Campbell's vendetta against the BCTF goes far beyond what is reasonable. It brings into question his mental health, it is truly bizarre.

The BCTF are a large union but conservative by nature. They want fair treatment and they want to compromise.

Campbell wants to slay them as though they were an attacking dragon.

The excellence of the school system is a reflection of the teachers who are the union. Doesn't he understand that?

It's a shame that Campbell is surrounded by lacklustre characters such as Bond and DeJong. He needs (as we all do) to have his ideas challenged, so that they are not personal reactions to past slights.

I'm hoping that Carole Taylor will sharpen things up - where is she on this issue? Finance or not, we need some sanity here!

Gordon Campbell has now had TWO opportunities to become a leader. He is letting this one slip by, too.

Crawford Kilian, thanks for the memories.

Although not a union member, I vividly recall those days in 1983 when we recognized the larger battle being waged. I remember the surge of joy as trades, professions, ordinary folk joined the protest. At last, we thought, the people will speak and things will be made fair.

But flash-frozen in my memory, too, is that awful image of Jack Munro standing so comfortably with then-premier Bill Bennett, on the patio of Bill's home in Kelowna, as together they announced the end of that courageous battle. Capitulation.

It was one of the worst moments in B.C. labour history and I still can't shake off the sickening shock of betrayal.

Do I only imagine it now ... or were Bill & Jack holding drinks in their hands, as they made their patio appearance that evening? Could've been water, I suppose. Soon-to-be-privatized water.

I wish the B.C.T.F. courage, strength, and a solid win in this round of battles.

Teacher and/or local labour council rallies will continue to be held throughout B.C. today after penalties are assessed in court. I hope they will be attended (or heck - initiated even!) by Tyee readers and other members of the public who see this battle for what it is. Teachers appreciate the honks and waves and doughnuts on the line, but now we need your bodies in front of the cameras!

Have the teachers considered renting some office space and bypassing the government with employee-run schooling managed by a co-operative of teachers?

Forgot to add, "private, discounted employee-run schooling."

Good article, this is a watershed moment for BC and for everyone. Does a government have the right to made its opponents criminal overnight to push its agenda forward. I have heard people say that governments
are elected to govern and make laws, but governments are not elected to create criminals out of normal citizens exerting their rights. This is a union and non union issue, when a governing body loses its way and
starts to pass bills that criminalize the public and strips them of basic rights. We are dealing with a creeping fascism, how many would obey a law that made public debate illegal. Basically we should have had a
general strike when they ripped up contracts, the union movement dropped the ball. But this is the time to make a stand. Give me a break, Gordo who obeys no court ruling and rips up legal contracts. this convicted felon telling folks their breaking the law. Its time to fight or roll over and die, I am not a union member but will fight these fascist.

It may sound extreme but Hitler was never in contempt of court and never broke any German law while in office.
This bunch needs a wake up call.
General Strike Friday if the courts fail us, the courts don't make the laws , we do.

Isn't Campbell's real gambit is to so destroy BC's education system, discredit it so much, to make it politicaly possible to privitise it? Certainly this is the game with BC Ferries, as the fleet is being run down deliberately to make it cheaper to sell.

I guess Campbell & Co. want American style rote education, as he loves the Americans so much. A General strike, hell no, we need a revolution to stop this corrupt government!

My own town, though small but with a strong labour history and tradition, is having a support rally for teaches on Friday, which I and the Mrs will certainly attend.

It is difficult still to say, how this struggle will develop in the end, and its outcome.But, regardless what happens here, the greater likelihood is that we are just at the beginning of something that is likely to be more protracted than we would hope, or a single strike of teachers possibly secure. And I would prefer to be wrong on this.

Though much still depends on the militancy and long term resolve of teachers, if we are to avoid another kind of labour bloodbath here-, for they are again the red flag warning that the entire trade union movement and the working class itself is under attack from ruling class elements that want to send us to our graves or back into chains.

What can happen here though, with the right outcome, assuming that trade union leadership does not fall down again, and that "the class" is awake and paying attention, is that this sorry period of capitalist development can begin to be turned around.

And I hope Labour leadership is truly listening here: Whatever this ending outcome form might be, it is important for you and us that this NOT be perceived in the end as another Operation Solidarity or HEU defeat, but that teachers and we walk away with at least some sense of victory and real accomplishment here. Whatever picture you migh attempt to paint, it is important that WE not feel another sense of betrayal and defeat here. There has been too much of that already.

The ruling class, turned to a neoconservative economic and political ideolgoy, has begun this fight, but we will end it, be it sooner or be it later. My own hope being, that they and their socio-economic form will be gone in the process, and a new, entirely unique democratic economy and political social form begin to evolve in its place.

Victory to the teachers, and the rest of us.

Wonderful article. At that time in my life, I was a contractor. I actually believed what little press I had read, radio I listened to. I really thoght it was all about money. I couldn't believe it was about working and learning conditions and the enslavement of this province's working people. Soon after that, I went back to university and became a teacher. The people of BC need this sense of history. Why doesn't this kind of story get published on air and in print? If I can change my belief structure, I am sure that most others can as well.

Good article - however, with all the mention of the So Creds and the Libs - Was it out of convienience that the writer didn't mention anything about the NDP's stuggles against the BCTF during the 90's?

When the nazi's invaded Holland and began implementing their evil agenda the Dutch held a general strike in protest. I see no difference here.
Our province has been invaded by a loose affiliation of greedy, looting business men masquerading as corrupt politicians. Aided by a propaganda spewing sham of a media organization and funded by the corporate elite who are their true masters they have set the stage for the rape of our province.
There is no place for middle class people in the new era, only for wal-mart workers and millionaires, rulers and slaves.
Has no one noticed the smirk pasted on gordon campbell's face when he addresses the media?
That is the grimace of someone who can't believe what he's getting away with.

I want my vote for the BC Lib's to result in firing all these BCTF teachers like Ronald Reagan did to the air traffic controllers.
I expect the govt. to diminish the influence of Public Sector Unions on our economy.

If Reagan could fire the ATCs and Gretzky could be traded, well, anything can happen.

I doubt it though. To win this, the BCTF has to hold the hammer of general strike. Firing the teachers outright is very likely to deliver that general strike mandate to all of the unionized workers of BC. Could the Libs be that stupid?

Yes, they could!

Yammer says "I doubt it though. To win this, the BCTF has to hold the hammer of general strike. Firing the teachers outright is very likely to deliver that general strike mandate to all of the unionized workers of BC. Could the Libs be that stupid?"

Conversely, considering the most other PS unions successfully negotiated agreements with the Libs - do you think the PS unions could be stupid enough to have a general strike. If that actually occured, the George Heyman's of the world better spruce up their resumes.

Reality is, the government (regardless if it's the Libs or the NDP - which I'll mention again, oddly isn't mentioned in this article) will always have the hammer just because of the fact it's their signature on the paycheques and not the union leaders.

Another reality (as I'm sitting here taking time off of work and school to look after my 7 year old daughter - because her after school care is not licensed to take her all day) is that most parents I know is getting a little sick and tired of the BCTF and other PS unions look for every opening to try to force the governments hand therefore impacting me, my wife, my daughter, my employer, my wife's employer. More so than anything Campbell or his government has ever done. (We never had to scramble and re-schedule our lives whenever Campbell did anything).

You can blame this on government policies all you want, however, ultimately, it was the BCTF that made the decision to close the schools in protest. There was many ways the BCTF could have handled this and effectively communicated their message without having to give in to the urge to stick their collective fingers in the government's eyes at every opportunity, and in turn impacting many other parent's lives.

I for one didn't vote to have the BCTF run this province.

You know, rtwba, the BCTF actually did negotiate directly with the NDP with each legislated agreements of the 90s. It was the BCPSEA that was unable to deal with the teachers. With the NDP agreements, the BCTF voted each time to ratify what the province had offered, albeit somewhat begrudgingly because we knew that local bargaining made the more sense. Local bargaining had worked very well for most districts in the past. I think that the NDP wanted to streamline the process because not every local union and not every school district could work things out as efficiently as others. They were hoping to improve the process. But the lesson is learned has been, local control over local resources is better than branch plant operations dealt with from on high. Teachers are now required to be far too highly educated to accept willy nilly the whims of government bodies just because they say this is the way something must be. Teachers are the experts on education, and they take their profession and their duty to the students and their families very seriously.

Nice statement, Coyote. Thanks.

Now I'm pondering:

You live in ... Cumberland?

rtbwa wrote:

Easy to say. Please list all the different [/[B]B] ways we could have tried that could have been effective.... I'm dying to hear them! The truth is that we have been negotiating for over a year, have been sending the message, have been following the rules of job action under the essential services law (until a contract was imposed on us) set out by this government and none of these methods have been effective. You say you and your family haven't been impacted yet by any of Campbell's decisions.... well I'd say that on the one hand you are not up-to-date on what is happening in your child's school and on the other you will soon realize how deep you will be affected by Campbell's laws if the labour movement doesn't win this one.

But please get back to me. I can't wait to see all the many things we could have done effectively!

SharingIsGood, Thanks for responding, however the fact remains that the teachers were still legislated back to work since 93. (No matter what back channel they had with the NDP).

However, I do agree with what your saying as to why a negotiated settlement was always a huge challenge - I also think that local barganing is a better way. Or even better, as they do in Manitoba, where the Ed Shryer NDP government of the 70's basically implemented a binding arbitration mechanism in return to no teacher job action (which is actually legislated, over there).

Where I part ways with you is the fact that if the teachers want to convey themselves as professional (and I acknowledge they are professional) why can't they resolve this in a professional way?

Wouldn't you think they can be above all the petty squables, lawsuits and other antagonistic actions against (or in response to) the government?

rtbwa: why is it that you seem to begin your arguements where the teachers walked out. Had the government bargained in good faith this situation may never have taken place. Therin lies the problem. THE GOVERNMENT.
I don't beleive that you are so blind as not to see what is actually going on. I'm sorry you have to take time off to care for your child. But I also beleive that if this government would allow proper daycare in this province you wouldn't be at home. Or if you were given a fair wage so that your wife did not have to work you wouldn't be at home. Or vise versa if you chose. A lot of this stuff was on the agenda in 1983 and I wish I knew what the coversation was like with Jack And Bill. But with the resulting solution I can only guess. I do know one thing. The` government initiated both situations and we were lied to in 1983 just as we have been in 2005.

AnneAlly: - Please don't make blind assumptions of how in tuned I am with my daughter and her education, I'm quite aware of what's going on in her classroom. I'm also young enough to remember how it was when I was in elementry school (back in the 70's)and what it was like. I still even have the class photos of my grade 2 class and counted 35 students. However, that's neither here or there, right now, because everything has changed from class composision to how students are evaluated and are deemed as special needs (seems that everyone that breaths oxygen needs a perscription for Riddlin)

The fact is that the BCTF can drop buckets of water on our heads and tell us that it's raining everyday - I'm not buying it. Again, I didn't see Jinny's name on the ballot on May 17th, nor would I have voted for this. It's the BCTF's decision to protest this way - not the governments.

Crawford Killian aptly describes the kind of thinking behind the idea "kill the chicken, scare the monkeys":

The word "pretense" is an important word in that thought and in this struggle. How hard are we willing to fight for "real" bargaining power? The pretense of bargaining power is pretty well the state of labour as it exists in this province right now.

Seems the catch-22 of this corporate-capitalist world is that we fall in love with it way too easily. It fools us. It's pick-up line is hard to refuse, repeated endlessly through the wooing of its advertising.

So no wonder there has been much denial over how much ground has been lost and much fear of having to risk losing those things that have entrenched so many in the corporate quicksand.... at an increasingly younger and younger age.

And thus Campbell aims his well-calculated ire at the teachers and "the so-called loss of babysitting" conspiracy in their struggle... using it to plant the fear that the teachers, (criminals that they are), are putting our cozy, comfortable, material world at risk.

Only it ain't really so cozy or comfortable anymore. At least not for a lot of us. So many human rights lost, our right to collective bargaining stripped bare.

The words from that old Janis Joplin song come to mind: "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." There is a real power in that. We just have to have the courage to use it.

I find watching the news on Global and BCTV quite nauseating with thier one sided corporate slant. Hey Parsons and Roxford your puppets strings are showing.

So far I have heard the BCTF’s cause compared to the fight for basic civil rights in the US and the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa.

And now the Liberals are being compared to Hilter. Are you all really that delusional in self importance that you feel a a pay raise equates to some of the worst atrocities in the world?

Also I would like you to tell me the ways in which the BCTF has bargained in good faith? Since you all seem to think that they do. By demanding that it’s their way or the highway?
It doesn’t make sense to me why other unions who have taken 0% increases in this period would support teachers who are asking the government to make an exception for them only. Unless this is the big unions way of setting a precedent so that their members can get retroactive pay increase and large increases for their members. Essentially what the big unions are doing is using the children as pawns for their own personal gain. They know they can hide their true motives behind the guise of helping children. When all they really want is increased pay for their members and in turn increased dues for them to fight future political battles

Bobby McGee written by a Canadian.Gordon Lightfoot.

Thank you so much, Crawford, for this article. I was an education student in 1983, and I remember taking part in the Solidarity marches in Vancouver. It was inspiring, and a bit frightening, to realize the extent to which my chosen career was going to be influenced by mean-spirited politicians.

My first day of teaching, up in the Queen Charlottes, ended with a general meeting and a strike vote.

You are right. There is so much at stake. I hope that the clamour for a general strike becomes overwhelming, and we fight as hard as necessary to force Gordon Campbell and his right-wing henchmen to modify their vicious stance.

Where is Jim Sinclair these days? I love his speeches, but I want to hear him show leadership, and announce that plans are in the works for a general strike.

JIm, JIM, jim

If you sit down at a table with an employer who says, maximum salary increase 0-0-0% and we're cutting sick pay benefits by 2%, HOW do you bargain with them? That's the top!

There has been no one at a table to talk to.

Terms have been dictated, do you agree or not.

As for union increases, look at the 10 year averages - the teachers have fallen behind and a reasonable cost of living increase is, indeed, reasonable.

Jinny Sims keeps saying, "let's talk." The government says, yes, let's, do you agree to 0-0%? No? How about 0-0-0%? Some conversation.

The teachers strike is not an isolated event. HEU, Telus, CBC, Teckcominco. Whether it is the governement you negotiate with or a private sector company, the end result is the same. This is an orgainized attack by the right wing and thier supporters to kick the hell out of all Unions.

We cannot continue to sit idely by and watch as the government imposes another crappy contract on its employees. It not just the teachers that are getting the short end of the stick, but so are our children in terms of inadequate eductation.

The private sector after watching Campbell and Co in action is just as ruthless in their bargaining tatics. We the people have to make the government understand that we've had enough of thier crap and that we have the fortitude to make them stop.

Unfortunately some people will be inconvienced by strike action, but its nothing compared to what they will suffer if we do nothing.

Readers, please try to ignore Ron and Jim. Who gives a damn what they have to say anyway, lets stay focused on our agenda.

Uh, Garry, "Me and Bobby McGee" was written by an American - Kris Kristofferson.

Gord covered it, Janis Joplin had the big hit with it.

What has happened here is the the Government has removed the right to collectively bargain from the Teachers, pure and simple. If they can to it to the teachers they can do it to everyone. And, unless they are stopped, that is precisely what they will do.

Jim says
"And now the Liberals are being compared to Hilter. Are you all really that delusional in self importance that you feel a a pay raise equates to some of the worst atrocities in the world? "

History Lesson for Jimmy In BC.
All along the way, Hitler would propose or actually promulgate regulations that sliced away at German citizens' freedoms -- usually aimed at small, vulnerable sectors of society (labor unionists, communists, Jews, mental defectives, et al.) -- and few said or did anything to indicate serious displeasure. In the early days, on those rare occasions when there was concerted negative reaction, Hitler would back off a bit. And so the Nazis grew bolder and more voracious as they continued slicing away at civil society. Many Germans (including some of Hitler's original corporate backers) were convinced Nazism would collapse as it became more and more extreme; others chose denial. It was easier to look the other way.

Oh Jimmy...
Try to use some grey matter, the comparisons are very clear. One day 48,000 citizens are allowed to strike which is a hard fought for and won democratic right , the next day they are criminals and let the spewing teacher
bashing and hatred begin. Just because you are willing to look the other way because a stripping of a right does not affect you or your extremely narrow political view does not mean others are so self absorbed and willing to roll over.

I wonder how you would feel Jim when your rights start to erode, maybe the gov will pass a low forbidding you to certain
freedoms of association. Maybe one day you will find yourself in custody on a "Canadian security certificate" with no rights
as a citizen and no rights for an attorney . What then Jimmy, should I look the other way and let them stick it to ya.

And my comments if read correctly a day ago about Gordo's mandate show the difference between me and you. Yes Jim, we all know Gordo won the most seats, we also know more people around BC voted against him, SOOO his mandate is weak and he does not have support of the majority. You see democracy as one voting day every 4 plus years and then dictatorial rule in-between elections. I see democracy as what citizens do everyday, the majority are not with Gordo and HE HAS NO MANDATE TO CRIMINALIZE HUGE SECTORS OF THIS SOCIETY. NOT WITHOUT OUT
PERMISSION. WE HOLD ALL THE CARDS.

rtbwa, what were the teachers supposed to do? The gov't wouldn't discuss working conditions or a pay increase. What were they going to talk about? The weather?

The teachers did not close the schools, they just didn't show up for work. Call the gov't and demand that the schools be opened without teachers so that you can drop off your kids.

Your right kootenay, just ignore them. Its hard to ignore ignorance, I still hold hope for them. If anyone stands to benefit from more special needs teachers its Ron and Jimmy.

How can anyone advocate the loss of citizens rights to fix a problem. I was at the rally downtown. This is going to get ugly if things go badly in court today

rtbwa, Can you honestly believe that Gordon Campbell's government is more truthful than 38,000 teachers on this issue?

Frank the government will discuss classroom issues just not in the exact way the BCTF wants. They offered the BCTF the chance to discuss these issues with other stakeholders yet the BCTF wants the sole right to determine classroom conditions which is wrong. What’s good for the BCTF isn’t what necessarily right for students. You all seem to miss that point. A union is looking out for number 1 and not the children’s bests interests.

