We never found out what happened between the time he left Fred and Cathy's and the time he was pulled over. We never found out where he'd gone during that time, who he'd seen, who'd seen him.

We never found out either because no one dug into it or because no one had the "space" to publish the story.

The massive neglect the Campbell drunk driving story received was the diametric opposite to the massive magnifying glass under which all things NDP or Clark had been placed.

That moment was the cementing of what had been strong suspicions of bias into a firm conviction that CanWest Global was in reality a de facto arm of the Campbell government and that neither the Campbell government nor CanWest Global could be trusted with the public interest in any way. What has occurred in the intervening time has made that conviction stronger.

Wow. This is the most scathing indictment of Patricia Graham's leadership yet. Are you telling me that the Sun buried not only the now-infamous Peg Fong story, but also Charles Campbell's article. Are you telling me that GLOBAL, of all media outlets, was about to investigate The Sun for their odd coverage of this massive scandal? This is just insane, in my opinion. Anything else we haven't heard yet?

I'm still just a j-student,and I wish I could say I was optimistic too. Hopefully, I'll be someone who helps restore trust in the profession, rather than bleed more away. But up to this point, I've heard that journalism is hard work and it never gets any easier, just more routine. Perhaps it's that routine that needs to change. But with seemingly so few jobs, perhaps wide-eyed students like myself will never have an opportunity to break that routine.

I'm still just a j-student,and I wish I could say I was optimistic too. Hopefully, I'll be someone who helps restore trust in the profession, rather than bleed more away. But up to this point, I've heard that journalism is hard work and it never gets any easier, just more routine. Perhaps it's that routine that needs to change. But with seemingly so few jobs, perhaps wide-eyed students like myself will never have an opportunity to break that routine.

yet another cover up by the global boys ,a 7000$ sundeck, bad.. a criminal conviction and to say nothing about money laundering and bribes... well thats good cause its liberal? our mayjor news outlets have let us down badly doing the corporate dance for these thugs.. john daly gone from lurking in bushes and uncovering graft and corruption in our leaders... to doing snow reports on tv brrr poor vancouver .. what a sham but get used to it cause right now boys and girls thats the only stories your gonna get from the sun province, t/c..

people need to read between the media's lines(suspect/challenge everything you read) in order to pick up the patterns of duplicity (including this e-rag...) waged against all the "lunch-buckets" and "brief-cases" out there(especially at election time)lest we become the tail that the rat eventually eats(it will anyway)

Charles, thank you for this rare look inside the Vancouver Sun. Business Journalist, one small correction, I think. Fong's article and Charlie Campbell's opinion piece were spiked, killed or maybe even erased, but they weren't buried. You can hide the evidence, but you can't remove the truth.

Gee, it looks like the Sun muted this story. Why would they do that? And another question: Why isn't it illegal for a giant media corporation - CanWest Global in this instance - to give large contributions of money to one political party?

Patricia Graham wasn't the editor at the time of Campbell's arrest. Neil Reynolds was. But the issue is not so much who was there as whether editors feel they have to look over their shoulders.

It's about time that any and all progressive political forces in this province strongly considered a total boycott of Canwest Global. How does the willful participation in propping up the BC Liberals not come off as anything except fascism?

Yah ,that's quid pro quo politics for Canada, this for that, you sratch my back i'll scratch yours. Always has been always will be baby.

How do we even know that the premier's even quit drinking? Oh, that's right, we have his word, and we ALL know what that's worth. Since extreme rightwing TRASH like Rich Coleman are so willing tp propose blood tests for pot smoking drivers, isn't turnabout fairplay? Shouldn't the premier be willing to undergo A WEEKLY BLOOD TEST from now, until the next election that shows that he HAS quit drinking? And is there not now reputable science which can analyse the differnce in facial muscle stricture between a smile and a grimace? And finally, SHOULDN'T CANWEST BE SUED FOR GROSS DERELICTION OF THEIR DUTIES TOWARD THE PUBLIC??

Until CanWest does some genuine investigative reporting on the Liberal Party's shady activities, they have no credibility. It's been a year since the RCMP raided the offices of Basi, Virk, etc., how long must the public wait?!

Bill Tieleman has an excellent article in Georgia Straight today (13 Jan.) linking Gary Collins to the original hiring of David Basi.

Darryl Greer; you are asking questions, thinking about the future, not without some doubts. Keep thinking for yourself and digging under the surface and you'll find that routine is something others have to work at.

I would like to see a provincial version of the CBC, and an independant provincial publicly-funded newspaper that doesn't have any advertising. An online-newspaper would be great, everybody in B.C. should have access to better QUALITY JOURNALISM with local news. Unfortunately reading long articles on-line strains the eyes. Researching, investigating, doing interviews with world reknown experts on news topics is not a good economic-model for the Asper family, since it increases overhead expenditures.

Charles, Hi. Your piece is both honest and provocative. Continuing in that vein, I'm wondering whether The Tyee embodies the standards you'd like to see in journalism. Best regards.

sorry, that would be Frank Magazine, not just any old Frank....

I would rather see Campbell have to answer for his reckless political decisions and betrayals of the people of this province than for what he has done in his private life. That said, there is a real hypocrisy about the relentless pummeling Clark, Wilson and Tyjabji took both from the media and Collins and Campbell, when Collins and Campbell themselves, expect a "nice and tolerant, hands-off, no questions asked approach" when it comes to overlooking their own personal peccadilloes. We have a media who seems happy to comply with their every wish in this regard and who also helps them re-stage their comeback appearances.

Never a truer statement than when Charles Campbell links "how we define ourselves as a society" to the integrity of politics and journalism. I think a lot has been lost, that a trust has been broken. I don't think it's ever easy but more courage is needed, by all of us... by those that report and by those of us that depend on that reporting to help keep a free society alive and well.

Now that V. Palmer has gone on the record saying the BC Libs will win the election, he should spend the next four months justifying his comments. Regardless, he's tainted his views by proclaiming the lens he sees the BC political scene through, and so now how can he report, analyse or comment on anything that doessn't match up with his prediction? What's more, B. Tieleman has out Vaughn Palmered the V.P. himself with his article in the STRAIGHT this week. That article is something I would've have expected from VP himself. Instead, he's writing about the NDP. Again, it appears that VP will lens everything from now on in through his prediction (agenda?) that the NDP will lose in May. Not good journalism. Things do not look good for fifth estate these days... Society will surely pay dearly for a weaker and weaker media. Just look at the US (if you can bear it) and see what the media is doing on behalf of the agenda-driven powers down there. As result, more and more scandals of manmoth proportions are exposed after they've down the damage and not mercifully before too many people get hurt. I personally fear living in a society populated by the disillusioned, the corrupt, the distrustful, the disrepectful, and ultimately the uncooperative - in essence, political anarchy will surely lead us to becoming a highly policed and regulated society just to keep it functioning, irrespective of values and principles like "free press" and "liberties" and such notions. We are in a crisis! But you'd never know it by reading the Asper newsletters, er, newspapers these days - including the Black Press, too (remember the anti-Nisga'a editorial decree in 1998?)

I remind people that this staged, scripted, pathetic excuse for an apology was all paid for by the taxpayer, the ones who got all their taxcuts snatched back in endless user fees and new taxes, as well as the wealthy who got to keep 95% of theirs...

Norman spector, when are YOUR COLUMNS GOING TO BECOME HONEST AND PROVOCATIVE...? I and other tyee posters will be most pleased to kick your butt in debate, AGAIN, anytime YOU have the courage to post...of course, you're used to SETUPS, like you get at canwest and in the globe and mail...but then, that's the rightwing for you, if they make even the most niggling criticism of the right, the most negligent wrist slap, where a knock-out punch is required, they think they're being courageous. I do agree however, that charles campbell's article is a good one...

Charles Campbell's article is both honest and provocative. I wonder, however, how he feels as a journalist when his column is followed on this site by libellous allegations for which the writer adduces no proof. I know of abosolutely no newspaper in the world--of whatever political stripe--that would print as a letter to the editor some of the comments his article has attracted. Since Charles Campbell is a fine journalist, I'm sure he knows to which comments I'm referring, though I don't expect the authors of the comments and perhaps others to agree with the assessment that they are libellous. Since Charles Campbell's article is about journalism standards, I'm wondering whether he approves of the Tyee's. And, since he still sees some merit in the Sun--Vaughn Palmer's column for example--I'm wondering how he would compare the standards he left and the standards with which he is now associated. I hope he is continuing to monitor reactions to his column, as I am sincerely interested in his response.

