Rafe likes to deploy the tired old east/west wedge. It's easier than admitting that Harper and the Conservatives are way behind in the polls here too. According to the latest Leger national poll of May 26 the BC numbers are Liberals: 46%, Conservatives 26% and NDP 22%.

At bottom, for all of his attempts at flexibility, Rafe remains an old Socred backroomer. Read him and listen to him with that in mind.

Anything he talks about other than old Socred ,or now, neo-liberal political thought is only done in order to try to bring his favoured crowd back into line with him. He has no interest in promoting other parties or other ways of thinking about politics.

His recent deathbed conversion to Green wasn't because he's a Green voter. It's because he's a disillusioned BC Liberal with a desire to reform his party of choice. If Campbell and Co. give him even a crumb of an opportunity Rafe'll be back blowing their horn for them just as loudly as he was in 2001.

Rafe - I really think you lose your bearings where you stray in to central canadian politics. Harper has mishandled matters, I agree. Most recently, he would have shown enormous good sense by taking to the high ground on the Grewal affair. Instead, it looks like he's about to take a sucker punch that could have easily been avoided. Provided the tories don't completely blow their collective foot off, my view is that they are a serious contender for a majority government now that the Martin Liberals have committed to run an election on "liberal corruption". For grits, the mystic stars say be careful of exchanging short term gain for long term pain. The liberals are about to implode.

The sooner Quebec leaves Canada the better for us all. They get the lion's share of federal largess and want more. They discriminate against Anglo's and want us to defend their culture at the cost of ours. I resent paying federal politicians (the bloc)whose sole purpose in parliament is to fleece nine provinces on the way out the door.

Oh Sullivan, careful or some of us might encourage you to pack your bags as well.

I think Mair is correct as far as the Conservatives and Ontario go. He might be able to scare up a few anti-Quebec votes in say Kingston or Brockville, but his Alberta links don't really inspire much excitement among motorists who have seen gas prices double in a year or so.

Just like the myths about Quebecers hating other Canadians, Alberta suffers back east from the impression it's making a killing off those angry gas buyers.

The infamous "Let them freeze in the dark," that came out of Albertan mouths back in Trudeau's day is still remembered darkly by many east of the Lakehead.

I too think Belinda will cost him plenty. In fact she has all but finished the guy's chances, at least in Greater Toronto Area, where half the ridings are.

I'm going to predict that Jack Layton will be the winner in the GTA because both twiddle-dee or twiddle-dum have too much stuff hanging off their noses.

The liberals might fare okay in Ontario if they went in a unified party, which has always been the case. What is interesting and new is the fault lines that are showing up within the liberals. Pat O'Brien left today. Tom Woeppel must be getting antsy. Some old Chretien loyalist still haunt them in Ontario and are willing to open some wounds even if costs the party, e.g. Warren Kinsella. How do you think Sheila Copps is reacting when she watches Tony Valeri perform in the house having taken her seat out from under her in Hamilton? David Petersen may have done the party no favours by recruiting Stronach, who now has a portfolio that has renewed the careers of much brighter lights. And how to think loyal, patient Ontario back benchers like Paddy Torsney must feel when they see someone cross the floor and join the cabinet. New leadership contenders are in the wings mostly in Ontario (Manley, Tobin, Rock) In other words, The Ontario caucus is not unified. National media has their biases too, and these divisions are not getting a lot of attention.

er... "renewed" should of course be "ruined" there. God knows how many other typos, as per usual. Very small font tough on old eyes...

John:

You've got to be kidding. You seriously think that the Conservatives are a "serious contender for a majority government"? The number of fiscal conservatives I know that will not vote for the Conservatives is astonishing. They have to break their link with the Reform/Alliance label before Ontario will ever take them seriously. Simply, they are not trustworthy to maintain the status quo and that is scary for Ontario and the East inparticular. The Conservatives are not able to win a majority government with Harper as leader ... period.

That they are poised to deliver a landslide victory in the face of a "corrupt" government says it all. It really is too bad. For many people, they see the Liberal party is their only choice. That's sad, but that is the reality. Only the Conservatives can solve the problem by dumping Harper and getting a Conservative from Ontario that has no links to Reform/Alliance. Too bad they seem too dumb to realize this.

Oops ... First sentence in the second paragraph should read: "That they are not poised to deliver a landslide victory in the face of a "corrupt" government says it all.

LOL

re: Quebec referendum #3 - yes, it is coming and the Federal Crown, the rest of Canada, and especially the citizens of Canada will be shook up by such an eventuality especially if it is a positive vote for soverignty.

The way I see it, the legal relations between Quebec & the Federal government and the rest of Canada needs changing big time...the constitutional framework which Quebec did not sign is not only not good for Quebec ....it sure as hell isn't that good for the rest of Canada either. Canadians, including Quebecers, need to modernize the legal relations between themselves the cities, provinces and the federal government. For those who lament the death of the old institutional-legal order that constitutes the capitalist state of CANADA please remember something, hopefully better will rise from the ashes....providing citizens and not Premier's are empowered. What Trudeau started by repatriating the constitution must be completed, not by the old boys club of Premiers and the PM, but by the democratic actions of an informed citizenry, constituted within an constitutional constituent assembly whose members, are not MP's with a vested interested in the old order, but rather members elected directly by the people of Canada. No doubt this view will not be popular, no doubt there are many who want to continue on with the way things are --namely, continue on with the prevailing legal/institutional relations...how the forces of history will play this one out is still unknown....so we'll see.

If the Liberal Party is divided, as John above states, the Conservative Party is dead, its corpse swarming with the maggots of Reform.

Or more like it, the cadaver has been put to evil use a lá Frankenstein, its stumbling frame hosting a transplanted, diseased brain. Come to think of it, Stephen Harper does resemble that old Boris Karloff turn, although somehow with less animation but more creepiness.

FrankenSteve!

Who out there believes the party of sleazy Quebec pol Jean Chretien will be dethroned by the party of sleazy Quebec pol Brian Mulroney — over the issue of ethics?

Given the history of both parties, the issue is that ethics is not the issue. So then let's choose instead on a political agenda. Not much difference there either, except to the extent that the NDP has leveraged some social and environmental spending into the Liberal budget.

Folks of my generation will recall the see-saw Parliaments of the late 50s thru mid-60s in which a Lib/NDP alignment faced off against Progressive Conservatives allied with the Creditistes, a Quebec nationalist splinter from the collapsed federal Social Credit. Arguably the Bloc includes some progressive voices, in contrast to those earlier near-fascist holdovers from the Duplessis era — but in return today's Conservatives have dropped "Progressive" from their brand name and are silencing the Red Tories in their midst. Why wouldn't Belinda Stronach walk out? Why would Peter McKay not walk out? Stockholme syndrome?

The beauty of our present situation is that both major parties are fracturing. My vote goes to the NDP, as it always has, but my heart is with Leonard Cohen, who ought to run for something on his slogan: "There is a crack / a crack in everything / That's where the light gets in."

victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/31934.php

For anyone who missed the above article - a reminder of things that could happen to our country under Harper.

Mair is right - Ontario would vote liberal even if the whole cabinet were convicted child molesters simply to preserve the status quo. You think Harper and Day are scary? Who was it that balanced the budget by stealing from the old age pension fund, the unemployment money and health care? Who was it that managed our standard of living from second in the world to 20th? Come on you guys - surely right and wrong is worth as much as right and left. There's not much that's right remaining with the Liberals. It's long past time that those of us in the West rejected Ontario's fixation with maintaining their dictatorial status in confederation and went our own way. As for federalism under the Liberals, if Canada was anywhere near the country it could and should be, I doubt that Quebec or anyone else would be talking about leaving it.

