So, the voter's wishes should have been respected (and Emerson ought not to have walked the floor) but 5 million voters are fools or cynics for voting Conservative. I guess democracy would be a lot better if everybody would just agree with Crawford Kilian.

I understand mr emerson will be interviewed on CBC radio tomorrow - lets hope he gets a WARM reception.

IAMC - it was a terrible decision - the fact YOU think it wasn't is just further evidence of the fact.

Naw, I think they'd be a lot better off if they agreed with IAMC. Something there about the company you keep. Remember the story?

And IAMC, you 'wish' it was just the NDP. There are a lot of conservatives who're far from happy with this sucker too.

Who would you have for the MP for Vancouver Kingsway instead? Emerson is eminently qualified. Let's review some of the other choices that voters have been presented with:

Ian Waddell? A millionaire socialist who lives in Point Grey and who, during one election, rented an apartment in the riding so that he could claim the pretense of living there?

Kanman Wong? A community volunteer but one with little support in the party itself -- he's more of a joke than anything else.

Jesse Johal? Mr. Emerson's last opponent and a boy who lives with his mother and whose disrespect for the riding and it's people is well documented by a simple Google search of the coverage of that election.

Sophia Leung, consistently voted worst parliamentarian and a woman so neglectful of her riding that few even knew who she was.

Vancouver Kingsway is the neglected heart of this city -- it's a riding, and a neighbourhood that has been in decline and now suffers from the hope of gentrification as its salvation. Gentrification will not be the salvation of Vancouver Kingsway.

David Emerson is, without a doubt, the best candidate to have run in the riding for as long as anyone can remember. His political affiliation will affect his role in the community less than most think.

Be happy that this community has, at last, a representative with some qualifications.

What qualifications? He's nothing but a business hack and opportunist, a retread political appointee Campbell clone from Calgary.

Do the neglected people of Vancouver Kingsway, as 'you' label them - pretty respectful that - not have the democratic right to chose who they reject as their representative - to wit - a conservative and a turncoat at that?

Emerson represents his 'class' very well. But he actually hasn't got much class in my opinion. He would have had to show some real class to resign and stand for election. If he, and you, are so convinced of his value to the people he says he
'cares' about why doesn't he submit himself to their judgment and let the chips fall where they may?

That's clearly what the people want - but of course their opinion doesn't matter - the elites know better. Democracy is more than just a word.

darcy.mcgee
So Emerson isn't a millionaire stock option opportunist? Just exactly what are his qualifications?
He certainly isn't much of a communicator if his performance since February 6 is any indication.
I seem to think most of his fans don't live in Vancouver Kingsway either.

There is much to say on the "Emerson problem' - first of which, it surely was no problem for Emerson to switch parties as essentially the Liberals and Conservatives are the 'same', one in the left-hip pocket of Capital, the other in the right-hip pocket, both joined at the hip, walking together with Capital to make us one big happy continent, freely trading under FTA, NAFTA, FTAA, etc. As the author of the above article elucidates by reference to the word "nomenklatura" - we are a country run by elites, funded by Capital, embraced by a colonial constitution. When I compare the French and the solidarity between themselves in putting one million plus people in the streets, organizing a general strike, facing off with government which ultimately was forced to retract a most discriminatory law against youth-labor - to us, Canadians - well there is no comparison. - ashamedly we are in political kindergarten. Here is the problem that few speak about: _ -Where have been the persistent voices of the BC Fed, the Vancouver & District Labor Council, the New West Labor Council, the Council of Canadians, the various student unions at UBC, SFU, Langara, etc. the BC Federation of Students, the Canadian Federation of Students, the BCGEU, Canadian Federation of Labor - on this matter of the "Emerson problem'?????. The problem is that we, as citizens, have not been able to organize ourselves, have not been able to create enough solidarity & courage - on this issue, to resolutely take a stand - in the kind of numbers in the streets as they did in France- and say, NO, NOT TILL HELL FREEZES OVER SHOULD MR. EMERSON BE ALLOWED TO SIT AS AN MP, and if that takes a general strike - so be it. But we are not the same as the 'citizens' in France, neither are our labor 'leaders' - in any way similar to the Labor & Student LEADERS in France -there citizens understand acutely that a failure to stand up for their rights in solidarity - means what little rights they have would be taken away- not enough of us truly understand that in Canada. The failure to find even one person who voted Liberal in Vancouver-Kingsway willing to come forward so that a Petition to a court of competent jurisdiction could be made is indeed a 'problem' - worthy of contemplation. Why is it that the Liberal Party itself has not taken this 'matter' to court is another problem.
Is it not a problem that citizens, numbering over 20,000 could easily sign a recall petition, could attend a few public meetings to rightly express their anger & disgust, could march in the streets, could post "De-Elect Emerson" campaign banners, could organize an airplane to fly over Ottawa saying "Emerson Call Home",....but somehow, couldn't see that it was vitally important to organize themselves sufficiently well to get this matter into the courts so that a precedent would not be further established, so that democracy would not be further eroded, so that we could at least see, as citizens, which side the courts would take, citizens or parliamentarians.

....Surely, I am not the only one who foresaw two months ago- (apologies to Aviencia who did not want to believe me my forecast) that the Canadian incapacity for putting real 'heat' in the streets implied that 'heat in the streets' of merely a few hundreds- would be ineffectual to cause Emerson to resign. So now, the problem is: Emerson sits in Parliament as an MP, none of the 3 opposition parites will co-operate to introduce a motion denying him a right to sit in Parliament as a Conservative MP, the chances of an NDP bill on 'floor crossings' passing is less then a 'snowball existing in hell", (and why Jack L. even bothered us with that proposal when he knows full well it hasn't any hope) , the 'heat' in the streets- a.k.a. the "De-Elect Emerson Campaign" is fading fast - and the media has lost, is losing interest fast. Coupled to those historical facts - - there still is no concerted, gritty, determined effort by citizens to get this 'matter' into the courts --and the result of that failure - is that future MP's will look upon Emerson as a trail-blazer, as a model for them to emulate - and Capital will be emboldened further by this victory- for Emerson is their representative - and citizen democratic rights, and 'democracy itself' - is gasping for oxygen in this continentalist, Capitalistic climate. What I have learned personally, is that it is not worth bothering to vote, or getting involved with a political party, and this which we call "liberal representative democracy' in Canada is but a corrupt charade -allied with Capital and Labor - intent on delivering this nation, its ample natural resources of oil, gas, water, to the continentalist dream, a united North America, under one flag, under one constitution, one currency, with no hope in hell for a sovereign independent Canada. So as far as I am concerned, the Emerson matter is 'no problem' at all - it merely signals the end of pretence, the end of illusion of democracy in Canada. It signals a time to wake-up. --perhaps it signals an end to party politics - and the subsidization of political parties by the State.

Simple answer to the question about why no Liberals have come forward Peter. They are as compromised as the Conservatives on the issue and they know it. Any recognizable Liberal bringing a Petition would be laughable. The only petition which would have much chance of being credible is a class action, in my opinion, and that may still happen.

In some ways though, Emerson's presence in Parliament is a useful reminder of how compromised this government is. In the end, the fact that he doesn't possess the character to understand why he should resign and run as a Conservative, along with the object lesson that the Prime Minister would, so early in the day, reject the principles he supposedly stood for in such a cavalier fashion may be much more useful lessons for the future.

Lets start by asking: How effective an MP can he be if community organizations can't even get meetings with him?

Why does Emerson have time for the Indonesian Trade Minister, but not for Vancouver-Kingsway constituents and organizations?

mwatkins
You know the answer to that. He doesn't give a tinker's damn for the people in his constituency. He's serving his masters exactly the way he did in the last parliament and when he was in Victoria and when he rose so spectacularly up the corporate ladder. No surprise about that.

Peter Dimitrov is actually right you know, even though the scales may have fallen from the voters eyes, they're still incapable of doing what's absolutely necessary for all the people in this country whose interests have never been served by any establishment party.
Working together, the people can make a difference - but they haven't quite got the spark to actually follow through yet.

Emerson, of all people, knows precisely what’s necessary to get ahead – the rest of us are confused.

Peter - a bunch of rank amateur citizens managed to pull off the Walk for Democracy; would it have been useful to see 20,000 out there instead of 600 or 800? Sure. Am I discouraged? Not at all.

One step at a time. You sound like the battle is over; in my view, yesterday was just one more step along the way.

Instead of spending time in despair, organize.

We are far from through with this fight. Before we are done, Emerson's name will conjure laughter across the country... hardly a fitting legacy for someone so intent on leaving one.

There are many ways to fight this battle - you've got a legal background so naturally you are interested in that avenue... if you feel strongly that a legal case can be made, organize. Find someone to act as a plaintiff, don't wait for them to walk into your office. Come out to any event and start talking to people - explain the process to them, as well as any risks - and eventually you will find someone. I've personally run into a number of people who have been willing to make a deposition; could these people be talked into taking the next step? Perhaps.

Meanwhile others of us will attempt to continue trying him in the court of public opinion.

And still others will pursue other avenues.

Speaking as one of many regular folks that have been sparked into action - actually doing something, a little every day, sometimes a lot - its clear to me that the Emerson Affair has kindled a longer-lasting fire than the usual "outrage of the day".

Here we are almost 8 weeks into this scandal and people are still talking about it. Public support for our protest remains strong.

No matter what, we will have achieved somethings... but none of us believe its over. What's needed are more and more people and they are coming. Last week I got a phone call from someone in Montreal wanting to pitch in. Yesterday it was someone near UBC. This evening - a fellow in Delta I'd never met nor talked to before made an offer and passed on an idea.

There's stuff happening. We'll keep moving forward.

Right on Mr.Watkins.What Emerson, and others with less infamy have done to make Democracy in Canda a current sham cannot be under stated.Emerson is eminently qualified to look after Emerson whether a Liberal or a Conservative.The fact that people even elected him at all speaks volumes about their collective political astuteness. Nonetheless, I agree with you that we need to continue to organize and organize until we realize a dream, a dream of "a fair share for all" and integrity in our political life. The Greatest Canadian voiced it often and eloquently during his long and selfless career,"Humanity For All".

From those condemned to labour
For profit of another
We take our new endeavour.

For sect and class and pattern
Through whom the strata harden
We sharpen now the weapon.

Till power is brought to pooling
And outcasts share in ruling
There will not be an ending
Nor any peace for spending.
F. R. Scott

Steven Harper, March 13th...
"There will be some who want to cut and run, but cutting and running is not my way and it's not the Canadian way," he said, to a round of applause.

David Emerson, January 23rd, "I would like to be Stephen Harper's worst nightmare."

David "Cut and Run" Emerson.
PS: Hi Ma!

I understand that people feel betrayed. As a Conservative voter (and a big fan of David Emerson), I didn't like this move. I thought it was hypocritical to hammer the Liberals for the Stronach defection, and then to turn around and recruit Emerson.

However - people HAVE TO GET A LIFE! This is not impacting anybody in any form, shape or way. In fact, I am sure Emerson is working tirelessly to resolve the softwood lumber dispute for the benefit of British Columbia.

Take it out on David and the Conservatives next election - that is the democratic process.

We live in a great country and you know things must be good when people have the time to complain about a cabinet minister switching political parties - to the detriment of nobody, but a few hurt feelings and betrayed trust.

Imagine how much better off we'd be if people took the effort to achieve great things, as opposed to wasting their efforts on a negative and meaningless protest.

I find it unbelievable actually - get over it!

mabellbc
Get stuffed girl! You conservatives don’t have a clue about real democracy. If you did, you'd be out in the streets demonstrating too. This isn't just about Emerson, it's about the arrogance of a system that pays lip service to being about paying attention to what the people actually want and then behaving in ways that do nothing but preserve the privileges of a tiny, acquisitive few. You of all people are typical of that if anything you've posted to this site was the truth.

