Foreign Policy: Harper's Downfall?
On Kyoto and Afghanistan, he backed Bush. What if the US attacks Iran?
Public opinion is shifting.
"George W. Bush won" -- that's how Melanie Kirkpatrick of the Wall Street Journal described the outcome of the Canadian election in January.
Stephen Harper has always supported the Bush administration. In March 2003, he co-authored an article in Kirkpatrick's paper criticizing the Canadian government's decision to stay out of the Iraq war. The following month, in a speech to the House of Commons, he said:
We in the Canadian Alliance support the American position today on this issue because we share its concerns and its worries about the future of the world if Iraq is left unattended…In an increasingly globalized and borderless world, the relationship between Canada and the United States is essential to our prosperity, to our democracy and to our future…
Of course, many reasonable people believed Iraq possessed at least some chemical and biological weapons. And few Canadians would question the desirability of good relations with the United States. What was most striking about Harper's speech was not its content but its evangelical tone, which comes through -- even on the written page -- in the closing sentence:
Mr. Speaker, in the days that follow may God guide the actions of the President of the United States and the American people; may God save the Queen, her Prime Minister and all her subjects; and may God continue to bless Canada.
The "new" Stephen Harper
During the past year, Harper has eschewed such rhetoric and portrayed himself as a moderate and secular conservative -- one who supports mainstream Canadian values and institutions, including social tolerance, environmental protection and public health care. He has muted the fundamentalist Christians within his caucus. And he has continued the strategy, first deployed during the election campaign, of dominating the news agenda with a daily drumbeat of clear, relatively innocuous and easily-attained objectives. With the Liberals leaderless and incoherent, Harper's only real opposition is the NDP -- who've only 29 seats and few resources.
Harper clearly believes he'll win a majority in the next election, which is probably just eight to 10 months away. But such confidence is misplaced -- if only because foreign policy could dominate the next campaign.
Foreign policy and Canadian elections
It is a basic tenet of Canadian political science that foreign policy doesn't matter in elections. In fact, it hasn't mattered since 1988 when Brian Mulroney used the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement to drive a wedge between his Progressive Conservatives, on the one side, and the Liberals and NDP on the other. Foreign policy issues are usually too complex, under-reported or distant in their implications to register with most Canadians.
Stephen Harper adheres to the view that foreign policy lacks electoral significance and, for this reason, feels safe following the Bush administration's lead. He made a lousy deal on softwood lumber, allowing U.S. forest companies to keep $1 billion in illegal gains. He agreed to share surveillance information from the Northwest Passage with the Pentagon without receiving recognition of Canada's sovereignty claim in return. He has moved towards participation in missile defence, taken sides in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and failed to protect Afghan detainees from torture. But how many people know this? And how many really care?
Still, three foreign policy issues could soon achieve unusual degrees of prominence. When the "new" Stephen Harper lets the mask slip on these issues, exposing his neo-conservatism, Canadians will notice -- and they likely will care.
Climate change: A tipping point
Climate change is the greatest challenge facing humanity in the 21st century. In the 200 years since industrialization -- a mere geological millisecond -- we've increased the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by about 35 percent, with a third of that in the last four decades. Nine of the last 10 years have been the warmest years on record. Over the same period, 2.3 million km² of Arctic sea-ice have been lost. The Greenland ice sheet is melting too, probably irrevocably, and when this occurs sea levels will rise by seven metres worldwide. Droughts, hurricanes and tornadoes are increasing in frequency and severity. Millions of species face extinction as habitats change faster than they can adapt and evolve. Human health is also at risk: according to the World Health Organization, millions of people are already threatened by increases in malaria, water-borne disease and malnutrition that are directly linked to our changing climate.
Canada is on the frontline. Melting permafrost is imposing huge costs on northern communities. Glaciers are shrinking, threatening prairie farmers and municipal water supplies. In Ontario, hotter and more humid summers are straining electrical grids and contributing to heavy smog. Residents of the Atlantic provinces find themselves exposed to hurricanes and tropical storms. Here in British Columbia, warmer winters and drier summers are contributing to forest fires, declining salmon stocks and an epidemic of pine beetles.
In the face of this monumental crisis, the Harper government is mimicking the Bush administration, which, for years, defied mainstream scientific opinion by denying outright that climate change was even happening. The Conservatives have downplayed the scale of the problem, rejected the modest emission reduction targets of the Kyoto Protocol, advocated voluntary measures rather than a regulatory approach and eliminated programs designed to promote energy conservation.
There is little doubt that future generations will regard Harper and others as morally culpable for failing to act in the face of clear and present danger. But the prime minister is calculating that climate change is not yet an electoral issue, at least not for those Canadians who might vote for him. He is wrong. Media coverage of climate change is trending upwards and, as a result, Canadians are finally clueing in.
Over the last decade, the Toronto Star printed an average of 242 articles per year that mentioned climate change. That number rose to 422 articles in 2005 and, at the current rate, will exceed 500 articles in 2006. The more conservative Globe and Mail has a ten-year average of 180 articles, with 327 in 2005 and, at the current rate, will run 335 articles in 2006. Both Time magazine and National Geographic recently ran cover stories on the climate change crisis. Last month, even the Vancouver Sun ran a satellite photograph on its front page, altered to show how sea-level rise resulting from climate change will inundate much of the Lower Mainland within two or three centuries.
Social scientists speak of "tipping points" in public awareness. When a tipping point is reached, seemingly deep-rooted attitudes can change very quickly. When the tipping point on climate change arrives, opinions will change across Canadian society. Conservative voters concentrated in rural and suburban areas are even more vulnerable to climate change than urban elites. It will also become apparent that Canadian policymakers have been negligent on this issue, as compared to policymakers elsewhere. Almost two years ago, Tony Blair warned that climate change could be "so far-reaching in its impact and irreversible in its destructive power, that it alters radically human existence." On this all-important issue, which is poised to become an election issue, Stephen Harper is way behind the curve.
Afghanistan: mission impossible
The first Canadian soldiers arrived in Afghanistan shortly after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon: a photograph of Canadian commandos handling Afghan detainees was published on January 22, 2002. That same month, 750 regular soldiers were sent to Kandahar as part of a U.S.-led "counter-insurgency" mission. Four of those soldiers were killed by U.S. "friendly fire" before their unit returned home in July 2002.
From August 2003 to October 2005, approximately 6000 Canadian soldiers were deployed -- over five successive six-month rotations -- to serve with a UN-authorized, NATO-led peacekeeping mission in Kabul. At this point, almost all Canadian military assets in Afghanistan were abruptly returned to the non-UN-authorized, U.S.-led counter-insurgency mission in Kandahar. But that mission had become much more dangerous, with the insurgents mirroring their Iraqi counterparts in using roadside bombs. Adding fuel to the fire, heavy-handed U.S. tactics, especially the use of air power against villages, was leading to much higher levels of local resentment against foreign troops. The Canadian relocation to Kandahar was linked to a reduction in U.S. troop numbers that was driven by problems in Iraq and domestic pressures at home. The plan was to have the UN-authorized, NATO-led mission take over in Kandahar this spring, but this has been delayed -- in part because other NATO countries are concerned about the tactics used by the U.S. military.
Stephen Harper supports the U.S.-led counter-insurgency mission, and by extension those tactics. He's recently defended a detainee transfer agreement between Canada and Afghanistan that does not provide Canada with a right either to verify the condition of transferred detainees, or to oppose their onward transfer to other countries. He also seems unconcerned that our war-fighting role alongside the United States could cloud the perception of Canada as an independent actor. Nor has he evinced any concern for the dangers that our participation in the mission might bring. As Canadian Major-General Andrew Leslie warned last August: "Every time you kill an angry young man overseas, you're creating 15 more who will come after you."
Canadians have begun asking themselves, Will the counter-insurgency mission actually improve the security of Canadians and ordinary Afghans? Are Canadian soldiers risking their lives in a mission that is destined to fail? Wouldn't their efforts be better directed towards stopping genocide in Darfur, or participating in any of the 15 separate peacekeeping operations currently being conducted by the UN -- in Congo, Ethiopia and Eritrea, Kosovo, Liberia and elsewhere? Harper sought to cut off consideration of these questions when, last month, he abruptly called a vote on extending the Afghanistan mission. He's also sought to reduce the impact of casualties on public opinion by banning the media from the airfield ceremonies that welcome dead soldiers home.
At least 17 Canadians have lost their lives in Afghanistan, while many more have been wounded, some seriously. Casualty figures in the 100s are possible in the months and years ahead. Four years ago, Canadians might have tolerated such loses. Memories of 9/11 were fresh in our minds. The Bush administration hadn't yet shifted its attention to Iraq, nor squandered international sympathy by bombing villages and mistreating detainees. The limitations of counter-insurgency had not yet been reinforced. On Afghanistan, a second key foreign policy issue, Stephen Harper is again behind the curve.
Iran: The next war?
George W. Bush is in desperate straits. A failed foreign policy is on display in Iraq; an inability to lead was confirmed by Katrina; "Scooter" Libby has been indicted for perjury; "Kenny Boy" Lay has been convicted of fraud. The midterm congressional elections are just five months away, with control of the Senate in play.
It may be time for another war. Margaret Thatcher's defence of the Falklands ensured her re-election in 1983. Fifteen years later, a beleaguered Bill Clinton fired 79 so-called "Monica missiles" at Sudan and Afghanistan; a film along similar lines -- entitled "Wag the Dog" -- soon followed. The declaration of a "global war on terrorism" ensured Republican victories in the 2002 midterm elections; two years later it carried Bush to a second presidential term. Evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and of links between Saddam and Al-Qaeda, was manufactured to serve the same ends. And the use of military force abroad is one of few significant things that the president can now do, given a multitude of domestic constraints.
Bush has begun rattling sabres over Iran, referring to the country as an "outlaw regime" and explicitly threatening violence. And of course, the Iranian government is hardly composed of angels: two years ago, International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors discovered that Tehran had been trying to enrich uranium for decades. At that point, Washington began pushing for the matter to be referred to the UN Security Council, which, unlike the IAEA, has the power to impose mandatory sanctions. The U.S. needs the UN in this instance because it cannot create additional economic pressure on its own, having suspended commercial relations with Iran since the fundamentalist revolution in 1979.
European governments initially opposed sending the matter to the Security Council, because they feared Moscow would threaten to veto any stringent resolution and that the resulting deadlock might then -- as occurred with regard to Iraq -- be seized upon as a justification for war. Instead, France, Germany and Britain sought to negotiate an agreement whereby Iran would cease enriching uranium in return for membership in the WTO, access to new civilian aircraft, and a light water nuclear reactor that, although less useful for producing nuclear weapons, would serve almost as well for the production of electricity. This approach made considerable progress -- until the election last year of hardliner Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Iran's new president.
Last September, Ahmadinejad defiantly reasserted his country's right to enrich uranium. One week later, he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." The former position may have some merit; the latter clearly does not. Yet the two positions are somewhat related.
Two of Iran's neighbours -- Pakistan and Russia -- have nuclear weapons, while two others -- Afghanistan and Iraq -- are occupied by U.S. forces. And Israel, just 1500 km away, last year threatened a pre-emptive strike similar to its bombing, in 1981, of an Iraqi nuclear reactor that was under construction near Baghdad. The threat of an Israeli strike -- or, more likely, an American strike in support of Israel -- must be taken seriously. Washington has provided Tel Aviv with 500 "bunker-buster" bombs capable of penetrating up to four metres of concrete. American and Israeli forces have also tested their ability to shoot down long-range Shahab-3 missiles, the most obvious vehicle for Iranian retaliation. As early as January 2005, Seymour Hersh reported that U.S. commandos were already in Iran pinpointing underground nuclear facilities.
That Washington is involved on both sides of the affair -- stoking Iran's fears while agitating about the transgressions that these fears generate -- is reflective of a broader hypocrisy. The CIA estimates that Israel, which has never ratified the 1970 Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, possesses more than 200 nuclear warheads. The same agency can still not produce conclusive evidence that Iran, a party to the treaty, has a nuclear weapon -- as opposed to a nuclear energy -- program. Yet Iran's leaders, like Saddam before them, are presumed to be seeking weapons and have been vilified on that basis.
Bombing as election gambit?
Part of the explanation for this dichotomous approach lies in Washington's uncritical support for Israel, especially since Bush became president. Another part of the explanation is revenge. The Iranian revolutionaries revealed the limitations of American power when, in 1979-81, they were able to hold 52 hostages in the U.S. embassy in Tehran for 444 days. A third part of the explanation is fear -- that the ongoing chaos in Iraq could work to the advantage of Iran, which, like its neighbour, has a largely Shiite population.
A fourth and final part of the explanation is the usefulness that a new and very foreign enemy could provide to a beleaguered Republican Party during an important election campaign.
The UN Security Council will not authorize the use of force against Iran -- even though Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice recently made the unprecedented offer of direct talks if Tehran suspended its uranium enrichment program and re-opened its facilities to IAEA inspectors. Other countries know that Iran poses no immediate threat, and that sanctions take time to bite. They also remember how Washington relied upon a UN resolution to justify the Iraq war just four months after assuring the world that its terms provided no "automaticity." Russia is wisely insisting that any new resolution must specify that it does not authorize military action.
The Bush administration knows this, but wants to be seen -- especially by moderate Republicans and swing-voters -- to have exhausted multilateral options. In the end, the congressional election timetable and the polls are what matter. If Bush's electoral strategists deem it necessary, the U.S. will bomb Iranian nuclear facilities regardless, and justify its actions as self defence.
In international law, any use of force in self defence must be both necessary and proportionate, and no one is suggesting that Iran is anywhere close to building a nuclear bomb that is small enough to put on a missile. Nevertheless, efforts are already being made to establish a new "coalition of the willing," not to join in the raids, but to provide the diplomatic support necessary to weather the ensuing storm. Last month, Tony Blair fired Jack Straw, his experienced foreign secretary, for having publicly ruled out the use of force against Iran.
Successive Canadian governments have studiously avoided the Iran issue, except when our own citizens -- such as photographer Zahra Kazemi and academic Ramin Jahanbegloo -- have been killed or arbitrarily detained. But if Bush goes to war this fall, he'll want explicit support from Stephen Harper -- support that our prime minister is already planning to give. In April, at a press conference with her Canadian counterpart, Condoleezza Rice criticized Iran for continuing "to defy the will of the international community." Peter MacKay immediately volunteered that Canada "very, very, very strongly believes that there has to be a clear and consistent message coming from the international community." By which he presumably meant: agreement with whatever moves Rice and her cronies decide to make.
So, how will Canadians react if their government supports an illegal, premature and largely unprovoked attack on a sovereign country? Stephen Harper is betting that they won't change their votes, since foreign policy doesn't matter electorally. Yet to win a majority, the prime minister needs to maintain the fiction that he's not a clone of George W. Bush. And whether it's climate change, Afghanistan, or a new war against Iran, the most damning evidence of Harper's continuing neo-conservatism will be found, not in domestic policy, but in a slavish adherence to the foreign policies of a floundering and fading American president.
Michael Byers, author of War Law, holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. He will be speaking at the Vancouver Public Library at 7:30 p.m. on Friday, June 9 as part of the Necessary Voices series. All are welcome; admission is free. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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inkioko
5 years ago
Comments on "Foreign Policy: Harper's Downfall?"
scary stuff.....
hopefully diplomacy works out....
maybe if the yankscum does decide to attack iran and harpo toadies along, it'll wake up canada... i hope you are right... there are a lot of brainwashed ignorant canadians out there...
thank you for the thought-provoking, well written article
IAMC
5 years ago
The Euston Manifesto. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Chris H
5 years ago
"But how many people know this? And how many really care?"
There's the fundamental question. Sorry, but the price of gas seems to be much more concerning to the Canadian public. Too bad we can't seem to make some obvious links. Sigh.
hannibal
5 years ago
The obvious links must be addressed by the media.
Only a fool would vote for Harpo and his gang of misfits .
I am sure that the moron would like nothing better than to follow the Shrub right over the cliff .
Interesting stats are that as popular as the neo-cons appear to be only 1 in 3 Canadians would be willing to give the fool a majority Government .
That speaks volumes .
No,if we had an election they would in all probability be returned with an even weaker minority .
Canadians are finally waking up to the nightmare that is the neo-con Governemtn(?)
Grumpy
5 years ago
Me thinks Harper will be a one term wonder, no thanks to the Liberals and NDP, who themselves offer no real alternative. The public will be tired of him.
There is a difference between the 'Reformers' and the 'Conservatives' and the party will soon split. Already I hear murmurings of a Western 'Reform style' political party starting up.
Trouble with Canada is that our political parties represent sleaze and corruption, period. They care little for the Canadian public, only 'what's in it for me'. If Canada is truly going to survive as a whole, we must reform our government now and Harper ain't doing that.
What Harper is doing is pretending he is president Bush, a rather dim witted neo conservative, that can't see the forest from the trees.
O pity Canada, what fools we be!
Tom Lal
5 years ago
Only a fool would vote for Harpo and his gang of misfits? Well we should wake up and notice there may indeed be alot of fools around. Not long ago Harpo could barely raise enough votes to be electded dog catcher let alone Prime Minister. We now have Harper light. With his new image of moderation. It is disturbing that so many bought into the new light neo con version of reformed reform. What to me is even more worrysome is that our Liberal Party chose to hold its leadership convention in December leaving Canada undefended and open to assault with no viable opposition for a very long period of time. There is no Trudeau in the wings this time as there was when the government of Joe Clark fell. Certainly we have the NDP but Jack Layton is hardly poised to either defeat or replace Harpo. The Bloc who often form a sound oppostion on things progressive are far to busy playing Quebec cards will not be voting to bring this government down anytime soon. This means Harper and his band of Reformed have a virtual free reign to carry out mini wars on a number of disadvantaged such as gays, natives, women, etc. They are free to cuddle up to the Bush power establishment in Washington. We can only hope that the LIbs will pick a strong dynamic leader who will not be afraid to take Harper on head to head. However that remains to be seen. In the meantime buckle up I have a feeling its going to be a long and bumpy ride.
hannibal
5 years ago
Agree Grumpy:
Canada is too good to get flushed with the rest of the garbage(America)
We have already lost our ability to be 'Peace' keepers because noboby in their right mind would want us protecting them .
Harpos nose is so far up the shrubs ass it is hard to tell where he begins and where he ends .
It is a shame that the people who could,really, make a difference refuse to be soiled by politics.
Offering Gwyn Morgan a post at a buck a year does not instill me with confidence .
He would be hiring all his cronies from the oil patch . Thank God they shut that one down .
What is ,really,disturbing is that Canadians have yet to figure iut that Harpo and Co. are hard line racists who will do nothing for the FN's .
Blaming the Liberal's for every little thing is over and it won't wash .IMHO
hannibal
5 years ago
Agree Tom :
We are all alone without credible opposition .
The damage can and will be reveresed as soon as the Liberal's are returned to power .
I,a life time Liberal,sat out the last election in protest of their stupidity .
They have been punished enough and the neo's continuously blaming the Liberal's for every mistake they make has got to end .
Why the phuque it takes year to choose a new leader I have no idea .
Ignatieff has already shot himself in the foot ny supporting Harpo and his excellent Afghani adventure .
Colin
5 years ago
Got to love that “Peacekeeper†label, which really means we are going to send you someplace, where you can’t intervene and to make sure we won’t give you the equipment to do your job. The only places where traditional peacekeeping exists or may exist is the Sinai, Golan heights, Cyprus and possible the Ethiopian/Eritrean conflict. The rest do not qualify for what you are talking about.
If we go to Dafur, it means doing battle with the raiders and possibly Sudanese troops, same as the Congo, is that what you want?
Jeffrey J.
5 years ago
Excellent analysis! Literate, well written, and accurate. Harper's lack of sophistication and willingness to mimic the doomed Bush administration are all facts the Canadian public can see. Very few people are speaking out in favour of this ham-fisted performance. My worry is how much damage can Harper do before we take his keys away...
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
I don’t suppose that you donated to Volpe campaign or was he to busy smoozing with rich 11 kids?
Spare me another bout of Liberals, they are about as welcome as teredo worms are on a wooden boat. They have no credibility because they threw it away and didn’t have the guts to fight the power brokers within their own party. Time for them to repent and spend some time on the other side of the house, hopefully then some decent folks will be sort out the corruption.
I have to laugh, how have they been punished? cut off from their expense accounts for 5 months?
hannibal
5 years ago
So what is your answer Colin 4 or 5,years of the brainless neo-cons rule ?
Yea, that'd be just great !
The Liberal's were blamed for a bunch of beauracrats bungling of the Adscam effort .
Chuck Guite is not nor never was a memeber of Parliament same with the rest of the clowns who got caught .
Now these same beauacrats work for the clown Harpo .
By the way it looks like Guite will be acquitted on all charges . Oooo! looks bad for the neo-cons,hunh ?
So go ahead and vote for the all moron party .
Harpo will returned with an even weaker minority .
Only one in three Canadians say they are willing to give the jerk a majority .
jesterjogger
5 years ago
Is herr harper going to benefit from this incident in toronto on the weekend?
Are his republican spin doctors going to play the national security/fear card?
When are ordinary people who vocally disagree with neo-con policies and the corporate agenda going to be labelled as 'terrorists' by an ever expanding and unaccountable police state?
remember the war measures act.
Steve P
5 years ago
So when should Canadians be genuinely concerned about a security threat? After the bombs detonate? It concerns me when some Canadians are in such a rush to hate Bush & Harper that they disregard serious threats that arguably transcend partisan boundaries. Canada would still be a target even if Jack Layton was PM.
murdock
5 years ago
Two quotes stand out from this article:
Exciting foreign policy adventures are not the Canadian way, our military history has always stemmed from having either the mother country, United Kingdom, threatened or the original homeland(s) of many of the Canadian populace being threatened. South Africa, 1880's, had been the exception to this from our past. I suspect that Afghanistan will become another exception to prove the correct rule, about having a multi-lateral agreement - or real threat to the homeland(s) of a majority of the population of Canada.
Venturing away from this correct theme will only earn Canada more enemies, with whom we can expect only a negative response to any future contact. As those 15 relatives do their best to 'avenge' the death of their loved one - would we do any different (an eye for an eye)?
Many have begun to see this as the real battle of the future, against our collective faults. Reversing the actions of our ancestors, so that we may have decendants.
To do this will take leaders that are more like medieval merchants and less like dark age warriors.