Chris H:

I'm not cheering the prospect AT ALL but if the grits are poised for self-immolation in Ontario, we could easily see a new and more toxic version of the sort of conservative coalition that put Mulroney in for two terms. (And OhSullivan might get some asymterical form of his wish).

Of course, the liberals are very good at getting their shit together when its in the collective interests of the party and that could happen again. The reason I think it might not: (a) lots of bad blood, bad feeling ESPECIALLY in Ontario within the party - toss up between burying the axe and firmly lodging it in your "friend's" back, (b) surprisingly, Paul Martin is demonstrating little royal jelly; who could have known? - turns out he's not very good at this after all these years, and (c) even Ontario gets a "throw the bastards out" feeling once in a while - are they really going to vote to be the liberals in for a 6th term?? By bet is no, with a move to the NDP a big result with some gains for the tories on the split.

While the most likely result is another coalition (liberal in coalition with stronger NDP, or some kind of precarious tory/bloc relationship), I can see a conservative majority - when you look at the districts and potential gains and losses rather than the largely meaningless national popular vote, i.e. looking at trees rather than the forest.

I think it was historian George Woodcock that made the point that the main accomplishment of Confederation was to move the headquarters of colonial exploitation from London, England to Toronto and Montreal. From the perspective of westerners (and probably Maritimers as well, though I wouldn't know personally) this pattern has continued through the years since, implemented by policies like the Crow rate that promoted shipping raw materials east, but not value added manufactured goods. In the days before Confederation when there was genuine "free trade," Halifax was the second busiest port in North America after Boston, which is why Nova Scotia had to be bribed and dragged kicking and screaming into Canada.

This trend is now under attack by globalism which is essentially an attempt by the United States and the super-national (above any jurisdictional loyalty or responsiblity) multi-national corporations to exploit the whole planet for the benefit of the few.

I still think Confederation was overall a positive thing, otherwise I would (shudder) be sitting in the United States right now. However, by sheer numbers, Central Canada has an almost solid lock on who governs Canada. It doesn't help, from a western perspective that Maritime provinces like PEI, with less people than Surrey are guaranteed so many MPs in Ottawa. The truth is everyone west of the Lakehead is under-represented, another part of the democratic deficit that Mr. Martin doesn't seem to address.

Though I sympathize with Quebecer's desire to protect their language and culture, I find it amazing that the same Parliment that refused to let Louis Riel take his seat, allows a whole herd of MPs to take the oath to serve Canada and the Queen, when their clearly stated goal is the destruction of Canada. In our war-mongering neighbor to the south a similiar situation led to their biggest war ever, measured in American casualties. Of course the dead on both sides were Americans.

Rafe is correct that Harper hasn't a chance to win a majority government and there are so many reasons. I must admit it was amusing to see Alberta and Quebec essentially join forces in their misguided effort to bring down the Martin government. There really isn't a Conservative party anymore, Mulroney killed it off with professional level corruption and trying to sell off Canada to the US. These guys are the old Reform/CRAP (Conservative Reform Alliance Party) in drag. At least they were honest enough to remove Progressive from the name. One of their main problems is that they are defined by what they hate and are against- woman's rights, gay rights, Quebecer's (usually) and the environment. Maybe they could take on Ralph Klein in Alberta and actually govern a province.

It may seem off the point, but it is related to all this, it was interesting to listen to Canada's replacement for Paul Celluci, Frank McKenna, chiding Canadians for criticizing the American Empire. I just wish instead of being the Canadian ambassador to the US, this crony of the Bushes would just immigrate to the country he loves so he could be with his friends all the time, and we wouldn't have to listen to him.

Raif's right.
Federal politics is all about QUEER-BEC and Trana.
I can't wait for those whiney basterds to vote separate from this useless excuse for democracy called Canuckistan.
Confederation has never worked for the western provinces, and now it's only a drain on your tax money.
Our dumbass federation is a useless buraucracy at best and generally a waste of your western breath.
To those who think Raif is all wet, try listening to this just once.
SISTER...THEY AIN'T LISTENING TO YOU!!!! YOU AIN'T FROM QUEER-BEC or Trana. THEY CAN'T OR Won't HEAR YOU!

"Sorry BC. It's all about Ontario appeasing Quebec."

Sorry Rafe. "The West" is dead. Politics in BC used to be defined by regionalism, but increasing it is defined, as per Stephen Harper's wish, see Rediscovering the Right Agenda, by social issues. BC and Alberta are no longer of a piece.

Just look at the numbers. The combined PC Alliance vote in 2000 was 57%. In 2004 it is down to 36%. Most polls now put the Conservatives in the mid to high 20s range. To add insult, the dreaded Liberals are in the lead. Michael Campbell, David Berner and the Sun's Yaffe must be pulling out their hair.

Vancouver is just as socially liberal as Toronto, if not more so, and if this trend continues come next election, the Liberals and NDP will pick up Conservative seats in and around Vancouver.

Easy to say Koby, and I'd love it if you were right, but I don't think so: can you give me an example of a seat now held by a conservative in an around Vancouver that you think could be lost to the liberals or the NDP? You must have had one if not more when you said this is the trend in the next election?

Rafe has seen a distinction in interests between Alberta and BC for some time. He used to talk about it quite frequently, but then the salmon stocks started to crash. I agree with you on your social issues point - and this is hurting the liberals, although the mostly urban, socially liberal media get uncomfortable talking about it. Pat O'Brien's departure from the liberals is being covered quite gingerly, for example. The fissures are present in Ontario, too and the personal politics very poisonous their at the moment. Its an odd time when long time liberal personalities are hoping for a liberal loss - not to destroy the party, but the humble the Martin crew and make way for the next team whoever that will be. It's really quite palpable when you're there.

1))secret agent Gurmant Grewal (Newton-North Delta)will loose his seat.

2)Thanks to her husband Nina Grewal might loose her's too. (Fleetwood-Port Kells)

3)I can not see Paul Forseth hanging on this time. The NDP will take it. (New Westminster-Coquitlam)

4) John Reynolds (West Vancouver-Sunshine Coast-Sea to Sky Country)
lost to Bliar Wilson in West Van, but Powell River saved his bacon. Powell River will go NDP this time and Wilson will expand his lead over socially Conservative Weston.

5)I am going to go out on a limb and say that Russ Hiebert (South Surrey-White Rock-Cloverdale)is not a sure thing.

These are the other ridings the Conservatives may loose.

1)Jim Gouk (British Columbia Southern Interior)

2)James Lunney (Nanaimo-Alberni)

3)Gary Lunn (Saanich-Gulf Islands)

4)(Vancouver Island North) John Duncan is I believe stepping down.

Pat O'Brien: The two main parties are also increasing defined by were they stand on social issues. MPs who do not fit the mold are finding themselves either pushed aside by the party itself, or by groups who back the party.

Thanks for that koby. Interesting...

I agree with your comments about Pat O'Brien. Of the 5 GVRD seats you mention, only 3 and 4 seem plausible to me. (It has to play out yet but based on current events I doubt Grewal will run...maybe not his wife either) Just don't see liberals or the NDP in those seats. It would be a first wouldn't it? Of the other 5 BC seats, I can see NDP gains as plausible in 2 through 4.

