We'll look back, as will the children and grandchilden who are alive now, and say, We had the warnings, we did too little. The tipping point for many ecosystems, including the ocean, is past. The damage has been done (and is continuing to be done: thanks, Victoria, for at least another four years of raw sewage).

Our children and their children will say: Thanks, Gordon Campbell, and your ministers, for the wrong-headed approach to alleviating transportation woes by building wider and more highways. Thanks, Steven Harper, for ignoring all sound scientific opinion and instead listening to some fringe crackpots, paid by the oil companies. Thanks, dear parents and grandparents, fellow Canadians, for those great rides in your SUV's, for living the good life and ignoring MY life.

Yes, this is a despairing comment. I don't know what to do. But I have to drive to work now, so I better sign off.

Let's not pick on Rafe for his past. Few of us were born environmentalists, socialists or anarchists. Some come to their awareness early in life, some come later. There are many reasons for this. It doesn't matter, just be glad when people do get enlightened.

Some thoughts on why the elite acts in this fashion. I think an authoritarian hierarchy - and corporations and governments are best described thus - is a kind of filtering system. Manipulative, unprincipled people tend to excel in climbing these hierarchies. Creative, enlightened people tend to do poorly at this, and their very questioning and new ideas threaten those above them. Thus they get pushed to one side, or don't bother getting in the game in the first place. Hence those who rise to positions of power tend to be manipulative mediocrities, yes men, or even sociopaths as we have seen with the US government.

I guess you don't remember back when Rafe walked out on his constituents for greener pastures.

Yah! Yah! Gasworks. Behead the messenger.I suppose you never learned from your mistakes in your past.
"To soon old and to late smart."
Good on you Rafe. Working for a future takes balls in the here and tomorrow. Living in the past is a symptom of senility.

Taxpayers didn't have to pay for my mistakes my friend.

I suppose I should qualify that mistake by stating "except for voting for the wrong people".

Gasworks, you are part of the problem; Personal attacks, instead of dealing with the problem in hand. Remeber Rafe was the one behind the preventing of the Americans raising Ross dam and flooding BC!

Our beloved government have sold out the voters to the highest bid, especially Campbell & Co. - BC Rail, sold at a firesale price to CN. I wonder if Campbell will get a directorship for this?

Or RAV; here we are building a metro/subway on a route that doesn't have the ridership to support it. Why? Well Campbell only lives a block away from the the former rapid transit route, the Arbutus Corridor, which could use much cheaper light rail. The result?

The taxpayer is paying about $2 billion more for a subway, than LRT; translation: the friends of the government in construction, etc. are getting $2 billion more in taxpayers money! What a concept!

The environment has been trashed by the fishfarms and the coast is becoming stagnated with disease. In Alaska there is serious talk of sending in the US navy to destroy the fishfarms as they see them as a biohazard!

The big pork barrel of course is the 2010 Olympics, where public money is being sqandered on questionalbe projects for questionable sports, for questionable atheletes!

Thanks for the personal attack Grumpy, (one good reason why I could care less about what you think).

Almost forgot, Rafe's no visionary, that's for sure!

Yes, read and enjoyed Zola's J'Accuse, many years ago.

Got a real laugh when I opened the Province, today, to find an editorial pushing the use of coal to produce electricity and, on the same page, the suggestion that the Snowbird precision flying team be disbanded.

Now there's balance for you.

Rafe has taken some time to come to the stance he holds to now.

Just as it has taken some time to do the damage; so shall it take time to correct it.

Those whom would lie, dissemble, or cheat the environment are organized - so now those whom would oppose these environmental cheats become organized.

Remember the environment when you vote = it is yours to loose.

Thanks, Rafe, for a good piece. The oceans are only part of it, and every government we've ever had has been part of the problem. I would cite particularly the tenure of Jean Chrétien, who pushed the Kyoto Accord so that we could feel good about ourselves, and then allowed carbon emissions to increase by thirty percent while they were supposed to decrease to 1990 levels. Let's say plainly something that crops up in several of the above posts as well in Rafe's piece: we are each part of the problem, with rare exceptions (mea culpa). Not only do we elect the ciphers who do the work of the d"Aquino crowd, but we live our lives in current context, continue consuming and resist that which limits the scope of our choices to consume. I remember Rafe as a Socred, hated what he did, and welcome his change of orientation, just as I've had to adjust much of my thinking over the last decade. Unions, professional organizations, community groups and churches are as much at fault here as are governments, but they also tend to represent the thinking of their constituent members. Perhaps those who see through the curtain of deceptive advertising and 'news' need to not only network with like minds, but also to get into those organizations the perpetuate the status quo and try to direct the process toward new horizons. Imagine all the Lions, Rotarians, Baptists, Teamsters and professional engineers looking for ways to build a constructive society: I'm choking on the prospect. I would also suggest that those who want to take shots at each other (or at me) read the sorry history of the Spanish Civil War to get an idea of what infighting can do to a progressive movement. By the way, I spent a good part of the summer of '86 avoiding Expo and mulling over Jean-Denis Bredin'sL'Affaire , an exhaustive study of the Drefus Case. It's chilling stuff, and Rafe's choice of analogy is entirely appropriate.

