Scheck amplifies the only one side if disagreement without focussing on the reality of the confronted issues or indeed presenting any solutions.

The clear fact is that there are highlighted issues that have festered and have not been resolved.

Without question the current negotiation system is broken, but at the same time, year over year, the government has substantially increased the budget for education. We have more money in the provincial budget than we ever have had.

The BCTF is not the sole owner of education delivery and never should be. What we nned to do is set a level playing field very quickly by review by all the education stake holders. This exercise must be inclusive, not narrow.

The Court ruling is interesting but also provides all parties a sense of pause. Schreck is dead wrong in his assessment. While the freezing of the BCTF assets is interesting such is by no means debilitating.

What all parties need to do is to get back to work and deal with the issues identified.

Why do we have teachers complaining that text books are not available when clearly budgets are identified for such?

Why do we not have desks when budgets are identified.

Why and so on!

We can only resolve these issues through effective baseline assessments and address outstanding problems head on.

However, in now way should any organized labout entity have sole right in this issue. The education of our kids is way too important and must be neutral.

What we need is to quickly resolve these issues through careful inclusive analysis and adopt table solutions.

Obviously the NDP inspired collective negotiation system does not work and must be abolished. So should the BCPSEA and the College of Teachers. Likely the whole School District system needs a review as well.

I think the Court struck a brillant balance and the next move must be initated by all parties.

Continued opposition will not gain anything!

The roots of this struggle go back many years, as successive governments, both left and right have cut funding to the education system.

In Vancouver, we lost first, administrative positions at the school board. People in these positions were responsible for subject areas. They instituted and facilitated professional development and acted as advocates and contacts for their subject areas.

When this wasn't enough, we lost our Techers Centre, the heart of our professional development program. The scope of professional development was reduced. The loss of the Centre was accompanied by the loss of the Teacher' Professional Library, a centre for borrowing curriculum materials and professional books and journals.

As this was happening, the budget for school libraries was being cut back dramatically.

Vice principal time was cut back, so that some schools lost their VP. Others had so little time, they might as well not have been there.

Finally came increased class sizes, loss of teacher-libraian time(In Victoria, elementary school librarians were eliminated entirely) and loss of support for special needs students.

Another root cause of the current situation is the interference by both the NDP and Liberal governments.

In 1994, the NDP government, did away with local bargaining for anything that would cost money,leaving local school boards with mostly housekeeping items to negotiate.

The government then tried to negotiate a new provincial contract. In doing so, however, they tried to do away with much of the contract language that union locals had negotiated over the years, often giving way on salary items to gain better learning conditions for students and better working conditions for themselves.

The NDP government did not want to take the best contract language from all the contracts around the province and put it together in a provincial contract. They wanted to take the lowest common denominator, or a middle ground.

While this would be good for local who had not been able to negotiate good contracts, it penalized those locals who had, and who had in the process given up some salary increases for better learning and working conditions.

The BCTF's position was that it would not negotiate a provincial contract that gave poorer contract language than locals already had. Since the provincial government would not agree, contract talks stalled and the existing local contracts were carried over.

The above is why Campbell's Liberals say that contracts have no been successfully negotiated for the last 10 or 11 years.

During Campbell's first term in office, he scrapped the contracts that had been negotiatated in good faith over decades.

Past governments, both left and right have trampled on the right of workers to free collective bargaining.
-Daryl

IMHO, Justice Brown took the least punitive course open to her. Whether or not we agree the ruling was fair - and I don't - still, her role is to interpret and uphold the law, not to pass judgement upon its worthiness.

Yes, the teachers are breaking the law. But it is an unjust law, to be sure. Thus, they are correct in practicing Civil Disobedience in protest and in demanding the law be changed.

We are now in the public arena phase of that protest, and if we all stand with the BCTF, Campbell is hooped, regardless of how many legal straws he may try to reach for.

sdgreen, I read your other post which answered my question about how you would improve the current education system. Surprise!! I agreed more of it than you would probably think. I thank you for not laying the blame on the teachers. What a refreshing change!! Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to respond to it as I would like since I've been kind of busy trying to help teachers understand the ramifications all these recent events (although I did have time to write a very long and emotional post elsewhere).

But, in regards to your post above, I have never believed that the BCTF has ever thought teachers (because we are the BCTF, after all) solely owned the right to make decisions about our public education system. I do, however, believe that if teachers (through the BCTF) do not address the crisis in education, who will? I try very hard to keep informed on these matters but I've never seen so many suggestions on how to help improve the current system than I have in the past few days. This all might have been avoided if BCPSEA (aka the government) had just made an attempt at negotiations at even one of those 35 bargaining meetings, don't you think?

I would suspect that, with all your ideas for improvement, we will see your name as one of the participants of Ms. Bond's proposed roundtable? If so, if the Liberal government promises to implement some of your suggestions will you be able to trust them to follow through? Or will you look at their past record (i.e. BC Rail, etc.) and have problems believing their promises?

I know of a teacher who told me this incredible story about an administrator and text books. The teacher was using an excellent math text book for his math class. He went to his principle for funds to rebind these texts for further future use. The administrative officer said no and he then at the end of the school year collected these same text books and sent them to be destroyed. This same principle then (with the advise of his teachers not to)proceeded to buy a class set of math texts books at a cost of three thousand dollars that were both teacher unfriendly and studednt unfriendly. The teacher decided to use his own materials to teach math and these same text books that were purchased to this day remain on the shelf unused.

It's obvious to me that this judge is covering her ass to protect her judicial reputation when this draconian ruling is reversed on appeal. As in the middle ages when witch-hunters plucked an individual from society to be ostracised and shunned and eventually destroyed; such is the intended fate of the teachers union.
Isolate, then destroy. With these tactics the judicial system's reputation will continue to degrade in Canadian society.

You know I can tolerate the no strike pay of this order because the teachers are saying that their disobedience goes beyond the usual employee/employer disagreements. They are adamant in saying their actions are against the legeslative hammer that is being used to force them to work in a system they believe is detremental to students with both short and long term implications(ie classroom safety and getting a fully "functional" education). Where I have problems with Justice Brown's rulings is in the no advertisements allowing the teachers' equal footing to get their message to the people of this province and with the no cummunications between the BCTF executive and membership about said issues. How is the BCTF to get instruction from the people who they are working for? Aren't the teachers allowed the same freedoms of speech/association that other unions, associations, clubs, individuals even corporations? Is this not "muzzling" gov't critics? Also I find the no third party help rule a bit too vague in a number of ways. Having said this I still applaud the Justice's attempts while stuck in a mess that to me, the courts shouldn't be put into, especially with the frequency that is happening with this gov't.

regarding the court ruling yesterday. i heard about it as i participated in the afternoon shift of picketing at my school (where, by the way, many many cars were honking and waving support - thanks so much for that!). we were all puzzled, as so many people were assuming (this was the bill good show) that we would immediately go back to work because we don't get our $50.00 strike pay. does anyone actually think that we are standing in the rain and not in our classrooms doing what we love so we can collect $50.00 a day? sorry, but that is not what this is about and it just made everyone on my picket line even more determined to stay out there. so please, if you have time today, drive by your local school and thank those teachers standing out there in the cold for standing up for what they believe in - public education that is for everyone. gotta go now and drop off a tarp for the morning shift!

One of B.C.'s dailies goes back to the time of the Solidarity movement and quotes the media-darling of the day, Jack Munro, on how a general strike could not have been handled.

It's doubtful that the province was ever better-positioned for such an action but workers were sold out by a blustering loudmouth who was found wanting at a time of desperate need.

Perhaps a general strike is the only answer to challenge a government that places little value on education as it hammers workers with its puppet courts.

Am I contemptuous? You bet I am!!

There is naught to do today, teachers and supporters, but have some fun with the bind we find ourselves in regarding communications. Towards that end, some of us are taking on "secret agent" names and wearing trench coats to the lines today. (I myself will be "Bondage" in deference to our Minister of Ed.) Between the very real stresses of this Orwellian pickle, we amuse ourselves with images of Jinny Simms being whisked around in disguise, passed from interceptor to interceptor, and making calls from a pay phone.... Not a funny situatiion I realize, but laughter keeps us going.

Some of us will also be wearing gags on the picket line today.

Why are so many people afraid of a general strike. Well Campbell & Co. are, why?

Well bullies hate to be confronted because they are mostly moral cowards. Also tax revenue declines with a general strike. Campbell & Co. just loves taxes, especially from the poor.

Let's go further - a boycott of the Asper/Global nedia empire and CORUS! These Liberal sucking media giants must be taught a lesson.

Bravo Teachers!! Thank you for having the courage to stand up and say GIMME! GIMME GIMME! while hiding behind children.

Once again, sleazy and transparent. But great comic relief.

See you on the picket, i mean protest line!

Overall, a very interesting piece, Daryl, with which I much agree.

Now, historically, there was and marginally remains a degree to which the NDP can be described as "left", I suppose. Certainly about as much as one can characterize Tony Blair's Labour as "left".

These things are typically some relative, of course, to whom or what we are comparing them.

But by and large, it's been a long time past, other than in the sentiments of our historical memory, I think, that we could characterize the NDP as "left" with any great degree of accuracy.

Certainly, again in my view, it would be more accurate to have said in your quoted piece, "The roots of this struggle go back many years, as successive governments, both right and righter have cut funding to the education system."

And I say this because, though there is some difference in the philosophical minutia of the major "parties of capitalism", they are all fundamentally agreed upon the system of ruling class economic rule itself, and upon the need for a legal framework to control labour. The NDP no less than the Neoconazi Lib/Cons/Socred Grand Alliance.

Mostly, the difference is that typically, the NDP will administer their medicine with a little sugar or honey, to ease it going down. Whereas the Neoconazis don't give a schmuck how bitter you find the pill.

At the end of the day however, the "result" from both sides lead in the same direction, and serve the economic ruling class. For both equally fear their disapproval and withdrawl of cooperation-, though it is more typically directed at the NDP, for being "perceived" the wimpier and most sympathetic to the working class.

And I am not saying that it is unnecessary to play the game of the lesser of evils. Sometimes there is no other practical choice.

But there really is a need for us all to face up to what is really happening here, in all its relative complexity-, for it is the mud, the blood and the beer in which we are mired.

Other than that, I generally agreed with your comment above.

Now, I'm away for the day, including to a support demo for teachers later this afternoon.

Victory to the teachers, and to us all.

What really amazes me in this whole issue is that the government still has it's collective head up its ass.
First the BCSPEA WON"T BARGAIN
Then the teachers commence small job action to try and wake them up.
Then the Labour Board makes a ruling and before you can take a full breath the government passes a bogus law while still refusing to bargain.(collusion?)
So the teachers have no recourse but to shut down, by whatever means necessary.
All the while the labour minister (another joke just as he was with the lumber dispute) is saying you should obey the law and go back to work. Excuse me?
Then this bogus bargaining unit goes to court to get an illegal strike ruling (when in fact it is a walkout)They get the ruling and Mikey says you should do the right thing and go back to work.
Then in the penalty phase the judge orders assets frozen (which is so far from what the government wants its actually funny)while admitting in the order that she is not familiar with the workings of what is going on. My hat is off to the judge because she had to respond to the law however bogus it was. Ms Sims says they are still ready tobargain at any time. And what does Mikey do? Instead of immediately having the parties back to the table he says "we will go back to the table the day that the teachers return to work" Now I don't know what the rest of you think but the ball is in the ministers of education and labours' court. They are the ones who precipated this whole thing by refusing to bargain in good faith and used their offices to pass this bogus law.And by their previous actions (lies)they are not to be trusted unless they make the first move.
So now mister minister take a walk outside your mind and do the right thing and while you are at it REPEAL this idiot law.
And Gordo I suggest you get back here in a hurry and fix this thing we all know you started. I do not advocate General Strikes unles they are needed for extreme measures and up till this point I haven't. But if you do not get these people back to the table by monday morning I will be contacting everyone I know in the labour movement to advocate one. And not just a one daay stoppage either.

Yes, yes correct - Gimme better teaching conditions, gimme honest bargaining, gimme realistic class sizes for today's needs, gimme an education system that will better deal with children's needs.

Gary' please contact everyone you know and organize a general strike. Maybe the strike could last forever and we would finally diminish the influence of Public Sector Unions on our economy.
Bring it on mt friend, we anxiously await.

Blonde Pitbull: you highlight one of the worst aspects of the Justice Brown ruling against B.C.T.F.

How can British Columbia tolerate such retrograde injustice against 38,000 of our most honoured professionals? Are we going to tolerate this in a just society?

Teachers not allowed to speak to the public? Teachers not allowed to discuss their concerns with colleagues? Is it the B.C.T.F. or education itself, I wonder, which is such a threat to the Gordon Campbell Empire?

What has B.C. become, Guantanamo Bay?

I wish B.C. Teachers strength, courage and unity in a fight which touches every British Columbian.

BTW, I loved the Bob Kreiger illustration to Dave Schrecks story.

At last, the police mug shot of Gordon Campbell, drunk and under arrest, has found its rightful niche in the galleries of our province.

Where is the BC general strike? Don't all civil servants realise that Gordo will give them the same treatment this spring as he is teachers? Doesn't being whipped and chained, gagged and bound spell disaster to everyone who faces any future negotiations with Gordo Mussolini?
If there's any time to really apply the pressure and set precedence for what is to come, let's pull out all the stops to shut-down BC temporarily the Neovo Fascists in Victoria permanently.

The unions of BC have to hang together now or they'll hang separately later.

BCMary: I agree with you its the first picture of Gordo that made me smile, even laugh, in soo long!
Frank: AGREED.

here's a thought to consider. my wife works in student support services as a speech therapist. for those who do not know, it takes a Masters degree to practice speech therapy in BC. depending on the year, her caseload might be forty kids, or it might be 130. it's an itinerant position, where therapists have to use their own vehicles to drive from one school to the next, which can often be twenty minutes or so apart. when i asked her if there are limits on how many kids she sees, she said 'of course not. you just deal with it.' she says that many teachers LOVE to see the speech therapist coming because it means that for an hour or so they have a 'problem child' taken out of their classroom.
now, i ask you - would the teachers EVER go on strike to support ten or so lowly speech therapists and their workload? of course, some here will argue that the therapists need a stronger union, blah-blah, but virtually all of the professionals i know (lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc) put in HUGE hours of work. this isn't a pissing contest of who works the hardest.

Another thought – would teachers still be bitching if their class size was cut in half – not initially, they wouldn’t, but in ten years’ time the same disaffected, mad at the system types who dominate unions (and I’ve been a member of three of ‘em) rise to the top and preach the kind of overthrow the system militant crap that we hear on these boards? life is too short to be mad at the system, 24/7. I’m sure most teachers would love the luxury of time that most Tyee posters seem to have.

a solidarity rally, when union membership is at a historic low and 95 percent of all British Columbians have never even heard of Solidarity? in your dreams. this strike continues for another week and Gordo's popularity will skyrocket. many parents have had enough.

and people wonder why gordo raised the spectre of a teacher's strike in the last weekend of the election...

This is a hugely critical weekend for the teachers. Support has peaked, the silence from the BC Fed and the NDP is deafening, (yep, just like Jack 'i like my spotted owls deep-fried' Munro - now THERE was the sellout!), and public patience will be pretty much exhausted. take the high road, here, make the first move to conciliation, and you'll win public support. protract the strike, a la TELUS, CBC, the NHL, etc, and you'll open the door to massive privatization.

Blonde' ever seen a picture of Jinny Simms in the morning ? Or perhaps looked in the mirror.

Another Schreck article... yawn.... whatever.
Isn't this the guy that was advising Glennocchio?

Mr. Schreck suggests that:

"the Campbell government could defuse the conflict for the sake of education by offering some small compromise."

Unfortunately, based on their track record, not to mention their recent actions and rhetoric, it is extremely difficult for any reasonable to assume that they have any desire to defuse anything. In fact, it is much easier to assume that they want to light a fuse and blow up every act of collective bargaining they can set their legislative gunsights on.

Some might even call such a thing, if it were true, a secret and duplicitous plan.

Point is, like many have said so well above, folks must stick together, now more than ever.

______
My take on the solidarity thing is here:
http://tinyurl.com/calc7

Ron, now I know you are selectively reading these posts. You pick out only that part which you think can inflame others. But you see, I know that you are completely ignorant of the facts. You are also ignorant of the labour movement. You don't understand the difference between Strike, Lockout, and Job Action Civil Disobedience. I am further convinced by your ignorance that you are another Gordon Campbell Lackie.
If you understood what is going on here, and THE REAL consequences of a general strike you would not make such bold, ignorant statements to try and inflame me.
The only reason I am replying to your ignorance is to try to give you a finite measure of education. You have shown that your mind is so insulted that you actually beleive yourself. I guess your teachers in school couldn't get through to you just like the ones here are unable to. Ah well Ron, maybe someday.......

sthrendyle: you are astonishing. For gosh sakes, speech therapists are part and parcel of what the B.C.T.F. wants to talk about ... but the Campbell government will not, so far, do that.

The coldness with which you refer to those special needs kids as problem kids, is something you should think about. And why wouldnt teachers LOVE to see the speech therapists coming to assist a special needs student? You scare me.

Please, get behind the ones who are trying to make things better in education!

The problem with swatting mosquitos is you get bug guts on your hand so shoo, ronE, shoo....

"but virtually all of the professionals i know (lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc) put in HUGE hours of work."

Governments don't micro-manage most professions. Even where they're directly involved they listen to the people working in those professions. I know in the army the politicians didn't decide how many recruits could be under the direct command of a lieutenant or captain. Politicians didn't decide how many hours of training there would be in a day etc. They let the army professionals make all those decisions.

Glad to hear your wife is able to be as good a speech therapist for 130 kids as she is for 40. I guess she magically creates extra hours in a day so that her time with each doesn't suffer when she's assigned more students.

sthrendyle, a few "mad at the system types" is one thing, but to spread that generalization across 28000 individuals is overly simplistic and shows that you have tunnel vision regarding unions. Give the teachers some credit, i'm sure that they have the capacity to recognize union "trouble-makers" and stay clear of their politics and focus on what really matters.

The ruling seems to me (a non-lawyer) to be a legal quagmire. Clearly it's acceptable to rule against flagrantly flouting a law. On the other hand, the Charter expressly grants (acknowledges) the following fundamental freedoms:

"Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association. "

I don't understand how the ruling can legally abrogate those freedoms (FUNDAMENTAL, remember). The teachers' actions are acts of conscience based on individual belief and opinion. The picket lines have been models of peaceful assembly and association. The ruling to deny the BCTF (the elected body representing teachers) the right to communicate with their membership appears, at least on the surface, to contravene Charter Rights, which trump all other laws.

I am not a legal scholar, and I acknowledge the need to obey laws; however, a person of conscience has a fundamental freedom - indeed, in a democracy, a duty - to express her or his disagreement with those laws. Not the least aspect of this case is that the laws were retrofitted to match the ideological goals of the government.

I think this ruling is a black eye on the justice system. I don't believe it is even legal.

A general strike is the only answer, in my opinion, because this gov't won't stop unless the people who own it start suffering via loss of income because their employees are out. Very sad state we are in, but that is what happens when you act like a thug instead of a public servant.

As far as the media goes...
I can hardly wait until CANWEST is on strike and some of these parrots have their own labour battle.

I've always honoured picket lines, but when I was last put on strike by my union, I thought the $50 per day was damn important. This has got to be incredibly hard on the rank and file. So hopefully, if the union keeps them out, they have a game plan to win.

A poster above thinks that a higher court will reverse this ruling on appeal. Is there an appeal in progress?

