Elliot, I agree with you. Liberal arrogance exemplified.

Get ready for the next generation of trudeau- I agree he laid the foundation for most of what ails us but you can be sure that one of his offspring is waiting in the wings. The sad thing is that we here in BC will fall for it- the mainstream media will be gushing instead of asking pertinent questions and we will fall all over ourselves for trudeaumania the sequel.

this is just a very narrow interpretation of statistics.

to claim voters in bc are still voting to punish a dead guy seems asinine.

stats are for losers.

if we are still voting against trudeau, than voters are far more stupid than i already believe.

the truth is bc has been expoited and ignored by every pm from trudeau onward.

that is why they get minimal support here, i hope.

this time we are given the choice between 2.5 evils.

do we punish paul martin for his ignorance, cowardice, or lack of power, (pick one or more) with regards to the evils perpetrated by chretien? (damn right we should, but let's get chretien and his henchmen first).

do we reward stephen harper because of chretien? (absolutely not!)
should we punish harper because he is a lyin' brian protege? please, god, yes.

do we give jack layton the job? not likely, he does not deserve it.

so, here is another narrow view of some stats.

every pm hopeful has glaring faults.

two have zero experience.

two have grave unity issues within their parties.

they are not the same two.

let us all hope that this election is just a total waste of time amd money, and we end up with the same thing we have now, because at this point, the staatistics confirm - non of the contenders deserves to have a majority.

i only hope that every last one of them has a very cold, wet and extremely unpleasant campaign.

i've met justin a few times. nice guy but intellectually dudlike. i agree he's waiting in the wings, and the ontario idiots will buy him hook, line and sinker. not sure anyone else will though.

Let's somebody just phone up CanWest and ask who we will vote for. It'd save a lot of fuss and bother.

"i've met justin a few times. nice guy but intellectually dudlike"

So you consider yourself intellectually superior to Justin? I haven't seen it revealed here -- why are you holding out on us elliot?

Burner wrote:

...actually, this complaint goes right back to confederation.

It's amusing to observe the neoconservative wingnuts pile in here anytime the think they have the house to themselves. Like wilderness vandals who break into survival cabins to shit all over the place and stink it up for everyone else. :-)

They flee quickly enough though, at the approach of serious political and intellectual strength from the left. :-)

"Losers! Losers!", the yell, fleeing as fast as the can for the safety of the bush.

Elliot grunts and farts a bit, but can't really produce what the big boys do, just wind and imitating noises.

Looks like we're going to have to give the old place a good cleaning, to get rid of these primitive hairballs.

who has the time to waste more than just a few moments here and there on wingnut lefties?

Right, thanks for clearing that up for me, genius.

LOL, hey Coyote your right

Watch Elliot run for the Bushes after your post. LOL

63% of people know that.

that old curmudgeon's post was pedestrian, but at least he does have the odd worthwhile effort, unlike allan, wally and stuey-boy.

Whats this justin, a breaking news story just coming in on the wire. (joke)

The comment of Trudeau's Ghost haunting BC is very apt. For the same people have been running things (behind the government I am talking about the civil service that Trudeau managed to establish) since 1968.

With the current PM2 looking to get his kicks in before his best before date expires, we all shall have to wait another decade before those same civil servants (red or white Radwonski?) finally die out. Because we all should know that they will never be fired.

PM's since 1873 have considered BC as a drink to sip deeply from. So long as they do not tip the drink to far they will forever be able to take from BC (and Alberta with the NEP) and give nothing but hot air (read bad breath) back.

Hey, where is Working Man ? I thought he would be here defending his hero.

Former Social Credit staffer as is his history, and being more of the standard Southam style, major media hack, Will McMartin's analyses typically lack much depth and heft, even here in Tyee. (Which seems to favour this ilk of staff writer in any case. Mustn't appear too partisan.:-) Again, Will is more that old Bill "Bennetesque" Sr style of capitalism advocate; fast talk 'em, buy the masses off view of politics and the affairs of the nation, and keep talking in circles until the Great Unwashed are dizzy from trying to keep up. (It's out of date in the new Neoconservative reality of course, so which, comparatively, is his thin thread, stone soup progressive claim to fame, that he "seems" to have for some.)