Hopefully the current small- minded bunch won't take so long.....

Thanks Rafe for your courage and tenacity to keep speaking of matters which BC's monopoly media would rather not discuss. And thanks again and again to the Tyee for creating one of BC's best forums for continued critical thinking and writing. Imagine if Rafe's article was published in the Vancouver Sun!! As it might have 20 years ago. We would have amuch larger debate on this very important issue. As we see the slow slide of our freedom of speech in our society, and the loss of good governance, I worry what will follow in its wake...

Thirty years ago when I lived in Denmark there was a major energy debate after the first Oil embargo in 1973-74. At the time there was virtually zero domestic energy sources. Cheap coal imports from Poland and nuclear power as in Sweden were options supported by industry (coal) and some unions (nuclear power. But then a group of media savvy "radicals" in a community college in northwestern Jutland built the worlds largest wind turbine, demonstrating once again how a small group of determined people can effect social change. The debate raged on but keen interest by many citizens eventually led to huge taxpayer supported investments. Although eventually locating North Sea oil which could provide 100% self sufficiency more than 20% of Danish energy needs are presently provided by Wind Power. Anyone seriously interested in understanding Denmark's committment to an alternative energy future can find lots of information by doing a simple google search. We can find sustainable energy solutions but it takes a self aware people and political pressure on our representatives to make the only viable option.

Welcome to B.C.
We have all the Brown you want to see.
If its Green cut it down,
Economy's booming if its brown.

If its Green dig it up.
If its a hill blow it up.
B.C.'s motto used to be
Something else you see.

It was "Keep B.C. Green."
Now you see the premier preen
You'll not see him frown
when he hears "Keep B.C. Brown."

If its a small town
Shut it down.
The press falls down
and helps keep away the premiers frown.

Talk show Hosts Cheer
Think Liberals are so Dear.
Seniors ,Poor, Homeless and Disabled
please disappear.
Hospitals , schools in small towns hell small town Please Disappear.

Thanks, Rafe.

To your critics who have posted here:

I remember a conversation with an old prof of mine about Teddy Roosevelt. My prof was an admirer. I thought the man was barbaric.

Roosevelt, of course travelled to see the world's wildlife, and to kill them en masse for pleasure.

But my prof asked me, 'how much you can blame a man for being a product of his time?' He may have killed for sport, but he also did something of extraordinary vision: he created the system of national parks that protects the great wild spaces of America to this day.

We all are products of our time, and looking back, most of us will be seen as backwards-thinking people. But it's the people of courage and vision who will right the wrongs of our time and make the world better. Flawed as these people are - as we all are - these are the heroes who walk amongst us.

I know little about the alleged sins some say Rafe committed in his past, but I can say this:

Keep up the fight, Rafe.

Dee Hon

Hear, hear.

Whether we have come to care about our environment recently or many years ago is, as you say, irrelevant. What is needed is more people like Rafe who have the opportunity and courage to speak out. And those in power who obstruct this process need to be held to account.

Earth first.

We'll log the other planets later.

Thanks, Dee Hon, that needed to be said. Imagine what people will say about us 100 years from now! Thanks for the poem, mcdull. One thing though, not only is the landscape of BC brown but so is the politics. Brown as in brown shirt!

Why is there almost always the need to demonize resource extraction in this province? Why? Logging and mining are not like they were 20-30 years ago, great changes have been made, many thanks to the eviromentalists. Smaller clearcuts, setbacks on creeks, wildlife areas left alone, roads deactivated, on and on. There are no new huge clearcuts, just patches, no one changes oil on logging machines by letting it run into the ground, it is recovered, just some examples. I work in a big t.f.l. and the comparison between the new way and old way is clear. Yes, clearcutting still happens, its the only way to log the steep ground on the coast, small clearcuts are not harmfull. In mining, no more are mines started anywhere, there are years of examination by many different government and n.g.o.s. Mined areas are reclaimed and then used by wildlife, and so on. This is our heritage, supporting small communities throughout the province. It is bullshit that some people in the biggest clearcut in the province (the GVRD) complain and wail about logging and mining while benifitng from those resources, one way or another. It really is, when people leave the city to travel around this province, remember, you are travelling on roads built by loggers, or for industry, no roads get built for tourists.

Logjam 603, I first saw that saying at a logging expo in Chilliwack back in '94. It was on a t-shirt with a picture of the globe and said "Earth First", imitating that groups logo, then under it, "we'll log the other planets later". Funny then, funny now. B.C., as anyone who gets out of the big smoke knows, never stays brown for long. Most people cannot tell the difference between old and new growth, most of what you can see from downtown was clearcut, years ago.