When the Tyee itself publishes a broader spectrum of columnists and not only politically correct left lib types it will be in a better position to criticize the equally selective CanWest VanSun.

I would enjoy a debate with Norman. What in particular are you finding libellous? I find that only the right-wing voices here are spewing unjustified nonsense. How can we start our litigation against them?

All of the online CanWest newspapers have a SOUNDOFF feature on which a load of bile is spewed on specified topics. There is no comparison with the garbage that we see and read in the Vancouver papers and what we read here in the Tyee. There is never any proof or reasoning in what we read in Vancouver newspapers. People like Judi Tyabji and Gordon Wilson are discouraged from rightfully suing the Vancouver media for their nonsensical harassment.

The Tyee editors delete the libellous content that appears.

Zeke, why would the Tyee be in a better position to criticize if they posted more right articles? Why can they not criticize now? I am sincerely interested in knowing why. Also why are you bringing political correctness into this and associating it with the left and "lib"s?

Well, mr spectre of norman, if you're truly concerned about something FAR worse than libel, I suggest you check out current "SOUND-OFF" threads in the newspapers of your owners, CANWEST MEDIA. AS you are of jewish descent, norm, I JUST KNOW, you're gonna wannna send a letter to your owners, protesting such posted HATE SPEECH as: "THE POOR SHOULD ALL BE PUT IN WORK CAMPS;" "SELLING DOLLS WHICH GLORIFY JACK THE RIPPER IS NOT AN OFFENSE AND INSULT TO ALL THE WOMEN WHO VANISHED IN THE DOWNTOWN EASTSIDE;" "EUTHANIZE THE POOR!" and also another little bon mot referring to a dumpster diver as "A HUMAN GARBAGE BAG."

You could ALSO explain to us Norm, why it is that you do NOT find TWO INCH HEADLINES, like the ones a month ago in the Vancouver Sun blaring "BC'S UNEMPLOYMENT RATE THE LOWEST SINCE 1981" that turn out to be based on the fact that the bc liberals have STOPPED COUNTING EVERYONE WHO HAS QUIT LOOKING FOR WORK, AND THAT ONCE THESE PEOPLE ARE FACTORED IN WELL, WHATTA YA KNOW, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS UNCHANGED AT 6.9%!!! FURTHER READING OF THE ARTICLE REVEALS THAT THE BC LIARS LOST 22,600 JOBS LAST YEAR, A FACT YOUR RECENT COLUMN IN THE VANCOUVER SUN ABOUT GORDON CAMPBELL SOMEHOW OMITTED!!!???

Well, Norm, as you're so concerned with truth, justice and RESPONSIBLE, ETHICAL JOURNALISM, why I just know Norm, you're gonna write a letter to the vancouver Sun demanding THAT YOU BE ALLOWED TO EXPOSE THESE LIES IN A SATURDAY COLUMN, RIGHT, NORM? We'lll be waiting to hear from you, normie...

Oh, by the way norm, any failure to respond MUST be considered as yourself GOING ON RECORD as being IN FAVOUR of a media monopoly using two inch headlines to LIE about the bc liars fixing the economy...I can't HEAR you Norm...?????

I like reading Norman Spector's thoughtful, well-written comments in the Tyee. I don't agree with many of his points however they make me think and are a valuable addition to this site. I don't like reading vitrolic, ad hominen attacks on him in response. Surely as Tyee readers we can engage in dialogue which is frank and considerate and which incorporates different perspectives?

Kudos to you Charles to have the courage to act on your integrity, leave CanWest and write this article reflecting the situation that many people understand is the overriding censorship at all CanWest media. It seems to me that the Tyee's intent is not to push right-left doctrine, but FAIRNESS and TRUTH in reporting what has been and is increasingly suppressed by CanWest and other mainstream media. Although I understand that reporters/journalists employed by CanWest need their paycheque (alternative employment is not as flourishing as the Liberals and their media cohorts peddle) they must be deeply bothered to see the bias and lack of reporting on critical issues of importance to British Columbians. I respect Charles for leaving this behind; one door shuts a better one opens. CanWest will pay the price with dwindling readership. Norman: The palpable anger/frustration expressed by some people on the Tyee in the comments is simply a reaction to the coverup mentality they know exists in the mainstream media on behalf of the Campbell Crew. It is also a reflection of the pain that so many people have had imposed on them by the unethical/heartless actions of the Campbell Government. I believe in a mix of a government encouraging private sector intiative yet holding a strong social conscience to protect and meet the needs of everyone in society, particularly those who are unable to cope, through no fault of their own. Hon. W.A.C. Bennett had the right formula. I also know blatant corruption when I see it. Maintaining the Campbell network in government is not in the best interests of British Columbians. If everyone acted with courage and spoke out instead of sticking their heads in the sand, like so many of the so called business elite that I know, conditions in British Columbia would never have been able to sink to the level it has in B.C. today.

Zeke pointed out, "When the Tyee itself publishes a broader spectrum of columnists and not only politically correct left lib types it will be in a better position to criticize the equally selective CanWest VanSun." This illustrates a big problem in journalism that journalists are not trained to think (especially in science reporting) and are supposed to treat all opinions on a topic with equal unbiased respect. One of our local Asper family-owned newspapers has a writer, Jon Ferry, who consistently denies global-warming. Global-warming is not a controversial topic among climatologists it is a fact, yet this writer presents it as if there were some sort of debate. There are not multiple sides to every topic/story, some ideas are just wrong and have been proven to be so by testing and experimentation in different places around the planet. Balancing truth in journalism with lies in journalism is not appropriate.

May I comment on Mr. Spector premise that the comments threads on The Tyee constitute 'journalistic standards'?

It seems to me that the willingness to avoid imposing an editorial point of view on these letters is the great strength of this new medium. In most editorial departments that selection process results in only those letters that meet the approval of the editors making it into the discussion. Which prevents the discussion from becoming a discussion at all, really. Doesn't it?

When all the thoughts of people are expressed in their own words, you will get great diversity. You will not agree with or approve of most of it; nobody will. You'll read it, or not. Snort derisively, nod thoughtfully or laugh out loud. But you get to read it.

I strongly admire the policy here of deleting only those comments that seem actually to break laws. I love being able to hear what all these people are really thinking and feeling. Where else is anything like this available? I don't care if they have journalistic standards. I can filter what I read and make my own judgements, and frankly I find I get quite a lot from those posts that make me want to howl the loudest.

Plus, of course, I enjoy hearing the howls I inspire in some of them. Thank you David Beers for your continued benign lack of 'journalistic standards'!

Kim Anderson, did you bother to read any of the postings before you stated that " I don't like reading vitrolic, ad hominen attacks on him in response" or is it that you don't know what "vitrolic, ad hominen attacks" are? There were no such attacks in response to Norman.

Also when you say that Norman Spector's writing makes you think, how could this be possible? Norman was claiming that there were libellous comments in this thread when there are none. So, Kim, are you Norman Spector in pen drag? :)

Yes, I see that the libellous postings have now been removed--which is wise, since the law applies to paper and to web publications equally. That leaves, in the question I posed to Charles Campbell, the diversity of opinion on this site and whether it conforms to his standards of journalism. I begin with the premise that all newspapers are biased to a greater or lesser extent. This premise has been confirmed in my mind since I've been publishing a daily critical review of French, British, US and Canadian papers. From this experience, I've concluded that it's advisable to read as many papers as possible, in as many languages as possible--and to compare and contrast the coverage on specific issues. That said, I don't think I've come across a single newspaper that has less diversity of opinion than the Tyee. I'll illustrate this point by comparing the Tyee to the three newspapers for which I write and therefore know best--the Globe and Mail, the Sun/TC and Le Devoir. I don't see on this site the right wing equivalents to the Globe's Heather Mallick, Rick Salutin and Naomi Klein. I don't see voices on this site as critical of the NDP as the Sun's Vaughn Palmer and Paul Willcocks have been of the BC Liberals. And I don't see anyone here who matches Le Devoir's Michel Venne or Josee Boileau or Michel David. Like Zeke, I find it disingenuous for anyone who professes that the Tyee purveys "truth and fairness" to criticize the mainstream media. In my view, their criticism is political, not principled. To return to my initial premise: all media are biased to a greater or lesser extent. The first challenge--before doing something to reduce the bias--is to acknowledge it. Because--as Virginia Woolf wrote--if you don't tell the truth about yourself, you can't tell the truth about others.

