"The concern about government debt is that it imposes an onerous tax burden on future generations. How ironic it is that the BC Liberals' answer to this is to impose an even greater tax burden on future generations with the lease fee obligations it is accumulating in all of the P3 contracts it is entering into."

The truth of that conclusion is chilling. Of course, if it is your buddy you give the P3 contract to then you personally might come out ahead.

Who runs the country - We the People - or the Banks??

If We the People - why do we allow banks to create money and borrow it from them? - which creates great profits for them, and great debt for us, via their usary.

Once a responsible decision has been made that we need money for something - why don't we have the Bank of Canada create that money instead of private banks? (we always assume a responsible decision-making process here, at all steps from government discussion of need to bank approval of loan, not just "printing billions of dollars to hand around like candy", an obviously crazy idea promoted by the bankers et al. - who actually have done quite a lot of that themselves, leading to many serious problems and heavy duty bailouts, which they don't like to talk about much...)

After that, we repay the money, as we would with private banks/investors, to maintain some stability with the money supply etc - but we do NOT have to add huge amounts of debt interest to it.

Again I ask - who runs the country - We the People - or the Banks???

Nothing is really going to improve around here until a lot more people understand the money situation here.

thanks for the important article.

let's also not forget that at the end of the project, once it's paid for, that highway or hospital becomes a public asset for all of us to use for as long as it lasts. If it's a lease or a ppp it remains in the hands of the company who built it and stays on our ledger as a monthly liability.

It took me 5 years to pay off my truck, but now that it's paid for I own it free and clear. It's an asset to me and costs me only for maintenance. Had I leased it I'd still be paying, month after month after month.

The Liberals are after the short buck because they know they and their electors will be mostly dead in 20-30 years . I plan on being in this province for a long time to come and hope for my children that there'll be something left in the public purse to ensure their independence.

bcfiberals

PPP stands for "Plundering the Public Purse".

There are thousands of horrible examples of the PPP mess all over the world, Argentina, Britain and Australia among the worst, yet these idiots are still ramming it down the public's throats as "savings"

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

slamdave, Paul Hellyer? Unfortunately the lessons of the depression and Keynesian economics is no longer taught.

How infuriating it is to see the sea to sky montstrosity grow knowing that it had less to do with the olympics (which was little justification to begin with)or safety(watch and see how much worse things get on the sea to die autobahn) than the cynically planned gentrification of Squamish and the billions that gordo's real estate and developer toadies will pocket. The lynch pin of the plan - a grotesque scar designed specifically to allow the wealthy elite to drive their single occupancy suv's to their parasitic jobs in the city center. And they have the nerve to call what's happening along the corridor "smart growth". What a lie! There could'nt be a more aggregious example of urban sprawl than what's happening here. I hope they choke on their fuel bills.
Also if it's of anyones interest the workers on that highway project get paid about 40$/hr.
(as opposed to the people who clean your hospital room to protect you from strepocaucus a for 10 bucks an hour)
That's your money suckers. All so rich people can have an easier time getting to their giant house, oceanview condo or wife-swapping party in whistler.
Meanwhile thanks to another sweetheart deal from the bc liberals to one of gordo's american corporate ceo golfing buddie's we had another massive train derailment in the Cheakamus canyon. The bc rail guys who used to check those f'in trains to make sure they would'nt derail are all gone. The money they would have got paid if they still had those jobs now go's to american shareholders of cn rail. What an awesome deal! (by the way that ceo buddy of gordo makes about 10 million a year compared to the 250k Squamish was given after the first derailment which blighted three of our rivers-why thats one paycheck for him!!)
And the best part of all of this? We (and our environment) get to pay for it!! No wonder gordo always has that shit-eating grin on his face.

I can confirm that private companies face borrowing costs several points higher than government pays.

I own Telus bonds at 7.7% and Crappy Tire bonds at 7.5%.

Government bonds, had I chosen to purchase them, would have given me yields at least 3% lower.

Government debt in BC is tiny as it is.

This is a sham, pure and simple.

But it does produce sizable commissions for well connected private money brokers.

Thanks for the article.