If there isn't a legal way to reverse the government's machinations, they have to rely on popular support to make the government move off its "legally correct" position. I assume that the union is doing intensive polling right now to see if their methods are tactically sound, as opposed to ideologically pure.

It may be that the numbers will show that the union should take the deal now, for the sake of its members if nothing else.

That doesn't mean the union should give up. If the union takes this crappy deal, they could still spend the next two years -- the length of the imposed contract -- to effectively sell its agenda to the public. Find a way to make yourselves a popular cause, fix or spin the rightwingers' criticisms, and thus become a major election issue where both sides have to support you.

bc mary - i've supported the strike up to this point. but today, the tide is turning. the points have been made - and public support has peaked. again, WHERE is your beloved NDP leader? we will see if the BCTF puts their own interests first, or takes down the picket lines, and goes back to the bargaining table. as i've said, there are alternative education delivery systems out there, and (especially many of the faith-based ones) they are not onerously expensive. teachers DO NOT exclusively own their profession.

alas, re special needs - go into a staff room at lunch and listen to some teachers 'debrief.'
a teacher i know once referred to some of her little ADD/FAS kids as "FITH" - short for 'Fuct in the Head.' i'm not making this stuff up.

Justice Brown can only do what the law allows her to do. What we need to do is understand why the Campbell Liberals are so interested in driving a union to do what the BCTF is doing. Teachers are generally a very conservative, law abiding bunch, yet here we have 40,000 of them defying the law. It took a lot of goading to get to this point. Why did the government allow -even encourage through chronic underfunding and bad faith bargaining- this to happen? The only reason I can see is that this government is not interested in fixing the education system; instead they want it to break down. When most parents become disillusioned with the public education system, private schooling will become the norm and the Province can cut its education budget by almost one half. Looks great on paper. Unfortunately, the logical extension of this policy is the ghettoization of public schools. Since private schools won’t take the disabled or poor, those students will all go to the public schools. Then we’ll have a two-tiered education system benefitting the well-off. Pleasant for the rich, peasant for everyone else.

However, public education is one of the most basic foundations of a democratic society. Public education was instituted because it benefits EVERYBODY! It’s the best way to prevent tyranny, improve standard of living and keep folks healthy. The single most effective way to reduce a population’s infant mortality and extend lifespan is not to buy them drugs or provide them with doctors but to TEACH THEM TO READ.

Is it possible that, with all our focus on money and acquiring stuff, we have forgotten the original purpose of public education? I could see the Campbell Liberals being sneaky enough to hide this agenda, but do you think most British Columbians actually want the public edcuation system to fail?

sthrendyle, there is no bargaining table to go back to. Unless you mean the one that will bargain issues other than pay and working conditions.

"and public support has peaked. "

Evidence?

The New York Times' Tom ("The World is Flat") Friedman today reports on findings commissioned by two U.S. senators, Lamar Alexander and Jeff Bingaman, from the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering and the Institute of Medicine. The topic is collapsing U.S. economc competitiveness; the recommendations — surprise — focus on the failure of the education system.

There's more to Friedman's summary than what I include but following are some indicators "that illustrate why decisive action is needed now":

· For the cost of one chemist or one engineer in the United States, a company can hire about five chemists in China or 11 engineers in India.

· Last year chemical companies shuttered 70 facilities in the United States and have tagged 40 more for closure. Of 120 chemical plants being built around the world with price tags of $1 billion or more, one is in the United States and 50 are in China.

· U.S. 12th-graders recently performed below the international average for 21 countries on a test of general knowledge in mathematics and science. In addition, an advanced mathematics assessment was administered to students in 15 other countries who were taking or had taken advanced math courses, and to U.S. students who were taking or had taken pre-calculus, calculus, or Advanced Placement calculus. Eleven countries outperformed the United States, and four scored similarly. None scored significantly below the United States.

· In 2001 U.S. industry spent more on tort litigation than on research and development.

Yes, this is a U.S. report but let's assume that after decades of lockstep government in Canada we could find similar results here. Connect the dots: Katrina revealed that the American infrastructure is collapsing from neglect. And reports such as this one show the same for its intellectual infrastructure. Is this any way to build an "information economy"?

On another day I'd argue that public education's higher purpose should be training for citizenship, not for work or profit-taking. But in B.C., where Liberal education policy can be summed up as "bust the BCTF by any means necessary," we are not serving the higher purpose, and we are even failing the low goal of producing a competent workforce.

It is a good sign that B.C. parents (I am one) support their teachers. It is a bad sign — of how institutionalized the reductionist theory of education has become — that teachers are in the terrible legal situation they are in today.

I don't know if an appeal is in the offing, but I would have filed immediately. She castrated the union by freezing their funds. Their funds are teacher's money.

It's bizarre.

But, it will not be effective, because it is so obviously unjust that it won't escape the public and because in spite of the Liberal BS, the union IS the teachers. Thus they can organize through word of mouth, do anything a union does without using the dues.

From what I read in the Globe it appears Campbell was given a hard time in the other provinces over this.

sthrendyle, you ask

. I reply: Where is the Minister of Education? Clearly, she's considered inept, for the labour Minister has been called on to carry the ball. Where is the Premier? He's out of the province, well insulated from any of the actions he's precipitated, same as he was out of the province when the Liberals didn't want him to respond to the raids on the legislature.

I don't feel at all well represented by my government officials.

Meribeth made a statement consistent with what many here have implied:
"The ruling seems to me to be a legal quagmire."

To me, there is nothing strange about this decision. It seems like a fair and reasonable compromise.

The court did not apply any punitive punishment that might cause long-term harm to the union, nor did it imprison or fine anyone. Instead, the union was simply forced to 'cease support' for an action the current laws deem 'illegal'.

If you call the police about a neighbor playing loud music in the middle of the night, you don't expect them to just be handed a ticket and allowed to continue - you expect it to be 'stopped'. This is essentially what was done, with a 'warning' to not start doing it again. Pretty reasonabe to me.

The end result is that the judge effectively 'stopped' the union from financially or logistically supporting any further legal breach, yet it did not go so far as preventing the teachers themselves from continuing their strike. The only difference is that the union can no longer urge or pay them to do what the court has deemed illegal.

To my understanding, it was NOT on the table for this judge to strike down the law used to launch this prosecution - this was not a legal challenge. The judges only role was to apply the existing law and specify a reasonable remedy given the circumstances. I think the judge came up with a logical and wholely defensible ruling given the situation.

If the union and its supporters wants to challenge the legitimacy of the law itself, then they should do so. But unless and until they do defeat it, our judges must apply it - this is their job. In this case, I think it was a reasonable choice among the available options -- regardless of one's level of support for the teachers, because that is a different issue.

Just a question.

If there is an appeal in the offing, and I sincerly hope there is...I see a number of avenues for appeal, not the least of which would be a flagrant disregard for the Charter...but, how will the BCTF pay their lawyer?

"I don't know if an appeal is in the offing"

I'm not a lawyer, but the understanding I've been given is that the powers of a judge are pretty wide-ranging in contempt of court situations... and un-appealable. The judge has instituted a penalty particular to this situation, rather than enforcing a law, and is not bound by a precedent, which doesn't really exist as far as I know for this kind of thing.

Lawyer-types, armchair or otherwise, feel free to set me straight

A democratric societie's descend into fascism is a gradual process but there are certain events that serve as epiphanies.
The stolen US election of 2000 (and pretty much evertything else since)was one and now we have our own. (not by any means the first ofcourse)
When the judiciary abrogates its most fundamental tenets by failing to adhere to the ideals of moral righteousness and fairness then it is no longer an institution that can be taken seriously.
In fact it is the moral duty of enlightened citizens to resist and then replace such a flawed and deeply corrupted institution.

Kevin Dalman, "If the union and its supporters wants to challenge the legitimacy of the law itself, then they should do so"

Why? The gov't will just pass another one. As pointed out above they have no problem passing new laws when they lose and getting away with passing laws that violate basic freedoms such as freedom of association and speech.

The Order exempted legal fees from the freeze.

PREPARE THE GENERAL STRIKE.
This government has but one agenda - to break the back of public sector unions and trample the democratic rights of working people.

The only thing this bunch of miscreants understands is the use of raw power. So, we will give them a taste of raw power.

An escalating strike strategy should be implemented, with a set of clear demands. If these demands are not met by established deadlines, then waves of unionized workers should down tools until the entire province is shut down - including ferries and transportation services.

This government has a complete disregard for the rights of working people, and deserve only our contempt. If this had been done in 2002, we wouldn't have seen the ripping up of legal collective agreements, the massive privatization of our health care industry, and the arbitrary roll-back of workers' wages.

When the unionized workers at the legislature walk out, and the government is unable to conduct it's business or travel freely around the province, we will finally see results.

SHUT 'ER DOWN!

"a teacher i know once referred to some of her little ADD/FAS kids as "FITH" - short for 'Fuct in the Head.' i'm not making this stuff up."

And emergency personnel call drowning victims "floaters". Pedophiles are "kiddy-diddlers" where I work. C'mon Steve, you've been/are a working journalist, you must know black humour is part and parcel of many jobs. Just imagine what the tax man calls freelance journo's! Other than 'the debtor' I mean.

Blondie, Ah, thank you

Well with all this Dick-tator has done to BC's future BC Rail, BC Ferries, BC Hydro or Terasan etc what can you expect from this Cowardly Drunk!
I hear he is going to be a new daddy?

The B.C. Liberals are now facing their litmus test. Will they show that they can actually govern a Province, or will they stick to their ideological agenda at all cost, and risk more civil unrest? It appears unfortunately they may be taking the latter route, which would of course fail in the end. Running a society is not about being right or wrong, or just making and enforcing laws, it is really about properly administering public assets and services, and helping create a liveable social environment. It seems that on all those fronts the Liberals continue to display abject incomppetence. Let us hope that they haven't done too much damage by the time this, their last temr is up.

In this situation, the high road is to shut down the province. The public sector is all of us.

You're correct Remember, but this pretend gov't consists of dull, incompetent people who actually think they're the elite of society and the rules don't apply.

Kevin, the judge had many options which would not have involved union busting. She choose the one that does. She also reserved the right for heavy fines. Sorry. This is not 'creative', it's biased (in my view) and bizarre.

skeptikool you are so right, I was at the pennyfarthing sight munro sold us out, he made a deal with bennet to take care of the iwa which means I walk alone.

Shortly after the meeting the iwa construction local 217 started building sawmills all over the province this was his reward for selling out the rest of the Province in my opinion, and where did he end up?

Oh sure, BRING IT ON! My pals soylent d green, nemesis, and my dad ron erwin aren't scared of a puny public service strike. You union rabble have had your day. The need for unions is gone. What has a union ever done for you, besides gouge you for dues? The union executive are just in it for the money. Jinny Sims is, er, ugly. Yeah, and Gordo was ON VACATION, geddit? He drove drunk sure, but he had an excuse - see, Lara needed a 'ride', and after 16 martinins, 2 bottles of wine, and 6 lines of blow all poor Gordo could think of was getting laid. So he left Fred's house. Gordo is a great guy. He knows how to run this business, er, province right. Look how great everything's going! We're awash in money! We got the Olympics! Hey - if Gordo just stays away from BC, maybe all those useless deadwood unions will just go away...

Krispy,

That's the ticket. To not do so is to encourage those that would inflict a fascist, police state.

You were right:

[B][B]SHUT 'ER DOWN[/B][/B]

Here, here! remember has an excellent argument above.

The fundamental disconnect that exists in the philosophical underpinnings of all this abuse of every single principle of good governance by the Liberals seems to be their inability to understand the difference between authority and power.

They believe they are in 'Power', not in service. They believe they should have the 'power' to enact laws at their own will. To make laws stripping citizens of their basic Democratic rights and freedoms, if they want.

This has never been true in any real Democracy, only in dictatorships. Democracies are all about rule of law, and law itself is subject to rules and principles, or should be.

Liberals just do not get this distinction. They do not serve, except those more powerful. They are perplexed by the howls of their victims, when they strip away the fundamental rights and freedoms they thought would be safe. Or the howls of the taxpayers who paid for the assets that are now sold cheap to those who offered 'contributions' to the Liberal cause.

If the government in 'power' can enact any laws it wants, how about a law that poor people can't vote? I've heard it proposed. Or maybe one requiring the homeless to wear armbands, or forbidding them to sit down? Or outlawing labour unions and jailing activists? Or jailing suspected socialists? Or disappearing all who disagree?

These things are not a great leap from where we are now. They have all been done, or proposed, and they all stem from the idea that government does not serve, or even regulate, but instead exercizes 'Power'.

Te Aro

Taking the 'high road' is not by acting illegally. That is lowering yourself into the gutter. Don't the techers have more brains than that?

RRG

That decision was light, yet a shot over the bow to the BCTF. Nothing has been permanently taken away, and the judge decided that she won't turn ROSA into a martyr. Kind of a neat ruling, and it leaves the door wide open to real punitive fines, IF the BCTF doesn't get some education, real quick.

A General Strike is just so passe. It will prove nothing, other than the usual suspects, the rabble rousers are denying themselves their paychecks, doing some more self-vicitimization. it's time that the corporate unionists realized that this strategy is flawed, and only injures themselves. The modern, high tech economy still allows financial transactions to occur freely, unlike the past where a GS would have real impact. That and the fact that real enrollment in unions is declining and has been for years, and shall continue to do so.

The problem here is that while unions will always exist, I don't buy any of that rhetoric crap that the extremists on both sides spew, they, or their leadership have lost touch with reality, and are more into grandiose spectacles, rather than getting ot the down to earth members, who, frequently, disagree with union policy, yet are treated themselves as demagogues.

And that's union democracy. As long as you agree in lockstep with the groupthink.

Meribeth, some of Campbell's Chinese investors don't care about the right of freedom of association. That is why I think it is better to look at what is happening from a Chinese businessman's perspective. In fact, in Taiwan it wasn't until 1989 that it was granted, so some have hardly even lived to experience how this value is translated in everyday life. For example, due to this law there were no legal dance clubs in Taiwan prior to 1989. And well even after 1989, only a handful of legal clubs were established since the culture was to run things illegally anyways. Just changing a law won't necessarily lead to changes in business culture, and so the value of freedom of association really has not sunk in.

It should be no surprise to those of Chinese heritage that BC's so-called Golden Decade will be paid with the price of challenging Western liberal values in favour of tyrannical manipulation. Are all the Liberal MLAs content with that? I think the Liberal Party could split over selling out to Li Ka Shing and his business network.

And isn't that just what happened to the Socreds under Bill Van der Zalm? He made a real estate deal with a Chinese investor for an offer he could not refuse.

Bailey, grow up, you are being extremist, and discreditng yourself.

I wonder, did you say the same thing during the dictatorship of the 90's? It was after all, like that, just switch Liberal for NDP and the same thing applies.

Face it, we had an election earlier this year, The NDP lost despite the best efforts of the extremists, and this is an elected government. Just the same as those supporting this government had to put up with an inept government of the 90's, that certainly mistreated those not 'on their side', then you must put up with this.

Why is it that the extreme left always purports lawless behaviour when they don't get their way, while the 'right' is always poised and reserved in their opposition?

As for your last two paragraphs, it's just plain rubbish, and something you should publish in The Worker, or some other useless rag

Straight from Bill Good eh? I heard him say the same thing an hour ago. Well, many of us don't look to Bill Good to tell us what to think.

A general strike will not just hurt the people involved, it will hurt the economy as a whole. Ferries will not run, schools will not run, the mail won't move, government services won't be there etc. It will affect almost everyone and will bring pressure to bear on the gov't to bring it to an end. They can't do that by simply telling everyone to get back to work or the courts will send the police to escort teachers to school.

The gov't has refused to negotiate. Now they say they will only if the teachers return to work. But they refuse to be bound by those negotiations so their word is meaningless.

"And that's union democracy. As long as you agree in lockstep with the groupthink."

Funny, sounds more like Campbell democracy to me.

For such a "free thinker" you sound like a BC liberal appologist: "dictatorship of the 90's," "extremists," "inept government of the 90's" etc. Did you come up with those on your own, "free thinker," cause they sound a lot like Liberal talking points.

"I don't buy any of that rhetoric crap that the extremists on both sides spew"

kettle meet pot

"then you must put up with this"

No you didn't, your media attacked the NDP everyday on the air and in print and lawsuits were launched constantly to fight the government. I still recall the soon-to-be-Liberal saying he was just a non-partisan citizen upset over the so-called fudge-it budget and that's why he had to sue.

The left has not attacked the Liberals anywhere to the degree the right attacked the NDP.

A commentator from elsewhere made the eloquent point that teachers have a duty to represent the interests of students:

My students live on the on the fringes of society. They deserve smaller class sizes, suitable class composition, a full time librarian. If I don't stand up for these students, who will?

This, of course, is one teacher's experience, but it puts the case succinctly. If teachers don't stand up, who will?

By the way, calling Bailey an extremist is like calling the Girl Guides a paramilitry organization. Says more about your own politics.

my gawd this thread is amusing, reminds me of the old joke about the NDP Bucket 'o Chicken . . all left wings and assholes.

The smokescreen about fighting for student rights . . blah,blah, blah . . ain't fooling anybody, although I believe that the teachers have convinced themselves to believe it. Its about money, more greedy public sector workers wanting to stick their thieving mitts in the taxpayers pocket.

Gawd you'd think they were Liebrals like Dingwall or Joe "Pixzza Man" Volpe.

Stay on strike please. After all, the BCTF in a brilliant move argued that a 3 month strike won't harm children. Then the court can fine the crap out of you & bankrupt the BCTF . . all the commies & socialists can just get stuffed. Get rid of it, we don't need it.

"there is no bargaining table to go back to. Unless you mean the one that will bargain issues other than pay and working conditions."

Many seem to have forgotten that teacher salaries and other education funding started falling behind under the NDP government. Therefore every exaggerated claim being made here against the Liberals could also be made against the NDP. Why do you think they are so quiet on the issue?

Regardless of whether you agree with their choices, it is worth understanding WHY the Liberals are standing firm on this issue. The teachers are not the only public union looking for pay raises. The Liberals set a policy that 'froze' wages until next year.

Public unions that have already accepted freezes would be pissed that their members' needs were seen as less important than teachers. If unions still negotiating see that all it takes is a strike to get the government to back down from their policy, then what do you think those unions will do? If you say nothing, then you haven't been living in BC very long!

The government has already made clear that the teachers and other public servants CAN EXPECT a raise in their 'next' contract - after the freeze expires. Therefore claims that there is no reason to negotiate are uninformed - this is an available 'option'. I understand if teachers reject this, but it is an option none the less.

As for the class size issue, I am not convinced it should be discussed as a 'condition' of a collective agreement. To me it smacks of political maneuvering when the real issue is a 15% raise - let's be honest about that.

I feel that the teachers would gain considerably more legitimacy for their views on class size if they made it a political campaign AFTER they were back in schools. This is how you lobby for changes in government policy IMHO.

It is not the teachers' role to 'demand' that the government run schools to suit them. They can and should be a loud voice speaking out when they feel strongly about the system, but unless they can prove unreasonable 'personal hardship', then I do not accept it as a valid reason to strike.

So let us be clear that this strike is primarily about MONEY, not class size. Teachers are legitimately concerned about class-size, but not for a moment do I believe this issue would prevent them from accepting a contract that gave them the pay raise they want. Their priorities are clear.

So while I fully agree that teachers are underpaid, I am unmoved by rhetoric that they are on strike for 'the good of students'. This is politics. It may be part of the negotiating game, but I will not fall for it any more than I accept all the government's rhetoric.