A quote from the Charles Campbell article: "...columnist Vaughn Palmer offers this province's most effective criticism of our Liberal government." And with this statement we can all see just how sorry the current state of BC media really is. So I've been wondering when Palmer is going to tell us about that David Basi fellow's links to the world of crime! I certainly remember him screaming (!) into a CBC radio microphone about catching "BC's premier taking money out of the cookie jar that was intended to help BC's poor." (This was Palmer raving about poor Mike Harcourt.) Now Charles Campbell calls Palmer's work BC's most effective criticism of the current BC government??? This really is getting pathetic.

Norman Spector, gee maybe I have it all wrong, but I thought your frequent postings here were meant to provide tht crucial balance in left-right dialogue. While you may chortle at the comments here in the postings as being left wing bilge or whatever, The Tyee at least allows readers an opportunity to respond to a story without the heavy-handed political editing of statements and letters that have chased so many of us away from the newspapers that pay your bills.

The Vancouver media has had one standard to follow for the right wing and a much harder standard for the NDP. The Tyee has been helping to provide balance that the Vancouver Sun and Province cannot.

Norman Spector is very biased. He came from Ontario to help Bill Bennett with BC's first neo-conservative government. Like Gordon Campbell, Bill Bennett would make false claims about a variety of matters. The result was an ever deapening recession. You cannot reduce wages and throw people out of work and then falsely claim record job growth and amazing economic growth. It is a lie and it was and is not happening.

Well said, allan. Norman, I think you are a nice, intelligent person but obviously your perspective needs to be broadened regarding the quality and quantity of the 'TRUTH AND FAIRNESS'that is allowed to filter through the CanWest screening process. I HAVE SEEN IT OPERATE, PERSONALLY ON PERSONAL ISSUES Two days ago Kim Un-Yong the V.P. of the IOC lost his Appeal regarding serious corruption charges. Many people were concerned during the bidding process in Prague that he sold out his country's bid in order to become VP. This story when charges were intially laid was KILLED after an intial BREAKING NEWS announcement on CTV. Where was the local CanWest coverage on this important story other than a footnote I am told, but no comment regarding the questionable result of then bidding process and who won in Prague, as it was covered in international papers. Why? Could it be because CanWest was a large supporter of the both the local Olympic Committee Bid and a large financial donor to the Campbell Crew? - Protection of vested interests at all costs including the publics' right to know the truth. CanWEst should never have been allowed to control the estensive network of media that they now hold. Norm, enjoy your morning, but WAKEY WAKEY!

Norman Spector asks if the Tyee lives up to my high journalistic standards. No, not always. Some Tyee stories are not as dispassionate as I would like them to be. And I don’t believe media proprietors should be relentless and overt in their support of individual political parties. Yet the Tyee receives some of its funding from the B.C. Federation of Labour, which actively and explicitly supports the NDP. However, it’s also true that I think the broadsheet daily in any community has a special obligation that comes with its enormous power. It’s our community commons, and it has to work very hard to ensure it is an open commons. When it fails, and other media spring up on the margins in response to that failure, their focus will inevitably be narrower. It's also true that I felt the shadow of ownership much more at the Sun than I do at the Tyee. At the end of my tenure, I was not proud to work for the Sun, which I felt was regressing. I am proud to work for the Tyee, which is an imperfect but lively experiment that is adding new and needed voices to the media landscape. This is partly a function of my own temperament, political outlook, and interest in innovation, but it’s also a function of how the owners conduct themselves. As for The Tyee’s post-article discussions, some of the posts are depressingly simple-minded polemics. Others are offensive, which is why the editors delete them. But overall the forums create an opportunity for a new kind of civic dialogue. I’ve seen how letters are handled at the Sun, and they provide a generally an open forum. I have also seen letters killed by the unseen hand. I’ll take this wild forum over that one, especially when pointed, contrary voices such as Norman Spector’s weigh in. I have a question for Norman, while we’re at it. As a Sun columnist and former ambassador to Israel, do you believe the story that the Saudi ambassador to Canada had been rude (uncivil!) to the Israeli ambassador deserved to be front page news in Friday’s Vancouver Sun? (As opposed to the Sun’s initial report on the South Asian tsunami, which appeared somewhere on or about page A16?) Further, if the ambassadorial squabble didn’t deserve to be on page A1, why was it there?

It makes the 'Neo-Con right' very nervous to have other points of view expressed because part of their fascism is to shut down dissent either through ownership of the public airways and discourse, where their few talking point prevarications can be desseminated, or through character assassination. Rarely, is there a criticism in the media about the Campbell gov't which is not preceded by a disclaimer which reminds the reader of some NDP infraction. It is laughable and why I would not spend a wooden nickle purchasing the papers. I especially enjoyed the 'thoughtful examination presented to the dear reader' of the Cope and NPA parties before the election where it was 'respectfully concluded' that really, the NPA was the better choice. The articles do have entertainment value. Which is why I do read it at times in the cafe. :) I recognize that media ownership regulation changes have put many journalists in a position of having to choose being able to practice their craft, or maintain their integrity. I wouldn't want to be in that situation.

A point I would like to add, is that bias has been around in the newspaper business from the beginning. What is new to people of my generation is the use of the paper for misleading propaganda which entails many mistruths and lies which are outrageous and potentially threatening to civil society. For me, this is the difference between The Tyee and the Vancouver dailies.

I don't have any problem with the Tyee's distinctive and left wing perspective. It was not set up to be "balanced"; it was set up to provide an alternative to the mainstream media in Vancouver.

Of course there are the occassional rants in the comments section and, unfrotunately, some of them can be libelous. This is as much an artifact of the web as it is of any particular publication.

On te other hand, it does not make the "neo-con" right nervous to have dissenting opinions expressed. Why should it. The entire point of the various types of conservatism which are loosely bundled under the neo-con banner is the challenge the prevailing liberal orthodoxy from the right; to challenge that from the left is just as worthwhile.

Writing from a libertarian perspective, I have no trouble getting the occassional piece published by the Tyee. But, were I to write a sterling defence of the Liberal Party in British Columbia and all its works I would be amazed if the Tyee published it. Again, it is about creating a distinctive voice.

There is no question the Tyee would be a better publication if it had contributions from thoughtful, experienced, political commentators like Dr. Spector. And it would be improved if it included fewer predictably anti-American, often ill-considered opinions from rather dull columnists. But, so what? Right now the Tyee is one of the best publications in Canada and it is only going to get better.

Articles like this one, which underscore just how badly MSM in the provice is being run, need to be published. You don't have to be right or left to want a higher standard of journalism than the Canwest operations provide. Thanks Charles.

Exceptionally good points, lisa. I have noticed the same thing, that if there is a criticism of the Campbell government in the media somehow the NDP gets pulled into the criticism as well, often their past "infractions" taking precedent over the "new" story as if to deflect from the Campbell story, understate it and control the damage for the Right. That is not news reporting, that is being a good PR agent.

In general, in the mainstream media, there seems to be a lot of tiptoeing around the tulips, a very cowardly carefulness not to go too far, not to upset too much or too many, so that most of the major columnists end up reporting little about little... making the papers boringly repetitious in their safeness, of little "new" investigative information, even fewer details, and largely a waste of time to read.

