What a bunch of dopes living up there. It's their loss. Wal-Mart doesn't care.They already employ 1.4 million people directly. Who needs a bunch of IWA and CUPE workers in a hick town like Campbell River. How stupid can you get.

Ron, what's with the contempt for the will of the people, isn't that what conservatives cherish so much?

Verso; I am glad that you admire my coservative values so much.
Let's remember there is already a Wal-Mart in Courtenay. Campbell River will loose out economically as all those Saturday shoppers make Courtenay their destination for shopping. Spewing pollution out of the exhaust pipes as they do.
I feel soory for any job seekers that have now been denied a place of employment.
What a bunch of idiot's.

Mallwart gave Vancouverites a taste of the lengths they will go to to have developments approved. They had a very eco-friendly design, using underground hot water for heating, rooftop rain collection to collect toilet-flushing water, etc and still didn't get approved, because of the disruption to the neighbourhood their store would likely cause.
It is really too bad that BC and Canada have been so slow to address First Nations claims and grievances. Mallwart has attempted to exploit this history for gain. But as the process has shown in Campbell River, the solution will NOT be resolved by relying on American corporations to enrich First Nations here or elsewhere. That will be likelier to happen if we stop allowing mining and forestry companies free plunder over land that is in dispute and negotiate on equal terms.

"Campbell River will loose out economically as all those Saturday shoppers make Courtenay their destination for shopping."

Or they'll shop locally and support small businesses. Seems like there were a lot of people who genuinely care about local businesses. I can't see why they would abandon them now.

As a First Nations woman who lives in Campbell River I am extremely happy that the Wal-Mart proposal was turned down. Our people once had a proud heritage of living in unison and harmony with all living things (including rivers) but in this modern age it seems that, more and more often, we are selling out to the highest bidder and denying our own traditional values. Twenty years from now, when the Campbell River is still as beautiful as it is today, it will be even more clear that council made the right decision on July 4,2005.
The chief of the Campbell River Indian Band says that, no matter what, the estuary land will always belong to them. I would counter that the estuary, like the river, belongs to us all-in trust for our children and their children.
As for the comments from Ron Erwin, I am curious about a couple of things. First of all, if Wal-Mart "does'nt care" about us, as you say, perhaps that is precisely why their application was turned down.Who needs another heartless, soulless corporation in their midst?Secondly,judging from the many(mainly negative) comments you have made on various threads throughout this website I wonder why you spend so much time here as it seems to piss you off so much? It can't be good for your health. Not that I care, of course; this hick is just nosy.

Ron Erwin states that he "feel[s] soory[sic] for any job seekers that have now been denied a place of employment". Geez Ron, what happened? In the last couple of hours you started caring about workers and labourers? I mean, in your first post you question "[w]ho needs a bunch of IWA and CUPE workers in a hick town like Campbell River"?

Oh, wait, now I get it Ron. You'd love to see people work for 6 bucks an hour instead of actually earning a little bit more and having a few benefits.

Also from your first post: "How stupid can you get"? I think Ron, you've ansered that question for us all!

To Chita; I hope my comments are not seen as negative generally. Yes they will seem negative to you because I don't think like you.
I appreciate The Tyee, how boring it would be to be only coversing with like minded people.
I don't consider the views I read from you liberal people as negative, just a little misguided.
I still believe the turning down of Wal-Mart as being a silly partisan action driven more by ideology than by logic. I am sure unions put out a ton of misinformation on this matter. To bad the citizens of Campbell River were sucked in by this B.S.

Please, Ron Erwin, if you don't like the decision handed down and the obvious reasons for it, at least quit trying to obscure the issue.

While I am sure a lot of union people would prefer that Walmart never darken their towns, my read of what stopped this project was the very fact, spelled out in both of Dodd's stories that the estuary is seen as more important today and into the future than access to yet another big box.

It was E.N.V.I.R.O.N.M.E.N.T.A.L. Ron.

But if unions did put money and effort into the campaign to stop Walmart then I say thank you very much and keep up the good work.

This idea of ideologically driven decisions you raise is quite interesting. I would suggest if you have ever been to a public hearing over one of these stores you will no doubt have heard lines like "well isn't this a capitalists country. It's free-enterprise" or "we can't interfere in business decisions"

Tell me, why can a business walk into a community and demand they get to open shop when the vast majority of residents are clearly opposed to the project?

City councils can interfere in anything occurring or about to occur in their communities. All it takes is a willingness to put you citizens wishes first and a bit of intestinal fortitude to tell the big money guys how it's going to be.

I don't know where you live, but I would imagine you might get quite out of shape if someone planned to open a wrecking yard, an escort agency or a liquor store next door to you.

It's quite clear from opponents of Walmart in Campbell River that many would prefer any of the three other potentials I mentioned over Walmart.

to; embraun

What you make is up to you. At lease it should be, unless you belong to a union that limits your income.
I know that's kinda hard for you to grasp.

Gee Ron, those Campbell River hicks must be really stupid, as you say; turning down sub-$10/hour jobs, cheap sweat-shop goods from China, and a beautiful big-box store gracing the edge of the Tyee Pool. Boy are they dumb....

$10 a hour jobs, hell try $6 a hour! Wallmart would never pay $10 a hour! Our friends to the South are waking up to the fact that Wallmart destroys business, undercutting price until the local businesses go bankrupt, then jack up prices to screw the customers.

Same is for the 10 cent an hour 'made in China' sweatshop goods; when a store first opens, the goods quality is too good to be true, great value, but a year later, just watch the quality diminishes big time!

The good people of Campbell River deserve applause for not allowing this parasite business from setting up shop!

chita, nice to read your comments. Why are those council members so anxious to hit on the estuary in particular? Are there no other opportunities besides commercial outlets?

I don't see what's wrong with using ideology to make a decision. Don't we elect politicians who agree with and represent our ideology?

It isn't all about about numbers and zoning. It's about building livable prosperous communities. Low-wage jobs that destroy local businesses and change traffic patterns don't do that.

Allan - you are so right - it was completely about the environment - the location. I think only a couple of folks brought up the union thing and one of them was a union bigwig from Nanaimo.

Good to see the post from Chita. I hope this whole thing doesn't destroy any relationship the Band has with the city and that they can come up with something that works for all.

Thank you riverliver. There is much to say about human rights, labour rights and a pile of other issues you may raise about Walmart. But why, when you have such a clear and obvious issue as the environment.
Coalitions form, labour, small business, neighbours, community health groups, etc.

What's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing, eh?

Given the nature of the workforce in Campbell River, they would almost surely unionize at some point to resist the poverty and exploitation which seems to be Walmart's M.O. wherever they do 'business'

After which Walmart would instantly close the store as they did in Quebec, abandon the town, and leave behind a useless, ugly and unusable monstrosity that would continue to pollute for decades.

On the Pro side here, I see dogmatic adherance to discredited theory. On the Anti side, a conviction that good and evil exist, and that evil must be opposed.

It saddens me that native interests ally themselves with the greatest proponent of the forces who have traditionally caused their cultures the most harm; the true believers in the absolute power of money over all.

I was in Campbell River yesterday when the decision was announced.

Here's what is sad about Campbell River...no one could tell me where to go to get fresh local food. There are dozens of fishboats all over the Discovery Passage, there are oyster farms all over Desolation Sound, clam beaches up and down the Island, wild salmon teeming in the waters and nowhere to eat anything but farmed fish.