That's why this isn't going away. Because it's long past time people like you and Emerson and the other enablers of an unfair and compromised system got over it.

Please Peter Dimitrov, you were not the only person writing here on the unlikely removal of Emerson the turncoat.

And if all it takes is a leader to stand up and start the fight to truly oust him, why are you wasting space here slamming everyone else rather than being that leader?

I realize you have to sell yourself some how, but, give us a break on the self-righteous will you.

darcy mcgee, your true namesake would likely puke in your face if he heard your comments.

IAMC, you are a broken record. The Belinda Stronach caper was by no means even similar to the disgusting act that Emerson pulled.

Stronach was elected as a Conservative and sat quite some time as one. She left only after it became apparent she and Stephen Harper were on different tracks.

Emerson didn't even stick around long enough change his shorts, abandoning his constituents in favour of a Tory cabinet position and a better pay cheque.

Not once did he approach constituents to ask 'what do you think?'

As for Kilian's article, I'd say the author seems to be far too enamoured by Emerson's public relations efforts to sell himself as a necessity to BC and Canada.

That Gordon Campbell, Sam Sullivan and two well-fed corporate spounges praised his defection shows us once again the sleezy linkages between all these pro-development types.

In my eye, he is the classic corporate rogue, who if his fortunes were different, might be barking along some glitzy carnival midway, looking for his next easy meal.

This fiasco has nothing to do with ensuring the best candidate stays. Instead it is about blatant opportunism by a guy who would stand out as untrustworthy even in a crowd of con artists.

If he had any class he would stand up and address his constituents in public discussion, but then that would mean acknowledging his first priority was himself.

I salute the Vancouver-Kingsway constituents who put their money up front yesterday and rented the airplane that circled Parliament
Hill in Ottawa urging the self-serving turncoat to quit hiding from the people he ripped off.

No, it won't get him to change his mind, but unlike what others say here, it certainly keeps the issue fresh, just as the rally by some 500 did on the weekend.

Oh, and BTW, I do understand there were reps from Labour at that rally who aren't really interesting in helping the corporate sector carve up Canada for the US as Dimintrov alleges above in a not very subtle and cheap shot at people who just don't understand how valuable he too is to the world.

allan comments:

Emerson didn't even stick around long enough change his shorts, abandoning his constituents in favour of a Tory cabinet position and a better pay cheque.

Stronach switched sides when there was some real gain to be had by doing so, once Mr. Dithers had painted himself into a corner. Her decision to either not run any more or leave had already benn made (who knows Harper may have already threatened to NOT sign her next nomination papers).

I say that Emerson did exactly the same thing.
1) He was part of the previous minority government, so he had already been working for the Liberals in high office.
2) The night of the election Mr. Dithers bails out from the party, essentially announcing his semi-retirment. Emerson MUST have known that his benefactor at the caucus table was gone now and his chances at doing anything more than being a fence-post with hair were slim to none. So just like Stronach he had likely known that, as a Liberal, this was his last parliament.
3) Enter an offer to 'carry on' in his previous post, just like Stronach, why not?

As to the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway feeling left out, they are woefully misinformed (as even The Tyee has put on articles about this) about the nature of the ballot in Canada.

WE DO NOT ELECT A PARTY IN CANADA, WE ELECT A PERSON TO SIT AS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT.

Like it or lump it, once elected as the member, that person is free to do as they se fit in 'representing' their constituency. Whether there are people in the constituency that like it or not.

The fact that Emerson was a 'parachute' candidate is something I consider to be worse than his switching stripes. Maybe in the future the Liberal riding association will reject the dictates of the Party Leader and really find good candidates on their own, from their own membership.

Emerson told the press yesterday that "I couldn't care less", when asked about his consituents in Vanc-Kingsway and their concerns about the floor crossing.

Perhaps next the Conservatives will try to enact a law, so that all Canadians will bow to their presence.

Really, when will the real backlash begin?

Emer$on'$ real problem is that he got TOO GREEDY AT THE TROUGH and all the other barnyard animals FINALLY started bleating loud enough,hard enough and to the right media...

the barnyard is now politically charged and the big GLUTTONOUS EMER$ON is looking like he is losing his porcine girth and what power he had in that size.He looks to be getting weaker and even the rats are looking him over as an entree.

When you get too greedy,somebody is apt to notice,ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY...

Anybody who's going to argue that the riding of Vancouver Kingsway hasn't been neglected has got a long argument ahead of them. Sophie Leung certainly did her best to completely ignore the place.

As for qualifications, Emerson is educated and quite bright. I'm not fond of his personality, not his ideology (if he ever becomes Finance Minister, I will fear for the entire country) but that does not diminish his intelligence.

The same can't be said for people on this discussion board who resort to name calling.

A question worth considering: Scott Brison crossed the floor, and was named a Parliamentary Secretary two days later. Belinda crossed the floor, voted with her "new" party and then was named a cabinet minister.

How long did both of those stories stay in the media?

Why has this one stayed so long?

crh complains:

Only once all our civil liberties are truly restricted, our children wander about hungry and we only get 'just what is mandated' by the state. Once that mandate level drops too low, then we will revolt - it will not be a backlash, it will be a whiplash.

Sadly I think it will take another 30-50 years to reach this level, so make sure your chilren read Orwell and Voltaire along with Seuss and Peter Pan.

darcy.mcgee comments:

How long did both of those stories stay in the media?

Why has this one stayed so long?

Brison crossed into a Liberal majority, no effect on any day to day operations of the governance of the country, end of story.

Stronach became the reason for vote stability in the House, once again; after the crossing there would be no instability in the House and therefore the story ends.

Emerson 'crossed' outside of the house sitting and very soon after an election, unprecedented. I argue that while the timing is unique, the motives are not. Opportunists are combining with some real unhappy voters to create 'the perfect storm' for the media to cover. These actions give the media something to 'feed the beast'.

There are some whom say that the Parliament Hill reporters are favorable to only the Liberals, I recall there being similar claims about them supporting the PC government of Mulroney. The media will support any whom let them have their 'daily bread' and 'help feed the beast' of news broadcast. It looked like the Conservatives had figured this out during the election campaign, but then they are switched back to holding the media off at arms length.

I argue that the switch has seen the Parliament Hill media willing to keep this story alive, not out of any malicious design, but because there is little else to write about.

Murdock, you are wrong, we elect both a person and a party (both are on the ballot).

Mabellbc, I have it from someone in Ottawa who knows, that Emerson was seen as a very weak MP and negotiator on softwood. He's not the great businessman and intellect that he thinks he is. In other words, the Conservatives got an unprincipled lemon. Plus, the guy can't give an interview without saying something either arrogant or clueless. ("I am a Buddhist and thus above partisan politics" - pull-ease, you sure tried to fool the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway about your partisanship.)

The point is Canadians want a better, more responsive system. The Emerson affair has just shown how little power the ordinary voter has.

Emerson will bumble along; his minions might even manage to solve softwood. He will never run again, and I'll bet will end up with a plum job in the Olympics courtesy of his BC Liberal hack friends.

Butsome time in the future, his obituary will inevitably speak of his turncoat status, and I take great comfort in that.

Don't forget, especially when Murdock is holding forth, to read a little Hobbes too.

Alcibiades - I am not a 'girl' although I should consider changing my ID for this forum, as you are the 2nd person to confuse me as one.

Conservatives don't demonstrate or protest, because we are too busy being productive in society - creating opportunities, starting businesses, etc.

It bothers me how you socialists call corporations greedy - it is the socialists who are greedy. They always want more for less, and resent those who achieve in our great society.

It took bribes from Carole Taylor to get these no-good public sector unions to the table. These greedy socialistic unions couldn't turn down free cash....for nothing!!

marta

no we do not vote for a party, there are no party lists, there are no party only ballots, there are no party proxy ballots where the electorate hands over their franchise to a party leader. the (party afiliation) is (in brackets) on the ballot and under our law means that it is (excluded) from legal argument.

The entire system has been designed by and for the the support of the, mainly, lawyers that work and serve within it. Do you really think that they would have not left themselves without an escape clause?

G West
Calvin and Hobbes sounds good too! ;-)

Mabellbc

I am not a socialist, unless you consider a federal Liberal a socialist (let me guess...).

I am not anti-business or anti-government. Both play an important role in a productive society.

What I am is anti-David Emerson and the contempt he showed for his voters.

Mel - indeed -don't get me wrong - the 'heat' in the streets organized by various citizen groups is right on - but my main point, is that has been insufficient in numbers precisely because the obstensible failure of Labor's leadership, and and the non-involvement as such organziations as the Council of Canadians - there hasn't been a 'mobilization' on this issue, there has rather been silence - despite the fact that some progressive labor union members have attended rallies, and some progressive Leaders, like Fred Muzin - have spoken out strongly on this issue. YES, I realize 'negotiations' with the BC government have been underway, but surely, something could have been organized by Labor and other community groups. Allan, as for showing leadership on this issue, I've written extensively, spoke on the media, talked to all sorts of people, but, I admittedly, I am not a ace-organizer and don't pretend to be. Clearly Allan you don't 'like my 'slamming' -especially, you don't like me going after the 'silence' of Labor -but I thought the matter needed to be brought forward for discussion. Indeed, Allan, I was not the only person writing about the unlikely resignation of the turncoat - many were, including Monsieur Murdock & others too did so write, but the point being, the resignation was predictably unlikely - substantially due to our collective historical inability as a peoples to organize and exhibit solidarity in the manner & scale of say, the French, during these last weeks, or during 1968 for example - and I personally don't know what it will take to 'fire' up the citizens in the same scale/manner as in France, or Italy, or Venezuela, - if organizations such as Labor, and the Council for Canadians, and other pan-Canadian organizations - that many hope are progressive- don't come together with others and act. From their obstensible silence and non-action - what are we to infer - that they are on the same side on this 'issue' as Premier Campbell, Mayor Sullivan, the Board of Trade, the Chamber of Commerce - who all 'approve' and say we should 'get a life' and move on - is not that the inference one can make, and if not - go ahead and make the case why I, and others should infer that conclusion. As for those who agree with my inference - what conclusions can we draw for future reference - is Labor obstensibly Allied with Capital and Continentalism - or can we identify progressive 'currents' and 'leadership' with Labor that dependably can be relied upon by citizen/citizen groups seeking to restore democracy and stop the flow of continentalism and right wing economic, social ideology into Canada?

mabelbc....

Uh huh...
And you know this how? He told you? And you believe it? He said he'd be Harpers worst nightmare too... talked about how he was going to really put it to your beloved Conservatives.
And it turns out he was just full of it.
Which you seem to like.

So okay mabelbc, the question for you is... are people who believe this clown at this point (like you) stupid or just gullible?

Seriously mabelbc, how many times have you fallen for the "relax, I'll just pull it out" trick?

P.S.: I know you're 'not happy' Mum, but you said I could!

OFF TOPIC: CURIOUS TIMING:

I see the Vanc. Sun today , (finally) has a 4 page investigative piece into the BC Legislature raid, and related Liberal dishonesties,focusing on Liberal operative David Basi's activities, and the criminal charges against him.

Many have wondered why the media chose to ignore this story leading up to the BC election. The optics are that Canwest and others deliberately buried a story likely to
be a drag on Liberal momentum leading up to voting day. Now the Fiberals are sitting pretty, comfortable in their majority, and
receiving lots of good news stories (labour peace, healthy economy, surpluses). The Sun
views April as a safe time to now explore this story, a time when Fibs are less vulnerable to serious negative sentiment fall out.

