes it means dropping some of our outdated concepts, but the rewards are many.
I agree that Canada has gone too far by insisting that we shall be bilingual, particularily when people in Quebec refuse to admit they understand english, just to be vengeful.
Such are the problems with large countries, in other places they have similar problems with dialects.
Strictly on a "me first" basis we could probably do well by advocating BC as a nation of its own; but eventually we might wind up with cross-border problems as we now face with the USA?
Have you travelled abroad and found borders every few hours? new rules and denominaions etc.?
It is more than annoying and really serves nobody well.

Rose coloured glasses abound with Quebec, oh yes, they are hard done by. all those billions of dollars spent in Quebec is just a big boo hoo. They want a free lunch and our politicians are stupid enough to give it to them.

If quebec goes cut the apron strings, including pensions etc. Then help the local native populations to reclaim their national lands.

"Nor need any of the componant parts become separate nation states, as long as they have sufficient autonomy and their cultures, languages and historic rights are protected."

Anarcho: there is a slippery path here when the economic centres of decisions are done strictly in one linguistic/cultural sphere and held decoupled from the cultures, languages and historic rights. How do you enjoy for instance having your economic centres of decisions located in Washington, DC???

Putting these cultures, languages and historic aspects in a neat little box managed by the State end up emptying all the dynamic classes in the group, i.e. entrepreneurial class, professionnal class, trade labour/tech class, and most critically the youth. One ends up killing the group by sucking out its best elements. Globalisation is certainly not helping this matter and I will point out that Canada's sovereignty is drifting away when all these dynamic classes drift away for the $ almighty.

Has Ignatieff used the word 'nation' to describe Quebec recently? Or are we digging into his academic material. If he used it since entering the leadership contest, then he's clearly a liability. Let's be pragmatic: we can't have a P.M. or any federalist party leader using that word carelessly when the country was and possibly is still at risk. If he used it in an academic debate about the EU, the Balkans, etc. then so what. Let the comment gather must on the bookshelves and just laugh as loud as possible when the Bloc brings it up.

One of the reasons some of Harper's fiecest defenders are in Quebec of all places is because they finally see an English Canadian who is willing to accomodate them without forcing them to recite the federalist catachism. He's an english Canadian who doesn't hold his nuts and tell Quebecers how they make him feel so unique and special in the world. There's none of that in his political makeup.

Rafe is absolutely right about Trudeau's approach to Quebec nationalists - give their proxies all the candy they can reasonably expect, but slit their throats (figuratively speaking!) as soon as they breathe a word about genuine separation or constitutionally entrenched priviledges. This isn't politics - it's survival.

Gaulois, I agree completely with what you say about the need for opposition to globalism and the need for local control of economics. (In fact it is one of the mainstays of my world view)

Alive, it doesn't have to be that way. People can, and do, cooperate. In Latin America - a continent plagued by a multitude of nation states - they are beginning to pull together with the concept of the Bolivarian Revolution. Few Catalans wish to separate from Spain because they have been granted autonomy. Refusal to deal with the cultural-linguistic aspects by the dominant power however fuels separation. Look at it this way, separation is the bad karma of the dominators. And as I said before the problem is not the concept of nation, but that of nation state. The two are not the same, as much as some people would like to confuse them.

Re Quebec

Usually ,...when something is a bad idea it will eventually collapse...(unless you let the politicians and bureaucrats get involved, then we redefine immortality and legacy.....or at least add the nouveau definitions to the Oxford Dictionary and the Thesaurus).

Really.... was the cost of catering to Quebec worth it ??? Maybe then...but not now.

Bedroom privileges after divorce ??? ...or cheap sleazy Federal politics masking a rape of the rest of Canada.

Quebec simply keeps corrupt Federal Gov'ts in power...these same Gov'ts spouting Human Right and anti discrimination etc etc. for the rest of us, yet turning a blind ass- kissing eye to 8 million + potential votes.

Ain't that political hostage - taking as well as political rape?

The Canada me and my family live and work in is multi-cultural rooted, but becoming increasingly very integrated. The local U.N. is here , ie Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Japanese, Russian, European etc etc. but our kids play together and we all get along great.

However,..our dealing with the ex- patriate Quebecers is, unfortunately , ( and disproportionately to other groups) by and large a Gallic know -it all - "shit don't stink " arrogance they import in their "new" provinces' home dealings...integration with the rest of us ain't part of it. This likely happens due to Federal "distinct society" encouragement in Catch 22 fashion.

Trudeau simply coddled them,and ultimately made it more official via Federal endorsement . To change or wean them off the Federal vote -buying teat is a huge, nearly impossible job. Only solution is they in Quebec get diluted by the Non Francophone immigrants,..then lose their stranglehold...and the rest of Canada gains.

Sad to see , either before, during and after every Federal Election how the Quebec francophones are catered to like some kneejerk programming.

Having two countries within one is illogical and more to the point, two countires is certainly NOT cheaper than one.

"Only solution is they in Quebec get diluted by the Non Francophone immigrants,..then lose their stranglehold...and the rest of Canada gains. "

maestro: Lord Durham tried this over 150 years ago. Did not work.

"However,..our dealing with the ex- patriate Quebecers is, unfortunately , ( and disproportionately to other groups) by and large a Gallic know -it all - "shit don't stink " arrogance they import in their "new" provinces' home dealings...integration with the rest of us ain't part of it."

maestro: Let's see who has got the "arrogance" here. Most francophones living outside Quebec (never mind the next generation) assimilate at a record pace, at least the ones that live in the real world outside the world of the feds. Don't think they can integrate anymore than this. Now try comparing their situation with what happens with anglophones in Quebec with the best schools, universities and health services in the country. No I do not kiss ass.

Canadians love to think they are superior to the Gringos because they think they aren't racist. Fine. Just say "Quebec" and "Indian Land claims" and the white sheets come out.

Wow. So much anti-Quebec bigotry...

We've already got the classic anti-Quebec trips (all of which have been much propogated throughout Canada w/o much explanation):

- Quebec would be a third world country without Canada (heh)

- Immigrants will overwell Quebec / English culture will overwell Quebec (you don't even know about la Revolution Tranquille/the Language Laws?)

- Promoting Quebecois culture negatively affects anglophones. This is the most common, yet likewise, the most stupid belief that anti-Quebec bigots hold. tell me, is speaking two languages such a horrific thing? Most people in the world speak an average of three languages, myself I speak four. This is not some sort of disadvantage. Likewise, is exposure to other cultures such a bad thing? Personally, I strongly believe (as a native English speaker) that strengthening Quebecois cultural and social institutions and promoting them across the country is the most beneficial cultural program our country can pursue. Something that has made it more acceptable to promote the rights and culture of First Nations peoples and other ethnic minorities in Canada.

I think the sensible approach to a healthy relationship betweeen Canada and Quebec lies with Quebecois feeling that they are an important part of the puzzle that is Canada and that they're unique cultural perspective is given the freedom to express itself.

I would like to correct the poster who claimed that UNESCO is an organization devoted to world peace.... UNESCO deals with world culture. Since Quebec is a distinct Canadian (as oppposed to an imported French) culture that makes up 1/3 of our country, far bigger than many countries in the world, it is only right that they are represented at the international body for world culture.

As it is our options as part of the anglophone power structure are twofold:

1) Promote "Quebecois" culture and the "deux nations, un pays" that Ignatieff has managed to so disgust Rafe here with. Horror of horrors, indeed. This will surely destroy our fair nation.

Or

2) Create a paradigm of anglophone versus quebecois culture and politics. This seems to be what Trudeau/Cretien and now Rafe have promoted. Let's give'm some small concessions, but prevent any strong institutions from taking root.

Meh.

Sorry for any spelling errors or radical factual inaccuracies.

gardensnake says

Skewed your culture numbers there didn’t you gardenrake, I doubt if its even 25% (1/4) of Canada, and that’s only all of those who can speak french and not necessarily fluent(Canadian) french.
In addition if your so keen on cull-ture why aren’t you promoting the “first culture” the Native culture , how many native languages do you speak, I’ll bet not one.

Excellent point Anarcho. The bigotry isn't far from the surface and bubbles up at every opportunity if you say the magic words.

Gardenrake also said

What is this puzzle crap, there’s no puzzle, its called spoiled. Its give- me, give-me, and give-me more....

Calling someone a bigot, is demonstrating a lack of ability for a debate. It seems this is how Canada is run > telling it like it is with Quebec, your a bigot. It's sad, very sad. Quebec will leave confederation, but what is left of Canada will have no truck or trade with the revolted nation.
- New Foundland will want it part of Labradour returned.
- The various First Nations (wearing bedsheets) will want their land back.
- Ontario will demand a corridor to the Maritimes.
- The Canadian government will demand back all Federal investment in Quebec.
- Bombardier will leave North America and centre in Europe.
- The USA will pick up the pieces and laugh all the way to the bank.

Someone has to tell Quebec the facts of life; want to leave Canada - fine, but do not expect 1 iota of helpor money after you leave.

When an individual has been bullied or abused it will usually take them most of their lives to overcome it. In reality, the rage will always be there. When you are unaware of the sources of your problems, the rage turns inward to self destruction. When you become aware of the source of the cruelties inflicted upon you, the rage turns outwards toward those who tormented you. Closure only begins, and I emphasize the word begins, when the perpetrator(s) admit what they did and apologize. Intellectually, you will realize that they were victims too in some manner, but emotionally it will be hard to forgive. But you will try. If on the other hand, the perpetrator says things like, “That was all in the past. Look what I have done for you, quit whining,” closure is not possible. Your hostility will continue.

As with abused individuals, so too with abused peoples. And it will take more than one lifetime for an entire culture to overcome the burdens of the past when that culture becomes self-aware. There is the older generation who suffered directly. The middle generation who felt degraded during their youth. Finally the young who have grown up in a society where their culture is now generally treated with respect, but hear the stories of their parents and grandparents. They cannot help but feel anger for what their ancestors went through and this colors their outlook toward the former oppressor. And should the former oppressor group continue to show little understanding and to make hostile, derogatory and self-serving comments, the negative attitude of the former abused culture will remain.

Quebec bashers, do you get it?

Alcibiades on the Maher Arar. Thread this what you posted,
( More insults.
Is not calling someone a 'disgrace' and a 'loser' in violation of the posting standards of this place? Not to mention 'coward'.)
But you, you feel free to call someone a bigot simply because they disagree with you, Alcibiades,
you’re a whiner,crier,and a dip-sh!t to boot.

Grumpy, you may not be bigoted, but bigotry and ignorance are what is usually behind Quebec bashing. If not, if people understood why Quebec acts the way it does they would be more tolerant and understanding. I should add that bigoty also takes a long time to dissappear. Remember that Ontario used to be controlled by the Orange Lodge and that anti-Catholic, Anti-French sentiment gets passed down - albeit in more diluted form from generation to generation. It will take a couiple more generations to erradicate it.

Woody, come on, be realistic. You know as well as I that Anti_french bigotry (as well as anti-FN) is an unfortunate part of Canadian culture. I am also old enough to remember words like "DP", "Chink" and "Bohunk" thrown around. And the people saying these things meant it.

anarcho, you can go cry me a river to with your aery fairy tail about being bullied and abused, what a crock.

anarcho , I hate to disappoint you, but, both of my folks came from Quebec, along with a large contingent of sons and daughters, I can and do honestly say that never did I or my brothers or sisters ever experience here in BC what you refer to as Anti_french bigotry , never, not once, but I have seen the natives suffer from bigotry and the Canadian Japanese suffer from bigotry upon returning from the interment camps, Quebec, well it's like a spoil child, that’s all.

Quebec bashing? ... EDITED FOR RACIST CONTENT. TYEE EDITOR.

woody, I made a general comment about bigotry. Look again at what I posted; no one is named, no person is slandered - an attitude is described. Then look at what IAMC posted - to which my other remark was directed - there is a big difference. You're clever enough, you'll figure it out.

alive says:

Can you see their minds?

On the contrary, for anyone who has lived in Quebec - particularly Quebec outside of Montreal, the Gatineau and the Eastern Townships - it is pretty clear that most Quebecois do not understand English - any more than the residents of Calgary understand French. This is not a question of admitting anything - it is simply a fact and one that anyone familiar with Quebec culture outside of Montreal will confirm for you.

climber,

'The French lost the war!'

Can't you come up with something a little more original and relevant?

'Quebec is the 'turd' in the swimming pool!'

Have you ever lived in Quebec?

Actually the english also lost the war. Much of Canada's early english population were Loyalists who were on the losing side of the American Revolution but Canada treated them as if they not only won that war but as if they had conquered Upper Canada too.

As for Canada being in a snit after Quebec leaves and refusing to have anything to do with them? Not a chance. Too many links between Quebec and eastern Canada. Trade might actually increase since there won't be any inter-provincial trade barriers.

If Canada loses Quebec it will be a bigger crisis for Canada than it will be for Quebec. That province has a vibrant and distinct culture: music, drams, the arts, cinema and Television.

Which is, given what I see on TV lately, a hell of a lot more than what the rest of the country does.

Quebec will not only succeed on its own, it will thrive. I hope it never happens because what's left of Canada wouldn't be much more than a pathetic little magic republic of murdockville.

Not true G, we'll all turn into 25 million sovereign individuals. With our own individual economies tailored to our individual needs :-)

Alcibiades:
My personal experiences stem from trying to conduct business in official institutions that are government sponsored, and finding clerks unwilling to speak english.
Anywhere else in Canada such behaviour would be an offence, but in Quebec it is only good for a chuckle.
Imagine having to bring a translator with me to a government office?

I happen to know a number of Quebecois people who moved to western Canada as unilingual French speakers.

I guess maybe you can imagine they had some pretty interesting times at government offices too - try getting a driver's license in Duncan when you can only speak French. That's offensive too. Canada has two official languages - there are inexcusable situations on both sides of the coin. Hardly a reason to condemn a whole people. Which is exactly what you wrote.

I don't see too much anti-french 'bogotry' anymore...In fact (as I've said before) your garden variety anglo whitie male is now typically a maleable and socially passive product of forty years of unceasing liberal guilt. Anarcho's silly claims of seeing "white sheets" everywhere is as nonsensical as Hedy Fry's claims to seeing burning crosses. Popular Anti-FN sentiment is without a doubt still with us in French Canadian culture, but I just don't see it in virulent form anymore among my generation of anglo whitie. Having said that, their are ongoing systemic problems that need our full attention.

The real racism problem in a multicultural society today is among the minority races, as anyone who's spent any time on a large urban campus in the last 10 years can tell you.

On a tangential note, more on the West's slow ethical and cultural suicide in the face of radical Islam:

German opera house cancels provocative Mohammed staging
"Berlin's Deutsche Oper has removed the provocative staging of a Mozart opera from its schedule for fear of enraging Muslims, the opera house said in a statement. One of three opera houses in the German capital, it cancelled director Hans Neuenfels's production of "Idomeneo", a 1781 drama set in ancient Crete, because authorities warned it could present n "incalculable security risk"."
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/25/060925192943.tqohhg8j.html

The stupidity and appeasing in the posts has already signed Canada's death warrant. We are doomed! quebec has been on the gravey train much too long and now wants all of the cake.

As for the two language policy a great waste of time and money. sure in countires like Switzerland and Belgium, where size compells multi lingual cohabitation, Canada is much too large. The money spent on B & B in the paste 30 odd years would have been better spent on sending grade 12 kids on trains across this great land, instead in great Canadian fashion, it was spent on mindless legislation, overseen by a pondereous bureaucracy!

This country is splitting up for 21st century reasons not 18th century ones.

Oh by the way, the support for the revolted American in 1776 was about 33%, who terrorised the other 67% with house burnings, rape, and murder to support George Washington. The loyalist were refugees, who lost everything!

Hey sounds like Iraq?, Afghanistan?

Gaulois:

Sorry, forgot to mention our own family is in the French Immersion(FI) program. Most within this progam have Non - francophone roots. Those that do are disproportionally uber -Gallic ie sharp elbows and rahter know -it- all arrogant. Perhaps a localized anomaly. Regardless, FI provides another more relevant perspective in the bigger picture .

Re: my dilution of Quebec via Non francophone immigration comment ...I refer to a natural inevitability, versus something actively pursued and created via Gov't policy. The demographic shifts in Canada in the last 10-20 years are quite amazing. Check any school class in an urban setting. Quebec may simply be a last-gasp hold-out.

Sooner or later a socio-political equilibrium shift will occur that this "distinct society" is not sustainable nor tolerated. Perhaps one more Quebec demand over the limit will start the "enough is enough" end.

Practically speaking, a world map 5 years old is out of date. Countries and borders change. I guess no Canadian politician wants to be branded as the author of a NEW Canada without Quebec. If they don't want to stay, let them go, otherwise its a form of quasi-kidnapping..correct?

End the bribery, Call the bluff.

This ends up a childish game many Canadians both tire of and resent the bribery to maintian this facade. Perhaps the NON Quebec Canada should get a chance to vote like " SURVIVOR" as to whether or not they want Quebec in Confederation...or else re-negotiate the terms.

As I said earlier...one cannot have two countries within one....it simply creates and fosters a legacy of corrupt Federal Gov'ts who try to claim they are keeping the country of Canada intact from sea to shining sea.

Rather than the clean corruption of throwing money at Quebec with more up front bribery, it then became a far less sanitized corruption that took down the Paul Martin Federal Gov't...(but not that that was a bad thing).

However, are we on the start of a truly slimy slippery slope to maintain Confederation ?

How about a little evidence of that Quebec 'gravy' train Grumpy? Quebec's economy will do just fine on its own - if we're ever unlucky enough to get to that point.

to Alci:
Not so sure what you refer to, but for YOUR convenience i will paste the entire post here, and you tell me where i condemn the entire province of Quebec, OK?

"Worldwide it seem that nations split up into ethnic groups.
It is hard to keep tally on all the new nations that spring up, each one claiming it was unable to exist properly within the nation it seperated from.
Ask yourself if that is a good thing?
To me it means that nobody wants to try to co-operate, or perhaps that the people who initiate these seperations see an opportunity to become big frogs in a small pond?
No, that was not an ethnical slur!
People in Vancouver have learned that Multiculture can be rewarding!
Yes it means dropping some of our outdated concepts, but the rewards are many.
I agree that Canada has gone too far by insisting that we shall be bilingual, particularily when people in Quebec refuse to admit they understand english, just to be vengeful.
Such are the problems with large countries, in other places they have similar problems with dialects.
Strictly on a "me first" basis we could probably do well by advocating BC as a nation of its own; but eventually we might wind up with cross-border problems as we now face with the USA?
Have you travelled abroad and found borders every few hours? new rules and denominaions etc.?
It is more than annoying and really serves nobody well."

And by the way my experience was in St.Hubert, a part of Montreal, not exactly like Duncan BC.

maestro:

yes, absolutely we are. With the conformers thinking they can gain votes in PQ, the Quebec Libs under (formerly conservative) Charet will have to continue to hop about hat in hand - with the other one out to take whatever falls from the conformers pockets.

The real fear must come with the push to make 'senators' elected, without adjusting the numbers of them. Since there are so many from PQ & Ontario, the rest of 'the canada' will see their ability to wrest anything from the center of power in Ottawa diminish...

There is a realy good book written by Reed Scowen called "TIME TO SAY GOODBYE"and it puts forward the case for getting Quebec out of Canada.I'm not going to precis it but suggest that you read it because it makes a lot of sence.I
have been in Canada for 38yrs and in that time have only met a handfull of people from Quebec all of whom were very nice people who rolled thier eyes on the topic of seperation.I have travelled extensively in France and individually found that the French too are very nice.But here's the rub,both as a groups are a royal pain in the ars.The French in Europe still have a burr up thier ars because the Germans overrun them in just 2 days and blame everybody else except themselves for it.The more you give to Quebec the more they want,frankly it's time to stop.I read a government study back in the 80's that said that for every $1 BC put in the government pot we got back 75c and Quebec took $1.50.I don't know what it is now ,but I bet they still get the lions share.Sure lots of people in this country and all over the world speak more than one language,but they do it because they want to, not because its forced down thier throats.Having everything written in two languages is costing us a small fortune and achievs absolutely nothing.
I said this before on other threads but untill we do something about this entrenched political party sytem we will never get rid of this problem.The other alternative is that we get a leader with guts who can stand up and be counted and the chances of that is slim to none.
Multiculturalism is the biggest bunch of hyprocrisy I have every seen.We all have to be multicultural,but Quebec doesn't?Give me a break.

Rafe is right. Ignatieff's musings might cause much rancous debate. For English Canada it would be another visit to the dentist; (to paraphrase Parizeau). And, as Lysiane Gagnon wrote in the Globe, it wouldn't satisfy the hard nationalists.

Incidentally, English speakers comprise 1 million of Quebec's 6 million, making the French Candians in Quebec around 15% of Canada. What Quebec nearly obtained in Meech was a guarentee of 25% seats in the Commons, which would stick in the craw of an increasing population in Western Canada and Ontario.

Without Quebec frequently receiving a hugely disproportionately high proportion of Federal funds for cultural programmes, including (check the stats on their web sites) film & tv and performing arts, English Canada's artists and producers could produce more and better product. Same applies to many business programmes.

Were Charest to sign the constitution he would loose the trump card to use for more, and more from Ottawa. It's just a game of politics that has served Quebec well, except that it lives in the negative myth of being badly treated. It will take a long time for Quebec to settle, the same as it took a long time for England to get over the (French) Norman Conquest.

woody., "anarcho, you can go cry me a river to with your aery fairy tail about being bullied and abused, what a crock."

ie don't confuse my mind with facts. And an absolute refusal to understand and learn from history.

Nightgloom, "Anarcho's silly claims of seeing "white sheets" everywhere " Straw man argument - I never said "everywhere". It is just when the questions of Quebec and FN comes up the bigoted minority crawls out of the woodwork, as we have seen so well here.

Alcibiades said

Whats a unilingual ? The birth of a 3rd official language.

I just don't see too much of the "white sheet" crowd anymore. Are you sure they're not just a bogeyman to make sure we vote pink (or at least Liberal)?

nightbloom, I don't know where you hang your hat, but my experience around my neck of the woods (far from college campuses) is that anti-FN is still very much the norm. Almost as bad as it was on the prairies.

Anecdotal evidence is whatever I say it is so I'll avoid that and just say the BC Libs found a pretty receptive crowd when they were bashing natives in the run-up to their referendum. And the results of the referendum pretty much confirm that the majority of non-natives don't want the natives to have any special rights.

I can answer that for you woody - it means people who speak only one language. In Canada there are folks who only speak French and folks who only speak English. Not such a surprise really.

Remember what Premier Bourassa said to his official biographer, Jean Francois Lisee, when asked why not independance, "four billion dollars". Bourassa was, of course, referring to equalization payments from the rest of Canada. It's now up to $5,539,000,000. That's 15 million and 175,342 dollars per day, 365 days per year. Pays for lots of lavish social programmes plus much else including a plethora of subsidies to businesses. In comparison BC receives 1.2 million per day. Makes one wonder who's poorest.

(http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html)

Let's try to add a bit of perspective on this. We just had two weeks ago a closed door meeting on continental deep integration with the United States in Banff. Attending this meeting were dubious folks like:
Sec. Donald R. Rumsfeld Secretary of Defense, US Department of Defense
Dr. James Schlesinger Former Sec. Of Energy & Defense
Mr. William Schneider President, International Planning Services
Sec. Clay Sell Deputy Secretary of Energy, US Dept. of Energy
Mr. Thomas d’Aquino Canadian Council of Chief Executives
Hon. Stockwell Day Minister of Public Safety, Government of Canada

The list goes on with people having vested interests in oil, water, other natural resources, defense, etc..
One would think this deserves some news coverage. But guess what???

Iggy went on about Quebec nationalism as the next thing. Jan Wong at teh Globe went on bashing Quebec on bill 101. Harper kept buying vote in Quebec. CanWest told us about Peter Mackay latest dating with Condoleeza Rice. Rafe got nostalgic over good old Quebec bashing and the Tyee missed that story. Fortunately vivelecanada.ca did not and neither did they bash Quebec!

It should be pretty clear by now that when you buy a political bunch of groupies whether libs or conservatives to serve your interest (i.e. get reelected), that rot emerges sooner or later, whether in Quebec or anywhere else as a matter of fact. Look at your own Libs. So don't hyperventilate when the rot hits you back. And don't buy into ethnic undertones.