Campbell River is messing with it's future big time. The downtown is on the verge of just collapsing as the malls and big boxes steal the local heart. Turning down WalMart was a great environmental move, and it may just have saved to local economy as well.

Anywhere that beast shows up, the local disappears. In a town that is already so quick to sell its unique character letting WalMart in would be suicide.

When the pro-WM voice shows up at local election time to decry "anti-business" politicans, just remember who took the decision to protect local economies. It wasn't the crowd from Arkansas.

Much appreciate your input to this story, Chita.

Ron Erwin is such a pugnacious right wingnut and bootlicker for the corporate ruling class, more often than not US capitalism, that no one need or should take his views too seriously here, I think. Or does. :-) He would have us all working for minimum wage in the Wal Marts of the world, of which he thinks it is his mission in life to ideologically convince us. (It is current ruling class dominant capitalism that is restricting our options and incomes, not unions, ever more so since the decline of these unions, and since controls on the greed of Big Capital began to be systematically dismantled from the time of Bill Bennet Jr.)

Ron Erwin's extremist Neocon view of capitalism has already been a demonstrated failure. It's there around us ever more, every day. It's why we are all in the deteriorating economic straits that we are, as a society and as peoples. The only one's really prospering are the paper shufflers, the buyers and sellers of the stuff, in the rapacious "global capital marketplace."

Good on Campbell River, both its Native and White citezens, for what they have done for the real economy of their own town, and the natural values of their environment. Oh yes, and its unions. Makes me proud to be a labour unionist.

And just in closing, I especially understand something of the dillemma this must have posed for the Native people's of Campbell River, I am sure. Natives have largely been shut out of the capitalist dominant economy, and prevented at ever turn from re-devloping their own, I know. So they have a special need, over and above what the White majority of capitalist society is suddenly coming to get a wee bit of a taste of in these times. And they are the youngest and fastest growing demographic in the population, which needs to be continually underscored. (On tv the other day, CBC I believe, it was reported that the majority family population now has only 1.5 children, whereas Natives across the country are averaging 7.)

The point being, all of which makes the position Natives in Campbell River took on Wal Mart, all the more admirable.

Wal-Mart doesn't pay 6 to 10 dollars per hour period. They pay more than that. But regardless, if they payed $25.00 per hour you would all still be bitching. I am saddened to see all those already employed with an $18.00 CUPE job decrying Wal-Mart. What a bunch of losers. I know Campbell River will regret what they got sucked into by socialist B.S.
I don't think of this as a native vs. non-native conflict. It is what it always is, an ideological war of words that the left is losing and hopefully will soon realize this and work to make life better for us citizens with a new and fresh approach.
But I doubt that they have the intelligence or balls to step out of their liberal box.

I think Ron must have been fired from a CUPE job to keep bringing up that union. You think Wallymart pays more than $10.00 per hour??Smoke another one.

Rather than quoting you and filling additional space with your illogical nonsense Ron Erwin, I will ask you to go back and read your post above.

It is a literal ball of confusion and just plain ignorance held together by a thick ugly paste of anger-injected ideology.

Are you ranting about the left or the liberals?

Don't like we on the left so first you call us socialists, then you demean us by calling us liberals.

I suspect you could insult us again by calling us conservatives and you'd still feel we're left of you.

Can you enlighten us as to where Walmart pays its store staff more than $10 an hour and, while you're at it, explain to us why someone earning $18 an hour in a civic job would welcome the instability Walmart brings into communities?

Life is just a bit too complicated these days to simply boil down to the people you love and the people you hate Ron.

Get over it. Walmart set itself up with its arrogant expectation of getting what it wanted because it's Walmart, just like you do.

You are one angry man Ron Erwin.

...and it wouldn't have anything to do with preserving the character of a heritage river--one of the most famous Pacific salmon streams in the world--would it?

Perhaps Ron thinks that blame should be laid squarely at the feet of that notable Campbell River socialist Roderick Haig-Brown, who taught locals the value of the river in their own backyard, and whose heritage-site home lies just upstream from the failed big-box site.

Allan you must of shut the grumpy old man for good.Bye, Bye Ron

Campbell River rocks, it took 17 hrs of public meetings and massive opposition but they did it. The people of CR made it impossible for council to force Wal Mart on them. BC has 36 Wal Mart's and they really wanted 37 and 38 in Van and CR but they were stopped. Some basic facts for poor Ron who loves the chase to the bottom and some Mc Jobs.

1) Wal Mart limits choice, pretty soon you have no alternative shoe stores, pet stores, furniture stores, electronic or music stores, hardware stores, gardening centers, and small convenience stores. Pretty soon you have one store Wal Mart. Enjoy your new choices. Usually low quality cheap crap made in sweat shops . I know this , I live near a Wal Mart and they are like a parasite on the urban independents.

2) Wal Mart is a category killer, their model is sell products at a loss until others are not longer in business, even giants like Toys r US and A@B Sound are going bankrupt and cannot compete.

3) Wal Mart is the largest employer and richest company in the world which pays absolute poverty wages to its workers and will shut down if unionized. They are 6 times larges than their closest competitor. They set the model and force others to drive down wages in the ever growing retail sector. Which of course creates more poor people who become their customers. Hence the race to the bottom.

So congrats CR and Ron, well we love Ron even though he is a very flawed man.

Again all above ranting about Wal-Mart is a bunch of crap. Take Abbottsford as an example. In the early 1990's their business community was almost dead. There was a lone KMART that was floundering. Wal-Mart took over the space and opened up an outlet. Soon a Superstore opened up across the street. A call cenre ( oh how evil ) moved in with a couple of hundred employees. The nearby health supply store doubled there employees from 5 to 10. The positive stories abound and Abbottsford is now very viable. This is what happens when a Wal-Mart moves into town. Good things, not bad things. They offer opportunities to there associates that would not be available without them.
And Allen, liberals ( not BC Liberal party ) but liberals generally are socialists, so there is no confusion with my arguments.

Good piece, Stuart, though I did gag on this one. :-) Speak for yourself when it comes to loving Ron, eh. :-) I can't "fake it" that much. I despise the critter.

It's time for knowing who your enemies are, and being honest about it.

To Coyote
Hey, with your pleasant personality I bet you would make an excellent greeter at Wal-Mart.
Let me know if you need a reference. I am sure you wouldn't know anyone else that would recommend you.

ron; don't expect allan to know the difference between a liberal and a b.c. liberal. from what i can tell he's a 21 year old pothead who is only here b/c his socialist/communist/unionist high school teachers indoctrinated him into the world of protest and whining. obviously they didn't do a very good job at it either, as usual.

It's all ok and well Ron. You can always stop at Wal-Mart in Courteney when you travel to Campbell River for your outdoor recreation. I would'nt want to deny you your opportunity to get twelve cents off your underwear or keep you from collecting another "B" movie at a discount. BTW... all you Wal-Marters look and dress the same. So much for variety.

Her look what the cat dragged in. sirjohna has found a friend in Ron.
Misery loves company, I can see it now sirjohna and Ron on a road trip to the closerst
Neigbourhood Wal Mart.
1) First they can bypass all their local stores(the ones still barley hanging on) and head straingt for the 20 acre parking lot. Drive around for 15 min to find a spot.