BC Mary
5 years ago
The way Americans like their war
By ROBERT FISK
GUEST COLUMNIST - Seattle P.I. - June 4, 2006
Every Canadian should read:
http://Seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/272620_haditha04.html
steerpike
5 years ago
The Liberals are no better. They sent troops to Afganistan. They signed Kyoto yet let emissions continue to soar.
Yammer
5 years ago
I know what Robert Fisk thinks -- he thinks that global jihad against the USA is totally warranted.
A much less lazy writer would ask local Iranians, of whom there are many, what they think of prospective American intervention in Iran.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Well. That's all well & good. But it's a little early to judge Harper's foreign policy, given that he's proven to be somewhat more circumspect as the head of government than he was portrayed as when he was simply leader of the opposition. Byers makes good points about Bush...but I'm reserving judgment on the applicability to Harper. Most realists recognize that the softwood lumber deal was as good as we were going to get (and we are back in business), and Byers gets a key biographical detail wrong: Harper is not, and never was, an evangelical Christian, as Byer's clearly insinuates without actually saying. He's actually remarkably sanguine about all the hot-button policy issues you'd expect conservatives to be riled about - from abortion to homosexuality. Even if he were an evangelical Christian (let alone a fundamentalist one), we'd still have to judge him at face value, since we don't discriminate on the basis of creed here in Canada....do we, my liberal secular nihilist friends...?
The partisan political interests which brought Byers back to Canada and had him installed at UBC's Liu Centre are very evident here. And it's unfortunate that the Canada Research Chairs (on the Humanities side of things) have been used as a Liberal patronage junket, which is clearly the case here. I can't think of any other way that an academic wunderkind with such a newly minted PhD could assume a position of such prominence ahead of so many.
I'm not saying I disagree with the overall analysis, or that you won't find Mike Byers on my bookshelf....I'm just saying that Byers shouldn't dilute his message with flimsy partisanship that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Stay on message. Communicate to the unconverted, not to the choir. Accept that there are those in government ranks already sympathetic to your views.
Unless, of course, the goal isn't to influence current policy, but to begin mobilizing 'the choir' for the next election...In which case we're merely indulging in commonplace propaganda, not scholarship or journalism.
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
One of the people I work with was doing advertizing for a government program, they were told to use Groupaction, when they failed to perform, she want the contract shifted, she was told that she couldn’t, when they still didn’t perform she complained again and was told that it was a political decision to use them. It was pretty clear to a lot of people that the Liberals were bending or breaking the rules and many of the civil service are not sorry to see them go.
Funny how your ethical ministers forgot to take notes of their meetings, certainly makes it hard to charge anyone when the evidence is missing or destroyed.
I realize that not all Liberals are bad, but as a party they need to be cleansed and deeply, it will be a painful process and will take about 5 years. The Liberals are NOT the “Natural governing party of Canada†They have no special right to government, they need to earn it and they have failed to do so. The sooner you Liberals realize that point and accept the pain of detoxing the sooner you can put your party back on it’s feet.
G West
5 years ago
From Maclean's Feb 20, 2006 by Colin Campbell:
BC Dude
5 years ago
Harper and his ilk, I would hope that this party the neoconservatives will be the last Bush loving butt Kissin, bought and paid for terrorists who are trying to break up this great country my Canada as sovereign and mighty country who has been looked up to around the world as great peacekeepers!
I'd still like to know how Harper has so much power as a minority government?
Why do we do people of Canada sit back and take this crap from a person who is not even a man but a little peaon, yes man of evil
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, yea Colin :
Tinkering with a bunch of shyte that Canadians don't care about is not gonna get the all idiot party re-elected no matter how much you want it to be true.
Fact: The Liberal's are the natural governing party of Canada.Get over it .
The couple of times we have allowed the Cons into power have been disasterous for Canada.
Remeber 93'Colin ? Two Conservative members elected .
I don't give a rats ass how many times you paint the wagon this is still Reform/Alliance .
The true Conservatives have a very small voice in the Barnum and Baily party .
Catch the drift Colin ?
Yea, the toughest issue that Canadians have identifeid isn't even on the Morons agenda .
It will cost him dozens of seats come election time .
I hope and pray he is reduced to his rump in Alberta and some of BC .
Any A-hole can do what this goof has done.Which isn't much in the greater scheme of things .
Like all neo-cons Colin your short and long term memory is shot to hell .
gkam
5 years ago
Are you folk going through the Dubyafication of Canada?
You'll be sorry.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, and the RCMP and CSIS acted as agent provocateurs in this whole situtation .
Fact: The RCMP provided the necessary fertilizer for the bomb making .
Could well be that the mounties goaded these young men into doing something that normally they wouldn't by provoding enticements on the internet.
It would show big brother(America) that we have a handle on our terrorists without really having to look for any.
"Hey,we'll create our own home grown terrorists.
Arrest 'em and make us all look like hero's to Uncle Sam"
We'll provide them with the materials and knowledge on how to do it .
Capitalism
5 years ago
I think that after the arrests over the weekend, Canadians should be very wary of the threats that exist within our border.
You arrogant Liberals just don't get it. Many go far as to make excuses for these people that enter our country, capitalize on our freedoms and then try and terrorize our citizens.
The threats are real, and has affirmed my support for our mission in Afghanistan. Canadians from all walks of life should also be on-side.
As for Kyoto, and SSM - especially the latter, these may end up being serious thorns. I was hoping the Tories (as a Tory Supporter) would drop the debate, as the majority of Canadians have moved on. While I don't believe that they are in anyway controlled by the religious groups - there is clearly a strong influence - especially from the elected members in rural Alberta and the praries.
Regardless, their views on Kyoto (while very pragmatic) and SSM (not pragmatic) are not supported in urban Canada - where they will need to make inroads if they expect to come close to a majority - or even hold on to a minority.
mbjc88
5 years ago
I wonder what Canada will do when Iran attacks Israel with nukes?
The song they sing is Death to Israel, Death to America, Death to the West (hey! that is us!)
We will take over the world and they will submit to us. That is their chant.
They don't believe it is pretend. Why should we?
nightbloom
5 years ago
I was actually just chatting with Colin Campbell in Ottawa a couple weeks ago. Did you know he studied for the priesthood at a Roman Catholic seminary? He's still one of the sharpest public policy minds in the country.
The question is not whether Harper goes to Church. What is this - a witch hunt? The man possesses a secular mentality. His attendance at church is no more incriminating than Paul Martin's Mass attendance, or Irwin Cotler's presence in the Synagogue.
The insinuation made in this article is incorrect and misleading, and supports not rational or academic argument...it is, therefore, propagandistic.
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom
your words:
That's what I was responding to.
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
Your post is the perfect example of why people are fed up with the arrogance of the Liberal party and why it needs a very deep cleansing.
G West
5 years ago
sez Capitalism/maybelle.
Those are fighting words, dude. Don't call me a Liberal, eh!
hannibal
5 years ago
Hey,Capitalism.
You don't find the timing of these raids a tad suspicious ?
Public support for Harpo's excellent Afghani adventure is at its lowest point .
The fact that the pigs provided the amonium nitrate to these guys doesn't set off any bells? The fact that the piggies conversed with these guys in chatrooms telling them God only knows what ?
Sheesh! you redefine the word gullibility .
Can't wait until they are acquittd and the truth comes out that this was a pig set-up from the word go .
realist2
5 years ago
We have terroist attacks being planed and executed here because we are following the Americans down the corporate greed route. The entire terrorist movement can be reduced to understanding that instead of the old golden rule standard of "treat others as you would have them treat you", the new golden rule is "He who has the gold makes the rules". America is attacked because they impose their corporate greed around the world be it in Iraq or Iran. We as Canadians have joined this bandwagon by helping the Americans interfere in the problems of other countries and now we too are a target of those who have been forced to comply with the American Corporate greed. We reap what we sow and now we will get Harpo screaming the same propaganda spewed by Bush when he was given the gift of the world trade center bombings. When Bush was told of the 9/11 attacks while he read school stories to children, do you think he was thinking about the lives lost or how quickly he could get to Dick Cheney (too cerebrial for his little mind to process)to be told how he could best prosper by the misfortune of others. We are a victim of the same kind of lame leadership. Then again we did elect him in the face of no viable Liberal leader so ultimately we are responsible.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, whatever Colin. Truth hurts,hunh ?
nightbloom
5 years ago
Gwest - It all revolves on how we employ the term "evangelical". This article clearly draws a connection between Harper's creed and American style born-again fundamentalism. Do you really see that in Harper? I can't, no matter how hard I squint. And I certainly don't remember him being part of the "born again" set back in his Reform days...perhaps something's changed in the interim that I'm not aware of. In a world where carpenters get resurrected anything's possible I suppose...
I'm just very skeptical of liberal-Left attempts to categorize him with the term "evangelical", given the connotation which this article gives to the term. I'm flashing back to Warren Kinsella's nasty and mean-spirited (though somewhat warranted) hatchet-job on Stockwell Day. Realistically, I can only see Harper indulging in that sort of religious exercise for political reasons (i.e. constituency building)...Which makes him no different from most other politicians of various creeds.
I simply don't see Harper as cut from the same clothe as post-alcohol, post-cocaine, born-again George Bush. Harper is something different entirely. We're getting a little too strained in our attempts to draw parallels between our homegrown conservatives and the Great Satan south of the border.
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom
You write:
And I say yes. I don't have the time to post the evidence - but it is out there. He's kept it pretty buttoned up since the penultimate election to 2006 because it got him into some real trouble then.
Remember the little story about the couple walking by a drunk who is sharing the gutter with a pig. One says to the other,'You can tell someone who boozes by the company that he chooses.'
And the pig got up and slowly walked away.
Harper has never walked away, in my opinion, from his fundamentalist roots in the reform/alliance party and if we elect him to a majority there will be a great many people who will regret it for a very long time in my view.
You are right about one thing. Harper is far smarter than George Bush and the ruling cabal around him has far less influence over his actions and plans.
gkam
5 years ago
We will take over the world and they will submit to us. That is their chant.
Sounds like mbjc88 should go kill for peace in Iraq. What validity should be given to war-lovers preaching from home, safe from the destruction and misery they champion?
But the real problem here is religion; the base of most conflict.
freebear
5 years ago
Are all the Posters here card carrying politicos?
Perhaps leave aside politics and just ask whether the current government, or minority coalition, is working for the common good of Canada!
What are the Visions, or Vision, of Canada?
More of the same?
Funny how persons speaking about climate change are considered alarmist, and delusional, but those parroting George Bush and the "War on Terrorism" are prudent and far sighted!
Canada, regardless who is government, should reassess its foreign policy (right now it seems to be made up on the go) and be sure that the policy does not increase the possibility of home made terrorists.
Alos funny how the alleged terrorists want to harm Canadians, yet are also happy to live in a 'western' democratic country!
Capitalism
5 years ago
Hannibal:
I certainly hope not. Even most of Harper's critics will agree that his is a man of superior ethics and principal. He may be a bit of a control freak, but he has yet to lie and has built his party on such principles.
I think this is a bit of a conspiracy theory on you're part. We live in a sick world if the Government and CSIS are colluding and conspiring to de-fraud the electorate for votes.
While the timing may be good for Harper, let's try and remove the politics from this. We have problems within our border, and now have proof. They say there are over 50 terrorist cells operating within Canada.
These people believe that they are in a religious war, and have proven they are capable of attacking us. We are not immune.
I have said before that this current war is a war against the Western world and western culture. These people could care less about Bush's foreign policy. They were bombing embassy's before and after. They attacked America before Bush had got back from Vacation. It is our liberal culture that they hate - Pamela Anderson, Britney Spears and pop-culture.
hannibal
5 years ago
It has yet to be proven whether these guys were actually terrorists or not .
Frankly I think they are the creation of CSIS and the RCMP .
To do their political masters will .
There is ,very,little support for the Afghan adventure.
This is Harpo's lame attempt to prop up the flagging support here at home and get a pat on the back from his idiot cousin the shrub .
hannibal
5 years ago
"I will never appoint someone who is unelected to the senate"
Stephen Harper
Sure seems like a lie to me buddy .
Capitalism
5 years ago
Realist2:
You don't get it - these people believe they are in the middle of a religious war. They are terrified of the influence of the western world on their fundamental, extremist views.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Hannibal -
I suggest that you have a drink of water and let that bong smoke clear from you're brain. What you are suggesting is a paramount conspiracy. Give me a break. Think about the degree of collusion, the number of players necessary, etc.
As far as the example you cite - I agree with you on that point. He tried to explain it away as needing urban representation, which he did. Although, there was a hole that needed to be filled, and no formal election system in place.
Still, we have far bigger concerns at hand.
hannibal
5 years ago
Hey,dude I love bong smoke .
Yea, well I never said it was a clever conspiracy.
How do you explain the fact that some of these kids aren't even from Muslim countries but the Caribbean ? The old gangs and violence group. Or that two of the accused were locked up in Kinsgston Pen ?
The idiot can try and explain all he wants-he lied.Period.End of story.
Tried the same shit with the Emerson fiasco .
Nope he's just another philthy politician who uses the truth as sparingly as possible .
Can't wait to see how he reins in the Yankee press who are all over him for harboring terrorists in Canada .
Now that's phuquing hilarious .
john l
5 years ago
So...
CSIS and the RCMP enticed the lads into buying 3 tons of ammonium nitrate? Either the so-called "terrorists" are the dullest morons on the planet or the cops are about the finest marketers in Canada! Either way it might be a great idea to wait until we have some actual details before hopping on our usual bandwagons, kids
realist2
5 years ago
I couldn't be happier that Capitalism does not agree with me. This assure me that I am on the right track. Thanks for the vote of confidence bro!
Capitalism
5 years ago
hannibal and other commies:
i find it unbelievable that you guys refuse to open you're eyes and agree that there is a problem with terrorists.
you may not want to deal with it, and you may blame it on our own country - i find it said that you hate our values so much.
this is an attack on the western world.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Harper seems to be having success restraining extremists in conservative ranks. I suspect his approach to the anti-abortion lobby on the Right is very similar to Leftist approaches to social anarchists: take their money and shut them up. Pure politics. For example, aside from the very recent, extraordinary usefulness of the "gay marriage" issue for the liberal-Left (in our case, the Liberals, NDP & Bloc), that has certainly been the approach of those parties to urban gay communities for the past 10 years or so. Grab the cash and run with it. Don't look back. If they scream, muzzle them.
I think Stephen Harper has been underestimated. I don't think there's anything remotely sentimental or religious in his approach to public policy. On this latter point, it's always possible that I'm wrong, and that I am simply being mislead by my own desire to see a moderate middle ground open up where Left and Right can have reasonable exchanges and compromises (ref. my remarks on previous threads about the significance of political figures like John McCain and Hillary Clinton). I don't think I'm wrong, however.
As for the arrests in Toronto...let's see how the charges roll out. This had better not be another embarassment. One thing's for sure: "traditional" Canadian multiculturalism as we've known it during the Liberal Trudeau-to-Chretien era is a failure. The Liberal-funded patronage apparatii that have grown up around the client constituencies of the "multiculturalism industry" don't know what to make of it, never saw it coming, and have been totally impotent in their responses (or in most cases its lack of response).
It is good to see moderate Muslims speaking out to condemn violence (finally). I hope their voices are amplified. As for those screaming discrimination, they can stuff it. Christians are still murdered from Turkey to Saudi Arabia, and I don't hear them say peep. Religious minorities in the West have it pretty good, from Warsaw to Vancouver. It was a hard-bought lesson, but we learned it pretty good.
IAMC
5 years ago
I know that the investigation into these terrorists started out under the Liberal Govt. of the day ( like our troop deployment to Afghanistan ) So because Harper is taking heat for Afghanistan, he should enjoy the credit for these arrests. That's only logical, isn't it?
If the Conservatives had 42 % popular support a few weeks ago, I predict 45% when the next national poll comes out. And their lead in Ontario to increase significantly.
This should really piss some. I'm in heaven.
This Stephen Harper is some shrewd politician, who should be around as PM for years.
Steve P
5 years ago
If this is true, why has Sweden arrested suspected terrorists organizing on their soil? I do not believe Sweden has expeditionary forces in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Hating American greed is one thing, but let's not hop into bed with Islamo-fascists because we don't like Mr. Bush.
Jack's
5 years ago
Same old arguments - same old answers.
At the time, Harper was all for backing Bush in Iraq when Bush wanted backing to attack - because there would be, and were, economic consequencies to Canada for not going along. In fact, a lot of Canadians thought Chretien screwed up on that decision. Bush, Harper and the rest of us found out that Saddam was right. The war would start after the battle was won.
Iran? Same thing but it doesn't appear to be quite ready for a military conflict.....yet. Harper got a lot of flak from the Canadian public for extending our tour in Afghanistan - which has the potential of being a far worse on-going conflict than Iraq.
I don't think Bush and Harper are ready to go along with a war with Iran. Europe will negotiate us out of that one. Iran will listen to Europe, especially Russia.
verso
5 years ago
IMAC, since you love your polls, I thought I'd direct you to this one:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01062006/2/national-new-poll-leaves-tories-suggests-support-majority-soft.html
This was conducted after the poll you are refering to....
Jack's
5 years ago
IAMC
That's what was said about Mulroney - who did wonderful things for our country - NOT!
hannibal
5 years ago
The Clueless ******* speaks from his ass again.
Moron read the phuquing polls .
Only 1 in 3 Canadians want the goof to have a majority .
Your dreamin' about Ontario .
Harpers life span can be measured in months not years.
Get a grip you idiot .
hannibal
5 years ago
Here 'ya go Clueless.
The survey of more than 1,000 Canadians put support for Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives at 38 per cent nationally.
The Liberals trailed at 29 per cent, the NDP polled 21 per cent and the Bloc Quebecois was at eight per cent.
The survey, taken May 25-28, is considered accurate to within plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
Asked what outcome they would like to see in the next federal election, 43 per cent responded they want a Conservative victory. But only 30 per cent said they would like to see a Tory majority.
Alberta was the only province where more than half the respondents wanted a majority Conservative win, while Atlantic Canada, British Columbia and Ontario were noticeably cool to the idea, at 25 per cent or less.
Harpo is done like dinner.
These polls in no way refelct anything in the real world.
lynn
5 years ago
That's misleading... I've heard moderate Muslims condemn violence often...the problem is the voice of extremists is assumed to be the voice of all. Anyway, it's not like Christians, moderate or otherwise, are speaking out very loudly in condemnation of the violence being perpetrated on Iraq or elsewhere in the world. The Christian churches and their leaders, for the most part, play it diplomatically safe...a largely ineffectual and cowardly stance.
Paul in East Van
5 years ago
I agreee with Michael Byers that Global Warming and support for a U.S.-brand social conservative/corporate empire are major issues for Canadians (and everyone else in the world, too). And because Harper fails miserably in tackling these issues with any kind of vision (other than a dystopian one), and because the Liberals are even contemplating making Michael Ignatieff leader (he who supports the continued attack on Iraq AND the torture of prisoners), there is only one federal party leader left to vote for, and that's Jack Layton. The man is clearly lightyears ahead, both in terms of intelligence and vision, on both the Global Warming issue and how the Canadian military should be used in war-torn areas (i.e., primarily as peace-keepers). I believe that in the next election, the vast majority of Canadians will not back Harper's positions on Global Warming (i.e., that it is not a big problem) and on the war on Afghanistan. I don't see Ignatieff as helping us get out of this mess either.
hannibal
5 years ago
Agreed ,Ignatieff hoisted himself on his own petard by nominally supporting Harpo in his great Afghan adventure .
Remember though that smilin' Jack is the whole reason Canada got saddled with the moron Harpo by voting to bring down the Liberals .
So,no Layton doesn't get my ducat either .
Thing I'll vote for Gilles Duceppe .
gkam
5 years ago
Someone please tell the repeat offender that the possessive of you is your not you're which means "you are".
BC Dude
5 years ago
I personally believe that the whole Ontario terrorest thing is a huge Harpo plan that will be found as just that to put fear into the Canadian people just like Bushs scare tactics.
The biggest thing we have to watch out for is Corporate terrorizim Killercoke.com
Harper reminds me of the cartoon of to dogs "Spike and Mike" a lil chiouwa & a bulldog, guess who harper is?
spelling
BC Dude
5 years ago
hey gkam this ain't no english couerse we all get tghe pic even if its spilled write., lol
john l
5 years ago
No doubt the whole conspiracy thing is based on all the evidence the anti-Harper folks have had access to, unlike everyone else in society.
How quickly the lunatic fringe shows on the scene.
murdock
5 years ago
freebear posted:
This is the quintessential question of our time.
What is the 'common good' of Canada?
I suspect that there are more than 30 million different answers and not more than 30% are even somewhat similar.
RickW
5 years ago
No sweat! We can't send troops to Darfur (ain't enough). So what about I-ran......?
RickW
5 years ago
Murdock:
How about nothing so mundane as getting a good night's sleep without the use of meds.........?
murdock
5 years ago
nightbloom wrote:
exactly, and very well put.
the 'machinery' built-up to deal with these elements has rusted solid and now cannot react in any coherent way, since this problem is beyond their pollyanna comprehension.
I would go one step further in saying that many of the latest appointments, by Cretien, to these multiculturalism posts, within governance, are actually making the situation worse by what little actions they do take.
Maritimer
5 years ago
Can an eastener get a word in edgewise or is this just a Western Club?
(I see gkam has been reading Eats, Shoots & Leaves)
With regard to Harper, I understand that reporters in Ottawa have taken to calling him Shrub (as in little bush). That says a lot!
We keep hearing how intelligent he is, but I think he is behaving like a spoiled child, at least with regard to the media.
john l
5 years ago
Never a good sign when organizations claiming to be serving their constituents rely almost entirely on government handouts to remain in operation. I'm reminded of how quickly NOW dried up and blew away when their government handouts disappeared. Pretty hard to see how an organization with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of "members" needs a handout. Ditto for the various government funded "multicultural" organizations.
john l
5 years ago
I'm sure the Ottawa media still have a real bitter on. After years of telling each other what major players they are and having politicians fall all over themselves sucking up it must be hard. Given all the media outlets available nowadays I don't know that they matter much anymore.
murdock
5 years ago
amen hannibal, amen.
now all that is needed are BQ candidates in all ridings, with the dissolution of the silly state called 'the canada' as their agenda.
murdock
5 years ago
RickW responded:
pardon?
I do not understand the oblique reference, but then this is part of the 30 million different answers I was talking about.
