Very interesting. I wonder if he included, incarcerated felons in his survey. It would be interesting to find out if these people ever voted or were ever involved in the political process.

Really, there was never any major difference betwwen the American Republican or Democratic Parties. One was just more 'right' than the other. The lack of any real 'left' party in American politics has now left the people with little or no choice. There is no NDP type viewpoint to balance the Senate or Congress and laws are made and passed mainly on the coat tails of lobbiests and their massive funding (or should I say buying off) of politicians.

The result for the Americans is disaster, where after every generation, their collective pollitcal machines lurch in an incesteous goose-step towards a more dysfunctional (remeber huricane atrina)political ineptitude.

Could a dictatorship be not far off?

I would argue that the three core values of the non-voters:

describe many professional politicians, particularly so-called "conservative" ones, to a T. Perhaps these people are not politically inactive at all; they have just figured out that voting doesn't get them anywhere. If they want power, they become professional politicians and go straight for the top.

Good article. I agree with Grumpy, there's no real nDP in the states. When Canadian NDPers try to identify with Democrats in the states there's no comparison. As well, past Canadian Conservative governments have been filled with Red Tories.

With these corrupt, right-wing fanatics and their policies of destruction a lot of odinary people have simply given up on the political process.
Look at the rogues gallery of white-collar thieves in power in the US right now. (and soon to be in Canada aswell)
I would have like to been in knuckles falcone's office when they reported that members of the Squamish nation were joining the Eagle Ridge Bluffs protesters!!
I can only imagine the euphanisms he uttered for our noble native brethren.
Oh and his imperial majesty harper spewed venom when his corporate cronie was rejected for that appointment. Then like a spoiled little child he pushed over the entire set of lego's and stormed out of the parliament!!
Very impressive.

I wish people would stop calling the notion of "survival of the fittest" Darwinism. It hopelessly confuses a political ideology with actual science. It is more rightly called Spencerism, as it was author Herbert Spencer who actually coined the term "survival of the fittest". Darwin actually disagreed with Spencer's ideas.

At its root evolution is about reproductive success NOT survival. Individuals are next to inconsequential, and are in fact only really important in their abilty reproduce, not survive. If an indivdual organism survives to a ripe old age, and lives an easy life, but fails to reproduce it is unsuccessful in evolutionary terms.

"Survival of the fittest" ideologues bastardize evolution in order to give their ideology the patina of scientific "truth". At its root it is really a rhetorical attempt to justify the notion of market competiton. It is, in fact, a fundamental misunderstanding of what organisms do to achieve evolutionary success. In actuality one of the most important determinants of reproductive success is an organism population's ability to form symbiotic relationships within its own population and with other organisms. Humans are one of the best examples of this in their domestication of plants and animals.

As for the subject of the article. Given what I see on the streets of Vancouver, and in talking with most people (forget age difference) political disengagement is not a malaise restricted to the United States. Vicious consumption is reinforced constantly in our so-called market economies. I remember ages ago being disgusted watching a commercial for Crispy Crunch candy bars where a boyfriend-girlfriend couple go to great lengths to display their greed by attempting steal and consume each other's candy bar. Their open happiness at their own greed was the focus of the commercial. Those kinds of selfish behaviours are continually reinforced by advertising, by so-called reality televison, by gambling, by just about any form of popular entertainment.

What is really out of whack, particularly in North American society, is the glorification of individual greed. It currently trumps all other concerns. You only have to look at the negative impact rising gas prices rather than murderous slaughter is having on support for the Iraq war to see that.

Do you think it is much different here? Despite a election with huge issues we only managed to get 60% of the eligible voters out, although that was better than the previous election. The problem as pointed out in the article is neither the people on the left or the right, who are committed to the political process and role of government. It is the people (mainly young) who never bothered to connect to it. While I can understand their frustration, I doubt many of them have bothered to study the other systems being used around the world and seen just how good they have it compared to most of the world. Frankly I think the best thing to happen to Canada is to dump the entire population into the Sudan for 6 months to make people realize how nice it is here. Then perhaps they will take more of an interest in it.

Likely anyone that takes the time to post here, whether left, centre or right already cares about the what happens and takes active steps to promote their vision. The problem is with the people who don’t care enough to try to change anything and focus purely on themselves and what they consider their entitlements.

Democracy is a declaration that all people whether left or right are subject to human frailties including corruption, greed, laziness, power, etc Ensuring they cannot spend too much time in power is a way to prevent abuses from becoming to entrenched. Basically organized upheaval.

I don't think there is anything really surprising here, in this study. (I actually agree with Grumpy. There hasn't been a significant difference, if ever, for a very long time between Repugnants and Dems in the US, or even Liberals and Conservatives in this country-, increasingly including the NDP, in my view. This latter who are more and more like mere "Liberals" and even in pursuit of an "alliance" with them.)

And this is what really lies at the root, I think, of the growing non-participation in so-called democracy within the advanced capitalist countries, that's been there and growing for a long time. as well.

And as what passes becomes steadily more shallow, especially in relation to the real needs of people, my prediction is that this "non-participation vote" will continue to grow.It is a measure of the inadequacy of current capitalist democracy, or what passes for it.

The times are moving towards crisis with the rise of right wing fanaticism, and as it evolves, all the institutions of society including so-called "democracy" will and are being found wanting.