As to liberal losses - Emerson in Vancouver Kingsway might be in trouble if the NDP puts up somebody strong. Fry will not be elected in Vancouver Centre, and the tory candidate is looking good for it. Owen nearly lost last time in Vancouver Quadra to Stephen Rogers and will go down this time I would wager. Do they have any other seats in the province to lose? Oh yeah, David Anderson's Oak Bay enclave - he's not running. The right sort of Tory could win behind the Tweed Curtain, no?

I have difficulty seeing the liberals forming any sort of Government the way things are unfolding now (and could change) unless they make GAINS in Ontario, which I don't see as very likely.

The Conservatives will win Vancouver center when hell freezes over. They finished a distant third some 11,000 votes behind.

Owen doubled Stephen Rogers and in the process collected 52% of the vote. Vancouver Quadra is solid Liberal terrority.

Grewal won by 500 votes last time in tight three way race. There is no way, given the actions of agent Grewal, that they win again. The NDP or Liberals will take it.

The Conservatives are at a lower point now then when they were after the last election and their vote is less efficient. They are up in Alberta down in BC and holding steady everywhere else. The last major poll conducted in BC put the Liberals at 47%, the Conservatives at 26% and the NDP 22%. The Liberal support is concentrated in and around Vancouver and Victoria. It is not high in the Bible belt or in the interior of the province. You do the math.

The Tory candidate in Anderson's riding came a distant third. The Liberals or NDP will take it.

NDP should pick up seats on the Island.

"The Conservatives will win Vancouver center when hell freezes over. They finished a distant third some 11,000 votes behind".

Check the weather. It had been a conservative seat for years. If Lorne Mayencourt can win Vancouver Burrard, a tory can win Vancouver Centre again.

"Owen doubled Stephen Rogers and in the process collected 52% of the vote. Vancouver Quadra is solid Liberal terrority."

You're right about the totals, I am wrong. (It certainly seemed closer) Historically, it was a tory seat for a generation or two, but it has been liberal since Turner returned. I'm out to lunch here.

"Grewal won by 500 votes last time in tight three way race. There is no way, given the actions of agent Grewal, that they win again. The NDP or Liberals will take it".

I doubt Grewal will run. I could see the NDP picking it up, but a liberal win in this riding would be astounding.

"The Conservatives are at a lower point now then when they were after the last election and their vote is less efficient. They are up in Alberta down in BC and holding steady everywhere else. The last major poll conducted in BC put the Liberals at 47%, the Conservatives at 26% and the NDP 22%. The Liberal support is concentrated in and around Vancouver and Victoria. It is not high in the Bible belt or in the interior of the province. You do the math."

The math: in order for the liberals to win a majority, they have to win more seats. They will lose seats in Quebec. Liberals need to make gains somewhere, and they are not poised to make gains anywhere. You haven't pointed to any likely liberal gains in BC (urban or bible belt) positing only a very long shot for a liberal gain in Surrey Newton based on today's news cycle. I can't think where else the liberals might hope to find seats. Rafe thinks Ontario where he and conventional wisdom say conservatives might lose to liberals. I don't see it. I can see big NDP gains, but they only help liberals if it comes to establishing a minority coalition. Math says the odds favour one of two flavours of minority goverment.

"NDP should pick up seats on the Island"

Unquestionably including oakbay possibly, as you say. This does not help the liberals form a majority government.

The liberals would lose seats in the next election as things now stand. They lose a majority government unless they make gains in addition to overcoming their losses. They become at least the second largest party in the house if their gains don't sufficiently offset their losses.

Debate away guys....BC will NEVER EVER EVER have a voice in federal politics that hasn't been cleared with Upper and Lower Canader first.
Speculation over our worthless seats is nothing more than lambs bleating at the wind.
By the way, since I live in the neighbourhood, Gouk couldn't win as latrine digger.

"Check the weather. It had been a conservative seat for years. If Lorne Mayencourt can win Vancouver Burrard, a tory can win Vancouver Centre again."

No Hedy Fry has been there for years.

Does this like it is trendy Conservative
2004

Lib Hedy Fry
21280

NDP Kennedy Stewart
17050

Con Gary Mitchell
10139

2000 election

Liberals 17991

Alliance 11052

NDP 5053

PC 4970

Today sunny and warm?

As for Lorne Mayencourt winning being proof that the Conservative party could win in this riding, let me just say that Mayencourt has much more in common with Sven Robinson then with Art Hanger. He is very much out of the closet.

The Liberals will not win a majority. No way. Chances are the next time out things will look very much the same as they do now.

"The liberals would lose seats in the next election as things now stand. They lose a majority government unless they make gains in addition to overcoming their losses. They become at least the second largest party in the house if their gains don't sufficiently offset their losses."

133- 98 is the way things stand right now.

The Liberals will loose 5 to 10 seats in Quebec and maybe a few in Ontario. However, were are the Conservatives going to make gains? The gains the make in Ontario will be whipped out by looses in BC. If you think the situation in BC is bad for the Conservatives, Doyle and other Altantic Canada Conservative MPs are even talking of supporting the budget.

Sadly, Mair is probably right.

What a choice we have: endorse continued corruption by voting Liberal; or take a giant step towards a religious theocracy by voting for the Tories and the religious right. In BC, this scenario leaves us with the NDP (if one doesn't like the NDP, they can always vote Green if they don't mind not having any seats). Alas, in Quebec, this scenario leaves one with the choice of voting for the Bloc or throwing away a vote on a fringe party.

Unfortunately, I don't have many good things to say about the mindset of the average Ontario voter. They have the same choice as BC voters, so why endorse continued corruption?

Makes one wonder what BC has to do to make Ontario realize that BC is a province, not a remote, far-flung colonial outpost.

Sail Junkie, you are the only one to have asked the right question.
What does BC have to do to make Ontario realize the we are not some remote colony?
We must simply take a page from Quebec's play book.
Threat of separation has been very good for Quebec. It has drawn funding for many legitimate projects to the exclusion of the provinces. They are simply the squeeky wheel and they have been greased accordingly. They got grease because every government that is one needs all of their votes in order to have dominance in the house.
We in our best days will never have that luxury.
What then does BC have that Quebec does not?
Quebec does not have the ability to make it on their own even if they did vote to separate. Viability is not possible where they are. Their only hope is to stay within the lame excuse for federation called Canada.
BC on the other hand has everything going for it should the citizens decide not to listen to the lies of fear mongerers that have kept us down for all these years.
What does BC have going for it?
1. Deep sea ports with access to Asia, and the western USA, Australia ect.
2. Abundant natural resources for electrical production enough to meet our own needs and lots left to export. Gas and oil to meet our own needs and lots to export as well.
3. Renewable resources (trees, fishing) Fish farms are damaging the coastal enviroment so emphasis must be returned to salmonid enhancement projects that rear wild species of Salmon to replace those damaged by mismanagement. It would seem to me that the natives who are net beneficuries of such enhancementr would be willing players in this area.
Again, we will in short order return to self sustained supplies and still have enough to export.

There is NOTHING that the feds say they can provide to keep us here that we couldn't do ourselves better for less.
And we totally eliminate one whole level of governance thus strengthening our economy from the outset.
Name one area where you might think we will lack, and I have an answer for it.
We need not be second class serfs to the federal rabble any longer!!

Koby - I believe your numbers on the combined PC Alliance vote of 57% in 2000 down to 36% in 2004 are in error. They fell from 38 to 30 %.
In that the Liberals under Martin had moved to the right of Chretien, they lost a lot of support on their left in the 2004 election, but more importantly, they picked up enough of the small 'c' conservative part of Harper's party (8%) to defeat them. Say what you will about the Liberals, but they are the only party that can keep the neo-conservatives at bay. Before the Reform party showed up, the neocons were a minority on the far right edge of the Conservative party, because they had nowhere else to go. The thought of them being given permission to determine the direction our country takes is unthinkable.