It's not about esthetics. It's about biodiversity and ecosystem functioning.

Most people can't taste the difference between farmed fish and wild. But there's a big difference environmentally. Same with forests.

People can't tell the difference between medicine and placebos either. Even though one works and one doesn't.

As for the attack on city-folk, I have yet to see rural folk manufacture their own cars, trucks, heavy machinery, televisions, iPods etc. Without city-folk, rural folk would be living in the 18th century.

Aw c'mon, Anarcho: there is a very significant difference between a right of centre democratic political party (with whom many of us disagree) and a xenophobic mass movement that puts citizens in uniform to beat up communists. Remember the boy who called wolf?

Only a joke Steve P.

Something made me furious about two months ago i got off the ferry in Victoria and thru the sea of billboards one billboard was anti fish farm and about half a mile down the road the next billboard was pro fish farming said something like "I'm a farmer" or "fish-farming feeds my family" along those lines anyways made me sick to my stomach.

To all, especially those who think Rafe isn't interested in the environment. It seems the dirt is out on the fish farms.

Have a read:

Part 1.

The following will be posted later today on my website, rafeonline.com. In view of the importance of Counsel's findings I urge everyone to see that this is widely circulated and that the politicians be made aware that the jig is up (pun intended) for the fish farmers and their shameless apologists.

Thanks.

Rafe Mair

Alexandra Morton has just had a complete vindication and a smashing victory. It’s now up to us to see that he victory is turned into a win for British Columbia wild salmon.

Alexandra Morton is a biologist who lives in the Broughton Archipelago just across from Port McNeil on Vancouver Island. A few years ago she became concerned at the number of sea lice in the channels in the archipelago and the effect they might be having on tiny migrating wild salmon smolts and if there were a problem, was it in any way related to the Atlantic Salmon fish cages that were situated right in the paths of these migrating wild fish. She did her testing and to make a long story a bit shorter she found that there was a relationship and that millions of small wild salmon were dying so that large international fish farmers could ply their trade in nicely suitable, for them, channels. She was hit with everything but the ring post along the way – Fisheries and Oceans Canada threatened to arrest her for illegal testing, the fish farmers hired Hill and Knowlton, the world’s largest PR firm to discredit her – they also hired a flatulent discredited former Greenpeacer to try to discredit her. The Provincial Liberal government called into question her scientific integrity. She was pilloried by the local press, mostly ignored by the mainstream media, and constantly badmouthed by Mayor - but on she plugged. Before long, the world’s acknowledged scientists in this field validated her work and her findings – some of them did studies of their own which confirmed Alex’s work. She was peer published many times over yet the fish farmers kept fighting. The ex Greenpeacer attacked her personally; the governments ignored her findings and claimed that all the science was on their side; the mayor of Port McNeil, an Irish windbag named Gerry Furney, tried to stop my wife and me going into the archipelago to view the situation with Alex by throwing up a picket line at 6:00AM

All those who think fish farms are all wholesome, etc., think again, the fish in fish farms may have BSE as they are fed food made from dead animals, mostly rendered cows, sheep, etc. A health scare maybe just around the corner.

Part 2.

Alexandra Morton had had enough so she laid a private information against both governments and a Fish farm company. As is invariably the case when private prosecutions are laid the Attorney-General appointed Special Counsel, an eminent counsel named William Smart, QC to look at the evidence to see whether or not a criminal conviction would be likely. He found it would not and the fish farmers, Hill and Knowlton and the “Benedict Arnold” ex Greenpeacer exulted in their victory. We won, they brayed.

But they hadn’t. Far from it, it was a smashing rout because the scientific evidence called upon by Mr. Smart completely vindicated Ms Morton’s work and in fact praised it highly. No … the case was dropped because while Mr. Smart acknowledged that the lice were killing the fish held that there was doubt a conviction the criminal onus of proof for this type of offence would lie for “releasing” these lice. It was the interpretation of the word “release” that got the farmers off the hook. It was the inadequate wording of the law that opened the loophole Mr. Smart was forced to concede.

Let me conclude with the words of Frederick Whoriskey from the Atlantic Salmon Federation , the expert called by Mr. Smart. Here’s what he said

“Having reviewed the evidence specific to the Broughton Archipelago, additional studies available in the scientific literature on the impacts of sea upon salmonids worldwide, having visited the Broughton Archipelago, and based on my past work experience, I am of the opinion that the evidence shows that sea lice in the Broughton Archipelago are infecting and killing Pink salmon. (Emphasis added)

Ms Morton and her colleagues have carefully and diligently executed their scientific work. They have used credible experimental and data analysis methods, regularly subjected their results to peer review, and have presented their results for scientific scrutiny through publications in established scientific periodicals. This is the globally accepted procedure for the conduct of good science.” (emphasis added)

It’s point, set, match to Alexandra Morton.

