Geez non-working man, I had no issue with your post as you seemed to have some understanding of realpolitik in Canada. No issue, that is, until your ignorant, gratuitous, and uneccessary shot at union political activity. Uneccessary, unless your agenda is slanted against real working people.

In other posts I have clearly taken issue with what I see as the shortcomings of large unions. In short, large unions have taken on a corporate structure, complete with the dimunition of rank and file influence and cult of personality, self-serving executive authority and renewal. Sound familiar non-working man?

When was the last time a small stockholder was asked for permission to give corporate money and/or resources from the corporation to the Lieberals or the neo-Cons? How often do we see the entrenchment of CEO's, COO's, CFO's, et al in a corporate environment? How often do these geniuses (genii?) continue to reap obscene salaries and Boards of Directors continue to collect money for supporting business decisions that would be laughed at by anyone intent on actually running a business as a money-making enterprise (hello Nortel).

So non-working man, if you want to crap on unions making decisions to send money to the NDP of anyone else they deem to be acting in the interest of union members, you better be prepared to crap on corporations doing the same thing thing for the elites. Otherwise your agenda is not as hidden as you might like.

But, I am not holding my breath for a quid pro quo from you.

wallace, whom do you think name calling reflects on?

I make my point repeatedly and of course lefties cannot get it:

You have never formed a government. You are locked at voter levels of more than 40 years ago. Is there something you have done wrong?

Blaming faceless "neo-cons" is simply a cop-out.

If he gets in and I still don't believe it, he will not maintain the status quo. He and his gang are nothing but henchman. They would buy off enough MPs to ram through whatever they chose. Think there aren't enough neo-con Liberals with no morality in the party for that to come to pass?

If he wins. Canada loses.

non-working man, I am not surprised that you would not respond the point. And, the point was not who formed any government over the years. Because you seem incapapble of getting beyond your bias, here is the point un single syllables:

If it is wrong for a union executive to spend the members' money on political campaigns, it is wrong for corporations to do the same.

You obviously lack the integrity to admit your obvious bias, or the intellect to understand the point. Your choice, non-working man.

Working Dude,

Your crystal ball looks accurate, including the assertion that the Libs will use the private health care agenda of the Tories as a campaign booster, yet will do nothing to halt the spread of private care when they return to office.

But your parting shot at union dues and the NDP misses the mark. There have been several stories on the Tyee over the past year about campaign funding, and while it remains the case that some unions (not all) donate to the NDP, the other parties enjoy a considerably higher level of funding from corporate donors, both in the relative and absolute sense.

Also, I am not sure that the NDP could be considered failures on the federal scene. Consider where all three parties stood 50 years ago. Now look at our country and the role government plays in our lives. Ask yourself: whose vision was implemented? It's not even a contest. The only major NDP policy from that era not to be implemented was their idea to nationalize one of the major banks, an idea made irrelevant by the flourishing of credit unions and trust companies. The NDP did not need to be elected in order to change the landscape.

Heck, the most influential politician of the past decade and a half is probably Preston Manning. His party ran on a platform of fiscal conservatism, stressing the need to cut transfers to both individuals and provinces. And that was exactly what Paul Martin did as Finance Minister.

For the record, I am slightly right of center on most federal issues, and therefore support the Liberals, generally speaking. But they need to be spanked this time.

Too bad the Tories cannot squelch the wing-nuts in their party. I, like most voters, worry about a Conservative majority, because, alas, those wing-nuts are not likely to be confined to the back benches.

I would like to see an article that examines the NDP's pattern of success across the country because some questions need to be asked. An example: why so little success east of Ontario?

My first choice for Monday: Tory minority. My last choice: Tory majority.

My fingers and toes are crossed.

So this is what it's come down to, a truly a sad state of affairs. A population ready to turn on a dime the direction of our relatively socially progressive country (which has been slowly but surely stripped down for 20 years by cons and socalled libs alike) toward Amercan style ultra conservatisim. The need for Proportional Representation couldn't be clearer and I certainly am very skeptical of any of the major parties championing this cause. Lets all give our heads a collective shake and make a vote for Canada.
I would be voting strategically but it is moot in my riding so I'll be voting with my heart and for the Canadian Action Party who I believe best represents my voice and the voice for a strong, just, independent, forward looking Canada.
Cheers

The rhetoric is old and bland, just like NDP canditates, wallace. Get some new ideas and you might some day form a government. I doubt it, though.

In the meanwhile wallace, you only have two more days to wait until payday.

As someone who suffered through the theft of the US Presidency by Bush, I can only say that you are naive to think that a Harper win will merely yield the status quo. You forget who has funded and has acted as the "behind the scenes" mouthpiece for Harper--the US Neo-Conservative Christian Right.

Nader spoiled it for the US, and, emboldened, the Bush neo-conservatives has taken to writing their own version of the truth.

I left the US, embraced the progressive reforms of Canada, and now I find them falling by the wayside. This is a pivotal election, and if Harper wins, watch for Canada to continue to privatize, as women lose their rights, we lose our health care, our environment, and our acceptance of cultural diversity.

The Supreme Court of Canada ( SCC ) has ruled that our universal medicare is killing people by making them wait an unreasonable time for health care.
Now, what would we do if they find our entire universal medical care system as being a violation of the Charter ?
We would be asking Parliament to enact this clause immediately.
What if the SSC found income tax unconstitutional ?
Is is actually, but we would again be crying to the Govt. to enact the clause.
Now the NDP haven't really clarified their position on this, and we know where the Liberals stand.
Giving ultimate power to a group of unelected judges, who think that those with morals should just take a pill and accept the debauchery of our society is a grave error.
Vote Conservative to stop this.

And I disagree. This looks like deliberate ignorance of history to me. The CCF/NDP has been the minority voice in this country since 1933. We have, in fact, formed most of the social(ist) direction while working in the capacity of what the media pundits have referred to as "propping up governments". Every good idea populace-based idea has been borrowed by both Liberal and Conservative governments. The latest example was Jack Layton's budget. Personally, I don't mind how many ideas the rulers steal from us paupers. I just wish the Greens would steal a few more. They have a future, but no present as far as I can see. The planet can't wait a hundred years.

I don't anticipate the seventh generation of my children's children being around in a hundred years unless something changes here and now. The Greens can't do it. It's nothing but protest against whatever bitter experiences you've had with the NDP in past.

They did not need to be elected. But they did need to leverage influence with a party that actually held political power.

Which they never will . . .

Layton likewise for Canada.

Conservative religious enthusiasts are Satanists posing as Christians. They spit in the face of Christ and call it righteousness.

Hey, Rafe:

Although you and I are in agreement that the environment is to us, the number one issue regardless of who thinks it is in this campaign, (mainly because when I say environment, I mean everything, as everything belongs to environments. Physical, social, economical, , mental, emotional, spiritual), it is also about the ability to govern effectively.

This isn't to say that young college students can't learn, its to say that they have alot of catching up to do. Are you willing to take this chance on colors over individuals? Quebec did with every politician involved with Montgomery and now, Federalism is paying for it. Would you like us to pay for inexperience?

Technically in BC, rural ridings are overall going Con, Okanagan is going Con, Vancouver is going NDP and Lib, Island is split up.

There are some standout Green candidates that we are all overlooking in this election. The top 6 are well known for their environmental contributions, some world wide:

Scott Leyland (BC Southern Int.)

Scott is running against Bill Profili Lib, and Adam Atamanenko NDP. There is no risk of splitting a left right vote here (Derek Zeisman country). All three candidates can do the job for Canadians. Why not Scott?

David Wright ((Nainimo-Alberni)

David is likely our best chance to win. His efforts are internationally known. He’s running against James Lunney, but could split the vote with Nanjeet Uppal from the NDP to allow "hoof in mouth" Lunney to win again.

Jim Stephenson (North Van)

Unfortunately, the left and moderate vote is needed to pool against Cindy Silver on this one. Look for Don Bell to win again.

Richard Mathias (Richmond)

Running against religious extremist, Darrel Reid. This is Ray Chan's riding, a riding that is heavily oriental. Smart money says Chan wins again, dispite what bias papers say.

Robert Hornsey (Pitt Meadows-Mapleridge-Mission)
Horsey is facing Randy Kamp Con (Inc), and Mike Bocking, NDP. Robert could pull an upset but again, he risks splitting the vote for a Con victory.

Micheal Mascall (Vancouver Island North)

Unsurprisingly, some voters don’t favor Micheals chairman position in the Sierra club (BC chapter), or the conflict of interest of this clubs (Canada wide) endorsement of the Greens) Micheal has made some dumb remarks... at least, according to the NDP. The NDP also has a good candidate in this riding. My fear is a split vote and Con victory.
The rest can hold their own:
Ray Power
Roy Whyte
Henry Jansen
Angela Reid
Clemens Werhoeven
Daran Bowyer
Ariel Lade
Andrew Lewis
Arno Schortinghuis
Silvaine Zimmerman
Mike Robinson

The sad part is, we likely won't elect one.

There are 7 females running, in line with party averages. The NDP has the most running in BC.

This communication is not a putdown, on all the good works, activists do between elections.

At put up or shut up (election), time it's really amazing to see so many activists,and members of fringe parties with different intentions,motivated, focused,determined to do their own thing at the expense of what should be the common goal.