Just listened to shirley bond on cbc.
She must have bleated the phrase "breaking the law" 20 times. What an awful human being.
She's a sell out to her own gender.
On another sinister note what's all this hoopla about a pipeline to kitimat from alberta transporting crude oil? Does this mean giant oil tankers will be coming up that channel? Let alone all the wilderness that will be destroyed. For a losy 20 jobs? Just to keep greedy americans in oil even as they rob and rape the rest of the world?
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
This lemon still has to achieve certification from the national energy board so I urge everyone to get ready to protest this travesty.

I just read the judges decision.

To appoint a monitor who will have complete access to the BTCF's financial information and to report to her IN CASE THEY DISOBEY HER ORDER IN THE FUTURE! is so far reaching it is shocking. And, out of the realm of being appropriate in any way.

judge's

In regards to the monitor...Really, one has to wonder. The more I think about this the more amazed I am.

Mr. Dalman,

Your entire agruement is based on absolutes pertaining to the execution and compliance of flawed law.

If this where really true, how do you reconcile the fact that the only reason women are allowed to vote today is the result of civil disobedience. The only reason that gays now have rights is a direct result of civil disobedience.

Are you saying that politicians that pass laws have absolute power regardless of how flawed these laws are. And you support democracy? I think not - that, sir descibes what I see as a fascist dictatorship using the courts to impose rulings that are directly in conflict with our consitutional rights to freedom of speech.

YOU ARE OUT TO LUNCH MR. DALMAN - as usual (RPS- alias das baron)

"Many seem to have forgotten that teacher salaries and other education funding started falling behind under the NDP government"

But the fact is that the NDP did listen to teacher recommendations on class sizes, librarians, special needs etc and acted accordingly. The teachers had to forego a pay raise to get those things but they themselves decided it was worth it. The Liberals took that away.

"Why do you think they are so quiet on the issue?"

Because then it would become a Liberal vs NDP issue and the NDP doesn't want that to happen.

"The Liberals set a policy that 'froze' wages until next year."

Yet the Liberals knew the teacher contract would be up well before that. Even if you agree with them on raises (I don't) they still could have resolved other issues such as class size based on the recommendations of the people in the front lines, the teachers.

"As for the class size issue, I am not convinced it should be discussed as a 'condition' of a collective agreement."

Why not? What issue more than class size could affect a teacher's work environment? If the Liberals put 300 kids in a class would the teachers still be seen as just looking for a raise?

"I feel that the teachers would gain considerably more legitimacy for their views on class size if they made it a political campaign AFTER they were back in schools"

Like they did during the last election campaign? Like they've done many times over the years? Yes, that worked well didn't it. Letters to the editor and the odd newspaper ad really got people's attention. Fact is, only a strike awakens people to the issues because its the only time they pay attention.

"It is not the teachers' role to 'demand' that the government run schools to suit them."

Its not the government's role to refuse to listen to the recommendations of professionals as regards the conditions in their field, whether its lawyers, doctors, army officers, church ministers or the police.

$50.00
The idea that teachers ENJOY giving up an entire day's real pay in order to receive a refund of $50. of their OWN money is an insult to their intelligence, not to mention ludicrous, but it is also a clear indication of how "bankrupt" some people's thinking is. Pun intended. The teachers have just been denied access to their own emergency savings, intended to help keep the wolf from the door, during times such as these, when a major real sacrifice is being made.

sthrendyle;
An average secondary teacher has a "case load" of at least 30 students X 7 courses, that is 210 students (or soon 40 X 7 or 50 X 7)! Take the minimum of 30 students per class. If an English teacher gives a student's written paper 10 minutes of attention, it will take that teacher 35 hours to mark 1 item, outside of instructional time. During instructional time that teacher deals with 30 students at once!! Now, speech therapy sounds like a cushy job, doesn't it?

As you can see, if you pit people against each other, it is destructive.

Yammer:
Quote from Yammer: "If the union keeps them out ... " You mean "If they decide to stay out ... "

This province has moved so far from democracy that many people apparently can't even visualize its existence as manifested in the day to day organization of the BCTF.

sdgree, Yammer & all those with "solutions":

All the great remedies that you suggest have been tried for years, and not only were teachers given NO support or public praise for their efforts to provide quality education, judging from your postings, some of you who are now suddenly interested, didn't even notice that this has been going on all the time. It took a very dramatic action to open your eyes and you still don't see. There is no "bargaining table" It's long gone!

Teachers have made every reasonable effort known to humanity.

TIME'S UP.

NOW YOU WILL SEE WHAT THESE PROFESSIONALS CAN DO!

TEACHERS ARE USED TO PRODUCING RESULTS WITHOUT MONEY AND RESOURCES.

RR Girl says "the judge had many options which would not have involved union busting... Sorry. This is not 'creative', it's biased (in my view) and bizarre."

Really? What option should the judge have choosen that would have ENFORCED the law she is duty bound to uphold?

Allowing a rich union to remain in contempt without threat of penalty would certainly be an incompetent response, so clearly some serious remedy was required. Many of the teachers I've heard say the decision was less harsh than they expected.

I'd also like to know how you get 'union busting' out of this judgement? The union was fined not even $1 - nothing was done to harm the union in the long-term. Only if the union disobeys the court's orders does it risk further penalties.

Simply because you don't like the outcome of a decision doesn't prove it is 'biased'.

"I'd also like to know how you get 'union busting' out of this judgement?"

It prevents the union from carrying out one of the prime reasons for its existence. Unions don't exist because people like the sound of the word, they exist to represent the people within the union. If they're prevented from doing that they become ineffective.

How about if the law decided corporations couldn't communicate in any way with their workers and were not allowed to use the corporate bank account to advertise or pay its workers.

Just a short quote.

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."

Voltaire

This situation proves he is still correct.

Kevin, the court had the option of doing what courts have done in the past. She could even have given the union a very light slap on the wrist. Instead she has attempted to declaw the union. It won't work because the union really is the people. In spite of what you some of you like to pretend.

Also, she is reserving the right to fine them later.

The most bizarre action is her appointment of an overseer for the union's finances, money that belongs to the teachers to be administered by their union. She is overstepping by miles any reasonable opinion. (again in my view)

Another small point.

The 'contract' that was extended by legislation was not a real one. It was itself legislated during the last round by the same government.

The first time you legislate an end to a labour dispute you may be justified; more time may be needed to bargain, or to allow tempers to cool and reason to return.

To legislate the same agreement a second time is tantamount to a bonded indenture, which is illegal under British Common Law, the basis of our own system.

The only difference between bonded indenture and slavery is that a thrall, (that is, a bonded worker) may under some circumstances free himself, whereas a slave may not.

Neither has the right to determine the conditions of his own life.

Wow, it sounds like the BCTF is on the path to sainthood. Up there with Mandela, Parks, and those that pioneered womens' suffrage and gay and other civil rights. The people of this province are so lucky to have this ever-benevolent organization stand up and fight the evil majority government democractically elected by, um, the people of this province.

I thought the electorate spoke in May, but now I see the BCTF proclaims to speak for the people of BC. They have a clear majority, with a whopping 0.96% of the population, to set public policy.

And, most bizarre of all this, the overseer is there JUST IN CASE the union IN THE FUTURE disregards her ruling. Come on.

and the Libs have a whopping 26% or so that allows them to pass laws against whoever they don't like.

The electorate has hardly spoken birdstomach. 45% (liberal popular support) of 60% (voter turnout) of the electorate voting for the liberal party a clear majority does not make. You see, this is why we need stronger public education, then perhaps you'd grasp simple concepts like critical thinking - or even just basic math!

stump - who are you? - always fun to get fan mail on these boards. alas, i don't make enough in a year to arouse the curiousity of the tax man! as a comparison - virtually all of the major magazines and newspapers pay less than they did 20 - 25 years ago, and are mostly purchasing 'free' content given to them by CanWest contributors who've signed away all of their rights! no solidarity amongst freelancers.
you might be interested to know that my 'freelance career' was kickstarted in 1987 when Canada Post decided to cut 7000 letter carriers from its workforce in order to give them 'the flexibility that they need to maintain profitability.' well, those cuts didn't happen, not all at once, but the sweet ride that most LCs had in the 70s came to a crashing halt. i suffered under no delusions that an essentially unskilled job that paid quite well was 'mine for life' - and took that little lesson on downsizing to heart. my ex LC pals are now close to retirement, god bless 'em, and despite email and other alternative forms of communication, still have their jobs. good on 'em. i can't imagaine how bitter i'd be (and i loved the work - not the politics) if i'd stuck it out. so here i am, posting blather on internet chatboards.
as of 1 pm, the teachers are still mulling over their next move. i'm truly hoping that it's one that's back to the classroom. did you hear the little girl on CBC radio who said that it was 'about money' - from the mouths of babes, eh? a booming five percent. give me a break. (well, gordo actually did - i would bet that the Libs tax break put far more money into their jeans than the last ten years of 'settlements' combined...'

Bailey, it's press gangs next. lol

What a bunch of sophmores.

It's the best feeling in the world to defy, oppose and obstruct this damaging government and the stupid, selfish chickenhawks it rode in on. The people in this province overwhelmingly support the striking teachers. OVERWHELMINGLY. Ha! Sit on that and rotate, Campbell.

"i would bet that the Libs tax break put far more money into their jeans than the last ten years of 'settlements' combined"

Studies of this issue have already proven you'd have to be a high grossing teacher without kids to have come out ahead on the tax break after all the other service fees and the rises in MSP are factored in.

Cry me a river Judge Brown. The teachers had the audacity to reject your back to work order. "Oh my God, how dare they?" As long as Judges are appointed by politicians and not elected at large, they are going be be tarred with the same brush as their political masters. Yah,I know. They are appointed by the Feds, but so what? They are still political creatures. Does that give this Judge the right to suspend the teachers their basic rights?
I think not. This Judge's action was predictable in more ways than one.This blanket denial of rights leaves this Judge wide open to reversal on appeal.

MBraun: I guess the saying that those who don't vote can't complain would apply to your stretch that somehow the government didn't win a legitimate mandate. Either way, I don't recall seeing the BCTF on the ballot, so nobody could have given them a mandate to set public policy.

Frank claims:
"Its not the government's role to refuse to listen to the recommendations of professionals as regards the conditions in their field, whether its lawyers, doctors, army officers, church ministers or the police."

WRONG. This is exactly their role. It is the role of these 'professionals' to make their case as effectively as possible, and it is the role of government to weigh this input along with every other factor and then choose the path or compromise it deems appropriate. It is the public's role to then judge the government's performance on these issues come election time. THIS is how government and democracy work.

To claim that public employees should dictate demands on how public services are run, and that the government must then acceed to them regardless of all other considerations is nothing but rhetoric. The fact that teachers would give up this 'demand' in exchange for a pay raise further illustrates that this issue is not what is at the heart of this dispute.

If someone here wishes to discuss the issue of class size in its full context, then let's start by a thorough examination of the costs and resources required to accomplish this goal. And what are the other areas of education that are completing for these same resources? When weighed one against the other, which is higher priority - both short and long term?

Let's also discuss the issue of demographics, which shows that primary and secondary school enrollment will DROP steadily for years to come. The demographic 'peak' is now becoming college age - this is where the biggest educational shortages are likely to be in the near future.

But no one seems really interested in looking at the issue from the larger perspective as our governments must. Instead people just parrot the one aspect that 'some' classes are too big 'today' - as if that is all there is too it. Then it is simply assumed that the government can just snap its fingers and solve the problem.

Should we rush to spend hundreds of millions for additional schools which will sit empty in 5 or 10 years? Should we rush to hire more teachers, even though we do not have the facilities for them? Or should we just kick special needs children out of public school all together?

But most here have no interest in learning anything about these issues beyond the one perspective voiced by teachers. While this viewpoint may be important and legitimate, it doesn't mean that government should 'negotiate' fundamental long-term educational stategies as part of a contract agreement. Teacher input and opinion should not be ignored, but it also should not be sole criteria for setting public policy - period.

The argument that 130 contracts were signed or "negotiated" as Shirley and Mickey like to throw out in the media, is a load of B.S. CUPE, IUOE, BCGEU, and all other public service unions were bullied in to accepting these contracts, they were not negotiated they were forced down our throats.This assumption by some like "freethinker" and his Liberal friends have bought right into the Neo-Con program. Freethinker my ass. I welcome the teachers to continue to fight for fair and just bargaining, as I know no other public service union that had the balls to take on these facists.

Kevin, you are wrong when you say democracy 'works' by voting a gov't and then if you don't like it vote them out in four years. lol

Democracy involves keeping your gov't honest every day via your MLA's (before this 'stick to the plan' bunch arrived) and one's political involvement in day to day issues and the running of one's province and city etc. Democracy isn't vote one day and shut up for the rest of the four years!

Just a short Quote.

"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to the burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments."

Willam H. Borah

It is starting to look like we are going to find out what happens when the men and women of this province finally say "Enough is enough."

"It is the role of these 'professionals' to make their case as effectively as possible, and it is the role of government to weigh this input along with every other factor and then choose the path or compromise it deems appropriate. THIS is how government and democracy work."

You claimed I'm WRONG and then agreed with me. The government would not even discuss issues like class sizes and nor did it comromise in any way. Nor could it since it didn't listen in the first place. Democracy works by listening to the governed, not acting like a dictatorship or this democracy won't last long at all.

"To claim that public employees should dictate demands on how public services are run, and that the government must then acceed to them regardless of all other considerations is nothing but rhetoric"

I hope you start paying attention soon. The teachers are not dictating, they are asking to be listened to.

"The fact that teachers would give up this 'demand' in exchange for a pay raise further illustrates that this issue is not what is at the heart of this dispute."

What? Again, pay attention, the teachers gave up a pay raise in return for their recommendations being taken on the other issues, therefore your it is in fact the opposite of your statement that is true.

"If someone here wishes to discuss the issue of class size in its full context,..."

I have a better idea, how about the government we elected start discussing this issue with the workers on the front lines. That might be more worthwhile don't you think?

"But no one seems really interested in looking at the issue from the larger perspective as our governments must"

Again you agree with me that the government must look at these issues.

"Teacher input and opinion should not be ignored"

It is being ignored - period.

I just talked to some teachers on a picket line close by, and they're worried that, once again, the FED will crumble as it did when the HEU was up against the wall. Personally, I hope Jim Sinclair grows some balls and calls for a General Strike. We MUST stand together, or we will all be plowed under.

It is being ignored - period.

Frank, it's not only being ignored. It's being suppressed.

I think the Fed will crumble too. Too many of the executives aren't willing to get their noses dirty. I believe the Fed will let teachers down as surely as night follows day but don't worry, they'll put on some nice rallies and maybe hire a funky group of street artists for entertainment.

On the bright side, other unions may support teachers outside of the Fed.

Just a short Quote.

"It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office."

H.L. Mencken

God, I wish this was true.

Sorry, GWN?

Explain yourself.

I support the teachers but I would be interested to see what the posters on this board would say if the money issue was removed. I'm not begrudging anyone a right to request a raise...heck I'd do it every chance I got.

However, I believe that public support would sore even higher then it is if Jinny stood up and said "OK, we will take you at your word that a salary increase is coming next June" I can hear the groans about taking them at their word but we have to start somewhere.

Once the salary demand is removed insist on agreed to settlement on all of the other issues...including class size and under funding.

It is the under funding that drives me around the bend, for example even if this was all to end tomorrow, my daughter would not be returning to class until the week after next or Oct 24...why??? Because do to a lack of funding not only did this school district close schools but also decided that they would shorten the school year creating what is called a FALL BREAK...and an extended by a week SPRING BREAK...all this to save money.

Glad to see government is funding this.

Question: Has anybody contacted Carole James recently, asking what she plans to do to support the B.C.T.F.? Would you tell us what she said?

Or is she trying to please the trolls who might translate any New Democratic support for this professional federation as taking orders from unions?!!

I think you scored on your 2nd paragraph there Mary.

Midas, we have a Fall Break here too. And the extended Spring Break as well because the schools can't afford to stay open those weeks.

By the way I used some of my own money to take coffee to the pickets down the block...does this mean I should expect the courts to freeze my assets next....(Tongue firmly in cheek)

Just had a conversation with a friend about that very issue BC Mary. Not only has there been no leadership from the liberals (which is to be expected), but there's seemingly been no parliamentary opposition.

Midas1: I like your theory above regrdaing removing the wage aspect. Unfortunately, the government would probably find another reason not to entertain the idea.

RR Girl, The judge DID "give the union a very light slap on the wrist" (as you put it). No fine, no jail - nothing but a 'warning' to STOP being in contempt and supporting others to be contempt! What did you expect?

It would have been irresponsible for a judge to say "you were bad", but then let them walk out of the court to continue doing the exact same thing. Courts orders are not jokes to be ignored by those who disagree with them.

Anyone who chooses to defy a court order after being warned by a judge MUST be prepared to face heavy fines and/or jail. If the union chooses this course, then I will respect their conviction, but I cannot then cry for them when they are fined.

"the union really is the people. In spite of what you some of you like to pretend"

This statement is not true. A union is an 'organization' - a 'corporation' actually. It may represent the people and in turn be supported by them, but this does not make them one and the same. If the judge believed this, then she would have threatened fines against every 'individual' on strike - but she didn't. She dealt very narrowly with 'just' the union.

"The most bizarre action is her appointment of an overseer for the union's finances... She is overstepping by miles any reasonable opinion."

This is utter nonsense. Auditors and overseers are common in legal actions where orders are made regarding use of company assets. Plus the judge explained that she was unclear on how the union was structured and therefore how it might move money around through 3rd parties. Therefore the decision to assign an overseer was reasonable prudence. UNLESS the union was planning on disobeying the court, it will have no effect on their operations whatsoever.

The bottom line is that this judge is not 'for' OR 'against' the teachers - she is just doing here job. No harm was done to the union and no threats were made against teachers, but the authority of the court was upheld. It was a reasonable solution in my opinion.

However it is clear that many here will criticize anything and anyone that doesn't favor the teachers. Fine. I've nothing left to add and so will just agree to disagree.

There is a myth running through this thread ... and that is that teachers have negotiation as a choice. The BCTF has always been willing to bargain. The removal of the RIGHT to BARGAIN is a critical factor in this action. Yet the message is still not making it. If teachers go back to work right now, they have no right to bargain. It is up to the government to open up the process. Tell the government to BARGAIN.

Past experience re The Fed and the NDP says, you are likely to be right.

I still hope that you are wrong.

Still, being prepared for the worst from these compromised bastions is likely the more prudent course.

Regrettably there are not the working class structures, formal or spontaneous, legal or extra-legal, in place to take up from where these business union institutions are possibly to abandon ship. Alternative bodies of trade union activists prepared to act outside their authority, if need be, should ideally be coming together now.

Again, I still hope you are wrong. Though hope is often a thin, un-nourishing gruel.

If they do fail teachers and us now though, remember them both next election.

And methinks BC Mary is onto something too.

" If the judge believed this, then she would have threatened fines against every 'individual' on strike - but she didn't. She dealt very narrowly with 'just' the union."
No she just denied the individual teacher 350 dollars a week of their own money.I would feel I was being slighted and I'm sure you would if someone dipped into your savings.

If the union wants to trump the Government then it needs to start making the rules. Getting want you want with this Government is all about inflicting pain.

What the union should do is send a portion of its members back to work on a rotating basis; not enough to allow the schools to open, but enough that the teachers will get at least a portion of their salary and the school boards will have to start footing the bill.

Once the steam has been taken out the the court ruling and the Government sees that the public is not on their side then they will cave.