It is surely now up to all of us to demand that the two senior governments pay heed to this overwhelming vindication and endorsement and compel all fish farmers whether of Atlantic Salmon or other, to move immediately into closed containment facilities and put an end to this government supported rape of the environment and our fish..

Somebody mentioned Mencken on another thread today and it brought to mind a quotation from the old curmudgeon.

I think it's as apt today, in British Columbia, as it has ever been anywhere. Certainly, as Rafe points out here, relative to the state of the natural world, it is true and one could post the quotation without fear of being inaccurate on the Poverty thread as well.

Here's what Mencken said:

"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under."

Didn't Rafe ever hear of "Le Ministère responsable pour les espèces en voie de disparition"?

Great to hear of Morten's vindication. As Rafe has said, she has been maligned shamelessly by the very people who are supposed to be doing what she has so selflessly done.

However, Minister Pat Bell is still in denial and is steadfastly moving ahead with fish farm expansion. This quote was made yesterday, "I am confident that we can continue to improve our approach to having both farmed and wild salmon for the benefit of all British Columbians."

Any document that has Morten's name on it is instantly disregarded. Everyone who is concerned about the devistating effects of fish farms needs to tell him so in no uncertain terms. His email is

I have been a redneck Liberal supporter all of my life but this Gordo government has become little more than a big business appologist with little regard for the people or the province.

The Gord is my shepherd
I shall not want..

Yes gaulois we definitely need one of those at every level of government. It will be the fastest growing ministry of all very soon.

you still hangin' around here g. i'd have thought you'd be tired of all this lefty commie unionist shite by now.

I just drop in now and again to counteract your occasional presence.

What's with the Canucks and Carter, anyway? Without him supporting the twins where are the Canucks to find even the meagre allotment of goals they scored last season.

Rafe: Does the name of Tom Ball ring a bell, or the Calgary Faculty of Retrograde Evangelical Scientific Revisionism?

Global warming is a hoax, they say. God loves us all and blesses industry. Be happy.

I accuse gordo, knuckles falcone, joan mackuntyre and a consortium of greedy developers and real estate toadies of wasting TAXPAYER billions on self-serving, private interest benefiting, planet-destroying mega-projects like the rav line and sea-to-sky highway.
So you wish you run things like they do in china heh kev? Hows about a bit of chinese justice too?
ditty-moa!!

gasworks said: "...Too bad your 'precautionary principles' slept through the 70's and 80's Rafe".

Hey gasworks..how is it goen' dude?

I thought I would just say...who cares what did or did not happen way back when... Rafe is talking about NOW and the FUTURE of our children. He is trying to make a difference, and in doing so...has. What have you done for the enviroment lately?? Read on dude...

Rafe said: "We have a government that invites environmental rapists, dressed as if they just stepped out of an Eddie Bauer catalogue, to open up our wilderness so that wealthy Europeans and American hunters and fishers can not only intrude on that wilderness but walk away with taxidermic evidence of their manliness.

So true Rafe...A lot of things are slipped past us without us even knowing it exists until it is to late.

What the citizens want and what is being done is clearly not the same thing. There is very few citizens willing to watch our Earth being raped at any price. There also is very few citizens who are willing to see the land and the animals sold off to foreigners or industy to the point of extinction. Information is clearly being kept from them.

The "decision makers" dare even pretend to understand the "value" of these animals to our Earth...and it has nothing to do with science or money.

Hey, what about the pipeline coming down to Kitmat from the Alberta Oilsands. Or the enormous oil tankers "set" to negotiate the Inside Passage on the Central Coast of B.C. Which incedently is an impossible feat for even a sober captain... Will this initiative happen before we have anything to say about it too...??

Industry and government leaders have little respect to the things that matter. Do they even consider really, the future of both our Earth or our Children...

Rafe, you are a person who is not afraid to speak the truth. Brave you are, and I salute you my friend. Your attempts to expose our oceans ecological collapes relative to the fish farms of B.C. is commendable...

Keep up the good work brother.

Peace Rafe,

RTB

Grumpy, right on to ALL your posts dude... Thanks for seeing the truth so clearly, and precisely... Rafe cares indeed...

Peace Grumpy

RTB

Thanks RBT for your posting. Truth is a big tent and it just isn't filled by anarchists, Green Party members or democratic socialists. There is plenty of room for other folks like Rafe who come from different perspectives. It isn't a point of having to adopt this or that ideology. The point is, do you wish to cease destroying the environment? Do you wish to preserve and extend democracy? Do you wish to rebuild community? Do you believe in solidarity and mutual aid? Do you wish to empower the ordinary person? Or do you wish the opposite of these things? If you wish to do these things then you are part of the truth. If you oppose these things then you are part of the lie.

