PS I am not sure how to "measure" these "debates". Paul Martin and his predecessor, Jean Chretien, have demonstrated the art of broken promises in the last 12 years. before that, Brian Mulroney demonstrated that the Conservatives are no strangers to the broken promise.

So why should we believe ANYTHING these gentlemen have to say? If anything, Jack Layton hits it on the head when he says to elect more NDP to keep government honest.....

Brian Mulroney was the most revolting, lying piece of human garbage to ever inhabit the PM's office. It was he who actually tried to de-index the Old Age Pension!!

Harper, if elected, will be even worse.

Jean Chetian was the most revolting, lying piece of human garbage to ever inhabit the PM,s office. It was he who actually tried to steal money from taxpayers to prop up his failing golf course and Liberal Party.

Martin if re-elected will continue this legacy.
Don't vote these crooks in again. Haven't you seen enough corruption for a decade ?

Don't get sucked in by this scary bunch.

I watched this debate, but the one reported here sure doesn't sound much like the one I saw. It was a minor display, predictable in its manner and tone, even then after taking Duceppe, who had been talking about Quebec's right to formulate the question, out of context.

Which is lost in the rush of this writer and, I predict, the corporate media generally, to find something it could sieze on to give Martin the appearance of an edge. Now it may turn out to do so, but only as a consequence of the media siezing on it, taking it up and hammering away on it.

I thought again, though we are talking thin cellophane paper here degrees here, that Layton overall came off looking the "somewhat", if wooden and scripted, better, of the three from Anglo-Canada.

Duceppe came of a hand span the better of them all though. He's looser, less rigid and uptight, the apparently more sincere and the less scripted, and the faster on his feet of any of these others. Maybe we should take up a "write-in" vote for Duceppe. :-)

This writer is obviously a "true believer" in the Liberal cause.

And I thought Harper especially, comes off the most wooden, the more insecure, less sure of his views and material, hence the most scripted. He was not as bad as in the French debate, but barely so.

My view.

Working Man:

Ron Erwin:

It's a tie!

I'm all for Mr. Tieleman ditching the leaders themselves and instead going for broke with a 'Boys On The Bus' type reportage for the next five weeks or so.

With names.

.

Good review Bill.

Although I must ask if you are feeling alright, as you sound more like a real analyst than the one-sided pundit I'm used to.

There were no clear or defining winners in either of these what I can only be discribed as a meetings or maybe a better choice of words forms, it sure as hell shouldn't have been labeled as a debate.
In referance to Martins remark to Duceppe, Bill Tieleman you decribed it correct, it was just that, a shot,yes he was playing to the cameras, play this up all you wish, it's only your chest that being thumped by you.

Tielman is an old style NDP hack, and anyone who runs for the Conservative party is evil! Sorry, this is BS. The Liberals are the most corrupt political party in Canada and deserve to be voted out of office. The NDP are just Dead men walking - Yesterday's politcal party run by yesterday's men!

But no, Tielams demonizes Harper, in a slim hope the the NDP will garner much more votes, than the last electition. Not!

Sotty, the NDP have had their day and have squandered their reputation. I one wants change, vote Green. If you want the status quo, vote Liberal Conservative and/or the NDP.

I want change!

So let me get this straight - the liberals will keep stealing from us, the conservatives will sell us down the river like gordo, the NDP will have government run everything starting with daycare (get em while their young!!). None of the parties tried to actually put ethics on paper in the last parliment - proves the temptation of trough feeding is too great.

Seems the green party is the only real option despite the media's bias to keep a "managable" status quo.

I agree that there were no clear winners. They all got a punch or two in for what was a fairly dry format for a debate... which leads me to my next point...

I agree with this assessment. If they can change or tweak the format for January or for when we do this again in 18 months, I'd do the following:

1. Keep the questions but have it done via a live audience;

2. Have a time for rebuttal and debate, so you get a mix of canned responses and real live debate - because it's supposed to be a debate; and

3. Don't do it on a Friday night. Who is ever home on a Friday night? Sunday through Thursday nights would probably be better, with Monday - Thursday being the best (I know at my University often in humanities and social science areas, teachers bring their students down to the student lounges where there are TV’s to watch the debates) but avoid Fridays and Saturdays when people are out doing other things.

Corruption, schmorruption. Tell me what government hasn't had a major scandal, from Chretien, Mulroney, Trudeau to provincially Campbell, Clark, Harcourt, Vander Zalm, Bennett. I think we have all the parties covered here. If the corruption doesn't affect the average voter personally, fuggedaboudit, and vote philosophically. I'm betting Ron Erwin and his ilk have always voted for right wing parties. This scandal just gives him an excuse to *really* want the Libs out. And if the Conservatives offer what you believe -- by all means vote for them. Ditto NDP and ditto Liberals. Forget about individual policies. Look at their overall philosophies.

GRW: I believe Joe Clark's government was scandle free.

DEBATE! Your kidding,---Right? Just more garbage-in, garbage out. At least the format kept these "Leaders" at arms lenght and allowed the viewers to see. hear and judge. Usually they act like infants squabbling in a small sand box and wer'e left frustrated and hunting for the remote.
These two debates left me asking, "where's the meat?" These guys were clearly out of their element, and didn't know how to conduct themselves as formal, reasoned debaters. They appeared not only scripted but predictable.
As far as campaign promises go; from a young age I considerd a broken promise a LIE. As an adult I didn't make promises I couldn't keep.
The Libs. and Cons. are packing to much baggage, so we need a referee. I'll vote NDP.