Sail Junkie - If Ontario voted as B.C. did in the 2004 election, Steven Harper would be leading a majority government right now.

Dear John, et al:

Regarding your thought that Mr. Grewal might not present himself as a candidate for public office. Well I would guess not as there is every possibility that he may be in the slammer. I guess that we will have to wait to see how that shakes out.

I will say that if you are making tapes to incriminate other people you really have to make sure that those tapes are PRISTINE! What sort of person would reveal that the tapes existed and then hold them for almost two weeks? It is apparent to me that Mr. Grewal has no understanding of Watergate History. No understanding of RN's eighteen minute gap.

Also John, it may be that Vancouver Centre was a Progressive Conservative riding for a number of years, but to assume that the "New Conservative Party" can represent a multi-ethnic, multi-sexual, information overloaded urban population, with not a single farmer in sight, is a pipe dream. Do you think that Mayencourt might give up his position to run for those guys?. I would love to make a personal bet with you.

The defining issue in the next Federal Election will be religion and its ties to the Conservative Party. The "Christian" Right should be aware that Canadians are not as fearful of eternal damnation as are our fully materialistic brothers to the South.

The crap about Western Sovereignty is just that. CRAP! You can bet that there are very large interests that would love to see the end of Canada and its programs. They would love to see the BULLSHIT about East and West to make a difference. This is nonsense. Stand up for YOUR COUNTRY, Wimp. I am sick of critics whose only idea of progress is to turn us into Americans. Screw 'em.

Quebec can stand on its own just as well, if not better, than BC.

How is BC having deep sea ports an advantage over Quebec? Quebec has ports. There's even a thing called the St Lawrence Seaway.

Quebec also has abundant energy, they export power. Things like James Bay are in Quebec.

Quebec is also very rich in natural resources.

They also have twice the population and that population is much more unified than BC's. At least they have a common history. A pretty darn interesting one too.

BC would be a basket case on its own. Everything in the "country" would be owned by foreigners. Our environment would be raped, our politics would be more polarized, we couldn't afford an army, maybe a troop of guidance counsellors. For a navy the Fast Cats could be repurchased and mount a few guns in the front while the rear was used as a casino. After 20 years Idaho would probably buy us out so they'd have access to the sea.

trulib

BC 2000

Alliance 49.4% (27 seats)
Lib 27.7 (5 seats)
NDP 11.3 (2 seats)
Con 7.3

http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/2000-results.html

CON 22 36.25%
LIB 8 28.57%
NDP 5 26.54%
NA 1 0 0.99%

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/candidatesridings/bc/index.html

Chuck, the international language of commercew is English. They're holding us hostage so that they can force every man woman and child to speak Quebecois...which at best is a bastard form of French. Most french speaking countries cannot even understand their spoken language.
It may as well be Cajun to anyone else.

BC has everything it needs to be seperate, and still not be 'merican.

Maybe you are darn proud to be screwed every time you go to a federal vote, but I'm not.
I want my vote to count. Even if my candidate isn't elected as an MP, I want the one that is elected to have the same weight in voting that any other MP does.
That doesn't happen federally because it isn't allowed. That's why PEI has more mps than they should.
The maritimes are federal welfare bums. They live off of federal programs and handouts. And why, because their votes are more important than yours will ever be.
Talk about crap!!
Federalists in BC are starry eyed dreamers hoping for good will and peace in our time. There's crap...by the shovel full.
BC is the only province in this poor excuse of a federation that could pull off separtion and prosper for it.
BC is the only province in this country that through that kind of real pressure could have confederation reworked to make it fair for all, with checks and balances that need to be in place BEFORE a deal is inked.
But too many cowards like you are unprepared to rock the boat to get what is really needed here.
Well Chuckie, if there isn't any sand to stuff your chicken head into, try stuffing it somewhere else.

Koby,I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to the total numbers you listed below, not the B.C. numbers.

Chuck Dickens:

The Grewal stuff is looking bizarre. You have to wonder why Harper et al didn't see this guy coming.

It was with great sadness that I heard today that Lorne Mayencourt had been confirmed in Vancouver Burrard. Federally, can a tory win in this... er, "multi-sexual' as you put it... riding? Well, a dim witted, law and order candidate like Mayencourt did surprisingly well provincially. This used to be Kim Campbell's seat... and before that it was Pat Carney's seat... I don't see any chance of Mayencourt running federally. The Tories have their candidate, and it isn't Mayencourt.

Koby - I'm listening. You are a very optimistic liberal. If you are right, the next election will be very good for your party, and all the worry is for naught. In the meantime, you see the possibility of atlantic conservatives propping up the liberals? I see no indication of that - but I'll keep an open mind. Tell me more about Doyle. In the maritimes, I think the situation is reversed for the conservatives: there it is the liberals who are the rural power. While, the conservatives might pick up a couple seats in the atlantic, and a urban seat (like Vancouver Centre) here and there out west they don't have to make big gains to form a government with Bloc cooperation in the next parliament.

Well said, Chuck Dickens...I think there's every indication that those large interests you refer to have played an equally large role in chipping away at Canada's sovereignty for quite some time now...and quite successfully so with the help of premiers like Campbell and Klein et al. They are eagerly awaiting for us to splinter, drooling for our resources, and will continue to consume us bit by bit under the ever waving relentless flag of Commerce...

I think Frank's bang on about an army of guidance counsellors...that would soon be called upon to become grief counsellors... if Idaho decides to buy us out...

Writing from Toronto today, I can tell you: B.C. has to grow up. Stop the "Yuck, yuck" hoo ha, every time somebody says that B.C. politics is weird, crazy, laughable, not to be taken seriously ... British Columbians have to insist upon the same courtesy as other provinces enjoy, when talking of their particular issues.

I mean: Gurmie Grewal ... ha ha (shrug) ... it's just B.C. politics again!

Basi and Virk ... sure, sure, that's B.C. politics! (Dismissed.)

Offshore oil exploration ... sea lice ... softwood lumber ... well, what can you expect from B.C. politics, eh? (End of conversation.)

British Columbians write themselves off every time they indulge in a cheap shot at themselves for nothing more than an easy laugh.

Sorry. It's 30C+ in Toronto with a smog alert, but I'm coming home tomorrow.

On the other hand ... whenever an Ontarian asks me where I'm from -- and I say "British Columbia" -- I just wish every British Columbian could see the way their attitudes soften and warm. "Oh, it's so beautiful there," or "I wish I could come with you," they say, invariably.

Believe me, Ontario loves B.C. for what it really is -- and that ain't such a bad thing, eh?

Perhaps we can thank CanWest for its clever political distortions of the news about a back porch or a provincial budget or a new ferry project or a budget surplus until Ontarians, while trying hard to understand BC Politics, just can't understand why we keep voting for the wrong people.

Aw, gee, BC Mary, its so heartwarming to read of how much Ontario loves our scenery and figures that's all there is to BC("what it really is"). Do they pat you on the head and call you cute pet names, too?
Try asking about proper proportional representation and see the reaction you get.

Wow! Ontarians think we`re the lunatic fringe and I always thought Alberta was. Quebecers probably think English-Canada is `immature` After all we grumble alot but still do nothing about it.

Ontario has about 3 times the population of BC, why shouldn't it decide elections?

Do Ontarians sit around complaining about PEI's 4 MPs even though Ontario is way more than 25 times bigger?

