Seems that both the NDP and the Liberals are really greedy, especially that Carole James who initially agreed most enthusiasically.

Creature James then had to retract her stupidity and inform her beleagered NDP rump that the glory days are not quite yet here.

Schreck in his stupidity failed to recognised that it takes two to tango.

The NDP are the rotten ones. No vision, no plan, just great whiners wanting more pay at the Leg@!

sdgreen,

The NDP are the rotten ones? Did we read the same article?

Excellent analysis, David.

Amazing how the Liberals have moved last weeks big story to the `old news catagory`. 700 children died. They needed something from their bag of tricks and they found one. I was surprised by Gordos public apology but it worked didn`t it. And Carole`s flip-flop? A clear message from the government. Yes we`re heartless b*stards but at least we`re not incompetent. This was a nail in Carole`s leadership hopes irregardless of spin. I`m disgusted.

Carole had better change her tune and quickly, if she is to retain her position. I can hear, even now, those knives aimed at her back.

Carole is so typical of what's wrong with government today, there is no public openness. Every MLA suffers from I'm better than yousyndrome. Just read animal farm.

There is so much out there to discredit Campbell>>>>>>>>>DO IT!!!

sdgreen: "The NDP are the rotten ones. No vision, no plan, just great whiners wanting more pay at the Leg@!"

If it wasn't for Carol James, I'm sure that Bill 17 would still be going through. I think we all need to thank Carol James for killing this thing. The biggest whiner is Mayencourt, and the whole "if you don't play by our rules we are going to take our ball and go home" thing by Gordon Campbell is childish. If it was a good idea to raise MLA pay, give them a pension, and increase money for offices then why isn't it now? It's not like he needs or seeks unanimous support for anything else he does in the Legislature. No, the rot can clearly be smelled on the governement side of the legislature.

Right on David! What is this nonsense about Bi-partisanship, and two to tango? When a person or group f's up, he/she/they admits error and pays the piper. That the Lieberals should feel hard done by and double-crossed just boggles my mind. The time for a Bill 17 would be weeks before the next election to encourage quality candidates to come forward.
65% of the best 3 years would be to die for. Gordco are setting themselves up for the silver lining. Poor Lorne will never be vested, so we'll see more pouting from him.
Bi-partisanship is an oxy-moron that comes to us from south of the border. Check partisan in your dictionary.
Democracy is a 24/7 exercise.

I'm baffled as to why Gordon Campbell should expect to be paid like the highest percentile of CEO's. He's not a CEO. And most CEO's of small companies make less than he does.

I don't understand paying provincial MLA's like federal MLA's. They're not. Imagine the public outcry if teachers expressed the desire to be paid as administrators are.

Why are public servants of all stripes, not given the same raise? There is always someone who earns more, the cost of living increases for all, why the disparity?

Cover inflation for all. The -15 for you and +15 for you is only funny on Seinfeld when it's the soup nazi. This isn't soup!

sdgreen wrote:

Creature James then had to retract her stupidity and inform her beleagered NDP rump that the glory days are not quite yet here.

While I am very disappointed with the NDPs performance on this issue, I am amazed that the NDP is really getting beaten in the media over this. It was not James that proposed this raise, was it?

Clever spin in the media, but not by the NDP. The NDP will never rise again if they cannot learn how to "spin".

They have missed so many opportunities to hammer the liberals.

And is that annoying Adrian Carr still around? I think she took a swipe at the NDP as well yesterday.

Funny how the Greens are content to make it possible for the Liberals to continue to be in power and have free reign on our natural resources.

No Carr-sdgreen connection? *jk*

What occurs to me is: Who did you think these people are--people of integrity, or something? An honourable, idealistic person could never make it to the level of councillor in a small town. A very rare shaft of light has been cast over our MLAs, but there's no good reason to think they're any worse than politicians on any other level. Generally speaking, politicans are the most opportunistic, devious, Machievellian members of our society--except for Tommy Douglas and Patrice Lumumba, of course.

Isn't Lorne a discharged bankrupt?

The Liberals have obscured the issue once again. The morning after the first bill was passed the media wanted to talk about how sneaky and unfair the process was.

Today, much of the the media (or maybe it's just the commentators) are talking about what's "fair" compensation for MLA's. Somehow the Liberals have turned the public into the bad guys on this, because we would deny them their fair pay.

I don't begrudge the MLA's more money, but then I never begrudged HEU members, teachers and other public sector unions more money. I, like and many on the left (and some honest one's on the right) have said all along this was about the process.

Mayencourt, while honest, doesn't get it. If you feel the same as I do, email him until he does.

"MLA's need a pay scale that will attract the best candidates"; isn't that the quote. Good thing we don't need doctors who know how to diagnosis a disease; or teachers who can read and write; or nurses who know how to operate an IV pump. Otherwise we'd have to pay them what they're worth.

The Liberals have also been successful in getting their mishandling of the 713 Children's deaths off the media's radar. Really, this shouldn't be another article about the whole pay raise mess, it should be about Liberal cost cutting ineptitude.

Carole blew it folks, the Liberals were under fire over cut backs and negligence and over 700 kids deaths not being investigated due to their incompetence and cutbacks. Not that's of the radar and Carole looks insincere, she really blew this one as did all the other MLA's

As far as Lorne , he has always been a sideshow, to hear him speak so passionately and aggressively one would think he is really down and out. I was ready to call 911 and have him arrested under the safe ledge act for begging in the house. Remember this is the same guy who chased a homeless person half
way accross town for begging. The guys a bonehead,

pump it up schreck! and pine for the days when your guys turned this province into a have-not. the ndp blew it big-time! all ground that they may have gained since may has been lost. good luck in the future!