Martin is not a Quebecer. He was born in Ontario, and operates his business out of any country that will have him except for Canada.

He wear's his "Quebecer" label as a badge of convenience; a pale, pathetic attempt to appeal to those voters.

Incidentally, those voters most often refer to themselves as Quebecois, not Quebecer's.

I was, trying to watch Air Farce, but I kept getting some stupid debate........

Did I mention that I fell asleep early in the session? After studying the 4 identical guys in 4 identical black suits, I detected only a minor difference in neckties: 3 striped neckties vs 1 spotted red necktie for Paul Martin.

4 identical pairs of hands pumping and/or windmilling: Paul won for best windmills. Paul also won for Most Worried Eyebrows. Duceppe won for Best Hair. Best Mustache: Jack Layton.

When I woke up, the Political Pundits were explaining that nothing had really happened. But I knew that.

The only two things I'm hoping for from this election are, getting rid of our present, useless, seatwarmer Reform dink by the name of Dick Harris, and the resignation of Stephen Harper as party leader the morning of Jan. 24.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

A vote for the federal Libranos is a vote for corruption.

Please don't reward thievery of our money. Please don't endorse corruption.

Please vote for someone other than your Librano candidate. It's the right thing to do.

Liberal 39

APEC-WCC-Reform-Alliance-Conservative 31

NDP 14

Bloc 12

Green 5

Paul Martin is on his way to again being Prime Minsiter of Canada. No matter how you dress Adolf up, he will never sell in Ontario.

Grumpy,

In what country did this happen? For my 50 years in Canada I recall only a Liberal/Conservative pendulum swing. I don't ever recall the NDP, even under its previous moniker, being at the helm of federal government - more's the pity.

But no, Tielams demonizes Harper, in a slim hope the the NDP will garner much more votes, than the last electition. Not!

Sotty, the NDP have had their day and have squandered their reputation. I one wants change, vote Green. If you want the status quo, vote Liberal Conservative and/or the NDP.

I want change!

Some very astute observations, Grumpy. Change? Well, from where I sit, Canada is doing rather well. We have low interest rates, a robust ecomomy, low unemployment and low inflation. I am not in much of a hurry to change that.

I also agree with voting Gtreen. If it were not that a Green vote could put Adolf into the PM's chair, I would also vote for them. However, we are in a situation of "better the devil you know than the devil you don't."

Oh, and the Federal NDP is going to ge flummoxed this time. They are polling at similar numbers to the Bloc. The NDP could offer a reasonable alternative if they could shed some dogma and adjust their polices to the changing voter demograhics of this country.

Change for change sake.

We can see from example that the right-wing politicians are the new deficit spenders. Mike Harris, Gordon Campell even Ralph Klein is on the verge with his daily spending anouncements. Then we have the biggest deficit spender and darling of the corporate press George W.Bush.

Stephen Harper with his tax cuts and spending initiatives will plunge our economy into deficits.

We have low inflation, low unemployment, balanced budgets and a rising dollar. The Liberals have done a good job on the economy.

Remember, the Bloc Quebecois is the formed from the Quebec wing of the Conservative party.

So Paul Martin's platitudinous defence of Canada is the "defining moment" of the debate, just like a similar outburst by Jean Charest was deemed by pundits to be the knock-out punch of the 1997 debate. I suspect that Martin's Captain Canada routine will have the same effect on the election results as Charest's: virtually none. The national unity card is old and hackneyed--voters in Quebec and elsewhere have heard it all before. It has almost always been a smokescreen to obscure the real issues in the election, the Liberals usually being the worst offenders.

A newer, though already tiresome, campaign cliche pedalled by the Liberals is the "defence of the Charter of Rights" mantra. The Charter is part of the constitution, and as a former Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court once said, "the Constitution is what the judges say it is." In that sense, the Charter is the perfect excuse for the Liberals to do what they do best: evade responsibility for political decisions, whether it be the definition of marriage or the role that private health insurance may or may not play in the coverage of core medical services (the Chaoulli decision). The notwithstanding clause is also part of the constitution, except that it places responsibility back in the hands of Parliament. That is the real reason why Paul Martin is so emphatic about repudiating its use, now and ever more. Passing the buck has always been the Liberal way. For years the Federal-provincial division of powers provided a ready-made excuse for the Liberals to do nothing at the national level, or, in the case of national programmes like Medicare and the CPP, to postpone taking action for decades. It still serves that purpose. Now the Charter is the Liberals' latest excuse to pass the buck, this time to the judiciary. I'm surprised to hear Jack Layton parroting this "Charter-is-sacred" line. The NDP should be careful about acquiescing in the further erosion of Parliament.

We also have to be careful of the powers of Parliament, as we have found out under Campbell, Mulroney, with his FTA, Chretien with his NAFTA and WTO, or the German people with Hitler, also put into power by a Parliament. What else would they have brought on us without a Constitution and a court system ?

Parliaments can be loaded either by force, deceit, or the gullibility of people voting for screwballers and crooks, so we need the Courts and a Constitution to keep from too far, leaving no rights for future Parliaments and generations. Which is what Campbell is doing under NAFTA rules, overriding human and democratic rights.

Could Hitler have passed his "final solution" laws if Germany had had a court system that could have declared them unconstitutional and illegal? Or Stalin, or Mao with their mass murder campaigns?

