Rafe
You did well, except for your last six words.

It would have been better in context with the rest of the article to have written:
"see the US as others see the US."

I object with you lumping us in with the US.

See why NW kicked you out Rafe, you make too much sense; don't want to upset the neocons and their Arab hating ways!

Voids, you may not like us lumbering up to the US, but guess what, Harper and his gang are doing just that. You see the right wing types love Fascism and all its drapings and the US is very Fascist state.

I guess Ali forgot to get the message out before today.

I'm looking forward to Mr. Mair's next article in which he asks a "typical" Israeli how an apartheid state armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, in violation of numerous U.N. resolutions, and actively engaged in ethnic cleansing, can hope to have western support. And yes, I'm talking about Israel.

Percy
Can you please explain how Israel is an apartheid state engaged in ethnic cleansing ?

Simon_Carlsen

My understanding is that Islamic Jihad was responsible for today's bombing, not Hamas. The bombing has already been condemned openly by a spokesman for the Palestinian authority.

The Israelis have been shelling the Gaza settlements for days - I've not heard you condemn their action.

Your comment, like everything you post, fails to recognize that there are, almost always, two sides to every question.

Percy
Calling Israel an 'apartheid state' is as inflamotory and ignorant as Carlsen's statement just above.

Percy:

Ethnic cleansing? Talk is cheap, ain't it?

Sorry, G. West, I've spent a lot of time in Israel and the West Bank, and done a lot of reading about the legal status of Arabs in Israel (I'm also a lawyer). Israel is an apartheid state. I'll give you just a couple of examples:
1. No political party may be registered in Israel unless it acknowledges the fundamental Jewish nature of Israel as a constitutional principle. For this reason, the Arab population has never had effective voting options.
2. All "crown land" in Israel (which is about 95% of all territory, including all territory confiscated by the state from Arab refugees) is held in trust for the exclusive benefit of the Jewish population. Thus, for example, it will not sell or lease long-term any property held by the trust. (You will notice, if you ever visit Israel, that there are no "mixed neighbourhoods". That's because Arabs have limited housing options.)
3. There is no legal mechanism in Israel by which mixed religious marriages may take place.
4. Israel makes most social benefits conditional on the performance of military service, but does not recruit among the Arab community. (However, an exception is made for extreme orthodox jews opposed to military service.) As a consequence, most Arab citizens of Israel are outside of the state safety net. This includes: access to places in residence at universities, access to cheap home mortages etc.

I'm not sure what your definition of "apartheid" is, Mr. West, but to my mind any state that enshrines legal disability to non-titular minorities (actually possibly the non-titular majority) meets that definition. Hope you are inflamed by the injustice as well.
5not

From the front page of CNN.com:

A suicide bombing that killed nine people today in Israel drew conflicting responses from Palestinian leaders. A spokesman said Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack, while a Hamas spokesman described the attack as an "act of self-defense" against the Israeli occupation.

Act of self-defese? Doesn't sound like they are condeming the attack at all. So, so sad :(

Anybody watch 60 Minutes last night? If you missed it and are interested in understanding the masterminds of suicide bombers, go to cbs.com and click on the pull-down menu.

This is a much better interview than Raif's waste-of-time guest.

Percy:
There's no doubt there are parties in the Knesset who would turn Israel into an apartheid state and there is no doubt that Israel has serious civil rights and citizenship problems and problems with respect to some of its regulatory procedures and habitual practices.

At the same time, there is currently no constitutional reason why Arabs cannot exercise the full rights of citizens in the Israeli state and numerous Arabs do so - many of them in mixed marriages with Israeli citizens.

There is no doubt in my mind that the situation between Israel and the Palestinian territories is, at the moment, a state of - to use a Canadian term - apprehended insurrection. To suggest that such circumstances permit and encourage the full range of human rights for Arabs and Palestinians within a Jewish state is asking too much in my opinion - especially given the complex and conflicted role of orthodox religion in the Knesset. At the same time, I think it’s necessary to acknowledge that, during the extended period of peace after the Oslo accord, no one was claiming that Israel was practicing apartheid. Normalize the relations between the parties in some functional and practical way and the points you describe will disappear….just as they did then.

Another Empty Intellectual Exercise from the kind of mind that brought you the problem in the first place .

Just like the kinda kids that used to put a snake in box,then find out what other creature they could put in there and What would ensue would be of great Intellectual Import

The United States wanted a foothold in the east and no better covert/overt base could be better than Isreal ,espescially when you don't even have to occupy it with any of your own(Amerikan) soldiers.One need only look at the amount of WEAPONRY and the COST of it and WHO SUPPLIED IT,to know the politics here .

Rafe
Haven't always been a fan of yours but I'm definitely warming up. Rather one-sided interview with you letting Ali have his say.
You've changed.

Liked this statement "When the West does it, it's OK, but when we do it, it's evil. In fact, it's all terrorism with different explanations, depending on who's doing it."

It's definitely all about oil - and as unfair and scary as it sounds, the general public would rather see oil in the hands of big business than in some middle east regimes.

Hi, G West:
Hope all is well, brother.

After reading the thoughtful entries of Lynn, Coyote, Frank, yourself and others, I'm developing a bit of a mantra these days on U.S. foreign policy.

The U.S. empire has been under a war hawk regime since Bush took over (some say stole) office. This war on terror, or so it has been labelled, is really just another war on nations who will not put their assets up for sale on international markets. Just take one good look at U.S. foreign policy and tell me that all of their coups and invasions over the decades haven't been with a nation that has nationalized its assets.

Is there an old boys club? A who's who of major shareholders in every market known to man that wants to own more, own it all? You and I don't know all of their names, but this major shareholder club exists and I don't have to talk about skulls and crossbones or free masons or anything else that suggests conspiracy. Its not that complicated. Its about fat cats who want to own resources that they don't already own now.

Canadians know or should know U.S. foreign policy well, as we have been waging battles in an incessant war created by the U.S. empirical ideology of capitalism to own everything we have, and so far, we have sold out to them in a large way. Our governments, Conservative or Liberal, have trickled (and in the Mulroney era, flooded the U.S.) our assets to the U.S. empire on paper through the markets. Even now, its happening with M & A's. Our Canadian federal governments have over time, recognized that 'OWNERSHIP' is what it has always been about, and so when we look at world ideologies of governments, it comes down to these general three:

Theocracy: 'God owns our assets and this world, and all life'. Unfortunately, most, if not all leaders of theocracies use religion to exploit their own people in the form of controlling everything, from each nations will to their economy. Often, the tendacy is to nationalize assets, but not always.

Communist/Socialist: Everything is owned by the state. This ideology has obvious flaws. Firstly, there is no recognition of the differences in potential and purpose, from individual to individual. All efforts, large are small by the individual, are treated the same and hence, there is no incentive for people to fulfill or exceed their potential once it has reached that 'average' effort. But this major flaw is paled by the competition set forth from nation to nation or state to state, even to the point of war. This world simply can't buy into ideology so hopelessly flawed. Too disfunctional, especially in practice.

Capitalism: Everything is owned by the individual. While the incentive is obviously there to work hard at owning a piece of the planet, the most fundamental flaw of all in capitalism is that individual ownership is not often accompanied by 'PRINCIPLES'. There are a great many individuals out there who do not ask what is best for the land, or oceans, or skies, or ecological systems... they just ask what is best for themselves, justifying whatever it takes to make a buck to support their human paradigm, their individual view of reality that in truth, is quite finite, with our environments holding the evidence of our individual actions long after were gone.

In other words, when we see the destruction of environments and the war that has been caused internationally by the conquest for ownership and control of the masses, we see what has caused the mess we are in today. It comes down to ownership.

Cont.
Our ideologies are hopelessly flawed because we are trying to own, either as individuals, or as nations or states, what we value in human terms as assets, things that we simply cannot own. At best, its all on loan. Can we take it with us? No, we can't and this is to the shame of many for not even recognizing it.

Which ideology is best? Theocracy? Socialism/Communism? Capitalism? All have their flaws because they are systems created by man. All have their flaws because we are flawed. And everything has to be so black and white, so polarized due to pride, ego, whatever we want to call the refusal to admit that were not always right, and when the fog lifts from our deluded goals of ego stroking, we realize that the best 'system' that can work is a combination of all three.

Who in there right mind can infactically deny that the possiblity of a life form much older, much more intelligent cannot exist in a universe of such a grand scale? Who is dumb or naive enough to declare that such a life form capable of designing life as we do cars cannot exist after a mere 40 or 50 revolutions around the sun? And who can declare that a life form that drops seeds of simple life knowing they'll evolve into much more complex forms from the tests of changing environments over long timelines and the scale that Earth presents, cannot exist? Who's world is this small? Someone who declares the principles (not to be confused with the practice) of theocracy has no merit because they can spell 'dogma'?

And who can declare that socialist inspired crown corporations and systems such as BCAA, SGI, public medicare, (all of which the U.S. empire wants to do away with, of course, to expand their markets so they can 'own' more of us) doesn't benefit the average Canadian due to stablizing pricing and protecting the consumer from greedy monopolies that hose Eastern drivers to this day? Who is dumb enough to say that Capitalism is the answer to it all?

And who doesn't believe in environments that can spawn the Frank Stromachs of our day, creating multi millionaires, even billionaires in just one generation? Who doesn't wish or at least hope for an environment that can give us this 'albeit materially inspired' american dream? (I know. Someone who aspires to a greater purpose, I know.)

And at the same time, who is dumb enough not to recognize that the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the sizing up and vocal propaganda by our corporate owned media spinning out trash and smoke for the next capitalist spawned war against IRAN or the next nation who defies capitalist ownership through nationalized assets and closed markets to the world?

Were in a war in Afganistan with bodies coming back in bags and our media hasn't even got the guts to call a spade a spade. Its not peace keeping were doing there. Its boot licking for the U.S. empires fat cat wants to own middle east assets (oil) on paper.

The way I see it is that the best system that humanity can come up with to govern itself is a combination of all three. Theocacy: Ultimately, God owns it all. Socialism/Communism: For the good of the colony. The nation we live in. Capitalism: For the good of the individual's best chance for growth. The question of course, is that if the best system is a combination of all three, what kind of combination will it be? Something like what Canada has now (although it needs improvement)?

How much and what exactly can the individual own? (try their own decisions for a start) How much can a nation own or call its own? And finally, does the existence of God even need to be proved to respect the ecological interconnections of all life on this planet and respect our human role and responsiblity with this? For ultimately, we are not just responsible for our own lives and the lives of those who are dependent on us, but for the future generations to come.