In our present society that means working within the present system, defeating the two Bay Street right wing political party's at the polls, then when POWER has changed hands, effecting the change that will benefit the majority of Canadians.
The activists run around with their pet projects, saying I have the solution, solve my project first.
In other words their agenda is the most important and like children throw a tantrum when they find out, most do not agree with them.

In essence these activists are (using the vernacular) whiners, and would rather go down fighting, take the socialists with them, rather than seeking incremental change as the voting public becomes informed, eventually realize how they have been hoodwinked by the Liberals and Conservatives and then decide to change their vote.

Now, I will admit, as long as the country's communications are controlled by those (corporate families) who do not want to see change, it will be a hell of a fight.
However for all the diverse groups that make up the Left, fighting amongst ourselves, as to who has the right answer, is self defeating.

We have a group of politicians ,wealthy persons, and Corporations across Canada, led by the Canadian Council of Chief Executives who by their actions are selling out Canada, in my mind, they are worse than Vidkun Quiisling, the Norwegian traitor.

In the foreseeable future, their is only one electoral party, who has the election troops on the ground, the ability to raise large amounts of money and a dedicated core of national supporters who will not go away.

Wishful thinking will not solve our common problem, so either climb aboard or help the two major parties stay in power.
Jack Layton is right, at election time, lend us your vote.

It's your choice.

United we stand,or divided, we fall

Red Herring

Kinda fun watching Working Man and Wallace insulting each other, but somehow they wound up talking about the NDP, and not the Greens (a typical NDP tactic re the Greens, actually).

Rafe's right on, as other posts of mine on the Tyee's Election Central, about the $1.75 thing, which is one of the big rhetorical "the Greens are only running because they want money" line that the NDP propagandists have put out. But voting for the future is even more important than helping the party have enough money for the next election battle (sometime by the end of 2007, if a minority after tomorrow). And, though I support Harris, for the party members who have whined and bleated in public about not liking him and also therefore not campaigning for the party were ideologically-driven fools. It doesn't matter who's carrying the banner at the moment; it matters that there's a banner at all.

And yeah, someone above made a comment that the NDP are still at the voter levels they were at 40 years ago. And that vote has not appreciably increased by the the NDP adding the environment to their platform during that time (originally the diehard dialectical materialists in front of party ideology no doubt couldn't reckon with sometbing being more important than "the ownership of the means of production", i.e. the nature of the means of production turned out to be the most important at all). And on environmental issues I've watched BC continue to be clearcut under the NDP during the 1990s, and a proliferation of fish farms and so on; they've were complete and unadulterated DUDS as as "green" party.

Someone above says something like the real Green vote is an NDP vote; this is just self-serving and completely unadulterated horseshit, given the NDP's record in BC, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and (once upon a time) Ontario. If the NDP were a green-oriented party, well, coulda fooled me when looking at the ongoing urban sprawl, deforestation, and the City of Victoria's sewage outfall into the Strait of Juan de Fuca. And while we got a few new parks, enough didn't get done that the NDP had claimed they would do that indicates that their alliance with the forest unions is just every bit as strong as the Socred/Liberal alliance with the forest companies.

And one line from somewhere above caught my attention: "Many people vote Green because they assume it is more grass roots, more democratic, than the others"

How many is that? The people who yelled and screamed at others for allegedly not supporting the principle of "consensus" during the party's formative years? The "don't take part in elections" faction of the party? The "we don't want the party to have a leader" faction? The "we don't like ex-Tories/corporate types/people who don't wear Birkenstocks" faction?

People vote Green because they want to move environmental issues - the global environmental crisis - to the top of the agenda, and they want to signal that they are not happy with the same tired old crap coming out of the same tired old parties.

"Grassroots" is a loaded word in politics; it also describes the kind of people who showed up at BC Social Credit conventions - the golf plaids, the patent-leather-with buckle white shoes, the populist hordes from the ghettos of Abbotsford and Kelowna. They were "grassroots" too.

Be careful what you wish for. The party grassroots, with the right membership drive, could wind up looking a lot like the Socreds in terms of who's in it (not in terms of policy). The very same people are looking for a cause to believe in, for someone to believe in, and they care very much about the world their grandchildren are to be raised in. This is why they get so heated about gun control and crime; but the same motivation is why they are angry and afraid about the environment.

Just fully read Rafe'S comments.
I'm glad that another out & out Right-winger has joined Jim Harris's Party, by voting for him '

It's all about money isn't it Rafe?

We all know a leopard can't change it's spots.

Red Herring

Bluenose
Your comment, that I took to say, that only ( or maybe not even 'only' ) Conservative Christians are Satanic. Is exactly what I expect to hear from bigoted, elitist, liberal losers who have nothing else intelligent to say, at this time.

(cont)

So what are you going to do, hard Greenies, if such people start signing up and giving the party not only a stronger "blue" tint, but some blue hair as well? Could it be that Quadra or West Vancouver, among the richest communities in the country, will ultimately be the ones to put Greens in the House? Probably, if not this time around, but eventually. Why? Because they're educated, their kids are well-travelled, their grand-kids are well-travelled, they live where they live because they love the greenery and they're really, really NIMBY about local environmental stuff.

The key codeword here remains "grassroots" and "bottom up". The people who invoke those lines are generally those who assume that other people SHOULD learn to think like they do, and consider that somehow THEY are the grassroots while others who do not think like them are NOT.

Again, one good membership drive and candidate-recruitment drive, and the ideological ties to the German Greens, can be left behind and a CANADIAN version of Green-ness can be evolved in its native environment, instead of using a steamer-trunk of the post-Marxian baggage that may be politically viable in Germany, but has no political/electoral relevance in Canada.

And, one last thing, the original Green Party grassroots were from all political stripes; they're the grassroots too; but the people who use "grassroots" don't think of them that way, instead getting into nasty and paranoid rhetoric when someone's background as a Tory or Grit is trotted out to attack them. "Grassroots" people don't believe in democracy, unless its results agree with what THEY want.

Spider Robinson's election eve letter.
Found on a babble post. The difference that is Canada...

http://drakkenfyre.livejournal.com/

Yah, Red Herring:

I'm sure Rafe is a billionaire who types out articles about the environment simply to satify his intellectual vanity. Sure. You know, I like leopards...

And the Green party is so rich after getting 1.1 mil from the government to run 308 candidates country wide. Whats that... 3500 per riding? Lots of money there...

Sometimes Friendly Giant:

You've explained it best so far in this thread of thought. Excellent post. ;-)

Poor little non-working man. Reduced to little elliot style non-responses and he thinks that his bon mots masquerade at intellegent debate. Last chance non-working man. I will make it easy for you by asking a simple question:

Why is it not OK for unions to use dues money and resources in suport of a political party, when it IS OK for corporations to use money and resources that belong to the shareholders?

Simple question non-working man. How about a simple answer, rather than your usual deflection and rhetoric.

Sorry you seemed to have missed my point as well SFG. I am not talking about the NDP, except as it is a party in our non-competitive electoral system.

My point is that we must level the playing field in what passes for democracy in the Balkans North. No union donations and no corporate donations. Surely the Green Party will benefit when union and corporate strings are cut. Otherwise, this fraud will continue.

I read all these comments and am amazed that they seem to reflect politics of the 80s.

This is a new ballgame. Not 1980.

There are some decent people in the Liberal Party, but without EFFECTIVE Whistle Blower Protection law [bill C-11], those decent people could not report the massive extent of Liberal theft and channelling of our public monies.

The primary goal of this election is to put in place the people who are going to install and enforce law like Whistle Blower protection and individual Ministry accounting and audits.

These laws will provide us with more efficient and honest governments for years to come, no matter who sits in the house.

If there are nagging nellies in the CPC who want to make a fuss about bill-c38, same sex, abortion and public morals, I hope Harper keeps them on the back burner until our machinery of government is properly repaired along with the armed forces.

We can not afford to squabble while China, India, Iran Venezuala and the Jihad get their agendas in order.

I support Raif*s choice. Later when repairs are made, an ideal house of commons will consist mainly of the CPC and the Greens.

The Greens are big in Europe and rightly so. We are still stumbling along in 1985. TG

Good points on the environment Rafe however I believe that you are very wrong on Harper. The Conservatives appear to me to be the reform/alliance with all of the traditional conservatives fooling themselves that this is the old centre right party. If Harper is elected, majority or minority (he'll get support from the Bloc as this aids "sovereignty association" (wall around Alberta style and will make changes rapidly and decisively faster than people can believe and respond to on a number of fronts.

The Liberal responce won't matter, the country will have shifted and it will be a mess to fix.

Thanks Raif for saying it like it needs to be said. Voting Green is not a wasted vote, it is an investment in our collective futures. Even if they don't get a single seat this time, their efforts will pay off.

I would not be surprised if they break the 1 million vote threshold this election with so many still undecided on the eve of the election. The other parties are starting to sound more and more like the Green platform in regards to the environment, and I would expect that to continue if they do indeed break a million votes.

I am voting Green and so is pretty much everyone I know. The old-line three have had their chances, they don't deserve further support.

wally-boy; i'm suspecting that your penchant for calling everyone 'little' may signal a particular problem with your package. there are machines out there for that ya' know.

(non)Workingman (and others) might take note of new federal election regulations that pretty much eliminate union contributions in cash or any other way to political campaigns.

