sdgreen kindly forgets that the NDP actually left the province in a good financial state. A extermely dishonest media campaign by the Campbell boys and "have you had enough yet" Kevin (BS) Falcon and abetted by a willing media, gave the impression that the NDP were shovelling the money off the back of a truck. Absolutely wrong. What defeated the NDP was three completely inept leaders, Harcourt, Clark, and now Liberal health minister Dosanj.

What killed the eccomomy was the massive tax cuts Campbell & Co. and cutting wages of the medical unions.

The ecconomy is only good for a small sector of the population. It is the northern energy and illegal drug production that's keeping BC afloat. The rising house prices are merely the result of much 'dirty' money being cleaned, which inturn makes the statistics look good.

As for Sherry Charlie, her death can be laid right at the dorr of the people hating Campbell, who takes a Victorian look at the poor, they deserve to die because they are poor.

History will look at the Campbell era with abhorance.

sdgreen continues the Big Lie spread by the Liberals. My understanding is that an independant audit of the books showed that the NDP left the incoming gov't a billion and a half in the Black.
Grumpy is right- but I'd go further: I'd have Gordon Campbell charged as an accessory to murder.

Read what I wrote about the behind of the scenes of corporations under the "Shed a Tear for Mrs.Gretzky" column.

It is astonishing that some poor, misguided people still support this crime wave that goes on under the name of the "economy".

The official, textbook definition of economics is: "The science for the management and distribution of scarce resources".

Under the neoclassical market economy theory the concept "distribution" has become "Humanity turned into pigs fighting at the trough for scraps thrown to them by a self appointed, corporate ruling class". Legalized by governments.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

REGARDLESS of COLOUR or STRIPE all POLITICIANS should be putting their heads together to solve the problems that the CHILDRENS MINISTRY has constantly faced...

THESE ARE CHILDREN DIEING IN A SOCIETY THAT HAS THE RESOURCES.............

UNFORTUNATELY...IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ANYONE REALLY WANT'S TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.........

THE OPPORTUNISTS JUST MILK THE UNFORTUNATE SITUATIONS...AND THERE ARE OPPORTUNISTS GALORE THROUGHOUT THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM...

HELP THE CHILDREN...NOT YOURSELVES !!!

One thing which wasn't mention was how the private schools will get an additional 10 percent increase over the next 3 years. Public schools are going to see a 2.5 % increase over the same 3 years. We can see where this is going!
Currently, 1 in 10 students are going to private schools and these schools are getting 30 to 50 percent funding. The amount of money spent on these schools is currently around 180 million dollars per annum. The liberals would be more than happy if every BC'er sent their children to private school - why spend 7000 dollars per student when you can spend 3500 dollars or less. They don't care about public school. Most of the rich and powerful send their own spawn to private prep. schools anyways.

I think that we shouldn't spend a single penny of public money on private school.

Liberal policy rigidly follows the tenets of neoclassical economics advocated by the Fraser Inst. and taught in our universities, from the writings of people like Milton Friedman.

Read Friedman's " Free to Choose" and you'll find all past, present and future policy decisions of the BCLibs...... timorously opposed by the NDP, not daring to stray from the "middle of the road".

Ed Deak.

Ironic the infamous, cynical stunt of gordo and falcon shovelling money from the back of a truck!!!
Now imagine the same two guys shovelling bullsh!t from the back of a truck for the last 5 years!

Grumpy that is one of the most unbelievably idiotic statements I have ever read!! Do you honestly think that? Did you live in BC in through the '90's? At the end of the '90's?

Thankfully people with your fantasyland viewpoint are only a whiny minority. Wake up and stop be suching a NDP victim.

Hey relayer, the NDP got that money as a transfer payment from the feds for turning BC into a have not province.

If that's what you and the NDP call "a good financial state" or "in the black", then it's no wonder BC was in the tank in '99. But I guess that's sort of the NDP mantra - why try when you can have someone else with more give it to you for free?

'What Schreck leaves out is the fact that the NDP left the Province with a massive structural deficit in 2001. Additionally, the business community was in a downturn as a result of NDP policies.'
schreck, or is this bit of drivel from tieleman, leaves out beaucoup de facts to suit his blathering needs. even more cliches than usual in this piece of shite.

'Ironic the infamous, cynical stunt of gordo and falcon shovelling money from the back of a truck!!!'
jester; the difference this time is that there's actually some money to shovel. the idiot ndp's brilliant financial strategy was to borrow more, and more, and more, and more, and...

The article is about a Liberal budget, you know, in the year 2006? The record up for discussion is the Liberal one.

Shreck rightly points out that in the last mini budget, it was tax cuts for corporations before restoring any funds to the children's Ministry. There isn't a political observer in the province who doesn't see this last budget as an admission that the Lib's f***d up this ministry.

You guys can keep talking about the NDP and the 90's, but all the spin in the world isn't going to change that fact the Liberal's puts the corps before the kids.

More brilliance from people who can't read a financial statement.

The NDP left the province with two balanced budgets. Finances were in the black.

I know BC Stats is not as good a source as Mikey Campbell and the Vancouver Sun or the accountants at the Province but the fact is it was Campbell that was bailed out by federal transfers. More money than his surpluses. Far more money than the NDP were given back in the mid 90's during Martin's cuts.

Yeah Frank, anyone can make a budget balanced and in the black when they inflate forestry revenues to create the number they want. That's why they were fudget-budgets.

And verso, all the spin in the world isn't going to change the fact that the NDP f***d up this province, and the economy where it is now due to the direction it's being taken by the BC Liberals, NOT the NDP.

The fact remains that no matter what Campbell does you in here will crticize. All you need to do is state Campbell is bad mixed with some ideological babble and your done. No analysis, just rhetoric. Not all that surprising.

poindexter, I rather have the 1990's when people spent money in my store. rather than the Campbell era when spending stopped!

The hot-on-fire ecconomy myth is based on our resources being sold at extremely high rates. The housing market, where black money (drug money, is being spent on housing.

The 1990's were great, compared to the morass of todays ecconomic nonsense!

Hey you guys, the Auditor General did the books, the same guy Campbell later reduced his budget so he couldn't look at Liberal boondogles like RAV or Gateway or the failed PPP experiment.

Gee Grumpy, that's funny because I personally know of at least ten people, including myself, who have built new houses since 2002 - and none of that money came from drugs. Where do you come up with this ridiculous stuff? Better head back to fantasyland buddy!

Part of economic success is knowing what to do when things are good and reacting appropriately, as we've seen the Liberals do. The NDP strategy would be to take any extra revenue and give it to public sector unions.

And your accounting degree comes from where? I guess the auditors must have been 7-11 clerks not to have caught that.

Uh-huh and the world demand for commodities has had no effect. Neither has the Bank of Canada's low interest rates and neither has the 6 billion plus in increased federal transfers.

Pretty much sums up how the NDP was and is treated. No analysis, no facts, just rhetoric.

The comment about Shreck not talking about structural defecit is simple BS. There were two budgets back to back before Gordo's New Era gang took over. Go check Hansard and the auditor generals reports.

It was a very large tax cut, that even the far right folks didn't expect, that caused a defecit. It was a great excuse to shut dpown hospital's, schools court houses and break a lot of contracts that are supposedly legally binding.

When the NDP got mega bucks in for sales of Hydro Gordo went ballistic. when the present government gets massive amounts of money for selling oil and gas, well that's good governing. If they didn't to pay down part of the debt, the previous government were really awful. When the present gang doesn't reduce the defecit. Hey good strategy. Folks with blinkers on who support the right wing no matter what simple arn't prepared to listen to the truth. As I recall the writer of this article has a PHD is Economics so must have a greater understanding of that field than those of us who just like to pick sides. I go for the numbers , verified by the auditor general. the NDP left two balanced budgets in a row, and the second one was well over a billion dollars.

The writer is correect, some of the bitchers here are simply wrong.

as usual IDEOLOGIES take precedence over whether the ALLOTTED MONIES are really going to help...

AND INSTEAD OF PLAYING THE NUMBERS GAME...WHY NOT STATE WHAT YOUR PARTIES SHOULD ,NOT COULD ,BE DOING?

as a MIDDLE OF THE ROAD voter i see more waste in your respective govts.cause i don't get BLINDED by the political rhetoric...BUT I SURE HEAR THE BULLSH!T FLOWING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MEANWHILE KIDS ARE DIEING...AND WE ARE ALL AT FAULT !

That's because ideology decides where the money goes. Its why we have elections.

Perhaps one day none of us will have ideologies and we'll all live in caves.

The "middle" IS an ideology.

pondexter, where the hell you think the billions in drug money is going? Oh yes, all the baddies are in Miami or Las Vegas to keep CSI busy.

Cash is the name of game in the building industry, cash has no morals. Even the bureaucrats blushingly admit that the ecconomy in BC is kept bouyant with drug money.

The casino's are just one way to launder money, building houses is another.

What fantasyland do you live in? Oh yes Gordo & Co. are the great humanitarians who saved BC.

Not.

I never said the NDP were wonderful, on the contrary, I think they were idiots, but they left the province in the black. It was Campbell's masive tax cuts that screwed us and in the end, murdered Sherry Charlie.

If you can't live with that too bad.

I would suggest that sdgreen and the other folks who support the Liberals might want to read an excellent article posted by Will McMartin in May 2005 that pretty much dispells the myth of the "structural deficit."
While I agree that some of the NDP policies of the previous administration left me scratching my head, the current administration has me wondering what type of economics they are using.
It seems as Understandme is alluding to is that we, as a society, are placing dollars ahead of compasssion and common sense.
When a child, under the care of the government (of any stripe) dies under tragic and avoidable circumstances that is a tragedy. You cannot place dollars on something like that. We still haven't had even an apology to the family from the minister at the time, Gordon Hogg (apparently his teflon coated and this hasn't stuck to him yet).
This particular government in Victoria has been very successful at hiding behind agencies and not taking reponsibility for its' actions. It is always easier to say: Well, we fund the Schools Boards, the Health Boards and they make the allocation based on their budget allocations. What a crock, the dollars all come from the same source. As is often said "follow the dollars"; well in this case follow the dollars all the way to Victoria.

Toot toot! Coinductor Grumpy is taking us on a trip to fantasyland! All abbooooooaaard!!!!

The present so called "booming economy" is based on the fraudulent accounting system used by neoclassical economists and the present inflation caused by the unlimited money creation by the deregulated banks.

I just noticed that my VISA credit limit has been extended to $19,000. My wife's, with another bank, is $11,000. which, according to my old fashioned calculation is $30,000. We also have credit at our CU, plus on all our credit cards, so the total must be between $40 to 50,000.

Of course, we don't need a fraction of this, but many people are up to the limit on all their credit cards and draft limits, especially in the USA, reaching over $40. trillion. All this funny money went into the so called "booming economy", now on the verge of a major collapse by objective observers, who are not caught up in the religion of the " capitalist market economy".

If Iran and Venezuela manage to switch their oil sales into Euros and the Iranian oil bourse based on gold in March, the US dollar will be worth virtually nothing with ours following the collapse, based on fraudulent theories, praised by some unfortunates on this list as some kind of an economic miracle created by Campbell.

Good luck. Look out for what will happen in the cities and armed gangs looking for food in the rural areas.

The 2010 Winter Olympics? I give them a 25% chance for taking place, with BC being bankrupted in the process.

Ed Deak.

the "middle" is an ideology !

geeze thanks EINSTIEN !I guess i didn't learn everything i needed at university all them years ago....

YOU THINK YOU ARE TALKING TO SOMEONE BENEATH YOUR STATION ???

that i can't point to HUMPTY DUMPTY and say we gotta sit on the fence like our policies DICTATE......means........there are only two parties..........TWO IDEOLOGIES....

and with deciding over the BEST OF TWO EVILS...it really makes DECENT PEOPLE PUKE !

WHY DO YOU THINK THE people STAY AWAY FROM THE POLLS WHEN IT'S TIME TO VOTE...

PRETTY TELLING I WOULD SAY !

and that CHILDREN die ,while politicians of all ideologies get fat...........is REPUGNANT and a sin against HUMANITY................

Look pinhead, if you want a middle party, create one. If you think there's millions of voters out there who are in-between the NDP and the Liberals then you'll be premier in 3 years.

Otherwise, you're just one more guy who arrogantly thinks he's above it all.

Because getting off their asses long enough to mark an "X" is too big a chore.

Blame those who don't care enough to even vote.