Maritimer
5 years ago
I agree with Paul in East Van that it is time to support Jack Layton and the NDP. After all, the NDP has been responsible for getting Canadians the things we value most, such as universal health care, et., etc. I only wish jack Layton would concentrate more on going after Harper instead of just trying to steal votes from the Liberals.
RickW
5 years ago
Murdock:
It is generally recognised that Canadians do not get a good nights' rest -- we are sleep deprived and it makes us cranky. Nothing would add to the "common good" so much as getting a sound sleep. Then perhaps we would think much more clearly when we (for instance)vote for who we vote for (among a nearly limitless array of other things).
RickW
5 years ago
Maritimer:
Yes, Canadians are "socialist" at heart. We just can't bring ourselves to admit it..............
realist2
5 years ago
Jack Layton has been the only federal politician who has addressed the need to return to taxing corporations. that bit of honesty and understanding of the situation gets my vote. It is time for a real change and the Liberals have screwed themselves out of trust and Shrub is just another misguided neocon. P.S. Hi there out east, it is sometimes difficult to break into the regular contributors here so I'll say hi especially to someone who shows that there are a great number of Canadians across the country who understand the realities of neocon crap!
murdock
5 years ago
Maritimer postulated:
The general behaviour may be like unto a small child, but the actions are very media savvy and this is where some of the backlash from that media is coming from.
1st Harper is presenting a limited list of those whom he will answer questions. Harper has been fair and spread the questions all over the press, including many new to the Ottawa Press gallery, and is very careful to completely answer the questions given. He has not gotten into media scrums after question period and appears to have been successful in convincing ministers to avoid the scrums also. This has limited sound bites (bad and good) and cut off the Ottawa Press Gallery crew from their normal source of materials.
2nd The PMO has become 'cold' to the endless media requests that were bread and butter to the Ottawa Press Gallery during the latter part of the Cretien and Martin admins. I think this is really where the rubber meets the road with the press gallery difficulty with the current arrangements as, without the easy material to write with, these press men are having to actually search for stories.
3rd The fear given by the press gallery is that once Harper has gotten his way with the lists of reporters that get to ask questions, then once someone writes something really scathing based on the Q&A, then those reporters - or their publications - may be 'blacklisted' and not get the access.
I say that the entire actions have both good and bad consequences for the PMO. By restricting the easy stories to the ones that 'they', the PM and his PMO, want they {PMO) get to have those stories reported on the 6 O'clock news. Good for them, not so good for really informing the public, but then MSM is less interested in that and more interested in selling another widget.
By restricting the reporters or media outlets that get access and any blacklisting (or threat thereof) will drive the reporters to do what they should have been doing anyway...actually going out and digging out the story - truth will win the day - problem with real muckraking is that it takes time, effort, skill and money.
At the end of the day the Press Gallery reporters are more likely to get told by their editors to quit whining and get on with penning reports. The sad part is, given human nature, these reporters are more likely to start looking for the nastiest of stories about anything to do with the government. This will make the Conformers argument that the 'liberal' media is against them appear more plausible - pushing them apart even further.
My only hope is that this division of media from those whom they report on comes out to let us - the wider public whom looks to MSM to 'inform' us - become better and more accurately informed about the real goings on in Ottawa.
murdock
5 years ago
Maritimer,
Welcome to the Tyee!
murdock
5 years ago
Maritimer wrote:
???
Not a smart choice.
First, as a party, the NDP - nationally - cannot shed the deep union roots and puppet strings to the CLC that runs it.
Second, as a party, the NDP is notionally not any different, on social policy issues, from the BQ - since social issues are what the NDP gets any traction on in the rest of the country this makes them impotent in Quebec, since there are an awful lot of MP seats in Quebec (25% guaranteed!) this makes the chance of NDP governance very slim - since they would have to take a majority of other seats in the rest of the country.
Third, Ontario is less likely to support an NDP federal government, given the Bob Rae experiment. Probably whay Harper really wants to see Rae become the next Liberal leader.
Finnaly, for my own observations, it is not likely that a social conscience party (the way the NDP sells itself - at least around here in federal elections) can become a true governing party until it starts to act more like one.
G West
5 years ago
murdock
You've become the official welcomer now?
G West
5 years ago
sez capitalism/maybelle - examples please.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Lynn, are you serious? Where do you think the core opposition to the war both in the U.S. and internationally is to be found? It's not in the youth movements or in clusters of militant Left ideologues (although those elements are certainly active, though not very effectively) - it's in the traditional mainline congregations. What world leader spoke out more forcefully against the U.S. war in Iraq than any other on the global stage? Hint: he wore a white dress to work.
Here's another example - virtually all her columns are anti-war, when she's not travelling the country giving anti-war talks. If this Benedictine nun gets any more uppity she's liable to get sent to Guantanamo: http://nationalcatholicreporter.org/fwis/
It should also be noted that when it comes to re-settling Muslim refugees here in Canada, Christian charities have done more than all three levels of government combined in terms of donating the necessities of life and household, and providing other services during the transition and resettlement. That's the real story, though it will never get coverage.
DPL
5 years ago
I guess I'm showing my age but here goes. Dief screwed up big time by cutting the Arrow program,( espensive but way ahead of anything the US of A had for a lot of years later) then signed on to a missle that needed an atomic war head( Bomark)so it sort of just looked showy. Joe came along and had a crew that couldn't count, tried to ram legislation with a minority.His gas icrease scared everyone so he got bounced.
Lying Brian ran a masssive majority down, after singing along with Ronny Reagan and signing us into Free Trade and the GST, when he jumped ship Kim Campbell ended up with two seats. Every once in awhile the folks get tired of the Liberals and in comes a new conservative to change a lot of things. Harper has already screwed up the softwood lumber deal and is leaning us south again.should wwe expex him and Bush to start singing as Brain was so fond of doing with Ronny. Shouldn't take long till he gets dumped. Tonight I hear we are buying a few C17s to haul our very limited numbers of service people around. Man those aircraft are expensive. What ever happend to the Rhino party when we need them?
Tom Lal
5 years ago
If indeed a terrorist threat exists in Canada I would indeed hope that we are prepared and ready to defend our country. And considering the degree of cozy relations with Bush now that Harpo is our Prime Minster we may indeed now be on the radar more than we have been in the past. However, I can recall the RCMP wrong doings of the 1970's and based on that and now coupled with laws that allow them and CSIS unfettered powers to track, investigate and jail people with no recourse it is not impossible that some memebers of the elite sections of both agencies may indeed create situations that allow them to yell Fire and support unchecked attempts to raise concerns amongst the public. In the 1970's the RCMP attempted to whip up public fears of the so Called FLQ threat to Quebec and Canada as a whole. During the McDonald commision enquiries it was revealed that our boys in red tunics bombed a barn, issued fake communiques in the name of the FLQ and even attempted to form an alliance with the Black Panthers in the US to scare Canadians into believing an armed insurrection was in the wings. Jean Marchand former memeber of the three wise men Marchand Peltier and Trudeau apeared on the Jack Webster show here in Vancouver and alleged that The second largest political party in Montreal was a front for the FLQ. Later of course it came out this was a cheap ploy to save Mayor Jean Drapeaus butt and secure a re- election of thier old friend. The war measures act was inacted and the rest is history. Our current anit terrorist laws in many ways go far beyond the war measures act of days gone by. In 1970 when Trudeau was asked how far he would go in taking away civil rights of Canadians he said "Just watch me" Harpo on the other hand wont talk to the media and in the best case scenario he might simply say.. NO comment
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom
Even though some fundamentalist Christian groups are doing much better re aid to Africa and there are some vocal Catholic noises urging America to get out of Iraq of late it doesn't negate the damage that outfits like Focus on the Family and other groups who do support the Bush White House and the war are doing. Not to mention the group of ‘characters’ who came out of the woodwork today to cheer the President’s new commitment to a marriage amendment to the constitution.
I think Lynn’s point is still valid, on balance.
rotlin
5 years ago
I read somewhere that religiousity is an issue for approx 60% of Americans but only for 30% of Canadians.
The American evangelicals are starting to jump the shark. Pat Robertson claims to have leg-pressed 2000 pounds at age 73 giving credit to his "age-defying" shakes:
http://www.cbn.com/communitypublic/shake.aspx
You know you are in questionable reality land as an evangelical when FOX news debunks you:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197219,00.html
murdock
5 years ago
G West,
better than the back-handed one I got from you.
murdock
5 years ago
nightbloom, correctly pointed out the 'ordinary' folks doing things for those seeking refuge and then:
Of course not, because feel-good does not sell newsprint.
murdock
5 years ago
DPL asks:
Why do we need the Rhino's any more? When we have the likes of Smilin' Jack and Mr Dithers?
Working Man
5 years ago
As usual, I welcome Grumpy's insight. Herr Harper indeed a one termer and let is not forget we actually have Millionaire Jack to thank for his government. I had a good talk with Hedy Fry's senior secretary last week on a different issue and the general consensus of the Liberal party is to let Herr Harper self destruct. All goverments have a free ride for a few months.
What the Liberals are slavering over is the prospect of Herr Harper trying to use Alberta money to bribe his erstwhile separtist buddies. I wonder what Ezra Levant and his right wing wacks at the Western Standard would think of that? They are the people who bankrolled Herr Harper's campaign and have openly associated with the lovely likes of Doug Christie, Ernst Zundel and Jim Keegstra.
The Afghanistan "vote" charade showed Herr Harper and the Alberta Bible Bashers cannot look forward to much of an alliance with the block. Herr Harper will next try to do a Mulroney and spend his way to happiness in Quebec, thus ensuring defecits, which is poltical suicide.
"Constitutional" issues are poitical death. Glad that Herr Harper does not realise that.
lynn
5 years ago
Yup, largely diplomatic/safe sermons on the part of the leaders of the church. Did they lead mass protests over Abu Ghraib, over Guantanomo Bay, over Haditha? Over the thousands upon thousands of deaths in Iraq? Not much risky behavior on the part of the leaders of the church anymore.
I'll take my religion in the form of Stephen Colbert, anyday.
Helen Thomas, May 4, 2006:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0504
The brain
5 years ago
After reading the posts by most of you, I've come to the conclusion as to why the Cons are in power... most of you don't have a clue as to how dangerous Stephen Harper really is.
Anyone who believes that Canada was a terrorist haven or country on the top ten list of terrorists to attack before 911, are entirely clueless.
Anyone who believes that Canada's involvement and highly unusually close ties with the Bush administration doesn't put this country on the top ten list of countries to terrorize by Muslem terrorists, are also clueless and likely very slow in the head.
Anyone who believes that Harper's kiss ass approach to U.S. foriegn policy isn't putting Canadians in harms way at home and abroad, is the same thing. Clueless... and perhaps borderline retarded.
Anyone who thinks Canada's role in Afganistan is peacekeeping instead of strategically manouvering forces towards an Iranian border besides Iraq so that the war can be fought on two fronts, and thinks that this war has nothing to do with money, namely oil, has totally missed it.
Anyone who thinks that today's politicians won't be remembered as warmongers for money in the generations to come, can think again because thats exactly how they will be remembered.
My advice to you all is to read the story one more time. The one writer who makes sense beyond you all, is Micheal Byers.
Need I list the reasons why? Try Harpers 5 year presidential affiliation with the National Citizens coalition (heavily backed by U.S. corps) for starters. The FACT that this organization's wishlist is to privatize ALL ESSENTIAL SERVICES should tell you something. The reality that the majority of Harpers election money is coming from U.S. corporations should spell it crystal clear.
And Colin:
Once again, you continue to disappoint me. This country was once within the top ten peace keeping nations in the world in terms of sending peacekeepers and money. We are now 50th. Your version of peace is "be peaceful or else". Our previous role in keeping the peace was so much more effective and why? Because mere presence, even if it is an unarmed presence, is shameful to any nation that violates human rights even to the most serious degree's, especially when it was Canadians watching. Peace keepers don't need to be armed to the hilt and triggerhappy like yourself to be effective. They simply need to be present, with a reputation that we once had for being neutral.
And as for those of you who believe 17 individuals are all guilty of treason and terrorism... whatever happened to presuming innocence until being proven guilty? In a climate of programmed fear given off by the Bush administration like it was candy, should we not be a teensy wheensy bit leary of being suckered by our latest U.S. integrating puppet plant? C'mon. Surely most of you cannot be this slow to catch on.
lynn
5 years ago
sorry, the above link doesn't seem to work.
To read Helen Thomas's article of May 4, 2006, just google:
"Where Are All the Leaders Of Faith?"
The brain
5 years ago
Nice to hear from you again, Lynn. Deeply disappointed with the comments on this thread. I honestly thought people were smarter than this. I hope its not a consensus cause if it is, it simply shows that we have neither the morality, or the genetic potential to begin to see reality for what it is.
Supporting Herr Harper is like supporting the making of wine in lead cauldrons to "sweeten" the taste. Just like the great sheep of the fallen empire of Rome, these fools can't or won't see it coming either. Will these dummies be bragging up the Cons with the eggs in the face about to come? Nope. They'll buy new computers and change their names. Its the Con way.
Take a good long look at the picture at the top of the article, dummies. Within 3 months, there'll be more to come. But then, it won't be any of you, right?
greengreen
5 years ago
How silly to suggest that "multiculturism has failed" because of the recent events in Toronto. To jump to such a quick, unwarranted conclusion leads me to believe that you would be happy if this were the case. Kind of like eagerly waiting for something to happen so you could discredit our attempts to be a successful multicultural country. I doubt if perfection is possible in such a noble goal, but, damn, we've done a pretty good job, a model for the world. Perhaps you see multiculturalism as a leftist ideal and just can't live with it.
I was so impressed with David Miller, the Mayor of Toronto when his first comments were that we must ask "why?'...why would young people brought up in Canada get sucked into such a plan? Pursuing this will lead to understanding and hopefully help us deal with issues in our multicultural society. (if only the U.S. would have taken this approach after 9/11...)
rob
5 years ago
Hannibal and other may have the right take on the RCMP and CSIS ' terror' suspects.Tom has reminded us of some sobering history regarding the RCMP. The so called ring leader of this terrorist cell was spouting off so obviously that his local MP complained to the mosque. Does that sound like a professional terrorist cell? Did the guys that flew the planes into the world trade centre stand at the mosque and tell everyone what they were going to do?
Do not forget it was the RCMP and CSIS that gave Mehar Arar to the Syrians to be tortured. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives reported that when the Liberals tried to find out who in the RCMP had given the Americans his name they were told it is none of their business. That same report noted that our officials had far less information then the Americans had about what the RCMP had done.
Who does the RCMP report to -Ottawa or Washington?
Now we find out that the police may have helped provide the ammonium nitrate and how convenient this whole affair is. Days of coverage with all the security experts saying we have to stop using underground parking and things are different now etc. etc. Just when the Conservativew were squirming over their ill planned mission in Afghanistan. ( Yes the Liberals got us in there but Harper has extended the mission ).
Perhaps it is just my dislike of how close our army and intelligence services are getting to the USA that causes me to see such disturbing signs of collusion. Maybe it is the way we are failing to focus on the really important issues like the fact we may have to fight against the USA in order to preserve the Arctic bioregion...
America is not our best friend, not critical to our future survival, a terrible trading partner and a hostile nation when it comes to our claims in the Arctic. It is still very possible that BUSH Harper could get elected again and create the same kind of havoc that Gordon Campbell has in BC. They need our oil and natural gas and lumber and our support for their illegal schemes. Harper and Campbell and Harris have given up our birthright for a mess of pottage. We need trading partners and northern allies that are not bankrupt!!
Canadians should consider the Green party policies as an antidote to the main parties worn out ideas. Is it better to have the Bloc in the Federal parliament or some Green Party members? We are for the economy , for workers and their families and communities and for the environment. Trashing Kyoto because it may hurt the economy is suicidal. Kelowna has a booming housing market but water that is so terrible there are constant boil water advisories and the hallways of the emergency ward are used to treat patients. Traffic is a nightmare and the crime rate is one of the highest in the country.
Is that progress? A Harper majority would be like handing the keys of your house to home invaders to look after.
Sorry for the rambling post but these TYEE articles are always so interesting and the discussions so informative that I got caught up in the action.
The brain
5 years ago
rob:
Got to admit, I'm with Hannibal on this one as well as yourself, rob.
U.S. foreign policy hasn't changed since it began ownership of other nations resources. If a country, doesn't matter what government, monarchy, dictatorship, communist, democracy, you name it, has a resource the U.S. wants and is unwilling to open its markets to the world so the U.S. can buy it out as it has done with most of Canada, that country will either run the risk of war, or a political coup.
With Canada, the U.S. major shareholders of its corporations wants our remaining markets. Healthcare, insurance, banks, and systems be they penal, police, judicial, political, the wheatboard, media, you name it. And its a little late to play catchup when the U.S. has put a political leader into the PMO and that PM has a majority.
And its not just Harper we should be worried about. Its anyone else that follows with his agenda! Do we really think that this country can even survive a Harper majority? A third of us might be that slow, but the rest of us aren't. And if we had the facts and knew what was truly at stake, I seriously doubt that he would get as much support as Mulroney did on his way out (14%, if anyone remembers).
G West
5 years ago
Aw, c'mon murdock, you'd been blowing smoke on this website for months before I ever posted a word and you know it.
G West
5 years ago
Working Man
If getting rid of Stephen Harper is left to Hedy Fry's brain trust I'm afraid we're in for a long dark age.
G West
5 years ago
In fact as rob, says:
It is now apparent that this was a sting from the beginning and, the supposed terrorists were actually given a harmless substance rather than the 34-0-0 fertilizer they thought they were getting.
So much for the imminent threat to bomb anything; if the stuff they were seizing was ersatz fertilizer, who were all those heavily armed folks supposed to impress?
Not the alleged terrorists who were sitting around on sacks of crap that wouldn’t blow up in a stiff wind; that little dumb show was meant to frighten and impress the Canadian public. Judging by the response on this thread, it has certainly worked with the gullible.
I can’t believe anyone accepts this story at face value.
lynn
5 years ago
Well said..I am so tired of sleep-walking sheep mindlessly tripping along as this country veers closer and closer to the abyss. Like both you and G West, I am surprised at the level of unquestioning gullibility.
I agree, Canada will not survive a Harper majority...at least the same Canada we know and love.... in reading about the Calgary School, you just cannot but come to any other conclusion.
You know, I saw a very interesting interview with Adrienne Arsenault the other day. She used to report for the CBC from Jerusalem and Gaza...now she reports from London, I think.
She was saying that what many Canadians don't get but a lot of foreign journalists come to quickly understand, is that the rest of the world is very cognizant of the stand Canada takes on issues...we are watched.... far more than we think.
She said the Palestinians always used to say to her as long as she could remember "Americans, bad"..."Canadians, good". After Harper, his position on Hamas...they would say "Americans, bad"...Canadians, bad."
The words are simple but revealing.
I agree with hannibal as well that the timing of this so-called terrorist plot was well, very convenient...and did you hear "Doris" say over and over again that the biggest threat of all was the internet? hmmmmmmm
lynn
5 years ago
should read.."at least not the same Canada we know and love"
inkioko
5 years ago
Yeah, the pigs would NEVER set anyone up... give me a break...the state is just up to it's usual machinations... nothing new, just more extreme.
harper needs his very own Czolgosz...
fukk amerikkka we really dont have any need for them... close the border... yeah yeah im leftie ranting again... sorry
hannibal
5 years ago
Anyone who believes that we have home grown terrorists that were not wholly created by CSIS and the RCMP is simply delusional .
Their whole program is so transparant it is childish in the extreme .
"Hey,we'll create the monster and then slay it.
That'll prove to our Yankee allies that we take the whole terrorism thing seriously"
These goofs are past masters at creating straw men to slay .
The real damning evidence is that the so-called terrorists couldn't even find a supply of ammonium nitrate to build their bombs with .
That would be job number one .
Since the days of the Baader Meinhoff and Red Brigades almost all terrorists cells have numbered no more than 3, members .
Think of 9-11 .
All the terrorists had only limited knowledge of their targets until the actual day .
Most were unaware of their fellow terrorists and most met for the first time upon getting on the planes .
Now for the targets:The peace tower in Ottawa is not a good target as access is extremely limited and the bomb would have to be planted some 2,blocks away limiting its effectiveness .
CSIS as a target is a telling clue as well .
Why,given the success in London and Madrid they were not targeting trains is beyond comprehension .
These would almost certainly be targets as the success is almost guaranteed .
It will be,very, interesting to see how much CSIS and the RCMP acted as aent provocateurs in this silly excersise .
No,I believe strongly that they whole apparatus will be exposed as a cop set-up from the word go .
That these individuals were taught and coached by members of CSIS and the RCMP is almost a certainty .
nightbloom
5 years ago
Helen Thomas is making a good point, but I differ from her view in that I would extend her point to all sectors of civil society. The anti-war sentiment today is much, much more ambiguous and circumspect than it was in the Vietnam era.
The ambivalence is reflected in all aspects of the current anti-war movement, not just in the clergy. The clergy, like other professional associations in civil society (some of whom are vocal; many of whom are not) are simply reflecting the nature and temper of the society they represent. However, nothwithstanding Helen Thomas' points, there is currently a lot of anti-war activity on the Catholic Left. There's a long tradition there of bucking patriotic jingoism and opposing foreign policy adventures. Part of that come from their own collective memory of being an ostracized "un-american" minority in Puritan Protestant America.
Let's face it, the anti-war movement has not gained tangible momentum, even though there's a lot of quiet unmobilized agreement with its arguments. I'm at a loss to explain why this is. There's just a lot of quiet anger out there, but also a lot of distrust and paranoia. The sentiment is not nearly as cut-&-dry as it eventually became in the Vietnam era. The potential is there, but it hasn't crystallized.
RickW
5 years ago
DPL:
Whatever happened to AVRO when we could use some home-grown industry? That was another conservative REALLY BIG SCREW UP...........
Working Man
5 years ago
Brain,
I agree with you completely on how dangerous Herr Harper is. I am 100% familiar with is NCS past, as well as his close ties with racist groups such as APEC and the WCC.
That said, it was Millionaire Jack's decision to bring the last government down in order to win a few more seats. True, the Liberals were no saints but they were a lot better than the American Lap Dogs we have running the country now.
Supporters of Millionaire Jack on this site should think long and hard about what they did. Millionaire Jack is never going to form a government, nor does he hold the balance of power. He has given that to a party whose stated (if not real) intentention is breaking up the country.
