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Bashu Naimi-Roy is a smart kid.
"In college, the students are like customers," he says matter-of-factly, "but in high school, they're more like…"
He pauses for just long enough for his mother, Anita Roy, to finish his sentence.
"Prisoners," she says and laughs. "I just had to throw that in. It's true though."
At age 12, Bashu was the youngest student ever to enroll at Malaspina University-College. He's 13 now and still studying there.
"Yeah," he says, agreeing with his mother's comment. "Detention, drills, getting permission to go to the bathroom." He shakes his head. "In high school, the kids have to be there, so you can do anything you want to them. But in university, if students don't like a course for some reason, they can just drop it."
It's not hard to see where Bashu's independent attitude comes from. His mother has never been afraid to think, and act, outside of society's imposed norms. None of her three sons were enrolled in elementary or high school, being educated instead by Roy and her husband.
"I believe in education," she says, "I don't believe in schooling."
They might agree with Mark Twain, when he wrote, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."
Roy and her sons are part of a growing community of what they call "unschoolers": parents and students who feel that the pedantic structures of the public school system are stifling kids by starving them of creativity and passion.
Scientific creativity
Unschooling, also known as "independent learning" or "experience-based learning," differs from conventional homeschooling, where a student will generally follow a set curriculum, which is often based directly on the public school system's program.
Instead, unschooling students are encouraged to find the path that works best for them, and empowers them to choose their own intellectual destinies. Unschoolers agree with George Bernard Shaw when he said, "We want to see the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child."
Public school students "are told when to be creative, and when to be excited about something," Roy says. "[Teachers] say, 'Now you have to be excited about the ABCs,' and an hour later, 'now you have to be excited about the color red.' What happens if the kid's not? Or what if at nine o'clock she is excited about the color red, and not what the teacher wants her to be? It's always their agenda, and that kills the creativity. The message the kids get is 'your creativity isn't as important as our schedule.'"
Roy says that creativity, above almost all else, is vital to our growth as humans.
"You need creativity for everything. People think 'oh creativity, that's just artsy-fartsy shit,' and that's not true. You need creativity to be a good philosopher, scientist, anthropologist, or even a cop. Creativity is our lifeforce, and if you don't nurture it, you just walk around like a robot."
One of the loudest voices of the unschooling movement is John Taylor Gatto, a former New York State and New York City Teacher of the Year and author of Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling and other books on public education.
"Have you seen 2001: A Space Odyssey?" Gatto asked in a recent interview with "Do you remember when somebody's removing the brain cores from Hal [the spacecraft's talking computer], pulling them out, and HAL gets more and more childish? Well, that's the job assigned to compulsory schooling."
'Dumbing us down'
Gatto's book, Dumbing us Down, which was originally published in 1992, has just been re-released by Gabriola Island's New Society Publishers to celebrate 100,000 copies of the book in print. Made up of the speeches he gave on receiving his two Teacher of the Year awards from the U.S. Senate, "The Psychopathic School" and "The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher," the book is a scathing indictment of North American public schools and their intended purpose.
Gatto says, since the publication of his book over a decade ago, many more people are aware of the harm caused by public schooling and the mechanisms through which the harm is conducted. There are now over two million homeschoolers in North America, and the number is growing.
"Government schools are considerably worse than they've ever been," Gatto says.
"They cost a good deal more money than they did then, and they've abandoned any pretense, except rhetorically, of actually delivering either intellectual or moral training." In the pages of Dumbing Us Down, referring to his (then) 26 years as a teacher in Manhattan, he writes, "I began to realize that the bells and the confinement, the crazy sequences, the age-segregation, the lack of privacy, the constant surveillance, and all the rest of the national curriculum of schooling were designed exactly as if someone had set out to prevent children from learning how to think and act, to coax them into addiction and dependent behavior."
High school day care
Bob Lane, founding director of the Institute of Practical Philosophy and former founding director and president of the Vancouver Island Literacy Society, says that "officially" our schools are supposed to "prepare young people to be intelligent participants in our parliamentary democracy - and to train them for work. "Actually," he says, "it doesn't do a very good job of either."
Natalia Gonzalez is a 15-year-old who recently dropped out of high school and enrolled in the Ministry of British Columbia's Distance Education Program, but plans on unschooling after this school year is finished. She has been going to public schools since kindergarten, but became fed up with inflexible standards, lazy teachers and mundane textbooks.
"I just felt like I was wasting my time," she says. "It seemed to me that what I was learning … had no bearing on real life."
Like Bashu, Natalia is a very smart kid. She's a member of the New Democratic Party, has been published in Malaspina's campus newspaper, the Navigator, and is an associate editor and contributor.
"I really enjoyed my classes, like social studies and science," she says, "but I just felt isolated when I was the only one who was asking questions about a subject. It seemed like the other students and the teachers would get annoyed with it, like everyone just wanted to get it over with and go home."
Lane, who was a college and university instructor for over 30 years, says, "The school has become a child care centre -- much needed since families require two wage earners to make a go of it in the global economy. One wonders if it serves the purpose of educating students -- at times it seems merely a place for warehousing them."
For Natalia, the rapid bombardment of trivial information and lack of context made it hard to get interested in school subjects, let alone become passionate about them.
"All you get is little bits and pieces of history, science, and politics," she says, "but nothing that connects them all together … to give a bigger picture of life. Most kids don't learn when you're being fed so much information: names, dates, and so on. And the tests come by so fast that I'll study, and do a good job on the test, but it won't matter because a week later everything I just learned will be out the window, to make way for a bunch of new stuff. The way they teach you, you never really retain, or learn, anything. All of the students are pretty much just regurgitating the same answers, then forgetting them."
'Captains of industry'
"The best schools probably draw on ten to 20 percent of what young people are [intellectually] capable of," Gatto says, "and they're intended to do that. They want to train you to move inside a very narrow compass; it's what they're set up to do. And they want to train you inside the narrowest compass to be a specialist and waste your life mastering an extremely narrow bit of a whole so that you never, never, never will tamper with policy."
Writing in Harper's magazine in 2003, Gatto explained how "mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for through most of the nineteenth century." He notes that throughout most of American history, children didn't attend public schools, "yet the unschooled rose to be admirals, like Farragut; inventors, like Edison; captains of industry, like Carnegie and Rockefeller; writers like Melville and Twain and Conrad; and even scholars, like Margaret Mead."
Gatto explained that the Canadian public education system, which since 1867 has been under provincial responsibility and control, was developed in tandem with its fundamentally identical American counterpart to "convince the majority of people that their economic lives hang by a thread, and if they don't do what their told to do, they'll be doomed and ostracized."
Chomsky's filter
Gatto is by no means alone in his claims. Noam Chomsky, the great linguist and political activist once called "arguably the most important intellectual alive," by the New York Times, writes in Understanding Power that public education is a "system of imposed ignorance," that was instituted in the United States and elsewhere as "a technique to beat independence out of the heads of farmers and turn them into docile and obedient factory workers."
"In fact," Chomsky writes, "the whole educational and professional training system is a very elaborate filter, which just weeds out people who are too independent, and who think for themselves, and who don't know how to be submissive, and so on -- because they're dysfunctional to the institutions."
In his Harper's article, Gatto draws from a number of sources in explaining how the North American school system was adapted from a 19th century Prussian system and was "intended to be just what it had been for Prussia in the 1820s: a fifth column into the burgeoning democratic movement that threatened to give the peasants and the proletarians a voice at the bargaining table." The system was to "make sort of a surgical incision into the prospective unity of these underclasses. Divide children by subject, by age-grading, by constant ranking on tests, and by many other more subtle means, and it was unlikely that the ignorant mass of mankind, separated in childhood, would ever reintegrate into a dangerous whole."
Speechless
One of the ways that the public school system accomplishes its intended purpose, Gatto says, is by focusing disproportionately on reading and almost totally ignoring speaking and writing.
"If you ask 1000 people in Canada what literacy was … they'd probably say reading. Well, that's the third in the order of importance, or at best, tied for number two. Back in the days when Canada was a British colony and so was the United States, literacy identified the division between active literacy and passive literacy. Passive literacy is clearly reading. The active literacy, which is requisite of readership, is speaking and writing."
The focus on passive literacies, Gatto says, leads to passive students.
"If you went to the elite private boarding schools," he says, "you would find an unbelievable stress on the active literacies. But if you went into the best public schools in Canada or the United States, you would not find that. And you would get an explanation that … there's simply not enough time to do that. We can't afford to teach writing, and where would the time come for giving every kid daily practice in speaking before audiences? I'll tell you from experience, if you want to do those things, you can, in fact, find the time and the mechanisms. The idea though, is to put the active literacies to death because, without the active literacies, you don't have a prayer of ever influencing anyone else."
Throughout his interview, it was evident that Gatto's active literacy skills, including his talent for summarizing his subversive concepts with everyday examples, had not been suppressed or squashed by his years within the public school system.
Standardized thinking
"In your entire lifetime of buying and renting services and negotiating contracts," Gatto asked, "have you ever even thought of asking a person what their standardized test score or their grade point average was? Because with the stress and drum beating that you hear across Canada and across the United States and other places, you would assume that you wouldn't go to an auto mechanic without asking him what his score was in mechanic school. Wouldn't you be a fool not to have that information if, in fact, it were information? Wouldn't you want to ask your barber what his grade was in barber school, let alone your lawyer, your physician, your architect?
"The very fact that universally nobody asks for these things is all you need to know that the information is worthless. It's worthless … No, I take that back. It's extremely valuable in showing whether a person is obedient, because the only way you do well on those tests is by memorizing the dots you're told to memorize. You're never asked to connect the dots."
Lane says that by "turning education over to 'professionals,' we have grown away from the learning process and become locked in our old ideas and methods." This system gives us "the illusion that we are passing our values on to the next generation when we have not really thought about what those values are."
He says that a better system would recognize that "one size does not fit all."
"We need to maximize individual choice, encourage creativity, discourage lock-step, make what is studied meaningful and real, involve parents and siblings, grandparents and workers in the process," he says.
Unschooling vs homeschooling
These ideas are the basis for unschooling. But what is unschooling exactly, and how does it differ from regular homeschooling?
Wendy Priesnitz, editor of Life Learning Magazine and author of School Free: The Homeschooling Handbook, writes on her website, "Although 'homeschooling' has become a generic term, it has many uses, which are not always accurate or precise. Its use is appropriate; I believe, to describe a parent-driven, school-at-home style of education. But it is not accurate to describe a learner-driven style of education, which uses life and the world as its resource, and which most certainly doesn't look like school."
Priesnitz writes that there are many different forms of student-directed learning, and many names to call them by: "In many cases, the terms 'homeschooling,' 'deschooling,' 'unschooling,' 'home-based learning,' 'home-based education,' and 'self-directed learning' are used interchangeably.
Unfortunately, there is no standardized terminology that everyone understands as describing the type of learning lifestyle that we're exploring in Life Learning [The International Magazine of Self-Directed Learning]."
Anita Roy stresses that self-directed learning isn't about letting the kids run wild with no direction, but about choices.
"It's not hands off, that's for sure. You must tell your kids, 'I'm going to present you with lots of opportunities, I'm going to give you stimulating environments, but I want you to develop where you want to go with it.'"
Above all, unschooling is about letting students explore their environments for themselves, with guidance, encouragement, and a wide array of resources provided by parents.
'Nutrition of knowledge'
"It is nutrition of knowledge;" Roy says, "it's my job to offer the kids healthy choices. And even more importantly than that, a loving environment."
Many parents recognize that public schools may not be the best environment for intellectual development, but worry that taking their kids out of the system may have dire implications for their futures. Unfortunately, in Canada, unless they are enrolled in a learn-at-home program from a registered school, self-directed students will not receive a Dogwood Diploma.
Without his persistent mother on his side, Bashu, who decided completely on his own to go to university, may never have had his experiences as the youngest student at Malaspina University-College. Getting the school to accept him wasn't that easy.
"At first they were like, 'well he should finish high school first,'" she says. "Nowhere did I see anyone say 'hey, this is an opportunity for Malaspina. Let's do something about this. Here's a kid who is interested and capable.' It was more like, we were an inconvenience pestering them."
"When people choose alternatives, there are implications," says Malaspina's Registrar Fred Jacklin. "If a young person comes to us who is home-schooled, there are rules in place to help them. But when they are that young, we must exercise caution." The university has certain guidelines in place for young students, but Bashu was a unique case.
"We have an admissions policy which is set by the education council, which allows students who are not high school graduates, and who don't qualify for mature student entry, to take one course," Jacklin says.
'Orwellian nonsense'
Roy explained to the university that Bashu wasn't going to high school, and they told her they didn't "have any policy to place him under," she says. "It was like complete Orwellian nonsense." Malaspina bent its policy a little, allowing Bashu to attend one class per semester rather than only one class period. Says Jacklin: "In Bashu's case, we interpreted the policy in a very liberal fashion."
Although the school accepted Bashu, his age may have been a barrier.
"I think with kids that young," Jacklin says, "there are concerns about socialization." Bashu, though only thirteen, says he blends in almost seamlessly with the classmates in his Japanese class, who are of all shapes and sizes.
"I'm not sure if any of them know how young I am," he says.
Bashu regularly takes part in class discussions and holds his own: he graduated from his first university class, Philosophy 100, with an A+.
Less 'squash'
"Obviously not all kids can do what Bashu did," says Roy, "but there are many who could if they were given the chance."
In a press release for her book, Challenging Assumptions in Education, Priesnitz suggests that many of society's problems, such as violence, high levels of unemployment and increasing gaps between rich and poor "are indications of an education system that has outlived its usefulness … they will not be solved with more money, more schools, more teachers or even student codes of conduct." She says that what is required is "to dismantle the one-size-fits-all industrial paradigm that processes and warehouses students, and replace it with a community-based learning society that will accommodate the individuality of learners of all ages, interests, abilities and styles." Gatto sees hope in the future of education. In Harper's, he writes that as parents, we too often underestimate our children and need to recognize their true potential.
"After a long life, and thirty years in the public school trenches, I've concluded that genius is as common as dirt," he writes. "We suppress our genius only because we haven't yet figured out how to manage a population of educated men and women. The solution, I think is simple and glorious. Let them manage themselves."
Roy is also convinced that we can overcome our current problems.
"Nobody's saying that public schooling squashes everybody. It doesn't, but it does squash a lot. And there is a better way."
Jeremiah Vandermeer is a student at Malaspina University College. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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murdock
7 years ago
Comments on "Unschooling"
Absolutely Fantastic that Tyee has seen fit to print this story.
More creative thinking must go into the future of our youth, allowing merit to rule rather than just the 'rules'.
bc4me
7 years ago
Congratulations to Bashu, and the kids and families courageous enough to question the motivation and content of conventional schooling, and to follow their own passions. As a parent and innovative educator I deeply regret that our conventional education system is far more oriented to systemic control of its main clients than to nurturing authentic learning. The two most significant plebiscites on 'public education' in this province: The Sullivan Commission of the 1980s and the recent 'Charter for Public Education' were both clear in their results: people - BC citizens - are clear that they desire a more flexible education system that supports more learning choices for students. Government isn't listening to its citizens. Rather than providing more flexibility, it has chosen a different tack characterized by more standardized testing. And now Ontario is about to force kids to stay in high school until they are 18! SelfDesign Learning Community - the program of which I am a co-founder (and in which Bashu participated last yeasr) is likely the most innovative program supported by the MinEd in BC; we don't impose the curriculum but we do value and validate the holistic learning proclivities of kids, ages 5-14 years. Last year we had several students who were interested in, or were taking university-level course, and we lobbied the education minister for program support for 15-17 year-olds. We were denied the extension with no explanation. We are preparing to re-lobby this year. - Michael Maser
Louise
7 years ago
Full time High school teachers have student loads of 175 to 225 students, whom they see once every two days. Class numbers range from 20 to 35 students.
The ratio of students to teachers precludes the terrific experience a dedicated home school teacher can give to students. Compare the ratios 1:1 vs 1:200.
For most people, economics limit their choices. Funding for schools is DOWN since the 1970's; it appears higher but many additional costs have been downloaded to school districts that used to be covered directly by the ministry.
I work in a high school where the funding for materials for science classes is $100 per class for the year. It has gone steadily down in the last 4 years. That limits the number of lab experiments that are done.
Lazy teachers? I am amazed by the variety and creativity brought to the classroom by my son's teachers. When I look through his binders, I realize there is no way I could give him the breadth of experiences in the wide array of subjects he studies.
Home schooling is certainly nothing new. Many wealthy Brits were schooled at home by tutors, of varying expertise.
Look at the ratios and the funding. If you want public schools to offer the same opportunities as 1:1 teacher pupil ratios, prepare to put more tax money into education!
nightbloom
7 years ago
Great article.
It's a real problem, isn't it. Everyone knows the public system is broken, but how on earth do we fix it?
The government position is understandable, in that they can't be seen to be neglecting their responsibilities. Few overworked, underremunerated, stressed-out parents have time or can afford the alternatives. Are we really talking about alternatives for the Kitsilano set?
The best learning is self-learning (once a young person reaches a certain level of maturity, and can self-direct).