I can say that in my town good, blue-collar resource based jobs have largely dispaeared to be replaced with short-term contracts, strip-mall and service industry jobs and yes, a construction frenzy building expensive houses and condo's in response to the real-estate craze. So there are a lot more fancy cars suddenly in my town, with people I don't know and also a lot, A LOT, of people living in the forests all over town.
The middle socio-economic demographic, however, seems to have been sucked right out of town.
I don't think that this is a good or sustainable model for wealth distribution in a properly functioning democratic society.
A brutal police state, on the other hand, where a small, corrupt ruling elite control everthing-well thats another story isn't it?

Excellent points, Frank, and Ed, as usual. I'm not up to speed on government timelines of which governments have been in power and who has ran up red and black ink in this province over, say, the last 20 years.

If you're still online, can you provide a website link that shed some light on what stats we don't know, so that history can provide a clearer picture and keep ideological arguements down to a dull roar? Thanks, buddy.

Frank: And transfer payments are worth mentioning. Not all provinces are treated equally. There are tussles between government ideologies between Feds and Provinces that people aren't factoring in, here. Any stat links you know of that shed light on these issues?

Fiat Lux:
That's why Bush is such a war hawk. He's not only going to war to try to prevent this from happening, but he's running up red ink that will sewer the U.S. dollar all on its own to begin with, with nothing left over for social programs after he's gone.

The bad guys are the ones who assasinate presidents. I guess that's why Bush is still alive.

HEY FRANKIE !

I SEE YOU GOT YOU LIPS PURSED RIGHT AROUND THE PARTY ANUS...READY TO SUCK UP ANYTHING THAT COMES YOUR WAY !!!

typical ,SELFISH,EGOTISTIC,SELF INVOLVED PARASITE!

BLAMING ALL BUT YOURSELF...

the poor ...DESERVE TO BE POOR ...EH FRANKIE???

the DISABLED...DESRVE TO BE DISABLED...EH FRANKIE???

the SINGLE MOTHERS....DESERVE TO BE SINGLE..EH FRANKIE ???

the OLD VETRAN DESRVES TO BE SCREWED...EH FRANKIE???

the ELDERLY SHOULD HAVE THEIR MEDICATIONS CUT BACK...EH FRANKIE ???

and when you get old and infirm FRANKIE...I HOPE YOUR KIDS GROW UP THINKING LIKE YOU...THEN AGAIN YOUR'E SUCH A SWEET GUY !!! I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK WHAT WOULD EVER COUPLE WITH YOU AND PRODUCE OFFSPRING !!!

oh ! oh ! oh !...hey maybe your sister!

then ya kin breed some more like you .
CLEAN ...PERFECT BLOODLINES...HEIL FRANKIE !

Reading isn't your strong suit is it? Maybe I need to capitalize more.

If you think all those people are worth helping, and they are, then you and all the other electoral freeloaders in this province can get off your asses and down to the polls.

I have far more respect for Campbell supporters than I do for the self-righteous nauseating lament of the politically clueless.

brain, I'll dig up those links again. Its an old argument from the last provincial election. Some on the right prefer to get their stats from the premier's brother, everyone else is biased doncha know.

Catfight catfight

Carole Taylor will wipe the floor with Carole James or Jennie...what's her name?

The NDP queens seem reluctant to engage.....

what's the problem?

HEY FRANK !

I did VOTE...

had a good stiff drink..held my nose and VOTED !

I NEVER MISS A CHANCE TO BE HEARD FRANKIE !!!

or haven't you noticed ??? and thanks for your help with AIRING the concerns of those of us who want something done about THE FAMILIES AND CHILDRENS MINISTRY !!!

did I step on your toes too much during this dance ???

i'm a wee bit pissed we lost ta RUSSIA ! my mind was a little preoccupied !!!but...back to the kids ...and i'm a little disgusted in myself that i can't find the time to do MORE .

i guess i will just have to keep BITCHIN...WHEN I CAN !

ciao !

Understandme, glad to hear you voted. Even voting for Campbell is better than apathy.

As for the game, I wasn't near a tv. Wasn't even on the radio.

I think I'll barf if I have to hear one more whiny sound bite from one of those two NDP wrenches, ugh.

Child protection services were cut by $25.6 million between 2001 and 2002 and we don't know precisely how much more they were cut in the four years since then; it looks like $100 million over three years doesn't begin to equal more than $128 million in cumulative cuts over the five years since 2001.

Excellent analysis by David Schreck...hitting some crucial points above that were largely ignored by the MSM. With Global's coverage not having even one member of the Opposition commenting on the budget and Keith Baldrey spouting the Campbell line and calling Carole Taylor, "a cautious, prudent finance minister".

You gotta be kidding... this finance minister is certainly not cautious or prudent when it comes to corporate tax cuts.... not cautious or prudent when it comes to the mounting debt (read Olympics and ever-mounting cost over-runs)... and not cautious or prudent when it comes to buying a pair of shoes...coyly trying to pretend she doesn't know how much they cost which really makes a minister of finance minister look incredibly stupid or sly...as well as insensitive enough to wear them on "budget" day.

I want to add one more thing, which I am outraged about along with a lot of other people...and that is the death of the elderly woman in the Kootenays who was moved out of town when she was desperately ill.

This is not such a rare occurence as the Health Ministry and its cruel facilitators, the health authorities would like you to believe. This is happening all over this province. Our local paper has had headlines over the last few years about the elderly being moved out of town because of bed shortages, married couples of long-standing being separated and deaths occurring. This is happening all over this province..with a mainstream media not doing it job in this regard. The Tyee has run some of the best articles in this regard on the complex issue of senior care.

Assisted living is different than complex care. This government has decimated complex care through its cutting of acute care beds and through its cutting of medical and home support staff. Assisted living only addresses a certain percentage of the elderly population...those who are largely independent...it fails to address those who need more care and monitoring. Even assisted living is not being built at levels even close to what was promised...and when it is delivered it is often delivered at the expense of the public system. The privatization of assisted living is being subsidized by our public tax dollars to the detriment of our public health system.

The Campbell government is in the process of closing more senior care residences in this province to facilitate the privatization of senior care largely, because, as with children in care, they can get away with it... as both these groups need voices to speak up for them.

This is a disgusting way to treat human beings... and reflects the cruel reign of money values over human values.

This province is not being looked at in a 360 degree over-view...the big picture emerging. These piecemeal accounts that leak through now and then when linked together are painting a really disturbing picture. Time to pay attention and to use your voice ...while you still have one.

Who cares how much her f*$^%ing shoes cost?!?! She bought them, IT DOESN"T MATTER!

Just shows you how little the opposition has to whine about, the big story is on her shoes?

Lynn somehow I doubt that there is anything associated with the current gov't that doesn't "outrage" you.

The problem is that we don't have a current government.

Wealth can not be created, only taken. A simple fact known to ruling classes through recorded history. This is why we have constant wars, colonization attempts, environmental destruction and upheavals.

What we have are a group of harebrained ideologues and paid off pimps who take their orders from a ruling sector of predators through the PR hacks of advertising agencies like the Fraser Institute, billed as "respected conservative economic think tanks".

Their screwball ideological system is based on faith in the power of artificial money and so called competition, sold as "wealth creation", in reality self destruction, because all systems based on faith and competition have relatively short lifespans.

Some of you people should try to learn history, where such things have been documented for thousands of years.

Ed Deak.

Ed, don't you have any other ideas. The monetary and banking system works for most of us just like it has for thousands of years and venturing a guess, will for thousands more.

Value in providing goods and services can be created and is done so every day as the products we use pass from raw materials to finished goods through a variety of distribution channels.

To see every article turn into a posting war where the same tired statements are just regurgitated makes reading The Tyee like some B movie rerun........

poindexter aka Ron Erwin

Hey, poindexter, why don't you just hoist up the Jolly Roger over the legislature and quit pretending....

Ed's right, we don't have a current government.

poindexter, will you stop f****** when you cannot find a proper word to use. Makes you look cheap and nasty.

Why Carole james and Carol Taylor will not go head to head is simple; the NDP leader is nothing but a wet noodle, with no polish. How can she go up against a Liberal liar, who believes in the devine right to rule?

The NDP had better look for a winner to lead the party, not a dowdy matron.

and Ed Deak, the armed gangs are here already, praying on the poor, elderly and defenceless; their name is the Liberals.

Hey Ed

Why don't you print your own money. You could call it Lux Bux. Only registered socialists would be permitted to use it

Grumps, you gotta stop hitting the crack pipe so early in the day.....

Lynn, when companies pay higher taxes where do you think the money comes from? The great socialist money pit in the sky?

Noleftnutter..

The present monetary and banking system is about 33 years old, when Nixon killed the gold standards and the deregulated monetary system in Canada 15, in the States a few more, when Reagan deregulated the banks, followed by Mulroney.

I don't know where you get those "thousands of years" figures, but there's no comparison between a gold, or value based monetary system against pure faith based, or fiat money.

Banks , today create money against the assets of the borrowers, then create more, ad infinitum.

Obviously, you have absolutely no idea of how the system works, but believe in the neocon propaganda.

As far "wealth creation" is concerned, it can only take place when there are available resources that can be converted into certain products and the benefits directed into the pockets of certain sectors. This is another historical fact.

If wealth could be created, we wouldn't have ruling classes, colonizations, crime and wars. No resources, no wealth. Period. Service industries are not assets, but liabilities to an economy, just as service personnel are in a factory. I've been in business for 49 years, so I do have some slight idea on how the system works.

The dollar hegemony is finished and the US dollar is worthless. Even some US legislators are beginning to come to grip with this sordid fact. When it collapses, it will take the whole world's, "globalized" economy with it.

I hope you people have some good trades you can survive by, just as people in Europe had to after WW2.

Do yourself a favour and do some studying before making silly statements.

Ed Deak.

No, Poindexter. The small issue is on her shoes. The bigger issues are with everything else Lynn as hot about. Hey, when you can counter with something better than shoes, I'll listen. Until then, forgive me for being a little deaf.

NLN:
Ed has a point that is worth endlessly repeating. Thats just it. Look at history and tell me empires didn't crumble due to their own monetary systems brought down by greed from individuals, groups or otherwise.

Those "A" movies of the fall of Italy's Rome or France, or England or Germany aren't worth playing a role, in what is now the U.S. empirical fall with bootlicking Canada close behind. And its not happening in the U.S.? That's what they all said too, standing at the edge of their own cliff.

Thing is, its larger than the systems, however flawed or disfunctional we have in place. Its far larger, and although you are right with the stuff you've said in taking raw resources and adding value with finished product, the larger question isn't so much what determines value, but what is stolen or exploited to get that value and with this arguement, Ed is right. It is stolen. Its stolen at a cost to our environments, at a cost to our freedoms and at a cost to the health and well being of all life besides our own.

There is a cost to everything, to that I will agree. A cost to love, a cost to peace, a cost to truth and telling it... but to steal it. To steal resources, to steal labour, to steal intellectual properties, perhaps even the very right to birth of all that holds value...

This is my point.

When anyone or any group decides to succeed at anyone elses expense... going beyond what is necessary to unwittingly create falsehoods and lies and theft for their own gain at the suffering of humanity and all other life, the sufferings of our environments all life shares, to go beyond necessity... is to steal. Its crooked, bent, twisted, disfunctional, whatever you want to call it, and its a theme worth repeating over and over and over until enough of us finally get it, organize, and counter the madness.

Is there a better system than the monetary one? Probably not. Is there a better system than a capitol one? Probably not. is there a better system than the capitol system we have today? In spades. Its becoming deregulated fast for a few to profit at the expense of many. Again. To steal

You come here mocking this site, belittling others to build yourself up. And that finger your pointing is suddenly pointing right back at you. How do you like another point of view? Do you suddenly like that variety you were looking for?

NoLeftNutter,

And when corps don't pay taxes where do you think the money comes from to pay for the roads, fire, police, judiciary etc that make the system in which corporations thrive?

And when corporations pay lower taxes, where do you think the money to pay for government expenses comes from? Thin air? It comes from banks that charge interest when not enough comes in, and we can forget about trying to retrieve their profits, we just cut their taxes.

You don't cut taxes in good times, and we are in good times. It isn't a recession, here. Commodities are up. The dollar is up. Spending is up. Nows not the time to cut taxes. Its the time to raise them!

And if the economy cools, back off. If the economy slides into a recession, cut corporate taxes. Anything else can be considered "reckless", in my opinion and my opinion will likely suck to you and others, but I really don't care. We cast opinion here. Sometimes, we even support it with facts. Its why were here. Its what we do.
:-D

Frank: lol! ;-)

Frank, brain - corporate taxes are but one of thousands of taxes that we have here in Canada. You share some odd belief that their tax creation comes from thin air. It doesn't, it comes from customers, employees or shareholders.

I ask the question of Lynn, as I have here before, because to simply say that raising corporate taxes beneifts us all is silly....

Ed, people have been banking, borrowing, lending and repaying for thousands of years. Really, how is the claim of a monetary system built on the gold standard that different?