Is there not another cost and/or benefit (depending on how you think the world should work)?

Specifically, that it results in an increased opportunity to put the operation of the asset into private hands where profits can be ratcheted up by slashing labour and regulatory costs?

jesterjogger says 'No wonder gordo always has that shit-eating grin on his face".
Goddam I can't quit laughing, what a great quote.

Based on the ignorance (and I don't mean "stupid" )of the comments I'm reading here, many people here have little or no understanding of how capital markets work, or monetary policy for that matter. This article is somewhat one-sided. For instance, a good exapmle arguing in favour of P3s is the fast ferry fiasco - the project would have never got off the ground if the private sector had of been involved. The reasons for this are too numerous to mention.
Economics is a complex subject - too complex for the minds of most people.
The good professor has dumbed-down his argument for the sake of scoring a few political points - he should stick to teaching. And some of you posters should confront/challenge your overly simplistic beliefs; i.e., get educated.

What about RAV? No bank would touch this fiasco, so the PPP funding is coming mainly from BC Public Service pension plans! In fact RAV is nowhere near a true PPP, rather a 'bait and switch' style Fiberal pork barrel project.

Problems:[/U]

a) Bombardier Inc. needs to build more SkyTrain (ART) Mk. 2 cars as there is no orders. b) Another good freind of the Fiberals, SNC/Lavalin needs work. You know, gotta keep all those guys in Quebec working.

Solution:[I]

Get the BC and Civic Fiberals to design an expensive and complicated metro system in Vancouver, instead of the much cheaper and far more widely used LRT. Plan for needless yet expensive subways and get a compliant Global/Asper media and CORUS on side by giving them huge advertising contracts; oh yes, all on the public dime. Pretend that there is a PPP to smokescreen the true cost of RAV.

Result:[U]

Instead of LRT operating from Vancouver to Steveston and the airport, via the Arbutus Corridor for about $800 million, the public got to fund a $2 billion plus (already 3 fastferry fiasco's over the original budget) subway/metro system that will do little to alleviate congestion.

Dear Pekes
Please be so kind as to point out the errors in my post so that I can apologize appropriately in an expedicious manner.

Jester
Gee, tell us how you really feel, don't hold back now....

Pekes - and somehow you are smarter than the rest of us? Not!

Here is the fast ferry fiasco in a nutshell:
1) New ferry's are needed.
2) Smaller, faster, cheaper ferries, making more trip per day, cheaper to operate (in theory) than big boats.
3) FastFerries were designed to meet the criteria.

The problem was not really the ferries or technology, it was the original theory, supported by big business, of building smaller faster ferries making more trips. The fastferries are merely a scapegoat for faulty business planning.

Same is true of SkyTrain. We pay 3 to 4 times more for SkyTrain light metro than LRT and we get no benefit. SkyTrain is not only much more expensive to build, it's hugely more expensive to operate. That's why no one builds with it. But no, not here, our beloved Board of Trade support RAV which is a continuation of the skyTrain fiasco! So much for big business, they don't understand business at all, except the business of sucking mony from the taxpayer.

pekes - if the reasons are so numerous, could you not have mentioned one or two?

if you are so educated, please give us the benefits of your extensive knowledge.

this is a serious issue, and we really need all the information, before we can make an informed decision.

jesterjogger - if anything your apologies should be for understatement. gordink is lining the pockets of preferred associates (sociopaths are incapable of 'friendship', as they are without true feelings of any type. ergo campbell may have friends, but he is physically/mentally incapable of being a friend.)

i want to know what he gets in return.

oh, by the way, that shit eating grin is the result of years of practice. it is supposed to be a friendly smile.

it looks more like he has gas.

Pekes,

My father spent his career in international banking, and although I am a high school teacher by day, I devote considerable time and energy to the job of managing my own investments.

I understand capital markets fairly well.

But I fail to see the attraction of P3's for BC taxpayers.

Your assertion that the fast ferry fiasco would have been avoided had a P3 arrangement been in place is probably true, but it should be stated that the fiasco could also have been avoided if the government had not mixed up its political objectives (the creation of jobs to satisfy workers in a specific union) with basic transportation objectives.