Money raised by the NDP in this campaign is, apart from the government subsidy of $1.75 per vote, raised entirely from individual contributions (that are also generously subsidized by tax refunds to donors.)

That's the federal scene. Provincially there are not the same restrictions, but the NDP still gets 90% of their money from donations from individual people. The Liberals, on the other hand, get substantially more than half their bucks from corporate donations.

Check your facts. Unions have always generously to the NDP (to little avail, I may add). For example:

The NDP's 2004 financial records released Monday by Elections Canada also show a $300,000 loan from the Canadian Labour Congress

The only reason the CLC has not given directly to the NDP this time was the Election Funding reforms of 2004. A nice parting gift, however:

Dlection funding after the passage of bill C-24 is now based on a federal funding formula of $1.75 per vote, whch is why Millionaire Socialist Jack Layton is pushing so hard because the NDP will huge drop in the cash it had available next around. However, the CLC made sure the war chest was brimming for this election:

You can bet well paid union bosses channel a fair bit of the salaries into that kitty, all tax deductible and no doubt made up with generous "bonus payments."

Added to that, the CLC bankrolled 100% of the NDP's TV ads.

In fact, for the amount of seats gained, the NDP spends WAAAAAAYYY more than any other party for the least amount of success.

Sorry, cassandra, you can call me names but I can call you: LIAR

Scources:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/07/06/1119330-sun.html

http://canadianlabour.ca/index.php/capacity_building_fo

From the CLC Website:

What parties? Only one. A rough translation would be;

That is all providing that misguided 85% will listen to you because time and time again they have told you that the NDP is just an interest group for the CLC and is full of crap.

Workingman or non-workingman, whatever, you're just confirming what I said. Under the new legislation the NDP gets its money from individual donations, including, undoubtedly, individual trade union officers, working people, unemployed, students, and retired old farts like me.

Nice to see the NDP got itself a nice office, and that Jack is well taken care of.

One more item, Working Man, it's illegal for the CLC to buy tv ads for the NDP. You sound like you might just be the guy to call the RCMP about it, not being much of a CLC fan.

Prisoners in Federal institutions, just got a $250.00 cheque from the Fed's for an energy rebate of some kind.
I don't they pay for Hydro, do they ?
What are you willing to accept from this Liberal Govt. ?

Cassandra, don't take nonWorking Guy very seriously.

The poor fool has been ranting about Ed Broadbent's campaign here on Tyee for weeks.

It's embarrassing when we have to remind him several times a week that Ed Broadbent announced in early summer he would be stepping down.

Seems some of these bewildered rightwing Liberals break into a sweat any time Broadbent speaks.

Tony Guitar, the Greens are bigger in Europe for one reason.

The Euro-Greens are true environmental greens whereas our bleached out Greens here are a conservative party with a former Conservative Party bagman leader living a pretty good lifestyle on the backs of those who thought he was clean.

It seems the real environmentalists and activists have pulled up roots now that Tory hues of blue are beginning to shine off the party brass.

Rafe, your vote isn't wasted because I suspect you would have voted Conservative if the Greens were not there.

Your claims, when you began to write for the Tyee of having evolved into a Socialist in your latter years now seem quite hollow.

Oh well, it got you a few paycheques feeding that line to the lefties. I suppose you're going to have to re-invent yourself again, though.

I'm voting for Michael Crawford (NDP) in Kamloops because he has the best chance of ousting Reform/Alliance/Conservative Betty Hinton.

Hinton, who ran away with the seat last election appears to be suffering from falling support this time, although she does hold an 8 or 9 % lead in a smallmedia sponsored poll put out late last week.

The Green guy, a rather pleasant young fellow, is forced to use generic Green signs as little of the head office money has made it into the riding.

No doubt, Hinton is counting on the Greens to pull just enough progressive vote to frustrate the NDP or Liberals.

Thhe disappointing thing about marginal parties is that can be influenced so strongly by just one small inner group that has it's own agenda.

Ron Irwin: Prove it.

Allan: Micheal Crawford should win it. He is by far, a better candidate. Anyone who removes the colored glasses would vote this man in, hands down, but voter intelligence remains to be seen.

Nonsense, Ron. To get the rebate, you either have to be receiving GAIN or the CCTB.

Get your facts straight.

Voter intelligence. Oxy moron.

I don't know the history of the NDP. So my wishes for their success are based on the same as my hopes for the Greens. For the workers, the grassroots and the activists who have educated themselves on the issues. I watched the Reform party birth in Alberta. It's based on wealth and the continuation of wealth creation. It's short sited, even in Alberta where they will continue selling tar sands as long as you and I drive cars. This is their prosperity, without oil you have Saskatchewan. Anyone who is a moderate conservative believes in less government and wants to keep more of their hard earned money. This cup is overflowing in Alberta where headhunters search for bus boys, and no one can understand why the Alberta advantage can't work in Newfoundland. This short sightedness is not exclusive to Alberta. They just have the conditions for exploiting these resources for high profit right now. Isn't it brave of the wealthy to spew their wisdom of less government and more money for the working man. Like the children born with silver and golden spoons, telling us how the world should really work, when none of them can see past 5 years down the road. Or past their own bank balance. As long as they are working, making money, then by god everyone else better just get busy. This is conservatism, the Liberals have enjoyed the power base becasue they at least have honored minority rights. That's the democratic way. But abuse that power and we get to where we are now. It's selfish plain and simple. I speak with Albertans all the time. They want the money now, for them and their children. They think it's their payoff. Like I said, it's not an exclusive Alberta attitude, or is it exclusively conservative. Without a shift from this type of thinking to a more strategic model of sustainability we can probably kiss all the wealth goodbye! That's why it's selfish, shortsighted and stupid. People vote for their own prosperity. Until that changes, we fringe parties will continue to hope and pray that one day the masses will figure it out. The numbers seem to be growing in our favour. If the conservatives can form an alliance why not our side? NDP/Green/Action all need to seize this opportunity for the next 2 elections. Form and develop strategy and policy for the next election then in ten years be ready to govern. All the while we sit back and pray it's not too little too late. Until the merger/alliance of our side, you have no choice but to vote green. You have to send the message that some voters are indeed educating themselves.

Is their a Dolphin Party?

Any vote cast is not a wasted vote-it is your vote!!!!!!!!! and very vote is counted!!!

Allan: looks like we are voting for the same person.
As I was driving 22kms to the polling station I was thinking just how bad I wanted the two larger parties out. I thought, how sweet it must be for the pro business parties to allow a huge increase in fuel, and then make me drive 22 kms to vote them out.
My vote isn't wasted either and if a few million people in this country are aware of what happens under the cons and libs they just may vote for the other two parties and turf these people out of office.

My breif encounter with the Cons came back when there was a movement to prevent the Liberals from initiating the gun control. As I am vehemently opposed to this Nazi style of repression I donated 5 bucks to a movement. The next thing I know I was being bombarded with requests from the reform party and a bunch of religious fanatics. Not being a person who follows organized religion you can imagine how well that sat with me.

There should be.

Good post clubofrome. You got that Alberta Advantage thing in Newfoundland from CBC's National?

You call it democracy when 61% of the voting population in 2004 can elect a majority governmen t with 37% of the ballots (as in the UK in May) and appoint party hacks to an unelected legislative body (the Senate)which we pay for? Change the electoral system for starters! Devolve power to the provinces and municipalities. Elect the Senate (as if we need one), something which has been talked to death in this country (tried and failed in Alberta during the last provincial election when Martin refused to appoint the elected...some democracy), but not as long as the debate on decriminalization or legalization (LeDain Commission suggested in 1971)of pot. So now we are going to elect this nut who is just soft pedalling his agenda

Uh-huh. It was written in response to your own intelligent observation about

Christ said 'My kingdom is not of this world' but for almost two thousand years most of his so-called followers have been obsessed with obtaining power over and exercising control of as many people and public institutions as possible. The constant desire for power and control over the lives of others characterizes the economic and social objectives of the Moles of Satan (i.e. fundamentalist religious enthusiasts who betray the life and witness of their teacher under the guise of implementing his spiritual system). Jesus has been betrayed by his so-called followers, Mohammed by his, Nanak by his, etc. So-called Christian conservatives are just quisling infiltrators who serve the interests of Satan while mouthing the words of Christ.

I saw that CBC show. What got me is they presented the homeless shelter as a success!!!!

Alberta's system is an abject failure because of the huge number of homelessness. duh!

Also, the Horatio Alger myth sure has seeped over the border into Alta and they are shockingly ignorant that the difference between Newfoundland and them is only that the resource has not yet run out.

Boy are they in for a shock.

and they...not 'them'

Well, Bluenose, I'll agree in that nowhere in the bible does it say, 'deny me' so you can get elected and force me on the multitudes. No. Just the opposite. It says it is better to go pray in a closet than making a big to do about your 'faith'. It says it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven. It says woe to those who hurt the children and the widows. It says, render onto Caesar that which is his. Be in the world not of the world and on and on.
Something sure is amiss in this new movement that's for sure!

Jesus also said by their fruits ye shall know them. And, the vine is not different than the root. He gave ways of discerning what was real and what was as he said false prophets using his name. I don't know why people who claim to believe everything in the bible ignore this.