Back to the main comment, when some vested interests buy the ones that are supposed to represent us, you can be assured that rot will come about. Medias should do a better job of being on the lookout and not fall back in the old ethnic group bashing crap that let the sinister characters get away with their misdeeds. I can assure you that FN people and francos have tremendous experience in this area and they know the true meaning of being sovereign and how its gets sold off. I will be "arrogant" for the few that asked for it and suggest that Canadians need to learn from these groups about what Canadian sovereignty actually means. Because it is drifting away and you would rather get sidetracked by Quebec bashing. Been there, done that and gotten that T-shirt.

I will be sorry to see Quebec separates if it does ever happen (I spent more than half of my life in fact in Western Canada and it may affect my reasoning after all). But it is really not the end of the world if it does happen as some people really want you to believe. They in fact maintain themselves in power that way. And that is plain wrong.

It's also worth remembering that the Official intergovernmental policy towards Canada of the Quebec Liberals under Bourassa was called the, "couteau a la gourge" policy. Translated, 'a knife at the throat'. This policy was formulated by Bourassa's adviser Leon Dion, father to Stephan Dion.

And, Bob Rae's campaign is being run by his brother John Rae who also ran the "NO" campaign in '95, from Power Corporation (publishing, financial services, insurance, oil, cement) offices in Montreal, and Chretien's campaign. He is a V.P. and Board member at Power Corp. which is run by the Desmarais family which is related to Jean Chretien by marriage and which Paul Martin used to work for.

I grew up in Quebec, voted in the first referendum.

Separation, or soveriegnty association is a political industry, keeping politicians employed/elected.

When push comes to shove, I doubt that they will ever separate. Many Quebecers vacation in Old Orchard Beach, retire in Florida, and watch Wheel of Fortune (Roue de Fortune).

If they go, so what, they will be swallowed up by the U.S. Many in western Canada (re: Albertan and perhaps BC) would like to do the same.

Quebec's wants interms of jurisdiction are no different than other provinces, the language of negotiation is only different.

If they do go, what will happen to the Cdn military, mass resignations? Will francophone quebecers need a work visa to work in Banff or Jasper?

Most Quebecers, and residents in other provinces just want mutual respect.

While I moved out west in 1989, I am still a Habs fan!

Yes ..ditto...still a HABS fan...especially loved the run in '71.

However,...Ken Dryden...Federale Liberal ??? Uggghh ....peckerhead.

I don't personally have a huge problem with Quebec's roots as people from a separate founding nation acknowledged and included in Canadian Confederation.

I just have a major problem with how the Politicians have played it out and taken advantage of it and thus play many of the rest of us Canadians for fools and suckers.

Vividly recall family friend's mom as a YVR Traffic Controller and how they wore bumper stickers with a " Beaver strangling a Frog ".

We began to see the two official languages on ever Federal sign every Federal building...literally on every consumer product.

Do ya'll notice our VIDEO rentals...they now have it in both French and English...till just recently it was only English,...some bored bureaucrats enforcing another stupid regulation??

Unless mistaken I seem to recall that there are approx 30-40,000 people in BC that claim French is their native tongue,..but I'll bet they also speak English.

Regardless, the point is the handling of this issue at the political level has been a joke and a disaster, with untold Billions $$$$ wasted on this bogus Trans -Canada from -sea -to- shining sea " bilingualism principle " that could instead have been directed into far more worthy societal investments.

Unfortunately it's become a monster, and how it will morph and evolve in the future with the latest so - called political crisis is anybody's guess, but , as always , it won't be in the countries overall best interests.

All the Feds do is create another perpetual vote- buying culture of entitlement and dependency...another political version of the In - Site clinics.

What is Québécois" culture that is continually mentioned,, no one has described , nor offered a suggestion of what this so called Culture can be , that is no one until now, maestro stated it quite clearly
All the Feds do is create another perpetual vote- buying culture of entitlement and dependency...another political version of the In - Site clinics.

Having just received the TYEE.., I am sorry to jump in at this late moment in time...*...,

Having said that though , I would like to make certain reflections on what I`ve heard ...

My take on this discussion and especially Rafe`s observations and point of view.., which clearly sometimes stretches the very meaning of what it might mean to not really understand the country you belong to*-
Hence feeling that I would like to share with you certain observations and especially questions that would help all of us better understand the very foundation of how we`ve come to be ..- in our long historical road travelled - what we are today..

Indeed CANADA * it`s very road travelled , so poorly understood , by it`s past , present and future inhabitants...- to the point of creating the kind of confusion that is clearly demonstrated in these posts *...

Let`s start with the first very basic question of ... Can anyone tell me the origins of how we`ve come to be named
BRITISH COLUMBIA in this province?

I`ll await with great interest the answer from the majority to those who posted here and will engage the discussions following that period of time*..,

Any takers... Rafe? , Anyone ?

Of course the question would seem like
BC 101 , upon first reflection but I quarantee you that the answers will surprise most of you*

For indeed , the puzzle and the pieces that make up the CANADA puzzle have yet to be pieced in one frame and canvas to hold all of it`s very diverse historical realities..

I like to tell certain audiences that I sometimes speak to that we live in the land of the many CANADA`s .. and this province - not unlike any other- has but a skewed historical understanding of the very province they originate from and inhabitat , let alone having any `common ground understanding of the CANADA as a whole.., `of which they are but one part thereof and therein*..

VILLAGE *..

I think Freebear has said it best: Quebecois just want respect.

But how is respect accorded on a large scale. If anglophone culture is the "voice of Canada" as seems to be the case 99% of the time, that is not respectful of the role that francophones and others play. Thus the need for promoting non-anglophone cultures in Canada (esp Quebec)... multiculturalism is something that must be maintained. I myself am a second generation Canadien Manque... something I would place the blame of sorely on the lack of cultural institutions that existed when my parents were growing up.

There was a nasty, sneering post from one commenter directed at me earlier... hmm... not only did I explictly state in my earlier post that First Nations cultures should be supported, I speak little bits of Coast Salish and Nuu'chah'nulth and I plan on learning more of both in the future (I'm a student of anthropology, hence my fascination with culture, which I percieve a little differently than "society" as many here have conflated it)... On subject, I made my point earlier that supporting francophone (Quebecois, Metis, Francomanitoban, Acadien and others...) cultures throughout Canada should also be accompanied by supporting First Nations cultures and on a yet smaller scale, supporting smaller ethnic groups. I place priority on francophones because they have the largest population, though First Nations groups are perhaps more deserving of institutional support because of the all the destruction that has been done during the last few centuries.

ok village:

"British" comes from the amalgam of Hudson's Bay Company and the 'British' East India Company whom had been doing al lot of logging and coaling along the west coast of North America. They had the 'rights' to much of the northern half of the continent.

"Columbia" comes from the Columbia River basin, which was once thought to come out at New Westminster (since much of the interior of the territory was un-explored).

With the land grab going on from the 13+ American colonies (they had another 6-8 'states' by then - this is all from memory) there was a push on to claim as much territory on the west coast as possible. Spain had legitimate claim to California Territory (though little more than that) so it was from the Colonial Office in London that the decision to have the joint statement of claim over "British Columbia" as being that territory from the Western Cordillera to the mouth of the Columbia River Basin enclosing all territory north to the borders expressed by Russian Treaty.

Essentially it was an idea, expressed in words and filed with France, England, Russia, Italy, the US (thru French diplomats), Spain and other leading, mostly european, merchant houses.

280 years ago, this was how things were done.

If your intent here village is to show that nations, provinces, etc first start as an idea, then go on to take on more of a national spirit, fine.

If it is to 'show-up' BC commentators, in that your view is somehow different or better, then take it elsewhere.

For the comment that 'quebec lost the war', nope. Quebec militia were only partially involved in the first battle of the plains of Abraham, where the French lost. The militia re-organized and trumped the British regulars (more like frozen scare-crows) in the 'second' battle of the plains of Abraham. It was only the arrival of the supply ship from England first (since the blockade of France was still somewhat successful and Martinique and Guadalupe were far more valuable than Canada in the 18th Century, so this was where the French supply ships and troops were sent) that allowed the British to 'claim' a victory. Ever since there has been antipathy towards 'les anglos' from the submerged populace. In modern times it has become more pronounced, even on the licence plates "Je Me Souviens" (I Remember). For many families that lost 200 years of colonial history in those battles they are more than keen for a 'best 2 out of 3'.

More on the decline of Enlightenment values in the West. I still find it ironic that the only bona fide institution with the balls and backbone to stand up for Enlightenment principles is the archetypal "anti-Enlightenment" (not really) institution itself: the Roman Catholic Church...

Opera withdrawn over Islamist threat
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/8e25081c-4d7b-11db-8704-0000779e2340.html

Money Quote:

Gardensnake said, "I'm a student of anthropology, hence my fascination with culture, which I percieve a little differently than "society" as many here have conflated it)... On subject, I made my point earlier that supporting francophone (Quebecois, Metis, Francomanitoban, Acadien and others...) cultures throughout Canada should also be accompanied by supporting First Nations cultures and on a yet smaller scale, supporting smaller ethnic groups. I place priority on francophones because they have the largest population, though First Nations groups are perhaps more deserving of institutional support because of the all the destruction that has been done during the last few centuries."

Right on! My background is sociology and anthropology. Nice to meet someone who knows something about the subject instead of the usual "science be damned, I want to believe my self-serving mythology."

Gaulois, thanks for the vivelecanada.ca info. Even when the articles are rehashes (though I do like the reference to Alice) the blogs seem to bring out some real news. Thanks again.

To Murdock , ( thanks for that response ).

Now , could you explain to me why Vancouver exist in two places at the same time along the west coast ?
And the fact that one of those Vancouver`s is older then the other?
And without looking into a historical source , would you be able to tell me which of the two is the earliest settlement ?

nightbloom
At least I'll give you this: The Church is to be applauded for speaking our against the Bush reach around about torture...one can only wish the Christianists would also be as critical of the moral disintegration of the United States government - or at least a good part of it. One can now say, without fearing to exaggerate, that the USA is now the co-equal of the Stalinist USSR.

I always thought they were both central control corporate states and not real democracies anyway and now Bush is bending over backwards to make the case for me.

What a record the man has. Anyone who suggests that Quebec would be absorbed by America before the rump provinces like Alberta and BC doesn't know much about Quebec, in my view.

As far as my intent goes Murdock . It is really one of being a catalyst and source of questioning of demonstrating the little we really do know of our CANADA. * ( And indeed it is also my intention to demonstrate that in our very own backyard we are in a desperate need to fully understand how we`ve come to be who we are... as BRITISH COLUMBIANS ..)

You see , I`ve found that we suffer from much ignorance in this country about our beginnings and we really need to ask ourselves questions such as those I raise here.. and if you care to
take that journey with me , I will humbly share with you what I`ve discovered once I realised how little I knew of the province I resided in ... only to find that it was really elsewhere`s that I would find the real answers to the origins of Canada..., and not in the ordinary sources that was available in the traditional approach to getting at the roots of a country such as this one is...

CANADA... * now that`s another fascinating word..., needing also to be explored - like how we pronounce it - it both of our `official languages `and then some ! .., indeed you can start by asking yourself how you would pronounce the letter A in both of Canada`s official languages and then apply that reflection to our common usage to this very day ...*

You see , it`s like the puzzle of the two VANCOUVER`s and the question of which of the two came first *... these will offer the clues to the answer we must all face..., when attempting to paint a picture of CANADA *... , for I believe you would agree .., that for most of the time.., and this applies for most of the inhabitants of Canada also.., we have a long way to go to explain away our history .. ie .. OUR ROAD TRAVELLED..*

This is my intent , Murdock . To make explorers and discovers our of all of us. For we have such a rich and deep history , that needs now to be approached with an honesty and YES.. AN INTENTION THAT IS HONORABLE... ( so I thank you for the question and especially thank you for not presuming you knew what my intentions were.. and instead asking ...) so thanks again and I await your response..

Sorry for taking so long to respond.., for I`ve just returned from a meeting that lasted from around 6pm to this midnight hour *..

P.S. I will understand , if you have already gone to bed..or what have you and will look into your response tomorrow..

And as one commentator once said in a most wonderfull film : Good night and Good luck !

But if you are still there and by some great co-incidence you are at your computer I will be here for a little while before I go off to bed *.

Sorry for the spelling errors.. I`ve just realised now that I needed to pay better attention re: my spelling !

Long day! Late night ! Very little sleep in the past few days due to heavy load placed on my contractual commitments *

G west stated Anyone who suggests that Quebec would be absorbed by America before the rump provinces like Alberta and BC doesn't know much about Quebec, in my view.

In supporting your view I would also add that these same people you describe above G West , know very little about CANADA nor it`s origins and roots..,
( having some 1534 to 1867 gaps to fill ), if they were to truly grasp the roots / genesis of origin itself.. when it comes to a vast country such as ours..

Indeed we all need to take the journey to recapture our long long lost and distant collective memory*.., for as one great thinker lady said one day..,a culture that`s forgotten that it`s forgotten completely let alone forgotten altogether is indeed doomed to oblivion and collapse.

Jane Jacobs , I believe her name was.., overheard an interview with her on the CBC.., which was very enlightening * ..

[B]VILLAGE.

The politicization of the Protestant/Evangelical sects relative to the Roman Catholic Church is as relavant today as it was in the 1930's. Notwithstanding some blatant moral failures, the historical record in the modern era demonstrates that the RC Church tends to be more resistant (institutionally and doctrinally) to overt politicization in times of overreaching or totalitarian temporal (political) authority. This was certainly the case in Nazi Germany and Stalinist Eastern Europe. Not to pat ourselves on the back excessively, but there's something to be said for Catholic 'transcendentalism' (to borrow Fr. Andrew Greeley's phrase - or aloofness) in politics. I find it alarming how evangelicals in the States confuse Dubya's "Word" with the Word of God as a matter of course now.

In an era when it's socially acceptable to degrade, mock and insult all things Catholic, it's eddifying to see Roman Catholic Bishops line up on Capitol Hill with conscientious military leaders and intelligence experts to publicly and officially oppose a Bill which would empower the president with the right to seize anyone, detain him or her without charges indefinitely and torture them in secret. But look who is totally M.I.A.: the mainline Protestant/evangelical churches, the invertebrate university Professoriat...Again, the irony of seeing the RC Church stand up for fundamental Enlightenment principles is too rich to pass over. They're really the only institution which seems to still have a corporate memory of the Enlightenment, and which has internalized its values in spite of itself.

Good luck with the introspective journey village.

I went thru much of it in my teens to 'understand' the history of BC.

rather than focus on the lower mainland, more answers can be found in places like Barkerville or northern Vancouver Island, the primary sources are still present. They have not been built over 3 or 4 times nor have the trails been trod into dust by millions of travellers yet.

your hope of bringing more folks with you on the journey into BC history is going to get little or no popular response. I think this is due to North Americans continuous desire to see where they are going with no desire to understand that where they have been will help them to understand where they are going...

My personal experience on trying to understand the history of BC.., came about quite by accident as I travel up and down the Pacific West Coast quite often, and it is on one of these travelling experiences or during the aggregate experience itself of continuously driving - first down the Interstate 5 , then following the trails that led down some fascinating discoveries..- ( one of these being fort Clapsop )....

What I`m getting at is that the Columbia Department of the Hudson Bay Company was indeed as you described it as per it`s boundaries ( or close enough ) .., taking in what would be in modern terms.. the territories encompased by parts of California so I`m told , Oregon, Washington State, The now named province of British Columbia - itself clearly all that eventualy remained of that large Department - , and also took in the States of Montana and Idaho ... * ,

What is most interesting about this Hudson Bay ... - Columbia Deparment - is where for a significant period of time , it`s settlement and headquarters were situated..., ie.. , from say..,
1825 to 1846 ..., or thereabouts..,

(Thus bringing up my question of the two Vancouver`s and which of the two settlements came first .. HISTORICALLY AND FACTUALLY SPEAKING )... ,

It isn`t the lower mainland that I`m focusing on Murdock , but rather the West Coast of what we now call - United States of America and of course our very own - British Coumbia ( circa 2006 ) West Coast )..

What is to be Explored and Discovered within that historically well documented COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT , holds perhaps the key ..., to the big picture .., which would make the completion of the CANADA PUZZLE.. , simplier .*

And British Columbia`s PUZZLE ,riddle and enigma also.

Thanks for the history lessons (....no really, very interesting ).

Roots are important, the future is often very rooted in the past. If not, tell that to Yugoslavia when Tito no longer kept the Serbs and Croats at bay from each other....ancient rivalries that did not go away.

The New World inevitably lured many from there lives of squalor and desperation elsewhere. Often it was the lure of the quick buck..ie Gold Rushes etc. Furs. timber etc...hewers of wood, drawers of water. The New World immigrants gave up on their low probability pipe dreams and ultimately settled in the new world..., establishing more even deeper roots and often started with an agri-economy via homesteading, crown grants etc. aka these were the FRONTIER PIONEERING days.

Like anything else, a critical mass occurs that a LACK of law and order results in a a NEED for law and order. Then Gov'ts begin to form,....the Magna Carta etc. gets dusted off, and the old country/s of origin provide the main template to create a more structured society aka a "civilized" civilization.

I suppose that at the time, given most of this vast unsettled and sparsely populated continent called North America was in the midst of establishing 3 countries, and the most mutually convenient boundaries between two given countries was established ie Can - USA = 49th parallel.

Sea to shining sea sounded nice, but was practical, given the pre - railroad eras heavy dependence of ships.

Perhaps the U.S. Sewards folly ie the purchase of Alaska from Russia was the first major realization of future value vs nuisance value.

Now US and Mexico had their " Alamo-ish " guns drawn pissing -matches,....but the U.S. also has the Spanish facet to its founding nation ledger. I always found it interesting that Canada didn't absorb the French.....or why the US didn't create a parallel Mexi-Quebec, given the similar Catholic roots both Mexico and Quebec share...give or take the Melting pot theory of nation building. Also recall the Brit-WASP roots of both US and Canada.

Just some thoughts and musings on roots and history.

Maestro wrote, "I always found it interesting that Canada didn't absorb the French.....or why the US didn't create a parallel Mexi-Quebec, given the similar Catholic roots both Mexico and Quebec share."

I think the reason has to do with population numbers. Francophones were the majority in what became Canada until about 1840. Thereafter, and until this very day, they remain a large and significant minority. The ex-Mexican territories that the US conquered were sparsely populated to begin with and the Americans probably outnumbered the Hispanics 20 to 1 after being absorbed into the Union.

Anarcho

Good points:

Kinda reverts back to my enough "critical mass" premise .....I guess Quebec had enough population to create a viable Gov't when compared to other territories of the day in similar situation.

The rest of Canada was likely in a hurry to unite, and avoid American absorption ,...and Quebec as a 4th North American country was very possible.

I presume the lingering fear was that Quebec wouldn't become a 4th Country, but choose a permanent alliance with either of the two new North American countries formulating ie either join the U.S OR Canada.

I guess the US wasn't interested at the time or didn't sweeten the pot as much. The U.S. had several smaller states to try and keep together....and many more internal issues)

( Won't muse if Mexico had put in a good or better bid for Quebec ...Enchiladas and Pinata's during Carnaval ??? )

The rest is history.

Thanks for the input Maestro .., very appreciated !

I would like to make some comments on some of your reflections, perhaps by asking more questions that need to be asked.

For instance the very roots of Canada itself. and the source or well- if you will of it`s potential, dream and existence.

From my research and read on the subject matter and especially from my explorations and discoveries on the ... or better yet IN THE FIELD ... gave me certain indication and clues to the missing pieces of our puzzle..

Hence the dream of the `old `world vis a vis the NEW.. and the consequent efforts that resulted in many kings ( and queens dreams I might add ..) as to expanding their respective EMPIRES*

What I find interesting is asking the question of what became of two specific Kings dreams..., ie.. the KING OF ENGLAND`S dreams and the KING OF FRANCE`s dreams as it related to both the `NEW WORLD`.. and their respective GEOPOLITICAL POSITIONING .. in the HUMAN SETTLEMENTS RACE for TERRITORIAL OCCUPATION AND DOMINANCE..

Thus let me ask this question to you Maestro.., : what became of the English King`s dream in context of HUMAN SETTLEMENT establishements in the so called `new world`.. ( a consequence I might add that was to impact very deeply in the world , not only of that period but up to this very day*..,

The question I would ask is : what am I really asking when I pose the question above ..

The next question to ponder in parralel is to ask ourselves what became of the SETTLERS and respective SETTLEMENTS ... that was to be .. in fulfilling the respective KING`S efforts in this `new world`?

The clues and pieces that fills the canvas of that particular PUZZLE.., will indeed put all of us on the path of exploration and discovery * ..

By the way Maestro... WOODY`S comments made just before I began my DIALOGUE on this site is one of the clues and pieces of the puzzle that I refer to...,

For in asking the question he asks..
he clearly puts the challenge in the contextual nature of this search and exploration .*

( and I am sure he asks the question for many CANADIANS that also would like to know the answer to that one...)

THE QUESTIONS THAT I ASK.., will eventualy not only answer WOODY`S question , but will offer up a window of exploration and discovery so that we can all , with clarity , arrive at not only an understanding of the very ROOTS of CANADA but , will offer up also a
languaging approach.., ( story telling ) by any other word..,

We simply need to get our act together and be able collectively to tell our story*.. with the confidence of : a sense of place , a sense of belonging and a sense of identity itself.. , and I believe truly and honorable that this kind of exploration and discovery will provide the ....
solution .., to the riddle , to the puzzle and enigma of our beginnings *

anarcho`s : [/B] I think the reason has to do with population numbers. Francophones were the majority in what became Canada until about 1840. Thereafter, and until this very day, they remain a large and significant minority. The ex-Mexican territories that the US conquered were sparsely populated to begin with and the Americans probably outnumbered the Hispanics 20 to 1 after being absorbed into the Union.[B] is also one of the best indicator and piece of the puzzle to my questions above *..

and Maetro ... your response to Anarcho`s comments leads me to say this..:

firstly that the settlers in so called NEW FRANCE .., were actually coming to CANADA.. for indeed Cartier`s mapping of this `unexplored` territory , led every traveller that followed .. to think in their minds that they were coming to a land called CANADA *.. , and this is a very important point .. when I take in your thoughts ..( Maestro) as to critical mass issues «»*

As to your other comment..re: the rest of Canada..,in the period I`m thinking of.. there was no rest of canada .

These settlers.. and this `new france`, settlement, though envisioned as `new france` by the KING OF FRANCE.. actually -for the settlers - became a new world and settlement ( potentialy ) of freedom for most of them and this they called CANADA..* Especially for those who escaped the rules and regulations and emerging governments that you so brilliantly described in speaking of how ..., things were done in those days.

( Much like what happened to the other king`s dream south of us and how those settlers chose to give themselves a new world and freedom * ) ..,from the NEW ENGLAND dream . There appeared in this continent a new way of thinking for settlers.., and for the CANADA of old.., the real freedom was found .., in the forest and rivers...,

ie., the fur trade offered up a way to earn a living , and at the same time.. explore the land and discover the freedom .., of being alive , at one with nature*.. This attachement to the land.., gradually created a people who saw in this CANADA hope and potential and gradually were named LES HABITANTS.. or in hockey terms.. the residual collective memory in CANADA pays homage to these earlier settlers by referring to the MONTREAL CANADIENS* as the HABS..*..,

Indeed there is direct correlation between these two terms..,

As to the Courreurs the bois.. and Voyageurs.., indeed.., the song..
LE CANADIEN ERRANT will perhaps better then anything I can say ,explain away the feeling , history and existence of these adventurers *

Which bring me back to my earlier question of.. : which of the two VANCOUVER`s came first? , and how does this relate to the story of the fur trade in this continent ?

For that matter also.., how British was THE COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT at the time of the fur trade ?

Quebec may be best described as an interesting anomaly in the overall formula for the creation of countires and nations

I think the lessons of the old Roman Empire began to strike much of the western world. Man's pre Star -Trek days made the lure of explorations at any and all cost overwhelming ie freee land with potential riches....who could refuse or resist ?

Moot point regarding "the rest of Canada",....effectively its like stake a claim and get a piece of the action, before its too late.

Savvy people realized some form of government or governing body was necessary at some critical point specific to the given PRE-country, history has shown that.

In this quest, the "original natives group" in the given land get trampled on. This can be the quasi-First Nations in the given land(ie East Indians in British Empire India)...or the new waves of immigrants who slowly see they are treated like the quasi- First Nations,...quais -slaves to feed the Imperialistic motherland . The ties that bind to the Motherland get weaned more and more after each New World generation is created...

The Americans had enough of feeding the British Empire , and decided to "separate".