And so what if Ontario is bigger? Is there some sort of rule in the BNA Act that says all provinces must have the same population or the sun won't rise?

I see Ontarians as fellow Canadians. I have yet to feel that Ontario is exploiting me in some way.

I am supprised no one has mentioned the fact that some form of proportional rep Federally would help solve this problem (fear of a conservative victory). This would end the fear of many who lived through the Mulroony years. If I remember correctly the NDP and Liberals recieved a majority of the vote (anti FTA) but since it was split the conservatives got in. Clearly the proportion of the NDP/Liberal vote is a huge majority. Why the NDP and Liberals are not discussing this seems unfortunate. The NDP vote would go up as people could vote with their heart and not strategically.

I would be happy to see STV on a national level. But I just don't want to bother arguing about it when its not on the table. The Liberals never get 51% of the vote yet they usually enjoy majority governments so there is no chance of Martin bringing in anything that reflects the popular vote.

I really shouldn't bother responding, but I have to get this off my chest.

freebc posted 1 Day Ago:

"Chuck, the international language of commercew is English. They're holding us hostage so that they can force every man woman and child to speak Quebecois...which at best is a bastard form of French. Most french speaking countries cannot even understand their spoken language."

This kind of gutless smear, unfortunately heard too often in BC, is one of the major reasons why this province is held in such contempt in certain circles. It does nothing to enhance our reputation, and everything to diminish it. That does have a serious deleterious effect on BC's ability to attract highly qualified people and serious, long-term capital investment.

It may as well be Cajun to anyone else.

FreeBC post was offensive, yes - and fallacious. I haven't the "...trying to stuff French down our throats" since someone complained about the Cornflakes boxes 30 years ago. The notion that there is a concerted political effort in Quebec to encourage (let alone force) the speaking of "Quebecois" beyond the borders of La Belle Province is, sadly, nonsense. There are though plenty of people with whom Quebecois may speak "Quebecois" to, including the millions of people who live in other French speaking places who are capable of understanding French as it is spoken in Quebec without any difficulty at all.

The reason the Tories can't win has little to do with Quebec, and I suspect a lot to do with the fear most of us have that a lot of modern tories are filled with all kinds of ugly, dumb thoughts, and really aren't very nice people.

Freebc I'm with you,were getting it up the hoop in BC from the east,no dought about it.makes no differance who governs in Ottawa,the east gets it all.

A few thoughts:

First of all, I think Stevenson will run in Vancouver Center and have the ability overthrow Libby.

BC would benefit from the dissolution of the dominion, Ontario would not. We have sustainable industry with little of it being intercanadian, as most of our industries our exports, or tech. However, we don't need more countries in this world, we need less government, and stronger communities. Quebec doesn't really want to be its own country, but they do want the ability to set their own culture, to define their own laws, and to make their own decisions, fine, so does BC.

Look at the EU, great idea, shared economy, no travel restrictions, of course, until they start putting a constitution in there that takes away regional authority, and starts try to dictate a common set of laws and governance.

Canada already has a government with powerful provinces, how would an EU thing change the country for the better?

BC wouldn't survive onits own. We'd have to join the US because that's where our market is. Assuming of course places like California don't secede from the US at some point.

Can you possibly make some sense of this statement for me, Frank? If this were true, why wouldn't we already have had to join the States?
Oh, and by the way, you seem to be under the impression (based on this quote) that BC is as dependent on exports to the US as Canada is. Are you aware of how much less of our exports go to the US than Canada's do?
What part of Toronto are you from?

Right bang on, Frank, your comments over the last few days. We are Canadians Coast To Coast To Coast, in heart and mind and spirit or we are nothing. And girls(its ok I'm over fifty)you are correct, Idaho, and its fellow States, have mostly bought us out already.

Now then freebc: I have got to say that,in spite of my many years of total IGNORANCE regarding the seamier side of BC politics, I still thought that I had seen and heard it all. Nope. I honestly thought that I had heard every single kind of vicious backwoods, slackwater, paranoic, misinformed and moronic, slur that has ever been uttered against my Country of Choice. I was right, I had. I have never seen them all in the same place in an organized manner thats all. What you have said has an impact. You must listen to Rafe alot. But listen to yourself, would Rafe be proud of your total lack of understanding ANYTHING! And your pride in foisting this crap on the world using one of his articles, shame on you. bc, bc, bc....

What kind of a type of Canadian do you represent anyway. You call me a coward, but this coward will always stand on guard for thee ..... ah, bc.

Now mind you, I chose to come here. You, likely, dropped down the chute. I knew what it was about Canada that I respected and could be thankfull for before I even arrived. You, on the other hand, could have dropped down the chute anywhere and been spouting the same old horseshit in support of your local warlord that you are laying on us---lo, in modern times in Canada. Why not just you move out to someplace that YOU envision. I think that some of those "Stan" places could use another resident idiot. You might even make them "Independent" Hell!!, hey bc you could even be PRESIDENT! Go for it boy!!

Say what you con-adians wish it doesn't alter the fact that B.C.-Alberta still get it up the hoop from Ottawa and beyond (the east)

Right on Frank.

Dangrice.com, I think you'll find that Hedy Fry is the incumbent in Vancouver Centre. I had my ass kicked fairly soundly the other day by someone with better knowledge than me about this district when I suggested Fry could be beaten by the tory candidate. I'd like to see Stevenson beat Fry there- but he really did have a surprisingly bad time of it provincially. The neighbourhood's clearly going to the dogs. I still can't believe it was close, let alone that Mayencourt won. I wish Vancouver could be a bit more like Ontario? I doubt a law and order panderer like Mayencourt could win a seat in Toronto.

David, please submit to me a list of all the powerful countries of 4 million people.

Since BC in your opinion is being held back by the rest of Canada I assume you think we'd be the cock of the walk if we were on our own? Where's the evidence? Quebec has a better chance than BC would. We have natural resources, yes, so do many other banana republics. We're export-based, so without close ties to our markets we're screwed, again, just like a list of other banana republics.

Canada is over 30 million people, its a member of the G8 for historical and balance reasons. Canada is a recognized name that has more influence than it should based on population, it punches above its weight as they say. Canada is able to enter into agreements with the US with some measure of balance. BC would lose all that.

Why does the US call their proposed free-trade agreement with Central America a "Central American" trade agreement. Why not name the countries individually? Because they're too small. BC will not be able to negotiate with the US or Japan or China, it'd be their way period.

Most BC'ers see themselves as Canadians first and foremost, as do I. I have little loyalty to the province or the dogwood or the provincial flag which I don't even know why we have. I've lived in other provinces, served in the Cdn Forces and have chosen to come here because I think its the most beautiful part of Canada. If BC left Canada I'd leave.

Bye bye Frank and take Hedy( their burning crosses right now on their lawns as we speak in Prince George)Fry and Allan (every thing is beautiful) with you,as for you serving in the forces,what is that suppose to imply? I served in the Pats, big deal!

Not much of an answer, Frank. As a mattter of fact, no answer, just more BS.
First you proclaim your ignorance, and then procede to lecture us.
What part of Toronto are you from?

Unlike you David I'm the 4th generation of my family born in BC.

Still waiting for you to piece together an argument. Something on a higher plane than "everybody else sucks" and "oh yeah".

woody, the relevance of being in the forces and living elsewhere in Canada is that you find out no one else hates BC. Some BC'ers seem to have this paranoia that everyone is out to get them. They have their own worries.

