I have strong doubts that paedophiles can be "cured", although I do agree that it is a sickness akin to sociopathy or hard-core drug addiction. I don't understand it, and have no direct experience with it beyond one creepy experience when I was followed around by an elderly man in a shopping mall as a kid, but I am skeptical about "treatment" programs that claim to be able to re-mold what is obviously a deeply-rooted and chronic dysphoria impacting a man's affective life and development. Men who cross that line will do so again, and should be incarcerated (and segregated from the general prison population). And let's be clear - we're talking about true paedophilia, not attraction to pubescent or adolescent minors, which is a whole other can of worms, the true criminality of which is highly dubious.

I'm also skeptical about the viability of knee-jerk solutions involving castration (anatomical or chemical). Some paedophiles in the U.S. are given the choice of chemical castration (a misleading term: they are given regular injections which halt their production of testosterone, thereby diminishing their sex drive). In interviews, some "recovered" paedophiles have said how this has "freed them from their demons" etc. If it helps, fine, but there are other issues here, and some of them go well beyond sex. A non-sexual paeodophile will still gravitate towards opportunities for potentially exploitative affective relationships with children.

The eroticization of children is an ancient sub-theme in virtually every major culture, and not just in the Middle and Far East. We have this subtext in our culture as well, and I would argue that much adult heterosexual female adornment today is unconsciously structured to push the kiddie-flesh button - that is to say, hetrosexual women engage in self-infantilization aimed at provoking the sublimated attraction to the innocence of hairless and childlike flesh. Self-infantilizing modes of behaviour and speech common among young hetero women complete the image. Think of Britney Spears prancing in her schoolgirl outfit to the lyrics "Oops I Did It Again" and you get the idea.

I'm not by any means celebrating erotic infantilization as an expression of "pan-sexual cultural diversity" (although some on the radical deconstructionist Left have done so, and still do), but I'm saying we can no longer afford to be naive about human sexuality. It has its perversities, and can be a deeply destructive force in an individual's life, as well as a source of regeneration and joy. Unfortunately, our institutions (judicial, educational, religious) have failed to deal with human sexuality in an adequate manner in the past, and that has left the door open to radical liberalism, which has scooped up constituencies among the walking wounded of the sexual political landscape. If you think I'm exagerrating, think of the early battles within the North American gay community over whether NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) constituted a legitimate part of the "queer" movement. Luckily sanity prevailed and NAMBLA was disavowed and marginalized...but it was a close call, and the radical ideologues were certainly able to tilt the debate in the direction of insanity and disaster for a time.

It makes me so ill that this type of thing goes on and the courts have a revolving door policy.
I have one solution: castrate the sons o bitches.
And all you do-gooders out there, I have heard your weak arguements about pampering them so many times that I just laugh now when I hear them.

I remember NAMBLA. They are still out there, going strong with servers in the Netherlands, publishing their kiddie porn to members.

I got up close and personal with a pedophile. He was my father-in-law. I pushed everyone in that family to confess, and put the bastard in jail.

So the outcome was, after finding that he was going after other children, besides his own two sons, he was sent to jail for 18 months and now has to report into the psychiatry part of the Royal Ottawa Hospital EVERY week.

Eighteen lousy months for destroying his children mentally, sexually, and made it so they never trust anyone again.

In fact, it got to the point where my husband and I divorced because he was stuck in those helpless days, and decided to identify with the aggressor (his father) and he began to batter me.

These boys/men who are sexually abused are usually damaged for LIFE. You'd think the courts would treat the one who abused them in the very same manner.

I have sat down with Dr. John Bradford, leading psychiatrist at the Royal Ottawa, who deals with every single pedophile in Canada (if he can). He has a large body of research and is of the idea that somehow we can treat pedophilia, and that yes, it IS a psychiatric problem.

I asked him once, "So, can you cure them?" and he looked me square in the face and said "No."

This is the LEADING Canadian Psychiatrist who has spent his entire career doing research on pedophilia. He has done every single measurement possible, including inventing new ways, to crack the shell of these men (they are mostly men) to see what makes them tick so he can effectively shut down those mechanisms, behaviours, and desires.

Alas, we are still no closer to stopping this behaviour and stop it we must. If you look at the abused and listen to their shattered adult lives then you know that pedophilia must be eradicated.