Where would Canadian press freedom be without our beloved Asper gang leading the charge, always acting in the public interest?
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=5b67f0be-496a-4b45-9685-1b1df2882f09&k=76589
signed,
"A Proud Canadian/BCer"

marta writes:

I do not know if you are a voter in Vancouver-Kingsway, if you are then I ask,
"Why did you allow the dictates of Mr. Dithers to 'parachute' Emerson in as the candidate in the first place?"

If you are not a voter in Vancouver-Kinsway, then I ask,
"What do you think about 'parachute' candidates that are forced on riding associations by the dictate of the Party brass?"

If you accept that the party powers can 'parachute' candidates into ridings then you had better be ready to accept anything, yes anything that these candidates say or do; whether elected or not.

If you do not like the 'parachute' candidates then maybe you did like so many other federal Liberals in the last election, sit on their hands, zip up their mouths and put on blinders.

Now that the election is over and Mr Dithers has fallen on his sword these hidden Liberals are coming out...they do not care about the current parliament, only in making sure the foibles of the past for the Conservatives (thier real opponent) stay in public view for as long as possible.

Name calling?

You are the fellow who has opted to call yourself by someone's name, darcy mcgee, so don't flash too brightly when it's tossed back at you.

The world is full of well educated and intelligent people, some of whom are quite nice and all.

But as seen by Emerson's quick coversion, intelligence doesn't necesarily equate to honesty, integrety or anything else I'd call attributes for public office.

Murdock, give us a break on Stronach. She at least tried to work within the Conservative party before jumping as did Scott Brison.

Your suggestion that she had already opted to go to the Liberals because Harper had threatened not to sign her nomination is a real possibility and is certainly far more justification than Emerson's slap to the face of his constituents.

It matters little if Emerson had the legal right to give the finger to those who voted for a Liberal MP in Vancouver-Kingsway.

What matters, and it's been THE issue in Canadian politics for years, is the ethics of using his former supporters as pawns in his self-serving bid for power and prestige.

But then ethics is a bit of a foreign word in corporate parlance, isn't it?

Others have said it, I'll repeat it. He knew the will of the people in Vancouver-Kingsway and like too many on the corporate side of this country, simply stepped all over their votes as he slickly grabbed onto the Tory gravy train.

Personally I can accept it when someone admits they made a dumb mistake, but it really grits when they think they are too smart by half to have to explain that democracy is merely a prop they used to their own advantage.

David Emerson has gone from being the darling of corporate worshippers to become a national symbol of what is wrong with politics in Canada, an icon for the serve-serving.

Emerson the conservatives , the elite welthy class all seem to show a contempt for the voter in this country. The press tells us whata great man Emerson is. This is not a good sign. Why when voter turnout hits 50% with mostly the wealthy voting we will here more about voter apathy. Well acttions like this and BC s provincial government where even after all these years everything is the NDP s fault create apathy. As to labour negotiations its good to see some peace but after the olympics it will be back to Slash and Burn. The raids as the Government see it have nothing to do with them.

mabellbc
Are you still confused about your gender? You really need to come to grips with it - the peace of mind will be quite liberating. As to your politics and your productivity: I've been reading about that, and your ideas about economics, and your extensive 'education' in that area for some time too. It won't wash, not then, not now. As a commentator and critic, you are completely unmasked for anyone who's read more than three of your posts.
As is, by the way, murdock and his anarchistic ideals which masquerade as something else too.

murdock wrote:

Interesting then that some weeks prior to the election, I received a phone call asking me if I would be voting for Stephen Harper. My response was that I wasn't even aware that he was running in my mid Vancouver Island riding.

While the ideal of democracy is that we vote for the person whom we feel will best represent us, everything from there on is based on the parties - the advertising blitzkreig, the debates and all the media opportunities. Just one more example of the hypocrisy of "those who would be kings" yet "have no clothes".

allan continues:

Murdock, give us a break on Stronach. She at least tried to work within the Conservative party before jumping as did Scott Brison.

SO DID EMERSON!

Or do you consider the 18 months prior to the last election as moot?

You make the point the Stronach had worked along in the Conservatives and found it unworkable. Possibly that the party Leader wanted her out...
I make the same statement, Emerson worked IN GOVERNMENT before the election so he had already served within the Liberal party, moreover he was a parachute candidate that needed the Party Leaders' signature to continue running. Mr Dithers had bailed ON ELECTION NIGHT, unless Emerson was really sure he could win the riding association (not likely as he barley acknowledged them as a 'field office') he must have known that is re-elction was not possible; therefore his decision process must have included the same factor as Stronach, as neither were going to get re-elected under their old party banners.

and Emerson did not have Mr Dithers around to sign his ever again either.

it is the heart of the issue! Without this right, he would have to stand for byelection or some other madness under proposals that are coming out. The ability to change colors is the only hammer that MP's have left. Take it away and lets just change the name of Canada to Cuba, OK?

Before we go into a discussion of ethics and sophistry, let us at least agree that one persons' view of ethics is different from anothers?

disagree?
look here before retorting in anger:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Sophistry-in-Modern-Life&id=157219
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophists
or
http://hometown.aol.com/drhumph/prolgmna.htm

cheers

Emerson may be guilty of poor judgment (we'll see what happens next election), but I think it is perfectly predictable (although not necessarily ethical) under conditions of unstable minority governments. I think with minority governments we can expect more of this kind of horse-trading to hold onto power.

allan complained:

I say that the voters in Vancouver-Kingsway that voted for the Liberal Party banner and ignored the name Emerson made a dumb mistake and now they are not admitting it, but rather going on in other silly ways to change their collective decision.

The only 'prop' is the Party banners that are flying all over the place, more independant candidates getting elected would go a long way to ending their 'over-arching' power.

Conservatives - and I should know, as I've been active in federal conservative circles for years - decried the Stronach and Brison defections. In behind the scenes there were movements to "get Stronach", "get Brison" and ensure their constituents never re-elected them. They were decried in the House of Commons. They were called names by MP's and party members alike. We gave them their due.

Emerson is merely the absolute, no holds barred, worst example we've seen to date.

46,168 people voted in my riding and ZERO got what they voted for.

That's not real democracy.

Emerson ran an extremely partisan campaign, twice, in order to win, twice. He ran a campaign based on promises which as a Liberal he could keep, but as a Conservative he can't keep. He swore to defend a number of Liberal policies... now as a Conservative cabinet minister he will vote to throw same policies out the door.

No one in my riding voted for that.

He's been a BC deputy minister (Finance, Premier) twice. He's run crown corporations (Ferries, BC Trade Development Corp, Vancouver Intl Airport). He's run Canada's largest forest products company (Canfor). This is no political neophyte. He knew exactly what he was doing - all the whitewash about working for his constituents is crap - he only wants to have control over Gateway, Olympics and Trade, which given his former portfolios, makes perfect sense.

He's been tightly connected to the largest companies in BC for decades, through his hand on the levers of power for decades. His real constituency is not the people of my riding.

Harper had a choice - this is his fault as much as Emerson's. He could have had Emerson resign and take a deputy minister position - Emerson would have had virtually the same power, yet Vancouver Kingsway could have the chance to get representation they desire.

Instead, my party decided to steal their votes rather than earn them. That's not right.

No REAL Conservative would dare justify what Harper and Emerson have done. You can't justify the unjust; can't sell the unsellable.

46,168 voters asked for one thing; none got what they wanted. Two arrogant men behind closed doors decided to usurp our democracy one more time.

Thousands of Vancouver-area folks - and people from across the country - are not letting them have a pass this time.

In the next election people will think twice before casting their ballots, and people like me will make sure they are reminded of what happened on Feb 6, 2006, no matter when the next election comes up. You can take that to the bank.

Its time for Conservatives to do the right thing and stand alongside the people of Vancouver-Kingsway, and call for Emerson's resignation.

If they don't, they'll find that the people will remember that "Stand Up for Canada" and "federal accountability" as much b.s. as people feared but hoped otherwise.

vigilantz,

the party branding is a means to and end of control over the system.

it did not start that way, but the pressure (especially economic pressure) to conform to the party platforms and designs will continue.

I note that the actual debate or discussion of real items did not happen this past election, I suspect that this trend will continue.

Watch for the names of the candidates to vanish from the ballot and only the party name to appear (in large bold letters and full color) alone. Independants would need to be Billionaires to even bother trying to get elected, just to be ignored by the party machines in power.

Watch also for polyticks (poly=many; ticks=bloodsuckers) to expand into more and more of our daily lives until we finnaly have had enough of the zany antics of all of these clowns, ditching the system for something else.

And then we'll elect Murdock king of BC and all will be well. Your solution is no solution at all.

G West,

I did not give any solutions.

Your sanctimonius comments notwithstanding, what is your solution?

mwatkins observes:

the campaign is run from the 'boiler-room' or a 'think-tank' that puts out materials, supplies and volunteers to support this or that candidate. it is all based on very detailed planning, gamesmanship and social observations.

His words were not his own, as it is with all the 'parachute' candidates as they have had little or no time to 'get to know' their constituents. Complaining about election campaign tactics is like complaining about a soft-drink commercial. The correct solution is not to BUY it.

Yes, but having him 'resign' would not allow for the 'double-whammy' of getting the Liberals back for Bryson and Stronach and getting another vote into the Party tent in Parliament.
The vote was more important than the man in this case, the choice was probably motivated by some insider information about Mr. Emerson's choices now that Mr Dithers was gone.

Parliament Hill reporters are loyal to the government in power, as long as the story sings well. The like conflict.

46,168 voters asked for one thing; none got what they wanted.

Mike Watkins is indeed a long time conservative. That he claims to speak for "real" conservatives is dubious: did he take a vote of "real" conservatives prior to claiming this? Who defines the line of "real" conseratives -- he alone?

Democracy indeed.

Are you suggesting that of 46,168 voters not one person voted for Emerson the man? Not one person voted was disillusioned with the Liberals but happy enough with Emerson's work to vote for him again?

Surely you wouldn't speak for 46,168 voters without being elected yourself.

Why do people assume everbody's name here is fake? Allan -- how dare you adopt the name of my friend who works for Electronic Arts. How dare you! You've got a lot of nerve!

G West

as I thought, no solution at all.

Neo-cons and the greedy, corporate elite have no conscience therefor the concept of ethical behavior has no meaning to them. No more so than a tiger beetle ponders the moral implications of devouring it's next prey.
Just now on CBC, a pro harper hack is expounding upon the virtues of what he calls the "common sense evolution"!
If that turns out to be true I guess we can expect first nation negotiations to place at the end of a gun barrel.
And good thing harpers gonna "get tough" on crime since under his (corporate) economic policy theres going to be a lot more desperate, homeless people to throw in for-profit prisons for stealing loaves of bread.

Allan,

You are perhaps one of the most ideologically rigid person I have ever met. I would consider Stronach's defection worse than Emerson's.

Like I said, Emerson's defection impacts nothing. Stronach's defection kept that lousy, corrupt government in place for another 8 months.

Stronach's defection single-handedly kept that house together. Emerson would have been a meaningless back-bencher and now is in a position of power.

Arrogant...yes, opportunistic....sure, inconsequential to the people of Canada....no doubt about it.

What I am saying is if you don't like it, vote him out! In the meantime, you are all people with far too much time on your hands. Use your energy on something that is actually going to impact your life, or others.

There are far bigger problems in this world than David Emerson. I understand people's resentment, especially given that Kingsway would NEVER vote Conservative.

We all need to step back and take a look at the big picture. The problem is that you all feel so cheated by this world and rather than do anything about it - post away on this forum or waste your time protesting.

Go to the gym, clean-up, bolster your resume, start investing, start volunteering!!!