I will also remind you that schools are closing due to the fact that we lose 30,000 plus students a year. The BCTF fights against closing schools for the sole fact that it means less teachers which means less dues which leads to less money to fight their political jihads.

And I guess it’s official that Stuart is truly delusional.

To all you teachers: What are you going to say when you catch a student high, drunk or in the process of smoking a joint. This should be interesting.

I will also add. Once again. How have teachers bargained in good faith?

Some things you can do...

1) Made at least one call and email per day to Gordo and the labour minister demanding they grow up and negotiate a fair deal. (have your family and friends do the same)

2) Join the teachers on the picket lines, have your kids hang out their for a few hours a day.
3) Get people out to the rallies, Talk to your friends and family . When things get ugly with the MSM, just turn them in. Go to the CBSC(Canadian broadcast standards council)
and file a complaint against any untrue or hateful claim by red neck radio(Jimmy's and Ron's station) The station has to respond and their is a cost in doing this.

If the Liberals succeed in breaking the BCTF, it would be very interesting to see how many teachers would continue to teach in "public" schools.

Despite what many folks seem to believe, teachers are educated professionals. They are trained and experienced in using the resources at their disposal to achieve learning outcomes, and are very autonomous in their own classrooms. This is what makes it a profession. (Nobody tells a dentist what to do when someone is in his chair. He is the professional.)

Teachers also invest a lot of themselves in their students. It has to be that way, or else there would be no real incentive to continue struggling with such deteriorating learning conditions as exist in BC. The salaries aren't that high. So when it comes to removing the teachers' autonomy, failing to provide enough resources, maintaining a so-so salary, and treating teachers with disrespect and contempt, I wonder how many teachers would want to continue working! Many I know were on the verge of throwing in the towel before this latest attack, myself included.

But now, the issue is so much more than just teaching! It is about workers' rights. It is about not backing down to oppressive government. It is about courage to oppose a government which rips up existing contracts, legislates its own, and criminalizes those who resist this injustice.

JIm, what are the classroom issues the Libs are willing to discuss and who are the other stakeholders you mention?

As for schools closing, the problem is that its not just all the kids in one school who suddenly don't show up. Its a few here and there spread across the province and yet when you close a particular school there are in fact a lot of kids forced to bus, sometimes for several hours as we saw in Wells.

As for what a teacher would say if they caught a student drunk, I guess they would tell them not to act like the premier.

Management has every right to set up daycare in school facilities.... just hire someone, anyone, hopefully with a clean criminal record check, and pay them oh say $5/hour per child at 30 children per childminder and use the teacher's wages they don't have to pay.. oh wait... that would work out to $150/hour!!!

Quick, bring the teachers back and pay them just a tiddly bit more than 0 0 0!!!!

"To all you teachers: What are you going to say when you catch a student high, drunk or in the process of smoking a joint. This should be interesting."

What a load of BS this argument is-- if you can even call it one. What would you tell your kids, Jim? Have you ever broken a law? How about speeding? Could you honestly tell your kids you have never broken a law? If you have broken a law, does that some how remove your moral authority to educate children on what you believe is right or wrong? What world do you live in? It's certainly not based in reality.

What I would tell my kids about breaking the law is that there are legal and other consequences. Some laws are good, some are bad. Some are worth fighting against, some are not. Teachers are aware of the consequences of their actions. I happen to think the law they are breaking is justified, and for the greater good -- I would tell my kids just that. Inform them and let them come to their own decisions. that's what living in a democracy is about.

As for drugs or alcohol, I would be sure they knew the legal consequences, but more importantly, I would tell them about the health consequences.

The provincial Liberals were democratically elected to decide how to spend our tax dollars, NOT THE BCTF. The BCTF should have zero say in how educational funding is allotted, and while they are busy hiding behind children these "professionals" should be fined, jailed, and subsequently dismissed. Teachers and other public sector union sheep should run for public office if they want to get their hands on the treasury; otherwise their transparent attempts to gorge at the taxpayer's trough will ensure me ample comic relief.

P.S. Sorry you guys lost the last two elections.

The teachers did not close the schools, they just didn't show up for work. Call the gov't and demand that the schools be opened without teachers so that you can drop off your kids

Frank - The teachers arbitrarlly made the DECISION not to show up for work - the government may have ticked the BCTF off, but the BCTF had many choices on how to handle this, with out screwing up everyone's life.

You can't justify their protest to many of us anymore than you can make blanket calloius assumptions as to why me, my wife and most importantly, my child are frustrated by what is mearly a hissy-fit and a show of power by the BCTF.

Sorry you lost the two before that and the next two.

Being elected does not give you a mandate to pass laws against people you don't like. The Liberals have no moral authority to strip teachers of their right to strike.

Perhaps if the NDP was in power and passed a law that said everyone had to belong to a union you'd get it.

yes, the teachers decided they weren't going to show up for work. However, they don't own the schools, if you want them open tell your gov't to open them up and provide you with free daycare.

You say "many" choices but what choices did they have?

As for "hissy-fit" let me explain the way the world works. Other people don't owe you anything. If they decide they aren't going to take care of your kids and forego the wages they would have received there's nothing you can do about it except allow the province to turn into a dictatorship where anyone who disagrees with the gov't is stripped of their property and thrown in jail.

This dispute is not about working conditions or students, it's about a union that is upset that it is not in control. It's about the BCTF's contempt for the BC Liberals.

The call by other unions for a general strike is their political method to continue their election battle against the gov't.

This whole cry of it being about workers rights is ridiculous. The BCTF cannot accept that life isn't fair, and you don't always get it your way. Time to suck it up like the majority of the population who don't get a 5% raise every year.

I hope the fines imposed this afternoon are steep, and I hope it hits the union hard. I for one am sick of these bloated, power hungry unions trying to run the province.

First they came for the jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
They they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
--Pastor Martin Niemoller

poindexter, to paraphrase the immortal words of the dean from Animal House, drunk and ignorant is no way to go through life.

So verso you tell you kids that anarchy is fine and that they can selectively choose what laws they follow. That’s interesting. If your kid got suspended for smoking a joint would you congratulate him for civil disobedience well done? After all you can make strong arguments that simple possession of marijuana is an unjust law. And after all we can follow whatever laws we feel are just and break all other. (I don’t mean to suggest that your kids in fact do smoke weed)

If the BCTF is crushed by the heavy fines and lawsuits they better not come back crying poor for taxpayer bailouts. As we now all know they are prepared to receive their punishment. So they better not complain when it’s handed down.

And Frank when the NDP was in power the did institute laws like that. For example you couldn’t work on government contracts without being unionized. Did we general strike over that? No, we acted like adults.

hey Frank, neither is being an NDPer

The court rules - the BCTF cannot pay strike pay to its members.

The employer, apparently asked for $14,000,000.

More to follow . . .

No you didn't JIm, the media railed against it every day. Callers to open line compared the NDP to Castro and Mao.

In spite of that, the gov't didn't stop non-union people working on other projects or private sector projects. And because private sector employers prefer non-union workers the size of the union sector decreased over the years. The NDP never forced people to unionize.

If the BCTF is crushed by the gov't taking their property I doubt they will return to work happily. Maybe somewhere else but not here.

And you ignored my point that if a teacher found a kid drunk they could just tell him to stop acting like the premier.

poindexter, thanks for your contribtion, enlightening as always.

sorry - that's from BCTV news

The decision of the court was to bar the union from paying their members any strike pay-, ie starve them into submission. There were other elements but that seems to be the main one.

Democracy for working people, what semblance of it remained as a lingering illusion was killed for teachers, and the entire labour movement today, with this decision of the court bitch.

Full blown fascism is blowing in the wind.

It's time to call out the General Strike, and hold the line. (There needs to be an accounting, settlement of accounts with those scabs out there too. Start marking them.)

I hope these trade union leaders are on the ball with what will be the cash flow needs of these teachers and support workers. Time to start moving underground with our resources, as quickly as practical, and building a long term resistance.

Time to fill the streets and join the fight with these fascist assholes.

No matter how this appears to be settled eventually, this engagement, we all need to understand that it isn't over, but really just beginning. And we need to prepare for it, and to build the next stage of the fight with these ruling class thugs.

This is a blow, no doubt. But one we need to absorb and rise above and work our way around.

Frank - We (my family) and many others I know are not asking for free daycare, nor are many of us are implying that schools are daycares they are not!

Look, you can dole that strawman out like candy all you want, but the fact is my child, is bored to death - and wants to go back to school! In the last weeks of summer my child was excited about going back to school, she enjoys school - As for me and my wife - I stated what our problem is in a previous post -

It comes down to all of our commitments are tied into and synch with the fact our expectations are that kids go to school within a certain time. Expectations made by our employers, families, care providers and children all thrown out of whack because the BCTF lacks the capacity to be the bigger party and ALWAYS resort to antagonism (doesn't matter if they're fighting fire with fire or not) - where the PUBLIC and not the government is impacted by their desicion.

Your right people don't owe me anything - and conversely I don't owe them anything, so why is this MY and my family's problem?

And to be serious Frank, if the Lib's were truly a dictatorship, as you assert, this discussion would be moot. The Lib's didn't dictate that the teachers had to be teachers, nor did they dictate that the teachers had to work in the public system, either.

Frank I fail to see how my comment is any less "enlightening" than your calling me drunk and ignorant because I have an opinion.

I guess you can dish it out but don't take it too well eh buddy?

It will be interesting to see the judges rationale for not fining the union but denying strike pay to members. I see this as the unions responsibilty, not individual members. Perhaps it's the judges way of saying "don't try me Ms Sims, your members better be at work tomorrow"

poindexter, maybe the judge will order you to go over rtbwa's house and take care of his kids. I'd like that and it would solve their entertainment problem.

"So verso you tell you kids that anarchy is fine and that they can selectively choose what laws they follow. "

No Jim, when did I mention anarchy? I think you are you misrepresenting my argument.

I said there are consequences to breaking laws -- both legal and otherwise. No one is free from those consequences. Some laws, though, are worth fighting. There are many ways you can fight an unjust law: through the courts, through civil disobedience, to name just two. I would never recommend someone breaks the law for the sake of breaking it. I think the distinction I'm making here, is that just because something is law it is not automatically a good law.

If you have a sound reasonable argument, even moral argument, why a law is unjust, then it's worth fighting to change it. In fact, you have an obligation too, if you feel that strongly about it. Isn't better that someone understands why something is wrong or illegal, than never questioning why it is? Isn't this what we want from a citizenship in a democracy?

" If your kid got suspended for smoking a joint would you congratulate him for civil disobedience well done? After all you can make strong arguments that simple possession of marijuana is an unjust law."

I happen to believe it is an unjust law, but that is bedsides the point. If my kid was caught smoking a joint at school he would be punished at school (suspension etc...) and at home -- in other words there would be consequences to his or her actions. And yes, he or she may still believe that smoking pot is okay. What am I going to do, beat it into them that I'm right and they're wrong? I never said that I wouldn't have my own house rules that my child has to live by. Out on their own, they can live by their own moral code and with the consequences of that code.

You never answered my question, Jim. Have you ever broken a law? If so, does that mean you can't teach your kids what's right and wrong?

Now2 that the striking teachers will not get any strike pay I suspect they will be anxious to rewsume paying taxes. ( and union dues )

rtbwa, if your kids are bored its not the teacher's fault.

Your life expectations are based on other people showing up for work. Even when they are denied any input into how their workplace is run. When that happens you have stated that they should just keep showing up for work or the gov't will be right in fining them, ie, taking away their property a bit at a time until they are forced back, poorer in the process.

Its your family's problem because they're YOUR kids. No one at the BCTF forced you to have kids.

As for your point about a dictatorship, if the Libs force a contract onto workers without negotiation and then force those same workers to work under conditions that only that same gov't determines, you tell me how that's different from a classic dictatorship? Simply because they're free to quit? Is that your end-game scenario? You want to see the teachers resign en masse? Because that is their only option left.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Which needs to become our rallying cry. Hunker down, prepare yourselves, and get ready for the next stage of this long term fight.

Don't be foolish. Don't engage in what you can only lose. But prepare yourselves to take the fight to them, and build a victory.

And read that well known piece again, posted by the Professor above, from the fight against fascism at another time. It is apropo here.

The entire capitalist state, including the courts, are moving overtly over to become instruments of repression

If anyone cares just think about who this rather nasty misogynistic government is zeroing in on. Women. Note that since they have a been elected they have 'attacked' only unions that have majority female employees. Nurses,hospital and care home workers,and now teachers. Note also that the majority of the dollars given in tax breaks are to male dominated businesses. (Can you say Howe Street?) Isn't just possible that this government and its minions are attempting to get even with the brighter half of our population? And how about Ms Bond and her 180 degree change from supporting teachers to villifying them. She is on record as a trustee of supporting teachers. I wonder what prompted such a reversal? Hmmmm!

Coyote, great to see your posts again. I took a few months off too but I was concerned you had left our little community altogether.

Back to the trenches eh?

I wonder if any other union will offer strike pay to the BCTF teachers?

Would it be illegal to gift them each the equivalent amount per day?

Will ALL union coffers be frozen?

It's apparently a BRAVE NEW WORLD.

My god. Coyote, crawl back in your cave you neanderthal. We don't need that crap in this province.

And Burgess, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you steal it from some movie plot?

Where do you people come from? Wow.

Jinny Sims should get down off the cross, somebody could use the wood. Its absolutely laughable to listen to Ms. Sims ramble on about the grave injustices her heroic membership are standing up against. This is simply a contract dispute between the fiscally responsible proxy for the taxpayer, and another public sector union's sense of entitlement. The BCTF's self-serving motives are sleazy and transparent.

Somehow I doubt that Ms. Sims will have her picture alongside Rosa Parks and Nelson Mandela in the annals of history as she would desire.

Time to throw all the union money in a car and hand it out at the picket lines in the form of cash. That money was handed to the union under the assumption that in the case of a strike they would receive it back as strike pay. The court obviously is contemptuous of that relationship and its decisions should be ignored.

Perhaps I can send that judge a couple of texts on contract law and political philosophy, she has obviously forgotten what the phrase "free society" means.

birdstomach, somehow I doubt you're much of a fan of Rosa and Nelson either.

Louise:
1. No, that would be contempt of court.
2. Yes, because "gifts" would be contempt of court.
3. Yes, if someone is foolish enough to go in contempt of court.

I think the judge made a wise decision. She saved the union from financial ruin, **IF** they back to work. Otherwise look for big fines if the contempt continues.

A general strike appears to be coming down the pipe.

Fuch Erwin and his brownshirt buddies. It is pointless trying to intellectually engage them. It is like sticking your erect phallus out an open window and trying to hump the world.

Can't get no... satisfaction.

We are at that place in this contest, where there is only one language they will understand. Power. Lots of it.

We need to muster all of it we can, carefully aim it, and impress them like a slap to the back of the head... face down into their bowl of oatmeal.

The polite debate part of this contest, like the playing by the rules phase, is history.

My elderly parents want to know if they can pay me the $50 strike pay per day I would normally get from the BCTF, while on strike. However, they're not sure if they'll go to jail if they do so.

Should they contact the courts? Is it OK to give a BCTF teacher the $50 per day?

They just don't feel up to facing jail, at their ages. What if they gave two payments of $25? Would that be legal?

Frank, correct me as i'm only taking a wild guess here, but i have a sneaking suspicion that Justice Brown has just a little bit deeper understanding of law than you.

Freezing the assets of organizations that are using said assets to support illegal activities is a common occurrence.

How does it feel to be starved into submission Louise? The judge is denying teachers, including those with kids, from being able to buy food once their personal savings run out.

Indeed.

Good to read you again as well, Frank. :-)

I'm sure she does birdstomach. I'm not a lawyer.

Having said that we are not talking about a crime like running drugs. We are talking about a law passed by a gov't against those it sees as its political opponents because that group of people refuses to work without being able to negotiate the rules of their workplace. Not the same thing. I am saying the judge has lost her perspective.

One can always tell when a post hits nerve when there is a fast comment panning the comment. Whoa! the sarcasm just drips.
Why do some folks think union dues are different from business paying dues to business councils,lobby firms, and political fundraising?

Frank, the only time child care centres are geared to really stimulate (or as you put it) entertain children is during the summer - The centres plan for their summer programs which includes a ciriculum and field trips months ahead. They can not plan for this on the fly therefore many daycare centre leave it up to the kids to stimulate themselves - plop in a DVD or boot up the Xboxes. As for our provider she isn't licensed to take the additional load or she'll have to shut down her pre-school program. You may not get this conundrum, but most parents do. Regardless, my child's expectations was to be in school, she has many reasons for this and is asking us all the time when she'll get back.

As for the dictatorship - The reson why the Lib's can impose contracts is because they can. If the majority of the public disagreed with this then the money that the BCTF used to oust them would have been well spent.

The government or any other employer has that right - just as much as the teachers have the right, if they are so compelled, to seek other career opportunities.

As for quitting en mass - keep in mind that it took only a few months for the air traffic system to get back to normal after Regan put his foot down. It would be a different story over here if there was a job security issue.

JIm,

Yout mention that the BCTF is breaking the law.

The following quotation was posted by "notoatmeal" on a different thread, but on the same topic:

"The ILO, a United Nations agency mandated to uphold international labour standards, ruled that six B.C. Liberal laws violate fundamental rights that are respected in democracies worldwide. The three that pertain to public education are:

* Bill 18, which declared education an essential service. The ILO recommended this bill be repealed. It says that essential service designation should only be used where life, safety or health of the population is at risk, as in hospital, police or fire services.

* Bill 27, which imposed the teachers’ contract including a raise of 2.5% over each of three years. The Liberals then refused to fund the deal they imposed, prompting $210 million in cuts, 2,000 teacher layoffs and 44 school closures. The ILO says the government should adopt a flexible approach and refrain from imposing contracts.

* Bill 28, which removed provisions limiting class sizes, guaranteeing support for students with special needs, and setting standards of service from specialist teachers. The ILO recommended this bill be amended to allow teachers to negotiate issues that have been imposed unilaterally by the legislation."