What if gordo phoned k roafe for advise?

gordo: hello again sir, good to hear you dodged that indictment - excellent work!
kr: all in a day's work, now how can I help you?
gordo: well my cohorts and I want a giant pay raise but we have constantly denied others in the public service so we are in a bit of a bind. Actually not only did we deny raises we actually ripped up contracts and imposed huge pay cuts on large numbers of public servants. Some of them, mainly women, now only get 10 bucks an hour!!
Add to this the fact that these same public servants are almost all up for contract negotiations and it seems like an impossible situation!! (pathetic wimpering and sobbing)
kr: Without sounding conceited it takes a lot to impress me. And you sir have done so!
I am not even going to charge you my normal retainer. (3 human souls and the still warm entrails of a 1000 puppy dogs)
Just do as follows:
1)appeal to the greed of your political advesaries and draft a secret deal for completely unreasonable pay increases. Maybe throw in a juicy pension plan aswell just too make sure they go along.
2)When inevitable public outrage occurs the day after you "republican" the bill through congress (or whatever the hell you call it up there)the socialists will bail. Wait a day or so and resolve to do likewise stating that the issue should be refered to a "independent" panel. (maniacal laughter followed by coughing)
Continue to low-ball the unions in upcoming negotiations, allow the "independent" panel to give you the real raise you expected in the first place and enjoy the ancilliary benefit of watching your socialist advesaries completely discredit themselves.
Allah! I mean voila!
gordo(sobbing with gratitude): Thank you sir, thank you ... you truly are the king of kings!

I feel so sorry for Elliott, he's quite a unique example of the Mohawk Valley Formula.
So full of hate and anger over what, nothing. he's a angry scared middle class white guy who listens to daily CKNW propaganda, very sad.

Go ahead Elliott , do a Google search on controlling the public mind and the Mohawk Valley formula you would be quite surprised.
Ask yourself some questions
1) Who benefits from lower wages in the economy
2) Why does seeing others do well make you angry.
3) Where does the extra money go when we attack workers.
4) Does lowering the standards of some benefit others and who benefits.
5) Why do others who confront power make you so angry.
6) Who is the media accountable to, who owns the media and what stories get covered. (does Michael Jackson deserve more coverage than American soldiers getting killed)
7) What is a equitable society and do we have one now. Why is it not covered more that
10% of America controls 2 thirds of all its wealth. It that okay with you.
I am just trying to understand you more.
8) Does the current system off Global economics serve the global population or should we choose a different model , do you think we can have a different model, does that scare you.

Mohawk Valley Forumla
Going back to the Mohawk Valley Formula, the idea was to move into a community where there's a strike going on, flood it with propaganda -- you know, take over the media, the churches, the schools, everywhere else -- pour in this propaganda about harmony and so on the way I described it.

And then there's those bad guys out there, who are trying to disrupt our harmonious lives. You know, like that union organizer who's probably a communist or an anarchist anyway, probably un-American, and is trying to destroy all these wonderful things we have and we've gotta band together and kick him out him out. We have to defend our way of life against this.

A lot of religion gets thrown in. Remember that the United States is an extremely fundamentalist country"

Cut Carol some slack all ready, she is not the villain here, its Gord.

of course it's gord. who else could it be????

I always loved a jester! Nicely played my jogging funny friend.

Aghh Yes! Politics is really the game of illusions, or is that dellusions? Oh well - they keep spinning and the greedy creeps keep winning.

Perhaps, some day, the CanWest media-sapped BC public will wake up from their dumbed-down stupor and realize how badly that they have been had.

In the interim, you, I, the teachers, and all of the working slogs will continue to take it up the ... And all the while, the ever more weasel-like Gordo will be slurping on his Mai-tai from his gilded cup - engraved, with adorations, from his corporate suitors. Oh, and guess who will be getting the tab for that round - yet again?

Slurp, Slurp Slurp...

Woody and Elliot, they're ALL villains, eh. It wasn't Carol's conscience that got to her. It was the pissed off public. They all just figured that if they acted together they could get great pensions and higher salaries in spite of the fact that the Gordies are being tough on the teachers and other unions. It's too bad our system hasn't evolved enough to include a method of firing the whole bunch of them--both sides of the house. I was seriously in love with that ranting and raving Kwan person for almost single-handedly taking on the Libs before the last election, but now as I scroll backwards over all her moral outrage on the floor, I wonder what it was all about.

it was all about POLITICS pal.

In the old days they just had the police beat the crap out of people who organized against power, you can search many examples. They still do it but cannot do it to the same extent, what they have to do now is control the public mind, very simple and bragged about methods of public propaganda. How else can you
explain the massive inequity of our current system. Everyone is scared to change anything because they feel like they can lose their little tiny piece of the pie. The ruling elite who only want one thing and that's
everything. Would it be so bad to have a more equitable society, we have the money and technology to change things overnight we just don't have enough people to see threw the all the BS were are fed daily.
I can prove that things could even be better for Elliott.

"It's too bad our system hasn't evolved enough to include a method of firing the whole bunch of them--both sides of the house"

We can Truman, the last civic election seen only a 32% turnout, thats 68% of voters that feel like you and would support you , we are always taught that we are powerless but really we hold all the cards. This wage hike could not pass due to public outrage and nothing more.