There was a nice little piece on our own Arctic Sovereignty on the late news last night when we got back home,so i only caught a bit.But,like they said,in the future ,someone will DEBATE OUR CLAIM and for those that remember,how about all those Factory Trawlers scooping up fish during the Cod Wars with Spain ,Portugal,etc .Hell,they are not even on our border like the Amerikans .

Just a response to Mr. West. There is no legal mechanism for marriage between two members of different religious communities in Israel. Israel will recognize marriages contracted abroad, however this leads to the difficult issues of what rights should be accorded the children. I am not aware of any jewish-moslem marrage existing in Israel, but maybe you have better information.

Percy,
Can't speak for Mr West.
Ha'aretz has had some interesting pieces on the way Israelis have gotten around the marriage thing as well as on actual efforts to bridge the gaps between the two communities...often by marrying abroad. The impact of orthodox religion – even as to the definition of what actually constitutes a ‘Jew’ is very problematic. I read in Forward today that American Jews are now challenging the Swiss bank settlement because of the proportion of those funds that have been going to needy Holocaust survivors in the former Soviet Union. Go figure.

Without some kind of viable agreement, a real commitment for which neither side has evidenced a lot of practical support, it's hard to judge or apportion blame from our perspective. Most Israeli commentary about the situation seems to acknowledge that things went pretty well after the Oslo agreement until the Bulldozer got involved.

I think, with both Arafat and Sharon out of the picture that the Palestinians are making real and mostly successful efforts to stop the terrorism - it remains to be seen if Olmert can step up to the plate now on the Israeli side.

On the other hand, the situation in the ME is so fraught that everything could suddenly spin out of control again if Bush isn't careful...then, all bets are off.

.

Good to see you back, The brain. I think I have been mixing you up with "brain" sometimes, another poster, but now see the difference in writing styles etc.

Bang on... that above quote of yours. That's really what it's all about...we become a serious threat to Amerika when we decide to nationalize our own resoures....how dare we even think of wanting to control our own destiny...

To those drooling fat cats the whole world is seen in terms of their own self-interest...the worst and most dangerous kind of narcissim...

We, (our assets and our resources) are all just a tempting bowl of savoury kibbles for them to feast on...problem is... they are compulsive over-eaters...nothing satiates them...

Perhaps one day while gazing rapturously at their own reflection in a bowl of creme de la creme milk, their ever widening bowlful-of-jelly tummies will make them tip ever so slightly, causing them to lose all sense of balance... and kerplunk!... they drown in their own rich milk. (Ed Deak says this always happens eventually, anyway). ;-)

Interesting idea on ownership...it's kinda like that google earth thing...but in reverse, first you see your own home, zoom up a distance, then your town, province, country, North America, Western Hemisphere...then the World....all borders disappear. Now if we could zoom back from Jupiter...imagine what a change in perspective we would get...to see how truly alone and precious we are.

Not that I know much about physics but I like what Einstein has to say below... fits in quite well with your final paragraph I think:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty".

"I'm looking forward to Mr. Mair's next article in which he asks a "typical" Israeli how an apartheid state armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, in violation of numerous U.N. resolutions, and actively engaged in ethnic cleansing, can hope to have western support. And yes, I'm talking about Israel." Percy.

I'm with Percy.

And Israel is an apartheid state in the context that it is made up and was founded in the aftermath of WW2, in fact, by largely European and US Jewry, certainly as its founding people, and in order to do so carried out a terror campaign to drive out the native Palestinian population. It is from that time that the current Palestinian diaspora that occupies now many Arab states came, and which drives the conflict with Amerika and Israel.

I know many of you have this image of Israel and the Jews from the Biblical texts and times, and Western propaganda of course, but the Jews were, in fact, long ago driven from Palestine by the Romans, and scattered through the rest of the then known world, becoming East Indians, Iraqis, Russians, Germans and French et al. And the Palestinians were one of the tribes that shared Israel/Palestine with the Jews, even before that time. (Native Americans have a more recent and better claim to "reclamation" of the lands we now occupy, frankly, in strictly legalistic terms.)

What is currently occurring, and overlooked by the Imperial Western States, primarily the US Empire, and before them the British, is that first, the Palestinians are being compelled to compensate for the crimes of Europe against the Jews, especially the Germans, by surrendering their lands to them. And additionally of course, Israel is being used by the US Empire and the rest of Europe, to assist them in controlling the Middle East. It is a "You scratch my back and I will scratch yours", intra-imperialist arrangement" against the Palestinian people.

If it is anyone who should have given up land to the Jews after WW2, it was Germany and Austria etc,, and the Russians, who had a long history of pogroms against the Jews.

What the Palestinians are doing is waging, in my view, a legitimate struggle of national liberation to recover what was stolen from them by European and US imperialism, in a kind of new "Final Solution" to its "Jewish problem".

It will not stand the long pull of history in all likelihood, in my view, but only until the collapse of US power in the Middle East, which is and has been the main backer of the so-called State of Israel-, for its own purposes of controlling the Middle East.

It is in this context that Percy is entirely correct, that Israel is an "apartheird state", and one need look no further than its "security wall" for the evidence of that.

People have the right to resist foreign occupation. The US does, Canada does, even if it were the mighty US Empire itself. Iraq does. And no less do the Palestinians, by whatever means.

Good one Mr. Mair.

You could go even closer to Palestinian life. The constant roadblocks, the 'security fence', the extra judicial killings, the control of all points of entry, the econimic despair, the rockets into permanent refugee camps.

What people don't understand about Hamas, is that if you radicalize a people, they will be radical. They could not acept arafat's offer, who conceded land to Israel post 67 green line. They insisted their right to build settlements on occupied territories, and they insisted on not negotiating the right of return. So, in turn, the people ditched Arafats party and elected Hamas.

Coyote
I think you've summed up the history pretty well. Maybe the label apartheid is a justifiable one and maybe the reason we in the west are so reluctant to use it with respect to the Jews is at least partly a result of our own residual guilt on the one hand as well as our naive hope that somehow this issue can be removed from the table and they can all just 'get along.' Sort of the reliable marriage counsellor paradigm - to borrow one of murdock's appalling labels.

Are the minimal conditions for some kind of an accommodation available? Despite the fact that the Palestinian point of view has validity in the context of the post WWI world, what do we do about it now? Nearly 100 years have passed since Balfour started to screw it up.

Pushing the Jews into the sea is no more a solution than hiving the Palestinians into discrete enclaves behind a concrete wall. In the end, the international community (and not just the United States and Britain) have to recognize their responsibility in this matter and bring more pressure to bear toward finding a real solution. The American approach, as currently practiced by the chief chimp in charge, is clearly not going to work and has, in fact, been a major cause of the developing skepticism about American motives on behalf of all the residents on the middle east - including, I'd suggest, even many Israelis.

So, what to do? Seems to me that is about as far as any of us actually get in this area. In the end, given the background, I think the most positive possible thing for Olmert to do, and to start doing it right now, is to sit down to talk. He's leading a new government; in my opinion, the ball's in his court - despite the terror bombing of today.

I expect Rafe will present a dialogue with an Israeli 'friend' next week. That kind of ‘balance’ seems to be (or always used to be) a Canadian characteristic: Not so much anymore, I fear, given the current chimp in charge in Ottawa.

And no one is supporting the Palestinians, outside of the Arab States, especially in the West, for a very simple reason. All are heavily invested politically in the State of Israel, and in the case of many of the more overtly imperialist states, materially to significant measure. They are all dependant to one degree or another, very much, on US Empire control of the Middle East to keep its oil flowing to them, despite their unwillingness to provide their own troops, most of them, for the purpose. (Even Canada comes to mind, doesn't it?)

If nothing else typifies or characterizes current global capitalism, and all the states in which it is found, certainly hypocrisy, double standards, and bending the knee to Washington does. Ditto the UN, with but rare exception-, even then, it bends to the will of The Empire eventually, as the rule. There is always a rationale for Amerika's excesses, of course.

And again, if the Jews are ever driven out of Israel for a second time, and I hope that the Palestinians and so-called Israelis can eventually work out a mutually agreeable "Single State" solution, the historical "Jewish problem" that has so plagued European xenophobia returns home from whence it started its journey. So what we have to here around this issue of Israel/Palestine is another kind of version of "Victor's Justice" still prevailing. (And for that to be anything else, and a solution to the Palestinian "war of liberation", the Jews are going to have to content themselves with being a minority, in a "majority" Palestinian State.) For in order to challenge Israel for all its UN violations, its war crimes against the Palestinians, and its possession of nuclear weapons, one must be prepared to challenge the will of The US Empire. And no one to here, certainly of the Euro-American States, is prepared to do that, even over US Imperialisms own war crimes. (They will only do that in the case of Serbia and other small and weaker States that the US Empire interest agrees to, and where it is relatively easy for them to do that with impunity.)

The Empire and Israel, of course, are opted for a "two state solution" which I doubt, though one never knows, that the Palestinians will ever agree to. They along with most of the Arab world are simply trying to hold on and endure until the collapse of US Empire power in the Middle East, and saying what they feel they have to, and everything, including the strategic position of Israel, changes more in favour of the Arab peoples as a whole.

More far sighted Israelis, and some have been linked to here from time to time, as well as Palestinians, understand that if there is a final solution, it has to allow for the right of return of the Palestinian people to the land they were driven from, which is Israel entire, the creation of a secular rather than either Jewish or Muslim State, and in "One State", which will be a majority "Arab" state. Without that, in my view, there is no peace in the Middle East or Israel.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1027-14.htm

The current status quo for Israel only lasts until the defeat of US Imperialism, nuclear weapons or not. It is too overwhelmed and surrounded in its Arab neighbourhood, the day after the US Empire leaves.

Not everyone is like Canadians, at least Canadians to here; prepared to accept and tolerate foreign domination. We have been on our knees so long vis a vis first the British Empire and thereafter The US Empire, that we have forgotten how to even stand up on our own anymore, it would seem. :-)

Coyote
I think Clinton, and Carter, had actually tried to involve the US more constructively in getting - or sustaining - some kind of dialogue. Look at how long it has taken the Irish to get to the point they have in Northern Ireland - still a long way from perfect - but a hell of a lot better than what had been going on. That took, not just British adaptation, but a pretty widely involved international effort...including de Chastelaine (sp?) from here. Unfortunately, hot from his ‘success’ in Ireland, Blair took that achievement as some indication that he had magical powers and decided to join the Bush crusade in Iraq to terrible effect. I don’t have much good to say about Paul Martin but at least he knew this country well enough not to get involved.