Last week TheTyee ran an item on whether George Bush and Co. could be charged with war crimes. This week, however, we see from Rafe's article that there are far worse crimes being committed.

I know, it seems difficult at first to believe that there could be crimes that makes what those crooks in the US pale in comparison. But there are.

And, I'm taking names. Everyone of these lowlifes that are destroying the planet will be held to account, especially those "journalists" (shills)in our "free press" who are bought and paid for by those raping the planet.

If causing the death of 100,000 innocent Iraqis can be considered a War Crime, then what kind of charge is to be brought against those responsible for the hundreds of millions, maybe billions, slated to die within the next few decades as Earth readjusts its equilibrium?

Talk about a crime against humanity, there must be a special place in Hell reserved for those who crime against the Planet itself. And an even worse spot for those who new better but kept quiet because the pay was so good.

One thing though: I hope it'll even be possible to hold them to account. Most likely just staying alive will take precedence.

That's a shame. I'd have loved to pull the gallow's trap door on a couple local newspaper editors...

RTB, I would like to take issue with you on a couple of points, the pipeline, first so what, how does a strip through the bush hurt anything. And second, it has the support of many first nation communities along its path. About the line itself, the province is crossed with pipelines and transmission lines already, if you have spent any time at all out in the bush and come across these, you will see actual benefits. Wildlife grazes on the grass and bushes that grow there, some r.o.w.s are also used for cattle grazing, roads are under or beside them, allowing access for recreational activities, hunting and forest fire fighting. Now for the tankers, the tankers will be double hulled, as the new regulations since/because of the Exxon Valdez came into effect. They will be brought in by pilots familar with the area, not thier captains, and they may well be assisted by huge tugs. Its all very well to complain, as long as you stop using and benefiting from what you whine about. Everyone wants an omellette-few want to see any eggs cracked, impossible. This area, the north coast of B.C. has the highest unemployment rate in the province, thanks in a large part to those who oppose any resource extraction. The Windy Craggy mine, for one, that became the Tatshenshini-Alseck park. This staked and assayed area had over 8 billion dollars of metal in it, at a minimun, early 1990s prices, which have more than doubled. So, no jobs, no revenue to the province, and a park very, very few visit. There are people hurt by the actions and meddling of those who "know best". Always two sides, try to remember that.

anarcho said:" If you wish to do these things then you are part of the truth. If you oppose these things then you are part of the lie".

Hey anarcho...Great post my friend. Cheers to what you said...Truth is a big tent, and beautifully unique we are...

As you clearly know anarcho, times are as such people that care about our earth, and are willing to pay the price to help her, need to understand they are a part of a significant community.

All the gifts we independently have and the "sphere of influence" we have developed, needs to be brought to the table and acknowledged by those present...

I want to kindly say to "gasworks" to learn who his "enemy" is, as there is not enough time or energy for internal bickering... The state of the Earth is desperate and, as Neil Young said on his Greendale CD,..."there is much work to be done".

Peace to you anarcho

RTB

Hey climber, thanks for your post.

First, the pipeline. Look up BP pipeline closure in Alaska, and the pipeline erosion happened because there was no "blind pig" being sent down to check for problems for 15 years. Not very responsible eh climber...humans make mistakes. That leak was an obvious one dude, and it made international news. Conside the many leaks that happen in pipelines all over the world...

Also climber, there is solvents being sent in one of the 2 pipes, this is a toxic sludge capable of causing contamination whereever it seeps out...and it does seep out all the time.

The FN's that live on this land and on the Central West Coast are NOT all for the industry initiatives set before them. Perhaps a few, paid enough, are, but most are not in support of this initiative or any other coastal oil\gas initative...and they are organizing themselves as such.

An economy is evolving within the FN coastal communities, and it is beautiful. There are FN guides who show visitors this land and it's inhabitants. The FN's know that when people learn of this land, they will want to protect it. This is what the FN's are doing, and it is beautiful... We have much to learn from them as they do from us. It is a wonderful sharing of cultures and community and this is the direction many of them are going.

Tankers, well made...That is an oxymoron dude. And come on climber, are you really willing have tankers pass through this fragile, pristine, unique, primordal rainforest, which sustain and support a unique and perfect ecologies. Salmon, wolves, bears, old cedars, sea otters, whales, and not to mention our offical Olympic Mascot, the Spirit Bear, all licking oil off their bodies... Is this o.k. to you, because it will happen. You shouldn't trust mans "wisdom" quite so much...

Bed time...

Peace dude

RTB

It's just too bad you can't stretch your imagination Right to bear, (what). There is no enemy but me.