Beware Chomsky. I once had a deep affinity for his writing. His criticism is necessary & useful, but it requires realistic counter-balance with other sources & thinkers. The institutionalization of the professions has certain uses, but he is correct that its filtration apparatus effectively locks out some inspired and idiosyncratic virtuosos (as well as the nut-cases).
marta
7 years ago
Vandermeer seems to have swallowed Chomsky and Gatto's assertions whole. Oh and he's parroting Ms Roy's and Mr Lane's obvious hatred of the education system as well.
What if there were no publicly funded schools?(or prisons as Bashu would call them, although here he seems to be parroting his mother since he supposedly never went to school)
A free public education is a great priviledge. Perhaps we should start charging for education and getting rid of all the troublemakers and students who are substandard mentally, and then you'd have classrooms where the brightest students could engage in the kind of scintillating discussion which we would all like. Perhaps then, people would actually value education.
But is that what society wants? You either have a public education system that attempts to educate all types and comers or you don't. And having an open door policy means making some compromises.
I admire kids like Bashu, but he is an exception.
And pul-ease calling the college "Orwellian" because it wanted some proof that a very young student could keep up?
Plus, Bashu's calling college students "customers" made my skin crawl! Yikes.
This article got up my nose as you can tell. And, no, I am not a teacher. However, I am in the post-seconadry system, and I've seen enough home-schooled kids to know that ones like Bashu are rare.
cobbeth
7 years ago
That sounds like the ideas of thinkers like FA Hayek? Wow, a case for individuality being made on The Tyee? Amazing.
Allah
7 years ago
But... but... but... Jinny Sims told me otherwise?
quick silver
7 years ago
Truly fascinating!… what appears to be hippies with right wing points of view. I have seen enough home schooled riff raff to know that if you were home schooled it meant you or your parents could not “creatively†adapt. Usually You or your kin are screwed up and not in the good sense.
Most of us have learned that there are no absolutes in thought or life but these “creative†and “intelligent†people have given in to their fear and expressed it as absolutes.
lani
7 years ago
I'm amazed that this article didn't mention Brent Cameron and the Wondertree Learning Centre in Vancouver, as well as their new book on Self-Design.
Burgess
7 years ago
The only trouble with our public education system are the provincial governments. Just where are the funding cuts FIRST made to school programmes? To the subjects that interest students the most: music programmes, sports, clubs, art, supplies for science, math, home ec., texts and so on. The mantra is "these courses and materials are frills." The only schools with a TRUE increase in funding from the public purse are the "private" ones. The band and sports programmes at some private ones are funded at levels the public schools will never achieve and can only dream of. Private schools levy fees that public schools cannot do or are criticised for collecting. Go figure. This piece is just another anti-education article pandering to the malcontents of public education.
runningdog
7 years ago
I would agree that our public school system leaves a lot to be desired - but i would think that successful "unschooling" would require exceptional parents (most of whom are products of our public education system). I doubt that most parents would be up this - a more than full time job(for lack of a better word).
Gatto et al imply that our public school system is a deliberate attempt to undermine the ability of citizens to think creatively for themselves; that it is a result of some conspiracy. Who are these conspirators?
murdock
7 years ago
For those saying that funding is the problem:
Consider a funding model that places the direction of the $$ in the parents hands (from a state source - taxes if you will). Those parents then direct the funds towards a schooling that supports or informs their children in a manner. Schools then can be organized in a number of different ways, the option for a parent to keep the funding for their own instruction at home using 'unschooling' or homeschooling as they please. The only proviso would be an assessment of the student or the instruction given.
Before the barbs start flying about elitism or preferential funding going to homeschoolers etc, I should like to point out that such funding would be more $$$ towards a state-approved teacher/school per student and less $$$ towards a non-state-approved teacher/school per student. Thus a 'school' may be state approved, with state approved teachers operating within it and recieve 100% of the funding. While a state-approved school with non-approved teachers gets say 75% funding. A non-approved school or under-review with approved teachers may only get 60%. Finally the homeschooler or unschooler whom is neither a state-approved school, nor teacher gets only 50% of the funding.
This is not a cut and dry situation, only a starting point for discussion. For the approval of the schools will involve classroom compositions etc. Ultimately these rules will involve oversight and other management costs that are borne by the increased amount of funding obtained by approved schools and teachers.
Others will argue that our system is not broken nor in trouble, I say that it may not be ... yet. The north american school system is based on an industrial revolution model, that will increasingly find itself overtaken by more modern, even self-directed models of instruction.
murdock
7 years ago
runningdog asks
the answer lies within the article itself:
The entire PLAN of the ORIGINAL Prussian schooling sytem was designed to keep the rural population from being able to form the kind of force that the French Revolution and Bonapartists did. Paranoia was rampant then, pressing in on society and the 'Age of Enlightenment' was long over, no-one wanted to see the general populace come out with skills capable of forming into a kind of force like the Napoleonic Armies to oppose the King or his court ever again. Fredrick William III did not get his way (he was deposed) but the members of the court and the burghers did. Their school system was entirely designed to turn out good, obedient workers. North America adopted them, no direct conspiracy; they just thought it a good way to 'keep up' with the pace of the industrial revolution. If workers were not somewhat literate then they were less effective, seen from across the Atlantic (as their parents came in with stories of how the system was working) the powers that were in 1820's North America saw the 'Prussian Method' as worthy of trial. Again, no conspiracy in North America, just a desire to have good outcomes for children here in the Americas.
The conspiracy comes in sometime after 1955, when some of the brightest lights had come from other than the general 'school-system' were dying out and it was becoming more difficult to replace them from strictly North Amercian sources. The conspiracy comes from a system that is too busy defending its own 'turf' to even consider change, which is a natural element of all living things. The conspiracy comes from teachers; who when confronted by the thoughts of John Taylor Gatto, a former New York State and New York City Teacher of the Year begin to scream in protest and stand only for the status quo.
Wallace
7 years ago
A very interesting article. Once again the Tyee demonstrates the committment to offering a breadth of opinion.
As one with a child in the public system, it gives me pause, but the concept of education as regimentation for industrial inputs is not entirely new. I would disagree, however, that the problem is related only to our industrial society. Public education in any form is truly a matter of protection and regeneration of elite social control. The answer is to recognize the system for what it is, and to make sure your child recognizes it also. Education should begin and end in the home, even where the public system is used.
spedteacher
7 years ago
Hmmm we definitely know different teachers then, murdock. The majority of teachers that I know are screaming for changes in the public school system. It is governments (Socred, NDP, and Liberal) who have created the havoc in our schools.
Why do governments appoint people in the Ministry who have had no direct experience in our schools or educational background? Goverment policies in education are not always based on the most current educational research or even common sense.
When I started teaching in the late 80s, the then provincial government (Socred?) was busy providing inservice to teachers on the Primary Program (whole language, integrated teaching, etc.). On paper this program looked wonderful. The money spent on inservice and the countless binders was phenomenal. Then there was an election. A new government came in. Bye bye Primary and Intermediate programs.
More recently, when the IRPs were introduced there was very little inservice training for teachers. Many of the programs (textbooks, etc.) being used in schools at the time were made obsolete by the IRPs. There was not enough funding to provide for the materials and training required to implement the IRPs. The IRPs are very general in many respects and encompass a wider range of curricular objectives. There should have been training provided on guided reading, use of manipulatives, etc. Textbooks, etc. should have been available for schools to purchase when the IRPs were issued, not years afterwards.
Factor in Provincial exams and the FSA tests and you begin to see our Canadian education system moving towards the "teach to the test" mentality of the US. We should be looking at how Finland delivers their education system .. not to the failing system of the US. The Liberals look to the US and teachers look to Finland. Who's to blame for the problems in our system?
Travis
7 years ago
re: "right wing hippies"
One of the biggest problems I have with the "left" is its (usually) abysmal analysis of education. It's all about protecting public sector jobs and maintaining or increasing funding to public schools. People have all sorts of problems with schools, but only right wingers are willing to look outside the box and support initiatives that would bring more choice to children and parents (actually, these conservative types I suspect don't give a shit about what their children want).
Of course, this usually means problematic (to say the least) solutions like school vouchers or private religious schools or what have you, but hey, at least they're willing to say, "we don't like this and we're going to work to try and get something we do like."
So in the case of "school choice" I find myself sitting uncomfortably next to, among others, reactionary lunatics who want their children to grow up in freaky religious schools.
This is annoying.
Travis
7 years ago
"The only trouble with our public education system are the provincial governments."
Hardly. There are very problems with our school system that go beyond just adding a few extra hours of art or soccer (not that I'm against that, but it's like putting makeup on one's bleeding, itchy eczema).
"This piece is just another anti-education article pandering to the malcontents of public education."
How exactly is it "anti-education"? And as far as being "just another" article, I suppose you could point out long list of articles that talk about unschooling in a positive way, mention people like John Gatto, and that actually give time to the idea of self-directed learning?
Did you even read the article?
Travis
7 years ago
"What if there were no publicly funded schools?"
What if there were no schools period? Seriously. What would actually happen? I don't think that the answer to that is at all obvious.
"A free public education is a great priviledge."
I would hope it would be considered a basic human right, rather than a great privilege. Of course, my idea of a quality public education doesn't look anything like what we have today. My thinking is much more in harmony with the "unschoolers" (BTW, really don't like any of those terms—seems pretty clear why none of them have really "stuck").
"Perhaps we should start charging for education and getting rid of all the troublemakers and students who are substandard mentally, and then you'd have classrooms where the brightest students could engage in the kind of scintillating discussion which we would all like. But is that what society wants? You either have a public education system that attempts to educate all types and comers or you don't. And having an open door policy means making some compromises."
I think your sarcasm is off target, here. It seems like you're assuming that the alternative to the system we have now is some kind of elitist private thing. And yes, that would be nightmarish—but you're missing something. Maybe doing some reading would help. The article lists some names and terms you could use to do some searching, if you're interested.
Step easy
7 years ago
As a person who has been through the 'pbulic system' (as i'm sure most of us here have been) i thought this was a very interesting and enlightening piece. I'm not completely familiar with 'home' schooling or Gatto's book, 'Dumbing us Down' but it seems to me that the current system of public education does just that. It dumbs us down. When thirty students are taught in the same monotonous, formulaic way regurgitating the same, useless inforamtion that our parents were taught, then later tested on it, how on earth is that supposed to be represented as even, fair, and efficient?
Heck, when i was grade ten all i was concerned about was learning how to play a Gmaj7 chord on my electric. My lab partner was mainly concerned with impressing both the teacher and the girl who sat in front of us who wore the tight fitting led zeppelin T-shirt. But i suppose we are the retarded social misfits someone mentioned earlier.
We must never forget that kids are kids and each learns at their own speed and in their own way. Does this mean that if student Johnny doesn't learn at the same rate, or in the same way as student Joesamin, that he is a failure, or that she indeed, is capable of leading us all?
I think not.
Sure, it would be impossible to give every single kid the individual attention they need
in order to achieve all that they are capable of in this lifetime, but let us not pretend that adhering to the lowest level of the status quo in our current system is anything close to resembling a quality education.
I'm with the home schoolers on this one. Without challenges like the ones they are presenting we'd never evolve as a species at all.
This is the twenty first century and many changes are underfoot. Indeed, these changes are necessary in order to move us efficiently into this next, most exciting millenium.
As Vandermeer pointed out, many successful women and men never finished 'public schooling' yet they have accomplished achievements that have had a tremendous effect on the lives and beliefs of many generations.
So, if sending a thirteen year old to College
might result in a positive advancement for mankind (at a time when we so desperately need it), and not to mention an accelerated career for the individual, then i'm all for it.
spoon
7 years ago
Most of us have learned that there are no absolutes in thought or life but these “creative†and “intelligent†people have given in to their fear and expressed it as absolutes.
Hmm, thank you, quick silver for your amazingly *absurdly* inaccurate generalization of all us "riff raff".
I myself being one those "right wing hippies", I cannot begin express to you my pure DISGUST at your ignorance.
Most of the homeschooled and unschooled people I have had the utmost pleasure of meeting, have been nothing but respectful, intelligent, thoughtful, creatively, socially, and artistically adept, kind, goal setting--not to mention achieving most of the goals they set--, literate, and all round beautiful people. And I will just as soon admit that not all home/unschoolers are like that, just like not all 'schooled children' are the snobbish, disrespectful, peer-influenced robots that some home/unschoolers make them out to be. (I also admit to both sides being at fault because of the 'My way is better than yours!' attitide.)
I often feel sorry for my schooled friends because they have missed so many opportunities and discoveries, big and small, that the school system has inhibited because it doesn't follow their curriculum. And I'm so grateful towards my parents kept me out of the hell school would have been for me.
Yup, we're a seriously screwed up bunch, us home/unschoolers...now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go get stoned and paint graffiti all over the RCMP office.
Max Power
7 years ago
For anyone who is interested in this subject, check out the Tyee article from last year about Windsor House (just enter Windsor House into Tyee search engine... article is an excerpt from Matt Hern's book Field Day) Windsor House is a publicly-funded, democratic, non-coercive parent participation school in North Vancouver. Many "unschooling/deschooling/homelearning" families have embraced WH over the years.
Despite our 35 years of existence, and despite a legion of successful alumni, Windsor House continually has to wrestle with survival, primarily due to the increasing pressures of standardization and the fact that many people in our society cannot comprehend that education can happen in a model other than "teacher talks, student sits at their desks and listens". It baffles me at times that people cling so strongly to the traditional model. It is a very unnatural way to learn... although it is very successful for some.
Think about everything you have learned since you have left high school/ university... how much of that information was learned through sitting at a desk/ boardroom table and listening to someone talk for hours on end? I would argue that we learn by DOING... and we learn more if we can CHOOSE what we want to learn? Yet... we assume that children are completely different creatures and learn best by force-feeding info that they have no interest in at the moment.
One of the barriers to progressive ideas in education at the moment is the "accountability" model gripping various governments. Our school had to alter many successful activities/practices (usually to negative results)in order to escape the threat of accountability audits from the government. In addition, we have to do ten times the amount of documenting as a typical school, because of similar fears of punitive measures. It is very draining, and saps much of the "magic" out of things... It's a tough ride for most "progressive" public schools these days.
I hope articles like this can get the word out to the population that we should do more thinking about the philosophy of education. Real thinking... not just "improving test scores", but actually to create schools that kids WANT to attend, because they are stimulated, happy, and empowered.
Platypus
7 years ago
So much to add...
As another of these deschooled "riff raff', I'm not sure where to begin. I don't know that people see how much money schools have. And how much of it is wasted. Teacher stand in front of 35 students, half of whom aren't interested in the subject. This makes class sizes larger and takes from the quality of the class. I'm not for a moment supporting the idea that some students are dumb. As Gatto would put it, "Dumbness is taugh", it's not a natural division of humanity. Returning to the point, Students' tim is wasting is classes they they are uninterested in. The solusion is simple enough. When given the choice of where to spend there time, school students will spend about 50% of there time away from teachers, learning through independant play and other activities. You must only put aside the idea that children need to be watched in order to apply this example.
The article above seems to have unfortunate lack of links. I'll do my best to make up for it.
The Alternative Education Resourse Organization (AERO) in mainly an American site, but offers much information with a global scope.
http://www.edrev.org
The Underground History of American Education and many other writings can be found Gatto's site at:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
I would love to jump in and say that Windsor House School in North Vancouver is a perfect example of what a puplic school can do to provide a non-coercive and self-directed environment. However, two years of noramlization have taken their tole and cost the school many of it's shining points. Luckily, an amazing example of community based schooling can be still be found at:
http://whs.at.org
Self Design can be found at:
http://www.selfdesign.org/
And lastly, The Purple Thistle, 'an alternative to school' can be found at:
http://www.purplethistle.org/
Founder Matt Hern is a Vancouver writer with many years experience in different forms of education and 'schooling'.
Platypus,
platypus at vlc.ca
murdock
7 years ago
Thank you so much Platypus for the intelligent input!
Louise
7 years ago
Murdock, if the government education funding went directly to parents, we might be looking at $10,000 per pupil, per year (I think you'd have to sell the real estate to realize that, it's closer to $7000). Can one parent (or the equivalent) afford to quit their job and homeschool their children on that amount of money?
To give an enriched experience there would be considerable costs involved as students would likely want field trips and recreation activities included in their day. Second item, do you have a parent (or the equivalent) who is able to assist with the breadth of subjects a student needs to study? Genetics, circuit electricity, senior math, physics, english, literature, geography and the list goes on. It is a tall order to expect one person to present all subjects creatively and effectively.
And when home schoolers band together and rent school space to overcome these problems, don't we in effect end up with a variation of a private school?