Actually, P3's and the fast ferry fiasco have much in common:

Both are policies designed to reward a narrow interest group at the expense of the greater public good.

The very worst government policies are those that serve the political ambitions of the party in power, the sponsorship scandal being another example.

Are you a fan of P3's?

If you are, please make your case that they serve the broader interest of our citizens.

Thank you.

Oh we understand the corrupted markets, Petes. And, most of us didn't get blinded by supply side economics, but went on to read Sen etc. Another thing we understand is that with cheap retrofits we would have extra ferries right now and for years to come, easily recouping the cost. Also, they were built here and thus the project has spin off benefit etc. If the BC Liberals hadn't let them sit for political gain and then sell them for next to NOTHING, we would not have had a net loss.

Anyway, good article and I really trust that eventually the RCMP willl investigate many of these deals. They do have a commercial crime unit. And, as the tide turns over the border and their justice system kicks in as it already has begun even more will come to the fore. They're not going to get away with it forever.

Economics is complicated because those who run the system (for their own benefit) have used a set of constructs to make economics sinuous, convoluted and divorced from any ethical considerations. We don't exist in isolation and so are subject to the vagaries of the aforementioned capital markets. But don't believe any of that invisible hand stuff. Did anyone else read the story here about bonds issued by BC Ferries at 25% interest? The most expensive money I could get from my bank was 18.8%. I suppose we could have gone to a Loans Til Payday to build new ships overseas. $710 million at 25%...sounds like a cool $175 million we spent in interest payments, and nary a Fast Cat to show for it. I know that BC Ferry Corp is private, but is not the province still the sole shareholder? Should we be upset at this kind of behaviour?
Knowledge is important, but I don't think the voodoo that passes for economics counts.

So, getting the shaft in a P3 is different from getting the shaft in a Government built project like the North Island Highway that went hundreds of millions of dollars over budget, how?

Because taxpayers pay out more money for a P3 screwup than they do for a gov't screwup.

to NoLeftNutter

The island highway project, from campbell river, through nanaimo (including the nanaimo parkway), and the upgrade to the victoria approaches were all part of one massive project...and it was budgeted at just over $1 billion...and the finally tally was just over $1 billion...
Just after the 2001 election, when it was still popular to bash the NDP, even the media suggested the island highway project was extremely successful.
In contrast, the socreds Coquihalla project was budgeted at $400 million...it ended up costing over a billion.

pekes, the real ferry fiasco didn't occur until your Liberal buddies were elected as government.

They took basically sound ferries that required some retrofitting and would have allowed them to rot if they weren't aluminum, until they could find a buyer willing to pay less than scrap value who could make such as offer with a straight face.

Ignorance is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't hold a leg to blind idealogy such as you displayed above.

The Fasycats would be OK if BC Ferries didn't insist on bow doors! 80 more tons on a weight sensitive craft was really the last straw.

Again it wasn't the boats per se, but the policy thet were forcrd to fit!

Frank Sez Who? PKelly, where do you get your information from?

As has been monetioned, private companies pay higher interest rates on loans than the gov't does.

That additional cost is passed on to the taxpayer.

Anybody with the slightest education should know that, as we can neither create, or destroy anything, all costs begin and end in eternity. Therefore we don't know the real costs of anything, but power elites substitute figures conveniently taken from endless columns and calling them "bottom lines" for the benefit of self appointed, special interest sectors.

The stated purpose of economics is "The management and distribution of scarce resources." Which means, Mom distributing dinner to a large family, so that everybody has enough.

In short, economics are not supposed to be a foodfight at the table, as neoclassical economists would like to see it, calling it the "the competitive equilibrium of the global marketplace". In short "BS with trimmings", but a democratic distribution system for the benefit of all.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Frnak;
That's not an answer. Cost of borrowing is only one element of the process. A higher cost of borrowing could easily be offset by other, higher costs. Taxpayers could be gettting the shaft in either case...

to 'NoLeftNutter'

(had to verify my numbers...original budget for the coquihalla in 1979 was $250 million, and was finally completed in 1990 at a total cost of over $400 million)

Have you lived in BC all your life? How about the last 25 years? If so, you would remember the big announcements that the Socreds made when they launched the Coquihalla project. It was meant to open in time for expo86. Well it was late (opened in 1990). Had they been realistic about the highway, it might have been less of a scandal, but they insisted on their price estimates even though the freeway was carved into the mountains.