Murdock
I've been away. Some of us, alas, have other things to do than hang around here planning for the Republic of British Columbistan.
My solution for the Emerson thing is for him to resign and, if he still thinks the public welfare of this country depends upon his continued presence in cabinet, run for the party he now says is closest to his heart.

That's been the solution from the first day that John Reynolds and or Stephen Harper solicited his participation in their republican enterprise.

Pretty plain, pretty neat, and pretty much what I’ve suggested all along. No mystery. What is a mystery to me is that anyone could suggest the kinds of alternatives you so obviously favour would keep the self-interest and greed out of politics. You might want to spend some time in Switzerland to find out how ineffective and racist local direct democracy can be.

mabellbc
Ah yes: power over principle every time. At least you're honest about it.

Can you not understand why waiting till the next election to 'vote him out' is a subversion of everything conservatives claimed they cared about?

Accountability isn't just something you can turn on and off when you feel like it...when it suits your fancy. It has to mean something about the way you behave now, not the way you promise to behave in the future. It isn't something you total up at the end of each administration; it is something you live by.

God help us if the majority of the people in this country ever start thinking the way you do. What the hell was the point in fighting the last war if that's the kind of ethics you really believe in? So long as you personally are happy about the ends you couldn’t give a damn about the means. I do appreciate your honesty though, it makes it so much easier to mount a case against you.

GWest
A speaker at the Walk for Democracy said almost exactly the same thing...though Governments
will change..ethics must remain constant.

mabellc

It's not either or. We can post on this forum AND invest, go to the gym etc. We can even be interested in the impact of China on our trade, the implications of enviromental change, (pick whatever important topic you like) AND dislike what happened with Emerson.

I don't stay awake at night worrying about him.
However, I do want some changes in our political systems.

And some of us really aren't ideologically rigid, unlike you. I have voted Liberal, NDP, Green, and Conservative at various times in my life.

particularly galling for the Chinese folks who spoke at the Rally was their Chinese Canadian Liberal candidate being told to step aside for his Eminence.

Instead of being interested in the impact of China on our trade don't you think the time has come to be interested in the impact of our trade on China?

About time we started looking to the future, instead of a tired old past isn't it?

marta - agreed!

i wasn't referring to your type. I was referring to allan, g west and those protesting on the streets. this is old news and i am tired.

i already stated that i do not agree with him crossing the floor. however, we have much bigger issues at hand.

i can assure you that if the tyee did a column on china's impact on the global economy - you and I would be the only posters - unless of course, there was discussion of David Emerson spearheading negotiations.

i know we can invest, go to the gym and post on this forum. i invest, own a small business and go to the gym!!

marta - we need more people like you in this world. i too have voted for several parties - Conservative, Reform, Alliance and Liberal.....well, BC Liberal!

TAKE CARE

darcy - well put!

G West,

I had thought you were still online since you were sniping back so quickly.

This is a non-starter. Our representative democracy would grind to a stand-still were those MP's who wanted to switch (or just sit as independant) had to go thru this sort of thing.

Moreover if being tossed out of caucus is enough to trigger the byelection then bye-bye to any further independant thought at all by any elected person. Bad enough that they are crushed by the whip and party rule but do not take away the last vestige of any ability to act from them.

I do not agree with what Emerson did either, but I am willing to stand by his right to do it.

That is part of what the wars were faught for.

maybellebc
You really are a piece of work. To suggest that thinking Emerson and Harper are moral bankrupts is the only thing the people with whom you disagree are concerned is worse than blindness, it is willful blindness. The Tyee may be your only recreation and community involvement - it certainly isn't mine. I've been volunteering at a soup kitchen for more than 20 years and in that time I've seen the effects of the kind of selfish attitude that you and others have had on the poor and the dispossessed in this province. In that time I’ve seen the daily count of people grow regularly and, in the last five years it has actually come to include more and more young families with children.
Why do you think I care about what you and guys like Emerson are doing to this province and this country? God, the nerve! And to suggest that I might get something out of ‘Investing’ – profits really are the only thing that count for you!!

INVESTING is what is IMPORTANT...

When you invest in your country,you invest in the future of your childrens ,children.

the only investment worth figting for , and in the end , dieing for...so, don't let our forefathers down...INVEST IN THE FUTURE.

listen to mabellbc,he's finally making sense,not cents.

murdock
Forcing these bankrupt souls to actually take some real responsibility for what they are and how they behave as human beings who draw breath from the same atmosphere the rest of breathe is the answer. Personal responsibility expressed in a collective fashion and not some scheme that we can create a better kind of local democracy is the direction we should be going. We need a concept of public service that doesn't mean public service just for me and my friends. If my children behaved the way my politicians do I'd disown them. It's time we all stepped up to the plate to demand it. There’s a country and a decent society here worth saving; and now, not sometime 20 years in the future when things have slid ever further down the road to ruin.

This Harper Emerson thing ought to be the event to mobilize that kind of personal and collective responsibility – it certainly has in my case - why don’t you get with it too?

Harald
this is what maybelle said:

I don't think that's the kind of investing you're talking about - it's certainly not what I took him to mean! I agree with your definition of the word, however, and that's exactly what I'm on about.
Cheers

G West,

I did before the 1st Martin election, then learned the folly of my ways.

I think the best plan would be to embrace that which scares us the most, let the poisons come out fast. That way the nasty ones are exposed quickly and we can all get back to a better way of life.

Fighting on now just delays it. Giving ulcers along the way.

I shall try to work on my way around them in Ottawa until my fellow electors around me wake up to the fact that they, in Ottawa (and I count anyone we elect to 'go there'), do not give a fig about what happens here in BC. So long as they continue to get their taxes and resources out of us they will not change.

I agree with a comment above. Get stuffed MaBell! Most humans are stupid creatures and your type is the dumbest of the dumb. You advocate going out and creating something! Go work for your prosperity and then everything will be fine!? So you advocate rape and theft of the land for short term gain for the few wealthy and priveledged. I would love to be around when the big wheel stops for good. Every man for himself... people like you banging on the door of the long abandoned police station, cring for help and protection!! You earned your right to be rich, you earned your right to consume and you think you will be protected by our man made laws. You earned your right to go extinct! Nature will judge you and the decsion will effect all of us. Left, right! Who cares! You just don't get it period! That goes for the rest of you tail gating, lane hoping, speedy monkies on the freeway ahead of me! FOAD. Sooner the better. Go Dolphins!

murdock
Obviously, for reasons already given, I think that's the wrong course. If had more confidence in our political leaders here in BC as being capable of delivering better public services than the thugs in Ottawa I might agree with you. I don't! they're all the same rascals and I'm not prepared to substitute a new devil for one I already know pretty well. I want to bring all of them to account and I think now's the time. If Harper gets his majority we're doomed to become a facile imitation of that cesspool south of the 49th. I can't cook that much soup so I'll take my stand now.
Cheers.

quote:

There’s a country and a decent society here worth saving; and now, not sometime 20 years in the future when things have slid ever further down the road to ruin.

Mr. Crawford was calling for a revolituion, wasn't he, something about 'getting rid of the nomenklatura'? I hear echoes of 'eat the rich', which was written on many garbage cans when I first came to live in Vancouver from elsewhere, back in the early 70's.

No, seriously, its about the rampant superficial plasticized and disneyfied hedonism which today passes for North American culture. We need not just new furniture, but a whole new building. What to do? a coalition of the serious?

that is EXACTLYthe WORD PLAY i wanted to EMPHASIZE...

I mean, really we are ALL ON THE SAME TEAM!

emer$on ,IS A LITTLE MAN ...WE CAN GET RID OF HIM...

no guttersnipes,we already know bullets are cheap.

suggestions ?

the emer$on call home was a

OOOPPPSSS,WRONG BUTTON...

ROOT CANAL....owieeeee

hey! maybe we can shut him up with the old "marathom man method!"

hey ! you can"t take me to jail 4 a joke !

CAN THEY ?

G West,

Oh I agree the local bunch of villans are not any better than the vile crowd in Ottawa, its just that we can try to organize something closer to home and see it effectively thru to completion closer to home than on the other side of the center of the universe (TO).

With the prospect of ruling something better than the forest land lot and water tank of Ottawa would not there be a chance of finding or better yet founding a better governance here?

What you are proposing is to volunteer and feel good our way out of a trap built in 1867.

Might it not be time to start working on something better?

After reading all the repetition on this post about Emerson, I think I know what really burns the majority of these writers. It's that we now have a Conservative Govt. in Canada.
And one who's popularity is vaulting to heights that scare the hell out of them.
You can't compare Belinda with David. I have seen all the angles people are trying to use, but it just isn't convincing.
Again I have to ask, if this floor crossing thing is a practice of Liberals mainly, why are you all concentrating on the Conservatives.
This isn't the last crossing we will see, and there have been dozens in our history.
Get over it.

Exactly! But it has to start with something and it has to start somewhere and around some recognizable issue, not a bunch of theory.

You think this bunch wouldn't buckle if Canadians kicked up 20% of the stink that's filling the air in Paris these days?

I have no doubt they would; Emerson would take his coupons and scuttle back to the private sector where he came from if confronted with real anger and real protest.

With respect to that, Peter Dimitrov was correct when he wrote what he did last night, in my opinion.

Emerson's on the radio right now - Am 690

Says he won't make himself available to his constituents. Bet that doesn't apply to his Howe Street and Government Street friends! What a democrat! What a public servant! What a fraud!

mabellbc, hey what can I say other than Emerson pulled a good old bait-n-switch.

In retail he'd at least get a fine and in finance it might even be time, but no, we're talking about political ethics here and so it's ok to screw the voter.

Christ, PT Barnham would've been proud to have some of you guys in his show.

OK, so this is way off topic, but I am stumped. How is it that a e-paper (e-magazine for all you purists) that is dedicated to reporting on all things which either shine a kind light on the "working people" (ie - unionized workers) or anthing left of centre, can not generate a report regarding each and every unionized worker in the civil service of this fine province settling their contracts without missing a days work. Take this one step further, they all settled prior to the expiration of their current CA's?

But then, that would be a difficult story to report without at least hinting at the astonishing accomplishments of the provincial Liberals. So, we will continue to hear stories about Raif on a cruise ship enjoying his farmed salmon (oh, no misseur Mair, this is the finest wild Atlantic salmon to be found in the Pacific) and others about shopping at thrift shops.

What's so astonishing about it? I think we all realize that the public (and probably the courts) were getting tired of the Libs's heavy handed previous approaches.

John Reynolds, who personally recruited Emerson starting the day after the Jan. 23 election, said he spoke directly to Emerson by telephone.

"I said to David, 'Listen, you have to look at it very simply. Gordon Campbell the premier of this province, every key business group and person has been on the phone, on the radio, to the media, saying, 'Hey, this is a great move.'"
______________________________________________
Is this the same Gordon Campbell who as Liberal leader in 1996 made his candidates sign a pledge that they would not say one thing before the election and do the opposite after?

Is this the same Gordon Campbell who supported recall legislation that would allow voters to hold their elected representatives to account between elections?

Is this the same Gordon Campbell whose government swept 77 of the 79 seats in the May 16, 2001 election, and then was reduced to only 45 seats in the May 17, 2005 election?

Dumb move Campbell. Stephen Harper had a Kim Campbell type brain fart.

You missed a wonderful opportunity to keep your mouth shut.

Endorsing David Emerson's betrayal won't be forgotten or forgiven in the next provincial election. Kiss your majority goodbye.

Hey, why hasn't anyone mentioned the real reason why Emerson crossed the floor? Jimmy Pattison told him to. Emerson was bought a long time ago and that "Bad British Columbian" REALLY needs to be tossed out. I support any movement to oust slimeballs like that. What he did was completely out of line.