Now that I've thoroughly dismissed him :-), he is actually much right in his analysis here, not that it's rocket science, or isn't already entirely obvious to just about anyone paying the slightest attention at all to the nations politics. Disregarding ancient Trudeau history, for I think that part of McMartin's analysis plays out very little, here in the material world, still Paul Martin has been cagier than one might first suspect coming to this election out of an alliance with the NDP.

For what I think he quite possibly correctly realizes, certainly made clear enough when he got his CAW jacket from Hargrove, is that one of the unintended outcomes of Lamb Layton lying down with the Liberal Lion has turned out to be that, it has helped make crystal clear to one and all that the NDP has in fact moved so far right policy and style wise, that they really are for all intents and purposes-, no bloody different. The lamb is about to be consumed, save for some tidbits accidently brushed from the feasting table, by the lion. At least that much is at serious risk coming out of the gate here.

I'm just guessing of course, much influenced by conversation with family, friends and persons about the community, but I think it is suddenly clear enough to even Joe and Jane Average that there is not significant enough difference between the Liberals and the NDP to get all worked up about, or certainly influence your vote.

In short, McMartin has merely observed that the inevitable, given the course the NDP has been on for awhile, has happened sooner rather than later.

We hear it here even, in a number of long time, nothing but NDP voters having concluded that this time, they are prepared to as quickly vote Liberal as NDP. And who can blame them.

Which is what trap the wimp ass, long history of electoral opportunism NDP leadership has finally fallen into. They have finally succeeded at moving far enough right to be mistaken for Liberals. And if that is the case, there is nothing that the NDP can offer that the Liberals are not as likely and more able to deliver, with a better grasp on the levers of capitalism and more intimate inter-connectedness with the ruling economic group that is more likely to say, "Yes.", just to save their Liberal friends asses. (Better the Devil you know.)

My God! The Liberals are even about to, for the first time since Trudeau, emerge over the NDP even, as the saviours of the Nation from US imperialism. (Not really, of course, but you know what I mean-, play the card.) They have the flag of "bourgeois" nationalism even, raised to the height of the yardarm.,

Again the NDP comes off with too little too late, and a brick short of a load. Pathetic.

They have misread the need of the nation by about as much as it is actually possible.

Which doesn't mean that there is still not a need for the emergence of a "serious left" alternative. 'Cause there sure as hell is, which should become more obvious here, in fairly short order. (Fewer years rather than more.)

BC Mary said Let's somebody just phone up CanWest and ask who we will vote for. It'd save a lot of fuss and bother.
My God ,BN.C Mary you have figured it out. But let's let the experts check a few entrails and do just as you suggest.

If Can West supported someone I was going to vote for( which I sort of doubt I'd change my intent and vote for the person with the least chance of winning.

I failed to make clear what I see as the most serious danger in all this: You will only get a "relatively" progressive Liberal government here, out of this election, if it is a "minority" government,and unable to do its complete corporate backers will. Which means that like the last parliament, there will have to be the NDP with a sufficient number of seats to complete the Liberal hold on government. (The danger there being even, that they and their corporate friends will decide they prefer a German style Grand Alliance with the Conservatives. Not a small danger.)

But, even though I am unimpressed with the NDP, should that minority Liberal government not emerge, but rather a majority, you will get a quite different Liberal government, one that will resume its drift to the "right", in the direction of the Conservatives.

The greatest danger here is, a "majority" government of ANY party. Not in these neoconservatives times, and with those kinds of pressures out there in "the system" and the world.

The mantra has to be that, "Minority governments are good. Majority governments are bad."

For now at least. Until there is a "serious Left" alternative out there anyway, at work in the economy and on the street, AND in the electoral process. :-) My view.

This just on CBC.... Coyote is last "serious left" person on planet. Paul Martin and Stephen Harper celebrate with toast delivered by Jack Layton. Green party leader not invited.

These debates are a sham, just blather and now, no one liners!