Regardless if it is some quirky evolutionary thing, or whatever else a sympathizer can come up with, it is still a killer of human dreams.

You can't cure it. Whether it's caused by childhood abuse, faulty mental wiring or bad karma, you can only control it and limit the harm it does to others, which the justice system has signally failed to do.

I'd go for chemical (or in the case of child molestors or murderers, violent, painful physical) castration. It may violate the rights of the pedophile, but better that than having them let loose to wreak havoc on the next generation and perpetuate the abuse.

I think Mair's suggestion is a good one. I've thought and studied quite a bit about child sexual abuse, and it seems to me that it is also a social problem in addition to be a compulsion. The social problem is that society's attitudes do not protect children adequately. Caring community members and teachers do not have the ability to easily intervene if they see a child in the community being abused. Now, of course no one wants to have to deal with false accusations, but we have to realize that children are literally owned by their parents and have almost no power, and no knowledge of the resources that do exist for them, if someone within their family is abusing them. We know that most child abuse is perpetrated by a family member, and that most of the perpetrators are men, who are often at the top of the power hierarchy within a family. We need to have an easier way to let authorities children that are not thriving emotionally and seem to have been abused, for interview and help in a caring and appropriate way that is sensitive to the needs of the family and child. Currently, the child has to disclose abuse in no uncertain terms in order for them to recieve help, and may still be released back to the care of their abuser in an environment completely controlled by him. This creates a barrier to getting help for children who clearly need it.

Frankly, I'd take a similar line to Mair's about spouse batterers. If someone has a repeat history of assaulting their spouse(s), they need to recieve treatment residentially or in close supervision until they can be certified to no longer be at risk, and all their partners should be notified.
Yes the legal and forensic mental health system should be involved, but additionally, we need to be empowered as neighbours, extended family and friends to help children as well.

There is only one cure. It can be fast or it can be short. But there is only one cure. Death. The people who commit such crimes need to be put to death or restrained from ever having access to the world ever again. Death fast or death slow. But death either way.

I couldn't agree more with Rafe that child molesters need to be moved from our revolving-door justice system to the mental health-care system where they can be kept as long as necessary, which in many, if not most, cases would be for life.

But I am a bit saddened to hear someone like Rafe, who has been an outspoken advocate for the mentally ill and has had his own well known experiences with mental illness, refer to child molesters as 'sickos'. Yes, pedophiles are mentally ill individuals who are a serious danger to children and must be removed from mainsteam society. But would you refer to a person with any other form of mental illness as a "sicko", with all the contempt, disgust and dehumanization that implies? I somehow doubt it.

It is impossible to empathise with men in the grip of such an ugly compulsion, but a little compassion (which is not the same as empathy) goes a long way in any conversation about how to protect society from their behaviour.

Well, like my Italian grandmother says 'it takes an entire village to raise a child.'

Maybe to become a parent you need to go through a screening process. Now there's a good way to find pedophiles. A lot of them get married to women, have families, and use that as a shield and an outlet for their perverse needs.

I say, licenses for potential parents and psych evals to make sure that child is in now way in danger of having a pedophile for a father. (or mother, but VERY VERY rare.

That's nuts - I can just imagine what the ideologues will do with any system built on government-mandated "parenthood licenses".

Look, it's a nasty thing when it happens, but its not that pervasive that we need to upturn all norms related to family and professional life. What we need are savvy recruitment practices for all organizations providing services to young families and children (from the Boyscouts to school boards to religious congregations) to help profile and identify offenders. And if we're going to weed people out, we have to know what we're doing. We can't just target every man who happens to be an introvert, or who talks with a lisp, or who stikes us as somehow different or odd. There's a lot we need to learn about paedophilia before we can presume to start screening the general adult male population.

Otherwise your solution will take us back to the days when male civil servants were subjected to the RCMP's "fruit machine"...in which innocent male citizens in good standing were apprehended, confined, had their penises hooked up to electrodes, and then had their relative "stimulation response" levels gauged while being shown pornography featuring naken men and women. F**K THAT.

My comments are from neither the left nor the right, but from the position of a middle-aged male who was repeatedly molested at five years of age by a neighbour.