That's its own critical mass, but a history has repeated itself on this "Old Romans Empire" flaw..the Natives get restless. The Empires reach is ultimately, inevitably ,greater than the true grasp.

Canada followed a similar path,to be its own country , not a colony, but the Francophone variables' irony is that in trying to create unity "on the one hand", it seeded potential DISunity "on the other hand ". The lesser of two devils at the time...

The old "a house divided"..."can't serve two masters"..etc. comes in to play later .

Without sounding too redneck....I think many agree that win the battle outright...one way or the other...there is no 1/2 way ...or ELSE you set the so-called short term solution on a path for future problems ,sooner or later.

That seems to be typically Canadian...a huge country larger in size than the US but with 1/10 the population of the US...that in itself implies a quasi- balkanized regionalized dysfunctional disconnect is either rooted or inevitable .

Well let me get back to the anlogy ..or narrative if you will of what became of the first settlers themselves.. be they of the British Settlement efforts in the so called `New World`.., or of the French Settlement efforts , once again in the so called `New World`..

What is clear in History is what became of the ENGLISH SETTLERS and SETTLEMENT attempts..., what is not as clear is what became of the FRENCH SETTLERS and SETTLEMENT..

Indeed Maestro , when you refer to the
`FRANCOPHONE variable..` I would like to bring up one important question ...

As the British were gradually transforming in the NEW ENGLAND SETTLEMENT dream*..., what was the significance of the NOUVELLE FRANCE SETTLEMENT transformation dream.., to the point that from all of these transformative experience..., we do know what came of the experience to the South of us..,

but what of up here , to the North.., what was the transformative vision and EXPERIENCE*... and what emerged from such an experience *..,?

And as to winning any battle.., what became critical in the so called `new world`.. was the winning of the survival battle itself*..,

Thus , as to `francophone variable `as you call it , I would rather offer up the CANADIEN* variable which gradually rooted itself in the land called CANADA.., as did the AMERICAN variable of the British Settlement and Settlers who arrived on the NEW ENGLAND shores...

( go visit the New England STATES and this historical reality will still be much in evidence )..,

what isn`t as in evidence is what became of the French Settler and Settlement itself.., for indeed as great a transformation was taking place to the North*..

Hence , what we seem to not be able to grasp ( In - HOUSE ).., is that our experience , in my humble opinion , was for the first 200 to 300 years .. .say from the time of the `DISCOVERY`..(1534)
to ... yes even to 1834 and adding a decade or more ... will surely point to the PIECES OF THE PUZZLE I hint at in my postings.

Indeed , if one could say that there was an EXPLOSION experience to the NEW ENGLAND DREAM...felt to the South of us , there was rather another kind of experience ... what I would call an IMPLOSION felt to the NOUVELLE FRANCE northern experience up here in our neck of the woods.. .

Indeed though in parallel time frame experiences , the outcome of the transformative nature of these attempts at SETTLEMENTS in the `NEW WORLD ` were by and far revolutionary . And I might add , liberating*

Except for the original inhabitants that suffered the consequence of the transformation* And this brings up another question of what became of those who found themselves as intermediaries to the CULTURES that found themselves , ( and at times lost themselves..) when faced , face to face , in front of each other*

These bridge builders are crucial to our understanding how this country was built*

hidden as they are , out of sight , out of mind and yet having provided for the very communications environment *.. so that things like the fur trade and industry could find themselve on a path of growth * ,

Innis ( harold ) did fascinating reflections on the evolution of civilisations and looked carefully at technology .., ( paper for the roman empire etc..,), there is much to be said about the fact that CANOES were indeed a revolutionary technology that permitted traveling up the `highways`of CANADA *

( I`m off to a meeting now.. but will gladly return to continue this DIALOG then .) ..

Meanwhile , I encourage each and everyone to explore and discover THE NARRATIVE*.. ( art of story telling )..,
telling our stories.

There seems to be a thoughtfull and intelligent source of contributors at this TYEE.., and would like to hear from those who have`nt yet responded to the call I made at the onset of my postings .

indeed.., people like G WEST, and gardensnake , woody , realisticman , etc..

I await your observations ,
thanks Maestro , and I await also your feedback to my most recent post..,

and as to Murdock who took the time to open up this discussion with me..
thanks again.

VILLAGE *

One, and perhaps the best reason that the French Canadiens did not and were not assimilated was because of the Quebec Act of 1774. The act was bought into being by Lord Dorchester (Guy Carleton, 1st Baron Dorchester),as Governor of Quebec. The Act gave the French guarantees that would preserve their language, religion and Civil Law (based on the Napoleonic Code and as opposed to the British system that (Upper) Canada adopted. The Act also helped gain the loyalty to the British of the French and thereby helped repel the Americans, who were infuriated by Catholicism. Many have written that this helped bring about the America Revolution.

As we know, to this day Quebec has it's language, culture, religion and it's Civil Law - the loyalty ebbs and flows.

Interesting observations, Village. Like you say the fur trade gave rise to the courier de bois, a person who was an anomaly in the sort of late Medieval society that was France at that time. The courier de bois was a "masterless man", a free individual who integrated much of the native ways into his life, the first "American."

In 1884 the main street across Montreal was named Boulevard Dorchester after Lord Dorchester (Guy Carleton), who went on to become a Governor General of Canada. This is the street where one finds the Queen Elizabeth Hotel and other landmarks. In 1987 under mayor Mr. Jean Dore the name was changed to boulevard Rene Levesque, except for the stretch inside the City of Westmount, where the predominantly English speaking municipality declined to re-write history and retained the historical nomenclatorial tribute.

Thanks for the expanded discussion

One can be guilty a times of often not seeing the simpler and the more obvious.

ie Have a look at a map of Canada or a globe. If one looks at Quebec, it is surrounded by so much water at its perimeter. Effectively, realistically, it is the eastern most province that is not an Island .

Given the route of choice via no other choice, ships were the only true means of transport and commerce. To the south is the crucial St Lawrence Seaway. STRATEGIC and CRUCIAL.

If Quebec became a separate country, or became a separate US state,(ie Canada would have no control at it eastern flank )...BC would be the only ocean accessible ice free port for Canada. (OH the musings on what might have been that if that was the actual case eh???)

Railways came much later.

In all likelihood, and as realisticman etc added more historical detail...consider Quebec as a French franchise with a potential critical mass to choose its future with many options. Perhaps envision Quebec much like Alaska,"Sewards Folly"...a huge un claimed of UNincorporated land mass up for bids or offers(ie give them an offer they couldn't refuse ? )

The Brits etc took Seward place(ie Seward negotiated the purchase of Alaska for the US) and thus formed a negotiating triangle..no different than free agent athlete in sports.

As a side bar..perhaps Seward was inspired by what happened to Quebec(US didn't try hard enough to get Quebec and kicking themselves?)...and felt that this OTHER HUGE NORTHERN Land Mass ie ALASKA could be acquired...maybe Canada was asleep at the switch in a tit for tat. It makes far more sense for Alaska to be part of Canada.

As realisticman stated and alluded to...tap into the primal passions and boogeymen..Quebec was Catholic...US was presented as anti- Catholic thus why would Quebec join an anti catholic country...and more importantly, if they didn't ally themselves with a stronger nation ie British and the newly forming Canada, perhaps the US would then invade and make it a fait accompli. US has been suspicious of Catholicism before and since Kennedy.

The Brits were Boston Tea partied by US ....so no love lost with the US...the enemy of my enemy is my (NEW)friend...

Think of US and Brits as optioning and assembling land no different than developers, but on a larger and grander scale, cutting all sorts of deals and dangling all sorts of carrots, the final assembly is ultimately called a COUNTRY . Simply basic human nature...

Simply create and play a triangle..its also called a wedge..divide and conquer..et al.

The tragic irony is that had it not been for the magnanamous and pragmatic Guy Carleton then perhaps US forces would have taken Quebec. Canada would have not come to be and the French Canadiens would today be speaking about as much French as their cousins in New Hampshire and Maine, etc.

When Lucien Bouchard spurted out that Canada is not a real country the smidgen of truth was that Canada always has been a bi-country due to Dorchester, and for this reason there are quite different social and political ideas in the French, and the diverse, English Canadas. Bouchard went on to embarass himself by taking a job at the Vieux Port de Montreal, a completely Federaly financed operation.

As others have said here Quebec has a dynamic cultural scene. Yes, well remember that the Vieux Port de Montreal uses our taxes to subsidise the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, as does the other Federal cash box, VIA rail (headquartered naturally in Montreal). Do these Federal monoliths help finance the Vancouver Symphony?

One of my hobbies is listening to the political rhetoric spewed on the Quebec issue, especially via the Quebec politicians.

Personally, its a great learning experience to understand how black = white and vice -versa (using a lot of gray as well ) in politics.

Don't I also seem to recall a couple of recent Quebec Premiers' had American wives,and Bourassa's fetish for Southern tans ultimately lead to his demise ?

I wonder if this was pre-meditated stick poking at the Feds in cavalier fashion.

Agree with Bouchard to some degree re Canada is not a "real country"...too balkanized , but unfortunately with much Federal divide and conquer assistance.

The gravy train rolls on....Le choo choo.

It would be amusing except that we pay for this perpetual circus act, and often only with cheap seats to watch this political side show to boot.

Getting back to `le choo choo `, and what was before ..., in that the highways of the fur trade were indeed rivers..*

Thus the COLUMBIA RIVER in and of itself -though finding it`s headwaters in what we now call British Columia ,- nevertheless found itself within the COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT * of the Hudson Bay Company.. one of the oldest if notTHE OLDEST CHARTERED COMPANY .., hence the PACIFIC WEST COAST ,- with it`s rich historical artifacts and archives -offers a better template for exploration and discovery of CANADA itself.., ( in it`s future /past /present - dare I say state ..?)

As to the 1534- 1867 CANADA .., well one will clearly have to go digging very deep in the Archives back East , and specifically one will have to brush up on that other official language * , to in effect get at the very ROOTS of it`s beginnings *

Now why do I keep coming back to the COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT ? ..., well , I truly believe that within that historical documented territorial - imperially driven and trade / Empire related- IMPERATIVE .., can be deciphered the code and the language ( read NARRATIVE )that could provide for a breakthrough..*

Indeed , what I`ve come across in my travels has clearly opened up my eyes..
( Take Fort Langley , for instance .., when years ago - visiting - that particular national historic park ).., it was there that I felt that something was missing in how they explained away their Raison d`ètre .., indeed , it would take years , decades really , to span the great divide ..., of both historical narratives that I was familiar with , back then )..

( continued in the next post )

( continued from the previous post )

Being originally from New Brunswick , I had , in my graduation year , the choice of two history courses.,( 1964 ).
One was offered to us in the English Language , and the other , if we made that choice , was offered `en Français*

Now as most of you know , the province of New Brunswick has a particuliarity of it`s very own.., ( having within it`s bosom ..., parts that make up it`s whole.., by and by and in part of ,
firstly the original of the french settlers to set foot in North America..,creating settlements of their very own .
( they identified themselves as LES ACADIENS)...,

That province also took in some waves of the Loyalist population that was leaving the NEW ENGLAND dream, to - in effect- remain not only loyal to the KING.., but obviously to ENGLAND itself*
and gradualy thereafter to the CANADA they`ve come to know*

Les Acadiens* ...,well they like to explain -to any who would hear - that in 1608 , they directed the establishement of a Settlement further up the St. Laurence .., thus staking a claim of being the very first of the french settlers that were to come to LA NOUVELLE FRANCE.. (CANADA) in short for most of the new settlers , and it was a different DNA of a people that emerged there , those who believed they had found a homeland of their very own ( L`ACADIE), who acted as guides , advising the next wave of settlers to go further up the river*...

What to make of this nation ? .. for indeed wherever in the world an `ACADIAN` meets up with another , they stand in that imaginary ground they all refer to as L`ACADIE* ... UN ÉTAT D`ÂME , ( A STATE OF MIND ).. is how they explain their attachment to , at times an imaginary land..,

By the time they were dispersed all over the british Empire and colonies for having dared to refuse an oath to the King of England.. thus setting of ... ,
what Longfellow in the states named..,
in his epic tale the story of ÉVANGELINE*..., hence when one meets up with any of these peoples,.. - even in NEW ORLEANS itself.-., where they are known as CAJUNS .., there emerges a stream of consciousness that defies explanation , let alone our normal sense of identity*

When woody asked of le québecois , I would like to stress that les Acadiens
were not and did not see themselves as other francophone groups in Canada did..*

Thus .., the branches of the french settlers tree [B]which took root in canada can be integrated and assembled ..., by taking stock of the many different identities that sprang from that original ..., NOUVELLE FRANCE dream..,

Indeed, as did ENGLAND itself , having reached beyond it`s ability to hold unto what it seeded.., so was FRANCE`s experience in the resulting implosion of what now came to be named LES CANADIENS,... (* or LES HABITANTS , as some writers noted so clearly earlier in the posting )..

LE CANADIEN *.. is what became of the french settlement attempts in the `new world`.. as was THE AMERICAN , is what became of the british settlement attempts in that very same `new world `.. meanwhile nations had been here for the past 10,000 years and clearly looked in curiosity at first at these new explorers and adventurers..,

Hence in that context , what remains for us to ask ourselves.. is what was the consequence and resulting experience of these transformative visions that were taking hold in NORTH AMERICA..»

I SPEAK OF COURSE OF THE AMERICAN SETTLER AND HIS NEW FOUND DIRECTION..
( though having his roots in the ENGLAND of yesterday , today and tomorrows ).. he nevertheless made a break with his past *.. ( revolution , civil war and we know the rest .., a people coming into being ..,on the very shores of the explorers and discovers who preceeded them*..

( continued in the next post )

The other Settler - LE CANADIEN*../ LES CANADIENS , also were dramatically transformed.., and with their evolving transformative vision of their very own.., ( the one they called CANADA ).., they imploded deep into the land.., - rather then exploded , as did the experiment to the south of them -
indeed the resulting peoples that emerged were these HABITANTS.., these CANADIENS*.. [/B]and with their implosion , became invisible to this day *.. ie.. the went underground , I suppose is the way to explain it in modern days..,

This is why in a way we are confused when attempting to describe what happened to the French Settlers and Settlement itself.., THE CANADA SETTLEMENT .., of OLD , and the canada settlement we are struggling with in a 21st century setting .

It so happened that because the English Settler in the NEW ENGLAND dream.., spoke English , he called himself , in his transformative vision.. an AMERICAN*

So is the consequence of the fact that the French Settler in la NOUVELLE FRANCE`s dream spoke french and , he called himself , in his unique transformative vision... un CANADIEN*

Thus what remains in the larger puzzle the kind of pieces that need to be acknowledged as legitimate elements of the eventual NARRATIVE* ...,AND are as follows : .. FIRST NATIONS struggling to resist this invasion unto their 10,000 years habitat , along with these two emerging peoples.., ( American and Canadien* ) who clearly were creating problems for FRANCE and ENGLAND,.

THEN THERE WAS THE BRITISH EMPIRE ITSELF.., ATTEMPTING TO HOLD UNTO ANY KIND OF FOOTING IN THE `NEW WORLD `.. and it is within this complex paradigm that .., events plus treaties and eventual settlements .., were sometimes lost , sometimes found *

Indeed , The BNA act of 1867 spells out the British strategy , for North America itself.., - faced as it was with a revolution to the South and another to the North.. as far as emerging people`s taking hold in the `new world`..

What else could the Empire do.?., - an Empire that could claim prior to this NEW ENGLAND fiasco that the SUN NEVER SETS .., on the EMPIRE..,

So I say.., let`s get a very clear picture on the original canada*.. as experienced and defined by it`s first settlers ( the Europeans ).., and of course , if one thinks about it.., it will become very clear that CANADA`S first OFFICIAL LANGUAGE - besides the obvious language of NATURE herself..- was for the first 300 years of it`s existence experienced in the French language *.., Archives of the JESUITS and many other missionary efforts will clearly attest to this !

Thus LES HABITANTS , LES COUREURS DE BOIS , LES VOYAGEURS.., - ONE SEDENTARY , THE OTHERS ON THE MOVE..- FOLLOWING THE HIGHWAYS OF THE DAY,.. RIVERS , LAKES , PORTAGING AS THEY HAD TO.., IN THEIR QUEST TO INHABIT A LAND CALL CANADA.. WHICH SEEMED TO THEM, I`M CONVINCED , TO HAVE NO BOUNDS .., NO END. ( Bringing them along the way to the furthest reaches of this continent). ( Continued in the next post ) ...

( continued from the previous post .. and as a way to close the loop , full circle on the issues I bring to the DIALOG EPLORATION , DISCOVERY *)

Bringing us back to the fur trade and the COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT of the HUDSON BAY ITSELF.., and how it came to hire for the most part , that very same CANADIEN*.., who as COUREURS DE BOIS and VOYAGEURS had made himself.., indispensable to the fur trade * THUS THE QUESTION OF THE TWO VANCOUVER`S and the COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT and FORT VANCOUVER ITSELF.. AND IT`S SETTLEMENT AND SETTLERS.., circa 1825-1846 .. and beyond.*

This is the issue as far as I can see it. We either can get our narrative straight or we simply perish.. as a great experiment that could have been.

Sorry for the lenghty narrative , but I`ve just returned after a long absence.. ( contractual duties beckons , now and then )..., and I must say I am very pleased with the DIALOG that is progressing on this topic..

Once again , excuse my expansive forays into a very intuitive EXPLORATION and eventual DISCOVERY of the CANADA that inhabits all of us *...

I await more of your comments and thank you deeply for this experience..,

very CANADIEN and CANADIAN .., in a frame of reference really that takes in past collective memories AND joins them up to FUTURE projected visions and dreams of our very own.., 21st Century bound *..

village, very interesting to read your comments (novel) just kidding, but really, I much prefer to read, as Im very aware of my poor penmanship.
Im reading snips of what is being posted on this thread, Im forced to be away from my computer, as there are projects I must complete out doors due to the excellent weather. Ill add my two- bits worth on the subject later. O k, Im off to the salt mines, again.

Village, I also have an hockey analogy I would like to refer to.
While Wayne Gretzky was practicing hockey in his back yard, Walter Gretzky would continually remind Wayne , “never mind where the puck has been, its where its going that counts” So goes our future in BC,(Canada) we know where we have been , its where were going that counts, after all, history does have its limitations.
You made reference to Jane Jacobs in which she stated (a culture that`s forgotten that it`s forgotten completely let alone forgotten altogether is indeed doomed to oblivion and collapse.)
realisticman said
the Quebec Act of 1774. The act was bought into being by Lord Dorchester (Guy Carleton, 1st Baron Dorchester),as Governor of Quebec. The Act gave the French guarantees that would preserve their language, religion and Civil Law (based on the Napoleonic Code and as opposed to the British system that (Upper) Canada adopted.

I suggest that according to this Quebec Act, the only recognized religion under the Law is the Catholic religion, therefore if Quebec secedes, under their law all other religions could be declared illegal

The catholic church is diminishing in Quebec, but the language, French, with some English added to it, is being retained, are they not cherry picking their culture, if what Ms. Jacobs predicts , and Quebeckers abandon their culture(religion) then could they be doomed as she stated? Could it be, that the Church is supporting the separation of Quebec, as their act states it‘s the governing religion, once Quebec is on it’s own, then the Church could reign supreme, far fetch, maybe, but it is possible.
Regardless if they leave, they should not receive "divorce with bedroom privileges,

What is this French with some English added to it thing Woody? Sounds interesting. DO you have any idea how secular Quebec society actually is?

I'd guess not. You might want to go and live there for a while - you might be surprised to find it is a far less religion-dominated culture than is British Columbia or Alberta.

"Woody"

Interesting takes...

Given the terms of the Quebec Act....one could certainly postulate many things in the modern day.

Given the Church vs State relationship at the time...it appeared very seemless. It(Catholicism) was an inherent part of the Francophone identity by their choice in the deal struck in the Quebec Act.

Now, it the signatories or their future generations change their religion...or amend it,..or ignore it by choice...does that negate the original agreement? We enter a moot court debate that religion is a personal choice...not something that is imposed by law, YET part of the agreement? The Quebec Act, from what I am interpreting, was a carrot dangled at the time which made religion on par with the given ethnic identity. ie Francophone..much like Judaism is with Israel.

If the ethnic group wants to change its religious identity, the irony is the conflict of the "terms of the original agreement" versus their "freedom of religion".. If not mistaken, the US entrenched that "Freedom of Religion" including Catholicism...did it not? I am not sure Canada did at the time , not till the 20th century ?

Does Law trump the "right to religion"(or vice versa) in this case? Could someone "legally" claim ....."well the Quebecers ain't quantifiably following the core facets of the Catholic religion, thus Quebec is not Catholic , thus the deal is null and void...".

Then we potentially have legal vs religious freedom tied to the root agreement of Quebec's Canadian inclusion.

Just some thoughts in this legal semantic exercise.

My own take is that Gov'ts tend to pick and choose what they will obey, comply with and enforce, and often take court rulings and go off on self -serving interpreted tangents far removed from the court rulings main points.

The Quebec issue has morphed into a simple "mega -vote" power- base to be tapped using bits and pieces mined from the original roots.

Catholicism incubated the culture, then Catholicism was shed by Quebec like a now redundant placenta and umbilical cord. What was left was a paradoxical "independent" child...quasi stand alone via we are distinct( which implies stand alone).... yet still in perpetual need of the bigger Parent we call the rest of Canada. Perhaps analogized much like a 300+ year old young adult(Quebec) living in the parents(Canada's) basement suite. WHO needs WHO more?

Now we go off on another tangent...how we define representative democratic Gov't . Do we the people(TRUE GOV'T) kick this young adult out of the house...or the "other" Gov't uses Quebec , the spoiled adult in the basement suite...as an excuse to "keep the family together", and provides more and more room and board...aka the devil's deal of bastardized power in order to rule over the rest of us in the house...ie not in the REAL world.

PS Good points Woody !!!

Village...I do like your style..and very informative.

maestro you took the words right out my mouth, the exception being you’re much more eloquent
than I could ever hope to be.
G West ,You must admit the French Canadian language is inter mingled with English, I ve had people from France say to me, that the French Canadian language does not reflect on the French language, that it’s a Quebec French language, a totally separate language, to fully under stand this, one would have to be from France, after all they are the experts on their own language, remember, the language does belong to them and not Quebec!!!
One final thought, on the Quebec Act (The Act gave the French guarantees that would preserve their language, religion and Civil Law)
G West observe the word preserve, have they preserved the French language, the Catholic religion, you know the answers.

Well this time I did it .. having written a very long NARRATIVE , in response to what I`ve read up to now..

(I`ve just returned from my contractual obligations )..,

So let me respond ..:

Woody.., the idea of wayne ,now living and working in the United States .., makes for a cautionary approach.., ( even with our NATIONAL HOCKEY GAME ..) .

Indeed.. GAULOIS`s earlier cautionary observations vis a vis the CONTINENTAL deal making under way , to this very day.., should keep all of us reminded, that though Wayne got it down pat as per the technique of the game itself , as taught to him by his father, there is clearly another dimention that I`m sure WAYNE would have liked to grasp as well.., for when he was sold to the AMERICAN`s .., he clearly was at a lost for words and expressed his emotions very clearly at the time.., *

CAUGHT BY SURPRISE.. and clearly seeking answers for how things could have arrived at this dramatic change for him *...

(that`s one story , if we push the metaphor of CANADA to the very limits.., tells us to be cognisant of GAULOIS`s caution*..,

As to your other comment on LANGUAGE , it can stated that FRANCE does come to Norht America when it searches out the original french language.. for you see,
as the french language evolved over the centuries in Europe.., the french as gradually practices by LES CANADIENS*.., had indeed kept older french words that had become extinct in FRANCE*..,

The other thing I was trying to say in my opening line above was that the initial NARRATIVE that I`d written this morning simply was lost in cyberspace when I tried to send it *...,

ANYWAY , just as well, for I can now try to be more focused and specific in my observations..,

To the idea of the adult ( 300 years ) , living in the basement suite of the HOUSE OF CANADA..,

I like the metaphor and would like to express certain observations around that image..,

CANADA`s house I contend is near to being 500 years ..., from it`s earliest of blueprints.., for it can be stated that from the time of `discovery `by CARTIER in 1534 that the earliest of drawings of the Canada we are discussing came into fruition..,

ie.. the very idea of what MURDOCK asked of me.., when responding to my post ..,

in other words , my intentions..was what he asked of me..,

Hence , I would hope that we agree on the foundations from which this house was built..,and furthermore.., I would pray that we arrive at a clear NARRATIVE so that the pieces of the puzzle themselves.., ( pieces , by the way that are comprised of each of the provinces educational programs - that invariably vehicled stories of their very own*.)..