W@hy is the French debate here? Like no one local gives a damn about that one. As for the Liberals or the Natural Ruling Party, treat BC like a fiefdom, with a few baubles thrown here and there, mainly as pork barrels for the party faithful.

The only way to go is to seperate, just like Quebec, but there is no credible party for BC, so Green goes my vote!

The NDP has had a "priority" claim to the "serious left" for a long time now, largely subservient to the adherents of "right of centre" social democrats who have controlled the party through the post war "Prosperity Period", now coming to an end with the rise of the Neoconservative Capitalism proponents, since the time of Tommy Douglas. This period of "serious left subservience", even coming out of this next election, is about to come to an end, I think and hope. :-)

I say this because I suspect, and again, hope that the NDP is about to be absorbed into the Liberal Party, sooner rather than later. It's been coming on for a long time actually-, again since Douglas, but especially since the 80s and the ascendancy of the Neocon period. Once that occurs and/or the NDP splits on the eve of the Great Absorption, the "serious left" will then have to see what its really got and make some tough choices, plus what may occur by way of people such as myself, who may then begin to come out of the woodwork, where they've been hiding for awhile now, riding the period out. That, presuming I am right, then becomes the new starting point for the rise of my, granted, to here mythical "serious left".

And indeed, though I think y'all looney toon wingers may be surprised, that we are at least as numerous as thee-, who are also largely a held at bay "rump" faction where e're you are rooted as well; Liberal, Conservative or Reform. :-) (No illusions either way in my eyes, Dude.)

Anyway, we shall see. And the worst that can be for me, barring a blatant rise of naked fascism, is I remain in the woodwork and concede that The Great Awakening is more likely to occur outside the frame of my limited time left on the planet.

Which doesn't mean there still aren't beautiful women, the green, green world of nature, my family, many things I love to do, and a wee nip of a fine whiskey every now and again. :-)

I can take it. Can you? :-D

There are certainly worse choices than Green, no doubt. Say Conservative. You'll not hear me say a word against it this time. :-)

I'm still weighing my options. We've got this damned pesky long time sitting Conservative. And he's a charmer. Most dangerous kind. :-)

I'm leaning to doing nothing and just letting what will be, be. It goes against all my natural instincts though. But it makes just about as much sense as voting either Liberal or NDP.

#$razzlefrats %&*!!+ :-D

Woody, good one on "Just-in" being a news story, but I've got another one: "beware of geeks bearing myths." Or: "thirty-year absent Frumian-Trojan parachuted into Etobicoke Lakeshore". I'm talking about Michael Ignatieff, you guys, and I'm asking you to read his June 26, 2005 article entitled, "Who are Americans To Think That Freedom Is Theirs To Spread". This guy is highly touted to become Canada's next Prime Minister, eh. You can get the article by googling that Machievellian title.

A well written piece of propaganda no doubt, Truman. But you know the assumption it "tends" to make, don't you?

I don't see how you could not.

That US freedom is, in fact, something pure and noble enough to actually export by force of arms to the savages of the world, like the Germanic belief in Aryan superiority, rather than to leave folks to discover their own-, if they can.

And some may never, I concede.

I think this article is actually a really dangerous piece of ideology, hidden behind the soothing tones of what "sounds like" reason. (The best, most fascistic ideologies do, in fact, sound like the essence of sweet reason-, of a type. Hitler and Lenin both had "the talent", though the latter even more than the former, in my current view. And I was a Leninist at one time.) I think the man is a really dangerous, even "messianic" in the "coolest" most intellectual and yet "religious" US fascist tradition, capable of justifying to itself almost any crime against humanity.

I'd be interested to hear a detailed response, as to what you, yourself think of it.

Spooky. Spooky is the word I would use to describe the guy's effect . It put the hair up on the back of my neck. Scary.

Coyote, right on. You got it. I knew you would. I just wanted to warn everybody about this disgusting man. This is some of the nastiest intellectual trickery I've ever read. But I'm not going to really get into it because I hope everyone will study this guy for themselves.

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/ksgnews/Features/opeds/062605_ignatieff.htm

Here is the web site Truman Green speaks of, for those who might otherwise have difficulty.