Is 38% of 15-20yr olds who approve of violence to get what they want really higher than the republicans or democrats ? If so, how exactly did the current war in Iraq get started ?

As for these young'uns embracing a dog eat dog mentallity, is that really a concious choice, or a result of being dumped by latch-key parents into a cold corporate consumer society where one is left to ones own devices ?

The more I think about it, the more this younger generation seems a lot like their parents - Pot smoking (psychotropics) hippies going surfing (extreme sports) and tuning out. (not voting).

They learn quick, don't they.

Of course, they deserve much credit for tolerating 600 questions.

As some of the Posters point out above; the trends (Risk-taking and thrill-seeking; Darwinism and exclusion; and, consumption and status-seeking)being exhibited by the "politically disengaged" in the U.S. are linked to the economic system and consumption.

I am sure these trends will be examined by some "entreprising entity" in order to figure out how "we" can sell more sh..t to the politically disengaged!

At one time I was politically disengaged (did not vote), and to some degree I still am (in my 40s)!

What is the purpose of Canada and its citizens? Is it just to make, sell and buy more stuff?

Current politics allow for little comprehensive and thoughtful dialogue (e.g. a national political party is kept out of debate - not that I am swayed by the Greens-especially if their economic foundation is based on the same as the Libs, Cons, NDPs.

What is the Vision? More of the same? Is it a Vision we all can strive to achieve? Is it sustainable?

I would also argue that many Canadians are moving toward a "what is in it for me-individualistic greed" perspective!

What ever happened to the common good?

Society is sick and only a major catastrophy will cause change because people have lost the sense of community. Only through a major world wide crisis will people get back to being interested in things that count, I can hardly wait.

Realist;

Wait no longer, PetroCollapse is at hand.

http://www.dieoff.com/

Of course the movie industry has had a big influence on our society - certainly where the acceptance of violence is concerned. Its propaganda value is enormous and the tobacco industry relies on it.

As I read the above article, I went from wanting to read American Backlash to not wanting to read it - and I really don't know why. Maybe it's because polls are so much a part of our society that the pollsters themselves have become untrustworthy.

Exactly. Churches are empty. I blame the loss of value people put in families.

Taxcutter:
That's rich coming from you! LOL You are such a hypocrite!

A lesson well taught to them, no doubt, by their own global terrorist government.

And the other side of the joke is, Ohmygawd, he's not even likely to know what you are talking about. LOL. What dipshits these right wingnutters are!

Coyote:
Tax Cutup is an invalueable tool, as we know. He demonstrates continuously what ignorance can lead to, and gives us lots of comedic relief.

Sorry I was on the phone when I typed that. It should read "I blame the loss of family values in our society."

and what has caused that ? Maybe it is related to the fact that years ago, when presumably we HAD family values in our society, said family could be supported by one wage earner working 8 hours a day, with the other spouse (usually a woman) home to nurture the children. Dad had time after work to interact with the family.

NOW, both parents must work, on average even longer hours than before. Kids raise themselves, or if you are lucky with the help of a nanny or daycare. Parents have but a few hours after work for family time. often one or both will work weekends.

I watch so many of my friends working their butts off, and then being run ragged at home after work as they try to wedge in some "family time", and I think what choice do they have ? they are stuck.

For me it is no wonder at all that "family values" have decreased: it is being beaten out of people. Actually, it is a wonder that it isn't worse, but perhaps we are still getting there...

-BuN

TC:
Were you on the phone when you posted to the Mommy thread, too?

Humans are classified as apes, most closely related to chimpanzees. Incidentally Jane Goodall has observed chimpanzees sharing food and even giving food to disabled chimpanzees (fell out of a tree etc.) There is nothing wrong with more people studying evolution to gain greater insights into human behaviour or that of other species.

As regards to voting single-member plurality electoral system may have something to do with voter apathy since elected members just do what the party-leader tells them and voters may find this less than inspirational. It is hard to be motivated to vote for a party hack. An STV type system where people actually disagree with members from their own political-party is a possible solution

Excellent article.

It confounds me that so many people see political discourse as a waste of their time. The disengaged are practising a form of stupidity, in my view. So the question then becomes this:

Why would so many young people be so stupid?

Perhaps the shift away from print media to television explains it.

I have observed that the more literate students in my classes seem more capable than their peers of grasping complex, rational ideas. Not too surprising.

Remember this: 50% of Americans heard the Nixon-Kennedy debate on radio, while 50% saw it on TV. The first group believed that Nixon won, but the TV watchers called it a Kennedy landslide.

Wow! A well written, interesting, and realistic article from the Tyee.

Having spend several years in the States (and still travelling there for business), I would say that 90% of the people I associate with are Republicans. However, of that 90% - 90% do not agree with the direction of the current Republican party.

Most Americans are conservative, it is true. However by varying degrees. Of late, the religious right has taken control of the Republican party. They are well organized and bring out their vote during the primary's.

Being religious and conservative is one thing, but when I use the term "religious right" - I do not use it with respect.

These people are driven by conservative societal issues, and have lost their sense of responsibility and fiscal conservatism. To them, the sky is falling everywhere. They spend, spend, spend and accumulate deficits.