Just leaving this turkey to the Americans, who have totally dominated and intimidated the other parties working on the Israel/Palestinian situation, is a disaster, the magnitude of which we're now seeing. My biggest worry now for Canada is the way our current PM is sliding into, even welcoming, the problems we're going to have to wear because of his blindness about his current partner. Unlike the "Shrimper's" little dance with Condi this is going to cause us a lot more than embarrassment.

Yah, Lynn: :-)
I tried to pick "brain" initially, but it was taken so I took "The Brain", something I like less, and I should have had the foresight to look in and see if I was cutting someone elses grass with a cruise through arhcives, (we like our brands and originality after all) but didn't... and so here I am. You can find an interesting recent experiment of mine at

garth.ca

as well. And note the cut and paste. ;-) Always glad to read your words, can never find a reason to disagree with you, although I find the time to disagree with myself, quickly enough. (spotting the flaws is a positive, I guess, humbling as it is) And the weathers getting warmer and I'm getting busier so I'm in and out now. And that quote of mine... its my mantra these days, for sure. The empire is Pinky and The Brain all the way, wanting to own and control the world as always. And then what... everyone must learn how to play a musical instrument? Or with walls in our back yard like Palestine to break the boredom?

I love your take on Einstein. He truly was genius, seeing the macro for what it is on multilevels. I appreciated that quote. You're a deep woman, Lynn and it looks good on you. Who was it that once said, "you gotta swim deep to catch many fish. Swim shallow, and you get caught yourself." ? The dolphin guy, clubofrome, I think, would agree.

And I liked that catch phrase you used. "Those who know better aren't doing better." I'm apt to put that one to use myself, but hopefully not to frequently, lol.

Coyote:
Hey, brother. I concur. An interesting irony with Palestine lies within the book of Nehemiah in the old testament, since you brought up the biblical view. A quick summary of the book of Nehemiah is about a wall the Jews built to defend themselves against their enemies. As it is translated perhaps poorly, I suspect, as I look for parallels or dual if not multiple meanings to words and if translators can't recognize them, well, point is, the literal is emphasized in the English version of what the Roman empire's cult of the day once called Holy scripture. Either way, the English version is one that has the effect or tone that is suggestive of taking the narrators words literally. (this stuff isn't like Moses works that are highly suggestive of names, animals and objects that have plural meanings, speaking to interpreters specifically, that know what to look for) Several themes around this book are suggestive of Jewish ideology if we can call it that (cause really, its more correctly human ideology), that has survived to this day.

There are, of course, deserving critizisms on a literary book review point of view, you know, with the removal of "Holy" or "Sacred" from its more appropriate description of "text". There is an interesting passage that suggests Jews keep separate and clean from neighboring nations when it comes down to selecting mates... The book of Nehamiah to anyone who knows it, is a true irony to our current day, too much so for me not to mention it.

Today, a wall around Palestine continues to be built. We can google Earth these days to see it growing. There are plans to build a wall around Palestine in its entirety. Imagine living beside a nation that builds a wall around you and expropriates 14% of your land to pay for it. I'd be a little pissed off if I had a neighbor next door try that with my back yard. Can't see Palestine as being listed as one of the top ten most desirable places to live... or Israel either, for that matter. Sure makes me appreciate where I live, Coyote.

Just as a tiny indication that Israeli opinion on this question is far from monolithic, I'll post just three paragraphs from Ha'aretz of April 9. Written by Gideon Levy:

For the information of all the anxious: There is no hunger in the territories. No baby has died of malnutrition; no child is walking around with a swollen belly. There is no lack of flour, and from Rafah to Jenin rice is available. Let the tongue-cluckers relax: The talk about a "humanitarian disaster" is exaggerated. The international relief and aid organizations are trying in despair to cry "wolf," to alert the Israelis and the world and enlist them in the cause to save the Palestinian people, knowing that only exaggerated talk might move anyone. They might be right, but their calls are coming too soon, and also much too late.

The use of the term "humanitarian disaster" is actually proof of the dehumanization of the Palestinians. There's no flour? "Humanitarian disaster." There is flour? Then there's no disaster. There's an assumption that all the Palestinians need is a daily serving of food so they won't be considered disaster victims. It's enough that they have water and food in their troughs to conclude that their situation is fine. But human beings, including the Palestinians, have a few other basic needs as well.

The real humanitarian disaster in the territories began a long time ago, and it is not hunger. Those who regard the neighboring people as human beings know this very well. It is true that the dimensions of the disaster are worsening, but that's been taking place over years, and the food index is not the only measure. The cessation of the flow of funding since the rise of Hamas might threaten to depress the economic situation even further, but the thought that if they only have enough food, their needs will be satisfied and our conscience can be clear, is outrageous.

The problems of the Middle East; the problems of Israel and the Palestinians; the problems of so much of the world; are, as lynn and Coyote and the Brain point out, inseparable from the problem of that gargantuan neighbour of ours threshing about wildly like some blind Sampson jilted by his lover and left with strength but no apparent self control or reason.

Until he brings down the temple around him we will have no peace.

I've referred elsewhere to a book readers may be interested called The Other Side of Israel [B]by Susan Anthony, a British Jew who, at aged 50. migrated to Israel, immediately received her citizenship and went to live in a town 0f 25,000 of which she was the only Jew.

On the point of terrorism, if one defines terrorism, as the use of force against civilians to achieve concessions from their government, there is plenty of it go around throughout the Middle East and, as pointed out in the article its hard to argue that the Western Allies, as well as the Axis powers, weren't employing terrorism when they bombed cities.

almost all the Arab countries around israelused the 1967 war as an excuse to "ethnically cleanse" themselves of unwanted Palestinian populations. The Palestinians sided with the Arabs, believing the Arbs would win - afterall the Israelis were vastly outnumbered and attacked from three sides.

The made a bad decision at the time and still suffer teh consequences, with little hope for their future. As long as the hard cores in Fatah and Hamas, with encouragemnet and money from Iran, rule the roost, there will be no peace, only more innocents killed bu suicide bombs and Israeli retribution attacks.

The Middle East is so screwed. Always has been and likely always will be.

Some interesting comments. In a way Percy is correct, Israel is a sort of Apartheid state. Although they do have Arab-Israeli citizens, citizens of Jewish ancestors do get preference. The continuation of Judaism and the State of Israel are deeply linked, it is the driving force behind Israeli policy. However, the same situation applies to the Palestinian territories and other Arab states and even selling land to a Jew can bring severe penalties including death.

The best Population estimate I have seen for the region circa 1948 was 900,000-1.2 million “Palestinians” and 600,000 Jews. Keep in mind that the British government had been up to WWII mostly pro-Arab and had at the bequests of influential Arabs restricted Jewish immigration while not restricting Arab from moving in. So the difference in numbers was already artificial and there was enough persecuted Jews around the world that likely could have immigrated if allowed, evening up the numbers.

The “two state” solution was a Hodgepodge of areas that was based on current population at the time. It was not a practical solution or a long term one. The idea even back then was to force people (both sides) to move into the appropriate state. The surrounding Arab countries made it known and gave speeches to the effect (I will try to find it) that they would never accept a Jewish state and would drive them into the sea. They tried to do so and failed not just once but several times and if it wasn’t for the demands of Kissinger the IDF would have made it to the outskirts of Cario in 73. The Israeli’s have nukes means that they can relax a bit and use negotiation rather than force, which they have been doing quite successfully.

Israel has given back far more land on a percentage base than any other country that I can think of. Also a “Palestinian” state does exist, it’s called Jordon, it just happens to be run by Hashmites (despite efforts of Arafat to overthrow them) The Palestinian Authority/PLO have been kicked out of almost every Arab state they set up shop. After awhile they would bit the hand that feeds them.

I feel for the average Palestinian they are caught between a rock and a hard place. The 2nd infadita has been a dismal failure, the PA and Fatah were so corrupt that they made a bunch of fanatics look ok. Hamas is not “one vision” This affair running government will hopefully bring the moderates into power. I don’t blame Israel one bit for cutting off ties. Would you give money to someone that swears to destroy you and everything you believe in? If Israel was stupid enough to draw back to the 67 borders, Hamas only said it would talk and consider accepting their existence, they certainly made no other promise. Hamas is at a crossroads, do they become a political party or terrorist/war based party?

So The Brain, you are William Stratas, are you. I'm sure both Harald Kann and Allan will be glad to know you.

Colin . . . your comments are accurate. And now we have Hamas, the sock puppet for Iranian Muslim extremists, running the show.

A peaceful future looks bleak, but it has for thousands of years, so c'est la vie in the Middle East. Despit recent propaganda wars that the Palestinians and their useful idiot allies in continental Europe and the "progressive" west have used to claim the moral high ground, Israel is a much more moral state, with a real democracy and a functioning justice system. The Palestinians remain lawless and fundamentally corrupt from the ground up - whatever the reasons and excuses.

Logjam 603
How would the Palestinians have been any better off if they hadn't sided with the Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians in 1967? It's clearly true that most of them have been refugees since the end of the 1948 war but I don't see how the 1967 war is definitive at all.

Surely you're not implying it's all their fault - seems to me they've been on record against the creation of an Israeli state from the beginning - not that it has much relevance to solving today's problems. I don't think there's any right or wrong in this sucker.

In the end, if Israel were to have withdrawn from all the occupied territories and allowed the Palestinians to establish their own state after Oslo it's hard to see how things could have been any worse than they are today.

Furthermore, how can anyone claim this godforsaken mess is all the Palestinian's fault? Are they any more responsible than the international community, largely the British, who started this whole falderal after the First World War?

And Colin, what are you saying:

You haven't thought very hard. Without even thinking I can pull a dozen former British colonies out a hat that are all a lot larger than the British Iles. That statement is complete nonsense.

After your very inaccurate comment a few days back about Libby Davies, I wasn't going to respond to this, as you don't seem to check facts or appear to think for yourself... So you think the people who bulldozed down Rachel Corrie are moral??? The people who just decided that they were entitled by God to the Palestinian territory and just moved in & took over, not once but *twice* in their history? While I'm sure there are some very moral individual Israelis, as a group they have not greatly impressed me with their morality *or* sanity. Give me a break...

The Neocon anti-Arabists such as that Logjammed up the butt dude, have about the understanding of the Middle East as does a kindergarten class of the Theory of Relativity. They are simply too much faith based "true believers" of the US Empire cause. Ditto Colin, who wiggle and squirms and tries so hard, but just can't quite do it. He has bought the US dream, hook, line and sinker, at the expense of the fulfillment of his own country.