Charles, Again, I appreciate your honest response. One slight clarification before responding to your question: I take it when you refer to the Tyee's "slightly narrower focus" you're confirming Jay Currie's suspicion that it's unlikely the Tyee would publish his "sterling defence of the Liberal Party in British Columbia and all its works." As to your question, I do not know what stories competed for front page attention in the Vancouver Sun on Thursday July 13, which was the day the story about the Saudi ambassador being hostile, rude and antagonistic toward the Israeli ambassador--and giving him the cold shoulder--was published. Perusing other front pages across Canada that day, however, I find on the front page of the Globe and Mail a story about Sidney Crosby's hockey jersey. In the Toronto Star, I find a story about junk food advertising. In the Calgary Herald, I find an AP story about mudslides in California. In the Ottawa Citizen and the National Post, I find a story about Canadian diplomats' expenses on receptions, etc. In Le Devoir, I find a story about the latest at the Montreal Automobile show. Having regard to the (unrealistic) level of optimism surrounding the Mideast peace process with the election of Muhammed Abbas--and recognizing that locally generated material of wider significance always carries a premium--I have no reason to dispute the placement of that particular article. If more Canadians knew how visceral the Mideast conflict is, there would have been less surprise over the weekend when the latest round of violence dampened the optimism. Now, moving on from your specific question to the point I sense you're really getting at. Were you to ask me whether there's an excessive amount of attention paid to the Mideast conflict in CanWest papers, I would answer in the affirmative. Were you to ask me why, I would answer that ownership matters. As an aside, I've criticized many articles on the Mideast in CanWest publications, when I thought they were over the top. I would go on, however, to note that in a survey conducted by two McGill University academics a year or so ago, Toronto Star employees reported the greatest degree of owner intrusion in the newsroom. That's been the situation over the years, as the Star has functioned virtually as a house organ for the Liberal Party of Canada. In a sense, then, you can look on the founding of the Post as analogous to the founding of the Tyee--it was designed to act as a counterweight to the centre-left consensus in this country. And it was quite explicit in asserting this mission. However, there are two important differences to note: First, there is greater diversity of opinion in the National Post and in any CanWest paper than there is in the Tyee. So, in that sense, I would say that you've moved down the journalism standards food chain in leaving the Sun and joining the Tyee in part, as you acknowledge, because it is consistent with your "political outlook." Second, there seem to be an awful lot of posters on this site who believe several rumours concerning Gordon Campbell's personal life that have been swirling about , and they seem to have believed this for some time. They also seem to believe that the Sun--including fine journalists like Vaughn Palmer--are not reporting these "facts" and therefore are not to be believed in general. I note that the Tyee removes this material as potentially libelous--which is implicit regognition that your management cannot prove the veracity of these rumours. My question to you is: Do you not think as journalists you have a responsibility to your readers to clear up this matter one way or the other? You have, in Barbara McClintock, one of the finest political reporters in BC. Why not assign her to investigate the allegations and publish the results either way? Or does the Tyee's political agenda take precedence over investigative journalism, even if it serves to stimulate confusion in the minds of your readers--surely one of the greatest sins a journalist can commit?

It's not often I find myself agreeing with Mr Spector (if that is who wrote the above), but I also believe these rumors about Campbell need to be investigated. This way they can be put to rest one way or the other.

Sorry, I forgot to include my name on the the posting above at 1/17/2005 1:09:40 PM

Excuse me for butting in, but what news service in Canada has ever assigned a journalist to regulrly chase down allegations and speculation? While you are at it you might also explain your interesting twist of argument in attempting to brand the Tyee with the same brush that virtualy every Can/west publication is now noted for. I've seen some prtty good investigative reporting at The Tyee over the past year and, although perhaps not of the same volume of several major Canadian newspapers, certainly on a ratio of filler, brass cheques and other plain crap to investigative copy, the Tyee certainly comes out well ahead of any BC news source. Now, as far as mideast issues, I suspect Canadians would be a lot more interested and quite frankly pissed off with Israel if they had a better chance to understand what it going on. I certainly wouldn't go to any Can/west newspaper or to you Norman if I wanted a balanced view on that ugly situation. A front page story on a spat between a Saudi embassador and an Israeli diplomat seem quite a stretch for the Vancouver Sun even on a slow news day, but given its track record and the actions of the Asper family to portray Palestinians as terrorists, I would find it quite hard to accept the story made it on merit alone. Was the story written by a Sun staffer, did it quote any BC contacts and where there balancing statments from all sides in the spat?

Who is it at the Province that balances Jon Ferry? Who balances off against Vaughn Palmer at the Sun? Or even Norm Spector?

The National Post serves up a wide variety of opinion?

Clearly there is no balance at Can-West publications unless you think "conservative" balances off against "neo-conservative".

It is interesting to consider the Tyee as analogous to the National Post in the sense that it was founded to counteract a percieved media bias. Of course, the tragedy of Apserization is that it has made Conrad Black look like a newspaper giant. Which is all the more reason why the Tyee is an esstential corrective.

That said, if the left has any hope of winning the next election it would be wise to drop the entire idea of going after Campbell personally. That sort of attack strategy, while it will warm the hearts of the Campbell haters, will have no effect at all on the mass of the electorate who have moved on. there is lots to attack the Liberal government on; wailing on Campbell just makes the left sound juvenile and bereft of a compelling election platform.

Jay Currie; I think you read far too much into the seething anger that surfaces here in The Tyee in regard to Campbell. Yes, we rant, yes, supporters of Campbell who come here to praise the drunk are as likely as not to be subjected to a good bit of ridicule and yes, you are right, the great soft middle voter is not likely to sign onto a lot of the suggestions that pass through these cyberpages. At least not to start. You see, your missing the point of The Tyee. It isn't an official opposition news agency. It's a news agency that happens to run news that has a slant somewhat left of Can/west thingies. I would presume a lot of "lefties" hang out here because the news doesn't have a Liberal or corporate bias, is tied closely to BC issues (although there are occassional traverses to far flung places like a shopping mall in Northern Minnesota), and because the Tyee produces very good copy. There are probably a good number of NDPers who regularly visit, but that certainly doesn't make it an official NDP house organ. In fact, I would guess that based on current membership numbers from the NDP and the Green Party, a larger percentage of Greens see this as an avenue to push Green's fiscally conservative values than do NDPers see it as home. I haven't seen to many brass cheques in here on how great the BC Fed is. In fact, Jim Sinclair is obviously not on the "must get a quote from" list at the Tyee like the head of Vancouver's Board of Trade enjoys in the local Can/westers. There is no weekly summary of labour elections, in comparison with corporate appointments that sometime clog more traditional newspapers who offer up free pic and bold headline space to such silliness. If Carole James' sister or brother suddenly show up with a regular column here at the Tyee, say covering economics and politics, I might agree there is a concern. If an NDP candidate or MLA gets caught with his or her hand in the cookie jar or somewhere else it shouldn't be, I certainly would not expect to see an article in the Tyee telling me what a wonderful new job he or she has been offered and isn't it good he or she is "putting their family first." In fact, I suspect if the typical voter ever got wind of the Tyee and began following the stories and following debates, rants or however you paint it, voter opinions might shift significantly. Remember, in BC, unless you buy the Globe&Mail you are not going to read newspapers or get much electronic media that don't have a Liberal bias. I'm certainly not saying the G&M is soft on the NDP, but it doesn't appear to go out of its way to give a Liberal spin to its copy. In short Jay, The Tyee is a great place to run off on issues that influence this province. I would imagine as we get closer to the election a lot of people often ranting here may just be busy quietly helping people to campaign to get rid of Campbell & Co. But I supect most will still be clicking in to the Tyee whenever they can.