The Conservatives asked voters to "Stand Up For Canada". Right. Whose Canada?

The following are the bills of the last Parliament which the Conservatives brought forward - Emerson voted against every single one.

C-215 - Criminal Code (consecutive sentence for use of firearm in commission of offence)

C- 248 - Controlled Drugs and Substances Act (trafficking in a controlled drug or substance within five hundred metres of an elementary school or a high school)

C-313 - Criminal Code (prohibited sexual acts)

C-293 - Criminal Code (theft of a motor vehicle)

C-275 - Criminal Code (failure to stop at scene of accident)

C-259 - Excise Tax Act (elimination of excise tax on jewellery)

C-215 - Criminal Code (consecutive sentence for use of firearm in commission of offence)

C-265 - Income Tax Act (exemption from taxation of 50% of United States social security payments to Canadian residents)

C-283 - amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations
______________________________________________
It will be amusing to watch this political slut in action.

G West complains about Mr Emerson:

Sounds exactly like what PM Cretien had to say after the Shawinigate material hit the fan.

He stayed in his Ottawa Offices with extra security and did not give any interviews until the heat died down.

Same sh*t, different smell.

murdock
I was complaining about that at the time too - what's your point?

G West,

that they, the MP's of the Main Line Parties, once they become Ministers of the Crown must all drink the same cool-aid or something because they change and become nothing like what they purport to be before the 'transformation'.

there must be some strange 'power' that eminates from the clock tower or something that turns them into these uffish creatures.

my point

Same sh*t, different smell.

until we are ready to flush, hold your breath or do not go there.

I am ready to flush.

Indy Jones complains:

Clearly not yours, but then the Liberals recruited him, so maybe the Liberals don't represent your Canada either?

Ever consider a third way that does not involve Ottawa or continued connection to a Canada that does not represent you?

Look into what Mr Helmcken had to say at the start in 1870;

murdock
Obviously. I'd be the last to say we don't need a thorough flushing. I just don't think (and maybe I'll be wrong) that we've reached the point where we have to go as far as you seem to think we do. It's a complex world and without some kind of effective government life’s going to end up being, as Hobbes would say, 'nasty, brutish and short'.

Clearly, the rascals have taken it in their minds that the great unwashed are only wanted at the table once every four years or so and are thereafter expected to go back to the mines and tug at their forelocks while the boys and girls in Victoria and Ottawa have all the fun they can have.

We've encouraged them in this behavior and it has to stop. Instead of being disgusted we've hung around the table to see what few scraps we can steal for ourselves.

I might not agree with the issue that has gotten the French folks out in the streets - but those Gallic suckers have the right idea. Until Canadians are willing to give some of the same kind of commitment to organizing for real change we might as well fold. Sitting here waiting for things to get so bad that everyone recognizes this is a train wreck just isn't on, in my opinion. Furthermore, it's irresponsible.

I really think Emerson could be a turning point if ordinary guys like you and me start getting involved. It might not be a perfect issue (Liberals being so compromised themselves) but it does have some attractive features - especially since Emerson and Harper are behaving like such upper-class twits about it. I really think more people should jump on the bandwagon that the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway have provided and ride this for all it's worth. These guys shouldn't be able to see the tops of their desks for months because of the tide of irate letters pouring into their offices. Every time they have a news conference somebody has to ask when Emerson is going to resign and run as a Conservative. This issue already has legs or it wouldn't still be around.

G West,

at least we are on the same page of what to do about Emerson, never let him sleep until he does the 'right thing'

The problem is who is to do the harassing?

I say that the only qualified ones are in Vancouver-Kingsway, if anyone else gets too involved then other concerns start to crop up. Such as:
Who is paying them (others not from the riding) to do it?
What gain to be had by pissing in someone elses' pool?

The real problem is what to do about the whole mess that we, in BC - possibly in the minds of some Albertans and I know of many from Manitoba that are done with Ottawa - find ourselves with. Like a marriage the union of BC to Canada did not have a 'divorce clause' because such concepts were not in the common parlance of the day in 1870. Now we are looking for a solution, thinking it can be found in Ottawa or thru those institutions, when those very institutions are the problem.

Step back, did you like Queen Adrienne? How about her successor? Is not the way we come about our head of state more like something from central Germany in the 1600's? Why does the 'great unwashed' not have a say in who is the Head of State?

The PMO, a continuous gathering of power and control into a single office. Possibly under a single man? Is that not the nature of a dictatorship? Did the conservatives create this situation, no. Did the Liberals? Only culprits possible over the past decade or more.

There will be no 'coming out in the streets', since Toronto (or Bay Street) interests will be served. St. Catherines St. will be taken care of, I have no doubt that the BQ will ensure that their interests are handled well. The Maritimes? so long as the pogy don't get too slashed I see them going along for the ride.

Now, supposedly the current occupant of the PMO says that 'the west is in', I say that Calgary and big oil interests will be well served. But not anyone else.

And before anyone else tries to say that I am a neocon something or other:

I AM NOT A CONSERVATIVE SUPPORTER! I have not been once since they elected Kim Campbell as leader!

I said it before and I will happily say it again, until BC or some other province separates from Canada, we will be stuck with this mess.

Better to flush out the stink now before all the resources are gone and we are left with the clean up bill.

Well murdock, I admire your determination and I sure as hell don't doubt your sincerity. I've just lived in too many parts of this damn country to want to see the sucker split into pieces. I loved Quebec and there were even things about Ottawa, especially in the fall, that made me feel at home there too. Toronto, not so much!
But everywhere across the west - I just think the whole is worth trying to save...although there are times when I'm not so sure about Calgary. I've never lived in the Maritimes or in Newfoundland but one of my kids did for a while and he feels the same about the east as I do about the west so I expect there's something special about those places too and not just the people we all know who've come from there.

Anyway, I don't think the fact that we've had a lot of foul enablers running the shop for a few decades means we need to shut it down so I'll keep trying to keep it together and we'll both take aim at what we can agree on and we’ll see what happens.
OK with you.

Murdock, I have never ever supported the federal Liberals or Conservatives, even during Kim Campbell's time. And I would never support busting up Canada. To break up Canada would be really silly. In my mind, we need to work as concerned citizens to counter those who are bent on exploiting the resources and people of Canada, such as David Emerson, Jimmy Pattison and so on. If Canada splinters, within each splinter you will find the "stink" that you see now. Just look at the group of greedy, grasping morons that are running BC.

Mr Jones
I like to think of the provincial liberals as greedy, self-serving "businessmen" masquerading as corrupt politicians.

Good article.

It reinforces a point that is often made about the American political system, but which the author just as aptly applies to the Canadian political superstructure. The nomenclatura is essentially the same at the top of the structure, and only variations in branding account for the diversity (or lack thereof) of the constituencies that gather under the various labels. There aren't any real fundamental differences between the Liberals and Conservatives when it comes to the real issues (of which I would argue there are only five or six...everything else can be safely batted about by public opinion, to be reversed or amended on an ad hoc basis whenever the electorate gets restless.

Political parties all use the same basic techniques, the same closed networks functioning in an insulated hothouse that almost always escapes scrutiny. The only real variant is power - are they in or out? You'll find Emersons, J. Reynolds (or Basi-&-Virks for that matter) in the woodwork of any party. Only power gives them the opportunity to do their thing. The political branding (Right-Left-Centre) isn't really the significant variable here.

Political parties are not an "official" part of constitutional democracy - they're only an outgrowth of it. They exist for the electoral system, the electoral system does not exist for them.

The Emerson move reflects poor judgment all around, and he should be punished at the polls in the next election (not too far off, really), but the bellyaching and handwringing by the Kitsilano yuppies is getting silly. Idiocy isn't a crime...it's not like he was pulled over drunk like their provincial representative (another Kitsilano kerfuffle over recall & resignation of one of their elected reps....Can't they ever get it right?).

Maybe Kitsilano-&-Point Grey are the ones with the lousy judgment. Should we suspend their voting privileges for the next couple election cycles? ;-)

Good article.

It reinforces a point that is often made about the American political system, but which the author just as aptly applies to the Canadian political superstructure. The nomenclatura is essentially the same at the top of the structure, and only variations in branding account for the diversity (or lack thereof) of the constituencies that gather under the various labels. There aren't any real fundamental differences between the Liberals and Conservatives when it comes to the real issues (of which I would argue there are only five or six...everything else can be safely batted about by public opinion, to be reversed or amended on an ad hoc basis whenever the electorate gets restless.

Political parties all use the same basic techniques, the same closed networks functioning in an insulated hothouse that almost always escapes scrutiny. The only real variant is power - are they in or out? You'll find Emersons, J. Reynolds (or Basi-&-Virks for that matter) in the woodwork of any party. Only power gives them the opportunity to do their thing. The political branding (Right-Left-Centre) isn't really the significant variable here.

Political parties are not an "official" part of constitutional democracy - they're only an outgrowth of it. They exist for the electoral system, the electoral system does not exist for them. They are virtually completely unmonitored and unaccountable 'corporate' actors within our political system.

Idiocy isn't a crime, and there's something a little 'off' about compelling the resignation of any elected member for crossing the floor. Bad precedent. This time was a waste, and he'll pay soon enough, but maybe next time the floor-crossing will actually mean something.

Besides, what does that extra Conservative seat really mean - Isn't it inevitable that we're going back to the polls within a year or so?

That't funny - I posted twice inadvertently....Disregard the first one. I hadn't had my coffee yet and realized I needed to take a closer look at riding-boundaries. My anti-Kitsilano bias overtook my senses.... :-P

Indy Jones responds:

This crew (both sides Lib and NDP) are supported through funding, or volunteers from other places.

The Libs pay lip service to their being 'not connected' to federal parties - yet their MLAs and staff are all on the payroll of either the Federal Conservatives or Liberals (both are making sure they have some say in the direction the provincial govt takes)

The NDP make no bones about their being joined at the hip with the Federal NDP - I therefore make no distiction between them, meaning that monies from the Ontario coffers are just as likely to end up pushing for the election of an NDP MLA in BC as for an MP in the Maritimes.

With that much firepower aimed at anyone trying to represent BC only interest then the Independant MP or candidate has no hope of success.

Just look at the direction the corrupt Federal Liberals took with offers of federal positions elsewhere in Canada to NDP candidates, so long as they withdrew or offered vote splitting support so that another Liberal MP was elected.

The reek is too strong from Ottawa.

There are parts of the Confederation rules that would allow any Province to take a firmer independant stand and hold off Ottawa at arms length. Preston Manning was all about these rules and trying to use them, but the Mind Control Lasers in the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill did him in and after the food in Stornaway I'm sure he was well and truly on the road to his recovery.

Without the provinces willing to stand up for their part of Confederation, what is the point in continuing to call it that?

The madness of assymetrical federalism, as Joe Who called it, will be our undoing as more and more $$$ is put into projects of dubious value while the places the $$$ is coming from are made angrier and angrier.

murdock, you are mixing too many emotional (to you) issues into what is simply a case of blind ambition, which I like to refer to as greed.

Perhaps you could elaborate on why you think the appointments of Adreinne Clarkson and Michaelle Jean have anything to do with the corporate piratism of people like David Emerson.

Is it that they are women, that they were not elected to what is primarily a ceremonial position or that they are not the daughters of some prairie sodbusters who later sold the farm and retired to Victoria?

Personally, I'm fed up with helping to finance Canada's airline industry for the benefit of fat cats who get paid while they fly.

But I'm not going to join a separatist movement and smash what is probably the greatest experiment in history to bring diverse cultures together into one grand understanding of unity, even if we aren't completely there yet.

Also yesterday you suggested that what Emerson did was not any different than what Belinda Stronach or Scot Brison pulled in crossing the floor.