What I`m trying to say is that in this.., the land of the many canada`s , we are a resulting fabric of each of the provinces `stories `.. that could but attempt to tell their local- read provincial- stories.., when faced with such an older story as the one that could have explained away the CANADA of OLD..,

Hence we are , to this very day.. still confused by all of these pieces ,yet having no more the blueprint nor the schematics of the original house that was built..,

So we are faced with a round peg in a square circle.., when we try to fit in an adult (of some 300 years ).., into a new construction underway.., that has some 139 years of history *.,

We have close to 500 years of history in the big picture of CANADA..*.. and if we are ever to fit all of the pieces in a NARRATIVE that will stand the test of time.., then we clearly need to get at the foundation..,

My explorations and eventual discoveries - on location , in the field, as they say , along the pacific north west provided me with some very important clues and missing pieces[B]of our national puzzle..,

And though I agree with the statement that there are limits to history and looking back.., and indeed there is wisdom - to use the anlogy of the hockey puck., it is after all our national game and we should be able to learn from lessons it offers.- to look ahead.., to see where the puck is going.., these are indeed good advice and when we apply this to CANADA .. there is a future being attempted *.. for we are under construction indeed!

Well I would contend that in the game of life.., ( as Wayne himself was to learn about the business of hockey ).., there are many other factors then games that will impact on our lives..*..and as we are forever doomed to have HISTORY repeat itself.., ( simply look at what`s happening in the world today as another potential cataclysmic event is preparing itself.., unless people from all walk of life wake up and learn from HISTORY*..)

And so , in our own backyard it is even more important now to fully grasp our past, present and future imaginations*..,

for it is in the collective memory that one finds not only a `sense of place , sense of belonging and sense of identity`..but it is also in that collective imagination and capability of THE NARRATIVE that a people can find a future *..,

thus as with our road travelled that is clearly blurred by the missing pieces that prevents us to grasp the BIG PICTURE that the pieces are hinting at*[B]..

Try completing a puzzle without having the complete picture available .. you know the one that is usually found on the box ...,

THE PUZZLE STILL CAN BE COMPLETED! but with more challenges and difficulties , that`s for sure..,

and in our case , I contend that we have that challenge , we have these difficulties .. because the MISSING PIECES.., though somewhere`s.., to be found , remain lost for most of us..,

WHICH BRINGS ME BACK TO THE PACIFIC NORTH WEST AND SPECIFICALLY MY QUESTION SURROUNDING THE TWO VANCOUVER`S..., there is a direct connection between the missing pieces and this question*..

Now to the author of the article itself*.

RAFE, .. re: For most of us that subject was laid to rest on October 26, 1992, when Canadians, especially in Western Canada and even more especially in British Columbia, trashed the Charlottetown accord (there's an oxymoron, for you) and made it clear that no one gets special treatment. Oddly enough, Quebec rejected the deal as well, but in their case it was because the special deal offered wasn't enough.

I would contend rafe , that the matter surrounding the constitution was tackled by Pierre Elliot Trudeau.. in 1982 , for it was as his reasoning went at the time that `.. and I quote `..if we don`t define ourselves , somebody else will`..reasoning that catapulted our senses and indeed created a process to repatriatea constitution that had been from it`s ofset safely kept in Westminster.. , indeed reflecting very clearly what the strategy was.., when the colonies were given and gave themselves in the process an agreement that was acceptable to all parties.. , thus the BNA ACT of 1867 to forever cement the new beginnings of a future to be .. CANADA*...

Under construction , and to this day unfinished.., ( and yet ' to continue the HOUSE OF CANADA metaphor.. and analogy .,) I would contend that the
repatriation of 1982 was the crucial decision to in effect bring the blueprints of that contemplated construction - you know , the one that was imagined by the founding fathers of confederation in 1867 - , indeed that construction site being in North America , with the blueprints securely kept in WESTMINSTER*...,

Hence the NEW CANADA forever having to visit ENGLAND when it was seeking permission to add this or that or even to build itself.., ( thus a gradual colonial mentality that evolved into a sense of independence.. ).. best personafied and actualised by that one act of REPATRIATION*.
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And so I have difficulty rafe , in accepting your opening gambit as to a defining moment in the history of the 1867 canada under construction*..,

I would rather think that we got matters going most fundementaly as an independant country when , and with a repatriated constitution we earnestly began to negotiate...as was the case with many attempts , such as MEECH LAKE or subsequent processes... that indeed are dealing with the very fundemental foundational beginnings of not only 1867 but as we have seen takes in the popular imagination of the earliest of settlers and settlements.. THUS THE IMPORTANCE THAT WE GET OUR NARRATIVE , that we reach a common understanding on how we got to where we are today.. *..

that folks is what history offers up ..,a sense of not only place , understanding and identity.. but furthermore offers up a sense of the collective imagination itself*.. without which you cannot have a country*

Thus we need to take Jane Jacobs thoughts seriously , as we ponder our
21st century construction , as we also ponder the blueprints we are working from and with.., and also as we ponder our identity*

and to the title of the article..
NOW QUEBEC`S A NATION*?...

I personally would have asked.. the question.. WAS CANADA EVER A NATION PRIOR TO 1867 ?*.. and me thinks that Rafe would have difficulty in tackling that one !

Indeed the very existence of a CANADA prior to the BRITISH version of the colonies getting together to attempt a Canada nation of their very own.., having suffered the humiliation of the 13 colonies to the south of the first Canada planted on the shores of North America by the French*..

Let us by clear about this.., the French from the very beginning - and this is documented - sent 1/10th of the population that was sent to the NEW ENGLAND COLONIES.. ( these original `English subjects `of course all within the NEW ENGLAND STATES as they are called today .., in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA..»*)

Thus the English subjects gradually within the New England colonies ..,started a revolution and what followed was a civil war.. then a people.., we now call the AMERICAN*..,

What isn`t as well acknowledged .. is what became of the French settlers..,in their abandonment.. by the King of France.., indeed.., through a very different process.., one of planting their seeds and roots.., in the land itself.. and establishing ties with the aboriginal population, they as an emerging peoples..,( LES CANADIENS )..though not as visible in their implosion.., were nevertheless..,transformed and chose CANADA as their land..,indeed..,the CANADA they were building ,had little to do with the French , once the abandonment was complete.. , but rather was an imaginary Canada*.. a CANADA that would live within the coureurs de bois., and voyageurs.. wherever he or she travelled..*.. ,

thus with the fur trade offering up an avenue and an opportunity to experience the lay of the land and the freedom that came with becoming one`s very own person.. rather then a king`s subject..you have the birth of LE CANADIEN and CANADA *... *( of old )

WHAT SAY YE.. RAFE TO THIS NARRATIVE!?

TECHNICAL TIP:

(NOTE: I'll comment on this Quebec topic later)

Felt for ya , Village, when you lost your blog in cyberspace.
I contacted the TYEE re this...its not an UNcommon problem. They said they are trying to work on it.

I get ambushed too..I look logged in..then something else shows up ie that blue "BULLETIN" sign- in etc. shows up .

A trick I use is LOG OUT even if the TYEE web-site says you are logged in. Then LOG IN again ie Re-Load. Then type and send..seems to work every time for me .

Sometimes this "lost in cyberspace" glich happens EVEN when you are logged in and the first comment/s were successfully posted.

OR if you have gone over the TYEE's character limit, click on the " BACK Arrow " at the upper left corner of the screen...it should come back, (but not always), then edit it down so it will be accepted.

PS It is very frustrating when you lose it, but hopefully this helps.

thanks Maetro , ( though I have to leave soon on one of my EXPLORATION and DISCOVERY trips..) , ( that`s the definition I give to my side bar activities when I`m not carrying out my contractual obligations ).. ofF to the PACIFIC NORTH WEST REGION AGAIN.!..,

I do enjoy my work , as it has given me the freedom to actually experience the various sites that have , wether within it`s landscape ..., sometimes within the mindscape also.. ( people , elders , locals and what have you ) who clearly - it has been my experience - enjoy sharing WITH , and at times learning from a stranger *...,

Which by the way makes me think that one of the most accurate description i`ve ever encountered that defines all of us , CANADIENS* and CANADIANS* .. - that is all of us who inherited ...what LES CANADIENS and the early next builders of the second canada under construction.. THE CANADIANS..built, as they came to call themselves.., indeed.. the defining description I stumbled on one day .., was - though not intended to play that role - the title of a book called A STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND *..

Of course I speak only of the title.., for the story of this particular author situates itself.. way , way into the future.., and i can`t really say that I`ve read much science fiction.., though this one , I`d recommend to anyone ..* but getting back to my point.., it was the title that inspired me to think that it offered up.., for the country called CANADA.., a possible answer to both it`s riddle , puzzle and enigma..*..,

We are indeed in many ways a 21st Century story unfolding before our very eyes.., ( if we ,but could open them...), thus the STRANGER IN A STRANGER LAND mantle that we carry ...

So I can only thank you for the technical tips and also add that I`ve also found another way to safeguard what I`d written.., ( though I did not use that technique on that one I lost recently )
and that isto copy what I`d written to another newly created E MAIL , as a safe keeping technique and also as a way to have within my MEMORY BANK.. ( sent copies ) , the various
comments that I come up with..., that is , if and only if , I deem them worthy of keeping *.. otherwise I rely on TYEE to serve as a great BANK OF INFORMATION as to past contributions *...

Looking forward to your comments Maestro, upon my return trip* ( and that goes for the others as well.)

Meanwhile , I`l go on exploring and discovering not only the landscapes..but it`s peoples as well*..

Thanks , once again.

VILLAGE*

Which by the way.., as STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND.., resulting from what JANE JACOBS was warning anyone who wanted to listen to about..,

STRANGERS UNTO OURSELVES, (*collectively speaking ).., due to the very near impossible country governance model needed . Thus having given to the provinces the education jurisdiction we found and at the same time lost ourselves.., in the confusion of the two stories that needed to be told..,

ONE , obviously , had to deal with the
province that was unfolding.., it`s history, it`s myths , it`s peoples.., then you had the larger NARRATIVE that was needed , but absent .. due to the complexity of the story itself..*

thus , one needed to have a good command of LA LANGUE DE MOLIÈRE ,if he or she was ever to fully grasp the very first ( European ) CANADA that initially was unfolding in North America.., , THEN , each of the province had to find a way to weave a tale that would include them , and at the same time not overwhelm.. their unique though smaller province *.., hence the LAND OF THE MANY CANADA`s that could only be the result of each province having been given .. such a powerfull tool..,. as to shaping the minds of their respective citizenry*..

A very large territory , and a vast network ( if we can call it that) of PROVINCES .., attempting at once.. in a web of communication to protect their respective provincial narrative..*..
( what I call.. a territorial communications imperative ).., and then via this network , receive from the CANADA OF OLD.., various stories that would be included or not to the provincial story line *..

Thus a land of communications *.. , by any other name.. could , but be born , out of this kind of challenge..*..

( to be continued )..

( continued from above post )

WHICH FINALLY BRINGS ME TO THE `ALICE IN WONDERLAND` COMMENTS THAT RAFE MAKES IN HIS ARTICLE..*

and I quote : [B]* With that sort of wooliness to work with, enter Humpty Dumpty and Alice. "'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty says, in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

"'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

"'The question is,' says Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master -- that's all.'"[/B]

If your intention , as any good writer`s intention is , is to invite a thoughtfull reflection , then , Rafe , I would say you succeeded , in spades..*

but as Murdock asked of me.., as per intentions.., what was your intention
Rafe ? ( or should I ask Alice , or better yet Humpty Dumpy .. )

I await with great interest the reflections you will offer , to all of us who did reflect upon your article and the very story line that you offered up to all of us .

Is it not time , we all opened up our eyes ?

From SEA , To Sea , to sea?

village says

Good suggestion, I say, but a question remains, how does one get a Quebecker to open his mind and ears ?
Good luck on that score.

woody,
Can you explain, in twenty-five words or less, why you think Quebecers have any less open minds than other Canadians?

Have you ever lived for any extended period of time in Quebec?

Further to this discussion:

One can engage into a continual semantic discussion of nation..distinct society, soveriegnty -association etc.

Rafe said it best QUOTE:

"Nations within states have not , it would seem, produced happy countries ".

How historically true.
Canada seems to have continually FAILED ie "F" History classes via learned sweet bugger all from History...thus repeat it ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

The Humpty Dumpty logic is classic in politics, perhaps much like what VILLAGES' analysis is implying .

Misdirection from the problem is the political " solve all ",...or use the same solution but call it something else.

It is like spinning a tire in the mud.....except change the tire = new solution to same problem?...or change the mud....same difference?

I foresee this Canada vs Quebec as a problem meeting its own Waterloo...a showdown...

There is a lack of wriggle room approaching. What more can Quebec ask???...what more can Canada give???...yet this old political shell game/ponzi scam seems to be programmed into the Canadian identity and more importantly in the Canadain political system, hence any/all Canadian Gov'ts regardless of who is in power.

As I noted earlier..WE the people are Gov't (also: just finished seeing movie "V for VENDETTA")...if we were truly represented by those in GOV'T I feel the mood would be for Quebec to smarten -up and we call their "le bluff"... ie my previous analogy of 300+ year old immature adult(QUEBEC) in rest of Canada's basement suite.

However, our so called "Gov't" exposes itself as to what most Gov't have evolved into...another "immature and irresponsible adult" given the keys to the car(Canada), and take full advantage of it to maintain this "privilege of power" as some sort of bastardized right.

By garnering the support of the "QUEBEC immature adult"...they(Gov't in its current form and Quebec) give their parents(Rest of Canada) the middle finger and claim child abuse if we, the rest of Canada , ie most of THE GOV"T wish to clamp down.

Again, time to call the bluff...the Gov't and Quebec are getting cornered, less wriggle room, no more BS political camouflaging the REAL PROBLEM with " new improved Humpty - Dumpty -esque definitions "...

Let's all simply call A Spade a " Le Spade".

The current model of Car( ie full of clowns in this political circus) is running out of Gas...Insurance soon expired... will "sieze -up" soon because of poor long- term political maintenance .

It's soon time for the rest of us(THE GOV'T ) to take the KEYS back..... given those in Gov't currently with the keys are DUI...drunk with power.... on some grandiose joy ride that has gone on far too long, and may ultimately lead us all (THE GOV'T) down some collective highway to oblivion.

I think that type of judegment day is fast approaching.

Otherwise we simply foster, encourage and incubate Gov't corruption and corrupted Gov'ts...right Humpty Dumpty?

maestro

Perhaps a pill is indicated.

From it's outset Canada has accomodated. The Canadian way of tollerance has bought it much repect throughout the world. Over the past few years when Quebecers have been in power in Ottawa they have frequently attempted to accomodate big time and this has often led to much acrimony. It seems as though when Ottawa is more passive vis-a-vis Quebec time passes and things are calmer. Ergo, as long as there is someone other than a Quebecer running the show in Ottawa time will pass and demographics will continue to strengthen the voice of non-Quebecers in the House. (Note than in the census reported this week, for the first time in history Alberta and BC now have more residents than Quebec.) As House seats are created to meet this growing population so too will the voice of English speaking Canada. Quebec's birthrate is now very low and it's becoming more cosmopolitain due to the necessary immigration. These new Quebecers are less likely to be radical independantists and the old pur and dur (pure [old French stock] and dur [hardline] know this. The concept of a distinct nation of Quebec diminishes to farce as the society there becomes more diversified. Pierre Trudeau once wrote remember the Portugese saying, "the worst is never certain"."

G West asked,
woody,

Answer-- spoilt, spoiled ,culture of entitlement !!!!

What’s this got to do with the price of tea in China ?

I suppose if the topic was about Moose Ass, unless I lived there for an extended period, then Im not entailed to an opinion about the place, correct, this is what your implying.

To woody :.., as to the QUÉBECOIS , who by the way roots from LE CANADIEN*..., is simply , also in search of it`s collective memory .., for indeed.., the programs that one can hear these days on RADIO CANADA , does offer up hope that this part of CANADA is indeed returning to fundemental questions of ROOTS..,

A particular program I have in mind is entitled..: LES REMARQUABLES OUBLIÉS *.. or something to that effect.., which translated , refers to the search and exploration that one named..: Serge Bouchard is conducting.., and getting a growing audience..., as he researches then shares with his audience his findings.., along with opening the lines to the listener..., in a sort of TYEE manor *.., ( Forum ), if you will *.

To Gwest , perhaps WOODY`s reflections comes from the fact that the Province of Quebec , ever since the PARTI QUÉBECOIS came into power is undergoing an inward journey of their own.., for indeed , the history that is now found in that province .., would have it`s population believe that LE QUÉBECOIS , roots from FRANCE .., without having to go via the more immediate CANADA tree ROOTS .. that I spoke of in my earlier post.

Indeed .., for the population in QUEBEC at this stage of our - CANADA`s - evolution..,there is also a need for them.., as well as all budding future CANADIANS.. to rediscover the actual ROOTS OF CANADA itself..., and this , and only then and when the larger population of this country comprehends the road travelled of an idea called CANADA .., thenand only then.,.
will we all comprehend our beginnings as a country...,

WHICH OWES IT`S FIRST FOUNDATIONAL SETTLEMENT TO WHAT BECAME OF THE FRENCH SETTLER..: ie... le canadien*lies very deep in the furthest of our collective memory .. and is at the very limits.., ( of a memory potentialy forever lost - remember JANE JACOB`s
reflections on what happens to any civilisation that not only forgets, but more serious yet is the moment in any society when the population actualy forgets that they`ve forgoten *..., )

And my suggestion is that we all who reside in this place.., in this land, in this HOUSE CALLED CANADA.., are about to remove from our memories one of the most important ingredients..- or missing piece of the CANADA PUZZLE - if you want.., and that is the existence for now close to 500 years of
LE CANADIEN*.., a people who , disapeared ( out of sight out of mind )..,as they planted ever deeper seeds in the land they called CANADA *..and in so doing and blending their futures with the First Nations , he , she .. they as voyageurs and courreurs de bois .. travelled the lenght and breath of this country..,and beyond what are now our defined boundaries..,for you must remember that CANADA , was indeed , in the sense that fur traders and settlements that flowed from that fur trade.., was , as I was saying ..,ever a larger territory then the one we`ve come to know in today`s boundary settlements *&

They were known by this name ,LES CANADIENS*. , and had no translation for many hundred years.., for they spoke amongts themselves..,`dans la langue de Molière ` and came to see themselves , much as the ENGLISH SETTLERS - turned AMERICAN..- as freemen and woman..* in respective lands that offered a new beginning *..

Geneology's fun. I look forward to when we can have our DNA mapped for a buck while we wait for our capuccino. It'll be a new franchise operation, let's call it, 'Who ARE you?', I can hear Roger Daltry now, in Quebec, 't'est QUI la?', more latin when said quickly.

Actually , in Mexico.., one would here that very phrase REALISTICMAN,...

I love it !

Picking up on your DNA remarks.., I am convinced that our collective memory exists within..., our ability to simply acknowledge our road travelled , as I was saying ..,as a people.., that has seen many additional cultures grafted to the earliest of the experiment..,

Hence if we could only have our historical DNA available..,we perhaps could complete the PUZZLE*.

As to the term LE QUÉBECOIS *.., he actually is but a branch of LES CANADIENS*.., in that, sensing .., after ENGLAND accepted the exchange that FRANCE proposed in the final treaties that was to settle the geopolitical positioning around the world of these competing EMPIRES.., then and only then did LE CANADIEN*.. ( ie. the very people who lived within the newly defined homeland called QUEBEC by the BRITISH..) , well , that branch of
LE CANADIEN*.., - for it must be remembered that as voyageurs and courreurs de bois..,the most adventurous of LE CANADIEN*.., travelled to the furthest regions of this continent *.., and along the way identified the land that he or she experienced as the land called CANADA*.., ( including leaving many names along the way.., describing the landmarks for portaging and travelling purposes.., the MAPS across North America are full of these peoples signatures , and footprint- as they named features of the land in their mother language .. and most of these terms are still in evidence today*..

thus , as I was saying that the more sedentary CANADIEN*.., WHO FOUND HIMSELF AND LOST HIMSELF ALSO.., WITHIN A NEW IDENTITY THAT WAS BEING IMPOSED BY BOTH FRANCE AND ENGLAND...,,WITHIN THE TERRITORY NOW CALLED QUEBEC..,well he had to take on another identity..

For LE CANADIEN *.., in that part of CANADA that the BRITISH ended up CALLING QUEBEC..,which by the way , at one time encompased , I believe ,as it was known both as LA NOUVELLE FRANCE /CANADA and encompased both UPPER CANADA and LOWER CANADA ..,depending on who was settling within these boundaries at the time..

Indeed.., with the arrival of the Loyalist and the geopolitical positioning of the BRITISH .., as they faced the lost of the 13 colonies to the south.., was to challenge the existence of this very
CANADIEN*.., within this newly created territory by the British.., ( QUEBEC )

Hence , the solution , gradually , for LE CANADIEN* who , as HABITANTS within the province of QUEBEC.., [B]gradually begining to take on a territorial identity..,

Meanwhile,
LES CANADIENS beyond the borders of that particular province survived in the best way they could.., and their.,
descendants *(ie.)LES COURREURS DE BOIS.. AND VOYAGEURS.. were to experience a completely different reality..*.., for they lived in the greater canada of the fur trading era.., and gradually saw their identity transformed by those who settled alongside them.., thus the term ...:
french canadians gradually began to take hold.., as THE ENGLISH called
them , *..,

FRANCE also.., having kept ST. PIERRE DE MIQUELON..,, also referred to LES CANADIENS.., as les CANADIENS FRANÇAIS.., as a way to keep their ties with their transformed settlers and settlement..,

Thus what was LE CANADIEN to do?..,faced with a transformative process that was to create layers and layers of language and distant memories between the role they played in the earliest of the EUROPEAN CANADA that was created and settled.. , only to be now.., ( in a 21st Century .., memory become a void and memory blank.., ) to be completely ignored..*..

When this missing piece of the puzzle is once again re-integrated within our acknowled historical stepping stone of settlement ,, then the discussions that I hear in this post would take on a clearer NARRATIVE..*.. and we would all be in the same framework and frame of reference..,

thus we could go on , constructing that HOUSE.., 21st Century construction materials , memories and all..*

To Maestro :

The Canada ( rest of Canada ) you refer to was built on the very foundations of that first CANADA that I keep mentioning*

Thus the analogy of the basement suite offers up , in the 21st Century construction we are attempting..,(ie. in the CANADA of tomorrow..), a certain challenge of accommodation ..,for indeed the elders of Canada*.., WHICH BY DEFINITION , IN MY BOOKS , ARE THESE VERY FIRST PEOPLES FROM EUROPE WHO GRADUALLY SAW THEMSELVES AS A PEOPLE inhabiting a new land called CANADA*..,well.. , at 300+ and more years.. have surely earned some grandfather rights.., as to the 21st Century House that they helped build..?

Clearly the saga of these peoples.. ,within the now province of Quebec.., and those beyond Quebec who have LES CANADIENS as their ancestors.., well they , I will remind you Maestro.., have settled all over the great territory and land called CANADA.. and some have settled even beyond the boundaries that we see as CANADA today.., in the CANADA that they experienced.., circa fur trade etc..,

What I`m trying to say is that the MAPS of old provide the clues once again to the PUZZLE not only of the CANADA OF OLD.., BUT CLEARLY ALSO POINT TO THE CHALLENGES AND STRUGGLE , OF THE 21ST CENTURY CANADA under construction*,...

(* the ARTIC QUESTION but one of the challenges of the construction site we call CANADA today..)..

Thus , in the same way , that we are at a peril if we cannot grasp LE CANADIEN`S history..,we are also faced with a challenge when attempting the CANADA of tomorrow*.,..

and unless we can pull these elements within our collective memory.., ie..,
integrating along the way, not only our past , but our very perilous present (* as we begin to forget that we`ve forgotten a very important memory )...,then , as we attempt also to bring together a vision of the future *.., that 21st Century Canadian..,perilously at the very limits of identity itself, or DNA , as Woody would say..,..,*.. because we cannot agree on a blueprint..,we all stand around.., within the CONSTRUCTION SITE.., - as daunting and vast as it is- and we clearly need to reach an understanding and a working parameter .., a framework also.., for indeed.., as any carpenter will tell you..,it`s all about the frame*..,and of course , the foundation *...