You've got that right, ClubofRome:

It is selfish, plain and simple. Albertans are talking about 70 to 80% support of the Cons. Talk about blue colored glasses. They'll get a minimum 60% and 65 to 70 is in the ball park. Considering what their entire fiscal agenda is...

Give rich and oil companies tax cuts...

Alta would break up this country if they had BC's support. With the politics and media Cons have now controlling the herd by telling them everything they they want to hear, Albertans would try it down the road with BC support and is it short sighted?

Last I looked I was a proud Canadian, proud because I know that there are 7 out of 10 individuals who believe in equality, fairness, life, Canadians who believe in prosperity at no one elses expense! And for as long as I know where my countrymen/women stand, I could give to shits for some deluded, misguided kraut redneck cowboy with an ear for a Calgary nut professor and pockets for $$ bankrolls from oil.

I'm giving this ragtag band of misfit Cons a Joe Clark term. I see their 115 - 120 seats, if they get this much, as trying to pass their strong suit first, which would be "Government Reform!"

Which bill is it, there are so many they have ready... I think its one of three they actually have ready to propose. It should be filled with some trickery, and they'll laud themselves as the "saviors of justice", when we've known that it wasn't a whistle blower or party allegation that led to Montgomery... it was the auditor general!

And the PC's will trump up the bought media from fresh oil and church cheques and they'll try to get party support from the rest to pass their bills, but they won't get anywhere, because the rest of their legislation, if not this bill alone, sucks! Its filled with self interests, filled with a rich mans greed.

I see another election late this year, better, more informed voters, better candidates, and as a result, a better Canada. The whiners will whine, but I'm all smiles on this end.
;-)

Yes, that would be one recent example of the Alberta Advantage! We found that episode very sad when the one man said we are waiting for the return of the cod fish. "The cod were our way of life and we need to get that back..." "as long as there are two cod left in the sea there's a chance they'll come back..." Me thinks he'll be waiting a while longer!

I like the CBC's coverage, especially the new wave of the future "the Hour." Even people who normally hate the news are tuning into George. Getting back to our neighbours... Of course the Alberta advantage has been a phrase used for years to lure business away from other provinces. I think it's dangerous when all that wealth goes to their heads and they start believing it's because they're doing things right. Hey look at me, I can start a business in Alberta! How impressive....
Funny stuff eh Frank?

Good posts, Bluenose, Redrivergirl, bpither1:

I'm voting Green today, cause I'm voting without fear of a Con Majority government, and that sits well with me! (Thanks, Gilles Duceppe)

Grass roots... I've seen the grass roots of the Cons. I've seen the Grass roots of the NDP. I'll take that chance on imperfect humanities efforts on the environment and then some. It's time.

Always knew that Rafe Mair was a bit of a wing-nut. To vote for a candidate whom you have never heard of, based on some rationale that "they have principles, one of which, saving the environment, is the very top of their list" shows either a massive sense of naivete, or is the result of not having bothered to research his vote.

The Green Party, under the present leadership, is not a friend of the environment that Rafe suggests. In a 2004 Tyee analysis of the Green Party platform, Murray Dobbin wrote: “One of the most remarkable aspects of the Green platform is the lack of any commitment to government legislation or regulation to accomplish core environmental goals.”

The party, under the leadership of former Tory Jim Harris, has supported the ISO 14000 certification,which Dobbin describes as having "been almost universally condemned by the international environmental movement
as ineffective and unreliable."

Dobbin described the policies of the Greens as, "a Conservative alternative, not a social democratic one. Its fiscal, economic and environmental policies would be a near perfect
fit for the old Progressive Conservative party.”

A close look at the Green Party shows a party that sports a sugary thin green shell, which disguises a disntinclty sour conservative core.

Do your homework, Rafe. Don't spend your privileged position on the Tyee and in provincial media to misinform voters, based on your own willful ignorance. We deserve better.

The Euro-Greens are true environmental greens whereas our bleached out Greens here are a conservative party with a former Conservative Party bagman leader living a pretty good lifestyle on the backs of those who thought he was clean.

It seems the real environmentalists and activists have pulled up roots now that Tory hues of blue are beginning to shine off the party brass.

This is a myth. The Greens in Europe have the same issues as the Greens here. There are red and blue leaning greens there too, and it is a good thing. We need buisiness and labour both at the table if we are going to tackle these kind of issues. The head of the German Greens has formed coalitions with both the Social and Christian Democrats. The world wide assosiation of Green Parties all agree to the same principals.

The Green view on the right/left paradigm is really very simple. Here is a poorly written parable for ya'll:

Say you just walked out of an airport, you know where you have to go. You see a Red Cab and a Blue Cab waiting right outside the door. You get into the Red Cab and give your directions. He turns left, and then left again, you explain that he needs to turn right at the next exit, but he turns left anyways, and then left again. You are now back where you started. So you get out of the cab, slam the door and get in the Blue Cab, wondering why you would pay someone to do such a crappy job. Off you go in the blue cab after he assures you that he can turn left and right, and he turns right and right and right and right again! And once again you are right back where you were, frazzled and feeling used.

Now you have a choice, Red Cab or Blue Cab... but a little further along you come across the Green Cab. Feeling a bit leary of the cab companies in this town you ask him whether he turns right or left. He replies, "It really depends on where I'm trying to get you. All I really care about is that my cab runs on bio-diesel and that I can mabye smoke one in the privacy of my own home when I get off work!"

Really, who wouldn't get in the Green Cab!

So the ideolouges rant about left and right policys and get into little tug-o-wars over the word "progressive". I don't really care. They are both so wound up in thier little industrial era paradigm that they are totally incapable of doing what actually needs to be done!

And that is why I vote Green.

Hey Krispy:

Ever think that Dobbin might have his own agenda?

1. Harris was clear at the CBC forum: We will force compliance on issues of pollution and public health and safety.

2. The Greens are hands down approved as the best environmental choice for this election. Sierra Club and others have all endorsed this platform. If you can find one that hasn't I'd like to hear about it.

3. Getting really tired of ideolouges trying to fit Greens into thier tired old paradigm.

I am not wasting my vote. I am voting for sustainablilty, proportional representaion and a healthy future for our population and environment. If we don't have a healthy environment, nothing else matters. I will be voting green in a few hours and man am I ever feeling good about it.

This white-knuckle day, I'm clinging to Lynn's belief (or was it redrivergirl's) that the Cons cannot possibly win. But now comes hope from another source:

Clubofrome, to fill in the blank patches of your history of Canada: the NDP invented our social safety net and has spent 70 loyal years pressing whoever's in government to keep the faith and honour the people. Just remember: With more NDP, this would be a kinder, greener, gentler world. Short version for today: NDP good.

Good luck, Canada!

The fact that the NDP has never formed a federal government is in their favour, as they are free of any scandals and Layton's long public service is also free of any wrongdoings.

There's almost no hope in hell to replace our present Reform holdover, useless seat warmer by the name of Dick Harris, in these good union towns of the Cariboo, but I'm off to vote NDP.

Afer all, if we hadn't tried and worked hard to get rid of our past 2 BCLib MLAs, we'd still have them, with their whole contribution having been the clapping of hands to the idiocies of their Great Leader Campbell.

By the way, Rafe's and his government's first contribution to the BC scene was the creation of a mini depression, when their one man disaster area by the name of Dr.McGeer doubled the ICBC rates overnight and pulled $300. million extra out of the BC economy at the end of February 76.

I was doing some work for Chunky Woodward at the time, who was one of some major businessmen who wrote an open letter to Bennett, condemning McGeer's stupid action.

We were having a cup of tea in his living room and I thanked Mr.Woodward, telling him that my business went down 30%, ultimately for 6 months, costing me $65,000, which I didn't have. Almost like a half million today. I had to mortgage our almost paid for house in Vancouver and when we sold it 3 years later, it was for $65,000. In other words, we gave it to the Socreds of Bennett.

Mr.W. blew up and called Bennett and McGeer a few fancy names, as it as also the first time in the history of Woodward Stores that they racked up a loss of some millions. The rest is history.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Now there is a twisted bit of logic. However, Millionaire Jack and promise and say anything he wants because he knows he will never form a government and will never be accountable to anyone except his CLC masters.

The rest is history, Ed Deak and hopefully not the future.

I just voted NDP as well.

It was me, Redrivergirl, BC Mary. I don't want Lynn to wear it if I'm wrong. :-)

I just don't think we Canadians are collectively that dumb.

hey working boy been sending out resumes, looks like you liberals will be crashing and burning lol!

Thanks Mary. I've seen those shows too. What I don't get is the history of the labour connection, the whole W-5. More importantly, I'm more interested in where they are going than where they came from. After Mulroney/Campbell 1993 we saw the PC's collapse to a single breading pair, but while Reform picked up 52 seats, it still shows that a major political group can alter course. You could say that evolution took 15 years. They are on the eve of breakthrough. As the future bleakens, divides further and becomes more hostile maybe the Liberals and NDP have a future together? Although it seems unlikely looking back, going forward will be a need for ability to change. When everyone stops consumming like pigs, going to the doctor for every little ailment, and starts taking personal responsibility for the future...... and large winged Dolphins rise to rule Atlantis....

The NDP did not need to be elected in order to change the landscape.