It's a numbers and dollars game. I'd like to see the discussion on bringing flexibility into existing schools. That way, no part of the population is excluded.
murdock
7 years ago
Ok Louise, I'll take your suggestion and present my own interpretation of it for a practical set of examples:
Let us assume that the $7000 per year is the number per student. (I think that the amount is fairly reasonable for grades 1-7, more becomes neccessary for the higher grades but that is another subject)
For those parents committed to the total un- or homeschooling this amount per child per year would be enough to cover almost a whole year of mortgage payments for a modest home. This alone may be enough to take one parent out of the work-a-day world, focus on developing their children and bettering themselves with home-based business development. This would be for a 'single-child' family. I am told that most families have more than one child, this means an annual amount of $14,000 representing more than enough to pay out an average home mortgage for a year and leave some for 'travelling cash' to get to those events. Now really smart parents would likely take 10% or about $700/year and invest it into appreciating assets (getting to about $100,000 after 12 years at 8-12%) which could represent enough money to attend university or other post-secondary institute.
Turning to the schooling options, picture the grade K-3 'teacher' that chooses to set-up their own 'school' with 12 students at $7000 equals $84,000, by setting this 'school' up under a small-business model the teacher could lease a classroom space, or better place a significant portion (25% is $21,000) of that money as a down payment on a small building (or build it into the basement of their own home). Even with the 'improvements' that such a location might need this teacher can see up to $3000/month coming in all 12 months of the year, then on top of it all be able to take deductions from the expenses of the school and allow that same teacher to keep nearly all of that $3000 as after tax money! A salaried teacher in today's system would need to get more than $57,000 to get that same benefit.
The larger school options still exist, but the model I would like to see us pursue will have parents in charge of who gets the funding (the public purse is still paying and there will be oversight), so the large institutional schools will start having a devil of a time keeping up with single highly-effective teachers. So the argument that the current model schools will become dumping grounds filled with sub-standard everyingthing is total hogwash, if the large schools give equal value then they will have the student population, if they do not (as many of the inner city schools do now) then those parents will go looking for another teacher/school or method for thier children. This will become a need under such a model and teachers will step forward to fill such a need.
I, personally, see a method where the current union-run model schools can survive and thrive even in such a system. The large school has an initial large population (thus larger funding under the $7000/student/year model we are discussing), they have the property of the school lands, improvements etc at a very reasonable rate (under some sort of lease arrangement from the crown), so they can afford to invest even more of the funds into income-generating investments. These funds, so invested are for use in school maintennance, program improvements, etc. THEY ARE NOT FOR USE AS TEACHER SALARIES. Breaking this arrangement will be good for those teachers for a short time, then apathy sets in and the smaller schools and single teacher programs overtake the school again, then left with no $$ for needed improvement, maintennance, materials or whatever the big school quality suffers again and the bigger salaries end up meaning nothing as parents pull students out of the failing school that has used the short term benefit. This then becomes the 'check and balance' of the system, it is natural and part of the competitive value that the current system does not have, teach nor understand.
murdock
7 years ago
continued:
The unions, like CUPE and associations that act like unions do not like this sort of concept, since it would place the teachers in direct competition with each other. The 'middle-managment' is totally cut out of the project, and with small school options spread out all over the need for large buildings and their janitorial, bus driving and groundskeeping staff (CUPE) are all gone. Thus they will fight against this sort of erosion of thier 'turf', their expressed concern for children or outcomes are all a smokescreen.
This 'discussion' has been going on since 1919 in North America and nothing has been done, will be done, nor do those running the 'system' want anything to change the status quo; because the system is benefitting them.
pubwvj
7 years ago
Louise: We homeschool. We also work at home. And we homestead. It is not a matter of quitting our jobs to have the very rewarding experience for both our kids and ourselves to homeschool them. I have always been self-employed and it works great. I am here for them. Yes, I would dearly love to have the $12,000 that our town wastes per year per pupil on public school where they turn out sub-par students. But I won't get it. Instead the town gets my taxes and I pay all of the cost to homeschool - it isn't much and it is a joy to do.
Yes, between my wife and I we offer the full breath of everything from music to art to genetics, electricity, computer design, programming, advanced mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology, english and three other languages, literature, geography and far beyond your limited list. Our kids also learn real world skills like accounting, business management, farming, cooking, animal care, how to manage their time and a whole lot more they don't teach in schools. They are advanced well beyond their age grade level.
We also do field trips, martial arts, hiking, biking, swimming, dancing, concerts, snowboarding and many other activities.
All this without wasting all that time waiting in line at school, without bullies and cliques, without all the other wasteful nasty stuff that goes on in school.
For us school is year round. We don't take off summers when public school children are forgetting so much that it takes the next year's teachers two to three months to reteach them what they lost. Life is learning. Learning is life.
In the end the question is: did the student learn well and would they like the same learning experience again or would they prefer to go to public school. Our kids excell, don't want to go to public school and have stated repeatedly that they intend to homeschool their children. That is the best testimony of all. The fact is homeschooled students excel. They do far better than their public schooled compatriots.
Now let's look at the flip side: I was public schooled because my parents were politically correct and believed that it was important to have the best and the brightest in public school to keep the averages up. It was a horrible, aweful experience that I NEVER want to repeat. I hated public school. I begged to homeschoool or go to a private school - anything but public school which was filled with tormenting bullies and teachers who taught to the lowest common denominator. I did not learn because of it. I learned inspite of it. Public school is a horrible industrial solution for turning out works for the big corporations. It should be abolished.
Homeschooling is more efficient, costs less and produces a better educated more well rounded person. Public school is the pits - you can keep it to yourself.
murdock
7 years ago
Thank you for the words of support pubwvj.
I hope we may cross-paths in the future as we (my wife and I) are starting to homeschool now and I have the same complaints about my public schooling.
quick silver
7 years ago
I’ll add another comment. From my many years of experience, 5 - 10% of students are self motivated learners. They benefit from self directed programs. They do not require regular schooling, with the exception that they need to learn how to socialize (school yard rules, you probably still remember their lessons). 65 – 70 % of the student are trainable to some extent. They are not self directed learners; they require training, routine, and expectations. These are your bank employees etc. At the upper end, this is your family doctor, the engineer. The last 15 – 20 % is not trainable. For a multitude of reasons.
The public school system aims at the majority. As it should. If it is functioning well it will also be able to accommodate the two fringe groups.
The public school system is a tool we (the people) provided to our population to integrate our young people into the stream of life, jobs, ordered social structure (and not by the “man†or other devious forces). It was never intended to replace or make easy, the constant personal struggle we all must fight to be reflective, creative, self directed learners. THIS BELONGS AT HOME PARENTS. It has never been taught in schools and never will be.
The expectation that the school system turn every student into a reflective, creative, self directed learner is usually an excuse thrown around by the riff raff that cannot adapt or right winged types (hippies included) whom instinctively fear public education as a threat to their vision of reality (again from experience).
Moat
7 years ago
pubwvj offered...
That is a pretty grandiose statement. Although your experience in the system was rotten, this is not the experience of the majority. As a society, we agree to live together and give up some rights for the collective good. Giving up some rights is not always a pleasant experience.
Society is filled with people we don’t like; we just need to learn to deal with them.
I am sure that many people made their “best friends†while attending putting school. As well, many people discovered interests and skills attending public school because of opportunities that cannot be duplicated anywhere else. There are opportunities to form intramural teams, join (and lead) the yearbook staff, choir, and many sports teams. Leadership opportunities cannot be duplicated in a home school setting.
I hope to send my child to public school. That is, if we do not run the public school system into the ground. I will then use family time to reinforce or correct what he learns at school. That is where I will employ some of the benefits of home schooling.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
So very true and well said. What the school issues are really about it the privatization of education and the elimination of all social programs. Those who are getting blinded by the promise of more money to home-school or to send their child to private school (who cares about the poor child - when did we lose our obligatio to those children?)will be shocked when private school fees skyrocket and vouchers are eliminated which is what will happen if there are no public schools and their inherent competition to the private school. And, oh. As a person with no children, I refuse to pay for other people's children's private school at the expense of public education. In other words, no public school, no money from me.
murdock
7 years ago
for redrivergirl:
since you
I respectfully request that you fully explore what that public education is really costing us, as a society. I am not talking about the money, that is a trifle compared to the 'dumbing down' that is going on.
Please read:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
The man was a recognized expert in the New York public school system and has since turned his back on the 'system' in favor of better outcomes for the 'individuals'.
You may change your mind about the money you are willing to flush down an unaccountable public system.
allan
7 years ago
It seems to me that advocates of home schooling really don't give a damn about public education.
And while I salute their determination to ensure their children get a step up on the neighbour's kid (if you believe that actually happens), the purpose of public education (at least to me), is to lift all the unlearned into the light, not just those whose parents have the finances and educational background to educate their offspring themselves.
I would think if parents have all that time and money they might do much better for their children (and others) by using their resources to improve public education.
Afterall, the poorly educated get to vote as well.
marta
7 years ago
Thanks Allan for telling it like it is.
And Murdock - the New York public Schools are not the same as the B.C. public schools. You've obviously been influenced by Gatto. However, I have been teaching for years in the post-secondary system, and one of the things that is patently untrue is that there is one "right way" to educate all people. Beware following one guru's take on education.
Elliot
7 years ago
any alternative that gets the bctf/ndp out of the social engineering business must be worth looking at. these clowns will continue to make fools of themselves until they force the gov't to decertify them.
Linden
7 years ago
I have to say I've been amused by some of the responses to this article. Where did everyone get the idea that homeschoolers are all wealthy people? I'm sure there are some around, and I know a few that are at least pretty well off, but most of the homeschoolers I know (and I use the word homeschoolers to embrace all types of homelearners) gave up a second income to stay at home with their kids. We don't have a 2nd vehicle, we don't eat at expensive restaurants and don't take a lot of vacations. We're willing to do without all the "extras" to give our kids a good start in life.
Our taxes still go to public schools. And there is no way public schooling will ever come to an end, at least not because of homeschooling. It's simply another option that suits some people and not others. It's like private or charter schools, Montessori or Waldorf - just another alternative for those who want it. You might be surprised that many people make their choices not because of the education offered, but a more personal decision. You wouldn't believe how many people over the years have said to me "I don't know how you do it. I couldn't stand having my kids home all day."
Allan -
I assume by this comment you're a member of a PAC, or you at least volunteer at your kid's school? Good for you. The system does need help.
And Marta, you're right. There is no ONE way to educate all people. And that goes for public schools too.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Murdock, to compare our public school system with NY's, or any in the US except for those in Beverly Hills etc, is ridiculous.
Canada can't be compared to the US for many reasons.
This is about privatization. Poor and middle class children be damned.
Moat
7 years ago
Murdock wrote
Please read:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
The "dumbing down" is part of the quest for accountability. Let's face it, standardized testing turns education into "trivial pursuit". Demonstrate these skills, facts, etc. at this given time.
But really, all your comments seem to be centered around cost. Not improving education for students.
If you really think the public education is so damaging, you have the option to homeschool your child. But I guess you would lose out on the babysitting service, or would it bother you too much to pay for something that you are not using?
Yes, I agree that the education system is costing us, but that is because it is run by bureaucrats, not educational professionals.
When my child is of school age, I will be listening to the professionals working with my child. These people are the teachers. Not some policy maker who changes cabinet portfolios on a whim.
If I do not like the quality of education that my child is receiving, you bet I will be pulling my child from that teacher's classroom. This is my right, and I will complain if the principal does not allow this at his or her school. However, if I keep changing my child's teacher, it will become apparent that I am most likely the one with issues.
When we don't like our mechanic, we change mechanics. If we do not trust our doctor, we go somewhere else. You can do the same in education.
The "dumbing down" comes from an ill-informed public not really examining what they are asking for.
Want proof?
Look at all the Baby Einstein crap flying off the shelves....
Mind you, I will probably be using some of that edu-garbage when I need a minute or two of babysitting.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Parents who are buying that bridge in brooklyn and think they are going to get more money need to realize that it will only be for a short while until the public schools are gone. Then with no competition and a neo-liberal ideology, do you really think you'll get a penny for homeschooling? Or, to send your child to private school? Well, you won't.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
In some parts of Africa and other places that have their aid tied up with 'free-market' rules have stopped sending their girls to school because they can't afford to educate all their children. This is enlightened? I detest this ideology. It's as wicked as anything the world has to offer.
Louise
7 years ago
Wow - the BCTF is every public school teacher in this province. And you think they're all NDP and evil to boot?! It's a simplistic response.
'The evil union workers are the root of all problems in BC.' Does that ever work?
Murdock is championing upapproved and approved teachers. This would make anyone in BC a teacher, if they choose to be one. Perhaps they'd make a little less money.
I teach science at the secondary level and have a Bachelors degree, a Masters degree and an Education degree. I work hard at keeping up with the latest developments in my subject area.
What students most appreciate about my teaching is the way I am able to simplify the material and bring relevance to it.
This is one subject area and a full time occupation. I subscribe to the appropriate journals and am challenged to keep up.
I have a depth of knowledge in my subject area that is not possible for a wanna be untrained teacher to duplicate.
I could contribute to a co-op type of school that responsible home schoolers envision but here's the thing:
Every year I teach students who DON'T have the support at home that's necessary for students to realize their full potential. They don't have the stable environment (enough sleep, nutritious meals, warm clothing, etc) they need. But in my class I can give encouragement and let them know that they're talented and if they can get through a senior science course they can do anything they wish, if they work at it, a day at a time. All my colleagues do the same for their students, working in their subject areas.
I want a system where the kids on the edge are included.
I don't understand why the home schoolers begrudge the public system. It's inclusive, the way a private system isn't. The teachers are well trained and still not perfect, there's a small percentage of discipline cases each year, even after the necessary training and screening. What will that percentage be when anyone can be a teacher, credentials or not? Let the buyer
beware.
Home schoolers should be an inspiration and a trial ground for new ideas. Challenge and inspire by example. Give up the "we're good and you're bad" mantra. It discredits the concept.
There's nothing more tiresome than a studnet who has never been to public school parroting his parent and calling it a prison. That's not education, it's indoctrination.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Canadians are being 'dumbed down' by the colonization we are enduring. If you don't want your child 'dumbed down', turn off the tv and monitor their video games. Talk to them about the empty slogans that are being used to replace intelligent discourse. Take them to Europe and South America etc and show them we are not the center of the universe, no matter what we think. Get to know the parents of children of other cultures and colours in your childs school - have a yearly party - get involved and get your children involved in their community.
Travis
7 years ago
I think that many here are arguing against a position that nobody is taking. It's unfortunate that "school choice" has been a phrase associated with the right, but don't let that blind you—not everyone arguing in favour of alternative education is a right winger, and we're not all unaware of the problem of privatization.
There are two questions here which shouldn't be confused: the question of public vs. private and the question of the best ways for children to learn and develop.
Personally, I'm in favour of a broader, more inclusive concept of public education. I'm in favour of radical change to the public education system.
Most of us have been through the public school system and I suppose it's only natural to be defensive of it. Is it so hard to accept, though, that there may be better ways than what we've been doing? (And we've only been doing public education the way it is now for a short time, relatively speaking. Are we sure we've got it right? Is improving school really only a question of smaller class sizes or what have you?) I think that there are problems with our schooling model that are fundamental and go beyond the usual list of problems like underfunding and overcrowding.
Without going into detail I quite agree with the idea that people succeed in life in spite of their school experience, not because of it (speaking of K-12 here). Even if you disagree, though, please don't lump me in with the religious right or the Fraser Institute just because I see problems with our school system.
I'm sorry I can't go into more detail about why I believe what I believe, but it wouldn't be worth the effort. If you care about what critics of the school system have to say you'll go and look for yourself. I have no fancy rhetoric to inspire you.
My experience teaches me that there is life beyond the education model that we follow today, and I wish that there was more will from everyone to explore that more or less uncharted territory.
-Travis
Zee
7 years ago
Linden,
Thank you for saying what you did.
I would like to say that we pulled our 3 children out of school over a year ago to homeschool. We did both public then private (with a heavy subsidy from the school). Neither worked for me or my children. I was part of the school council at both schools and spent any time I wasnt at work at the schools, doing this and that and helping in the classrooms/library.
We, my husband and children and I are all very happy with the change we have made. I quit my job to stay home with my kids and learn with them.
I would love it if homeschooling parents got the $7000/child/year as that would amount to $21000 for our family which is half of our combined annual income when we both worked. That money would mean I wouldnt have to worry about being able to pay for the kids music lessons, participating in the co-ops we enjoy, swimming lessons, even Scouts and Guides and field trips. These are some of the things that the kids participate in and there are many others we just cant afford to do. Then there is the curriculum and books that I would love to be able to get.
But as it is we do it on one small income. We rent and share a car. The activities the kids are in all pare of their schooling and are things they love and enjoy. There is nothing better than Young Naturalists to learn about our natural environment from the people who work with it daily. Guides and Scouts give them a chance to explore and learn about so many things. But all this costs money and parental involvement.
I will not say that this lifestyle, because thats what it is, is for everyone. You have to want to learn with your children and spend vast amounts of time with them to do it, and live on a very limited income. I know of plenty of single parents who homeschool their children. So it doesnt even have to do with having 2 parents. As for homeschooling parents being wealthy? Maybe thats how it was way back when in England and such. But today the majority of the familys I know are struggling to get by, some are bairly making it (we fall in there), a few have their own business, and a few dont have to worry too much.