Thanks Jack but was it really worth 10 seats?
hannibal
5 years ago
With respect Nightbloom the anti-war sector is much more ambiguous because the actions are much more ambiguous .
In the Viet Nam era it was cut and dried,black and white .
We were there to counter the spread of communism and perpetrate a genocide on poor blacks and hispanics by using them as cannon fodder .
Now what is the program ?
Are we there to stop the spread of Islam or terrorism ?
Are we there to protect our corporate interests ?
Are we there to spread the word of Christianity ?
Nope. We are there to spread democracy whether they want it or not .
http://www.iwtnews.com/node/2879
Interesting reading about Afghanistan and how the whole effort has failed .
Now we won't be even able to act as'Peace Keepers' as we have sold our sould for thirty pieces of silver to Amerika .
The brain
5 years ago
Lynn, hannibal, G, rob and a sprinkling of others, I'm glad to see people with common sense actually posting for a change.
Everything Harper has done to date reveals what kind of man he truly is. Appointing unelected chronies into cabinet, appointing David Emerson, a man with a shitload privatization directorships into the minister of trade...
And speaking of Emerson's directorship with Teresen, the man behind the sale of BC gas to Teresen for shares, (and in case the dummies out there need to be told what it is, its called a bribe) Teresen has been since bought out by Morgan & Kindle, and Morgan and Kindle has since been bought out by Goldman Sachs and Carlyle. Remember Carlyle group? The same Bush family and Saudi owned group thats into building U.S. war equipment for our "friends" down south? Next time you pay your gas bill, you can thank guys like Emerson for putting your cheque's into the hands of warmongers instead of your own pockets. Anyways...
Its not just the targeted bribery on his budget and his axing of the Kelowna first nations agreement, or his complete lack of interest in the environment, (and Rona Ambrose... this is another Harper puppet to watch. She says Canadians personal heating and transportation emmissions are higher than Kyoto's targets alone. Who is the big polluter in this country? BUSINESS, particularly OIL! And who lion share backed Harper in the last election? You know, there happens to be something worse than a lie cause you can see lies coming. Try half truths. Its a shame we have her as a minister and UN environmental prez. She should step down.)
And its not his war mongering ways of ramming through Afganistans war after a half a days debate. And it isn't O'Connors lie of telling Canadians he needs 8 billion dollars for military war machines for what he calls Canada's role in Afganistan... peacekeeping. His words? "Its not a war!" As Lynn was saying, the rest of the world isn't that stupid. But it sure looks like Canadians are. Look for this former defence lobbiest to be handed directorships, including Harper, when its all over.
And Harper's latest two faced move (besides claiming to be an open, transparent government, thats a laugh) is telling Canadians that he'll stay out of provincial politics when asked what he thought of Preston Mannings possibilities as premier of Alta. A month later, he's in Ontario calling their Con wannabe premier hopeful "the next nation builder." If you can't add two plus two, then you'd have to be on glue to know that he wasn't speaking of Canada.
Lynn, G West, rob, hannibal, Coyote, check out the commentaries on the Tyee's piece on PCB's. Later...
G West
5 years ago
The Brain
Seems to me I heard there was talk recently of taking Kinder Morgan Private, wasn't there? Great oversight we'd have under those circumstances.
The brain
5 years ago
Assbackwards, but otherwise correct. :-)
Your right about Jacks ambitions. He didn't care about the consequences of a Con minority or whats best for Canada. He cared about his party becoming more powerful. Remember Goodale's leak anyone? The one he called a scandal? Nice lie Jack, and there were a host of others. The NDP could federally use a much better leader than the one they've got now. His interview on the CBC with Peter tells all. Just about everything that comes out of Jacks mouth is prethought out and when someone asks him a question that requires him to think quickly, if its not already script, he's found stumbling.
To that end, I'll say that Jack Layton has lately been bringing up issues that need noise. Oil company subsidies with oil at over $70 a barrel? (and U.S. corps at that) And his stance on Darfur and Afganistan... but what would he do if he was in power instead of on the sidelines? And their platform... thats alot of spending. Their economic platform needs more work before they can have a chance of getting elected and to that end, it would need to look more Liberal than they would like to admit.
People can change, but I'm not holding my breath with Jack. Then NDP could do better and they have better, but Jack is likely there for a while yet. The NDP federally wants to be a force in Ontario, (where he lives) explaining why he went after the Libs while completely ignoring the Cons. And, its the reason why he failed to capture more than 29 seats. He left the Cons for the most part, entirely alone and gave them a bye. I wouldn't call that genius and I certainly wouldn't call that good strategy to lure Liberal voters away to the NDP. All he had to do was go after Stephen Harper better than the Libs and watch the Libs fall on their own corruption. It was the best tactic he had, he didn't do it, and for that, I pretty much know that we can have a better leader in the NDP than the one we've got now.
If the libs were smart, they'd bump up their leadership convention to Oct. "in a bid to stop the Cons from ruining this country." Unfortunately, they just aren't that smart.
My greatest fear is that Harper doesn't need one tri-city riding in this country to win. He simply needs Alta, the majority of BC, about 35 seats in Ontario, and the majority of Quebec to win a majority. Would Quebecers elect a Con majority to get their own sovereign nation and risk, highly risk balkanizing the rest of Canada in the process? Its my greatest fear and while I shouldn't speak it, its better now than on the eve of an election to contemplate. One thing is for sure. Gille Duceppes days are becoming numbered with his support of Harpers budget. And, while Gille is committing political suicide, and the 24 hour a day soap entitled "Mongomery" has left the Lib feds in ruins in Quebec, where does the electorate go?
In a province full of scandal since the conception of politics, a province ridden with debt from corrupt and inept governments, Quebec is not the most schooled when it comes to chosing and electing candidates to run in any form of government. For as much as I love my friends out east, its just the way it is.
And the media? Our Israeli owned Can west media that owns the Suns and Globes and Heralds and Citizens that will do anything to see the U.S. integration of Canada for their own loot and revenge? Making more wine in lead cauldrons.
At this point, I see all four parties as rudderless in this country. Even the Greens with Jim Harris, a man I like, a man that put the Greens on the map, need another leader, a fresh face. His Con past is too much for some to swallow. And do they have a future? Most everyone in the country thought the Cons were done... the greens definitely have a future, especially in this kind of climate and would do the best, I think, in terms of gains, in a snap election.
The brain
5 years ago
G West:
Correct, you are. Kinder Morgan, Morgan & Kinder, are being bought out by their founders, mainly Goldman Sachs and Carlyle. What was once BC gas a few short years ago, is now owned by a brokerage firm and a defence firm of which the Bush family as well as the Saudi's own a major chunk. Both firms, in fact, are a who's who of who's pulling the strings in the worlds economy, including WAR. All you British Columbians can cozy up to that one when you pay your gas bills this winter knowing your putting more slop into the troughs of pigs instead of your own pockets.
For shame, Emerson and Campbell... for shame. What took decades to build was sold by theives in the night. BC rail, BC ferries being next, why, they were auctioning off BC ferries without so much as one public word on the issue. And do Harper and Campbell supporters really need to be told like it is? I can serve it to you hot, or serve it to you cold. This time, you're lucky.
Name one universal crown corp essential service that was sold off where the provision of services didn't go down and the cost to the consumer didn't go up. Name me just one!
murdock
5 years ago
so, the brain, after holding forth here a couple of times saying how foolish and brain dead or deluded we all are ... you can only point to the Green party as a solution?
rather limited in the range of options I should think.
murdock
5 years ago
The Conservative Party brainstrust KNOW:
The Liberals cannot 'get their house in order' within the next 4-8 months, so any election call within the next 12 months will mean that the Liberals are not likely to be as fierce a contender as they have been in the past. This comment is in regards to the front line workers, the phone line boiler rooms, the door knockers etc. An energetic leader with a solid set of financial backers could change this, but that is a rather large task.
The Bloc is continuing to work only in Quebec, making the task of beating them in a federal context easier. The next Provincial election in Quebec may be more important for the BQ survival anyway.
The NDP still cannot get the sort of traction that the Alliance was finding it hard to get in Ontario, without some sort of majority in Ontario no party can have national government aspirations.
The Greens are still a total unknown, only hitting single percentage points in polling nationwide. No more of a blip than the Reform Party was at the start, but hardly likely to form government, again especially since vote rich Ontario and Quebec still do not know whom they are.
With this knowledge, coupled with a steady flow of contributions from industrial canada, Harper is in the drivers' seat. Handed the keys by Mr Dithers actions in his minority and having the door opened by the valet Smilin' Jack.
Not ever in the canada's past has it ever pinned much on external affairs. So long as Harper and Co. do not bungle internal issues the external actions will not carry much weight with this electorate.
hannibal
5 years ago
Murdock you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
Harpo's incessant suck holing to Quebec will be his downfall.Guaranteed .
Harpo needs Charest to form the next Liberl Government in Quebec which is never, ever gonna happen .
A defining issue for Quebec isAfghanistan.
They care deeply about our involvement in Harpo's excellent Afghaini adventure.Don't kid yourself .
Harpo has provided enough negatives to ensure his defeat in the next election .
Individually they may not amount to much but put into the context of an election Harpo is a dead man walking .
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01062006...ority-soft.html
In case you missed this .
Nationally,as of,yesterday the neo's were at 38% in the polls .
Now remeber the Liberal's are in disarray(?)leaderless and still smarting from adscam .
If,as you claim, Harpo walks on water then his poll numbers should be closer to 60% .
The brain
5 years ago
Murdock:
The Greens are currently at 11% in polls now, but with overall votes dropping to 4 - 6% like last time as the reality check of who has or shares power takes precidence over national percentages. I don't expect the Greens to be the best bet, here for the next decade? But then again, a lot of things can change given enough time especially in rudderless times. Do you need me to spell out the obvious? We need better leaders than what we have today in all parties.
Speaking of which, when was the last time you saw a pic like the one up top over the last 50 years? Things can and do change Murdock, including my own perception of yourself and just cause you said something like I said something, doesn't necessarily make it so. Its a two way street, don't ya know. In the end, spin falls short of substance and in case you and your vanity hasn't noticed, I'm not making anything up.
As for Canadians voting on international issues, if you think that Canadians are blind to U.S. integration and PM U.S. ass kissing, you're somewhat slow yourself, especially when it comes to war and Canadian lives. We have, not since Mulroney, and not since WWII before that, been unanimously opposed to war, and had parties that reflected it. The last time we had a war monger in office, he got the exit with 14% of the national vote and thats not spin, son. Thats fact.
Yammer
5 years ago
"Herr Harper"...
"Amerika"...
(sigh)
Bobb999
5 years ago
The most revolting quotes from Harper in response to the recent home grown terrorist arrests had him regurgitating old Bush propaganda used since the very beginning of the US "war on terror".
Harper had the gaul to repeat the canards about terrorists "hating us for our freedoms" and for "how we live".Bush successfully used such propaganda to divert attention from US foreign policy as being a primary provocation to the Islamists. Bin Laden was quite clear,pre-911, that his beefs with the US had to do with US military presence in the holy land of Saudi Arabia, and US support of Israeli occupation of Palestine.So far the reports that have surfaced as to the motives of the accused appear to mostly have to do with western foreign policy. The mentor to the group, the forty-something leader, was reportedly particularly upset with Canada's presence in Afghanistan. Some in the group apparently had dreams of kidnapping and beheading Stephen Harper, and presumably making a "trophy" video of it to circulate on the net!
Harper, taking a cue from Bush, hopes he can divert Canadians' attention from our troops' ill-conceived presence in the quagmire which the anti-Taliban war in Afghanistan has become. Unfortunately, our military presence there in a combative , not a peacekeeping role, may be serving to inflame terrorism here and abroad rather than to diminish it. A similar inflammatory situation looms if we support a US attack on Iran. Harper does not want such trains of thought to occur to voters, as he may receive their wrath next election, especially if the Liberals choose an anti-war
leader to oppose him, which I hope they do.
If Bush's very low popularity among both Americans and Canadians continues, as it likely will, it may be a major a liability to our Prime Minister (and the rest of us) to hitch Canada's wagon to the back of a doomed Bush/GOP wagon train.
BC Dude
5 years ago
Rick W
About The Avero Arrow
http://www.avroarrow.org/index1.htm
http://www3.sympatico.ca/mkostiuk/arrow.html
I believe that the Rats in BC & Ottawa houses of parlement will get the guts to put these dogs down before they've sold us down South
I still say that July 1st is CANADA DAY we should be organizing huge peaceful protests to save our Great Country from Gordo and Harpo's give away of our Publicly owned Utilities and going into a USA war and where is this 20billion dollars comming from?
But the Feds & Province don't seem to have funds for Health Care, Schools, child care etc.
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
Don’t mean to rub salt into the wound but your predication was incorrect
The decision by an eight-man, four-woman bilingual jury of the Quebec Superior Court came after seven days of deliberations.
Mr. Guité was detained immediately after the judge revoked his bail. Pre-sentencing arguments will take place Friday. Mr. Guite said he would appeal the verdict.
DPL
I hear the Rhino party is still trying to get driving changed from the right to the left, gradually. Buses and trucks the first year, cars after that….. (yea, I miss them to)
Brain
During those peacekeeping years, the majority of our forces were stationed in Germany to prevent the Soviet Horde from pouring through the Fulda Gap. Even then peacekeeping was a sideline, it just got more press. Go read up on what is required before a peacekeeping mission can work, the key is that both sides are in control of their respective forces and want peace. If those factors are not there, the mission is doomed.
And just how do you know I am “trigger-happy†my trigger control is something I take quite seriously.
G west
Your assessment of the “braintrust†is accurate.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, okay Colin I ain't wounded it's only a scratch .
Just that the jury was out for days and then asked to hear some tapes which the judge refused to do .
I thought they might be dead- locked but I was wrong .
Oh,well another beauracrat heads for the pen .
Don't really care .
hannibal
5 years ago
Now one of the alleged terrorists is accused of wanting to buck Harpo's head off and use it as a bowling ball, for a tape to be distributed on the internet .Too funny.
At least our alleged terrorists have a sense of humour .
hannibal
5 years ago
Um,the Braintrust comments were from Murdock not G.West .
Working Man
5 years ago
Ecellent comments, Brain.
Remember that it was the selfish interest interest of the Comminists and Socialists that let Hitler come to power. Had they worked together, the Nazi party would have never have formed a government.
Intersted parallel with millionaire Jack and the Liberals, eh? Millionaire Jack would rather take seats from the Liberals than keep Lap Dog Harper out of power.
Colin
5 years ago
I suspect that this group arrested is considered AQ’s F troop. They clearly did not bother reading any of Mao’s thoughts on running a revolution, strictly an amateur wannabes. I suspect that AQ provides some information and funding from a distance knowing that sooner or later one of these little groups will succeed at minimal cost to the AQ if they don’t.
nightbloom
5 years ago
I'm still troubled that these kids are Canadian-raised yet still subject to this kind of radical ideology. Something has gone wrong with the current multiculural model. Bromides regarding "racism" from the liberal-Left just don't cut it anymore. We really have to ask ourselves why the current generation of teen and 20-something urban male visible minority is gravitating to radical, violent, ethnocentric, anti-establishment and misogynistic sub-cultures.
The brain
5 years ago
Bobb999:
Your saying it far more nicely than I can at this point (to your credit) and I can't help but to completely agree and also can't help but think hannibal, G West and others are also right in Harper looking for a bunch of loudmouthed middle east scapegoats to drum up support for military spending and the kickbacks to follow.
Hey, maybe that Canadians want! Huge federal deficits, phone taps, pension plans becoming stock portfolio's, huge cuts to social programs, privatization of any and all things that make universal sense et.el. ESSENTIAL government services, you know, smaller government, grieving mothers and fathers of sons and daughters flying overseas and coming back in boxes, permanently stained ability to travel freely abroad or being percecuted for being Canadian because there's no difference between Canadian and U.S. foreign policy anymore, an end to any and all peace keeping roles in the future cause its all about corporate and banking will now, all about the money... I guess thats what we all want according to the Harper lovers on this thread. Cut taxes to the rich, huge increase military spending to protect and further the "interests" of the rich, all cause God and GW Bush and "shrub" said we should. The Cons are off to such a great start of it in a mere 4 months.
Haven't even begun to talk about the environment. Just the other day, 1300 municipalities across Canada were to meet with Rona Ambrose (environmental minister) to discuss global warming. Everyone but Rona showed up. She has since offered no explanations as to why she didn't show, and since the Conservative government is so open and transparent these days, certainly a worthy explanation will follow. If you asked IMAC or Capitalism, they would tell you that it must have been something far more important that came up. A coffee spill on a white suit, that sort of thing.
Working man:
Yah. Smiling Jack. All he had to do was take the comparatively untarnished NDP to counters with the Cons. He left them alone entirely until the last few days of the election. If I was a disgruntled Liberal, would I vote for a leader that almost completely gives the Cons a bye to power? And why the Harper free pass from Layton, if not the lust for power instead of what should be representation democratic representation of the public will? The opportunities for the NDP just don't get much better than that. Boy, did he blow it and let me down. But then, they all did 'cept Jim and its probably in the best interest of the Greens if he moved on as well. Rudderless. Completely rudderless.
hannibal
5 years ago
F-Troop.Too funny .
Nope it's just that the CSIS,RCMP agents in charge of this little charade were having a hard time from LTAO at the gullibility of a bunch of youngsters who would have a hard time organizing a trip to the toilet let alone bombing the Parliament buildings .
This was a cop sting from the word go .
If,as they say, they were getting instructions from the internet they sure didn't follow the advice ,very,closely .
There has to be a financial trail somewhere .
Where is it ?
Oh,right buried in the hard drives of CSIS's and the RCMP's hard drives .
Along with the order for 3,tons of ammonium nitrate .
Apegirl
5 years ago
Nightbloom said:
Really? Under 15 youths, many somewhat recent immigrants, are a "generation"?
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, subjected to the radical ideology by CSIS and RCMP agents .
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
Well the since the setup is similar to the grouped that bombed London, why do you think it can’t be either a homegrown or AQ funded group? I suspect that the bombers in London had more experience to draw upon about keeping under the radar. This group likely gave themselves away a long time ago. (note to wannabe terrorist: don’t babble on the internet) Based on our legal system the cops had to wait till they ordered and took possession of the AN (they used to ship it as non-dangerous cargo on BC Ferries up till the early 90’s)
The “sting†is similar to the setup that the cops used for people (generally jilted lovers) looking to hire contract killers. As long as they didn’t break the rules on how to conduct themselves there is nothing wrong in carrying out the action the way they did.
While I realize the various police forces have played silly buggers in the past, so have the left-wing, but that doesn’t mean I think they are all communist sympathizers plotting the takeover of the world.
Nightbloom
Actually the cultivation of radical non-Arabic Islamic converts is a top priority for groups like AQ. These people can travel and fly without attracting much interest and if they are intelligent enough to stay low key are very valuable. Just consider the Soviet spy system, the ones that did the most damage were the ones nobody suspected. The people AQ wants will be singled out early, cultivated, advised to keep away from mosques, internet and any other indicators that would be used by authorities. They would be funded and used to carry out intelligence gathering, couriering messages and if properly groomed and trained into carrying out bombings or suicide attacks if the leadership feels they can achieve a good return on the loss of such of an investment. The other groups of loud mouths are useful for intimidating local populations of Muslims and promoting the AQ & Whabbi brand of Islam.
IAMC
5 years ago
With the arrest of those scumbags in Toronto, I guess the argument that Canada shouldn't be involved with the war on terror, will be forever shelved.
And to correct some misinformation spread earlier by a liar with a bogus link in his posting, the latest poll puts the Conservatives at 43% and the Lib at 25%. I predict 45% when the next poll comes out.
This same liar claimed that ONLY 1/3 of Canadians wanted the CPC to get a majority government. ONLY 33%, that means that fully 33% support is a given. Add to that those from the other 66% that would vote Conservative, and a majority is certain.
verso
5 years ago
Are you refering to this link?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01062006/2/national-new-poll-leaves-tories-suggests-support-majority-soft.html
What's bogus about it, besides the fact that it's a poll?
The Decima poll clearly says the Cons are at 38%. This poll was realeased after the poll you quoted.
Why call me a liar?
murdock
5 years ago
hannibal:
never did claim Harpo walks on water.
only that in the sea of 1's that he is facing the fact that he is a 1.1 will allow him another victory - even if only another minority, the problem is that the 'other' parties will not have the guts to call him on his minority and crush the CONformers like the bugs that they are.
hannibal
5 years ago
Phuque you can't even read Clueless .
The poll clearly states national support of 43% and that only 1 in 3 Canadians want a Harpo majority .
Learn how to read 'ya phuquing goof !
BC Dude
5 years ago
Terror in Toronto Ontario, USA fear tactics that Harper & Bush have orcastrated, me well the bs in politics now I wouldn't belive anything anymore.
IMCluless did U forget your prozac or is it Ritlin today?
hannibal
5 years ago
Verso,relax man. It is me he is calling the liar .
The phuquing idiot can't even read and if you attack the goofs hero Harpo look out .
The poll is accuarate and the latest in a long line of polls .
If,as they say, Harpo is headed for a majority his numbers she sexceed 54% at this juncture .
After all he saved our lumber industry,reformed the senate, brought in tough new legislation for crime bills.
Is going to reverse the Supreme Court decision on SSM.
Yea, the moron has acoomplished a lot.
murdock
5 years ago
The brain
Since it seems so obvious to you, then you had better spell it out 'pappy'.
A different leader in every party would mean exactly nil to the voters in the 18-40 year olds.
A change in LIEberal leader will mean nothing, without a full convention to examine the party ideology - from the ground up. Like was done in the 60's before Trudeau came to leadership. Now that there is no 'official' leader is the time for such an introspection, now that the Conservatives are less likely to want to call an election (as their coffers are just as depleted as everyone elses'). I think that I might just take a second look at a Liberal party, were it to take such a critical examination of itself and the country that it purports to lead. The LIEberals will not do this, they want another shot at POWER, not really leading, no inspiration, just their place at the pig trough.
The NDP? Smilin' Jack is the latest puppet on a Labor string. Until the NDP dumps its union C&C it cannot form governance, as it would be like telling every federal employee that they better double their union dues if they expect to keep a job.
BQ? Still only in Quebec, their program may actually get more traction in other parts of the country, but then that would be the anti-thesis of their entire "raison d'etre".