In retrospect, the gap between $250 million and $415 million is small in todays money, but the scale of that over-run in the 80's is bigger than the fast-cat overrun...and grossly inaccurate. The island highway project was on time and on budget all the way. When Harcourt launched the project in 1992, he suggested the whole multi-phase project would cost $1.1 billion and take about 10 years.

Franks right, the cost of borrowing is much cheaper for gov than private money . We should budget maybe 6 billion for the RAV by the time we pay interest etc. Anyway RAV was such a good investment no company would touch it, so we are robbing the BC civil service pension fund. Hey do you also know that we have guaranteed rider ship targets to RAVCO , you know they have to make a profit, so if the Gov's estimate of rider ship is off RAVCO can raise fares or come back to the taxpayer for subsidies . What a joke the entire project is over 400 mil over budget already .

As far as the fast cats, they are getting refitted in North Van as we speak. Their is a deal in the works with the city of Nanaimo to have to harbor to harbor walk on service between Van downtown. The Liberals were so quick to embarrass the NDP they screwed us all, it will be quite sad to see them in service everyday with Washington Marine making big bucks.

jesterjogger, did you have to mention the shit eating grin, no wonder they kept him out of the ads and away from the public.

His DWI pics are great, the guy is so wasted.

Anyway

Cheers

Typical nonsense from the CCPA and creator of translink.

The Alberta government is also in love with P3's but unfortunately they have not been able to explain how it saves money. However it does meet the criteria of of being ideologically pure for the neo-con agenda.

My favourite story is of a P3 hospital in Britain built over an old mineshaft, they had a big rain and the hospital filled with rats.

Their was a P3 project in Maple Ridge to rebuild the town square, 4 bil ballooned into 12 mil and the city was left holding the bad, hell of allot of money for a small town.

The RAV project is another perfect example of a 'P3' going horribly wrong - and still no disclosure of the Construction Contract or the Concession Agreement. SERCO is out - public pension funds are in. How can this be? Where is the accountability? This is an entirely different project than the Bored Tunnel that was approved, with different players, and it's already 400 MILLION over budget before they have started...we'll be paying millions for this for decades if they build it this way.

Grumpy: The main problem with BC's fast ferries was their unreliability. My wife and I and our dogs had a wonderful vacation aboard BC Ferries, up the Inside Passage to Rupert and over to the Charlottes, and back, with superb and courteous service from all. Even aboard the rusty old tub over to the Charlottes, on which the staff expressed the hope that they would get a newer boat once the fast ferries were fully in service. But on the way home we had the misfortune to take a fast ferry from Duke Pt to Vancouver. The dogs were required to remain inside the car, and we were not allowed below deck during transit to look in on the dogs due to the "risk in event of an accident." Up in the passenger area it was jam-crowded and there were insufficient seats for all passengers. The only open-deck area was very small, shoulder to shoulder, and the twits who were smoking cigs and doobies made it impossible for abstainers to remain outside. It was supposed to be a short trip so we figured we could tolerate it, but then the piece de resistance: the engines died halfway across.

There we were in the middle of the Strait, drifting in circles without any power whatsoever, for the best part of an hour. Even at this point we put on a brave face, but the senior citizen couple standing next to us were sick, paralyzed with fear - my dear wife used her nursing skills to comfort and calm the old woman down - and many others were grumbling. On arrival at Horseshoe Bay a boatload of passengers gratefully disembarked, and I swear, everyone vowed to never again board a damned "half-assed ferry."

I realize this sort of thing could happen with other ferries too, but this was a chronic condition with the FFs. Trouble seemed to follow these things around and I never could understand why the government insisted on building with unproven and hotly-disputed technology when there were perfectly good blueprints sitting on shelves for boats which had good records of service, and which would have provided perfectly good shipbuilding jobs here. I really can't fault the government for selling them off for scrap - it's like when you buy a "lemon" car, at a certain point you cut your losses, swallow your pride and unload the thing before it bankrupts you. If the new owner can fix it, well, good for them.