Coyote, I just don't like what I'm hearing from the Fed. A rally on monday? We don't want to talk general strike etc.

Almost makes one believe the Fed is happy the judge said they can't help the teachers financially.

I could well be wrong and I hope I am, maybe they're just trying to get their ducks in a row.

I also know the NDP doesn't want to say anything that will make them look confrontational, but I say why not? The election is over, there's not another one for almost 4 years and I could even understand their position if this was only about wages but its not. The NDP are ignoring a fight over, as Luceo just noted, a union's right to bargain.

That's a pretty serious thing to ignore.

The liberals would love to make this about the NDP. They've been trying all week. Go to Hansard and see what the NDP as opposition did do fighting this bill.

Kevin, she did effectively fine the individual teachers fifty dollars a day.

Also, because she is not aquainted with the financial workings of the union is not a reason to appoint an overseer. It is up to a third party to bring a 'future now present?', infraction of a court order to the courts attention, is it not? Or, for the court to require a report of some kind? Come on.

Also, you say a court order is to be obeyed. True. Until the court order is nothing but a tool of a fascist gov't. When the neo-cons decide to show contempt for the rule of law, it is not only the laws which they don't like that are made void. They don't get to choose which 'laws' and traditions are upheld. It puts all laws into peril. That is one of the destructive results of Neo-Conservative gov'ts. Regardless, her ruling about the monitor is to prevent future possible infractions she implies...Well, it seems more like a slap down. And, aninappropriate use of the judiciary. But, then I'm not a lawyer. Just a citizen, who perhaps naively, thinks justice should be the operative word in the justice system.

A real gov't's role is not to union bust. It is to provide balance between legitimate interests. We know this isn't a real gov't. So, how can the laws it enacts be real laws to be interpreted by real courts?

When a gov't betrays the public trust as this one has, what is the rule of the judiciary?

I don't begrudge the teachers a raise, howevr, will the quality of education improve proportionatly ?
If they get 10% is that enough to improve the quality? Is 20% going to that much better again ?
The highest quality of education is usually higher at private schools where teachers are not generally paid as much as public school teachers.
Shouldn't we increase funding to private schools ?

Just saying that I wish it were true that having no common sense, common decency, or honesty would make one ineligible to run for public office. This would automatically eliminate 90% of the people in government office today.

Increase funding to private scchools? What on earth for? Those who want an elitist or religious education to set their children apart from the rest of society should be prepared to pay for it. We should remove all public funding from private schools, they shouldn't get a single penny. That money belongs in the public education system and would go a long way to alleviating the conditions that brought this action about.

In the last provincial election, 5,885 out of 25,060 eligible voters voted for Bond in her Prince George riding.

In the recent teachers' strike vote, 22,700 teachers out of a possible 38,000 voted to strike. [/QUOTE

****************************************************

If we increased funding to private schools wouldn't that make them public schools? They already are half-public.

Should public schools be able to kick out kids who bring their average down?

What about the fact that the public school has been outperforming most of the world?

Being as educational outcomes improved in the 90's when the teachers took a 0% raise do we now owe them more money according to your logic?

Is it not a kind of oxy-moron "Public funding for Private schools?"? If they want private schools then they should have private funding, not getting on the coorperate welfare line.

If private school teachers get paid less (can anyone point to any unbiased online evidence of this?), then perhaps it's only fair since they teach smaller classes with no ESL and no special needs students. Not working as hard so less pay.

Frank, the entire basis of your argument is that the government is 'ignoring' the teachers, yet nothing you say supports this claim. It is mere conjecture that stretches credibility to believe.

"Classes are too big" and "there are too many special needs students per class" doesn't require a 10-day conference to grasp.

Simply because the government chooses to not deal with the issue as part of a contract negotiation doesn't prove they haven't heard teachers' complaints.

IF the teachers have a comprehensive proposal for government, I haven't heard about it - have you? So what exactly do you think would be gained by a 'discussion' right now? The teachers would demand smaller classes - the government would say 'no, not right now'. So how would this help?

We also are not discussing 'past issues'. THIS TIME, the union has given no indication that they are willing to give up wage increases in exchange for class size adjustments. If you have heard otherwise, then please share it with us.

The reason this dispute cannot be resolved is simply that the teachers cannot trust the government. This government is most widely known for its deceitfulness than for any other activity. When the Labour Minister says he will talk to teachers after they go back to work the teachers simply do not believe him. He has had ample time and opportunity to deal in good faith before any labour action was contemplated and refused. Liberals LIE! simple and true. How do you deal with liars?

Ron -

Where did that information come from? Do you mean the highest quality or the highest marks? While some private schools often score at the top when compared to public schools, the reason may not have much to do with the quality of education these students receive.

There are many reasons for this
- many schools pull students from very advantaged homes(more emphasis on academics, more exposure to books, ideas, learning experiences, higher expectations)
- parent involvement may be higher, since they are paying fees.
- the student body may be more homogeneous, without the wide range of abilities found in most public schools.

Another consideration is whether the quality of an education can only be measured by external test scores.
- their class sizes may be smaller.

Fair enough, GWN, but I would read through that quote again since it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

"Frank, the entire basis of your argument is that the government is 'ignoring' the teachers, yet nothing you say supports this claim."

Yes, it is the "entire basis" of my argument. If I have said nothing to support my position I'm clearly not doing a very good job.

"Simply because the government chooses to not deal with the issue as part of a contract negotiation doesn't prove they haven't heard teachers' complaints."

The government has said they won't negotiate workplace issues such as class size, ESL, special needs etc and nor will they negotiate pay increases. They have refused to negotiate workplace issues that the NDP did negotiate with teachers. Their reasoning is that they're the ones elected and the teachers don't have any right to negotiate those issues in spite of the actions of past governments. No pay increases are allowed to be discussed because the Liberals said so to everyone else. Do we agree on that?

So to me I see nothing to be discussed except the weather.

However, I believe the government has an obligation in a democratic society to have sat down with teachers and discussed these issues.

To follow your example of

"The teachers would demand smaller classes - the government would say 'no, not right now'"

I would say the teachers could then say "why not and if not now, when?" and so on. They could also present their case as to why they believe class size matters, what the effects of ESL and special ed issues are and the government could hear them out and perhaps even become more educated themselves on the issue.

Instead the government has stonewalled. They have not listened and nor have they given any reasons for their intransigence. Nor have they provided any sort of timetable as to when they will deal with issues such as class size, ESL or special needs.

"THIS TIME, the union has given no indication that they are willing to give up wage increases in exchange for class size adjustments"

Right, this time. Because they feel they have already taken 0-0 and 0 in order to get input on those other issues. I have heard teachers say if we knew we going to lose those things we would have taken the raise.

The Liberals have, as Bailey noted, already imposed one contract on the teachers and yet did nothing in the intervening years to create a better environment for discussion nor have they been willing to open the discussion to workplace issues or pay raises.

Their relationship with other unions has been about as bad. Someone strikes, they legislate. They never negotiate.

Why do conservatives hate education?

Actually let me change that.

Why do neocons hate education?

That's better. My folks were real conservatives, and they valued education highly.

About the NDP opposition. I have been reading hansard ... my NDP MLA has been speaking up for education and stating his opposition to Bill 12. For some reason Mrs. Bond has not been listening. He has met and talked to us on the line. He has talked to our local press affirming his support for our actions. What more can he do?
By the way our superintendent spent some time on the line with is today.
Interesting.
Also interesting is my co workers response to this latest ruling. More than one senior teacher has stated that they would rather retire early than continue to work with their tail between their legs. Our junior, mobile, teachers are looking at Alberta with clear interest.
How many teachers will we loose due to this clear lack of respect.

Today my daughter Ale, who teaches at University Heights, called me to tell me she was feeling depressed about this whole thing and particularly about "the $50" that this piece by Schreck so well explains. I told her to read the Tyee and that soon she would be feeling better. This was the case. But then she tried to find out from me who Ron Erwin was. I was unable to explain the man.

On the issue of private schools I was recently taking photographs for a magazine at Collingwood in West Vancouver. I will leave it to some of you here to explain why it was that I saw so many young women and young men over six feet there. Collingwood could easily field several women's basketball teams. My guess is that it all has to do with their diet.

To TAA

No offence meant or taken but I know what it says. I would like to see everyone be able to make the same quote their own then my wish would come true.

But the point I was making is that most politicians today are bankrupt of the most common of human triats and this government is a perfect case in point. DO NOT EXPECT ANY COMPASION OR MERCY FROM THEM. Any gains in this dispute are going to come from the courage and solidarity of first the teachers second the support Labour movement in BC and lastly the continued support of the moms and dads. I believe the rank and file labour movement will not stand for another FED blunder like the HEU travisity. If that should happen, I for one will be asking my local to withdraw from the FED.

typo "travesty" oops

Kevin Dalman: let me preface this post by saying that I enjoyed your post from about 45 mins ago.
I think you may be confused on the union issue. Unions are definately an organization. But I think you are confusing corporation with federation. Unions by definition are the sum of its members.
As far as the BC Fed goes, I'm positive they are going over everything with a fine tooth comb with the lawyers.
General strikes are a very serious matter to be sure. And Jim Sinclair as the boss needs to know exactly what will transpire and all the consequences therein before he calls one. There are so many unseen variables in an action like this it boggles the mind. Being in the bush I hadn't yet heard of a rally monday by the FED. But a situation like that is a feeler. There is a point in this situation that the FED will have to step up. As others on this board have stated and I agree. I just hope they don't step down too fast.
I think we all know this will happen, it's just the timing. And the big factor "gordo just doesn't get it." Neither do his lackies.

Ron Erwin is obsessed with keeping his private school.

Take off yer long johns Ronny, that might cool 'em down boy!!! Try droppin some ice cubes in yer shorts son. Buy a kilt laddy.

Is it not time we privatized private schools? Private schools always want public money from the poor but do not admit the children of the poor people.

What do you say to that wee Ronny?

to dsturdy:

R. Erwin invents his "facts" and does not have the skill to read or to interpret a bona fide educational report which includes any the variants which you have listed. There is usually no evidence forthcoming on his assertions.

What does "The highest quality of education is usually higher ...." mean? Does it mean that the lowest quality of education is usually lower at private schools? Ask Ron for a reference, or a genuine study link, an ISBN number, or an author's name ... and wait for it.

SKEWED STUDIES.
You know, of course, that when a private school can't handle a student's behaviour or can't deal with the parents' demands, the student is then sent to a public school. As education is legally required, the public school system must take the child in, if there is a space. It would be virtually impossible to achieve non-skewed results for comparative evaluation. Many students of private schools are there simply because their parents are willing to pay so that their children receive religious instruction. This is a moral rather than an academic decision.

West Vancouver public schools have a very low provincial pay scale, as do some private institutions. This mirrors the fact that some teachers are willing to receive less, in order to teach in a specific environment. It does not make them better or worse professionally.

"The government has said they won't negotiate workplace issues such as class size, ESL, special needs etc."

Right - 'as part of a contract negotiation'. Nor do they discuss how many hospital beds to add as part of negotiations with nurses. Nor do they discuss how many officers per citizen during police contract negotiations. These are "government policy decisions" that must be made based many factors - they are not "contract terms".

We can agree to disagree on this, but don't pretend that governments are 'obliged' to discuss any issue that public employees wish to throw in during contract negotiations.

"Their reasoning is that they're the ones elected and the teachers don't have any right to negotiate those issues"

Teachers have every 'right' to speak out, but have no mandate to 'force negotitations' on government policy as a contract demand, at least not in my opinion. As I said earlier, if they wish to act as a political lobby group, then it should be done outside of this arena.

"No pay increases are allowed to be discussed because the Liberals said so to everyone else. Do we agree on that?"

This is the Liberal line. I didn't say I liked it in this case. My point is that these are two different issues and should not be confused with one another. I support teacher demands for better pay, though I remain unsure that this strike is the best course for all involved.

My point is that wages is what this strike is really about - and I have no problem with that when honestly stated. I also don't doubt teachers' sincere concerns about class size, but this is not the reason they are walking the picket line. It is the political spin that tries to claim it is 'the issue' that I have a problem with.

I have no more time today, so I have to leave it at that.

correction line 2: "which includes any of the variants ...."

Ron Erwin is an under educated retard who blathers on about his precious gov't and the appeal of private schools.
I'll take the top 16 students at any public school in this province, and put them up against the top 16 private school students and by and large the public schools child will win at any contest.

To believe the Fraser Inst. findings on BC schools as gospel (as Mr. Erwin will)shows that he skipped out of basic math class when they were teaching averages.

Keep in mind that this administration doesn't want to improve or even maintain acceptable conditions in public education. The broker it is, the more evidence they have to support an alternative: Ronbo's private solution.

The only way this will be resolved is if the government is forced to come to the table through pressure from the citizens of British Columbia.

So what is this teacher labour dispute really about?

Certainly the BCTF can discuss matters like classroom size, composition, resources and the like, but such must not be included as a negotiation issue. Certainly the government should take note is these issues, then consult all the education stakeholders involved to resolve problems.

Teachers might be justified to seek a salary increase, in fact likely should at least be provided a reasonable COL value.

Again, the values in education cannot be just centered on what the BCTF demand. Parents, Post Secondary educators, school boards and the government are all important and equal players.

Again, the citizens of this province are providing a significant tax dollar in support of education, over $4.2 billion. Incrementally the education budget has increase virtually every year for the last 15 years. The per pupil grant is generous and definitely competes well with the rest of the Canadian jurisdictions.

So it appears about the only issue here is salary increases. But the government has indicated that ALL public service salary increases are targeted foo fiscal year 06/07.

But the BCTF does not want to wait for some reason. Why?

It is not great mystery how to have a good public education system. We have been doing it for years in Canada.

What is this strike really about?

The plan the Libs have to privatize education and their anti-democratic actions.

I agree with a previous poster, it IS time to privatize private schools.

No more public money for private enterprises.

I think it helps to separate the issues so we can discuss this without being so polarized. But maybe some like the polarization as it works to their advantge.

1. Bill 12. Should teachers be able to strike? And if not, should they at lesat have alternative dispute resolution mechanisms, such as binding arbitration available to others deemed "essential services". My opinion is without such alternatives, Bill 12 looks like union busting. A big important issue to fight about, to strike about, to protest about, but let us not call this "for the sake of the kids".

2. Classroom conditions. This one IS for the sake of the kids. I personally would like them GREATLY improved and Liberals have failed on this. It’s about time some action was taken. But my opinion is that factors such as classroom size should NOT be part of negotiated contracts. Why? I don't want them used as bargaining chips behind closed negotiation doors (potentially traded for things like salary). Just as I don't want doctors negotiating the conditions of my hospital or pilots negotiating plane safety. We need to improve conditions with a public, open forum involving parents, government and especially teachers. And we needed it yesterday. There is talk of this now but we need action.

3. The role of unions. Can/should unions be able to engage in civil disobedience and/or engage in actions counter to labour law? And if they break the law, is penalizing them fair? I think individuals should be able to engage in civil disobedience (sometimes it's the only way to change bad laws) but I do not believe our labour laws allow unions to fund civil disobedience. I also believe individuals or groups should face legal penalties for breaking laws even when done as civil disobedience (even when I agree with the civil disobedience or the fight of the protesters!). Why? Because even though I may agree with the outcome they seek to achieve, I also believe it’s an inherent necessity that our laws are applied as consistently and neutrally as possible (at least until the law is changed). How much worse off we would be if the law only applied to some people and not others, depending upon whether we liked their cause or not. Sometimes this happens, but its wrong. I want my judiciary to read the law, and implement it, even when it runs counter to their personal beliefs.

Anyway these are just some issues that come to mind but they see all mixed up in the rhetoric. Seems to me if you really give a lot of thought to what is going on here, you can agree with some issues, and not others. And until these issues get discussed as separate issues, we can’t move toward fixing all that is broke.

Kevin Dalman:

You may think that class sizes are not contract terms, but they HAVE BEEN in teaching contracts in B.C. in the very recent past. There is plenty of precedent for their inclusion. Arbitrators have left the articles intact. The BCTF has an experienced bargaining team and lawyers and nothing has been "thrown in", as you state, during contract negotiations. Rather, contract articles which were clearly defined and have been successfully implemented in some districts for years, have been "thrown out" unilaterally and without negotiation.

Read the previous contracts. Some of the class size and composition details are very specific and clauses in some districts also required assistance for special needs mainstreamed students over a certain number in one classroom. Physical safety of students was also taken into consideration:- shop class sizes, science class sizes, etc. Who, in your legal opinion, ends up being held responsible if that oversized woodwork class causes loss of a hand? Not the government and not you. It's the teacher.

When they start to pile 5 or 10 people into one hospital bed, I hope doctors or nurses will get something in writing to say NO.

Good post nesting tree - you have summarized the issues better than I have been able to. And I agree with most of your expressed opinions on the individual topics.

However you did miss one issue - teacher pay levels. This is where it all started. It is also an important topic for the general public as attracting and keeping good teachers is important to the social fabric.

But it is also true that this topic is the least contentious. I expect that at least 90% of British Columbians support better pay for teachers. The only real question is when and how much.

The joke is that Campbell hysterically warned BC voters last May that electing an NDP government would result in a disruptive teachers' strike.

In reality, the NDP would have given them a small raise and some concessions on the class size/composition issue. The right would have grumbled and life would have gone on.

Instead, Campbell himself has given us the longest school strike in BC history, with a general strike/day of protest looming to top it off.

Luceo writes:

"You may think that class sizes are not contract terms, but they HAVE BEEN in teaching contracts in B.C. in the very recent past. There is plenty of precedent for their inclusion."

I understand that they have been terms in the past - and I do not 'blame' teachers for trying to make them so again. My point was that the government should be able to exclude specific issues if they choose to do so because not very issue or time is suitable for 'negotiating' public policy.

If the NDP chose to let teachers guide their educational policies, that is fine. But this doesn't mean that every other government must follow their lead in every instance.

I want this issue to receive attention and would like the teachers to continue to press their views as front-line workers. However I just don't believe this issue is a reason for keeping students out of school. That is really my point.

Teacher pay is completely different however. I am still not sure this strike is the way, but I can see a justification based on the pay issue combined with the enforced contract. If this were the topic of discussion, then I would have little to say (believe it or not ;)

For the record, I also would have no problem with class size being raised a contract term if expressed in the context of a 'strain' on teachers themselves. For example, more stress, longer hours, etc. What I don't like is the pretense that this stike is all about the welfare of BC students - that is just union spin. This strike is about teacher self interest - exactly as it should be.

Definately the last post!

I have read the newspapers and seen the TV coverage on this with increasing amazement. There is almost an Orwellian quality to the descriptions of the purported disaster Judge Brown's order is supposed to be for teachers.

It was interesting to see the initial reaction from the employer's association lawyer. First, he was outraged. Certainly his first response did not suggest he thought the restraining order represented any sort of blow to the BCTF. He actually seemed to be in a state of shock. Within an hour or so, the lawyers and others, including the supposedly independent press were touting this order as brilliant, etc, etc, and the worst things that possibly could have happened to the BCTF, which was soon to be bankrupted. In other words, in the interim somebody got them "on message" - and typically the press pimped the ride.

Generally, teachers are described as crestfallen and devastated, demoralized, etc, etc - although there is scant evidence of this other than the fact that some guy named "Ratzo" went back to work because the strike pay was cancelled. Other teachers said they had friends and family and credit lines they could rely upon. I wonder if anyone at the Sun has heard of the BC Teachers Credit Union, for example? Don't you think teachers are capable of borrowing $50.00 a day from someone. And you know what, although express promises can't be made, I wonder if some of those loans might not be gifted away after the strike is over. In the meantime, other unions are able to chip in and get groceries and make sure rent or mortgages are covered.