I agree that wealth creation does come from the use of natural resources. You're the one that constantly states "Wealth can not be created, only taken".
Perhaps you mean that we need to utilize our natural resources to create wealth. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Finally, brain, I see, raise taxes and government expenditures and then mortgage our kid's future when we're unable to pay the tab in difficult times.

I'll answer my own question.

Frank : Why it comes from individual taxpayers of course who now have less money to spend on the products made by corporations.

NLN : Really?

Frank : Yes, really.

NLN : Well then maybe corporations should pay more taxes so that consumers will have more money to spend and Canada will be a big happy place?

Frank : Won't happen NLN because a large percentage of our corporations aren't Canadian and want to repatriate as much money as possible back to the US.

NLN : How much money gets repatriated? Can't be much.

Frank : 10's of billions per year. I saw one number for 1999 that said 72 billion that year but I'm not going to stand by it until I see it verified somewhere else. In all, close to 600 billion in Cdn companies were bought up in the past 20 years.

NLN : So your point is that if foreign corporations paid more taxes and royalties we individuals could pay less?

Frank : Yes

NLN : But wouldn't that retard foreign investment?

Frank : This would be a good thing because only 3.2% of foreign investment is actual investment. The rest is simply the takeover of existing Cdn companies. Over 11,000 Canadian companies in the past 20 years since the dismantling of FIRA have been taken over. Profits from those companies now either leave the country or are used to buy up more Cdn companies.

NLN : Why do I care who owns the company?

Frank : Because when our companies are taken over we lose not only the profits from our labour and resources which then goes to creating wealth in other countries instead of ours, it also creates a brain-drain effect because head offices and R&D is moved back to the home country in a large number of cases.

Globe and Mail :

Sorry, Frank. Without some meaningful data to back up your monologue you're just passing more socailist gas.

What is the balance of Canadian ownerhsip of comapnies in foreign lands that repatriate their income back to Canada?

I'll repeat my earlier statement that much of the Tyee dailogue is just the same idealogical dogma, refried. Although usually you deserve credit for being a little more astute than the rest, you haven't managed that yet in this discussion.

NLN, I provided one link from the Globe for the past year. I think its indicative of the past 20. Do you think otherwise?

As for socialist gas, I am responding to a discussion where you did not post any supporting evidence. I thought the rules of engagement were thus pretty clear.

I admitted myself I only have one source for the 72 billion. But I can quite quickly dig up the other links. If this is a google-based discussion I would say its your turn.

Oh, and we should clarify exactly what we're debating. I doubt you'll want to argue the point that Canada is to a large extent foreign-owned and this affects our tax policies as well as other policies. That would be a tar-sand for you.

NLN, the BC Liberals taxation policies are regressive, not progressive. The pirate ship docked in Victoria, strewn now with the foreign flags it so loves, has shifted the tax burden to the middle income and the families of this province. We pay more for MSP premiums now, more for insurance, more for Pharmacare...well, really, more for just about everything. We are waist deep in user fees: fees for "our" provincial parks, eye exams, physio, parking fees for "our" outdoor rec sites...gas and hydro all on the increase and rising.

As Frank has alluded to : What would "your wonderful world of development" do without the generosity and largesse of us dear public taxpayers that pay for the roads, hospitals and schools that are vital to the system in which corporations thrive? How would you ever get to your sacred ground of Whistler and your holy Olympic grail without us...more to the point....without using our money?

Schreck didn't forget it, because it isn't true. The "structural deficit" was actually caused by the massive Lieberal tax cuts to big business and the rich.

Gordon Campbell and his team hates the poor, the weak, and the powerless.

Gordo is going to Turin to be there for the closing ceremony. I hope that in the next election, the the BC voters will show their humanity and make sure they keep him off of the stage in 2010.

Wouldn't that be ironic.

PS. Anyone males who defends the Campbell government should be force to do their own prostrate exams to show how they are actively looking for ways to deliver quality health care in B.C.

Frank - you don't even see the irony do you? Our money is ending up offshore because other jurisdictions have lower taxes, therfore, we should respond by raising our taxes....see where we could end up.

Lynn, of course we pay more taxes. That's what happens when government expenditures keep going up. You're drinking your lunch if you think you don't pay higher prices when corporate taxes go up.

I've never said that I favour development. What I favour is the least amount of government possible, because that leaves me with the freedom to choose what to do with the greatest amount of my productivity possible. My perspective is no more complicated than that.

NLN, no link to support your argument? I assume I was correct then that this is a discussion for rhetoric alone and facts should be left at the door?

You do know I assume that even in the days King and Laurent and CD Howe foreign ownership was on the rise in many key sectors?

Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing how you arrived at this conclsion. I admit its way out of right field and ignores most of the issue. Now, why would foreigners take over companies in Canada if our taxes are so high putting it somewhere else would be better?

Wouldn't your argument be best suited for a world in which foreigners were avoiding Canada?

And does not the corporation also lose when individual taxes go up leaving consumers with less purchasing power?

Would it not be fair to say then that you suffer from the "horizon effect"? Where the long-term consequences of people's economic activity being based solely on their own well-being ignores the protection of community resources?

The old story of the death of the "commons" in England for example or everyone in a rush to grab the last fish or the last tree etc? Has it not been proven over and over that naked self-interest leaves everyone poorer in the long run?

Now you're getting warmed up Frank....You're the one that claimed too much of our corporate taxes were going outside of Canada. If we had the lowest corprate taxes in the country or the world, wouldn't all of those companies outside of our borders want to move here?

What does the corporation lose when sales decline? It simply pays less, or returns less to it's shareholders. In any case it's only a paper shell and they come and go all the time.

I am only trying to make the point that people who constantly decry the Liberals corporate tax policy are only seeing half the picture.

I don't know what the horizon effect is and you have no claim to accuse me of naked self interest. I just don't want government elites determining the qualtiy of my lifestyle based on their own self-serving political agenda fueled by my tax dollars.

Man, you are a brainwashed ideologue.

You want smaller elected government "to be free", but are willing to sell your soul to foreign carpetbaggers who're taking Canadian wealth and lives to enrich shareholders thousands of miles away and without any benefits to the country, without any responsibilities. At least we can get rid of politicians, but not of the crooks who call themseleves "investors".

The amount of foreign investment that goes into takeovers is, on an average between 94 to 97 % and available from StatsCan. Absolutely no benefit to the country.

Besides, when you have assets and resources, you have investment capital. This is an old business law. Foreign investment is money created abroad to take over the resources of another country. Which means that Canada never needed a penny or foreign investment, neither does any country where it flows in, as they can create their own capital against their own assets, for the benefit of their own peoples.

Foreign investment, like today's money creation by the banks, is a fraud and a crime wave. Nothing less than a new form of colonization.

Go to google and type in "Money creation", or "How money is created".

Ed Deak.

NLN, just to be clear, I don't claim that corporate taxes are leaving the country. What I claim is that foreigners have been buying up Canada since WW2, that its been increasing since FIRA was dismantled, and that it represents the loss of the profit on our workers and resources.

I'm sure you know of the multiplier effect. Well the multiplier on 50+ billion a year in repatriated profits would go far to lessening our tax burdens. Both corporate and individual.

That only 3.2% of foreign investment since 1985 has been actual investment tells me we need a better regulatory regime in place that prevents things like Terasen Gas being foreign owned. If Canada was profiting from our resource sector we'd be doing fine, but instead we let foreigners profit from those resources in return for a piddly amount of royalties. Its the profit from Cdn workers extracting Cdn resources that we should be enjoying.

The lowest tax rate in the world is zero. You want zero corporate taxes? The only way to beat zero is for us to pay them. A zero corporate tax returns zero to gov't coffers. Do you think if Canada lowered its corporate taxrate to zero all the multinationals would become Cdn companies with Cdn shareholders and all the profits would be spent in the Cdn economy?

If corporations pay no tax the rate on individuals will have to rise, that means less sales for corporations and less revenue. Corporations and individuals are hurt when corps don't pay tax.

.

By horizon effect I mean acting in one's self-interest with no thought to the greater community or the long-term ramifications of short-term decision making.

I wasn't accusing you of naked self-interest, I was quoting you :

As you can see from your quote I believe I was not unfairly labelling your point of view as being one of self-interest ahead of community interest.

Besides elections for gov't, what other way do we have of deciding what the community interest is?

Depends on their market, Frank. You know, the Canadian dollar collapses again, because a bunch of bozos ran up deficits cutting the GST to fight the deficit, and the low dollar suddenly bodes well for resource companies who fire sale it to the states so that they can shape it up and give it more value as NLN says, lol, with the help of banks who use imaginary capitol to lend to create more wealth with imaginary money thanks to deregulation, of course, lol. Of course, CEO's here have to make a pile of paper to enjoy an out of country vacation...

Yes, I remember Mulroney's broad smiles when he ran up debt, crushed our dollar and bragged up increased trade, claiming credit as we sold our resources for next to nothing during all that red ink. That was a nice war he spent 11.7 billion on as well, how soon we forget. Classic example of a government that downsized, cut and slashed, borrowed and borrowed, I think we've seen enough of that that one, NLN, at least, those old enough to remember.

If you have higher tax rates in good times, you'll have money from surplus's to pay for social programs in good and bad without having to mortgage the future. You're entire premise relies on believing that cutting corporate taxes stimulates the economy, while raising corporate taxes hurts it. I can tell you unequivically, that you are wrong with this.

Canada exports raw resources. Its what we do. They are called Commodities. Commodity values stimulate or retard corporate growth in these sectors. A couple four points here or there, won't make a great deal of difference in boom or bust. It will if the economy is just... plodding along. Check the values of oil and metals lately?

A high dollar hurts certain commodity exports that aren't in demand. check the values of grain and lumber lately? And if you think the answer is a low dollar, ask yourself why anyone in their right mind would want it. Lower buying power, less bang for your buck, and less value for what you export. Only a dummie U.S. sellout would want this, and only an inept idiot U.S. sellout finance minister that runs deficits can create falling currencies. Notice where Micheal Wilson is lately?

And just so you know what it is that we export, it isn't cars, and toys. It isn't TV's and DVD players. Its not computers. We export raw resources for the most part, NLN, commodities that have values determined world wide by world wide demand, and currencies. You see, there is no left or right with this. There is only logic. And media only spins left and right. If you had a pair of nuts, you would have been balanced enough to realize this by now.

And if you aren't into looking at why social programs are needed in this country to keep labour more healthy and productive to keep corporations more profitable in the long haul, then what can I say? Show me logic and kind, and I'll counter with the same. Show me extremes...

I Can Sum Up The Entire Comments Section Of The Tyee In 3 Words, Get Ready:

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!

All You Faithful Tyee Readers Head Down To Your Local Government Office With Hat In Hand! After All, You're Entitled To It!

.....We learned it from our "wealth creating foreign investor corporations", who don't do it with hat in the hand, but demand it with so called "free trade", given to them by our dear Conservative and Liberal politicians.

Ed Deak.

Wow, what a great comment Simon. Your writing just keeps getting better little buddy.

Now re up your subscription to the Province and don't bother coming to the Tyee

Don't worry your little head over anything except how Brad and Jen are doing, k?

Now let the adults talk.

Yes, Frank, I'm pregnant. Watched the ice melt yesterday... Decided to do that gimme, gimme, gimme thing, you know, meditation... cause I wanted to know stuff.

Through observation. Being selfish of course. And a voice came unto me and said, "The Tyee (Big warrior indian chief) has a noisy head". And said:

Nesika mamook chee oakut wawa,
We made a new way to speak
Tamahnous oakut mitlite wawa,
A magic way to speak,
Skookum oakut, nesika oakut
A strong way, our own way.

And then the voice said:
“Klahowya Tillicum Saghalie. Mamuk lametsin tyee iht tillicum… skookum. Skookum oakut, nesika oakut.”

The voice told me to tell you he asked for the same thing for you as well. The voice said, "Where ever you go, you will take it with you."

Your a smart dude, Frank. You're more a gentleman than I have ever wished to be and I admire you for it. Every other Friday from here on in. I'm on the hunt for something now.

brain? You're lying. I've been to Revelstoke, it doesn't melt for another 3 months.

As for gentleman, I know you're lying again because its impossible to be one when you're on the same forum as one of the 216 people Campbell hired for PR.

As for pregnant, hey, juskatladude was confused, I was only helping him out :-)

Another poster reeking of belittling others to build themselves up... Welcome to the show. Nice way to start your post, Simon. You know, with "I".