2) Then they can find all the cheap crap priced just right for the neo con, subsibived by low wages no benifits and sweat shop prices. Local tax breaks and cororate welfare, the US Wal Marts take about 2.5 billion a yr in corpoate hand outs and tax breaks.

3) Then they can line up for 25 min or more under the brutal lighting and 50 secureity cameras. To save a buck to two.
LOL,
4) Maybe they will stop at the instore McDonalds as you know some losers still go to McDonalds . Yep then they can get back into the car and drive across town with gas prives at 101.9 per litre and pat themselves on the back.
Sorry folks the picture is just to much fun, any Ron and sirjohna are just silly little boys who having a temper
tantrum right now. SORRY BUT THE PEOPLE OF CR GOT IN THE WAY

Her look what the cat dragged in. sirjohna has found a friend in Ron.
Misery loves company, I can see it now sirjohna and Ron on a road trip to the closest
Neighborhood Wall Mart.
1) First they can bypass all their local stores(the ones still barley hanging on) and head straight for the 20 acre parking lot. Drive around for 15 min to find a spot.

2) Then they can find all the cheap crap priced just right for the neo con, subsidized by low wages no benefits and sweat shop prices. Local tax breaks and corporate welfare, the US Wal Marts take about 2.5 billion a yr in corporate hand outs and tax breaks.

3) Then they can line up for 25 min or more under the brutal lighting and 50 security cameras. To save a buck to two.
LOL,
4) Maybe they will stop at the in store McDonalds as you know some losers still go to McDonalds . Yep then they can get back into the car and drive across town with gas prices at 101.9 per litre and pat themselves on the back.
Sorry folks the picture is just to much fun, any Ron and sirjohna are just silly little boys who having a temper
tantrum right now. SORRY BUT THE PEOPLE OF CR GOT IN THE WAY

Ignore the first post, maybe the tyee editor can take out the first post. Sorry folks having to much fun.

...and you are soooooo funny too stuey-boy. why would such idiocy cause a temper tantrum from anyone? fyi stew; i've never been in a walmart, and i don't eat at mcdonald's, nor do my kids. but a real nice try anyway pal. love to see lesser-lites show their true colours.

so this is where jerkboy is hiding

Time to clear the air...I obviously don't give a damn what sirjerkoff thinks but I don't want to offend those that feel my crude posts aimed at sirjerkboy are homophobic. They were not. I ask you to reread the posts and keep in mind the following: I believe that many openly gay people are vastly superior people compared to the average joe. I subscribe to the "two spirit" belief of many First nations people who see GLBT's as highly evolved.
On the other hand you have many gays, whether in or out, who, for a variety of reasons, are deeply disturbed or otherwise conflicted. Surejerksoffalot is one of these sad bastards. While most of the inner turmoil that these people suffer is the result of hypocritical intolerance and persecution by straight society, it is hard to feel compassion towards creeps like jerkboy and others who champion right wing philosophies. No doubt a form of Stockholm Syndrome is partly responsible for these sorry assholes supporting ideologies that are inherently detrimental to people of their sexual persuasion...obviously there is major denial at play here...but when they behave antisocially I believe they need harsh reality checks.
I'll let that sink in before I offer detailed insights into my assertions that sirjerkoff is an inbred, homosexual pedophile.
Some constructive feedback would be nice (not from you sirjerkoff) or maybe you don't appreciate a new comer to this site taking shots at your pet whackjob.

sirjohna, hey their is hope for you. Now tell us why you don't go to McD's or Wal Mart, their the perfect examples of success in our society . So why don't you go. Tell us, we may have something in common. Come on , don't be shy.

Wow, sleepswithangels take a pill, not sure of your prior post but lighten up. Whenever anyone makes assumptions of anykind then they are leaving themselves open to explain those comments. I judge folks on individual acts not race , religion or color. We are our deeds and nothing more.

Well, I think it's now very clear how intelligent the arguments against Wal-mart are. Just read a few of the obove comments and see how it confirms their arguments are soley those of socialist losers with no logical point to make about anything.
I am sure happy that they are quickly declining in numbers and not likely to propogate any time soon. Thank God

Yes, sirjohna, 21 and laughing my aging belly off reading the pathetic drival you call debate.

Hey, here's an idea. Start debating with your knew-found buddy Ron Erwin and then the both of you can come back when you have something to discuss that actually reflects the issue we are talking about.

how correct you are stuart...I fully intend to explain in detail. I would like to see some more feedback first..there is no rush...except those with kids might want to be more vigilant...sirjerkboy is still at large
I also have to make sure that my written analysis can be understood even by dim witted troglodytes like ron erwin

Ron Erwin wrote:

Finally come full-circle have you Ron? You've flogged your dubious points about the economics of WalMart to death, and are now resorting to the equivalent of your first post('dopes', 'hicks'), pointing fingers in the high-school hallway and shouting 'losers!'.

Those of us who think that the store was rejected en masse because of its proximity to a heritage salmon river are still waiting for your reply. Please enlighten us as to how this is a socialist conspiracy against WalMart, rather than a common-sense citizens' rejection of a big-box environmental blight, situated in a ridiculous location for a town with a tourism-based economy.

deeby..I hope your're not holding your breath
For those who are puzzled at my rants against sirjerkoff (SJO) and others, I plan to post an in depth analysis soon...in the meantime rest assured that I am not yet done with revealing the thinking behind my observations and will also subsequently link their twisted psyches with mainstream neocon ideology....in other words, I intend to show how neocon politics attracts the perverted scum of society.

You may not want to waste your time , Sirjohn and others are really only here is disrupt intelligent debate in a valuable fee forum. It scares them and they want to disrupt any positive action. I do read the posts but only really respond to new ideas. I will listen but don't get sucked in into the drain with them. Name calling empty head fools. Their just like the folks in the US who vote against their own economic interest . Less money in the economy and cheap labor drive us down not up.They all want people with money to dive the economy but feel low paying jobs are the answer. So let them be and don't get upset over names etc, feel sorry for them , the system makes allot of folks sick.

In other words...ignore them and maybe they will go away. That tactic may well work on this site and there are many here who wish it were so..and I don't blame them for wanting this forum to be refuge from the insanity of neocon ideology. After all, that insanity is poisoning the planet in countless literal and figurative ways and seems relentless. I do not intend to lie down and let these *&%(%#&% christian *&%&&@%*%#^ take over this country.
They need to be exposed for the trash they are.
I know there are many people who identify themselves as christians who, if they were able to grasp the depth of evil that personifies the neocon/fundamental christian alliance, would actively campaign against Harper and CCRAP and US imperialism because they are basically decent people and want what most of the folks on this site want. The reality is that many of these people have relinquished their ability for critical thinking and surrendered it to a cult like worship of church, state and mass media.

I rest my case. When you squeeze an orange you get orange juice.

All good points , I am just saying that to name call etc just devalues the forum. Just point out the flaws in their argument and more forward with actions on how to make things better. Lets build on the Victory's in CR and Vancouver and move this forward. No matter how flawed some people are they really believe that the status quo is serving them, so just show folks the benefits of doing the right thing. Be the change you want to see, doing the right things will always draw ridicule from those with no courage and vision. cheers.