The pipelines in Canada are tested all the time, at the orders of the T.S.B.. Comparing American pipelines with ours is apples and oranges. All major pipeline accidents in Canada are public information on thier website, just type in T.S.B. Canada pipeline and it will come up. Nothing seeps out all the time, myth. these pipelines are tested constantly and because they are under pressure, nothing ever does seep, it rushes out for a short time until a fault is detected and it stops. An economy is evolving among the FNs?, hey RTB there already is one thanks, hurting but still here, a racially based federal tax dollar supported tourism industry isn't really inclusive is it now? Nor can it even begin to replace the jobs lost and never to be in logging, mining and logistics if the preservationists continue to get their way. The fact is that FNs want to share in the revenue from stumpage and royalties so that they can be independent of government, they do not want to stop it, they want it done properly, good. Now another couple of myths, the north coast is not pristine, most of the shore was logged years ago with A frame yarders, 1000-1500' from the ocean. The trees grew back so fast that people cannot tell from boats, only if they wander into the bush and see old stumps and the odd rusty cable. Tankers, why do you forsee a massive spill in the north? You can bet your left nut that the precautions here will be extreme. When was the last huge tanker disaster, '89 Exxon Valdez, thats it, and the land and sea there recovered well I see. Now tankers are double hulled, are they not? Bears, the spirit bear being just a black bear with a genetic defect, and wolves don't really spend much time in the ocean, c'mon. Fact, Prince Rupert is going to finally be a superport, taking a lot of pressure of the roads in Vancouver, for a start. Kitimat is going to have a new tanker port as well, the north is going to gain decent high paying jobs, good. Time to suck it up and understand that some eggs are going to get cracked, cause people need an omellette. You use oil that comes here across the ocean in tankers everyday, natural gas that is pumped out of Alberta everyday, why is it all right for thier enviroment to be risked to benefit you? And don't say you ride a bike, and so on and don't use it, you do, one way or another.

Couldn't happen in Canada, eh!

How about the Pembina "pipeline" spill into the Pine River near Chetwynd, Climber?
And how about this:
http://www.livingoceans.org/newsevents/pdfs/MoratoriumTankers.pdf

Maybe RTB isn't the only one wearing rose-coloured glasses my friend.

Climber, one of the great things about genuine conservatives is their notion of prudence. It is an aspect of their thinking that is worthwhile for everyone to adopt. (And remember I am from the far left!) A prudent person would be very, very, careful before embracing any of the projects you suggest, because of unforseen consequences. I think you have to respect folks like Rafe and RTB because of their caution, because it is a legitimate concern and a legitimate philosophical approach. Come on, Climber, climb in under that big tent, there is room for everyone who is sincere about preserving our environment.

Oh the fukin moratorium, brought in by David Anderson, the man who let the shit flow from Victoria into the chuck, all the while lecturing everyone else. Thats a long time back, time to reconsider, I always thought it was just about drilling in the chuck, hmmm. Anyways, accidents will happen from time to time, planes crash, ships go down, such is life, but never before has there been so much navigational and other technology and oversite.

climber,
David Anderson notwithstanding - I'll take no time to defend him for anything - can't be blamed for the municipal dunderheads of greater Victoria who are totally responsible for the sewage situation. They had the means to correct this a generation and a half ago and they chose to keep their taxes low and pretend there was no problem.

No surprise. If more than 10% of eligible voters actually turned out and got involved in municipal politics I'd be more sympathetic. The long time mayor of Saanich and sometime chair of the CRD Frank Leonard is a tire salesman for God's sake.

He, and the rest of the municipal politicians in this area have know of the problems since 1966...long before David Anderson had anything to do with the compromises this bunch of characters specializes in. Don’t hold your breath on any treatment anytime soon!

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/pipe/index.asp This is it, check it out, quite a lot of stuff here, helped me get an understanding. There is also air, sea and rail accident investigations here, B.C. Ferries (the shocking Queen of Surrey fire that they blew off as minor, actually the report here shows just how she almost burned right down) also the tragic rail accident in northern B.C. caused by gross neglect of a bridge.

From 24 Hours, by Bill Tieleman
Oil spills in Squamish this month and in Burrard Inlet in July have proven that both levels of government are tragically negligent in their duties. Only when shamed by media reports have they taken action and even then the results are just not good enough.

What's worse is that the companies responsible cannot even be forced to pay for the necessary wildlife rehabilitation!

Hard to believe but that's exactly what happened when the Hong Kong-registered ship Andre dumped 1,000 litres of fuel off Ironworkers' Memorial Second Narrows Bridge on July 4.

While cleanup crews were called in immediately to mop up the oil, it took three days before fuel-covered birds were rescued.

And after $75,000 was spent saving Canada geese, cormorants and other birds, the Andre's owners pulled the plug, saying they would not spend any more.

Amazingly, the Andre's owners are legally within their rights to do so.

Janice Dickie, executive director of the non-profit Wildlife Rescue Association, says both B.C. and Canadian laws are inadequate to deal with oil spills.