There was once a school of students that were known for "seeking the truth in all places, left and right (with and without the political label), popular or not". The expression was known as wayfaring, including the whole spectrum in the search for knowledge. Eventually specializations branched off into a variety of schools whose interest ultimately turned into separate systems of thought and practice, each referring to its foundation of ideas as the Way. Among them, the schools of learning that retained the most comprehensive range of interest generally came to be known as ordinary (and not so ordinary) wayfarers to distinguish them from more narrow specialists, such as Legalists and philosophers.
The wayfarers were heirs to several sources of most ancient knowledge: Shamans who knew how to alter consciousness; curers who studied the properties of plants and minerals; diviners who studied the weather, the stars, the animals, and the balance of the environment as a whole; spontaneously evolved chieftains and courts of high antiquity who laid the groundwork of civilization; court scribes and historians, whose work confronted them daily with the moral and political lessons of the ages; so-called lost people, descendants of refugee colonies founded by people of vision fleeing ancient wars, taking extended families, even whole villages, along with them; individualists, special people who were known to others but lived independently outside conventional society; and so-called sublimated or spiritualized people, who were believed to be generally unknown to ordinary humanity yet able to exert a mysterious influence under certain conditions.
Sometimes wayfarer individualists, who were looked upon with awe and reverence, would participate in society, even in government, as people who could bring an extra dimension of insight to bear on the problems of the time. Sometimes families or communities of forgotten people were discovered by seekers of the Way, becoming seeds for tales of timeless immortal realms. Extraordinary stories also undoubtedly developed from encounters with other hidden people and glimpses of their unusual characters.

And you just insulted some of them, Simon, ordinary or otherwise from infancy to elder. And insulting the rest of those who wanted to know more than they did, and/or communicate their thoughts and feelings on all levels.

How does it make you feel?
Large or small?

Frank:
Global warming.
lol Good point with Campbells help. But there's always a few of us trying to bleat, "Your going the wrong way"!

Catch yah on the flip 8-D

;-)

For me, minimizing the shoes doesn't work. A political cartoon published in the NOW newspaper captures the essence of Schreck's theme: picture this:

Symbolic Footware:

a pair of sparkling Guccis: Budget 2006

a pair of baby booties: Budget Cut 2002

embroidered on the booties: Sherry Charlie

This government seeks to rebrand itself as socially responsible with fiscal integrity; not everyone is buying the new look, folks. Actions speak louder than words. Clicking Gucci heels and dancing to Gordo's tune keeps Taylor grinning for the cameras. I'll take "dowdy" and compassionate over that any day.

"I'll take "dowdy" and compassionate over that any day."

You just need to remember to do it on one particular day - election day.

This one comes back to every one of us. The worth of a society rests entirely on how it treats its most defenseless people. If there were no children, there would be really no reason to have a society at all. We flunk that, we flunk, period.

OK corral, anyone?

Wellll, looking out my window this morning, onto this winter wonderland, you might certainly think that is true. (On the heels of one of the mildest winters I can remember.)Though they are calling for rain again later this week, which has been more the norm this winter.

I recall Fait Lux saying, earlier this winter, this was one of the weirdest winters he can recall up there in the Chilcotins, with almost no snow. Ditto here. A global warming kind of winter, no doubt.

And then we have the Neocon Dingnuts here calling for unleashing capitalism's individualist and elitist focussed greed even more. Cut down more trees, dig and pump more shitt outta da ground and ship it off to The Empire. More people, cheaper labour, less birth control rights, then disregard their needs, unless they're at the corporate welfare pig trough of course, faster and more production, more stuff, and still more cheaper labour and more consumers, like the two are separate groups and there is no "income and consumption" contradiction. And, oh! Pay less corporate taxes, and make the "cheaper" masses pay themselves to keep the Greed Machine on the rails and aid the headlong rush to economic collapse and extinction.

Fug the treehuggers and the poor!

In The God of Capitalism We Trust!

But even then, every once in awhile, someone in the Neoconazi camp begins to wonder aloud about the sanity of it all, and speak honestly, if quickly soon forgotten, of their addiction to oil 'n "other people's stuff". (They speak of it just long enough to be distracting and disarming. Not so much that they should really be taken seriously-, or really have to do anything about the root causes of it.)

Then, "Bam!".

"Stick that IV in my arm again, bro! Mainline it. Mainline it. I was just fuggin' kiddin"!"

Same old, same old rip, rape and run.

Every single post here has talked about the government's support of children at risk in terms of dollars.

This is not strictly a dollars problem but also a problem of cultural misunderstandings that have led to aberrant, race-politic arrangements that are to the detriment of aboriginal children.

HEY !

ANYBODY...remember where carol taylor worked before become one of EL GORDOS STOOGES...

THAT'S RIGHT...THAT BLACK ,TASTELESS ,PSUEDOARTISTIC , MONEY PIT......THE ...CBC

small wonder she then knows who to give monies out to...and how much...

if anyone knows about CORPORATE WELFARE it's taylor...

SMALL WONDER EL GORDO HIRED THIS OLD DRINKIN BUDDY TO GREASE THE WHEELS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

YAMMER !

VERY GOOD POINT ............

NOW WE NEED TO ADDRESS THESE DIFFERENCES ...

OH! WAIT A MINUTE....HOW LONG HAS THE WHITE MAN BEEN HERE ???

LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE ADDRESSED ...ANY PROBLEM...TEN TIMES OVER !!!

any suggestions???????????????????????

You're trying to hide behind cute words and ambiguous sentence and ideas structure, Yammer.

Spit it out, so we can see what you look like naked and in the light of day. Don't be shy.

Hey, Coyote :-)

Its snow day here! Should rain off in a couple of days, friggin global warming :-(

Yammer: Were listening... suggestions? There's an old saying that goes (at least with me), "Any one can desribe the ugly colors of bruises and ouzze seeping from an open wound. It's not just anyone who can heal it." The condensed version would be, if your going to bring up problems, try a hand in breaking the norm by following them up with solutions.

Minniemouse: point taken.

Understandme: CBC spends money? I don't mind. (-:

hey Pointdexter:
BC is still a "have not" province as you can read about elsewhere on Tyee!
this lot is just so much smarter about having their cake and eating as well.

Is it just me or is anyone else disturbed that a tragic little girl's case is used as a figurehead for discussions and rants about money and partisanship? Is that all her life is worth? If so, a pox on all your houses.

Hi Brain and Coyote,

If you have been following this case, you are aware that Sherry's case was handled by the aboriginal system, set up in parallel to the Ministry of Children And Families.

I don't accuse anyone of intentional racism or neglect. I'm sure all of the workers did their best.

But there is an inevitable and, in my view, totally unnecessary complexity and inefficiency when you set up multiple systems involving many separate structures: bands, aboriginal agencies, and of course the Ministry.

It is no wonder that critical information about the criminal history (assault) regarding Sherry's uncle was apparently not passed on to the aboriginal agency.

The reason we have these separate agencies is because the majority has such a guilty conscience about the oppression of the aboriginal people.

The solution has been to "empower" aboriginal people with a separate bureaucracy, with separate standards.

Separate on the basis of RACE. Didn't we use to call that "apartheid"?

The motives are laudable but I think we really have to question whether there is any meritorious principle here. The results, surely, are speaking for themselves.

HEY KURT !

I share your DISGUST ... there are 716(figure may be out ?)other cases of children....

NOW REPEAT AFTER ME...MATTHEU VAUDRILL...

REMEMBER WHO SCREAMED THE LOUDEST ...WHEN MATHEU WAS BEAT TO DEATH BY HIS MENTALLY ILL MOTHER ???

YES !!! THAT'S RIGHT...THE LIBERALS !!!!!!!!!!!!

and like every big mouth arm chair expert...they sat there and PROMISED US BETTER...

THEY PROMISED CHILDREN ...BETTER!

I THINK ,WE ALREADY HAVE A POX ON OUR HOUSES...AND IT IS A SYSTEM RUN BY UNCARING PEOPLE WHO LOOK ONLY FOR A PAYCHEQUE...AND KILL TIME WAITING FOR THEIR PENSIONS.........

MEDIOCRE .........MEDIOCRITY....THE CALL OF THE OVERFED AMBIVALENT CIVIL SERVANT....

i have dealt personaly with SOCIAL SERVICES in PORT ALBERNI and can tell you if you have a disabled family member looking for help there...it would be cheaper and less frustrating to take that member into your home...it's what they want...

it saves them money...AND SCREW THE CONSEQUENCES!

kurt:
Speaking for myself, I'm out of town 6 months out of the year in the woods... in work camps. I don't often read the province, or keep up on local news, as its federal and international concerns that I focus my attention on. This is likely the first I've heard of Sherrie Charlie, or avoided the fine print past the headlines, because it was making me sick inside.

I don't know anything about her other than what I've read here yesterday. I don't know if it was failed government programs or cutbacks that had anything to do with it, if she slipped through the cracks of the system, I know next to nothing. And, its admittedly to my own shame, but there is a great deal more that I know about all of the other victims that are dying or have died around the world, so bear with me. And now I know:

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/news/shownews.jsp?content=n021802A

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_sherry-charlie20060207.html?ref=rss

We as individuals can only do so much. So we network. We form organizations and groups to represent our ideologies and concerns to give our unified voices greater clout. We do this, because no one individual can do it all.

Our ancestors, through their wisdom and successes built on failures, created systems to serve the greater good of us all. The best systems they could come up with are what we have inherited today. These systems are at the mercies of constant clashes, sometimes even wars between ideologies that serve everyone and ideologies that serve a select few.
Lately, it seems that the focus has been shifted from serving whats best for the whole, towards serving what is best for a few of its parts. Utimately, our government has been designed to serve this greater whole, to serve all of the individuals that are under its care. David Schreck is pointing out, and rightly so, that in this case, the government failed.

David Schrecks story relies on our knowing these premises before hand and although it might seem heartless to not connect personally to this story, at least at first, the pic and name should be enough for us to acknowledge that we have a duty not just in government to prevent this from happening, we have a duty as voters and taxpayers to remind and change government ideologies when they fail us. And they are failing us. Her death was real.

In Sherry Charlie's case, it wasn't just the system that broke down, and it wasn't just in one area of the system. And, there was also the breakdown within the mind of the individual who beat her to death. But the ugly, failed ideology within some individuals, some corporations, sometimes entire groups sitting within government, is the same.

I (we) want what I (we) want at everyone elses expense. It is the ideology that pursues "success" at everyone elses expense that should be held on trial here. And its happening world wide. Some to lesser degrees than an uncle beating his neice to death "because she wouldn't stop crying". And some to greater degree's of bombing Iraqi's or any other country that is to weak to defend themselves when our southern empire's oil corps can steal oil and pay off the other corrupt media corps and politicians to brainwash the taxpayer into paying for it.

So while you are putting value on this little girl's life and you should, as should we all, most of us posters are putting value on the ideologies, failed or otherwise in the systems that are designed to look after those who are vulnerable to narrow minded self serving violent individuals so that when individuals fail to put value on the life of children, any life for that matter be they individual humans, corporations, political parties, churches or otherwise... then systems designed to look after us all, will not fail. And this Campbell government "dearly" needs to be reminded of what they are really here for.

Thankyou for the needed personal connect to further our resolve.

"...discussions and rants about money and partisanship? Is that all her life is worth?"

certainly not. These come into the picture, because they are the logos on the bulldozers under which she and her life becomes 'collateral damage', or 'the cost of doing business'.

Rather than shifting blame around with adept rhetoric, we should perhaps dig deeper and see where widely pervasive attitudes allow this pattern of gross self-service to pay off. I would suggest two web sites that carry good innovative stuff on social mores we might question:

http://www.empathicparenting.org/

http://www.breakingranks.net/

Taken together, these two present some of the things we could work on to see progress.

Gloomy:
Any self respecting practice what you preacher knows that cake rots your teeth and makes you fat. And there's the odd lion young and old out there that eats grass with their game, living on a balanced diet, don't forget.

Yammer:

Thats not it.

That's more like it. By Jove, I think you've got it! Your nakedness, as Coyote puts it, isn't hard to look at. Its not cultural differences so much as it is separate agencies and ministries. You are bang on with this. No communication!
And the only way government will be able to avoid this from happening again is to integrate provincial systems, jointly with first nations self governments if necessary. There is no other way to ensure that provincial and federal standards are met!

But as far as racism or all of those other isms go, trust me when I say this, its not a matter of treating races differently, but in treating all races the same with the same standards. It truly is about this, and my point is in the last post.

What is greater, the whole, or the sum of its parts? How can a part be a part without being part of the whole? How can the whole be whole by missing one or more of its parts? How can a part think only of itself and expect to survive? How can the whole think only of one or two of its parts and expect to survive?