And thanks to the Brown order, the BCTF's war chest will be safely preserved by a court ordered trustee until the conflict ends. Far from devastating the BCTF doesn't the order really just amount to a set of guidelines the BCTF must now adhere too if the strike continues? It's more or less a manual for staying out without being snapped for contempt of court. Surely this couldn't have thrilled the gliberals. All statements to the contrary are cheap propaganda designed to try to encourage strike breakers by creating a sense of the inevitable.

The Government doesn't have the support of the public it expected, and now the courts have failed to come to their aid. The Government is in trouble on this issue. They are cornered. They could have left the teachers to withdraw within the limit permit of the LRB and they flubbed it. Now they have a BC Fed that HAS to start calling some days of protest here and there in order to protect other Fed members from getting the shaft too. Nice one Gordon. Well done Mike. Congradulations Shirley. You have brought upon the longest education strike in BC history, and you've got one more law suit to add to HEU and the Crown Attorneys - challenging the contracts you've ripped up, and the expropriation of wages on the basis that they OFFEND THE RULE OF LAW; Oh, the irony. This has disaster written all over it for government. Soon they'll eat crown and talk turket - because they have to.

"1. Bill 12. Should teachers be able to strike? And if not, should they at lesat have alternative dispute resolution mechanisms, such as binding arbitration available to others deemed "essential services". My opinion is without such alternatives, Bill 12 looks like union busting. A big important issue to fight about, to strike about, to protest about, but let us not call this "for the sake of the kids"."

Yeah, by the time it's all said and done, at the rate we're going, the kids won't have any unions to belong to. How sad, how very anti-thetical to everything our country is supposed to stand for.

This action is for the kids... and not just their education today, but also for their rights when they enter the workforce.

Another question that begs asking: why did the Liberals designate teachers to be an essential service? No other jurisdiction in Canada has done this. Schooling is extremely important, but not essential. Only services which deal in life and death matters are essential e.g. hospitals, fire and police services. If teaching was an "essential service" how is it that schools don't operate 24/7?

As for Judge Brown's ruling, I too am deeply concerned. With Wally Oppal in Campbell's cabinet, I'm afraid the line between the judiciary and politicians has been breached. I hear you BC Mary when you posted this earlier:

Last thought. Can ordinary citizens organize aid for teachers? Can we donate money to them to offset their loss of strike pay? Can we loan them the use of photocopiers, cell phones, web sites...? Ideas???

Er, "Soon they'll eat crown and talk turket". An interesting expression. I was talking about crows and turkeys. Not the Queen or a "turket' whatever that might be.

That seems to be the sticking point with the business right wingers, they find it impossible that people would actually strike in order to win better learning conditions fot the STUDENTS! Teachers know that they cannot deliver quality education to a diverse class, (my wife is at a school where the STUDENTS are from 47 different countries) when class sizes are so large.
LISTEN people, teachers are trying to tell you that the class sizes under the present government system are too large!! they are willing to put their livelyhood and their butts on the line to draw your attention to it and you can't seem to get it through your heads!
Not everyone is exclusively interested in their bottom line, believe it or not!

hey sthrendyle unless you make 60k or more a year you don’t benefit from el gordo’s tax break due to the increase in user fees medical premiums etc etc.

Remember reading somewhere that 80%(?) of the population of B.C. earns 40k a year or less!

I just came back from a teachers' union rally in the Interior. What a wonderfully well-behaved crowd that had many members from the general public on hand. Every soul there (and there were many) beamed with pride for standing up to this noxious government and it's contempt for the citizenry. As we walked through our town to the rally, nearly every car honked in support. I am proud of the citizens of British Columbia: they get it, this government has gone too far.

Gordon Campbell's Liberals have tried to use threats, misinformation, isolation, legislation and freezing of our resources. They have done nothing but steel our resolve and push public opinion away from themselves. Even the corporately controlled media could not sway the public in this one. The more mainstream media has tried to paint the teachers as bad and irresponsible, the more they have helped our cause. The public knows its approximately 40,000 teachers and it knows they are good hardworking people. I love Jinny Sims and I am proud of the way my brothers and sisters have conducted themselves throughout this whole ordeal.

BC Mary: "Teachers not allowed to speak to the public? Teachers not allowed to discuss their concerns with colleagues? " I don't see any of that in the court order.

Thankyou, Sunny Sampson. What a wonderful ideas. You realize that if you help teachers (your employees), you are aiding and abetting criminals? lol Please spread the word as often and to as many people as you can. Please help those who don't get it yet, that Canada with all its wealth and resources, needs to be a just society - not a banana republic.

I'm one of them! A friend teaching in Calgary suggested I check out the Calgary Board's web site & I did. They pay more, do not have the funding problems & they need special ed teachers. Friends who have left to teach in Hawaii & Las Vegas are also very happy with their working conditions & salaries. My temporary contract is over in January & I'm looking east or south.

Kevin,

"don't pretend that governments are 'obliged' to discuss any issue that public employees wish to throw in during contract negotiations."

I believe they are. If the police tell the government that they're unable to investigate 90% of crimes I would expect the government to listen to that. If military officers say that without better armour they can't protect their troops I expect government to listen. If teachers tell government that there's too many kids in their classes, too many kids requiring special attention and that educational outcomes may suffer I expect government to listen and do something about it. It doesn't mean teachers dictate how the province runs, it means their front-line knowledge is recognized and valued.

"if they wish to act as a political lobby group, then it should be done outside of this arena."

I don't think class sizes and other issues fall into the arena of politics, I think they're well within the teachers purview.

The courts have already established a principle that where a teacher espouses views contrary to those of a free and democratic society, his or her inherent role model obligations are irreparably comprimised, which constitutes just cause for dismissal. It is troubling to see teachers, in an essentially private dispute, attempt to undermine and challenge the fundamental institution of such a society, the rule of law and the power of a court to enforce compliance witht the law. Yes, the government would be wise to extend some gesture of reconciliation, but the sanctions come from the courts, not the government. Unions who challenge the courts are reckless and negligent in the trusteeship of assets place in their hands by union members. I believe there had to be a revolution in England many years ago to demonstrate that no person was above the law, not even the king. But I guess this kind of information has been replaced by peace studies or some such.

At the risk of offender Spector sensibilities by use of "exaggerated metaphor" lawmakers with no sense of restraint quite commonly fall back on the rule of law when it suits there purposes. Hitler... Mugabe... Mao... Stalin... pick your poison. One of the reasons I am so deeply and unalterably opposed to the Campbell version of liberalism is because of the liberals' seemingly ceaseless misunderstanding of the concept of rule by law. It bothers me that the Campbell gang thinks rule of law means he who makes the law rules - and is free to tear up contracts, act contrary to international treaty, expropriate wages retroactively, arbitrate and then legislate away the results of arbitration, and otherwise legislate off the back of a napkin, ad hominen and as it suits them. It was stunning, slack-jawing hypocrisy to hear De Jong whining about US flouting of law on softwood. It is almost perverse to hear him calling teachers criminals.

And, daemar, teachers are far from being the first to strike for better working conditions.

Is this article by Bill Schreck or David Tieleman? I get those two Glennocchio advisers mixed up for some reason.

Yeah, we heard you nemesis, you don't like Shreck. Care to add something to the debate?

Maybe you can't refute his analysis so you throw turds instead.

"I believe there had to be a revolution in England many years ago to demonstrate that no person was above the law, not even the king. But I guess this kind of information has been replaced by peace studies or some such."

Ever since the Magna Carta the government has been encouraged to act responsibly and to listen to his subjects. James and Charles begat Cromwell.

We have a parliamentary system that can charitably be called dictatorial except for voting day. We do not have a system of checks and balances like the US. In return we, the governed, expect the power of law and order to be used responsibly. Peace, order and good government. When a government turns a deaf ear to the people it hurts the system itself.

I see that we have lost many of the commenters that I loved to read on this thread but that we've gained many others. The ones I read more carefully before are quite likely now busy elsewhere, supporting the struggle - or tired at the end of a busy week, like me, and resting.

I also see that everyone is mad as hell here and finally talking like a democracy. Democracy is no easy road....

If nothing else, that means that teachers have inspired debate - and also that The Tyee is there to support it. God bless us everyone in that regard.

I will go to sleep tonight as a teacher-activist bouyed by many events and disheartened by very, very few this week. Brothers by birth that I haven't heard from in a very long time phoned me to offer money. A couple of new honourary sisters on the local Parents' Association brought food to our house and offered to look after our children while we went out to the lines, etc. Mexican teachers, whose struggle makes ours pale by comparison, are demonstrating in front of the Canadian Embassy in Mexico City, remembering the ways that B.C. teachers supported them in their struggle. The South African Teachers Association has offered us everything they have, "interest free". B.C. teachers are the news on five continents and listed under "labour", "justice", "privatization" and several other categories. (See LabourStart.org)

Just a final word of warning:

While I go to sleep content with my efforts in the battle tonight, Gordon Campbell will too. There are a great number of neo-con (or neo-liberal) governments and powerful North American bodies behind him who intend to make this into the final battle between people and "power" (loosely translated as "money" in that vocabulary). While Jinny and I and the rest of the subjects go to sleep for eight or ten hours, Gordo and friends will be wide awake and strategizing over how to put an end to this once and for all. This is no time to let down our vigilance.

So... Stay strong, warriors. Wear your shields. I'm going to rest now....

And thanks for everything you did this week to keep the front line strong. Words are powerful and the words of support are what have kept me alive this week. (That and doughnuts.)

Just one request: no moe doughnuts on the line please. Bring us carrots and celery instead.

Sleep well friends.

We had checks and balances. This Liberal government undermined them, practically abolished them.

Auditors, ombudsmen, inspectors, regulators, expert civil servants with oversight of things as diverse as children in care and logging practices.

The lord Gord fired them all.

The situation we're in now, that comes so hard to law-abiding Canadians, of having to disobey the court in defense of a higher good, that situation has been entirely brought about by the reckless disregard of the principles of Democracy by government gone awry.

Gary--your quote from 3 hours ago:
"General strikes are a very serious matter to be sure. And Jim Sinclair as the boss needs to know exactly what will transpire and all the consequences therein, before he calls one.
Don't get me wrong, i'm on your side, but to refer to Sinclair as the "boss" is incorrect and leaves a bad taste in a trade unionist's mouth. Sinclair, is the elected leader of a large federation of workers in B.C. He only acts on the resolutions that are passed in conventions, and there are many regarding a cross-section of social issues, that we as workers deal with every day. When he is instructed by the sitting executive of the day (his cabinet, in other words), he has to respond. Regrettably, there are many fine resolutions that have passed in conventions, everything from teachers' strikes to peace protests, and the question from me is, when will he start making those pronouncements, that the rank-and-file workers have given him?The teachers are waiting! Remember WE are the BOSS!

I have another question.
Seeing as the BCTF can no longer support this job action in any way, if teachers are forced to continue this protest, how could they possibly fine the BCTF? They didn't do anything!

further to my last post:
I should have referred to "Gary 4Hours ago".
Another concern, I have, is the gag order that has been bestowed upon the teachers' leadership by this judge, and the fact that they cannot be counselled nor contacted by others in the general labour movement. Cetainly calls for a loud protest for "rights to assembly" in my view.

Haven't thrown you yet verso.

It's funny to hear the government's apologists braying about the rule of law. Funny how the legislation being contravened didn't exist two months ago. Funny how it's targeted at one specific group. I thought laws were for everyone. Why it's impossible to see that this law is the very opposite of how things are done in a true democracy is mind-boggling to me. But, given Ron Erwin's bizarre take on reality, and Nemesis inability to come up with anything better than name-calling these days, I guess I'm hoping for too much to expect the government's supporters to comprehend the finer points of justice for all.

"Seeing as the BCTF can no longer support this job action in any way, if teachers are forced to continue this protest, how could they possibly fine the BCTF? They didn't do anything!" Exactly luckylaine!!! That's why this court order is not nearly as devasting as liberal spin would have you believe. It's pretty hard to see how the BCTF could possibly be sanctioned for contempt for following the order.

Dave A, who says the teachers "cannot be counselled nor contacted by others in the general labour movement"? not Judge Brown!!

John: read the writ, please.

Stump, you write: "It's funny to hear the government's apologists braying about the rule of law. Funny how the legislation being contravened didn't exist two months ago. Funny how it's targeted at one specific group".

That law, and the law they wrote to roll back HEU pay retroactively, and the law they wrote to get around the arbitrator's award with crown prosecutors, are all now subject of law suits. The suits will take time. I think the furthest one along is HEU, which will be heard by the Supreme Court of Canada. Gordon may be changing his tune on the rule of law very soon...

Just as the Liberals retroactively passed a bill that made teaching an essential service, they can retroactively pass a bill that rescinds those bills that have taken their rights and those designed to label them and the BCTF as outlaws. That way the teachers won't have broken the law. They can wave their magic wand in both directions!

Dave A; I have. It doesn't. Basic law: orders can't bind people who weren't parties.

If they retroactively rescind their bad laws, then we never would have been criminals and Judge Brown-nose will not have even heard our case. Don't you love magic.

Leave here for a few hours to attend a demo, and the braunshirt wing nuts swoop in like vultures on a carcass. Skew 'em. (To satisfy the puritan sensibilities of some editors and site managers. :-)

The Lord Gord! lol. Good one Bailey. The pisstank with his head in the clouds. :-D

Time to listen to the Be Good Tanyas I think they are called. My favourite non-classical album of late, when I'm nursing a drink or two. Blue Horse is the album. (Check it out, Lynn. I think you'd like it.)

We'll crucify more braunshirts along the Appian Way at dawn. Meanwhile they can stay here for the night and wank themselves off over their keyboards.

It was a good support rally for the teachers our wee town had today. Everybody still seeming strong.

Bring 'em on!

Wonder what them Fed types are up to? They're my main worry. So long as they don't fold in on themselves, we'll whup these neoconazi asholes. (Gotta quit tormenting Beers, he's too anal to see the humour in it.Ramrod straight and like glass he is. If he starts to bend he'll shatter into a thousand shards.)

sdgreen, nimrod, jim and the rest of you bootblack tongued goosesteppers? Where the sun doesn't shine.

No one will have to waste valuable court time and energy hearing and pleading cases that have no need to exist.

Sharing,

I'm enjoying a good chuckle.

They can wave their wands in both directions! lol

Dave A, I can't get at the order, but I can quote from the rulling:

The BCTF is restrained for 30 days from directly or indirectly using its assets to facilitate breach of the court order of October 6, 2005. In particular, the BCTF is enjoined from paying amounts to its members as “strike pay” or to otherwise compensate members for loss relating to breach of the order of October 6, 2005; from providing guarantees or promises to pay to protect members from such losses; from using its books records and offices to permit third parties to facilitate continuing breach of the court order.

The order places limits on the BCTF. It doesn't say (and couldn't as a matter of law) that the "general labour movement" is prohibited from contacting teachers. So - feel free to loan your teachers friends some cash if they need it, and feel free to talk to them. Judge Brown didn't say you couldn't!!!

In terms of capitalism, without the inspectors, rentalsmen, omsbudman, etc., self-regulation is no regulation at all.

thanks red river girl, every now and then i have what i consider a good thought, and it is nice when others agree.

You're absolutely right, of course. If they really think the judges order says they can't negotiate (yeah, right) then they can reverse the law and apply to the court to dismiss their claim. It was they who started this court case, no?

I think we need to regulate these jokers right out of office!

Maybe we should start waving our own magic wands. :) Poof. You've retired!

(I mean the BC Liberals retired from public office)

Some interesting posts (and some wacky ones!) but good to see broad support for the teachers. I'm cheering for you! Good night and good luck.

Note to [B]SpedTeacher, Coyote, scylla, blonde pitbull, gary, bcmary, meribeth, frank, meribeth and any other I may have missed over the past few months:

Read my post above please. It's meant to give you heart to carry on, as well as to indicate my appreciation for the time you've put into expressing what I did not have time to express.

Thanks, eh?

redrivergirl: (one more post since I just saw yours)

There are as I understand it a couple of legal proceedings in play here. The BCTF is suing the Gov and contending that stripping them of their right to withdraw services and extending the contract is unconsitutional (I think that's right - I might be wrong about the exact nature of the law suit). The other legal proceeding is the one that the BC Teachers Employers' Assn too to the LRB. The LRB ruled the withdrawal illegal. That order essentially got filed (registered) in Supreme Court where it became a court order. The second proceeding is a much faster process than the first. For example, the HEU are only now heading to the Supreme Court of Canada - though that dispute has been winding its away through the courts for years.

What I can't believe is that they have sold billions of dollars worth of our assets (railroads, ferries, Terrasen, BCHydro transmission,etc); sent thousands of jobs out of the province (medical records, bc ferries built in Germany, raw logs shipped overseas; reduced government services; turned BC into a have-not province that gave them more money in equilization payments added to the recent windfall spead about by the Feds; and still have but a few extra Billion in the coffers.

John, now you see why I say they need only rescind those laws. Let's move forward and quit wasting valuable teacher and legislature time dealing with having bad laws on the books.

Gotta go.

Cuinn,

Great Post! I especially like this part...

While I go to sleep content with my efforts in the battle tonight, Gordon Campbell will too. There are a great number of neo-con (or neo-liberal) governments and powerful North American bodies behind him who intend to make this into the final battle between people and "power" (loosely translated as "money" in that vocabulary). While Jinny and I and the rest of the subjects go to sleep for eight or ten hours, Gordo and friends will be wide awake and strategizing over how to put an end to this once and for all. This is no time to let down our vigilance.

Now this leaves two questions in my mind.

If there is no resolve by the government by Sunday afternoon, what is the BC Federation of Labour (AKA - the working people of BC) to do?

1/ Starting Tuesday after the Monday rally rotating strikes around the province.
or
2/ Starting Tuesday a full scale, province wide General Strike by all Unions AND all supporters of the teachers. This strike will continue if there continues to be no resolve and may even escalate nationally.

Personally, I prefer the latter.

Analogy - A cougar(the four-legged kind) is about to attack me and I have a club in one hand and a gun in the other. Do I wait for the cougar to get near me and bite, I then club it, watch it get up and bite me again, I club it, it gets up and so on...or do I just spend my shell and get it over with quick?

What are all your thoughts on this?

But class size and composition is not a bargaining issue! That is a local management issue.

The NDP put someting in the BCTF contract that ought not to have been put in. This was so the NDP would not have to provide large salary increases. Remember at the time the NDP government was a tad short of cash.

However that is not the major issue. The fact is that eh education of our kids is not just an issue between a union and government. Parents and others MUST be included.

At the same time there is no excuse for lack of resources, text books etc. The Librarian issue is still a bit vague.

Looks like Ginni is being very resonable and willing to talk.
Check it out...

http://bctf.ca/multimedia/jinny20051014a/

Where's Gordo?

Any attempt to better the school environment always stops at the budget. There is no money for improvements. Only erosion. The downward spiral has picked up momentum since the Libs have been in power. Teachers have NO other way to better the learning environment for our kids, as no one is listening.

What is so hard to understand about that???

Where's Waldo?...err Gordo

I have a modest proposal. Are you listening Mr Campbell?

Why not just outlaw all unions? That would clear up this mess. Make a law (you're good at that) that makes belonging to a union illegal. Then invoke the notwithstanding clause to make sure it's constitutional. Problem solved because your drain on the economy, the unions, are all gone. You can then get back to making money.