The point is that Bill 18 was brought in as a strike-breaking measure. Unions are not allowed to strike if they provide an essential service. What is an essential service? The provincial law-makers decide, those law-makers being of course the BC Liberals.

So any analogy made between the BCTF strike and an individual committing a crime, say vandalism or robbery, say, is disingenuous.

The judge did not tell me that I couldn't walk up to a teacher on the line and give them 5$ per week out of my pension. And even if she did, in this instance I don't care. I'm perfectly willing to go to jail for doing that. I've been there in my younger years. So lets see. 5$ per day times about 380,000 unionists equals, what's this $1,900,000.00 devided by 42,000 equals $45.24 per day for every teacher whether they are on the line or not. And I'm willing to bet there are a lot more than just unionist that will do that in this situation.

Te' bring it on, I can hardly wait for a general strike. It will be the last nail in the coffin of Public Sector Unions. I breathlessly await your acidic respnse.
Lets see who has the real power.

Well it looks like you got away with the strike. Congrats. We are now free to break any law without consequence as long we disagree with the law.

And yes verso I have broken some minor laws but i don't flaunt the fact that I have like the teachers are. Maybe next time i speed I should hold a press conferance and promote a general strike about the gross injustice of speeding tickets.

If I broke laws then openly flaunted and condoned the breaking of laws then no i couldn't preach in good faith to my kids what is right or wrong.

Or you could just use what my dad told me, "do as I say not as i do" which many teachers will be doing in the future weeks.

Anyways looks like you guys won. Congrats, now the BCTF can live to keep fighting their political jihads whenever they see fit.

No one feed the trolls, *please*! If you do, they'll always come back for more.

It was morally justified to peacefully resist unjust laws , Americans involved in the struggle against slavery and the fight for trade union rights and women's suffrage. The law is not made by judges and elite politicians. Laws originate from the ground up , when the public wakes up and has courage
the laws have to change . Their evolving, you will always have right wing law and order goons calling you a criminal but if left up to them we would still own slaves and women women would have no rights.

Tell us Jimmy, how did women's rights come to be, how did blacks and other minority groups win rights. How did we get an 8 hr day, vac benefits, weekends. Did we get these rights by doing as we were told.

P.S No fines and no jail time for the BCTF, the strike fund is frozen for 30 days and that's it. So the court knows it has a weak law and a weak hand, they know the consequences of playing
hard ball. We will see how long Gordo can hang on with no schools.

"So verso you tell you kids that anarchy is fine and that they can selectively choose what laws they follow."

I would tell my kids not to be bullied by criminals and hypocrites who break legal contracts and get busted
for DWI and then try to claim a higher moral ground. LOL

Thanks for the clarification, Martin.

I only wish the judge could rule that Sims and Campbell sit down at the table UNTIL they have made a plan for the future of BC education and BC educators.

Louise, I think you and your folks are on safe ground. I think the only kinds of payments the judge cares about are organized ones from other unions.

It is disappointing to see that the rhetoric, once again, has no basis in reality. (The BCTF is tied to the NDP, is grumpy about losing the election, wants to control everything, blah blah blah....)

I once believed some of these things.

Back in the 80's, I ran my own small business, and my rhetoric regarding teachers, public sector workers, and unions in general sounded much like the stuff we hear from sdgreen, rtbwa, poindexter, Jim et al.

Then I sold the business, travelled around the world, and went to UVic, where I got my first degree. And I read as much as I could.

The more I learned about how this crazy world works, the less sure I was that my initial right-wing beliefs were well-founded, and I gradually crept closer to the center.

I left the private sector 12 years ago to become a high school teacher, and despite the obvious frustration that derives from the fact that I have to sell my services to a government owned monopoloy, I love the teaching business.

But there are problems in this business that need to be addressed, and these problems have been publicized by the BCTF, the Tyee, and, to a lesser extent, the mainstream media.

When I ran my own business, I had the power to solve problems as they arose. When I worked in the oil patch, my employers always responded effectively to any concerns and problems that we raised.

Now that I'm a teacher, I find it frustrating that my employer (the government, really) cares so little for the services we provide that it refuses to discuss these problems in a meaningful way. My students don't have textbooks, desks and chairs, but the boss doesn't give a damn.

There are only two groups of people who actually seem to care about these issues: teachers and informed parents.

Sadly, the latter have no political power.

This leaves the teachers all alone in their struggle to solve the problems they deal with every day.

So to sdgreen, Jim, and the others, please spare us the uninformed and overblown rhetoric, and find out what's really going on.

If you are too distrustful of the union message, that's fine. You can ask real teachers what they are experiencing. You must know some of them.

If you actually bother to find out the real story, you will have a difficult time maintaining the perspectives that you express regularly in these pages.

So get busy, all of you.

I'm well aware of how daycares run rtbwa. But it doesn't change the fact that teachers giving up their pay when they refuse to work are not responsible for other people's kids.

I missed the Canucks last year but I didn't demand the government fine them till they were forced to play. Nor did I call for a lawsuit against them.

Dictatorships have the ability also to impose their will. That doesn't make it right. If the Campbell gov't acts like one its fair to call them on it.

Do you think the teachers should resign en masse? Reagan hired the same air traffic controllers back under his own terms, is that what you wish Campbell to do after firing them all? The laws in Canada are different than the in the US but past history demonstrates that Campbell will break whatever laws he likes when they're in his way and simply pass new ones that conform to his own ideology.

The teachers are being forced into a corner where its quit or do what Campbell tells them. There are no other options.

Thank-you Davey-Boy well put.

Nope, it's not just union shops out here where private citizens and general contractors are getting behind the teachers. Looks like they're just as tired as the rest of us of the T-Rex approach to government.

JIm,

It’s clear that the current government has rewritten the law to achieve a political goal. If the sole purpose of a piece of legislation is to force teachers back to work without having to bargain with them, then it’s worth thinking long and hard about whether this is really a just law.

You've made an excellent point, Stuart.

Its time other workers join in this fight and show their collective contempt for laws such as these and a Govt. such as this.Donate time Donate money.

Got a kick out of your piece, Gary. Aye, and I've been there and done that too. :-)

Jail?

Ain't fun, for sure. Ain't clawing at the door to get in. But there are worse places to be.

Like living under the boot heel of ruling class fascism.

And as for The Law, Hell, it ain't something written in stone brought down from the mountain. Just paper and rules created by RICH MEN, and maybe one or two RICH WOMEN, by and large-, with only exceptions enough what prove the rule.

But when The Law turns on you like a dog-, as a weapon in the hands of the ruling class and its State, screw The Law. And the bitch what in this case was the willing instrument using it to destroy democracy for the working class. Mostly working class sisters at that.

Yeah Te, that's why the T-Rex gov't won a majority. Again. Hmm.

Davey-boy, I hear you, but the whole approach of the BCTF is what I find distasteful. Comparing it to some civil rights battle and fight against dictators is just plain dumb. I mean come on. For that reason alone I will not back the BCTF.

I can see where the teachers are coming from and agree for the most part (except for that 15%), but the BCTF is not the way to make conditions better in schools. They should be lobbying gov't and expecting it to take time, not shutting schools down and holding their breath and stomping their feet till they get their way. I can't support that.

You can donate time here on Friday!!!

[B][U]STUDENT PARENT RALLY IN SUPPORT FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION AND THE TEACHERS:12:30 ON FRIDAY OCTOBER 14 AT LORD BYNG SECONDARY!!
16TH AND CROWN.

Davey Boy: You don't have to sell your services to any employer, you willfully chose so. There are a variety of educational institutions that aren't government run and even the ones that are don't force you to do anything.

I didn't see teachers complaining when the NDP legislated contracts on them and took away their bargaining rights with the "legislative hammer". Its only now that Teachers don't like the terms of the legislation that they are up in arms. It appears the principle of collective bargaining is only important to teachers when they don't approve of the outcome.

The provincial government has the exclusive right, and democratic mandate to determine education policy and the BCTF has no place in the equation. Teachers had their say at the polling stations in May and so did the rest of British Columbians. I didn't witness any opponents of the NDP in the 90's foaming at the mouth calling their government a dictatorship, and comparing NDP premiers to Hitler.

Cheer up BCTF rank and file! You have close to four full years to save up and try to convince voters to let you gorge on our tax dollars once again!

The law ruled that the BCTF cannot get strike pay and that "their " strike fund in frozen

Now is the time for others to step in and help out.

Good point "I only wish the judge could rule that Sims and Campbell sit down at the table UNTIL they have made a plan for the future of BC education and BC educators."

Good posts, makes to much sense, I guess the judge is a very linear thinker.

and jimmy_laroux, email these broken laws to the Judge, maybe wake her up.

Of course you're ignoring the fact that the NDP did talk to the teachers. negotiations did happen and the teachers were happy, for the most part, with the result. Don't get your facts from Bill Good.

"The provincial government has the exclusive right, and democratic mandate to determine education policy and the BCTF has no place in the equation"

Teachers should have no say in the running of the education system? Really? Flight instructors and used car salesmen should determine how our kids are taught? Thanks for your input, I figured that's where you were coming from.

It's past the point where the BCTF has anything to do with it. Union and Non-union alike are getting together to shut this province down.

To Ron Erwin: I want to personally thank you for your contributions to this website. Your musings reflect everything that is deceitful and wrong in our socity. And you to be exposed for what you realy are enhances my belief that the goodwill of all will always over come the tyranny of the few.

Frank: I'm sorry to dissappoint you but yes, only democratically elected officials such as those comprising the provincial government or school boards should determine education policy; not the teachers union. If teachers want to determine any sort of public policy, they should field candidates for public office.

Frank, the BCTF painted themselves in that corner all by themselves (just as you have by mentioning the NHL labour dispute : Remember what the players demanded and then eventually got in the end?)

The government and the courts responded in kind to the BCTF's actions. Governments that was dually elected by all elligable voters in this province. We all knew what we got when the Libs were elected to a majority the second time around, therefore what's the point in re-fighting the election?

Look, how about the government gives into all the BCTF demands, tax the hell out of us - Can the BCTF put in stone that they won't arbitrarilly decide to walk off the job ever again and have us and our kids as collateral damage as a result. Probably not! Hence why I can't take issue with how the government is dealing with this.

I realize that the BCTF seems to think they run the province, but as another poster (Dave) mentioned on another thread on the Tyee. "They are a minor influence but a major impediment".

Lastly, I've never said or implied that teachers are responsible for our kids, overall. However, they are responsible (and paid) to educate our kids for several months of the year during a certain time. An expectation that parents, after-school care centres, employers, etc has -To try to dirty parents hands and asserting that parents expect teachers to take care of our kids is overly simplistic and is convenient (On the one hand teachers are benign then they switch gears and downplay their influence whenever it's suits them) whenever parents like myself think that this protest is an over- reation. Face it - this whole issue disruptive to all, especially when we didn't ask for it.

"And yes verso I have broken some minor laws but i don't flaunt the fact that I have like the teachers are. Maybe next time i speed I should hold a press conference and promote a general strike about the gross injustice of speeding tickets."

So the measure we use is how much the law breaking is being flaunted? By your logic, it's okay to break the law when no one is looking? What kind of an example is that for the kids, Jim? How do you sleep at night?

I wonder whether school trustee's amongst the the 30 or so districts that support their teachers and support their disdain for Bill 12 will be dragged up on contempt charges if they should continue.

Nowhere did I ever sign on to cooperate with this government.

birdstomach,

You state: "The provincial government has the exclusive right, and democratic mandate to determine education policy and the BCTF has no place in the equation.”

Since when should the BCTF have no say in whether or not their wages should exceed inflation over the next three years? And the BCTF is precisely the group best able to make recommendations about policy. The BCTF is composed of teachers who, of course, actually carry out that policy in the end.

You also state: “Teachers had their say at the polling stations in May and so did the rest of British Columbians.”

What on earth does this have to do with the discussion? The BCTF should expect to deal fairly with whatever party happens to be in power.

And finally: “I didn't witness any opponents of the NDP in the 90's foaming at the mouth calling their government a dictatorship, and comparing NDP premiers to Hitler.”

I have no doubt similar unflattering comments were made about the NDP when they were in power. Were you living in BC during the nineties?

Next time I get a speeding ticket verso ill make sure ill hold a news conference.

rtbwa, my point in bringing up the NHL lockout was that it was settled without the government passing a law ordering the Canucks to play. It was settled by the player's union and the NHL arguing for a year. No judge ordered the player's union not to pay the players.

As for the BCTF, how did they paint themselves into that corner? You're ignoring the facts. The gov't did not negotiate either before or after the calling of the strike. After imposing a contract a few years ago they have not negotiated since. So the BCTF did not paint themselves into a corner. They are in the same corner they have always been in because they are up against a dictatorial gov't that refuses to negotiate.

"Face it - this whole issue disruptive to all, especially when we didn't ask for it."

A gov't that I assume you voted for. As you just said in your post you knew what you were electing. You knew when you went into the voting booth that the gov't had not negotiated with the teachers and that a huge problem was looming. So in fact you did ask for it.

The BCTF should have a say about learning conditions, but they should not hold the exclusive right to “learning conditions” like they’re campaigning for. A union is there to look after the best interests of their members. The government is there to look after the best interests of the citizens. Parents are there to look after the best interests of their kids. Principals are looking after the best interests of the school. School trustees are looking after the best interests of the district. Why shouldn’t they all have a say? Why should the BCTF be the only ones who have a say?

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b8mo.jpg

Birdstomach, you need to think it through.

Would you have businesses disqualified from lobbying government on tax policy? Should contractors and real estate agents be excluded from any discussion of zoning bylaws or changes in the building code? Should broadcasters have input into CRTC policy?

Of course they should. While it is true that elected officials have, and should retain, considerable power in these areas, it is also true that our laws, regulations, and taxes should reflect the interests of the people most affected (and the most knowledgable).

And who is going to look after the kids' interest here? The BCTF has to. No one else is in any real position to do so.

Thanks to everyone who responded to the story, pro and con. Even if I didn't persuade the anti-BCTF folks, I hope they realize that this strike didn't come out of nowhere, inspired only by the innate wickedness of perverse pedagogues.

The court's decision seems to me the wittiest judgment I can recall. It reproves the government for trying to set up a no-win situation for the teachers, where the employer was legally forbidden to bargain the only things the teachers wanted to bargain.

And it tells the teachers to put their money where their mouth is. If they're willing to lose a few weeks' pay (and risk the growing anger of parents), they could make the Liberals cave. But they can't spend other people's money to do it.

Or they could go back to work and plan on seriously campaigning against the Liberals in three and a half years. If revenge is a dish best eaten cold, the teachers could feast in May 2009.

Whatever happens, let's drop the shrieks of "anarchy." If this is anarchy, then Gandhi, Rosa Parks, and Martin Luther King Jr. were anarchists, and we should aspire to be anarchists too.

birdstomach,

You state: “If teachers want to determine any sort of public policy, they should field candidates for public office."

The above statement shows marked contempt for democracy. Democracy is about citizen participation in political decision making, last time I checked, and does not consist of simply choosing your dictators once every four years. Nor is it contingent upon having sufficient resources to fund a political campaign.

You also state: "...only democratically elected officials such as those comprising the provincial government or school boards should determine education policy; not the teachers union.”

And who should determine fire safety standards for buildings? Surely not a bunch of engineers. Nor should doctors give input concerning the Medical Services Plan. Best to leave that to the Minister of Health alone.

Frank, it seems we have a stalemate - You think the government is the bad guy in all this, regardless of the fact that they didn't decide to have the teachers walk off the job illegally. I think the BCTF has done some boneheaded things to try to force the government's and therefore the parents hand because they didn't get what they ask for when they wanted to.

I never had a problem with what the BCTF is asking for - however, the way that they conduct themselves with absolute dis-regard to who they are really impacting with their protest is why I am commenting.

Talk to you later.

JIm, that offer is not on the table. As Paul Willcocks pointed out it was just grandstanding for the media, it wasn't even mentioned to the BCTF only hours earlier during a meeting.

Right now, the teachers have no say and after 4.5 years nothing has been offered to change that.

"The government is there to look after the best interests of the citizens."

Funniest comment posted today , what civics book are you reading..
and what citizens are you refereeing to. LOL, what province do you live in.

Lets play , who was right.

Education minister Christy Clark announced the freeze stating: "Education is going to be better in three years" because spending will be "prioritized" and "targeted".

Those who actually know something about education, teachers and school trustees, are saying just the opposite. The BC Teachers Federation and the BC School Trustees Association stated the freeze will mean significant cuts to programs and services in schools.

School districts have already trimmed services to the bone so the impact of the freeze will be cuts to core educational programs.

Who based on your evidence is right , the BCTF or Christy Clark ...AKA Cannon Fodder to Sam Sullivan

rtbwa, stalemates happen here all the time. I've been arguing with JIm for 2 years and nothing's changed.

But I do take exception to a couple of your points.

"regardless of the fact that they didn't decide to have the teachers walk off the job illegally"

Actually they did decide just that. They forced them into a corner by not negotiating and said take it or walk.

" I think the BCTF has done some boneheaded things"

like what?

"however, the way that they conduct themselves"

I think the teachers have been remarkably patient with the Liberals. They have actually sat down to negotiate with the gov't a number of times only to find that the gov't won't negotiate. Those who voted Liberal knew this was the case and voted for them anyway so I see them being forced to stay at home with their kids as a self-inflicted wound.

Crawford - too right! EXCEPT they are not spending other peoples money, they are spending their own money, collected from teachers fees on a monthly basis.

Mr Killian, but the teachers strike fund is in fact their own money.