This story is also about survival and if we aren't looking out for each others best interest, blinded by our own... then we'll fail and many of us, maybe even all of us some day, will not survive. It is that cut and dried, so while strong arguments can be made to separate, isolate, self govern, stronger arguments can be made to at some point in time, connect and unite, come together, and not only self govern, but jointly govern over those that cannot govern themselves.

Both arguments have their time and place.

Dorothy: Interesting links. :-)

Hey Rosetti

Nice malapropism (look it up)
I believe you meant to say
"...should be forced to do their own PROSTATE exams" rather than PROSTRATE exams.
maybe not, anything's possible at this site.

Hey Ed Deak give us another introductory lecture in Economics...fascinating stuff, are you on acid?

What we have is apartheid, and have for very many years, run by the whiteman-, who has good reason to feel guilty.

Natives, in my view, like the Quebecois, are one of the three founding nations of Canada-, who need their own land base, access to resources, the fundamental of an economy and as they say, "wealth creation", so that they can finance themselves and their own "childcare system".

The assumption that they, Natives, should by lumped in with and "blend" into the melting pot with us is, our own assumption and wish for a solution. Natives have their own view of the solution, and I'm reasonably certain it is not that. As we, or many of us, want to maintain our own national identity vis a vis the US, so do Native Canadians vis a vis us. At the same time we have this long historical "association". The trick being, to find a solution that works for the both of us, as in "them" and "us", not just Whites.

We have and continue to put our own poor "white" children at risk, and their families, for want of resources whilst the already wealthy get tax cuts. That it occurs with Natives in their very often much more long standing, dire and impoverished realities should not be anymore surprising.

Both these realities, for poor White kids and Natives are indicitaive of a parallel problem going on in both societies; poverty, families in crisis, and a "dominant" "official" society run by largely Whites withdrawing from its responsibilites to its own, and especially bearing down hardest on the longer oppressed and dependent, struggling to survive and maintain itself, Native societies.

Which as the latter's numbers are growing the fastest, holds out another kind of "race based" day of reckoning for this capitalist society which works to perpetrate its rule and dominance over them. It comes to an end out there in time. And it's the implications of crimes such as occurred to Sherry which works to hasten it along.

We may want to take the position that they should just give up on their own national survival story and surrender finally and completely to ours, but something tells me that is not the way this story ends, or has to.

And I know a thing or two about the determination of Natives to write the end to their own story. And I'm anything but a White Wannabe Native. I just know and understand from experience. Some, like some Whites, have given up and turned to the bottle for solace and escape, and with a more generalized good reason was my observation. But pay attention, coming up here... any day now. :-)

D'em goddamn Whites ain't fuggin' enough. Too busy making moolah and getting fat. No time for babies. Gotta keep bringin' in imports. :-)

He who puts the most sheep in the pasture, gets to control the pasture.

Here are some tried and true quotes from the Tyee's great satan Milton Friedman:

"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it [...] gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."

"The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem."

"We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork."

"There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. And that’s government. And that’s close to 40% of our national income."

Ahmen Milton, Ahmen!

All politics aside, especially the cuts and then refunding already overgrossly underfundeed programs, what is lacking as usual is to look at the real lives of these children. These Native children did not appear out of a vacuum. These children have a distinct history that ties them to their culture, family, community and land. Further, what has gone wrong here is that it is forgotten that there is a history of covert and out right blatent racism facing all Natives of Canada. Women and children, unfortunately, are at the bottom of this chain. The systemic history of canada keeps entrenching the racist ideologies that continue to do a disservice to Native women and children. For instance, there are many single Native mothers out there who struggle to support their children in a screwed up system: mainly unacceptable welfare rates, inadequate housing, and inadequate childcare subsidies to say the least. Now compound this with the pressures of a Social welfare system that has always done a disservice to the Natives of Canada. In the 1960's children were taken from their homes based on a checklist for food/neccessities. The real question is has this political agenda changed much? Or is our government looking at the realities of these mothers and their children?
More money would be the solution: atleast in terms of BEING FAIR!!! Children are the most valued resource! Women also deserve to be treated fairly with dignity while accessing the welfare system. Women and children deserve to have adequate food, housing, and community. This would begin by giving all people adequate money to live off of (so they aren't hungry) and to rent decent housing!!! That would be a start. Raise the welfare rates, axe the 2 year welfare time limit policy, and give adequate money for childcare for women who want training, education, or employment!

Aho,
Kendra Newman
Vancouver, BC

So Simon, as I've said before on here, why not get rid of gov't completely?

Let's do it. I'm all for it.

If you really truly believe in freedom you'll agree.

Any one of us should have the freedom not to live under capitalism if we don't want to? Correct?

So let's get rid of gov't and let everyone have their own personal economic and political system.

Of course Friedman preferred to work in the public sector himself.

Just more Milton Friedman, Neoconazi doublespeak horseshitt. It's been around now since Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, and simply doesn't work. There is no "trickle down" . It's really organized to trickle up and stay there.

Neoconazi "Friedmanesque Capitalism" is worse and getting worse by the day, for the mass of ordinary working people. It is this ideology of capitalism's basest instincts, unfettered and turned loose, which is really responsible for the crisis in capitalism, its militarism and its newly aggressive imperialist face seen by the world.

I understand well enough though-, it works great for the greedy, the don't give a shitt, the immoral Everyman for Himself and The Devil Take The Hindmost. But it especially does work for the already rich and powerful-, the ruling class of capitalism. And Friedman helped create the economic ideology that would underpin its system of ideas rationale, and if accepted widely enough, keep the status quo precisely they way it is, though worse for the mass of people-, and of course, the rich, richer and more in control. (Which is its real raison d'etre.)

And when and where it doesn't work, blame the Greatest Number who it doesn't work for. Which is the flip side of the Friedman Neoconazi coin.

You're blowing out your anus again Simon_Carlsen. Which is about as close as you and your friends here ever get to fresch air.

So, now we should feel sorry for the natives, eh?
Many scribes onTyee have hounded the trade unions about corruption, but do not seem to grasp that we as a nation are paying heavily to corrupt tribal councils as well as funding rebuilding etc.
Talk about corruption! where does all that money go? certainly not to the single native mothers!
We should just keep footing all bills, and still take up the slack where they do not share as they were supposed to?
They already claim 110% of BC, and we just bow our heads in shame?
Like it or not, anywhere else in the world, the winner takes the spoils!
It was a war; we have hundreds of indian and cowboy movies to prove that point, who won? and now who winds up supporting the loosers?
I have met many natives who managed to fit in with our society, good for them!
Those who prefer to hunt with a bow and arrow should be pleased that snowmobiles and gear are available to them taxfree.
If your desolate village has poor water or your roof leaks, fix it just like anyone else would! if there is no sensible way to live in that area, hey, move! you have land enough!

No argument at all Kendra. Children should not be growing up in poverty in this country. The report that put free trade on the table also recommended guaranteed annual income to replace all the minimal schemes like welfare and UI but for some reason Mulroney didn't want to read that part.

Instead they expect single women to take minimum wage jobs and pay someone else minimum wage to take care of their kid. And somehow they expect her and her kid to get ahead. But then math has never been a strong suit of the right.

It wasn't a war. You must be watching foreign films. It was a mass immigration, treaties were promised but many have yet to be signed.

And why wouldn't the natives claim the whole province? Was there part of it they didn't use?

The Indian Act needs to be overhauled. Natives need more autonomy, control over their own land etc. Corrupt politicians exist off-reserve too. But until the day comes when driving drunk in Hawaii dismisses you as a provincial leader it seems a little hypocritical to point the finger at natives.

Which is the minimum solution to the problem-, a stopgap solution that will allow people, especially women with children to find their feet again, and not have to resort to prostitution to make up a living income, that will allow them to feed and clothe their families. Prostitution for poor women and children being capitalism's real favoured "get out there and work", "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" solution.

And aye, many of us out here would dearly love to get rid of the state, and not be forced by circumstance and the way the system is organized and dominant to have to participate in capitalism. But it is, to here, successfully organized to precisely ensure that it remains this way, and that the great mass of us have no other option but to submit to survive. Even then, in minimum wage and declining incomes capitalism that's no guarantee.

You, as public trough sucking Friedman should have, get out and get a real job.

Did you ever hear of the promises and "non-aggression" pacts that Hitler signed?
When you want someone's land badly enough, then you lie and cheat, as well as kill!
I am not pretending that "the settlers' were saints, i am saying they won the land, just as in any other war!
It is dirty and deplorable, all figthing is.

I am saying that we pay out a lot of money to make up for "the injustice" and that money winds up in the wrong places!
I agree that nobody should go without food or shelter, but there is no reason why we should pay twice!
If natives prefer to live in cities then they should get help, as long as they give up their "status" privileges! They cannot have it both ways!

But are they really having it both ways? Natives fill our prisons, they make up a disproportionate number of our poor, their educational outcomes are below average, their lifespans are shorter etc.

Whether on or off reserve, they're not doing well within Canada. Whether we regard them as native Canadians or simply fellow Canadians we need to show more regard for their plight.

Coyote:
Your first post after my own... maybe I'm not entirely clear, but I disagree with total separation of races and ethnic backgrounds and favor melting pots (but not entirely) for two reasons:

The first is the gene pool. Isolated communities that don't have outsiders for to long... And I'm not extreme with this, just making a smaller point. A wandering stranger looking to sink roots where his heart leads him in foreign places isn't such a bad thing. I'm not much on civilizations imposing restrictions on where people like myself choose to roam.

The second reason, the one I'm totally for in terms of melting, not in a physical sense persay, unless needed as noted in the first reason, is that it doesn't matter what race or culture we come from. We share many of the same problems. We share the same needs for decent food, shelter, access to care facilities, family care, peace, and anything else that can enrich our lives and make it whole.

With races or societies that don't have the same problems as others, its because they have found working solutions (albeit, sometimes temporary ones). In other words, we have common denominators in terms of addressing real concerns and needs on both sides that have answers coming from places we might not expect.

Here's my point with partial melting VS total segregation.

First Nations citizens have as much to teach us, as we do with them. Maybe even more. We bluff ourselves into thinking that it is first nation citizens that have to conform or change to accomodate our systems and the white mans ways, when, with true melting pots, its a two way street. It works both ways.

By the way, you've laid a bull's eye bead on sheep taking over the pasture. Us whites are to selfish these days for kids. Were so healthy.

Sparkyboy: Stick to your drugs and drinking and let guys like Ed Deak do the thinking. He's had 78 revolutions around the sun, no spring chicken, and wise because of it. He's got badger in him. Some of us don't like badgers. They are persistent. They don't give up. And they smell. Like the Earth. And they know roots and herbs and minerals of the earth and things from their observations, being in places the minds of men have never been.
But as persistent as the badger is in giving us needed medicines, there are those like yourself that are yet to sick to swallow it, mabye cause its not sugar coated enough for those like yourself who think they can run with the pack, but can barely piss with the pups. In other words, if you want to debate it, supporting "reasonable facts" what's stopping you?

Gloomy (and the rest): When governments give greater autonomy to communities, first nation or otherwise, a certain transition period needs to be respected. This, getting back to the goverments failure to prevent Sherry Charlies death, has been in part caused by the governments poor handling of such transitions.

With our country, because it wasn't a war and no one lost or won as Frank has pointed out, violations of treaties or agreements need to be honored, to restore the very honor back to the origins of why this country formed to begin with, and what it is that our governments consciousness of its peoples needs truly are. This consciousness has only begun to surface in the last 20 to 30 years with greater emphasis on human rights, human freedoms, gender equality, equality between races and ethnic backgrounds, equality as a whole spawned by multiculturalism itself. It wasn't all that long ago that women weren't allowed to vote. These things take time.

We can go back to Harperville and his want of flag toting freedom provided by Simon Carson and his Milton Friedman guru quotes to do away with the human rights and freedoms for multiculturalism, if we so desire, but it will probably be over my own dead body first. Human rights and freedoms given birth by equality happen to be worth dying for. A rebuttal for Simon with Milton's sacred text:

This premise is false. The majority of people blow it unwisely on themselves, even through investments, throughout their lives.

Says more volumes about Miltons ideals.

Again, the majority of us don't know how to spend money on ourselves, including what we eat. A third of us are obsese. Another third are overweight. Factor in the malnutrition and malabsorption syndromes...

With this, we see Milton's clear disconnect. Milton parellels somebody elses money with everyone elses money as in government coffers and offers the blind rhetoric that no one is concerned about how it is spent, be they tax payers or tax recievers, like himself.

Miltons entire view or philosophy, is "I have every right to use the systems in place for my own benefit without supporting them, because I have the freedom to and can support myself independently". What he is saying by this, however, is that he will leave every baby, every mother, every elderly person who is dependent to die if his ideology is taken seriously, simply because he is not dependent. Now. Yet. Milton isn't Satan. He's just a self-centered blowhard wackjob.