Village
What is it that Quebec desires, or expects from Canada, that would appease?

That's easy woody. Some of it was in the Meech Lake Accord, that failed to pass.

1) A guarantee of 25% of the seats in the House, no matter how much the 'rest' of Canada grows.

2) Continuing veto on any constitutional change (ie. Senate stays as is).

3) Distinct, or similar, clause in the PREAMBLE to the Canadian Constitution obliging any federal or court decisions to take into account the specifics of Quebec as per languange & culture.

4) Complete control over communications. (No more CRTC rulings in Quebec on tv, radio, telecommunications, etc.).

5) The voice and face (visage) of Canada abroad shall be that of a French one first. (Since Quebecers were the founding people it's wrong that people come to Quebec and expect to speak English. It's also an insult to Quebecers).

6) An equal voice, 50/50, and a seat at the table with Canada on all interprovincial & international issues (Not ten Premiers but one representative from Canada as a whole.); including the right to have foreign consular delegations and offices.

7) A federal government that is obliged to fund any trade, social or cultural programme (based on the Distinct Society Clause) that the Quebec Assembly deems appropiate for Quebec.

8) A federal government that ensures that the other provinces shall make French language studies and training mandatory, so that all Quebecers will be able to 'live' or do business anywhere in Canada in French and not feel inferior, or obliged to speak English.

9) Equalization funds so that Quebecers enjoy a standard of living as high as anywhere else in Canada.

10) Complete control over taxation of the citizens and businesses in Quebec.

Learn the language and listen for a while and you'll see that this is not silly speculation.

Yeah woody, that's exactly what I'm implying. If the topic were 'moose ass', as you so colourfully put it, I'd have a lot more respect for the opinions of someone with at least a passing familiarity with the moose.

Same deal with Quebec. I could throw out a dozen descriptors of anything - you for example - based on little more than what you write on these pages.

I doubt it would do YOU justice.

As for realisticman's list, all federations have certain shared principles that bind them and commit them to certain things - not to others. These are, and were, subjects of negotiation.

Realisticman may not like it, and that is his privilege, although, in fairness he misrepresents much of the material he writes about. In any case, Canada is a richer and better place for Quebec's presence, in my view, and Realisticman's prejudice is largely the same thing he once tried on these pages to shovel in France's face. I suspect he dislikes the Gallic shrug, had a bad experience avec une mademoiselle or had inordinate difficulty with French verb conjugation in Public School.

Nice to see you posting here again, Realisticman.

G West, I have to work for a few hours,(work---something you only read about but never had to participate in) then I'll have a comment for you.

To Maestro , Realisticman AND Gwest..,

In my discussions so far , I`ve alluded to a previous canada`s existence ..,
A nation , if you will, which , when I futher think about it .., was the incubating womb for the various other NATIONS models that were eventually grafed to that particular OLD CANADA ..., in which LE , LA and LES CANADIENS , it is my contention, were the first of many that were to follow in the DREAM OF A FUTURE CANADA... that to this very day is still not only an experiment as some of our great thinkers have stated , but clearly also in a WORKS IN PROGRESS.., to this very day*...

And so , Maestro , when you write , and I quote : However, our so called "Gov't" exposes itself as to what most Gov't have evolved into...another "immature and irresponsible adult" given the keys to the car(Canada), and take full advantage of it to maintain this "privilege of power" as some sort of bastardized right.[B]

I BELIEVE THIS EXPLAINS WELL THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE POLITICAL DIMENTION OF THE `POLITICAL CLASS `IN THIS COUNTRY , as it attempts with all of the CLEAVAGE FORCES at play, to reconcile.., `the differences`.,, `distances`, and of course .,`regions`.

Indeed as the GOVERNMENT.. ( and you are correct in stating that THE PEOPLE is the GOVERNMENT..) , yet we all know that in REALPOLITIC the translated `VOICES `Of every single individual Canadian .., finds itself framed in that .., comment of Frank ... who was responding to another`s observation ...

ie.. commentor: Frankposted: 5 Days AgoQuote:
because what's left of Canada wouldn't be much more than a pathetic little magic republic of murdockville.

Not true G, we'll all turn into 25 million sovereign individuals. With our own individual economies tailored to our individual needs :-[B]; ..... ,

THERE`S HINTS OF THE FILM VENDETTA IN THAT LAST COMMENT MAESTRO ..

( continued in the next post )

( continued from the previous post )

Thus as you continued your thoughts Maestro with the following :

[I]By garnering the support of the "QUEBEC immature adult"...they(Gov't in its current form and Quebec) give their parents(Rest of Canada) the middle finger and claim child abuse if we, the rest of Canada , ie most of THE GOV"T wish to clamp down.

In this metaphor , the question of who is who.. as per the younger and the parent applies .. I`m with you Maestro , when you imply that ( the rest of canada)is involved in building the CANADA of tomorrow.., ) but to call the rest of canada the parents.., denies the respect of the elders themselves who pioneered the very existence of CANADA *..,wouldn`t you say?

Again, time to call the bluff...the Gov't and Quebec are getting cornered, less wriggle room, no more BS political camouflaging the REAL PROBLEM with " new improved Humpty - Dumpty -esque definitions "...

Let's all simply call A Spade a " Le Spade".[/B]

Could I suggest that we replace the word SPADE... , (LE SPADE) ..,with the words LE CANADIEN..., LES CANADIENS*... ?

The reason I`m suggesting another word is to get out of the Humpty- Dumpty esque definitions.., for indeed , in-house .., we have our very own and unique metaphors and language.., indeed we have two official languages.., creating , I will admit, at times a collective split mind on many issues.., and yet at the same time offering up a possibility of a second opinion and perspective... indeed.., offering up , much like our individual bi-cameral minds.., AN IMAGINATION *.. CAPABLE OF DIFFERENT ANGLES OF PERCEPTION*..., AND INTEGRATION OF A GREATER OBSERVATION )

THUS IT IS .. THAT WE HAVE ALSO ADDED TO THAT ROOTED TWO LANGUAGE ABILITY OF THINKING .., - POLITICALLY SPEAKING - AN ADDED DIMENTION OF THE MULTILINGUAL AND MULTICULTURAL PRESENCE OF AN INCREASINGLY MAJORITY BOUND AGGREGATELY CONNECTED POPULATION TO MOST WORLD CULTURES*...

giving CANADA .., a WORLD PERSPECTIVE , like no other .. hence the challenge of integrating once again.., of grafting ..
( politically speaking ) this emerging new , increasingly influential population to our 21ST CENTURY BOUND ... experiment*..

Indeed.., the wiggle room , you seek out Maestro , can be clearly felt and experienced in the new immigration that flows within our experimental construction*.., indeed, they ,- new and older immigrants of recent centuries - are finding an accomodation..,because within this vast land.., we have ROOM TO WIGGLE..,

( continued in the next post )

as I say we`ve got lots of room.. thus , my taking up so much space in the comments I`m making.., Sorry about that ! ) .. ( continued from above ) . ,
and I promise .., for I need to get back to my contractual obligations..but will look forward to other observations by the participants within this TYEE UNIVERSE *.., again thanks for your patience ..

INDEED.., A VAST , ONE OF THE LARGEST TERRITORIES under one GVT.., in the world today.., giving us not only the bounty and the raw natural resources that we`ve inherited.., AS i WAS SAYING.., ,but also giving us ROOM and SPACE... to breathe*.., Thus our uncanny ability to get along.., because in effect , for most of our history and road travelled we didn`t have to get along*..,( our vast dominion provided the backdrop to our uncanny ability to simply resettle somewheres else..) there was much space to move unto.., to settle.., thus the world mythology that we are a people, in CANADA .. that know how to get along..*.., persisting to this day*

And that is fine .., but we`ve got to give due to where credit is due.. and that my friends is the LAND ITSELF...,

WE`VE HISTORICALLY GOTTEN ALONG BECAUSE IN EFFECT WE DIDN`T HAVE TO GET ALONG.., BUT NOW , AS THE WORLD IS SHRINKING DAY BY DAY.., WE ARE NOW FACED WITH THE MYTH AND THE REALITY OF FINDING SOLUTIONS TO AN EVER GROWING (loss of our collective memory ,for one..) .., which we - if we do not have it - cannot pass it on to the new members of our growing family ... and so the challenges for change and SOCIÉTÉ NOUVELLE .. frameworks.., evolving within our imagination, once again*..

THE NEED THEREOF.. AND THEREFORE.. TO DO AN INVENTORY OF OUR communication ABILITIES AS A PEOPLE..,( in our ability to span great distances..,telephone networks being seen as some of the best run networks in the world.. why with the multi-jurisdictional hurdles that needed to be dealt with , as an exampe ).., THEN TO RETURN OUR ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS , TO THE MEMORIES , TO THE HISTORICAL FACTORS .., THAT ARE INFLUENCING OUR THINKING...*..

OUR NARRATIVE *..,TO BE PASSED ON TO COMING GENERATIONS.. WOULD SEEM TO ME ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING AND URGENT MATTER TO TEND TO.. and our DISCOVERY OF WHAT WE ARE REALLY GOOD AT.., COMMUNICATIONS * bar none * are two elements of our future construction attributes that can guarantee our country`s existence in a 21st Century setting *.

as I say we`ve got lots of room.. thus , my taking up so much space in the comments I`m making.., Sorry about that ! ) .. ( continued from above ) . ,
and I promise TO BE MINDFUL of the amount of space I`m occupying on this subject matter..( it`s just that I feel very passionate about this country and would like that we build the bridges necessary to go over the rivers , streams and gaps that prevent us from getting the complete picture of Canada ) .., On that note , for I need to get back to my contractual obligations..but will look forward to other observations by the participants within this TYEE UNIVERSE *.., again thanks for your patience .. Thus I will sum up my thoughts from the previous post *.. so here goes ...:

INDEED.., A VAST , ONE OF THE LARGEST TERRITORIES under one GVT.., in the world today.., giving us not only the bounty and the raw natural resources that we`ve inherited.., AS i WAS SAYING.., ,but also giving us ROOM and SPACE... to breathe*.., Thus our uncanny ability to get along.., because in effect , for most of our history and road travelled we didn`t have to get along*..,( our vast dominion provided the backdrop to our uncanny ability to simply resettle somewheres else..) there was much space to move unto.., to settle.., thus the world mythology that we are a people, in CANADA .. that knows how to get along..( and we do!*.., persisting to this day*

And that is fine .., but we`ve got to give due to where credit is due.. and that my friends is the LAND ITSELF...,

WE`VE HISTORICALLY GOTTEN ALONG BECAUSE IN EFFECT WE DIDN`T HAVE TO GET ALONG.., BUT NOW , AS THE WORLD IS SHRINKING DAY BY DAY.., WE ARE NOW FACED WITH THE MYTH AND THE REALITY OF FINDING SOLUTIONS TO AN EVER GROWING (loss of our collective memory ,for one..) .., which we - if we do not have it - cannot pass it on to the new members of our growing family ... and so the challenges for change and SOCIÉTÉ NOUVELLE .. frameworks.., evolving within our imagination, once again*..

THE NEED THEREOF.. AND THEREFORE.. TO DO AN INVENTORY OF OUR communication ABILITIES AS A PEOPLE..,( in our ability to span great distances..,telephone networks being seen as some of the best run networks in the world.. why with the multi-jurisdictional hurdles that needed to be dealt with , as an example ).., THEN TO RETURN OUR ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS , TO THE MEMORIES , TO THE HISTORICAL FACTORS .., THAT ARE INFLUENCING OUR THINKING...*..

OUR NARRATIVE *..,TO BE PASSED ON TO COMING GENERATIONS.. WOULD SEEM TO ME ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING AND URGENT MATTER TO TEND TO.. and our DISCOVERY OF WHAT WE ARE REALLY GOOD AT.., COMMUNICATIONS * bar none * are two elements OF THE MANY of our future construction attributes that can guarantee our country`s existence in a 21st Century setting *.

Sorry ! ... sent twice..,the technical side of this is taking over.

ONE LAST THOUGHT TO gardensnake.., and to Gaulois..,and of course Murdock..,
Maestro ,Gwest and so many others ( woodie , for example ) ..including Rafe for setting the stage of ideas to have this kind of Forum happen.. ( actually it`s the TYEE that I wish to acknowledge here.. in bringing about a revolutionary and participatory citizen engagement process )... to the very people.. who are seeking to have a VOICE.. and input into the governance aspect of their lives..,

And to you realisticman , for providing thoughtful comments that shows depth and , yes , common sense .., to your observations.., ( the let`s be realistic side of life.. )..,and you Maestro who waded in , fearlessly in the discussion at hand.., thanks..,all of you for making this experience very worthwhile..*

THANKS , ONCE AGAIN *... ( I hope that reflections as of yet formulated continues within this written article of Rafe`s..., )

Still waiting for your comments Rafe..
Until then, I remain attentive to those that will participate in this great
search for identity*, and country*.
VILLAGE

Having read your contributions in total within this post realisticman , I WANTED TO MAKE CERTAIN OBSERVATIONS TO YOU individually..,

the term French Canadian FOR ONE.., created by both the ENGLISH and the FRENCH to deal with and as a way incorporate themselves within an idea that LE CANADIEN and LES CANADIENS yearned for.. ie..
: CANADA* ( be it , for France , as a way to remind LE CANADIEN that he rooted from it`s bosom.., )or for that matter the ENGLISH who needed a language entry point within the myths and the experience of what was the largest of the CANADA population for many of years.., before the added migration was in effect put into practise as a way to dilute ..,the population of LES CANADIENS.., for political pragmatic beginnings and ends...

The population accounting approaches must take in the existence of French language speakers ..,who due to having been gradually cut of from the `motherland `.. ie..,in this I refer to what became of the NOUVELLE FRANCE and CANADA`s earlier construction .., to then be followed by what was eventually attempted by the BRITISH ..*.. ( indeed , the transformative nature of a nation.., I would submit..,that of the CANADA of old..,now factored in the CANADA that wants to be.., ( 21st CENTURY BOUND and all )..

Thus what I would caution you in, would be the population comparison that you make ..as per the percentage of the population within the now province of Quebec.. that houses.. only part of what was this transformation of the French settler..,becoming UN CANADIEN*...

Therefore one must factor in the other CANADIENS*... who though harder to bring out in the open.., have indeed settled and are accountable.- especially in this 21 Century bound CANADA.., - ( in the field of EDUCATION itself.., there is across this land , not only the IMMERSION PROGRAM.., but of course the emergence of the ... FRENCH SCHOOL AUTHORITIES.. , alive and well , in all of the provinces of this country..*.., ) (though some would say that getting this established was like going to the dentist.., - there is a case to be made that the CANADA now under construction has taking steps to incorporate the earlier Canada ( note I did not limit my description to the province of Quebec.. but rather spoke of the country as a whole.., ) for indeed that particular FRANCOPHONE SCHOOL AUTHORITY appearance in all provinces of Canada.., rather depicts well the willingness of the modern population of Canada to incorporate.. the very earliest of CANADA ROOTS...,

( thus paying homage to the existence of UN CANADIEN or rather LES CANADIENS that resided outside also of the now majority populated province of QUEBEC.. itself..) ,For it is clear that those that call themselves.., QUÉBÉCOIS.. are but in reality, de facto inheritors and a direct consequence and offshoot of what LE CANADIEN sought and was at the earliest of settlement attempts .., in this vast land *..)

Just some observations that I would like to get your comments on *..

To Gwest ..., as per subjects of negotiations .., me thinks you hit the nail right on the head.., for indeed the political class of CANADA.. has to attempt to arrive at - that great canadian ( and I would add CANADIEN* memory COMPROMISE )..,

We`ve arrived , as Maestro suggested ,at a point of negotiation that leaves very little room for manoeuvering .. and yet as I said before the PEOPLE OF CANADA have spoken time and time again...that they are seeking for an accomodation , a compromise.., hence.., the evolving negotiations.., that makes a country what it becomes eventually.., with all of the imperfections that flows from the human imperfection of those that actually create not only the process but the conditions of negotiation itself.*..

Saw a fascinating hint at this attempt in the film.., ALL THE KING`S MEN.., which depicts .., as Maestro would have it.., an attempt at getting at a people`s politician that would dare to VOICE.. the language of the common folk..*..,

THE PEOPLE , as we all know.. rarely get to speak their voices*.. , or even get to hear the voices that they experience..*.., for want of a lack of
communications opportunities..,

THUS MY HAT OF TO THE TYEE.., IN PROVIDING FOR A PEOPLE`S FORUM*..

Murdoch writes..

You should get real!! We are so owned by the Americans, Quebec separation would simply seal the ownership. There is no way that even Alberta can deliver a slap with a feather.

Back again, work is backing up...but Uno Momento to again discuss a very interesting topic.

It may be useful to start with a premise that we are not very different,in fact, very much the same whether it be as individuals, or groups of individiuals ie quasi -nations in various shapes and forms.

We often associate on the basis of like minds, or comrarderie, ethnic or religious backgrounds, but often under the umbrella of strength in numbers ..some sort of quasi -survival in a quasi primal - mode.

Much of this Quebec topic is a version of the basic laws of nature ie such as poli-physics.

As I stated earlier, a group of people with a common bond ie Francophones arrived. Once a critical mass was established then usually, historically, some form of less chaotic society evolves ie "a formally structured organized civilization" ie Gov't.

This is much like a seed and this "early primal Gov't " can keep growing and evolving from the seed..ie a fort, a settlement , a town , a city...to many cities, ...to provinces / states to countries.

The Quebec issue is not really unique..it could simply be Culture X or Group Y. They stuck together as a classic defence mechanism. They did not take the fork in the road and say we can be "separate" to start ... to evolve from 2 or more NON Hermit francophones,but to begin to become a critical mass then to establish the seeds of some sort of "Gov't".

"Quebec" seed instead chose the path after seeding to NOT be separate and NOT be distinct at the START, they did not chose THAT fork in the many roads of choice as to their future.

They(Quebec) apparently did not feel secure at the time to go it alone..but instead MERGED with ANOTHER group that would assist them in their " Francophone " survival and as has been discussed earlier with various things like the "Quebec Acts" etc.etc.

AKA....Think survivial and inability and/or lack of confidence to establish their own totally separate and autonomus COUNTRY.

The problem is...they continually threaten to do this NOW ...several hundred years later.
Do they actually "own" Quebec..or do they for all intents and purposes rent it from Canada...( I say that as a point of reference open to debate/discussion.)

They had a choice..NOW its a done deal..PERIOD!!!

Quebec "can't have their cake and eat it too" (French irony)..ie Can't JOIN Canada when its convenient..and then LEAVE Canada when its convenient as either a hostage threat...when perhaps they have no leg to stand on.

Quebec was perhaps "quasi- purchased" one way or another , much like Alaska was also acquired by the U.S. in its own negotiated way.

This nobody truly owns...."we all rent" ... this premise may apply to all of us in a given country..like a strata model for Gov't,...unless a war changes the country ....or unanimity for change or.. a Canada -wide majority vote.

That goes back to my earlier premise..Quebec separates if WE let THEM,and NOT they tell us. aka they need our permission, and not the contrary?!

Simply a bluff with not even a gun ?

Hey, G West, if you have a comment fine - then make it. Otherwise keep your snide and nasty presumptions to yourself. When you say that I, "might not like it", you're wrong buddy. I explained the situation as I see it and made no speculation as to whether I like it or otherwise. I described it as I perceive it and whatever you mean by "misrepresents" is baloney! As for your supposition that I have a prejudice; explain that. Your reference to shoving something into France's face before is another falsehood. I was reporting and commenting on a well considered contrarian statement from a student during a protest. Your cute remark about a possible mademoiselle is also childish claptrap. I have close French speaking relatives, in my happy bi-lingual family, here in BC, in Quebec and in France. Go for a walk.

Realisticman:

Good points:

(I 've had to review a big whack of blogs on this discussion and the interactve responses).

I agree with much of your comments and the various facts you present..ie the vivid recollectiion I have of Quebec's past demands such as the set amount of MP seats(ie 25 % of the total)....regardless IF Quebec's population declines.

I feel the average Jacques or Jeanne in Quebec probably isn't really a hard core separatist. However, if they give up the keys to the car, their politicians will take charge in these Federal vs Provincial pissing matches.

Like most Wars, etc., I think its the inability ,incompetence and the corruption of the leadership at the top to resolve issues that leads to these types of bloody or bloodless showdowns.

As you say, the Quebec birthrate is declining, and the normal way Federal Ridings are created is based on POPULATION . ...correct? If a population shrinks, should this not result in less MP's ?

Quebec leaders are of an old guard generation that likley saw very reliable projections of decline...hence less votes. hence less power...to a point of minority status. They dread this .

(Of course ....they would hide this little scam for 25 % of seats as "a possibility " that the population may increase and they would then OF COURSE favour the old model that would give them more seats ).

"Nice try" though.

I agree that there is likley an old guard at BOTH the FED and the Quebec Provincial level that have been in bed too long, this is simply an old mutually -beneficial symbiotic game played the last few decades...and the last gasps of the dice roll are forthcoming. Being politicans and lawmakers is their only symbiotic defence, which is to formally establish this via laws, accords agreements.

We think,... or are told,.. "Canada is saved...again "..when in fact the old corrupt status -quo is the only thing saved .

I vividly recall RAFE discussing this scam on his radio shows, he hit the nail RIGHT on the head..this was another Federal "kiss Quebec ass" deal...just with more quick drying cement. Simply the old quickie way to grab power formula for future Federal Gov'ts..it was in THEIR hands ..rememeber, why ELSE allow such deals?

Hopefully in a generation or so, REALITY hits, the old political guard is gone, and Quebec quits fighting the tide and QUEBEC is absorbed into the rest of Canada SMOOTHLY and SEEMLESSLY .

The past ie the Quebec Act was , or should be a foundation for the ever -evolving future , not the set -in -stone prison walls for both them(Quebec) OR us(Rest of Canada).

Everything in the rest of the world evolves...its time they(Quebec) got out of the basement suite and "caught up and grew up "and move into the Living Room called the rest of Canada, and break bread with the rest of their Canadian " mongrel" Cousins...(and maybe even get their MLB baseball team back!!!)

In parallel , Maestro .., BRITISH COLUMBIA.., - as to it`s earliest seeds planted within the COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT itself..,- found that standing one`s ground was near impossible , after having inhabited such an interesting territory for some .., 1812 actually,to 1846 or thereabouts.., time frame*..

Their challenge.., or survival strategy including the form of government that they gave themselves.., was indeed unique in and of itself.., and seemed to be SEEDED by the oldest of the charted companies in the world ...and yet curiously the CANADA of OLD , I speak of was very much in evidence by the Settlers , for the most part having their ROOTS very deep in the CANADA of their dreams ...

THUS FROM WHAT I`VE BEEN ABLE TO GATHER , THE TERRITORY AND THE VERY IDEA OF A `BRITISH COLUMBIA` DREAM HAD TO EVENTUALLY BE ABANDONED.*.., as the settlement established on the COLUMBIA RIVER shores was indeed a very significant beginning of GOVERNMENT itself.., ( though clearly an instrument of commerce for the EMPIRE , as well)...

Thus , the `seeds`.., to this very day, or memories thereof and therein.., lost to the western winds of change*.., in this part of the emerging and budding CANADA of old*..,

For the strategy , as devised by the British , ( through the BNA ACT.., was to defend , as a last post .., the NEW ENGLAND dream itself..which had gone awry for them. )

Henceforth , and very gradually , the territory was gradually seceded ( now that`s a close seed isn`t it )..., and what was left eventually , was what came to be known as a new beginning ...,
THE BRITISH COLUMBIA we know of today..,reminder , and a vestige really of what could have been ! ...in the WEST.

( For indeed.., the territory that today encompasses part of California , State of Oregon, Washington , Montana and Idaho.., ( including what the territory we now call British Columbia was called then .) was indeed a very fertile and promising land - not only for the very rewarding fur trade of that period.., but as history will later tell us.., gold.., and fertile soil and abundant rivers etc.. were to become the attractive features of that LAND..,

( continued in the next post )

( continued from the post above )

( [/B]the Columbia Department )*.., offered to the BRITISH a new beginning in North America .. if and only if they could hold on to it`s vast territory . And we know the rest. .., all that remains of such a vast domain , is the BRITISH COLUMBIA province .., ( territory ) that eventually saw it`s future within the NEW CANADA that was being negotiated at the time*...