Same goes for you now Woody, let's hear an actual argument from you about why BC would be better off on its own. Something with facts not hyperbole.

People who promote separatism, whether they be Quebeckers or Westerners, really frost my flakes. I'm with Frank —Â*if this country breaks up I'm leaving before the militias start fighting in the streets.

Frank, I posed a question or two. Search my posts. You won't find "eveyone else sucks" etc. BC has the population of eg. New Zealand. They seem to be managing. And btw, how do you know I'm not 5th generation BCer? Try addressing people's points without throwing up endless smokecreens.
Try just one: Why, exactly, would we have to join the States? We're not all that dependent on that market as Canada is and why would they not import from us after independence?
Spite on behalf of their big pal Canada? That's a good one.

David, You attacked me, not what I said. Galling to hear you accuse me of doing what you were doing.

Anyway, maybe you are 5th, maybe your family has been here for 8,000 years, I don't know. My point was only that I'm not from Toronto and if I was I'd still be just as much a Canadian.

Anyway, the fact is I already answered your first question. BC is not a miniature version of Canada that can deal with the US on the same terms. That's why BC is not already part of the US.

As for the second question about exports, yes but trading a little less with the US than Ontario is not a reason to separate. Even if it was, the trade figures with the US are wildly distorted due to the auto-pact as it is, I'm sure you agree.

As for New Zealand, its an island. There are lots of other islands that are countries too. It helps that its neighbour Australia is only about 5-6 times bigger and separated by the sea. If little New Zealand was attached to the US I'd be very surprised if economically it didn't become an economic colony of the US.

I'm happy with the status quo, So are the vast majority of BC'ers. If you have some great argument to make as to why BC would be so well off after separation from Canada please tell us.

You`re happy with the status quo? That`s mind-boggling. This country is in serious trouble. Trying to balance regional interests against a strong central government doesn`t seem to work in the present configuration. Take Quebec out of the mix and we`ve got Ontario dictating national policy. The maritimes and the west (as regions) have no federal input and without Quebec it will get worse in a hurry. We need leadership and we`re not getting it from the politicians. I`m worried, very worried.

You're really very sure of that, Frank?http://www.uni.ca/bc_carn.html
"Nearly 700 of 1,010 readers phoned, faxed, or wrote in to support the suggestion of negotiation with separation as an option. "

http://www.saltspring.com/bobmcginn/bctv_survey.htm
"Should B.C. and Alberta calculate the pro's and con's of separation? -of 1,969 votes Yes 1,739 88.3 % No 230 11.7 %"
:-)

Frankly, Frank, conjectural analyses based on assumptions that require towing islands around the globe are pretty weak even by normal tautological standards.

Still waiting for you to quote the posts where I posted such as "everybody else sucks" and "oh yeah", Frank.
In the meantime, as far as stringing together an argument or two, how about this?
-An end to taxation without representation and being ruled by those far away whose interests and agendas aren't ours and are often at crosspurposes with BC's.
-An extra ten billion dollars a year and the satisfaction of not having sent said off to Ottawa to be pissed away.
-Not having DFO on Sparks Street continue destroying our fish stocks now that they've dealt with those of the other coast.

There are more than a few arguments some of us can string together, Frank.
Why not start with these?

How is it that you think Canada has taxation without representation? And how is it that you think BC won't?

Define "far away". Perhaps the Peace River country thinks Victoria is "far away". Perhaps some in Burnaby think Victoria is "far away". Does the Peace and Lower Mainland get to separate from BC? What isn't "far away"? If the capital was moved to Regina would that be "far away"?

So you think BC sends 10 billion more to Ottawa than it should? That's the key to your entire separation idea? Ottawa "pisses it away" but Victoria is full of wise statesmen? Although BC is a have-not province I assume you don't count shared federal spending as beneficial in any way. Nice.

And the rest is because a federal agency can't protect the salmon from the people of BC so BC should separate and somehow the salmon will come back?

Wow, that's a pretty strong case for independence. Glad you thought it through.

As for New Zealand, you brought them up.

And as for Pat Carney and her "coupon" poll and the other thing. Really really scientific polling there. Good to see the separation people can't afford a real pollster.

asvelte275, I'm happy with the geographical status quo, yes. Here at the Tyee we argue politics all the time so of course we all see problems within the current system. But geographically I don't think many of us have a problem with BC remaining part of Canada.

Of course, the Liberal Party of Canada and its branches, like Canwest et al., can afford to buy all the pollsters they need, right, Frank?
Trust those results over a straw poll of British Columbians?
Buy any magic beans lately?

I was refering to BC, Frank. Canada (Upper and Lower) are not, eg., screwing themselves out of their fair share of seats in the house of commoners (pointless as the place may be since under the Canadian system the PMO is all-powerful).

Ontario couldn't care less about our fish stocks. That's part of the "ruled by those far away whose interests and agendas aren't ours" thing I was refering to. "Somehow" would not consist of magic, Frank, but local management by true stakeholders (ie: the people of BC), and in particular an end to fish farms of which DFO is a proponent.

BC has the same representation as Ontario. BC apparently then does not suffer from lack of representation. Canada needs political reform and many of us on this site would agree wholeheartedly with that premise. But none of our problems would be fixed by breaking up the country.

The DFO is made up of Canadians, not just those from Ontario. I'm sure DFO members from other parts of Canada consider those salmon to be Canadian and they do care about what happens to them. Just as I care about the collapse of the cod in the east. The failures at DFO have nothing to do with what part of Canada various members hail from. As you said, the problems are a government that doesn't put the long-term interests of the salmon first. The provincial government has the same attitude as the federal government. Its a real problem to be sure but has nothing to do with "Ontario vs BC" and nor would it be fixed by separating.

As for the polls, you know yourself that a straw poll is not a representative survey.

Frank,Jim Patterson once stated that in business terms your first loss is your best loss , in other words, dicontinue pursuing that business venture,investment,etc, that same statement also applies to the federal gov't, how much money do we have pour into that shit hole called Ottawa before they acknowledge that there is "even" another half of the country west of them,when?when pigs can fly, which reminds me, Frank did you ever wonder why they refer to Toronto as hog town, well connect the dots,incidentally thats the home of another talking head, Jack (the lipper)layton, as for me Frank, Im going to support the new Western Block Party based in Victoria,in regards to Quebec(separation)next time, there will be encouragement from western people or I suppose one could move to le bel province and work there for the cause, interesting,exciting times are coming, on both sides of this "land". Notice I stated "land" not country, Frank

A poll out today put Conservative support in Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal at 9%.

Do you ever cite any sources for your assertions other than yourself, Frank?
You may find "I'd be very surprised " and "I'm sure " and "I don't know why, but" etc. awfully convincing to yourself, but some of us wonder from whence your omniscience derives.
Its one thing to deride another's sources (after all, who's Pat Carney stacked up against Frank? What's she ever accomplished?), its another to provide one's own.

Provide sources in regards to what?

Do I have sources dealing with a hypothetical? No I don't. I also don't have sources regarding the non-existence of little green men. The non-existence of giant snowmen, sasquatch or what have you.

So the non-existence of a strong separatist movement is pretty difficult for me to source.

I'm sure if such a beast ever rears its head there will be books and polls and other paraphanelia on the subject, until then its ALL conjecture, from your side as well as mine.

woody, actively working for the breakup of the country may be a traitorous act in most countries, but not here. I have little doubt your new party will not get any more support than the old Western Canada Concept but where you place your political support is up to you.