I sudder to think of a Canada under the thumb of a Preston Manning, or a Harper, selling the country under corporate dictatorship. Well within the laws and Constitution, of course.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Among the journalists, an "audible buzz," Bill? As opposed to an inaudible buzz? Perhaps some of the journalists had a buzz on from imbibing a few before the show. That right-wing columnist sitting next to you, who found Martin's rote "brilliant," clearly was not buzzed, but hammered.

Quite frankly it pisses me off that Duceppe is even allowed in a national election debate!!
And it REALLY pisses me off that ALL Canadian taxpayers contribute a hefty amount of money to support his party!

Rating Friday's debate. Loser? Duceppe.
By Bill Tieleman
How very wrong you and buzzed buds are,
the most sincere, honest candiate was Duceppe, bar none, only numb skulls would over look the fact that Duceppe has a mandate from the people of Quebec,the statements that he made were within the boundaries of his mandate, I only wish we could trade off gordon and have Duceppe as our Premiere here in B.C.

Good blow by blow, Bill Tieleman. Glad to see you at the Tyee. I used to get sore fingers trying to find your column hidden amongst the ads over at the Georgia Straight. Yeah, these guys were, as you say, "lacklustre" alright, but I really thought they did a pretty good job, considering there's no good reason for another election yet, anyway, except maybe Svend's and Ignatieff's begging--which really puts me into a weird, Hamletian dilemna of strategic voting--especially considering the numbers of voters Harper's winning over with his brand new grin.

and now the NDP have been caught in Ottawa having their supporters, while "working" on governmnet time and using government phones, to call voters and pitch NDP candidates . . . what would honest Ed think of that.

And ya wonder why taxpayers think the civil services across this land couldn't be weeded out by 20-30% of useless staff doing useless jobs as part of useless programs in pursuit of useless social engineering goals.

Oh ya, I forgot, if there had of been just one more basketball court in Toronto, none of the innocent victim gang members would be out shooting people.

Woody, I agree with you, (although I'm not sure if Bill or the Tyee added the byline..as it didn't fit with anything in the article).

Duceppe for BC!

Why can't Bono go away. "Bono" should never be mentioned in a leadership debate of any country.
That's just too wierd

The systematic concentration of power to the PMO has resulted in Canadians living in a fascist state run by a criminal organization called The Liberal Party of Canada, headed up by the dictator Paul Martin.
This criminal appoints the Justice's of The Supreme Court.
These justices interpet our Charted of Rights and Freedoms. The first line of this Charted reads " Whereas Canada is founded under the supremecy of God and the rule of law. "
Chief Justice Beverly MaClouclan speaking in New Zealand a few weeks back was heard to say that the Charter is mere words, that if they get in the way can be ignored and reinterpeted by the Court to suit present social conditions.
This is scary when you consider that a fascist criminal is presently appointing these Justices based on liberal tendencies with absolutely no vetting procedure whatsoever.
This has to stop now, and we are the only people who cad do it. We must throw the Liberals out of power in January.
Failure to do so will result in more corruption and entrenchmant of huge unweilding social programs that will rival the medicare sinkhole.
They would waste taxpayers money at an unprecedented pace.
They have already commited our money to buying carbon credits from non participating Kyoto Accord countries.
We have to elect a more practical government.
Steven Harper is a credible, pure, future Prime Minister.

Good review, Bill: (interesting quote)

But Harper had a telling rejoinder: "But the real contradiction here is the question Mr. Martin has to answer. If he believes it's a charter issue, why are there dozens of Liberal candidates running in this election who actually support the Conservatives position on the issue?" (Of same sex marrage)

Someone should tell Steven Harper that its called "Democracy", something that he might not yet be able to understand. Free votes work through forcing parties to recognize the separate views of each MP's constitutents and their rep's. But what, party leaders don't keep tabs on who votes freely? Harpers 8 year old speech is worth a look.

What's interesting in all this is Laytons Rhetoric. The Broadvent social conciousness of hammering the PC's of the Mulroney area where well justified; but when we look at who racked up Federal debt without having much to show for it, leaving a future government who had no choice to cut these same social programs, the same message doesn't fly because its mis-appropriately placed. It is only up until the last few years, that we have come to a position to afford to reverse social program cuts.
What worries me, is Harper's claim that "running surplus budgets in the Federal arena means a government that isn't doing its job properly", justifies his right to run red ink. It's like Harper doesn't recognize the difference commodity value has made in a country that relies heavily on commodity exports.
Arn't voters in a pickle? We've got a money man in Paul Martin (and you want one of those for broker, I assure you) who's so good at what he does, the provinces whine loudly with their own equalization cuts, but has voters in Quebec and across canada who vote for parties instead of individuals creating corruption that will dog Martin wherever he goes... a man who is forced to lie like Clinton for "the betterment of the country." We've got a charming but out of date and touch NDP leader, a PC leader who is clueless about fiscal policy, who compares his party to the Republicans and their so called moral majority, and unproven Greens who are still in platform early stages. Another minority government works for me.

Thanks for the many comments on my article on the debate - now a few answers.

As the author, I don't write either the headline or subhead.

And in fact I was actually referring to Stephen Harper as the "robot who would be prime minister" but wasn't clear enough for the good folks who edit the Tyee - my apologies. I also didn't say Duceppe was the loser - though he did set up Martin's attack - but would say Harper was.