Comparable in promise , though much younger by some ..say 200 YEARS .., give or take a few decades on either side of this benchmark..* Simply guessing the time intervals., at this moment of writing.. but one thing is certain .., THE WEST came much later then settlement developments in the EAST..*.., ( IF WE IGNORE THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS ,- which we did - for the most part*..) Thus bringing us full circle as to your observations Maestro ,as to a description that explains away how governments , (settlements ), usually evolve to become political entities.. such as countries and their components such as ,and yes!, villages, cities , provinces and countries.., to name but a few *.., cause South of us they use different terms to describe the same process you`ve identified.., as per the HUMAN SETTLEMENT DEVELOPMENTS process and nomenclature.

Why do I mention British Columbia and that COLUMBIA DEPARTMENT ? And the Hudson Bay`s role in establishing the very beginnings of law and order .. along with beginnings of `good` government ?

Well , it`s to parallel historical events that eventually comes together and gradually was to shape the CANADA we call our very own today*..

Of course the First Nations, experienced the resulting attempts at , and resulting harvest of EUROPEANS having planted their seeds in NORTH AMERICA*...

The rest is History.. ( as you like to say)., and as with the rivers and the streams of a land goes.., so does the seeds.., with the winds of change.., once again upon us[B] .. , in a 21st CENTURY unfolding before our very eyes*.

Are we ready for the momentous changes that this century offers...? Will we ,in time , be able to reach an agreement and a compromise that will guarantee our success story ? For indeed , we have succeeded to this very day in harnessing all the transformations and change that has emerged.., [B]we simply now need to get to that memory void I keep referring to.., and get our NARRATIVE down so clear, that - as clear as the streams can be found in the last of our natural refuges , we can in the NORTH find our compass and bearing *.., for a 21st Century journey.

I see the sun is setting outside and it is time for me to go take a walk in NATURE .., ( offering up - always- some to the wisdom and yes , memories that it has of settlements and peoples coming and going..,

Indeed one particular tree..., looks in wonder at the folly of men, woman and children that cannot recognise it`s language .. ( and wonderfull healing intentions and dimentions )...,

So , though the Sun did set on the British Empire .., Once upon a time..,it is now ,time , for all , within canada , to realise our good fortunes to have such bounty of nature to enjoy..., now it`s NATURE`S turn to have a go at this question called CANADA

realisticman,
Obviously, I disagree and I have a good memory. I know exactly where you're coming from and the way you reacted to being called on it pretty much confirms the accuracy of my observation.

I think you were doing a lot more editorializing than you might like to admit - nothing wrong with that - even if I disagree.

Have a nice day.

And woody, guess you're still working. I'm done for the day. Sorry you're not too.

G WEST
I posted this a while back., (anarcho , I hate to disappoint you, but, both of my folks came from Quebec, along with a large contingent of sons and daughters)
This relocation took place some 80-90 years ago, since arriving this family has assimilated with people of many races, the culture diversity in this family is both very broad and rich. The same has probably evolved for most other French Canadian people that came west.
These people who came west were searching for a change and new lives and many if not most have assimilated very well, if this was not their intentions, they would then have stayed in Quebec.
I haven’t any cultural ties to Quebec and I would safely predict that the other 70-80% of the French Canadians here from Quebec feel and think the same.
realisticman thanks for the refresher on the Meech Lake Accord, I’ve forgot just how far off the wall that proposal was.
It would have been a more fitting title if named “The Total Domination of Canada by Quebec”
Several times on this thread I’ve read that the Quebec population is on the decline or that as the old guard fades away that Quebec demands will diminish , I don’t agree with this assertion , more and more french is showing up on labels etc, you phone back east and the person on the end has such a heavy french accent sometimes you feel you may have mis-dialed and called France.
Watch Question period on CPAC its spoken 90% in french, so now you have to rely on an interpreter who’s on perpetual piss break as he- she always kicks in half way through the discussion , not sure what the talker said so you get da- da- da- da -man- he- he- he kicked da-da dog ,sohegohome, and this is not bull sh!t that’s how it is, so now I don’t watch question period any more, maybe this is all part of a plan, discourage those that speak only English not to participate so that the next time they want to sneak sh!t through for Quebec than English Canada as were so referred to by the Quebeckers will be none the wiser, until you wake up one morning and your corn flakes box will no longer have English written on one side but will be written only in Quebec french, your chev out side will become a Renault, in place of your country music on your radio instead it will be continuous Fra-a- Jock-ka only , and for you English Canada people, French Fries imported from Quebec for breakfast, lunch and dinner

Woody,
So. Because your family left Quebec 90 years ago to settle in Mallardville - or some such place - you're still an expert on what's happening there today.

Pardon me if I take your views with a large dose of salt. French Immersion schools are growing faster than any other public education option in BC because parents see the 'value' of their children learning to speak another language and establishing a cultural connection with one of Canada's founding peoples.

You may think you're being funny. I don't.

I loved the time I worked and lived in Quebec - loved the culture, the language, the music - just wish there was more here to compete with what I had in Montreal.

I'm sorry you feel so negative about your own heritage...it's a shame.

it's been a long day my friend, I'm outta here - au revoir!

One part of the equation of the Quebec issue:

The Federal Liberals in the past had a policy of alternating a Francophone and an Anglophone Prime Minister.

Why?

Proportionally they should have had a Francophone at most one out of every 3 P.M's . Realisitically , even less so. Simple tokenism and a slap in the face to the rest of Canada's multi cultural mosaic. This inevitably lessened the pool of available candidates, and deprived others possibly far more capable and worthy.

Trudeau seemed to be the the initial culprit...notice of course his name wasn't Schmidt, or Chang,..or Goldberg,...or....Chavez....or

Trudeau "the nationalist" was of course "one of theirs " in his Superman persona to save Canada and fight off the separatists.

That's the way the game is played...simply spare the important points and details , but lather on the rest.

Re French Immersion:

Speaking from experience...much of the French Immerion(FI) programs popularity is that it is one avenue to allow one's children avoid the ESL program.

Most French Immersion students are fluent in English, hence they all start on relatively equal footing in a new language.

Many English -fluent parents feel ESL classes affect their equally English -fluent childrens progress and that their children will not be given propper attention, as the teaching staff will spend more time with the ESL students. Thus, their main option is to enroll in FI.

That's one main reason for its popularity. There are, however, many problems with French Immersion, but that's a topic for another day.

G West says

My heritage, isn’t Quebec, its France, Quebec was just a lay over for the main trip west.
Mallardville , do really think every one from Quebec ended up in Mallardville, speaking of Mallardville Ill bet you couldn’t find enough french men there today to fill a Renault C-Dan, sort of blows your french culture theory out the window, don’t Wester.

This may be happening in the upper crust areas Wester , but not in the meat and potatoes areas, where Joe lunch bucket lives, this I know.

Overall, woody, French Immersion is growing faster - too bad for the lunch bucket brigade is all I can say.

I used to know quite a few people who grew up speaking French in Maillardville (sorry about the spelling last time) - they were lovely people. I worked with them at Fraser Mills while I was going to university - pulling on the green chain - so I know all about lunch buckets woody - I wouldn't ever sell them short. One of my colleagues there is now a doctor - we used to have sugar pie at his mere's place on Sundays.

The French culture I was writing about was in Quebec woody - pretty tough to survive out here where most of the maudit Anglais treated the peasoups like merde.

It's still there, in Quebec, and it's thriving. I'm sorry you feel so negatif about your heritage - French, Quebecois - whatever.

You're not such a bad guy woody.

Just returned from my contractual duties*...,

Interesting discussion around MAILLARDVILLE*.., a subject matter that I`ve researched and am very familiar with*..

( one of those RESEARCH AND DISCOVERY field experience that yielded much material on the very nature of both this province and CANADA as a whole *..)

As a matter of having become a CANADIAN and `CANADIEN` transplantation project...* ( for during what the historians called .. the yellow peril*, which depicted very clearly the fears and at times irrational behaviors within certain segments of the British Columbia population.., there became for the lumber barons of the day.., and for the political class as well , a need for the beginnings of a solution to the SOCIAL UNREST that was becoming more and more detrimental to the ..., (*Business as usual conditions that helps all who have invested , reap the rewards of a solid social fabric .., that can supply the workers and the consumers to purchase the manufactured products of the MANUFACTURING PLANTS*.. )

And so it was.., that one of the most fascinating experiment was to be attempted.., (* by transplanting one work force who lived inside and yet felt outside of the Province of British Columbia at the same time ( now that`s one great puzzle and riddle isn`t it ) .., REPLACING THAT ONE AVAILABLE WORK FORCE.., with another that could be recruited .. in the OTTAWA,HULL SHERBROOKE , MONTREAL area..., indeed with the OBLATES serving as the agents of the then , close to being , largest lumber mill in the BRITISH EMPIRE..( if not the largest in the world ) , there began a recruitment effort that lasted a good part of 1908 , to see arrive on our shores..- actually by train in 1909 - the descendants of LES CANADIENS*.., having been given guarantees (* that the lumber company lived up to..,this was business after all).., and so a great CANADIAN and `CANADIEN` experiment was to see it`s
progress within the most distant Province of CANADA *.. , a part of CANADA taking root at the turn of the century ..., as was the existence of the VOYAGEURS and COURREURS DE BOIS who preceeded them .., while visiting here*.

The unfolding years of that particular SETTLEMENT .. would etch ,- within the local collective psyche -certain irrefutable factors , that would in time reveal the true nature of what it means to be living in a country , in search of it`s identity*...

Indeed the abstract existence of that particular community (MAILLARDVILLE).., does as much for that population as the `state of mind `..(* ÉTAT D`ÂME )existence of one other community in the furthest EASTERN sector of this COUNTRY..,

I`m speaking of L`ACADIE and how the ACADIANS fared... ( LES ACADIENS as they were called close to the homeland.., and called CAJUNS at the furthest distance of the region and land they called HOME..).. and so ,
MAILLARDVILLE , in many ways , as a SETTLEMENT that had to survive in the best way it could ..., surrounded by a sea of different languages , that invariably was to impact on their very identity*..

And so , much like how the Acadians LEARNED TO MAKE DO WITH THE CONDITIONS THAT DESTINY HANDED TO THEM... so was the accommodation and the joys and hardships of that particular community..* IN WHICH , ALL THE WHILE REPRESENTING A PART OF CANADA THAT WAS VERY FAR FROM OUR ( BRITISH COLUMBIA`s ) EXPERIENCE..,THEY ..,
( RESIDENTS OF MAILLARDVILLE and THE POPULATION OF THIS PROVINCE gradually learned from each other and also learned to live with each other .., in an epic tale of exploration and discovery..,
in learning deeply about a certain CANADA that was under construction , if you will*..,

and so.., to this very day.., in that particular community , which is understood to be part of the City of Coquitlam and at other times thought to exist beyond those boundaries....., we have a renaissance underway.., as both , what remains of that particular `village`.. and the CITY along with this PROVINCE and CANADA itself.., finally taking steps to recognise it`s contribution and existence within our local provincial heritage...

A PART OF CANADA THAT WAS TRANSPLANTED OUT WEST AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY AND WAS TO SERVE EVENTUALLY AS A REMINDER OF THAT OTHER CANADA OVER THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS*...

AND SO , AS DID THE VOYAGEURS AND COURREURS DE BOIS BEFORE THEM.., THEY WERE TO LEAVE A SIGNATURE AND A FOOTPRINT.., ON OUR SHORES.., indeed in this case , as with the fur traders ..,
footprints , that was to mark our sense of place , sense of belonging and sense of identity*,.

THEIRS.. ( MAILLARDVILLE ) IS A STORY OF A SETTLEMENT , - AN EPIC TALE - REALLY, OF NOT ONLY SURVIVAL BUT TO THIS VERY DAY.., IDENTITY*, RESPECT AND A SPIRIT OF HUMANITY*..( and so Gwest I concur with your observations for I also had the good fortune of getting to know some of it`s residents.. ( all found and at times lost in the collective memory of our distant shores..)..

Such is the story of a small community , such is the links to Canada that expands our understanding of this vast country! A NARRATIVE that needs to be told.., and a story made in BRITISH COLUMBIA at that !

G West many bureaucrats some how assume that if one has a French surname, or if he-she speaks French( which many here in B.C. don’t, never did or no longer do) that he-she automatically has an alliance with Quebec, then of course these false numbers are lumped in with those who claim to be bonafide French Canadian or Québécois which in turn results in inflated numbers not at all reflecting on the true numbers, to what can only be described as the French Canadian or Québécois, as most like to title themselves, quite frankly the number of French are not near as high as the French bureaucrats are perceiving them to be, not by a far cry. Their numbers are skewed, without a doubt.
In regards to French Immersion the single driving force behind this is the threat of not being able to attain or secure federal government employment if not bilingual, if this is not black mail then what is.
One final comment you stated “I'm sorry you feel so negatif about your heritage” this very same attitude in regards to Heritage is what got our Japanese Canadian into difficulties during the war, Those sh!t head bureaucrats probably in Hull, decided that due to their supposed “Japanese heritage” that they would side with Japan, do you not see the stupid mentality now about this heritage, culture crap, that so many people bandy about when talking about Quebec and associating, me and a whole gaggle of persons of French origin who don’t want Jack Sh!t to do with these people. They (Quebeckers)are concerned only for themselves, no one else, they have made this abundantly clear.

Yes,the Maillardville story is an interesting one...the need for mill workers and the expertise acquired from Eastern Canada.

Much like the Japanese who came to BC, apparently from some key Japanese coastal villages with much fishing expertise.

Its rarely random and disconnected, often much of this new world migration to a new country and within a new country fills a void created by a vacuum of needs at the time....much again like the CPR and the Chinese labourers.

Always interesting re: the variables of the reasons, the needs, the overall evolution, and how the Old World roots mix and blend with the New World's growing pains.

The physical laws would claim dilution of the old and the creation of an evolving "NEW" either due to dilution and/or a new country on its own path.

However, the hyphenated ie_______- Canadian often encouraged by Gov't in my view is not so much benevolency of a coddling Mother Gov't, its simply to divide and conquer so that silence is maintained and voting blocks sequestered. It often ends up as "sand in the evolutionary gears of nation hood " and bypasses what might have occurred otherwise(is this another facetious defintion of Gov't )

BS ?

No....we had a Federal Liberal candidate nomination meeting recently which I attended simply out of curiousity( ie not as a voting member). I estimated approx. 300-400 people there.

It was very clear that my own European rooted background was literally non- existent at this Liberal nomination meeting....maybe 10 people out of the 3-400 there.

The two Liberal candidates had their citizen support apparently split via fairly distinct ethnic lines. Candidate "X" has the majority backing of the East Indian community, and Candidate "Y" had the majority backing of the Asian community.

Personally I think both of them are useless, based on boogeyman - itis and cheap shallow poli- catering. I think that they are very representative the current "way of doing business" status of the ex Federal Liberal Gov't, which is well rooted in the Quebec issue like a Garden of Eden. ie cater to a mega -minority...anyone opposed is a racist or prejudiced ....or anti- this ...or anti- that and back to the survival mode I discussed earlier.

FORMULA : = Create an imagined threat, then play Superman Saviour. Much like the plot of the movie " V is for Vendetta"....create a problem that didn't exist before...no one knows you created it, but you come riding in like a white knight with a cure, and LOOK like a hero vs the villain you REALLY are. Icing on the cake is that while the hero's welcome for "saviour" Gov't occurs you have insidiously sequestered power in Machiavellian fashion by creating a state intolerant of questions or dissent...claiming to do so "in everyones best interests".

In the end "everyone's" best interest ends up in NO ONES best interests, another great political trick ie WHO "IS" EVERYONE??

Is that the "new and future" Canada ....? or are there changes in the winds forthcoming ?

Woody:

Good comments:

I think much of the problem is letting these politicians and bureaucrats get away with there own biases, stereotypes and perceptions ie that they "think" they "know" how we think....yet never ask us..thus make it up in the "propoganda meets fostering of agenda/s" battles.

Like I said I think the average Canadian gets along well with other average Canadians...much like politicians create the "wars", and not the countries' citizens.

(How many war stories has one heard of truces called at Christmas and soldiers on both sides singing in combined choruses, etc.?)

Like the saying goes...Gov't should fear its people..NOT the people fear their Gov't...and mainly because the Gov't is SUPPOSED to be US the people...not "THEM" = the hired and elected help.

Not all dictators or dictatorships are very obvious, but instead many of them is very very subtle, even within a democracy.

I agree, ones' name and origin are NOT synonymous with "100% loyalty to the motherland"....but this is the Gov't Ltd ie the politicians and bureaucrats, who play this race and ethnic card for cheap shallow purposes worse than OJ's Johnny Cochrane ever dreamed of.

One should be very proud of one's roots, its also an individual thing,... but others shouldn't make silly stereotypes beyond that.

woody,
I think you're missing my point. All Canadians should be proud of the fact that we don't have an exclusively Anglo-Saxon heritage. We should also be proud of and celebrate the other 'nation' that still exists in an identifiable way - First Nations.

I'm not trying to put you or your ideas down - I loved the years I lived in Quebec and I know a lot of French Canadians who love western Canada. I'm no supporter of bureaucratic nightmares either – by the way, a lot of parents in my kids'
French Immersion classes were Chinese and East Indian.

I don't really care why people do it, the fact that one learns about other cultures and picks up a language and marketable skills is a positive for everyone. It means we have a better -educated and more tolerant society, in my view.

You're putting down Quebec people, just like you tried to put me down because you thought I didn't know anything about hard work. Not nice, not necessary and not true.

Too bad you're so insecure, my friend.

Fascinating offshoots ! ...,indeed what I hear from Woodie ,and then Gwest in their diametrically opposed stance on the very nature and roots of this country..*.. Indeed , it is fascinating to me to glimpse at the DIALOG expressed here.. , for it provides the pieces to the CANADA , riddle , puzzle and enigma that we`ve inherited..*..,

For indeed..,the language issues.. such as the imagined fears of QUEBEC actually dominating Canada itself..,from a population base ,ever diminishing , as many on this post have provided irrefutable evidence thereof..., brings me to certain reflections of a `micro Canada ` , if you will, set in our very own backyard.. ( BRITISH COLUMBIA).., for indeed NO , there is no danger of QUEBEC ever dominating CANADA as you fear.., it simply isn`t in the cards..,

and I applaud Gwest`s defence of what really is a struggle and an eventual
accommodation approach and compromise..,that will get us further as a country then the expressed fears that woodie communicates..- though I am certain he is sincere in his thoughts.., ( though unfounded , very real to his experience and mind , I fear )

But not all is lost ,, in our world of STRANGERS IN A STRANGE LAND.,. as we hear out each others thoughts and yes fears.. for they are a product of each of our individual experiences , and will not be denied..,

Let us take the experience of MAILLARDVILLE.. as a case in point , and let us ponder it`s experience as a settlement , as a community and as an entity.. ( that to this day is dealing with issues that are clearly CANADIAN and CANADIEN related.., )

And this particular - let`s call it study area- , or better yet , a sort of ARCHEOLOGICAL DIG*.., ( and yes folks,I speak of that very settlement that was mentioned in the recent post.., : )
actually ,in creating this scaled down model of Canada , as a metaphor for what is actualy happening in the REAL LIFE , AND REALPOLITIC CANADA might serve a purpose in our discussions.., for this HUMAN SETTLEMENT this potential reason for a territorial puzzle of our very own.. could be attributed to a village.. that was ,and could not be*..

Hence , the territory , known as SCHOOL DISTRICT 43.., in and of itself framing the epic tale .., of a transplanting of a workforce and in filling that particular need.., of displacing one - let us say -lower paid workforce with another , was indeed how things were done in those days..

Anyway , a resulting settlement was the impetus for what became of some fascinating jurisdictional accomodation.. for THE MUNICIPALITY OF COQUITLAM itself.., which incorporated in 1891 ..,to then filed for a new incorporation in 1912*... indeed , after the arrival of this new work force*/settlement *...,

Now why do I say this `canada transplanting of a workforce `offers up a glimpse of our construct .. .as per the on going building of the POST 1867 CANADA under construction ?,,

(continued in the next post )

Well it has to do with the political dynamics of `dealing with the unknown element that had been introduced by that simple act of bringing a new ingredient in the PROVINCIAL IDENTITY EQUATION of the day...,

One must recall the events of 1885 ,as a backdrop and very close to home ,in a neighboring province to be.., indeed , MANITOBA`s very unique history , would perhaps explain away why we have - in Canada- such difficulty in visiting the past*..

It`s not that these historical moments weren`t monumental in their consequence , but simply ,it`s because we do not yet know how to digest the `psychic` reverberations of such profound events*...

And so , as I was saying.., only a few decades beyond the LOUIS RIEL AFFAIR..,does one company , think up a solution for what the historian`s in this province called THE YELLOW PERIL*.., ( I do not need to expand on these events , for they are well documented and one simply needs to visit the archives ,in the libraries..)..

Indeed., during these decades, a settlement was encouraged - actually- created for ECONOMIC GAINS AND REASONS that all industrial captains understand very well.. ( if one does not have a workforce to fabricate whatever product one intends to get to market ..then one does not have a business leg to stand on )..

AND SO IT WAS ..,WITH THIS `CANADIEN` LABOUR TRANSPLANTING SOLUTION..,IN RESPONSE TO BOTH SOCIAL UNREST ITSELF.,AND IN GUARANTEEING FOR GENERATIONS TO COME EMPLOYMENT TO A PARTICULAR GROUP , OF CANADA`S POPULATION.., ( but not just any group, for they were considered loyal, submissal to authority and people who were content with their lot and fate.., including their faith )..indeed the very elements that permitted the OBLATES to journey in the OTTAWA VALLEY.., hull , sherbrooke and as far as Montréal.. all the while tapping into the NETWORK ,that was the CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE DAY..., and the rest is history*...,

For indeed in that simple and yet very daring gambit for a replacement workforce.., that particular lumber mill, was to bring to the very BRITISH COLUMBIA .., a part of CANADA.. that was only preceeded by the legacies and the role that the Courreur de Bois and Voyageurs played ..in the settlement of this province..,in it`s earliest of days..*

Thus , the existence of this particular french speaking settler of the fur trade , was clearly here in the earliest beginnings of the EUROPEAN presence in these territories..,

HENCE ,WHAT WAS TO FOLLOW , IN THE 1900`S WAS THE ARRIVAL OF ANOTHER WAVE OF AND DESCENDANTS OF `LES CANADIENS`.. ARRIVING NOW TO PLAY A ROLE, NOT ONLY IN THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OF THIS PROVINCE.. BUT ALSO BE PART OF SOME EPIC BATTLES.., (ECONOMIC ONES IN A 1931 STRIKE..,WHICH HAD REPERCUSSIONS IN THE NORTH AMERICAN MINDSET..).. AND also played a key role in the PUBLIC versus INDEPENDENT SCHOOL rights.. , when it came to religion matters..,

( and so, I am pleased that very local history now.., the kind we can , in this province , attest to , and study for our very own understanding of the CANADA we`ve , not only inherited , but experienced..),.

Once again ,sorry for the lenghty backgrounder to a story that I feel is worthy of being cognisant of.

Now as to Maestro`s observations of .. WE THE GOVERNMENT ..= to WE THE PEOPLE.., or for that matter..., as is experienced by the population south of us.., how the democratic deficit is in reality experienced....,

The film Vendetta , by the way , a fascinating poetic hyperbole ,demonstrating an EPIC struggle of the masses vis a vis a corrupted government gone completely awry .. off track..*..thus the epic ending..,with fireworks and all.., ( I especially found fascinating the wearing of the MASKS...,by all ,who protested .. though I am not convinced that this would ever happen but in a science fiction like story such as that one communicated..«*.. ) Nevertheless in it`s grandiose way.., managed to communicate a message.. that indeed the power does reside in the PEOPLE`S will and hands.., ( if only and only whenthey become aware of that potential .., and I do not use that word lightly.., potential is all their is.., people are too occupied and busy with their day to day lives.., to ever manifest the kind of scenario that this particular narrative entertained.., ) BUT WHO KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE WILL OFFER?

And taking in Jane Jacobs early warning sign of a deteriorating condition in the world today .,one has to wonder ,of how MEMORIES could deteriorate to the degree that we are experiencing around the world today..,

PEOPLE OF ALL STRIPES..,FORGETTING THAT THEIR FORGETTING.., AND EVEN MORE DISTURBING ..FORGETTING THAT THEY`VE FORGOTTEN ALTOGETHER *... perhaps closer to why we have the GOVERNMENTS that we have ..,in this day and age..,

For let us never forget that GOVERNMENTS are a product of participation by the respective populations that are governed .. hence EDUCATION and MEMORY OF ONE`S SENSE OF PLACE , ONE`S SENSE OF BELONGING AND SENSE OF IDENTITY.. to that particular construct , I would contend, are some of the building blocks of the country`s of the future..,( including a 21st CENTURY CANADA , still under construction.., with at least now.., the blueprints safely repatriated , so that we can get on with the CONSTRUCTION that needs doing*... and much like in the days of old.., practiced in a work bee.., we have a country to build , ladies and gentleman.. so let`s get on with it! ..