The Muslim/ Arab world was an advanced and cultured civilization when Europe was scarcely removed from dwelling in caves fer chris'sake. Certainly they were living in mud and thatch huts. The Arabs were familiar with the principles of mathmatics, writing and astronomy when we were still eating with our hands and most of us stunk for want of a good bath in our Celtic mud houses. (And I am proudly of Celtic stock on both sides of the family.) Indeed, if you've been watching the Knowledge Network lately, Britain never learned the principles of modern construction until the Romans conquered and taught them how to build akin to modern techniques, (which they learned much about through the Greeks and the Arabs), with indoor plumbing and toilets.

Indeed much of the founding principles of our knowledge of many things, from mathematics to manners, even table implements, we inherited from Arab civilization.

Which all began to collapse under the assaults of the Romans of course, continued with the Christian Crusades, and was administered the coup de grace by British, French, German and US Imperialism, all in rapid succession. (And who can forget the Dutch and Portuguese.) So there is nothing inherently "inferior" about the Arab peoples whatsoever-, but merely the misfortunes of historical circumstance, and corrupt leadership and governments imposed upon them by the various imperialisms. Who, by the by, were the same lackey "puppet" governments who carried out the pogroms against the Palestinian diaspora in their lands.

So your racist hostility to Arabs and the Muslims, and I'm an athiest, discredits your "opinions" and reduces them to irrelvance in serious discussion and dialouge.

The artificial creation of the Zionist State of Israel by Western Imperialism, out of the aftermath of the Holocaust on European soil, and designed to resolve at Palestinian expense, a European problem is at the very heart of what is driving all the current events in the Middle East, along with the Empire ambitions of the United States, who have a symbiotic use and relationship with the Zionist State. That is the simple part of the matter. The more complex is the finding of a solution that is both just to the Palestinian people, which has to include their right of return to their homeland, and does not inflict more harm than is absolutely necessary, or has already been historically inflicted upon the Jewish people, largely at the hands of Europe, and particularly their fascists-, the mentors of our own Neocons everywhere.

Conitinued nest post...

Continued from previous post...

US imperialism defeated in the Middle East, and taken out of the mix of events there, suddenly makes clear the failure too of the Zionist attempt to create a religious, Jewish dominant state in the land of the Palestinians. It is then, I think, along with numbers of progressive Israelis and Palestinians, that Zionist Israel is forced to get real and reasonable, and the greatest likelihood of a more reasonable and just approach begins to emerge that will hold out the greatest possibility for peace. So long as US Imperialism is there at Zionism's back, there is no need to be real, and back off from their religious Jewish State cause.

It's what I mean when I say that a defeat for the US Empire, in Iraq, Afghanistan and throughout the region is the key to peace, social progress and the national liberation of all peoples everywhere-, including ourselves in Canada. It is the main bulwark against the fulfillment of the national ambitions of all of us-, and the creation of a relatively more rational and peaceful world.

Regrettably, at the level of not really wishing harm to US citizens either, though they will certainly recover and not be harmed as much as they have done to others, by any means, it is necessary to Defeat Amerika.

By way of a small correction, if I remember correctly now, the beginning of the process of "undoing" early Arab civilization, begins actually with the Greeks and their ventures into North Africa, and especially Egypt.

The Brain,

I have read all of your comments brother, and much appreciate them. We might disagree on this or that point, but are by and large agreed, near as I can tell. :-)

I much appreciate your contributions here. Hopefully you will be here for some time. :-)

And ohmygawd, do not be intimidated from posting your thoughts here. We will always be gentle and understanding-, promise. ;-)Indeed, even if your comments do come up short a tad, and once in awhile, as happens to us all, it is necessary to ones intellectual development it seems to me, to just get out there and flap one's wings, and deal with one's occassional falls.

Besides, you always make sence to me. :-) And women's voices do need to make themselves heard, no bloody doubt. 8_D lol

Colin and Logjam,
I was happy to read your posts.

Alcibiades:

William Strata? Had to search him, you had me scratching my head on that one. Yes, the age of voicing your opinion online in the hopes of fine tuning the art of persuasion! As they say, if you can't beat 'em (for now), then see if they can't be influenced somewhat before you write 'em off. You know, a little diplomacy and all. Its tactical (and in some ways, a two way street). Resting an opportunity for success on other peoples failures isn't a sexy start, so keeping this in mind, its better to swallow a little pride and see how "democratic" our MP's really are (if at all) before we roast 'em for not listening.

Alcibiades

Fair enough, if you wish to compare land connected to their country, with the oversea colonies of the major empires. One could also argue that the Ottoman empire also gave up the land, but not freely. Israel could have declared the land it seized in 67 as Israeli territory, but after 1973 it chose to use it as a tool to negotiate peace with it’s neighbour. When you consider how important land is and it’s significance to the people there, you realize the importance of doing so.

Coyote
Actually most of the “technical and scientific achievements” of the Arab world actually were done by non-Arabs, the majority being Greek or Persian. In fact their great hero Saladin was actually a Kurd. What the Arab Caliphates did was to foster an atmosphere that encouraged these people to go there. This certainly was the “golden era” for the Arabs in the major centres. However it did not last and internal quarrel pulled it apart.

I will agree that they are not genetically inferior by any means and if given a decent education do quite well. What is holding the Arab world back is a reliance on tribalism, suppression of women rights and a education system that focuses on religious studies at the expense of the math’s and sciences. If you spend any time reading the Arab news on the internet, you will find this is a common theme in any self-criticism.

The concept of creating a Zionist state around Jerusalem in the 20th century predate the holocaust, but both it and the latent anti-Semitic feeling in Europe, certainly spurred the Jews into creating a state of their own. Since by this time pretty well all of the arable land on earth had been claimed it meant that someone was going to have to give up a chunk, the other option being kicked around was Uganda, although I can’t remember why, but I think it had a connection to the same events that led to the formation of the Ethiopian Jews.

Even though the Palestinian Authority had been talking about a “two-state” solution it was pretty clear that was not the end game that they were planning. If you look at pictures of Arafat in uniform even near the end of his reign, the picture of Palestine on his shoulder patch showed the entire region as their territory, with no room for the Israelis. Had the Arabs won in 1948, there would be no “two-state” solution, the Arab governments were more interested in finishing Hitler’s work than coming to an agreeable solution for both sides. You will notice that I use the term governments as many of the local Arab tribes were willing to settle for the two state solution.

The brain
Alcibiades got me looking a little more closely too: garthdotca by any other name.

It was actually Stratas, wasn't it? Nephew of Theresa, of course...Harley and all!
You certainly gave me a chuckle. Defintely operatic.

Roast away, lad. Mayhap there are things which could be done, in a Basi and Virk sort of way, if you know what I mean!

Let me know what you're thinking, if you're thinking in that direction - you may not actually be the only one.

G West:
It made me chuckle too, lol. Since you asked, and its definitely off topic, but one that I'm itching to talk about... so, with apologies on a post concerning taxation, I'm doing it anyways! :-)

I might be wrong, but Garth Turners website might be the most open MP forum out there, and it makes him look good, no doubt, because he handles it well. Garth is quite interactive with his blog. It's a complete contradiction to what the media is labelling as a Harper censored government with a hint that this wasn't Harpers idea to begin with.

Garth Turner is making the Cons look good because he's looking good. Heck, he's doing what we all want our MP's to do. Openly consult public opinion and then follow it! Its a rarity in politics today to see individuals like this come along. The big questions of course, is... how much influence does Garth Turner have in the Con party? Secondly, how much influence does his own constituents have over him? Time will tell. but one thing is for certain. He's looking for and getting public feedback. Garth is at this point, a politician percieved as actually doing his job.

My own interest is peaked at what he has to say, cause in truth, if I ran and won as an MP, I'd have a blog just like his, with public consultation open and accessible, and free to exchange ideas, as democratic as it can be, or at least, want to.

But Turners ideas, whether his own or formulated out of democratic participation, are radical when it comes to changes in taxation as well as MP exchanges with the public and his effectiveness in policy remains to be seen. Turners budget proposal to Flaherty is in many ways, PR genius and, well, just plain radical. Raising personal tax exemptions to 20 G's, 25 G's for married individuals and a flat tax rate at 19% - 21% with no shelters (its Maxime Bernier banking ideology all the way), getting rid of double taxation, introducing a new Retirment Savings plan, encouraging the electorate to familiarize and play with models of "you be the finance minister of Canada" with expenses itemized to familiarize Canadians with the macro role a finance minister plays... its like playing the computer game, "civilization" all over again.

The big question is... what do the numbers say in terms of whether a flat tax can be done without deficits... can it be done? Only the tax man knows for now... along with certain MP's of the Liberal party.

Taxation has always or should have always been about the burden of responsibility of each class from upper to middle, to lower. Who wants double taxation? Who wants tax burdens on the poor? Who wants a tax rate over 40%? We all know that Canadians are dreadfully overtaxed in ways, but we know why. Debt. Past failures of previous governments, both Lib and Con.

And then a guy like Turner comes out of the woodwork, a Con of all people... quite weird and surprizing considering what his message is and how he delivers it. But in the end, smoke and mirrors is all it might end up being, as the bottom line is littered not in words but numbers.

Flat taxes have to produce surplus's, replacing what we now have with greater revenue than what our current tax system currently generates in revenue. In terms of simplification, a flat tax personal tax is enviable. in terms of individual competition incentives, its a level playing field. In terms of getting rid of shelters, there is no better plan. From a socialist view, its equal enough for everyone, especially when personal exemptions start in high enough numbers.

But can it generate enough revenue? All this could be for now, is a complete Publicity stunt with only a handful of us truly knowing whether or not a flat tax system can actually be contemplated to generate the revenue needed to meet the current and future spending we have now and with this in mind, I'm still quite skeptical, G.

Coyote said:

I've heard this said elsewhere, at other times and it is illogical. By supporting Israel, the US is antagonizing the Arabs, the very same people who control the oil that the US wants. The US would be better off if Israel did not exist.

Like it or not, the Jews feel that this is their homeland. The Holocaust and the lack of action by the west to accept refugees ("None is too many...") previous to this event has made them determined to have their own country, one which ensures that the Jews are always the dominant group. Pressure by wealthy Jews in North America has enabled Israel to exist. Arab stupidity and arrogance for refusing to accept Palestine and Israel existing side by side has forced this issue to drag on for nearly 60 years.

The Palestinians, Iranians, et al would like to see the Holocaust completed and Israel gone from the world map. On the other hand, the Israeli government has not made it a policy to wipe out the Palestinians. Who do you think is being more reasonable?

The Brain
It really is interesting and I'd actually like to pursue it further with you. Hard to know exactly what he's up to - in some ways it seems almost satirical!