Maybe an MLA from both sides of the house sould be recalled, in a symbolic gesture... I'd nominate Mayencourt and Lali.

Elliot :posted: it was all about POLITICS pal.
I agree, that pretty well sums up this story.

I watched that show in the house yesterday on TV... it was too funny. I thought Mayencourt was going to break out in tears. Someone should explain to him that $11 is alot of money to a pandhandler and other people his safe streets act targets.
On the same token, seems to me this was nothing more than a PR move by James.

No come on, Gordo , Lali and Mayencourt

Here are the step by step instructions.

Both Gordo and Mayencourt lost the popular vote in their riding, it would be an easy recall.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/rcl/recall.new.htm

Just a recall campaign would send Mayencourt over the edge, he is a very unstable man on a normal day.

'On the same token, seems to me this was nothing more than a PR move by James'. either you're being sarcastic or you're a complete bloody idiot!

Sure would be funny if some one could make up an $11 bill with Mayencourts face on it.

The real tragedy in this regarding James was the blown opportunity to take the liberals to task. The one thing about this mess is that left or right, forwards or backward, all were dismayed with bill 15. The funny thing is, is that at least James is backing out due to public outcry (as naive as it was); meanwhile, campbell has not insinuated that perhaps they should listen to public and hold off on the raise. Instead he's pointing the finger a James, and the media has jumped on board. Ironic that the party that's backing out because of public response is the considered the bad guy.

Also, pay no heed to elliot people - there was once a poster you was apt at using the phrase "pump it up...". None other than our old nemisis, nemisis. he's a fool with nothing of substance to add - at least ron erwin tries once in a while!

Carol James did the right thing. An MLA is supposed to be responsive to her constituents. That underpins our parlimentary system. It's part of the 'good faith' aspect to our system. We've just temporarily forgotten because of the BC Liberal abuse of power and betrayal of the public trust.

I think many of the BC Libs are unemployable really.

Elliott is the victim of the Mohawk Valley formula as are many others, very sad
indeed. I was trying to help him if he would only turn down the radio.

Way to go, Carole. Finally a politician who has the guts to admit that she made a mistake. I so admire that in a person...and none of us find it easy. To be in such a public arena made this all the more difficult -but doing what was right rather than protecting her ego shows a lot of character.
Lead on!

I realize that my last post references Bill 15 when it should obviously be Bill 17.

The right wing wackos who infest this forum just don't get it.

Yes, there has been lots of anger, rage disappointment, whatever, over Carole James and her caucus's involvement in this ugly little arrangement.

And very little aimed at Gordon Campbell and his crew.

No, we who are slightly left of the dumbed down pap spewed out in Can/west bibles are not warming up to that drunk with the stretched nose.

For drive-by chameleons like Elliot (AKA about 10 other monikers in the past two years to Tyee readers), to think this is a public lynching of James shows the depths these guys splash about in.

Campbell isn't being pillored here for the simple reason that his actions in this money mess are what most people expect of him.

Campbell is sneaky, prefers to work out of public view, is known to mouth whoppers the size of his wine glass on a regular basis and can't even be trusted to honour legal contracts unless they involve political friends.

To expect a thorough condemnation of that type of person on this particular story in Tyee is a bit much given the volumes of words already residing in the Tyee archives accurately describing Campbell's dark side.

That Harry Lali was camped in the same bank lineup as Lorne Mayencourt yesterday, isn't really a surprise.

The only surprise regarding either man is that they actually managed to get re-elected in May.

So, to some extent, voters in both ridings deserve what they have wished for.

Once again, I have to express my deep disappointment in the play that the Globe&Mail is giving to this issue.

The Globe's Gary Mason, reads like a Liberal party hack in today's article, which is pushed as sort of a cross between a column and a hard news analysis.

According to the former Vancouver Sun puck chaser, James is dumb, Campbell deserves a massive salary increase. He adds that James can no longer be trusted ..by Campbell.

When is the Globe&Mail going to stop pretending it offers fair coverage of news events in BC.

Mason is allowed to ramble on sans any quotes, any real specifics, but loaded with a grade 10's grasp of politics and enough cliches to fill a sports pages?

Mason ought to be a friggin' embarrassment to the Globe, which until they hired him on, was presenting a fairly balanced picture of life here on the west coast.

"'On the same token, seems to me this was nothing more than a PR move by James'. either you're being sarcastic or you're a complete bloody idiot!"
I was being serious you pompous ass

Hmm, Allan, now I want to go grab today's globe... but I have a feeling it's just gonna make me angry.
Very true about Campbell, when this raise thing came about I looked at it as another arrogant move by the Libs...but was even more in dis-belief the NDP supported it.

I don't even read the globe any more. It used to be the only paper I received. Why they would hire someone who reads like the Vancouver Sun and alienate their regular readers is beyond me. Why even have a BC section if it's going to cause you to lose readership?

They can spin it any way they like. They're losing touch, just like their counterparts in the US. People get it. And, they're glad Ms James stepped up and did the right thing.

.

I'm with you on this one, Truman. I didn't expect the Campbell Clones "to get it", but I thought at least a few of the NDP members would and they didn't.

It's not about a pay raise, it's about representation. They must represent the people's interests first, before their own. First, the inequities created by the present government must be addressed... such as poverty wage levels due to privatization, cuts to the disabled, seniors, community living, those on welfare, and 0-0-0... and especially Bill 12 which quashes the process of negotiation and the right to strike for a fair wage.

That the Opposition unanimously only focused on (and stood up for) their own so-called pain in this deal rather than the pain of those they represent is truly telling and illustrates the increasing disconnection between the public and those we elect....and how shallow the waters of empathy have become.