See what I mean, some folks bring no value, don't waste energy . Don't feed bread to the dogs. Enjoy the victory.

words of wisdom for sure..thanks for the insight..I will still post my in depth analysis on SJO later as I have gone out on a limb and unlike the unaccountable right wing I intend to back up my observations

stuart; before you converse with sleeps you may want to read some of his earlier posts on 'bill c-38 passed' etc. this guy's a bonafide psycho who openly bashes homosexuals and other minorities etc. on this site. in fact he should be censured, as hombre was on the old format. as for your questions; i don't shop at wal-mart b/c it's not convenient for me and i don't eat at mcdonalds b/c i don't like the food. nothing to do with ideology, i assure you. i support the decisions of small towns regarding wal-mart's etc. as long as they are the decisions of the citizens of the town. to truck in activists from outside of the community is wrong, and it sounds like that may have happened in cr. perhaps not, as i understand it was a decision based on the site and the estuary, but i hope that the citizens got the outcome that THEY wanted.

i saw this kind of thing over at bc indymedia back in the day. trolls exist to poison the commons. thats their mission in life (who cares if theyre sad lonely losers or employed by fascist security forces or whatever corporation). there's 2 ways they suceed:

1. they get ignored. that can give the air of acceptability to their viewpoints, make them seem legitimate to newcomers.

2. they are successful in starting flame wars. this turns the whole site into a tedious circus that nobody wants to participate in anymore.

sleeps even if you prove beyond a logical doubt that the person is a flaming faggot, what does that get besides a little satisfaction for you? i doubt that you can open minds that way, that would take serious face to face psychiatry. that being said, the suspense is killing me. let it rip. but please try not to put yourself out there like that in the future.

the thing to do is to calmly point out where trolls are are posting plain old falsehoods. make sure that joe average skimming the responses has the facts available.

where there are only insults with no substance, then it's safe to ignore them. joe average can see that for what it is, and 'i know you are but what am i' won't make it any plainer only more depressing.

i'm really enjoying the diverse conversation here. if it devolves into everyone picking a category to be in and doing their best to intellectually destroy the enemy, then the trolls win and people like me leave and dont come back.

I just had to reply to sirjohna re: outside activists. The protests against situating Wal-Mart in the estuary was completely homegrown; the vast majority of CR residents spoke out against putting the mega store in such an environmentally sensitive area. We did not have to resort to bringing in outside activists because it was clear that it was up to us to protect the river. We definetely got the outcome WE wanted. Unfortunately the CR band was stuck defending an untenable position and as a result they are a little disgruntled but all their cries of racism and lost jobs will pass, just like everything else. Eventually maybe they will even see that the decision was not against them, but for the river. The citizens of CR should be proud of themselves for voicing their opinions and making democracy work. I know I am.

By all means..read the posts..SJO has such a tenuous grasp of reality and is in such a rage due to his cover being blown that he doesn't seem to understand that my attacks are aimed specifically at him..not at gays in general.
He is trying to deflect scrutiny away from himself by calling me a gay basher when I have done nothing of the sort. Sure..I think the would be MLA for Van-Burrard is a self loathing slimebag and I had some chuckles pairing him with our sirjerkoff but methinks SJO dost protest too much

i dont think sleeps sounds like a homophobe. he says above that he agrees with the ancient native viewpoint of people 'on that team' being blessed with a deeper spiritual connection to both sides of the human condition. that being said i dont remember the posts you refer to, so maybe its just fluff tossed in for cover.

to be more specific...I don't have a problem with anybody being GLB or T..I have clearly stated that I think SJO is an inbred, homosexual pedophile.
I have focused my analysis on his pedophilia and will also offer insights into my contention that he is inbred as well...and then I will wrap that up with a short treatise on how neocon/fundamental christian ideologies attract the scum of the earth

Yoiks!
Sirjohna - puleeze. As Chita says the protestors were real - many were seniors who have lived here since the 40's and have seen the devastation done to other waterfront areas in town. This place is small enuf that you know the names of the people and you know they're not from "away." In fact the "away" people were planted by Wal Mart. It was a common sense issue and strangely enuf the town councillors figured it out once they listened to the voices of the people.
chita - i hope you're right about the first nations folks and we can all work together to keep the river alive.

chita; thanks for the info. glad to hear it. the citizens of the community should always be able to make such decisions.
sleeps; anyone who owns half a brain and checks out your posts on the original 'wal-mart' thread and the 'bill c-38' thread will realize that you are one very sick and twisted individual who gets immense pleasure from bashing gays in a very crude and ruthless way. sickos like you should be censured from sites like these.

relax sirjerkboy..you and ron erwin are the only ones who qualify in the half brain department..though I think that particular measure is overly optomistic in your case.
the readers of these threads have got your number already and I intend to enhance their perception of your perverted proclivities

From where I stand, Walmart is one pretty good example of what is wrong with the world at present. A bunch of low-wage workers in some other part of the world are exploited to make a bunch of products that are transported to other parts of the world using fossil fuels, that are increasing in price by the day, and continue to deteriorate the world`s climate. Somehow geniuses like Ron Erwin think the big issue is unions holding back people`s earning power? What the f...?

Thank you Campbell River folks! The greed creeps are on the run! Let's start a trend and drive them off the whole planet. They can have the moon if they want...

I just read Ron Erwin's postings. He calls us "you liberal people". Sorry Ron, but this shows how politically ignorant you are. Undoubtedly there are some liberals here, bless 'em, but a hell of a lot of us are way more rad than that. The fact that you see any criticism of the staus quo as "liberal" means your viewpoints are formed by the right-wing media and have little connection with reality. Perhaps this is a good thing.

I would like to add one other thing. While it is very good that the people of CR were victorious, it is a shame that they have to struggle to keep out such monsters as Walmart. Any large scale - or controversial - development should have to undergo automatic popular approval, say by referendum or town meeting. In order to pass, such developments ought to require a two thirds majority. This would minimize political rigging.

It is indeed amazing that he can actually say that with a straight face, isn't it?

But like I say, Ron Erwin is taken seriously only by his own Brownshirt ilk.

Eh, I thought maybe Anarcho had moved on. Glad he has not.

Me, a "liberal"!?!? I am offended and take umbrage with that characterization!

That said, as Anarcho rushed to stroke their possibly ruffled feathers, "Bless 'em". It's just not me.

Better that though, than to be called a Brownshirt or a Neocon. :-)

Coyote

Bottom line, it was the protection of the river esturary that turned the tide. Perhaps if another location were identified, like Ironwood Mall (which is currently dead) a different decision would have been made.

Never the less, the socialist dogma present herein is unbelievable!

You want jobs, well investment is necessary! Preferably non-union!

Ignoring whether I even feel comfortable being characterized as a "socialist", as that has come to be understood, anymore than a "liberal", for the two are often overlapped or melded into each other, you know everytime you show up here sdgreed, what to expect. Yet you and your brownshirt buddy, Ron "God Bless Bush" Erwin, keep coming back for more. (The "socialist" label, in these times, is actually become pretty tame, compromised with capitalism stuff.)

Obviously though, you are finding something here that you can't or don't get on the "one liner grunt, burp and fart" Neocon/ loonie right sites.

Which is okay, because you do provide a laugh or two and some amusement, to us cats and coyotes what like to play with our food.