In fact, I would say the George Bush is a raving Liberal. He has never vetoed one spending bill, and has increased social spending EVERYWHERE. He has increased military, minority, health, social security and welfare more than any other president to date.

The Democrats = Martin Liberals.

The McCain Republicans = Harper Conservatives

The Bush Republicans are in a league of their own.

America needs a third (or even a 4th) party. The current Liberal party is far left of the democrats and the current Republicans are far right of the Conservatives.

There are many Republicans who could easily join with many democrats - leaving the Hillary Clinton, the Kennedy's and Kerry's with their left-wing party.

However - they have 300 years of a two party system.

The McCain Republicans = Harper Conservatives

The Bush Republicans are in a league of their own.

Good assessment...
When I think American, I think of the time I spent with the Canadian Forces in Germany. Generally, Americans made no effort what-so-ever to integrate with German communities. If it weren't American, it was second grade - and that attitude never ceased pissing me off. If it did that to me as a Canadian, think of how the Germans felt.

Very interesting Davey-Boy.

I watched the debate and I also thought Kennedy won - but I was Catholic at the time.

Bun,

Read your contribution to the thread. Though it was great. Hopefully it cut where it needed to. But most of them will think you are talking to someone else, in all likelihood. :-)

Nonetheless, I thought it hit to the old solar plexus, of what has been going on over this Neocon period we are bogged down in.

And Jacks,

Always funny-, and germane brother.

My experience with the friggin Yanks wherever we ran into them around the world too. With exceptions. Swaggering, cocky assed, Amerikkkan Empire twits. And I saw them in a great many countries proclaiming "Freedom!".

I remember talking to a US kid in Carlyle Lake, Sask one hot summer day when I was approaching the time of leaving home, where his family was holidaying. I asked him how he liked Canada.

"It's alright," he said. I could sense he was having some difficulty with the answer though.

"Think you'd like to live here." I foolishly pressed.

He looked at me and asked, "Ever been to the USA?"

To my negative, he replied, "If you had, you'd know enough to not even ask the question."

Ran into that same smug Aryan Yankee superiority shit in Hong Kong, Yokosuka, Saigon, Hawaii, along the Eastern seaboard, the Med. and in Europe.

Up to now, though maybe its changing in these late Neocon days, it did much to shape my attitude to what I came to see as US Imperialism. And in those days, the whole world was their oyster for the taking. And they did.

Though them even more tough assed little Vietnamese in black pyjamas did bring them up by the short and curlies.

There's a new cynicism emerging in the Land of The Free and Home of The Brave as a result. Hopefully its the marker of a new mental health struggling to emerge.

First of all, at least, don't vote for any of the fuckers, seems elementary.

I am getting rather tired of everything on the Tyee dumping on the Conservatives, often with no factual basis whatsoever. I am not a Conservative, people probably think that I am whenever I speak up for the party, or for people who vote for them. I think that we should respect, and attempt to understand all political views. It is through understanding views other than our own that we can strengthen our own vision.

I am also very tired of constant American bashing in Canada. I for one love the United States of America. I do not like their current government much, but we must never forget that their government is not representative of the people who live there. The same can be said for Canada; Stephen Harper speaks for Canada all the time, but only 1/3rd of 2/3rds of registered voters support his policies. It is time that people start respecting our neighbours to the south and differentiate between the American people, and the American president.

This thread is a good example of why a lot of people are not that into politics.

For example, getting all smug on the Americans: not constructive. But I guess it's better than applying scary data to our own faltering democracy.

Another example: blaming moutbreathing freemarket assholes for the collapse of democratic participation. Or blaming secular liberal romantics for the erosion of family values. Yes, let's turn this into an opportunity to bash the NDP, or Stephen Harper, because that will keep the people who think politics is about so many monkeys flinging shit exactly where we want them: out of the discussion.

Look, I know I'm being a patronizing dick here, but seriously, take a look at this thread. Not voting, or political apathy isn't the "responsibility" of any one political entity — for the most part, democratic non-participation behhoves the reason for being behind any political entity. It's not like Harper or Layton or Bush are telling people not to vote, or part of some dumb conspiracy to destroy democracy.

This is more of a societal problem, and I think it can be articulated as the result of social "ideas" both from the perceived left and the perceived right, as well as ideas from institutions perceived as a-political, particularly universities. (And I'm talking about the institution here, and the idea of the institutional role — not university "members" which I acknowledge are propably perceived as leftists.)

For example, we have a public school system which actively avoids conflict and politics in the classroom while simultaneously rewarding students with adonyne feel-good comments instead of grades; do we really think youth educated in this fashion are going to relish participating in the democratic forum — openning themselves to actual criticism?

Or take the university, which, in the interests of furthering its own legitmacy, makes politics a technocratic exercise: instead of participants, we have specialized — and certified — experts to answer our political questions. Why have an opinion, when the university can provide someone with better opinion certification?

There are multitude of reasons for the present voter apathy — and for that matter, the lack of values in society at large. For the most part, they are not an extensions of party politics.

If I may...the reason why so many people have given the finger to modern politics is that the big political shits were shat a good long time ago. We are left with a bunch of boring old farts.

Let us pretend we are all in the same boat and it is heading towards the waterfalls. We can argue about how one person on this side rows or we can all row together and get to the shore. Getting to shore is my priority.