I support the teachers in their plight; and to those of you who persecute them, there is a saying that goes "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand" so, I won't bother. Think about this, all those teachers out walking the line including the 1000's of primary teachers who are probably the most nurturing, loving, giving and dedicated people on earth (not to say that all the other teachers aren't) but that group certainly, in my mind, exemplifies what the noble profession of teaching children is all about; yet the teacher bashing continues....what is happening to our society?

I need to know that what is being said here, and it is brilliant stuff, is being said in the back rooms, in the organizing rooms, and on the front.

Where is this vioce?

Where is our oposition party, in what stands to be the most defining moment for them to speak, did they loose their notes!!!?

G'night darlin'. Stay strong, eh. We're with you.

It's you that is much appreciated.

And a tip of the hat, as token of my respect, to Average Joe and Sharing Is Good. Frank, Bailey and Allan already know I respect 'em. Great to be onside with all you folks, and many whose names escape me at the moment.

Keepin' the faith. z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z.

Sumctea,

They put this out today...

Time for reason to prevail in government dispute with teachers

VICTORIA - NDP Education critic John Horgan today condemned Mike de Jong's lack of action on the teacher's dispute, saying that it was in the best interest of parents and children that discussions between government and teachers take place over the weekend.

"With 600,000 students out of school and parents struggling to make arrangements, the Campbell government has a duty to sit down with teachers over the weekend to find a solution to the crisis that this government created," said Horgan.

Horgan said that despite de Jong's insistence that he won't talk until teachers end their protest, there is nothing preventing serious negotiations over the weekend. He pointed out that the Campbell government negotiated with the HEU in 2004 despite a court ruling that said that job action was also illegal.

"The Premier and his Ministers have made this decision based on their political interest only," said Horgan. "In the interests of students, he needs to put aside the government's confrontational approach and work towards solutions, not aggravate an already tense situation."

Horgan said that 26 school boards are also calling on the government to negotiate directly with teachers.

"All parties involved in this dispute understand what the government must do - sit down with teachers and enter into real discussions about the issues at hand, class size and composition," said Horgan. "Teachers have already said that they are willing to meet any time any place. It is now up to the Premier and the Minister of Labour to take up that offer and get to work."

Hey Ron Erwin there is another way you can keep your private school...wave your wand in both directions.

An all out general strike might be the only way to get the Neo-Cons/Libs to pay attention. When they approach Gordo with comments like "hey I lost a million on that" or "this BS is costing us a fortune" then we will see some action. We have to hit them in the purse big time, and then you will see some results.($) is really the only language they understand, and there greed is getting the best of them. I say bring it on baby!

"All politicians who seek to justify repressive legislation claim that they are responding to an unprecedented threat to public order. And all politicians who cite such a threat draft measures in response which can just as easily be used against democratic protest. No act has been passed over the last 20 years with the aim of preventing anti-social behaviour, disorderly conduct, trespass, harrassment and terrorism which has not also been deployed to criminalise a peaceful public engagement in politics."

George Monbiot, The Guardian, 4th October, 2005.

Sorry Average Joe, SharingIsGood, Frank - and probably some others. I left your names off my thank-you list above. So thanks, eh? You are doing exactly what needs to be done on behalf of those who are tired at the moment.

And Coyote, don't call me darlin', eh? My wife objects.

The general strike will not be a "general strike". It will be a "coordinated effort" - and we will be very careful about it all, for better or worse.

I think we're all smarter than we were in 1983 now. We strategize. Having recognized this as the end-game from the outset (2002 or so), a lot of planning has been involved. Not exactly a spontaneous worker's revolution, but the plan is to win. And so is Gordo and friends'.

There would be no winning exit from a general strike in my opinion. Too many cards on the other side of the table. We need to be smarter than them.

"Wonder what them Fed types are up to? They're my main worry"

Jim Sinclair seems like a good guy for 99% of situations but when a union is being denied bargaining rights and forced to the wall by laws made up on the fly I want the Fed to be like a bunch of hungry attack dogs.

Coyote, I'd pay big bucks to actually see you, as Fed pres, on tv calling de Jong an "f'n **********" :)

braunshirt gets bleeped?

sdgreen, kevin etc, maybe I'm misreading you but it sounds like you guys aren't that far off from agreeing with us that at the very least issues like class size deserve to be discussed (whether or not as part of a negotiation and whether or not it includes other parties), that the teachers deserve a raise, that two imposed contracts in a row is inexcusable and that passing laws just to attack your political enemies should be verboten.

A society of sheep must necessarily beget a government of wolves.
-Bertrand de Jouvenal

Keep bleating.

Why does the Fed think that the correct response to this and other attacks on union members is to hold a massive rally? It seems to be a Pavlovian response, but I don't believe that it is an effective one.
Average Joe is right- spend the shell. Haven't we all had enough of this? I'm ready for a province wide General Strike, and have been for a long time. Anybody with me?

I am quite certain Dalman is a Fiberal Staff officer. No one but could obfuscate reality better.

I picked up this information from a teachers thread on another site.

Legislation mocks Libs' own words
By Bill Tieleman

"Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny."

- Edmund
Burke, 1780

The B.C. Liberals think they are above the law when it comes to dealing with
teachers.

By imposing a contract last week on B.C. teachers instead of allowing them
to continue with free collective bargaining, including the democratic right
to strike, the Gordon Campbell government once again showed disrespect for
the law.

And that law is even of its own making.

In 2001 the B.C. Liberals passed legislation to make education an essential
service. That means in a dispute the B.C. Labour Relations Board would
determine what level of services teachers must provide if they strike.

The government was quite clear that it was not - repeat not - eliminating
teachers' right to strike. A government news release dated Aug. 14, 2001 was
crystal clear about Bill 18.

"The legislation maintains the right to engage in free-collective
bargaining, and teachers and support workers continue to have the right to
strike," it stated.

But last week's new legislation makes a mockery of the government's own
words.

No one should be surprised that the Liberals lack respect for the law, even
when they write it themselves.

This same government used legislation to overturn legal agreements to use
binding arbitration to settle contracts with doctors and provincial Crown
counsel.

The Liberals also ripped up mutually negotiated contracts between employers
and hospital workers, nurses, teachers and health sciences workers, despite
explicit promises by Campbell not to do so before he was elected premier.

The Liberals like to change the rules in their favour but they are too
cowardly to introduce legislation banning workers' right to strike.

Gordo: heh! heh! You have really done it this time. Another lawsuit in the making. Mind you it will probably take the justice system a couple of years to come about. But no problem, you have your judges on side.
Heh! heh! The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle.
I guess these tactics of yours during your last administration, and now into this one,is what you promised as TRANSPARENCY in government. Well a thief with a gun: oops, your government's legislation couldn't be more transparent. "Isolate and Destroy the Teachers"
But will it work, Gordo?

Just curious.

There has been a tremendous amount of time spent in speculation and debate here about this issue. For many of you, I expect it has been informative and has helped you deepen your understanding.

At the same time, I would be interested in what political action you have taken to resolve this dispute.

Postings of such actions could be a powerful tool.

As for me, I'm strike coordinator in a local and haven't had any time for on-line debate. I do know that on Friday, a staff rep came to see me to tell me that a member of staff is in financial trouble. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to help when our local assets are frozen.

Clarity of purpose is important; principled action is essential.

We had a teacher here in our town who went to the Credit Union to get his line of credit increased and was refused because he is "unemployed".
Which side are you on................

It is unbelieveble that the Fiberals are making no attempt to negotiate with the teachers at this time during this window of opportunity. Their actions speaks volumns for their concerns about education in this province. It appears public opinion and the labour movement are rallying in support of teachers. General strike anyone?

seymore

We had a problem with a local credit union during a strike with threating to forclose on a member and we went to them as a local and told them that one foreclosure and they would never see another union member in their building. They did the numbers and decided our business was worth a little patience.

Inspector

You may be right. Big business is holding the leash and they are the ones who can pull their dogs in. The only thing they understand is what hurts them in their wallets.

Someone once said that judges are just law students who get to mark their own exams. This ruling while interesting is a dangerous step toward a very slippery slope of facist oppression of peoples rights.

1 hour = 1 idea

Work collectively to approach financial institutions in the event of the denial of lines of credit or foreclosures.

The nuts and bolts are unclear but it's a direction to take.

Clarity of purpose is important; principled action is essential.

Unfortunately for the teachers and other public sector workers who are looking at more 0,0,0 mandates from this government, I don't think a general strike is there for them. And its not because people don't want it. The leadership at the BCFED (somewhat an oxymoronic statement right there) has shown in the past that they'll go only so far in this regard then cut the deal and put an end to it.

When Gordo the drunken premier makes statements alluding to the fact that he hopes the BCFED is at the "roundtable" discussion on education to be held in a week or so, one wonders why he would look forward to having an organization so diametrically opposed to his nonsense across the table from him. Unless he figures that he can make deals with them, much the same way deals were made on the 3 years @ 0 mandate by another union. Whether you're a teacher, an HEU worker, a school support employee, or a myriad of other employees that have had to stomach 3 years at 0, while particularly this year, the Consumer Price Index and the inflation rate are climbing steadily higher, you must be sick and tired of hearing about the record surplus, then being told that there's no money for raises, this year or next.

As for Carole and the NDP, the fact is that they cannot be seen to officially support in a public way, an illegal job action, for optical and other purposes. That doesn't mean that they don't support the teachers efforts to gain a fairly negotiated collective agreement. And on a personal level, how can a government led by a convicted criminal, a government who has repeatedly been condemned for breaking contractual law, by legislation, and its so called minister of labour (even though he lost a substantial amount of weight.... he's still the biggest bag of wind in the legislature), sit there and go "tsk tsk" at the teachers.

When it comes to acting illegally and immorally, sorry folks, its not the teachers that lead the way..... its the Campbell Fiberals. "When in Rome....."

I thought that the ruling was a fair one for the most part, from a judge who's having the opinion of keeping her nose out of it and not being blamed for any escalation of the dispute. The government is the one that needs to make the next move, repeal Bill 12 and get back to the table and try a new tactic... NEGOTIATE FAIRLY. But unfortunately, Campbell and his band of twits can't do that now. They have a weak knee'd minister of education and a blowhard minister of labour that have painted them into this corner.

And Convict Campbell is still governing like he's only got 3 members opposing him. You can hear the wardrums beating, first its the teachers, then the doctors, then the GEU, then the School Support employees and on and on and on.... Campbell wants 0,0,0 to continue..... and people are fed up with it. 3 words..... SHUT HER DOWN!!!!!

I'm sure you are still a darlin'. :-) (Always the danger to making presumptions online. :-D

Yes, the object is to win this one. Spontaneity has its place, of course, but nothing beats careful planning along with a strong will to win, in the class struggle.

Anal eh?

Yeah, which side are you on, comes to mind. Must be just a job to the guy.

GW North...

In hindsight, you're right about the ruling and the slippery slope. But based on law, her ruling might be "appealable." But then what's the remedy for the "contempt of court"? Unlike other judges, I think this one attempted to look at the entire picture, sees what the gov't has done and acted, and taken the position of trying to eliminate the ongoing contempt of court. Resolve the issue rather than step in and make it worse.

But I didn't see too many teachers running back to the classroom after the ruling. If the dispute was only about $50 a day, that might have been a huge issue. Clearly its about more than that. I hate to say it, but it looks like it might take some heavier action to resolve the contempt issue. But if they do throw Jinny and the executive in the clink, they should also throw Shirley Bond, Mike deJong and Gordo in there too. Maybe not gordo, it might bring back fond memories of his Maui Owie tour. Ahh what the heck throw his ass in there too. Maybe there's a bubba in the clink looking for a new girlfriend.

I talk to teachers here in Alberta, and it seems to me that a large source of frustration is the diversity of abilities that teachers must cope with.
Class size per se is not the real issue but having kids with inordinate differences in abilities make it difficult to teach to the middle.
When I went to school we were streamed. The class size wasn't a big deal, since the ability levels of the kids was reasonably close. We also had a concept of failure, which does not exist now (The School Boards don't allow kids to fail). Teachers also have to cope with the kids from dysfunctional homes and the discipline problems that come from this.
I know this is heretical talk, but it is true. Pay teachers well, bring back streaming in the classrooms, have "special" classes for "special" kids, and a lot of frustration will disappear.

Hi kegler:

The remedy for contempt of court is to lesgislate retroactive laws that rescind the bad legislation of the past. I believe that Bills 27,28 & 12 are the pieces of legislation that come foremost to mind. Certainly there are other contemptuous mountains of legislation. If the government can do this, they will show that they can learn from their mistakes. As long as heavy-handed legislation, that takes away people's rights, freedoms, and means of maintaining personal safety is on the books, there can be no trusting this government.

Indisputably, Health and Education are the most costly items of the Provincial budget.

When I went to school my desk had an inkwell and students were provided three writing tablets(exercise books), a pen and pencil. Textbooks stayed in the classrooms.

I rather suspect that educating a child today is somewhat costlier.

There is little doubt in my mind that healthcare costs have been doubled by a venal pharmaceutical industry - coupled with many abuses in the system.

The last thing I wish to do is to turn teachers and healthcare workers against each other. I just wish this Campbell gang would challenge the pharmaceutical industry and those many healthcare abuses with the same verve and tenacity with which it attacks teachers and the BCTF. There is much money there to be had.

The NDP, at least, had the courage to take on the doctors but were finally spooked by the Opposition and its compliant mainstream media.

Come on, BC Fed. To scuttle the creeping fascism, workers all have to get together on this one

Dave A: thankyou for pointing out my error last night. I used a poor choice of words to describe Jim Sinclair's position. As I do have a fair education (but no typing skills) and was getting tired, I also got lazy and used the shortest word that came to mind.

Also to someone else who stated that no other jurisdiction in Canada has designated teachers as a essential service. In fact no other jurisdiction in the free world has done so.

For those of you who still don't get the big picture, and the government lackie spin doctors on these boards:The government knew way back before they even lied to us about giving educstion "the highest priority" what they were actually going to do. The scenario goes something like this.
Gordo: we have a situation where we need 9 more months to complete our forced knuckling under of the public sector unions.
Mike and Shirley: What's that?
Gordo: The teachers need to be brought into line
Mike and Shirley: How are we going to accomplish that?
Gordo: Well with big business and the newspapers backing us we will first have the BCSPEA knuckle under to our instructions by ordering them not to discuss wages. We know this will be a strike issue because we imposed the last contract on them. So we need legislation to order them back to work. We also will need public support so we order them not to discuss class sizes or special ed children.
Mike and Shirley:And then what?
Gordo: well then we wait for the teachers to move. They will commence job action and Mike that's where you come in. You get a Labour ruling that the job action is illegal and at the same time we will introduce a law that bans a strike.
Mike and Shirley looking befuddled, hesitate.
Gordo: if you don't put this scenario into place I will do a cabinet shuffle an move you to the back benches.
Mike and Shirley: Okay Gordo.
Gordo:Besides we will have the parents and Media on our side. It's win win.

What this moron did not consider in his equation is the teachers walking out in civil disobediance of a very bad piece of legislation. What he further didn't realize is that the parents were wise to not only him but the newspapers and other media.
I'm sure he also didn't realize that some schoolboards would speak out against him. Nor the fact that the media seems to be pulling away from this issue. Could that be because circulation and sponsorship is dropping.I think so. IMHO

With smaller class sizes and caps on the numbers of special needs students in the classrooms, the needs of diversity can be addressed. If we can work through these issues for a generation or two while providing good (integrated) support services for families, our society will grow stronger. With downsizing, the poor and the weak have become more disenfranchised. A call for mainstreaming is not the answer. This causes mistrust and segregation in our society. This causes further disparity beteen social groups.

As it stands, disparity between rich and poor has increased as have crime-rates in this province since this government took power. This is a travesty in a land that is as resource-laden and well-educated as ours.

Mr. G., the response to your inquiry might be slow because people tune into web discussions at different times. Trust that coming to a supportive public forum like this is a good decision.

I think GWNorth's suggestion is the best one, but also I would encourage the nonunion supporters of your strike to also make their positions clear to financial officers at their local credit unions and banks. In my community, it's easy because the liberals are pretty much universally despised, so that amounts to a great deal of clout.

Put out an appeal to local area residents and business owners to chip in. The usual jerks will always respond like jerks, but trust that the quality of education is among the highest priorities of residents in this province and most of us want you to succeed.

My previous comment came forward as I read jbrooks' comments. I wis to acknowledge jbrooks for coming forward with an idea that would offer some solutions to some of the issues teachers face. I believe, however, that it will cause more harm than good in the end.

Whoops! I meant to say a call for streaming/segregation is not the answer. I must be tired...

2.5 hours = 1 idea

To make my earlier post more blunt. It's time for action. Let's turn this into a forum about ways in which we can resist this government.

Postings of practical actions on this list has the potential to make it a powerful tool for political action.

I repeat. Clarity of purpose is important; principled action is essential.

Thank you Te Aro Arahina

2 ideas. It's a start.

1. Work collectively to approach financial institutions in the event of the denial of lines of credit or foreclosures.
2. Collectively includes reaching out to non-union supporters to "chip in". To what or how this might be organized is still not clear but we're on our way.

Clarity of purpose is important; it's time for principled action.

I offered you 2 to go along with North's, Mr. Gimpy.

I would also suggest that you speak to supportive students, many of whom are willing to create their own impromptu demonstrations. My daughter and her friends are staging their own. It's their idea and their show. The parents are only going along to watch and make sure they don't get roughed up.

We've noticed children's handmade signs proclaiming support posted up around the area, too.

I think the judge is engaging in union bashing. If she jailed Ms Sims, which does have precedent, the public would have come down so hard on this gov't that they immediately would have had to back down.

Her ruling allows them to continue to 'union bash'.

Hopefully, she will soften her ruling through clarification.

oops, 'union bust'!

Gary, Mr. Campbell thought he had the parents onside because the gang running the BC Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils -- BCCPAC, the self-proclaimed and government-recognized "voice of BC parents" -- have been at war with the BCTF and in bed with the Liberals for years.

What they have overlooked is that growing disillusionment with BCCPAC means that currently, half the province's PACs don't belong to BCCPAC, half of those who belong don't actively participate, and most of the parents in any school have little to do with their own PACs. For example, only about 25% of Vancouver schools were active BCCPAC participants last year, and probably only a handful of parents from those schools actively participated in any positions taken in the BCCPAC process.

This anachronistic bunch is (for the most part) only a few steps removed from a 1950s luncheon club of Liberal white housewives. So you get the BCCPAC president being quoted repeatedly by all the official media, expressing a supportive position that is entirely out of touch with the grassroots in most BC communities.

This has encouraged the Liberals to go out on a limb where a more accurate take on the mood of parents would have prompted them to tread far more cautiously.

They're also proposing that BCCPAC serve as the sole voice of parents at this "roundtable" solution, which is certainly not going to win many hearts and minds, given BCCPAC's record of focussing on confrontation with the BCTF instead of standing up to the Liberals for students/parents on issues re class conditions and eroding resources.

What is the end game? Where is the way out? How does Gordo get the Jinny back into the bottle?

Mr. DeJong has been given the opportunity to save face this weekend.

DeJong has said he will meet with the teachers 24/7 when they get back into the classrooms.

Teachers are ready to meet with DeJong 24/7 but will not go back to the classroom unless there is a negotiated contract.

Teachers don't teach on Saturday and Sunday Mr. DeJong. This is your chance to solve this.