For all the right wing babble about free markets free, enterprise etc. it not the friend of free enterprise and small business, but the left. The left who favors small local business over Walmart and fights to preserve the down town areas against the big boxes. As further proof of what I am saying, the Italian province of Emelia Romagna is noted for its vast number of small businesses and was one of the strongest areas of support for the Communist Party. Emelia Romagna was once a very poor province, but is now one of the richest thanks to small businesses, mutual aid and cooperatives. That the preservation of free enterprise should be dismissed as “socialist dogma” says it all. The right, or at least the neocon right, is nothing more than a shill for corporate neo-feudalism and are the worst enemy of free enterprise and the Mom and Pop store. For Emelia Romagna see
http://www.clcr.org/publications/other/New%20Impressions%20of%20Emilia%20Romagna.doc

Dear sdgreen. Define jobs. You trying to promote the idea that Walmart creates jobs? Well, you know, I'd love to hear that argument, sir, because you know, I've seen quite a lot of evidence that Walmart destroys jobs. That the small stores they target when moving into a new territory actually employ more people and pay them better. Then of course, most of the ruined businesses were family owned, so those once prosperous families are jobless as well.

The net effect on a small town economy is devastating, but the devastation is gradual, and not many individual bankruptcies are ever laid directly on Sam Walton's unholy grave.

Then when you convince us of that we can start talking about the role Walmart plays in the reestablishment of slavery as an institution in the world.

Good pieces of writin, both Anarcho and Bailey.

On the money.

Coyote

Wise words from Chita...

Surely we can find economic solutions that respect the environment, social needs and our children's future; developments that respect and balance all of a community's different needs, such as the need for decent jobs and fair working conditions for all, including our First Nations communities, those who work in retail and those who make all the gizmos and gadgets that we "need", whether they're making them in China or Campbell River.

Part of that balance will come from exploring and finding community consensus on what are really "needs" vs. what are the "wants", and how can we ensure that basic needs are met first, and in ways that give people the maximum freedom to pursue their "wants".

I checked out a WallMart last week. They had lots of cool, cheap stuff. But when I thought about it, there was not a single item among the millions of goods in stock that I actually needed. But that was just me. I can understand how a senior living on a poverty-level pension would strongly disagree, and those, like me, who can live very happily without Wall-Mart, need to figure out how to meet those needs as well.

The term Walmartization refers to the effect that Walmart has in communities. They drive wages DOWN. And, the second effect which has been already mentioned is that they draw away business from small business. To my thinking, the Walmart issue, and the whole globalization issue is not a left/right issue at all, but an issue which requires us to think what is best for our communities.

The Walmart debate clearly annunciates the failure of the Left to understand the realities of the world and points out the feverpitched attempt to save their collective posterior extremities.

The fact is that we have priced ourselves out of the market. Why is it that jobs are being lost to overseas markets? Why is it that the service industry is basically the only one that seems to be growing? Why is it that our taxes are high? How come medical costs are escalating to such a high point?

Purchasing items in volume as the 'Big Boxes" do provides the consumer with lower costs and it that is so, then that is a benefit to the community. The fact that Ma and Pop store front can not compete is pity, but they do adjust since there are a number of niche markets that the Big Boxes do not deal with.

The big boxes do provide employment albeit perhaps at a lower rate than what might be benchmarked by the Unions. But the Unikon benchmark is flawed. We can not continue the escalation of wages and costs. Taxation and user fees by all levels are advancing at a rate far greater than the cost of living, and that can not continue. But why is that? Union wages, maybe?

If we refuse to adjust our thinking on the new economic realities, we will lose. Our cost of living will exceed all wild expectations and our current standard of living will decline quickly.

We must adjust, we should demand smaller government and we need to find new ways to compete in the global market.

I hope you are able to adjust to an equivalent Chinese wage yourself SD. Our current cost of living is already exceeding most wild expectations, and our standard of living has declined already, so just what are you talking about? The wages are not escalating as you refer to, even in the union sector who you seem to hate so much. What is escalating is the costs of producing commodities and products with fossil fuels, real estate prices which are beyond the reach of more and more of our fellow citizens, for examples. How are those Wal-Mart workers handling their $200,000 mortgages, and $1.00 litre gasoline? The problem as it has always been is the notion that we must continue to have uncontrolled and continuous growth, without concern for the future of the next generation. I doubt if you will sway many of us "socialists" here on the Tyee, greenie, maybe you could find a more sympathetic ear over at Erin Airheads site.

yes SD... how RIGHT you are...if the world unfolded as you believe it should then we would all be speaking english and eating the poor. (see SD's contribution in "7 things..Gordon Campbell..should stick up his..)

While I try not to support WalMart, frankly, they're way too plebian for me, aesthetically ugly, and generic multinational for my regionalist likings. And I'm all fine with regional planning and ecological decisions as long as they're applied consistently and not merely to be protectionist. The funny thing is this issue should be posing more of a conundrum on this forum than they should.

First of all, does any one have any real information on their wages, and whether they actually pay more or less than any other entry level retail job? I've known plenty of people who work at small cornerstore's, restaurants, and other places making minimum wage in positions with no chance of advancement. last time i went into a walmart (for socks or a present or something silly), i seem to remember quite a mixed demographics working there, and i think anyone who gets moved up the line gets a decent wage. also, i believe they offer flexible hours for women with school age children, more so than many other places.

Secondly, as long as I remember, I've gone to department stores, be it the downtown Woodwards, the Bay, Cosco. how is WalMart really any different than these places.

As a follow-up to this, I'd point out, almost any store i go to, big or small, the labels say made in China on them.

Lastly, does Walmart cater to the upper class, the rich, or yumpies like me? No. Their patrons are the penny pitching families of 7 who are eeking out their every paycheck, and who at least now can afford to buy their kids new clothes rather than second hand ones?

dangrice, If there are "families of 7 who are ekeing out their every paycheck" and dependant on Walmart, I'd tell them to stick your (retail consumer), advice in your ear and buy the second hand ones.

They are more than likely of superior quality and will have things like buttons sewn on to stay.

Also, the money you spend on that clothing will stay in your community and that's a good thing, as you know.

For a gentleman who has such a broad appreciation for the curative wonders of the Walmart experience on the working poor, I'm surprised you would need to ask many of the questions your posed above.

Issues surrounding this retail behemoth have been discussed and debated in the public for a decade now.

allan, i'll agree with you totally on quality, and spending in my community. but i'm hiding behind you when we go and tell the soccer mom where to shop!

I find sir john a's posts to be a vexation, a waste of time and motivated by the desire for personal attack but I cannot sustain a belief that he engages, or has engaged, in a particular criminal behaviour unless some evidence is presented. If the evidence exists, it should be forwarded to crown counsel for the approval(or not) of charges. It is simply not responsible to make allegations without providing reasons.

Dear sdgreen; You seem to be expounding religious rather than economic dogma. I really doubt that you could support very many of your basic assumptions with actual observation or evidence, unless you ignore all that obvious stuff that refutes your claims. As Chuckstraight points out, union rates have been slipping, not escalating, for several years now. Yet you continue to howl your false statement over and over as if believing will make it so. It won't.

Do you have a house? What's happened to it's price in the last few decades? This is a real question, please answer it.

Walmart doesn't make it's money buying in bulk. In sophomore economics 201 maybe, but in actuality they force their suppliers to deal in China, a totalitarian state where people are told where they are to work, and paid what Walmart decrees, no option.