Agree with Will to some extent but I feel that since the last election the anger towards the Federal Liberals is at last disipating. IN fact, I'd say that B.C.ers are now realizing that we're actually FINALLY getting our fair share from Confederation after decades of being neglected. Look at the Rupert port expansion money, the RAV line monies, money going to the pine beetle problem and the tough stand of softwood lumber. I think Martin is one of the first Liberal PM's to actually wake up and listen to us here in B.C. Even in rural B.C., this is being noticed. The CPC right now is no longer the anti establishment protest party that Manning's Reform party once was and so is not seen as so in touch with British Columbians - rather it is seen as being in touch with Albertans. Ditto the NDP - causing the government to fall was not what most B.C.'ers wanted. Even Chuck Cadman, the ultimate populist, voted with the Federal Liberals last summer - so I see nothing but opportunities for the Liberals to grow in B.C. I think we are going back to 1950' and 1960's when Liberal was not a dirty word here.

I have to say this article was pretty dull. All McMartin has done is regurgitate statistics and spoonfeed us his interpretation. There is nothing new here of interest.

here's a typical liberal move: when the pet died chretien intended to rename mount logan after him, but he had to change his mind after being lambasted by westerners, and rightly so. now the libs have very quietly named a b.c. mountain (near blue river, i believe) after this pm who showed such incredible disdain for the west. it was a done deal before anyone knew anything about it. perfectly par for the course for the most subversive and corrupt gov't this country has ever seen, bar none. how could anyone even consider voting for these crooks?

Northgay, The Fiberal Party of Canada is a very dirty word here. What have they ever been to British Columbians ?
Nothing. BC has rightfully supported political parties that were home grown.
What could The Liberal Party of Canada (l's)
have over The Social Credit Party , led by the Bennett family. The NDP headed by Dave Barrett, Mike Harcourt and Glen Clark and the Libral Party of BC led by Gordon Campbell.
They are aliens, the same as the NDP Toronto Party ( ndpto's ).
Go away and don't come back anotherday.
Dirty word ? You bet.

trudeau was a joke and the history books will most certainly show that. liberal supporters are a bigger joke. only in canada could you elect a man who, during WWII, rode a motorcycle around montreal in a german uniform with a swastika on his back. what do you silly socialists think about that one?

Besides making me ill, reading the name Trudeau so many times reminds me of my favourite quote about him...

"In Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Canada has at last produced a political leader worthy of assassination." - Irving Layton

Trudeau was perhaps the single worst thing to happen to Canada, from the erosion of our military to the charter of rights that protects criminals.

He is definately one of the many reasons I never have and never will vote Liberano in this or any election.

Coyote
Despite your labelling me as a right wing neo-con, I used to vote exclusively for the NDP and come from a strong NDP family (dad was an MLA in 67) In fact most of the rank in file of the army used to vote NDP many years ago.

I agree that the Federal NDP is adrift and I must admit that I chuckled at your description of Lamb Layton. I personally think the NDP has not drifted so much right as it has drifted from it’s roots. They are interested entirely in the Urban vote and ignore rural Canada. Most people that used to vote NDP no longer trust them and a few I know vote Green, but mainly in the rural areas where the Greens are more in touch with reality.

Oh yes, that terrible guy Trudeau. Imagine legislating laws to enact such a concept as a 'just society'. What a terrible goal. That people should be equal and that we are an egalitarian and tolerant society? Never.

Imagine a prime minister who wanted more for Canada than being our Southern neigbhour's diminitive wife.

Imagine a cultured and intelligent leader who possessed enough courage to defy the ordinary and the most mundane in our little back woods!

Good grief, you guys.

And, Martin is no Trudeau. I'll be voting NDP.

diminutive...