I will say it has nothing to do about being rich it has to do with an individual family and their particular needs. It also has nothing to do with being well educated parents. I know families where the parents didnt finish high school, have some college (again we fall in here), have degrees, and even some are (GASP) practicing public school teachers. Some families homeschool because it is the only way the children will have their educational needs met in a way that makes for happy well adjusted children, and others simply because they believe it is the best for their children. But in the end, regardless of the reasons for it, the decision is made in the best interest of the children. It does tend to make for a happier closer family.
murdock
7 years ago
Marta writes:
Clearly you have not read anything Gatto has to say, as he advocates adjusting everything to the learner, even the system.
murdock
7 years ago
Moat writes:
When your mechanic is a screw-up you can sue him, for at least your money back, if not to repair the damage caused.
If you do not trust your doctor, good luck finding a new one right now. In the end doctors have malpractice insurance to protect them (an I suppose you) from errors in proceedure or judgement.
In neither case are you forced to hand over your car to any mechanic or body to any doctor and FORCED to pay for any substandard service.
Yet you are saying that we must hand over our children to other government agents (teachers) with NO CONTROL over what is being done to, fed to, or pushed into the minds of any families most precious resource.
murdock
7 years ago
redrivergirl writes
Absolutely! and doing all of these things is much, much easier in a home-school (or unschool) environment.
I am not aware of any, I repeat ANY public school that can afford to do any of the 'extras' that you are advocating parents do.
Community involvement is the simplest and cheapest way to get children aware of the overall community and world that they live in. The concrete walls of the school and the barb-wire topped fences keep the public school kids out of that opportunity.
murdock
7 years ago
For Linden and Zee:
Keep at it and someday we may hope to share the light of wisdom in the value of learning over schooling and for a search for knowledge over an eductional 'system'
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Travis, just don't take your child out of Waldorf until they graduate, or they won't know anything. :-) In any event, the public school system isn't equipped to be everything to everyone and never was designed to do so.
A childless person, I support public education. I do this for humanitarian reasons and also for the benefit it brings society. I do not support my taxes going to home-school, unless there is a compelling reason (ie extreme behavioural etc) that cause the child too much stress to be in the classroom.
And, isn't the 7,000 the money that pays for everything including heating, lights etc, plus a master degreed teacher in many cases?
There have always been trends in education. I would never argue there is one way to learn and a teacher wouldn't either. Public education is however the only expedient way to promote an egalitarian society and that is one reason some hate it so. Consider our multi-cultural society without it. This should give one pause.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
And, I am adamently against my taxes going to private school.
Burgess
7 years ago
It is too bad that articles like this are a backhanded way of slagging the public school system. It is too bad that the public school system never had Bashu-Naimi enrolled - it was a definite loss to any classmates that would have interacted with him. One wonders what the class make up was that caused the family to home school? Nice to go to college though as a 13 year old. Just what drives parents to home school? It is interesting that a group of home schoolers attempted to open their own school in Surrey but failed because each was too independant to work with the others. I have only ever met one student who was truly successfully home schooled in a positive manner and she was in constant contact with her supporting highschool. All the talk about money still comes back to my first comment - it is government undefunding that is at the root of the problems in public education. With proper funding Bashu would more than likely had the opportunity to blossom and be a roll model for classmates. But that was a lost opportunity.
Travis
7 years ago
"With proper funding Bashu would more than likely had the opportunity to blossom and be a roll model for classmates."
Why do you think that? What specifically would be different in a given classroom assuming proper funding?
"I have only ever met one student who was truly successfully home schooled in a positive manner..."
Whatever.
-Travis
Travis
7 years ago
"Travis, just don't take your child out of Waldorf until they graduate, or they won't know anything. :-)"
I don't follow...
-Travis
P.S. Not trying to be difficult—genuinely puzzled.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I was being half sardonic/half joking. After years of friends who had their children in various private schools, I found that the children who went to Waldorf until they graduated they did well. Unfortunately those who were sent to other schools from Waldorf before graduation and in about grades 5 to 7 found themselves woefully behind in the ways kids are measured.
I agree that some public schools aren't able to offer children who are very talented in various ways, but unable to 'play the game'of being one child among many, the best education for them. I also think schools could really have a non bullying policy that really meant something. I think all classes should have a five min check in and teachers really model empathy and communication. Skills, I realize, not everyone has. So, I am not saying the public school experience is best for everyone. I am saying, it isn't broken. It is under a systematic attack by those who would privatize. And, if successful, they be paying anyone to home-school, believe me. They'll be charging for the materials and adding extra fee oriented hoops.
The public schools are important to give all children the opportunity to achieve if they are able to do so. The public school system really does promote an egalitarian and tolerant society, even if there is unrest in some schools. There is a lot a school can do, especially in the elemenatry years to mitigate the problems some of our schools appear to be developing as we experience our new cultural colonization.
There is nothing better for a child and their school than a passionate and qualified teacher with enough resources and enough support to be inovative.
I know school was and is very difficult for some children who may be sensitive and/or may need better socialization skills. I know school can be a very painful experience for some children. But, we don't want to through out the baby with the bath water.
I don't think some religious etal sects should receive taxes to home-school their children in order to keep them from being influenced by society. I think that is a perversion of our tax system.
I support public schools with my taxes. One reason is they benefit society.
Travis
7 years ago
"I do not support my taxes going to home-school, unless there is a compelling reason (ie extreme behavioural etc) that cause the child too much stress to be in the classroom."
Why not?
"Public education is however the only expedient way to promote an egalitarian society and that is one reason some hate it so. Consider our multi-cultural society without it. This should give one pause."
Would you clarify what exactly you mean when you say public education? Do you just mean free school for everybody? Do you mean the specific curriculum? Do you mean the experience of being in a school building and going to classes?
Again, not trying to be difficult, I just think it would be beneficial to know what parts of the public education experience you believe are essential. Perhaps we could keep those parts and still find a way to either change public schooling or support alternatives that would satisfy our need to help create an egalitarian society.
-Travis
Zee
7 years ago
I can give you simplistic answers for this.
For some it is religious, they want their kids to learn through what ever religion they believe in with the morals, beliefs etc.
For some it is simply a belief that being the parents of their children it is their responsibility to educate their children themselves not to hand that task over to a stranger.
For some it is because their child(ren) have needs that are not being met in a traditional school (public or private). Wether the needs are learning style, different abilities, emotional etc. This can and does lead to very stressed children and parents. This is where we were. It is hard to watch your happy vibrant child change into someone who clings to you and cries at the drop of a hat. We watched my youngest start changing between Sept and Nov, and it only went down hill from there. If we had been in the place to pull her then we would have, so we waited until year end. Now we have a happy child with high self esteme and self confidence that was lost at school. She had a good teacher (my son had her the year before) but she didnt work with the youngest one. It happens. Now my youngest isnt a child with behavioural problems, she had undiagnosed (now recognized) gross and motor skill difficulties. These difficulties do make her a slower worker than her classmates/siblings. At home she is able to work at her own pace (written, verbally) without the schedule stress of a school. The other 2 are homeschooling because they chose to when given the option.
I hope that helped. Now the reasons are different for each family but from talking to people these are the core reasons. For many it is a combination of these reasons. One thing is for sure we all believe it is the best thing for our children.
Louise
7 years ago
Great reading, thank you all for the discourse! The tyee forum is delightful when the politicos stand down and the article is the subject.
Everyone cares - I love that.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
To be clear...
Public education is paid for by all our taxes, whether childless, or not, because it is for the public good.
Years ago the pioneers decided to pool their resources and with those taxes pay for the education of their children, and other services which enhanced the public good.
If you want to home-school to maintain control over what your children are taught because it may be contrary to your religion, or belief system, then do not expect money for the public good to be provided for that task. This also holds for people who feel 'it's their responsibility, not to 'hand this task over to a stranger', They then really need to take that responsibity in all ways.
It is all our responsibility to ensure all children are able to receive a good education. Including and maybe especially the child who has to walk past broken beer bottles and their passed out parent to get there.
If a child really and truly can not get their needs met in public school (I'm not talking about the parent's needs here, nor their sole decision about whether their child's needs are being met) then, I do support my tax dollars going to home-school that child and with all the extra supports.
People who home-school and also those who send their children to private school, benefit from an educated population who are educated in the public school system. It is for this that their portion of the school taxe is levied, as it is for ours, a childless couple.
Zee
7 years ago
These arent the only reasons school is difficlut for children. My kids dont fall under either of these reasons. But should school be difficult for anyone? School for my children was difficult because 1)the youngest wasnt getting her needs met by a teacher who refused to see she had them, 2)my oldest was more advanced in many subjects but was stuck at her "grade level" doing redundant work, 3)my middle child will just "float" along unless someone gives him the push he needs to get moving. All the kids had many friends and were/are very social even out of school, but school was difficult for other reasons.
Again should it be? NO NO NO!! I had a difficult time in school. Bullies suck, having your own mind (not following the crowd)mades it difficult. Not it isnt just hard in highschool but in elementary as well.
As for passionate and qualified teachers, they are all qualified (have teaching certificate) but thats where it ends. Many dont have the passionate part, or did early on and have lost it.
Zee
7 years ago
Even those of us who homeschool pay for public education through our taxes.
I guess the kicker here is your tax dollars are NOT going to homeschoolers. The previous comments about it was wouldnt it be nice for homeschoolers to get the same money as the public schools.
So dont stress about it. It is a beautiful dream that would make homeschooling much easier for many families but that is about as likely as getting a public education system that fully meets the needs of every child.
There is nothing like having your childs principal support you homeschooling.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
innovative... and many other typos. (plus, I meant to say that if schools are privatized, there won't be any money for home-school, sooner than later.
I just read your later post, Travis. Primarily, public schools have a variety of children from all ethinic and socio-economic backgrounds. This is less true than it was, but still remains so. School is the place where first generation Canadian children interact with children born in Canada. This helps families and communities learn about each other in a type of emersion program that would not be replicated by 'cultural excursions' by motivated parents. We do have a culture in Canada that is uniquely ours, in spite of our persistant denial of it. The school system is one way our culture evolves, is maintained, evolves and shifts, as newer (to us) cultures compliment our mosaic. It also provides a model about how we in Canada think about others. One obvious example of this is the equality of women. This is one reason some are very against a public school system.
Travis, I'm sure there are many good ideas you can offer. However, this is a very difficult time in Canadian history. Even the most basic social program, public education, is under attack. I don't think this is the time to re-discover the wheel.
During the late sixties and early seventies the public school system went through a huge innovative and creative stage. I agree with you that change can be a great thing. Education has trends. The public school system adapts to 'real' trends. I am very careful at this time, that we don't jump at change, only to discover that we've been duped. We need to preserve our school system, first and fore most.
Burgess
7 years ago
Obviously Travis has never really bothered to spend any time in our schools. Get a criminal check T. and spend some time in inner city schools, west side schools, southeast side schools and scope out the diversity of students teachers deal with. You just might be elightened.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Zee. I am sorry you were bullied. I really am. I know how tramatic that is and I think there is no excuse for schools not being extremely pro-active and do what it takes to protect children.
I know kids who are 'different' and that may mean more creative and talented and or kids who have it very hard at home and are being abused, can be singled out for more suffering at school.
I don't abide with any tacit approval of this.
Many blessings to you.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I wanted to add, school shouldn't be 'difficult' for anyone. Sometimes though what appears difficult is a necessary growing experience and chance at further development. Sometimes a child has to learn how to cope when things that are not ideal. Because grown-up life is full of that. This is tricky though and I'm not talking about any abuse, meaness or harrassment.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
my keyboard is sticking - traumatic, ethnic etc.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I also wanted to say, Zee, I recognize the inequity in that if money was not an issue in one's financial life that one has the freedom to send their child where ever the best fit may be and that this is indeed unfair to many people.
Travis
7 years ago
"But, we don't want to through out the baby with the bath water."
Clearly you think well enough of our school system to say that, but I sometimes wonder...
"So, I am not saying the public school experience is best for everyone. I am saying, it isn't broken."
Well, I disagree with that. My reasons are not original—many "unschoolers" have stated the complaints better than I could, so feel free to look 'em up—but they do emerge from my own and many friends' experiences both in school and out. I do feel that the school system is broken. Or, rather, it never worked to begin with.
"It is under a systematic attack by those who would privatize. And, if successful, they be paying anyone to home-school, believe me. They'll be charging for the materials and adding extra fee oriented hoops."
Well, no argument here. As I wrote earlier, it's difficult to be a leftist and support alternatives to school, since the right has a near monopoly on the "school choice" issue. It's natural for people to be concerned about their taxes being given to: a) unnacountable individuals (i.e. parents) or b) expensive private schools, or c) exclusive religious institutions.
And how much worse if on top of all that somebody says right from the start that they're not even interested in doing the curriculum, eliminating the standard method for making sure that an individual or organization is at least sort of accountable for the money being spent?
In a previous Tyee article, Matt Hern said, "Politically speaking, I'd like to see a whole range of stuff available, and available not only to elite families. Pedagogically or philosophically speaking, I'm going to argue for what I believe in. And I agree that it's only for a small slice of the world but I'm going to argue for it hard, because I think discourse about educational methods has been incredibly restricted."
(Note, again, the distinction between the political issue and the educational issue. Oh, and for the context: the article.)
The "whole range of stuff" comment seems pretty cavalier, to me, but I don't know if there's a better position to take.
-Travis
Zee
7 years ago
Thank you Redrivergirl,
But ultimately that was not the reason we we chose to homeschool. It is something we had talked about before and during my childrens school experience (which was between 2-4 yrs depending on child). It was the difficulties my youngest was having in grade 1 that made up our minds. There comes a time when you have to say enough is enough and take action.
Our homeschool group is culturally diverse, as are the groups/activities our children participate in. They are exposed to different cultures and people with different abilities. I know this is true for most homeschool families. It could be said homeschool children are more exposed to these differences as they are out in public with their parents more, interacting with people on a daily basis in a way that "school" children dont.
As for "re-discover[ing] the wheel" parents have been "teaching" their children at home since the beginning of time. Parents are a childs First teacher. It is the oldest way for children to recieve their education. "Schools" are new by comparison.
Travis
7 years ago
"Obviously Travis has never really bothered to spend any time in our schools."
Err, yes, that sure is "obvious."
?
(And this from the guy who's only ever met "one student who was truly successfully home schooled in a positive manner" (whatever that means)—clearly the voice of experience.)
"Get a criminal check T. and spend some time in inner city schools, west side schools, southeast side schools and scope out the diversity of students teachers deal with. You just might be elightened."
Huh?
Seriously, what are you talking about?
-Travis
P.S. You never answered my earlier question to you. Are you going to?
redrivergirl
7 years ago
(Note, again, the distinction between the political issue and the educational issue. Oh, and for the context: the article.)
Well, Travis as life would have it, I did go back and read the article. I was so amazed by the inaccuracies by Gatto, starting with the reason Canadian schools were started, that I looked him up. Sure enough... I've italizied the blatent neo-con BS and bolded the lies.
The Odysseus Group stands apart from party politics. We aim to revive public discussion of education and give decision making back to the people. We hope to revitalize grassroots democracy by presenting a lively menu of successful working alternatives to government factory schools—some public, some private, some parochial, and some personal. We intend to work toward legislative reforms that return school tax money to citizens' hands, where it can be spent to restore meaning to school choice by enlarging the range of available alternatives.We do not ask for an end to government schools, only that they be forced to compete. Free market choice will improve government schools, too.
From his own web site which I'll go back and post later
I assume, the writer of this article, still a student, is unaware of these implications. I don't know what The Tyee's excuse is.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Well, Travis as life would have it, I did go back and read the article. I was so amazed by the inaccuracies by Gatto, starting with the reason Canadian schools were started, that I looked him up. Sure enough... I've italizied the blatent neo-con BS and bolded the lies.
From his own web site which I'll go back and post later
I assume, the writer of this article, still a student, is unaware of these implications. I don't know what The Tyee's excuse is.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/odysseus.htm
blatant...
What a scam, folks.
Travis
7 years ago
"I did go back and read the article. I was so amazed by the inaccuracies by Gatto"
There's no mention of John Taylor Gatto in the article I linked to...
-Travis
Moat
7 years ago
Murdock wrote,
I never said that. Remember, you do have the choice to send your child to private school. You also have the choice to homeschool your child. If you think you can do a good job homeschool your child, then do it! Your child will benefeit from the increased parental contact. Any child will.
But public schooling is a goal of society. We all pay for in the same way that we pay for roads. Think about it, someone who lives in Prince Rupert has to subsidize Greater Vancouver's transit system. That is part of being in a society. However, I do believe that parents who home school should receive some tax benefiets.
Individualized education does beat mass education hands down. But trashing the public system does not lead to an individualized or a better education system.
Travis
7 years ago
"School is the place where first generation Canadian children interact with children born in Canada."
So the critical part for you is children interacting with children from different backgrounds? Is that correct?
If so, Zee's comment is, I think, right on the money. Some easy web research into how homeschoolers (or unschoolers, or whatever) deal with the issue of social interaction might be helpful...