There are at least 140 million Americans who feel trapped and I will not even begin to talk about BUSH Harper!! Canada lacks any clear vision that could engage people, we need to embrace the next physical challenge which in my mind is protecting the Arctic bioregion. That is a bit off topic though.

Here in Kelowna, our little Green party constituency is working on the momentum we have built up over the last three years. Our project is to promote the use of local food ( Genetically Engineered Free ) for local schools.
So what does that have to do with young disengaged people who think violence is a viable option?

In Texas I saw very tough young people in a boot camp get so excited about their tomato plants that is was unbelievable. In the USA, community gardens have been effective at reducing crime, improving nutrition and revitalizing low income neighbourhoods.

People here have responded very favourably to this simple idea, this includes 50 year olds like me and 25 year olds and low income people and certified organic growers and government officials and people from the food banks and indigenous people.

That is one simple way people can act to take back control from the spinmeisters. Young people want to act, older people like to talk - why can't we do both?

Good article and good discussion. I like hearing from everyone, the tax cutters and the coyotes and everyone in between. Things are going to get real tough before they get better and we need many hands to reach the shore. We need active ideas that can bridge gaps and energize people, AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

Anybody else here the roar of water ?

I've always figured those who don't vote are clueless and deserve whatever party they get. Give me Taxcutter and Capitalism et al over the apathetic MTV crowd any day. At least they read actual books (I hope) and have a point of view.

Coyote;
This morning you said you weren't surprized by these findings. I confess I am. I'd very much like to see the survey and the analysis that produced those three categories.

In my experience, these behaviours are substitutes for more meaningful paths denied them by the leaders of their societies. The disaffected are simply falling back onto sensation, because principled lives are not available.

Their religions have become political, and they are aware that's quite insane. A recipe for intolerance, war, bigotry, genocides. They can't go there.

Their political organizations have become all mixed up with criminal organizations; their business organizations as well, so they look for hope and see leering fools passing up real advancement in favour of (usually wildly excessive) phony profits.

While children are orphaned by millions so the prices of medicines can stay high. While the old and the damaged are pushed outdoors to sleep however they can in a place so rich your great grandfather would never have believed it possible, if somebody had told him.

The politically disaffected, on the other hand, do not share this vision. They see political life as corrupt or ineffective or both, and have become convinced that the only person you can or should depend upon is yourself in this "survival of the fittest" culture.

I look and can't find such a clear split since the fall of the Romanoffs. The world produces enough for every purpose, and it goes for nothing. So insane powermongers can play their stupid game.

I don't think these people are disaffected, politically or any other way. I think they're ashamed. They can't live by real human values, so they go skiing, stock trading, look inward to see only their own little lives.

I don't think it means they wouldn't live bigger lives, if they thought they could. And they do pay the shot for all this madness.

One night, a few years ago, a bunch of politically disaffected people got dressed up as indians and wasted a shipload of tea. Another night, some starving people stormed a prison looking for a piece of cake.

It could happen again.

I would hope if it did somebody would have a good idea about where to go from there.

That's funny Frank. I've always figured those who vote are clueless and deserve whatever party they get!

Speaking of hockey, Frank, How about those Oilers? Are you still in on all the pools with the Sharks?

G, I got my a** handed to me this round. I picked only one series out of four. I'll have to check my roster but I don't think I have a single player still playing in the next rounds. Fortunatley my accuracy is still higher than a Klein Conservative. bada..boom.

Mr Beer, through my eldest daughter I've heard several prospective son-in-laws lecture me on the intellectual heights required to arrive at the decision not to vote in a democracy. Fortunately she's still happily single.

There is no NDP in the USA. I don't know about that. The left side is very powerful there. I am sure we are all aware of the many examples , including Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon, Jodie Foster, George Clooney, Linda Ronstadt, Barbara, Richard Dreyfuss, Chomsky, Jimmy Carter, Dixie Chicks, Al Gore, Rosie O, Madonna, Mick Jagger, and all other notables. Maude Barlow , Jack Layton, Buzzzz, gee I can't think of any powerful leftists in Canada.
How bout those Oilers.

You only named 15 Americans IAMC, they're outnumbered by Canada's NDP caucus not to mention the close to 300 million Americans you didn't name.

I'm pretty sure Mick isn't a Yank and I'm double sure he's not a communist.

Bailey,

We are not substantively disagreed, brother. In fact, we are agreed.

I won't pretend I know where it "particularly" goes from here-, though I have some ideas, that being part of what I think we are all, more or less, save for the neoconazi fanatics who troll our shores, here in part working on. We are probing and attempting to determine what we have here as a real progressive and radical left community, post the fall of state capitalism, or communism, whatever you want to call it, post the collapse of the "socialized capitalist state" of the postwar advanced capitalist countries, and the rise of the new Corporatism drifting towards outright Fascism which has taken the place of all these other models of capitalism.

Where it doesn't go I think, and this study helps make that clear, though I too would like to see the details, is into the current political/party structures of status quo capitalism. They are breathing their chain-stoking last, each and every one. And I think the sense of that is increasingly widespread.

With the question having to be asked here, in my read of the tea leaves, " What's missing from this picture?"