"International standards for wildlife response are not met in Canada in any way," Dickie told 24 hours. "The government just records the numbers of dead wildlife, and then determines later whether or not to fine the polluter."

"Wildlife die, ecological systems are damaged, and the polluters in Canada walk away with fines that average only $20,000 to $50,000," Dickie said. It's cheaper to be fined than to clean up your mess."

Good post Alcibiades, and anarcho. Thanks for the sights "A". I will even forget you sorta said I wear "rose colored glasses". Too funny, probably I do sometimes...peace.

climber said: "Anyways, accidents will happen from time to time, planes crash, ships go down, such is life, but never before has there been so much navigational and other technology and oversite".

That is all I am saying dude. History shows that when it comes to humans, accidents happen. Are you willing to risk this ecologically pristine area based on the intelectially limited resouces of human beings...??

By the way climber, the oil companies involved in most ventures, are States owned companies. The same people that did not send the "blind pig" down the pipeline in Alaska to check for probems in more than 15 years...inexcusable.

The "Gateway Project" is partially owned by the Chinese. Do you really think they care that much about OUR enviroment when generally, they do not care about their own...?? Suncor is an Oilsand company, and they are from the States. Because it happens in Alberta\Canada, does not mean it is from Alberta\Canada climber.

One more point my patient friend, climber, you said: " You use oil that comes here across the ocean in tankers everyday, natural gas that is pumped out of Alberta everyday, why is it all right for thier enviroment to be risked to benefit you"?

I am not suggesting MY closets are clean dude though I hope one day they are. But, they do not have to be clean to comment...I just have to care.

Peace

RTB

"My apologies for the spelling errors on my post guys...It is early (yawn)"

RTB

Anyone remember Exxon Valdes spill?
Well they still haven't cleaned up that spill/disaster as they've just walked/slinked away.
Where is/are our Ministers of Environment?
Their "big oil" shareholders are happy w/gas at a major premium! (Shareholders = no conscience or compassion

RTB, I guess you don't read my posts, I'll say it again, most of the north coast is not pristine, the shore has been logged. Further, whole towns have come and gone on the north coast, like Swanson Bay and Anyox. Pipelines in Canada are governed by Canada, regardless of who owns them, look at the TSB site I posted and educate yourself. B.C. Dude, smoke another one, the Exxon Valdez spill was cleaned up, it was like back in '89 for fuks sake. And yeah, I do remember it, talked about it earlier, yesterday.

climber
I notice you haven't addressed the Pembina spill into the Pine River and you certainly haven't mentioned what's going on in Alberta. It's true that isn't strictly a pipeline question but the pollution of the Athabaska system and the poisoning of the environment around the Tar Sands is a hell of price to pay for Alberta's prosperity.

Yes, I looked into it, cost Pembina $26 million to clean up, convicted of damaging fish habitat, fined $200k. The mayor of Chetwynd said that they could now put it behind them, shit happens, what do you want, closure of all pipelines, no new ones? Thats the only one you could pull up?, I gave you the TSB link, check it out above. Alberta, can't speak to that, haven't been there since I was a kid, but if logging gets shut down here I'm sure a hardworking guy like me could find a job there.

point is climber, you posted that pipelines in Canada were 'no problem': Implication - that the maintenance and upkeep issues are American problems and are of no concern to us. Simply not true.

The Pembina case is a direct refutation of that claim; maintenance and upkeep were neglected on that pipe line and the system didn't catch the violations until the pipeline ruptured. Mayors say things like that - it goes with the territory; like much else they say - it is meaningless.

There are quite a few similar problems on an intermittent level all across the old TCP system in Alberta and Saskatchewan - we just don't hear about the blowouts and fires. I have family farming in the area - I do. As the BC systems age there will be similar problems here, sadly.

I never once said pipelines were no problem, I posted the TSB website, have you looked at it? This new pipeline will be built with previuos accidents in mind, no? I don't mean to be flippant, but when I saw the lady talking about how it would take $300k to clean up all the birds harmed by the oil spill in Burrard Inlet, I shook my head, like my g/f said "what, are Canada geese going extinct?" Would have been better to wring thier necks and spend the money on kids or homeless people, something that made sense. Anyways, do you want to shut down all the pipelines and have no more new ones or what?

Bud, this is what you said:

As I pointed out, the testing and the website and the 'supposed' freedom of information are just not enough for a lot of people.

Resource extraction and exploitation have a hell of a bad record, in this country and around the world.
I can show you what people in the third world think of companies like Barrack Gold which are the toast of the Toronto/Calgary/Ottawa elites; and it ain't pretty.

As Ed Deak would say, when these extractive corporations begin to pay the full cost of the resources they are accessing and the full cost of the damage they may do in a crisis I might 'start' to agree with you - until then, no way.