When I was a little girl my Dad had a favourite saying that you always feed your horse before yourself...that in doing so you honour the personal bond of trust and responsibility you have taken on.

Ya gotta love Mayencourt. I do. He’s my MLA. He reminds me of Toto in that scene where the puppy runs over and draws back the curtain on the Wizard. Except of course we’re not dealing with a harmless old man here, but a morally and intellectually bankrupt political system.

A very telling stance by the Vancouver Sun today. An editorial that doesn’t amount to a slap on the wrist and a truly idiotic op/ed by some guy named Tex. What are they smoking in there?

Tex assures us our elected reps are working very hard for us. My MLA won’t even return my calls. His assistant tells me he is now unavailable until January because after the fall session ends on Thursday he’s off to Europe “partly on business” (something about addiction). Now, does that mean he’s paying for the trip and we are benefiting, or the opposite?

"Ya gotta love Mayencourt. I do."

That is true, he certainly provides entertainment.

ubiquitous; why bother? lefties don't listen anyway. that's why the federal party will never govern and the provincials only have a very slim chance at the best of times, i.e. w.a.c. getting old, vander zalm and fantasy gardens. the libs are a big tent, with oppals and taylors and colemans and collins'. they're nowhere near as right as you guys claim, and they listen and adapt. the ndp hasn't learned to do that yet. ms. james is trying, and until friday i thought she might succeed and be viable in the next election. now she's blown it and they're destined to run from behind again. tough luck if you're a lefty.

I wouldn't consider the province of BC a small company. Most leaders of any organization of this size would be making anywhere from double to 100 times more than Campbell.

If Campbell misleads then backtracks on his word he's a liar and untrustworthy. If Carole misleads and backtracks on her word she's an honest, trustworthy person of great character.

I guess someone who succumbs to backroom pressure from her financial supporters is someone of character. If Campbell did that he would be accused of being in the pockets of his financial supporters.

A double standard is becoming very clear in here.

Yep! once again it's proven that the pigs are the most intelligent group in the barnyard, and therefore the most competent to rule.

Tough luck Lefti - if you're not a pig.

not too difficult to be more competent than the socialist hordes gas. walk in the park really. you pretty much need to self-implode before losing to these guys, unless, of course they have glennocchio at the helm.

the libs are a big tent, with oppals and taylors and colemans and collins'. they're nowhere near as right as you guys claim, and they listen and adapt, crows Elliot.

Wow, you're even more delusional than I thought, Elliot.

So c,mon Elliot, let's see if you're big enough to be honest yourself and criticize your own party...that Taylor and Oppal are also big-time disappointments to the BC Libs, that neither one of them could debate themselves out of a paper bag. Or maybe you'd like to comment on the Ministry of Family and Children and the child deaths that have resulted...or how CN has derailed this province...and it's own tracks on a regular basis...and hey, what about that old BC Lib vaudeville team Basi and Virk...what happened to them, anyway?

What you don't get is that most of those posting here already know Campbell and his trained Clones are irredeemable...as a political party you are beyond hope...though certainly, as you have proved time and time again... definitely not beyond dirty politics or dirty martinis.

Good old star Wally, so concerned with the rule of law he started by breaking the rules and taking a free nomination unable to compete for one, as far as Carole Taylor, another star unable to compete against Jennifer Clarke and former mayor of Van(she would have got her butt kicked)

A caller put it to Wally, hey Wally the BC Libs have closed court houses and cut major funding to legal aid which in turn denies someone the ability to a fair trial or justice. How could you run for such a corrupt party.

Wally answers well gee we really had to get the economy in order. Oh so Wally feels the ability for someone to get legal aid should be based on a free market scale, by Wally's definition if the economy takes a downturn we
should basically deny basic human rights, what a twisted power hungry fool. I don't know how he sleeps at night.
Anymore hero's Elliott, oh yea Collins, the guy who quits 3 months before an election , what loyalty, the guy who had his offices raided by RCMP . The guy who was either involved or had no idea what was going on in his own office.

You can call it a big tent, I call it a chain gang.

Your outlook is faulty, JIm! Taxes are collected to efficiently provide services to a group of citizens, NOT to be used as assets in a corporation. Campbell is NOT the CEO of anything. He's a public servant, just like the teachers, nurses, HEU and BCGEU members.

That's the problem. He treats our taxes as assets for the shareholders (WEALTHY) in a private corporation. That works for a tin-pot dictatorship. Many of us in BC continue to believe in our democracy.

Nice try by the socialists above to justify the flip flop by Carol James.
If I had someone do that to me I would never trust them again. The double standard here is truly over the top. What a weak attempt to hide the truth that the NDP are not morally any different than any other party and their leader is a flake. In fact their followers are flakes. It is all exposed here now.
The left doesn't have an original thought. They only want to whine and spew rhetoric without offering any fresh ideas.

"If I had someone do that to me I would never trust them again."

I guess that is why no one should ever trust Gordon Campbell.

"The left doesn't have an original thought. They only want to whine and spew rhetoric without offering any fresh ideas."

Can anyone but me see the irony in this statement by Ron Erwin?

I got as far as the second comment above and was reminded of why I'm avoiding the comment sections these days. If Schreck had revealed rock-solid evidence that Carole James was the mother of Christ reborn, SDGreen and co would have had exactly the same thing to say: "Rotten pinko NDP whiner!"