But I'm not sure I've addressed your point. Would you state more specifically what your fear is around this issue? I mean, would you say specifically what you object to and what you think would happen if that happened?
"However, this is a very difficult time in Canadian history. Even the most basic social program, public education, is under attack. I don't think this is the time to re-discover the wheel."
I understand this fear and I think that opposing the ongoing dismantling of our public services is important. I'm not convinced, though, that it's an either/or proposition, and if I were school aged again I wouldn't feel like waiting around for the "right" time—for one thing, that time may never come.
"Sometimes though what appears difficult is a necessary growing experience and chance at further development. Sometimes a child has to learn how to cope when things that are not ideal."
Well, in the abstract that's hard to argue. I think you'd agree, though, that the details are important. If a child was being bullied, for example, I doubt we'd say, "suck it up and learn how to cope when things are not ideal!"
I'd be wary of putting a child through something difficult just because I thought it was good for them. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the case of schooling I see so much of the difficulty as being unnecessary.
-Travis
redrivergirl
7 years ago
You're right. I haven't yet read your link. I was mixed up.
Listen, I don't disagree with much of what you say. However, the public school system can not be everything and it is under too much attack right now.
Learning is a life-long love affair. It's up to the individual. Parents can go a long way in teaching their children to love learning. Ideally, that is what a good teacher does.
night.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I hope young Bashu Naimi-Roy learns in his subsequent philosophy classes that Plato never meant his noble lie elitist theory to be anything other than argument and that Nietzsche died insane.
Travis
7 years ago
Re: Gatto
The free market rhetoric is disappointing, to be sure (I also question the accuracy of his history). On the subject of school itself I've found much to like in his writing, although I have to ignore some of the pro-capitalist "entrepreneurial spirit" type stuff. It's the political/pedagogical division again, and another example of the uncomfortable (and frustrating) relation between right wing ideology and "school choice."
Gatto is not the be all and end all of the critique of our education system, thank god, but he's made some valuable contributions and I wouldn't dismiss him offhand because I don't like his politics. I think some of his analysis of schooling is really quite accurate and perceptive.
-Travis
Moat
7 years ago
Redrivergirl wrote:
I think that you are a little hard on Mr. Gatto. But then again, maybe not. Gatto's approach would most likely benefit teachers. Most teachers are well "trained" and educated. Removing government controls would free the best to negotiate what they are truly worth.
This does scare me, because I do not know if I would be able to afford the best education for my child.
Imagine this, a traditional English teacher, teaming up with a math whiz financial planner who likes working with young people, opening up a mini-high school.
The English (with the Education degree) teacher teaches English, Social Studies, and a bit of Science. The financial planner (with the Commerce degree and years of experience) teaches Math, Law, Marketing, and a bit of Science. In fact, maybe they have a mutual engineer friend who can teach Science for a few months.
This would be an awesome combination. But how much would it cost? Would home-schoolers be able to complete. Would the "slugs" in heavily subsidized "welfare" schools be able to compete?
Of course the government has to get out of the way first. The financial planner is not a "trained" teacher. However, the English teacher with the Education degree can teach the financial planner classroom management skills.
Sounds OK? But then, people would realize how much "the best" education costs in the "free market".
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Travis, I just read your link.
I'll quote Chris's comment,
Believe me, I don't disagree with much of what Hern says, (and you'll find many special ed teachers equally as talented and in the same way - I've met them in various programs years ago and in 'free-schools' etc) I do not think, no, I know, that 5,000 plus that formally went to the public school will not go to the parent for long. No, it will go to the multi-national education delivery corporation, who when the system is really and truly broken, the dept of ed dismantled and the union busted, will swoop down and 'free-market' you all out of the game!
You know, sometimes I grow weary with the, oh so very privileged, North Americans and Europeans who declare, 'I'm a Libertarian or I'm an Anarchist, when in fact the very communal work - and believe me work it was and for generations - and the foresight and the sense of obligation to others and the moral fortitude it took to sacrifice and conserve for generations to follow is the energy and capital what enables them the grace embrace real movements as their own fancy cloak. Mr Hern's whole gig can be grateful to our very sytem, right down to any commercial rent he may pay and the street he walks on to get to his school. Yes, he's right, public education is being attacked. We differ on who will ultimately benefit and perhaps who is really behind the attacking.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I don't know Moat. But, the rhetoric is all the same with these guys, even when they try to change their rhetoric, their egos won't let them stop being too clever by half. So, they are always self-evident.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
And, moat that's how public ed started, people realized if they pooled their resources it was cheaper and they got more value for their dollar. I see people trying to reinvent the wheel as they are getting fleeced. I'll see if I can find this link for you about the manitoba school system. It's been a while.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Travis, it is not just interacting with children of other backgrounds, but sharing their common experience. And, again, the dismantling of a strong public education system isn't just about a few children within a privileged/alternative island community. It has long reaching and long lasting unintended consequences.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/2005/10/education-reformation-of-nclb-and.html
An excellent article in a really informative blog.
Zee
7 years ago
I am wondering who and where the "few children within a privileged/alternative island community." are?
bc4me
7 years ago
John Gatto is a neo-con?? What blather! Have you actually read any of his books? Like 'Dumbing us Down', or 'The Underground History of American Education or 'The Exhausted School'? Or any of his numerous essays, like the one that was a Harper's cover story a year ago, or the ones that regularly appear in The Sun? Ever heard him on CBC? I seriously doubt you have. I have, and I know John well, having spent a bunch of time with him, and helped to bring him to Vancouver for speaking engagements. He, like many people I know (living and dead), object to the authoritarian and pseudo-democratic practice of modern schooling, as it first emerged in the US under the tutelage of Horace Mann, and transplanted to Canada under the guidance of Methodist megalomaniac Egerton Ryerson (who served as Education overlord in this country for 50 years!). 'Public Education' has subsequently become a euphemism for a vested interest battleground between teaching unions and the bureaurocrats, with school boards, parent groups and its main 'clients' - children and young adults - consigned to the margins of power and decision-making. Far, far from being neo-cons, John Gatto, like myself, is a disgruntled, former 'public school' educator who first tried to improve the system from within and then chose to resign and advocate for more learning options from beyond the coercive pretenses of schooling. During the four years that I co-stewarded 'Virtual High' in Vancouver (an award-winning program for teens in which we did not impose the curriculum but encouraged them to chart their own learning courses), the only people who refused to step foot in our very open door for a tour and discussion were anyone associated with the BCTF and the Vancouver School Board. Oh, yes, add demagogue Charles Ungerleider (UBC Associate Dean of Ed. and former Ed. Deputy Minister under Clarke) to that list; the Unger-saur actually refused several personal invitations to visit but that didn't stop him from slandering Virtual High and Wondertree whenever he got the chance. Stop living in technocolor - 'public' schooling isn't what it purports to be, and the sooner we as a society recognize this and move to create a much wider range of opportunities in which learning can flourish (and that is supposed to the object of exercise, ne c'est pas?) then the sooner we'll reap the benefits and stop deluding ourselves that modern schooling is the royal road to a kinder, wiser and more democratic citizenry. - cheers, Michael Maser, Director, SelfDesign Learning Community
Louise
7 years ago
The Curriculum in BC schools is legislated and scrutinized by Ministry of Education public servants and usually developed by teachers with much consultation. You should know exactly what your children are learning in school, it's all readily available on the Ministry of Education website. New curriculum packages are available for comment, as well.
"An english teacher and a social studies teacher teaching science and maybe an engineer teaching a little science as well." Good grief! Thankfully BC schools, at the present time, do not allow teachers without science degrees from accredited universities to teach senior science courses. What you're suggesting is essentially throwing out an entire subject area. Visit your local high school and/or check out the biology, chemistry, physics and geology 12 programs, available on line. They're extremely rich.
Moat, for your scheme to work, you will have to convince the Universities to change their standards. A student educated in this way would NOT be able to cope with first year university!
Take a look at Math 10, 11 and 12. Students need much more than a "whiff" of these subject areas.
I've seen two types of home schoolers thus far, those who are opting out and home school using nintendo and TV to amuse their children and say, "oh we're not doing math right now, it's too hard. . ." (very sad) and those that are moving towards something. The latter are often impressive and their children may move in and out of public schools over the years. We wanted to travel, sail around the world, focus on music, dance . . . etc. all often have terrific incentives and dedicated parents.
I often wonder about the high percentages of home schooled students delivering local newspapers. How much work will be done by some home schoolers, now that work can start as young as 12 years old, if their parents aren't dedicated to their education? It goes back to the foundation of our public education system, doesn't it?
murdock
7 years ago
moat writes:
But public schooling is a goal of society. We all pay for in the same way that we pay for roads. Think about it, someone who lives in Prince Rupert has to subsidize Greater Vancouver's transit system. That is part of being in a society. However, I do believe that parents who home school should receive some tax benefiets.
Individualized education does beat mass education hands down. But trashing the public system does not lead to an individualized or a better education system.
For the comment about your saying I must pay for a government service (institutionalized school system) that I will never take any benefit from = yes you do say that I must place my child in the hands of strangers and accept that the 'state' knows best. Nothing of the community or parents. This situation is worse in BC since the local school boards are powerless hostages to the unionized teachers.
you futher state:
I say that the public schooling is a gaol of society, where the bright are dumbed-down for some demented social aim and those who have 'developmental problems' or are 'behind' for thier age are dropped out from the advancement all together for the 'sake' of society goals.
Who decided these goals? How can they be changed?
I am not advocating 'trashing' the current system, I do want to have MY OWN TAX contribution that is supposed to be going the schooling of my children to go to my children. I am proposing that some sort of method to achieve that aim.
In answer to my two above questions, the society, and through argument, dialogue and according to the current customs of democracy.
I accept that my views and plans are not in the majority (as the majority rule in democratic systems), but that does not mean that I give up my voice and cannot lobby for change.
murdock
7 years ago
Louise writes:
now if a teacher or a school totally bollux things up, whom do I turn to? Is there anyone accountable to me or my child? As a system it sounds wonderful, looks great on paper; but has absolutely no and I mean NO ACCOUNTABILITY. There is no one to sue, charge (unless a teacher is caught doing something sexual) or have fines levied. Teachers and the 'school-system' are bullet-proof to their supposed accountability, even the moral 'society' argument is bunk.
No teacher has ever been fired for incompetence.
I defy anyone to give a direct reference that any teacher has been fired that does not involve anything other than teacher skill.
Elliot
7 years ago
'No teacher has ever been fired for incompetence.' that's because the union encourages to go on long-term disability before the hammer is brought down. the whole system's a bloody joke. hopefully there will be at least some accountability with the introduction of more provincial exams. they need to be instituted as early as grade 7 or 8, otherwise the lazy-assed teachers can 'teach' whatever the hell they want.
murdock
7 years ago
Louise writes:
Let us take a 'school day' and 'class' in time and break it down?
8:30 am to 10:00 am Class
10:00 am to 10:30 am Break
10:30 am to 12:00 pm Class
12:00 pm to 1:00 pm Lunch
1:00 pm to 3:00 pm Class
Now the times and plans are 'generic' and I am doing this to discuss time, not subjects or a school minutia.
Let us say an average of 25 students in a class making 1/25th of the time available for direct supported study present for the teacher, let us be really generous and give that teacher an assistant making 1/12th of the time available for supported study. The times given above amount to 360 minutes of class time each day, making about 30 minutes of time directly available per student for 'supported' learning - this is the 'help' time when breakthroughs in understanding can really happen effectively.
Ultimately, then a homeschooled child who spends about 5.5 hours reading or working alone on math problems etc and getting 1/2 hour with a parent's guidance in getting breakthroughs will come close to the school system experience.
Now I am not saying that all children will goof off after school time, but since only a 3-5 hour time period each day is needed to achieve satisfactory results for a grade 5 child (around age 12), then a homeschooled child could get an exercise by being out delivering newspapers (as school children do I DID and went to public school), for an hour every day earning money and taking responsibility for those earnings while getting some exercise (something not all children do every day in public schools) and still have more than enough time to complete written and math assignments and go to a music lesson all in the same day!
I have read about (and read the complaints here) the so-called children who are homeschooled and appear to not have the same skills as thier age-grade cohort. Were all the stories true I would consider the parents neglectful and deserving of the sort of scorn I have heaped in the direction of incompetent teachers in the Public system.
These children that I have met, who did not have the same parental supported learning, have very different skills, one is now a concert pianist, he started piano at 14 after he had done some jobs and found one in a music instrument repair and piano tuner shop, got lessons in trade for work and found he had a natural musical talent. It had never been surpressed and he had never been told he could not do anything. He is now 27 and told me he wants to take up painting, he is saving now to go to Emily Carr.
A family friend is doing the 'unschooling' in Victoria, so far the eldest is 9 and youngest 5, they both can read and write, but I was impressed with the 9 year olds logical reasoning skills and depth of knowledge of current events.
These are anecdotal, I know, but I am not aware of any studys or statistics of 'unschoolers' outcomes.
Zee
7 years ago
Testing may be all fine and dandy in the higher grades to catch the lazy teachers. But what about the teachers who fail to teach the students in the lower grades. I know many teachers who fail to teach children in the elementary grades and continue to do so year after year. The schools sure dont stop them even when it is proven, they just hope they retire early. For these children grade 7 and 8 is too late to catch these teachers. We ran into this problem in the system and have chosen to correct it.
Homeschooling parents are more capable at meeting our childrens needs in education. I allowed my daughter to take the FSA test last year what a waste of our time. We got the results back and she meets expectations. WHO CARES. We want to know how she did, where she may have difficulties. This type of test is a waste of time for everyone as it doesnt help figure out if and where there are problem areas. We (homeschoolers) understand our childrens needs and dont have to rely on policy, funding, union jobs, or diagnosis to work on solving the problem. We as homeschooling parents are more invested in ensuring our children get a good education at home. Whether it is delivering the local paper etc. By delivering the paper the kids are learning responsibility, doing their math by keeping track of income and expense, saving for something they want etc. Thus training and teaching the child to be a more responsible adult, and teaching real life skills that will be required as an adult.
Moat
7 years ago
bc4me wrote:
Agreed, he is not a neo-con, but indirectly he is doing the work of neo-cons by poking at the system. Although he was a a "liberal" in the sense that he tried to change the system from the inside, he now makes his living by attacking it.
Kind words..... but where do we start. It is easy to identify problems, but the only one implementing "solutions" are the "neo-cons". The NCLB act is proof of this. Where does your "Wondertree" and "Virtual High" fit with such legislation?
Louise
7 years ago
??? So the parent educators, without the necessary education needed to be certified teachers, will be knowledgeable, accountable and motivated all of the time. Far better than the existing bunch.
Because they're not in a union. ????
I expect to see some extremely successful homeschooled adults in our society and some uneducated homeschooled adults. There will be all extremes. (Sounds so human, doesn't it?)
I fully expect home schooled children to successfully sue their parents for depriving them of an education. Hopefully these will be far and few between.
Zee and others want to deconstruct our education system where all teachers are trained in subject areas AND education, screened, and tested through practical experience in the classroom for parents who really, really care and so will do better.
Wow! Let's take this a step further and look to the future. Will be have superior doctors and nurses, too, who wish to be doctors and nurses?
chevy
7 years ago
Good article. I believe that I am able to appreciate this kind of literature because of the education that I have. I am 28 and going back to school. Why? Because I thought I had life figured out at 23. Excellent government job, good benefits, a house and mortgage and life looked grand. Anyhow, the government changed and my job, with countless others, was cut back. I have since recovered. I struggled for a few years with two jobs but I was able to keep my house. I think I appreciate the privilege of getting an education more now than ever. I'm going back to finish my bachelor's degree. I'm also looking into doing a master's also. Why? A) Its interesting and because I can and B) I get a raise and a better job if I get that master's degree. I am the type that is slower to learn than most people. I need to read and re-read things. Elementary and high school taught me different lessons. These are life lessons like: How to interact with eople, How to get through conflicts, how to get something done and achieved through individual effort and/or a team effort. As our economy changes, we are more reliant on teams, people pooling their heads together. Technology has changed that. Is that for the better? I don't know yet. I think high school support needs some changes and I do have some ideas but I don't think they are complete yet.
Some of you have eluded to the fact that 'union-run schools' are bad. Wake up, unions don't run schools. They just represent teachers and support staff who would be treated like garbage if they didn't have representation. If you want to argue educational fundamentals, talk about concepts, curriculum or resources. Unions have no say in the above. There is no requirements or courses in the Professional Development Program at the universities teaching union involvement or negotiating education.
My two cents worth. I'm working on my grammar so if the above post doesn't read well, my apologies. I'm getting back to what real writing is about and its taking some time and effort.
Moat
7 years ago
Louise wrote,
This is the problem. Although teachers claim to be into "authentic assessment" and against standardized testing, many can be lured by a few bucks and the chance of advancement into implementing "packaged" education.
Teachers are their own worst enemy, and this is why they are not treated as professionals by many segments of society.
The teachers are delivering the curriculum that they created. It is so broad that no one can cover everything.
Ideas and concepts are treated superficially.
Remember the silly "Poppy" debate?
Hmmmm, for a fee. I get directed to the "Queen's Printer" so that I may order the IRPs. How can the Ministry charge for this?