The solution is to meet this weekend and get a negotiated contract. Again, teachers don't teach on Saturday and Sunday Mr.DeJong. Think outside of the box a little and go for a creative compromise. Jim Sinclair has given you the perfect out. Can you not see it?

Meet with the teachers and get the contract done this weekend!! What an end run that would be. You could be the hero Mr. DeJong instead of the goat.

The teachers can vote on Monday and be back in class if the government shows it is willing to negotiate a fair and reasonable contract.

Negotiate this weekend and get the kids back in school instead of making more threats that are just going to anger more people and cause more trouble and keep our schools closed.

It is already hearly high noon on Saturday and you are pissing away the last few hours you will get to defuse this before a general strike. The clock is ticking away the last hours of your government's ability to head off anarchy.

Mr. DeJong, is your duty to show some leadership and fix this mess. Now pick up the phone and call Jinny before this last chance is wasted and the province is further damaged.

I repeat, teachers do not teach on Saturday or Sunday, this is you chance to solve it if you want to and have our kids back in school on Monday.

JMHO

The coordination of an appeal to local businesses shouldn't be that difficult. Start off by going to the coop radio stations and talking to the station managers, booking an interview and letting audiences know this appeal is starting.

Canvassing is a possibility for the braver, more committed individuals.

I sat on a Ministry panel for more than one year with other education professionals, business leaders, students, and Ministry officials. Also included in that group was the BC PAC Chair. I will not name this person; but, I found this person to be uninformed and misguided. This person promoted segregation and curricula that was driven from the top as opposed to teaching to meet individual need. The participants of that roundtable were very polite in their personal battles to refrain from rolling their eyes and sighing deeply as we had to listen to this person.

I must concur with NAME, above. My experience tells me that PACs are probably not presently a good source for finding capable, educated and enlightened parent leaders to have on a panel representing the needs of students.

jbrooks, I would prefer schools focus on the children's need for learning, not competition. As it is they're all supposed to finish a grade at the same time. Yet that ignores the fact they have different mental abilities that may cause some kids to just need a little longer to complete a grade. It also ignores different circumstances such as maybe one kid goes home to two supportive parents who help with homework and provide encouragement while another kid, just as bright, has to search the local area for his parent.

In a perfect world there wouldn't even be year-long grades. Kids would just move from level to level at their own speed.

Forget "failing". All kids should just be encouraged to learn without worrying about the clock.

the media and the govt should spend time in actual classrooms where there are:
regular students - nerds , brats, punks, social climbers, etc.
handicapped students - mentally physically, emotionally.
teacher - ill equipped to dispense knowledge equally, or even adequately to all, maybe any, under the current system.
teacher aides - maybe someimes, maybe not at all.

the education system is the greatest asset we have. period.

it is seriously flawed.
it has to be fixed, or it will become broken down and useless, like anything else that is abused and neglected.

gordon dumbell thinks he can fix it by ordering the teachers to work harder. their reward will be, well, they will not go to jail.

every single student will be as disserved as they have been since the first day dumbell had power.

education minister shirly bond (the invisible woman), and labour minister mike de jong (why is he even involved?) are simply the messengers of gordon dumbell's education policy - every child left behind except my friends' children, as they can afford private schools.

maybe if the messengers were treated in the old fashion......

i like the photo of gordumb. it should be the only one available of the premier, ever.
drunk on martinis behind the wheel of a car, drunk on power at the wheel of everyone else's future as govt leader.
which is worse?

you have to like mike de jong. all he needs is a little red ball on his nose, and his hair dyed green, and - you guessed it - krusty!

this govt must be sent a message.
do your job.
any moron can bully the weak if he has a big enough stick.
a leader ought to be smarter that that. lots smarter.
if we do not stop gord now, he will take it as a ringing endorsement of his arrogant and abusive behavior.

Those of us with supportive PAC groups (or individual members of the PAC) need to reach out to them and give them ideas. I phoned ours, though I was out on a limb. After a 20 minute conversation, the pres. phoned back some hours later to indicate they'd be pushing both BCCPAC and gov't. to meet with us to discuss a resolution NOW. That's a start. Some of the PAC members are looking for ways to help, but don't know what to do.

Idea for you Mr.Gimpy:
-Take a risk. Phone potential support on PAC and in the public. Give them at least one idea, such as writing letters/emailing/phoning to enourage a meeting. Or walking the line with us. Get THEIR phone trees started up.

How ironinc that the Tyee is running a cartoon of Gordo's mugshot. He broke the law, paid the penalty and obeyed the remedy. The BCTF has done none of that.

You are right, Frank,

Under the tutelage of the current government, our children are being forced to compete more and more. This is evidenced in new regulations requiring report card marks for primary children (including kindergaten!) and in provincial exams being mandated for Grade 10 Science, English and Math; Grade 11 Socials; as well as the Grade 12 exams that still exist. These measures do not improve student learning.

5 hours = 4 ideas

Thanks again you Te Aro Arahina

I challenge each and everyone of you. It's time for action. Let's turn this into a forum about ways in which we can resist this government.

Postings of practical actions on this list has the potential to make it a powerful tool for political action.

Thanks again you Te Aro Arahina

4 ideas. It's a start.

1. Work collectively to approach financial institutions in the event of the denial of lines of credit or foreclosures.
2. Collectively includes reaching out to non-union supporters to "chip in". To what or how this might be organized is still not clear but we're on our way.
3. An appeal to local area residents and business owners to chip in. Good. An appeal by whom and how. Let's put some wheels on these.
4. Great. Impromptu demonstations by students.

Clarity of purpose is important; it's time for principled action.

Martin

Are you sure he is obeying the remedy???? Or has he just got a little more devious????

I would vote for the second choice.

Someone said once "Get all of the fools behind you and any fool can get elected."

I have just finished reading the Vancouver Sun's editorial on the teachers political protest. The lap dog political bootlicking liberal apologists so called editorialists are continuing to spue out the deceitful mantra of the Fiberals in trying to solve the educational problems in this province. Why don't they just shut up and encourage the government to bargain in good faith with the teachers insteand trying to beat them over the head with a baseball bat.

Martin, how ironic that our cheif legislator is a convicted criminal who is able to write (retroactively-I might add) laws to serve his own needs! If I did what Gordon Campbell did in Hawaii, here, in BC, I would be a convicted felon, sent to jail. I am not sure, but I would probably lose my teaching certificate as I would be unfit to lead a classroom full of students. The teachers are soberly engaging in civil disobedience to stand up to bullies and injustice. Teachers, and the lion's share of the public, do not see teachers' behaviour as wrong. They are behaving in a ethically and morally principled manner.

jacked,
You are correct. The public gets it. The more deceit that these editorialists spew, the less they will be trusted in the future. After working on education issues for many years from within the system, I must say that they do not properly research their ideas; and they do not give the public a balanced and thoughtful picture of the education issues to which they speak. I, now, rarely buy their papers as I have little faith that any issue will be treated fairly. I don't like supporting misinformation: half-truths and outright lies.

Umslopogaas, a good post directly above here.

Now, my sense is that the government, 1) remains unconvinced that they can't win this one, 2)they haven't come all this way, as part of a neoconazi movement begun in the lead up to 1983 and Operation Solidarity, on the part of the "special interests" they represent, to retreat at the second sign of a fight.

Afterall, fundamentally, they did win the first 1983, Operation Solidarity round, in that their was no comprehensive "social contract" agreement with labour that they would not continue with their slash and burn approach to working class interests. And don't think for one second that they are not aware of that, and that thus far from there, they do not have the weight of precedent on their side, and a history of labour vacillation, organizational decline and unwillingness to wrestle them to the ground on this issue of who rules and decides the major issues of society. This is a capitalist society afterall, and it is that class interest they speak for, and they have a great deal invested already in rolling the social clock back to a time before trade unions and post WW2, what came to be called socialized capitalism.

So whilst I respect your urgings, and you are entirely correct, my own view is that it is going to take an overwhelming demonstration of raw, yet thought through working class power to bring this State regime up short.

That done however, it would be a mistake to stop there, for history tells us that all we will have achieved at that point even, presuming we even get to there, is to delay further attempts to another time and in other forms to secure the same result. This Neoconazi policy regime we are up against is not confined entirely to BC, or even just Canada, but is a manifestation of a process begun in Thatcher's England and Reagan's USA that has gone throughout Capitaldom, most recently being forced through as the social agenda, with social democratic co-operation, in Germany and France, for example. This neoconservative/fascist agenda is policy arrived at and initiated at the highest levels of global ruling class corporate capitalism, to the very level of the Bildenberg Society itself. (Google Bildenberg society or group.)

It is ruling class capitalist policy everywhere.

Which says to me, that the BC Lib/Con/Socred Grand Alliance, as the arm of that policy here, as the Paul Martin Liberals are emerging federally, are not going to quickly or lightly lay down here, I am sorry to say. And I anxiously await to be proven wrong on this.

Continued next post...

From previous post...

It would make for much simpler a world.

I think we have to begin to understand right here and now, that what we are launched upon, I hope, I think, is a major struggle within the very core of the socio-economic system itself to defeat the capitalist ruling class world view of the future.

Which doesn't mean that we can't win this fight and wrestle them to the ground here-, but merely that we must not be content with that, and the day after go about our business as usual thinking that we have resolved the problems of our future entirely. That would be naive in the extreme, I think.

What we have to be launched upon in its fullest dimensions is, a struggle to create a NEW social contract within the very socio-economic order itself-, that includes us, at the least, as a major and ruling power and player within the economic and all other institutions of society.

That means, to fully resolve the problems of this period within the direction of capitalist development itself, which they see as increasingly autocratic and restricting to ourselves and our interests, we need to see quite diametrically opposite. We need to build
a power, rooted in the majority working class, embracing the poor and progressive middle class elements, that can actually challenge current ruling class power, and force through qualitatively higher levels of democracy and working class participation in the ownership, management and direction of the "major" economic institutions of the social order, ever increasingly circumscribing that ruling class power. (Which doesn't either preclude "force", or exclude it. That is decided not just by us, but the dynamics of the process and all the forces within it.)

So while I certainly do not see this teachers' strike going to that level of things at this time, we need to see it, hopefully, barring another failure of Labour resolve, as the opening battle to secure a precedent of victory for teachers and ourselves, and to lay the organizational and political foundations for the battles yet to come, in what is likely to be a longer fought out war from here. Failing that, we will be back here again, again and again ad infinitum, until we do see the larger and broader dimensions of what is taking shape here.

Freedom of the Press. What a wasted concept when applied to the news services of this province. When one group owns and contols the media you get only the views and opinions of that group, presented as facts. What a farce.

5.5 hours = 5 ideas

Thanks Cuinn. By the way, any takers out there? Ready to take action and start phoning your neighbours or finding out who the chair of your local parent advisory committee is?

Let other bloggers know what you are planning to do.

1. Work collectively to approach financial institutions in the event of the denial of lines of credit or foreclosures.
2. Collectively includes reaching out to non-union supporters to "chip in". To what or how this might be organized is still not clear but we're on our way.
3. An appeal to local area residents and business owners to chip in. Good. An appeal by whom and how. Let's put some wheels on these.
4. Great. Impromptu demonstations by students.
5. Phone potential support on PAC (Parent Advisory Committee) and in the public. Give them at least one idea, such as writing letters/emailing/phoning to enourage a meeting. Or walking the line with us. Get THEIR phone trees started up.

Clarity of purpose is important; it's time for principled action.

Ideas for action:

Parent groups are already circulating info sheets with e-mail contacts for the Premier, Ministers De Jong and Bond and MLAs and encouraging people to contact them. Vancouver parent Charles Menzies has set up a special Website to help parents coordinate support for teachers at npweblog.ca

Meanwhile, 26 school boards have now passed motions urging the province to withdraw Bill 12 and meet with the teachers.

* We can ask our school PACs to support and promote such efforts -- writing letters and organizing demonstrations of support on the picket lines (and I was not implying that all PACs were useless in my post above -- the key problem is BCCPAC's leadership or lack thereof --"SharingIsGood", your description fit to a T!).

* We can ask PACs and DPACs to pressure BCCPAC to take a stand as many of the school boards have done.

* We can ask the school boards that have not yet spoken up denouncing Bill 12 to do so.

* School trustees are facing re-election: we can ask sitting trustees and school board candidates to speak up re rescinding Bill 12 and urging government to meet with the teachers.

* Employers must be feeling the pinch of employee parents who are hamstrung by the strike, and the prospect of broader labour action -- encourage them to start putting pressure on the province.

* The Liberals will be polling quietly and monitoring the drift of letters published in local papers to gauge the public mood -- so keep sending letters to the papers.

* We should copy letters and e-mails to the Opposition Education critic (Jim Horgan?), as the Legislature will be sitting again next week.

* Parents can also network to support each other with child care, as the practical aspects are important to maintaining support if we're in for the long haul.

I think Coyote is very right above. This is not a casual or trivial matter for the Liberals and their backers. It's the latest step of a well thought long term strategy for restoring a social order from the past.

They may give in here and there to gain a positional advantage, but no-one should imagine that this will be an easy win, or that it will end here.

There's a decision to be made here, a big one. About who we really are and how we wish to live as a people. Will we be civilized people, creating a whole way of life in which all the different aspects of human life are accomodated and all our potentials honoured?

Or will it be all about looking out for number one, and screw the weak, the old and the poor?

Those who would choose the latter are rich, sly and unscrupulous. As you'd expect from someone with such a life goal. They will not give up until they're made to. And the only way to do that is to keep them clearly in sight, and insist on better.

Every single time. Even when it's hard.

I like the idea, presented in one of the previous posts, of an "Adopt a Teacher" program. My local is seriouly contemplating such a program and once we work out the logistics, and a way to keep Ms Browns fingers out of our coffers we plan to impliment it. How is the question for us as we do not have a whole lot of assets, being a small local, but it might be the start of a bigger movement.

HEADGAMES - AND YET MORE HEADGAMES

Bumping into a Vancouver friend at a teacher-support rally, I commented to her that she was doubtless happy to be back at her work with Telus.

"No way" was her reply - not meaning that she would not have been happy to return to work, but that the dispute had not been resolved. Two of her fellow workers from Surrey confirmed that view.

"But....but I recall distinctly reading that it was over." I said. "Right there on the front page."

"Yeah...right. Go back to that front page. Look at the juxtaposition. What have you got?
You've got: TELUS DEAL as the main header, but at the top of the page you've got:
Defiant teachers stay off the job Clearly designed to kill teacher morale while making them look like anarchists."

As I said, headgames.

I have never been more proud to be a teacher. I have never felt more supported. And, I have never felt more resolved.

Are there any old Wobblies reading this thread who might explain to some of these commentors the benefits of having a non-registered union?

In essence that is what the BCTF is for the remainder of this dispute unless the good judge Brown has a change of heart.

As someone noted somehwere in the thicket above, the BCTF is no longer liable for any actions that take place after the court ruling.

It has been effectively removed from the fight, so every teacher is effectively on their own.

But most of us here know they are not alone, they are part of our communities, they are part of our struggle and I surely hope they are a major and glorious part of our future.

If they aren't then the right-wingers, especially those that call themselves left, but condemn the teachers leadership and urge teachers to cave in, will be among the most vocal when their children fail in education, fail in the workplace and, in general, fail in life.

Back to my Wobbly friends. The International Workers of the World grew out of the type of social chaos we are living today in BC.

Despite having any no formal recognition other than as an object of fear and hatred to be abused by the elites in society, the IWW managed to attract tens of thousands of workers across this continent.

People joined the Wobblies as much to force change as to gain immediate benefits.

It didn't change the world, but it did force some change in government thinking, especially in the use of violence by employers to beat the hell (at least), out of "dissident" workers who had the adaucity to ask for "more".

Judge Brown's ruling has effectively given 38,000 BC teachers an IWW membership card.

What can a Wobbly do? Well just about anything he or she wants as long as he or she is prepared for the response.

While Judge Brown didn't include any Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free cards, 38,000 teachers dissenting as individuals have the best protection there is from going to jail.

Short of internment camps there is no way individuals can be arrested and jailed.

If thousands of other BCers were to join their individual teacher friends in a real and prolonged defiance of "officialdom" the wheels of commerce, public services and a whole lot more would quickly grind to a halt.

Pie-in-the-sky? I don't think so. Virtually every advance in human rights anywhere in this world has been accomplished by defying those who want to keep you down.

One of the few hurdles to this, if people are committed, might actually be some of the existing unions ironically, just as it was in the '20s, '30s, 40s and beyond.

The one lesson from all of this is: a union is the people who opt to sign on and participate in the closest form of democracy available to them.

It is not office towers, negotiating teams, labour lawyers or any of the other trappings gathered to assist and advance the needs of the union.

Courts can't really take a union away any more than it can take a belief away. It can smash a union's capital infrastructure, but in doing so it is only smashing anation's infrastructure and pissing off people who remain organized and committed to their cause.

And the great thing about such organizing is you aren't limited to a craft or trade jurisdiction. The membership can include anyone of like mind and commitment.

Can Michael Smith,an editorilist for the Province be considered a writer of balance and integrity?

allan

So inspiring, I got goosebumps.

I agree with Coyote’s in depth post, a formidable task indeed to change the social order. It needs to be an organized enterprise coming from a grassroots movement, perhaps the nucleus of a new political party? That would be a difficult and time-consuming task, but very necessary.

However, great for the long term, but for the short term the dingdong DeJong and Quirly Shirley along with Campbull and the rest of the fibs could easily solve the immediate crisis if they came out of their ego bubble and actually met with the BCTF. All they would have to do is offer 0 wage increase for year 1, perhaps even 0 for year 2 and something decent for year 3, along with some small classroom concessions in terms of size and specialist help, and we avoid the next phase which could be very ugly. But, they won’t do that because they are bent on destroying the BCTF and the union, which is what their real agenda is. If the BCTF goes down, its hoop Ville folks.

THREE CHEERS FOR THE TEACHERS

On October 13th the teachers of Guatemala and Mexico held protest rallies at their Canadian embassies. The teachers of South Africa have sent their support and expressed outrage at BC Liberal actions.

Parents and students are bringing food, coffee, etc and are joining the lines. Parents are adopting teachers. Retired teachers are offering support and time. At last count, the trustees of 18 school districts have sent in letters of support for the teachers!! Districts have been expected to provide new programs and keep pace with world education standards, while having funds constantly cut. Some have had to resort to 4-day weeks, cutting instructional weeks from the school year, dropping courses, providing new mandatory courses without textbooks, etc.

The amount of support evident in this community is staggering.

The court ruling only stops the BCTF from communicating with its members re the work action. We can ALL talk to anyone we like, lend people our facilities, our money, give them food, encouragement and time. An interesting side-effect of this court ruling is that it is now easy to see who runs the BCTF ... its members.

It's up to B.C. people to stop B.C. from joining the world's exploited and oppressed. It's a sad day when Canadians are in need of world-wide compassion.

Right on Luceo, the teachers are the BCTF and they do need to show the world they can stand up and fight even if their head has been severed. Essentially, the court ruling has put the BCTF membership underground. Scary, but didn't a similar scenario play out in Nazi Germany? The individual teachers are really pissed this time and are not going down without a vicious battle. Good on them!

Sharing, surely you jest.

If a teacher was found guilty of impaired driving, you say they'd be drummed out of the profession? That's a laugh. The college of teachers would give them a talking to, make them take a therapy course, and that would be it. Hugs all round. Case closed.

That's it Skeptikool.

The Telus settlement is a diabolical capitalist plot to injure the teachers and brainwash the population.

As Luceo points out, at least the teachers of Guatemala see through these capitalist roaders. Good to hear that Jinny has the Guatemalan vote.

martin

You have not answered my question of your previous post on how Gordo has paid his penance. How about it??????