Bye again!

flip flop good one Ron, only problem is it was pisser gord who demanded that the NDP eliminate the gold plated MLA pension plan years back ,the same one that he tried to sneak back in last week, your right you can't trust a flip floper
Louise your correct MLAs are public servants their job is to serve us, the people, and are not to stick both their snouts and feet in the public trough.

"The left doesn't have an original thought. They only want to whine and spew rhetoric without offering any fresh ideas."

Yeah Ron, I see you offer inovative solutions to problems here everyday.

Jim,

If Carol James did mislead, (and I hope she did) It would have been to show these so-called Liberals for what they are.

The unassailable fact is that it was James who pulled the plug. That is what most pees off the Liberals. Who, among them, would have done this?

You're right Skeptikool. James did the honourable thing. But she lost the PR battle. Campbell's spin is that he would haven't have done it this way if she wasn't in collusion.

Now not only has she lost face with the public, her own MLAs will be out to get her, as her about face not only cut their slaries, but also kills enlargements of constituency office budgets. She will be the sacrificial lamb..

In my opinion, a good idea would be to pass legislation that any future pay raise bills proposed by government can only be introduced 60 days before dissolution of the legislature (prior to the pre-set election date). This might keep them honest, if they wish to keep the public on their side during a campaign. No government should be able to give themselves a pay raise while in office... any legislation should be for the next round of MLA's. If you don't like the proposed pay... then don't run.

Surprisingly, as an NDP supporter, I find myself MORE ticked off at the NDP than at the Libs. James may have apologized, but I can't help but view the apology in a cynical way. Obviously, they had to know the public would be pissed off... why vote for it in the first place?

My oh my . How easily we have all been distracted from the deaths of all those children by a few paltry dollars. Good red herring Gordo.

I quote:

"Matthew 18: 5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to suffer harm, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Way to go Carol. Be the millstone.

Just when they have the BC Liberanos running for cover in the wake of hundreds of unreviewed child deaths, Gordon et al end up laughing their tails off as Carole's own supporters turn on her.

A very well crafted plan - obviously some quality spin people imported from the U.S. advising Gord.

that might be so jeeves but I suspect the diversion might be short lived, once everyone cools off sanity should prevail and el gordo should find his feet back on the coals with a vengence since this would be a good way for James to try and regain a little credibility.

Actually, I will give Lorne Mayencourt credit for having an opinion, stating it publicly and then defending it, right or wrong.

Everybody else snuck this thru in 2 hours in the context of child death investigation crisis, and then scurried into the shadows when it all went sideways.

I am not sure if Mayencourt is right, but he is courageous, and the only one talking and acting semi-accountable. Isn't that what we want at least?

the guy is totally selfish, thinks he deserves a raise after he passes the safe street act to get a few votes instead of working to solve the problems facing the homeless, oh right that would mean actually standing up to his boss wouldn't it since gordo and coell were in charge when a lot of these people were put on the street!

How tolerant everyone is of the 'this is politics' notion!
We pay these people to do a job for us. No wonder they don't get it done, when they are busy with all these little machinations. Never mind apologizing or 'admitting you were wrong'. This is neither a confessional nor the pearly gates, and talk is cheap. Let us see what they do from now on, maybe some real hard work, for a change, like, looking after all this boring stuff like health care, the environment, education??

Chris H, thanks for putting Gordon Campbell and Carol James in the same boat. Don't trust either of them.

I suspect that the reason Ms James had a change of heart had more to do with a couple of phone call from senior union leaders than any altruistic thought process.

Tell me again how the unions don't run the No Discernable Prospects party.

hey kilchi if the ndp were contolled by the unions why did the non union contractors do so well when the ndp was in power. Btw you seem to have a problem with unions so, do you like clac which is the non union union, christian labour association of canada, or the front for the non union contracotors, phil hochstein and the independant contractors association.

The point here is any group that calls themselves an association is a union, the non union unions or open shop if you like are lobbying on behalf of their members like any trade union except this non union bunch have the ear of gordo because they are pawns in a war against working people in this country and their right to a fair and decent pay for a days work.

This bias of yours and others like you is really very hyprocritical of you and your ilk! Who is going to support these non union workers when they are old and crippled up unable to collect wbc under the present rules, unable to work, are we as taxpayers going to foot the bill. Is this not then a further subsidy for the non union contractors?

A member of the building trades pays a part of their wage into a pension plan which will be their for them and their families when they retire allowing them to have quality of life and be self supporting like any good insurance plan.

This plan is not subisidized by taxpayers, it is supported by the workers themselves, money from these plans gets invested and help keep our economy going, much of it going to support the non union workers actually, kind of ironic eh, much of the development in the lower mainland is financed by pension funds like the ontario teachers fund.

The salaries pensions and benefit plans are negotiated between the employers association and the employees associations except in b.c. where it seems to be a matter of greasing the right palms. Eight billion went into offshore accounts last year, you gotta wonder about that eh.

The building trades pay a percentage of their hourly wage to a training fund which makes them even more self supporting.

Ron Erwin commented, Chris H, thanks for putting Gordon Campbell and Carol James in the same boat. Don't trust either of them.
Ron as you know In a boat there is a caption(Gord) and the captain is resonsible for that boat,he makes the decisions,now should that boat hit aground he is responsible,not the passenger(Carol)who was along for the ride, the Caption (Gord) is the one who goes down with the boat, after all he was the one that set up and followed this irresponsible course.

"gordo and coell were in charge when a lot of these people were put on the street!"