And where is the BCTF in bringing this to the public's attention?
redrivergirl
7 years ago
From the guy's own web site.
Yes, there are small differences bwtn many Libertarians and Neo-cons and Social Darwinists, but when it comes to Milton there are precious few. And, of course, with many, there isn't any difference whatsoever.
The voucher system and it's variants will take money out of poor schools and neighbourhoods(and therefore from poor children) creating huge disparity. Even more than there is now. That's a fact.
It is ridiculous to the extreme to beat up on teachers and their union. It does further your goals though, doesn't it? Other people's children be damned. Including those who would home-school, because some of you know full well what this is about. It isn't about choice at all.
Louise
7 years ago
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/irp/lo.html
There's the IRP site. All IRP materials are there and can be printed out on your own printer.
Teachers don't order them, they are downloaded onto their computers or printed out.
You've got a real racket going on regarding teachers. We haven't yet seen packaged education in BC. All IRP's and assessment tools are made and implemented by BC teachers, earning considerably less than commercial counterparts in the USA.
Your research is faulty, Moat! Histrionics, not facts.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Moat, any involved parent will know what their child is learning. Hopefully, they are sitting down with them at study hour.
Zee
7 years ago
I do not know of anyone anywhere who is motivated all the time. Homeschooling parents like any other teacher can feel very unmotivated from time to time. It is human nature. But where a where a parent isnt knowledgeable in an area they will work to understand so they can help their child or know someone who is able to help. For homeschooling parents it isnt about doing it all yourself, but about providing the best possible way to learn, a way that best meets a particular childs needs. I am able to plan my curriculum and adapt it for each of my children so that they may best learn in their way. We dont have a set formula for how to teach every child.
Who wants to "deconstruct" the school system? Certianly not me. What I want is for people not to assume that I am royaly screwing up my childrens lives and education because I know I can do a better job than people who really dont care how my children do past a particular year/subject. My children are very happy and learning what is important to all of us. This is the case with most homeschooling children.
I would not have homeschooled as a child as my ex step dad was always home and being home was unbareable. I disliked school and did it because I had to. It was the lesser of 2 evils. But have I sued my mother for either? NO. Canadians are not like the Americans in this way.
Say you EXPECT to see homeschoolers sueing their parents for lack of education. I am surprised there arent children suing their parents/govt for forcing them to attend schools
for the lack of education, for not seeing to childrens needs and helping them. The people who most want the public school system to change are the people whose children are a part of it. Not those who choose not to utilize it. We will tell you why we dont want our children there but it is the parents of school children who you hear demanding change to help their children.
Yeah my childrens teachers were trained, but completely ignored the specific needs that they had to learn. When a teacher (and many do) do this it makes for a very difficult time for the child to learn.
As for unions they play a big part in schools. Parents cant come in and do some things to help there children. Why? because they are doing a union job for NO PAY. But the school/govt doesnt/wont pay a person to do that job. So how looses the child. We have gone through this. My daughter needed some special services that she didnt/wouldnt get because they didnt SEE the need for it, but I couldnt come in and provide that little help, because im not union and took a job that they were unwilling to give.
Moat
7 years ago
Louise,
My information is not faulty at all. It has changed recently. They were not "free" a month ago. I am aware that the IRPs were free for years. But things are slowly changing.
Have a look for yourself....read carefully.
From a Google search
CrownPub: SOCIAL STUDIES
... in Basket: none. Social Studies 11 Integrated Resource Package Code:
18-IRP062 Price: $11.87 Quantity in Basket: none. GEOGRAPHY 12 ...
miva.crownpub.bc.ca/.../merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY& Store_Code=CTB&Category_Code=CP.02.01.20.15.05.38 - 35k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Basket? Quantity? Merchant?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
redrivergirl
7 years ago
This is taken from an extremely flattering reveiw of Gatto's work.
"Nevertheless, there is a fundamental issue at stake here, which could end up sharply dividing the holistic education movement if we do not sensitively address it. Gatto, like John Holt and a great many homeschoolers, holds and defends a libertarian social philosophy, In the John Locke/Adam Smith tradition. Gatto argues that a common (social) good arises only out of the free interaction of individuals and intimate communities pursuing their own local good. Individuals and families are seen as the primary human reality, while social forces are generally treated as a distressing nuisance. (The term 'social engineers' seems to include anyone who seriously addresses social issues.)"
"In the spirit of dialectical discourse (honest disagreement leading to a more inclusive synthesis), which Gatto admires and knows to be the heart of genuine education, I wish to oppose the libertarian position with one that is more socially conscious. I am especially sensitive to the nuances of this question, since I spent several of my intellectual formative years as an enthusiastic student of libertarian philosophy and political theory, and still have a great deal of sympathy for it. Gatto is justified in calling for a genuine community life - to replace the stultifying power of the state, huge corporations, self-serving experts and professionals, and all impersonal institutions. Like other libertarians and homeschool advocates, however, Gatto throws the baby out with the bathwater by categorically defining 'school' as an impersonal network and virtually equating educators and activists with 'social engineers.'"
http://www.spinninglobe.net/dumbingrev.htm
And, I noticed that some of his complaints such as teaching without context are issues that a creative teacher circumvents daily and is a part of being a good teacher. Changing the system won't change that problem.
Another thing, the American system is very different than ours with very different problems. I am suspicious that their system is really broken as well though. I know many people in Beverly Hills send their kids to the local public shcool. Why? Because it is an excellent one and well resourced. The biggest problem in education is resources. That and the cowardly attack on our social programs for personal gain.
marta
7 years ago
Zee
Your posts leave a great deal to be desired in terms of spelling, punctuation, and grammar (particularly the sentence fragment), so I'm not convinced that you are the best person to be teaching your children writing and grammar.
And writing and grammar do count if you want your children to go on to post-secondary education. I teach university classes, so I know they count.
You also have a problem with basic logic. Look up ad populum. You're guilty of that particular fallacy.
And yes, I know I could be accused of making an ad hominem attack here, but I do think if a person is stating she is the best person to teach her children, she should at least show basic competency in writing.
Moat
7 years ago
Whoa marta,
You are right, you comment to Zee is a bit of an "ad hominem" attack.
Yes, spelling and grammar is important, but you need to take into account the medium here. This "blogging" is a stream of ideas. Editing work and making people self-concious of their grammar will hinder the exchange of ideas. Errors should not distract from meaning, but I believe that they are acceptable.
As for "ad populum", careful here. This is more of a neo-con thing. Mind you, read the generalizations in Vandermeer's article. Lazy teachers, boring curriculum, school as a "prison", etc.
The real issues sure become hidden in the communication.
murdock
7 years ago
from redrivergirl:
Why should you care? You have already said that as long as the $$$ doesn't go to a 'private' school it matters not to you. Poor or not should make not a wiff of difference if it is not 'private', right?
No facts to support the so-called poor schools getting funding cut, nor of dropping outcomes. Look into the 'voucher' system in use in The Netherlands since 1901. You will find FACTS that dispute your entire argument.
murdock
7 years ago
redrivergirl says:
Now you are saying that parents have to pay the teachers to be with the children during the day 'teaching' them and at night 'teach' more with the children?
If you are hoping this of the majority in the system, you are hoping for too much.
Louise
7 years ago
Have a look for yourself....read carefully.
From a Google search
CrownPub: SOCIAL STUDIES
... in Basket: none. Social Studies 11 Integrated Resource Package Code:
18-IRP062 Price: $11.87 Quantity in Basket: none. GEOGRAPHY 12 ...
miva.crownpub.bc.ca/.../merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY& Store_Code=CTB&Category_Code=CP.02.01.20.15.05.38 - 35k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
Basket? Quantity? Merchant?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Nonsense! I have been using the Ministry of Education website on a regular basis for years. It's part of my job as a professional teacher.
If you're going to use a search engine, such as google, you need to use it with skill and knowledge. Every google listing given will not work to give you what you want. If this is as far as you got, your skills could use improvement. Include "BC Ministry of Education" in your search and you'll have more success.
The discourse above has truly demonstrated that the knee-jerk reaction against the public school system is championed by extremists.
The support given for the best of both systems is far more credible.
If parents are dedicated to ensuring their children gain a good education, the children have every chance of success. Demonstrating that you value their education is the first step.
Expecting success with a one parent home schooling situation is unlikely to be successful, any more than one classroom teacher for grades 1 to 12 would be successful. But an avid home schooling parent using creativity and all of the online schooling resources available could be extremely successful.
And a parent who expects the school system to motivate, monitor and take full responsibility for a childs education is similarly unrealistic. Public schools are busy places which offer all the opportunity for a great education. Children need to have realistic goals and expectations in order to be successful.
Zee
7 years ago
hmmmmmmm
Well grammar, punctuation and spelling are all areas that have been problematic for as long as I can remember. When it counts I rely heavily on my dictionary and word processor to help me out. I also rely on my husband to proof read for me and I will take my time and go back and reread what I have done as a means to catch any mistakes. I, however, am not perfect and knowing that I do take extra care to pay attention to my important written work. You may also like to know that I also have trouble with numbers. I consistantly reverse my numbers (I say I am number dislexic). I am great at math and passed manual and computer bookkeeping with a perfect score, and loved the complex math in college. Again due to the fact that I have trouble with numbers I really pay attention to what I am doing and go over my work. I guess the key is to know your strengths and weaknesses and work from there. It could be that my children, because of my weaknesses, wont have the same troubles as I do, because of me. Again homeschooling parents do look outside their home to friends, neighbours, community and family to fill in the areas they need help in.
As for thinking my opinion is the right one it is for me and my family. No where have I ever said it was the right thing for everyone or that it is the only opinion.
Moat
7 years ago
Louise wrote:
Fine Louise. Choose to ignore information that does not fit with your world view. When I was looking for some information (about a month ago) about BC Curriculum, the first pages that came up were from "Crown Publicatons". The link is broken now, but it still reveals a direction being taken.
Type in this on your Google bar....
"social studies 11" "integrated resource package"
That's a bit of a smug comment. I imagnine you will be one of the first to complain about the commercialization of our educational system when it happens.
Unfortunately, many teachers tend to stick behind the trends, and because of this, they are their own worse enemies. Rather than lead, they wait to be dictated to.
Think of way back when computers were introduced in schools. When I was in high school, many teachers rejected typed work at first, saying that everything had to be hand-written to avoid plagiarism.
Then Apple came in and gave teachers Apples. Then everything HAD to be done on the Apple.
However, technology in school is another issue and is getting off topic.
Louise
7 years ago
I rest my case! Home schoolers revealed, in their own words. Non-union, untrained and apparently never wrong!
Well, the extremists, perhaps. Not all.
Merry Christmas! It's family time.
Moat
7 years ago
Louise wrote
Well, the extremists, perhaps. Not all.
Well, er, who is that comment directed to?
I guess you can "rest your case" while the rest of us can have a discussion.
marta
7 years ago
To Zee and Moat
Yes I was being a bit nasty there, and I admit it. I apologize for my snarkiness. I do stand by my assertion that good grammar is important
in university and the work world for all kinds of reasons, not least clarity of thought and clarity of communication.
However, I do think there is a tendency amongst some of the unschoolers or home schoolers posting here to assume that the terrible experiences they had in school are shared by the vast majority of students.
There may also be some projection of their own experiences onto their children (a widespread human failing, of course).
I wonder when someone will try to argue that his or her child/young adult should take university classes at home and be given credit for them? Wouldn't surprise me at all.
Moat
7 years ago
marta wrote....
I agree with you here. There is almost this assumption by some that school is a nasty place.
During the teacher's strike, you did not hear hordes of parents and children in the streets saying....
"Yay! We now have the opportunity to try homeschooling thanks to the stike!"
or,
"Now that we have tried a couple of weeks at home, we are never going back to public school."
No, you had students and parents across the province demanding the government and teachers work towards a settlemtent. There were not hundreds of people breaking down the doors of private schools either.
Students did miss school. Even for the socialization aspect. Young people are very social beings. It is part of thier development.
Moat
7 years ago
and yes, there are typos in my above post ;)
Moat
7 years ago
I will blame my fingers, or better yet, some public school teacher I had in Grade 2.
j/k
Burgess
7 years ago
One can always tell when the rightwingnuts start bagging about the BCTF and teacher supervision. Mindless uneducated rhetoric. ALL professional organizations police and defend their members as required by the organizations by-laws. There is a remediation process in place as there is for any organization. There is a mechanism to remove incompetant teachers it is just that board officials 'refuse' to carry through on the School Act's powers to remove teachers deemed not to be satisfactory. (We are not talking about teacher removed, dismissed and fired for other offences) Administrators just find it easier to transfer, pidgeon hole, or suspend (with pay) because it is easier to point fingers at the BCTF and many of the folks commenting here love to play the blame game as well.
Elliot
7 years ago
that's a crock of shite burgess. the administrators don't follow through because it's not worth fighting the union. period. consequently there are far too many teachers out there who aren't fit to teach my dog, let alone my children.
Zee
7 years ago
regardless of what homeschooling parents know to be true and right for their children, many arent going to listen or even care. You dont want to hear what we have to say, you are just angry that we have decided to do something different, maybe something you were unable or unwilling to do for your children. We know homeschooling is not for every family, just as traditional school is not for every child. What we care about is that our children are getting what they need, and letting others know that there is an option. Our children dont care wether or not we are educated or not, just that we are able to explain things to them and give them the help/attention when it is needed.
My children definatly dont care that I am not considered (by people here), or that my spelling, grammar and punctuation isnt great. They want to read with me, my help with math problems, learning socials and science. They want my praise on their discoveries of new information they found all on their own and for their creativeness in art. They want to play their newly mastered piano song or to show me that they have completed all the badge requirements for Scouts and Guides. I love watching their faces when they finally understand that math concept that has been troubling them, or when they read a very difficult word without help. Being with them when they make discoveries both great and small is the thing that gives all homeschooling parents the encouragement we need to go on when we are struggling. The only real thing lacking in a homeschoolers life is the fact that more people arent supportive of their educational choice.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
Elliot,
Unless you have recently worked in a large number of public schools and with a large number of public school teachers, then you have no first hand knowledge to use when you speak about the jobs that the vast majority of public school teachers perform.
Of people that I have encountered who are teachers or who work with teachers have few complaints about the jobs that these professionals do. I work in the public school system and I firmly believe that the worst teacher I have ever seen/experienced is a non-union teacher holdout from before the BCTF became a union. I have no idea why this person is kept on. If this teacher belonged to the BCTF and would quit badmouthing the union, then other union members would be encouraging this person to attend some of the professional development conferences put on by the many Provincial Specialist Associations within the BCTF.
The second most problematic/destructive people I have encountered working with children in the public school system are administrators who believe that top-down is the way to manage teachers/professionals who are often more schooled and skilled than they, themselves, the administrators. Public school teachers have been shown (and have researched on their own) countless times the best ways to teach and increase student learning.
Politicians and administrators often get in the way of good student learning. That said, I would never want to be either a middle manager or upper management. I like working with and and fostering growth in students and their families.
I am a public school teacher and every one of my students is on an IEP (Individual Education Program). An IEP is Ministry of Education-speak for a contract between myself, my students & their parents, and other teachers for comprehensive individualized learning plans that take into account a students skills, abilities, likes, and dislikes.
In my 15 years as a teacher, I have had less than a handful of parents complain about anything I have done with their children. I show students (and their parents) how to access their cognitive and creative skills/abillities then I demand creativity and organization and civility. I have a great time as a public school teacher and so do my students. Articles like this take the focus away from the real issue - money. If you want something done professionally, you have to pay for it, and damn anyone who wants to leave any child behind.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
I apologise for not proofing my previous post. I clicked "Post Comment" while I still felt the fire of what I was writing. Still, I believe that enough of my intent is within that first draft for it to be understood by most readers. If I were one of my students, I would send myself back to do it over. Woe, I know (too well) that weakness in grammar while emotion is high is common for some (like me).
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Where did I say that, Murdock? I didn't. What I said is not a penny of mine that I now pay via my taxes for public education will go for anything other than just that. I am not having my taxes go to some multinational to deliver education, nor a voucher to a parent. No. This is because I passionately believe in every child's opportunity and a just society, where the lottery of one's birth doesn't condemn one to hell on earth. I believe in a well funded public education system. It is just so unbelievable that in Canada,one even needs to assert this, don't you think?
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I am always proof-reading after I post. sigh
And, I love sentence fragments etc as a matter of style. I am always vowing not to correct my posts, breaking my vow in cases of the worst spelling, (because of my ego) and vowing again to refrain.
c'est la vie :)
Moat
7 years ago
sharing is good wrote,
redrivergirl then wrote,
This spelling thing is really getting us paranoid. Please Tyee, build us a grammar check to free us. I don't care what that Truss (Eats Shoots, and Leaves) says.
Ahhhh!
Moat
7 years ago
Ok, and before this article disappears, let's have a final look at what Vandermeer writes.
Interesting. The home schooled kid needs his mother to finish his sentences. Imagine if his teacher was doing that. Has the mother been to prison? And get the comment about being treated like a “customerâ€. At least he could have used the word “clientâ€.