I've moved on from the experience, damaged to some degree, but certainly not broken. I do know men who haven't been able to get past their experiences at the hands of pedophiles. They were tainted at an early age, and today their families bear the brunt of a lifetime of unresolved guilt and pain.

I know that if my son was ever molested, the offending pedophile's body would never be found. Must be some of that residual anger so common among victims... that, and a complete lack of faith in the current method of dealing with these predators.

I discount entirely the opinions of academics and political do-gooders who want to treat these people nicely, feel sorry for them, and protect their rights to wander freely among us.

What do they really know about the true impact of a pedophile's crimes?

They know absolutely nothing.

At some point we need to put aside our desire to create a just and peaceful society that caters to the needs of everyone, and cut out the cancers that threaten it.

We've reached that point, and pedophiles are a cancer.

Pedophiles are criminally insane, proven untreatable for the most part. Upon conviction they should be detained in provincial or federal hospitals for life with no passes, paroles, nor pardons. The cost to warehouse them in such a manner is minute compared to the cost society pays for their actions.

DannyHazard, I believe you, a personal event in my life, confirms what you say. I think the Witnesses are very dangerous people and i believe investigated, but not in BC where polygamy and child sex is the norm in South Eastern BC!

Religious sects hide the true nature of the beast and must be stamped out. We can not have one law for religius sects and another for the general population.

It is impossible to empathise with men in the grip of such an ugly compulsion, but a little compassion (which is not the same as empathy) goes a long way in any conversation about how to protect society from their behaviour.

People who sexually abuse children or who rape, torture, murder or otheriwse irreparably damage other human beings don't deserve compassion. That's reserved for their victims. I don't care if they had a shitty childhood, or if God told them to do it, or if they got a message from the little green aliens controlling their brains. There's a world of difference between mental illnesses like schizophrenia, OCD, bipolar, autism and those with dangerous mental issues like psychotics and sociopaths who get pleasure from causing pain to others. People like that should be locked up for life. As Elsinore says, the cost of incarcerating them is minimal compared to the damage they do loose.

Agreed. Where is the compassion for the society who would be harmed by letting dangerous predators free to hurt more people?

I agree that all these sickos should be locked up for life. Why is property more important than children's lives?????

I am sorry to say, but most dangerous paedophiles are bisexual men like Clifford Olson. They should be receiving long sentences like in US, 444 years and so on. I heard that in some private prisons in US they use 2 years treatment for those perverts. If they stop that voluntary program, they have to start from the beginning. It is a simple mechanism measuring excitement of the prisoner when he can see children on the screen. Excitement triggers 50,000 Volts shock to his bum. After some training those Pavlov responses are fading and he could be released, because even thought of the underage partner causes involuntary jolt, when he is not even connected to that electric chair. I recommend to use that kind of "treatment" in Canada, to all who consider release from jail. In Canada we are all too tolerant to various deviations and instead of protecting children we feel sorry for the perverts.

uhm I guessmy problem would be whhat is a pedophile? anyone who has sex with a pre-pubescent person certainbly is, but what about with sexually developed 13-year olds? I don;t know that's a little dangerous to call a pedophile I think.

Personally II found as I got older what constituted too young has changed uopward - i.e. when I was 25, 14 yaer ols looked too young to my eyes, at 30 20 year olds look young and now at 40-ish even 22-year olds look like kids to me.

So yeah anything with a child that can proven beyond a doubt, kill 'em as far as I'm concerned, barring that castrate them. I'm tempted to sa=yt it's like being gay (genetic) but coming from a family where incest and abuse occurred in the previous generation I think there is a lot of learned responses to sexuality - maybe difficuly to cure them with the current methods, but perhaps in the future they can be fixed.

It's a hard thing - if anyone ever molested any child I would have, or hell if I even knew them or their parents, I'd be there ready to torture and kill the perpetuator. Especially if it was my child - I have no idea how these parents can keep their composure in the face of these predators.