And what's missing is, for example, what we saw in France recently, and all earlier examples of social upheaval leading to periods of radical/qualitative social change. It is, first of all, the disaffected young-, apparently tuned out in various ways, along with large numbers of adults, but more particularly large numbers of vital, spontaneous, evolving and aggressive, grass rooted organizations of "the mass of people". Which has to include the rank and file of trade unions as well as "the new poor", in my view.

They are not on the streets, making clear their preparedness to challenge ruling class power, in defense of their own interests and view of the future. And thereby they are dismissed with contempt, their influence is absent too, from being present in a more vital, volatile and direct action way than the highly formalized and controlled result "voting" system, acting upon the day to day, issue by issue political life of the country and state, mired ass deep in a kind of parliamentary daisy chain around the centre, going nowhere, and actually terrified to take on what they see taking shape out of the ruling class circles of the nation.

(While the CLC is reduced to holding wine and cheese parties for politicians, and other luminaries presumably, in an attempt to exert some kind of influence in Ottaw, for example. Seriously. If you can't beat 'em, you might as well join 'em, seems to be the prevailing sentiment I encounter, coming out of that circle.)

And to break this logjam that exists in society, bogging it down in the neocon driven drift towards fascism, and demoralizing the mass of people into inaction or escapism, it is this absence of a "street life" reality forcing and driving things in the direction of a new social and political reality , that has to change first and foremost. And until it does, we are mired in the very precise place where we currently find ourselves, and ever sliding backwards into a past only the most conservative members of the corporate ruling class really, really want.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

How that occurs and where it breaks, I do not know. All I know is that it has to. And that is the initial direction at least in which it has to move. In my view.

Think Operation Solidarity from 1983, here in BC. Only this time it gets done, done right and it doesn't stop until only one of us, we or they is left standing. We have a serious democracy at all levels of society and integrated into its major institutions or we have fascism. We have "the people and workers" controlling the streets and the institutions of the economy, or the goosesteppers own it. We have our country back, or all our official buildings are flying the stars and bars.

I don't know. I even hesitate to say it. But it seems to me that something wild and crazy, even perhaps dangerous has to happen. Something that will starts the new ball rolling and dragging us all along with it, perhaps even kicking and screaming.

We are waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back. We are all holding our breathe, waiting to breathe again.

Until then, this and worse is all there is.

Coyote
I think Chavez is doing some really interesting things down south; and, given his current trip to Europe - making some friends (and enemies) there too.

"we need active ideas that can bridge gaps and energize people AT THE LOCAL LEVEL." good point, rob.

If you're looking for some inspiration, I'd recommend the NFB film The Take:
thetake.org

Politically disengaged?

No wonder, also when there is a vote in the House of Commons on whether to extend the mission in Afganistan.

Then, the vote count.

Then the Prime Minister says that those who voted not to extend the mission are not supporting the troops?!

People may not support the mission, or the extension; it does not mean they do not support the members of the Canadian Armed Forces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And it would be wrong for any Prime Minister, whatever the political stripe (Pepe La Pue!), to say!!!!!!

As to polls, they should be banned from publication 30 days before voting day. Your vote is supposed to be private, and based on what you learn, know, expect and so on!

Coyote;

It still leaves the question.

The mob is headless, they can act, but not think. When they act, everything falls apart. But with six billion mouths to feed, there's no time for a long period of chaos to fertilize the future, as tradition would dictate.

It would need an idea. A place to go, and pretty quick, too.

Much more likely, or at least less bloody, to work a transformation with the available materials.

I remember during the Vietnam thing some mock trials held in Sweden, I think, of war criminals who were proving unimpeachable. Something like that might again prove effective. A form of legal proceeding, with rules of evidence. The people are the jury, if the evidence can be laid out and communicated.

And, of course, a clear path into the future implied.

I still think Hugo Chavez is getting somewhere. Did you see the several short video clips the CBC has been broadcasting recently about the situation in Venezuela?

The people I saw interviewed from the poor communities there sound positive and full of hope and, for a change, the revenues from that country's resources are actually going to pay for services and goods that the people really need.

As I said before don’t fall to deeply in love Chavez, he is already making noises about accepting the task of being president for life if asked to (how nice of him). When he first appeared on the scene I thought this might be good news for Venezuela, now I feel he is just another tinpot dictator in the making.
Alcibiades
The press is controlled down there you realize?

Coyote
Funny when I was in South America I asked who was the most hated tourist around, I expected that they would say the Yanks, but they all replied: the Germans. They said that most of the Americans they were seeing were trying hard not to be the “ugly American”

The Vietnamese also gave a good account of themselves against the Chinese during a 10 year war after the US left, the Chinese being their “natural enemy”.

An assumption, I think Bailey, which first of all grows out of the contempt for ordinary people that is a part of the "elite" class view of the world, within all systems, and underestimates the capacity of ordinary people, once they are engaged and set in motion, to create their own structures and leadership dynamic. The development of trade unions in conditions of illegality within early capitalism even, attests to this. That said, "the mob", as you say, not I, does have to quickly find a way(s) and form(s) through which to manifest its interest and power, no doubt.

I just don't think it proceeds quite as mechanistically as you seem to suggest-, that a new elite must already be there in place first, to potty train "the mob."