To those who know me the idea that I am obviously a "true believer in the Liberal cause" is good for a long laugh. But none of us should avoid acknowledging the truth - like it or not, Martin came away the winner with a planned attack on separatism launched at the right moment.

Steve Lee's comments on changing the debate format are excellent - this was not a real debate at all. The other thing I would add is to go back to earlier debates where two of the leaders went head to head, while the other two were temporarily kept out of the debate - that allows more of a free exchange.

Lastly, while I always respect every individual's right to vote their beliefs, voting Green will not change the political landscape in this election.

My advice is that if you are a Green and support proportional representation - which I assuredly do not - your best bet is to vote NDP and help Jack Layton hold the balance of power in a minority government.

Why? Because Layton wants a PR system and it may be the price of his party's support, much as I disagree with PR.

The Greens will not win any seats anywhere again in this election - they are not even close in a single riding. Under a PR system they might win a few.

Regards - Bill Tieleman

I must say I thought this piece was pretty lame politically -- since when do progressive columnists laud fluffy Anglo-chauvinist preening? I suppose that since Jack Layton has gone back on his opposition to the Clarity Act, and the NDP homepage is equating French minorities in Canada with English minorities in Quebec (show me the Franco-Ontarian McGill, or the Franco-Albertan Royal Victoria, or the Acadian Westmount, or the Metis Concordia -- and when's the last time a BCer went to Quebec to pick fruit and then end up homeless?)Tieleman's stance isn't surprising.

Also, as a Quebecois born and raised in B.C., I appreciate Darcymcgee's distinction between 'Quebecer' and 'Quebecois'. I don't think I have ever met a French-Canadian from Quebec who used the term 'Quebecer' to identify themselves culturally or politically.

Because I live in Canada, I'm an NDPer, but there's no question that were I living in Quebec I'd vote for the Bloc. Duceppe has been as consistent a social democrat as anyone in the NDP leadership for years.

English Canadians are a funny breed: You won't let Quebec go, but you're mad when the issue takes up any space in national politics. The fact that CBC did a ten-minute piece about whether or not the Bloc should be in the English-language debate is Kafkaesque. Outside the leaders debate, when Duceppe got out of his car, the Liberal cheerleaders screamed "We love Canada! We love Canada!" Well, good for you. Nobody ever said you shouldn't. But what does the fact have to do with anything?

Glad you cleared up the headline mistake, Bill. I was sure you meant to say Harper, the robot. Nice to see a writer wade in too.

To Bill:
Thanks again for your clarity or lack of editorial clarity concerning your article. I agree with you for the most part about everything you've said, but I don't agree with your views on the Green Party concerning their votes as being wasted.
At some point, we are all going to have to ask ourselves seriously about wether or not an environmental party is needed in this country. I think you know in your heart what that answer is concerning the near and long term and no, the NDP isn't as environmental as you think.

Although NDP views are needed concerning our social policies, there isn't an environmental party that could be taken seriously with a platform to violate international laws of trade to preserve and protect the environment. The Greens know it.

Where the NDP leaves a huge hole for the Greens is with their environmental policies on healthcare and prevention, a voice that has yet to be heard until lately, and need I remind everyone that 1 in 25 voters were not officially represented in the debates?

.

You are one serious wack-o, Ron.

Correction: Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Paul von Hindenburg.

The extermination of the Jews was never enacted in any German law or assembly. It was decided at the Wannsee Confrence and carried out by the SS. The reason that all the death camps were outside Germany proper was this very lack of legislation.

The Liberal jew hating supporter , continually brings up the name of his hero Adolf thinking that there is a groundswell of Canadians who share in his hope of destroying Israel.
Most people find this very distaseful when they have a better choice of who will run this country.
Canada's poor record of support for Israel under the Leberal government is shameful.
Throw these criminal fascists out of office now.

To Charles:
Charles, I've worked with the Courdebois and Quebecois for many years side by side. I understand your distain for Canadians who get angry with Quebecs plans for European style separation. But balanced Canadians don't get angry. They get hurt! They get hurt because they know that the heart and soul of this country is smack dab in the middle of our nation.
Just look at the differences between our languages and how they change the way people communicate. English language puts verbs and adjectives before nouns, forcing English speakers to package their thoughts before they speak them (and some are piss poor at it). The french language doesn't have this time constricted forced packaged thought. It's language allows French speaking Canadians to think as they speak with verbs and adjectives coming after the subject or noun introduction, and it doesn't stop there.
The French language is one of inefficiency giving it cons, but ironically its own pro's. To read it, takes longer and this gives the French language its cons because when we read, we want to process information quickly. Anyone who's looked at the back of a milk carton can see it. To speak it, however, takes longer but it allows the speaker to chose their descriptive words more carefully and buys time for more facial and body expressions and thinking on the fly in terms of describing the subject itself.
In short, the English language to speak, is chop sticky. Efficient, but somewhat cold because it can be expressed too quickly (and truthfully, some morons can't keep up to their own words, creating hoof and mouth disease). But the French language, to speak, is expressive, because it buys time, allowing for the expression of passion to flourish and soak in and that's why Quebec is the heart and soul of this country. That's why this country is distinct and separate from all other nations in the world because we have such distinct forms of communication.
Together, we can be the best of nations without predjudice. But separate, we'll just become another U.S. state. You might not think its possible for this to happen in Quebec initially, but its possible for the rest of Canada. Have you ever played domino's? Put it on a 50 year timeline.