Grumpy: But I don't agree with your analogy regarding the Skytrain, and RAV. Skytrain is proven here over almost 20 years; operates well above and below grade where it is not impeded by other traffic; gets passengers to their destinations in a fast manner and thereby encourages people to abandon personal vehicles; is automated so that the tedium of driving the things doesn't drive operators out of their minds (once aboard the Jubilee line in London's Tube the poor operator regaled passengers with a string of off-the-cuff Cockney doggerel and rhyme over the intercom that, while amusing, did give me cause for concern for his mental health); provides good jobs in Canada for its builders and maintenance staff; and will provide Canadian pension plans which have invested in RAV with a solid return on investment. It also seems to me that the Cambie route is preferred to Arbutus, as it's nearer the hospital and city hall, and Cambie is also more likely to see high-density development which will provide the ridership RAV needs. Where's the problem?

LRT operating at grade, in heavy traffic, will be unable to attract the ridership because it won't offer fast service, and it doesn't have the power needed to climb grades. Vancouver used to have the InterUrban tram cars running on rail on the street, but abandoned by BC Electric in 1950 in favour of the electric trolley buses - which work very well to this day. These trolley buses are our LRT, without the rails.

Perhaps if LRT had an established footprint, without cross-traffic at intersections, it could work, but it's too late. Even London's Tube is not all underground at its outer fringes, such as the northwest end of Jubilee or the new Jubilee extension to the new Docklands revitalization area at the other end, where engineers were able to build without vehicle traffic crossing the line - which they couldn't do in the centre of London at Westminster, where vehicular and bus traffic is often at a standstill, hence it's underground. A good chunk of the Northern line at its south end to Sutton is also at grade.

Some sections of the Tube are also well above grade, like Skytrain, as both these systems have the engine power to climb grades - unlike LRT.

Transportation for London is experiencing problems with the private contractor which operates and maintains the Northern line, however. Tony Blair's national government signed a complex contract with the company on this line shortly before handing over jurisdiction over the entire system to London Mayor "Red" Ken Livingstone. TfL is currently having a hissy-fit with the contractor over access for TfL engineers to evaluate maintenance performed by the contractor, and the Northern line has been experiencing serious delays and disruptions to service. I really have no idea whether this is philosophical/political posturing between rivals Ken and Tony over P3s, or a valid grievance, but otherwise I've always had very good experiences on the Tube and wish we could build the same here.

I can't point to a link regarding this, but I seem to recall that the Liberals turned down offers of $50 million apiece for the Fast Cats from Washington Marine Group when they were first elected, only to have WMG acquire them successfully at auction for $5 million apiece.

Something really backfired in that process, though I suspect the Lib's holdout was motivated by a desire to embarrass the NDP further.

Building the fast ferries here was still a far better idea than outsourcing the jobs to Germany. At least most of that money spent by the province stayed here and cycled through the economy and back into taxes. The money we send to Germany is gone.

Kurt:

You are dead wrong about LRT operating at-grade, so typical of the anti light rail spin we are so used to in Vancouver.

SkyTrain is very expensive to build and to operate, so expensive that is has been an almost impossible sell for over 25 years. Only 5 such systems have been built. and not one was allowed to compete against LRT in any systems bidding process.

LRT, operating on reserved rights-of-ways (the Arbutus corridor is a perfect example of a reserved R-O-W), which can be as simple as an HOV lane with rails, and with priority signalling at intersections, has proven to attain commercial speeds with grade seperated systems. Calgary's and Portland's LRT all attain speeds equal to or surpassing SkyTrain line speed, on sections of their track.

Why most light rail systems have slower commercial speeds than SkyTrain (a little secret that TransLink doesn't tell you) is that they have about twice as many stops and/or stations than SkyTrain.
More stations = more ridership. TransLink's Board was told in July that average daily ridership is only about 100,000 to 110,000 a day, which greatly differs from what their web site states! Calgary's LRT carries over 220,000 daily, and Portland's ridership has surpassed 100,000 daily ( far exceeding original estimates).