Precisely. Same goes for the Greens. I don't care if the Green Party ever elects anyone. As long as they take enough votes to cause other parties to sit up, take notice, and adopt their policies - it's mission accomplished. Policies matter, not personalities. Also, running a full slate in federal and provincial elections has given the Greens the visibility and momentum to score some great victories in recent municipal contests.

The Greens did very well in Calgary and other parts of Alberta during recent federal and provincial elections. In many polling districts, they beat the NDP. They didn't elect anyone, but shortly after seeing all those votes going to the Greens, the Alberta Conservative government became the first in Canada to impose a retail-level recycling levy on electronics equipment that contains lead and mercury to fund proper, safe recycling of this equipment. It's unlikely the Conservatives would have done such a thing without a strong Green showing in Alberta.

A vote for the NDP doesn't send a clear signal to Conservative governments about addressing environmental issues through revenue-neutral tax-shifting. It mostly sends a signal in support of higher taxes to fund more union featherbedding plus more money for drug addicts to spend on drugs. Fortunately, Conservative governments usually ignore such NDP signals.

The Conservatives will likely form the next federal government. If they're 2% short of a majority and they see 7% or more of the vote going to the Greens, with 1/3 of it coming from former Progressive Conservatives, they will no doubt start adopting more planks from the Green platform in the hopes of wooing-back former Progressive Conservative Blue-Greens during the next election. The federal Conservative platform has already been influenced by the Green vote. It's unlikely that the Conservatives would be offering a transit pass tax credit if they didn't see former PCs voting Green. Also, it's unlikely the Conservatives would be offering tax breaks for sports activities as part of a preventive health strategy if they didn't see former PCs voting Green.

I'm not a big fan of diesel buses. I'd rather see federal money going toward tax breaks on hybrid vehicles as the BC Liberals have done, and a greater investment in walking/cycling infrustructure, such as more safe overpasses over busy streets plus more walking and cycling paths through greenbelts (long, thin parks) well away from auto traffic. Same with sports subsidies. These will mostly be used by yuppie soccer moms to entertain their spoiled yuppie brat kids. I would rather see that money also going toward safe walking/cycling infrastructure that can be used by everyone - not just yuppies.

All the same, the Conservative bus and sports tax breaks at least show they're paying attention to the Green platform and thinking in terms of preventing health problems through less pollution and more exercise. It's a start. There's lots more to come.

The strong Green showing in Western Canada has even prompted Preston Manning to endorse Green policies. This was quite a shock considering that the centrepiece of Green policy is tax-shifting which is the complete opposite of Manning's flat tax ideas. Manning seems to be admitting that his flat tax ideas were wrong.

Many NDP supporters are completely against tax shifting. They prefer the classic NDP approach of tax shafting. Instead of squeezing money out of working people directly, the NDP likes to do it by stealth. For example, when a small health food restaurant or bike repair shop in Vancouver has to pay $100,000 per year in taxes and the shop owners are working 16 hours a day to make $20,000 per year in profits, it's obvious these taxes can't come out of profits and must be added to the price of useful goods and services.

I am self employed, ursus. I will work my normal 10-11 hour day tomrorrow as I will today. Little will change for me with the election of Herr Harper. EI premiums might go down a bit, tax tables may change again. Most regulation in regards to business is provincial anyway.

And I am 100% sure the Libreals will get more seats than the NDP.

I don't know where you get your figures. I was in the custom furniture business in Vancouver during the Barrett NDP government and business was booming. There were no extra taxes on business. Neither do I know of any during the last NDP govt.

On the other hand, when Bennett took over all my competition went bellyup and we only survived at a very heavy price, that broke my back. After that all I could think of was to get the hell out of it. As far I know my old business is still alive under the Magic Hand Custom Furniture name.

Harper will be the most charming as a minority, or even as a small majority government, to fool people to give him another term. Then look out!
The gloves will be off and Canada for sale.

Have you heard of "deep integration" in both the Lib and Tory platforms ?

Ed Deak.

The corporate capital tax, PST on auto repair labour and PST on legal bills to name three right off the top of my head.

"Fair Wage (there was nothing 'fair' about it) and "Sectoral Bargaining" were also a type of tax grab.

I am so encouraged by the amount of dialogue and participation Rafe has brought to the political (or lack thereof) on the Green vote. It is and never will be wasted. If you don't believe me, just look outside druing the coldest month in Canada. Why is it not[I] cold?...
The NDP have indicated that they are champions of the nevironment. Jack Layton, as accurately as Rafe observed, did not once bring up this issue in the English debates! People have to realise that the Green voters are not necessarily coming from the left and are more likely to come to power by courting the right. Look at the Vancouver Sun/Can West Global. Why are they shutting the Green campaign out? Because they are afraid the Greens would have influence over more potential Conservative votes.
Let's look at the big picture here.
Large corporations and big business have increasing power in our lives. Perhaps more than government.
Loss of species habitat and an increase in climate change is a reality.
Self-employed Canadians and small business have no voice in the legislature.
Our "democratic system" is anything but democratic and voter turnout, especially among young voters, is at an all-time low. Canadians have lost faith in traditional politics while our resources and energy, incrisingly controlled by large foreign-owned companies in trade contracts that benefit the buyers, are quickly depleting.
So, ask yourself, are you going to continue to vote for traditional political parties that throw money at problems without looking at the potential solutions and let blue-haired Canadians decide our fate? Or vote for Green candidates that will represent the issues that concern the future of Canada and the planet while bringing a focus on community-based decision-making so that future Canadians will have a future. Look at the big picture AND the long-term.
The Green voice is getting louder.
Come onboard with Rafe, Canadians.

You're welcome, clubofrome but I need to add that I didn't learn about the NDP from a show. Let me tell you: my eyes have looked into the eyes of J.S. Woodsworth. Although I was only 5 years old, the message stayed with me. [My real job was to present flowers to his daughter, Grace McInnis, who was on a speaking tour with him.]

Recently a friend told me about her day, circa 2005, as a volunteer, attending an NDP executive meeting at her local Constituency office. She said, "If only people knew ..." She said there are constant lineups of desperate people at the NDP office doors -- the "Left Behind" in Gordon Campbell's Neo-Con world. Their stories would make your hair stand on end. The M.L.A. and his volunteers are working flat out, she said, to provide the help people need.

You'd never see such stories in the mainstream media, which is a pity, as it might mean more help for the people in need. On the contrary, on all sides, we hear fault-finding, such as "I wrote to Jack Layton but he didn't answer my letter." My friend explained why. The socialists had other more urgent priorities. Most of us would approve of that, if only we knew.

I honour these men and women who quietly work for the betterment of others, for their country, for their world. It began with J.S. Woodsworth who, I can tell you, looked right through me when I said "Hello." I can still see his finely-formed face, blue eyes, little pointy beard. I wasn't offended when he didn't answer. In later life, I realized that (a) he was probably exhausted from his speaking tour, and (b) he probably didn't really see me except as, "every-child" the population of kids whose lives he was dedicated to improving. And for that, and much else, I honour his memory. As did every member of Parliament when J.S. Woodsworth died.

Clubofrome: a book I recommend is "The Good Fight. Political Memoirs 1909-1958" by David Lewis for an understanding of the foundations of the New Democratic Party.

Wow. The second coming of Christ really has happened! To think I was so misinformed so long.

"You cannot have healthy people on a sick planet," Harris asserts, pointing to smog problems increasingly being experienced in Canada's larger cities.
"We are putting our short-term interests ahead of the long-term interests of our grandchildren," says Harris, who drives a hybrid car. "We are caught in a deep pathology. We need a deep reorientation . . . . When are we going to say, enough is enough?"

Isn't it more rewarding to vote FOR a candidate and a party that represents this shift, than AGAINST it by remaining on a sinking ship?...

Actually, you are about the same age as the average NDP candidate. See you at the "victory" speech tonight.

Thanks again, Mary. Lets hope they don't go down in the first round tonight! I'm hoping to see at least 30 seats, and continued voice and cooperation in a minority Gov't... but
I can't decide on beer and pizza or rum and burgers...??

Jack Layton wrote a book that gave a lot of great environmental ideas. Harris doesn't hold the patent on the environment. In fact he supports industry monitoring itself. And, we know where that leads.

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1552636887/qid=1138059171/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/701-2081661-3035520

ahem, you may want to check out the Liberal party website. They lsit all their candidates. More grey hair there than singles night at the Abbottsford Legion.

Beer and a vegetarian pizza, Club. Bon appetit.

A few more hours folks and it'll be a government concerned about family values etc.
Same sex marriage will be soon a thing of the past. Every dictionary in every language in the world defines marriage as a union between a man and woman anyways. There will be such a thing as a civil union where gay couples will get the same benefits as a married couple but it won't be called a marriage.
No more safe injection sites and free heroin at the taxpayers expense, no more enabling addiction. There will be money treatment for those that want out of the mess though.
Its going to be a great day for Canada, I can only hope for a majority but a strong minority will do.

Geez, non-working man has a great gig. "Works" 10-11 hour days but has all the free time in the world to spew his extreme right-wing agenda during working hours. Must have a lot of great regular working folks making all the money for you non-WM. If you actually worked 10-11 hours a day, your outlook might be different. I am done for the day, to stop your too-obvious line of attack.

Oh, BTW, you still have not answered the question non-working man. Here is is again:

Try not to wreck your crayon working that one out.

Now get back to work and stop ripping off the comapny time on this blog.