In fact you noted that Emerson had worked within the minority Liberal Party of Paul Martin and (I assume you mean he found it lacking), obviously took the same route as Stronach and Brison.

That's a big fat roll of baloney and you know it. If Emerson was disillussioned as a federal Liberal why would he run as one and then switch?

I'll suggest if that's the case then Emerson suffers from even more personality flaws than previously acknowledged.

What kind of person would run as a Liberal when he knows he can't and won't work within the party?

What kind of person would promise to be Stephen Harper's worst nightmare only to turn around and give the guy wet dreams instead?

What kind of person would pretend to be something he isn't and then when he gets the prize, tell his constituents to bugger off?

And you say you admire a man like that. Please sir, tell us about more of your heros.

nightbloom

I'm sorry, Kitsilano = Vancouver Kingsway.

When did that transformation take place? Haven't lived in Vancouver for some time, but that is quite a change.

Further, if ordinary folks of whatever stripe are finally beginning to stand up to the ethical blankness of 'their' servants where's the need to stop? On the contrary, they, and others should go for it. The fact that the nomenklatura are corrupt and need a good hiding - no matter which brand of soap they're selling - is the fundamental point. Your apologia amounts to business as usual and it's well past time for that. This isn't just an argument about technique and electoral reform. Even if, over time, a new brand of enablers will replace the current small army of self-serving technocrats at the top of the power pyramid is hardly a valid argument for dropping the Emerson case just because it seems to bore you. Treating your ennui is not the problem.

allan,

first off

stop sticking words in my mouth

please quote the time and place that I ever said that!

now I shall compose the answers to the rest of your tirade.

allan continued:

The same 'culture of entitlement' that comes from the imperial appointment powers that the dictator position we have created in the PMO in Canada.

Both of the last two GG's have been TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE persons in the office of GG. I consider the spending madness of Adreinne Clarkson as needing PUNISHMENT. Will it happen? No. Nothing so simple. Michaelle Jean is a 'reformed' separatist - at least she started out alright, but now that the brass ring has been dangled in front of her face she will trundle along in whatever way fits the PMOs design. The continued appoinment is the problem, we are no longer a colony. It is time for us to grow up and find leadership, real leadership from within, I do not care if they are recent immigrants or have had family here since 1700's so long as their position comes from a mandate from the masses - not some farcical (*^%$()*&% ceremony!

Emerson has the exact same mentality that comes from this 'culture of entitlement', you may not think so but consider the actions.

That's a big fat roll of baloney and you know it. If Emerson was disillussioned as a federal Liberal why would he run as one and then switch?

Because he did not 'run as a Liberal' he was parachuted into the riding by his benefactor Mr Dithers (sorry) PMPM (umm) Paul Martin. Emerson was hand-picked as the candidate, then supported in the riding by $$$ and volunteers and staff from OUTSIDE BC. Emerson did not care what party he represented and since he is so good at reading from a script and very convincing when he speaks he was an 'ideal' candidate. As far as what he said during the election, it was all written for him, not by him.

He ran as a Liberal because like a hockey player on a team he worked for the team he was drafted for. They lost, but hey here comes the 'near-winning' team with a new contract for him to continue on the fight. Hey great, same everything, just some new scriptwriters and a different button to put on his lapel. So he goes for it, no big deal he's 'entitled', right?

to be continued...

allan continued (2):

What kind of person would pretend to be something he isn't and then when he gets the prize, tell his constituents to bugger off?

The kind of person who sees parliament and being an MP for what it has become, bad theatre. He is just a poor actor in a low budget, no props play. High school productions are better.

Emerson is playing a part, the way his advisors tell him to play it. Before he switched he had Liberal acting coaches, and I guess they are more experienced at making a corporate suit parachute candidate palatable to you. Now he has Conservative acting coaches and you do not like the performance.

If you are a Vancouver-Kingsway voter, you will get to toss him on his ear (if he even bothers to come out to the eggs and tomatoes that are likely to come his way in the next call to the polls).

If you are a Vancovuer-Kingsway Liberal riding association member, then I first ask, "Why did you let the dictates from the party brass take precedence over your decisions?" Then I say, "Never do it again."

last part coming up...

allan, the final installment:

But I'm not going to join a separatist movement and smash what is probably the greatest experiment in history to bring diverse cultures together into one grand understanding of unity, even if we aren't completely there yet.

These two statements show that you are divided on the issue of Confederation, for if you do not want to pay their way any more, why then would you wish to continue their (Ottawa's) version of the country?

You say no separatist movement, fine.

There are rules within Confederation that would allow each Province to establish a much more arms length association with Ottawa, things like BC's own central bank, a Provincial Police force (both of which BC has had in the past), and others; the list is too long to mention.

Then the stand apart mentality, why does that immediately mean that we, in BC have to suddenly change to something that we have not been? The only major difference would be our association with Ottawa (mostly the immense TAXES that we pay them for little or no return). Why would this mean any change at all with our relations with any of our neighbors? Would the fact that I am in, or from, a newly independant BC make any difference to my friends in Halifax? I think not. But then you may have a different mind about this.

The greatest experiment in bringing together? What together? Canada is an aggreagate of dissimilar and separate communities. Many of which have no contact, nor desire to contact each other. I have lived in every province except Saskatchewan and can attest to the general attitudes around me, at the time, for I understand that people change over time, that the general attitude of distase for anything coming out from Ottawa is the case. They may not have liked everything from their Provincial (or PQ's National Assembly) Legislatures either, but there was a closer connection to those legal bodies that was not in mind or spirit of the conversations about Ottawa or 'the Canada'.

We collectively do not see 'the Canada' unless an international situation is presented to us, such as Vimy or Dieppe or Canada Cup or Olympics or some such thing.

I, personally as I cannot speak for any others but myself, think that BC can 'stand at arms length' from Ottawa and still be part of the original Confederation, but not the assymetrical federalism that it has become.

I recommend a book, "Violence and Prosperity" especially the sections that pertain to the concentration of powers in a central authority and how that concentration takes place.

I also direct you to read more about BC's start in 'the Canada' or Confederation, for I think Helmcken had it right:

"If we are United, or rather absorbed, everything will centralize in Canada, and the whole country will be tributary to Canada ... The number of representatives sent to Ottawa from other places would overwhelm the number sent from British Columbia ... Is it necessary that we have to pay for the intellect of Canada? Is our own not as good? ... I shall not go into the question of Canada being able to defend this colony; I do not believe that Canada is able to defend itself."

Murdock of the Island sez:

Ethics - some people have them, some people don't - most politicians are in the second group.

MrWatkins:

Good point, as much as I hated the sound of the guy with the rumbling bass voice whose picture should be in the dictionary next to the definition of corruption, I love his famous phrase used here in this way. With Emerson and Fortier, Harper showed what a liar he is faster than most PMs. Usually you have to wait until they don't do what they promised. Little Stevie showed his true colors as fast as he was sworn in. Accountablity, Transparency, true representation, GIVE ME A BREAK!

Emerson is just another little fat piggie snuffling up to the trough with the most stuff in it.

If I was a voter of Van-Kingsway I would hate to need some help from my MP as a constituent, has he ever been in the riding since the last election? If I need to speak to him do I need to go to Ottawa, West Van, the British Properties or Point Grey?

rkewen posts:

ah yes,
I have no morals - but I am a very moral person.

--- Voltaire

Murdock, sometimes you seem to get it and then you make a statement that contradicts itself.

The fact is he ran a very partisan campaign as a Liberal, and even after the results were in, still spouted the Liberal line and promised to be a thorn in Stevies butt. I agree that the whole process of "parachute" candidates stinks and won't even work lots of places. Most US Congressional districts would laugh to death a candidate from out of town. Hillary managed to get elected to the Senate from New York, but that is the Senate and New York is a pretty cosmopolitan and unparochial city. She also was a huge national figure and had been technically living in Washington DC the last eight years and they don't have senators because they are not a state.

If he was so disatisfied with the Liberals after eighteen months sitting as one, then he should have declared himself either an independent or Conservative before the election and ran as one. The way he did it is like playing Blackjack and trying to tell the dealer you would rather not take a card after you've busted. But thats gambling and in gambling there are rules and only the house is allowed to cheat.

It was pretty clear from the vote and the resulting furor, which obviously does have legs, (how long has it been?) that the voters of that riding DID NOT WANT TO ELECT A CONSERVATIVE HARPER GOVERNMENT and wouldn't have elected Jesus if he ran there for that party. What part of 19% do you not understand?

Just to clarify, I feel like I'm saying something stupid or dishonest when I say "Conservative Harper government." This is the first Harper deception/lie. This is no more the old Tory party of Dief, Stanfield,or Joe Who than I'm the second coming of Elvis. And it had a Shakespearean birth when Peter "crying in gumboots" McKay, stabbed David Orchard in the back.

This is the corrupt sell out Canada side of the old Reform Party without the good points exemplified by Preston Manning, who looks like a good bet to be perhaps the best premier in Alberta history. Sorry Ralphie, I know you're folksy and flawed and popular, but it ain't hard to eliminate a deficit when you just have to go out in the yard and dig up money. Hell, you don't even have to dig it up, other people pay you (much too little, but that's another story) to dig it up.

In fact - Why was Alberta in debt anyway? Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE buy fancy stuff and loan money, they don't borrow it.

hint: their royalty rates

rkewen, send the prize to G West for being bang on.

murdock, I apologize if I mistook you for another of D Emerson's friends. I guess it was just your seeming loyalty to he and his actions that got me to thinking he had a follower in you.

As to the two GGs, I will agree the post is a bit ridiculous in a so-called democratic country, just as is an unelected senate.

But, let's get real here, the position is ceremonial and little else.

Sure, in theory the GG can dissolve Parliament and keep the colonial politicians in line, but
the position would be dissolved tomorrow if anything like that was contemplated and rightly so.

As for Jean's separatist leanings. She is no more a separatist than any redneck from the west who rants about kicking the frogs out and that is something I've heard far more of during my lifetime.

As for Clarkson's spending habits, the big whine appears to have been over her expenditures for circumpolar relations.

Odd, but our new PM seems to have committed one hell of a whack of money, people and resources to our far north as well.

I think it has something to do with souvernty, which suggests to me that perhaps Clarkson was a bit ahead of her time.

Now, my complaint about helping to subsidize the airline industry is not over politicians getting a free ride as much as all air passengers, including a great many business people whose expenses -paid lifestyles are further subsidized at my expense.

I have no trouble helping to cover the cost of bonafide politicians (those who don't lie to get elected).

If what you say is true and Emerson[B] simply went along with a parachute job, the prepared speeches and all the glitter paid for by local Liberals then it again shows how shallow, crass and untrustworthy that man is.

What's he going to say? 'Oh, I had no choice."

Certainly, had he been honest or at least not been dishonest as to his true intent then his few continuing supporters might be able to get away with that fuzzy reasoning.

But that isn't the case. You know it, he knows it and everyone in Vancouver-Kinngsway now grasps it pretty well.

I am simply amazed that you still push this idea that if voters are dumb enough to vote for a guy they deserve what they get.

As I noted before, the best you can say for Emerson is he pulled a bait-n-switch.

Twist and contort all you want but you are never going to convince anyone what he did was ethical by any stretch of the imagination.

Voters in Vancouver-Kingsway, (I don't live there but will exercise my individual right to criticize his actions and no one needs to pay me one penny), have every right to continue objecting to this political con artist and, from what I can see, many are intent to stay at it until he does the right thing and resigns, ever if it means hanging on until this minority Tory government is sent packing.