Greens? They are getting some positive response from the younger voters, problem is, with many majority rule situations, that the canadian voter is older and because of the baby boom the older voters are the larger group. So the 18-40 year old vote has less weight since there are fewer of them.
There is a general tendency within all democratic nations for older voters to follow more 'conservative' lines (that is with a small 'c') making the Conservative party more of a general choice. Within Canada this may still not make the CONformers the popular choice, but because of the general mess of the other main line parties and the smaller youth voter cohort, they the CONformers are more likely to form government.
If all this is the obvious you are crabbing about 'ole man' then skip the sermon. If it is not then try to explain it from your point of view.
verso
5 years ago
Ah, I see, thanks...
murdock
5 years ago
BC Dude points out:
That's because they are too busy shovelling more and more money and value into such systems, which give little or no return to those whom are paying the way.
hannibal
5 years ago
Colin:
As they say"follow the money" .
These kids didn't ,even,knowhow to order ammonium nitrate in that quantity .
The cops did it for them .
The list of targets is nonsensical in the extreme.
Why,given the success in London and Madrid ,would they not target trains and train stations in Toronto ?
Instead we get a bullshit list with the CSIS building at the top followed by the Peace Tower(Ottawa) and the CN communications tower .
Oh,yea and the CBC who are more than sympathetic to the Arabs and their cause .
Parking a bomb at the Peace tower would be ineffective as you would have to park at least two blocks from the building.Security only allows tourist buses to enter the cordoned off area .
No,Colin these guys for the most part were well educated.One is a computer prorammer who would know all about internet security .
I am sure the RCMP and CSIS have already chosen who they are going to scape goat for this affair .Some low level operatives who they will say went off the reservation without their knowledge .
murdock
5 years ago
hannibal surmises:
Even if they parked a bus full of ammonium nitrate and blew the whole commons off the hill, that would not change much for anyone in the canada, unless they did it at the right time and actually completed a 'gunpowder plot'.
More to the point should be the examination of the 'sinister' nature of the RCMP/CSIS connection that many seem to be drawing.
Were such a thing true, then why does anyone continue supporting them, the RCMP as the 'national' police force?
Were CSIS doing these things then it is high time to eliminate them, but since such a thing cannot easily be done, then perchance the time has come to cut off the support system and have a nice little tax revolt?
I know that the canadian sheeple will not do such a thing, since they all value 'peace, order and good government' (make me want to puke).
hannibal
5 years ago
Murdock my man. It has often been stated that Canada is a nation of policemen whicih I always understood to mean we are a nation of rats incapable of minding our own business .
Wait until the evidence comes out although with all the new laws these lads are charged under their defence could well be compromised .
Disclosure will mean everything at this trial .
I will be interested to read the various emails between the pigs and the accused and what was said in chat rooms .
I can see the crown invoking non-disclosure for security reasons over and over again .
Some time ago in Edmonton they tried a gang trial on-even built a special courtroom-
that collapsed under its own weight .
These new laws will clearly contravene the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I guarantee it .
rjm
5 years ago
how could terrorists ever cut off harpers head when he has it stuck so far up bush's ass?
tks,
rjm
BC Dude
5 years ago
rjm good one lol
hannibal
5 years ago
ROTFLMAO: Too funny rjm .
You'd have to give the shrub an enema first .
Coyote
5 years ago
Now, I don't know what degree of real legitimacy there is behind these charges of "terrorism" against these young men from our Muslim community. And I've been around long enough to to know not to prematurely buy into anything coming out of these Conservative scumbags around Harper, and the quasi-fascist "law and order", "kiss Yankee ass and fight their war on terrorism" environment they are working diligently to create in this country.
For the over-arching reality is, we all know bloody well, even the neoconazis themselves, who we have to thank for this arrival of so-called "terrorism" or "Middle East patriotism" into our midst, depending upon whose point of view you are looking at all this from. It is Harper, and before him the fuking Liberals, who are both so preoccupied with playing a syncophantic role to Bush's Amerikkka, by taking the hit for them in Afghanistan, and our Navy in the Gulf, from the beginning, throughtout this War Against The Arabs currently raging throughout the Middle East, who have brought these enemies of the US Empire into our midst.
And that is making a huge assumption at this point that it is not all a cooked up police state plot by CSIS and the RCMP, in league with the Harper Neoconazis. Which, like I said already, I personally am not yet prepared to do. Not by a long shot.
But even then, making that huge leap of faith as a purely academic exercise, and offering that there MAY be something to all this-, the real enemies of the country who have brought this down upon us are our own, residing in the Parliament and our own US serving ruling class politics. It is they who have brought the enemies of the US Empire here with a possible intent to exact retribution for our co-joined with US Imperialism "State Terror" upon their Middle East lands, as I have already long ago said was the danger that was likely to happen here.
We are in the midst of a causal chain of events here that was set in motion in the final days of WW2, when the decision was made in the capitals of Europe and the then rising US Imperialism, to resolve the postwar "Jewish Problem" of Europe, in the aftermath of the Nazi inspired Holocaust, by giving European Jewry the land of the Palestinians. (When originally, if I recall correctly, the Zionists had indicated they would be content with Argentina-, which itself would have been criminal.) And added to that "original sin" of course, and walking hand in hand with the Zionist State of Israel and the creation of the Palestinian diaspora, has been a complex history of US interference throughout the entire Middle East region, including arms and financial support for despotic regimes to oppress the Arab peoples as part of Amerikkka's theft of their resources, particularly oil.
Which sets the stage for and passes through the Twin Towers on 9/11, the imperialist invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, down to the events of the present.
Given the high level of ignorance amongst the North American masses of course, manifest in such as IAMClueless and pals, there is an attempt to play upon that ignorance and create quite a different causal chain that merely starts with the attacks on the Twin Towers. Even a cursory examination of real history however, not propaganda historical fabrication and parsing designed to secure our support for the imperialist behaviours of especially the US Empire allied with the old British Empire ambition in our time, whose latter's dying embers still glow with desire to at least share in the New US Empire Quest, reveals a much older and more complex history-, and the continuing efforts of the peoples of the Middle East and their warriors, to resecure control over their own lands and lives that goes back even further than this current history event, to so far as the Christian Crusades. (Which is in part why the Arabs so much tend to mix up that history and its images with the war of liberation they are similarly currently caught up in.)
Continued next post...
hannibal
5 years ago
Well the RCMP colluded with the neo-cons to bring down the Government of Paul Martin .
Anyone remember that fat pig Jason Kenney accusing the Liberals Ralph Goodale of complicity in allowing information with regards to trust law being sent to various people ?.
RCMP said they were investigating. BULLSHIT !
They never investigated anything but it ws the final nail in the Liberal's coffin .
Coyote
5 years ago
From previous post...
Like I say, I don't really know what degree of "truth" there is connected to these events around the arrests of these young Middle Eastern men. I do know though that it smells to high heaven, and what it is being played out to secure from us on the part of the State Police and our Puppet State, and the greater whys and wherefores. And it is not what is claimed.
It's time for the resurgence of a mighty and powerful peace movement within this country, as Lynn and others have suggested upstream here, to disengage us from this evil war serving the cause of the US Empire, before many more of us die here or there-, and which can serve as a launching pad for sending us off in a quite different development and goals direction, and away from crossing paths with the enemies of the US Empire, and that is more serving to our own independant national interests.
I think it is time we separated from the United States, and joined in the creation of a new national entity with Quebec and our First Nations.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Apegirl, that's not at all what I said - I said teens & 20-somethings, and I said visible minorities, not immigrants (although some of them would constitute a sub-group of what I was describing).
Now that I'm travelling a bit more, I see it everywhere now in the larger urban centres across the country. And yes, I'd call it a generational thing, because even though I'm only a few years out of my twenties, I see these kids using cultural references (dress, language, behaviour) that is totally outside of my generational experience. They're constantly employing 'code' that I can recognize as such even though I can't decypher it.
The brain
5 years ago
Murdock:
You remind me of Jack Layton. He bashed everyone but Harper too! And this is where you go astray just like all the rest. Harper is dangerous. His background is rich with U.S. oil and puritan church support. He's a western separatist and while you so love to bash anything else that is more functional, you and Jack sing the same old song.
As for leaders of parties not making a difference, its like saying Harper doesn't make a difference but we've already established how little you have to say about the man and how much you have to say about everything else. Its pretty much the same thing as praise, in my view.
And Colin:
Your beloved Conservatives axed the long gun registry to save what they claim to be 10 million a year. All of that hoopla of complaint and smoke coming from guys like yourself to save check it out! 10 million!
And meanwhile, the military looks poised to get 20 billion for what you like to whitewash as "military equipment". That military equipment as you like to call it, gets people killed. That's all its for. So while you pretend not to be a war monger, you support them and that means for those who have common sense, that its pretty much the same thing.
hannibal
5 years ago
Right on ! Brain .
Haven't yet figured Murdock out yet .
Don't quite know what to make of his political posture .
See the Azz hole Harpo is travelling in an armored motorcade now the morons life has been threatened .Idiot!
Guess he feels threatened,hunh ?
I would too if I was as evil as he is .
Can't wait for an election so we can stomp the guts out of this goof .
He will be lucky to get another minority .
More likely scenatio will be an NDP/Liberal coalition .
And meanwhile, the military looks poised to get 20 billion for what you like to whitewash as "military equipment". That military equipment as you like to call it, gets people killed. That's all its for. So while you pretend not to be a war monger, you support them and that means for those who have common sense, that its pretty much the same thing.
Coyote
5 years ago
And killed not even for serving the real national interest of this country, which I could accept and understand-, but that of Amerikkka. And at that, it's a military so enmeshed in the military schemes and self-serving continental and global defence systems of the US Empire, commanded by an officer corps similarly so enmeshed with and beholden to the US controlled command and officer corp training structure, that neither this so-called current "Canadian" military or its officer corp is primarily there to serve our own particular "national interest". It is little more than a "puppet" military system that is but one minor aspect of the US Empire colonial admin and influence control and enforcement arm in this country.
We need, with our military warriors and its officer corp that is capable of seeing through this arrangement, to change this situation with our military arm. We need a military that actually serves this country first and exclusively, as opposed to this current colonial servitude arrangement which castrates its usefulness to us and our own territorial defence needs.
Nonetheless, it is all in the process of coming unglued anyway, along with The Empire itself, and we need to grasp that and act as quickly as possible.
hannibal
5 years ago
Coyote said:
For the over-arching reality is, we all know bloody well, even the neoconazis themselves, who we have to thank for this arrival of so-called "terrorism" or "Middle East patriotism" into our midst, depending upon whose point of view you are looking at all this from. It is Harper, and before him the fuking Liberals, who are both so preoccupied with playing a syncophantic role to Bush's Amerikkka, by taking the hit for them in Afghanistan, and our Navy in the Gulf, from the beginning, throughtout this War Against The Arabs currently raging throughout the Middle East, who have brought these enemies of the US Empire into our midst.
G West
5 years ago
Care must also be taken, not only with respect to these "accused persons" and to the operation which led to their arrests, but also because - and the evidence is already bubbling up through the muck and mud being slung at Canadian Muslims - there are elements in our society who will use this event to attack the real achievements of peaceable multicultural communities in this country. You can find this stuff, not only in the press - check out Christie Blatchford in the Globe, for example - but also on the web.
I was at a convocation ceremony at the University of Victoria today. Seeing the students and families there, coming from backgrounds and countries that span the world, I can only be proud of what we've started to achieve here. In a city like Victoria that was, 30 years ago, as white bread a city as you could ever find, this is a wonderful thing. Ordinary sensible Canadians can't allow themselves to be manipulated by the press and a few hateful individuals; this is a country that has the beginnings of a marvelously inclusive and diverse culture - it must be honoured and protected.
Former BC Boy
5 years ago
Hello Y'all!
I'm glad that several people have pointed out that those charged with the terrorist plot ARE ONLY CHARGED! They have NOT been found guilty or not guilty!
Heck, I'd even say that Lewis "Scooter" Libby (ie:the Valerie Plame Leak Affair in the USA) is still only on trial too so we can only guess at his guilt or innocence.
Presumption of guilt is something the media are so good at!
How often does the media have a big article about someone or something, but when the person/persons are found NOT guilty or there is a mistake the follow-up article is buried!
Trial by media not your peers (or a judge) seems a more apt description of the law in our society!
And before any of our conservative/neocons friends sling more hate at those in Southern Ontario I should remind you that this is not an ideological stance!
Kevan "I'm innocent" Hudson
Suncheon, South Korea
rotlin
5 years ago
Steve P
Agreed. Note the presence of Aly Hindy and Abdullah Khadr at the court house
as interested spectators in the bail hearing for the accused in Toronto:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/National/home
"This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that's all," he scoffed.
Hannibal
Hannibal I guess you'll call me delusional (and other names no doubt) but I don't put much confidence on Aly Hindy's opinion or yours on this
issue. I don't find it hard to "believe Canada has home grown terrorists that
were not wholly created by CSIS and the RCMP".
Former BC Boy
5 years ago
Also, note to G West....
Excellent comments on multiculturalism!
As someone who has many friends married to or living with someone (girlfriend) of a different culture/ethnicity/race/religion I agree wholeheartedly with you!
PS: My girlfriend is from Vietnam.
Kevan Hudson
Suncheon, South Korea
IAMC
5 years ago
My apologies to Verso, who is more on top of the polls than I am.\ I still think that 30% of voters would want a CPC majority govt. is positive. I am sure that some of the remaining 70% would cat a vote for CPC. I think, that a CPC majority is coming.
Our true NORTH strong and free.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, keep spinning Clueless one .
The idiot is all done .
Rotlin: Whatever dude. You'll be proven wrong .
No need to scream my name .
Bold face is considered yelling on the net .
Just so you know .
nightbloom
5 years ago
Gwest - Multiculturalism is an existential reality for Canada, and always was - It's the future of the globe. We were ahead of our time in that respect.
But how we go about managing multiculturalism in a high-tension, competitive, angst-ridden and really quite anti-social urban-based future is open for debate.
I don't see the current model being particularly successful at integrating new Canadians. High Schools are rife with ethically schismatic gang-culture, the college system has been used as an ineffective substitute for proper ESL programming (at the expense of academic standards and the rest of the "naturalized" student body - the universities were powerful enough to draw the line on this trend when it first started in the 1980s & early 90s, but not the colleges, who are under the thumb of policy makers). Minority participation in society outside of the politicized Multi-Culti patronage junket is way down (some Asian minorities being a notable exception to this, from the Boy Scouts & Air Cadets right up to the Canadian Club). Subsidized housing tenements have become self-perpetuating poverty-&-crime ridden urban ghettos.
And the whole flimsy liberal citizenship ethic is so bland that it can never hope to replace homegrown loyalties, resentment & vendettas of the Old Country (whichever country that may be). I mean geez - we've got fourth-generation Greek Canadians who still talk about wanting to kill Turks over Cyprus...Do you really think Arabs, Pakastanis, and Serbs can see anything in our national identity to grasp on to to help transcend all their cultural baggage? I'm continually told over & over again by my latino & francophone friends (usually after a couple drinks) that "Canada has no culture"..."Canadians don't know who they are"...and by Canadians they usually mean whitebread English Canada.
So I think multiculturalism needs to be re-thought, re-conceived, and re-invented for a new globalized context.
nightbloom
5 years ago
...that should have read "ethnically schismatic gang culture..." - not ethically schismatic...
hannibal
5 years ago
Paris France has had ethnic riots(mostly Algerians)for the past several years as has Britain with its multi-cultural diversity .
Nothing needs to be reinvented at all .
Multi-culture mosaics exist all over the planet and young people experience disconnect all over the world .
Successful bi-level integration is a myth of Titanic proportion .
Every city in North America has Chinese and Arabs in their communities .
Toronto has the largest population of Italians outside of Rome.
Did they successfully integrate. Yes.
More Jews live in New York than Israel.Successful integration once again .
It is our very tolerance of others that makes Canada what it is .
Yea, people live in ghettos the world over it is not the fault of the host country .
America is more of a melting pot than a rue multi-cultural society and they are much less tolerant of their immigrants .Xenophobia.
Life long hatreds exist everywhere even amongst Arabs.Sunnis and Shiites the Wahabbi etc .
No nothing needs to be reinvented or stage mangaged . All that needs to happen is to allow the various races to integrate openly and accept one anothers differences .
Serbs despise Croats an ancient hatred and yet they live sisde by side in many communities throughiut the world .
Your view is too simplistic as there are thousands of reasons that problems exist and there in no one answer.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Hannibal - I find your view excessively simplistic. We've entered a new age. Populations are no longer stationary, no longer contained by community frameworks in localized rural or suburban settings. The digitized information flow around the globe is unlike anything that has ever emerged before. And we're in the anxious uneasy stages of an uncompleted cultural synthesis that was preempted around the same time your namesake was crossing the Alps. None of us can accurately predict what will emerge from the long-frustrated encounter of East of West.
Government policy can longer longer afford to passively react to developments. Planning is needed to adapt our structures to the new pressures. To glibly say that tensions have always existed as we see them today is nonsense. The Polish and Hungarian immigrants of our parents' day didn't deliberately and knowingly become members of inter-continental terror-cells who plotted to behead the Prime Minister, so let's get real here (dunno why I can't type that with a straight face - it's just so absurd).
The differences between the Italian, German, Polish, and even Japanese arrivals in Canada two generations ago pale in comparison to the differences that are evident today. This requires more diligent planning, adapting & improving everything from government service delivery, public education, universities and career training, employment/workforce integration, and the accomodation of diversity while still upholding a tenable social cohesion.
And somehow out of this must emerge a common unifying ethos that everyone (or at least a representative critical mass) can live with.
Jack's
5 years ago
Paul in East Van...
Way off on your opinion of Layton as having much on the ball - in my opinion. Gawd, he was pathetic in the national debate. All he could spit out was the official party line - over and over and over.
Libs? - Canadians aren't ready for them again - yet. Maybe in about 5 years or so.
Hate to say it, but if Harper were given a chance today, he probably could pull in a majority - in Ontario particularly. Like I say, I would dread the moment.
Jack's
5 years ago
Hey - nice prediction Jack's! Anybody read the news lately?
Jack's
5 years ago
Now if Hedy Fry were to head up a government don't you all think that would attract votes?
To the opposition....
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom writes:
Which I'll take as general agreement with my observations above about the importance of multiculturalism and my concern about the kinds of things that are being said in official and quasi-official circles about its future in this country. Not to mention how thoroughly it is currently being demonized in the irresponsible press coverage and the even more irresponsible opinion writing – to which I have also referred.
As to the value of the kind of "planning" which will serve to ameliorate the difficulties of integration - I'm not so sure I agree with you there. In addition, I'm not so certain I agree with your thoughts about us having entered a so-called 'new age'. I think that delineating the bounds of historically significant eras is a fraught exercise at the best of times and almost impossible from the present perspective.
I suspect the successful integration of diversity into Canadian culture and social fabric is more a function of economics and well-funded schools staffed with excellent and committed teachers who are valued and respected for the importance of the role they play in society than anything else. I think the unifying ethos, under such circumstances, will emerge on its own. If we continue to measure success in this culture only in terms of dollars and cents then we are going to be in for a very bad time – and not just in respect of immigrants and successful integration.
Very brief, I know, but all I have time for at the moment. Real life beckons.
hannibal
5 years ago
As societies mature they need less and less structure .
Human nature allows for self structuring .
A married person is much less likely to step outside the law of the land. And one with children even less so .
I find your entire concept to be Orwellian in the extreme .More Structure from 'Big Brother' is not was is needed .
So what communications move with lightening speed in this day and age how is that indicative of the disconnect problem ?
Yea, information can be freely accessed, again so what ?
Most of these kids were happily Canadian living the typical Canadian life. Soccer,chess clubs, enrolement in the military taking pride in their schools and attaining good grades .
You are the one who is simplistic in the extreme if you think you can regiment human beings.
Face facts there is no one answer . More information is available on a daily basis.
What do you want to do shut down the internet ?
Arabs are reacting to their enviornment the one that has been totally phuqued over by AMerica Inc.
Iraq will never, ever be stable unless you kill half of the population of the country .
Same as Afghanistan .
It is their people that are being killed and they react with anger when they see troops killing them .
This never happened to the Poles etc. with the exception of WW 11 .That was a Nazi problem .
Who knows if this kid ever said he'd like to buck Harper's head off . Haven't seen the proof yet and as they are to be tried wunder the new draconian anti-terrorist legislation we are unlikely to as the governement can claim national security issues .
Nope.The model we have works just fine .
hannibal
5 years ago
Based on what ?
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
Since when does well-educated means intelligent? Running a terrorist cell and blowing up things takes a different skill and mind set than what is taught in Canadian schools.
You are correct that an uncontained explosion would be ineffective against the tower and these guys were not professional, but even a dumb amateur can sometimes succeed, which is why the AQ will release some funding for these operations, it also exposes government intelligence gather capabilities for them to analysis.
So all police are “pigs†not exactly a flattering remark of many of the hard working people I see everyday risking themselves for our behalf. One of them I know was a Rescue Tech with the Forces before become a cop and had his hands burned pulling a kid out a wrecked car or what about the ones that bike for cancer, take time to canoe the coast to build up connections with native kids. Do you call all blacks “ni**ers, and Chinese “Ch**ks also? The way you refer to the police is no different than racism and sexism that you claim to hate. Interesting that you hate the very organization whose top leadership was politicized and “groomed†by the party you hold dear.
Since you predicted that Guite would get off, you will forgive me if I don’t bank on your latest prediction.
You want to take part Parliament “once and for all†Does that mean that you are advocating a dictatorship for Canada, sure sounds like it, doesn’t sound very inclusive to me.
Brain
It’s a billion in direct cost that the AG could actually find! The money does not include indirect costs, nor could the Liberals keep the costs under control. Remember when they promised it would only cost 2 million a year to run?
The kicker of course is that it does not work, I can think of 5 police officers killed where the registry would have indicated that their were no guns on the property. The AG ripped them a new one in regards to the inaccuracies within the system making the data worthless. Hell they couldn’t even update my mailing address.
So you are complaining about our government finally replacing equipment that is often older than the people operating it? Our you saying that we should not equip our people with the best equipment that we can afford? The people in our armed forces are our sons, daughters, fathers and mothers. I have no problem with spending money to make sure they have the tools to keep them safe as possible.
Not to mention that the purchase of the aircraft is spread over 20 years and since the current fleet of Canadian aircraft is falling apart and the heavy lifters that we rent from Ukraine and Russia are also nearing the end of their life it makes sense to invest in the aircraft.