SkyTrain has a lower performance standard than LRT, though TransLink will not admit it. But the proof is in the pudding, If Skytrain was so good, why, during a time of major public transit construction, no one builds with it?

25 years of anti LRT BS on the Asper/Global media empire and now CORUS, have perverted the truth on LRT. Repeat a lie often enough, it becomes truth.

If we had built with LRT, as originally planned for, we would have a core network of LRT from Vancouver to Whalley and Lougheed Mall, and Richmond, (for the same cost we got SkyTrain from Vancouver to New Westminster). For the cost of the Millennium Line, we could have built LRT from UBC to BCIT, Steveston in richmond, and #10 HWY, in Surrey. For the cost of RAV, we could built LRT to the North Shore & Chilliwack, using existing railway tracks (SkyTrain can't do this) and a new line from Vancouver to the Tri-cities.

Tell me how SkyTrain is better? Skytrain is a generational fast ferry fiasco!

A note:

In the UK, proponents of a grade seperated transit, for a urban transit project, took out newspaper ads telling of the advantages of grade seperation over on-street LRT, including faster speeds, higher capacity, etc. Local LRT types took them to court under the British Trades Descriptions Act, for false advertising and won! The proponets of the benefits of grade seperation could not prove their case!

Kurt:

More nonsense, it is SkyTrain that can not climb steep grades. LRT can, the maximum grade in sheffield UK is 10%, in Lisbon 13.5%.

London's tube trains, because of their long dragging weight, like regular railways, are restricted to about a maximum of 4% - 1 in 25 for you Brits.

Kurt read somethin on the subject!

Siamdave wrote:

Check out COMER (Committee on Monetary and Economic Reform). Lots of amazing facts on money creation and unnecessary government debt to banks:
http://www.comer.org/Boc/Boctut.htm

Also, the CCPA (Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives) has various good publications on P3s:

Evidence shows public-private partnerships not a solution, experts
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/index.cfm?act=news&do=Article&call=567&pA=BB736455

The P3 approach to financing transit projects will cost us more
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/index.cfm?act=news&do=Article&call=630&pA=BB736455

CCPA study calls for independent public sector comparison of RAV P3 by Auditor General
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/index.cfm?act=news&do=Article&call=152&pA=BB736455

Note re above: That page link doesn't work, so just go to http://www.comer.org and navigate to the appropriate sections and tutorials.

You get better everytime I read you Fait. Proof that there is some wisdom that comes with age. :-) For sure you're living proof that there's more to smarts than formal education. (And that is not to denigrate all formal education. :-)

And there being even a finite total economic product by society(ies), when a powerful and privileged class/group at the head of the table is allowed to serve itself first, and takes obscenely more than its fair and equitable share, stuffing its pockets and briefcases, or otherwise wasting it, it means as the meal is passed around the table, there is progressively less for everybody else-, until it gets to the lowest class strata who have no real power, but depend on everybody elses good graces, who must make do with but the crumbs and the spillage, or begging from the other guests to the table.

However much we turn away and try not to see it, or more, like classical economics and many in the daily life of the new (fascist) neo-conservative world order, to justify the theft at the head of the table and declare it the norm and right, it exists nonetheless. (An insistance that the world is really flat, does not make it true, anymore than the concept of virgin birth. Allowing that there is turkey baster birth possibly. :-) And it will continue to go on being the norm and "scientific economics", only so long as folks pretend they don't see it, and allow it to continue.

It, like many things in the current world, needs to change-, big time. And when there is a big enough "collective" decision to do so, that is the day it will suddenly be found unscientific, a travesty, and even a kind of social crime.

If it were to the lefties, there would be no Expo, Skytrain, B-Line or RAV, not to mention Yaletown. More welfare is the only option. Give a street person $1,000,000 and a four bedroom house and he won't be poor anyomre.

Coyote, I hope you check out the comer.org site!

Coyote-SLASH-Working Man,

You're truth gushes like rivers in Autumn.