Sometimes difficult in the current context. If you go back to the Raid on the Leg story which has just dropped off the masthead and go through the comments there I think you'll quickly figure out how you can get in touch with me through an intermediary I've already contacted - this individual has my email too and I'm sure he'll forward your message (as well as be happy to hear from you directly).
Cheers.

"I'm looking forward to Mr. Mair's next article in which he asks a "typical" Israeli how an apartheid state armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, in violation of numerous U.N. resolutions, and actively engaged in ethnic cleansing, can hope to have western support. And yes, I'm talking about Israel." Percy.

"I've heard this said elsewhere, at other times and it is illogical. By supporting Israel, the US is antagonizing the Arabs..." Stan.

Indeed, US imperialism's inteventions in all the lands which they have done so, antagonize and incur hostility. It is one of the features of the game of Empire. But if you have the sheer military might of the US Empire, you don't really give a shitt-, or at least "think" you have to.

And regardless of the length of time that Israel has "forcibly" existed, through the theft of Palestinian lands and the use of terror, from the beginning, though they were ill prepared at the time of British Colonization to take on the onslaught of European Jewry, and hence retreated much into the surrounding Arab states, the Palestinians have been engaged in an ongoing war to drive the "Jewish Occupier" from their territories. So what is merely occurring, though Israel of course has an interest in portraying it otherwise, as stupidity say, is a war of resistance on the part of Palestinians to recover their homeland. The existance or failure of the Zionist State is yet to be decided, despite the length of the war, I would say.

That said, while the history of the last sixty years demonstrates that a "two state solution" will not stand, and has indeed already failed, I think it is time to examine the issue of a return to a "single state" and the Palestinian "right of return" to the land of their ancient birth; a secular state, that accepts the reality of a Palestinian Arab majority, which hopefully can then be convinced to accept the Arab minority. (Which Israel and the Zionist have always feared and of which there is much documentation out there on the internet.)

Like I say though, the current state of affairs is likely to continue for so long as US and other western imperial interests are there to interfere and encourage Zionist Jewish ambitions. The day after the US Empire power collapses in the region, Israel is suddenly in an even more threatening strategic position, and begins to be driven towards a more reasoned approach. (Though it must be said that Israel has learned well from Hitler, in their overall treatment of the Palestinians. Much of their territory that they cling to looks and feels much like the Warsaw Ghetto."

And that is not just a position of radical leftists such as myself, but also of many a progressive Israeli as well, it must be said. (Which some here may recall some further links to and post for us.) So there is hope, I think.

But first, of greatest likelihood, like I have alreasy said, US Imperialism must be defeated in the region. (Unless something totally unexpected occurs within Zionist Israel itself-, which is not totally outside the realm of all possibility.)

Though there is one other small possibility, that as the quaqmire of the Middle East deepens for The Empire, they will come to see Israel more as an encumberance and problem to be jettisoned. That is not outside the realm of all possibility either.

In the end hopefully, the Jews and the Palestinians will still find the means to be able to live in peace, together, like many another multi-cultural and multi-racial state. The initiative however, lies with the Jews in the achievement of that-, and thus far they have opted for quite another and more belligerent course.

Fuk off, Colin. Your anti-Arab racism is really too much to even engage. It is yourself who needs "re-educating".

Pretty good rehash of the positions.

I also believe that Palestine is the core of the war that the West is having against the Sunni Islamists. An independent, sovereign Palestine removes the biggest thorn. At least, for anyone not intent on seeing the end of the Jews altogether.

But while the West/USA has used "terror" in this War on Islamic Fundamentalism, that cannot be the sole criterion by which progressives judge their own countries.

The West has a high standard of living for its citizens, which is something that you and I might take for granted, but which the rest of the world does not.

Furthermore, only in the West is there enforcement of rights of minorities, women, homosexuals, and political dissidents. These freedoms do not and cannot exist under Sharia.

I hate a war profiteer and I loathe a hypocrite. But what I really cannot abide is theocracy. That's what this war is about and why our side has to win it, preferably with low casualties all around and in a humane way, but frankly any way is better than losing it.

Colin,

How much time do you spend listening to US news? And yet you have failed to note all the Christian religious claptrap and advertising that passes for "real news". For a secularist such as myself, it sometimes gets just too, too much. Even though we are better in this country, I think, it is not a whole lot better and getting worse.

What is really most startling in my observation is, the degree to which the US, Israel and the Arab Muslim world are all so much alike, as religious nutcases, caught in the fantasy-land web of it. Listen to Bush and his Messianic message about Axis of Evil and Armageddon, Gods mission for Amerika, and calls upon God and Christ etc. to "Guide America's Hand."

The average Amerikan doesn't sound a whole lot different in all their religious "superstitions" than does the average Arab or Jew. Too much religion and too little reason all, frankly.

It is an ongoing "human" problem, at which Muslims are no better nor worse than Christian Amerika. The same Messianic complexes dominate, far too much and too often.

Again, for secularists such as myself, we are always having to tip toe around it seems, everyone's religious sensitivites and loonery. It is the prevailing stage of development of nearly all peoples, caught between the religious past and its ancient "texts" and rote learned "revealed truths", and the realities of the "newer", evidence based scientific view of the world, the universe and history.

Hell, my own birth family are a bunch of religious nutters who think the human presence on the earth is no more than 6000 years, and that there was no Age of Dinosaurs. It is but a plot to fool "believers". It is still widespread, here in the great, enlightened and superior "Western Civilization".

What we have though is a great deal of material wealth, stolen or inveigled in one way or another very often, from many peoples, which has encouraged your kind of cynicism and haughty sence of superiority, not lost on Muslims or other peoples, that is likewise fairly widespread, and which gets mistaken for "rational intelligence"

by the way, what IS Rafe saying in his last paragraph? That the interviewee is using an alias, or that Rafe is making it all up?

Interviewee doesn't exist Yammer. You're way too clever to ask that question.

Rafe is using interview technique to illustrate his opinions and observations about the current situation in the light of his view of history. He's always been a history buff - he tells us about its fascinations all the time.

Given that the mainstream media isn't much concerned about telling the Palestinian side of this history, it wasn't a bad way to approach the situation.

Dialogue, even invented dialogue, is an effective way to get people to re-assess their thinking, and that's the reason for his last statement - an attempt to encourage the reader to look at the world from someone else's point of view. You knew that too though, didn't you?

Not that there's anything wrong with that! I am surprised it hasn't attracted more intemperate criticism.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

This site will help in understanding how the Palestinians remain the real victims in the ongoing war.

I bought into the whole "We've been persecuted, so we deserve this as our homeland" nonsense until one day I heard an ambassador to the UN from whatever Middle East country say just what the present head of Iran said, but in a more sorrowful way, i.e. how come the Europeans who did the persecuting get to give away someone elses land to settle their problem?

Thanks very much for this link, Nana. It is a most effective and useful site.

Coyote -- as a secular humanist myself I think I agree with you that the West's religiosity does not make us morally or intellectually superior.

However, the West has reached a semi-functional accomodation of its need to be governed intelligently and the sentimental attachments of believers. Basically, our governments are run without input from God, which is the only way to really do it.

Islamic countries aren't there yet; how to do it by your lights? I'm anticipating that you will say, "leave them alone"; if so, do you think that encourages or discourages secularization of Islamic society?

Alcibiades -- no, I really didn't get that Rafe was using that technique. I don't appreciate that he is presuming to tell us a Palestinian viewpoint. He can tell us what he thinks, of course, but it is a West Vancouver viewpoint and at best, presumptuous.

Had a brief stay in St. Pauls Hospital...
overnighter..my minder was a Saudi intern/student

The morphine made me talkative..I asked about Saudi Arabia..he was a little reluctant at first but eventually opened up a bit..He said the people
of Arabia really wanted an open and democratic society..separation of mosque and state..free of Sharia law and the tyranny of the House of Bush/ Saud.
The invasion of Iraq was looming at the time..we both hoped for the best..that it wouldn`t happen..I mentioned the "Jewish Lobby" in Washington and was surprised to hear him say that " The Jews have and are being used ..they`ve been had"..he had a lot of compassion for ordinary Israelis and figured they were being used by the Capitalist/Big Oil Cartels.
Many years ago working deep sea..delivering oil/rig machinery off Kuwait..going onboard a huge U.S./Kuwaiti Oil Barge for a visit..to check it out..
Americans were on one side the "Dinks" as they called them on the other..Being Canadian Chameleons of course we checked out the "Dink" side..the Yanks were visibly displeased..they were confused as to why we would go there.
The "Dink" side cafeteria had all these wonderful casseroles..dishes..salads..and we were invited to partake..one of the "Dinks" introduced himself as a "medical officer" and asked did we have Medicine on board our ship?
We said we didn`t and soon were being festooned with bottles of cough syrup. boxes of aspirin..whatever we needed..on leaving we stuck our heads into the American side cafeteria with the `burgers and fries..the looks told us we had better split..we did.

Coyote:
I can certainly relate to the religious dingnuts you speak of. I am no more pleased, being a half assed Christian myself (in practice, I'm still a holdout for believing I'm a little better off on paper in other places, lol) to have to put up with the spectacles of stupidity and hypocracy we see from religious Amerika today as well. Alot of these religious snake pits from all sides are toothless, you know, harmless, well meaning cookie cutters, albeit a bit and sometimes largely misguided like the nutters you point out that believe the world is only 6,000 years old cause they interpreted each of Gods days of creation as a thousand years.

There are three meanings for 'day' in Hebrew. 24hrs, 1000 years, and an "age".
(I go with each day being an "age" myself, suggestive of major changes to the environments with the day and night stuff. As a creator, I would be more inclined to play with the environments than I would life's initial designs, knowing the catyists of evolution... environmental changes. I believe my own research puts modern man somewhere's between 40 and 50 thousand years before evolving from an earlier version.)

But some of these snake pits have belly crawlers with fangs, like the war hawk holy crusading hypocrite that justifies the deaths of what must be in six figures now in Iraq, you know, for God's will, naturally. For freedom and democracy and womens rights, and human rights and life rights and all that, they justify murder and the destruction of the environments that provide life as any hypocritical group or faction would do so peace will come... as long as the new government installed privatizes nationalized assets and opens the markets to the world for sale, that is.

I personally cannot see how any nation, especially its leader can be so violent and harmful to the environments that support life, claim to do it for God and then actually get religious support for it from our harmless cookie cutters back home... but it happens daily.

And then, with anyone who knows why ownership is such an issue in terms of responsiblity and "domains" on any level, spiritual or otherwise, one could easily see the parellel distinctions between the abuses of individual ownership and what has been well defined in the synogogs as Satanic practice. The ideology of corporate will for profits "at everyone elses, mainly life's expense" is highly suggestive of a self centered, me first nature fitting of the catylist needed for blind failure and destruction.