If Trudeau was leading the Liberals I wouldn't have a second thought about casting my vote Liberally (and I actually found Chretien charmingly amusing - especially when communicating with the leaders of the ethically-challenged U.S, who don't seem to understand the concept of a conscience) - but Martin doesn't scream character. However, after watching the debates, I'm not sure who does. Frankly, I rather have been blasted with a couple of "sponsorship scandals" (imagine, the worst our 'corrupt' gov't can do is buy love with tax-payer money - think of it as a reinvestment) - rather than sending our citizens to kill others around the world for the sake of pleasing our gluttonous neighbours to the south. That would have cost us not only money, but lives and moral character. I have little doubt that this betrayal would have been the case had the CRAP party been at the thrown. Despite not spending all our money on the military, I feel safer in a nation that doesn't offend than one that goes around spitting their ill will on prospective "enemies". Aye, I'm rolling down the same river as the redrivergirl (and the articulate canine, coyote).

Avicenna says, If Trudeau was leading the Liberals I wouldn't have a second thought about casting my vote Liberally and I actually found Chretien charmingly amusing,
This can't be, True Dough.

elliot:

Considering it was the Nazi symp. DuPlessis in power at the time, what would you do.....?

Coyote:

So you are saying that entropy will meld both the left and the right into a homogenous bowl of jello..........?

great retort rickw. he did it because he felt pressured into doing so by duplessis. excellent logic. what are you a b.c. teacher or something?

Trudeau's ghost haunts Canada. A leader, a man with a vision and an astonishing intellect.

Love him or hate him, Trudeau was one of our country's greatest Canadians and during his extensive stint as Prime Minister, Trudeau brought out country onto the International stage out of its infancy; he brought us our Constitution, with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms giving the Judiciary the ability to stand up for each and every Canadian.

He also brought us quite a bit of debt, which in modern times seems out of place and offensive, but at the time was deemed an appropriate strategy for nation building. (Let's not forget that Mulroney made it far worse.) He embraced our bilingual nature, and refused to capitulate to Quebec even while he stood up for the rights of its citizens as equally as others. The National Energy Plan was good for the country, and the wests attitude of abadonment in its face is as short sighted as our joy in the current economic boom that has been caused by skyrocketing resource prices.

Trudeau was a key player in moulding Canada into a full nation, not the bastard child of Great Britain or a lesser cousin to the United States. Rather, a proud country with a unique place in the world, and one with its own rich history.

Trudeau's ghost haunts our country, not just the Liberals in B.C. Each and every one of the current leaders pales in comparison, with no apparent vision for our country, and an inability to communicate what little they may have to the electorate.

Love him or hate him, you couldn't ignore the man. He inspired me as a young boy to love my country, to get out and paddle the waters of its lakes and oceans in a canoe; to learn about its history; to respect the diversity that other cultures bring to our society; to proudly walk through the world as a Canadian.

Thanks, elliot! Try living under a virtual dictator and see what you would do to comprimise your ideals............

And while I agree with most everything that darcy.mcgee points out, we must'nt forget that Trudeau was a self-proclaimed continentalist....

I never voted for Trudeau but I think he was a man who knew who he was. A really important quality and one that is missing in so many leaders today.

That's why he understood the necessity for Canada to have its own identity as well.

With him, what you saw was what you got... the pirouettes, the finger, the "just watch me", the intensity and the passion, the love for this country and for other cultures as well. He knew what he valued and he didn't come heavily scripted like most politicians of today.

For once Elliot and I are in agreement.

Trudeau is history, might as well vote Republican because you like Abe Lincoln.

But the current Liberal gov't is corrupt and being as I got this thing against corrupt politicians I'll continue to argue for anyone-but-Liberal.

"So you are saying that entropy will meld both the left and the right into a homogenous bowl of jello..........?"

I'm saying the NDP isn't really "Left". It's already part of the centrist "bowl of jello."

When we are talking Canadian politics today, at least in that stretch of it that dominates and controls the electoral process, we are talking miniscule differences here, especially between the Liberals and Conservatives, marginally greater degrees when considering the Conservatives.

The degree to which the NDP is left, is the degree to which it's little toe is over the centre line. Just right of the centre line are the Liberals. Further out there on the right, wanting to go completely wingy-ding neoconazi, but afraid no one at all will vote for them, are the Harper Conservatives, in the election trying to draw as close to the centre-right Liberals themselves, as close as they can.