Pretty major generalizations here. Feet stomping.
Self-directed vs. self-centered education. Sigh, sometimes we do have to abide by social conventions. Are well talking about pounding in a loose nail here, or simply someone who wants to monopolize a class?
I can hardly imagine a morning class where “everyone just wants to go home.†Building social skills sucks sometimes. Ask Elliot, Ron Erwin, etc….
Let’s face it, one cannot really argue with this. Cameras in schools, automated dialers reporting absences, etc. How do we teach about trust when the students are being constantly watched? Of course they are going to do weird crap – they are teenagers!
Fair enough. Good call. But public school really does lend itself to public speaking, and a forum for sharing with peers.
Is “word bending†part of the “unschooling†PE curriculum?
Bashu does sound like an exceptional and wonderful young person. But many adolescents do not yet have the maturity level for a university type of delviery. If Bashu is truly gifted, then I don’t think (I hope) many people have any problem with him moving to a level that challenges.
Maybe we could work towards some sort of university type delivery in high school? Let's learn from Bashu's experience here!
So, is Prienitz blaming society’s ills on the school system? Hmmmmm, maybe I am reading this wrong.
Good article for promoting discussion though. At least we are talking about education.
Linden
7 years ago
Wow. That's really vindictive redrivergirl. Learn those social skills in school did you?
Zee
7 years ago
Not all teachers are lazy teachers, we have had both. It is the lazy/bad ones that turn parents/children away from the public school.
Redrivergirl said:
What does this have to do with homeschooling, or even private school children. I know of several children who go to private school only because the school has given them a full subsidy, and these kids are not brilliant, they are average. And just because a parent homeschools doesnt mean that they have are rich or even well off. I know several families who are living at or just above welfare level (but not on). In BC you can not homeschool your children if you are on welfare. We are just bairly making ends meet, even more so now that my husband has a non work related injury preventing him from working. It is a choice and sacrifice we make for our children. Now some families dont stuggle as much and other dont have to worry about money, but that has nothing to do with a persons choice to homeschool.
Linden
7 years ago
Here's an article from Stanford University's Alumni magazine:
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2000/novdec/articles/homeschooling.html
Some quotes from an old Time Magazine article -the link is below:
Certainly the old suspicion of the academic credentials of home-schooled kids has waned; perhaps three-quarters of universities now have policies for dealing with home-schooled applicants, according to Cafi Cohen, author of The Homeschoolers' College Admissions Handbook. Today Harvard admissions officers attend home-schooling conferences looking for applicants, and Rice and Stanford admit home schoolers at rates equal to or higher than those for public schoolers. These schools compete for students like L.J. Decker, 17, from Katy, Texas, who scored 1560 on the SAT and was part of a team of home schoolers who won the Toshiba ExploraVision contest for their idea of a futuristic scuba device that would use artificial hemoglobin to convert the oxygen in water into air.
Some colleges, like Kennesaw State University in Georgia, aggressively recruit home schoolers. Justin Tomczak, 22, now a sales associate for Salomon Smith Barney, was one of them. After he arrived at Kennesaw several years ago, he started a group for home-schooled kids, but today home schoolers have become so integrated into campus life that the group has pretty much disbanded. "Back then, [other students] thought we were religious weirdos who couldn't cope," he says. "Now the perception is totally different."
That's partly because the old canard that home schoolers are hermits has largely been disproven. In fact nearly 1 in 5 takes at least one class in a public or private school, according to the Federal Government. Home schoolers participate in extracurricular activities too. Many of the home-schooling parents interviewed by Time were just as busy as any parents scheduling baseball practices and ballet classes. Judi Thomas of Marietta, Ga., says her daughter Juliet, 9, "has tap and ballet on Tuesdays; Wednesdays, there's choir; Thursdays, she has classes with other home schoolers; Fridays, there's usually a play date or a field trip."
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010827/cover.html
Read carefully, I'm sure you can pick out some negatives! ;o)
nestingtree
7 years ago
Bullcrap. I went to public school in Burnaby, got scholarships to do graduate work, and now I'm considered a creative academic, working with folks like Chomsky.
It's also simply not true that education here focuses on reading. Gatto might like to think we are the same as the US, and that is false. My children spend a huge amount of time writing (saving reading for home), and have been doing public speaking in school almost every day since grade 1.
Linden
7 years ago
Moat wrote...
"Yay! We now have the opportunity to try homeschooling thanks to the stike!"
No, but we sure saw lots of people wondering what they were going to do about daycare. I saw lots of people on the news talking about babysitting, not education.
There were also a frightening number of kids and parents who seemed to think that just because the teacher wasn't there to tell them what to do they couldn't learn. 2 weeks out of a lifetime and some kids were talking like their lives were ruined! Obviously they weren't being taught to think for themselves.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
There were also a frightening number of kids and parents who seemed to think that just because the teacher wasn't there to tell them what to do they couldn't learn. 2 weeks out of a lifetime and some kids were talking like their lives were ruined! Obviously they weren't being taught to think for themselves.
We must note that mainstream press had to work extra hard to find those sound bites. Further, Global, CTV and the government were constantly going on about how children were victims who weren't able to learn because of the "illegal strike." The electronic version of the Sun left an open forum editorial running for 10 days that played upon an unfortunate and out of context comment made by Irene Lanzinger. The headline, itself, was inflamatory and slanted in its delivery. I have met with Irene and she is 100% behind students and teachers. The Sun could have provided a forum that spoke of ways parents could support their children's learning at home to keep them sharp and ready to return. They could have written a piece that spoke of the thousands of teachers who gave students and their parents assignments and direction on what those students may learn during the job action.
Perhaps if schools/teachers didn't have to compete with 3-5 daily hours of TV/video games that most children live with when not at school, then it would be easier not to have to lead them. Creativity being fostered in the homes, ha! Most of the students return from summer holidays with an undisciplined mind; they are unable to focus for more than a few minutes at a time. Most don't spend their summers creatively exploring, reading or debating the philosophical and ethical questions posed at school. Most spend their summers watching video and TV that is not meant for children. They do this when they are not killing ho's for their money in Grand Theft Auto. By summer's end, they are so bored that they joyously return to teachers who will drag them from their trances.
Deadend
7 years ago
There is some truth to this. Although I would think it has to do with a much more deeply ingrainted anglo-saxon notion of "place in society" than simply a nefarious subtext to the actual public system.
Although anticdotaly:
When I entered first grade, I stepped into the public system. My parents had recently divorced and the money was no longer there to send me to Montesourri school.
I had learned letters, lower case and capitals, although not the gramatical purpose of the letters.
Instructed to write my name on a paper, I wrote it in all capitals, because I liked them better.
Of course, this is wrong, so the teacher instructed me to write my name on another paper x number of times to do it "right". Well I did, but I didn't follow any formula, rather I tried to find every combination of capitals and non capitals I could. deadenD DEadEnD DeaDEND, you get the idea. I was told I was wrong and shown "Deadend" (an alias of course).
Now, I know writing your naMe like that will make you look like an idiot. But here's my point: It was a shock to go from a system that promoted thinking and creativity to one that suddenly was mainly interested in your level of ignorance of convention.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
Hello Deadend,
I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience Grade 1 in the public school. I note that you could have used more personalized/individualized instruction. This is one of the major reasons that teachers advocate for reduced class sizes, particularly in the primary years. The larger the class, the less time the teacher has to listen and explain, the more they have to maintain order and teach to "convention."
How long ago did you attend that first grade classroom? The reason I ask this is because teachers have been trying to work alot of that sort of mundanity out of their teaching - particularly for the younger students. However, many parents come to school screaming that the teacher is worthless if they see their children being permitted to write outside of convention. Damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
Travis
7 years ago
"... but where do we start. It is easy to identify problems, but the only one implementing "solutions" are the "neo-cons"."
This is what I've been saying.
School vouchers is one idea that gets thrown around a bit. Follow the link for one opinion (not necessarily my own).
There was another article I read recently (which I can't find) which came down very hard on school vouchers, describing the horrors of some of the new "schools" that had popped up in one district after the introduction of vouchers. If the article was to be believed, there were "schools" that were literally holes in the wall, with genuine nutcases running them. Wish I could find it.
Changing school from within the system is a non-starter, and creating alternatives runs directly into serious political problems (problems if you're a leftist, anyways—not so much if you're a libertarian or a conservative or anybody whose economic view leans to the right).
It seems like the best that can be done if one favours serious change to our school system is to advocate for choice and then to hope that if choices become available (funded) that that will somehow turn out for the best and not end up being a gift to the right.
I wonder if there's a better way.
-Travis
Travis
7 years ago
And for those of you who had a fine time in school, that's great, but what if you could have had an even better time? School reform could benefit even those who tend to succeed in our present system. Saying that there are people who do okay in school-as-we-know-it is not an argument against change for the better.
-Travis
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Quote:
?
Well, Lindon, you'll need to enlighten me how this is a vindictive statement.
Is it possible you missed my point?
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Is it possible that a different way of looking at this might be, that it creates problems if you are someone who cares about other people's children, and/or what the consequences of policies and actions will have on society as a whole? And, that it also creates problems for those poorer children who will be effected regardless of their political view or lack thereof?
Louise, you are so right. We are woefully lacking in critical thinking skills and never have we needed them more.
Moat, you did a great job of deconstructing parts of the article.
Zee, many of the things you describe doing with and for your children are things that good parents do. I am glad for your children that you are a good parent. :) The things you describe are things many parents do with their children outside of the school day and week.
No school can provide everything for children. As Nestingtree points out, our system does provide a quality academic education that allows all children a vehicle to achieve their potential. This is a vital task of our system and one that vouchers etc would eliminate for many kids.
It's a bonus if your teacher is a creative, dynamic teacher. Many are.
Travis, vouchers are the idea of Milton Freidman. The God of the 'free-market'. There's a reason he likes them.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
I'll make it easy for you Linden.
I was refering in part to the bastardization of Plato's theory which allows a predatory 'class' of people to act in anti-social, sociopathic ways to hold positions of power within our society. I was also refering to the adoption of Nietzsche style nihlism, changed into our current hybrid of 'rational' for social irresponsibility and our new wave of colonization. Did you know that much of Nietzche's 'slave' traits ect are in fact some of the more beautiful traits of the feminine? (feminine, not gender specific) Our new package of ideologies that are allowing our society to be plundered don't value those things very much. Just as the actual corporation does not.
My comment refers to those things, and my hope expressed is that Bashu Naimi-Roy is afforded a true education. One that allows him to be wise.
This is not to say I do not have a lot of anger towards what is happening in our society. I do. I'm not in denial about what is happening. I am not ashamed of it. This anger is not a reflection on my manners, which are lovely.
Burgess
7 years ago
It is curious that Elliot has no real evidence or whatever except bile and bias. And typical of the mindset turns to abuse as a tactic. Possting should be better than that.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Yikes, Our new package of ideologies that is allowing our society to be plundered doesn't value those things very much.
Linden
7 years ago
redrivergirl said...
My apologies. I misread the original post, and inferred an incorrect meaning.
Linden
7 years ago
commentor: Moat posted:
Give me a break. The boy pauses to think of a word, his mom tosses one out, and suddenly he's a homeschool kid who needs his mom to finish his sentences? That's REALLY grasping Moat.
Self-directed vs. self-centered education. Sigh, sometimes we do have to abide by social conventions. Are well talking about pounding in a loose nail here, or simply someone who wants to monopolize a class?
And this is a neat way to turn the situation around to place blame on the girl. I've sat in on classes just like that, where the majority of kids are horsing around and only a few seem to be there to learn something. Let's not blame the kids for wanting to learn by calling them self-centered.
Is “word bending†part of the “unschooling†PE curriculum?
This is so petty as to render all your comments suspect.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Apology accepted, Linden. Thank you.
Travis, I just read your link on vouchers. It says it all. Thanks for providing it.
Moat
7 years ago
Linden,
So after being “lectured†to by a public school teacher (Louise) for attacking public education, it appears that I have now annoyed an “unschooler†for going back and analyzing the article again.
Linden wrote...
You may label my comments “suspect†and unbalanced. When re-reading Vandermeer’s article, I did have a few chuckles out-loud as I realized that some of the things being written were a bit outrageous. I stand by my comments as an exercise in rhetoric.
Let’s look again at the article…
Vandermeer wrote...
Hmmm, and “unschooling†is going to solve this? And does Priesnitz’s book even relate to unschooling? What about the working poor, or single parents who need to be working to put a roof over the head’s of their children? Will the working poor have time to “unschool†their children?
*Yes, I do agree that the public school system needs changes, but starving it to death is not the answer*
You basically accuse me of not providing balance in my comments. And no, I did not. But neither did Vandermeer. However, Vandermeer did an excellent job of promoting discussion.
And if that was ultimately his goal, he accomplished it.
Linden
7 years ago
Actually I'm not an unschooler, I'm a homeschooler. Yes, there go those terms again! I happen to insist my kids do math, which would definitely not qualify me as an unschooler.
I don't know if Wendy Priesnitz is advocating unschooling as an answer to all societal ills or not. I know Wendy, and I can't say I've always agreed with her stance on unschooling. But she's very passionate on the subject, and her daughter certainly proves unschooling has worked for her.
My original comments, Wendy aside, were that homeschooling, in whatever form it takes, isn't for everybody. And like any other way of life it will have it's failures as well as it's successes.
By the way, I know families and single moms who qualify as the 'working poor' who do homeschool. They make huge sacrifices to do so, but feel their kids are worth it. Just like some people work 2 or more jobs so their kids can go to private school. I know one family who moved just so their kids could go to a specific public school with a really good reputation. Parents, generally, do what they think is best for their children.
Moat
7 years ago
Linden wrote....
I am not going to argue with this. But we have to factor in ALL those costs. Families who work 2 or more jobs so that thier children going to private school are also paying in other ways. What those parents are essentially doing is working to pay someone else to raise their child. If the parent is out of the home all the time, many of the benefits of the "superior" education will be negated.
As well, there needs to be consideration for post-secondary costs as well. I am very concerned about the education for the fact that getting a university degree will become too expensive. If a formal education because too expensive, our teachers our only going to come from an increasingly narrow social bracket.
Congrats! I am going to consider elements of homeschooling for my child as well. Society would be better off if there were more of you trying alternative things. As long as homeschooling is done for the right reasons, I have no doubt that it can be a powerful experience - especially if we value and wish to model life-long learning.
My main complaint are those who feel the need to repeatedly attack the public school system to support an unschooling arguments. The public schooling system is not meeting the needs of all children. However, attacking it out of frustration does not move society forward.
Linden
7 years ago
I agree with you here. Of course that pretty much covers my view of daycare. I see so many people who have kids and then pop them into preschool, kindergarten, school, after-school daycare, etc. I didn't have kids so someone else could raise them.
However, as much as I don't agree with it, I have to accept that everyone has their own way of doing things, and their own idea of what's right. I've certainly run into many people who think I'm doing the wrong thing by homeschooling! ;o) I'll tell people about homeschooling if they're interested, but I never try to talk anyone into it.
Agreed. But be prepared. If you decide to homeschool your child(ren) you'll be subject to the same type of attack. People will accuse you of ruining your children's lives. Members of your family may turn against you. People in stores will accost you during the day and demand to know why your kids aren't in school, and when you explain, they'll give you the 3rd degree. You'll become very cautious who you tell. You need a pretty thick skin!
You may object to the attacks you hear from unschoolers against public school, but you'll put up with many more against you. Intolerance works both ways.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
Yes, Linden, but the rude behaviour you experience when busybodies don't mind their own business, is annoying and an inconvenience. The attack on the public school system has potentially dire consequences for many children and society.
Perhaps the homeschool movement has been manipulated and appropriate for those who want the voucher system and the ending of all public services. It looks that way from Gatto's website and other types of articles I've found on the web during the last few days.
Probably, most of us can agree that all children deserve safety, opportunity and the sense that their community cares about them.
Travis's article about the voucher system says it very well, when they talk about real choice being real options for everyone.
redrivergirl
7 years ago
appropriated... (my keyboard is sticking)manipulated by...not for
Wallace
7 years ago
Shame on you SharingisGood, for trying to take elliot to task for his attacks on the public system.
Don't you know that little elliot is a self-made man? Little elliot is uniquely positioned to offer his opinion on the damaging effects of public education, and the draedful effect unions have had on our society.
Little elliot has made his way in life without the benefit of public education. He has also made a good life for his family without using public health. He makes a good living without the benefit of employment standards and decent health and safety conditions. He has done so well, that his mother, who never accessed public education for little elliot, nor public health care when little elliot was just a little tyke, has also managed to retire without burdening the public purse by claiming CPP or OAP.
Little elliot owes nothing to the public system or the progressive political and labour losers who put such a system in place. We need more like little elliot, to stop the drain on our social systems and thereby make the public system stronger. Thanks little elliot, your sacrifice is indeed warming.
Moat
7 years ago
redrivergirl wrote:
Quite possibly, Murdock's input earlier in the discussion is a good example of this.