Actually, if all your vote does is to give the Greens a buck seventy five, then yes, it's pretty much been wasted. But it's not your fault; it's the fault of the first-past-the-post colonial voting system we have. Canadian democracy urgently needs proportional representation.

I guess i didnt think of it in time, but the greens should have voted ndp and purged their guilt by donating 10 bux to the green party of canada. That way everyone would have wone.

Midnight, Election Night in Canada.

Not bad, eh? First, Jack Layton wins in Toronto Danforth ... then Olivia Chow wins in Trinity Spadina ... and then New Democrats win another 27 seats ... not bad at all. <>

Thoughts:

Prayers by millions must have been the divine mandate that kept things to a minority situation, huh? Prayers to false gods, though, also apparently work as well as to the self-proclaimed Apostles of the Book and its Law, who are going to bring the revelation to the heathen, so only recently freed from the near-socialist Liberals and their crony empire. There's almost a hint of rose in Harper's teeth, but he doesn't quite have the Trudeau thing going on, despite some of the media pitchmen's attempts to sell us on the idea that he's "cerebral" and even - ack! - "sexy".

What I mean is that there's Harpermania on the right, a fervour that they're FINALLY in power, if only limited power. It's gonna energize him - it's an intoxicating elixir and tonic, that kind of adulation - it can transform a man, and also reveal his real nature. Is he a "grand politician", somebody who can forge a majority two years or less down the line?

Whatever. By whatever stronger faith it is that brought them power - humbled power - they now are in the situation of being the pig-in-the-poke in a turbulent minority government. Or will Harper be a like a ringmaster with some very tame lions, easily handling them? And the old one, licking its wounds but stronger than expected, thinking about how to get its comeback going....

Leadership names: the usual - I kind of like McKenna's style, think Tobin's a character but a political lame duck in the West (looks too much like Glen Clark for BCers, I think). Don't know much about Emerson but I also have high leadership-potential thoughts about Keith Martin, whose maverick tongue but also very principled heart preserved him his seat in spite of the stupidites of the Liberal campaign and its various calamitous issues and accidental (or not) events. Anne McLellan? Any dark horses out there anyone likes?

And should there be a pool here on how long it's going to take to bring the Harper minority down? Scenarios?

Gotta find somewhere to watch Bill O'Reilly tomorrow; could be very silly. Just wait 'til the American right opens its very loud yap. And until George cracks the whip and yanks on that leash. It may be a silken collar, but it's still a collar.....

I voted green and I'm depressed that It will be a long time before anybody takes the enviroment as a serious issue in Canada. I'm not sorry I did, I'm just second guessing myself about how much more I could have done to get the message out.

The Question I pose is,
Why is it people have selective memory and forget the changes they have made in their lives? Most of you probably puffed a joint in your lives, are you from that point on till eternity a stoner? Everyone at some point has uttered a racial or insensitive slur, do you all consider yourselves bigots?
Jim Harris left the Tories a long time ago and fell in with the Greens. How many of you have voted for different parties or in some cases belonged to different parties. Are you all moles?

I do not believe my vote was wasted, I do not believe that Jim Harris is a Nazi mole planted to split the left, neither do I believe that the left owns the enviroment. We all live here and a blue enviromentalist has as much to lose as everyone else. If the NDP owns the enviroment issue why did Sierra rate Green higher, and why has the NDP who has labour as it's master done such a crappy job when it's had the chance.

The NDP needs to be honest, they are the working mans party and the non working man/women, they support industry, polution and the welfare state. That's fine, that's their right but they must stop claiming an issue they do nothing about.

Rafe:

Your vote was not wasted because the Green party now has a mandate to find a green leader. You should take a run at it.

Both these statements are false. The NDP was endorsed by major environmental groups over the Greens.

This statement is only partially true. It is not true to state they support pollution. I encourage you to read Jack Layton's book.

RRG, I think this time the Greens nosed the NDP by a hair to take first place from the NDP on the Sierra Club list. But yes, the NDP do have the support of mucho environmental groups.

BC Mary: ;-)
And I appreciated your story as well.

Kubera: You have plenty of time.

Sometimes Friendly Giant:
You made me laugh hard, dude. I loved the "pig in a poke" quote. There were some real gems there.

Working Man: "Get your facts straight."

HaHaHa!!! That has to be the funniest thing I've read in weeks. So, how did Ed Broadbent do in Ottawa Center? ROFL!

In response to The Brain's foolish encouragement, I'll post the rest of what was originally written to go with the post above here (sorry Tyee, for all the space; I promise to write shorter posts in future....)

So, for the NEXT election - what are the stakes? Higher, for sure, and the propaganda pitch also, and (if allowed to continue) the ongoing media game with polls and editorialized news content and marketing tactics, and even more talking-heads media shills and party spinners and hacks. Who cares where the money comes from for that kind of business? Communications firms and consultants are one of the most damaging elements to the Canadian polity at present, stifling open dialogue and openly - openly - pitching for the anointed side.

What's the timeline on the new election? Wish I knew. They wish they knew. The horse-trading over parliamentary alliances and policy-swapping is going as we blog and most people are sleeping. Calls are being made, meetings set up, ideas being tossed to around to see who will play goosey-goo with God's Revolution From The West. And how long that Revolution can survive its own vanities and its own inevitable sins and compromises and human faults, and also survive the political impact of having the kind of friends you keep, whether on the radical right out on the range in Alberta, or at the other one down in Texas? Will cowboy hats become fashionable in Ottawa?

I missed the speeches last night; guess I'll catch them today sometime. Harper's going to be all love and happy for a smile while, riding on the natural euphoria of FINALLY getting that job you've always wanted - and power, power, power, power, and power. What else is being PM for? So he's gonna be all glowing and benevolent, coasting on the endorphins of victory and self-fulfillment. But let's wait to see what happens when he's presented with a bona fide political dilemma, or something either Bush or his own rightwing fringe dump onto his lap; will the happy, smiley Stephen suddenly turn into the Horned God and reveal his true nature? We'll see...

And then the fun begins. The first policy directions and public statements, the shape of cabinet, the bogey men that start playing "boo" from the backbenches to scare the Opposition (and us), the visit to Washington (please, please don't sing along with George, Stephen, please!). And once the House is in session, the catfight begins.

Who's gonna dance with who? The NDP may be the plainest girl on the dancefloor, but that charming gallant at the head of the Tories is inviting you to join him in the cotillion. Will you take part, or will you force him to deal with the BQ? Or will he just not bother with you - since Tories have worked happily with Quebec nationalists before. Some of them are even more leftist than most of you are.

But, if that cavalier gentlemen really were to approach and offer you a package of nearly all the deals you'd hinted at in the flirtations of the campaign. Now that you're away from the rabble, please drop your fan and be polite to the gentleman. He's the only one of the other two "gentlemen" present who has any sort of numbers to be able to give you partial power and, if you're pleasant with him, may help prolong the dance. But will he play your coquetteish (sp?) little game? Or will he ask that French charmer, La Duceppe, for the first dance, and it turns they waltz all evening and leave you on your chair, wondering what you can do to get noticed......

Can Jack play with Stephen, and will they dance? Can they tango? Can they mambo? Foxtrot? Does Jack know how to lead? Because Stephen, unfortunately, does, and may turn out to do it very well - which is the scariest thing of all:

A man who rises to the occasion, whose agenda could only be fulfilled by the personality he might be come upon gaining power, and no sooner. That's what's really scary; what power might do to him. Again, we'll see...

cont...

So back an Stephen make Jack do the limbo, with Stephen holding the pole lower and lower? Oh yeah, you bet! Can Jack take it? I'm not sure, we'll see - but with only just enough seats to barely squeak past a non-confidence vote the NDP are definitely not the only twirl at the dance.

Does Jack know how to make Stephen sit up and beg? He might, but problem is Stephen has another option - even TWO other options. And they're taller, and prettier, and closer aligned to the governing party's ideological base.

Can hard Tories take their leader association with those devil-worshippers in that atheist NDP, and all their communist and red-horde colours. OK, OK, orange horde, then. Or with the separatist horde? Can Christian grassroots and Christian MPs (and cabinet ministers) take political deals with the social agenda that will be an NDP - and Bloc - condition?

Here's my question for anyone that's read this far:

Inevitably Stephen Harper is going to be embarrassed by someone in the ranks, or some situation related to his past. How long's it going to take? Months? Year?

And what's it gonna cost him, both in policy and in potential caucus discord over deals with the various devils on the Opposition benches on certain policy compromises. Or are their mouths still going to be under seal for the duration of the government? That's not really possible is it? How longs it gonna take for the minority to collapse? Should be another set of bets on here, like there was on the seat count.

As for the Grits, they did better than the media were forecasting they would, and I kinda suspected it here in the Lower Mainland, where there's a bigtime wariness of neo-Conservatism. This is interesting in that a chunk of the Liberal powerbase is firmly and importantly in BC, with prominent members holding their seats. I think there were surprising Liberal wins in Quadra and West Vancouver-Sunshine Coast-Sea to Sky, pointing to a wariness of the Tory ideological taint common in BC, even among the monied crowd but also in the new-money and immigrant crowd, who are wary not just of neoconservatism and radical religion but also of Harper's ties to Bush.