Norman, you’ve answered my questions, sort of, but in doing so you’ve begged a few more. Was the methodology of the McGill survey questionable? Highly. Is there diversity in the pages, particularly the editorial pages, of the National Post? Just enough that you can say there’s some. Does The Tyee purport to reflect a wide range of political opinion? Absolutely not. Did I say The Tyee’s focus was "slightly narrower" than the Sun’s. No, I just said "narrower." Did the Barbara Yaffe column appear on Friday or on Thursday? You’re right, Norman, it was Thursday. My apologies to all concerned on that point. But let’s stick to one issue here. You say you have no reason to dispute the placement of Barbara Yaffe’s column on a major daily’s front page, in part because of its local content. Let’s begin with the one substantive element in her rather vague column. At a pre-Christmas gathering hosted by Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe, the Saudi ambassador, according to the Israeli ambassador, said Israel is an apartheid state that is violating the rights of Palestinians. Shocking. Only several weeks ago. On the other side of the country. Stop the presses. Let’s get it on A1. Ahead that day of Sun stories "U.S. ends unsuccessful search in Iraq for weapons of mass distruction", "Gaza terrorists attack in bid to head off peace talks," or "Two million expected to fall deeper into poverty." Oh, I forgot. International news doesn’t play well on metro papers’ front pages. So the Sun could have gone with the ever-popular miracle tsunami survivor tale of Vancouver’s Don Morrison, who lived while his ex-wife died just miles away, or perhaps Ralph Klein’s ludicrous call for a mass slaughter of old cattle. The only thing local about Yaffe’s column was that it emerged from the ambassador’s pro forma meeting with the Sun’s editorial board. I sat through many dreaded, useless editorial board meetings with Israeli consuls and ambassadors. Did my colleagues dread them, and see them as I did -- a sop to our lord and master, the late Israel Asper? They may feel that they can speak for themselves. Now, forgive me for being obtuse in my earlier post. When you address to the point you sense I’m "really getting at" -- "whether there's an excessive amount of attention paid to the Mideast conflict in CanWest papers" -- you say there is. That wasn’t what I was getting at, and I could handle more coverage of the Middle East. I think there’s an excessive amount of attention paid to one side of the conflict, and I say this as someone who has a very low tolerance for Arab suicide bombers’ far-flung apologists. I could cite chapter and verse examples of suppressed opinion and lack of balance, but I’m trying to be brief. Please, let some of the coverage seriously examine the contentious issues, such as "Is Israel actually prone to apartheid-style policies?" or "Is that wall really such a good idea?" or at least "How did Israel get those nuclear weapons and what risk do they present?" Such failures in the Sun, which purports to be our civic commons, drive me crazy, and that’s partly because they diminish the good reporting that so many people at the Sun actually do. Please, Tyee conspiracy theorists, read Vaughn Palmer’s columns on the gassing of ICBC boss Nick Geer if you want an example that will suit you. And finally, while I’m pissing everybody off, I’d like to say that the one thing that consistently makes me proud of the Canadian media, despite all the rest, is that we are less prone to trade in rumour and innuendo than our British and American counterparts. Private lives of public figures generally stay private, and that’s as it should be. The Tyee posters who think differently irritate me even more than Gordon Campbell does.

A few things... It is important to remember that Israel is a country like our own where many people are against injustice of all kinds in wherever ways they may be manifesting. Many Israelis are against violence of all kinds. Many Jewish people are left! If someone in another country read only the Post they would think Canadians are reflected by that newspaper. We know that is not true. Almost 50% of Americans are against GB and his policies. Yet, there are some who would like us not to believe that this is so. I think it is better to frame it in terms of the political powers that be rather than a country and it's citizens. There is so much many North Americans don't know about Israel. An interesting book is, "The Israelis" By Donna Rothchild. It might be interesting to review it and I believe the author has a website. I think this extreme movement afoot has a lot to gain if it can continue to divide people along economic, class, gender, cultural and racial lines. I think we should just say no. Another point re Mr Campell, while I agree rumour is inappropriate, he is a public figure and as such should conduct himself in that matter. As far as his drunk driving conviction goes, that is a public issue not a private one, no matter what the spin is and for obvious reasons.

Yikes, sorry for the errors, as well, it is Rosenthal, not Rothchild. I want to say my comments are about a general trend I've noticed in public discourse rather than anything else. I am not a regular reader of comments.

Charles, part of the appeal of the Tyee is that it is prepared to create its own news agenda. In principle, and, increasingly in practice, the Tyee reports stories which MSM will not touch. (Why they will not touch them is fascinating and one of the best features of your insider's article.)

I wonder, however, if the car crash of journalism we see at the Canwest properties is as much a function of the failing business and technological models newspapers represent. Mass audience requires an increasing obsession with personality, celebrity, fluff, service pieces and all the rest of the embarrasments of "legacy media" in order to keep spilling the barrels of ink on the dead trees . The audience is melting away for both newspapers and, increasingly, TV news.

The Canwest tendency to treat newspaper readers as another species of television viewer is not helping either. Unlike TV, a person who migrates from the newspaper to getting their information online is not likely to be coming back "next season". Dumbing the paper down, narrowing the spectrum of opinion, reducing the number of reporters covering the news, cutting back arts and books coverage - all contribute to the dispensibility of the newspaper a day habit.

Newspapers in Vancouver have survived a lot over the last hundred years - they may not survive the sheer stupidity of Canwest.

Charles, The McGill study was conducted by two academics, Stuart Soroka and Patrick Fournier; its results were published in the Globe and Mail. Frankly, I'm surprised you're surprised to learn that owner influence in the newsroom is greatest at the Toronto Star--the "Atkinson principles" are built right into their charter. Perhaps you're surprised because those principles are more consistent with your "political outlook" and you've just not noticed the effect on coverage, story placement, opinion pieces etc. As to CanWest papers, there is no doubt that they have a pro-Israel bias, just as the Toronto Star has a Liberal bias. This does not excuse either: As I mentioned, when I see something that is over the top--such as David Frum's recent speculation that Yasser Arafat died of AIDS--I'm the first to criticize it in my press review. That said, British Columbians can easily read Rick Salutin and Sheema Khan and Heather Mallick and Rami Khouri and Naomi Wolf and Daoud Kuttab and Riad Saloojee on the Mideast in the Globe and Mail for quite a different perspective on the wall and all the other issues you mention. Moreover, even on the Mideast there is more diversity in CanWest papers than there is in the Tyee on provincial politics. Even I have written more critical stuff about Gordon Campbell than you guys have about the other side. You say that CanWest's pro-Israel bias "diminish(es) the good reporting that so many people at the Sun actually do." Why then does the anti-Liberal/pro-NDP bias of the Tyee not diminish the good work you and every other contributor to the Tyee do? Why would you leave the Sun and contribute to a "narrower" publication if you are truly interested in quality journalism? I'd say the double standard suggests that your criticisms of CanWest are grounded not only in standards of journalism, but in "political outlook" too, and that they must be taken with a grain of salt. Now, the Yaffe story. You referred in a previous posting to my service as an ambassador. I've also been around senior levels of government for many years. In all these years, I've never witnessed anything like the behaviour described in that article and I therefore think it was newsworthy. Let's not forget that the ambassador making the charges represents a country where homosexuals are flogged, where gender equality is considered subversive, where citizens don't have the right to vote and where Christians are not permitted to pray to their God. Indeed, human rights protestations made by a representative of Saudi Arabia must be taken with an even larger grain of salt than yours against CanWest. Finally, unlike several posters on this site, you and I agree that Vaughn Palmer does fine work at the Sun. I'm sure the Tyee could find someone equally talented to expose the shortcomings of the NDP and trade unions. That it has not done so suggests that the agenda of the Tyee is about politics, not about journalism, consistent with the funding you receive from the BC Fed. Moreover, given the number of "conspiracy theorists" on this site who condemn Palmer and others for not reporting the "truth" about Gordon Campbell's private life, I'd still like to know why Barbara McClintock and all the rest of you Tyee writers have been hiding the "truth" too.

What astonishingly weak rebuttals from the pusillanomous messieurs spector and currie. Norm, Palmer only looks good, because all the other shill columnists (excepting hume, patterson and Knox are so astonishingly bad.

I read the Toronto Star for many years and am surprised by your comments, Norman. I really don't believe that the Toronto Star is an oppressive publication, but if I can find a convincing article, you will have opened my eyes.

As far as liberal media goes, the Tyee is the equivalent of the Toronto Star as far as I am concerned and the Star has the largest circulation in Canada even without being sold much outside Ontario. I find it difficult to believe that you think the CanWest papers have a less narrow perspective when I see CanWest's constant recycling of minor NDP scandals as a backdrop to many stories that are supposed to be about the BC Liberals.

(Continued) Oh, spectre of norman, to pat canwest and the globe and mail on the back, because things are worse in a thirdworld theocracy like Saudi Arabia, is an astonishingly ineffectual argument. The Tyee offers a far broader range of coverage -it will post almost any rightwing shill in the comment section,unlike Canwrest's "sound-off" feature where the rightwing mouthbreather is king, and where a leftwing poster has to threaten to go to the CRTC five times to even get posted. How does the Tyee compare with the Vancouver Scum, which has the unmitigated nerve to run "an opinion piece" by Phil Hochstein warning of the ndp's secret agenda" after ignoring black thursday, January 17, 2002??. A paper that has the premier's brother praise his genocidal neoliberal policies, a paper, and a media empire that is, in short, not fit for a diarhettic vulture to void its bowels upon.