As for the "shit hole" of Ottawa. I don't see too many BC'ers complaining about federal money spent here or handed to our provincial government. Even Ontario complains about the fact more money leaves that province that comes to it. I don't think much of the whining from different provinces that a few bucks more may have been spent here or there and its unfair but that does seem to be the game some wish to engage in. Regardless, anybody wishing to separate will have to pay for much of the same stuff Ottawa puts money into.

Frank OTTAWA doesn't earn money it steals money, who's money do think their handing out,"OURS" and I sure hell don't have to happy or grateful to get "some" of it back, one other thing Frank according to your thread it,s only traitorous when westerns talk seperation but not Quebec or Newfoundland you must have some of Jack o the lip genes in ya.

Well, how about the last whopper you let go? This one:

Rigging the number of seats in the h of c to BC's disadvantage doesn't count? Explain, please.

Ottawa "steals" money? Really, and Victoria doesn't I assume?

I would think you'd be a big supporter of Quebec separatism woody since you sing from the same song book.

The electoral map boundaries are drawn in Canada so that roughly the same number of people are represented by each riding. Obviously PEI still gets 4 seats but in general the electoral boundaries are drawn without any favouritism given to one province.

Ontario has more people than BC, Alta, Sask and Man combined so they get more seats. But an Ontario MP represents roughly the same number of people as a BC MP or a Sask MP.

By statute, no province can fall below the number of MPs it had in 1978. This means that provinces with falling populations gain, proportionally, while growing provinces, like BC fall behind.

Let me break this down for you, Frank.
You made a statement:

I doubt the accuracy of the second sentence, that regarding "the vast majority of BC'ers", and presented two sources to support my opinion.
Now, we're all waiting for you to cite a source other than your opinion to support your opinion.
Understand now?

the major argument that bc and quebec both share is the relationship between the provinces and ottawa. the canadian constitution seperated the roles of the province from the roles of the nation, but politicians, eager to create legacies, have built up legacy projects that have superceeded jurisdiction.

just this week, the health act was indirectly annulled, which is a wake up call. why should ottawa have a right to spent our money, even if it goes back to here.

the government of canada's role is to serve as our voice in international community, and as a means of solving interprovincial disputes, but it has long since been too abmitious. if we can go back to the basics in our government, we will get rid of the grewals and braults.

in the end what we have to do is start from the basics everywhere. what service can community groups provide, what they can't provide, what can municipal councils govern, what can provinces provide, and only then, we give the feds control of things like currency, foreign relations, and air traffic control.

David, you offered crap. Straw polls.

So here's my "source" that people in BC are happy being part of Canada : The absence of any strong separatist party. The absence of numerous articles and letters calling for such a party. The absence of pro-separation speakers in political debates.

If there was a strong separatist movement here there would be BC versions of the PQ and Bloc, there isn't.

As for the declining province thing, they'll no doubt just keep doing what they've been doing, keep increasing the overall number of MPs. So there won't be any loss of representation here.

Nope, Frank just doesn't get it.

Who knows what tiny acorn grows to become the mighty oak?
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/fraser/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=326
http://www.blocbc.com/
http://www.bcindependenceparty.com/

"I have always wanted Canada to survive, but I no longer belive it can and I now hope that British Columbia goes it alone as a viable and wealthy country of its own." Rafe Mair- BC Separation and the Constitutional Veto from Still Ranting 2002 Whitecap Books.
More "crap" from another loser who knows nothing about BC, right, Frank?

So that's why you're a separatist is it David? Because of Pat Carney and a quote from Rafe. Your other arguments, such as they are, are full of holes as I've pointed out but if you believe they're worth backing separation then that's your democratic right. Have a good time with that.

I know a guy who thinks the Canucks should separate from the NHL and form a new league because of the NHL's anti-Vancouver bias.

I don't worry about that ever happening either.

No, Frank, that's not why I'm a separatist. I've been attempting to present a cogent argument backed with the opinions of others. Its a pity you have no arguments of your own to present, no evidence or sources to cite and can only misrepresent the positions of others. Pitiful. I wonder why you bother.
Then again, to quote from another forum "Frank is hilarious." Perhaps you seek to entertain. You're accomplishing that.

Yes, it would be wonderful for you if I had to cite sources to prove Canada was worth having. Then you could sit back and say "nope, haven't convinced me yet". But I don't. You're the one that wants to change the status quo so you're the one that bears the weight of having to bring forth the evidence. You may think you've put forward a cogent argument and maybe everyone agrees that you have, but I don't. I think your argument for separation is nothing more than a smattering of distortions and myths. But then I'm not asking you to convince me, I was simply curious about why you believed in it and what exactly was the reason for your hatred of people from Toronto as demonstrated in your remark to BC Mary.

As for me, I don't believe Canada can be summed up by accounting and nor is my loyalty to it based on quotes from famous people.

Why do I bother? I've asked myself that question many times on this thread.

Frank--- there were only two things that held this land together (1) the C.P.R (2) Medicare both gone or going at least in the national sense,the C.P.R.still lives in the guise of the VIA which is tantamount to a private railway line which serves you guessed it, the greater Toronto area and points east paid with federal dollars.
David in n Bby made it very clear what the federal gov,t mandates are comprised of.

To all of my patriotic, flag waving, friends who have not cared for my opinions here, I respond.
FOR THE RECORD...
Yes, nearly 50 years ago I was born in Duncan BC, on Vancouver Island.
I went to public school paid for by the people who actually worked at jobs at that time. People who by the way were not on a government payroll or hand out of some sort. EI was only a dream if my history was correct.
Part of that time was in a one room school house at about the time when Canuckistan was fighting over internationally significant things like...our stupid flag! While other countries use their flags and coats of arms to show strength and pride, we have a beaver (industrious as it may be...but not very strong on land) and a leaf for our emblems. We didn't even get an ever green tree, that might indicate some permanence. No, we got a stupid leaf that dies and falls off of a tree each year.