CONTENTS

1.> FOUR WAYS TO SUPPORT THE TEACHERS RIGHT NOW

2.> PROVINCIAL RALLIES FOR TEACHERS DRAW THOUSANDS OF SUPPORTERS

3.> ONLINE POLLS - VOTE FOR TEACHERS

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1.> FOUR WAYS TO SUPPORT THE TEACHERS RIGHT NOW
No matter how long the teachers' dispute lasts, your support on
the picket line, in the media and in your community will be
critical. We also know that many people want to help, and have
come to us asking what they can do. Here's how you can help today:

1. Phone your MLA this week while they are in the constituency.
Tell him or her that you support the teachers' right to protest
an unjust law. Tell him or her that if Gordon Campbell wants to
get teachers back in the classroom he should come to the table
and negotiate with them. You can look up the phone and fax
number for your MLA at:
< http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm >

2. Send the same message directly to Gordon Campbell. You can
call his constituency office at
604-660-3202 or send an email:
< mailto:gordon.campbell.mla@leg.bc.ca >

3. While you are at it, phone Mike de Jong, the Minister of
Labour, and tell him that you support the teachers.
Call him at his constituency office: 604-870-5486
or send an email:
< mailto:mike.dejong.mla@leg.bc.ca >

4. Don't stop there. Let Shirley Bond, the Minister of
Education, know that you stand behind the teachers. Her
number is 250-612-4181, or you can send her an email:
< mailto:shirley.bond.mla@leg.bc.ca >

---------------------------------------------------------------
2.> PROVINCE-WIDE RALLIES FOR TEACHERS DRAW THOUSANDS OF
SUPPORTERS
Members of nearly all affiliated unions turned out by the thousands
last night and today at rallies held around the province in support
of teachers.

Support also came from members of the community outside the labour
movement, including seniors, students, parents and other community
groups.

"The BC Liberals are trying desperately to turn public support for
the teachers ," said B.C. Federation of Labour President Jim Sinclair.
"They're already claiming that Solidarity is beginning to weaken --
Nothing could be further from the truth."

The BC Teachers' Federation is planning a major Rally and March on
Monday in Victoria between 11:00 AM and 2:45 PM.

For more details and to download a poster:

<
http://www.bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/Ral
lyFlyer.pdf >

+++|+++

3.> ONLINE POLLS - VOTE FOR TEACHERS

Do you support extending the teachers' collective agreement?
< http://www.royalcityrecord.com/ >

Are you pleased the government legislated a contract on B.C.
teachers?
< http://www.richmond-news.com/ >

Do you support B.C. teachers in their requests for smaller class
sizes and a pay raise in their dispute with the provincial
government?
< http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/ >

Do you support teachers in their fight for pay increases and
smaller class sizes?
< http://www.langleytimes.com/ >

Do you approve of the provincial government's move to introduce
legislation to extend the teachers' contract?
< http://www.pgfreepress.com/ >

Would you support the teachers' strike if it continues past two
weeks?
< http://www.surreyleader.com/ >

There is so little evidence that the provincial government wants to solve this dispute, I wonder if the rumoured Bill 13 (above) IS the governments plan.

This just doesn't seem to be about education, any more.

teachers=BCTF=BC's excellent education system, currently mothballed.

Check it out, teachers are getting over 90% support in all polls, their even getting support on the CKNW poll.

Thanks for the link, Te Aro Arahina. I'm in the mood for a little black humour today.

The teachers aren't going to take this. I was in front of the school I attended myself today, where I later went on to teach at....this government and its bitch court system (thanks Coyote) is not going to get away with this.

Apparently, besides the loss of strike pay, the union cannot advertise in support of the strike or use its offices to organize from.

So as Frank says above:

Frank you always mention how much the teachers are negotiating and how they are negotiating in good faith. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the negotiations. I’m wondering what have they negotiated? What were the major issues that the BCTF is willing to give up to achieve victories in the areas most important to them? Are they willing to give up wage increases, since many states they don’t teach for the money. In order to receive better learning conditions, in which they all say that’s the real reason they are striking. If they’re not willing to give in any areas that is not negotiation. Its called making demands.

Which leads to the major problem. The bargaining structure. This strike does nothing to address that. Without a change to that there will never be a proper solution for both sides. You cannot possibly deem this NDP instituted bargaining structure as the proper way to reach negotiated settlements. That is the first thing that needs to be changed before anything gets done.

Re: are teachers setting a good example?
I will stand by what I tell my students if they object to classroom rules:

“I am open to discuss the conditions of how we learn in this classroom, but ultimately I am accountable for your learning. If there is a rule that you can’t abide by you have the right to object and not follow it, BUT you must accept the consequences.”

They quickly learn the frivolity of such complaints as assignments being too hard or pop quizzes that aren’t fair. However, they do understand moral relativism – even 7 year olds understand when a game isn’t fair. So I have no problem with the teachers’ stance: we are standing up for our right to protest intransigent and vindictive legislation and are willing to accept the consequences. It’s an example of which I am proud.

Do you figure unions have large internet support right now due to the fact that they're an extra 40,000 teachers sitting at home when the majority of people are working?

Maybe.

Are they still allowed to talk to one another?

JIm, on the bargaining system. The Liberals weren't elected yesterday. This is the 2nd contract with the teachers they've handled. They've had time to fix it.

As for the teachers, they have their positions. They expect to come to the table and negotiate. Tha tmeans they get some of what they want, lose on other issues, compromise here and there. But the gov't won't negotiate on anything meaningful such as working conditions or pay.

It is the gov't that is simply making demands and expecting the law to force those demands on the teachers.

No Jim, I just think it is mainly people with the ability to read and frame an answer who are responding

Can anyone tell me how much the provincial budget really is? It would be interesting to see just how little is being spent on education (and teachers' salaries) compared to the size of the BC pie.

How much the Liberals have reduced revenues by tax cuts to high income earners?

How much in dollars of revenue lost with the recent lowering of the corporate tax rate?

How much the RAV line is over budget and ultimately might cost the taxpayers of BC?

How much of the public purse is committed to the 2010 Olympics?

How much revenue will be lost by the sale of BC Rail?

I would like to get a sense of the priorities of this government where it really counts--where the money is going. Time for some perspective...

Jim is back. He has done his, " I will learn not to be a doofus lines." and is still a doofus. Some brownshirts just never learn.

Yes, elementary dear Watson, unions look after their members. Like Chambers of Commerce and Business Men's Councils loot after theirs.

And, doofus, pay attention to class here, teachers typically come out of, work in and depend on, in "public school" systems... working class communities, though they may tend to call themselves "middle class". It's a small foible to which many fall prey.

(The ruling class wants us to think that outside of themselves... I mean there has to be "betters", right? ...the rest of us, outside of the poor... Can you say, "Downtown East Side? Who are beneath consideration, so are best considered outside the pale. ...are all part of one big, happy, healthy, onward and upward, on the right hand of the ruling class, middle class. I know, I know, genuflect, genuflect.

Tripe of course, but many a member of the working class still likes to think he/she is a part of the amorphous "middle class"-, up there like doctors, lawyers and other "self-governing professionals" such as MBAs and lower ranked managerials et al, the true "middle class".

On which rung most teachers scarecely have a toehold.

Many folks tend to "think themselves" up a class from where they really are.

But, despite that wee shortcoming, most workers tend to know by instinct, reinforced by the fear of unemployment and the rapid "dropping" of a class if it goes on too long, that they can only prosper with their community. So, the reality is, like most of the rest of the working class, teachers tend to come with a strong sense of "community awareness". They pay the taxes which pays their wages. A strong motivator to be concerned about the well being and attitudes of your community.

The average teacher also tends to live in, near or about the community in which she teaches, like most other workers.

Continued next post...

Continued from previous...

The State however, overseen by "government" is largely populated by the true "middle class" professional strata, most typically lawyers, who tend because of their relative privileged status and income levels, and expertise highly valued by the ruling class, to live at least "close" to the ruling class. Many identify with the ruling class, and not a small number would dearly love to be part of the ruling class.

Additionally, their position as "public servants" within the state, was not untypically secured with the financial succour/largesse of the possessors of large capital pools.

Now, who think you Jim, that might be?

Wrong again, honey. The ruling class-, and the other wannaber class strata who identify with it, are lower down on the business class rung, and are looking for "favours", "access to power", "influence".

And the politicians of the State again, at the end of the day, depend for their success, (on votes for sure-, but once the "button, button, who's got the button game" has been played, and the working class has been fooled one more time) they really need the approval, sanction, cash and cooperation of the owners of industry, finance and marketing... the ruling class. At the end of the day, Lib, Con, Socred or NDP, whose interests all they are bound to bend low and toucn their foreheads to the ground and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect.

Enter Frank Sinatra singing, "I Did It Their Way."

You support your precious Ruling Class State, Jim. You're not too bright a brownshirt anyway.

I'll stick to my union of fellow workers.

We may be witnessing the re-birth of the labour movement. It had been geeting old and worn out, looking a bit haggard having lost it's teeth on a bit of Reganomics. Employers saw the chance reduce the minimum wage...it is now $6 an hr...so the largest employer in the province got ballsey, they decided that they could simply ignor the bargaining process....by simply saying no no no no no 37 times confident in the knowledge that no one would really care much when they passed their own agenda in the form of il-legislation. We would all roll over and say "even a bad law is the law".

I believe they may have gone to far. Now we see that rather than play by the accepted principles of fair play, the libs and their handmaidens have abandoned all pretense and gone for the "starve them in to submission" route.

A general strike could force an election in any other democracy, but here we have legislated 4yr elections only haven't we?

Banana's anyone?

While a general strike has some appeal it is just more of the brute force approach to solving the impasse. I think the posts about parents giving their school teacher children the equivalent of strike pay provides a more useful approach. How about somebody organizing an Adopt a Teacher registry that could put truly needy teachers in touch with those of us who can afford to part with some of our own money to help them over the next 30 days. Since they are getting zero pay and no strike benefits I am sure many of them, particularly the younger ones, truly are in need. As far as I know, as long as the program is not run by the BCTF this would not offend the judge's order. I am dumbfounded, and outraged, that a justice of the Supreme Court of BC concluded that starving the teachers out was the appropriate response to this impasse.

wstander et al, I'd go forit...starving student though I be. there are some things that you need to take a stand for, or extend a hand to.
If we were, as a people, able to fund the teachers strike pay, that would send a resounding message.
Where do I send my $5?

$100. Tell me where to send it.

What's this comment about "Do you figure unions have large internet support right now due to the fact that they're an extra 40,000 teachers sitting at home when the majority of people are working?"

I take personal offense to that comment. My wife is a teacher and she's TIRED when she comes home from the picket line. We have children to take care of as well, (and by the way...we too have to pay for "emergency child care" for our school aged kids), and she has no time to be sitting on the internet. Today is the first day anyone in this family has had a chance to check out what's going on out there and I can assure you, teachers are not at home sitting on their duffs "surfing the net" while this is going on. They have families and responsibilities...including figuring out how they're going to pay their rent/bills/mortgage..with half and income, or no income, if both mom and dad are teachers.
Teachers work long hours as it is. They have no time to be planted in front of the computer.

And that's not to belittle the generosity of sumtea. She's a starving student. On the real scale of value, her gift is doubtless greater than mine.

"From each according to his/her ability..." :-)

I thought I read somewhere that under the conditions of this court ruling,the BCTF were unable to use their funds to pay for advertizing in favour of the teachers. Free speech gone.
I wonder, if in fact I did read that, how many newspapers would run the ads for free?

Eh, Beers. How about Tyee starting a fund for teachers?

Despite the media's focus on digging up and interviewing teachers who cross the line, they forget to mention that MORE than 95% (about 98% it seems) are still there - and will be tomorrow after tody's ruling, though we may lose another couple who will be interviewed by everyone on Global tomorrow. When they come to interview the rest of us, we will be saying something like this:

Do you really think that the depth of our convictions and the importance of this battle will be undermined because my strike pay is getting held up?

Do you really think we went into this without thinking right through to the end, where we might NEVER go back to our classrooms again and end up in other jobs or provinces?

I hope to get back to my own classroom soon, but I will NEVER go under conditions which extinguish the learning and working conditions of teachers and our charges, as well as the right to free collective bargaining.

Somebody go tell Gordo that if he's trying to starve us back in, he's going to have to forbid the public from feeding us - cause they are. Maybe he should get them to stop honking too and turn the weather cold.

Coyote is right. This battle is about more than us, folks. I ain't quitting.

Looking at the bigger picture..

And for those out there who think this is an "educational issue", you're wrong. This is about Campbell wanting to destroy the unions. He's just decided to start with the BCTF. If any of you work for a union or have spouses or family members who do, you'd better get your support on line before his government comes a-knocking at your door.

I apologize for the bluntness but I don't have a lot of time to be on the computer either. Just feel the need to put in my two cents worth. Talk is cheap (two cents worth!) but action is priceless. I'm getting out there to show Campbell where its at and my advice is that everyone else do the same if we want anything to change.

Have a good night folks.

That's a day isn't it? Gulp!

HI

It's the wife posting now! The teacher with no time to go online. I sure do now that my husband filled me in on this blog! I don't have time for polls though. Polls don't change anything and it's a waste of my time. I prefer the action end of things too.

I agree with the previous statements. There has to be a way to show Campbell that cutting off strike pay won't stop us. The BCTF might not be able to get money for teachers but maybe another group can....go around the BCTF and therefore the ruling.

In our situation, we'll hold out fine for cash as hubby has a good job and can cover our bills if we budget hard. Not other teachers are as fortunate, especially, as he said, those where both spouses/parents teach. We need to pull together and help those individuals meet their needs.

What would be great to see is teachers helping other teachers and other unions coming together to support the teachers financially in each community. I wonder who could take the ball on that one?

As a teacher, I'm not giving up either. Not for anything. I'll picket until hell freezes over and considering where I live, we'll freeze over first! ((-:

Gotta run. Kids to feed.

Last time I checked the courts said the teachers were criminals, so the rulings have no legitimate place. Pure theatre, we need a good lawyer to challenge the ruling via free speech, the BCTF can funnel money threw private groups that pay the teachers or private individuals that run ads... The Judge can go F*** herself. Another bogus ruling has no credibility.
What is the news paper going to do if I run an ad( violate my rights by asking em where I got the money) I will bring my lawyer into the office with me as a witness.

"how many newspapers would run the ads for free?"

In this province? None. The Sun's Mihlar and Campbell would be too giddy at the thought of Gordon crushing the labour movement as Rod Love suggested he do.

rtbwa, you keep saying that the BCTF could have handled this situation in many different ways. Once again, I'll say that that's easy to say. I'm still waiting for you to list all these different effective ways.... Really, tell us, what else could they have done that would have addressed their issues and solve the impasse?

Frank, sadly I know you are right.
I can see the spin/headline now.
"Court charges no fines"
Which makes it sound like a good and benevolent thing happen here today.

We need OPPOSITION, not only in the legislature but on the news and on the picket lines.

If we can't advertise against this tyranny, maybe they can! They don't have to endorse the BCTF, they just have to promote solving the problem.

Get teachers and government back to the table.

Is there an opposition in this province? hello?

I didn't realize the discussion had moved threads. I put up a couple of posts just as the ruling was announced etc on the last thread.

As well there are a couple more interesting posts from some teachers and Robbins that are worth a look.

A slight reprise:

posted: 1 Hour Ago
redrivergirl, I do understand the emotion of your arguement or position and agree with you in principle. However most folks close to this dispute honestly felt that the Courts might buckle to the employers and governments wishes to fine this organization out of existance.

Madam Justice Brown was forced to make a ruling that would have consequence to the teachers in view of the fact that the Sunday ruling already had found the BCTF in contempt.

I guess we can debate whether fines of $500,000 a day and jailing of their leadership and possibly activist members would have been preferable. But what good is it for the BCTF to turn over their members money to the courts.
That was the expected ruling.

I seems to me that the what the judge was saying is that this is a political dispute and that she does not agree that the courts are the place to resolve this made in government mess. Bearing in mind the court did have to make some ruling against the organiztion.

I bet Minister's DeJong and Bond are staggered right now.

What I hope is that the community can now come together in material soldarity with our teachers as individuals if the government fails to get the message from the courts.

posted: 51 Minutes Ago
jjist, I hear you loud and clear. The tensions that built up today waiting for the ruling were immense. But every where I went today citizens and union officials anger at the government was at the boiling point.

This ruling today, in some ways was designed to get exactly the opinion that you present.

If I may be so bold, let me tell you something about labour relations and and the exploiters and the exploited. Whenever it starts to get so dark, when your knee's are at the point of starting to tremble. That is exactly how the other side is feeling too. They know that you are on the moral high ground. Do not discount that leverage.

And you know what else? That is when the employer picks up the telephone and swallows deeply.

This dispute is certainly not for the faint of heart. What has to happen is that your lines must remain strong tomorrow and if necessary strong on Monday. That is why all of our teachers took the vote. That vote or any strike vote should never be taken as a ploy or a bluff.

Remember the old song by Gerry and the Pacemakers in the early sixties and Liverpool Football Clubs fight song today. "You'll never walk alone." Ah maybe your to young.

Hold your heads up high and don't be afraid of the dark.

We'll see you on the lines.

Hey jim you are wrong

And Frank when the NDP was in power the did institute laws like that. For example you couldn’t work on government contracts without being unionized. Did we general strike over that? No, we acted like adults.

They wanted people to have TQs to work on government jobs because of the leaky condos and all the sub standard work being done something you neo cons seem to like. Personally if you don't have a Trade Qualification you won't work on my house either.

Try working at Syncrude or Suncor without a Trades Qualification it is manadatory to show your qualifications before you start work, along with your C.S.T.S. and all other applicable tickets like confined space fall arrest etc. Why is it ok for the corporations to demand TQs but when a government wants people to actaully be qualified to do what they are hired to do it is evil. Stick your head back in the sand you fool!

Re: The BCTF as sacrificial avian.....

An interesting thesis.

However, was that not already the role of the HEU?

And, if so, would that not make the BCTF an uppity monkey?

Regardless, in the case of Mr. Bennett's govt one could make at least a partial case that austerity measures were required from an economic point of view. Clearly, that argument is not a legitimate one now.

Which leaves, what?

Norquist North?

This guy knows what he is talking about. And pretty damned eloquently too. :-)

Na, the second killing is just more sickness showing; they like the feeling.

As I indicated in another blog, anytime you make a legal application and do not get your Order, or any part of your Order this is a loss. The legal application followed political action so the political action is a loss. The BC Liberals lost (just not completely).

If I were Ms. Simms I would simply tell the press that I cannot comment beyond saying that I have asked to negotiate throughout all of this, the government chooses not to, and the court has made an Order (sor of a cease and desist). For all intents and purposes the court has neutralized their organization. This is fine. The press cannot 'press' the BCTF if the BCTF is neutralized. So don't talk!!