MyBrainIsOnFire- you ask how can a parent not kill the person who molested their child? Simple- many times the abuser is a trusted loved one, some one who supports you in other areas of your life. That’s the kick in the teeth part, here is this person who is a part of your life, but their harming your child. What to do? Well, personally I can say that the urge to kill the abuser is there, but rational thought does take over. But then it wasn't my child, just my baby sister. Did I ever leave my child alone with this abuser? No.
But back to what Rafe was saying, he is correct in that we need to change the laws regarding child molesters. After talking extensively with a former prison guard who created and ran his own therapy program for sexual predators, and having lived through the fall out of childhood sexual abuse (and no I was not a victim- just a victim by proxy, what Rafe is proposing makes sense. We can't measure the human cost of sexual abuse, but it has to be a lot more than it would cost to put this guys away until a doctor says they can come out.
Another thing- what is it with all the calls for castration? Sexual offenders don't need "sexual excitement" to molest children- fingers, and other objects work just as good. And unless you're suggesting that we cut these guys hands off as well- I really don't see the point of castration.

I'm a little disturbed by the reactionary responses people have to this suggestion. In our society, there is no doubt that pedophilia is sociopathic, but pedophiles are not animals. The whole point of a justice system, when functioning correctly, is that it can deal with even the most heinous crimes. I agree that maybe some pedophiles should never be let out or prison, but death and castration are cruel punishments that we should not inflict on anyone, ever, regardless of what they've done.

And, just to bring in some much needed cultural relativism, I'd like to point out that pedophilia was very common in many ancient societies, including Ancient Greece. Moreover, there are many, many more recent examples of societies where marriage at the age of 12 was not at all uncommon. The poitn is that, while in our society pedophilia is clearly sociopathic, it is not absolutely so.

what to do with pedophiles? pretty simple question really: cut their balls off and pull their tongues out.

cmcl14 said, "...but pedophiles are not animals".

Hi "c", I appreciate your imput to this thread dude, but important point here, do not forget WE ALL ARE ANIMALS. Humans are not separate, more important, or less important than other species, but of equal "value" to Mother Earth... We are all of one heart.

Now, lets deal with this human problem\sickness...

Peace man,

RTB

Raif is right on with this one. Pedos are mentally ill, and should be placed institutions for the mentally ill, forever, if need be. It is ridiculous to put sociopaths in jail. It is even more ridiculous to let them out when their "punishment" is up - out into the world where they can pick on more children. One thing we have to get rid of is the whole notion of punishment, which in itself is a symptom of sociopathy. Some people are dangerous and need to be put out of circulation, permanently, period. Sado-masochistic crap like "punishment" has nothing to do with it.

How long will it be before a pedophile claims their incarceration violates the Charter because it is their sexual orientation (a protected area). One reason the committee developing that section of the charter omitted sexual orientation was because the term includes over 20 recognized orientations, including bestiality. The committee voted 22-2 to omit orientation and that is what all the provinces ratified.
The Dutch judiciary recently allowed the pedophile party in that country to continue with their political activities, which include goals like reducing the age of consent to 8, porn on daytime TV, and elimination of criminal penalties for child sex. The man who killed a little girl in Toronto a few years ago admitted that he got all revved up watching child porn on his computer. We need to rid cyberspace of this scourge before we can make a dent in this problem.

Bisexual does not equal pedophile. Neither does homosexual. Hundreds of thousands of adults are happily bi or gay and have not the slightest sexual interest in children, contrary to what the religious right would have their followers believe. Olson is a psychopath who is also a pedophile - totally different category.

Thanks for clarifying that, Rhea. I'm glad someone else did. I argued myself hoarse trying to enunciate that distinction during the spate of church sex scandals that hit the fan a few years ago.

Thank God that the era of demonizing anything which deviates from the "acceptable" bourgeois template of mediochre missionary-position man-on-top nail-her-down vanilla hetero-sex is over (at least for us in the modern developed world).

Nightbloom says:

We DO know a lot about pedophilia and there are measures. Are you going to go tell Dr. Bradford and many other highly professional psychiatrists that they don't know how to develop measures to at least gauge the risk?

Please, the amount of human lives damaged from this kind of behaviour, and other types of violence against children who do not have rights, seems to me like a pretty good reason to screen potential parents NOT the entire male population.

I know the damage it does to people. I lived up close and personal to it and believe me, it's worth preventative measures.

My suggestion is not crazy. It's a response to the fact that pedophilia cannot be cured (thus far) and also to the severity of the crime.

Pedophilia's path of destruction stays with the VICTIMS for their ENTIRE life.