I agree, but we're selective in who we ring the bell on. Granted, this was a particularly brazen example of opportunism, so perhaps a more ennervated response from the electorate is warranted. I was never sold on Emerson's stature to begin with, so I'm not offering an apologia for his actions. I just think voters should put their anger in the bank and cash it in on election day. There's no legal or constitutional basis for having a by-election simply because he crossed the floor. Next we're going to see lawsuits by riding associations against their unsuccessful candidates to reclaim campaign expenses because the candidate underperformed on the campaign trail.

More generally, I think playing in big league politics, esp. within the political party nomenclature, is a bit like the Olympics. If you're not cheating or cutting corners, you're inevitably going to come up against someone who is, and they're going to beat you and you'll never get your shot. The ones left standing on the podium at the end of it all are the ones who fought a smart & dirty fight and didn't get caught. It's sad, but I think that's the real state of affairs.

I agree, but we're selective in who we ring the bell on. Granted, this was a particularly brazen example of opportunism, so perhaps a more ennervated response from the electorate is warranted. I was never sold on Emerson's stature to begin with, so I'm not offering an apologia for his actions. I just think voters should put their anger in the bank and cash it in on election day. There's no legal or constitutional basis for having a by-election simply because he crossed the floor. Next we're going to see lawsuits by riding associations against their unsuccessful candidates to reclaim campaign expenses because the candidate underperformed on the campaign trail.

More generally, I think playing in big league politics, esp. within the political party nomenclature, is a bit like the Olympics. If you're not cheating or cutting corners, you're inevitably going to come up against someone who is, and they're going to beat you and you'll never get your shot. The ones left standing on the podium at the end of it all are the ones who fought a smart & dirty fight and didn't get caught. It's sad, but I think that's the real state of affairs.

Mike (Watkins, natch)

In one post, you state:

a little bit later, you state:

Good for you -- you're keeping the ideology of a badge of convenience that virtually every conservative I know wears alive!

Which is it -- have you been "active for years" or are you just "regular folk" who've been sparked into action?

Nice flip flop.

I guess we can't trust any conservatives, even your so called "real" ones.

Wait until Emerson starts bringing money to the riding, then we'll see his constituents with smiles on their faces. His assistant knows how to play the game -- he's a flip flop himself (ask him about the time he spent working leader's tour with Jean Chretien.)

nightbloom
Is this double-post thing of yours a new schtick or just a heavy finger on the post button?
The problem I see is that most political action has to have something around which to coalesce. Without that symbolism it tends to wither and die. Harper is, as predicted, is proceeding carefully and precisely with his program. He is not your average politician. I went on record about that before the election and I am saying it again now. He is a committed ideologue. And he wants to change this country into a very miserable small minded and tight-assed version of the country I, and I suspect you, love. Anything that keeps his compromising and dissembling in front of the electorate is fine with me. I think Emerson can be fashioned into a very fine weapon against these guys and I can think of no better use for him. I hope he retains his status as a member of the nomenklatura. As a useful symbol he has far more value than he ever will as just another government shill.

How can we (Canada) get righteous about how elections are carried out in other countries like Ukraine (orange revolution), Belarus, Haiti, etc., yet we overlook our own deficiencies here at home when we piously speak of 'democracy'? We even send observers to these countries to check on fraudulence in voting, but we don't give a squeak when it comes to our own situation.

Good question Dave. I suggest you email Mr Emerson to see what his rationale is?
He apparently isn't taking calls and won't be at his office.
Good luck finding an email address for him.
You might get a better response by contacting Mr Emerson's boss. Apparently he's the one that does the talking for the whole gang.

allan you are right G West gets the prize, but it was a rhetorical question. I had already answer it above, when I was telling Ralphie not to get too big of a head.

allanyou said,

Are there any? Can you name some?

allan continues to miss my point:

What's he going to say? 'Oh, I had no choice."

Certainly, had he been honest or at least not been dishonest as to his true intent then his few continuing supporters might be able to get away with that fuzzy reasoning.

But that isn't the case. You know it, he knows it and everyone in Vancouver-Kinngsway now grasps it pretty well.

I am simply amazed that you still push this idea that if voters are dumb enough to vote for a guy they deserve what they get.

Emerson was [B]recruited by Mr Dithers. Meaning without Mr Dithers in the PMO, acting like the big cheeze, then Emerson was toast. No way was he gonna toady to the next Liberal leader, so ON ELECTION NIGHT, he knew it was over for him. Whatever blather was coming out of his mouth was left over tape that was supposed to come out before the polls closed. Creative speechwriting for politicoes was never Emersons' strong point, he is better at marshalling the business suits and the bureaucrats than he is in the masses, that is why he has speechwriters. His words until the switch to the conservatives (sic) were written by and for Liberals.

Then the offer...thinking...thinking...(something that takes time for Emerson)...talking to others on the inside (how else would David Berner of CKNW find out this ahead of time)...thinking...*ding* decision. He goes for the brass ring.

Why?

Well the reasons are all over the place on this one an I'll not waste more space on them. Suffice to say it was a better choice than sitting as a fence-post with hair on the opposition benches and flying coach (if at all) since the Liberal coffers are spent.

No fuzzy reasoning at all I see it plain as day and would have thought better of Emerson had he simply put it as the obvious, not the back room sneaking around (and flying out bureaucrats in the dark of the night, at more public expense = have they not heard of teleconference?!?) or dodging the issue. If he had just said, 'I choose this path as it is the best for me.' I think, maybe he would be just snubbed as self-centered (which I see him as) but not as the dishonest and dis-honorable person he has become. This is one albatross I think the Conservatives will eventually cook.

You may continue your amazement, as I still stay that the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway who are railing against his switch do not understand what they mark on a ballot in a Federal Canadian Election. They vote for a person, the party afiliation is there but carries NO LEGAL WEIGHT, as we elect a PERSON and not a PARTY in Canada to sit as a MEMBER of PARLIAMENT.

Get it?

One more time:
You do not mark a party name and let them choose someone.
You do not select from a chosen party list.
You do not elect a party leader (that serves some other riding in Canada).
You do elect a single person, whose name appears on the ballot.

If this seems as though I am preaching to you, I appologize, but you keep missing that central point.

Once elected, under our system, the MP has no direct responsibility to the voters that put him there. This is why the power to put a name on the ballot is more valuable than the vote itself, since with the right branding (it would seem in Vancouver-Kingsway in '06) a dead dog with the liberal name next to it on the ballot could be elected.

So yes if the voter does not take the time to learn about the process, the person - not the party - that they will vote for on election day, then they GET WHAT THEY DESIRED.

Of course, murdock, be that as it may...we all know how, and why, you feel that way. In addition, we know where it inevitably takes your thinking. But, one takes the little things fate hands out and uses them as best one can. There are others, me among them, who are less concerned about the niceties of electoral reform in the Canadian context or the prospect of one or another kind of national fragmentation. Those individuals are concerned with exposing the compromised nature of Mr. Harper's enterprise, illustrating what an opportunist he actually is and convincing others that the Prime Minister's program is not what it seems to be. In short that he, and his mute gang of fellow travellers have the intention of destroying many of the qualities that this country has always stood for (in my mind at least) and replacing those qualities with a republican and neoconservative vision that is truly frightful and compromised by its association with religious fundamentalism.
So, I’d enlist your support in tilting against Harper’s windmills, quixotic though the exercise may seem to some, even if you don’t agree with the direction it may take you.

Huge difference between Stronach and Emerson is that the former actually sat as a neo-con for a year before Stevey Blunder made it impossible for her to continue as a trained seal in his party .
Harper wanted to vote down the Liberal budget and out law gay marriage both positions of which Ms.Stronach found to be anathema to her .
Ms.Stronach was re-elected with a huge majority in the last election.
Guaranteed Emerson will be abjectly humiliated in the next election if he lasts that long .

Who wants to bet on whether or not Emerson even runs next time, unless he parachutes into an Alberta riding or other "safe" neo-con riding. It's probably time for him to change bibs and snuffle up to the corporate trough. For a guy like him cabinet minister pay and perks is like charity work.

Rkewen mirrors my thoughts exactly .
I don't believe it would be worth the fall out for Emerson to run in that riding again as it is a foregone conclusion he would probably draw only 8%, of the vote .
Fact is ,is that all Canadians are well aware of this stupid situation and it is inevitable that it will cost the neo-cons a lot of seats .
Their dream of a majority is firmly rooted in group delusion .
I'll take the bet that Emerson runs in Alberta the only safe place for a moron like him .

Something that hasn't been mentioned here, or at least that I've noticed is the Tory backbenchers. I'm sure there's some of them who felt and still feel somewhat slapped in the face that their great Leader felt he had to reach across the aisle before the House even opened. I know if I had been active in Reform back in the day or a real Tory before the shotgun wedding I would be feeling underappreciated. I mean after all those years and Stevie picks a guy that goes to bed a Liberal and wakes up a Conservative?

Of course then there's Fortier the gift from Montreal who couldn't be bothered to run for office this time. I guess that may have something to do with the fact that the two times he did run he got his ass handed to him in a sack. Oh, did I mention that he's a lawyer?

Over on the thread regarding the Raid on the Legislature bob the cat posted this link.

http://www.emersoncampaign.ca/

There is some good material there well worth a visit.

In particular there is a letter from a former PC MP from Niagra Falls regarding Emerson's approach to the softwood lumber negotiations.
and then there's "Canadian Unitarian Council's letter to PM" which really makes the point clearly and gracefully.

Just like millionaire Jack and equally as out of touch. Another socialist/conservative fossil. Vancouver Kingsway will never elect a socialist. Asians have too much first hand experience.

Murdock, if you were to go back into the archives on thefirst article about Emerson's cheap trick you'd see I had agreed with some who said his actions aren't illegal.

That, frankly, means diddly squat to me. He ripped his constituents off. Legal is simply a term legal beagles use to make income.

It has very little to do with the real impact on people of actions that are not right.

That is referred to as wrong, quite a simple concept itself until you let a lawyer try to make sense of it.

No, I'll stick to the language of the street. He ripped the people off and ought to pay for the wrong he did.

Remember politics is about perception and if you act in a way that colours the perception you get to wear it, like it or not. Legal isn't even a factor.

As for your point. David Emerson ran for election in Vancouver-Kingsay as a Liberal. Twist and turn that fact all you want, but the people voted for David Emerson the Liberal, not David Emerson the Conservative or David Emerson the independant.

David Emerson had the option to run as any of those later two. He opted not to. That was after sitting as a Liberal MP almost two years and not once during that time did he stand up, as other Liberals did and say Paul Martin's a jerk.

I think I speak for a majority of Canadians when I say that if you run as something for election voters have every right to anticipate you'll abide by your own promise.

That you are of teh school that claims the only thing that counts is getting elected is your business and your right, but please don't try to tell the rest of us we are a bunch of schmucks for believing people, even politicians, are accountable.

Should there ever be an effort at true electoral reform in Canada, I'd urge you to make the points you try here. They are precisely the type of cynical behaviour
I feel ought to be banished.

Oh working man, good to read you are still around.

Rumour was that you had finally found employment.

G West, I think you may have something there - Emerson likely would be fulfilling his promise to be "harper's worst nightmare" by staying as the big hairy mole virtually screaming "I epitomize the irony of a new accountable gov't under this circus group who are as transparent as steven's gut".
In regards to the million socialists out there - they must be doing something right if they find a way of making social conscienciousness a lucrative hobby. Certainly preferable to millionaire opportunists by far.

allan,

Then you are part of the majority of Canadians that are deluding themselves.

I'd rather have millionaire opportunists anyday. At least they spin off jobs and money. A socialist is a sponge.

I sent an e-mail to Emerson's boss over aq week ago. The only response so far is thank you for the e-mail.

Yeah Emerson talks of best serving his constituents, yet will not meet with them, or even return a letter!