Together, we stand strong. Divided, we fall.
Our enemy is no longer East, West, or Central. It's always human prejudice, stupidity, and a semi corporate and political agenda of profits based on Greed, Pride and the hunger for fleeting power. And if we don't wake up to it soon we'll start realizing it too late, waking up one morning or decade broke and poor, or with an American flag in our own back yard, belonging to a nation that has the highest debt in the world and living on credit. Same thing. Broke and poor.
Balanced Canadians are also well aware that a vote for the Bloc is not necessarily a vote for separation. We also realize that
Duceppe makes sense with almost everything he's saying except for one. Separation. It's like saying we can amputate a part of the body and still be whole. Wouldn't he just love to be a leader of his own nation?
In all regards, I'm glad to have worked with you by my side Charles. Know that its good wills, goals and plans that heal and bad wills, goals and plans that divide. When we recognize this, everything becomes as transparent as glass.

To Truman: Hey, Buddy. I owe you some thanks. You've definitely helped me mature my craft. Go in peace.

You are one seriously twisted human being, Ron.

I didn't include Clark (or Turner or Kim Campbell or Rita Johnson) because they weren't in power long enough to have big scandals on their watch.

Harper says he will allow a free vote on gay marriage. But if his party has a majority of seats, it's safe to assume that gay marriage would lose on a free vote. He just keeps saying 'free vote' because it sounds good if you don't delve too deeply.

I also don't like his call for set elections. Isn't this a parliamentary democracy? That's not how it works. And his call for an elected senate would just give us more needless elections. People don't like the ones we have now, what makes him assume they'd like more?

I, too, don't understand why Duceppe is included in a national election debate when he doesn't front a national party. And I have nothing against Quebec. Hell, I can understand completely why they'd want to separate. But it would be just asridiculous for any regional party that doesn't run candidates beyond their region to be included in the debate.

That is a big if but Harper has to do something to placate the loony part of his party on at least one of their hidden agenda. Note that I avoid the word "fringe." Lunatics are in fact a large part of the present day "Conservative" party and are never far from the surface. Look at Ronnie here for the perfect example.

...put any of innumerable political names in here...

I have read with wonder and amazement, the numerous comments put forth by folks in this discussion and others in the various Tyee forums. All are good food for pensive thought. However, I have to put in my two-bits worth.

We are bent out of shape over what our recent governments have done or not done. Perhaps rightly so, but I can't help thinking, as I read snippets here and there concerning the politicians we revere from the past, that we live in much more informed times compared to the past that people had to deal with. We are able to find out what a wrongdoings a politician is up to rather quickly, and pass on that information relatively very rapidly... especially over the Internet... compared to the past.

Things were kept secret from the Great Unwashed, sometimes until long after the person is dead. Ignorance was bliss; people could look up to their politicians because they were so far removed from them and they never (or seldom) saw their warts and wrinkles.

I believe that the vast majority of people who go into politics do so for purely personal reasons, which may or may not really influence their concern for me as an individual. They have their own "axe to grind". They really don't care what I need or what I want, unless it coincidentally coincides with their view. If they "have to" do something which hurts me, or others, they will, and probably not loose much sleep over it.

The bottom line is: they are in politics for their own reasons, period. Why else would they be there?

When something like this debate comes up, they will say things that hopefully irritate me the least so that I will vote for them rather the other guy who might have ticked me off a bit more. In the end, whether they are Liberal, Conservative, NDP or Green, they have their own adjenda and will act accordingly.

Now, with the media able to let everyone look up their nostrals as they speak (they get that close almost with TV coverage), the public sees that their adjendas are quite divergent from their own, and things happen like here in Chilliwack during the last local election, when only 14% of the electorate took the time to vote. I heard over and over, "There's no one to vote for!"

Most of the other people just figured, "What the H*ll, why bother?! They will do what they want anyway." OR "What how will my one vote change things?"

I remember a study back when Clinton was elected which found that nearly 50% of the women voted for him ONLY because he was good looking! Talk about a reason to elect someone!

I fear we are not much better up here in the Great White North when it comes to picking a candidate.

So, whoever we vote it, I do not expect to have anything different happen no matter who wins. It will result in the same headlines: SCANDLE!!!

I further fear that the old saying will prove true once more: We always get the government we deserve. (That is the Royal We).

And, Mr. Erwin, I think I would be greatly tempted to move to the States if Harper is elected in... he is, to me, a very scary guy, and not a fit representative for me. :)

Personally, I really liked old Joe Who...

To Gilarthur: It's true what you say, each individual in politics has their own axe to grind. But when odd one gets sharp, take note of which direction their swingin'. And we so love to bash politicians, don't we? They make good targets for all of the right reasons... most of them.

But a few swing a sharp edge in the right direction. I personally liked Tommy Douglas who...

Harper is a guy who did all the right things to get where he is. He took life seriously early in life. Got an education and a degree.
He never made more than 50-60K in his life.
He believed in Canada and worked his way up through the system without coming from any special eastern elite family.
Paul Martin on the otherhand was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Inherited Canadian Steamship Lines as well as lot of political capital from his Liberal elite father.
His company doesn't even pay any taxes in Canada alyhough he makes 300-400 million dollars a year from the venture " I love Canada "
I guess he does. He is a continuation of the original crime family of The Liberals starting with the Duplusius Premier of Quebec earlier.
We are suckers to support this group.
Did you ever wonder why there is only one member of the Libranos elected in each Province of Sask. and Alta.
The people of Edmonton should finally toss landslide Annie into the trash bucket. And Ralph Goodale in Sask. should be in jail from his leaks on the Income Trust fiasco.
Imagine the Liberal mandarins in Ottawa, in their big brick homes and their BMW's in the driveway, the childrens tuition payed up at McGill . These scumbags have cost your family a decent standard of living. They need to go.
Only we can vote these bastards out.
Vote for the regular working man. Vote for Harper.