Mr Currie if your formula for the ndp to win the next election is to avoid the subject of gordon backstabber's character, then I fear you are even more intellectually puny than I had first surmised...

Test: BOLD

test: bold

You are losing credibility with me, Norman.

Here is a link to the article that Norman Spector referred to and please notice that the Vancouver Sun and another CanWest paper the Montreal Gazette score worse than the Toronto Star:

http://209.47.161.50/articles/GlobeandMail/globe030212 .htm

Here is a quote from the article:

But a substantial proportion (56 per cent) also feels that news stories often reflect the owners' views and interests.

This may be cause for concern: Only one journalist in 20 believes owners' views should affect news coverage, but more than one in five believes they do so.

These single values conceal considerable variation across newspapers. Comparatively few journalists at the francophone newspapers in our sample believe ownership affects news content at their papers (La Presse, 16 per cent; Le Devoir, 31 per cent; Le Journal de Montreal, 43 per cent). Similarly, a minority of journalists at The Globe and Mail (39 per cent) and the National Post (44 per cent) believe their owners' views influence news content.

Scores for other newspapers are higher (Ottawa Citizen, 67 per cent; Toronto Star, 71 per cent; Montreal Gazette, 76 per cent; Vancouver Sun, 83 per cent). Most journalists at these papers think that owners' views and interests influence, for better or for worse, the content of news pages.

END OF QUOTE

For me personally, when I saw that way that Jack Layton's tax cut for the poor was totally ignored by the Vancouver papers and at the same time they pounded mercilously on his inheritance tax, the narrow bias of CanWest media was clearly evident.

Editor - please insert the end bold. - thank you. At least in Toronto, you have other newspapers to work for. In Vancouver you are stuck working for the Sun or Province.

Good work, sue clark.

I apologize for the error--the result of writing from memory. I should have double checked the figures for other CanWest papers. In previous columns on the issue of media bias, I had been comparing the National Post--which has been singled out for considerable criticism on this score--and the Toronto Star--which over the years has not been. Yet, the Post's figures are much lower than the Star's. (Not surprisingly, Le Devoir and the Globe do better.) I think the reason the Star has not been criticized for bias over the years is that its left of centre biases are more acceptable in Canada. It's obvious that the Vancouver Sun's current biases are resented by staff. Still, the question remains: why would anyone leave the Sun for the less diverse Tyee? Is it, perhaps, simply that Charles' "political outlook" makes him more comfortable with the Tyee's biases than with the Sun's?

I can't take the bold any longer

Norm, I think it makes a good deal of sense for Charles to have left a relatively uncongenial political atomsphere at the Sun for the Tyee. After all, if I recall he was hired more or less directly from the Straight.

More interestingly, the rise of the net means that there will tend to be more "bias on their sleeves" publications like the Tyee on both the left and the right. (The Western Standard, while wedded to dead trees, is a good example on the right.)

There will, moreover, arise a set of indy editors who - to sound like a geek - are gong to aggregate RSS feeds which appeal to particular niche audiences. The net will give all of these folks a flexibility which will leave legacy media wondering what happened to it. Especially if you combine all of that with "electric paper" which you can easily read on the Skytrain and which, as mobile band width increases will let you see video of last night's winning goal. Which may all happen before the NHL strike is over.

Jay You make a very strong point. Consumers have moved from department stores to boutiques, and the same may be happening with respect to information and the media. The Tyee, on the Left, is part of this niche phenomenon. Aside from his "political outlook," Charles may have made a very wise career move in signing up as a contributing editor. Personally, I still believe there's room for credible publications like the Globe and Mail and the Washington Post. I may be wrong. Meanwhile, I don't think any serious person would argue that the Tyee is as diverse or as balanced as either of these publications. Nor, I would argue, would it be accurate to say that the Tyee is any less biased than the Vancouver Sun. Which is not in any way to say that the Tyee is not worth reading. It is. And, like you, I hope they're around for many years to come. But let's not encourage any false advertising about what they are and what they aren't. Let's not encourage them to throw stones at other glass houses. And let's be mindful that niche publications with political agendas can stimulate "conspiracy theorists" (to use Charles' term) to all kinds of wild imaginings and rumour-mongering--to the point of not being able to see quality journalism, such as Vaughn Palmer's, when it is right before their eyes.

The Washington Post does not provide a diverse viewpoint. It certainly does if its being compared to the Wall Street Journal but that's not the measuring stick.

For a paper to be called "balanced", its views must orbit around around the political centre of the nation it resides in. The other opionions offered within the paper would be both to the left and right of that centre.

Using that logic, the Star is a more balanced publication than the Post or Globe because its centre of gravity is liberal, matching that of the population it serves. It then offers views from the left and right of that centre.

The Post is not a balanced pub, and nor is the The Tyee, because their centres of gravity are further to the right and left than the Canadian population as a whole is.

This is probably why the Star is such a successful publication, it looks at where the public is at and reflects back those views. Pubs such as the Post on the other hand are political because they do not reside in the political centre, they are instead trying to move that centre.

The reasons why a person leaves a job are generally complex, and that’s the case with my choice to leave the Sun. But at the core of the decision was my belief that the Sun is becoming a less effective commons for civic debate. Norman, you say B.C. readers can get an alternative to CanWest’s biases by reading the Globe and Mail. I think you are starting to get my point. I can better ensure that diversity of opinion in B.C. (not Toronto, with its Toronto Globe and Mail and Toronto National Post and Toronto Star) can be enhanced by working with the Tyee to provide what I don’t see enough of in the Sun, and other B.C.-based media. I agree that the fragmentation of media has a downside, although it’s a complex issue. It’s one of the reasons a community commons like the Sun is so important; we need a place where we can have conversations that are shared across the political spectrum. I feel that the Sun is failing in that role, and I wasn’t prepared to sit there and continue to be disappointed. (I’m not sure you understand what it’s like to be a minion in that environment.) Does The Tyee offer stories and perspectives that aren’t available elsewhere? Is our civic conversation enhanced by that? I think so. Not in every way that I would like, of course. But our community is better for it. I’m proud of what The Tyee has accomplished and I’m proud to contribute.

At the risk of continually being ignored by right-wing conspiracy theorists who have tagged Tyee as the vehicle of the radical NDP left, I would suggest one of Norman Spector's biggest short comings as a columnist is his lack of understanding of how common people percieve the situation. "Consumers have moved from department stores to boutiques, and the same may be happening with respect to information and the media." offers our former ambassador. It would seem Norman kinda missed the big box phenonenon where the great unwashed now get their vitals, but then those ugly forms of later-day capitalism, probably aren't apparent in rarified circles. I also find it interesting that Spector when confronted with allegations his main bread supplier (Canwest) is found to be quite biased in its coverage of mideast issues, then offers up the Globe&Mail's wider range of columnists as a balance. Does that mean it's fine the nations largest chain of newspapers is feeding readers bullshit on certain issues, because another paper isn't? And rather than leaving the Vancouver Sun because of changing political view, perhaps Charles and others are leaving because they are sick of the interference and the lack of fairness there. In that context, coming to The Tyee to report might have just been a simple economic decision. We all have to eat. But no, some people who have done quite well at the public trough thanks to right-wing governments can theorise left-wing conspiracies with the best of them. ***Lisa; I certainly wasn't branding all Israelis as being responsible for or in support of their country's brutal treatment of Palestinians or it's half century of non-compliance with international rules. But like the Americans who have sent troops into Iraq to kill Iraqis and are being roundly criticized for it, Israelis, regardless of their political stripes, have to accept their country too is tainted by the actions of its leaders.

This barbed conversation would never occur on the pages - either in print or electronically - of the Canwest or Black chains, or other publications I know of (Canwest's "Sound Off" lacks credible articles - and credibility generally - to draw in commentators, not to mention that The Tyee is essentially commercial-free and free of cost; moveover, I'd be surprised if they'd let their name and owners be besmirched as it is here).

It is this approach that broadens the diversity spectrum more than anything else, because everyone is welcomed and no one is turned away, whatever their ideological stripe (which is something I'd expect no less from a labour-supported publication). Even in radio, the producer and the host have their fingers on the mute switch. It is those aspects of this particular publication in contrast to the others that make all the difference in the world, and I literally mean the world.