Martin, maybe I am wrong, about the College. I don't know, and I wouldn't want to risk having that kind of behaviour to test it. I don't think my community would stand to have me teaching their high school or middle school students. They would be all over the school board. So, I would have triple jepardy: the laws of the province, the rules of my school district and the College to contend with.

I don't believe that a teacher is allowed as much freedom to act unprofessionally as many legislators have. I can be fired with cause if I lie to my principal or other administrator; if I make false and inflamatory statements to the public or my students, I would also face discipline. Bearing false witness does not seem to be a problem for the premiere. His bosses, the electorate, seem to hold him unaccountable for his continual lying and promise-breaking.

Answer to GW North, here's what the Honolulu Star-Bulletin said about the incident and the penalty.

Campbell pleaded no contest yesterday to drunken driving and three other offenses.

As a first-time offender, Campbell was fined $500 for the petty misdemeanor of driving under the influence of alcohol. He also was ordered to pay $50 for failure to drive on the right side of the road, $50 for disregarding lane markings and $125 for speeding, going 70 mph in a 45-mph zone.

Campbell, who has publicly apologized for his behavior, did not appear in court, but was represented by Honolulu attorneys Steven Barta and Philip Lowenthal.

District Judge Reinette Cooper did not require Campbell to undergo 14 hours of alcohol abuse counseling and a substance abuse assessment, since he fulfilled the requirements before his court hearing.

Cooper said based on an assessment, she was satisfied Campbell required no further counseling.

"I do not believe there are aggravating circumstances," Cooper said.

She said she felt Campbell had been sufficiently embarrassed in the public, "as well he should be."

Barta said Campbell immediately accepted responsibility and has accepted a harsher penalty than usual.

Barta said usually, first-time drunken-driving offenders have lesser offenses dismissed, but Campbell decided to plead no contest to all of them.

Barta said Campbell's license was suspended for 90 days in Hawaii immediately after he was charged with driving under the influence of alcohol and that Campbell has continued to observe the suspension while in Canada.

I went for a stroll around the ol' barn last night and then realized something was stuck to my boot.

Scrape and kick as hard as I could, the something just clung there like yesterday's garbage.

Finally, in frustration, I lifted my foot, caught the lower fence rail and dragged my foot back as hard and quickly as I could.

I heard something splatter on the wet ground below.

I looked at my newly clean heel and then glanced down under the fence and there in the midst of the rest of the manure laid a still steaming Martin looking very much the shape of a real heel.

It's time folks to finally hammer the last few nails in the Liberal coffin.

Someone please post which corporations made large corporate donations to the Liberal re-election machine so the working people of this province can choose wisely where they want to spend their strike pay, and make these corporates know that we will be boycotting them until they no longer assosciate with this awful gov't

And now is the time to call your local MLA and insist they rescind Bill 12 or you will be looking into recall legislation especially where Liberals barely won their area (like Gordo, Harry Blow, and Horny Lorne Mayercourt)

I did my teaching practicum in Sooke B.C. and, as a result of my exposure to the BCTF, could not get to Alberta fast enough. I must get one thing straight before I continue - my practicum, from my school placement to my sponser teachers, was an incredibly positive experience that I will always value. I was lucky enough to be placed on the TOC list immediately following my student teaching stint and was offered a job within my practicum school (which I declined).

In the Uvic Post Professional Program, I noticed that many of my fellow students possessed a lack of tolerance for any other viewpoint than that of the left leaning BCTF supporter. One Professor was taken to task by several potential student teachers for trying to present a balanced (and by balanced I do mean an attempt to present both sides of an issue) perspective of the problems that exist in the BC public education system.

The last day of classes (Dec 14, 2004), before we embarked on our practicums, we were treated to a lecture by the union head of District #62. He told us many things that were pertinent to our future careers; he then began to extoll the virtues of the union by waving a tiny little pamphlet, that he said was the "pre-union" contract for teachers, and comparing it to a voluminous tome that was the current binding agreement (we were not given access to either of these documents).

I asked the gentleman why Teachers On Call paid union dues, yet recieved no benefits and no seniority for teaching time unless they replaced the same teacher for a set number of consequetive days. He said that that was how one rose up in the ranks of the teaching profession. I then queried, "is it not the mandate of a union to protect all its members?" (not to mention that in a socialist paradise 'rising up the ranks' should be a dirty phrase). He said that he didn't want to debate union politics, but, when pressed, he said that in their Christmas meeting (of 2004) they (the BCTF) were planning on addressing this issue.

Should not a union that has been in existance for 20 some years have dealt with this issue by now?

I have since heard that the BCTF sued the Liberal government for slander over a comment made about the possibility of a strike!! In March of 2004, during the union part of a staff meeting at my practicum school, a union official told teachers that if the Liberal government were re-elected there would be a strike. How can this be a slanderous utterance?

I am not taking the position that the government is blameless, but in a culture in which the professionals in question have been inculcated with the belief that their government is an inherently evil beauracracy that must be overthrown how can there be anything but animosity?

Allan, absolutely excellent post, and using the old Wobblies as an analogy was just about perfect. It is how we need to begin to think. We are in a different kind of situation than the trade union movement has been in since the post WW2,and it calls for us to carry out a thorough re-thinking on our parts, about all the inter-related issues of how we organize, our choice of a strategy, and the tactics we use.

I agree with you, the old Wobblies, even the old original OBU (One Big Union) of the past, are experiences that need revisiting. Which doesn't mean we necessarily have to exactly duplicate them, though we might, but more, learn from them, take from them what might be useful, and adapt them to our particular circumstances and time.

A period of creative thinking and strategizing, along with this experience of the teacher's strike, as Bailey pointed to in his also excellent piece, is what we need going forward from here.

We are in an evolving class war, not of our own creation, and we need to hunker down and get serious about fighting it, likely over an extended period.

There is much good "free" thinking going on here, from Gimpy, Sharing Is Good and many, many others.

Victory to the teachers and all of us.

Typical response of the Gordo following a newspaper aticle.......

I have just though of a way to end this whole dispute maybe all of our problems with what is coming out of Victoria lately. Send GW Bush an anonymous tip that the Victoria legislature building is a refuge for some high level Al Qaeda terrorists and let him look after them.

Opps Typo Article

Hate to tell you this highland (I haven't been in a union for over 20 years) but in the private sector when you start a job you're less than dirt. You may pay into everyone else's little group benefits and such but you don't benefit at all because you're on probation and can be fired anytime for anything. I don't read any righties here complaining about the lack of benefits when they start a job though.

Martin, in other words Gordo got some therapy and a hug.

GPM, start with a boycott of Canwest. They donate to the BC Liberals and back them up in their editorials and coverage in both print and on tv.

Coyote

Good post but I disagree with your comment that "We are in an evolving class war". I believe we are in an age old class war of the haves against the have nots. This is a conflict that has been going on since before the feudal ages. They (the ruling class) have always viewed their relationship with the working class a one of slave and master. This is apparent within union and non-nuion workplaces. After 40 years of dealing with these people through all kinds of labour relation problems (strikes, wage negotiations, disiplinary hearings etc at least it is apparent to me.

MORE SUPPORT FOR TEACHERS;
from Teachers' Unions of;
Mexico
Mexico City
Peru
Panama
Ecuador

SUPPORT FROM OTHER UNIONS
Hospital Employees Union
BC Government and Service Employees Union
BC Ferry and Marine Workers’ Union
BC Nurses’ Union
BC Carpenters’ Union
Federation of Post Secondary Educators
Canadian Union of Public Employees
Health Sciences Association
United Food and Commercial Workers
Union of Psychiatric Nurses of BC
B.C. FEDERATION OF LABOUR (CLC)

Teachers, here's an excerpt from Friday Oct. 7, 2005 Hansard. It has not been altered in any way, tempting as that might be!
______________________________________

J. Horgan: As we get to section 2, I have some difficulty with some language right off the top inasmuch as the title of the section says "Constitution of teachers' collective agreement." Yet teachers weren't party to this agreement beyond being named in the act. They weren't here collectively. They didn't agree. So how could that be the heading for the section?

Hon. M. de Jong: We have benefited from some four or five — depending on how we count them — days of debate, and I think it is abundantly clear to all that this agreement is provided for statutorily. It is not one that was arrived at through the free collective bargaining process. Nonetheless, the convention in terms of, again, the drafting of these pieces of legislation is to refer to it as such.

J. Horgan: I could suggest other language, like the "imposed agreement" act or the "brought down without consultation" act.

Later on the same page (the .... dots indicate that I have left out a section):

Hon. M. de Jong:
...... The member has, during the course of the second reading debate and again now, effectively and skilfully, I think, made his point that this is not a collective agreement of the sort that we generally consider or want to see emerge from a freely negotiated process. It is an imposed agreement, imposed by this Legislature.
___________________________________________

Just think, teachers! This was going on while YOU were on the picket lines!

wobblies, OBU? wow, this really is just plain over the top. how would we be reacting if, say, the police, or the fire department (those truly 'essential' services) had been on strike for the past five days? (begs a question - why DON'T they ever go on strike, anyway?)
after our houses had burnt and stores looted, would we not be a bit weary of the so-called 'class struggle'?
we aren't even CLOSE to class struggle, or the days of solidarity forever. sinclair stopped short of calling for a 'general strike' and said that 'essential services' such as BC Ferries, 'patient care and services for the disabled' (can someone enlighten me as the the 'essentialness' of these services?
i would suggest that one major user of BC Ferries on weekdays is, in fact, the commercial trucking industry. why the hell not shut the Ferries down? would the good Teamsters brothers be siding with the teachers and the BC Fed? have they even been asked? and, harkening back to the 80s - what about the cops, the firefighters, etc?
because it's a teacher's strike, that's why. and we're seeing, now, that by playing footsie with the BC Fed, we're finding out that, no, it's actually NOT about the students, it's about (surprise) politics.
i'd like to see a few new subjects in the BC schools curriculum. a curriculum based on the 'real world.' things like 'starting and running your own business.' 'responsible financial management, 101' (maybe a good course before secondary students attend university or college). 'working in a non-unionized environment - the pleasures of year-end bonuses, profit-sharing, and stock options.'
now, i know that most idealogues HATE the real world and all that it entails, and are 'waiting for the Big Day' when workers unshackle their chains, not ulike Xtian Evangelicals waiting for the Great Flood. (uh, gee, that actually happened, didn't it??)
the guys in those old photos of the Winnipeg General Strike don't look much like the well-dressed teachers in the class room or on the picket line. and i really don't think they'd be supporting their struggle, either...
next wednesday, i suggest that our pollster take another phone poll and see how sentiment changes. as a woman told me today in the parking lot (and, folks, i DID NOT bait her) 'i wonder how much longer parents are going to shut up. i kinda guess we have to.'

If anyone wants to know what this entire dispute is all about, take a look at the most recent Saint Jinny video on the BCTF website.

Saint Jinny continues with her big act. Today's installment "This weekend is a window" features Jinny standing in the dark, and the only visible thing are a bouquet of flowers she is holding, sent to her by her well wishers in the red guard, no doubt.

This new cult of personality seems to be enveloping all those around her. She's taking the BCTF down the road to doom and no one inside is trying to stop her.

Martin:

Teachers are held to a much higher standard of behaviour than premiers. I, personally, know two teachers in one district who have lost their jobs due to excess use of alcohol. Neither of them caused public disorder, was convicted of any offense, including driving under the influence, or brought alcohol onto school district property. Neither of them will ever work in the B.C. public school system again. No jesting there.

Also a district superintendent caught some years ago with her hands in the till, lost her licence through the College of Teachers. Educators can't behave like politicians ... with apologies to all you honest, hard-working politicians, wherever you are.

Honest, hard working politicians ???? And I thought black rhinos were rare.

Well, if there is someone out there, we MUST find him/her.

Note to sthrendyle: (I'd use the quote thing if I could figure it out.) You say, "it's actually NOT about the students, it's about (surprise) politics."

Schools and other public institutions have always been about politics. Teaching is a political act. Like Paulo Freire once wrote, "There is no such thing as a neutral education process". And further, I would say, there is no such thing as political neutrality. The books we use (or don't use) in schools are a "political" choice. The information we include (or leave out) is political. The policies, teaching style, and management of a classroom are choices based on the polical - and human - perspectives we carry around with us. Individual teachers represent individual perspectives which cover the entire political spectrum, but many of us - having been led into what we consider to be a helping profession - are at least humanitarian.

We BCTF members have always thought of ourselves as a "social justice union". Does that make us leftists? Only if justice is an exlusively leftist ideal.

Meanwhile the clock is ticking away the few hours left that could avert a major union action on Monday.

Mr. DeJong get a move on. It is 4:30 on Saturday and I would like my kids back in school Monday. Get the bargaining going now. Do not waste this last chance.

Only tonight and Sunday left then it is impossible for the you to bargain because those teachers are not going to go back without a negotiated contract and Gordo won't let you talk with them if they are not in school.

Jim Sinclair has given you the weekend way out. Can you not see it?

Cuinn:

You're last line "thought of ourselves as a "social justice union". Does that make us leftists? Only if justice is an exlusively leftist ideal."

is bang on.

GWNorth: in answer to your enquiry about how Gordo has paid his pennance... simply... he hasn't. He and his band of morons, in complicity with the media in the province hit the people of BC with enough whitewash over his drunk driving affair (affair in more ways than one I might add... lol) to thoroughly convince the sheep that the premier was truly sorry for what he had done and paid his debt to society by holding a teaful news conference.

A CONVICTED CRIMINAL PICKS HIS OWN SENTENCE

should have been the headline of the story in the Canworst Gliberal newspapers.

Yet the people of this province, blinded by whitewash and seduced by Campbell's bathwater and bullsh#t, gave him and his bunch of idiots another term in office. Granted, they turfed 30 odd of his collegues, but do you think he knows the difference???? No way. He's still governing like the dictatorial thug he is. Never mind shutting Victoria down for a day of protest, they should shut the entire province down.

People aren't willing to put up with a heavy handed bunch of idiots like the Fiberals gutting the collective agreement process. It's not the bargaining relationship that's broken between the BCTF and the BCPSEA, its the BCPSEA that's screwed up.. period. They don't negotiate, they only negotiate to a stalemate or to force government's hand to legislate a deal. The entire mob should be fired on the spot for gross incompetence. And parents... if you're thinking about joining the class action lawsuit against the BCTF, I wouldn't. Save your pennies because probably alot of you are getting ready to hit the bricks as members of other unions being held hostage by the Campbell Fiberals.

Umslopogaas:

Count on your kids being out of school for a few more weeks. These idiot Fiberals are too arrogant, too stupid to see any opportunity given to them to resolve the quagmire they've placed themselves and the parents and students of this province in. Mike deJong can only see where his next meal is coming from, that's how far sighted and outside the box thinking wise he really is.

It's funny that Sinclair hasn't consulted with ALL unions in this province, affiliated and unaffiliated, and come up with a true plan of escalation, up to and including a general strike. That way when he does speak, he speaks with a unified voice. I can say with some confidence that right now... he doesn't.

sthrendyle, firefighters and cops have gone on strike in numerous Canadian jurisdiction when conditions and petty politicians have backed them up far enough.

And speaking of the Winnipeg General Strike, which I suspect some of your ancestors likely took part in on the side of the goons and employers, I am glad you raised it.

That strike was mirrored by a similar strike in Seattle and a great many other North American cities as the ending of the so-called great war showed returning troops how the ruling classes had been leaching off everyone as their comrads died in the trenches.

Bloated and over-confident, the employer classes, with their jackbooted police goons at their side intended to set an example for other workers who might ask for more.

But these paragons of virtue misread the returning troops who quickly read the tea leaves and realized the fascism they had defeated overseas has taken root in their own home towns while they had been away.

Police on horseback, weapons drawn, charged into a march by veterans and workers, breaking heads and bodies in one of the most viscious and ugly scenes ever played out on Canadian soil.

The Winnipeg Police Riots and General Strike was initially seen as a great victory for the guys who stayed home from the war and made big fortunes while others died for them.

However, 86 years later that incident is seen as a defining moment in Canadian labour history, a victory for working people who managed to organize and mobilize in Winnipeg like no where else before.

Oh, BTW Sthredlye, the real reason you don't see police and firefighters on the picket lines very often is if a negotiated contract cannot be worked out the employer has little choice but to go to binding arbitration.

There are two reason this government didn't offer the teachers binding arbitration.

The first is because Gordon Campbell's Liberals don't believe education for children is essential, unless it's in a private school that gets public funding.

The second is that government has it's collective head so far ups its own ideological arse, scheming to bust a class enemy that it can't keep it's story straight.

Go to a library and pull up copies of the Manitoba Free Press from the time of that 1919 event.

I can almost guarantee that when reading it you'll have to turn back to the front page to be sure you aren't reading a current Canwest newspaper.

The inflamitory rhetoric passed off as news almost a century ago is alive and well and, ironically, being directed today from an office in Winnipeg.

highland: obviously you are not in possession of all the facts in this issue.The government has forced this civil disobedience on the teachers. Now the government spin doctors are trying desperately to call it a strike so Gordo can say "see I told you so".As far as your lack of protection goes, in the private sector their is a labour ruling that new employees must work a probationary period (I beleive it is thirty days) before they can be covered by the contract. Yet I am unaware of any union in this country (except the rat unions) who will not cover a employee. And in 40 years in unions I have yet to see a local not cover a non union employee for injustices.

Sounds like the Wobblies will be reappearing in Canada with greater and greater power, Allan, particularly after the attempted murder of United Food and Commercial Workers President, Doug O'Halloran, yesterday.

The RCMP are holding 5 people in custody for running him the road, and the analysis of the crime scene at which they determined it was a murder attempt was all heard over their scanners.

Ahem, "for running him off the road..." that is. Wish there was an edit feature on these posts.

I wonder if the seething hostility that oozes from shifty-eyed Mike when he is on camera is truly for the teachers or if it is actually the deflection of his feelings for the premiere and this distasteful job he is directed to do?

Nah, what could I have been thinking? I momentarily forgot these Liberals at the top were born without hearts, but not without lust.

Te Aro, that is shocking. It sounds like one of those horror stories we hear about in South America where the employers hire death squads rather than a negotiating team.

Which UFCW Local is he with or where in Canada?

It has been my experience with the BCTF that they do cover TOCs. Sadly, however, they cannot control the administrative personnel when it comes time to hire someone whom they've decided is not going to get a continuing contract because they made waves. It must be very frustrating for someone who stands up for his or her rights. We know it happens, yet we are powerless.

Offending company is Lakeside Packers in Brooks, Alberta, near Lethbridge, owned by Arkansas-based Tyson Foods. They process roughly 40 per cent of our Canadian cattle. CP Report.

Thanks Te Aro, I found reference to it on CBC's site.

Police have laid charges but won't talk.

Interesting.

But it still sounds like South American employer relations, which of course was picked up from Dole and other gringo exploiters.

Oh, I forgot. They have South American style government in Alberta, don't they.

Now it's starting to make sense.

If teachers are infuriated by this decision then it just shows how out of touch with reality they are.

Brown could have fined the union big bucks right on the spot and sent the union leadership to prison indefinitely.

Justice Brown did about the minimum she could do. There is no prospect of a successful appeal.

If the union was serious about the quality of education they would start working with school boards on getting rid of the 10% of teachers who do more harm than good in the class room.

Yes, well, darkness is falling...

http://www.ktvu.com/news/5094332/detail.html

This incident just happened in California.

I'm going to check out the Toronto Globe and Star for the ALTA info