Which leads into and is actually a part of my response to GWest.

As much as I admire Chavez, and I certainly do, as I did Castro before him, and think that the basic foundational work they are doing and or have done within their societies, advancing the interests of the mass of the dispossesed against the previously and still troublesome ruling oligarchies of capitalism, I think they are limited by and have to be seen primarily in the context of their Latin American reality and its complex underdevelopment. This latter which has been a consequence primarily of US imperial dominance over the region, which has sought to keep them chronically underdeveloped as mere raw material, cheap labour and food produce suppliers to their Empire.

Which reality we reflect as well, though to a lesser degree for a complex of historical, geographic and racial/Euro-anglo root reasons.

That capitalism here has "more or less" built first a more technically advanced and productive economy seems to me a given, and that around that and within the "Labour" tradition and history of our people there was won and secured, the limitations only currently becoming clear, a stronger "democratic" tradition and practice. Which makes our concrete situation, I think, different in many important regards even than Latin America's, and that of its revolutionary model, history and current situation.

So I think there is very much a danger in attempting to transplant onto our soil, and into our "social evolutionary/revolutionary" need situation, especially too uncritically and mechanistically, the situation and reality, leadership style and mobilizing models that are very specific to Venezuala, Cuba or any other Latin American experience. At least we have to be very careful about doing that, and do a lot of picking and choosing.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

Ours is a very specific and more advanced economic, social and political model of capitalism, which however much it has come up against the limits of its progressive development potential, therefore I think our people are much more readily adaptable to new forms of economic and other democracy concepts and practice. However much our economy does need some fine tuning and greater self-sufficiency capacity built into it. Meaning that we have to develop very specific concepts for ourselves, about how we radically/qualitatively alter our society and its underpinning infrastructures, in solidarity with the revolutionary people's of Latin America, but very much in our own way.

Likewise, a highly centralized party led structure of the left "may" indeed be the only option available to Latin America, given the low level of its economic development and the failure of capitalism to mature there much at all, the poor level of basic education of the people relatively, the state of its democracy and the continuing threat they face from US imperialism. Which is, in my view, "not quite" our situation. (Though there are a number of important similarities too, especially involving the US Empire, and the threat it poses to all of us, and our desire to control our own societies, economies and destinies. And this should not be minimized either, for only at our peril do we do so.)

So, in short, I think there is room for, certainly here in the early going, and hopefully later, a more flexible, open and highly democratic model of organization and movement building, leading to a fundamentally transformed Canadian society that is unique in itself-, more in line with our own specific realities, sensibilities and potential. Indeed, I much worry about the highly centralized model there is a tendency to want to mimic from countries with an experience quite outside our own.

Though, how this looks from here in time, assuming it comes to develop a life outside my own, and our own collective mind, may evolve to be quite different and in need of adaptations, depending on what our future experience comes to be with US imperialism especially, and the rising Corporatist Neocon State evolving by degree to fascism, there and here.

Absolutely, It was the controlled press and the private media that was behind the thwarted effort to bring Chavez down, don't you know?

If it hadn't been for an independent film team from Ireland that was in the country when it happened we might not know exactly how the oligarchs tried to use the media and a trumped up march to the Presidential Palace to try and get rid of Chavez.

The press is controlled here in Canada, don't you know?

Coyote:
While I agree that what seems to be working quite well - and bringing proper health care, decent food and some land reform from Chavez - in Latin America, is not going to work in this country unless the middle class becomes far more radicalized.

I still think there is a real chance that similar kinds of changes may soon be happening in Mexico. If the US continues on its road to economic disaster, one may well see the time before too long when real changes may actually be possible in the Canadian context. In ways we haven't even thought about as yet! One thing that has to happen is for these fellows like Colin here to realize where their true loyalty and self-interest actually lies and stop hiring themselves out as hired guns for the corruption of the capitalist oligarchs that “rule” over all of our lives. Like the figureheads of the right in Venezuela who fled their country for the US after Chavez was reinstalled as the democratically elected leader of his country, people will eventually have to choose sides in this struggle and stop sitting on the fence.

Colin,

This is something you and one or two others above are having some trouble with, I know. Everybody likes the US people, by and large. I like the American people-, by and large.

And we are going to hear from US citizens, in a quite different way than many a Neocon might expect I think, before this period of history is over. (Their majority is hostile to the Bush government, which needs to be kept in mind.) They have a strong revolutionary and progressive history of their own, that sometimes get lost in the shuffle of the militaristic behaviours of their Imperialist State.

Nonetheless, which behaviours they have been too tolerant of and have been prepared to go along with, and allow to act in their name. Which they must get under control. It is their responsibility. In my view.

Their task done in this above regard, and ours, I certainly expect our two peoples will continue to have the warmest regard for each other-, as people.

Amen, brother. :-) I agree.

James Burns.

I appreciated your comments and concur.

One point I bring a step further, however. The most damaging current ideology out there in North America is not the "survival of the fittest". It is the "dominance of the meanest". The least scrupulous are not only gaining ground, but are thought to be admirable. Listen to the reality TV catch phrases. They are insensitive. "You're fired!", "Goodbye", "You're kicked off the Island", and "Sorry you can't make it as a spy. You love your family. Pack up and go home."