G West said

I don’t think I put down the Quebec people, but then you’re entitled to your opinion, just because someone states that don’t want to be affiliated with a certain group, that in its self is not expressing a dislike for that particular group.
Are so thin skinned that my little swipe about you not working offended you, I think not, but, I would put up a good bet that you haven’t broke a good sweat on the job for 15-20 years now, correct.
In regards to your remark about me being insecure, your way out in left field on that one my learned friend. I ve had too many life experiences to be insecure at this juncture.

Village said

I speak from personal experiences on this subject matter.
Could you elaborate on your “I fear” comment ? Ill be away for a couple of hrs, ( this should give G West ample time to doctor up a story)

No woody, you haven't got a clue - I'll wager I break a sweat far oftener than you do and have for years. And, go back to what you posted about Quebec (you said you'd even posted it earlier and were just copying and pasting) and tell me you weren't being negative and critical about them. Why lie about it?

G West rather than prove out that one is lying or wrong, your resolve is to simply accuse some one that they have insulted the whole town or they just insulted all the such and such people, I would guess the purpose of your strategy is to cause a deflection in order to try and blind side the other party, a distraction, than you go for a nice soft kick in the nuts, that’s your ploy, I’ve seen it with others and to myself by you in past discussions.
Not once do I recall you making a comment against the separatist in Quebec, on this thread, but rather you said
[I loved the time I worked and lived in Quebec - loved the culture, the language, the music - just wish there was more here to compete with what I had in Montreal.]
There’s that word again culture, used so freely but never really described, What we have no culture , no music, no language here in BC , that’s what your saying to the citizens of BC that we don’t have it. Good on you G West.

This is what you wrote:

In my view I don't have to slam you with anything other than your own maladroit attitude. Your own words condemn you far more thoroughly than anything I could write.

I think much of BC culture is watered down US pap - Do you think it's any different?

I'm not saying anything to the people of BC except that it is neither fair nor sensible to demonize Quebecers, or anyone else for that matter.

You don't seem to share that attitude.

Too bad.

I do love Quebec. I think it belongs in the Canada I also love.

I'm not sure you do though.

G west will you get off the pot and quit playing ring around the rosary, now try to specific and show me where I have stated some thing that is a lie or false, You can’t, because what I have stated is truth and that cannot be disputed, it pisses guys like you off, I know this, that’s why you have to dig into the little cracks in order to dig out little imaginary pieces of dirt e.g. you said,

Be specific,don’t just let it hang there.
You don’t consider the possible break up or holding the country hostage as demonizing , Im of the opinion that no matter what Quebec says or does to Canada, your sympathetic to their cause, aren’t you?

I’ve taken a page out of their book on this one, my province B.C. comes first than Canada
Oh incidently I have an "Honorable Discharge Certificate" for having served in the Canadian army do you happen to have one?

THAT!

It's utter nonsense and you know it.

Did I ever say I didn't love BC too?

No.

I'm sympathetic to anyone's cause that isn't a hater. I dislike people who categorize others; whose opinions are valued because of who they are or what they do. In my view, that's prejudice of the worst kind and I think you are guilty of it. Earlier you tried to dump on me because you said I didn't know anything about hard work, had never worked up a sweat, and now you're implying that one has to be a veteran to earn your respect. Crap!

That's just Baloney, one earns respect because of what you are and what you believe, how you treat your fellow men and women and not because you're a member of the lunch-bucket brigade or because you took the Queen's shilling for a year or three. You ought to know better.

If you want to go through life as a bitter old man, so be it. However, don't expect others not to call you when you behave badly in public.

I have a moot question to throw out to any/all on this topic .

Can anyone explain how the Advertising Scandal that took down the last Federal Liberal Gov't really worked ?

I say this on the premise that Quebec's favour (ie to counter separatism and maintain a voting block ...in another a chicken and egg argument)has been obtained through various ways and means by Federal Gov'ts and described in earlier blogs on this topic. We previously discussed things like the Quebec Act....Offical language policy, Meech and Charlottetown etc.

HOWEVER....How did the Federal Liberals plan to gain from the more recent Advertising Scandal...ie in a way that it would trickle down and sequester votes and the Liberals again return to power?

How did this prevent another Quebec separation issue...one of the Liberals so-called excuses for doing so.

I never saw how this Ad Scandal issue really would sway another Quebec voting block....in "trickle- down -to- the- voter" modus operandi .....and it actually had far more cost than benefit, especially to the Federal Liberals and they most certainly should have known this.

I'll comment later on this, but it will add to my premise of this Quebec issue and the "old way of doing business" is plateauing if not collapsing and the NEW question is " what next " ?

I think, maestro, that it was an extension of Madison avenue thinking. Flood the airwaves and the billboards with references to the Maple Leaf, create the impression that prosperity and Ottawa are inextricably linked and you'll tip the 3 - 5 % of voters who 'swing' on the separation issue to stay with Canada.

Unfortunately, all it really succeeded in doing was to convince Canadians outside of Quebec that that province gets all the advantages of Federal largess ( to the detriment of the rest of us) and in Quebec it created a lot of embarrassment for anyone associated with the Liberal Party.

Another proof of the old adage that ends don't justify means.

G West, my mentioning of being in the Army, was not an attempt to gain brownie points, only to give you a little insight of my back ground, which entitles me to express my feelings and thoughts on those Quebec separatists( and their sympathizers ) that advocate the break up and or the holding of Canada hostage.

That’s bull sh!t your putting your own spin or read into what I’ve said, I stated before and will say again for your behalf, hate is a word that is not in my vocabulary. I may ridicule or criticize the Quebeckers but at no point of time was hatred inferred or implied, I realize it may be difficult for you to restrain yourself, but do try avoiding to be a sh!t disturber.

That’s a funny one, especially coming from an older FART!!

Thanks for the insight G West:

I am attempting to square all the TYEE views on this interesting topic.

As Churchill said...something to the effect that DEMOCRACY is one of the worst forms of Gov't, except it is better than all the rest.

If we define " Democracy " (albiet Non Oxford and loosely , but also try to define its core mandate)..in a Democracy we are all equals , one vote for one person, the benefit to the majority without the cost to any minority etc.

Gov't is for the people...Gov't works for us and not the contrary...etc. etc.

Everything is a progression,a political one upmanship in either a negative OR positive direction...

VILLAGES' interesting narrative journey of discovery and roots reaches junctures of continual forks in the road of " whats' the next path we take"...or " hack through the unknown jungle and trail blaze " in our continual move forward.

I muse and ponder if one could attach a meter to Gov't and see how much of their actions (and consequently our tax dollars)OR inactions are directed towards their original democratic mandate....versus pissing it down a rat hole on silly frivolous objectives that allow them to maintain and retain power... so they can again bless us with their "Gov't in Power" presences, and serve up more of the same. This ends up in a dog chasing its own Catch 22 tail.

The old " bribe us with our own money aka tax dollars" ...of course in Gov't it is a conflict -of -interest to use public funds to retain power for what are ultimately and effectively self -serving reasons, its more and more blatant, but its rarely challenged,and then it becomes part of the political culture, thus it becomes accepted lik ethe law of gravity via apathy.

This is how they have always ADVERTISED to us..." You voted us in, screw the popular vote..TRUST us ..we know better and what are you going to do about it anyway !!! .....give or take the odd public outrage .

I think Trudeau was the original Frat Boy who " Animal Housed " parliament with its own culture of entitlement and perks and this power -orgy formula has been passed on.

In my view we're at that "what next" point now in the negative progression ...Corruption of the Democratic model ultimately creates a judgement day of reckoning one way or the other.

As I wrote earlier woody, pointing out your errors and prejudices is unnecessary while you continue to post material that illustrates far better than I can what sort of person you are.

The fact you took the Queen's shilling is a complete non sequitur relative to the questionable nature of the hateful stuff you post. It may not be in your vocabulary - it certainly seems to be in your nature.

The army has often been full of idiots - right now is no exception.

Village:

My own tale of journey and exploration and the influence it had upon much pleasant reflection:

In my younger years I took the train with my family and we ventured to New York and visit American side of the family ...harkings of travelling the CPR route that tied the country of Canada together.

Around the same time,early 1960's , my father , my older cousin and I travelled to Prince Rupert to visit a family friend who worked in the Skeena Mill.

I vivildy recall the North - South Province building, versus the East - West Nation building. The Fraser Canyon was being tamed and the highway built,highway constrcution galore, and the entire Province was opening up all due the Vision of the Gov't of the day.

Dams were being built,etc. etc. and the Province of many ethnic and cultural origins was on the road to progress and prosperity in its great leap forward into modern society. I think every BC citizen and any other Canadian citizen was welcome to join in, and with little if any Federal assistance.

It's this type of vision that is the definition of true leadership, versus the lack of vision with blinkers on, tunnel vision, rose coloured glasses and basic denial and cheap self -serving politics which ultimately comes back and bites them all in the ass.

maestro,
Where do you think a lot of the cash for those highways - especially the TransCanada came from? Just because Wacky Bennett would never give Ottawa any credit didn'st mean he refused to cash their cheques. That old ruse about the signs on the Trans-Canada in BC is just so much typical Bennett crap.

BC got lots of federal assistance - still does although pee wee may well change that because he really doesn't believe in a strong federal presence. Why do you think he's playing so fast and loose with the First Nations?

G West;

Re: Trans Canada highway. Yes, agreed that would have been built with Federal "assistance", but then again much of it would be via re-patriated funds which originated within B.C. or any other Province for that matter.

In a different contextual debate...BC doesn't get Federal assistance, its the Federal Gov't that gets Provincial assistance...the Feds really don't create any funding of their own,they simply pluck the funding (various taxes )which originates from the united balkan Provinces. Blessing us with their Federal benevolency and generosity by sending back the money we originally sent them is not worthy of Brownie points. ( In fact the whole exercise is a massive waste of time and money, a far better one should be created) . That's a whole other issue of " Have vs Have Not" provinces, equalization payments, and the politics that go with that.

Again, my point is the critical mass is created, thus enough demand and intiative to move forward to the next levels of societal evolution.

Some leaders look farther ahead than others in this big picture vision, and not leave what may be inevitable too late and all the negative downsides that may result from such lack of vision.

Without vision, the people perish.

I don't see much vision out there anymore ... its all seem bandaids and flavour of the day etc. re issues and policy and and I am not sure who to blame or blame more.... us or the politicians. Someone sets the bar or allows the bar to be set.

On the vision issue maestro I have no problem agreeing with your point. As to the narrowness of parochial point of view being somehow a specialty of the Federal - as opposed to Provincial jurisdiction - I couldn't disagree more. The provinces have the 'vision' of gnats, the patience of a 2 year old and the intelligence of a cracked brick.
As our Victoria colleagues prove almost daily here and now.

As to who is setting the bad so low?

I think the kind of bluster kampf practiced my old W.A.C. was as bad or worse as anything we see today. He played the system for all it's worth. Not much real vision there either although you're right about one thing – alas he still has many fans in the blue-rinse crowd.

At least Quebec governments - Liberal and PQ alike - seem not to have forgotten the basic human needs of their constituents for things like good affordable childcare to help young people navigate the shoals of modern life.

On highway maintenance they are less scrupulous, although, in fairness, if we used the amount of sodium chloride on our roads here we'd likely be having similar problems too, and, after all - remember the 2nd Narrows - that was during Bennett's day too.

When residents of a city like Vancouver need to put 70%+ of pre-tax income into housing there is a REAL problem that's going to come home to roost pretty damn soon.

G West;

I thought for a moment I had tripped and fell into a worm hole in the time- space continuam...ie " blue rinse crowd "..haven't heard that one in years.

Politics is an art, not a science...even Glennochio paid homage to WAC. Would someone else have filled WAC's void ? Doubful..or delayed...back to " timing meets vision " comment.

Call it what you want, the job of building BC got done...If WAC had to play a "game"...often certain offical and unofficial rules get set at the time ...its how you play them. They don't all wear halos...or white hats and black hats. (though some TYEE bloggers seem to think this).

Still glad WAC was on our side...looking our for BC's interests.

Good jab re 2nd Narrows, another time warp....yes that's true, it happened under his watch. However, what's the connection...WAC didn't personally inspect the bridge specs? My retort was that if the socialists (kept at bay while WAC was in) were in, the collapse wouldn't have happened because they'd be on strike. Or maybe never even built. Progress has risks, mistakes are made...but doing nothing can be the worst long term mistake.

Road maintenance is its own Mafia,...and that's something Zalm changed , didn't he? (see..... I don't have 100 % support to non -NDP). That is one issue I have concerns over...due to a lot of driving all over BC.
Roads and politics are in the BC Thesaurus as symbiotic synonyms.

So...re your final point....WHO/WHAT are you blaming for residents of Vacouver etc. need to put 70 % pre -tax income into housing....surely not WAC nor Socreds nor the Provincial Liberals.

(I think you know my answer to that one ..correct ??? )

Well, I know you'd likely drag in the AlR!

But, actually I was thinking something more along the lines of what workingman posted the other day about too much ownership in the hands of folks who haven't really got a seat at the table - non-residents, in other words, or perhaps non-citizens.

The old foreign investments review board wasn't such a bad idea you know. It's just too damn easy to let foreign players into a table-stakes game. You need people, as citizens, who are here and committed for the long run and won't walk away when the going gets tough.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration - but selling out just because the damn banks aren't willing to lend to Canadian developers? That's been going on, and getting worse every year.

You need to read Ed Deak on that subject - he flags his posts with the words Fiat Lux - 'let there be light' and he's no flaming left winger either.

We're going to pay for this madness.

Highway maintenance (and construction in the case of the Coquihalla) is a crime in this province at the moment. The only place I think it's worse is Saskatchewan...for completely different reasons. Ralph understands the same basic 'truths' that fired Wacky Bennett so his problems are in other areas - like the air Albertans breathe.

As to the `air`that everyone breathes, and specifically to the fact that this year a WORLD URBAN FORUM revisited what was it`s birth place.., 30 years ago.., ergo.. HABITAT 76 , indeed..,at time(1976)when a deeper layer of BRITISH COLUMBIA was in deed !and in fact! expressing itself.., with
INGENUITY , WITH ARTISTIC FLAIR and VISION also..,

in that ( there seemed to be another kind of energy being expressed .. -beyond the surface beauty ,that is- which is always in evidence when visiting or arriving here in this part of the Province*...,

THERE IS CLEARLY A NEED FOR THIS PROVINCE IN PARTICULAR TO REVISIT IT`S UNIQUE AND very different experience, WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER PROVINCES IN THIS COUNTRY..*.., ( actually , one, if they had a lifetime.., or better yet ..,if we were better NETWORKED and CONNECTED across the LAND.., we could benefit from the `SHARED`EXPERIENCES of each of our PROVINCES ( family members, all part of the CANADA we inhabit )..., who have unique stories and narratives to express.., yet with very little opportunity to disseminate to other family members of this country*..,

Of course we have the CBC.., working against all odds.., to hear it`s VOICE heard , and working hard to have all of OUR VOICES heard..,over such a cacophony of sounds that dominate the AIRWAYS, .., [B]a communications spectrum ( mainly originating from American production centres).., as is the case with what is available on any magazine shelf..,hence the difficulty for any citizens of Canada to actually hear it`s own voice within that NOISE which creates a void..,in that great COMMUNICATIONS UNIVERSE..., which in effect offers up , through financial arrangements .., all of what the MIND OF AMERICA itself.., ergo AMERICANS - as they are known all over the world.., - choose to create*...,

( continued in the following post )

( from the previous post )

Indeed , the world trade negotiations that are continuing around the world brings to that particular negotiating table.. the very issue of culture and whether or not .., [/B]it has the right to stand on it`s very own ground..., ie..
whether nations have a right to decide ,
ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING whether or not they can regulate ( in- house ) their own affairs.., when it comes to matters of their individual collective minds*..,

¸Indeed much can be said about the quality of production , the context and packaging of a product.. and the CONTENT itself..*.. which by and large will clearly determine that very NATION`s `sense of place`, `sense of belonging`.. and `sense of identity `..that is so critical to a NATION...,

And so..,taking in again Jane Jacobs earlier warnings about each of the world`s nations ( ergo. ,MEMORIES and their relative state) ... well perhaps .., on a global context .., along with a definite REVOLUTION .. ( think of how revolutionary the printing press was at it`s offset ..) then one can look to the INTERNET and publishing options.., (21st Century Printing Press`s...? )such as THE TYEE .., represents.. for this Province.., and me thinks that we are indeed at a moment of transformative collective visions..,through VOICES that can now be heard and shared amongst the larger population.., ( without an intermediary )... indeed..,the CITIZEN TO CITIZEN DIALOG .. as is experienced every day.. in this creation , IN THIS ONLINE MAGAZINE*...,

BRAVO..*.. and KUDOS'`S once again to the TYEE and how the INTERNET provides through it`s technology the creation of these publishing presses..

( just a thought about how there exist light at the end of this turbulent era of transformation and change..,indeed the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel[B] ) , once again excuse the lengthy/ extended - thinking out loud - exercise that I`m practising at the moment *.., it`s simply that I wanted to share these ideas with you .. HOPE THAT THEY HAVE SOME RELEVANCE TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.* or at least that they bring to the DIALOG , another angle , from which to tackle the questions that are being raised ...on the questions we ask and on the answers we seek *...

LAND OF COMMUNICATIONS by any other name ....., ( CANADA ).. You , me , al 30 million or so.., needing to take that next step .., of getting to know each other .. THUS ,there is , for the NFB and L`Office National du Film a role and an opportunity.., to apply , what they`ve honed ,in the CHALLENGE FOR CHANGE and SOCIÉTÉ nouvelle days..

get us connected and use the tools that are now available for those beginnings and ends.

MAKES ME REALISE THAT THE `C`.. that Rafe warned everybody about.. you know in his.. HERE IT COMES AGAIN.., could perhaps stand for COMMUNICATIONS

THE CONSTITUTION IS REALLY ALL OF US ..,SO WHY SHOULD WE CRINGE WHEN THAT LETTER `C` COMES AROUND ,ONE MORE TIME..

YES ,IT IS A MECHANISM TO GET US ALL VOICING OUR THOUGHTS , OUR FEARS , OUR JOYS AT BELONGING TO A GREAT EXPERIMENT .. ( COLLECTIVELY SPEAKING )THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE BEGINNINGS OF AN AWAKENING.., INDEED , A SEARCH FOR OUR COLLECTIVE MEMORIES .. OF WHO WE REALLY THINK WE ARE.., as a nation, as a family.. and at the same time it reminds us of how much or little we understand or grasp of the resources we`ve inherited with this construct ...

Thus ,with our memories and shared existence alive and well and living in CANADA and beyond.., there is still not only hope but clearly an opportunity , a window of communications open to us all... ( that`s the C that I see , in all of this ! )

tripple E? .... LET`S TRY TRIPLE C*

About Ignatieff himself,the man was parachuted in so obviously has big buck backing. Anybody but Iggy is what I think.Here's an article worth reading.

http://www.canadiandemocraticmovement.ca/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=938

TE Maestro`s post .. in which he stated)ie Have a look at a map of Canada or a globe. If one looks at Quebec, it is surrounded by so much water at its perimeter. Effectively, realistically, it is the eastern most province that is not an Island .

What comes to mind Maestro , is to take the larger picture of CANADA ,.. and realise the amount of WATER .. that clearly is visible from a satellite image of this vast land..*..

The reason this fascinates me so.., and it`s like you say.., ( the simplest things can clearly , at times , open our eyes to so many givens.. , hence the waterways , `THE HIGHWAYS`, of the earliest of the European Explorers..,
RIVERS and LAKES further in.. from the initial very large rivers.. such as the ST.-LAURENCE offered.., deeper and deeper penetration.., for those earliest of settlers.., working the fur trade of the day.., ( again , it becomes accurately and abundantly clear where these routes were and still are to this very day.., but for certain DAMS constructed...¯ ( no wonder , we chose the BEAVER as a national symbol.. for we copied it`s technological prowess, by building dams of our very own eventually .., ( post the fur trade initial endeavours..).., AND we continued harnessing THIS TIME the ELECTRICAL POWER that was provided by the very abundant rivers and lakes of our HOMELAND*..,

A VIEW FROM SPACE DOES PROVIDE THE CLUES THAT I EARLIER SPOKE OF.., IN THE QUEST TO SOLVING THE PUZZLE.. , THE ENIGMA AND THE ROAD TRAVELLED.. , AS WE IN A TRANSFORMATIVE VISION SEARCH AND QUEST .., BUILT AN ONGOING IDENTITY*...

MAPS , THEREFORE , AND THEREIN , PROVIDING IN THE ARCHIVES NOT ONLY THE VISION OF WHAT EUROPEANS INITIALLY THOUGHT WAS THIS LAND.., BUT EVENTUALLY ALSO THROUGH MEANS AT OUR DISPOSAL, DISCOVERING AND EXPLORING .., WITH INSTRUMENTS AND THE LIKE.., THROUGH THE VERY ART OF MAP MAKING.., THE ESSENCE , THE RESOURCES AND THE INVENTORY... OF IT`S RICHES.., ( add to this now.. very creative map making that exist today.. such as the one`s ( techniques ) developed at Simon Fraser University , for one.. and we will realise the amount of research that is available to our collective knowledge.., if only we took the time to gather and integrate our vast pool of exploration already
accomplished..,

IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO APPROACH THAT AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS.., AND ASK THEM TO JOIN US IN THE SEARCH AND QUEST FOR NOT ONLY IDENTITY ITSELF.., BUT FOR THAT TRIPLE C.. I mentioned earlier...

Just an idea.., perhaps the TYEE could expand on a fascinating potential by creating a kind of forum that would continue with the participation of our very own experts .., the kind of INVENTORY that is so essential for our realisation..*

( continued in the next post )

( from the post above )

There is also that great inserindipity encounter such as the one I had ..,
in the field.., only yesterday.., when a friend , wanting me to meet another individual who was passionate in history.., shared with me , his vast knowledge.. which ,upon enjoying a few hours with him.., provided me with the clues that I was seeking as per certain missing links.., in the evolution of the NORTH AMERICAN.. transformation.., from a First Nations settlement to what became a European dominated habitat..,
( you see, his focus and passion was in having read for a very long time.., all that was available..,surrounding battles that occurred.. with all of the explanations surrounding the circumstances and events that create an outcome*..).. Thus , this Canadian*.. RETIRED though he be, very active..,
( like a Beaver ).. building a knowledge bank of understanding , in a subject matter that fascinates him..*..

I would submit that there are many of these `strangers in a strange land ` due to our having no knowledge of their existence.., nor the mechanism , nor the vehicle to make contact with.., except through other `strangers in the strange land`s `knowledge of the existence of these `strangers in a strange land.. ` ad infinitum..,AND SO.., I GUESS WHAT Ì`M SAYING.., , LET`S GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER.., AND LET`S REALISE THE RICHES AND THE RESOURCES THAT EACH OF OUR FAMILY MEMBERS CARRY... within their individual passions.., within their unique love and perspective they have of the land they cherish*..

THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL , AS MY FRIEND REMINDED ME.., WAS A RETIRED IRON FOUNDRY WORKER ,. and as my friend stated to me.. `who would have thought?..

HE MADE A VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION BY STATING THE , NOT SO OBVIOUS.., THAT WE ARE SO ... UNCONNECTED.., not only to our past memories ( collectively speaking ) but even to the `strangers in the strange land `..that live right next to us .., or the ones that frequent our neighbourhoods.., our respective communities.. cities , villages , province.., ect..

IT`S LIKE WE ARE ALL WEARING A MASK.., BUT NOT AS THE FILM VENDETTA vehicles , nor with the implied denouement of that particular narrative *..

( something to think about )..

Interesting article nana.., brings to mind that the pendulum swing of leaders and parties in CANADA are perhaps the best dynamic of Democracy that we will ever experience..*

ergo..: the population benefits with a counter option.., ( and though questionable as this article attempts to paint this one individual.., there is the alternate existence of the contender .., who is positioned with his party to .., attempt a majority government.. *..)