Then they dump goods into a new territory at below even their own cost until those vibrant local economies are ruined.

I believe this is even budgetted into the startup financing in new stores. Several million for 'loss leaders' in the first few years, selling furniture and then housewares, then food at prices below what others must pay wholesale.

I point out to you that dumping goods into a market at below cost is an unfair trade practice, forbidden in international trade law, but not in small town bylaws.

Most obviously, the Walton family contains 6, count'em 6 multi-Billionaires. That money was once circulating in the small cities of North America. What circulates there now? Money is a representative of value. If you remove something from a place, it's no longer there. What replaces that lost value in the communities where Walmart trades? This is another real question, sir. It needs a real answer, not a platitude.

Finally, and this one is rhetorical, how can you keep on believing things that you think should be true, just on the strength of your political philosophy, when they are so clearly not true?

Now, this is the fire and brimstone Bailey that I get such a kick out of! :-)

These Neocons get away with their outrageous bs claims, until the good likes of yourself and Allan deside to take them on. Then they suddenly are reduced to the hot air balloons that they are.

Something going on with sirjohna though. I think she's going through a life crises. She's an embittered and angry woman, in need of some crisis intervention I think. Another raving Neocon she may be, but.....eh, there's something else there that's.... ohh, not so much pathetic, which was my first thought, as simply unhealthy, mentally. Unhinged. Out of whack.

And I ain't making fun of you sirj. I've had at least one seriously unbalanced woman in my life, and worked some with psychos/neurotics on hospital psych wards. (Pretty much confined to wrestling them to the ground and being back up so a nurse could give them shots, true. But still, you do pick up a thing or two.)

(No I won't retreat from using the word "ain't". I like it. It has a pleasant, politi
cally incorrect "hokyness" to it.)

And sdgreen? This one and Ron "God Bless Bush" Erwin are a different kettle of fish. Totally wacko-jobs too-, and a waste of breath. But methinks more dangerous too. (I hope CSIS is onto them. These are Oklahoma City/ McVeigh types.)

True believers of whatever cause, left or right, Islamist or Christian, always tend to be the more dangerous.

"Lastly, does Walmart cater to the upper class, the rich, or yumpies like me? No. Their patrons are the penny pitching families of 7 who are eeking out their every paycheck, and who at least now can afford to buy their kids new clothes rather than second hand ones?"

It always amuses me when conservatives start professing their concern for the poor. They love the poor, alrighty. That's why they are trying so hard to impoverish us. The more poor there are, the more of us to love. Yeah, yeah! Can't you feel it?

Yeah, I agree anarcho, and with that same smug conservative superiority comes the implication that the poor should know their place...and "their" place is the "plebian" and "aesthetically ugly" Walmart... and be oh so happy to buy there even as it impoverishes them as you say...

I agree with allan...shop where they sew the buttons on to stay...

Come on Dangrice, is it families of 7 or soccer moms you worry for?

The latter, I suspect would include an awful lot of those people you describe as "the upper class, the rich and yumpies like" you.

Frankly Dangrice, where people shop is their business. There are more than enough places to purchace needed consumer goods in this over-consuming country.

I worry more about where the families of 7 will be if they lose their income because there is virtually no social safety net left should they stumble.

Soccer moms have, in general I suppose, far more opportunities and, if you carry on with that stereotype, likely drive unneeded SUVs.

Why bother telling them where not to shop because after a decade of being told their transportation choices are helping to kill their own children, many continue to hog the passing lanes with their oversized bulk-mobiles.

To be honest though, and from my experience as a former soccer dad, soccer moms stretch across all categories including a very many who pinch pennies but refuse to settle for junk products.

If anyone is interested in watching the 'threads' of SJO's sanity unravel..you will want to read the 'roll over tommy douglas' thread..this will give further insight into my quest to expose him/her/it.
Camgra: I hear you loud and clear...s'accorder

I'm assuming everyone has seen the "report from london" thread..I'm not all about dark, crusading vengance..there are other ways to tackle these fascist whack jobs.

Hey sleeps: an attack on this obvious troll is far from needed. We all know where he's at, and his skewed and lamentably neo-con maunderings are illustration enough. Nothing wrong with playing the devil's advocate, if carried out with wit and aplomb, but it's merely sad when an half-witted and pathetically unintelligent virtual illiterate tries.

but tommy...how can an extremely intelligent, two degree, top of his class person be a half-witted and pathetically unintelligent virtual illiterate. Je ne vous comprends pas.

FYI Tommy..I forgot to indicate that sirJO stated yesterday in the "roll over tommy douglas" thread that he was "extremely intelligent..blah..blah blah"

We are letting people with nothing to say disrupt a good dialogue. Sir john a is a glowing example of the downside of free speech but we have the freedom to ignore pathetic rants, n'est pas?

qui qui mon ami

anarcho and lynn, please watch who you call conservative, as i've mentioned before, i'm a consequentialist libertarian. more of a mills' classical liberal, but in this age, neither liberal nor conservative are flags i'd want to wave.

allan, no self respecting yumpie would ever go near walmart. we shop at the bay and eaton's while we wait for a sale at holt renfrew. and as an young unmarried urbanite, i have very little sympathy for those who cross the 2-3 children barrier (ie. sustainable procreation).

i'll admit my earlier posting was more food for thought, but strangely instead of actually responding, posters began hounding me for being smug or faking concern. the question is not why i side with walmart, i don't. the question is to those who are vehemently opposed, and how do they respond to those questions I raised.

anyways, i think the quest points i raised were legitimate. but at the same time i'm curious what the response would be, as i'm still flexible enough in my thought to be conviced, on some issues.

perhaps sourjohn is Rachel Marsden. There is change going on with her at the moment.

Now that we have pathologically angry whackjobs like Marsden and Andrew Coyne being given space in the National Post to spew their hate filled rhetoric, we can expect the same results that right wing media have acheived in the US....a gullible public who willingly believe the lies and then whipped into a patriotic/religious fervour will blindly accept any loss of freedom a neocon government mandates.
ps: I suppose sirjerkboy could be Marsden...it wouldn't actually alter my diagnosis all that much

Ron Erwin:

Not when gas hits $2.50/litre............

Free enterprise, Walmart-style:
http://www.hypocrites.com/article17439.html

Can't help but wonder just what the cost of setting up Walmart in Campbell River, that would come out of the tax base?

http://www.friedkitten.com/archive/2005/04/externalizing_c.html

better late than .....I shop wal-mart and see happy employees who seem to be enjoying the work they are doing. and I see the same faces every time I go there. Does that say anything for wal-mart? Some folks would have you think they would be better off doing nothing or collecting welfare. Go over to zellers and see what kind of staff they have...I did and went back to wal-mart. these are our heighbours that are working there and deserve our support. Store placement, however, is a different story.

and further to Bailey's story way up the page, look around at the wal-mart's that are in mall's. do you ever see vacant store fronts?
hardly ever cause small business' want the business/traffic that wal-mart brings. in Chilliwack, a dying mall welcomed wal-mart and now thrives. if you don't like walmart, don't shop there but don't force your thoughts on everyone.

netscaper2:
You never see an unsmiling face at MacMuck's either.......but no one except the manager makes a living working at MacMuck's
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/27/Opinion/Wal_Mart_welfare.shtml

http://www.babelloyd.com/walmart.html

Dangrice.com wrote, "anarcho and lynn, please watch who you call conservative, as i've mentioned before, i'm a consequentialist libertarian. more of a mills' classical liberal, but in this age, neither liberal nor conservative are flags i'd want to wave."