"D'em goddamn Whites ain't fuggin' enough. Too busy making moolah and getting fat. No time for babies. Gotta keep bringin' in imports. :-) " - Coyote.

When I came to Canada 30 years ago, young and stupid (I'm not young anymore), one of the biggest schocks I experienced was, that the 'host' population of the country were not everywhere, comepletely a part of the fabric of society, and having put their stamp on that socity. This wrong assumption was one of the things that drew me here, because I saw it as a possibility, that Canada just might have integrated important cultural parameters from these people, making it a unique and very liveable blend. Well as dreams go...
I believe that to be the greatest wrong we are doing, not just to the first nations, but to all of us, that we as a society are missing out on adding what we could learn from them into our collective strength. The above remark about 'whites' is right on the money (pun intended). We do have our value set screwed up. There is a whole world of justified disdain in that casual remark. As for the cheap shot of stacking the population with 'our own kind', this is darn near criminal and must be stopped. Right now, there seems to be just a mindless cramming of more 'people', not a plan, not an attempt at doing something better with the human material we already have inside our borders.
As far as 'founding nations' go, apart from leaving myslef in the position of chopped liver, I don't believe it is a useful distinction. If we do not accept Sherry Charlie as everybody's, as our little girl, and get moved to action the way that would, nothing will change. Stow the guilt and the polite, distant 'respect' and get to work on the ATTITUDES around you. I spent half a year picking up the free pop every day, for a native woman, my co-worker, in the lounge of a local motel, because it was too unpleasat for her to do it, getting heckled by the rednecks sitting there and swilling beer. Not only did I ask myself, who would do it for her when I quit (no one had before), but today, I think I would, at least metaphorically, have taken some implement to the thick heads of those arrogant swine, who did not grant this woman human status.
It is things that mundane we must deal with, it is all such tiny tributaries, which make a great river, that could wash us cleaner. Let's get on with it.

Apples and oranges brain!
Yes the kids death is tragic and i too blame Gordo.
That does not change the fact that we as a nation suffer some guilt-complex over the action of the original settlers behaviour!

We pay back some money for the headtax on Chinese and the issue is settled!

This native issue will never be settled because too many people depend on it for their very existence!

As far as i am concerned when you kill people and settle on their land, it is an act of war!

Now the loosers want to "negotiate " a peace and why not?

All over the world similar hostilities have happened, and many places they are still figthing!
Here in peaceful Canada we choose to bend over backwards, give back everything, and pay damages on top of it!
Go figure!

Frank, here's a C&P from this link from CMA Management magazine -
http://www.managementmag.com/index.cfm/ci_id/1738/la_id/1

“More Canadian companies are now going global,” says Someshwar Rao, director of strategic investment analysis for Industry Canada’s micro-economic policy analysis branch. “In general, Canadians are investing more abroad and are now the leading net exporter of capital by a huge margin.”

Who's zooming who?

Actually, I'm able to look past the conspiracy therories, class warfare, borrowed ideas, rhetorical ranting and assorted other nonsense and at least catch a glimmer of what's really going on. You should try it sometime.

Ever heard of the CAW?

This must be the new math. Spend more when you have more then you'll have more left when you have less.....

At the very least the Tyee is an entertaining read.

NLN, you're cherry picking what you want to argue but that's fine.

Actually the CAW is a very good example, I just don't think its an example of what you think its of.

Ever heard of the auto-pact? Pure protectionism. Could never happen again under free trade.

Let's be clear, you're arguing against things like the auto-pact whereas I'm arguing for them as a second choice (I'd prefer outright Cdn ownership). That's what I mean by I don't think its an example of what you think its an example of.

Are you telling me you think that Canadians have taken over as much of the rest of the world as the rest of the world has taken over Canada?

I refer you again to the Globe and Mail of Feb 16th. Much more recent data than Management Mag's which is unclear on whether its counting investments by nominally Cdn companies like Ford Canada etc.

"The pace of mergers and acquisitions activity has been hectic, and Canadian companies are the targets more often than not. Last year, foreigners bought $66.4-billion worth of Canadian companies, while Canadians spent less than half that amount on foreign companies. The average purchase size of foreigners buying in Canada was about $500-million, while the average deal size for Canadians buying abroad was $100-million."

The Globe and Mail's numbers are pretty clear.

But are you? Or are you simply ignoring what you don't want to hear because it doesn't match your ideology? Dismiss StatsCan's data on foreign ownership and find solace in a business mag's rosy scenarios instead?

To add, do you think its good for Canada to be foreign owned to such a high degree in most major sectors?

Do you think its good for 96.8% of foreign investment over 20 years to be the takeover of existing Canadian companies? Does the idea of selling one's house and then paying rent to still live there make sense?

Do you think the brain drain is real or just an exaggeration of the left? Although the right at first liked to use it as a tax argument until later research demonstrated that wasn't the issue.

Frank - valid point, my comnments that you quoted were based on a respone to Fiat and his insistence that only he understands monetary theory and everyone else is "a brainwashed idealogue".

I'm prepared to accept StatCan's data but it's not going to change my life.

Remember when Japan roared in the early 80's on the strength of their manufacturing prowess and bought up most of America? Where are they now?

These things go in cycles and it's a credit to Canadian companies that they have created a property worth owning.

At the end of the day I'm better off as a consumer that Wal Mart bought K Mart because it's made the marketplace better through competition. And if I want to protest I can simply vote with my wallet - which, once again, is the central issue that keeps me coming back for my weekly floggings......

Frank - my question about the CAW was in response to "your zero tax rate" post. We already pay companies to do business in Canada but why a single mother waitress in Vanderhoof (assuming there's still a restaurant in Vanderhoof) would subsidize an auto worker in Oshawa or a member of the Bombardier clan is beyond me.

I'm not asking that it does. My point is that there are valid reasons for why I vote the way I do. Why I supported Mel Hurtig's National Party etc, foreign ownership is an important issue. But I don't ask that it be important to everybody.

Yes it is. But I want the good jobs and profits and taxes to stay in Canada. Just think how many public relations people the premier could hire with all that extra tax money staying here.

But as for cycles, the country has been dealing with this since CD Howe. The creation of FIRA was because it was a pressing issue even 40 years ago.

I just don't see how Canada can move ahead of countries that buy our companies, extract our resources for themselves and keep the profit on those same resources. Talk about win-win for foreigners. And it peeves me off to no end.

My point is I want a new version of FIRA to reject the 96.8% of investment that does not create jobs and in many cases sucks jobs out of the country. And I want repatriated profits taxed, and at a higher rate than other corporate taxes. I would also like to see the gov't tell domestic banks they can't use the deposits of Canadians to finance the takeover of Cdn companies by foreigners.

Doesn't make sense to me either as to why millions in gov't money goes to US auto makers who break their promises and cut jobs here anyway.

Hello Gloomy! Thank you for clearly illustrating my point that racism is still alive and well in Canada. My name is Kendra Newman from the Heiltsuk Nation. I am a direct decendant of a Nation that has lived in Canada since time immemorial. I have lived on the central coast of British Columbia as did my ancestors: it is my birthright to claim all lands and land and sea resources that my ancestors come from.(including the money generated from it that built Canada and, hence,sustains Canada!) So, if Canada is willing to pay us in full that amount then maybe we can become self sufficient as you have said. We are not a static culture: and have adjusted living to a westernized and patriarchal way of life. Call it Capitalism if you must. But as I have been once published before in an editorial for the Nanaimo Star, it was the Non-First Nations stealing of our land and resources that has fueled the racism we are still dealing with to this day. Once again I say, not much has changed! If I thought you were really interested in learning the truth of the history of First Nations of Canada, I might engage you further! But it is clear that you are on a rant and refuse to say who you are! I stand in my power as an Aboriginal woman that I will not be abused or have racial comments by you or anyone! That is enough! I know my history! I know where I come from!

In the spirit of healing all nations,

Kendra

KENDRA !

GOOD POST !

there will always be those in front...to DETER you...

you need only to know...that there are those of us behind you...to ENCOURAGE you...

JUSTICE is DEFINED the same in every language ..

STAND YOUR GROUND...YOUR TIME WILL COME.

Hey Kendra, great to have you on the Tyee. I have all the time in the world for the native point of view.

Gloomy, what was perpetrated on the First Nations of the "Canadian" portion of North America was not really an act of war. There were events in the very early colonial days in the Atlantic Provinces that could be argue to be so but I think that's an awfully broad and sloppy brush you're using. Even if one agrees that it was an act of war, was there some major treaty signed that stated the war was officially over with all parties signing on in accordance to the conditions of the treaty? Is the "war" over because people like you say it is?
The world that you envision, or that you see now, is a terrible, violent place. And you actually attempt to support your point by nodding to other countries where they're "still fighting" while disparaging Canada for "bending over". It's called compromise, understanding and resolution. And though there may be some widespread cultural guilt complex for something settlers did 100s of years ago (wow! that long ago?? That's like...dinosaur times) I ask you what has happened yesterday, last week, last month, from the first day a European set foot here? You're still doing it: marginalizing, ridiculing, demeaning. And you don't even know it. Shame.

Yes Kendra, everything was stolen from the first nations and reparations must continue in perpetuity. Forget the fact that sectarian tribal violence occurred long before the evil europeans came; displacing previously settled tribes and "stealing" their resources as territorial claims constantly changed. Ignore all recent archaeological evidence indicating peoples of different ancestry than those claiming to have first settled in the new world. If DNA testing conclusively proves that modern day first-nations in fact were not the first settlers in North America will they agree to pay those who they displaced and/or assimilated compensation in perpetuity?

Personally, I don't like getting into arguments over "who was first?" because there me arhaeological evidence that proves someone else was here first and so on backwards in virtual perpetuity. INdeed, there has been recent evidence that the first peoples of North America may indeed be of the caucosoid racial group. So what? Besides, the question is really moot, I think. Even by "our" own laws and principles we violated the "natural rights" of the first nations people and for centuries continued to do so and (though not through official/legal channels) continue to do so. We are all the poorer from it, some such as a few posters above, manage to convince themselves otherwise. Wrongs were done, very grievous wrongs, and we must do what we can to make it right. Maybe we can think outside the box of what we think is a done deal. Maybe we can think outside of the box of outright barbarism and might makes right. "reparations must continue in perpetuity," writes Carleson with a brilliant rhetorical flourish. Who said we must continue to make attempts to make things right in perpetuity? Must we, as humans, destroy extract and add no value to anything in perpetuity?

we are all wanderers and to be somewhere else is to hope that we will find comfort...but comfort only come to us when we give comfort to others...

a lesson we only learn...THE HARD WAY.

NONE OF US OWNS THIS EARTH....IT OWNS US...IT GAVE EVERY SINGLE BEING ...LIFE !

ONLY THE GREEDMONGERS PREACH...OWNERSHIP

ONLY THE UNDERSTANDING PREACH...GUARDIANSHIP

AND ONLY THE COMPASSIONATE PREACH UNDERSTANING !

that children die naturally is natures way...

THAT CHILDREN DIE WHILE WE STAND AND WATCH !

MAKES A GROWN MAN WEEP AT THE SICKNESS OF GREED AND STUPIDITY !

writes Understandme

No, justice is not defined the same in every language (and by extension I take you to mean every culture)

I have to say that I find you preachy, overly simplistic, and insulting to the intelligence.

Your comments on "preaching" serve to spook people, even those who may agree with some underlying premise you have. Your compulsive capitalization makes one think of a preacher. Obviously you are screaming your words. I can only speak for myself, but up until now I've chosen to ignore. (no, not the plight of the powerless). I suspect there are several others out there who feel the same. I'm curious... why do you feel the need to capitalize your messages? This is an honest question. I just find it a little off-putting. Like you intend every word to be emphasized for us morally irresponsible deaf folks.
IN earnest,
Jeremy KNight

And by children dying naturally and it being nature's way... what are you really saying? That blood transfusion's should not be accepted or given, perhaps? Is the end nigh?

Kendra, nice touch stating your name.
I am sure you do not really expect me to subject myself to harassment by identifying myself?
May I assume that you read every post I made on this subject?
If so, you will know that my point is that Canada spends a lot of money to placate old wounds, and that money should be enough that no native would need to go without, was it not misdirected or stolen.
I am sure someone has figured out how many dollars it amounts to for every native……eh brain?
Not counting the other benefits!

It makes no difference to me if you are Native or Ukrainian! Corruption knows no boundaries.
Hence I do not see it as a racist issue, but a matter that some of us get born with an advantage and others do not.

Somewhere in my writings I mentioned that those natives who live in cities should have the same privileges as anyone else, as long as they give up their status.
This country has plenty of people of all colours who suffer, but most of them are suffering on an equal basis.