The nasty and inconsiderate are humourous, particularly in the media. Your ad example (a couple stealing each others candy) reminded me of many others. Three come to mind.

1) Two boys have urinated on the outside of the toilet and the floor. The mother of the family is expected to be the only one to care, and must clean it up and also cover the stench with the advertised smell spray. The boys are seen laughing at the end of the ad. Family values?

2) The whole family throws worn, stinking, sports gear in the corner of a living room. The mother is expected to gather it, wash it, and spray the disgusting area.

3) The whole family (including the dog and the father) spills things that stain the carpet and couch. They deliberately hide the spills. The mother is expected to find the concealed stains, and clean everything up with a stain remover. The father, son and dog grin sheepishly, make no effort to help, or to change, but the stupid mother still finds them adorable.

How sickening! People are being encouraged to be selfish, lazy, and abusive. There will be someone there to clean up. There will be someone to pay for everything. Someone will decide for you. You'll be cute and funny and adored. Don't bother to vote. Don't get an education. Ignorance is very funny. Your stupid government parent will look after you. If you do get employment, cheating on your taxes will still be cute and funny, however.

The expression "family values" is in itself political, subjective, and commercially exploited. The political comment "We need family values" tends to mean "I want all families to espouse MY values."

I found this to be particularly offensive and indicative of the writers inherent bias:

Really? So the fact that politicians do not play to the personal liberty and personal happiness and contenment crowd means those that seek fun, good times and forbidden knowledge are wrong? Please I am in that category and I vote because my ancestry fled both Stalin and Hitler's regimes, giving me a keen sense of the danger of having others think for you upon pain of death.

I challenge the writer and those that agree with her to get me $1000 and I will fight for the leadership of the Green Party and show how wrong you are. I have lived/work across Canada and can easily find the signatures to do this.

Go here to vote on the Afghanistan Mission.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

Ranbir wrote:

An STV type system where people actually disagree with members from their own political-party is a possible solution.

Healthy politics is a form of discussion and negotiation. Under the first-past-the-post system, politics is a winner-take-all war with the victor engaging in an orgy of looting to reward the warriors who fought on their side.

When the extreme left wins, they pay their unskilled union friends $250 per hour to mow lawns and sweep floors. When the extreme right wins, they pay their equally unskilled narcodollar friends $25,000 per hour to flip real-estate. Each union featherbedding pirhana takes smaller bites than each real-estate flipping shark. But there are 100 times more pirhanas than sharks, so the total amount of damage done is about the same.

The left claims to care about the poor, but they don't care that regressive property taxes squeezed out of poor people are used to pay union featherbeddeers $250 per hour for mowing lawns and sweeping floors. The right claims to hate drug traffickers. But they love the ultra-rich narcodollar-fueled real-estate flippers.

There's a great explanation of how narcodollars have seized control of real estate flipping empires and stock exchanges at http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars1.html This page includes a picture of the chairman of the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) warmly embracing one of the Colombian drug trafficking kingpins during a mission to convince the narcobillionaires to launder their profits through the NYSE. The article is written by Catherine Austin Fitts, a former Assistant Secretary of Housing in the U.S. She lumps Ritalin narcodollars in with back-alley narcodollars. She explains the multiplier effect when hundreds of billions of narcodollars are leveraged to buy trillions of dollars worth of stocks, real estate, politicians etc.

At http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars2.html Fitts explains: "One of my software tool innovations, Community Wizard, helped communities access data about how all the money works in their place. Accessible through the World Wide Web, Community Wizard was illuminating an unusual pattern of defaults on HUD mortgages and other government and homeowner losses in areas in which the CIA had admitted to facilitating cocaine trafficking by Iran Contra supporters."

At http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars3.html Fitts explains how a group of supposedly socially conscious people reacted when they were told their government pension cheques would likely stop arriving if money laundering laws were enforced and the U.S. economy collapsed as investment narcodollars propping-up the stock exchanges were shifted elsewhere. The majority of these supposedly socially conscious people admitted they would prefer to see traffickers continue to peddle crack to their grandchildren if that's what it takes to keep the government pension cheques coming.

rob wrote:
community gardens have been effective at reducing crime, improving nutrition and revitalizing low income neighbourhoods.

Shooting wars (including neighborhood gang wars) are largely caused by fear of deprivation. The biggest fear is a fear of hunger. A fragile and unsustainable oil-dependent food production/distribution/purchase system will inevitably lead to more wars over oil since a loss of access to oil is perceived as a loss of access to food.

Community-based gardens provide food security and remove a major impetus for war. Greenhouses are an important part of local food security. Properly-designed greenhouses can produce a huge amount of food in a very small amount of space. A large backyard and/or rooftop greenhouse can produce enough basic foods to nourish an average family. Greenhouses can produce food on barren land that is completely useless for open-field farming. They lose very little water to evapouration. They prevent crop destruction by bad weather. Most important of all, greenhouses prevent soil erosion. Most people don't realize that about half of the current arable land now in cultivation will be unsuitable for food production in 50 years. This is largely due to soil erosion. Contamination by heavy metals and other toxins is also part of the problem. Our Agricultural Land Reserve will be of little use once most of the topsoil has blown away and the rest has been contaminated by various chemicals.