Actually I believe it was the NDP that shut down many of the mental health facilities

Well, if this is true, doesn't it mean that unions provide a real public service, Lad? And, they are a force for good in our society?

Woody, okay, let me rephrase. Thank's for putting Gordon Campbell and Carol James in the sane bed. Don't trust either of them.
I guess you will ask who's on top.
Got a smoke ?

Kilcalgan lad, weren't you writing here as Working Man just a few days ago?

Your anti-union phlem is as troubling as your grasp on politics. Take a lesson from your sidekick Ron E's wobbly logic and stay away from anything that might be fact checked.

Jamez, the Socreds started it, against the advice of many who foretold our present problems. Then when Martin slashed the health funding from the Feds' the NDP continued it. These people still cost us plenty, though the money appears in fragments in various budgets and charity services. If we were looking for a better bang for our dollar through out the years of restructuring I don't think we got it.

blonde don't forget the nice little real estate deals the friends got on the lands the institutes were built on. More offshore accounts going ka-ching ka-ching!

Ron Erwin do you have a match?

Oh, of course, Ursus, I'm reminded daily as I drive or skytrain my way to my 15% less job. You want to hear a couple of really juicy ones find out what the Nurses' Residence (@ VGH) was sold out right for or the deal that the P3 company got for the new building @ 12th and Oak.

probably make we want to throw up, don't know whats worse the sell out or the support given by the right wingnuts on these boards and in the media!

"that might be so jeeves but I suspect the diversion might be short lived, once everyone cools off sanity should prevail and el gordo should find his feet back on the coals with a vengence since this would be a good way for James to try and regain a little credibility."

As evidenced here:

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_child-deaths20051123.html

From the article:

"A former B.C. ombudsman says she tried to warn Premier Gordon Campbell as recently as May of this year that child deaths were not being properly reviewed."

Kind of puts a lie Campbell's claim that he was "shocked" the investigations had been shelved.

What are these children's deaths supposed to be reviewed for anyway ? I am not trying to be callous, but once a coroner determines whether the death was natural or a homocide, what exactly are we trying to figure out ?
I am only asking.
It seems to be BC Liberal bashing at best.

Ron, a simple answer: reviews are done to see if proper protocols were followed, that government (officials and puplic employees) were not in some way responsible for the child's death. The recent case that's been in the news is a good example of why these deaths should be reviewed. If mistakes can be avoided in the future, then they should be.

As for Liberal bashing, they should know a lot about that, they made great hay out the same ministry when in opposition. Remember it was the Liberals who claimed their government would be an open and transparent and accountable one.

Campbell keeps digging himself deeper on this one. Now, it seems he's lying to the public about what he knew and when he knew it. Are you okay with that?

Well, I can't help Campbell out of this after he obviously stuck his foot in his mouth while in opposition. But if it was me, I wouldn't bother with a review in every single case. I mean there is probably a 99% chance that Govt. mismanagement had nothing to do with the death anyway. I can see why they wanted to get out of these reviews a mostly they are a waste of time and much money, when the only thing that can come out of it, is to score political point son the ruling govt.
Now I am prolife, but even I don't see the point of spending too much time on dead people.
Why not try to protect lives by encouraging woman to think twice before having an abortion.
There are thousands of lives lost each year on this matter.
I obviously expect flack for these views. But I have thick skin after posting on this website with my consevative views.

What do you think those investigations will show, Ron?

I'll tell you, in some cases criminal neglect. I can think of three just in our papers where mothers murdered their infants. Did they have contact with the ministry? Were their complaints made that the ministry ingnored?

Listen, these people deliberately abolished the Children's Commissioner. Why? Because they knew their policies would end up killing some children and they didn't care. They knew because they were very vocally warned and also in the US the same policy changes resulted in the same results. This is what is so very horrid about these people and neo-conservatism. Vile.

Were there complaints... etc

Also, I have heard the woman they now have (her name escapes me) on the radio a few months ago and she was completely making excuses for this gov't.

If they have nothing to hide they should immediately restore the office and the same woman who used to oversee this. They should do it today and with humility. But, they won't. Even though what they're trying to hide will come out. They don't believe in government. They don't beleive in social programs of any kind, including child protection. They are 'market fundamentalists'.

Well redrivergirl, you are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think it's an over reaction. We consevatives are nearly as vile as you make us out to be. What about my compassion I have for the unborn child. Do you have any ?

Ron what your asking about is a federal matter this thread pertains to provincial matter

"What about my compassion I have for the unborn child. Do you have any ?"

and AWAAYYYY we go!

Ron... your so-called concern for the unborn is totally outwieghed by your support of the American beligerance in Iraq. Could you please explain how an individual can support two completely different attitudes regarding other people's lives without mentioning the Fox Network?

Are the two exclusive, Ron? Can't one care about both? I think those who only care about the one while working to eliminate good social programs, equal opportunities for a child's education and health, don't really care about any unborn children, they just want to control women. Otherwise, why wouldn't they care as deeply for those already born? I read today in the US a Catholic school teacher just got fired for being unwed and pregnant. She isn't going to marry - who knows if the fellow want to - and she is fired. Hmm. Does that make it easier for her to have her baby? Shouldn't the school board say, while we don't condone premarital sex, we do support Ms... and her decision to have her baby and therefore, we will have a baby shower on this date? No, she is now an unemployed potentially single mom. Or, perhaps she will financially be in a place where she can't have her child.

Ron, I am not saying all conservatives are vile. I am saying the BC Liberals and those who approve of their actions, knowing their actions would potentially harm children (and they knew) but because of their fundamentalist ideology enact policy that hurts those children anyway, are vile. They just are.