Perhaps it upset you that I likened the hostilities as a war?
There are wars where only a few shots are fired, before the winner is recognized.
On april 9th 1940 Denmark woke up to see hundreds of airplanes in the sky, and was faced with an ultimatum: “surrender or die!”
The land was plundered, the people subjected to incarceration, slave labour and torture!
Had that war ended differently they would still be subjected to living as second class citizens in their own country!
As it happened they were liberated, but never saw any compensation, and have only had an abject apology so far.
Lives were changed forever, but nobody is whining about it because it was an act of war!
That is the parallel I had in mind.
There is nothing nice about war, but it is a fact of life!
To try to reverse things is a non-starter.

I mentioned that there are villages where the water is polluted and suggested that the simplest remedy is to move.
Instead the government spends millions on a place where the houses are falling down and there are no obvious reason to stay.
Many wonder why it is up to us to try to make it possible to keep hunting/fishing where there is no game anymore!
What would you have done in earlier days? Move is what!

So, yes it pisses some folks when some natives just sit as if helpless and say “you owe us!”
I am sure you have other issues, and I am happy that you joined the group as we need input from every angle.
Not sure if I can justify myself in your eyes, but nobody here seem to agree on much, so why should we?

O Canada, we stand on guarding the greatest of unpardonable crimes - deliberate genocide of native children and First Nations to steal their land.

HEY JEREMY !

too preachy...too bad !

that you can read doesn't mean you are EDUCATED !

being...SIMPLISTIC IS WHAT THIS SITE IS ABOUT !!!

IT PANDERS TO THE...LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR .

SHOULD YOU NEED HELP IN READING COMPREHENSION...READ MORE AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ! I GUARANTEE EVENTUALLY IT WILL SINK IN.

THAT YOU CANNOT SPOT A RHETORICAL DEVICE...SHOWS YOUR TOTAL LACK OF INTELLIGENCE...

YOU CAN COMPLAIN LIKE OTHERS HAVE ABOUT MY WRITING STYLE AND USE OF LANGUAGE...BUT DON'T DO IT TO ME...MY EDUCATION IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE PRECLUDES ME FROM BEARING INSULTS FROM THOSE NOT EDUCATED AS WELL AS I...

WHINE TO THE TYEE...THEY APPARENTLY HAVE A SOFT SPOT FOR WHINERS !!!

IT'S BEEN A GAS FOLKS...CIAO !

AS IN THE WHINERS WILL NO DOUBT HAVE THIS DELETED AS WELL !!!

it's DEROGATORY............OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I've always judged character by words and action rather than font style. A "rhetorical device" abused is an annoying vice overused.

I hope I'm completely unclear and reading you wrong here. A person "educated in the English language" as you so evidently are (grade 11 at minimum) shouldn't hit caps lock every time he/she is really geared up and ready to preach. I guess you're "precluded" from "bearing insults" (sounds kinda New Testament, there) by virtue of your own rabidness. The Caps Lock assault is almost too much to handle. I counter with italics, to the umpteenth level.Hear me, understand me, dismiss me. I am... UNDERSTANDME.

it's DEROGATORY............OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!

lost me there. I don't know what "O......h....." is referring to.

I have asked you a couple questions that you haven't answered. Show yourself, spawn of Yaweh. Reveal your nature and remove all doubt. Your answers are ambrosia...

I also would never whine to the tyee. NOr would I say what I'm about to say now to any of my brighter grade 10 or 11 students: You sound like a bright grade 10 or 11 student.

[**if you happen to be one of my grade 10 or 11 students you will receive credit for posting here. If you are one of my honour 10 or 11 students, you receive nothing. Back to the drawing board with you!**

sorry, I forgot to comment on "AS IN THE WHINERS WILL NO DOUBT HAVE THIS DELETED AS WELL!"

I have no idea of your frothings with this one. Spit in a teacup and give it to your pastor or whatever. I can neither delete your comments nor encourage others to do so with any hope of results.

Haven't you ever wondered understandme? Haven't you ever wondered?

My apologies, I realize above I suggested that there were likely many others whom agreed with my measure of UNDERSTANDME. Just prior I believe I could only speak for myself. Sorry to any and all that I was not speaking for, i.e. everyone but me. Cheers

Well, whooptidoo.

Methinks it is too easy for folks to be led in a tangential direction here. We were talking about coporationism/collateral damage/dead children/our decency or lack of it to the previously only inhabitants of our fair province, and now we are way into insult and counter-insult country. Do the goons in Victoria pay these derailers for stopping any synthesis of thoughts and convergence of people who give a damn? Let us keep on track. I was very interested in Kendra's thoughts, although I packed up and left my native country without the thought that I could be considered a pox on anyone's Earth, God's or the great spirit, for settling somewhere else and trying to put in my two bits to the common progress. I believe this can be remedied by showing some r.e.s.p.e.c.t., which I am certainly trying to do. We cannot expect other than hissing and spitting and some name-calling until everyone feels they have the foot under their own table. The question is, do we have the political will to do the necessary to effect equal footing. My bid: we must speak up. Our politicos will not do anything here, unless they think it can cost them votes not to (read: snout in public trough for me and my friends). Read them the riot act, between and on election days, nothing less will do.

Maybe this will be informative: UNDERSTANDME is scared of the mob (us). He surrounds himself with these capitals as a sort of protective runes. If it helps, do not dump on it, it isn't fair. Each to his own.

you're right dorothy. I apologize for taking up everyone's time and space venting my annoyance and making this personal. My apologies.

Bingo........another Couple Of Psuedo Intellectual Control Freaks.........pissing Their Pants,cause Others Won't Follow Their Asinine Conventions..

Sorta Like The Civil Servants That Want Laws/legislation So They Can Further Abuse Children/families They Cannot Control....

The Fact They Can Be Responsible For A Childs Death And Walk Away Without Any Repercussions...is Repugnant To Those Of Us That Understand What Justice Means...

Apparently ...jeremy And Dotty...are Not Interested In Justice...

Just The Fact ...that I Am Too Lazy To Hit The Locks Cap....

Like The Civil Servants Responsible For All Those Childrens Deaths...

They Disemble The Truth..........and Divert Attention !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, NoLeftNutter sure proves once again that corporate apologists and capitalist dictators have very little reality on which to justify their existence.

Three points:

First, lowering corporate taxes does nothing but decrease government revenues without any serious pick-up in economic activity or improvement in living standards. All it does is line the pockets of greedy elitists and bosses who fund the politicians who do these destructive things. That’s a proven fact.

Why? Because it isn't corporations or elite investment bureaucracies that create economic activity. Rather, it's the non-profit investment of consumer and tax dollars from mostly working people that do that. That's why when consumer spending or confidence falls, business leaders panic. That's why when wages fall, people get poorer, debt goes up, and the economy eventually stagnates.

Yet it's the same corporate dictators and clowns who are so dependent on consumer spending to create markets for them that are always trying to push down wages, roll back rights and freedoms and de-unionize the workforce. That's why these corporate power brokers are the ones who are responsible for our economic, social and ecological woes--not anyone else.

Second, this idea that lowering corporate taxes attracts foreign corporations is also bogus. Unless we are willing to drop our living standards, eliminate our democratic rights and freedoms, and wipe out our social safety net to the point of where we become one big sweatshop labour zone like the Third World, that simply won't happen.

Even if we did these horrid things, that still likely won't attract foreign corporations, since general these types get interested in Canada because of our relatively large high-wage consumer markets--the markets they need to bring them business. Wiping out our standards and cutting corporate taxes will only destroy our ability to create markets.

The only reason why corporate bosses demand tax cuts to avoid relocating outside the country is usually a form of blackmail they use as a bargaining chip to squeeze a few more bucks out of the public purse.

Third, the usual anti-socialist slander that corporate apologists put forward is also garbage. The fact is socialist economics don't just call for redistributing wealth on a more equitable basis.

They also call for the democratization of the economy and the businesses in it. Just simply taxing big corporations isn't enough, since they will simply threaten to move the money we make for them as workers and consumers to another jurisdiction.

What most socialists want at some level or another is to democratize corporations via enterprises like workers or consumer co-ops, union-sponsored ventures, employee ownership, community economic development, and varying degrees of public ownership and workers input via unionization, etc. That gives people not only more control over the businesses, but also the capital we create that makes up those businesses.

It's high time we got beyond just calling for fairer taxes and corporate responsibility and get back into pushing for economic democracy, the way the old CCF and Tommy Douglas did quite successfully.

A quick important note to Understandme:

The Fact They Can Be Responsible For A Childs Death And Walk Away Without Any Repercussions...is Repugnant To Those Of Us That Understand What Justice Means...

Wrong, sparky. It isn't the civil servants who are responsible for killing so many children.

Rather it's your fraudulently elected BC Liar regime that, contrary to its election promises, wiped out the Children's Commission set up by the NDP, and wiped out all sorts of funding to children and family services and eliminated all sorts of laws and rules that protected their rights.

They did this at almost exactly the same time as they doled out huge tax breaks and other un-earned goodies to the corporate elite that owns their party and funds their campaigns.

Add another historic achievement to the BC Liar regime: BC is now number one in not only child poverty, but number one in state-sanctioned child homicide.

If you really did know what justice means, you would realize that you and your Liberal lover/corporate apologist friends should die in those innocent kids’ place.

"It isn't the civil servants who are responsible for killing so many children.

Rather it's your fraudulently elected BC Liar regime..."

By golly,what are we doing?? never mind who is guilty unto death! Retribution is a bloody waste of time. Make the dead children mean something by turning the thoughts to what you and I can do to not have another one happen, right now, the next time we go outside our own door, and forever after, until it has been done better! All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. So lets not do nothing. Hacking and slashing and denigrating one another is doing nothing. Don't, in the words of Joe Hill, mourn. Organize!

HEY TYEE FAN !

ANOTHER EXPERT after reading one post...

people like you are what this world does not need any more of...HOLIER THAN THOU SANCTIMONIOUS MORONS SPEWING !!!

CIVIL SERVANTS that ABUSE the DISABLED...the CHILDREN...their FAMILIES...are the ones that the LAST POLITICIAN ASKED...and that the NEXT POLITICIAN WILL ASK...WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO ?

these OVERFED ...OVERPAID...SELF INTEREST...INCOMPETENTS....constantly as for one thing..........more money...not for the system...for themselves...

LOOK AT WHAT THESE CLOWNS GET PAID...AND IF YOU KILLED A KID OR WERE PARTY TO THAT KIND OF BULLSHIT...YOU WOULD PAY....

THEY DON'T PAY SQUAT...YET THEY ARE CULPABLE !!!

SMELL THE COFFEE MORON !

as an aside...always look when someone starts yappin bout JOE HILL...cuase ya know they got nothin ta say......THEY JUST WANNA BE HEARD !
and it's always been a call to brothers and sisters to come help....CAUSE THE PERSON IS VACANT AND NEEDS SOMEONE TO BAIL THEM OUT !!!

With all due respect to Dorothy, and to the legacy of Joe Hill, I do believe those who are responsible for an atrocity should be held accountable.

What this BC Liar regime has done to kids is an atrocity by any definition. As far as I'm concerned, the entire Liberal caucus, senior bureaucrats and the corporate inner circle that controls them should be up on charges of Criminally Negligent Homicide, as well as in civil court for gross electoral fraud under the Elections Act.

The fact is that their apologists and supporters keep trying to blame the frontline union workers, who are at best modestly paid, who blew the whistle on the all of the regime's cuts, including layoffs of all kinds of child welfare staff, that made this atrocity possible.

This shows the tremendous amount of support for injustice that comes from the corporate apologist sector. Understandme's raving ranting idiocy is an example. They are like religious fanatics with no sense of reason or ethics.

And, yep, I am very much into practical organizing and activism. I do this every day. But I see a key part of this is holding undemocratic authorities accountable for their rotten policies and actions.

that someone figures that the FRONTLINE workers are EXEMPT from the laws the rest of us have to follow shows you RABID UNION SELF INTEREST !

BUT THEN KILLING CHILDREN DOESN'T LOOK GOOD TO OTHER UNION BACKERS.........

ERGO.........UNION SPINMEISTERS EXCULPATING THEIR SWEET DEADBEAT BROTHERS AND SISTERS...
SAYING....DEY VAS ONLI FOLLOWINK ODERS...MEIN HERR !!! CAMPBELL IST DAS MAN YU VANTS..IST RICHTIG ???

THAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE...FROM HARCOURT/CLARK/DOSANJH/CAMPBELL...ALL GAVE ORDERS TO CUTBACK.........AND YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS DIS ....SQUAT !!!