How do you propose to screen potential or suspected paedophiles, exactly--? How precisely will adult male citizens in good standing and without a criminal record or history of sex crimes be profiled--? How will institutions be obliged to respond to this new regime (i.e. school boards with male staff members, etc.)--?

I'm not opposed to the notion in principle. I'm just very leery of forces that are all-too-happy to foment yet another Sex Panic. These have never achieved their desired ends, and have always been used by authority structures to target non-conformist elements.

That is possibly the stupidest quote i've ever read on this site...although it does insult animals to equate them with pedophiles.

As for what to do with them, I think we need a REGISTRY. Put their pics and names and addresses online so I can protect my family from them.

Oh an let's take George Carlin's idea:

sex criminals. Completely incurable, you got to lock them up. You could outlaw religion and in most cities sex crimes would disappear in a couple of generations. But we don't have time for rational solutions! Much easier to fence off another rectangular state. Rectangular states are cheaper to fence, saves the taxpayers money, you know? This time Wyoming. But only for true sex offenders. We're not going to bother consenting adults who liike to dress up in leather boy scout uniforms and smash each other in the head with ballpeen(?) hammers while they take turns blowing their cat. There's certainly nothing wrong with that. It's a victimless hobby. And think of how good the cat must feel! No, we're only going to lock up rapists and molesters. Those hopless romantics. Who're so full of love they can't help getting a little of it on you. Usually on your leg. You take all of these heavy breathing fun seekers, and you stick them in Wyoming. And you let them suck, ****, and fondle, you let them blow, chew, sniff lick whip gobble and cornhole each other, until their testicles are whistling 'Oh Come All Ye Faithful'! And, and you turn on the cameras and you've got The Sperm Channel! And don't forget our corporate sponsor, we're going to let Budweiser put little logo patches on the rapist's pant right here, 'This Bud's for you'!

two words:

GENERAL POPULATION

'nuff said

Elliot wrote:

Maybe we should harvest their organs before they expire? It could become a block party staple!

I have a friend who was molested as a child by one of his uncles. My friend forgave his abuser. He does not see his uncle as a monster: he sees him as a man who is in the grip of a serious disorder ... a severe compulsion for which he requires lifelong treatment.

But ... maybe my friend suffers from Stockholm syndrome? Maybe he needs to be sent away to a re-education camp to learn how to handle a pitchfork? It disturbs me that he thinks his uncle deserves his sympathy. Maybe he should castrate his uncle himself!

For a slightly different perspective, see this:

http://www.dianefarrisgallery.com/artist/hood/interview.html

For example the defence every time there is a billboard which is offensive to women's groups, that images don't do anything. The Joico Hair Product ad was a case; a huge billboard series of two attractive and very young girls pulling on their underpants. The defence was that this ad would not encourage men to harm girls, that this ad did nothing to hurt the equality of girls and women in our society. The billboards stayed up. Do you think that a picture of two 15 year old boys pulling on their underpants would not have stayed up there for 5 minutes. If images don't cause or reinforce social constructions why is advertising imagery so successful.

Obviously this so-called "artist"(Cherry Hood) is totally crazy. Society in general has no responsibility for or complicity in any of this. All paedophiles (most of whom are family members, step-brothers, step-sisters or older boyfriends) are just mollycoddled sickydoodles who need their neck bolts surgically removed.

nightbloom:

Gosh, we can screen for terrorists (ya know, the bomb-throwing kind). And we seem to be quite good at it (according to the ones who do the catching). So we shoudl be able to screen for pedophile kind of terrorist, don't ya think?

'I have a friend who was molested as a child by one of his uncles. My friend forgave his abuser' he should have cut his balls off and pulled his tongue out.

RickW - but you haven't ansered the question: How?

Rhea posted that homosexual (or bisexual) does not equal pedophile. While that is true it is simplistic. Researchers have examined which orientations are more likely to have pedophilic tendencies. Freund (Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto) found that 36% of incarcerated pedophiles were homosexual by orientation and that they had the highest recidivism rate (Fruend & Watson 1992). Doll et al (1992)surveyed 1001 gay men and found that 37% had been molested, 94% by older gay men (far higher than the abuse rate reported by heterosexual men). Abel et al (1987, Emory Univeristy, Georgia) surveyed non-incarcerated pedophiles and found that heterosexual pedophiles had an average of 19.8 victims, while homosexual pedophiles averaged 150.2 victims. Cameron examined the results of 19 studies and found that homosexuals were 12 times more likely to offend against children and bisexuals were 16 times more likely.
The stats clearly indicate that pedophilia is more of a problem in non-heterosexual orientations, even though there are numerically more heterosexual pedophiles.