Ron ,

Just a heads up, if you care about the unborn child you should vote for a socialist or left of center party. Stats have show that in the US and Canada more abortions happen under conservative governments due to the decreased social programs and standards of living for women, the worse off poor women are the
more abortions they have, less hope = Less kids.

Now start caring about the living and the dead Ron, lets be progressive and save lives on both ends.

If your a moral man you would know Jesus was a socialist and cared about his fellow man. (I think its in the bible)

I have to ask, where are all the progressive conservatives in this province? Why are none speaking out about the more cruel and bone-headed decisions the Liberals have made?

The last couple of days I have heard and read many on the left, upset by the NDP's part in the pay raise, openly criticize the party they support. Why don't we see this on the right in BC? Why are they always so quick to jump to the Liberals defense? Is it just about power at all costs?

Someone here said the Liberals are a big tent that encompass all centre to right of centre, but it doesn't appear to me as a party that governs that way. Wally Opal? Carrol Taylor? Please.

Is it that they are out there and not just being heard in the media?

If I'm wrong about this, and I hope I am, someone point me to some examples....

I should add, I'm generally speaking about outside the party... I realize that for MLA's, toeing the party line is the order of the day.

Ron Erwin: "But if it was me, I wouldn't bother with a review in every single case."

Obviously, you haven't thought this out well. Deaths of children, in or out of government care, should be routine so we can form policy to minimize children's deaths. Accidental, on purpose, or by systematic neglect, the death of any child should be of concern to everyone. Protecting children is every citizen's responsibility. Your unborn children red herring is a pathetic attempt to displace the shame the BC Liberals should feel for breaking their responsibility.

"Can't one care about both? I think those who only care about the one while working to eliminate good social programs, equal opportunities for a child's education and health, don't really care about any unborn children, they just want to control women."

Yeah, I love how the people against abortion are usual the same ones cutting school lunch programs, daycare, education funding and the like... it's like they "save" the fetis so it gets to grow up in the crappiest environment possible. Then they complain when it steals their lexus.

At least Carole James noted the public outrage. The Liberals never once acknowledged that the public was upset. Yeah, the NDP screwed up and a lot of us let them know it. So they backtracked. Said-- we hear you say we blew it, so we're changing course.
That's called actually listening to your constituents.
I don't hear the king and his court saying anything about the public outrage-- only their disappointment in their fellow aristoi.

The Liberals win here - why can't anyone see this? As much as it pains me, the timing of the release of Bill 17 was at the peak of it's scandalous summit. The BC Libranos are running for cover and Bill 17 comes up now?

It's called political savvy and Carole should have caught on to this.

One of the biggest cases of Liberal mismanagement and it's forgotten already. Makes me sick.

If the NDP were in power, they would have Gordon, Hagen and Les in bloody interrogation room.

How much talk of the 713 unreviewed deaths has there been in the media since Bill 17 became public? None. It was a brilliant move and the public has been fooled ... again.

Jeeves, this is a huge scandal and will keep building. It won't stay off the public radar. It's too big of a 'story'.

Campbell is a crook.

That Carole James had the the jam to have 2nd thoughts on the fee raise is clealy a point on her behalf.

That Carole James voted for it and then reveresed her opinion when the public outcry (entirely predictable, btw) became too loud demonstrates how sad a leader she really is.

She could have seen it coming, and voted against. She then could have argued that it got passed despire her party's objections, as it would have been.

Carole is out of her league, and the Big Liberal Machine will continue to steam roller her.

Just read the local tri-weekly in which my fearless MLA Claude (the already government pensioned) Richmond, expresses great dissapointment at not getting the salary increase on his minister's salary he had entitlement to.

Any chance of getting a food drive going for the poor schmuck?

Hey, where's your Xmas spirit?

I dissagree with you mcgee, yes she screwed up and apathy may have hurt the ndp candidates during the municipal elections but most are willing to forgive if the politician makes amends, gordo driving drunk is a good example tho he had a lot of help from his media pals.

James stopped the swine from pigging out and that is what counts in my book, do you think these liberals deserve a raise after all the cut backs, the pain and suffering they have caused the less fortunate who are unable to defend themselves. Not bloody likely!

'At least Carole James noted the public outrage. The Liberals never once acknowledged that the public was upset. Yeah, the NDP screwed up and a lot of us let them know it. So they backtracked. Said-- we hear you say we blew it, so we're changing course.' says HGA.
adrian dix himself couldn't have spun that one any better.

Carole screwed up, did you hear that Elliott . That was me be critical of my party, you should try it some time it is okay you know, it my leader got busted for DWI for example I would advocate for a new leader as would
others because we do not share the same brain. Carole screwed up , admitted the mistake and retracted her support for the bill , What has Gordo done, like a spoiled kid said that he does not want to talk about the issue and more and said he will no longer cooperate , him and Mayencourt are like suckholes with less drinking money. Are you proud of your leader Elliott, kind of reminds me of Preston Manning complaining about fiscal responsibility and then accepting the gold plated pension and moving into the Mansion Stornaway , he said it would be basically improper to not accept the benefits of official opposition.

sorry about the typo's, busy day.

hey elliot everyone makes mistakes its what we do about them that counts.

yup gordo really cares about kids in this Province.

http://www.cbc.ca/regionalnews/caches/bc_child-povertyy20051124.html

Thanks for that link ursus. Nice to see my mla still swimming in denial. I mean wasn't he just fighting to eradicate poverty among he and his colleagues?