It's what makes Canadian politics, in a deteriorating economic situation for, at least, the working class, and the "national survival" of the Canadian nation rapidly sliding South, such a "bowl of jello" inadequacy.

It's the pickle any serious progressive or radical is in right now, concerned about the independence of the nation and "serious" democratic social transformation. Your choices are all "right and righter", running alongside "dum and dummer".

It's why I don't blame any progressive or left radical person for however they vote this go round. It's really slim pickings out there on the "what passes for" Democracy Tree. I mean, blindfold yourself and play Pin The Tail on The Donkey, fer phuck's sake. The odds are your choice is gonna be as close as mine in the final outcome. It's like ejaculating your load into the rafters, and because it swings from the rafters, thinking maybe it's gonna be a trapeze artist when it grows up.

That second paragraph above should actually read, "...especially between the Liberals and New Democrats...".

Taking a break for other things over the next few days. Ta, ta.

And I was thinking of the "barn rafters" when I wrote that last line. :-) I was feeling poetic.

Abadabathrwpppppp.

a review of your last posts indicates that you've been dipping into the dandelion wine again coyote. maybe you should save the blather for your drinking buddies. i especially liked your references to wwII germany on the other thread. so typical of you and all the other desperate lefties who have such a problem justifying your ridiculous ideologies. fear-mongering is king, whether it makes any logical or historical sense is beside the point. when bereft of real ideas, as most of you are, just mention hitler and the nazis. it's amazing to see so many people insulting their own intelligence here, and really quite amusing too.

When you get back, Coyote:

It's this very working class that gets the bejeebers scared out of them when they go to the polls, and end up voting "anything but NDP". So, if you want the NDP to move further left, it would be moving further away from any voter support. The working class WANTS everything the NDP proposes, but it wants these policies to be implemented by the Libs and Cons. Go figure!

The NDP must go Left, or lose its basic support. It takes courage and guts and stamina. About all things, Coyote is correct. McMartin did a rather shallow interpretation of mere stats. I think among the youth, Trudeau is seen as someone who got Canada on the world stage. He had faith his countrymen and women. Diefenbaker had none and blew the Avro Arrow and all those jobs away, just to please his American overlords. Mulroney gave away Air Canada, CNR to the uSA and see how well that turned out---NOT! What will his descendent Harper do for the Yanks? Campbell and Klein have done enough for them already. But braindead people who lack critical thought, and haven't read a damn thing other than the Black-Asper newspapers or its magazines (or watched its TV), think they actually have a valid viewpoint. Alas, they have the vote, too:*(

'Trudeau is seen as someone who got Canada on the world stage. He had faith his countrymen and women.' thanks for the hearty laugh marysue. hopefully you're jesting. if not you have just lost all credibility. the pet was the most arrogant snob we've ever had in office and he trusted no one, not even his 'right hand man' chretien, who is too stupid to be arrogant. those two clowns ran the country 26 out of 35 years. no wonder we're a big bloody joke.

Why would anyone want to waste time talking about Trudeau and his time in office?
We have one thing to concern ourselves with:
1 - How are we going to heat our homes and business when oil reach 5 dollars a liter?
2 - What are the candidates doing to prevent an energy debacle and decrease the suffering they have created for the folks that produce the wealth of this country and pay the taxes that provide corporations with an eternal(free) line of credit?
3 - When are journalists going to write about the deficit in democracy that alows a jerk like Paul Martin to rip us off two ways: as businessman and as a PM?
4 - When are canadians going to demand a change in the constitution in order that we can vote independent candidates easily to run for the PM office?
5 - What candidate is willing to stop the bushites from coming in and take any resource they want from Canada?

ok wellherewegoagain, here are my thought of answers:

1-good ole wood fires like before oil (with all the ole woodsmoke)
2-nothing, until pushed into a corner (or better yet out of the way...)
3-because democracy is a dead-end, just like communism its fraternal-twin. Unlike communism which died in 1989 with the breaking of the berlin wall; democracy is taking longer to die and continues to get 'life support'
4-never, see #2 & #3 to understand
5-none, see #2 & #3 to understand.