Thanx again Tyee! once again, an excellent piece of news that ""really"" matters.

working man:

If we had the lefties, we would have had better transit, ay a much chraper cost!

Working Man says: "Give a street person $1,000,000 and a four bedroom house and he won't be poor anymore."

It's okay, though, to give to a politicians' "friend" who has plenty already...through legally or morally bankrupt ways...?

Working man,

I realize that you were using hyperbole in your post, so I'll leave alone the four bedroom house and the million bucks.

But your first point is that lefties would have preferred not having Expo, Skytrain, etc.

Did you mean all lefties? Or just an extreme few?

I am close to the political center, but veer slightly left on most provincial matters.

I am - and always was - a big fan of those projects, and most of the lefties I know feel much the same way.

Heck, I know a few righties who opposed those projects, so I'm not sure that I share your belief that support for large public projects is a left vs. right argument.

But there are differences in how those projects are funded, how they are shaped, and how they are constructed.

And guess what? Those in power tend to - in the words of Brian Mulroney - "dance with the lady what brung ya'".

And sometimes that dance is at our expense.

This article points that out, but we could have a thousand such articles that illuminate the larger phenomenon.

Funny thing with the RAV supporters including the media in general. We have this massive expense that is going to be forced on taxpayers via property taxes and we had no real open discussion of alternatives. Any thoughtful comment like Grumpy's was dismissed and loathed.

It was the most anti democratic process I ever witnessed, they just kept sending it back to translink for another vote until they got the result they wanted. ( can you say trade off's and backroom intimidation)

Then the MSM, CKNW was the worst.(6 radio talk hosts and they all supported RAV) Their was a campaign to attack and plant fear and hatred into anyone criticizing RAV, The fear was Oh if we don't get RAV we won't get anything, nothing will happen. This message was hammered home day after day, yea those against RAV would never get anything done bla bla bla. When in fact those opposed to RAV had many cost effective intelligent ideas, no one ever advocated no new Transit line

Excuse me what the media basically said that if we don't go with Liberal Friendly corporations than we won't get transit.

That was the fear part, NO RAV, NO NEW LINE.

The second was to attack and paint anyone opposed to RAV as a lefty, some crazed ideologue that just hates Gordo and is trying to make him look bad. The media ranted about how dysfunctional Translink was and their was a real hate on for Derek Corrigan, (dragging up his past, telling everyone he does not even ride Transit etc and has a nice car, that he can talk as Burnaby benefits from Skytrain, just the basic attack against an outspoken critic) Then their was Sell out Larry Campbell holding hands with the Media showing his frustration over the process, then they went after the locals calling them NIMBY's . Basically anyone opposing this line was against progress and some kind of Lefty.

When in fact allot of well minded citizens came from all backgrounds and feel that this is the wrong line in the wrong place. Their was ever a protest by business owners who were lied to regarding the cut and cover method.

They should write a book over this process, A Civics handbook. "How to use Fear and Hatred to get unpopular projects done even with mass opposition"

So don't be to hard on working man , he is just one of the victims of this Media, one of the drooling puppets of CKNW who probably cries also over high taxes.

Stuart, well said!

Davey-Boy, "Or just an extreme few?"

Guilty as charged, I think the public paying for circuses like Expo and the Olympics is an outrageous waste of time and money. We'd be better off building homes for the poor as Working Man suggests.

As for building mass transit, sure, as long as its planned well and used by the public. I wouldn't be in favour of a Skytrain from GC's house to Howe Street obviously.

Funny when you have Liberal friendly corporations and mega projects you get a blank cheque. But when it comes to teachers or building low income housing its war. Image a Transit system where someone in the Tri cities will have to ride to the end of the line to transfer to the other track and same for folks coming from Richmond.

Any new line should have connected at Commercial Drive ( Broadway station) That way they could transfer DT or go to New West or the New Millennium line. Image the cost savings off not having to tunnel under down town and false creek. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for that site, oronym. I will spend some considerable time reading it, I can see.

A good day to you. :-)

For all you mass transit types.