No store-bought tomato has ever tasted as good as tomatoes grown in our own greenhouse in our own backyard. No store-bought plum has ever tasted as good as a plum picked from a tree in our own front yard.

It's true that city-dwellers can't raise beef in their back-yards. But no one will starve if they eat rice, black beans and green beans for a while instead of steak. No rational person will go to war because they can't afford steak. Many will be willing to go to war if they don't even have rice and beans to feed their kids.

This is not to say we should all start living off rice and beans from our back yards tomorrow. But it would be a wise security measure to stop massively subsidizing transportation in such a way that makes it cheaper to buy a sack of spuds from Newfoundland than to buy a sack of spuds from a local farm or our neighbor's yard. And every child should at some point in their life, with their own hands, plant, nurture, harvest and eat some tasty tomatoes or other crops. This will impress upon them that in a pinch, they could grow food in their back yards instead of engaging in violence to steal food or money from others.

CC
Interesting post, as I sit here and look at the huge amount of empty roofs that could be used for gardens or for green growth water catch basins. I can see approx 20 roof tops here in downtown Vancouver, only 2 of them are being used for a green space. I personally am a big fan of the ALR concept and think it is important to keep a certain amount of agriculture close to the cities they serve. I also think that a lot of opportunities to utilize space in a city are wasted. My sister, brother-in-law are sort of guerrilla gardeners and my retired neighbours are slowly taking over the edge of the back lane for their gardening.

If you look back at the propaganda literature aimed at the home front during the World Wars much of it revolves around growing their own food, they were called “victory gardens” if I recall correctly.

Also one of the key elements in defeating the Communist guerrillas in Malaysia was the interdiction of their food supply by the British.

Young people are becoming skeptical of politics because we're used to an on-demand world with immediate feedback. We send text messages, emails, and our phone communication is so cheap it's almost free. On the other hand, you vote in a politician and then you get no say in what they do for four years. It's incredibly frustrating.

well, my friends - we have identified a target market... risk-takers and thrill seekers, right this way:

http://worklessparty.org/

all othere voters, active members of the political sphere, the disenchanted by the race to the right... we don't want your vote, we are you.

now who was that that commented that he sees no real disparity between the Darwinistic competitioners and the status-seeking consumers and our dominant political parties? No kidding.

Its funny about the work less party. One would think that most people would want to work less...As a result, they may be on to something.

As a person who's travelled a lot, I have very little respect for the average American voter's knowledge about the world outside the U.S. or the history of the world.

Collectively they can build a helluva computer but don't ask them where Iraq is.

Why would our youth vote? There is little choice between a party that only supports social programs when it needs votes and a party who claim to care about the average citizen while also gutting social interests. Governments who refused to give workers a raise and then voted to give themselves a raise. Both parties again guilty but the N.D.P. admitted it was a mistake when they realized that they had insulted their own supporters. Until we have real choices at the polls why bother to vote for any politician who sets the example of lying, cheating, ignoring and hurting those who lack the money and power to defend themselves. I don't blame our youth. Would you support a car company and buy their products if they openly lied to you and tried to screw you every chance they get? I doubt it and until their actually is a politician who stands up and says enough is enough, why bother. Save the money you would spend on fuel costs and just get drunk or high and ignore the fact that we are being systematically enslaved by the masters of corporate greed. My girlfreind has been a loyal N.D.P. follower for years but, now she wants to vote Liberal based on the theory that if they all want to drive us into the dirt better to be killed quickly than to sufferr a slow death. Obviously, she's not alone in her thinking.

No. That would be stupid. I'd go over to the competition. If they both sucked...that's good news for me. There has to be other pissed off customers, not only me. I'd get their attention and open a new car company that met their needs, thus driving the others 1) out of business or 2) to change to meet customers needs. If we are upset about the governments we get, we have to look in the mirror. We elect them.

As for getting drunk or high, I think that's not part of the solution. How about they get educated and motivated, and make changes that way?

I wonder if people like Mahatma Gandhi, Thomas Hutchinson or Nelson Mandela sat around and played XBOX and complained about things and said

What kind of world it would be.

By the way in case you didn't notice...I threw Hutchison in there to appease the Anti-Americanists on this board (wink).

Tax Cutter: I think we agree that the problems lie with our government officials. I did not speak of my beliefs but, my perceptions as to what the non voting youth feel. Naturally, I to would not buy the car either but, if no other better option existed (Like no other available political party) the people would either put up with the poor quality (vote for an existing political party), or, walk (not vote at all). This was my point. The thought of such a large portion of our population not voting makes me cry for democracy as only those who gain by electing corporate driven parties,vote, and the remaining dissatisfied public simply opt out of the process. I too would like to start up my own car company (Political party), that caters to the best interests of society and not corporate greed but, I have not got the financial resources to do so. I might add that I think I am too honest to be a politician. i do not have all the answers but, at least I would be willing to try and ask the correct questions.

If its a good enough idea, put it in a business plan and find investors and VC's. If you can clearly show them that it would make a profit they'd be foolish not to invest.

Ideologically, this "third" group doesn't sound very different from the neo-liberal and neo-conservative gov'ts currently in office. Maybe it's a good thing the "disaffected" types don't vote... if they ever thought seriously about which party they identify with, the Left would be in serious trouble!