Good. That means, like such classical liberals as Jefferson and Smith, that you must be opposed to the corporate system, which they saw correctly as a collectivist and statist assault upon free enterprize.

anarcho, what do you mean when you refer to "the corporate system".

If you mean having governments subsidize businesses such as bombardier and halliburton, then yes i'm opposed. I really don't care for the power structure one way or another, large government, business, or violence, with the exception that i see times where unfortuneately one power structure is needed to counterbalance another power structure, and where that situation does arise, it must not be treated as stasis.

on the other hand, i also like the organic and competitive nature of the capitalist system.

The American system of government is, in it's formal structure a corporate body. In theory, it acts as a single entity, a corporate "person". It has a president, vice president, departments with department heads, chains of command and bureaucratic control organs.

It's quite true that Jefferson argued against this, but it was a good choice for a long time, since it supported a certain amount of independence for important checks and balances, and some self-correcting regulating mechanisms.

For instance, it supported a professional civil service, which allowed stability and a certain inertia for planning and execution of projects and goals that would take more than four years to accomplish. Another example, the independent Federal Judiciary which protected the Constitution from partisan interference, and by doing that, protected the human rights and freedoms all the western democracies have adopted for their people.

But now that very corporate structure that has been so influential in the world has itself made western democracy vulnerable to a unique attack. An unprecidented one.

Other corporate bodies, psychotic in nature and lacking those self healing and regulating mechanisms, have essentially formed into non territorial quasi-states and accomplished what amounts to a hostile takeover by co-opting political parties, information services, and those journalistic institutions which previously protected all democratic processes by exposing abuses to public scrutiny.

In essence, the Republican party, in concert with the Southern Christian fundamentalists by capturing as many of the levers of control as they can, have created a situation where policy is set by those it's supposed to limit.

Commercial policy and labor standards are set for the US by Wal-mart. Chinese foreign policy is strongly influenced as well. Middle eastern foreign policy is set by oil interests, through Halliburton and BP and their allies.

This is no longer exclusively an American phenomenon. Through globalization, signs of media monopolisation are seen everywhere, commercial interests are receiving poorly accounted government money in huge amounts for very questionable deals, international import/export trade is manipulated, see softwood lumber.

The connections that appear between the recasting of international trade rules, the reappearance of slavery on a mass scale in Asia, and the interests of Walmart can hardly be illusions, given the extraordinary internal consistancy of the observable events.

Great synopsis. Is this a product of history repeating itself, simply greed. Profit taking on a scale never seen before? Or is there a plan behind this insanity? Why would anyone want to continue down a road passing a big sign that says dead end? Without conspiracy, it's still easy to see how this engine ran away. Then there is also manufactured consent. We have enough analogies now to compare, the canary in the mine, the frog in the pot of slowly boiling water.....homo sapiens on earth? Your sphere of influence may be small but collectively it can have impact. You choose where you shop and what you shop for. When the shelves are bare of food I doubt very much anyone is going to compare the cost of a power washer at Wall Mart vs. Costco. You are an animal. To survive you need clean air, clean food and clean water. Even Bill Gates will require these things, and last time I checked, Wall Mart wasn't stocking any of these items. Too simple? Yes, that's what the crew told me after sailing last night, but it sure made sense after beer #4. I think the party is just about over. Maybe that's why they're hoarding nuts for the long winter.

Hmm. Bailey, if thats the corporate system, then I'm sort of against it. Although at least in the US, the seperation of powers lead to more checks and balances. (though, the big Rs now control all 3 levels of government) The bad part is both systems are pluralities, where a minority vote, properly allotted, can exercise majority control.

clubofrome; It's increasingly meaningless and misleading to speak in such terms. Greed. Well, sure. There's greed in it; greed for wealth, power, status. Also malice, fear, faith, and loyalty, conviction and delusion.

It's just a misdirection. To think in terms of left vs right wing, or humanist vs corporate leads you away from the ability to understand what you're seeing.

As long as you are focused on what should be happening, or what the theories of various ideologies are, you will be blind to simple cause and effect, to what actually is happening.

If nation states are corporations in a world of corporations, and their competitors have released themselves from the bounds of territoriality and rule of law by becoming globally mobile, states can't compete successfully.

And since global corporations have no national loyalties, it seems to them like just business as usual to attack nations, corrupt or pack their boards (governments) with agents, take control, then strip all available assets.

The assets of territorial states are territorial, and their shareholders are citizens, bound to the land as well. Until recently, nations were the caretakers of law. Human behaviour was regulated by codified morality enforced by mutual civil responsibilities. Everyone knew what was right and wrong, except psychotics. We learned by being part of our families, our cultures, and our societies.

We learned that lying and stealing and harming others were bad, even if they made you rich, and the law would maybe stop you and punish you for it.

None of that is true for global corporations. To steal the air or water or resources or public assets of nations is just business to them, and they seem too stupid to realise that when the citizens start dying, they will soon die too.

Maybe they think they can hide. I think that in their very form, corporations were flawed. The mutual responsibilities of humanity that were built in to the structure of states, that reflected duty and morality of human society was left out of corporations. Nothing replaces it.

Their flaws led them to become perfect homes for psychotic people, who themselves lack those intimate understandings. Therefore the corporations also lack them.

The argument set out in "The Corporation" that corporations are psychotic is very convincing. Psychotic people are very clever at seeming normal. They would be at a distinct advantage in an organization like that, having no conscience or morals to limit their actions. Also, for psychotics, wealth is a defence. We rarely institutionalize the very rich.

Walmart is only one example, but if you can think of another explanation than they're just nuts for the massively destructive behaviour of these institutions, please bring it out here.

Personally, I think they're nuts. Quite mad. It's like they're selling their own organs because they can get lots of money for them. They sold their souls first, because they couldn't see what souls were good for.

Psychotics never can. It's how you recognise them.

Bailey
To help put your scenario of multinational corporate psychosis into perspective it helps to understand that the current US government is controlled by religious zealots who have stated publically that they are eagerly awaiting Armeggedon.
sleep well

Some places never change. The City of Revelstoke doesn't even have a Tim Horton's franchise let alone a Wal-Mart.

Eddy Haskel, Walmart is now moving into the second tier centres so don't be suprised if an unnamed developer, likely First Pro., isn't announced by your city hall to erect a mega-store.

You want to hope that at the very least their isn't any land currently zoned to take these suckers.

But even if they announce they will build on properly zone lands, there are other avenues of stopping or at least delaying them, such as the highways ministry which has to approve any that link directly to a provincial highway.

Environmental issues are another means, but it has to be issues that are the responsibility of senior levels of government.

If Walmart does get in, say goodbye to any redevelopment plans for downtown Revelstoke and invest in plywood mills because that will be the only thing local merchants will be buying as they die a painful economic death.

They are in all the larger communities that would allow them by now. So they are trying to get into places like Salmon Arm and Merrit.

It was their MO in the states. Build the big centre in a dominant community then fan out to the smaller ones.

Kill off all competition and then jack up the prices. The next step is then to close the smaller stores leaving hapless consumers the option of driving long distances to the next Walmart.