Now then, I will put away my mud for a few moments.
While I do agree that there are some really swell people east of BC, lots in Alberta, even some in Sakatchewan and Manitoba, there is an expanse of land that stretches from the Manitoba border all the way east to an area known as the Maritimes. Not Newbrunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland And Labradore. We through no fault of our own lump the four have-nots who have had their hands out to the federal governments for years (prior to the newfies finally being allowed by the feds to have some oil revenue), calling them "the Maritimes". That strikes me as a unifing force. If their borders were simply erased between them and they only had one legislative body, their strengths could come out jointly instead of competing for only the last fish, and for their share of government hand outs.
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO INFER THAT I AM CALLING INDIVIDUALS WHO RESIDE THERE AS LAZY OR AS BUMS! However, the systems and circumstances have made so much of their employment structure dependant of Federal government initiatives, that they might easily be called federal civil servants.
My experiance has been that folks from the maritimes are nice folks generally.
Quebec has a long history of being the flim flam capital of Canuckistan. Not only do they offend me because of their use of the Notwithstanging Clause of our "constitution" to afflict non-francophones...read English speaking, they are generally ignorant asses if you need some help but cannot speak THEIR language of birth. And I don't remember who said that they could communicate with other french speaking countries, I suppose you are right. My reference to the Cajun speaking people for the Louisiana swamps, still stands. I'm sure that if you sit down and strain really hard, the similarities to french may be apparent eventually. I have the same problem with folks from that area who speak what may be loosely refered to as english. I have to strain to get past the accents, but I can understand enough of what is said to get their general drift.
Personally however, Quebec should be allowed to separate and go their own way. We will all be interested to see how long their english-language laws would stand before they were forced by commerce to change them.
Ontarians are nice people generally too. They are whoafully ignorant of the inenequities brought to bear on Canadians of the "regions" caused by their constitutional dominance, and don't really give a rats ass as long as they get the goodies heaped on them. Since they are the seat of federal power and influence, they feel generally superior to the westerners, whose pioneering spirit is still in our collective veins.
We are not a united country. We never have been. We have as a point of unity simply this. We all get to say..."WE AREN'T AMERICANS!!!"
OOOOOHHHHH. There's something to wave a flag over.
Quebec contrary to to some opions could not survive the economic winter that would set in instantly because of their legal structure.
Ontario needs Quebec to keep their more than fair share of power and influence peddling.
The maritimes, even if they were to unify under a single legislative body, still couldn't garner enough economic muscle to survive on their own, so, they too are dependant on a federal structure.
The Prairies, Man, Sk, have some valuable resources but are rural economy based. Nice if you live in the 1800's but a little tougher in these years. Also totally land locked save for Churchill, they are dependant on Ontario for shipping their valuable crops.
Alberta, rich in various resources, (not just oil) is unfortunately for them land locked and must ship through some part of what is know as Canada, to get their stuff out. Despite all of Ralph's sabre rattling, they could not successfully opt out unilaterally.
I will take a moment here for a history lesson. Hitler needed the oil of the Ukrain and the ports of the Mediteranian to make his vision of Germany work. That's why all great nations of the world have had ports as a single factor determining the countries strength.
BC then, because of positioning on the map is strong by geography first. We have what others envy. And while we may not have it all, we do have more than enough to make it work for us, and still not be swallered up by the yanks.
And while it would sure be nice to have Alberta too, it is logistically impossible to have them come with us without BC declaring unilateral independance from Canuckistani tyranny FIRST!
I do not suggest that Canuckistan might not be re-workable, but at this time, I don't think that there is the will nationally for the two biggy provinces to part with any of their powers offed by constitution.
That's why I hate the country of my birth. Not because of the people generally, but because of the sham of a constitution that was imposed on us by England first, and Pierre secondly when he and his government repatriated the damn thing.
It would have been better left there, and re-worked here.
"Viva BC!!!"

Well said Freebc.There are many,many pissed off people in both B.C. and Alberta. Screw Ottawa.

What happen to all you federalist supporters out there, one would have thought that this site would be besieged by its supporters,I guess that warm fuzzy feeling simply evaporated when that other Liberal unelected govt. the ALL MIGHTY CON-ADIADIAN SUPREME COURT struck down that last tread that binded this land together, Medicare. Shit, now the only differance between us and the yanks are, the tans and money and yanks have them both.

Woody! I forgot about medicare...
Now that we have that jepordized again, we really aren't better than the yanks at all!

Someone told me that Canuckistan was looking at hooking up our currency with the Euro. I can't think of a single thing more retarded than that. Of all the currencies in this world to hook to, that would be the last one that I would want to buy into.
You can hate the yanks, their people, their governance, their language, Hollywood's influence ect. BUT! Even the most ardent of 'merica hatin', marxist leninist, Quran lovin', muslim extremist trade in US dollars. US bucks buy anything...anywhere....anytime.
You hate the states? Life's a bitch. Deal with it baby!

About 20 yrs back there was this song the lyrics went something like ,where have all the flowers gone long live happiness, the current version would be, where have all the federalist gone long live happiness.

freebc and woody. Clearly you guys hate your country as freebc said. I have no problem with that, some people in every country hate theirs too. So why stay? If I hated Canada I would simply leave and go somewhere I liked better.

If you love the land and the people but simply hate the government structure, well a lot of the rest of us want to see political change too.

freebc, just want to correct your history. Hitler did not need ports in the Med. He already had good ports in the North Sea and the Baltic.

Ports in the Med are useless if you don't control Suez and Gibraltar, which Hitler never did.

Also, the Ukraine is not where Germany went for oil. The 4th Panzer Army was sent into the southern Caucasus while the Sixth Army under Paulus was to take Stalingrad and prevent the 4th from being cut off. The oil was in places like Grozny and Baku which are not part of the Ukraine.

Frank---"Hate" pretty strong language,can't recall anyone on my side of the fence useing that word and no were not leaving, were going to change the social structure and fabric from within, your top court got the cart rolling on this one, thank you.

woody, I know you yourself didn't, but I would never purposefully misquote

freebc said "That's why I hate the country of my birth"

Anyway, I've been accused of hating Canada too, when Mulronrey rammed thru free trade I was pretty negative.

However, as you just said yourself, I also believe in working to change the country, not destroy it.

Frank-- well then get on board, why support a proven ( about 100 years now) western canadian biased, corrupted eastern political system.
Do you not think that Im not working for the betterment of a fairer,honest,open political system for my kids, grand kids,etc, that also is what the Quebecers want betterment for their kids, thats all, imagine the diversity we could have, not happy with the culture, polictal system in this part of the country , you could then move to Quebec and live and try out their culture and politial system in my view this would be a win, win for all,and don't forget if still unhappy with these two systems you could move to that humid, sweaty,BO induced hell hole called hog town, no need to dicuss what polictal system they have,you already living it,isn't your hoop sore enough already. Come on get on board Frank

except woody that love of Canada doesn't stem from the political structure. We're products of a long and glorious history. Whether its the early building of Quebec and Acadia, the fur traders, the settlement of the west, the shared sacrifice of Lundy's Lane, Ypres, Vimy, Ortona, Normandy and the Reichswald, the fact is we've been in this together for a long time. Most provinces contain a high number of people that may have been born in a different province, we move around, we inter-marry.

The political structure may suck but the entire country itself is home, not just one small part of it.

frank, my geography was not accurate and you are quite correct. I admit to sloppiness in my rendering of history.
However, while Hitler did have northern sea ports, they were very vulnerable to blockades and attacks. It was this that forced him to the southern ports near Greek and Macedonian and Italian lands. The suez canal was of little importance. He only wanted room to manuever. Something his northern ports didn't have.
As for the oil, I lumped the areas together much the same way as I tend to do with communities in the lower mainland, calling them all 'Vancouver', something which I'm sure annoys many.
I love the province of my birth. Mine is a province that oozes possiblity at every turn. We are unfortunately saddled with a political system that stifles any shred of hope our people might have. We will in this system, never have a shot at being a respected partner in confederation. What we shall always be is the younger sibling in a family of self centered bullies who toss their weight around unfettered.
When I was with my cranky first wife, my own mother waited patiently for the "worm to turn".
Canada owes BC lots. I believe that nothing will ever be recovered unless the people of BC stand up and simply say NO! NO MORE!
You are right too about the word hate.
Nothing changes until you hate the thing you are now wanting to change.
Very few people quit smoking until they hate smoking first.
I hate my country because of the polical system.
Want to ride along and change it?

come with me.

freebc, no problem on the history/geography, I understand why you used the term "Ukraine", you were just using shorthand for the whole area. I disagree on the Med ports, the Brits didn't even need to blockade them, Gibraltar blockaded the whole Med so I think they were useless.

Anyway, the Tyee is absolutely full of people who are ticked with the way Canada is governed. I support every reform of the system, from abolishing the Senate to bringing in a new electoral system to toning down the power of the PMO, etc. I understand what brings you to hate your country's political system. And its your right to hate the country itself but Canada is about way more than the current government.

For me there is just no "BC". Its Canada. If tomorrow we had a referendum on abolishing provinces I'd vote yes. I think BC is a beautiful area of Canada but I have no loyalty to the province beyond bragging about the weather to my buddies east of the Rockies.