Coyote
Although I disagree with you, at least I can see the rationale on your position on defence.
Jack's
5 years ago
Hannibal...
Based on nobody else to vote for...
Coyote
5 years ago
Amen, brother.
Though there is still here, amongst that previously all powerful Anglo (white bread) majority, which includes even we Scottish-Canadians :-), and if there truly is a serious desire to integrate the new global immigration streams from Asia and the Middle East, a failure to understand and draw proper behavioural conclusions around the deep and negative experiences of these peoples with firstly historical European imperialism, and more recently in the post WW2, the US Empire. There is a deep rooted and lingering resentment and lingering hostility around this history on the part of many of these peoples and towards this treatment history of their original homelands at the hands of the "Western" imperialist. And because they have had to up to now, to get by the Keepers of The Gate, it is often carefully concealed and not immediately obvious, if ever actually spoken of.
But if we want to avoid "triggering" it, and launching such reactions as we "MAY" be observing here around these so-called "terrorism" arrests, our State and we long time citizens will need to first be mindful of this history and its deep rooted trauma effects upon these new immigrants. Whatever scars may be carried outside, many more are often hidden snf out of view inside. But then finally, in actual deeds and not just words, we need to avoid allowing Canada itself to be drawn into this "imperialist historical experience" as suffered by these new citizens original homelands, and draw it back where it is, as quickly as we can. For fail we, and do we come to in fact be seen as part of "that imperialist problem", we are likely to get, at best, a conflicted response in our efforts to secure their loyalties to this country, and secondly we MAY get much worse, by way of behaviours towards ourselves, and the causes to which they lend themselves or are drawn.
It is a complex history and national population development period we are going through in Canada and elsewhere. It mirrors the world and historical experience we are living through. And it is being made infinitely more complex however, by the "Conservative/Neoconazi" choices our government is presently making, by choosing to join the "Empire Quest" of rampaging US imperialism in the "original home regions" of many of our new immigrants.
This role of our State and country needs to be quickly changed in our own people's interests and those of the country, theirs (our new immigrant diaspora), and that of the entire people still trying to live and prosper in the oppressed and warred upon worlds of Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Otherwise, more such arrests and events as are already raising their heads, PERHAPS, around this current one in the media will be inevitable-, and the further undermining of even our limited and fragile democracy such as it currently exists.
There is fascism on the move everywhere, no doubt. Though here I would much more worry about our own homegrown "Conservative" ruling class variety, aided by fundamentalist Christianity very often, and aided and abetted by liberals and Liberals, and other timid and transparently frightened political elements within Parliament and elsewhere. It is this rising fascist tide that is infinitely more dangerous and better armed and equipped in this country, to say nothing of more deeply rooted.
Jack's
5 years ago
Just a comment that doesn't concern the subject of this post...
Why does Hedy Fry remind me so much of New York politician Al Sharpton?
hannibal
5 years ago
Coyote I agree with your assess ment of the police I should have clarified my position to ones that stoop to entrapment to make a case .
I agree the cops are mostly fine people .
I should not have written that .
I don't give a rats azz what happened to that crook Guite.He got what he deserved.
It looked like a hung jury after 6,days of deliberations and the judge refused to clarify the closing arguments .
And yea, I for the most part do despise para-military organizations as they have a tendency to abuse power .
Don't care whether you agree with me or not man .
hannibal
5 years ago
Sorry Coyote the above was in response to Colin not your post .
Coyote
5 years ago
LOL. Well, as a long time observer of history, and of no small issue a married man :-), I find myself agreeing with this quote from yourself, as a general statement. I certainly think you are more correct than nightbloom's excessively rationalized and convoluted "Catholic" thinking on the subject of social institutions and structure. Indeed, outside of his sexual predilection, I find his views to be so anally straight and "conventional", as to maybe suggest he needs a "mother's little helper" pill to loosen him up a tad. That or somebody needs to wash the starch out of his shorts. :-)
I suspect that I will actually find myself dwelling on this thought of yours for the rest of the day. Thanks for it. :-) It has far reaching implications. 8-D
We are not actually so far from agreement then Colin, on this very limited subject. 8-D We should treasure the moment. 8-D LOL
hannibal
5 years ago
Educated idiots abound in our society .
Terrorism like anything requires a certain skill set that these young guys did not posess .
Emulating someone without knowing what the reality is ,is terribly dangerous .
Mark my words Colin .
The prosecution will invoke the secrecy act(part of the draconinan anti-terrorism law) dozens of times during this trial to limit the defense's ability to properly defend these children .
For phuque sake half a dozen of them are under the age of 18 .
They did not grow up on the Gaza strip .
They have yet to develop a core personality which makes them easy to lead as they do not think rationally .
No. I can see them being led down the garden path very easily .
IAMC
5 years ago
My question is, was this terror cell the tip of the iceberg or the entire iceberg ?
It's hard to imagine that our fine intelligence forces found everyone involved in plotting terrorist acts against Canadians.
Did you know that the two main plots were
1. to blow up a major Canadian building, such as Parliament Bldg. or CN Tower.
2. To open fire on a crowd of Canadians, killing as many as possible.
They also threatened to behead Stephen Harper.
I hope their friends on this site rethink their positions.
You might just end up in the line of fire yourself.
hannibal
5 years ago
Coyote ROTFLMAO at your, more than,apt description of Nightbloomers .
Wash the starch out of his shorts. Too funny .
nightbloom
5 years ago
Hannibal - do you have a counter-argument to present, or are you just passing gas, like Coyote...?
nightbloom
5 years ago
Gwest, we seem to be more or less on the same page. But just for the sake of argument...
I'm with you up to a point. Staff the schools, fund the system, and bring back academic rigour based on the core liberal arts & sciences. And above all don't let the union apparatchiks anywhere NEAR the curriculum. You didn't really think you'd sneak that one by me, did you?
That has never, ever been the case. Even when these things seem to spring magically from Zeus' forehead, or emerge mystically from the waves, they're actually carefully balanced constructions developed over time. The problem now is that the pace of change is such that there is no time. The problems are here & now.
I actually haven't heard much criticism of multiculturalism on the scale you're suggesting. I actually think your garden variety Canadian hetero whitie has been behaving himself quite well - very restrained, tolerant, quiet, hat-in-hand. In fact, if he gets any more docile we'll soon find him sitting down to pee, like the Swedes. I hope the Canadian specimen doesn't become quite that domesticated.
Starched underwear indeed!
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Dream On!
These 'fine' intelligence forces are the same folks who destroyed the vital recorded evidence which might have led to a conviction in the Air India case. Not only have you little sense, you have no memory.
I'll wager our fine intelligence forces spend most of their time snooping into what normal patriotic Canadians are doing with their spare time and attempting to convert them into informers and rats. When they aren't playing silly buggers with the CIA and the FBI and enabling those ‘fine fellows’ to ship Canadian citizens off to third country destinations for "interrogation".
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom
I said I was busy. Still, can't let that pass. Do you not read Christie Blatchford? David Frum? Ezra Levant? Have you ever sat for an hour in a coffee shop in Moose Jaw?
I think not.
As to the business about schools and unions: I know far too many professional and extremely dedicated teachers who would like nothing better than to have an opportunity to practice their profession under decent working conditions (which do not obtain in many schools in our cities today) as true partners with administrations and governmental authorities who also cared as deeply about the students and the future.
All this care and feeding which results, one hopes, with a decent end-product society in the end is, in my opinion, much more a consequence of trial and error, failure and correction, than it is the consequence of the kind of central planning you seem to be in favour of. I don't think a single observer of Quebec culture of the period 1930 - 1945 could have predicted the outcomes that would obtain there by as early as the 1960s.
We see through a glass darkly, if at all.
That's it for today.
BC Dude
5 years ago
Iamcluless again you've gotten all your (blowed up) info from the local rags & TV.
The only line of fire is the fear mongers or war mongers involved in this Ontario thing!
Coyote
5 years ago
Okay, so you've made your point. Even these so-called "terrorists" aren't all bad.:-)
Well, not so much their "friend" as one concerned that they should be treated fairly in the justice system, and that whatever the outcome of that, we "street" Canadians should understand the complexity of the forces in play here. And not fall victim to such simplistic and quasi-fascist thinking as you personify on these threads.
And if I do find myself in the line of fire, even by accident, so long as I am able, I'm coming looking for you Neoconazis, who have been the primary cause and effect bringing these enemies of the US Empire down on our heads. Had we kept a proper and prudent distance from this latter's regime here, and its imperialist meddling in the Middle East, to say nothing even of condemning its criminal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, we would not be finding ourselves in this likely increasingly dangerous position.
It is such as you I am keeping my eye on throughout this period. You and your US Empire Loyalist type are the real source of the danger to the country here-, and the entire world.
BC Dude
5 years ago
Coyote I completly agree w/you!
nightbloom
5 years ago
LOL - nope. And I've never found their writing to be very representative of common sentiment, except perhaps in those fleeting moments of public exasperation that attend events like the T.O. arrests. They're talking heads who are placed where they are to sell copy, not influence policy. David Frum is predictable, doctrinaire, tedious and occasionally uncouth. At least Anne Coulter provides her audience with some inadvertent comic relief - Frum doesn't even pay us that courtesy. And I tuned out Ezra Levant long ago, as have most thinking conservatives. Would he really have gone anywhere without the patronage of the Byfields? He did himself in with his fanatical support for Stockwell Day, and his cry-baby tactics when the party asked him to surrender his seat to the new leader when Harper took the helm. There's a way to handle these things gracefully, and he flunked on all counts.
hannibal
5 years ago
Just passin' gas!
hannibal
5 years ago
Suppose your a real Rachel Marsden fan too ,hunh
Nightbloomers .
hannibal
5 years ago
Too right Coyote.Wisdom from the Oracle .
We would not have any problem had we kept our distance from our American cousins .
Now we have been inexorably drawn into the line of fire by Harpo"They hate us for our freedoms"
Now we are left to deal with the aftermath .
Christ I can't wait for there to be an election.
It should take the new governement only a few weeks to straighten out the mess created by the new Nazi party .
Reporter to Harpo:"Do I call you dictator or just dick ? "
hannibal
5 years ago
News from wacko central.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/06/07/coulter-widows.html
lynn
5 years ago
.
Never said better.
I finally realized what that melodramatic speech by Harper reminded me of... regarding the current oh-so-serendipitous find of real, live terrorists amongst us (and that is not to say that they don't exist)... just that this was more of an attempt at a devious high stakes reality show...that immediately came across as amateurish but sensationalist enough apparently for our "inquiring minds" half-dead tabloid media to cover for a change. However, as far as the actual production went, definitely no Oscars here for best director or screenplay. A two thumbs down performance by all involved.
Anyway, speaking of performances, Harper's performance in that Frumish speech of his, reminded me of that recent commercial on "stolen identity" where the big husky football player has the voice of a ballerina...the same deception going on here as well, only this time it takes the form of an actual Canadian prime minister...sounding like the most Republican of Republican southern senators. God bless Canada, indeed...not to mention the Stars and Stripes.
How could some of you guys on this thread ( who seem quite intelligent in other regards ;-) ) forget Harper's dirty little secret rendezvous with the National Citizen's Coalition, (that ultra-right-wing think tank, founded by (dead giveaway) "an insurance salesman") where our present prime minister delightedly ridiculed his own country... and the social values that we have long been known and respected for.
Wake up, this guy is trying to steal our identity as Canadians..he's toxic...and an imposter. By now, his words, not to mention his arrogant actions, should be giving you a serious burning itch, in the worst kind of way, all over your very Canadian skin...in places you've never itched before.
If you don't feel that...if you are not feeling uncomfortable in your own skin as to how this country is changing....if you don't feel the sting of Harper's threat to your own country in the most personal of ways, upon your own tender skin....well, maybe we'll have to bring back the haunting words of T.S. Eliot's "The Hollow Men" just one more time.
Talk about "here we go round the prickly pear".
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
I am glad that you reconsidered your words regarding the Police and posted as such. I have no problem with someone criticizing them for inappropriate actions and calling them to task. As long as they don’t tar and feather the whole for the acts of a minority. I get along with most cops I met, but I do have lots of issues with their leadership, which are mostly political animals anyways. Cheers
hannibal
5 years ago
Kool Colin.
Thanks for that .
hannibal
5 years ago
Lynn.
I just ran out of Goldbond powder too .
Damn an itch I can't scratch until the next election .
murdock
5 years ago
hannibal,
given that the police and state prosecutors do not like the Charter, I suspect that they are looking for a way to do an end run around the Charter, if these new provisions are able to do that - then we all better look out as the powers that be will be looking to use such a lever to 'get their' way more and more.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Nope. I'm not following you at all. I'm not sure what assumptions you've made, but they seem to be inaccurate as far as I'm concerned.
murdock
5 years ago
hannibal,
I say no.
I say that since the re-organization of the RCMP commissioners office in 1973 to become an ADM (assistant deputy minister) in the justice file, this means that the Chief Commissioner (top cop in the RCMP) is now merely another junior minister in the federal government under treasury board. Since then the RCMP has been going down the same defensive road as the military had been since 1968.
The backlash of the 'investigations' came as a result of the Commish being a Cretien appointee. The LIEberal party was in battle with itself. The Commish was simply taking on the battle, for his former master whom was de-throned, in the way that he could. More of this sort of nonsense is likely to continue, watch for the RCMP to have less and less support for the CONformers as their government starts to look like it is tottering towards dissolution.
For now the Commish is silent, since he can be fired by the PMO, once the writ is dropped he has no 'boss' so he can then begin to act freely - something that they, the RCMP, should be free to do already but then the parliament has been busy taking away all sorts of freedoms, we just are not aware of them all...
Colin
5 years ago
Murdock
You are correct that the RCMP headquarters has become a fine tuned political animal, time to bring separation from the government dejour and re-professionalize the higher levels.
hannibal
5 years ago
Murdock: The anti-terror legislation is in clear violation of the Charter as it allows the police to lock people up without producing credible evidence or even charging them.Some have been held in detention centers for 4,years under these draconian measures .
That is what detention certificates are all about
and why the Supreme Court is reviewing them presently .
James Loney a former hostage in Iraq is dead set against them .
In essence if not fact at allows the police to try and convict someone on no evidence at all .
"Oh,he looks like a terrorist to me"
These measures must come with limits .
hannibal
5 years ago
Link to Loney's story.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060607/loney_intvu_060607/20060607?hub=CanadaAM
nightbloom
5 years ago
Speaking of which...
http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebusiness/feeds/ap/2006/06/07/ap2800202.html
Hillary Lashes Out at Ann Coulter:
New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton lashed out at Ann Coulter for a "vicious, mean-spirited attack" on a group of outspoken 9/11 widows, whom the right-wing television pundit described as "self-obsessed" and enjoying their husbands' deaths...
hannibal
5 years ago
This was missing from the Forbes article.
nightbloom
5 years ago
No, she's not disturbed - she knows exactly what she's doing. But yeah, she's gonna get a lot of heat for this - and from her own side no less. She's a liability to her own cause - or perhaps not, since her sales are apparently up - using this kind of ad hominem attack will only galvanize her opponents. Case in point: she's handed Hillary Clinton a platform.
There's a way to criticize "victim culture" without actually re-victimizing the original victims. I think she knows that - she just doesn't care. Perhaps this particular 911 group is getting too blatantly partisan in their public activities (in which case they're fair game), or perhaps they're not.
Coulter had better be careful tho - some nut is going to take a crack at her one of these days. I wouldn't want to see that, but if you piss off enough people...look out.
btw - there's a memorable clip of her getting a verbal slapdown by F. Lee Bailey on CNN a few years back. Men usually aren't very good at that kind of verbal sparring with women in the media (and are usually shredded to ribbons and left to collect their testicles off the studio floor), but he left her drawn, quartered and freeze-dried in the doggie dish before she even knew what happened to her. It was a memorable.
lynn
5 years ago
I have also noticed that every time Harper speaks, I sneeze...he should come with a "hazardous to your health" warning label.
hannibal
5 years ago
Lynn ROFLMAO.A warning label.Too much .
hannibal
5 years ago
Bloom:
There is absolutely no excuse for this type of tabloid trash .
Many of the firefightes and policemens wives were also awarded compensation and yes some were made millionaires .So what ?
I'd like to see her try and trash those people .
A memorable clip with Coulter was her insistance that Canada was involved,with troop deployments,
in Viet Nam .Uh,Ann that never happened .
Yet she insisted she was right making a total fool of herself in two countries .
Her and that azzhole Bill O'Riley sure make a great comic duo.All you can do is laugh at their stupidity .
Dungeness_Crab
5 years ago
hannibal, if you could provide some links for this, I'd be grateful. I've got a Freeper that needs some tough-lovin'
Dungeness_Crab
5 years ago
hannibal, if you could provide some links for this, I'd be grateful. I've got a Freeper that needs some tough-lovin'
G West
5 years ago
For anyone who's not depressed already by the appalling closeness of pee wee to the American project in Iraq, here's the latest figures pointing out just how bad things there are now:
Baghdad's Murder Rate
According to a report from the BBC, violent deaths in Baghdad this year have passed 6,000 through the end of May:
The bodies of 6,000 people, most of whom died violently, have been received by Baghdad's main mortuary so far this year, health ministry figures show.
The number has risen every month, to 1,400 in May. The majority are believed to be victims of sectarian killings.
But observers say the real death toll could be much higher.
A sidebar gives monthly totals:
MORTUARY'S MONTHLY TOLL
* January: 1068
* February: 1110
* March: 1294
* April: 1155
* May: 1398
This makes for a total of 6,025. The numbers are fuzzier than I'd like. The BBC says that "most" of the 6,000 died violently. They don't say what the proportion is. On the other hand, they say "the real death toll could be much higher", and later in the article say, "no-one believes these are the true figures from the violence in and around Baghdad as many bodies are not taken to the morgue, or are never found". So for the purposes of discussion, let's say that 6,025 is the correct number. Over a 12-month period, that would be 14,460 violent deaths (though as noted, the total has risen each month and could well end up much higher).
Baghdad's estimated population as of 2005 is 7,400,000. That makes Baghdad's murder rate 195.41 per 100,000 residents.
The murder rate for the US in 2004 was 5.5 per 100,000 residents. That means you're 35.53 times more likely to be murdered in Baghdad as you are in the US. But perhaps it isn't fair to compare an urban area to an entire nation. Fine. According to this page, the highest murder rate of any US city in 2002 was that of Washington, DC, at 45.8 per 100,000 inhabitants. That means you're 4.27 times more likely to be murdered in Baghdad as you are in the most dangerous city in the US. Here's some more 'good' news:
* You're 8.80 times more likely to murdered in Baghdad as you are in Chicago.
* You're 11.17 times more likely to be murdered in Baghdad as you are in Los Angeles.
* You're 26.77 times more likely to be murdered in Baghdad as you are in New York or San Francisco.
* You're 43.42 times more likely to be murdered in Baghdad as you are in Seattle.
rob
5 years ago
The CBC web site should have references to how the RCMP provided the fertilizer for this alleged plot.
Ever been a juror before? I had this distasteful task on a murder trial. The defense introduced witnesses that the judge proceeded to dismiss. He advised us to disregard their testimony but guess what, the seeds of doubt had already been sown. This had a major impact on our decisions. This terror case seems to be having the same effect. A timely diversion designed to shift media focus and peoples attention.
What were the media talking about before this event? They were discussing the fight between Harper and the press gallery; the restrictions on viewing of our soldiers remains coming home, a a la Bush; the shame of our chairmanship on Climate change talks after abandoning Kyoto and the sell out on softwood lumber. All this was uncomfortable for the Conservatives. Now all the press questions are focused on terror and not the disaster in Afghanistan.
Lynn and Coyote and others are correct, Harper is trying to blend us into this phoney war on terror but Canadians are not as docile as Americans in this regard. We do not have the same kind of religious belief in our government. It will not take.
Multiculturalism is real and is part of our values because it reflects our core principle of tolerance. This does not depend on government financing but is part of our identity, as many discussed so eloquently on previous posts. Will this incident stop this? No, I do not think. As a country, we are only about 18 years old and are just beginning to believe in ourselves. Slowly we are realizing that our big brother to the South may not be as all powerful or as worthy of following as we once thought.
Even Green party members are not opposed to taking action against those who resort to violence to solve problems. We just point out that killing people and spending billions on war machines does not address the root causes of war. Competition for scarce resources like water, is what causes people to fight each other. Green policy is to help people get the resources they need but use the military to help support development and protect them from the militias.
I am a big supporter, in our local Green party, of major expenditure for military equipment because you cannot protect the Arctic bioregion if you do not have ice ready ships to find out what is going on up there and the personnel to back it up ( this also creates alliances and is good for the economy ).
Last Green party point and I will shut up about this ( for now... ). In the 2006 federal election the Green party got 4.5% nationally with the highest percentage of the popular vote in Alberta at around 6% ( Nunavut was 2nd and BC was third ). In Kelowna, which has voted
Conservative for the last 50 years we got 8% ( a 1% increase from the 2004 Federal election ). Provincially, in Kelowna, we got 10% of the popular vote. Our hard core members who vote, contribute money and work on projects range from 90 years old to late 20's, from all income ranges. This is hardly a Green wave but it is also not just a fluke or a flash in the pan. We are a work in progress, like this great nation we are all in the process of creating.
Harper and the Corporate Agenda is so out of touch with Canadian core values that their reign will be tenuous but he is a skilled and ruthless politician and may last longer then most hope.
We may be in for a rough ride so ideas, like everyone is presenting on this web site are important for helping to create our shared vision of this country.
Tolerance is what is lacking in the world and Canada has managed to make this a paart of our life, at the street level.That is worth fighting for, but not in Afghanistan under the command of the gung-ho for killing Americans.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Hannibal - Quite correct. And just to be clear, given the way things sometimes get miscontrued on these threads: I'm no fan.
Yes, I remember that interview (ref. CDNs in Vietnam) and that's not the first time I've observed her getting her facts grievously wrong. She's on t.v. for one reason, and its not on account of her research, journalistic, or scholarly acumen.
The only caveat to Canada's non-participation in Vietnam was that many Canadians did serve in Vietnam, albeit in American uniform. It's not generally discussed, but the Americans were quite active recruiting Canadians, particularly in areas where skills shortages existed (like helicopter pilots). They had a policy of accepting Canadian officers into their ranks as senior NCOs (non-citizens can serve in the military, but not hold commissions).