There's a Liberal leadership race for sure, probably by fall if Martin does the noble thing and stands done - or will he, as they Liberals did better than expected, as already mentioned. This also suggests to me that, despite the intensive and very professional marketing and disinformation hyped by the media and the heavy spin all over this campaign, the public still resisted.

Campbell's silence during the campaign is now rewarded, but only in the form of a stronger BC Liberal Party because of the high-profile Liberal caucus, and also because of our no doubt high-profile new Senator from BC, the other Campbell, who I can see leading the charge for electoral reform - and Senate reform, beating the Tories to it or grandstanding them in the course of reform - and also blocking Tory attacks on drug legislation and health and community services. To me, despite what his opponents say, the man's a future Prime Minister given the occasion to rise to.

cont2:

Ah, my Greens, my Greens - up by .2% or so, isn't it? That's good, better than down by .2%, and impressive in its own way that the Greens increased their vote, despite the strategic-voting propaganda and the various internal and external slags against Jim Harris (who I thought was one of the better leaders in terms of his TV presence/ things to say). So no seats, but better a few points and no points at all, given the ultimate success of the stop-Harper strategic voting that I still maintain is so dishonest - to one's self, I mean, and to the point of the vote. You should be able to vote for something to believe in, not have to vote for someone you don't like to stop someone you like even less. That's craziness, but it's what FPTP brings us. STV or proportional or something in the way of electoral reform.

Would Harper condescend to buy off the NDP with a deal on electoral reform, which would only restrict his future power and assure CAnada a leftists bent? No - not on the back burner, and certainly not on the front. Senate Reform, yes. Electoral reform no, except maybe in the cse of the Senate, where proportional makes more sense, so as to not duplicate the by-region nature of the MP's constituency.

This doesn't mean that I wanted a huge increase in Green votes across the board that would have brought Harper a majority; rather that one or two ridings take the leap and decided to endorse the new party, as a community, and send a new idea and new kind of MP to Ottawa, as BC as has so often done (for better or worse).

Now, if the media had conducted a fair campaign, I'd venture that it would be a Liberal minority government. The pols and pundits tried to sell us on a Tory majority and it didn't work, and they Tories lost ground in BC, and didn't break through as much in the Maritimes or Ontario as they wanted, and that's with all the positive media spin in the world.

Harper wants a second election to secure a majority; but he doesn't have the advantage of pointing at the other guy the next time around; he'll be the one with the target painted on his behind....

Big line to all young potential voters that all anti-Harper parties should pump well in advance of the next election: you guys have the most to lose, including possibly your lives if Harper gets a majority next time around. If you don't want to come home in bodybags four or five years from now, make sure you and all your friends make a point of actually voting in the same strength that the older people typicall do (some of whom are quite comfortable with the thought of sending young Canadians off to do battle for the nation's honour, glory, or whatever rationale it is that will be provided...)

Sometimes friendly giant: If some laughter (certainly not at you) is all it takes for foolish encouragement, by all means, I won't stop (its needed from time to time). While we both know certain things are already a day old (like Pauls future intentions), you do make some strong point's at the end. It isn't the old who have to suffer the blunt of environmental waste and war. Its the young.

As well, you are bang on with the media, and bang on with alliances. The petit NDP won't be asked for many dances. The bloc, the Libs... I don't see them passing any legislation that has anything to do with how money is spent. The Cons could try to pass their platform as in on any issue and it will be voted down in a no confidence house. Voters know what the issues are, in truth. That first bill the Cons try on any budget amendments or spending will come with huge opposition, based on the major difference between left and right.

More or less government control.

As much as throwing money into peoples pockets pleases the average voter, the voters have spoken. 70% of eligables, I might add. The majority of us like cheques, for sure, but inevidably, Beer and popcorn for hockey dads and baby checks flogged off as daycare checks don't cut it for the more informed.

I see this government being as sucessful as Joe Clark's, with a difference. The Libs and Quebec have the ability to pass legislation that involves money or anything else that they can agree on. Look for a bill or two to pass, by this Eastern alliance, even before the Cons lose a non confidence vote... if the east is wise, that is. And, look for either Ralph or Ken to run the red flag

Some people on this sites opinions make me wonder what ever happened to our province. Nasty,nasty. I feel like I am now explaining economics to children, companies hire people to work, logging, mining, drilling for oil, whatever. Then they sell the product, the profit pays wages, shareholders, taxes etc.. This is wealth creation, it is what makes the world go around, puts food on my table, gas in my truck. It is hard for me to understand people that want to stop resource extraction because it is "bad" for the enviroment. Get this, without a healthy economy we starve, no hospitals, no social programs, nothing. If you really want to do something about the enviroment, go to India or China and get them some enviromental standards set up, because they dont have any. We need more resource extraction in B.C., for example, it will provide jobs for our young people, it has welfare beat anyway you look at it. Resource jobs pay well, not even close to minimum wage. I get $275 for a six and a half hour day, many get more than me. Young guys in Alberta drive new pickups with the money they made in the patch, young guys in B.C. drive new cars with the money they made selling drugs, great. One person here called an Albertan a kraut and a redneck while at the same time talking about fairness and other good Canadian values. Sickening, but sadly common too hear that crap, white, blue collar men of German origin are bad for making something of thier lives through hard work. Maybe he should be in B.C., laying about, being useless and whining. The oil, trees and minerals are here for us to use, use, not abuse. In an ideal world we could all wander around with flowers in our hair, petting animals and it would all be love and granola bars, but it isn't.

Hey, man, it is my company so I can do whatever I want with its or my time. It is called the freedom of being self employed. I tend to answer the phone a lot in the afernoon so that is when I post here.

climber wrote

I agree with you that resource extraction is necessary. It is part of being human. However, it is the waste that sticks in my craw.

Ever hear of automation? Those mills and other machinery are phasing out a lot of positions. I am sorry, resource extraction is just not a labour intensive anymore. A guy with a few buttons can do the work of a few hundred people now.

No argument here. But it is a matter of how we use them.

"I tend to answer the phone a lot in the afternoon so that is when I post here", Working Man offered last night when querried about what seems to be a fulltime job blathering on Tyee.

Good answer WM, by could you please explain why you have been posting with such anger all morning on Murray Dobbins excellent article when it's still hours before noon?

And just when do you really work?

I hate the GReens as much as I hate the NDP but not as much as the Liberals and the Reformed Alliance Progressive Conservatives (RAPC). I know I'm not the only disenfranchised voter out there and perhaps, one of the strange but powerful "4400"(thats a Vancouver joke).

I would advise Jack Layton and the western NDP to prove they can work with diversity by forming an alliance with the Green Party. Give them one, make a deal to get the support for the rest. You won't be able to keep them out forever anyway, this way you'll inspire gratitude, confidence in NDP green commitments, build a working relationship and get the green conservative vote.

Maybe you could undo some of the damage done by your predecessors when they created the GReens through their own stupidity. Gordon Campbell came to power thanks to Adrienne Carr, which is the first person Ujal thanked in his concession speech, immediately before Adrienne was thanked first thing by Gordons acceptance speech accompanied by quickly hushed loud guffaws from Gordons good 'ol boys. I love television.

The NDP ignored the power of the environmental movement in BC, they paid big time for their ignorance and I would like to continue rubbing their nose in the bodies of dead children, which is as much their fault as the Liberal government of Gordon Campbell.

The commentor climber puts the nut into the shell for you NDP, this is who your unions represent.

janet, the NPD see the Greens as counter-revolutionaries and as such a menace that much be eradicated.

The Greens see the NDP as hopelessly out of date and want nothing to do with them..

Don't expect any marriage soon, unless the Greens take over the NDP (not a bad idea, actually) like the Alliance took over the PC Party.

So sad to see a "journalist" so easily seconded by people with an agenda

Janet666, I'd urge you to offer the same advice to the Greens, but first that party has to purge itself of people such as yourself who can't look beyond the status quo.

Janet666, you are still bitter that Glen Clark didn't fall down on his knees when you holier than thouers showed up to tell the NDP what to do.

Here's a little advice lady. If you want to influence politics get involved.

Standing on the sidelines whining "I hate them all" might get the odd idiot on side with you (see post immediately below yours), but it doesn't advance any agendas.

Perhaps you and Climber can launch the grand new party that'll bring peace and prosperity to our world.

Your first statement could be "I don't yet hate this party."

Otherwise, you comments are tired, dated and certainly show you haven't got much beyond the headlines.

Note to authors: if you can put your wife's name in your article as much as possible, that'll boost your credibility!

Like with most of Mair's articles, I say to this piece, "nonsense." A vote for the Green Party in this election WAS a wasted vote and the party itself KNEW it! Don't think so? Go over to the Greens website and witness the overwhelming disappointment conveyed by the front page: a "thank you" to its supporters; an acknowledgement that the party only increased its vote by 100,000 ppl and...that's it.

It's true that the Sierra Club endorsed the Green Party as having the best environmental platform this time 'round. But the Club also gave the NDP an "A" for their environmental platform and Greenpeace and other environmentalists (David Suzuki) continue to support the party. And unlike the Greens, the NDP actually gets ELECTED and can make a difference in the House of Commons, bringing, if they choose to do so, environmental issues to the forefront of debate.