EXCEPT COMPLAIN ...THEY WERE NOT PAID ENOUGH !!!

there is plenty of BLAME to go around...

WE HAVE TO FIX IT .....NOW!

IF I KICK YOU IN THE ASS HARD ENOUGH ...YOU WILL KICK THE NEXT PERSON INTO GEAR...ETC.ETC.

there is no time here to be POLITICALLY CORRECT!

MATTHEU VAUDRILL...was supposed to be the LAST VICTIM...............last count was 712 children on CAMPBELLS WATCH...

IF YOUR MEMBERS ARE DOING SO MUCH...

HOW COME PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF THESE ATROCITIES???

WHO IS BULLSHITTING WHOM ???

Typical Union Response...spit And Run !

Please keep on track here. What do you, UNDERSTANDME, suggest we do? How do we, either banded together or singly, do our daily part to stop the trashing of our best and most important resource? And don't get me wrong. Looking at that little girl in the picture, looking up, expectantly - at - what? a heavy hand that will bruise her, I see red and feel ill. But I cannot take them all away from those heavy hands, so what to do? When I meet what I believe to be callous indifference towards someone defenseless in my everyday life, I call it, and I take it on. Nobody leaves my presence feeling nobodied, if I can help it. How do we make that a community value? How do we make it socially unacceptable to behave in a psychopathic fashion towards our fellow human beings? From small time bullies to grossly self-serving 'social engineers', who kill by default, how do we 'deal with' them? It was incredible to me, that a government who could effect two frail elderly people being separated to die alone, could be re-elected. That that degree of careless cruelty - "sorry, it was not the intention", could go unpunished at the polls. We must, I guess, conclude that most people are prepared to accept 'collateral damage' as long as it is not them. What do we do about that? I do not know any other way than fighting them as you find them. Be a broken record. never get tired. If there is a way to turbo-jet ourselves to a better society, I haven't discovered it. Have you?

Kendra Newman (and no one else):
Your risen voice has the attention of one who is in the know. My eagle flies from the East and I can guarantee that within my lifetime, a great humility and shame will overshadow these lands before redemption, for the Earth Mother is angry with its inept stewards and theives. Only will those who pray to see our Mother heal in earnest, know our destiny.

My black bear feeds from the East with the Cougar, the Alligator, the Jaguar, the Racoon, and the dragonfly... with the Kermode within me, and the white tiger and ancient Raven above me. To the West I see the badger, the south, Ants, and the North, a butterfly tranforming into a whale. To my left is hyenna, and to my right, Armadillo. A water snake is below me... this didn't come my way through cards of chance.

I am an apprentice emmissary gathering strength for the spirit of Christ, native spirituality worldwide, and the sciences... evolving.

Do not take to heart, those with "isms" for now, or take their blindness as concensus. The biggots are easily seen as those who have self chosen "greater or lesser" solely because of their gender, age, race, creed, color, background, nation, physical form, beliefs...
so called succeeding at everyone elses expense.

Some are not yet born to their own awareness of purpose and origin. Many suffer from disfunctionality and suffer disease as babe's with stunted growth... from a water infection for being aware, but not caring enough for the life they are aware of including their own... a fire infection for swallowing lies and giving credit to that which will not last as long lasting does... air infections with those that know not how to communicate with respect and kind, and earthly diseases for not paying homage to their origins and environments, however blessed or cursed and almost always, it is the opposite of the way we think it is.

Nevertheless, I have a contention. None of us "own" these lands, for this world lies within the dominion of the great spirit. Our arguements of ownership (and to a lesser degree being here first) are moot. It's all on loan. To the Eagle and the bear. The Cougar and the dove. We are all here now. Where are the first born and immigrants love of this country supposed to go?

Natives are everywhere now from all races, wherever they were born... Is it wise to ask for 1000% to obtain 10? Ask for what is yours from the Great Spirit and you will get no less, and possibly a great deal more... Ask for what is reasonable, share your givings, and it shall be granted. Ask when your heart is right, when you've mastered what it takes to give and recieve.

Ask of Canada, the responsibility of steward, as your ancestors have in the past respected... to heal old wounds that have remained unhealed from long ago, through the honoring of contracts once broken. Share your wisdom, your love, collectively... and the nations will heal. Until then...

And should there be any morons dumb enough to trash this post... it was expected and will be remembered.

.

To the brain, and only the brain:

Do you now have, or have you ever had, children of your own?

.

Geeze ! I Guess I Am Just Going To Be A Broken Record And Say...we Gotta Fix This...now !

I May Sound Like A Moron To Some...but I Would Rather You Hear My Irritating Voice...than The Silence Of Funeral Processions Belonging To Children Who Could Not Fight Back !

We Are A Society That Is Looked Up To Around The World...when We Change Things Here...they Also Change Things There...we Are Influential In All Things...

I Am Using My Mind And Voicing My Outrage !
Everytime I Have The Opportunity,i Will Voice My Disgust!you Think I Shut Up ,when Not Typing My Posts Here Or On Other Sites ???
When I Get Groceries...when I Do Laundry..wherever I Can Work Into Conversation The Governments Incompetence....social Services Incompetence....childrens Deaths....the Lack Of Interest Becase They Are Marginalized...

I Gotta Brain...i Use It !!!

Now Why Don't You Use Your Gifts ???

Brain...i See You Are Using Your Gifts ...good On You !

Ciao !gonna Have A Beer And Watch Da Lympics

Thanks!

I thought so.

No turbo-jet.

Good hunting in the grocery line ups.

I'll take the bus-stops.

We continue to hold the Government of Canada, the RCMP, and the Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian and United Churches of Canada, and their officers, directly and personally liable and responsible for the deaths and disappearances of more than 50,000 of our children and relatives in their Indian Residential Schools, as well as for all of the tortures, suffering, pain and loss endured by the survivors of those schools and their descendents. (Program of The Truth Commission into Genocide in Canada, http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org )

dear POC04746160

I am looking for a message to me as a citizen who tries to be constructive, cares about all children living today, and believes if there is to be hope for the future, we can only find it by working together. If there is such a message in your input, I must confess I can't find it. Will you be helpful and explain to me, how I can use the information you provide?
Please!

Dear dorothy: admit past wrongdoings is the 1st step, sincere apology should follow, learning from the past may result in preventing future wrongdoings . . .

POC04746160

I was afraid you would say that. Not because I see a problem with apologies, or with the idea of learning. But because applying the idea of a learning process to this situation is so difficult, next to impossible.

Out among people, we can work on attitudes. We can alter them by example, by making people see and hear themselves, what they are saying and doing, and how that is counterproductive. They can be individually convinced to change their paradigms.

But here you are dealing with a ‘matrix’; with a big, complex web of weak and weaker people, who are getting along by successfully hiding behind each other and helping each other build a protective wall of platitudes and procedure.

The way I see it, these people are where they are, because they worked to get themselves into a position of power. Most people who strive for that do so, because they know that their stature cannot stand up to constant scrutiny, and they see the gaining of power as hopefully a shelter against scrutiny. I have very little hope that they, individually or as a whole, are capable of learning a darned thing. They are people with no imagination or initiative, and that is how our politicians prefer them.

A sincere apology seems such a simple request to people of honour. But people in those positions you mention would not know honour if it walked up and bit them. Or else there would be no reason to have this discussion at all.

You will no doubt get the retribution you seek. It is just that retribution leaves you with the same empty pain you had before. It is never enough. What of the future? What of the children who are with us now? Will it help them? Human life has become a cheap commodity; this is what you must work to reverse. There is no easy or quick way, and ‘they’ do not want you to succeed. If it looks like you may, they will import a bunch of people, who do not speak your language or share your culture.

That is the process we see happening in Denmark, now where the people has progressed to the point of saying no to getting more hacks. The private owners of their government cannot live with this, so their conservative Prime Minister has said kind of ‘we are sorry’ to the Muslims, which is a ‘back to you’ to the Danish workers. Civil servants are the same everywhere.

Yes, let us remember the children, beginning with Sherry Charlie and All the Aboriginal children who have been harmed or killed while in the care of the state. And Aho for mentioning the 50,000 Aboriginal children who died or went missing while in residential schools. (and many more who were brutally harmed.) And while we are at it let us remember the 500 missing Aboriginal women from Canada in the past 20 years. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4118/is_200504/ai_n13510210#continue
Lastly, let us remember the down right pathetic response to male violence against all women by the state (police, courts) This is an experience all woman can relate to through personal experience or through other women we know. This is a call to think about how you can help end male violence against women and children!

Aho, jtothemfk for your words and insight to what my heart and spirit already knows. I honour our sacred mother earth and know that I am a steward for her, as is my nation and all Aboriginal Nations! The connection is strong, spiritual, and integral to our very existence.

This life is my experience and I know the difficulties of expressing the realities of aboriginality and being a woman first hand. How can one ever truly know what one has never lived?

It was an absolute pleasure to read your post! There is much good medicine and thoughts to help me further develop my awareness and my good mind.

I wonder if David Schreck realized the article he wrote would go so far off a number of tracks. Sure makes it tough to read all the lines of thought going off in all directions.

Some of the writers are raving in their support of a government that supports corporations in a big way, others track off in other directions. This sort of discussion really doens't seem to ever sort much out. It's probrably about time to shut this thing down and start a new subject.
Some of the words are getting a bit tiresome and nasty. Reminds one of two or three kids saying. I'm right, you are wrong, no you are wrong and so on. Not really a debate.

“…PHD is Economics so must have a greater understanding of that field than those of us who just like to pick sides.”

and

“This sort of discussion really doens't seem to ever sort much out. It's probrably about time to shut this thing down and start a new subject.”

both quotes of DPL.
_ _ _

There are two ways these columns can evolve: We can shoot down/hail the writer according to our agreement or disagreement. Or we can use the column as a springboard for all sorts of constructive interchanges, brainstorming if you will, and I see that as an important function of the Tyee.

As for Mr. Shreck, I could care less about his titles. If he was an advisor for the NDP, he must be partly responsible for them losing. I blame them – and him - for getting us stuck with Gordo, for it was in their power to prevent it.

If there was a holistic, coherent plan in place for making BC function, which the family care program was part of, the NDP did not manage to make that clear. There was therefore no reason for the electorate to consider that an important point in deciding their vote.

We can accuse Gordo of many ugly things, but being inconsistent isn’t one of them. DPL, Mr. Shreck, and his erstwhile employers would do well to remember this one: “Do not study your own failures in order to improve. Study the successes of your enemy.” Gordo is a schoolteacher by profession. He speaks like one, he acts like one, and the ‘students’ lap it up. Get with the program, and, DPL, stop p.e.e.i.n.g on the electorate. That’s us. That’s me!

As I read all of the comments re: our current gov't spending, I realize that there are many people who love to stir the pot.

I am one of the many thousands of workers who are currently bargaining for a new contract. We lost many benefits last time and I do not see any hope for this time.

The gov't talks a good story, as usual, about how many billions of dollars there are for everyone. But they do not say that this money is from the cuts that have already been done with P 3's etc. We should all understand that any cuts to any wages, benefits etc. affects everyone but the corporations. If wages are lowered, which happened 5 years ago, then there are less dollars being spent at businesses and people flock to the big chain stores or thrift
stores just to get by.

THIS IS A COMMUNITY PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!

Many people forget that the jobs lost are ones that people can get by on the wages. These are being replaced by minimum wage jobs. Anyone who supports the Liberals obviously has the means to live a fairly good life without worries. I dare you to live on minimum wages for a year and try to pay bills that have cost increases constantly let alone pay for your mortgage or rent. I dare YOU to live in a cheap motel that you can't even move around in just to keep warm.

Gordon Campbell has decimated our society. The ministry of children and families should be ashamed. Children should not die in foster care and a tax cut for Campbell's corporate buddies should not happen at all, let alone come before money is put where it should be.

[B]

Ladyheather, you have misunderstood what I am saying.

I am not occupying myself with the contents or value of the political agendas of the Liberals or the NDP, respectively. I am simply rating their performance in communicating those agendas to the electorate in a concise and confidence-inspiring manner. From where I am sitting, which is the tax-paying end of things, I expect my money to go into properly planned spending, so that someone can tell me exactly how and why every dollar is given out, particularly why. I want to know their priorities and rationales, so I can hold them accountable for the expected results materializing – or not. If there is not enough money to take care of already troubled children and also do right by the ‘regular’ ones education-wise, I want to know how and where they will ‘cut it’. And so on.

The NDP needs to quit the notion, that as long as we all have our hearts in the right place, everything will be OK. They need to understand that without clear and thorough planning and presentation of that planning, they may not get to be the government next time.

I do not hope to see anyone slap their derrieres into the seats of government without putting some work into getting there. It is a matter of trust, and they must earn it.