I would offer that the inequilibrium that both of these parties and potential leaders feels..- in the kind of `in- between`potential mandates.., is really the best conditions for the kind of RECONNECTION.., of PEOPLE.. , as they ponder the potential outcome of a coming election*..,

THUS,THE UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE.., IN MY MIND KICKS IN.. WHEN WE HAVE THE KIND OF CONDITIONS ( POLITICALLY SPEAKING ) AS WE DO TODAY..,

A minority Government elected, yet having to be very careful how it governs.., with a `natural governing party of Canada `placed in the penalty box.., due to infractions that were indeed punishable.., and indeed.., were executed ( the punishment)..by having that party lose the past election..*

THE REFEREE?... people of Canada*.., who make an educated decision through whatever means at their disposal to arrive at an OPINION..* and the aggregate sum total of these opinions that actually make their way to the voting booth.. determine .. who and what party will govern.., for the foreseeable future.. this country*..,

and with the role of the media.., ( and never forget that the new 21st century presses are now activated.., and you have the makings of a very fascinating outcome.., in the next election*..,

though a very uncertain outcome..,we all benefit from the `UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE`..that comes with such conditions..*..,

remember that even the observer in these kinds of experiments affect the outcome and the measurement*..,

QUANTUM PHYSICS.., QUANTUM POLITICS..*.

Q.. as in question mark:..is this
( an emerging theory of how elections and politics themselves will be explained in the future ? )

GWEST .. your observations and concerns about HOUSING per se..,( indeed during HABITAT 76- THE ISSUE OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS- was the very key.).,through which housing issues , homelessness , shelters and the like.., - the very basic conditions of life..- were discussed and I would offer that there are at UBC.. archives that would , once again , tell us the narratives and the stories especially.. and the recurring themes.., that prove once and for all.., that as human beings.., we continuously forget the lessons that HISTORY has to teach us *..

And so , I appreciate your concern of what will happen .., as 70 per cent of an individuals income goes to provide a roof over their heads.., ( do I understand you clearly ?).., that in the year 2006 , the average payments put out to put a roof over one`s head has been calculated to be .. 70 PER CENT of one`s wages.. ?

IF YOU COULD , I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN GETTING THE REFERENCING SOURCE TO THAT INFORMATION.. ( ie.. could you paste that information on this post location?)
or at least the link.., therein..?

thanks .
village..

Village,
Happy to help. Here's the story, from CBC on September 19 of this year. It's not too long so I'll post the whole thing:(As you'll see, it comes from an RBC economics study.)

Housing affordability continues to erode: RBC
Last Updated: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 | 11:43 AM PT
CBC News

Led by Alberta and British Columbia, Canada’s housing affordability deteriorated for the third consecutive quarter, according to a study by RBC Economics.

"Faster growth in house prices, the weakest annual growth in household incomes since the first quarter of 2005 and slightly higher interest rates have all combined to erode housing affordability in Canada," said RBC economist Derek Holt, in a release.

RBC said the two westernmost provinces had the sharpest declines in affordability as home prices posted double-digit increases and mortgage costs rose.

But the study's authors say housing in Calgary and Edmonton still remains more affordable than in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, relative to incomes.

RBC bases its Housing Affordability Index on how much it costs to own a detached bungalow, a townhouse, a condo, and a two-storey house in markets across the country.

In Vancouver, for instance, it takes a whopping 68.2 per cent of a household's pre-tax income to carry the average bungalow, assuming a 25 per cent down payment.

"While there was a nationwide deterioration, the regional divide in housing markets intensified this quarter with distinct trends emerging out west compared to the rest of the country, particularly central Canada," Holt said.

Price gains are slowing in both Ontario and Quebec, RBC noted.

Village,
I see Alcibiades has gotten you the info you wanted before I had a chance to dig it up.
Cheers.

G West

(Sorry for the delayed response. I had to supervise someone on another typical Canadian journey...a contractor who started small, grew the company, couldn't find reliable help, and has gone into "contraction" and back to a 1-2 man company..typical Canadian "success" story.

I know you copy and frame our discussions, so you get a " B " for the answer = ALR .

On the immigration comment, I'll give you a C+. However, the IMMIGRATION as a factor to lack of affordability for housing simply expedited the "die that were cast" years ago...that would have been otherwise delayed yet ultimately inevitable via these same seeds sown by Davey boy and Co.

All I can say is the even greater " lack of affordability" iceberg looms and you ain't seen nothing yet. Remember,there is no law forcing peole to sell, and people only offer what they are willing to pay. No one sells for less than what the market price is...and if the bidding goes up...the market price goes up...then..well...

I also wouldn't get into a "those were the good old days and we screwed it up". Herr Trudeau tried to stem the tide...re price controls and foreign ownership, didn't he???

In my view it was a societal and global evolution..ie we could do it THEN but it couldn't last...thus what we saw then was part of a natural progression.

Rag and slag WAC and Ralph all you want, but there is no way in hell you can blame them for the housing affordability crisis. Every time I see and hear those stories of the homeless, and the destitute, I hope Davey Boy and his ilk are watching and come to some sort of epiphany resulting in major guilt if they ain't brain dead yet from their idealistic haze.

As I said..you ain't seen nothing yet.

I don't think you're the first person to say that - not even on this thread as a matter of fact Maestro.

Oh I think I can, blame Wacko and his offspring. Certainly not the NDP's fault in any demonstrable way. Never been in poser federally and only 13 years out of (almost 107) in Bc.

THose problems aren't and can't be imagined to have anything to do with the NDP and you know it - as does every other neocon who tries to hang the blame around some other neck than their own. I heard a Liberal Cabinet Minister trying to get that pig to fly on CBC radio noon today. Nobody's buying it any more. As to Alberta, the case is even clearer thare and the closest a progressive party ever came to power in Edmonton was in the 1920s.

Sheesh! Get a new story.

Village:

Good to see you back and re -loaded.

In your last few narratives, I sat back and absorbed, filtered, centrifuged and distilled much of what you said.

They say many basic laws of nature can be applied to humans and human interactions...

The physics , the uncertainty principle , the quantum physics/quantum politics, Inequilibrium....

..and your friends comment We Are so UNCONNECTED. This reminds me of a thermodynamic law...where ultimately everything ends up in maximum disorder, (though life itself is in sheer conflict to this, at least in a PHYSICAL sense.)

Maybe things always come full circle. The journey starts with a genesis..an origin,,a homeland/motherland. The variables change and then the great dispersion..people see no attachment to the old land..the equilibrium shift encourages the risk and defines the risk as beneficial and less costly to seek a new land or surroundings.

It may have been on the same continent. However, after the early pioneers discovered the New World..was it not like Garden of Eden II? A fresh start was possible, and all the hope it gave, to try again and do it right a second time ie...learn from history?

Eden II ..what happened ? From voyageurs and pioneers who blazed trails, to the need to form a "civilzed society"....again....the fort..the village..the cities...the provinces the united provinces = Canada.

Would the epitome be a plateau yet a positive one? a stable and secure society.

Unfortunately we forgot about the snakes in Eden....those we have allowed to subtely and insidiously begin to drive the invisible wedges all the while, ironically, within a newly founded and supposedly "united" nation.

To be continued ...

G West;

Sorry, but the question or point of discussion was lack of affordability with respect to housing, and the % of income required.

Please explain how neo-cons etc. have created the problem.

Please (I politely request) EXCLUDE the premise that Gov't should provide (i)social housing or (ii) subsidized housing. My point is the root of the problem, not the fix/es.

Mike McCardell( in a serious discussion on the radio) had an interesting take on the solution, via the NYC solution.

Again,please explain to me any/all Neo-con guilt in this affordability issue with evidence ....sans ideology... before I continue my views on this.

PS...Hint: Mr. Hunt and the Silver market approx. 30 years ago.

Village:

back to the Snakes in the Garden ...

Perhaps any society reaches a " fat of the land " ,...an orgy of prosperity,..all is well....however there becomes a vigilance void...and others seize the opportunity and an accountability void is created next. Then more voids...

As mentioned earlier about "Canada is not a country"..perhaps it is fitting a Quebec politician admitted the obvious or let the worst kept secret slip out.

Perhaps the tie that truly binds us is fear of absorption by the U.S. This does not imply we don't get along internally, but then again,...our country is so huge the ratio of land per person is huge. The UNCONNECTED you mentioned earlier is the political thermodynamic effect...that we are more into a disorder than order.

That maximum order may one day be quantified...my own Carbon 14 dating is perhaps the 1960's. A fat of the land era...and Herr Trudeau waltzed or pirouetted in, we could afford to humour and tolerate him...then.

He took the objective mandate and began a subjective = self serving coronation...THE LEADER...to bless us with their brilliance, defying the law of reality ,... but ACTUALLY finding a true source of perpetual Politcal energy..aka Quebec-ite, to be infinitely mined.

Trudeau became addicted to power, and like all addicts... the end justified the means to obtain the fix and maintain the high.

Mining Quebec-ite created a magnetic repulsion by the rest of Canada. This began a chain "nuclear" reaction...a society of further "atom - splitting"..ie right back to individuality"Island" = DE-evolution away from neighbour, away from city..away from Province..away from Country...versus the OLD evolution of individual PROgressing to group ...to the village..to City..to...Province..to Country.

This new "rights empowered " individual is a mini balkan quasi-Province ,much like the UNCONNECT the Feds have fostered with the Provinces.........which is much like a full circle return back to the individual voyageurs and pioneers ie " the atoms" from which the "molecule" Country started in its Big Bang Theory or Garden of Eden origins.

The BIG UNCONNECTED....again..

Have we learned much..did history repeat itself...???

No maestro, that was just a sidebar. The point of the discussion is the character of the nation and how 'Quebec' fits into the mix relative to the rest of Canada.

You're the one who brought up W.A.C., remember, as some kind of childhood avatar.

btw, neocons have created the problem because of their fixation upon the market as the only device for measuring and evaluating success. It's a long story and I have to get to work so I'll give you some more details later - but even that doesn't really belong in this discussion about 'nationalism' - which is another thing I'm not too keen about, by the way.

Your attempts to pigeon hole me should already have been dropped from your bag of tricks.

G West:

One may be "accussed" of pigeon holing...however, its a straight up question. Please excuse me, but my head is still spinning a wee bit from the WTC 9/11 conpiracy theorists. I can't believe some of them are on the same planet. Serenity now...Serenity now..

I am going to "guess" your premise is the allegedly loosey goosey banking system and the alleged ability to borrow and allegedly drive up the prices is the cause.

I will qualify my discussion in that I am not going to deny this to "some" degree. However, we are not talking with reference to the Prairies and land that can be gotten for a relative song.

The 9/11 topic had a minority of us avoiding the purple haze and misdirection and getting down to the nitty gritty. Once it got down to reducto ad absurdum...the other side of pro-conspiracy fans seemed to bail out.

One person's pigeon -holing is anothers'
focus on what can be a very straight forward issue.

I'm not talking about the prairies exclusively, obviously. Vancouver hadn't moved to the outskirts of Saskatoon last time I checked.

Things finally calmed down on the 9/11 thread, btw.

Too damn busy for anything else right now - I have a client breathing down my neck.

Likewise....off for a while, had to supervise another capitalist...discuss this later.

However, my premise is based on supply vs. demand....and some supply has no demand for various reasons. The dynamics are the same and one contrast and comparison often explains and references the other/s.

BTW: My Saskatchewan rooted colleague tells me that the Province is purchasing acquiring ex -farms/farmland and reverting them back to original environment. The land was either marginal for farming or like many farmers..."F"-it.

The topic will be WAC, Canada...contrast of old vision...and what is nouveau vision...and the corona effect...aka my take on the quasi- Unifying Theory of this blog topic.

Well Maestro.., ( and by the way thanks Alcibiades ) much appreciated.., and to GWEST .., for the reply , thanks once again )..,

Now to that fascinating extension of what I postulated in this post.., and thinking of how we function.., via the MIND CONSTRUCT and the EXTENDED TOOLS that we`ve invented ( created ) for our fascinating abilities to IMAGINE.., to in effect attempt to map the future consequences of .. this or that decision, or action , or even inaction.

Bringing me to that thinking engine of ours.. ( individually and collectively speaking ),. and how at this juncture of our evolution we choose to build the models of reality that complements our individual and collective life experiences to the point that we have reached a fascinating next step up option.. ( by hopefully reaching a higher communications ground of thinking *.) thus , what I am happy to report this late morning.., ( for indeed contractual obligations keep me aware of the time I CAN SPEND at this wonderful EXPLORATION and DISCOVERY PROCESS..)

Thus , Maestro, one of my most recent experiences.., as per bridging the UNCONNECTED environment we all at times experience.., was a call I`ve just received from Seattle.., from an individual whom I`d met.., as a matter of fact , again , through an serendipity side bar on a most usual outing.. ergo.., the Fringe Festival..

( actually , it wasn`t even the Fringe Festival that I had in mind when I travelled downtown.., ( in Vancouver)..simply to enjoy the energy at times that can be experienced in these kinds of settings..,

and so.. , as you might guess., it was that I took in a most fascinating play.., which was dealing with the legends of old.., and suffice it to say that this individual had managed to capture the HUMAN CONDITION.. by creating a NARRATIVE that had MERLIN THE MAGICIAN trapped in a TREE FOR Thousands OF YEARS.., and was now having to deal with the years and the memories and as important the future that lay before him*..

( the fascinating thing about this play and how I experienced it .. , had me looking deeper into the artistry and then eventually the MIND itself.. that came up with such a powerful narrative.).. and with this in mind , I thought more of what you had to say..

( continued in the next post ) .

Look up the Palliser Triangle sometime. Never should have been settled in the first place.

continued from the previous post..)

I also reviewed some of my own writing on the topic at hand and came up with these quotes.. of mine and MIND*..

`We simply need to get our act together and be able collectively to tell our story*.. with the confidence of : a sense of place , a sense of belonging and a sense of identity itself.. , and I believe truly and honourable that this kind of exploration and discovery will provide the ....
solution .., to the riddle , to the puzzle and enigma of our beginnings ....`

`When this missing piece of the puzzle is once again re-integrated within our acknowledge historical stepping stone of settlement ,, then the discussions that I hear in this post would take on a clearer NARRATIVE..*.. and we would all be in the same framework and frame of reference..,

thus we could go on , constructing that HOUSE.., 21st Century construction materials , memories and all....

And so Maestro I am trying to distil also the essence of what you are sharing , and sense that for CANADA we can only tell our stories with our very own BIBLE , so to speak.., we need to be able to get at the direct memory of our road travelled.., we need to hear own very own individual and collective voices.. ( and not rely on any other books that were created for other cultures at their origins.. and though they clearly had a purpose once upon a time.., we need to seek out and hear what myths , what stories would better explain away [/B]that that we are in fact facing ..in the kind of unknown that the 21st Century is preparing for all of us..*..

As you`ve probably surmised by my comments , I am of the conviction that the legends and the stories of yesteryears - though they have a message to convey..- can never take front and center to the unwritten legends and stories of our very own individual and collective experiences and lives lived.. IN- HOUSE*.. thus my focus on what we`ve experienced in the years hence..

And so.. back to the settlements and the stories that make the statement that we are missing the elements and the pieces .. that could make , the country real to our imagination..,, for let`s be clear about this.., it is real ,and has all of the tools (governance engine ) to move us forward.., we need to become aware that we are real..,and this is , as with all individuals a challenge of confidence and perception itself.., of which we, as a country , ( late bloomer , I call it ).. due to having waited so long to bring home a constitution.. ( indeed a bible of our existence really ).. which sat as a testimony of our colonial mentality hesitating to make the break and arrive at a maturity of our own..

AS I SAID IT TOOK ONE GREAT VISIONARY and though I can see you are no fan of PIERRE ELLIOT TRUDEAU.. he did in effect bring us to our consciousness that we are to this day , having to harmonise , to in effect , customize to our gradual awakening *..

and with this individual and collective thinking engine acknowledged , we can then begin preparing ourselves for a transformative vision of a millennia and closer to our life span , the transformative vision of the coming century.. [B]which in effect will preoccupy most nations that will survive the great changes upon this world

coming.. the great changes coming that is..

wind and turbulence.. and with this ever accelerating economic bubble .. expanding before our very eyes.. _ this is why I was seeking the source of that particular information which calculated the 70 per cent pre-tax expense of having a roof over one`s head.. and you`re comments of .. : You haven`t seen anything yet, really brings the urgency of the fundamental question of HUMAN SETTLEMENT ISSUES in perspective..

what on earth is really going on that we can simply accept the kind of out of tilt balance that this ECONOMY is producing and without any government policies , regulations and guidelines how far back to the dark ages would we find and indeed lose ourselves in.. as a people with a quality of life and potential freedom to enjoy the NATURE`s gifts that are imperilled by having such blinkers on as to not ask ourselves the question.. : as did once upon a time an elder who asked..:

ARE YOU WORKING TO MAKE MONEY TO BUY THE THINGS YOU NEED AND WANT .. BECAUSEYOU DON`T HAVE THE TIME TO MAKE THE THINGS YOU NEED AND WANT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO BUSY TO EARN THE MONEY TO BUY THE THINGS YOU WANT..,

( IN AN INFINITY LOOP OF ABSURDITY wouldn't you say ?...).. we need to ask the questions that will factor in our HUMANITY.. .and our reasons to even go about doing what we do .. on a day to day basis.. including the relationships that we establish along the road of life..*.., we need to ask of those who attempt to gain our attention in representing our collective group thinking.. what are their values as to what can be achieved and realistically constructed.. - such as available housing for one and all -.. so that the important things of life itself can be enjoyed..,

such as happiness , love and affection.., and NATURE herself.. you will notice are still unfathomably impossible to factor in the ECONOMIC LANGUAGE OF THE DAY*..., in other words , why is there such difficulty in getting at the ROOT EXISTENTIAL ELEMENTS that make life not only bearable but can also make it wonderfully beautiful in it`s experience*..

me thinks that the MATTER OVER MIND
( QUESTION ).. NEEDS ONCE AGAIN TO BE ASKED OF ALL OF US..,

as did one great writer and author.. Timothy finley.. in a lecture I attended in which he asked..«:

MATTER OVER MIND: THE IMAGINATION IN JEOPARDY..*.. a valid observation he was making in an understated question of our times.*..

( it was in B.C. that he gave this lecture at UBC.., on one of those wonderful Saturday evening lecture series.., ( that unfortunately , I can no longer attend due to my absence from the province , usually , in my weekend forays in other lands.. and side trips of exploration and discovery of my own*.. ) contractual obligations and the like.. that are now calling me to tend to..,

take care.. and thanks for the reflections shared.. ( I`l look later for your reply to my thoughts on your thinking *,)..

mind to mind , without blinking..

village.

maestro

You asked about the Advertising Scandal of the Federal Liberals and how it worked.

Following the 1995 referendum on Quebec's status the Federal Liberals and particularly Prime Minister Jean Chretien were shocked at the closeness of the vote and felt the need to do something.

The image of the Federal Government was not considered to be sufficiently positive and it was felt that Quebecers were perhaps under informed vis a vis the benefits that they derive from Ottawa.

Rather than be paternalistic, which is often how independantist-minded Quebecers often describe Ottawa, it was decided that a broad campaign of advertising would be employed to spread a positive Federal message of Canada's involvement in multiple aspects of Quebec society. (A soft-sell flying the Canadian flag.) Advertising was considered to be a useful method since print media and broadcasting, including the commentators at Radio Canada have often been considered more sympathetic to the separatist cause and that's putting the perceived sentiment mildly. Any pro-Canada stance would also be attacked at Radio Canada as meddling propaganda. Advertising agencies in Canada have traditionally been affiliated with one or another political parties, accounts have shifted between agencies after election upsets.

Since the Liberal agencies were mostly all located in Montreal, handling the accounts of the Liberal Party of Canada, The 'NO' Campaign, Canada Post, Health Canada, Parks Canada, VIA Rail, etc., they were already set up and staffed and also dependent on a united Canada for their financial survival.

Tendering was not legally required, so it was agreed that someone should run the operation and that funds were not an issue. The word went out and companies were asked if they wanted to get involved. There was so much money available some people turned down the opportunity to get lots of money for very little, if any, work; as the Auditor General reported. The desperation was such that was really no requirement for accountability. As one Ad VP tells it the company owner was simply asked if they wanted some of the money - they could design the campaign.

It has been reported that contracts were given out from a informal meeting table in the restaurant at the Ritz-Carlton.

This attempt at nation building seems to have backfired.

Thanks very much, realistic man.

You explained it very well...and in greater detail.

My own understanding was a lot of money got shovelled into many companies with dubious returns on the massive $$$ investment and equally dubious accountability.

This all seems in many ways to be the all too predictable cliff the Federal Liberals were on the inevitable road to, given the path they chose for national unity. It simply and finally caught up to them.

Their brand of national unity is only consistent with their own Natural Governing Party of Canada delusionary mantra...

It's not what's good for Canada is also good for them....it's actually what's good for them is good for Canada , and we must agree or should silent "in the interests of national unity" .

All Right maestro, I'll bite. What, in your opinion, is good for Canada?

"Alci":

Good question:(not that I am necessarily baiting an answer....)

Having ben highly influenced by MAD magazine in my younger and impressionable years....I recall one of those cartoons full" WHAT's WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE ? "

MAD's take was "WHAT IS RIGHT WITH THIS PICTURE "?

Chretien once made a comment about the GST and removing it ....and said it is like trying to unscramble an egg/omelette.

Sometimes the unfortunate thing about a problem is actually identifying it, but that's all one can do. Solution= ???

In my view. many at the empowered level realize much of what they bless ( = curse) us with will remain as a "legacy" to their version of doing the people's business.ie they know their own legislated omelette is not only fairly entrenched, it often ends up in our faces.

I think we, the lowly citizens, are left to roll with the punches. One can take on a cause or an issue, but then become part of a special interest group. The bigger picture is now a bigger omelette.

Personally speaking, not quite ready to saddle up and lead a charge for change. One has to be realistic and pragmatic when challenging what is often entrenched dogma. Pick and choose one's battles.

The Quebec issue, again in my view is not so much What is RIGHT or WRONG with this picture...it is more like a hockey fight where one stays on the sides till both combatants are exhausted. Or like a fire best left to burn itself out. I think that point is getting reached politically.

I think the world has changed dramatically since Quebec last attempted separation...and they can't stand alone in the global scale. I am still not convinced they could separate. Thats' why I think much of the issue is one big con game, bluff...Feds and Quebec sparring not like prize fighters, but more like pro wrestlers...one big show. Quebec gets restless, Feds capitulate....(gee in a closed experiment ,if the Feds capitulated first...would Quebec only then get restless next?)

Thus, let it play out...I think the Feds have played their last ace...and maybe this scam is on its last legs. Once it folds...and the dust settles...something new will take its place...and maybe a new fork in the road will be taken much different than the bad ones that got us here in the first place.

I believe this is the last day of this blog. We'll keep firing away till then...

quote:

"I dislike people who categorize others"

???

maestro - I think that your summation and the sports analogies are perfectly apt.

Just to elaborate on a point... ( and by the way Maestro ,thanks for the `HEADs UP` as to this being the possible last day of this particular blog*...

Time to recap then , and perhaps add that in my humble opinion that we`ve proven without a doubt - in this session- that we are capable of being respectful of each others ` road travelled in life ` and proven that though some have political leanings or even conviction as per the POLITICAL PARTIES that exist today.., there are also people , I`m convinced ,that are like me.., INDEPENDENT OF ANY POLITICAL PARTIES and indeed, VOTING AT EACH ELECTION ... be it MUNICIPAL, PROVINCIAL OR FEDERAL... (* always on the look out for HEART, INTELLIGENCE AND RESPECT that those who seek to represent `THE PEOPLE `..actually manage to convey..

In other words..,much like this Dialog Forum, ( managed to do over the time that it was alive and sharing, we managed as a group of concerned citizens , we managed to share our fears, our vision, our hopes and dreams and perhaps even more..,our caring!

Thanks for the experience , and thanks for the accommodation you`ve made to a `stranger in a strange land` as I know myself to be ..., amongst individuals in this environment that did not know me and yet treated me with respect!!!

HOPE TO RUN INTO MOST OF YOU DOWN THE ROAD OF LIFE.., ( or better yet in one of these inserindipity side trips I often make..)

Take care,

village.

Dogmatic adherance to a political idea or party line is incompatible with the natural condition of the universe which is a contant state of flux and change.

Thought provoking and civilized dialogue that includes differing opinions is the essence of human intelligence and, we hope, leads to understandings of diverse convictions and refinements of ideas which leads to progress.