As for all flaming that goes on in these pages, this is part and parcel of the medium itself. Akin to the foul-mouthed spectators at a sporting event shouting obscenities at the players from the safety of the stands (save for the NBA, I suppose). Relatively harmless stuff but annoying as hell for their offensiveness and lack of respect for others within earshot. Still, that's the price of protecting the voice of the little person. As for the ongoing vitriol of some, I can only hope as this medium matures, and the novelty of spewing subsides, then folks will get to the substance of their grievances, rather than subjecting others to the symptoms. Still, I cannot help but wonder what the tone of readers/flamers and contributors to The Tyee will be like should a James-led NDP form government? If these threads descended to the same level of name-calling as is being heaped on Gordon Campbell, et al, if that occurred, then this mob-mentality will do nothing but send the thoughtful elsewhere or at least it will make these threads more and more irrelevant. Fact is, I read them less and less these days. I do glance at them now and then hoping for some quality comments or insights, but I am rewarded very sparingly. But then, perhaps over time all the unhappy folks with a tendency to write their thoughts down will have vented sufficently and moved on, or they'll learn to offer thoughtful solutions, encouragements, quality analysis and other worthwile information and insights that make reading rewarding (I know: dream on). If not, then some people, myself especially, will have learn to scan past the vile diatribes or else stop coming here. Even so, this doesn't take away from this publication's intent or practise, which should be kept intact.

Thanks for reading my thoughts.

Kit : I think the articles and comments are two separate things. I'll often read the article but not the comments because I just don't care enough about an issue to want more. Comments would never stop me from coming to the Tyee though.

The saddest thing for me is that the only paper I can get delivered that I can even read is the Globe and Mail...The ****** Mop & Pail, that I wouldn't line my garbage can with when I lived in Toronto. At least my money is not directly going to Mr Asper and his psychophants.

All of the major newspapers in Canada exhibit bias of one sort or another, and to varying degrees. The Washington Post does a better job than most in the US, and better than any in Canada. Here's something I wrote recently in the Globe and Mail that explains why: "In preparing my daily press review, I read about 20 newspapers every morning. In the case of only one paper was I uncertain which political direction it was leaning. The Washington Post was the sole paper — in the U.S. election or ours — whose endorsement of a candidate (John Kerry) was not what I had been expecting. In part, this is a tribute to its tightly argued editorials on all the major issues — sometimes siding with Mr. Bush, sometimes with Mr. Kerry. Then there were the superb fact-checking articles that took both candidates to task with equal ferocity within hours of any whopper. The Washington Post's stellar coverage was also due to the paper's aggressive ombudsman, who regularly takes up readers' complaints of bias. The ombudsman is uniquely independent among counterparts at other papers, being barred from ever applying for another position at the paper. As a former newspaper publisher, I also admire The Washington Post's policy of enforcing a strict separation between its news and opinion pages. The paper's executive editor (who does not vote in presidential elections) decides on the composition of the front page — including headlines, story placement and photos — and is responsible for all news decisions. He has nothing to do with the editorial line of the paper, which is the responsibility of a separate editor." No Canadian paper meets these standards, and it shows daily on their front pages. They should all be read with caution, in my view. On the opinion pages of the Washington Post, the reader will find a range of views from Michael Kinsley, Richard Cohen and E J Dionne on the Left, to Charles Krauthammer and George Will on the Right. Far from catering to preconceived ideas--which one poster suggested was the essence of a balanced newspaper--the Washington Post challenges its readers to reflect on the best arguments of opposing camps. In Canada, the Globe and Mail comes closest on its opinion pages to meeting these standards, in my view.

Comments are important. I'm sure some swift marketing-type could gleen reams of insight into people (consumers?) if only he could ensure their statistical validity (which he can't, but it's a fun excercise to speculate). Nevertheless, how we respond to information is a reflection of our understanding of it and ultimately of ourselves. That is why "letters to the editor" sections are so popular, including to some degree these threads. Mind you, their usual anonymity lessens or invalidates many messages. Still, this particular forum can be used to "out" an important issue in a way that could not happen in traditional media (mind you, it would have to see the light of day through the usual reportage of accepted journalists; that is, someone who's willing to put their name on the line). There's value in this medium, and a lot of it remains untapped. For example, the candid thoughts of a former Sun writer on his former employer has been illuminating. We need more reflective comments from former opinion makers like this, if only because public contrition is redeeming.

There is an old saying that states that action speaks louder than words. Thus,Norman, the fact that you 'click' onto the Tyee regularly and actually take the time to post your comments, regularly, speaks VOLUMES about what you really think about the quality of the Tyee and it's intent. You are part and parcel of the 'spirit' that drives the Tyee. Do I detect that you are actually intellectually stimulated by all of this chatter!

and KJ would stand for. . . ?

On the surface, I like the approach of the Washington Post, if that's how it is, as described. I can only wonder how it got that way in contrast to how things are not done here - take the Vancouver Sun, for example, and in particular. Moreover, I can only wonder if this situation of editorial and news bias in Canada would have been minimized if there had been an inquiry into media concentration as asked for by many concerned folks when C. Black was making his moves across this country in the '90s? As it was, nothing happened and here we are, rehashing the topic, that, from my perspective, is being driven by many disappointed members of the public (and, I suppose, by the organizers of this media outlet, who obviously feel they've been underserved by the estavlished media chains). I know that I don't have a subscription to any of the majors because of their incessant biases or general irrelevance. I have access to the Van Sun and I am appalled by the fluff and blatant editorial favouritism displayed in that paper. "Back in the old days" circa M. Nicols, et al, the BC media's state of affairs seemed to be better. Because I haven't done any analysis between the two era's, I can't put my finger on it, other than it just seemed that way - notwithstanding my previous comments on the "fluff." However, for a better take on it than mine, see this link: http://www.langara.bc.ca/ljr/LJR2004/sun.html where, I quote, "The evident concentration of corporate control in Canadian media has left many in the province feeling uninformed and devoid of the entire story." Cheers!

At the risk of disappointing you, Wonderwoman, I confess to clicking and posting and being a royal pain in the ass on right wing sites too. At the risk of outing Jay Currie, he pops up in the same neighbourhoods. While I can't speak for him, I try to confine myself to quality sites--so I guess you have a point.

...and that stands for?

terrible. not the incident, but the article. learn to write.

ah, the Wash Post may or may not reflect the mainstream views of America. I know its to the right of me (I read it a few times a week) and somewhat to the right of the Cdn mainstream. Still, I applaud the attempt at the Post to get it right regardless of whether I think they achieve that.

Now this is not targeted at you Norman although it is your point I want to debate.

The quote was : "Far from catering to preconceived ideas--which one poster suggested was the essence of a balanced newspaper--the Washington Post challenges its readers to reflect on the best arguments of opposing camps."

My point is that left and right are pretty much meaningless except as relative to the editorial position of the paper. For example, Norman's list of "lefties" is not a list I would have come up with and I doubt many here would consider those names to be to the left of them. They're simply to the left of Norman and the editorial positions of the Post. If the Post in fact reflects the mainstream views of America then fine, his final point about opposing camps holds water.

However, do Cdn papers such as the National Post, Globe and Mail or Vancouver Sun provide the same? In my opinion they do not because their editorial positions are further to the right than the politics of the country they're in. Doesn't mean no one in the country shares those views, they do. But they're not the majority. If the "opposing camps" they publish are the neo-cons and the Martinite-type Liberals then they are so out of whack that their "opposing camps" becomes laughable because even those published views from the "left" are to the right of half of Canada.

I agree that the so-called "left of.." is a relative description; and the process to position a rightie as a leftie is a long and hard fought for strategy by those with the wherewithal to shift the centre line in their direction. For example, the neocons must be splitting a gut for having Kerry positioned in the public's mind as left. But of course when compared to Bush...

Congratulations, Norm! It takes a bright, broad minded man to agree with a woman. Having met you years ago back in the days of the Bill Bennett era. You have lived up to my expectations.

Norm, I fear regular Tyee readers have already stumbled on my terrible secret....

If not they can go read my blog....

In fact, the Tyee, left as its persepective is, manages to combine some decent reporting, interesting commentary and out of the way but important articles into a package which is an vital read for British Columbians. No mean feat on a limited budget.