No friggin way! You think I want someone like you running this country? I want people who are more educated and experienced with craploads of money than I calling the shots. Not some average schmuck.

That "regular guy" thing is what they succesfully tried to do to get Bush Elected. So I'm not surprised to see cons here trying it. And look what happened there? Only he's not a regular guy, it's actually amazing someone from his background can be so daft.
Either way, it's good to know it won't work here, Canadians can't be fool by dumbing down to what guys like Harper think is the level of the common man.

By the way, your hero voted in favour of the gun registry.

By the way, your hero wanted to go into Iraq. Read it and weep.
It's in Paul Celucci's ( Sorry for the spelling ) the previous US Ambassador, book.
Sure, he's lying, right?
Steven Harper had to voice a strong opposition to help prevent our faithful , yet fragile forces get in harms way, whereas they have been emasculated by the Liberals.
Mr. Martins recent attacks against the US to advance his political ambitions, from a multi-millionaire spoiled brat, who will never have to face the consequences that an Ontario auto worker or a Western beef farmer or a Westren logger. The USA being a country we export one billion dollars a day in goods to, who's culture we use as our own. His reckless remarks are frightening.
This man is out of control and must be stopped before he does us any more harm.

You are going to be one disappointed man on January 24, Ron.

12/17/05
LIB 38
CON 30
NDP 15
BQ 13
GRN 4

Ron, Harper would be better off if people like you didn't vocally support him. It makes him look bad.

As for the Martin in Iraq issue - I'm not Martin fan, but Harper totally took the Cellucci quote out of context. Martin was considering putting troops in Iraq to help train security forces - a far cry from Harper's implication that they were going to fight in the war.

Cellucci didn't lie - Harper did.

Matt, see my post regarding how close to the surface the lunatics are in the Conservative Party of Canada. Ron is the proof and the reason that they are unelectable in Ontario.

As for the person who thinks the NDP will be wiped out in this election due to low polling numbers, look again. The NDP only polled at 12/13 percent for less than a week. The NDP has had rock solid support in the mid/upper teens for the last two years, and polls have shown the NDP up 3 points in the last few days. If there was an election tomorrow at these levels, they might even gain seats, having carried less than 16% of the popular vote in the last election. They're not going anywhere, and will almost surely hold the balance of power in the next Parliament.

And Quebec. ;-)

Ontario Mscmontario, who cares., obviously you do. That is because that's the ONLY sorry place they have any traction. And it's only going to get worse. The Conservatives will be able to count on the West to come to the table when it really counts ( Toss Landslide Annie in Edmonton ) BC will still come through. It's important.
Ontario will be an unpleasant surprise for the Libranos. Quebec will KILL them. Maybe one or two seats from la Belle Provance.
Canadians enmasse will through out this corrupt regime.

Which one?

Layton: Professor of poli-science, city councillor, MP
Martin: lawyer, executive, shipping magnate, MP, PM
Harper: Aid to MP, Executive Assistant to another MP, MP, NCC Head, MP
Duceppe: Operating Room orderly, Trade Union Organizer, MP
Harris: Financial writer turned, financial writer.

Harper , economist, remember that.
And hockey dad as well.

Well, whoever wins, politics will still suck, eh?
I'm glad that I live in South Korea and I don't have to view the debates. But on the other hand I have to deal with Korean bureaucracy! YUCK!!

Ron: PLEASE SMOKE SOME BC BUD!
You are flaming out dude!
Or better yet, eat some kimchi (No SARS in South Korea, eh?!)and drink some relaxing green tea (full of oxidants)!

Here's to another minority government and another election in one to two years!

Kevan Hudson
Voting Overseas Yet Again

It's funny how they look after they're own, eh, Ronnie? You've got to like Harper with his 500 Bucks for any family who puts their kids through sports. "Beer and Popcorn!"

Does anybody even know that there ARE canadian troops serving in Iraq right now? I recently saw a news clip with a canadian officer who was posted in Afghanistan and involved in one of those trading places deals with a US company of soldiers, that got moved to Iraq, so he followed them.

For Harper to invoke Paul Celucci's name into Friday's debate was a lame move.

For one, Martin's intentions were distorted completely out of context. Secondly, whose eyes don't roll into the back of their head when they hear the name of the arrogant, Canada-bashing former ambassador?

Harper's gambit failed big time and his revelatory "lie" is coming back to hurt him in headlines and chatlines around the country.

Had Friday's forum been a real debate, he'd never have pulled such a stunt.

Was trying to think of an analogy for all Canadian taxpayers supporting the Bloc party...and the Bloc even being in this debate...
What about this?...
I would dread having my mother exterminated but if someone really wants to do the job, I'll contribute towards the exterminator's expenses...

Jack's

What the fock are you saying, are you crackers or what?

“This is a campaign kind of war…. Debates and what leaders do is just the air war. In the end we have to take advantage of the bombs we drop. We’ve got to have the troops go out there on the ground and hold that territory.”
— Conservative Leader Stephen Harper to party supporters after the Dec. 16 debate.