Linden,
I do understand how someone can become defensive about such as decision. There is a stereotype that some homeschoolers are zealots of some type.
Homeschoolers and the public education can work together *gasp* with a team approach. It would be nice if the government gave enough flexibility with the curriculum to allow this. Imagine letting teachers act as consultants with the parents, sharing teaching and learning strategies. Or even helping parents gain further background knowledge so that they may better facilitate their childs' learning.
Of course the dialogue has to remain open for this to happen. Let's keep it open, and be willing to be challenged (and even insulted) at times.
Hey, we can poke fun at each other sometimes, eh?
As long as we have a common goal.
Elliot
7 years ago
hey wally-boy; (god i love that name!) you're becoming obsessed with me man. you really do need to get a life. i'd make assumptions about what you do with your time but i'm not sure you could handle the trauma. btw; anyone who can look at our 'education' system objectively and has half a brain knows that it's a big bloody joke and is getting worse as the bctf gains more control of the agenda. the classroom is the wrong place for social engineering experiments that you lefties love so much. you all need to learn to mind your own business. the brilliant jinny sims has been spending most of her time lately telling british columbians that the system is a mess. next she'll complain that too many parents are pulling their kids out in favour of the private system. what a scream. the teachers that accept her word as gospel are nothing but simple lemmings who may be whining their way out of a very cushy job. talk to ya' later pal.
murdock
7 years ago
Thank you for the understanding Moat, in that all I was putting forward was a starting point for further discussion. I am used to the tomatoes and eggs thrown after I use that evil 'voucher' word.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
Thanks for the chuckle, Wallace.
And, Elliot, our school system in BC, for all of its mounting problems, is still one of the very best in the world. After all, for the most part, we have teachers teaching who have been educated in BC. The bottom line is that we want an inclusive system, and the constitution backs up the need for inclusion - in most cases (as long as students can remain safe). Schools are much better than in past generations; however, 5 years of reductions in funding toward issues/programs related to poverty and equal opportunity have resulted in increased numbers of poverty-stricken children, violence, and crime. Reductions in proven counselling services/therapy to help criminals learn to change their behaviours have also resulted in greater numbers of criminal activities, and hence, victims. Victims of violence also require aid, but assistance for these people has been cut back too, as have school counsellors. If a child has parents who are victims or are criminals, there is an unequal chance of his or her doing as well as his or her peers. These are proven facts. The hardline approach as adopted by the USA does nothing to help their crime rate. It takes generations of concerted effort to transform communities that are "down and out". Short term economic gains for some at the expense of others does nothing to help our society remain a safe and peaceful - world class place to live.
At this time, when the BC government is receiving record windfalls from American demands for lumber and energy, we are still seeing the rich getting richer and the poor having less - the gap is widening. Do multimillionaires and billionaires really want to have epitaphs that read, "I was a greedy S.O.B. and proud of it"? We all learned in kindergarten that sharing is good, didn't we.
It seems many people are wanting not to share, maybe they forgot what they learnt in kindergarten or were private schooled. They are wanting to have segregated private and home schooled social groups. They don't actually want to be part of the solution by helping their community schools and their communities become stronger, do they? They don't actually want to volunteer in their public schools or encourage/pressure the government to reduce class sizes etc. Objectivism does not make the world a better place, but sharing, caring, and loving do. Jinny Simms is not saying anything differently now than she said 2 months ago because nothing has yet changed. The government has done nothing, yet, though some funding is said to be coming at some point.
Linden
7 years ago
SharingIsGood said...
What a silly argument. If you're not with us you're against us? Nonsense. Does that mean if I didn't spend thousands on Christmas presents for my kids this year I'm a traitor for not supporting the Canadian economy?
As a homeschooler I am helping the schools. First of all my tax dollars go to support public schools. Secondly, when I register with the local school board every year the Ministry pays them half of whatever they get for a student attending school, which is somewhere between $6000 and $7,000 I believe. That's bonus money for them, because they are not obligated to provide me with anything. On top of that, my kids aren't adding to the classroom crowding we hear so much about.
Am I going to sacrifice my kids to the system while working to "make it better"? Not a chance. People have been working on that for years with little progress. My kids will have graduated long before there's any noticeable improvement in the education system.
If you want parents volunteering in the schools, why not ask the ones who have kids in school? If they cared enough you'd be overrun with volunteers.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
"If you want parents volunteering in the schools, why not ask the ones who have kids in school? If they cared enough you'd be overrun with volunteers."
Exactly, Linden, They have been asked and I am asking you, now. The Parent Advisory Councils are typically very small, their meetings poorly attended. So, here you are, a parent who cares, and I am (maybe wrongly) assuming that you too are not helping the public school. If you had your way, would you not want half of the funding attached to your child go to the public school? Even if your child attends but one or two courses (like you mentioned that many home-schoolers do) and receives instructional materials, somebody must put that stuff together. A part-time student generally needs many extra administrative and teacher interactions per hour of instructional time. The part-time student is an anomaly and must be counted and administered as such - this takes time and resources. People must be watching for comings and goings, dayplans must be built around those times when the part-timer is in school. This leaves less flexibility for the other kids and being able to teach to the moment, etc. Why is it that teachers are normally the people who must volunteer if the children are to have school-based extra-curricular activities? Where are all of the parents for teams and clubs? When they do show up, why do they generally expect teachers to do the organising? If you truly are a parent who cares, don't you want to help improve society for all children, so that your child can live in a safer, kinder world. Get on board, be part part of the community. Submit to a criminal records check and help your local school. Put together a bulletin board. Wash the computer keyboards. Organise a playgound litter pickup. Bring healthy snacks. Help with a kind and optimistic heart as negativity breeds more negativity. And if you are doing these things already, I most humbly thank you.
Linden
7 years ago
SharingIsGood said...
Hopefully you listen to your students better than this. I already said half my funding DOES go to the public schools.
My children do not go to school part-time. I do know of a couple of homeschoolers whose children do, but they're few and far between. The majority of us do not make use of school facilities or teachers, and we receive no funding ourselves.
As I said, if you want volunteers at school, talk to the parents of the kids who attend the school.
Of course. I just don't believe having every child in public school is the answer. Certainly the majority of kids have attended/are attending public school, and apparently there's still room for improvement to society.
We (our family) do lots of volunteer work for our community - it doesn't have to be done through the schools. There is a world outside the classroom.
Wallace
7 years ago
Want me off your back little elliot? Try to stop deflecting and answer the questions raised in response to your own posts. Stop dumping on the good things that our leftie society has built, when whatever success you have was built on a foundation of Canada's social structure. For those who did not see earlier little elliot postings, here is the one that little elliot can't get past:
"i was born in the east end many years ago in a very poor neighbourhood. no money, no car, single working mom, the works. do you think i've used that as an excuse to suck off the hind teat of government for the rest of my life? today i make a very healthy living and support a wonderful family. didn't take help from anyone and felt very good about doing it myself. before you dismiss me think about it b/c it's true and it happens every day. quit making excuses for people, you're doing them no good by spouting your leftist blather. your type spends their time telling people they have every right to fail and as long as they believe that they will."
After reading little elliot time and again attack
Wallace
7 years ago
After reading little elliot time and again attack THE LEFT, I sent this along:
"But, you say you didn't take help from anyone? How about your Mom? Seems she managed to instill in you a sense of self. Oh yah, how about the public school system that provided the readin' and writin' and enough of an education to enable you to succeed? But wait, that would mean thanking those lefty teachers. Can't do that. How about health care? I have a suspicion that regular health care had a part in your development. But wait, that means thanking Tommy Douglas. Can't do that either. I don't know your vintage Elliot, but I remember the days when a visit to the Doctor or Dentist meant paying a bill, so that meant few trips to the Doctor or Dentist, even when needed. And, I'm pretty sure that minimum wages laws, health and safety standards in the workplace, paid vacations and statutory holidays have nothing to do with your comfort level. Because hey, ah crap, to accept that would mean having to thank the trade union movement. We surely cannot do that. Mom or Gramma on a pension now Elliot? Old age security? Prescription drug coverage? Perhaps living in assisted care? It really is too easy to point out that none of us, successful or otherwise, has done it, or is doing it alone. What is easy to point out is the evident hypocrisy in knee jerk responses to complex problems."
I have asked little elliot to respond a couple of times as to whether his success is built on our social structure, but his response is usually this:
"Wallace: You're a blowhard."
Answer the question little elliot, and maybe I will get off your back.
Merry Christmas.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
Hello Linden,
I did understand you the first time when I read that half of the funding does go to the public school. I do listen to my students. My question was, "If you had your way, would you not want half of the funding attached to your child [to] go to the public school?" I did not ask if it were already going as I understood it to be so.
Linden, I grew up in the heart of republican capitalism within an ultra-right wing conservative family that proudly traces its red, white and blue U.S. roots back to the Mayflower. I understand objectivism clearly from the inside. I understand that the heart of objectivism is Darwinism - survival of the fittest. Science has moved on since Darwin, as it has been able to ascertain that usually, it means survival of the luckiest. I understand that objectivists believe that they make their own luck. I don't believe that over time it will be lucky for humans to be so competitive and hell-bent on consuming the resources of the planet.
I have lived in both systems, and I believe the system that BC has had (that the Liberals are doing their best to destroy) is far superior to that American system. For all of their claims to being a "Christian" nation, they do their best not to follow the words that have been ascribed to Christ. Now, I am not saying that I have any religious preferences, but I do say that I have a moral/philosophical belief that sharing is good, greed is not good. Sure compete on an atheletic field, but work together to ensure all of humanity is fed, and loved and kept warm. There is a growing body of research that shows that trauma (in any of its forms can and often does cause irreparable damage to the human mind/body). Not everyone is resilient like you and your mother. No amount of telling many people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps will help them overcome their past/psycho-social self. Blame does not work to change people towards becoming strong and whole - caring does. Pulling works far better than pushing. This is what is true for most of the people who are poor. Desperate people do desperate things. Disparate societies help create desperate people. Sharing is good.
Linden
7 years ago
.
?????
Can't recall bringing my mother into the conversation.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
You are right Linden, that 3rd paragraph was meant for Elliot. Upon reflection, I believe that the last two paragraphs were meant mostly for him. Merry Christmas.
Elliot
7 years ago
SocialismIsGood; at this juncture, with only 6 days left in the year, it looks like you'll win the 'blather of the year' award for that last pathetic soliloquy. good on ya'! wally-boy wins the 'wally of the year' award, the 'bad name' award, and the 'makes absolutely no sense with any of his posts' award, but yours is the most coveted. happy new year.
Wallace
7 years ago
The Consistency Award of the Year goes to little elliot. Consistently deflecting and dodging the question, eh little elliot? The question is simple, did Canada's social supports enable you, little elliot, to succeed in life?
Let me answer the question for you.
I, little elliot attest to the following:
Yes, public schooling and public health care played a role in my success and;
Yes, employment and workplace standards allow me a level of comfort that three-quarters of the world envy, and finally;
Yes, all this is due to the commitment of lefties who believe in social responsibility to others and act politically to raise the bar for everyone.
There little elliot, simple wasn't it? I wish you continued success in the New Year little elliot. Now, let's see if we can work on why you are so angry with your sucess.
Zee
7 years ago
SharingIsGood,
When my children went to public school I spent those years on the PAC. I set up hotlunch days, did Sports day, turkey lunch, FAS evaluation of school, and accreditation planning for the school etc. I even spent my days off in the classrooms, some while they were public schooled because the teachers scowled when a parent stayed to help in the class, but weekly (2 days/week) in the private school. I helped in my childrens classes, I helped in other childrens classes, and I shelved books in the Library.
I just wonder why? Now that my children are no longer a part of those systems I would go out of my way take me and my time away from my children for the school? I did my share/ more than my share when they were in school.
But that is not the only place to help society. School is not the be all end all of structuring societies children. I have been a Scout leader, first Beavers now Cubs, for 5 years and my husband is too. This is volunteer work. We do a lot with our Beavers/Cubs. I have been a part of the group committee (individual group) and the area committee (all groups in an area) for 5 years. I have been a part of or planned every major event (5 per year) for the area Beavers for 3 years, and now the Cubs for 2 years. This is not including the camps and events of our own group. In Scouting we do other community work as well. I have a great time with it and so do the kids, mine included. Scouting takes up a huge portion of our lives, as does our homeschool. We include Scouting in our homeschool.
Now dont anyone say that Scouting is exclusive to those who can afford it because that is crap. Scouting groups have funds set asside to help those who dont have the registration fee, and camps etc. All a person has to do is talk to one of the leaders and it will be dealt with. Many of these activities are like that. Just talk to someone in charge.
Elliot
7 years ago
wally-boy; you're wrong again dude. no wonder your parents named you wally. the fact is that i went to a private catholic school b/c my mother knew even back then that the public system was a complete bloody joke. as for the public health care system which is so self-righteously touted by the leftist idiotgentsia in this country; your beloved screwed-up antiquated system that we can't afford anymore has been ranked at 70th in the world by some studies. give it up. it doesn't work anymore. it needs to be changed!
btw; when you're in demand and can work anywhere you want you don't worry about workplace standards being regulated by the gov't much, but most lefties wouldn't know how that feels b/c you depend on big brother to do everything for you. try getting yourself some cajnoles wally-boy, you might surprise yourself and actually achieve something in your life.
Wallace
7 years ago
Finally, little elliot acutally engaged in some relevant discussion.
I happen to agree with you little elliot! I think our system needs some work. My point, was that when you were growing up (before you became a highly in demand worker that is) you had access to health care that is not available to much of the globe, and for upwards of 40 million American folks as well. We still have access to the public system, as it is rapidly being gutted by the right wing. The right wing wants to replace it with a private medical system using the excuse that the public system is falling apart. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And on the schooling front, good on your Mom for looking out for you. But, keep in mind, the education you received had to meet the provincial curriculum standard. So Big Brother had a hand in your educational development as well.
FYI, my little one spent three years in the catholic school system and you know what, the learning was neither better nor worse than the public system we are in now. Where we find a difference, is in the involvement of the parents (in either system). What is clear is that kids need their parents involved in education, in either system. What is also clear is that when kids struggle in school (public or private), if the parents are not able or willing to assist, those are the parents who cry the loudest about the teachers, and the teachers union, etc. etc.
And every study that I have read says the same thing, when class sizes go up, the attention a teacher needs to give to struggling students, special needs, and esl students (the numbers of which are going up), draws directly from the time needed by all the other students. Every study also notes that when government makes cuts in education, the delivery of that education suffers.
But somehow little elliot, you can't seem to find all those studies, prefering to vent whatever is at the centre of your internal anger at someone else. We can continue to work with you on that problem as I believe everyone has the capacity to learn. When they get enough attention, of course.
BTW, I am well situated but did send out my resume to three firms last month, scored three interviews. Let's see, if my math from elementary school holds up - that looks like 100%. So, join the in-demand crowd little elliot. There are as many, maybe more, high performers on the left as the right, from both the public and private educational sytems. And, we don't sell our souls to get there.
Elliot
7 years ago
give it up wally-boy, you're grasping at straws. it might be time for you to grow out of this lefty nonsense. good luck dude.
SharingIsGood
7 years ago
Zee, I am so glad to hear that you believe in sharing and helping. If it means anything, I commend you for contributing. A question for you: "What percentage of parents at your children's school attended the PAC meetings?"
Elliot: an addendum to my soliloquy (nice to read I have your ear: there is hope that you may grow to become kinder):
I wish you no harm, Elliot. In fact, I wish for you to have a life of peace and joy intermingled within times for self-reflection and giving. Perhaps reading today's article on the need to increase welfare payments will make sense to you. Poverty and violence go hand in hand. Violence begets trauma. Trauma often leads to aggression, defensiveness and/or dissociation. Aggression, defensiveness and dissociation lead to more violence, court dates, jail sentences, etc. etc. It is a vicious circle that can made smaller through kindness and sharing. Blaming and greed do not help these problems, nor do they help people treat one another better. School is one place where we attempt to help people learn to treat each other with kindness and respect. It takes more than 1 adult for every 20 students to achieve this; however, it is a place to start. Please support public education.
Certainly, the millionairs of this province can annually pay an additional 1% in property and capital gains taxes to feed, clothe and house the poor. After all, the majority of great wealth generally comes from the labour of others and inheritance of investment capital. Ownership of investment capital and real property does not constitute wealth creation. Once one's housing, clothing, health and food needs are covered because one owns a home and has a steady income from investment capital/property, it becomes quite easy to maintain that and amass more. Every new dollar collected or earned goes back into the investment pool. Giving up an additional 1% of that capital by the province's million/billionaires is not going to hurt their lifestyle, but it can go a long way toward reducing poverty and improving school. The money will get redistributed and most of it will eventually end back up in the hands of investors/capitalists anyway.
Wallace
7 years ago
Ah crap, just when I thought little elliot was finally going to join the discussion, and leave behind the flaming, he posts another meaningless waste of ones and twos. You never answer any points made little elliot, you just flame. You never offer reasons for your positions, nor any substance to support your arguments. I agree with SharingIs Good, you need some reflection. Whatever is eating your insides to cause all your anger needs a lot of work.