Coyote
5 years ago
nightbloom,
Going way back upthread, I will grant you one thing about which you are right, in my opinion, nightbloome. We are in a special time in desperate need of hetero-sexual males with concerns for families and the needs of the women they breed and hope to share loving and successful lives with, and the well being of the homeland in which we all reside and which must sustain us all, who have real balls. Not to put too fine a point on it. And there does seem to be a current shortage of them-, not entirely in the way you suggest with your own stronger, if skewered and compromised "feminine side", but nonetheless. More in the sense of "balls" which represent strength, a willingness to take risks and face up to danger, and to wrestle with those who are of real threat to us and our extended selves, our well-being and those of the families we have or hope to have.
Aye, our society is indeed looking for a few good hetero-sexual males, who have not been intimidated by all the efforts of "some" mysandrous women and third sexers, but especially an exploitive society which seeks to emasculate them, because it fears them, and rob them of their masculinity, in its never ending efforts to play sides and aspects of life and sexuality one against the other, including men against women. And vice-versa.
We are in times, no doubt, of desparate need for men who still have their nature given testicles, the original use drives for which they are intended, and the huzpah that legendarily(?) at least goes along with them.
So we are only approximately agreed. :-)
My view.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea,Bloom I know .She is a pretty face with outrageous ideas . No wonder the media love her .
Then there was Bill O'Rileys wholly imagined'Paris Finanicial Review'that does not exist. Using it to quote how Canada would be negatively affected by not signing on to the war in Iraq and the financial fall out we would feel.
Never happened.
Worst O'Riley moment was when he was castigating and physically threatened a young man, whos father, a Port Authority Policman who died in the bombings,because he would not support the adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That made my skin crawl as O'Riley exposed himself as being totalitarian and violent in the extreme .
hannibal
5 years ago
Rob:
Well written and lucid article .
Absolutely once the bell has rung elling jurors to ignore certain testimony only ensures they will remember it with perhaps even more clarity than other testimony .
What I am afraid of is these lads are being charged under the draconian anti-terror legislation that pretty well suspends the accused's charter rights .
We'll see how many times the prosecution invokes the secrecy act . I'm bettung it will be in the dozens.
Forestalling the defense's abilityto launch a credible defence .
The entire fiasco is taken right out of the Republican play book .
When a couple of hundred Marines were blown to smithereens in Lebanon and it was front page news Reagan invavded Granada to change the headline .
Does anyone really believe that tiny Granada posed any threat to their national security at all .
Another big clue is that the NCC(National Citizens Coalotion)has their propaganda machinery working overtime placing billboards all over the place saying "Support our Troops"
with a picture of a yellow ribbon .
Ostensibly)a big lie) they are raising money for the families of soldiers who are killed on Harpo's great Afghani adventure .
They can see his power slipping away and are wprking overtime to ensure they prop the goof up.
Coyote
5 years ago
nightbloom,
As an additional aside, I thought I would pass along my wife's comment to your view of hetero-sexual males.
"He obviously fails to notice that it is still men who run the world. It is in fact still very much, too much a men's world."
Methinks she is on to something. :-)
Coyote
5 years ago
An outstanding piece of writing from the Green Party perspective, Rob. Very interesting and informative. I found it most useful as well as a good read, brother.
With persistence, we will yet pull together a left and broad "progressive" united front reponse to the current Conservative and anti-human ruling class view that too much dominates current social and politcal life in this country. Such persons as yourself coming out of the Green Party milieu will be of assistance to this process and play leading roles, I have no doubt.
Colin
5 years ago
Gwest
I have seen similar figures, but your point? You are comparing Washington DC ( which I agree is one of the more dysfunctional US cities) which however is in a functioning democracy to a city recovering from a dictatorship, war, occupation and a insurgency.
I have seen figures from credible sources that put the added death toll per year of Saddam regime at 100,000. that included murders, disappearances, executions and loss of life due to sanctions. (which Saddam purposely prolonged). No doubt that you will argue that the Coalition is to blame. I will agree that the coalition was ill prepared for the aftermath of the invasion, they needed better plans and the immediate de-bathfication program was a mistake. They also underestimated how dysfunctional the regime really was. Regardless most of the killing is Iraq vs Iraqi with help from Syria & Iran backing their respective sides. It is clear that the same situation would have happened even if Saddam had been overthrown and the a similar level of killings would have taken place, just look at what happened in South Vietnam or a more extreme example would be Cambodia when regime change happened.
The present government of Iraq has been fairly rudderless, hopefully with all positions filled and a major blow to the foreign led portion. We will see more security in Baghdad. And more normalcy.
nightbloom
5 years ago
I wouldn't dare disagree with Mrs. Coyote.
Yes, definitely, it is still a man's world when it comes to balancing out the gender deficit. Women pay the price far too often when men fall short, and are far too often left holding the bag while the menfolk party on.
Of course, there are exceptions that should be acknowledged and integrated into the "gender liberation" thing (e.g. good fathers who lose their children for life when a divorce turns nasty; workaholic men who expire in their forties and fifties working unfulfilling jobs for ungrateful employers that never nourished them)....But no question about it: generally men are rewarded & praised for "being men" while women a penalized & set back for "being women".
My castration analogy on male-female confrontations in the media holds true. I'm not a fan of hers (she's a little over-the-top) but if you've ever watched Nancy Grace's tactics on air you'll see what I mean. There are subtler examples. Men in the media have to be very oblique and aloof if they want to verbally spar with savvy women and be effective, successful, and emerge with their dignity. There's an unwritten rulebook to that kind of thing that men in public life only learn through hard experience, because no one dares articulated anyting that politically incorrect.
hannibal
5 years ago
Let us pray.Amen.
lynn
5 years ago
What were the media talking about before this event? They were discussing the fight between Harper and the press gallery; the restrictions on viewing of our soldiers remains coming home, a a la Bush; the shame of our chairmanship on Climate change talks after abandoning Kyoto and the sell out on softwood lumber. All this was uncomfortable for the Conservatives. Now all the press questions are focused on terror and not the disaster in Afghanistan. rob
A really important point you are making, rob.
This, after all, is really an old advertising/PR concept...the game of distraction...and our sensationalist-based media are always ever so willing to oblige in this oft' played game of deception...and far too many people eat it up like ice cream.. as usual.
You're right, rob, the focus has shifted...away from the uncomfortable, probing questions the Conservatives just didn't want to answer....and back to more conducive subjects like protecting our all-Amerikan border.
It's just a more sophisticated version of the the old "hey... look over there!" as you are about to be robbed of your wallet or... as demonstrated in this more cunning, politically high stakes game... you are robbed of your focus...your attention craftily diverted away from your basic right to know and to question.
hannibal
5 years ago
It's called bait and switch .
nightbloom
5 years ago
Hannibal - I don't think your prayers will be answered during the next election cycle. The Left has been doing an increasingly poor job communicating its ideals in a manner the common electorate can relate with. Okay, so the Left hates Bush. We get it. What else is it saying that really resonates with the public...?
I think if things keep going as they currently are, and if the Left doesn't snap out of it, then we're headed straight for a Harper majority. You're dreaming if you think otherwise.
hannibal
5 years ago
Health care guarantee times is identified as the number one issue facing Canadians and the moron hasn't addressed the issue at all .
49% is huge .
The rest of his program doesn't even have a pulse only 9.5% identified the crime rate as a worthy issuse .
Nope. You'll see Harpo is incapable of addressing the health care issue after all this is the moron who led the NCC who's sworn avowal is to dismantle health care in Canada .
Their latest effort to prop up the goof is totally lame. Billboards with a yellow ribbin saying "Support our Troops " Yea, that'll do it for sure .
As the Liberals are in total disarray and leaderless the goofs numbers should be at around 60% .
Only one in three Canadians voted for the twit last time, what makes you think it'll be any different this time ?
NO he may be returned with an even weaker minorrity but Canadians have already spoken on giving the idiot a majority .
The softwood lumber deal is well recognmized as a total and complete copitulation to the American's .No votes there .
You and the rest of the neo-cons are dreaming in techniclour if you beleive the moron can pull a majority out of this ass .
No,he is all done to be returned to the opposition benches into perpetuity .
Count on it .
hannibal
5 years ago
FActs for Bloomers:
Health care guarantee
46.9%
Cleaning up government
16.8%
Cutting the GST
14.7%
Support for child care
10.4%
Crime package
9.5%
hannibal
5 years ago
Should read capitulation .
hannibal
5 years ago
(Angus Reid Global Scan) – Many adults in Canada believe their federal government should deliver on its Patient Wait Times Guarantee, according to a poll by SES Research. 46.9 per cent of respondents believe the health care pledge should be the most important priority for the new administration.
Cleaning up government is second on the list with 16.8 per cent, followed by cutting the Goods and Services Tax (GST) with 14.7 per cent, offering support for child care with 10.4 per cent, and dealing with crime with 9.5 per cent.
Read it and weep !
G West
5 years ago
Colin
You're much too clever for me to have to point out that the American project was meant to make Iraq a 'better' place - the figures speak for themselves.
G West
5 years ago
nightbloom
"the common electorate"
You must be joking!
nightbloom
5 years ago
Hannibal - thou dost protest too much...
Gwest, I meant to type "the common voter"...
nightbloom
5 years ago
Here guyz - If he gets stuck, move him with your mouse:
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm
hannibal
5 years ago
Hunh ?
What the hell is the common electorate ?
Explain .
I just pointed out that as the Liberal's are leaderless and said to be in disarray and the fact that Harpo walks on water his polling numbers should be around 60-65% which they are not .
Only one third of the people trust this man with a majority so conventional wisdom says he will be returned with a minority even weaker than the one he has now .
Protest too much ? I think not .
I just keep updaated on current events .
And their platform does not resonate with the average Canadian .
When they find out that he is following Straussian theory they will abandon him in droves .
nightbloom
5 years ago
And your evidence is....?
You doctrinaire Leftists and your "Straussian Conspiracies"...if you didn't have that mythical sop to fire you up in the face of the ongoing disintegration of your 'traditional' constituencies, you'd actually have to begin communicating with the majority of Canadians who live and breathe outside of your stale incestuous ideological echo-chamber.
Oh, and apparently I'm a big Straussian too, so watch out.
Watch and wait - You'll see - The Left is failing to adapt itself to changing realities, at its own peril. You shouldn't be dissing nightbloom, you should be taking notes. Hell, I should be levying a consulting fee for all my constructive critique on these threadz... ;-)
hannibal
5 years ago
Now I know this is a joke .
ROTFLMAO
Don't even know who the new leader will be so where is your evidence ?
That the neo-cons have stolen the Liberal's platform is a certainty .
Glad to hear you follow that moron Strauss .
No, all the Liberal's have to do is put someone in who id anti-war and that will do quite nicely .
I guess if you choose to ignore all the evidence that is your business .
Mark my words. Harpo will NOT from a majority Government .Ever.
All you have to do is see the response of Canadians to their platform and it is less than over whelming .
Colin
5 years ago
Gwest
I agree things are bad, but there is a good chance they will get better and already have. Life in Baghdad and Tikirt just got as bad as the rest of Iraq was under Saddam, however I suspect the Marsh Arabs are happy now that the ecological disaster caused by Saddam is starting to be reversed. Plus the Kurds are doing well. In fact the majority of Iraq is fairly quiet, most of the violence is centered around certain areas. There is a graphic map kicking around the Internet that shows the location of most of the deaths, I will try to find it.
Interesting from an article I was reading it would seem that the “Liberals†(not just the party) are an evolutionary dead end as they are not breeding fast enough even to maintain their present numbers. Also Russia will slowly disappear at it’s current birthrate as will the cultures of most of Europe.
hannibal
5 years ago
Utter and complete nonsense.
Steve P
5 years ago
Have you even read Strauss? I think the so-called Straussian conspiracy is a tempest in a teapot. I had been reading his translations of the classics for years before I heard about this "conspiracy".
Strauss was a classicist who argued in favour of careful readings of Plato, Xenophon and Machiavelli, and showed that a careful reading revealed alternate interpretations of the authors' intents.
For example, Xenophon's On Tyranny was disregarded by many classicists as being philosophically uninteresting. Strauss showed that a careful reading revealed an account of a philosopher who engaged and criticized a tyrant to encourage a less despotic rule without being killed or imprisoned. The interesting point of the dialogue is whether the Athenian philosopher who approaches the Tyrant (a thinly-veiled Xenophon who lived in Sparta) is justified in providing advice to a Tyrant -- would this help the Tyrant establish his rule, or would it help the Tyrant consider permitting greater freedoms and reduce his paranoia? To reduce this to a Bush administration conspiracy is silly.
I think Strauss is criticized for being sympathetic to Machiavelli, who felt that leaders who were too idealist/pacifist to get their hands dirty would effectively hand over the world to people with fewer scruples. Like Hobbes ("life in the state of nature is nasty, ugly, brutish and short"), he wrote during a period of civil war, when the papacy invited French armies to divide and conquer Italy. Machiavelli wanted to see a unified Italy in charge of its own destiny -- since this went counter to the Pope's interests, he was demonized by the Catholic world. Since he saw many atrocities and unnecessary bloodshed through civil war, he placed a very high value on competent, stable statecraft, which occaisionally did things it was not proud of. I think we devalue this perspective because we have lived in a relatively stable, prosperous democracy without significant warfare on our own soil.
Philosophical rantings aside, I wonder how many people who are concerned about Straussian conspiracy have actually read Strauss.
hannibal
5 years ago
Strauss defined a regime as a set of governing ideas, institutions and traditions. The neoconservatives in the Bush administration, who secretly conspired to make the invasion of Iraq a certainty, had a precise plan for regime change. They weren't out to merely replace Saddam with an American puppet. They planned to make the system more like the U.S., with an electoral process that can be manipulated by the elites, corporate control over the levers of power and socially conservative values.
Usually regime change is imposed on a country from outside through violent means, such as invasion. On occasion, it occurs within a country through civil war. After the American Civil War, a new regime was imposed on the Deep South by the North, although the old regime was never entirely replaced.
Is regime change possible through the electoral process? It's happening in the U.S., where the neocons are succeeding in transforming the American state from a liberal democracy into a corporatist, theocratic regime. As Canada readies for a federal election, the question must be asked: Are we next?
This is the truth of Straussian theory.
Like every other neo-con out there you misconstrue everything to fit into your theory.
hannibal
5 years ago
The nobel 'lie' indeed .
Steve P
5 years ago
I still don't see the link between Strauss and, for e.g., the invasion of Iraq in what you posted. All that you posted said that many people in the White House have read Strauss. No link was made between Strauss and US policy. It was a simple assertion with no arguments or evidence.
I don't think I'm the one who is misconstruing Strauss -- you are simply parroting somebody else's lame excuse for an analysis. The paragraph cited no specific works of Strauss and no specific policies which were driven by Straussian analysis. I'm sure that folks in the White House have also read JS Mill, the bible, Mark Twain, and other classics in literature. Should these works also be blamed for the current situation in Iraq?
Me, a Neo-con? Hardly. I was a good leftie until I felt the left had lost its marbles over foreign policy. On most other issues I still am. I yearn for a party which embraces progressive social values, sound fiscal policy, and realpolitik.
Steve P
5 years ago
This analysis follows upon the philosophical works of Plato and Aristotle -- Aristotle in particular provides many examples of this happening. Some would even argue that the current Bush administration is ample evidence of its truth. I question whether Strauss celebrated these opinions, or whether he considered it a sad fact of the human condition. Personally, I think a good understanding of the weaknesses of democracy -- the tendency to encourage groupthink, conformity and oligarchy -- can help us craft institutions to preserve our democracies and human rights. I think Strauss is guilty of pointing out the elephant on the table, rather than celebrating deception and secrecy.
Again, no citation or specific reference to Strauss' work, and how it relates to a specific policy direction.
Steve P
5 years ago
Again, is this a statement of fact or a normative celebration of secrecy?
nightbloom
5 years ago
Thanks for the informed & intelligent commentary, Steve P.
I've been trying to disabuse them of the "Straussian Conspiracy" schtick ever since The Tyee published a tongue-in-cheek work of mischief last year, which revived the conspiracy and gave it a Canadian twist. The fact that Hannibal cut and pasted a sample of this conspiracy-mongering as his "proof" shows that they'll swallow anything the liberal-Left spoonfeeds them provided it compliments their pre-existing prejudices & ideological biases. There's no critical thinking there.
I like the fact that he summarized his cut-&-past job with this comment:
Now is that the pot calling the kettle black, or what.
Steve P
5 years ago
Thanks Nightbloom,
I've been lurking here a while enjoying your posts in silence, since you often sum my own views nicely (Colin, too).
I also read the tripe on Straussian conspiracy posted here and did not think highly of it. I was baffled, went to my bookshelf, and -- low and behold -- it turns out that I was a Straussian without even realizing it =^)
I don't think that the scholar who wrote the article distinguished between the art of interpreting text and normative political writing.
Strauss may be many things, but he is definitely not a "moron".
rob
5 years ago
Coyote, Lynn and Hannibal; thanks for the kind words. Coyote I am glad you found the Green party ideas informative, they are based on a real analysis of global trends and a practical approach to very big issues.
Talking about the Left and the Right is like arguing which leg on a stool you can remove- take one leg away and the stool becomes unstable.
Big Labour is just as short sighted as Big Business and both sacrifice the environment for the sake of their own constituencies. Today we had the job numbers for Canada and, once again, we are outperforming the USA. How can this happen if our economy is so dependent on theirs and our way of life, as Stephen Harper has said publicly, depends on having America as our biggest rrading partner??
No one in Canada wants to be the 51st state and those that do should live there for awhile, put their kids in school, try to get a doctor first. That gives one a very different perspective.
Steve P; good information on Strauss - perhaps we are just aping what others have said about this author but Hannibal has provided a good quote to make the point that those in power continue to manipulate the facts to promote their own narrow perspective. So what else is new, this has been going on for ages.
Yes, but the times we live in now are completely unique in that CO2 emmissions are higher then they have been at any time in the last 600,000 years, based on samples of lake bottom cores. Our society has a certain arrogance that is based on forgetting some simple facts. Recently it was pointed out that the Arctic used to be tropical ( how else could you get oil up there ? ). The USA is very prone to the TITANIC effect- we are too big to fail, too powerful to be subdued,
well Katarina may have pointed out some of the flaws in that arument. Nature and the Earth Mother will survive but our corporate dominated culture will not, at least not in it's present form.
We need to explore new ways of doing things NOW and this should include more focus on the north and northern allies and much less focus on the USA.
nightbloom
5 years ago
Alcibiades, if you're out there: http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article.jsp?id=3&debateId=137&articleId=3605
nightbloom
5 years ago
Another one here. It's Revenge of the Sith, neo-con style. The knives are out for Fukuyama - must mean he's coming out with another book:
http://www.nationalinterest.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=1ABA92EFCD8348688A4EBEB3D69D33EF&tier=4&id=FB9DC26066E249D8BF197A5D9AC067EB
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
You better call Putin as he seems convinced it’s a problem.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4757261.stm
Russia's birthrate, falling for decades, has plunged in post-Soviet times, to just 1.17 in 2004 from 2.08 babies per woman in 1990 - far below the 2.4 children required to maintain the population - according to the Federal State Statistics Service. The average rate from 2000-05 in the US, by contrast, was 2.0, according to UN figures, while Mexico, for example, weighed in at 2.4 and Italy at 1.3.
Russia also has one of the world's highest abortion rates. In addition, the death rate has climbed to levels seldom seen in peacetime, to 16.3 in 2002 from 10.7 per thousand people in 1988. The result is a population that is shrinking by an average of 700,000 people each year - and aging. A UN report last year predicted that Russia's population, around 145 million in 2002, could fall by one-third by 2050.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0519/p01s04-woeu.html
For the US and rest of world
census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-11.pdf
This guy also predicts major changes for Europe
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/nohumans.html
hannibal
5 years ago
Wise words from the three idiots Nighbloomers,Colin and Steve P.
Funny that hardly anybody agrees with your cutting analysis of anything rational .
hannibal
5 years ago
We need to explore new ways of doing things NOW and this should include more focus on the north and northern allies and much less focus on the USA.
Great stuff Rob:I totally agree with all your points.
Katrina was a real wake-up call for America and pointed to their inability to deal with disasters of magnitude.
Now they are prediciting at least 3,storms this season of Katrina size or larger.
What will they do ?
I can see China as becoming our number one trading partner in the future.
Better to influeunce their human rights or lack thereof by having a close relationship .
With friends like Emerson and Harpo running the show it won't be long until the USA owns all of Canada's resources .
What is needed is a new model of democracy where big business pays their fair share of taxes and not given huge tax incentives(breaks)
Ralph Klein gave away over 250, billion dollars in royalties to the oil companies by rolling them back .
Not too smart IMHO .
I am ,very, interested in the Green Party and will vist their site to learn more.
Thanks
Colin
5 years ago
Yea, right except for all those people that crunch the population numbers. Mind you on the longterm bright side China's population will take a bit of hit, as they have an imbalance in male-female ratio's, 25 million surplus males and aversion to cultural cross breeding.
By the way you should look at the Dem blogs in the US, they too have cottoned onto the fact that traditional blue states have lower birthrates than red states. "You're doomed" (add evil laughter here)
When in doubt go for the personal attack.
hannibal
5 years ago
— Leo Strauss, The City and Man
From your hero Leo Strauss
hannibal
5 years ago
Colin: Do babies now come labelled as Con or Liberal.
What you said is quite obvvious that Liberal's aren't breeding .
You should have clarified this statement.
"An evolutionary dead end"
Well that goes for all Canadians/
Birth rates world wide are declining with the exception of the third world where infant mortality is much,much higher .
hannibal
5 years ago
So,let me get this straight.
Neo-cons breed more successfully than Liberal's ?
Man,don't make me laugh .
That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long,long time .
Colin
5 years ago
No I not kidding, as the “neo-cons†as you like to label a huge and diverse group a.k.a. “those that disagree with the left†also consists of religious conservatives who generally have a higher birthrate than the “Liberals†in both Canada and the US. So the population decline will not be equal across the political spectrum. One should also take into account that the group that seems to consistently have higher birthrates in Canada are the First Nation, which will have significant impacts politically and socially as they burst the seams of their reserves. So in few generations me may have lots of FN’s, right wingers with small ghettos of liberals desperately hanging onto their organic coffeehouses.