P.S. - Nice to see the editor's have chosen a more fitting headline to this story.

P.S. my apologies for the possessive apostrophe in that last post. Shoddy.

WHy do COns lie so much. I mean, you're flat out lying. Anyone who did no more than watch the News can remember Harper's rants against us NOT going to Iraq.
But the old con thing is to just lie and hope you fool people one at a time.

P.S. Martin is not my hero and won't be getting my vote.

to Woody..

The analogy is.... All of us taxpayers are paying toward the Bloc party's existence. The Bloc party, unless you are unaware, is trying to, in effect, destroy Canada.

I didn't think it was that difficult to understand. ?

I usually don't agree with working man but I have to say I do agree when it comes to Ronnie,

Just shake the bushes and they all come out, the anti human rights crowd, gun nuts hard on crime nuts

The God , Gays and Gun's crowd. Just shake the bushes and you will know why the folks in Ont and anywhere east does not vote for them. The Randy White crowd and others cannot keep their mouths shut.

We conservatives have 2 candidates who worked closely with focus on the family, the US fundamentalist group that helped BUSH get elected . One is Silver in North Van and the other is in the Valley somewhere. They have both publicly mused about the gay and abortion issues.

I am for a Ron Erwin on every corner with his anti abortions nasty photo in one hand and his Stevie Harper in the other, LOL. I love it, hey Merry X Mas folks.

Brain, thanks for that, especially considering the number of insults we hurled at each other after the "I'm voting Green" article. I really did enjoy your treatise on the "pros" and "cons", as you say, of English and French. I've never read anything like it. It's fresh, creative and, okay, even brilliant. All the best.

Here's an article showing how Hard Harper worked to keep the lads out of Iraq

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1049464033397_20?s_name=&no_ads=

Sorry to hog the thread, but thanks for the link, jamez. Harper goes down South and insults and misrepresents his own nation. What was he talking about--"most Canadians would prefer to send troops to Iraq"? He's just plain lying about that. Sorry, NDP, I'm definitely voting Liberal now. Who is this guy, anyway? He makes Michael Ignatieff and David Frum look like obssessive Canadian patriots!

Yeah, and check this one today... he slams Quebec then and for years the Cons complain about special treatment to Quebec...and now today what comes out? He's gonna treat em evem MORE special than the Libs!

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/051219/n121921A.html

"Please vote for me PLEEAASSE" Little slimeball.

Truman, that means in your riding the race is between the libs and the cons? Not, the NDP and the cons?

Here in BC often it is between the NDP and the Libs and voting NDP isn't a risk that would put the cons in, but voting lib is.

oops, that is here is BC it often is between the NDP and the Cons, not libs...

Jack's ok so your pissed with the Bloc parties existence, in addition you claim that their out to destroy Canada.
First question, how will the Bloc carry this out? (destroy canada)
Second what Quebec party held the referendum on seperation from Canada.

BC Mary- touche... haha.
It's all just the SAME OL' SHIIIIIITE!

OOOPS! When was Dachau moved outside of the borders of Germany? There are also many others within Germany, one where the V1 and V2 rockets were made plus one in Northern Germany which is now a NATO training center.

Dachau was used to kill and incarcerate homosexuals and political prisoners, all well within the laws of the Reich. To read a good fictional account, but highly factual, read Winter by Len Deighton.

The first debate is just the phoney war phase of the election campaign. The second debate on January 8-9 will be more significant. What I found intriguing in one poll is that while most Canadians thought Martin won the English debate(followed by Layton and then Harper), 95% of Canadians said it wouldn't change their minds. Also, Canadian's impressions of BOTH Martin and Harper improved by 35 and 34% respectively(ie: a dead heat).

This tells me that Harper is no longer that scary guy in 2004 that many Canadians feared. He is becoming more acceptable and 'tolerable' to voters. In that murky sense, Harper gained something from the first debate, other than the fact he managed to outline his party's policies rather than constantly defend it from attack. Whether Harper can show more warmth on the TV screen and win more support in Ontario will only be known after January 2 when the real campaign begins. Expect a bunch of nasty ads from the Liberals and Conservatives.

To Truman: Thanx and ditto. And those heated exchanges... to feel a pulse like that is to know we've lived! I'd take the odd burn from a roast to be a part of that one. To cool, dude.

Hey Truman: Go to "Playing Climate Catch Up" and click onto "Balloons".

check out martin's language during the debates. 'we want to', 'we intend to', 'we'd like to', 'we should'. that's what happens when you spend 12 years in power and accomplish virtually nothing. canadians are stupid enough to fall for it. mon dieu! quelle blague!

Sometimes its better to do nothing than to do something stupid

Workingman got it only half right. Dachau was set up in the mid 1930s as a 're-education' camp for political prisoners. But one should not depend of fiction when the documentation is there stating otherwise. Refer to After the Battle, issue 27 on Dachau (see page 14)
"The train was full of corpses, 2310 of them to be exact." The train was in the unloading yard of Dachau. The survivors were in the camp for the 'final solution'. The 'prisoners' on the train were Hugarian and Polish Jews. Dachau and other 'camps' were within the borders of Germany and were used as extermination camps.

Correct, Burgess. The Germans started killing Jews in Germany proper after the Polish death camps were over-run in the summer of 1944. However, the great majority of the Jews murdered by the Nazis were outside Germany. The Polish Jews killed at Dachau in the final days of the war were in fact the trusties that the SS used in the death camps in Poland.