Imagine, the news media would have to spend all of their time talking to Campbell, De Jong and Bond. Obviously Ms. Simms and the executive would want the teachers to be the spokespeople at this point. Parents could get up to date information directly from the teachers, and maybe have a chat with Mr. Wong the math teacher or the English teacher etc.

If the BCTF can let go control (they have been ordered to), than let the parents integrate with teachers. If teachers can convey to parents that they are willing to go unpaid (and to give up strike pay) because they believe so much in their children's education, while I can't think of a better public relations scenario. When the media shows up from time to time, maybe the teachers and parents could be seen chatting or making a health milkshake or something.

ROBBINS researchers have attended to 11 schools throughout the lower mainland (after the ruling), and the teachers seem more buoyed by the ruling. The attention is down to them, and the teachers, not the media have to account to the parents.

Mr. De Jong is 'reaching out' to teachers basically persuading them to cross the picket line. This is a desperate position to be sure.
Mr. De Jong has said that he won't negotiate until the teacher's go back to work. To be sure the teacher's won't go back to satisfy any of these government representatives. I am certain they would rather poke their eye out with a sharp stick than to capitulate to Campbell.

I watched Deb Hope on global interviewing Gordon Campbell. He didn't look happy, and she even as a journalist gave him just a slight pucker of displeasure at his answers. It reminded me a little of the glance heard round the world that his wife gave him after his Hawaii trouble.

The mothers of kids in school are going to eat this government alive.

The school boards have already saved enough in this short time (120 million by the end of next week)to pay for class adjustments and some wage concessions. The teachers may not be getting paid, but they would receive the money they have lost in tax returns (at least over the first month). The only problem would be those teachers that don't have enough savings, but if you can't get a loan or can't use your charge card for a month on principal you dont' really have those principals.

Gordon Campbell is away in discussions about native land claims with a view to meetings in Kelowna at the end of the month. This is interesting, with the public perception that aboriginal land claims are only satisfying a few in each native band/tribe, and with millions upon millions flying around, BC parents (and others) are not going to like the idea that the government is offering our kids zero.

Only in BC politics can the spin be this bad--

Just a comment to the posters that see this as a fight because a union is not in control of something. These comments just show how ignorant these people are of how labour relations work in the real world. The unions have no control on what is presented them at a particular negotiations. They can only react to whatever is presented them. The items on a union agenda are usually there in an effort to correct a problem the members have had with a particular employer. The only reason we have unions is because of abusive companies and governments. Unions did not come out of nowhere, they came about because of a need. A need to stop child labour, to stop the twelve and sixteen hour day, to stop the arbitrary firing of people because the "BOSS" did not like him or her, etc, etc, etc.

Letter to the Premier

Dear Gordo;

After today’s court ruling which states, among other things, that teachers can’t use their offices to plan or organize further job action, I need your opinion on a few matters.

My wife and I are both teachers. Many of our friends are too. When we get together, we often discuss matters which might be deemed “political”. We are wondering if you’ll mind our plans to hold a potluck supper right here in our home for teachers tomorrow night. I must confess, the talk is quite likely to involve planning for Monday's actions.

Also, Gordo, my wife and I have learned to read fairly well over the years. We have gone so far as to read between the lines of the court ruling and understand that teachers fraternizing with other teachers will be frowned upon. So we’re writing to inquire if you mind if we continue to have sex? I must warn you here, that it is our habit in this regard to pay each other $50 at the end.

We look forward to your reply. Don’t phone the office though. I have a different number now. Just send a note through CanWest.

Thanks.

The South African Teachers Federation has offered the B.C.T.F all of its money to help the B.C Teachers overcome the oppression of this government.
As a former South African I was moved to tears.
Nkosi sikele Africa.
Nkosi sikele B.C.

I agree with the suggestion that The Tyee look at ways to help facilitate an Adopt a Teacher Program.

In the meantime if this dispute is still ongoing on Monday, I will be delivering a basket of sanwiches (and apples) with a little envelope on the bottom to my kids school.

Sincere thanks to Crawford Kilian for presenting that valuable historic perspective. Let me add an additional perspective.

There appears to be some strong sentiment still in this province that a general strike is called for. I wasn’t in BC in 1983 and I’ve never seen a general strike so I don’t know. Where would such an action take us? Is the presumption that the government would capitulate and call a general election? What would politicians like those now in power offer instead to bring a general strike to an end? What would the masses demand? The Premier’s head on a stick?

A general strike would require leadership of the first order, and certainly I cannot think of anyone who fits the bill (which seems to have been the case in 1983). So we are left with an interesting predicament.

In recent correspondence that I sent to both the Minister of Labour and the Opposition regarding my own protracted battle with the labour relations regime I presented a compelling indictment that reveals what is really wrong with that regime: incontrovertible and material evidence of a conspiracy to deny the citizens of this province due process under the law. A conspiracy that dates back to 1992 and for which therefore both the current and the previous governments must answer. I am still waiting for a response. If neither party agrees to table the matter in the legislature then the MLA’s and the public will learn about it when I post the entire indictment online.

I do not foresee a resolution to this current labour conflict that will acknowledge, let alone address, the fundamental problems with our labour and employment regimes. I do believe once one comprehends what those fundamental issues are, viable solutions immediately present themselves.

How could a conflict that remained unresolved in 1983 possibly be amenable to resolution by resuming the same confrontational approach more than twenty years later? If we do not learn anything from our mistakes we will be condemned to repeat them ad infinitum.

We gamed out the following scenario. The teachers won't go back to work for the next 30 days. Campbell's divide and conquer table won't take place.

If the BC Federation of Labour goes out on a general rotating strike next week, and this is very successful strike, a couple of things happen. First, Carole James leader of the NDP will be hard pressed to get a divorce from labour in November in 2005.

Secondly, Madame Justice Brown would be reluctant to throw Ms. Simms and her executive in jail with her Order of day 31.

Instead, M'Lady would be in the position to impose fines $15,000 only per diem (because Jinny Simms and her executive haven't done anything for a month), impose a 90 day cooling off period, wherein mediator Vince Reddy would be ordered to binding arbitration on things like special needs, etc., and not wages.

The Campbell government I think has annoyed the courts. Remember the crown prosecutors? There was binding arbitration there, and the Campbell government ignored it. This won't happen again if Madame Brown has anything to say about it.

At the end of this labour will be unified, Campbell will be heading into the pre-recall period, and the teacher's will get one-half of their demands.

Campbell's leadership would come into serious question, because a Supreme Court Justice will have had to step in and run the government for him.

I heard the BCTF is looking around for donkeys and pigeons.

Just a question for anyone out there who may know. Is the money that they have "frozen" from teachers not our own money? Have we not given some money each paycheck to the BCTF so that they could give it back to us in these situations? How can this move be legal? When was the last time they froze the assets of the Hells Angles?

And another question. What other forums can teachers and their supports use to communicate?

Madame Justice Brenda Brown

I applaud you that you did not cave to the government and employers' unjust request to fine the union, but I am appalled at your decision to rape our citizens and the children of a means to feed, house and care for themselves

Madame Brown, you also forbid other unions AND third parties from helping the teachers.

Brown said the federation could still fund day-to-day business operations and its legal expenses but appointed a monitor to oversee the 38,000-member union's finances to make sure her order is obeyed.

Candidates, federal registered political parties and the electoral district associations of registered political parties are not third parties.

I assume the legal term for "third party" is quite similar.

I was going to suggest that an account be opened at a financial institution and all pay records be forwarded by the BCTF upon consent from the members to another union which would oversee the payments of donated contributions. They account would be advertised internationally.
Teachers would be paid in full their equivalent strike funds.
All extra monies including the amount of the original strike fund monies would be split evenly to all schoolsfor play equipment, gym supplies, books or computers .

But you sure nixed that idea, didn't you Madame Justice Brenda Brown?

WITH DUE RESPECT YOUR HONOUR I therefore believe that you leave the citizens of British Columbia no choice but to call a GENERAL STRIKE quickly and immediately in full force from all unions and supporting factions (defined as...A group of persons forming a cohesive, usually contentious minority within a larger group) This means all parents, companies, organizations and anyone else that supports the teachers.

No escalating snail's pace action, but immediate full force action.

JIM SINCLAIR YOU are the one to lead this just fight in order to put a quick end to this corruption.

YOUR LEADERSHIP IS NEEDED NOW!

YOU MUST ACT IMMEDIATELY! With as many participants as possible, and let the rest catch up later if they are asleep at the switch!

THIS IS EVERYONES FIGHT NOW!

(DISCLAIMER - The commenter is a law abiding concerned citizen and parent who in no way disrespects Madame Justice Brenda Brown or the Supreme Court of Canada.)

Since the BC Fed is made up of almost exclusively government workers, and that only about 25% of all workers are unionised to begin with, I cannot see lefties squealing about yet another general strike having any more success than all the other times.

Get some facts straight. The Contempt ruling is from the BC Supreme Court. Perhaps you should learn how government works.

But that is what the left has always been about. Plenty of rhetotric but not enough votes to rule. Even when they manage to form a government, it bombs because the left lacks the ability to look inwardly.

Just a question for anyone out there who may know. Is the money that they have "frozen" from teachers not our own money? Have we not given some money each paycheck to the BCTF so that they could give it back to us in these situations? How can this move be legal? When was the last time they froze the assets of the Hells Angles?

Luckylaine,

Yes it is your money.
Yes Madame Justice Brenda Brown does have authority to take this action.

Is this a just and moral action?

NO!!!!!

IS THIS AN DECISION THAT A REASONABLE THIRD PARTY WOULD MAKE?

NO!!!!!

THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER TO THIS JUDICIAL AND GOVERNMENTAL CORRUPTION.

A QUICK AND IMMEDIATE GENERAL STRIKE

How about a quick general election? Oh, you lost on May 17 and you would lose again.

Why? Oh, socialists cannot ask that question.

My fear, as a teacher, is that this battle will get so large that my big issues will be lost in the wind.
Class size and composition is what keeps me on the picket line with my head held high.
If this becomes a "labour" or "union" against the government war we may loose both the amazing public support we have and our fair and reasonable demands!

I won't be receiving my $50 strike pay but I'll survive.
I just spent the last 2 years as a full time student ( I only started my teaching position 3 weeks ago) so I'm well adjusted to getting by on nothing. I also grew up in a lower income, working class family so I'm very resourceful.
I am not at all intimidated or worried by the court ruling.

I for one didn't vote to have the BCTF run this province.

Nor did I or the pluarality that elected the present government The NDP is nothing but a bloated, unsuccessful mouthpiece for public sector unions.

Look at the enthnic make-up of these people? Representative of our society? Do they open newcomers with open arms.

Perhaps a debate into their entrance requirements would be in order.

Thats fair comment luckylaine.

I've been on a number of picket lines, some legal and some not so ummm legal.

There is nothing more important than those out in support of the dispute respecting the primary wishes of the actual organization in dispute.

Folks mean well, but sometimes they are their is in support of their own rightful anger. But anothers dispute is not the place to act up or act out.

We had to deal with this issue when the ferries were down.

Dear Working Person,

If you are correct in your assumption that...

...you are incorrect in you assumption that...

Firstly the amount of support that the teachers have is unprecedented and astonishing to say the lest.

Secondly many other workers have the same beliefs and ideology as what the BC FED represents...A just and fair society for all.

THIRDLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WE THE PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED FROM THE MISTAKES OF THE LAST GENERAL STRIKES - WE NOW KNOW THAT THEY MUST BE FAST AND FAR REACHING WITH THE IMMEDIATE SUPPORT OF ALL - AND THAT MAY MEAN NATIONALLY

Sincerely,

Average Joe

Firstly the amount of support that the teachers have is unprecedented and astonishing to say the lest.

Sure, when you are, as the left does, preach to the converted, you tend to have everybody agree with you.

THIRDLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WE THE PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED FROM THE MISTAKES OF THE LAST GENERAL STRIKES - WE NOW KNOW THAT THEY MUST BE FAST AND FAR REACHING WITH THE IMMEDIATE SUPPORT OF ALL - AND THAT MAY MEAN NATIONALLY

I would be interested to find what said lessons are. BTW, shouldn't you be out planning your strike instead of spouting rhetoric?

And by the way, "just and fair" for the BC Fed has always meant:

"Give is everything we want and you'll have peace...until next year."

I wouldn't bother responding to "Working Man". He is a drive-by troll who rarely engages in actual debate.

Very true verso.

Lucklaine,

Your issue will not be lost, but do not forget this is not just your issue, this is our issue.

I witnessed what went on in the classroom when I volunteered in my son's class. I saw how the teachers time was distracted from other special needs kids because they did not have the proper support in the classroom. How the other students were effected by the disruptions and lack of instructional support.

Believe me... a large general strike will put a quick end to all the problems

Just look at all the negative right wing response because they know it will make them cave and quick.

WE HAVE THE POWER, LET'S USE IT!

A troll is anyone not offering an off the shelf opinion. Look at the wonderful prose above.

And true, I do not post much. My business is booming and I have little free time. We gave our people nice bonuses this year. The funny thing is that my employees do not need a union to tell them what to think.

Poor them!!

Nor did I or the pluarality that elected the present government The NDP is nothing but a bloated, unsuccessful mouthpiece for public sector unions.

Look at the enthnic make-up of these people? Representative of our society? Do they open newcomers with open arms.

Perhaps a debate into their entrance requirements would be in order.

THIS JUST SHOWS EVERYONE WHAT A BIGOTED, RACIST TYPE OF PERSON YOU ARE

Working person my ass.

From Wikipedia:

"In internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages on the internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt the discussion or to upset its participants."

Good night, all.

Name calling. When your argument is not supported by fact, result to Straw Man. Very becoming.

The fact is, sir, you are most probably unemployed yourself so on a general strike already. Not on BC Fed leader in the 30 odd years I have been following this absurdity has ever been willing to put his own (and they were all men) ass, or pay cheque, on the line. Not Kinnard, not Georgetti, and nor will Sinclair.

BTW, shouldn't you be out planning your strike instead of spouting rhetoric?

You know I tried to help, but they said that they have so many people on it and everything is under control and in the works that I could just go home and relax.

Average Joe sits back and sighs.

Me a racist? Hmmmmmm.

Have a look at the process of becoming a teacher in BC works to exclude anyone who did not graduate from a BC university, or makes it extremely difficult for working people to obtain a PDPP postion.

Have a look at how the nurse's union excludes foreign trained nurses.

The union leaders and members in BC are ovewhelmingly white, old and over weight from feeding from the public trough for so long.

The fact is, sir, you are most probably unemployed yourself so on a general strike already. Not on BC Fed leader in the 30 odd years I have been following this absurdity has ever been willing to put his own (and they were all men) ass, or pay cheque, on the line. Not Kinnard, not Georgetti, and nor will Sinclair.

When did I call you a name?

If I am unemployed show me one of my posts during 7:00 am to 4:00 pm

As for putting their name on the line, I hope you are wrong about Mr. Jim Sinclair.

PS Please don't refer to me as SIR.

I've been on a number of picket lines, some legal and some not so ummm legal.

There is nothing more important than those out in support of the dispute respecting the primary wishes of the actual organization in dispute.

Folks mean well, but sometimes they are their is in support of their own rightful anger. But anothers dispute is not the place to act up or act out.

We had to deal with this issue when the ferries were down.

Hi Pete,

If you are referring to my posts (not too sure if you are) they were in no way meant to portray anger but only a quick and effective solution to the [/B]Corruption, Collusion, and Criminality of our governmental and judicial dictations[B] and to rectify the important issues in our schools.

Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Sorry, that was suppose to read...

Corruption, Collusion, and Criminality of our governmental and judicial dictations

After being out on the line, and organizing the line, I am heartened by the support on this site. Thank you for hearing our voices. The Campbell government will not silence us. The court's ruling today is a gift for us. Across the city it has galvanized members because we are not striking in order to earn $50! This is about so much more, and it shows how deeply the Campbell government has misread teachers.
We are committed, resolute, and determined to resist an unjust law and an unjust government that abuses the legislature. We are undaunted and unafraid. We will not blink. Letters of support are pouring in from around the globe-from Mexico, Ecuador, Peru, the US, South Africa...don't the Liberals realize fascism is bad for business?

Big Thanks to you Zena and all the other teachers out there supporting the betterment of our kids.

Average Joe bows in respect:)

Great to here of all the international support! It is amazing what true and just beliefs will bring.

Sorry, that should have read...

Great to hear...

Average Joe blushes in remembrance of his English teacher.

In Mexico city teachers are demonstrating at the Canadian embassy and demanding that the Canadian government intervene!

Average Joe,

To reiterate a previous post I made on this thread I must insist that you not feed the trolls, specifically Working Person. Engaging with them simply drags the debate way, way down to their level, and meaningful discussion becomes impossible. It's not worth your time, and now everyone else has to sift through all the garbage posts to get read the ones which are worthwhile.

A visit to LabourStart.com shows that B.C. teachers are now the labour news on at least four continents. You want a war, Gordo. We'll give you one.

Sorry. Make that labourstart.org.

In the 1970s and 80s in Japan yakuza thugs were employed to prevent the teachers union from using there own offices.

In BC, we have a tradition of the rule of law, so the Minister of Labor uses this against us, and so Campbell goes to the courts to effectively close down teachers union offices.

But still the strike drags on. This is taking too long! The Liberals should just change to organized crime tactics. Just put tycoon Li Kai Shing's son in charge as Minister of Labour. He lives in Vancouver. I mean, he's got a lot of Teochiu clansmen successfully running opium out of the Golden Triangle of China, Laos and Burma to Vancouver already. Teachers could just be forced to the governemt's will by employing inexpensive thugs to beat them up and attack them in their homes rather than having to deal with expensive lawyers. The strike would be over tomorrow!

So, why not just follow that model for exploiting labor and apply it to teachers? Then we can be assured that this will be BC's Golden Decade or maybe should that be Golden Triangle Decade.

zena: It would be great if there was some way that those letters of support could be posted for all to read. Tyee...that would make for an interesting article...re: the international support BC teachers are receiving. :-)

Average Joe,

To reiterate a previous post I made on this thread I must insist that you not feed the trolls, specifically Working Person.

Sorry jimmy_laroux

Point duly noted and accepted.