Whatever I think of your views, Norman, I'm happy to see you on this forum. I believe you're the only person on the right who actually listens to others...even if we have little sucess in changing some of your extreme views...and attempts to answer with reason. For everyone here is column from the US which is applicable here in Canada if you change Republican to Liberal or Conservative. A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised. All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer adheres to these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune. It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university. Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer funded roads. He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

Boy, you think the media handling of Campbell was just awful...move to Alberta. Our Premier gets drunk, goes into a homeless shelter and picks a fight then cries on television and admits he's an alcohalic. Then has the audacity to wonder out load about how much more work he can get done when he's capable of getting up early and being at work by 10. Even worse, he gets re-elected. The media should have had a field day with this one, but there's been little if any controversy.

I appreciate what Mr. Campbell says about keeping innuendo & rumour out of these forums, and will try to curb my own tendency to drift that way. And, like KJ, I found his remarks about life as a Sun scribe interesting. That he and other staff had to sit down on occasion with officials representing the Israeli government is just bizarre.

5:50pm.....and peace reigned over the thread.

I think...lets see, end bold was a /B in brackets, right? So There. Did it work?

Maybe that?

Nope. B/ in brackets doesn't work either. What the heck is the tag for bold and end bold anyway?

All ready tried the end tag...

Click your heels three times...

I liked Mark's comments about having to resort to reading the Globe and Mail after coming to Vancouver from Toronto. I felt the same way. I feel that the Vancouver Sun in-depth articles are fluff in comparison to the the G & M. The Globe writers have more style and better content.

Sincerely great input from Norman Spector. I did not know about the newspaper ombudsman.

First I'm going to add a closing bold tag though I don't know if it will work from here. I am quite happy to have discovered the Tyee, as previously it seemed easier to find online commentary on local issues in the San Francisco Bay area or New York City than any coverage of BC issues that didn't seem to come from a PR firm working for the Fiberals. It is quite evident that the CanWest excuse for a news service is so biased in their political coverage that they should be perhaps required to temporarily cease publication during actual election campaigns or clearly identify their supposed news items as the election advertising that they are. The Glen Clark deck seemed to get live coverage almost 24/7, where is the equivalent coverage of the premier's brother-in-law and his questionable dealings and contracts, or the adventures of Basi and the other aide, or the government aide who keeps getting busted for dealing in Victoria, or the BC Rail sale, or the off-shoring of BC Hydro and BC Medical data processing. IMHO this government takes corruption to new heights, but if you only watch Global News or read say the Province you would hardly be aware of any of those curious stories as more than a blip here today, gone tomorrow and replace by a rehashing of something that the NDP did in the last century. I never thought I would look back with fondness at Wacky and MiniWac or the Zalm - or that I would see the Zalm speaking at a labor rally, but sadly that is how neo-con and sordid the governance of the greatest place on earth has become. At least W.A.C. Bennett realized (maybe because he lived there) that the "heartland" was the true source of BC's wealth. It was the men and women working in the forests, mines, farms and ranches who created the wealth of this province and WAC realized that in order to "exploit" this wealth it was necessary to create the infrastructure - build dams for power, build roads and railroads to get coal, logs, lumber, produce, etc to market. The Fiberals seem to think our wealth was created on Howe Street, but all they do there is shuffle paper and take a bigger and bigger share of the cream off the top and share it among their Fiberal buddies while treating we the people in the heartland like orphans, closing schools, hospitals and withdrawing services. Sometimes it seems as if they want everyone to move down to the lower mainland - but do they really want that, don't they have enough congestion already. Haven't they paved enough of the best agricultural land in Canada in the Fraser Valley yet? Can the Downtown Eastside really absorb all the people becoming redundant in Kamloops, Prince George and myriad other parts of the interior. Anyway, thanks for starting this needed forum, I recommend the Tyee to anyone I feel is interested enough to appreciate it. I have two suggestions for the editors (?) or whatever you call the folks who moderate this site and especially the comments section. 1. Please delete the subsequent duplicate entries when submitters apparently repeatly submit their comment (I guess until they see it). 2. Get on top of these threads that turn to permanent BOLD, it is just slightly less irritating than STEADY CAPS. Bye the way, who are "," and ",," Keep up the good work, we have an interesting and important four months coming up.

Mnlogger, what a great post, please come back to the Tyee again. For anyone that's interested I have just located the complaints box at the CRTC site, in which written comments can be entered, anonymously and otherwise. I encourage a everyone to post as many complaints about Canwest media there as possible -just Google CRTC, click the "COMPLAINTS" tab at the top of the page and enter your complaint, leave general delivery for your address if you want to be anonymous, I have entered the first complaint that I know of about the DISGRACEFULL TWO INCH HEADLINE used to brag about the fact that BC'S unemployment rate is 6.1%, UNLESS YOU DON'T COUNT ALL THOSE WHO HAVE GIVEN UP LOOKING IN WHICH CASE THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE REMAINS UNCHANGED AT 6.9%!!, and that Canwest treacherously attempted to use TWO INCH HEADLINES ON DECEMBER 7, 2004 TO BURY THE FACT THAT THE BC BACKSTABBERS LOST 22,600 jobs last year...thank you... Oh, and norman, yyyyyyaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn! Ah, that's better!

"The evident concentration of corporate control in Canadian media has left many in the province feeling uninformed and devoid of the entire story." (http://www.langara.bc.ca/ljr/LJR2004/sun.html)

When I need some real news, I read The Tyee, The Monitor, Panorama, Der Spiegel, Sueddeutsche Zeitung, Frankfurt Rundschau, Tagesspiegel, daily Tagesschau, The Guardian, El Pai and Le Monde Diplomatique. Canadian newspaper? The Star is owned by Peter Munk, the Globe and Mail by Bell media... And remember the corporate media is as liberal as the conservatives that owns them, including the Tyee. The unions are not left wing/ or liberals they are very, very conservative supporters of turbo capitalism. There is nothing left or liberal anywhere now a days. the union bosses only concern is for their own pockets,(wages and pensions). Stop the illusion.

Ye Gods, the Toronto Star has always had an Ombudsman.

And when the Atkinson Principles embody a code of fairness and social justice, how can anybody fault the vigilant Toronto Star publisher for ensuring that these principles are alive and well and visible on every page. This is hardly political interference. But Norman seems to feel that this public duty of honour is the same thing as selling a dubious political candidate. It is surely not.

My question is: Why are we so surprised and happy that a newspaper would have an ombudsman? This should be a given of any agency serving the public interest, not an anomoly. The Gordon Campbell government seems to pride itself on taking away any independent agencies whose purpuse it is to help those who aren't upper middle class or rich protect themselves from the elite when they choose to wave their big stick around. The Tyee is at the very least a wonderful forum because it represents a way for ordinary people to express their frustrations at the Campbell government for having all the vehicles and mechanisms for expressing their valid opinions against the corruption they are currently witnessing against the government of the day being dwindled and whittled away by the sneakiness of the Campbell government. We in BC have lost our Human Rights Commission of all things!! as well as our access to affordable legal defence except in the most dire circumstances. We have lost watchdog agencies that protect us against government corruption. We have to rely on journalists like Vaughn Palmer to stand in front of the Gordon Campbell tank (so to speak) and halt the ruthless trampling of all of rights fought long and hard for by real liberals, not these fake GC liberals. We are in a sad state of affairs in BC in terms of how the ordinary person can fight against corruption. Unless we decide the current Liberals are totally above corruption of any sort, the mechanisms the GC liberals removed, should be re-instated. The Tyee allows us to at least hear the voices of ordinary people (our neighbours) who are also unhappy with the current government. It validates our frustration (we are not just left-wing whiners and Campbell bashers) we actually have legitimate concerns about the beloved province of BC and the direction it is heading in, not just locally, but internationally as well. British Columbians deserve to have a voice, no matter what that voice may be.

Isn't it heartwarming -- that whenever something fair, kind, gentle, humane, or inclusive is said, voices from the peanut gallery begin to shriek "LEFT-WING" as if it's an insult. Amazing.

Why on earth would anybody want to be anything else, but fair, kind, gentle, and humane, I ask you?

I always wonder, too, what that says about the RIGHT-wing.