Nevertheless, keep after him!

murdock, you keep outdoing yourself in your cynicism, something we lefties are supposed to wallow in.

I'm afraid it's you who doesn't get it. We have been discussing the antics of David Emerson the politician, the guy who promised this and that, but who then crapped all over the good people of Vancouver-Kingsway.

You appear to be stuck in trying to defend a typical corporate business practice which is based on one criteria, whatever it takes to advance oneself, which I guess can now be referred to as Emersonian ethics.

Sorry, but I was never deluded by David Emerson or any of his ilk.

That residents in Vancouver-Kingsway bought his story and gave him their support as a Liberal MP only to see Emerson become a turncoat in record time reflects badly on him rather than the voters who did their duty.

Your continued effort to try to tar voters with some of the slimey stuff Emerson leaves in his wake says more about your own attitude about politics than anything.

That took about a minute, btw.

Now email each and every one. Ask for a personal response.

Emerson is not the exception, he is the rule.

By contrast, email James Moore -- he's always responded, although it may have taken some time.

This does not make Emerson a bad parliamentarian; this makes him a typical parliamentarian.

darcy
That's just his (and every member of parliament's) standard govt issue email;
even so, it wouldn't surprise me, after the little kerfuffle a week or so ago raised by the member from Okanagan-Shuswap Colin Mayes, that everything is being vetted through the PMO.

allan correctly observes:

what? that I consider polyticks to be defined as:

poly = many
ticks = bloodsuckers

therefore polyticks is manybloodsuckers?

if this is what you say I observe, then yes we agree.

as far as only leftists wallowing in anything I say that left-right, up-down, pink-blue, or whatever other definitions you try to label as single elements of how our society, or parts of it, view the current debate/world is outdated.

I am neither left nor right, nor tory nor grit, nor revolutionary nor communist.

I am for a reasonable debate, based on facts.
I am for a separation of provincial-federal responsibilities, as based on the original confederation.
I am for a holding accountable the persons in government, not possible with the bait-and-switch methods of party polyticks.
I am for the head of state having a mandate from the masses, not an appointment.
I am for a senate that is balanced by regions (meaning something like 3 for each Province/Territory) and that these persons, in the Senate, have the same holding accountable as the legislators that they are watching over.
I am for the election of Judges, both at lower and higher levels in our system, because the madness of appointments have made a real mess of things.

This does not mean I want to 'join the US', nor do I only want the same system here. I want to see respectable, mindful checks and balances BUILT INTO the system.

An old saying says that if it aint broke don't fix it.

I say that 'it' is broke. Time to fix 'it'.

more from allan,

if this is true then the tactics of the guttersnipe Darth Cretinous, in gaining the throne of Canada should be counted as EXACTLY THE SAME as your definition of Emersonian ethics.

moreover Emersons' great benefactor is the first person to oust a sitting PM from his seat via some very Emersonian ethic-based tactics. So therefore Mr Dithers is also in the same camp, not surprising as it takes a dog to spot a dog.

you are continuing to try and paint me as some sort of supporter of this guy, Emerson.

I am not.

I blame Mr Dithers for recruiting him.
I blame the Liberal riding association for Vancovuer-Kingsway for being 'in the pay' of other interests for accepting him as their candidate - TWICE!
I blame the uninformed and deluded voters of Vancouver-Kingsway for electing him - TWICE!
I blame Harper for using the situation to advance his party plans.
I blame the rules and system, that they are all trapped in, for creating the situation in the first place.

further revelations from allan,

You have continued to miss what I have said from the start.

Emerson did not write any of the material he read out aloud. He is no better than an actor in a bad stage play, he read what was prepared for him by others. He still is now. So whatever he 'promised' you took it hook, line and sinker. That is your fault not mine.

So far Emerson has not 'crapped on' anybody. He has had nothing bad to say about the voters in Vancovuer-Kingsway, with either Liberal or Conservative speechwriters. His actions in the next few months will speak for him - in the end I think he has an impossible job, with no hope for real results on the softwood file (since he cannot control the really important part the US lobbyists).

In the end, the decision to 'go after' a Liberal seat was the critical part of this entire exercise. Emerson was likely only one of many 'possibles' that the Conservatives 'felt out' in the days after the election. He was willing to 'jump', so what?

Others have done this before, others will again in the future, without some real changes in our system; all the hot air in the world will not make one little bit of difference.

Changes of a major nature come about only one way quickly, and the Canadian way is not one of doing anything quickly.

murdock, when you are prepared to argue from a rational point of view I'll consider getting back into this discussion with you.

You took a silly position early on this and now don't know how to get yourself out of it.

Have a good one.

allan, when you stop putting words in others mouths and frame your arguments in intelligent ways I may respond to your comments.

G-West

You didn't specify. So now you're saying you should have his...what...his Telus address? His Shaw address?

Sorry. Once he leaves public life, he does have a right to privacy.

Don't complain about not having his email address, when you do in fact have it.

We don't have your email address.

That's not Emerson's fault. Harper is shutting down the podium, not little Davey as his friends call him.

Darcy....

I agree with you. Unfortunately, in our society, the politicians can say anything to get elected and once they're in, they can do anything until the next election.

The pre-election campaign donations were under a false pretense but I don't believe even a court of law would or could uphold recovery action.

darcy.mcgee
You're interpreting what I've written far too literally. Yesterday or the day before Emerson actually took to the microphone for a few minutes on CBC 690. He said then, in response to the host's direct question, that he would not be responding to his constituents’ questions about their concerns respecting his behavior and his continuing impersonation of someone they chose to be their MP

The email stuff is just icing, has nothing to do with the real issue - didn't mean to give you the wrong impression - I thought you realized the underlying material which made the email question redundant.

My point was that Emerson does have another email address which he can use, with his friends and co-conspirators, that is not available to the great unwashed. I'm sure if you send a nominally inoffensive question to the email account you submitted that there is a chance, in the fullness of time, that a functionary in his office may reply or even mail you a brochure.
It has nothing to do with the question we’ve been addressing, I’m sure you’ll agree.

The real Emerson problem is that his actions and that of the PM and his Political party (oh how partisan!)have dishonoured Canadian democracy.

And in the House of Commons, Emerson looks the fool; saying how he is going to serve his constituents better being in goverment and sitting as a Cabinet Minister; when he will not even meet a constituent of Vancouver-Kingsway!

I look forward to more assinine displays of partisan rhetoric when the dishonourable Emerson speaks to the House!

Any partisan fools who support Emerson I have a proposal, lets spice things up a little.

Lets train and dispatch the most radical evangelical , right wing nuts (hard on crime , pro war, anti women's rights, death penalty BUSH boot licks we can find) to run in all valley and Okanogan ridings for the fed conservative nominations, run for nominations in safe ridings all over the province.

We can probably win a couple, once we get those conservatives elected in a pretty safe vote then we have some fun. We will note every issue with the NDP and disregard the silly votes who supported us. Hey their just lucky to have us, they can vote us out in a few years.

Guess what Stuart?

You and others could do just that, any who oppose you after the fact would have no leg to stand on; just like the current electors in Vancouver-Kingsway.

Now unless you can convince the local riding associations that you are 'bone-fide' what you say you are, then you may find the convincing harder, since those ridings are not likely to accept a parachute candidate.

Unlike the Liberals, where you can buy delegates to the leadership race, own the back room and 'appoint' candidates at will - the current Conservatives are less beholden to the center to the authority.

This de-centralization is both the strength and source of weakness in the Conservative Party structure. For the decision to appoint a senator and pluck out Emerson will leave some bad feelings in the hearts of the riding associations of Conservative MPs seen as 'more deserving' the cabinet posts.

Good luck with the deception - I await the unmaskings.

Not so sure that's actually the case. For the moment they've all lost their voices.

"You and others could do just that, any who oppose you after the fact would have no leg to stand on"

Just ethical legs.

I saw Emer$on$ performance televised from the hill and if this guy is considered to be intelligent,there is no hope for the POLITICAL ETHOS, decent Canadians are waiting for,because the man is a DOLT.
Anyone,sticking up for Emer$on$ behaviour ,is a DOLT...and HARPER is right at the front of the line.

But Harper is $pending all that money and diddling the economy,so i guess,everything is all right...eh

Even more ridiculous than Emerson's whining about being more valuable in government than out, is Killian's absurd contention that these morally deranged people are merely guilty of poor judgement. They're evil, Crawford. Grow up, and stop sucking up and have a little courage!

Maybe Emerson will turn out to have a use. He had already shown an off hand readiness to serve up what the parasites want when he was Min. of Industry and Trade for the Liberals.

The public demand for a do not call list he managed to turn into a do not call (NOT) list so that now we have the CRTC asking us all to comment on the result. It is now a list of those who are exempt from the do not call list, like political parties, newspapers, pollsters,anyone who has a prior "relationship" to you (ever give your phone number to a commercial outfit? You just entered a "relationship").

So now your inability to use your phone from 4 to 7pm or so each day for at least 5 days the week will be...what shall we say, embedded? They own you now, better run to your computer, if you can navigate the spam.

And now the hints given out suggest he is about to jump into the biggest give away in history (after the CPR scam) about to make some deal with the US Godzilla on softwood. The government that gave it all away on this place we are so eager about, aff-something stan... will now give away most of the remaining ilnventory, the money for the trees, and the trees.

So Emerson will become the most important person in this short lived Conservative government, not their leader (who is busy hiding) but their LCD. Their Lowest Common Denominator.

Now that politics and indeed government is said be in decline, and the occupants of posts are getting as indifferent as $10 "sex trade workers" as the phrase goes today, we will need some new frame of reference to signal discussion by abbreviations.

Well, we don't have the fun of watching to see McKay leering over the shoulder of Harper anhy more. The election bust him out of that and McKay was sent to the Maritimes there to confine himself to predigested press releases. Alas Harper did not like the light of day so he has warned off the media, his staff, and his party while he searches for a quiet spot to plan nasty reactionary stuff for us. We need a new frame. I nominate Emerson the political thug as LCD of this government.

It is not clear that he will be with us long. Given his economy of motion he is likely to jump to a job in forest industry as soon as he has given them the corporations the deal and the rest of us the boot. Really does great things though , in the way of clarifying what our politics is all about, doesn't it.
Now all we need is a Liberal LCD, a brand new one, after which we shall be well equipped to spin off any political news and can quickly turn to the sports page.

But Harper is $pending all that money and diddling the economy,so i guess,everything is all right...eh

A week has passed and i have seen no improvement,whatsoever,in Emer$on$ performance

and it seems the only people picking up on the Grand Poohbah Of Quick Change are the comedians and political commentators who need fodder for the masses.

That suits me fine,KEEP THAT CREEP IN THE SIGHTS,we need to show people that CRONYISM is alive and well in Canadian politics.

AND WHEN HARPER SAYS THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE,LOOK AT WHO WILL BENEFIT...it aint you and me !

I am not surprised that so called LEFT is spending money to discredit escapees from their camp. Deserters and opponents of the RREDS & PINKS are usually shot in a back of the head or sent to Gulag. LEFT has plenty of money for dirty tricks. Remember when Moe Sihota (or Sahota?) was trying to embarass Social Credit Attorney General Bud Smith. NDP was intercepting his private conversation on the cell phone. That operation at that time must have cost about $200,000 dollars to overhear for weeks, both sides of the conversation transmitted on different frequencies. Equipment came probably with some private detectives from US. Bud Smith resigned but was exonerated by special investigator from Alberta Government. Nobody was punished for spying on the public official, recording private conversations and trying to blackmail Attorney General to stop investigations on criminal activities of Mr. Sihota and his father. They defrauded their clients of large sums of money, acting as "their lawyers" and advisors.