Interesting numbers - I've seen them before, and they seem credible (except for the 37% associated with gay men who report being molested...seems incredibly high to me, but maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones).

I think we need to look at a few co-factors which might be skewing the numerical results. "Hetero" paedophilia is easier to hide and is less likely to be reported owing to host of factors (latent social acceptability, its prevalence among family members as opposed to strangers, the passivity of its victims, the "complimentarity" of the victims' heterosexuality to the nature of the victimization which may provide a framework for dealing with the victimization outside of the justice system which is not acceptable to, say, heterosexual male victims of homosexual paedophiles); and the higher number of victims-per-paedophile can be correlated to the availability of potential victims in same-sex environments like cadets, boy scouts, and a host of other such "opportunities" for predators.

So I think there's more to those numbers than meets the eye.

I have no sympathy for pedophiles. NONE.

For the fuckers who are out there who have yet to commit their first offense against a child who are hiding out in a hetero life just about to have their first child, I say,

SCREEN THEM. You need one psychiatrist to run their diagnostics and assess the risk. Depending on the amount of risk, you follow a protocol to follow these people, having them report in for regular checkups, just like you do when you go to the doctor, only make it MANDATORY.

And dammit, enough coddling.

Do you know that pedophiles are separated out from the regular jail population?

The amount of suffering and the cost to society of these children growing up who have been sexually abused is HUGE!

Save your money and put it into SCREENING instead of just idly sitting back waiting for pedophiles to commit their crimes.

It's just not that difficult an idea.

But how, OneWomanArmy--? And what exactly are we looking for--?

This is to all you pedophiles...You think only of little kids and ways that you can trick and connive to get access to them. You destroy lives all because you needed to fulfill a hard-on. In all reality you can't have a relationship with a real woman, because deep down you are pathetic little scum that can't speak up and be a man , so you choose to inflict a lifetime of pain and hurt on an innocent child.You never should be allowed to live after touching a child in a sexual way. They should give the death penalty for the first offense because we know there will be a 2nd, a 3rd and so on. Sending a convicted child molester out into a community is like having a recovering alcoholic work at a bar.As long as a pedophile has any contact with a child, he will strike again.If a man ever put his hands on my child,I would get to him first.I wouldn't wait for Maine to "slap his little weiner" and send him merrily on his way. If I could make the laws.... Put the pedophile in a room with the childs uncles, brothers,and father and let them rape him and totally degrade him. Thats a real AMEN

That's not contradictory in the least...?

The one thing Im sure of Rafe is this, if the bleeding heart Liberals and their cohort NDP’ers get back into power nothing will change to stop or apprehend these sick bastards, if anything they will ease up on the enforcement, that’s the chicken sh!t Liberal-NDP way.

Nightbloom,

The psychiatrists that have dedicated their lives to studying pedophilia have a pretty good idea of what diagnostics to use to determine a potential at-risk pedophile.

And I'm sure it wouldn't take long to conceptualize classes or degrees of risk and have appropriate ways to deal with each degree of risk.

You keep asking HOW, and I'm telling you HOW. It's not rocket science.

You can get them right at the time of birth of their first child, test them, and get this information.

You see, it's a cost effective model. I'm sure it's a lot cheaper than the hordes of abused boys and girls who are constantly presenting developmental problems in school, medical problems, psychiatric problems etc.

Damn, my solution is CHEAP and easy compared to the huge cost to social systems.

Also, considering all the comments on this topic are generally in agreement that pedophiles are the scum of the earth, I think my idea would gather incredible public support.

I also would support life sentences for pedophiles as well, because that's the kind of damage they do to the children they molest, rape, maim, torture, and kill.

I don't care if pedophilia was OK in ancient Greece. We're not in ancient Greece. We are HERE and NOW and have no tolerance for our children being abused in that manner.