Obviously we can't shut down the pipelines unless we tear up the NAFTA. Some might think that would be a good idea. In the meantime, I won't pretend that corporations give a damn about anything except profits: not you, as an employee and not me as a citizen consumer.

There should be no more pipelines shipping oil from the tar sands until Alberta comes to grip with the fact that that single province creates 1/3 of all the atmospheric carbon produced in the whole country - there is no free ride.

Since my record as Environment Minister has been questioned I feel obliged to reply. I was Environment Minister, for all intents and purposes, in 1979. At that time no one was talking about global warming or any of the problems we now associate with that term. The damage to the ozone layer may have been identified over New Zealand but if it was, itr was past my ability to do anything. No one was talking about melting icebergs, whales were just coming on the radar and there was no talk of decimation of the ocean's preditors. There were no Atlantic Salmon fish farms in BC and aquaculture was generally confined to oyster strings in Desolation Sound.
The issues I faced involved pulp mill effluent, protection of fresh water habitat, uranium mining and wolves attacking ranchers' cattle.
During that year I finished the negotiatoions for the Salmonid Enhancement Program and signed the deal with the Federal Minister, Romeo Leblanc; I negotiated a deal with the mayor of Seattle which prevented them from raising the Ross dam and thus saved the Skagit River, one of the most beautiful trout and rafting streams in the world; I placed a moratorium on the government killing wolves which they had been doing with dangerous chemicals; I placed a moratorium on uranium exploration and mining untll a commissioner I appointed, Dr David Bates could report.
To end on a lighter note which might not have been so light, I had another interesyting problem. A Soviet space vehicle - Skylab I think - was hurtling to earth and its path took it directly over Vancouver. If it had landed here it would have caused considerable damage and no doubt many deaths. I had to ponder what to do and I can tell you I had no ideas. Finally one of my officials and I, looking at the size of Greater Vancouver compared to the rest of the places it might land decided that to try an evacuation, on short notice, given our appalling civil defemce plans, would be wrong. We did nothing and the lab landed in the Australian desert.
I believe that I discharged my duties as Environment well.

C'mon Rafe, comparing the provincial Liberals to French pre-war aristocracy and anti-Semitism is absurd. I know you like to rattle on about this fish farm thing but I suggest using humour instead of shock tactics. Let's ridicule the Liberals into abandoning their current policies toward fish farming. I suspect it'll be more effective than the current Green tactics of exaggerated consequences and alarmism. Greens are undermining their own credibility with silly claims of The End is Nigh.

As for the Campbell's Liberals, let's not forget some of their Green victories. The biggest being Britannia Mine. They've finally cleaned up that disaster after 30 years of successive governments who ignored it or swept it under the rug. As you probably know Britannia was one of BC's biggest environmental messes. And heaven forbid, the Liberals got the job done using a P3. No wonder the Greens and Left are sweeping this success under the rug.

This is our, the citizens of BC who have to stand up and be a force against this bought & paid for poor excuse of a Premier Gordon Campbell let alone a man!
He gets caught in the "Legislature Scandal" BC Rail ($1,000,000,000 profits to BC Citizens a year), Privatization of BC's Crown Corporations http://www.citizensforpublicpower.ca/ October 14th 2006 a day of high sleaze!
BC Ferries just another of many corporate welfare bums!
What about our raw logs going over to US mills?
So much corruption, this is what is killing BC!
ALRT South American slaves brought in to work 12+ hrs a day for $5. an hour and being housed @ the (in)famous 2400 Court Kingsway.
No mention in/on the Canwest media, why?
What happened to the inquiry of Queen of the North sinking?
So far nothing in Canwest media's so called "free" press & Global TV?
A fed up taxpayer!
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/04/20/CampbellMisledPublic/
The NDP's last year in office had A surplus topping $1.5 billion. That is what the figures in the binder recorded for the fiscal year 2000-01, the last full fiscal year of NDP government.

Thanks for being, Rafe.

I'm pleased to see this article from Rafe.

Now, how do we, we all should wonder, effect change when our political system is largely one bought by the highest (or most connected) bidder. Just look at "principles mean nothing" David Emerson for one of the more recent examples -- an old-school economics wonk, joining forces with another (Harper) to drive the same ol' agenda regardless of what evidence lays before us.

The old-school types currently connected to politics can't be relied upon to drive meaningful change - they don't believe it necessary, or don't care.

With no one in government interested, willing, and powerful enough to effect change, the the dangers Rafe (and many others) warn of will get closer and worsen.

I've thought that a change in political system is the only avenue for salvation - some form of proportional rep would permit environmentally concerned Canadians to finally have some representation and voice - but will such change happen soon enough to matter?

Harper isn't a 'brave' Prime Minister - he won't bring about such political reform and thus engineer his own party's defeat (and the undoing of his own brand of conservatism within said party).