In the book of Daniel and Revelations, there is made mention of a "Son of Perdition", a name without a soul that is the spawn of Satan, the son of Satan that does great damage to life and its environments. This son of Satan, as these books say, cannot be saved. When we look at the identities that are destroying this planet, its not Joe Smith down the street, its Haliburton and Monsanto, Dupont, Exxon and Chevrolet. None of these names ever had a heart to beat, and they aren't doing much that's pretty for the environment.

Those that own a stake in these lifeless identities have a degree of accountability, just as the false prophets who claim that our capitalist system will save us. For those who believe in Nirvana, Vahalla, and the pearly gates, they won't find Coca cola bill boards up there. Expect a different system than the chaotic, greed filled war mongering ways we adopt and swallow for "freedom" and "democracy" for our "friends".

A complex problem indeed, as I read these posts I am struck by how little I know of the history and cultures of this region. But hey I guess a grade seven education has its limits.Depite that I do well and am a zero emissions proprietor with opinions.

Concerning the defeat of Amerika it seems to me this is more heart than head talk and if it is proposed in a military framework is quite a terrible mistake and equal crime against humanity.

To me in simple terms, and they are all I have, is that oil, as this screed started as a premise is at the heart and head of this matter. See big business greed and corruption, ripping and wrapping itself around the neck of "for the people by the people", and converting it too "for the economy by the economy", legal dictionaries support this has di facto happened post NAFTA. (Thanx Brian your a real piece of work of the real evil empire).

In short untill we base our rule of law on the supremacy of creation not God or the economy we are destined to stay on our little wheel that small furry rodents find so appealing but not so much for the average bi-ped.

We've lost it people... democracy, just a bunch of little meat-puppets now and mega-corporations are the puppet master of our collective aspirations.This constructivist capitalist reality must be brought down
the hierarchial ladder by a return to normative order "for the people by the people".Let's start by making the lawyers and judges and holders of public ofice re-swear an Oath of allegiance to the concept of the foundation of Magna Carta by and for the people not the friggin economy.

Hey, G West:

Having trouble finding the link, dude. Lil' help. Might not be quick with a response, either. I'm leaving town for work for a while, so, I'll catch you later at some point.

Coyote

Your dream of a secular state where Jews and Palestinian live in peace, is a lovely fantasy, It would be nice, but it fails to take into account the human element.

As far as my so-called “anti-Arab” stance. I do have huge issues with the Arabs religious fundamentalist trying to create a Mono-Islamic culture based on the teachings of the Whabbis. I can see how this influence has altered the social landscape in places as far away as Malaysia. This mono-culture is going to be one of the biggest threats to human rights in this century and will take most of it to overcome. As far as Arab culture is concerned, they are stuck in a rut of their own making, there are people in the Arab countries trying to change this, but it is slow going. The only organized opposition to current governments there are the Islamist organizations, they are effective and brutal to any secular opposition. The Arab people have a lot to offer in the way of culture, but if the hard-core fundamentalist get into power, you can forget about it being offered for awhile.

No, I don’t pay much attention to domestic US news

Yes, I am pro-Israeli

No, I am not anti-Palestinian

Nana
Do you have any links or info of anykind concerning Nazi/Zionist collaboration regarding the settlement of Palestine during the holocaust..I remember reading some essays on this but..my memory isn`t serving me well lately..

The Brain
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/04/04/LegRaidCase/

You'll figure it out - I won't hold my breath - bonne chance!

Colin

Kind of like south of the border, eh!

http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

This is a starter for you bob the cat. Though a simple Google of "the Zionists and the Nazis" will bring up a plethora of stuff around this issue, likewise the agreements between the Zionist and Britain, who then occupied Palestine.

http://www.cliftonunitarian.com/toddstalks/palestiniantrailoftears.htm

At least read down to the Unchosen People section, though the entire article, under Unitarian Church authorship, is an excellent primer-, indeed more than that in depth actually.

This is a quote from the Unitarian Church article above, including an extract from the Balfour Agreement, in which Britain agree to support the European Zionist claim to a homeland in Palestine, which it then occupied. That was the start of events leading to where we are in the Middle East.

His Majesty’s government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by the Jews in any other country.

After this declaration, thousands of Jews began migrating to Palestine. This migration continued for many years as the Zionist congress actively recruited Jewish immigrants, and as many Jews found themselves in need of refuge, particularly during the Hitler years.

No, I am not anti-Palestinian

How "liberal" and balanced you are. LOL

You are a complete waste of time on this issue Colin. You are incapable of seeing your own contradictions, and less than subtle racism. And your knowledge of the Middle East and its history is almost child-like, relying for authority entirely on Euro-centre and Jewish propaganda sources

That should be "Euro-centric" of course. Which though ye will all have determined, I feel obliged to point out. Besides, Tyee requires a minimum number of words to post. :-)

Yammer
Why would you object?

He was open about what he'd done.

I suppose you'd have appreciated the disclaimer first, but then would readers have gone on to read the article?

Seems pretty legit to me. Whether one agrees with his assertions is the main topic for debate, I should have thought. No need to attack the messenger...there will be an opportunity to do that when and if it's required.

Don't you remember how William Safire did his little phone conversations in the NYTimes with Richard Nixon once or twice a year long after the president had died!

Legitimate journalistic device, I'd say.

Thanks Coyote..exactly what I was looking for..

This is good stuff if you haven`t already checked it out
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

G-west
Not even a close comparison.

Coyote
So I disagree with your view that Amerika and it’s side kick Israel should be destroyed and the land returned to whoever and that makes me childish? I find your view simplistic. There is no right answer to this, just the reality on the ground, two families with two very different cultures cannot live in the same house. The Israelis have not been perfect or completely fair, but I also know that the Palestinians and Arabs would have been far more brutal if they had won.

When you quote British policy of the early 20th century, don’t lose sight of the fact that within the government were two very strongly opposed groups, one being pro-Jewish the other Pro-Arab.

So if my source are tainted by being pro-Israel/Anti-Arab, doesn’t that mean that your sources are tainted because they are pro-Arab/anti-Israel?

So if I am racist against Arabs, are we talking Kurdish-Arabs, Sunni-Arabs, Northern Sudan Arabs or the whole host of the other Arab groups that exist? So confusing, not sure who I am supposed to hate?

My statements were to make my position clear, I want to see Israel survive and flourish. I would like to see life for the average Palestinian improve and their society do well. Their current strategy is failing, therefore they must change if they want to make a difference. You can go ahead and support the destruction of Israel and the right of return, but it will only happen with a lot of bloodshed on both sides, is that what you really want?

Picket against Israeli Apartheid and Racism

Sunday April 23, 2006, 5:30 pm
Four Seasons Hotel, Vancouver (Corner of Georgia and
Howe)
_______________________________________________

"The JNF is not required to act for the good of all of
Israel's citizens. It is forbidden to act to allocate
lands to all of the state's citizens... The JNF's
loyalty is not and cannot be for the benefit of the
Israeli public."
(Jewish National Fund statement to the Israeli High
Court as reported in Ha'aretz, Dec. 17, 2004)

Israel's Jewish National Fund (JNF) has been planting
the seeds of apartheid in the Middle East for the past
century, "redeeming the land" by dispossessing native
Palestinians and instituting exclusionist "Jews Only"
land laws. Ninety-three percent of the state's land is
now owned by the JNF and its affiliates. The
indigenous Palestinian population, even those that are
Israeli citizens, can't buy, lease, rent, use or
reside on JNF land.

Here in Vancouver, the "Jewish National Fund" is
honouring four previous mayors - Art Phillips, Mike
Harcourt, Philip Owen and Larry Campbell. The current
Mayor Sam Sullivan will also present "greetings on
behalf of the City of Vancouver". The declared purpose
of this 2006 NEGEV DINNER is "to further the greening
of the Negev", a euphemism for guaranteeing the
"Jewish majority" in the Negev and stopping the
Palestinians from becoming a majority in any part of
their homeland.

"The cause of the Bedouins in the Negev is an
existential one. Over the years they are pushed out of
their lands on which they subsist with their herds.
Today, Sunday April 16, (2006) the Israeli authorities
destroyed 400 dunams of Bedouin crops - no this is not
the West Bank, but Israel proper. By chance we heard
about it, and we want to let you know - without having
an idea what you could do about it, other than helping
to spread the message." (Israeli Peace Bloc, Gush
Shalom http://www.gush-shalom.org/)

Here are some of the Corporate Sponsors for this
event: Phillips, Hager & North, HSBC, Instafund,
Mercedes-Benz and The University of British Columbia

Make your voice heard against the Mayors of Vancouver
who are lending their support to these JNF and Israeli
policies that include ethnic cleansing and war crimes
against the Palestinian people. And boycott all those
who are complicit in these atrocities, especially the
above sponsors of the JNF dinner.

Organized by Palestine Community Centre
palestinecommunitycentre.com

Thanx, G. I'll find you.

Were I living in Vancouver, bob the cat, I would be there. You know it. :-) Large or small, it is important that the voices for a progressive national foreign policy for this country begin to be heard, that is not dictated by the US Empire, Israel, or our own Neocon "Bend the Knee to Washington" US Empire Loyalists.

Perhaps not here yet, but around the world, the tide is turning against the US/Israeli Zionist "Axis of Evil", to quote an infamous personage. :-)

I think I might try and make it..a little scary...don`t run that fast anymore..(never did actually ..but really don`t move quick now)

destroying Bedouin Crops? C`monnnn

Thanks bob the cat. Another outstanding progressive Jewish voice. It is always a breate of fresh air for me, to hear these voices. And there are a growing number of anti-Zionist Jews emerging out there, as both US Empire and Zionist Israel policy becomes increasingly discredited, and seen for the "closet" fascism it really is.

This cite will certainly be in my favourites as a resource site on this issue. And by the by, though it is always possible to be wrong, "I think" we are creaming these Neocons on this issue. They are ill prepared or equipped to engage this issue, without even more blatantly exposing their "kiss US ass" bias.

Further evidence that a traitor to one's own nation and land is a traitor to everyone elses as well. They are completely swept up and smitten by their "wannabe" Empire love object.

They are pathetic.

A problem, for sure. 8-D lol But I can still run pretty good, and give a fair account of myself. (I can hear the wifes saying, "You think."

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread?

But then, I have always enjoyed a good rumble with authority. Sighhhhh!

If it comes to a rumble..I`ll handle Sullivan..
..twirl him around in his chair with his very own Olympic flag

Yeah the trollsters have been laying low on this one..maybe their still doing the "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses routine?" on one of the other threads.