Meanwhile the Muslims will likely have doubled their numbers to around 12 million in the US alone in the same time.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
nightbloom
Thank you, articles duly noted and appreciated. Much too busy to comment at this time however.
I think the connection between neoconservative thinking and Strauss has not much at all to do with his writings - and particularly his work before he came to America. I believe he had very critical things to say about the nature of academia in the U.S and much of that has been subsumed into a critique of the left - not so much by Strauss as by his 'disciples'
I think Strauss was influential among these guys because of his role as a teacher and an analytical intellect. I think they see him as an exemplar for what they see as their preferred approach to government and foreign policy.
More later perhaps.
More later, perhaps.
rotlin
5 years ago
Hannibal:
Personal (Ad hominem) attacks don't strengthen the merits of your
arguments.
The fallacy that the popularity of an opinion proves it is correct is
called "Appeal To Widespread Belief (Bandwagon Argument, Peer Pressure,
Appeal to Common Practice)"
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#bandwagon
Even if popularity was a valid way to measure the strength of a point
of view there is also the difficulty of measuring the numbers of commentators
who agree/disagree with some stated point of view. Some of us only
post occasionally and at this point in this long long thread there will
only be a small subset of the usual readership getting this far. The
frequent high volume posters tend to drown out dissenting opinions.
Also this website's comment format (single-threaded, narrow column)
makes it difficult to follow any extended back and forth conversations.
More well formed arguments with supporting evidence and less name calling
would be appreciated. As well an emphasis on quality rather than quantity.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, whatever you say rotlin .
Althouigh it may be true that neo-cons are breeding faster that is no guarantee the offspring will vote as their paents did .
In fact quite the opposite .
Quebec has the highest birth rate in Canada so what are we to make of that ?
Not all of them will become separatists or Liberal. Some may become communists or apolitical or,perhaps, even anarchists .
Who knows.
I find the whole premise silly in the extreme .
Those raised in fundementalists households are more apt to rebel than those raised in a 'free' structure .
Besides you are talking of future generations not the present .
It's not like all the neo-con babies are gonna reach the age of majority before the next election .
This view is myopic .
hannibal
5 years ago
Note to Colin:
Traditionally FN's have supported the Liberal's.
puppyg
5 years ago
Is there truth to the rumour that Harper's beheading will now go to referendum?
hannibal
5 years ago
PuppyG: ROTFLMAO. Too funny .
Yea, Doris is gonna organize it .
The brain
5 years ago
And all that smoke and mirrors still saves our feds a mere 10 million a year, says the Cons of all parties, and when it comes right down to it, you will find very few police officers that are against the gun registry, long or short. Sometimes flawed information is better than no information at all and for all the examples you sight of failures, there are 100 times that in terms of success. Ask any cop on the street, and they'll tell you the same thing I just did.
hannibal
5 years ago
You remind me of Jack Layton. He bashed everyone but Harper too! And this is where you go astray just like all the rest. Harper is dangerous. His background is rich with U.S. oil and puritan church support. He's a western separatist and while you so love to bash anything else that is more functional, you and Jack sing the same old song.
As for leaders of parties not making a difference, its like saying Harper doesn't make a difference but we've already established how little you have to say about the man and how much you have to say about everything else. Its pretty much the same thing as praise, in my view.
And Colin:
Your beloved Conservatives axed the long gun registry to save what they claim to be 10 million a year. All of that hoopla of complaint and smoke coming from guys like yourself to save check it out! 10 million!
And meanwhile, the military looks poised to get 20 billion for what you like to whitewash as "military equipment". That military equipment as you like to call it, gets people killed. That's all its for. So while you pretend not to be a war monger, you support them and that means for those who have common sense, that its pretty much the same thing.
Wholeheartedly agree with all points .
Scrapping the registry is just a childish response from the neo-cons because it is a Liberal program .Simple .
And the Liberal's carried over some ewxpenses from one quarter to the next .
Yea, way to go Sheriff Harpo. Scrap a tool used thousands of times a day by forces across the nation to satisfy a few idiot rednecks who already vore for you .
The brain
5 years ago
If you like these points, Hannibal, then take a peak at
morefreedom.org
This site is the National Citizens Coalition site which has gone through many changes since 68', and was more recently ran by Stephen Harper as president of this organization form late 97' to late 2001. He ran this ultra right wing group for 5 years and has been on record countless times for agreeing with everything that comes from this site.
Interestingly enough, the NCC hasn't replaced Harper with another president since he left... and interestingly enough, the NCC's agenda is to end the public ownership and running of all government services:
The wheat board
(so U.S. corps can come in and control it all)
The RCMP
(to help facilitate the breakup of Canada)
The penal system
(we have one of the best in the world. Looking at the U.S. is what Harper has in mind)
Privatization of healthcare
(like every other privatized essential service, services go down while costs go up so its like the U.S. Pay as you go and if you can't pay, you'll likely die if your appendix breaks or you need emergency care. And who's behind it? U.S. insurance corporations.)
The sale of CBC
(facilitates in the removal of Canada's identity and service to the North)
A quote from their website:
They used to be more direct. They called for an end to multiculturalism and bilingualism, major immigration restrictions (which is happening right now under Harper and whats that idiots name, Monte Solberg), union busting (they used the words), increasing pressure for Quebec to separate (to weaken and balkanize the rest of Canada)...
The repeal of the gag law would allow tens of millions to be spent during election campaigns by organizations such as this one. Entrenchment of property rights would allow U.S. corporations to own the rights below surface as being more important than surface rights owners. Its all big business, folks. To date, the Cons outnumbered the Libs in corporate donations by 2.5 to 1, likely on this issue alone. Harper is backed by big oil and insurance corporations from the U.S. to get their way by any and all means, including the balkanization of this country. So they need corrupt politicians, like Mulroney's 25 directorships, and Emersons 7 (not counting his CEO share incentives with Canfor and Great Western Banks). Campbell is no different... with the for sale sign on any and all of Canada's market potential. To accomplish this, decentralization of federal powers, privatization of any and all government run corps and services, ESSENTIAL SERVICES at that, including the break up of this country is needed to accomplish Harpers goals established by and through the NCC.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
A short note further to the earlier debate here about Leo Strauss and his influence upon neocon thinking especially as it applies to the current US administration.
Despite Steve P's well taken general points, I do think there is some justice to the argument that Strauss has had a good deal of influence upon the thinking of some of his former students at the University of Chicago as well as a further influence through the agency of some of Strauss’s disciples – such as Alan Bloom. His philosophy, at least that part of it which follows Plato, does tend to support the idea that true participatory democracy is neither a 'Good' nor a realizable possibility.
Strauss tends to support the notion that the 'mass' of people cannot rule themselves (undoubtedly in at least part because of his own personal experience as a Jew contending with Fascism in Europe) and therefore an elite group must make the difficult decisions for them. It is in this role that the “brains trust†behind the Bush Administration has tended to cast itself. Whether or not Strauss would have approved of the way in which this group came to hold power and the ways in which they have used their version of "truth" to bend the facts and exercise power is quite another question: Albeit a fair one.
Strauss, probably, would not disagree with the idea that 'great men' shape history. Whether or not he would have felt that the current gang in charge, either here in Canada or in the USA, deserves to hang that label around their necks, is quite another matter.
hannibal
5 years ago
Brain:
Yea, I know the NCC has a stupid program right now called "Support our Troops' and save Harpo's ass .
The Afghaniistan adventure is so unpopular the NCC has purchased billboards with the stated intent of raising funds for the families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan .
Yellow ribbons and such .
Yes, Alcibiades contrary to what Steve P brain thinks I has read enough of Strauss until my stomcah hurt from puking .
I totally get what he is about that one must closely examine the treastises of philosophers to understand their true meaning and that there is more than one interpretation .
And you must closely examine what they say to get the true meaning .
Kinda like back masking on a recording"Paul is dead. Ringo is Jesus"
The part that gets to me is the contentin that people are too stupid to understand what the politicinas intents are .
That totally infuriates me .
Harpo is following the Strauss doctrine to a T .
Suckholing to immigrants in an efoort to prop up his Nazi party .
The brain
5 years ago
Interesting perspective, Alcibiades. The main question that needs to be asked on whether or not the masses can "rule" themselves lies with this. Do they have the potential to do so? And the answer is YES. Is this potential easily sabotoged through a combination of media propaganda and elitist will? And the answer, I believe, is yes. Time and time again, this has proven to be true. We elected Mulroney twice. The U.S. elected Bush twice. And who do we have to blame for it when the blame game is played? The majority of voters. Who else?
We've seen it time and time again, where the next generation forgets the lessons and hard earned ones, of the generation that preceeded it. While the principles of right and wrong are fixed and unchangable, new problems that previous generations haven't faced, are emerging. Increasing populations and pollution are of the two two in my mind and so while past generations have learned the lessons associated with the interconnections to the environments that sustain life, including the interconnectivity of life itself, this next generation doesn't have the luxury of time or luck to fail and recover from its failure.
But the variables surrounding choices have changed. We have greater access to information (the internet) than we've ever had before. But the greatest obstacles of the information age are clear. Validation of truth from fallacy or blatant lies, is what is the greatest challenge of any generation but moreso, our present one and the one to follow. With these regards, all teachings and media information must be questioned... not necessarily challenged at first (that comes when what is questioned is put to the test and fails), but definitely questioned and what alarms me, especially with voters in Canada and abroad, is that we aren't doing this with our North American administrations. Why, we don't even question the food thats on our plate in terms of what we eat and when it comes to this... I see an empire ripe to crumble from ill health and premature aging and death alone.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
The Brain
I think there are a lot of difficult questions to be asked. I suspect someone like Strauss, not unlike Francis Fukuyama who is now questioning the uses made of Strauss's ideas, would, if he were alive today, also be very critical of what has been said and done in his name. In fact, not all that long ago I read an Op-Ed piece by Strauss's daughter who actually said as much herself.
I do agree with your concern though. Are voters gradually waking up to the ways they have been complicit in a process that has taken away from them the democratic control of their own lives?
Do enough Canadians understand what is going to happen if they continue to surrender more and more control to a few oligarchs who are not, by any stretch of the imagination, qualified to operate as the wise men Plato and Strauss imagined were necessry to lead a country?
Do we still have an opportunity to rescue this thing before it has all gone too far and the mindless ones take over?
One only hopes that the disintegration of the Bush/Harper foreign policy will begin to alert the average citizen to what is actually going on. The danger is that a buoyant economy may make the 'average' voter impervious to reality.
hannibal
5 years ago
It is not so much surrendered as expropriated .
Harpo and his ilk learned that they couldn't get elected using their platform so they stole the Liberal's .
This is a proven fact and not mere conjecture .
Members of the Calgary School made sure of this fact .Tom Flanagan et. al
They aligned their policies as closely as possible to the Liberal's .
Why do they need a secret society(Cervitas)if everything they do is above board and honest .
Because it isn't and they aren't .
If Harpo was given a majority Canada would cease to exist.Period.
To be replaced by a right wing ogliarchy .
Look at how much power has been concentrated in the PMO and tell me I am wrong .
We have no made in Canada foreign policy it is the American blueprint we are following down the garden path to our doom .
Terror threats aside Canadians does not respond well to jingoism in any form.
Candians must ask. What and where exactly are the neo-cons taking Canada besides closer to the US .
Steve P
5 years ago
Re: Strauss, deception & elitism
Why is Strauss sceptical of humanity's ability to run its affairs democratically? Why does he argue that the ancients hid their true intent?
Because he takes seriously the death of Socrates at the hand of a cultured, relatively democratic (by the standards of the era) city-state. Strauss argues that, since all cultures require important myths (vital lies, in Nietzsche's writings) to live together in peace, publicly questioning these is an extremely dangerous thing to do; yet, as a freethinker, he believes this criticism of sacred cows to be an important enterprise. For example, it is extremely dangerous in our current Canadian society to question human equality, human-induced climate change, multiculturalism, or disliking Bush. Questioning any of these assumptions tends to result in being written off, at best. Strauss believed that it was important for philosophical conversation to continue, at least among those who were willing to question important, fundamental assumptions. Because of this, in Strauss' view, philosophy is inherently subversive -- certainly there are many sustainable development afficionados who would agree in re: to peak oil, neo-colonialism and other common practices that deserve critique.
In regards to Strauss' elitism, I think this can be exaggerated, both by those who desire power and those who are fearful/skeptical of the powerful. I interpret his cautionary stance re: populism to mean that it is important to have representative democracy, with a professional civil service, to counter-balance the oft-dangerous pendulum swings of popular politicking.
Strauss was certainly no optimist, but I think a pessimistic view of human nature is desirable because identifying and addressing our shortcomings is better than pretending they do not exist.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Steve P
I think one of the problems with neoconservative thinking is the evident appropriation of individuals like Strauss who spoke and wrote, as you've noted, about a specific interpretation of some aspects of Classical Philosophy – particularly Plato. Much of what Strauss believed was expressed in terms of his experiences in Europe during the middle years of the last century. His followers, or at least those actors who style themselves in that way, take considerable liberties with what Strauss has actually written. This is the point that many of those who throw around the label Straussian tend to forget. It was clearly articulated, as I mentioned above, in the Op-Ed piece I referred to earlier. The nature of Strauss’s reputation in America is actually quite a mystery to European scholars who have written and commented about his work
Political opportunists have always tried to add an intellectual gloss to instill luster to a program that soon tarnishes of its own accord - as the neocon/forced democratization project is clearly proving.
Colin
5 years ago
Brain
You mean like flawed information where the cops are given the wrong address to raid a house?
Do me a favour, go get your PAL, buy a .22cal rifle, and sell it. You will find the whole affair frustrating and useless. Keep in mind that the CFO staff in BC is one of the better ones.
Here are a few tidbits
Claim number 1:
The registry is accessed 6,500 times per day by police
This daily number of 'hits' has climbed faster that the registry costs, from 2,000 per day just a few months ago to a claimed 6,500 daily 'hits.' Access to Information data indicates that whenever a police officer accesses information from the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) database, it automatically produces a 'hit' on the firearms database, even if it is only a license check for a parking ticket. Also, the registry is accessed whenever there is a firearm transfer, sale or transport authorization check. There is no way to determine how many of the 6,500 'hits' are actual requests for firearms information at a specific location. See the Q&A (#18) on the official website for the Ministry of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness (http://www.psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006...0517-3-en.asp) <http://www.psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006/nr20060517-3-en.asp)>.
Claim number 2:
Police need the information on the registry to determine if a home they are entering has firearms
In order to possess a registered firearm, an individual must be in possession of a firearms license. The licensing information can be accessed by the police officer and would indicate that the household would contain firearms. In reality, police will, as a rule, treat every home as having a potential firearm whether legal or illegal. See the Q&A (#17) on the official website for the Ministry of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness (http://www.psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006...0517-3-en.asp) <http://www.psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006/nr20060517-3-en.asp)>.
http://www.psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006...60517-2-en.asp
- There are nearly 7 million registered long-guns in Canada. Yet of 549 murders recorded in Canada in
2003, only 2 were committed with long-guns known to be registered (Canadian Centre for Justice
Statistics).
Colin
5 years ago
AG report 2006
The criticism that the Liberals are certain to face for their handling of the gun registry may not end with this report either. Fraser's report also reveals that her office is continuing to investigate the handling of a number of the 3,642 contracts awarded for work done on the registry.
The "red flag" contracts include those worth less than $25,000 - exempting them from a competitive bidding process - whose value subsequently increased by 150%; properly awarded contracts whose value increased significantly; and "fixed-price" contracts awarded in 2001 and 2002 that had no measurable goal and no record of a product being delivered.
"The initial value of each contract was below the $25,000 limit, but the final values were much higher: $50,000, $107,000 and $319,431," the report said. "We will be reviewing these contracts in greater detail."
She found that Parliament was "misinformed" about the true costs of the registry. Of the computer start-up costs, $60.8-million - $39-million in 2002-03 and $21.8-million in 2003-04 - was not brought to Parliament for proper approval in contravention of the government's own accounting policies.
The auditor general's report also found that there is a lack of evidence to support the effectiveness of the gun registry, or to prove that it is meeting its stated goal of improving public safety.
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
The FN’s will support whoever furthers their interests. As each FN resolves their land claims and open up their own development corporation, the first people that get the punt are the activist environmentalist groups, followed by anyone that is going to interfere with their financial activities. I would bet on them having much allegiance to any party in the future.
hannibal
5 years ago
Colin splitting hairs is kind of useless .
The long-gun registry was enacted for perfectly valid reasons .
I don't think it,really,matters what the data base is being accessed for .
The police find it a useful tool isn't that enough .
By the way four mounties were gunned down with a long-gun in Alberta .
I would have thought with your zeal you would be glad to support the registry .
After all that money was spent setting it up and getting it running you are willing to toss it aside .
E'cole Polytechnique was also a long-gun incident the one that precipitated the registry in the first place .
I find the whole thing to be highly hypocrtical of the neo-cons who blather on and on about law and order then scrap something the cops actually want and need .
FN's have been traditional Liberal supporters and I don't see that changing any time soon .
The Liberal's are still trying to get the cons to live up to Kelowna .
hannibal
5 years ago
Same link 4,times that doesn't work and the same link published twice with same info.
What gives ?
The brain
5 years ago
Whats interesting about the information you've provided, Colin, is that it looks more like the fault of civil servants than it does MP's in Ottawa with specific cost overruns. besides all this, the Cons are still saying that the cost of axing the long gun registry is 10 mil a year which doesn't seem like much, while it is more than obvious that the Cons are quite prepared to spend 8.2 billion this year on the military and counting.
542 murders in Canada in 2003... I didn't think we were that violent... Two more dead Canadian soldiers today. I wonder how many murdered Canadian soldiers Harper decides to put in harms way will happen in 2006. 50? 100? The 11,000 new troops "shrub" is asking for aren't there for peace keeping.
Hannibal:
The four dead in Alta were done by an unregistered firearm, so statistically it doesn't show but the police knew the man in question had firearms.
Interesting points once again, Alcibiades. :-)
hannibal
5 years ago
Brain: Actually from my understanding two soldiers were severely wounded .
Yea, I know the guys gun was unregistered but they still should have known about it .
The whole town knew he was a nut case with a hatred of the Mounties .
I still think scarpping the registry is folly .
What about the next lunatic ?
Definitely it was beauarcrats that bungled the entire registry the only MP's involved were Aallan Rock and Ann McClellan .From what I remember .
Colin
5 years ago
Hannibal
You are correct the 2 soldiers were seriously wounded and the last I heard that one of them might not make it.
Sorry about the link, try this
http://www.psepc.gc.ca/serv/srch/search-en.asp
Both you and Brain have been hoodwinked into believing that you are getting value for your “10 million a year†(reported direct costs, not including enforcement, networking,etc) All the registry does is to attempt to create a papertrail for a firearm. The problem is that none of the data they acquired from the RCMP was worthwhile and most of the data they have collected was in error or entered incorrectly. All of the “positives†been mentioned about the gun registry have nothing to do with the registry, but with the licensing of gun owners and safe storage, sections of the FA they do not intend to repeal.
By the way since you mentioned polytech, you will find these interesting. Possible the first Islamic terrorist attack in Canada? Sad part is several people had a chance to jump him when his gun jammed or ran out of bullets and they didn’t.
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-398-...massacre/clip1
(you will have to search the CBC archives)
Here are some tidbits
The RCMP Commissioner recently admitted that there was no way that they could tell if the “6500 hits†were automatic or if any were direct requests for information. So even the biggest supporter of this program can’t tell you how effective it is and have not yet been able to trot any case where the registry has been the deciding factor. I sure they would if they could.
QUESTION BY GARRY BREITKREUZ, MP: Two questions as quickly as I can. The RCMP tell us there are approximately 176,000 criminals who have been prohibited from owning firearms by the courts and there's another 37,000 dangerous persons who have restraining orders against them. Why are these persons, who have been proven to be dangerous, not required to report their change of address to police or even open up their homes to firearms inspection, but completely innocent licensed gun owners are required to?
RESPONSE BY FIREARMS COMMISSIONER BILL BAKER: Yes, Minister. On the change of address, if someone is prohibited from having a firearm in the country they are no longer effectively covered by the Firearms Act. The Firearms Act only deals with people who own, possess and use firearms.
Colin
5 years ago
It's nice to know we aren't alone.
Part of an article, link is now defunct
10 years after Dunblane, gun register is 'not fit for purpose'
By Roya Nikkhah (Filed: 11/06/2006)
The National Firearms Register promised by the Government in the
aftermath of the Dunblane massacre has been condemned as "fundamentally
flawed and not fit for purpose".
10 years after Dunblane, gun register is 'not fit for purpose'
By Roya Nikkhah
(Filed: 11/06/2006)
The National Firearms Register promised by the Government in the aftermath of the Dunblane massacre has been condemned as "fundamentally flawed and not fit for purpose".
An internal police report describes the database, intended to carry information on everybody who has applied for a gun licence, as unworkable.
The scathing criticism makes a mockery of the upbeat assessment of the register by Charles Clarke, the former home secretary sacked over the foreign criminals deportation fiasco.
Three months ago, after the Government failed to deliver the database in time for the 10th anniversary of the Dunblane tragedy, he insisted that "good progress was being made".
But a report by Lancashire Police reveals that the current system is so riddled with problems that its officers had to abandon a pilot scheme for the National Firearms Licensing Management System (NFLMS) last year.
In a letter from Lancashire police to the Association of Chief Police Officers' firearms working group, obtained by the British Association of Shooting and Conservation, the system is described as having "persistent and immense problems" and "delays of a magnitude which could not be reasonably expected".
The seven-page letter, which details dozens of other "significant problems", says: "Lancashire Constabulary felt unable to complete the NFLMS pilot at this present time. It is fundamentally flawed and not fit for purpose."
hannibal
5 years ago
Still don't,quite,understand the reluctance of gun owners to register their guns(weapons) if it can save lives .
Cars are registered and it takes more training to own a car than a gun .
There is no second amendment in Canada to hide behind although this government(?) is trying mighty hard to pretend that there is.
It is nuts in the US where anyone can go to a gun show and make a purchase without registering it .
I would have thought that as this is clearly a law and order issue the cons would accept it .
It is dangerous living next door to a country that lives and dies by their gun culture .
That is the problem. If the US had some form of control we wouldn't need one .
Colin
5 years ago
All I can say Hannibal is the devil is in the details, go forth and learn all the facts, it's not a pretty picture. cheers and good night.