Cost of RAV Vancouver - Richmond #3 Rd. - Airport $1.9 billion (estimated summer 2005)

Cost of LRT from Vacouver (via Arbutus Corridor) to Steveston(Richmond)& Massey tunnel via CNR tracks and the airport. $900 million

Which system will attract the most ridership? Which system services the most destinations?
And don't say RAV/Skytrain under Cambie St.

pkelly:

Your history of the Coquihalla needs to be corrected.

The Coquihalla project was announced in 1977 by the new Social Credit government, and work began in 1979. The Hope-to-Merritt portion was supposed to complete by 1988. In fact, it did complete EARLY in 1986, in time for Expo 86.

It went way over budget because the Bennett government made the decision, early on, that it would complete the Hope-to-Merritt portion by 1986. So they rushed the construction and as a result, many parts of it went overbudget. They also ignored warnings about certain construction difficulties.

It was a result of the construction rush that the government justified the tolls. Sadly, we've been paying ever since even though the added costs of the speedy construction have long since been re-paid. Every government since has been addicted to the revenue.

The Merritt-to-Kamloops portion was completed about 1989 on time, and the Merritt-to-Kelowna portion later still (it was an afterthought anyway.)

I know. I proudly worked on the project, and drove the highway on opening day, the Victoria Day weekend of 1986 in my Z28. I still have the bumper sticker that many people got that said "I Drove the Coquihalla on Opening Day". Only Socred voters had it on their cars, as coincidentally, it was election time. Funny how those things work.

The Coquihalla highway is probably #3 in the annals of construction history for difficulty, and the dedication that its many private contractors spent on the project. It's accomplishments are only exceeded by the amazing roadbuilders of the Fraser Canyon highway, and the Sea-to-Sky highway in the 1950's.

I don't think P3 projects guarantee a success or a failure of a project. But this is an article that demonstrates that both good and bad can come out of these decisions.

Good link oronym, thanks

Grumpy stated...

I stongly (but respectfully) disagree with you. You cannot measure the success of a transit system on ridership numbers and construction costs alone.

The SkyTrain line has been successful in helping us shape our region. For example, if Metrotown mall was located in most other North American cities, it would need to be surrounded by endless acres of parking. Skytrain has a made a significant difference in development choices all along the Expo line.

As well, an at grade rail system through the city interferes with, and is impeded by regular automobile traffic. Think of how many commuter and shipping hours are saved by having a system that is wholly independent of the road network.

This also makes the system less likely to suffer costly accidents. The accidents that an "at grade" LRT get into are not factored into general operating costs.

Although you question Skytrain's reliability, how often during a calender year does it shut down?

Besides, why are you even picking on Skytrain? It is not even the system of choice anymore.

Instead, the BC Liberals have chosen to go with some odd system from SNC Lavalin. Which of course, raises the whole question of compatability.

Could someone please tell me just how many Vancouverites are going to use RAV? Would you pack all your kids, suitcases and your invalid Mother in -law from your front door, down the street a couple blocks to load them all onto a bus to go to Cambie street to load them onto the RAV train to the airport to catch an airplane to your holiday in Disneyland? No!

Would a Vancouver business man leave his home a couple hours early just to catch a bus or two then the RAV line to get to the airport to catch the early morning flight to Toronto.
No!

Would you want to do any of this just to get to the airport never mind get home on your return? Not likely.

Then who will benefit from the RAV line?Politicians showing off their grand project to "rip off foreign investors" flying in to buy up more of what we own and shouldn't be selling. Relatively few airport workers? Relative compared to the hundreds of thousands that daily fight their way on clogged by ways twice a day from Abbotsford, Mission, Langley and the Tri cities because there is insufficient and unworkable transportation from those areas.

This, along with the 2010 Olympics is the biggest single "self grandiosing" stunt of this corrupt Liberal Government and it's elitist toadies and we will all pay for it until the end of time!

JWLawrie wrote,

The RAV line was a good idea. But the route was a poor choice. It should have went down the Arbutus corridor where it would have been within striking distance of UBC. Think of how many students would have been taken from their cars!

Instead the "creme de la creme" got their way.

Bah!