A group of activists from a number of BC unions distributed this leaflet on October 11.

Article from http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/camfield131005.html

BC Teachers Backed by All of Us Can Win against This Government!

Across B.C. teachers are striking over fundamentals. It's a strike for our children. It's a fight to maintain quality public education. It's a strike against the policies of a government rolling in money that has closed 113 schools and terminated 2,600 teaching positions. It's a strike to halt the Liberal privatization of education, which Premier Gordon Campbell is continuing despite the fact that 51 per cent of British Columbians voted last May against any further privatization.It's a strike to break the Liberal public sector wage freeze and to prevent Campbell from imposing this freeze on the rest of the public sector unions who are going to the bargaining table next spring. And above all, it's a strike to preserve some of the fundamental freedoms of our society, the right to engage in free collective bargaining and to go on strike. In the last four years the Liberals have outlawed public sector strikes (nurses, ferry workers, hospital workers). They also legislated and end to a strike by private sector forest workers. The only way the right to strike can be preserved in the present climate is by exercising that right legally if possible, illegally if necessary. And no amount of hypocritical whining about "respect for the law" coming from the mouth of a convicted drunk driver can change that fact.The teachers are striking over fundamentals -- that's why they have to win!The stakes are very high. BCTF members risk huge fines, class action lawsuits, jail terms, a very real end to all future bargaining rights, and possibly even revocation of the Rand formula. This fight is for keeps, and will have a huge impact on what happens to the trade union movement over the next decade.

Continued...

Continued from previous post...

But if the stakes are high, we have to remember something else as well: there is every reason to believe we have the collective ability to win this struggle.Yes, to win we need unity in action. We need to make it clear this strike has the active, unqualified support of the entire labour movement. We must immediately mobilize the membership of every union across B.C. to come out in support of the teachers. We need to stand with the membership of the BCTF, and this means we need to stand with them, shoulder to shoulder in action, when the going gets tough. Campbell and his business backers must know for certain that the B.C. labour movement will not allow them to single out the teachers for repression, that we will not stand by and watch their right to strike be crushed, and that we understand what it means to say "an injury to one is an injury to all".The teachers are fighting for all of us, showing exemplary unity and courage as they do so. However, we cannot expect them to fight alone. They don't just need words of support, they need active, practical solidarity. We should immediately set up teacher support committees in every city and town, open to all, whether union members, parents, community activists, or all three. These committees can be vehicles to organize effective community support for the BCTF including mass support pickets, huge rallies, demonstrations, and occupations to back teachers. Above all, it means we need to prepare now for widespread job action to support the BCTF. Collectively we have the power to shut this province down -- every unionized workplace and then some. When push comes to shove, if we're united, and act together, we can win against this hated government. If the teachers are out on strike to defend our children's future, we need to do the same to defend their future – and all of our futures.

Working Person, perhaps you're one of those many employers with a relatively small staff, who knows most of them and recognises their value and contribution. Usually, these are the best employers to work for, even while a small minority are the very worst.

All that changes when one gets into a large organisation where a bureaucratic hiearchy knows few employees, if any, and few employees know many of the others.

In come the hated, soul-destroying, efficiency-stifling rules, making constant worker/management skirmishes prevalent.

Thus, we then find management welcoming a Union to help maintain a sense of order and to help settle disputes.

Unions need an illusion of confrontation - "them vs us" for generating "solidarity" but
for the most part, it is just an illusion.

It's worked fairly well until recent times - until the Fascists decided to force their dogma upon our society. But Fascists don't hate unions, for reasons above.

What they hate is INDEPENDANT unions which don't do what they're told. Hitler and Mussolini allowed all kind of unions, but they made sure their leadership was there to enforce government policies

Are there any similarities here? :-)

Brilliant decision by Madame Justice Brown. If the lawbreakers don't obey her court order now she will bring down the hammer in a very big way and have every justification for doing so. Just who the hell do these people think they are to defy the courts this way?

Watch out for those fascists Scylla. They're everywhere. Maybe even in your closet.

Here is a great article for you on the BC Fiberals and the the fight of the teachers.

Power to the People :)

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2005/n13oc05b.htm

The news that the Court is denying teachers our strike pay was like a blow to the stomach. I consider this a personal attack on the teachers (especially the young ones) by the judge.

All the extra time I put in at school, all the sports teams I coach, all the money I've spent on my classroom ... I am beginning to wonder if it's all worth it. I could make a lot more money doing something else. I'll be up at 5:00 to work the picketline tomorrow, but the constant attacks from the government are dragging on me. I love teaching, but maybe it's not in the best interests of my family. I'll have to think about it.

Cheers,
Chris

Chris,

Hang in there, your about to get A LOT of support by the end of tomorrow.

Stay Stong Bud!

nemesis this one's for you and all the teachers.

If you read it all you will find your answers nemesis.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/bc-o13.shtml

Apples and oranges Chris. The judge was not commenting on your profession or the fine job that I'm sure you do in the classroom. She was simply telling an organization that they cannot encourage an illegal action by paying their employees to participate in it. Teachers need to realize that the courts are not the government and they are quite simply making rulings that consider the laws and how they affect society. This mess exists b/c the BCTF has been playing on a very slippery slope since they were taken to the far left about 6 or so years ago. It's a shame, but teachers need to realize that they need a change in direction and most likely a new structure within their union. Shifting from an association of professionals to a trade union is an important and significant development.

Lynn--here are those links!

http://bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/support/TeacherOrgs.html

http://bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/support/TeacherOrgs-Canada.html

http://www.bctf.bc.ca/TakingAStand/archive/2005-06/2005-10-12b.html

Chris--do not worry1 Your union--me, the teacher next to you on the line--will be there to support you. We are fighting for your children's future. For their right to a decent education. For their right to decide the terms under which they will work. This is a noble and a just fight and we have overwhelming local, national and international support. Read the links above. The right thing to do is rarely the easy thing! Stay the course. That a small group of committed individuals can change the world is the best lesson any one of us can hope to teach! Now get some sleep! I'm on the line at 5 am too, and as I am humbled by the outpouring of public support, I hope you will feel humbled too. We are in a unique position, and we cannot fail our students now!;-)

Yer right, Nenesis. I'll bet yer proud of it too. Quislings usually are.

I can't sleep so I came in here to vent a little so maybe I'll get some sleep eventually. I am afraid that I am angry and I am frustrated but I'm ready for a fight. I'm sure that anyone who reads this post will be able to detect a hint of ummm anger in this post and I do apologize ahead of time if I offend someone but surely you can try to understand how all of us teachers feel right now, regardless of whether you support teachers in their fight for public education or not.

So here goes part 1.

I voted "yes" for both of the BCTF votes, in fact I wish that I could have added a few explanation points afterwards. I am sick of hearing people go on and on about the second vote. They obviously are choosing to ignore the fact that the BCTF did NOT have to hold that second vote at all. We already had a yes mandate and most unions would have gone ahead with just that. The BCTF Exec. made a decision to ensure that all teachers had an opportunity to vote when and if there was a change to the job action plan. They did not want the teachers to feel the same way the HEU members felt .. cheated, etc. I am both grateful and appreciative of the efforts the BCTF Exec. has made for all of us. I have read some posts elsewhere from teachers who did not vote that second time. Most of them were too busy at school to make the election but didn't worry about it because they were pretty sure the result would be a yes vote. On the other hand, one teacher on our staff went completely out of her way on a day when she had a funeral to attend to ensure that she had an opportunity to vote. So if there were a few teachers who would have voted "no", I'm afraid that they chose not to take advantage of their right to vote and have had to live with the consequences (just as anyone who chooses not to vote in a provincial vote has to do). The teacher on my staff made an extra effort to vote. They could have too.

I am also sick of reading posts where people claim to know the thoughts and reasoning behind teachers' decision to walk the picket line. The BCTF did NOT tell me how to vote. The BCTF did NOT tell me how to feel. The BCTF did NOT tell me what to base my convictions on. The BCTF, more importantly Jinny Sims, has given teachers back pride in our profession after it has been squashed repeatedly by the Liberal government and others before them. I don't care what all of you who are so negative think you know. Teachers are not lying when we say that we are in this for our students. Those of us who would gladly give up a raise to improve learning and working conditions in our schools are sincere when we say that. Those teachers who find the raise to be an important issue have a right to feel that way. I can't think of anyone who would be happy with a 1% raise per year over a 10 yr. period. I am sorry that you work at a job that you don't believe in but I believe very strongly in mine and, more importantly, I believe very strongly in my students and their right to the best education that money can buy. If that means smaller class sizes and more supports for students (which, in my opinion, it does) then so be it. I am insulted that it has been inferred that my colleagues and I are lying when we try to explain how important our students' learning conditions are to us. Why, after all, do you think we became teachers if not for the love of children and learning????

part 2

We have been asked not to discuss the court ruling in writing until some of this gets straightened out and I will comply with that request as best I can. Not because the BCTF has directed me to but because it makes sense that we don't comment until we fully understand what this court decision means. (Betcha Justice Brown ends up with some cushy Liberal appointment eventually though.) Surely if you people can trust me to educate your children then you can trust me to have some common sense and the ability to think for myself! My colleagues and I are the BCTF .. not Jinny Sims .. not any of our past presidents .. not any of the future presidents ... the BCTF is every single teacher in this province. If you don't believe that, go to the next BCTF Annual General Meeting in March and see for yourself.

Yes, I am a single parent who is going through a messy divorce involving a drunk who refuses to pay child support. Yes, I have some rather large bills to pay as a result of that. Yes, I have had to worry about daycare while this strike has been going on (although not to the same extent as many parents out there). Yes, I am scared of what this court order means to unions all over BC. Yes, I am afraid that the issues of class size and student supports will be lost now that this fight has gotten so big. Yes, I am waiting for direction from my union but it doesn't mean that they can tell me how to think. Will I give up? You can bet your ass I won't!!!!!! I care far too much for the education of my son and my students and for the right of all British Columbians to receive a free, public education.

I watched the faces of my colleagues on the picket line as we listened to the announcement of the court order. I watched their faces light up at first when they heard no fines. Then I watched as resolve strengthened in them as they understood what was being said. Teachers are angry and some are nervous but in no way are we ready to give up. There is far too much at stake here and we are not ready to be forced to go back to work with our tails between our legs yet again.

I hope that OUR Executive can find a way to resolve this with the government. I hope that the government will finally see the light and begin to actually negotiate with us. Contrary to the belief of some, the BCTF tried numerous times (35) to negotiate with BCPSEA and the government. How many times do you have to see Mike de Wrong stand in front of cameras, not even able to face anyone in the eye, as he spouted his refusal to meet with teachers before you begin to believe it???? How many times does Jinny have to say "We are available 24/7" before you and your precious Liberals will believe her???? How many times do you think we (the people of BC, not just teachers) can be lied to by this FIBeral government before we distrust them??? Why should we believe a promise that negotiations will FINALLY begin once we've gone back to work?? Do you not remember the promise Gordo made that he was not to going to sell BC Rail??? Did you ever notice that BC Rail was sold??? Why did the government wait until AFTER this job action had started before they even began to offer teachers an opportunity to negotiate a free, collective agreement??? Surely all you anti-teacher people can understand this.

part 3 (last one, promise)

I am a single parent with not a lot of cash. But I don't need that $50/day strike pay to survive. Sometimes there are far more important things to fight for than a pay cheque and I believe that our (teachers and the BCTF) issues are more than enough reason to fight this fight until they are achieved, no matter what it may do to my bank account.

To those of you who believe that teachers don't have any business negotiating class size limits and student supports, then who do you think should??? Shirley Bond with her limited vocabulary? Gordo with his lies?? Mike de Wrong?? Those of you who, because they were in class rooms with unlimited class sizes in the 1960's, think that teachers are exaggerating the problems in our schools today?? Why did I bother to study for 5 yrs. to become a teacher then????? Why do you trust me to educate your children, recommend when it's time to get extra help for your child, counsel and coach your child, and everything else I do, but you can't trust me to make sound, educationally-wise choices about your child's education system??? I'm not saying that administrators, parents and even students shouldn't have a say in this but shouldn't teachers' input matter at all? If the other stakeholders in education knew how important these issues were, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place!!! And don't you wonder why Shirley Bond offered that roundtable discussion AFTER the job action started? If the government intended for any of this to be resolved, don't you think they would have suggested the roundtable months and months ago???

Should I or any other resident of BC sit back and take this government's attempt to break unions? NOOOOOOO!!!! I do not want the efforts of those before me to go to waste. Do I believe that the NDP would do much better if they were the party in power? No, because I don't trust any government especially when they are in power. (the NDP stabbed teachers in the back too as stated in the article.) So you see? It's not the Liberals although they have done more harm to our education system than any previous government that I've witnessed in my 18 yr. teaching career. It's any government who thinks that they can rob our education and healthcare systems in order to provide tax cuts for the rich and to pay for such frivolous things as the Winter Olympics. Do I believe that government has the right to break unions in this province? NO! All you people who are so negative on here ... every single one of you enjoys priveleges that were fought for by union members before you ... regardless of whether you are a union member or not ... work in the private or public sectors. Do you enjoy your weekends and stat. holidays? Thank a union member who fought for them!!

If we, the residents of BC, allow this government to continue this attack on unions, every single one of us (whether members of a union or not) will suffer. Just like the parents who are still unable to see the effect of inadequate funding in our schools today, some of you may not feel the effects right away. But I can assure you that, eventually, you will be wishing you could turn back the clock so that you would be able to take advantage of the missed opportunity to fight for the rights of ALL British Columbians.

I'm sorry for the length of all these posts but I feel very strongly about this as you might have been able to tell.

Nemesis, you're back! How's the program going? Are you reading books yet? I recommend Huck Finn by Mark Twain as a fine place to start, as it argues a radical concept for its time: blacks are real people. (Remember, lawmakers of that era had made sure they were not people in the legal sense.)

Be careful, my friend. There's no telling where your voyage of intellectual discovery might lead...

Spedteacher: WOW!!! Excellent posting.
Churchill once said something to the effect: that being shot at focuses the mind. Small wonder you couldn't sleep and had to vent.
The bottom-feeders are always complaining that their critics are using politics all the time. But of course, everything in life is politics.
As from Pericles:
"We consider a man who takes no interest in the state not as harmless, but as useless: and though only a few may originate policy, WE ARE ALL ABLE TO JUDGE IT."
Those who find laws draconian and unjust must protest, in word and deed. A fact from an earlier posting; democracy is not only in force one day every four years (but 24/7.my addition)

Quite honestly I think that was the best the judge could do. She didn't give the government a victory with that Order, but she had to follow a contempt Order with SOMETHING.

As I have indicated, based on an average teachers salary about $12,000 have been deducted from source. Let's say the teachers are out for one month (the 90 days). This month of lost salary is returned when taxes are filed. The money isn't lost it is just deferred. (My family has sold properites, vehicles, a business to fund polling-used charge cards to live etc-so I don't spend teacher's money easily).

The Judge has put the spotlight on the teacher's. If I am a teacher this is precisely what I want. I don't want to whine about the judge's Order, it is upon me and it is time to accept it. The Judge has provided the teacher's with an opportunity to do something great, and that is fight for something they believe in. If you believe in something passionately you have a duty to fight for it.

I have conducted legal work at the BCSC and Court of Appeal and can tell you without batting an eyelash, some of these judges should not be judging anything. Others are brilliant, but at the end of the day, these people are like anyone else in other jobs. Some are good, some are competent, some are average, some stink to high heaven, and some are corrupt as hell.

There are more lawyers than any other professional seeking alcohol and drug treatment. I mean many many lawyers. Why? because the job they do was not what they expected. They wanted to fight for justice, they end up padding bills to clients to meet billing quotas. They end up rolling over on someone's serious injury because they need the proceeds from the 30-35% they have gouged clients. They have people who used to share Christmas's and holidays together filling out false affidavits to win divorce cases and support huge billings.

The courts when you get past the ornaments are not a good place. The Rule of Law is not even remotely in practice what it is intended to be. You would only know this if you have been in the courts.

The teachers have something that neither the politicians (how much graft do you really think goes down with these people? Native land claims money--please-I think you would be hard pressed to find 50% of politicians that haven't been greased), or the courts have.

Teachers still have their integrity. They have their innocence. These are precisely the principles of life we want our next leaders to have. Teacher's need to understand they are the new apostles. Society doesn't believe in doctors the way the used to. They are seen now as greedy and self-serving.

You have our kids, and this is important. The sacrifices that teachers make now provide a compelling forum for the students they educate to contemplate their future roles. The next group of kids in my own estimation are the most important ones.

The baby boomers like Campbell could never be their fathers many who fought in wars, righteous wars. This demographic fights for toys. They are for all intents and purposes, rich and useless. In five years they will be less relevant in ten years irrelevant. The sooner they are gone, the better.

The 'watchers' those in their late 30's need to learn from those in their 40's, the ones who are fixing this stage for the next.

The kids are watching all of us.

What the teachers do next is important because all eyes are on you.

Davey-boy

An addition to your sparse reading list comprising Huck Finn: Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath

spedeacher,

thanks for your post - you are undoubtably a strong and caring person and i appreciate where you are right now. we all have to stick together and keep up the fight - i agree with you wholeheartedly and wish you well in all of your struggles right now - you're in a tough spot. i hope you got some sleep - give you son a kiss before you head out on the picket line and remember that its his future that you and i are fighting for!

I heard Jim Sinclair on CKNW this morning explaing how the Supreme Court ruling was a victory for all working people in BC.
Talk about spin. This is a new standard for spinning truth into fiction. Does anyone really take this guy seriously ?
I know I don't.
And Spedteacher, please get some sleep so we can have a rest from your long postings.

There he goes again Blah..blah..blah. Nothing constructive to say.

spedteacher: WOW!

Robbins offered,

The 'watchers' those in their late 30's need to learn from those in their 40's, the ones who are fixing this stage for the next.

Whoa, you have more guts that I to say that! But I have had similar conversations about this subject with friends of mine who are also in their early 30's.

It is an odd generation, as most of the boomers live a better lifestyle than their children will.

The skyrocketing cost of real estate, education, and transportation make it difficult for many to become established.