Remember, Walmart has nothing to do with commuity development or responsibilities despite the PR they may hoist. It's profit, profits and more profits that count for this family of billionaires.

Tim Hortons used to be a Canadian company, wasn't it?

right on rick w...lets close all the wal-marts and mcdonalds...that'll fix those big fat americans...sounds like a good idea to you i bet. guys like you should be running this country ! have a nice dat !

Right on from me too Rick W.

However, it looks like netscaper2 opted to ignore the links you offered in your post.

I didn't and I thank you for them. Imagine Walmart having the nerve to enlist its employees in a state low-income medical plan to avoid paying those costs itself.

That takes the old corporate welfare trick to new lows in my estimation.

But apparently netscaper is a doubter and thinks Walmart and McYuks, which both pay strarvation wages deserve even more tax relief at the public's expense.

Good thing we at least have some form of socialized medicine in Canada, but that still doesn't keep Walmart employees from having to visit local foodbanks to avoid starvation.

Well Bailey....
While I do believe there are many factors involved in the human condition, I see your point with how corporations could be viewed as cancer or flesh eating disease, consumming there hosts. Do we have a model of what the alternative is besides subsistance farming and Saturday night barn dances? Where is the off ramp to the road we are on now? Your point about right and wrong is worth exploring on a grand scale. Because these so called sane people, some our friends and neighbors, are working for the global corporations does that mean they too have lost the meaning of right and wrong? I see the evidence every day, all around where the average person is unaware of what is happening around them. Cell phones glued to their ear, mcsandwich in the one hand, latte squeezed between their knees... in an suv of course.... While I believe the future looks dismal, I not quite ready to fold. So... on a small scale I will try and do my part. Buy organic, (and local) consume less, boycott where required, and continue to reveal the shape of things to come or may come.... Of course when there is no longer any choice when our options have been stripped away from us, then it's time for trouble. I've been told that no one gets out alive anyway. With any luck Armeggedon will allow the dolphins to evolve into their rightful place as the dominant species on earth.
Very enjoyable reading ...thanks.

I am enjoying reading these posts about Walmart and related issues.Very inspriring.
I am glad that Campbell River did not let them in, and glad that Vancouver did it too, Guelph and Burlington Ontario also. Seems those places are everywhere and constantly applying to develop everywhere you go.
First Pro development recently bought up many homes on the street where I live, Alexandra Rd, Richmond BC. Here they are not getting much opposition at all. Maybe most Richmond residents dont even know of the plan. Not sure.
This is one of the last streets left that has so many large trees and wildlife. The city is undergoing massive developments. High density housing like crazy. People dont have much say as they chop away a lot of the green space. We are surrounded here by lots of shopping already, more than enough in fact, 3 malls, Can tire, superstore,ect.
How does a person get people interested in issues like stopping Walmart? It seems that so many people are opposed to them and there are so many reasons why we should not welcome them, so why am I having such a hard time finding them here in Richmond. A picture gallery of the area
http://www.members.shaw.ca/westcambie/AlexandraRd/
If anyone has any ideas on how to draw attention to attract people who may be interested in having a say about Walmart in their town, please let me know. The main thing is finding the people here first. Please email

with any ideas. I have never even written a letter to the editor before. Hey maybe thats a good place to start

Lizann, Surrey residents managed to stop First Pro and Walmart from opening a centre in '99. However everyone knew they would be welcomed (or so they said) in Richmond.
I'm glad that isn't entirely true.

Regardless, you have the makings of a good issue with wildlife and numerous plant species abounding.

A biologist, if you can find one would likely be able to turn up a number of rare or endangered species in the proposed site.

Traffic volumes of course are a big issue in the Lower Mainland.

I don't know your specific area but these mega stores attract something like 800 to 1,000 vehicles an hour so 15 cars turning into the retailer each minute isn't stretching what you will experience.

You are also quite free to immediately start lobbying city council members as the developer will.
A little work early on could help you tremendously. Perhaps a petition, a meeting of "concerned citizens" to start.

Someone has to get the ball rolling in your neighbourhood or you will get a Walmart.

The UFCW, Local 1518 used to be quite involved in opposing Walmart developments. Perhaps you could contact it for advice and or assistance.

Find someone who was involved in the Vancouver group that won or the Surrey group that also won.

The latter was initially run by one woman as well, but she got people on side and then the entire community for blocks in every direction were lobbied.

Is there a small business association in that area? If so, talk to its leadership and try to get on one of their meeting agendas where you can make your case to the membership.

Don't forget small retailers will be hurt as well if Walmart arrives.

There may be a lot of pressure later on small business to toe the "free-enterprize" line and not criticize the development plan. If you have been to them already with a personal pitch you are several steps ahead because the shop keepers will appreciate that you thought of them and asked for their assistance.

They know their own bottom line better than anyone.

What ever you do, don't be quiet about this. Municipal politicians love it when they aren't facing a potential hostile audience of local taxpayers, who incidently, will be voting on the next Richmond council later this year.

Work your butt of now to find others who will campaign. It will be a long drawn out fight, beleive me, but if you stick to your guns with valid arguments, Walmart's money won't be enough to sell the deal.

Thank you Allen for many many great ideas.Have done some of those things.Maybe its a bit of a conservative town, but have actually had a few good responses today
I am on it! thanks

clubofrome asks: " Do we have a model of what the alternative is besides subsistance farming and Saturday night barn dances? "

I think yes. At least the greater parts of one. If companies were brought back under the rule of law, that would be a great start. Even if the law were international, to be effective with global corporations, that would suffice to reestablish the connection between the officers of a corporation and the acts of the corporation, and create some consequences for crimes.

Currently, a big problem is that corporations can commit crimes against humanity without breaking any laws. Slavery, abuses of workers, corruption of civil authorities, pollution, reckless endangerment of whole populations, conspiricy with warlords, etc. The list of horrendous crimes committed by these corporations is long.

Bring them under the law, back among civilized humanity where they must face us and answer for themselves, where due process and consequences can influence their decisions.

Where they must commit themselves to a higher principle than only profit.

Your second question is more interesting:

"Because these so called sane people, some our friends and neighbors, are working for the global corporations does that mean they too have lost the meaning of right and wrong? "

Again I think yes, but not because they're all psychotic or anything. It's seems more like a redefinition of right and wrong by psychotics in power has superimposed itself over any independent thinking of their own. Most people let others, some authority, decide these big questions.

It's how the Nazis convinced ordinary German teenagers, shopkeepers and factory hands to commit industrial mass murders, turning their neighbours into mattresses and children's dolls. They dressed everybody up in uniforms, taught them all to obey, and then got the ones in fancier uniforms to order the others to do it, one little step at a time.

And they did. Had they lost the meaning of right and wrong? Yes. Could they have regained it? Again unquestionably yes, at any moment, but the cost would have been huge. They would have lost their freedom, perhaps their lives, unless a huge number of them regained it all at once.

And all they would have gotten for it was their own souls back.

A great start. So we get them to do things right. It's not the same as doing the right thing. The motivation for corporations is still profit. That doesn't fit in with the most important law, the law of nature. There is no wealth with out environment and it's being slashed and burned for short term gain. So I still don't see a model for the future that resembles a life we can comprehend. Or perhaps the "market correction" will not be as severe as predicted.

bailey...you're a complete idiot !

netscaper2; thanks for the insightful analysis. Which part did you like best?