Have a read of this if you are interested:

J. Noakes and G. Pridham, ed. . Nazism 1919-1945: Foreign Policy, War and Racial Extermination: A Documentary Reader. Nazism Series, Volume 3

This series consists of translated German documents. They chillingly barbaric.

Ron Erwin you make my day. You almost make me feel like defending Martin. I always think of politics as a circle and you are so far to the right you almost sound like a Stalanist. And the Nazis and Stalanists were very similar ,they close the circle .You are so extremely right wing I suspect you actually drive people to the left. Are you a NDPer in Harpers clothing?

Elliot:

Exactly, Elliot!

CRD, I am not sure how you get a right hand side of a circle, but, it seems a leap to twist me into a Nazi of Stalanist.
Canadians are so left wing , generally, that when you here from a conservative like me I appear extremely right wing.
There are many likeminded people like me in Canada. Lets call us the silent minority.
We will see how it all comes down on Jan.23, but I feel that the tide as shifting in Canada.

In Ontario, Ron, it is now Lib 44, Con 27, NDP 16.

Nationally it is Lib 37 Con 29 NDP 16.

People such as yourself actually aid Martin's campaign. He knows it, too.

I think Steven Harper is doing a lot better than even I expected. I don't know what polls Working Man keeps citing, but if you take his numbers as being accurate they still don't scare me any.
Look at the Ontario numbers. What weight is given to Toronto numbers. We all know that the Conservatives are weak there. So take Toronto out and what do we see ? I don't know, but I would guess
Con 42%
Lib 40%
NDP 18%

If the Conservatives can win a respectable amount of seats in the rest of Ontario, they have a good chance.
The Lib's will be decimated in Quebec. The Conservatives are getting much more attention there and may eek out one seat.
The Maritime won't change much.
In the west, although the NDP are looking stronger in BC, they are likely to lose a few seats in Manitoba.
Edmonton must get rid of Landslide Annie and Sask. dump Goodale.
I am certainly not going to say the Conservatives are going to form a minority Govt., but they will have more seats.
I am very surprised at how much more respect Mr. Harper is getting from the mainstream press, even the CBC. People seem to be warming up to him. There doesn't seem to be ant dirt to be dug up on him. He is actually an honest and credible man.
It's close, real close. I am pumped up.

Ron Erwin you may be right about the the silent majoriy and if so there goes Medicare hello USA type health care and a bunch more of those left wing things that the CCF-NDP forced the Libs to do like old age pensions.

Is Shirly Douglas running in Sask if so that should be good for 2or 3 NDP MPs in Sask and Ron [ED'S BACK] in Manitoba

Ed is homophobic, so you are right he might get elected in Manitoba.
Medicare like the US ? I doubt it, probably more like Europe. Don't worry.
I don't think Shirley Douglas is running but I really don't know.

I actually agree with Ron. We are moving, whether the lefites like it or not, to a European mix of private and public health care. It simply works better. We are not getting the service we deserve for $134,000,000,000 a year. Tossing more money at it has never worked and will not work in the future. I have experience both systems and the European system works better. There is actually accountability in it.

Here is the link, Ron;

http://www.nodice.ca/elections/canada/polls.php

And Ronnie Boy, I wonder where you get your self serving numbers. All the polling organizations are getting numbers for Greater Toronto like this:

Lib 50 Con 29 NDP 16

For outside Toronto, the numbers are like this:

Lib 40 Con 36 NDP 18

This is the link:

http://www.nodice.ca/elections/canada/polls-ontario.php

As much as you and your white sheet over age 60 friends want it to be, this is the Reform Party's last shot. Its voters are dying off and Harper will never form a government. Just as with the NDP, demographics are the enemy of the Reformers and the White Sheet Set.

The demographics may favour the Conservatives actually.
The fact we are even discussing such a thing is a measure of the fear that the Liberals actually have for the Conservatives.
Look at the politicians themselves. They are old. Martin is old.
Steven Harper is very young. And innocent.
His followers are more dedicated to him than you might not want to believe.
No fear in Ontario, it looks like an increase of members.

This has been fun but I think I have better things to do than read or post comments .Like me these really arn't going to change anyones mind.

Read the Toronto Star editorial today based on facts Dec 22/05 about PUBLIC HEALTH CARE CHEAPEST AND BEST.

Show me how, Ron. I don't see many non-white faces in your party. Provide a scource for your statement.

I guess Ron's village found him.

All you private health care promoters are very misinformed aka Ron Erwin , working man.

The NAFTA agreement in which we are a signatory removed heath care from the deal because Mulroney knew Canadians would never buy into the deal if heath care was on the chopping block.

Lets compare the facts and reality for a second.

The US system is more expensive, 5 times more per person. Private care has to be more expensive as you need the profit motive in the mix.

By every measure including the infant mortality rate ( global standard) the US system is worst for patent care.

The US system excludes 44 mil people who have no coverage.

50% of all US bankruptcies in the US in 2004 were from families who could not afford the health care costs.

And Stop the European health care sell, if we open up our health care the US as written into NAFTA will have first dibs into our system. NAFTA requires that we give the US first priority . We will have a US system and all the frills I have mentioned above. Give me a break with the European crap, all the supreme court interveners were US and Canadian
private firms licking their lips.

Their is a reason we decided to switch to the system we have today.

Ane I expect the typical CKNW response from the usual puppet masters who post here, we only provide private care to Workers comp claims etc and we only provide basic services and not major care like the public system.