And there are a growing number of anti-Zionist Jews emerging out there

And what incredible courage they have..gush shalom..Finkelstein..Chomsky..Brenner..Levy

they`ve stood small in number against some very powerful and ruthless people and institutions ...speaking Truth to Power.

I tried explaining this whole issue to my eight year-old daughter. After the long talk, with her eyes wide open, she simply asked why people would do these things to each other. "Are they crazy?" she asked.

"it's a bit complicated, but ... yes ... I guess they are," I replied.

Sadly, I don't believe that it is our generation that can solve this. Anything we do that gets Jewish and Palestinian kids together, playing and laughing, is about all we can do in making a lasting peace.

One thing is for certain; the more the US gets involved the longer and more complicted the problem will get.

Coyote:

It’s disappointing to see how your hatred of “Amerika” and the Zionists has made you blind to reality.

What makes you think that the Jews don't belong in the Middle East?

Here is a little background from Wikipedia:

"The earliest known mention of the name 'Israel', probably referring to a group of people rather than to a place, is the Egyptian Merneptah Stele dated to about 1210 BCE. [2] For over 3,000 years, Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land. The Land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. [3] Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.
Under Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule, Jewish presence in the province dwindled due to mass expulsions. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire resulted in the large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land. The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517."

So tell me again why don’t the Jews have the right to return to the land of their ancient birth? For 2000 years they were reviled and persecuted because they had no nation of their own.

Now that they have their own nation, do you think that they should willingly give it up to let the Arab majority rule them? The Arabs can’t even get along with each other (Shite vs.Sunni, etc.).

More background from Wikipedia:

“The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area having roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.
Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Several Arab attacks on Jewish civilians soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.”

We all know what happened afterwards: the Arabs repeatedly tried to attack the Israelis, and repeatedly lost.

And what did the conquering Israelis do with the Arabs? You seem to have a theory:

It’s disgraceful that you would compare anyone with Hitler, but it is especially so when you compare the Jews to him. Are you implying that the Israelis are systematically exterminating the Palestinians? Ironically, we frequently hear the Arabs applauding the Nazis and calling for the extermination of Israelis.

(Con't)

You and some of the other posters seem to think that you know the “truth” about the Israelis...much like Hitler and Goebbels knew the “truth” about the Jews. The TRUTH is that Israel is here to stay; they have the best trained military in the world and they have nuclear weopons. They know that when it comes to the crunch, they cannot rely on anyone else to protect them, and they will do what it takes to survive. The TRUTH is that no other people on earth suffered the same degree of persecution for so many years. The TRUTH is that until the Arabs stop calling for the extermination of Israel and accept the Israeli presence in the Middle East, there will be no peace.

Stan
Truth is a multifaceted thing - nobody has a monopoly. I don't think it's fair to present the material you have without some acknowledgment of the role of the Irgun too. Terrorism has been practiced by both sides in the unholy history of the 'Holy Land'. It certainly wasn't the Palestinians who started bombing buildings in Jerusalem: If you don't know about the attack on the King David Hotel then you need to go back and do some more research. Moreover, Palestinians weren't the target either. To ignore the role of Israeli terrorism in the years before 1947 is not legitimate either.

This mess is so conflicted and problematic that the only way it's ever going to be settled is for ordinary Palestinians and ordinary Israelis to take the matter out of the hands of the religious extremists on both sides. It's not just the Muslims that have a problem with this and there are some religious bodies in Israel who are as intransigent and racist in their attitudes toward Palestinians and a state for Palestine as any member of Hamas. The TRUTH is, unfortunately, much more complex than you, and Wikipedia, know.
Shalom

We can all finger point and raise our voices concerning who got the worst of being human or the worst of human nature, the Jews, Africans, women, the poor, the disadvantaged and on and on, but its not going to bring out much for solutions.

Our human paradigm is formed by the environments we live in. Lynn has offered the ideology that works best, in my opinion. Google earth and watch the borders disappear. Try Jupiters view. The view of the universe. the words of Einstein one more time, from Lynn:

The following, in 2 sections on account of its length, is from today's New York Times, by Tony Judt:

IN its March 23rd issue the London Review of Books, a respected British journal, published an essay titled "The Israel Lobby." The authors are two distinguished American academics (Stephen Walt of Harvard and John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago) who posted a longer (83-page) version of their text on the Web site of Harvard's Kennedy School.

As they must have anticipated, the essay has run into a firestorm of vituperation and refutation. Critics have charged that their scholarship is shoddy and that their claims are, in the words of the columnist Christopher Hitchens, "slightly but unmistakably smelly." The smell in question, of course, is that of anti-Semitism.

This somewhat hysterical response is regrettable. In spite of its provocative title, the essay draws on a wide variety of standard sources and is mostly uncontentious. But it makes two distinct and important claims. The first is that uncritical support for Israel across the decades has not served America's best interests. This is an assertion that can be debated on its merits. The authors' second claim is more controversial: American foreign policy choices, they write, have for years been distorted by one domestic pressure group, the "Israel Lobby."

Some would prefer, when explaining American actions overseas, to point a finger at the domestic "energy lobby." Others might blame the influence of Wilsonian idealism, or imperial practices left over from the cold war. But that a powerful Israel lobby exists could hardly be denied by anyone who knows how Washington works. Its core is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, its penumbra a variety of national Jewish organizations.

Does the Israel Lobby affect our foreign policy choices? Of course — that is one of its goals. And it has been rather successful: Israel is the largest recipient of American foreign aid and American responses to Israeli behavior have been overwhelmingly uncritical or supportive.

But does pressure to support Israel distort American decisions? That's a matter of judgment. Prominent Israeli leaders and their American supporters pressed very hard for the invasion of Iraq; but the United States would probably be in Iraq today even if there had been no Israel lobby. Is Israel, in Mearsheimer/Walt's words, "a liability in the war on terror and the broader effort to deal with rogue states?" I think it is; but that too is an issue for legitimate debate.

The essay and the issues it raises for American foreign policy have been prominently dissected and discussed overseas. In America, however, it's been another story: virtual silence in the mainstream media. Why? There are several plausible explanations. One is that a relatively obscure academic paper is of little concern to general-interest readers. Another is that claims about disproportionate Jewish public influence are hardly original — and debate over them inevitably attracts interest from the political extremes. And then there is the view that Washington is anyway awash in "lobbies" of this sort, pressuring policymakers and distorting their choices.

and here's part 2, it's actually going to take 3 posts, bear with me:

and here, finally, is the conclusion:

Looking back, we shall see the Iraq war and its catastrophic consequences as not the beginning of a new democratic age in the Middle East but rather as the end of an era that began in the wake of the 1967 war, a period during which American alignment with Israel was shaped by two imperatives: cold-war strategic calculations and a new-found domestic sensitivity to the memory of the Holocaust and the debt owed to its victims and survivors.

For the terms of strategic debate are shifting. East Asia grows daily in importance. Meanwhile our clumsy failure to re-cast the Middle East — and its enduring implications for our standing there — has come into sharp focus. American influence in that part of the world now rests almost exclusively on our power to make war: which means in the end that it is no influence at all. Above all, perhaps, the Holocaust is passing beyond living memory. In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that an Israeli soldier's great-grandmother died in Treblinka will not excuse his own misbehavior.

Thus it will not be self-evident to future generations of Americans why the imperial might and international reputation of the United States are so closely aligned with one small, controversial Mediterranean client state. It is already not at all self-evident to Europeans, Latin Americans, Africans or Asians. Why, they ask, has America chosen to lose touch with the rest of the international community on this issue? Americans may not like the implications of this question. But it is pressing. It bears directly on our international standing and influence; and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. We cannot ignore it.

Tony Judt is the director of the Remarque Institute at New York University and the author of "Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945."

G West:

Of course, the details are much more complex than I (or almost anyone else) could possibly know. But the TRUTH is quite simple: Israel exists and the Arabs have to accept that, otherwise there will be no peace.

Alcibiades

Amen to Tony Judt's comments....

Percy, of all the responders here you are the only one who has touched on the prime problem.

One group of people, united in their religious beliefs, is using their power to crush others.

This, of course, is being played out under a charade called democracy, which in too many minds equates to 'we can do whatever we want as long as we control the votes.'

When the prime right to citizenship is based on your religious or ethnic background, then it's a sham and a very ugly and deadly one as well.

What makes me even more upset about all this is it seems not one Canadian MP will stand up and speak out against the ugly turn of events which now sees Canada officially supporting Israel's continued encroachment onto Palestinian lands and it's official state terrorism against innocent civilians.

Rafe was correct in his wording. Canada, having shed any neutrality, is now part of the problem.

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/zionamer.htm

"Americans of Jewish faith cannot visualize the extent to which their rabbis and secular leadership, operating through Organized Jewry, have totally deceived them into confusing humanitarianism with nation-building, religion and nationalism. A home could have been found in 1947 for the 285,000 survivors of Hitler's concentration camps without ever establishing a state; just as today security for the Jews of Israel can be obtained without the continued expansionism wrought by the West Bank settlements policy or the ruthless repression of the rights of the Palestinian people.

But only an ever-larger state will appease the hungry ambitions of Zionist leaders. Privately they have incessantly declared that they have no interest in refugees, only in creating a sovereign state. In their atheism and agnosticism, they have manifested even less concern for Judaism, the religious faith. Adroitly exploiting Nazi genocide, their propaganda has used the Holocaust to extract a blank check from Zionist and non-Zionist co-religionists which enabled them in 1948 to bet the future of American Judaism on the roulette of power politics.

Speaking unqualifiedly in the name of all Jews, Zionist acumen made certain that the politicians remained hypnotized more than ever by the "Jewish vote." All they had to do was to remind both political parties that their eloquent support of Israel was a prerequisite for their conquest of pivotal election states.

When so much is at stake in the Middle East, inevitably the question must arise: How has the Zionist will been imposed on the American people? Far from all Jews believed in the concept of the Jewish state, and the Jews themselves constituted but a very small minority of the American population, less than three percent. Is it possible that Americans have been so apathetic that six million can manipulate 230 million?

But there are many compelling reasons why population figures are of little relevance to the Zionist success story. Mahatma Gandhi once remarked: "Numbers are not critical to any struggle. Strength and purpose are." This strength, matched by wealth and position, can be summed up in one word: power. The Zionists have been able to muster fantastic muscle at the right moment and at the right place, or instill the fear that it might be used."

http://www.spinwatch.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=478

Excerpt:

"For the sake of informed and honest debate it should be said that Zionism has no roots in Palestine. Zionism’s roots are in Eastern Europe, in what for a thousand years was the Russian empire of the Tsars. And Zionism’s actual birthplace, the venue in 1897 for its first dishonest mission statement, was a gambling casino (how appropriate) in Switzerland.