However, the current "child-bearing" generation is labelled as self-absorbed and into "things". Little is mentioned that people put off families because there are limits on opportunities. If you cannot move about of your 800 square foot apartment why would you want to start a family?

But this generation of people in their 20s and 30s are confortable. They can buy DVD players, iPods, and cell phones. But even if they gave those items up, could they really move out of their parents basement? Or would they simply move to someones elses basement.

It is an odd paradox of culture and privilege that we have here. The boomers in charge say we have no money for social programs, education, and public healthcare but there always seems to be money for cruises, fancy restaurants, and other trips. Hey, the Canucks even make money now!

If we are indeed on the decline, lets hope that less fortunate countries are at least making improvements to their infrastructure.

Somehow though, I think this it not the case.

Seems like wealth is becoming concentrated by a system that is being set up.

back on the job eh ronny what are your hours for el gordo 9-5 if you are not working for the libs why are you only on here during working hours? Still haven't moved yet eh, you really should get out a bit and broaden your mind.

I'm not a teacher, nor am I a union employee. I don't have kids, but I happily pay taxes to support schools and pay teacher salaries because I believe that a well educated population is in the best interests of society. I also believe that the state of our public education system is shameful, and it's not through the fault of the teachers. When the government can tell us with a straight face that they have the money to spend on fiascos like the fast ferries, RAV, and the Olympics while they are cutting back on school support staff and librarians and adding more and more kids.

I have a number of friends who are teachers, and they bust their asses to make up the shortfalls for their students from where the government has cut corners on funding. One friend bought classroom supplies with his own money because there was no funding for up-to-date textbooks. Teachers aren't paid that much. I make twice as much as many teachers, and I put in half the amount of time when you factor in stuff like extra subject coaching, after school activities, and class prep. I wouldn't work under the conditions in BC schools...not with an employer intent on grinding them down over an anti-union vendetta.

I'd like to ask the parents who are complaining about the "inconvenience" of the strike just one thing. Do you want your kids taught by people who happy in their work, have a decent wage (that's decent as in "can feed/clothe/house yourself", not extravagant) and care that they are well educated and in a good learning environment, or do you want teachers who are bitter, frustrated and don't have the resources to do their jobs because their employer is waging a war of attrition? I know which I'd prefer.

If you are so concerned that the BCTF is impacting your lives through the public school system, put your money where your mouth is and either homeschool your kids or put them into private education. After all, if the private/for-profit sector is so superior to the public sector, don't you think your kids deserve the best?

Yeah, Gordo could pull an endgame move like Reagan did and fire all of the teachers. But that would essentially destroy the public school system. There's no way they could do that and get any kind of quality education back up and running, and the ill will among any teachers desperate enough to sign on would be pretty ugly. Not to mention the fact that if they did that, I think they would almost certainly precipitate a general strike.

I support the teachers out there - not because they're noble and heroic, nor because I hate the Liberals, but because everyone has a right to a fair wage and decent working conditions. I would absolutely support a general strike, if that's what it comes down to. I hope it doesn't, but I don't think Gordo understands anything beyond brute force.

working person sounds like you haven't been doing much reading when it comes to neo cons like your buddy el gordo, last time I checked he was putting us further in debt, playing with the new accounting system.

He can afford to give big tax breaks to biz and the rich with questionable results but can't afford to take care of our health or education that we all depend on. Break it so you can fix it with privitization which has also failed miserably in many documented cases, while not health or education related the Victoria Arena is a perfect example of a ppp failure in my opinion and could cost allan lowe his career! As it should!

So you abviously still respect el gordo even tho he has failed miserably as both a leader and a human being, driving while drunk is a pretty serious offence in some peoples eyes and he could have easily killed someone!

Many a drunk driver has sobered up to that horrible reality! I have heard people say God looks after drunks and fools well el gordo is both in my opinion, I wouldn't be so forgiving! The media saved his ass and will again and again!

re: these so called big tax breaks for Gordon Campbells Howe St. buddies.
These tax breaks will result in the treasury enjoying an increase in revenue. This revenue is what funds these social programs that so many seem to enjoy.
The budgets for these programs are ballooning out of control. How else are we going to fund them. By increasing taxes ? No, this doesn't work.

Davey-Boy: Wonderful portrait of how the human mind progresses. Thanks for taking the time to tell us.

We often hear people parrot a few cliches with which they hope they have created a membership for themselves with another group. And of course, they have; at enormous cost to themselves.

But when people study, their minds are opened wider to new ideas. They can even begin to identify the self-serving hypocrisy of many old ideas. And they are enlightened. Wiser, kinder, more constructive.

And from there, we develop a logical social conscience. Nice to hear about that, Davey-Boy.

Moat-now that's what I am talking about. Yours is the kind of blog that inspires me. As harsh as I was in my blog, (general depiction-perhaps unfair), I am grateful that you picked it up and ran with it. Excellent.

To others who comment on the Erwinization of things on the blog. My organization as I have indicated is conservative. As a consequence we deal with, or from time to time are involved with people who think precisely as Ron Erwin does. Indeed, there are many that are far more adamant than he.

I don't want to appear to be playing den mother, but the point I would make is that his and other blogs are important because this venue may be the best attempt yet at avoiding groupthink. Mr. Erwin is by no means isolated in his opinion. Mr. Erwin (and others) different opinions are extremely valuable because he is informing everyone what goes on in other people's (the neocon's) head.

To understand the world better we need to empathize with other ideologies. These folks take their belief systems as seriously as the social democrats (socialists) take theirs.

This microcosm of blogging reflects I think a similar difference of opinion between the BC Liberal government and (presently) the BC Teachers

"These tax breaks will result in the treasury enjoying an increase in revenue. This revenue is what funds these social programs that so many seem to enjoy."

There is no evidence that that is true, although lack of evidence won't stop you from believing in it. You may be still grieving his death but Reagan's trickle down theory has been exposed as an utter sham that ranks right up there with his other great policies like funding the Afghan and Contra terrorists.

Mr. Erwin (and others) different opinions are extremely valuable because he is informing everyone what goes on in other people's (the neocon's) head.
Yes they make me shiver but they soon wake me up to the fact that society has a long way to go to curb this type of attitude. Is sterilization an option. Justice Brown what do you think?

sped teacher

Thank you very much for taking the time early this morning to post those comments. I printed them out to share on the picket line this morning, and I have already had three or four teachers comment on it very positively. Hang in there.

Governments of all stripes aer challenged to maintain financial balance between expenditure and revenue.

The Liberals seem to be trying to attract investment through reduction in corporate taxes and time will only tell. It is a fact that if one wants to attract investment one must look at the rates charged in other jurisdictions. IN this case likely Alberta.

Employment opportunities are also important thus the Liberals (and the NDP) saw the 2010 Olympics as a process to create employment.

Expenditure on the government side is also competitive with demands for more social programs, healthcare, education, childrens issues, forests etc. Infrastructure is also a high priority as well. All these issues do require careful management of the tax dollars available.

The left and the right do have different approaches to establish this balance. Some projects are winners and others are complete flops.

Even though the education budget is the highest ever allocated in BC, other notable employee negotiations with the public service have yet to be started. Our surplus is only so much.

So the question how do we fund all these competing interests for the tax dollar?

In case you missed it Jim, that's braunshirt above. :-)

"Oh editor, editor.", that mean man called me a bad name. I can call everyone who disagrees with me on this site a whiner, but that's just my democratic right. But that mad wild dog lefty is attacking my right to be a fascist. Gimme a Beer break."

Jim. Another thousand lines. Only this time write, "I will stop being a whiner myself."

Everytime you have another Beer, you only urinate your pants.

On the other hand, Beer likes me. I can tell. :-)

Thanks for the links, zena. :-)

To Chris H. and spedteacher: Hang in there. Chris, I've enjoyed reading so many of your comments over the past few years, I can tell you're a great teacher so don't let the bad guys win this shoot-out. And spedteacher you have added much to this discussion and seem to be handling all the things you are dealing with with much grace.

I'll say what little wisdom I have this way:

I watched a wonderful old movie the other night, (especially if you like wild horses)... "The Misfits" with Clark Gable and Marilyn Monroe. Gable plays an aging, washed-out cowboy who meets the Monroe character the day of her divorce. They drive out to the desert together and thus the adventure begins...

I'll cut to the chase:

After Monroe tells Gable about all the bumpy patches she has had of late, Gable gives that great kind grin he is known for and says: "Life goes that way sometimes".

Just as she turns to walk away he adds: "But don't ever forget - it goes the other way too."

That's about the only sure thing I know, things will change...this all will, too. :-)

What is this war about? I think it helps to separate the issues so we can discuss this without being so divided in camps. But I am not convinced all parties to this dispute want us to think too deeply about it- they like camps.

1. Bill 12. Should teachers be able to strike? And if not, should they at least have alternative dispute resolution mechanisms, such as binding arbitration available to others deemed "essential services"? My opinion is without such alternatives, Bill 12 looks like union busting. A big important issue to fight about, to strike about, to protest about, but let us not call this "for the sake of the kids".

2. Classroom conditions. This one IS for the sake of the kids. I personally would like them GREATLY improved and Liberals have failed on this. Its about time some action was taken. But my opinion is that factors such as classroom size should be part of negotiated contracts. Why? I don't want them used as bargaining chips behind closed negotiation doors (potentially traded for things like salary). Just as I don't want doctors negotiating the conditions of my hospital or pilots negotiating plane safety. We need to improve conditions with a public, open forum involving parents, government and especially teachers. And we needed it yesterday. There is talk of this now but we need action.

3. The role of unions. Can/should unions be able to engage in civil disobedience and/or engage in actions counter to labour law? And if they break the law, is penalizing them fair? I think individuals should be able to engage in civil disobedience (sometimes it's the only way to change bad laws) but I do not believe our labour laws allow unions to fund civil disobedience. I also believe individuals or groups should face legal penalties for breaking laws even when done as civil disobedience (even when I agree with the civil disobedience or the fight of the protesters!). Why? Because even though I may agree with the outcome they seek to achieve, I also believe it’s an inherent necessity that our laws are applied as consistently and neutrally as possible (at least until the law is changed). How much worse off we would be if the law only applied to some people and not others, depending upon whether we liked their cause or not. Sometimes this happens, but its wrong. I want my judiciary to read the law, and implement it, even when it runs counter to their personal beliefs.

Anyway these are just some issues that come to mind-I'm sure there are others- but they seem all mixed up in the rhetoric. Seems to me if you really give a lot of thought to what is going on here, you can agree with some issues, and not others. And until these issues get discussed as separate issues, we can’t move toward fixing all that is broke.

Correction- I had meant to write above:

"But my opinion is that factors such as classroom size should NOT be part of negotiated contracts."

Freudian slip? :)

Teachers above the law? What a novel concept. Hey, why not? They're all superior citizens, aren't they?

I feel much better today. Thursday was a low point for me, but the amount of support teachers are getting around the province has really picked up my spirits. Pretty much every principal in Vancouver has been great to their staffs out on the picketline. Trustees and MLAs are dropping off goodies. Seniors are making their way to the schools to walk a couple of laps with us. Teachers are demonstrating in front of Canadian embassies abroad. We have offers of support from so many groups outside BC that the BC Supreme Court has no authority over. I am so humbled by the support I feel like crying. I know our fight is for all the right reasons, and I really appreciate the support from everyone.

Thanks!

All righty-here is what I have from the millionaires/mercantile/Campbell donors expensive wine/cheese circuit.

After the obligatory comments about 'the Judge should be throwing the teachers in jail', we settled down to some sensible discussion (most of us).

There are a number of indisputable facts which came out of the (rather long) evening. First, not one of these Campbellites thought the legal verdict was good for the government (not one-laughter all around).

Two, absolute majority (not straw poll) believe that the fight is the teachers to lose- ie they stay out the perception is principle,

and 3333) they want Campbell gone, and 4) what the hell was he doing out of town.

Once again, a tiresome Robbins I told you so. The Mercantile class that supports Campbell (not Howe Street necessarily) does not like unnecessary labour unrest.

You would be stunned at the number of these fat cats who all said "why didn't he just pay them (the teachers) 2% or so, and give them more money for other things, if the teachers didn't take his offer they would have looked like the bad guys, but zero-what an idiot"

I know these people well, Campbell loses.

Robbins discussed....

The problem with these blogs is that there are those who simply troll for a reaction, and those who only react with emotion.

Some people do designate a lot of time creating their posts, and rightly or wrongly, they feel that they now have an emotional investment to protect on the internet. Someone who posts a two line attack on someone else's well thought out post may be trying to get a reaction, rather than promote discussion. This ulitmately cripples discussion.

Of course we are going to have some "group think" here as many of the articles posted are "left" learning. However, there are a few conservative posters that are willing to engage in proactive discussion.

With this discussion, though, what is the next step? How long can the Tyee sustain itself before it becomes a tired "rant" board?

Robbins offered,

Let's also face it, many of the sons and daughter's of this "class" are becoming or have become teachers. University tuition has steadily increased, and many of this class do not enjoy helping their out with their children's mortgages.

Paying for the education was ok, but now helping to pay for a house in Coquitlam or Langely?

So, with increasing university tuition, teachers are now having to come from an even more "well-to-do" group. And questions are being asked about the earnings vs. the educational investment required to become a teacher. I believe that the same thing will happen (and is happening to some extent) with lawyers.

Moat-I've got tears in my eyes. When a salty old dog like me, sees how a younger person like you writes, its a beautiful thing.

With all due respect, the Tyee will do its best to make this a workable dynamic, but in my humble opinion, a half dozen moats will give this type of forum all of the mojo it needs.

Ideological rants are important, because eventually those who rant (and I have been guilty of this myself), may eventually evolve from being 'stuck in their own head' to a place where they can reasonably and comfortably understand where the other person is coming from.

Here in lies the problem with political parties in this country, province, and in local politics. People think that if someone is elected they are necessarily smart or even competent, nothing could be further from the truth. There are many many people out there (maybe the moats of the world) who would make far better leaders than the ones we have).

Eventually these forums will become less about awkward Rogerian therapy and more about an exchange (read: transfer) of new and innovative ideas.

'Pretty much every principal in Vancouver has been great to their staffs out on the picketline. Trustees and MLAs are dropping off goodies.' Nice. All in support of an illegal strike. But who cares anyway? It's just the Supreme Court.

'Moat-I've got tears in my eyes. When a salty old dog like me, sees how a younger person like you writes, its a beautiful thing.'
Now I'm going to puke.

Thank you for the words of encouragement from all of you. I am proud to hear that my post was distributed amongst teachers on the picket lines. Thank you very much for that :-) And the long vent did allow me to go to sleep lol.

I was afraid that teachers would back down after the court order but am so extremely proud that they have done the exact opposite. Teachers are more determined than ever before. There are ways around the whole communication issue. The internet is a very useful tool, after all. If Justice Brown thought she could shut us up, she is sadly mistaken lol.

Teachers in my school district are passing out green ribbons to the public to be displayed on their cars to show support for the teachers. We are hoping that it becomes a province-wide campaign. Oh, and in case you're wondering, the green ribbon has been purchased by individual teachers who are not receiving their strike pay :-)

Green Ribbons, great idea.

Here's some direct lines to communicate what you think about things.

Gordon Campbell

Fax: 250-387-0087

Mike De Jong, Minister of Labour

Fax: 250-356-6595

Shirley Bond, Minister of Education

Fax: 250 387-3200

For the record, here's Jack Munro's explanation of his flight to Kelowna in 1983 (with the backing of the BC Fed, as I recall the discussion):

"We couldn't have handled a general strike. It meant that we were trying to overthrow a democratically elected government. That's not acceptable in British Columbia or anywhere else in Canada."

The conflict with the teachers started long ago, long before there was a British Columbia, Canada, North America or even Rome.

Socrates presented the concept that lifelong learning was a gift, to teach was to give the greatest gift of learning.

We have, collectively through time, changed our attitude regarding this and now find ourselves trapped. Missing the point about lifelong learning and its value to all of us and our children. Care must be taken in this conflict to not miss this point. I learned it first hand as a student facing the last round of these battles in senior years of high school in 1983 and 1984.

Now we ask do we have a 'general strike' in BC due to an EDUCATING MONOPOLY that the teachers have. With no large-scale alternative parents are feeling trapped, only those who have embraced homeschooling or private schools sense the alternatives. The majority feel they have no options.

I ask why should any other unions, who do not nor want to have such a powerful MONOPOLY on their industries support the teachers in this fight? Why join in a conflict with a group that has NO OTHER COMPETITORS BY STATUTE?
You may not be a teacher in BC unless approved by the BC College of Teachers, therefore they have a closed shop.

This is not a proper union establishment, for without competition the end user, public school children; therefore the chilren's parents have NO OTHER OPTIONS.

It is patently wrong for other unions who face competitive industries to support the Education Monopoly, unless some competitive factor is introduced.

One such system that has been proposed includes vouchers. I make no statement either way on such a system only that it is a start towards some kind of competition.

To ask for pay to give learning is no better than to ask for pay to give love.

Murdock; Thanks a lot. I had just gotten over throwing up all over the place after reading Robbins comments last night, then yours came along and I'm back at it.
Norman Spector; Thank you for that quote from Jack Munro, but are you sure there wasn't a 'goddamm it' in there somewhere?

ROBBINS, thank you for the honest exchange, I shall continue to read and exchange myself.

for nemesis, I am sad that you found mine and other comments a trouble, perhaps you should not read here until your system matures.

Norman Spector's quote of Jack displays that a correct understanding of our society is important and working to undermine the foundations of a democratically elected government will not be accepted in our society.

The teachers' financial contribution through advertising in the last election, while legal and of some use, was only another salvo in the struggle between this teachers union and the current government. The return fire, is continuing to happen.

Murdock,

The government and Justice Brown are threatening ALL unions .. not just the BCTF. If the other unions (through BC Fed) do not join in this fight, then who's to say it won't reach further? What if the government tries to break the pulp mill workers' union or some other private sector union? I am sure that people in those unions wouldn't stand for union busting either. That is why there will be the general strike and rally in Victoria on Monday .. because the rights of every single British Columbian (particularly union members) are being threatened.