After all, who voted for those kids, eh?

Yes, those child poverty rates the worst in Canada sure makes the Olympic party look even more gross, if possible. That's something they can 'brag' about in 'Vaauuncoover'. Bah.

It is clear from reading the above commentaries that righties, especially the right wingnuts who rant on Tyee strands can never change left wing minds. Even in their "disillusionment" lefties care about their fellow humans. Equally clear is that lefties have no hope of ever enlightening right wing fanatics, and why would they want to since these psychopathic right wing extremists have no souls. No soul -not human. They are simply lost people regardless of their wealth, power and privilege.
I would much prefer to read some slightly more intellectual argument based on reason and small t truth.

Carol made amistake - she had the intestinal fortitude to admit it. She may pay dearly for it, although we know that GC never paid a penny farthing for his little Hawaiian frolic, replete with repentance, rife with hubris.
However, lost in the malestrom of vitriol is the fact that a bench mark for public employee benefits and wages has been established, when the shat upon public workers go back with hat in hand to their "deal making" elected bosses, who by the bye are the ultimate Public Employess.

more on gordo's compassion for kids

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_child-deaths20051124.html

From all the kafuffle about this, I can't tell whether the Lord Gord suckered Carol to force hundreds of dead children off the news, or Carol suckered Gordie in to taking yet another big suck at the taxpayer's straw so she could then get him back on the front page for that.

Does anybody know how to get a complete record of compensation legislation these Liberals have passed since the big 40% raise they gave themselves their first week in office?

I would really love to see that list, and compare it to some particular MLAs actual paycheck and pension values.

I think Schreck said it right, oink oink, next time you phone or email your liberal mla, offer up this comment oink oink oink! The ndp except for lali saw the error in their ways and made amends, the liberals acted like a ceo when the garbage man is in my opinion a more useful member of society and makes one hell of a lot less!

I think people who live in lali's riding should sign up with the ndp and work hard to make sure he never gets to run again.

It is truly amazing to read how dippers convince themselves the NDP did the right thing on this issue.

Only a person disconnected from the reality of daily living would vote YES on a pay raise of 15% and NOT expect a public backlash.

The teachers, healthcare workers ferryworkers all accepted 0, 0 and pittance. All these workers had their faces slapped by the NDP and Liberals and these elected officials for some reason expected them all to take it without outrage.

I could understand if this was a complex issue, with lots of twists and turns of a parliamentary or legal nature - but Bill 17 was just plain and simple wrong - both parties should held accountable in 2009.

The NDP are the rotten ones. No vision, no plan, just great whiners wanting more pay at the Leg@!

I agree with Chris H and skeptikool ... someone had to step up to the plate and admit a bad decision was made. Bravo, Carol James!! And Bravo, David Schreck , for such an excellent analysis.

RedRiverGirl nails it in her post of 1 week ago

Here is what Lorne wrote back to me:
Dear Yuriko,

I want to thank you sincerely for communicating your concerns to me regarding the recent passage of Bill 17 and it's subsequent repeal with Bill 19. I will of course share your views with my colleagues as we discuss the next steps with respect to the three key issues that were
the basis for a unanimous vote in the legislature on Thursday. Before I do that however I wish to provide you with as much information as you require in making an informed judgment on myself or the other MLA's.

First, the pay raise which has been reported as a 15% increase. In 2004 I received $78,135 as a private member. In addition, the province
contributes money to my RRSP which totals $5,675 and change, so currently my true income is $83,810.50. With the passage of Bill 17 my
total income would be $86,450 for an increase of $2639.50 or in other words a 3.05% increase. The RRSP contribution from the province is
negated by Bill 17.

The second portion of the bill provides for a pension. I am required by law to contribute 9% of my income or $7,708.50. The pension provides up to 65% of my income or $56,192.50.

The net affect of Bill 17 is that my gross pay will be $78,741.50 or an increase of $606.50 annually. Not much of an increase, around $11 per week. But I do get a pension after six years of service and that pension max's out to $56,000 at twelve years.

The third portion of the package is riding services. Currently I receive $84,000 for my constituency office. Most of that is taken up in salaries to my two valued assistants. It's important for you to know that each year I have to supplement the government contribution through fund raising to the tune of $30,000. Why? Well I have 90,000 residents
in Vancouver Burrard. Most ridings have 30 - 40,000 voters. My riding has seen a building boom in the past few years and has grown faster than anticipated. So the Legislative Assembly Management Committee decided to give ridings a $36,000 increase. I need that money to serve my
community.

Finally, from 2001 - 2005 I and my colleagues took a 5% rollback of our salary voluntarily and put a cap on our salaries. This resulted, in my
case, in a $22,000 savings for the province.

I love my job as an MLA so I don't complain that I have to maintain two homes, travel weekly, work long hours etc. and I won't bore you with any of those arguments but I do ask you to consider these facts over the
next few days and tell me what you would like me to do.

Sincerely,

Lorne Mayencourt

Boo Hoo to the greedy Premier & MLA's who still can't get it through their thick heads that there are so many people who are the working poor who can't afford the exorbient rents of today.
I've been on a disability pension for 28 years now and in all that time I'm still only getting $840. a month, my last increase was $8.00. a month & my rent went up $6 bucks. (Whoopy Ding bring out the brass band)
So L Mayencourt chew on that!

carole james is done. she's boring and monotonous, and now she's proven she can't take the heat. just watch the libs capitalize on that weakness. the knives will be out soon. how about glennocchio for leader?