Judaism does, of course, have its roots in Palestine. But let’s pause for a moment to take account of what the rabbis who speak for those described as “true” and sometimes “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews say about this on the basis of what is set down in Judaism’s holy book, the Torah, and a vast code of Oral Teaching handed down through the generations… Yes, these rabbis say, God did promise Abraham land, but under certain conditions. These conditions were basically that the Hebrews had to maintain the highest moral, ethical and religious standards, which included treating those already on the land promised with justice and equality. And it was because the Hebrews did not do so that God punished them with exile.

Although most Jews today appear to be unaware of it, the fact is that the return of Jews to the land of biblical Israel by the efforts of man was PROSCRIBED by Judaism. Because the exile was decreed by Almighty God as a punishment, the return had to await the coming of the Messiah. Return by the efforts of men would constitute “a rebellion against the wishes of the Almighty.” [1]

In other words, and as “true” and/or “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews put it: “The Jewish religion absolutely forbids Zionism both on grounds of religious belief and grounds of Jewish religious values of humanitarianism.” [1]

In other words, and again as “true” and/or “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews put it: “Judaism and Zionism are total opposites, incompatible and diametrically opposed.” [1]

I think it can be said without fear of contradiction that but for the obscenity of the Nazi holocaust, Zionism would not have generated enough support and momentum to create a state. It is a fact that prior to the holocaust, most of the best Jewish minds of the time were opposed to Zionism’s colonial enterprise. Why? They believed it to be morally wrong and, given the opposition of the entire Arab and Moslem world, they feared that it would lead to unending conflict. They also feared that the creation in the Arab heartland of a Zionist state for some Jews (a minority) would not be in the best interests of those (the majority) who preferred to live, as they still do, as integrated citizens in the many lands of the mainly Gentile world."

Stan,
With all respect, that's more or less what I wrote:

isn't it?

I thought you started out by writing that a certain kind of historical 'truth' was somehow more relevant than other sorts. Which was why I wrote what I did. There is a difference between supporting the legitimate desires of Jewish people to have a homeland of their own and supporting much of what has gone on in the area in the 'name' of that ideal since 1948. I could also point out several other cases since Menachem Begin and his colleagues brought terrorism to Jerusalem; not least of which was the activities of the IDF and the Lebanese phalange under the supervision of Ariel Sharon (which has since been duly condemned by an Israeli investigation).

The point that the Israeli people and the Palestinian people could have found a way to begin to move toward some kind of reconciliation long before now hardly needs to be made again.

My main point in this debate is that the United States, behaving as it does, is not helping the situation. Israel's survival, possessing as it does both nuclear weapons and a highly trained and efficient armed forces, is no longer the question. Olmert needs to step out from behind America's skirts and engage with his neighbours in a meaningful way; Hamas needs to do more than it has to counter the atmosphere of hate and provide a secure cease-fire.

That such fundamental common sense has not, prior to now, been enough to start some kind of reconciliation is a black mark in both their copy-books. That the United States has not done more to adapt a more even-handed approach to the problem is even less understandable, given the kinds of platitudes its leader spouts at every public opportunity.

Shalom.

Nana, interesting material, but like much of the argument or debate over Israel, it too is simply more fabricated history sliced, diced and infused with yet more god nonsense.

I quite frankly don't give a shit what some religious figure thinks "god" did or didn't do two thousands, four thousand or 10,000 years ago.

It is pure fantasy that serves to prop up a belief that there is a right to defend a so-called homeland by any means available.

I find it amazing that adults can continue basing their entire world view on self-centred dogma served up as historic fact.

Nana

After witnessing millions of their fellow Jews being exterminated in the camps and persecuted for centuries, do you really think they would accept anything less than a state for themselves?

A couple of historical pieces

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:
The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.
The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:
Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.
G-west is correct that the truth is the first causality and for anyone digging up the “truth” in this case is presented with a huge amount of information that has been assembled to present one side or the other. Both sides have been guilty of atrocities and of manipulating the truth.

A couple of differences

Menachin Begin made the transition from Terrorist to political leader and tried to help Arafat make the same leap, Arafat could never bring himself to leave behind the terrorist side of himself and tried to play both ends, without success.

There are a good number of Israeli’s that disagree with their government and are outspoken about it. At the worst they are imprisoned if they are soldiers or break a particular law. But if a Palestinian was foolhardly enough to voice an objection against the various terrorist groups or the PA, they would likely be killed by a mob or jailed and executed as a “traitor”. That is why you never hear from the “moderates” in Palestine.

Regarding the summer camps for Israeli and Palestinian kids. They are happening and it is a good idea to build that kind of experience to prevent the hatred from being passed down the line.

Actually there was a story in the Arab press about 6 months ago, where the local Arabs had kicked out the “International youth observers” and asked that a team of Ultra-Orthodox Jews take over the observer role, as the religious Jews were considered more respectful of the Arabs conservative values than the young European kids.

Nothing is ever simple there, just ask a Druze.

Regarding the "Arabization" of Islam, here is a chunk of an article from the Wall Street Journal.

No longer. A handful of senior citizens in Kelantan, the heartland of Malay culture, are the last to practice traditional theater.

"What you have is the gradual emergence of a new generation of Malaysian Muslims who will be completely cut off from their past," says Farish Ahmad Noor, a Malaysian political scientist at the Center for Modern Oriental Studies in Berlin. "They're losing their cultural compass."

Many Southeast Asian Muslims now navigate by guideposts from the Arab world. Young men in Indonesia are starting to wear turbans and grow beards. In Malaysia, Malays have adopted the Arab word for prayer, salat, to replace the Malay word, sembahyang, which literally means "offer homage to the primal ancestor."

Kelantan, a leafy state of shimmering rice paddies and thick jungle, is Malaysia's front line in the clash between Islam and local Malay culture. Many Malay traditions, like the Mak Yong, originated here.

Kelantan is also Parti Islam's stronghold. When the party won the state in 1990, its ultraconservative state leader, Nik Aziz Nik Mat, ordered grocery stores to provide separate lines for men and women, and told girls they could no longer take part in Quran reading competitions that are popular in schools. He banned Mak Yong and Wayang Kulit.

"We need to purify our local theater from those alien elements," says Mr. Aziz, a somber-looking man in a flowing white robe who has a thin gray beard on the point of his chin. Mak Yong and Islam co-existed peacefully for so long only because Malay Muslims didn't know any better, he says.

That view baffles Mrs. Zakaria, the fifth generation in her family to dance the Mak Yong. When she was 12, her grandmother built a small practice stage next to the rice paddy behind her house and gave her lessons every day. Later, she joined a troupe and toured the state full-time. "Our traditions are very old. Why is it wrong now?" she asks.

I think below is more to the point of the topic.

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20060416&hn=32090

04.16.2006 Sunday - ISTANBUL 11:46

Israel Fires 400 Rockets on Gaza in 2 Days
By Anadolu News Agency (aa), Jerusalem
Published: Sunday, April 16, 2006
zaman.com

Gaza Strip has been under heavy rocket attacks from Israel since Friday, said a spokesman for the Israeli military.

Israel responded to an attack of Qassam -type missiles by throwing about 2,000 rockets in the last couple of weeks, a statement from the Israeli military spokesman read. The statement also gave news of the Israeli military firing a total of 12 missiles, 10 of which blew off in Palestinian soil.

The cause for such a sharp escalation in attacks is to force Palestinian militia to move faster around the region, which lessens the effect of rocket attacks, according to a statement from the military radio station.

In another development here, the Israeli military arrested nine Palestinians who had been wanted in the Nablus province of West Bank.

[10:31:00]

Colin, you seem to have real difficulty dealing with issues at hand.

While I certainly wouldn't run to the whitewash called the New York Times for the real version of anything, I do suspect your portrayal of changing life in Malaysia could as easily been writting about changing times in the good ol' US of A.

Generations of New Orleans residency and the culture that went with it meant little to the capitalists who decided to write off that Gulf City when Katrina hit.

Why? Because some people in Washington who think god created capitalism, determined that it was better to save money than people.

First Nations peoples in Canada have suffered for centuries at the hands of politician/thieves and their friends and had their culture banned, broken and later ridiculed as they try to recover portions of it.

Was Hamas responsible for either of the above? How about Bin Ladin?

No, it was primarily wealthy American and Canadian fat cat capitalists who benefitted.

Now this has absolutely nothing to do with Palestine or Israel, the subject of this article, but then your borrowing of material from the very font of yellow journalism didn't either.

interesting article,

But to get the view point of real Palestinians and real Israelis, I invite you all to come to our play titled "Palestine, Israel and Me: a Power Play". Where a group of Palestinians, Israelis and Canadians create a play insipred by their real lives to discribe how the conflict in the middle east effects our lives right here in Vancouver

Palestine Israel and Me: A Power Play
May 5th and 7th at 7:30 pm
Unitarian Church of Vancouver, 49th and Oak

Admission by donation

more details on ihath.com

Allan
Hamas is intent on promoting their own form of Islamic fundamentalism and any Secular Palestinian or non-Muslim group should beware.

I actually took the post from other forum, which had been posted by an Indian National. Such an article is unlikely to appear in mainstream Malaysian news as it would be considered as “stirring religious dissent” The government there plays a fine game between satisfying the Islamist without pissing off the Chinese or Indian Malays. Malaysia is an excellent place to study interaction between the current state of global Islam and non-Muslim cultures on a daily basis.

Anyways since when does any discussion on the Tyee remain on topic throughout?

A column like this takes much courage to print in these times. Is the problem intractable? It certainly appears so. However, beware the trap of listening to one side only: instransigent Isrealies or instransigent Arabs. Who should we look to for anwers? Its easy: the Isreali/Arab Peace movement. Like countries everywhere, most people in the Middle East do NOT want war. They are moderates. They would have accepted a peace a long time ago. I refer you to Gush Shalom and Peace Now. Go to their websites.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

They have been begging for peace for years. Yet our highly selective media refuses to give them any air time. War continues in the Middle East for the same reasons war is being waged by the US. But it is a war NOT supported by most of its citizens.

From the London Review of Books:
Ilan Pappe on the Israeli election and the ‘demographic problem’
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n08/papp01_.html

If Rafe Mair were an elected member of the U.S. government......

And, if he simply conducted this interview, his political donation (re-election) funds would drastically shrink and he would be in serious jeopardy of losing the next election.

Why?

Because of the power of AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Commission).

Maybe this would happen in Canada too!