Norman Spector & Jack Munro are, in this instance, Nuts. Who the heck was trying to "overthrow the government" for heaven sake? How could all you clever posters let Norm get away with that?

That general strike is a very, very loud public request for civil rights and workers' rights to be honoured. It was the farthest thing imaginable from "overthrowing (for pete's sake) a democratically-elected government."

I bet such a stupid idea never entered the heads of any of the people involved. Cripes, that's so U.S. McCarthyish, so Commie-baiting, so ... stupid!

Sounds like teachers aren't even smart enough to understand that the courts run independently of the government. And these clowns are teaching my kids? What a bloody joke!

spedteacher,

I have just re-read your earlier posts, and I shall only ask:

"If you had the opportunity to run your own class, school, or learning business of your own; one where all the funds came from a public purse, but were directed thru parents who could choose who was to teach thier children, what methods, how many other children were with that child in the class, how many hours per day, days per months and all the other variables that come into the learning.

Would you run such a learning business?"

If your answer is yes, then it is time to re-think your unfettered support for the union movement.

If you think that no-one should be allowed to operate such a system by any means, and your views are the majority, then I am sad to see so many children subjected to such a tyranny.

The government and Justice Brown are threatening ALL unions .. not just the BCTF. If the other unions (through BC Fed) do not join in this fight, then who's to say it won't reach further? What if the government tries to break the pulp mill workers' union or some other private sector union? I am sure that people in those unions wouldn't stand for union busting either. That is why there will be the general strike and rally in Victoria on Monday .. because the rights of every single British Columbian (particularly union members) are being threatened.

Exactly, I am very proud and honoured to read your posts spedteacher.

Murdock writes:
Now we ask do we have a 'general strike' in BC due to an EDUCATING MONOPOLY that the teachers have. With no large-scale alternative parents are feeling trapped, only those who have embraced homeschooling or private schools sense the alternatives. The majority feel they have no options.

Because public education is a great convenience to parents, many think that it is a service to parents. It is not. It is a service to the students, who will grow up to become citizen-proprietors of a democratic nation.

The present voters decide through their representatives on what the public schools should teach, and under what conditions. Parents are among those voters (or should be), but they are not the only ones with a say in education. All of us, if we value our democratic institutions, have a stake in how we educate the next generation.

Public education is simply what the electorate chooses to make available to all children. If parents prefer home schooling or private education, that's their privilege. It's no different from choosing to pay for private music lessons or math tutoring.

But the electorate has every right to decide on the qualifications and working conditions of teachers, staff and administrators. They do so through their elected representatives, and if the representatives do a good job, everything goes well and we get a good, sustainable system for a reasonable price.

Funding education involves negotiations with everyone from the teachers to the companies that sell carpeting and roofing. The teachers don't monopolize education any more than the roofers do.

Having just finished reading this entire thread...

spedteacher: Awesome post!

Frank: Thanks for the laughs at poindexter's expense :)

nemesis: Your login name makes me imagine a person very similar to the 'comic book guy' in The Simpsons and your ability to simplify complex issues down to the level of 'puke' only reinforces the image. One day even you could be as superior a citizen as 90.5% of BC teachers are... Dare to dream!

erwin: Thanks for the hearty laughs your posts have given me! I find such open naivette very amusing and your ability to believe right wing, trickle down economic bs is endearing. I bet you even think that the US went to Iraq to get those elusive wmd's. lol!

working person: I too have owned my own business with a few employees and I managed to treat them all with respect. I find it amazing that you can not seem to see the contradiction at play in THIS case. Here's my suggestion: Start treating your employees with the same contempt that the Liberals are treating teachers and see how long you keep them or how long they continue without a union! Please put your money where your ideology is and share the results with us. Betting you won't though.

rtbwa: I only hope that your children grow up to be more socially aware and intelligent than at least one of their parents.

jim: The point that you missed was that your moral high ground requires you to throw that press conference at the local police station whether you were caught speeding or not. Of course, as with working person above, I'm betting you don't have that much courage.

crawford: Couldn't have rebutted that 'monopoly' nonsense any better than you so I won't try:)

Looks like there's a new member in the 'blather for idiots' club. Bruce R will fit in quite well, and provide lots of laughs too.

See nemesis you type and all I seem to read is "I must hurry back to my comic book store, where I dispense the insults rather than absorb them."

When the BCTF took out anti-liberal advertisements in the last election, they took a chance. It was gutsy, but they lost. The majority of the electorate voted for the Campbell government. I didn't, but that is irrelevant.

What else can the BCTF expect from the Liberals now, except Nasty Dirty Politics? It is called Payback, or if you prefer, Political Football.

Too bad that the educational system and the kids in it just happen to be the ball. Too bad there is no referee in this game.

In some countries, there are professions that must be above the law, in the sense that police officers are not allowed to express political opinions in public. Nor can they run for political office.

Labour disputes have been settled historically with union and management in confrontation.
Law enforcement, the health care professions and teaching are a special case. The people who enter those professions expect special treatment and status, and they deserve it. There ought to be an independent arbitrator, with binding power, who determines the pay and work conditions for these professions.

Leaving the negotiations to the current members of the BCTF, and the current political party in Victoria, is clearly not in the long term interests of the public they both serve. The BCTF needs to back away from party politics and the Liberal need to back away from the educational system.

Now, where is my cane. Both parties need a good thrashing. Bend over Gordon. You're next, Jinny. What a thought!

'What else can the BCTF expect from the Liberals now, except Nasty Dirty Politics? It is called Payback, or if you prefer, Political Football.'
Well, my friend, they way I see it, you just endorsed an Afghan state of affairs in our fair province! If being elected simply gives you a mandate to lord it over all the people you have grudges against, revel in your power, as in 'it's our turn now' (Gordo on first being elected premier), then we don't have democracy, we have war lord rule. We get to choose between the greater/lesser evils according to our imaginings of how high we each are on the ladder and who we think our guys are, but that's all. Nobody takes it seriously or try anything fancy like community-building; get real! It's all about getting in there to the table, sticking your sucking tube into the soup terrine and suck for all you're worth, never mind who doesn't get fed. They could just have cronied up with the right people, or played 'the game' better. This is North America, the land of opportunity. For some. For others, well - some have to make up the substrate for those opportunities, right?

Betrayal of Public Education:

It is a matter of trust. Sadly, Campbell's word means nothing to teachers, nurses, social workers, seniors, ferry workers, the poor,and now children. Campbell will open the doors to offshore private for profit educational management companies. "Just what you were after right"? He will offer you tax rebates if you put your kid in a private school, provided you have money. Lets look at what the Mike Harris government did in Ontario. Campbell has Harris's old play book. 8 years from now you'll hardly recognize the public school system in BC. Public education will be gone in exchange for profit/private schools. Good you say!!! Get rid of those “f” teachers !! They're the ones causing all the problems in BC anyway. I wish your province luck. You'll need it in finding cheaper and better teachers. As a teacher for the past 15 years and under constant attack the entire time, I feel I have been left with no other choice than to put my house up on the market and get out of Dodge. You've sold out all your natural resources and now you're selling off your own people. Who in their right mind would ever want to come here to teach? Americans, Japanese, and South Africans, that's who. Your education system will be run by Japanese and American corporations. Your teachers will be paid by the hour. They will have little or no benefits, and certainly no rights. The public schools still left standing will take on the American look and feel of an inner city ghetto. Perfect!!! You say. The sooner the better. For those of you idiots who love to run teachers into the ground - offer a better solution. Where's your vision? Tell me about your better idea. I'm all ears.

Dear Dorothy:
Comparing BC to Afganistan is beneath contempt. No one is getting murdered here, no one is asking female teachers to cover their faces and (lest we forget) there is no U.S. Naval Reserve officer by the name of Harry Schmidt dropping bombs on Canadian soldiers on night manoeuvres. So don't get carried away on your keyboard.

This strike began a long time ago, when BCTF set itself up as the public conscience by campaigning against the Liberals in the last election and is now reaping the consequences. Was there a province-wide vote on the use of BCTF funds for that purpose?

I do not support the Liberals - I hold them in contempt. The BCTF on the other hand is in contempt of court, and it is no longer about who makes the laws, but about who exerts law and order. The sequential, incremental sentencing of the BCTF is novel and creative.

For the BCTF to withdraw their services when there is no alternative, and the consequences affect so many people, is a right, but for how long? The teachers made a point, and now it is time to fight with different tactics. A Work-to-Rule, with no extra-curricular activities would be just as effective as an all-out strike. Parents would still be able to go to work.

To date, the BCTF is just another union exerting their industrial power above and beyond reason. An independent arbitrator has just made a recommendation. The teachers will be back at work on Monday, less two weeks pay. So who really won? No one. Who lost? The kids.

Time to get back to basics, like the three R's;
"Rights", "Responsibilities" and "Respect".

Incidentally, I still have one of those "Mr Perfect Goes to Hawaii" buttons with Gordon Campbell's mugshot from the drunken driving incident. I would be happy to mail it to you. It says just about everything that needs to be said about our current premier.

Class sizes should reduced, and teachers need more help with learning disabled students. Anyone who doesn't understand that must be drunk. Better sober up for the next election.

Wow fish... way to be on both sides of the same fence!

Why in hell should the province as a whole have any say in how the BCTF spends any of its money? Perhaps we should all have a vote on how you spend yours?

The BCTF is probably the most democratic organization in this province and the money spent on education was decided by the executive committee which is demcratically elected. Why do you hate democracy?

I have to wonder what kind of world you want to live in where people that speak out against a government's record deserve to be criminalized in revenge.

The problem with working-to-rule and stopping extra-curricular activities is that that inevitably loses support for teachers from parents. It just happens over a longer period of time. However, that may be the only option now.

As for who really won or lost, well the kids didn't lose anything. They got a couple of weeks off, so what. Provincial Exams can be rescheduled as can the rest of the school year if necessary and if we read about how 'inconvenient' that would be for parents to reschedule holidays and similar nonsense we'll know exactly how 'essential' education is.

edit: third paragraph... replace education with advertising... oops!

Bruce:
You got my point - sort of. I don't think either side has anything to be proud of in the BCTF strike. The province has no say in the way the BCTF spends its own money, but the question is whether the BCTF members had a say or not. The executive did not put the election spending issue to their members to vote on, correct? Therefore they took an action not specifically covered in the union rules - one with dire repercussions.

The kids who have to take provincial exams nest year would disagree with you that they lost nothing. Unless your are saying is that the education they get is worthless in the first place.

Speaking out against the government is fine - I do it all the time. Defying a court ruling is another matter altogether.

There is something called "The tyranny of the majority" which means that we all get to vote once. Then we have to live with the collective decision.

There were people who, quite rightly said that the last NDP government was not voted for by a majority of the electorate. There are people who think the liberals are doing things illegally. Like it or not - and I don't - they are the government.

Neither you, nor I and certainly not the BCTF have the right to fly in the face of the last election. Stop trying to rewrite history.

That is what makes me so angry about BC politics. Everybody thinks they are above the law. The BCTF has 500,000 reasons to know otherwise. Protest loudly and protest often, but do it within the law. Any other approach is stupid. Just like the premier of a Canadian province drinking and driving in Hawaii, it sends the wrong message.

Who actually is getting the wrong message? The parents of the international student who pay $10,000.00 a year to the school districts to send their kids to Canadian schools. Do they get a refund? Has anyone considered them, or are they just a bunch of insignificant foreigners caught up in a domestic dispute?

Fish-counter: Beautifully articulated! Thank you.

What does happen to a kid who spends two weeks in school. If they don't lose anything by not attending, why do we sent them there?
Thank you Crawford, for the following reminder:

Open and informative conversation about public education will result in "better educated" stakeholders. This can only add value to the whole system.

Well, Fish-Counter, I don't think I disagree with you nearly as much as I do jim and his crew but here's the thing...

The advertising done by the BCTF was done to educate the people of this province of the state of education in this province. It would not have mattered who was currently in power the adds would have been the same had they done the same crappy job as the liberals had done. I will ask a friend of mine who knows something more about this whether or not the advertising campaign was voted on at the AGM.

As for whether the kids were hurt or not... well way to NOT read the whole post.

I answered that dilemma in the last paragraph. It is simply a matter of rescheduling, big deal. International students may have a week less of spring break and an extra week at the end... so what? If they are already spending that much to send their kids to school here a bit more won't make much difference (the bit more being necessary for whatever rent/food costs there are for that extra week at the end of the year). AGAIN provincial exams can be rescheduled.

I know this isn't a difficult concept so why are you and neighbor continuing to make an issue out of nothing?

Now, if we were talking about an amount of time that could NOT be made up before next September I would understand the two of you griping about this but, so far at least, we're not.

Finally, that last quote about 'negotiation with the roofers and carpeters' being equivalent to negotiations with the teachers in those roofed and carpeted classrooms... seriously, put down the crack pipe and get some help. If teachers don't monopolize the education system more than the roofers do then that might explain the problems the education system is having right now. Of course, the reverse is also true, teachers shouldn't have much say in how a school is roofed.

Bruce:
Thanks for the reply. A good argument has at least two sides. I respect your views and your right to express them.

However, you seem to feel that the lives of your students revolve around school, in the sense that they can reschedule their year, based on the school timetable. This speaks to the fact that teachers lead a sheltered existence. I work with dozens of high school students every year in my work, many of them are already balancing on a knife edge. Half of the them come from broken homes, most of them have to work to buy clothes, and sometimes food and rent, and their lives are a scheduling nightmare. Having to do make up classes is a significant challenge.

As for the international students, correct me if I am wrong, but:

The standard tuition fee is $10,000.00 per year. If there are 1,000 of them (probably a conservative estimate) in the province, that amounts to $10 million per year. These funds allow the school districts to fund programs. BC is not the only province to offer education to international students. Alberta and Washington can easily take every student BC has next year, if our system breaks down. This is the most direct way the BC education system actually competes for revenue.

But please understand me: I have no love for the liberals. If I seem to be on the fence, that is because I am a firmly middle-of-the-road, dead-centre politically inclined individual, and I am sick to my stomach of watching extremists to left and right alike destroying BC with their entrenched and implacable views. It is too bad that there is no credible centre-political party.

We either have a convicted drunk driver or a fast-cat fanatic in Victoria, with nothing in-between. And both are hooked on gambling, as a source of revenue. But that is another story...

Fish-Counter: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how easy it is for kids to reschedule their lives.

However, I was a small business owner heavily involved with Big Brothers/Big Sisters before I became a teacher and I'm in my first year now at age 38. I am well aware of what kids lives are like both inside and outside of school. The reason I quit the business part was two-fold, changes in the forest industry made the job redundant and, frankly, I was tired of making hundreds of forestry maps that had a shelf life of about a year before being filed in the trash due to being out of date. So much for living a 'sheltered' life.

As for our education system breaking down to the point where parents from other countries feel they shouldn't send there kids here... well that's pretty much what the liberals are trying to do and what the BCTF is trying to stop.

btw, in my community, and in my classes I know of several students that were going ot be gone for two weeks to go hunting. So I guess there are kids on both sides of this issue as well. Not all of them are in such difficult scheduling situations.

Perhaps we could talk about the majority or average student instead of the minor exceptions?

The teachers may have played right into the hands of this horrible Liberal government. We may not be going back on Monday. The teachers may decide to take a stand and fight for what they believe is right. They will be hit with daily million dollar fines. They will hand over all 20 million dollars to the Liberals. The Liberals will use the money to build a highway to the Olympics. The Liberals will decertify the BCTF. They will privatize education in BC. They will fine any teacher on a picket line and take way their license to teach, and destroy the average teacher's career. But to most of you out there who voted this government in for the 2nd time, this is wonderful news. However, there is one thing you don't understand. I worked for one year in the private american for profit school system. I know how it works. Here's what you get. You will see incredible teacher turn over. You will see classes being canceled because there will be no one to teach courses. You will see classes with 45 and 50 students. You will see teachers without the qualifications you would have with the old system. You will see the end of the College of Teachers. You will see teachers as wage earners with little in the name of benefits. You will see teachers being fired because the employer simply doesn't like them(never mind whether they can teach or not.) You will have administrators coming in from Arkansas, Texas, and North Carolina. You will see all the profits going back to these states. You will witness a disaster and I will be in Alberta laughing every day as I read the news. You have earned your reputation as Canada's goofy hillbillies. Congrats.!

Spedteacher

You clearly have not been paying attention to the situation as it developed.

The BC Liberals, while facing an NDP that has union domination of its structure, have tried to press ahead in making BC an investment friendly locale. Their methods are deplorable, and I do not support them for that, but the aim is clear, unless and until BC becomes a 'stable' investment friendly locale we will continue to have less and less opportunity. We will continue to be trapped in the 'drawing water and cutting wood' that our past has been. The continued UNION actions that are taking place ILLEGALLY are only making BC appear UNSTABLE.

Continued instablility will only guarantee our long-term failure.

So long as the UNIONS are willing to fight using the current militant approach they will find ANY government against them (I note that the BCTF was in conflict with the NDP also).

Good on the BC Fed for cutting ties with the lunatics and hard-nosed CRIMINALS running the BCTF.

murdock: You appear to be intimately associated with instability. The so called criminals running the BCTF have suggested we vote yes to Ready's report.

Doesn't quite fit with your theory very well does it?

As far as instability goes, since when does the education system having negotiation issues make any difference to a company thinking about investing here? Certainly you don't think that would keep them from wanting to extract whatever resources this province still has to offer. Well probably YOU do but that's the nature of mental instability.

Your note taking abilities also need some work since at least when the NDP enacted legislation it was after discussing what the education system needed with teachers first. It might have been an imposed contract but at least there was something far closer to negotiation involved than what we have going on today.

As far as a 'militant' approach is concerned... get a grip, they've been attempting to negotiate a deal for over a year with the government stonewalling the whole time. What recourse was there? I guess perhaps you have gotten improvements to your working conditions by kissing ass but I don't think teachers should have to do the same.

The BCTF should consider appealing the $500,000 fine. Instead of the money being given to some charity by court order, it should be invested in the education system. Books, field trips, a course in coflict resolution, whatever. The kids should get SOME benefit from the last two week's Shenanigans. After all, they paid the price.

It could even be donated to MADD. Apparently, there are people in BC who need education. It may even benefit our premier directly.