The problem is not the NDP. The problem is having the Liberals and Conservatives as the two "main" parties in Canada, and the fact that both parties try to shut out environmental debate by either neglecting to talk about the issue(s) or refusing to legislate on it (demonstrated best when the Libs and Cons voted against the tough, mandatory emissions standards proposed by the NDP).

It seems that many on this site have this perception of the NDP as a nagging, union-dominated party that will punish voters for their very existence once elected (words like "statist," "nanny," "socialist," and "communist" often come up when describing the party). I also understand that the NDP has governed in B.C. much more than it has in the rest of the country, and that governing inevitably leaves a party open to criticism for their mistakes (or successes perceived as mistakes).

But what is to suggest that the federal NDP - if it were to govern - would be identical to the hand-picked faulty provincial gov'ts (pin-pointed by Greens and neo-cons) that it has had in the past (Lorne Calvert and Gary Doer would be conveniently left out of these examples)?

The answer is that there really is nothing to suggest this; that the federal NDP platform was the second most fiscal of the five political parties; that Layton has pumped some much-needed energy and pragmatism into the party; and that only Greens and Conservatives would suggest otherwise.

allan, honey, I'm not in the GReens, or any other party for that matter because I'm tired of being viciously bullied and used by other peoples power agendas residing in hierarchies such as the one to which you belong.

As for Glen Clark, he wasn't even on the radar, for some reason he didn't show up. We were dealing with a man of God, who was loyal to Mike Harcourt. You do remember a time when the NDP stood for integrity and an open agenda?

What is the status quo exactly? And who's status quo? New trucks and big guts?

After the work we did to generate trust and support for the victory of the NDP, and what I gave up personally in the name of environmental protection, yes, Glen should have got down on his knees to lick.

And when you call me lady you should do that with respect, because I have earned that. I'll tell you what is tired and dated, your belief that politics is the answer to our problems.

Janet-that wasn't very nice to mock those hard working, decent folks that have pickups. Why not go on...... fat cowboy with a ten gallon hat, wife beating anti-semite with negro lawn ornaments, he's the ideal Canadian. The status quo to be strived for. I could go on a rant (and I used to) about tree huggin, do goodin, meddlin, hippy earth muffins out to destroy our heritage. But why? Let go of the hate, yes the NDP (last provincial regime) really let a lot of people down. Yes the enviroment is in a mess down in Vancouver, smog filled, crowded bubble that it is. I never understood what the term "rat race" meant untill I left the g.v.r.d.. But there has to be more than bitter resentment, maybe you could move to somewhere in rural B.C., where the air is clean and the people are nicer. I felt a lot calmer and better after moving away, just a suggestion.

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.

Greek proverb

janet 666, sweetpea, I don't think I suggested you were a member of the Greens. In fact, I believe you indicated quite clearly that you "hate" the Greens, the NDP, LIbs and, I think, the Conservatives.

I do not remember if you had an opinion on the Marxist Lenonists, Libertarians or the Humping Beaver Party, but, I wouldn't bet against it.

Dahling, if you could be so nice as to elaborate as to what you were ignored over.

You know, sometimes it's all just perception on both sides.

Climber, don't be such a narrow mind. I don't own a pick up truck, never have, in fact I use a bike as much as I can.

One of the problems with you young, immature and over zealous recycling types is that you come across as enviro-nazis, when most of us likely do more without your yapping than you do to preserve the environment.

BTW, I left the rat race a decade ago and, no, I don't live in the Lower mainland

But, I do have one bone to pick with you and that is over th following diatribe:

"Why not go on....Fat cowboy with a ten-gallon hat, wife beating anti-semite with negro lawn ornaments, he's the ideal Canadian."

Tell me big guy, what do you base that diatribe on?

I am not fat, nor a cowboy and a don't wear any hats. I have never laid a hand on a woman, am not an anti-semite and a certainly don't have any negro lawn ornaments.

Perhaps you might explain why you would spew such ludicrous tripe.

Would you put your real name to that statement?

Your words suggest you are about the lowest form of scum. I, for one am glad that you certainly don't represent the "ideal Canadian."

Personally, I think you are a little man, not in size, but certainly in character.

If you can't explain your words the very least would be to apologize.

While you think my use of the word hate may be childish, I use it in the context of the opposite of love, because to work for any party you must have that kind of dedication to carry through the muck and crap of running a campaign, dealing with overgrown egos and putting up with power struggles within the party. When I used to have that kind of dedication, my contribution consisted of providing thorough background research and data, grassroots activism, 18 hour a day campaign office support, meetings with the public and people in positions of power. It was not a matter of perception but deception.

BTW I too moved to rural BC a decade ago and the people were not nicer. In fact, between the redneck boys network that controlled the local economy and the redneck hippies, I felt like I was in that old horror movie, "Lets Scare Jessica to Death". My son was beaten at school daily by hippy redneck children. As a single woman I was feared by all the women in their old, tired and screwed relationships with men I had absolutely no interest in, but for some reason posed a threat anyway. Three out of every four men are sexual predators. Then there's the rich retired drug dealers who don't give a shit about community, violent ex-con tin pot dictator grow-op controllers, the local band of alcoholics who hang out at the bar and on the beach, mountain biker hippy thieves, bitter, nasty and volatile lesbians and the rich christian retired professionals who barricade themselves in community estates. The "community" which I believed to exist when I moved there was an insulated self serving group that couldn't even organize to save its own watershed. I even offered to put up my entire equity (along with others) towards forming a bank like CCEC to buy the forest, but the so called community credit union insisted they remain the local bank and did nothing to organize funding. The saddest thing was seeing what were once independent strong talented women living with alcoholic assholes because they didn't want to be alone.

When land values hit the skids along with the end of the NDP regime, I lost everything. When I was trying to move what was left of my belongings into storage my "friend" a strident housing for the homeless advocate and the local "community" b&b guy drove off with two truckloads of my stuff. You know I used to love that Neil Young song, I still like the tune but the sentiment is gone.

You guys are right about the smog, I'm advocating for free transit.

Nothing more for me to say.

Allan-I am sorry that you took offence, wasn't talking about you at all. I will try to explain. I was giving Janet shit for her remark for dissing people who drive pickups. Check out what I said a few posts back, the line is "Young guys in Alberta drive new trucks with money they make working in the patch" Janet said "the new status quo, new trucks and big guts" Nothing to do with you. I would never say that about an actuall person, nothing you have said here makes me want to insult you.It is what she would have said if she had kept going. It is the labelling of people, reducing them by stereotypical labels that I was talking about. I drive a pickup, a big gas guzzling beater from the 80s. My gut is still pretty flat but getting bigger as I age. I am most likely to be called a redneck by people in the g.v.r.d., I own chainsaws, I use them. That is why I am touchy about digs at pickups and the word redneck. Please read my posts to see what I am talking about.

Climber, I have reread your earlier post and now see what you were getting at.

Gotta be careful when when tossing sarcasm or irony around.

I agree janet666 has gone overboard on her description of people and her obvious dislike of so much.

Her latest post is frightening, in my view.

It's actually quite sad to see someone go so overboard and to try to find blame in everyone other than the one starring back in the mirror.

Frankly janet666, you are a classic case of burn out, in my humble opinion.

Despite all those words you placed above, not once did you seem to reflect an iota on how you might have been part of the problem, or heaven forebid, a part of a solution.

Too bad we likely won't read a response from someone who knew you in that small isolated Interior community.

You have everyone nicely slotted into ugly little bins from which you can drag them out when ever your own lack of esteem needs something to be compared to.

I hope it makes you feel better because if you don't then I'd say your posts are complete wastes of time and space.

Janet 666
re:
I too moved to rural BC a decade ago and the people were not nicer. In fact, between the redneck boys network that controlled the local economy and the redneck hippies, I felt like I was in that old horror movie, "Lets Scare Jessica to Death". My son was beaten at school daily by hippy redneck children. As a single woman I was feared by all the women in their old, tired and screwed relationships with men I had absolutely no interest in, but for some reason posed a threat anyway. Three out of every four men are sexual predators. Then there's the rich retired drug dealers who don't give a shit about community, violent ex-con tin pot dictator grow-op controllers, the local band of alcoholics who hang out at the bar and on the beach, mountain biker hippy thieves, bitter, nasty and volatile lesbians and the rich christian retired professionals who barricade themselves in community estates.

The last option sounds best to me.

"Frankly janet666, you are a classic case of burn out, in my humble opinion."

Gee, ya think! Actually we're getting a bit off topic, which is partly my fault. So I will answer your questions and then move on, my talk into action by getting more names on my petition today. I can still be an activist without political branding.

The community I described (I apologize for leaving out the coke snorting loggers) is Rural Everywhere, with the exception of barricaded professionals and religious groups who have developed their own forms of oppression. There were a few good people there, who regard me as inspirational and have taken my efforts and ideas to create a housing cooperative and made it a reality. Unfortunately too late to have made a difference for me. It turns out I had other work still to do in the Big City anyway.

I'm glad at least I was able to facilitate your intoductions to each other, allan and climber, it looks like you have a lot in common.

Just a clarification climer, a healthy economy depends on a healthy environment. Not the other way around. Resource extraction is necessary, but not for short term profits in the hands of the few. Did you see the building projects in Shanghai? China rises indeed! The Asain continent will have to learn by making the same mistakes we did, because we wern't willing to share. Everyone out for themselves. New trucks for all....

...sorry, climber...