I made a perfectly accurate, devastating, but fair post agaiinst both the bc greens and will mcmartin and was censored by the seemingly increasingly pusillanamous tyee editors, my comments were not libellious, WHY were they deleted...? Another thing is, WHY so many articles by rightwingers predicting ndp failure in the tyee lately, also articles on wards, by yuppie green lawyers...TYEE EDITOR, WHERE are the articles by adrian dix and others telling us how we could WIN???The bias in this paper in its choice of rightwing apologists is beginning to concern me......

Hey Lewis I agree with the censorship part. Twice I have posted comments about the lack of technical skills the tyee webmaster and support staff have only to have these comments deleted. Why the fuck does the Tyee edit comments? Does anyone, this means you David Beers, have the cojones to answer this?

I will take silence to mean that the Tyee is truly made up of a bunch of spineless cowards.

From time to time I remind posters of the basic tenets of civility expected on The Tyee, a site which is offered for free but is produced not without expense or without a lot of hard work by many who lend their actual names and reputations to The Tyee. I'll make that reminder again, despite the fact that I'd prefer not to respond to commenters who are too timid to use their real names as they insult me by name with epithets. Posters are here as guests, and you are asked to abide by these guidelines: keep your comments somewhat related to the article, refrain from racist or sexist attacks or personal vitriol. By all means, argue your point, marshalling facts and colourful prose. But comparing a person to human feces as 'Lewis Swift' did in the post deleted, or as he also did, accusing a person of having never told the truth, is beyond the bounds of any reasonable debate and will be deleted. Censorship? Give me a break. No one can say that 'Lewis Swift' is denied an opportunity to comment on this site; no person posts more, probably -- or more repetitively in theme and content than 'Swift'. 'Cypher', as the site manager has said before, if you have constructive criticism to make about the technical aspects of thist site, send them directly to

rather than turn the comments section into zone for tech arguments and criticism. If 'Swift', 'Cypher' or anyone else can't abide by these rules, please feel free to read other sites and comment there instead of The Tyee.

This is great! How long before "Lewis" and "Cypher" start accusing Beers and the Tyee of acting like the hideous "corporate media"? Oops, they already did. I guess nothing's pure enough for fanatics like these folks. Another reason why the NDP really will fall flat on its face next spring -- leaving the enraged and impotent dogma queens spluttering in rage and blaming the media once again, including presumably the "spineless, cowardly" Tyee.

Where's good ol' Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan when we need them :) I watch the debates and I look at the polls and I cannot believe roughly half the USA wants to vote for George Bush.

I have nothing against the guy personally. I'm not asking that he be defeated because of how he looks on camera or his lack of presidential presence or anything so superficial.

But in the debates he dodges questions and has trouble marshalling facts. He was wrong about WMD's, he has incurred almost 10,000 casualties in Iraq, his clean air policies are a joke, his own advisors like Paul O'Neil resign, the head of the EPA resigned I believe, no matter what the area, people get so fed up they quit on him.

Yet the American people in all their democratic wisdom just may give this guy another 4 years. But then I couldn't believe we gave Mulroney another 4 years (although he won in a 3 party race which isn't the same) so who are we to talk :)

"But then I couldn't believe we gave Mulroney another 4 years (although he won in a 3 party race which isn't the same) so who are we to talk :)"

Yup, there's a serious level of understanding problem out there.

And Lewis, to expect that everyone out here, with as much right to participate in this forum as you, is going to agree that the NDP has some kind of right of claim, to a monopoly of anti-neocon opinion and progressive social thinking, making it some kind of "only" legitimate voice, is totally unreasonable. It ain't gonna hoppen. Indeed, the NDPs grip on labour and the left may be in the process of coming undone, and a transition to something else already evolving. You nor the NDP can control or dictate all social development.

Plus, you do the NDP a disservice sometimes. Take a deep breath and breathe.

And don't bother chowing down on me, I'm likely to be one of those voting for your party out here. But you don't have some kind of right to demand my vote.

I enjoy the political articles from all points of view including those of Will McMartin.

All of the author's choices for single-term leaders examples are questionable. Harcourt's goal was a second term for the NDP and it was achieved. He grew very tired of the nonsense slander that was directed at him and decided to resign in plenty of time before the next election. Lyndon Johnson finish JFK's term and then was elected, then decide to not run again. Vander Zalm did not run for a second term; Rita Johnson took over the Socred leadership. Gerald Ford was never elected, not even as Vice President. Glen Clark had also resigned and did not run again.

Coyote, I have already stated my position that all are free to post their opinions...lately it seems the only articles posted are by the likes of will mcmartin -what's it been now, two articles in less than three weeks by mcmartin? Is the tyee single-handedly attempting to keep mcmartin's punditcy viable? Where's the article on the safe streets act? Where's a leftist argument for wards? Disabled people like myself feel we are fighting for our LIVES, under this government of backstabbing liars, what do we get get? Your constant opining on why the left is doomed, and david beers single-handlingly trying to revive the career of every rightwing pundit in bc? I repeat, where's DIX? Where's Ramsey, where's something besides defeatism, and endless commentary by rightwing pundits predicting ndp defeat? And I'm tired of seeing these pundits get special treatment...I made no remarks to will mcmartin that anyone who doesn't INSIST on special status and treatment, should not be able to respond to mano-a-mano, and I said nothing either libellious or beyond the bounds of good taste. How about discussing how we can WIN, for a change, instead of how we haven't got a chance....

Unlike the BC Liberals , the doed not need to lie to win. If enough people get the message that the BC Liberals will continue their plundering of BC if re-elected. It was true of all other neo-conservatives, and it will be true for them.

Lewis - you and I don't seem to agree on much and you do veer in to personal insults and attacks a little too easily, maybe that is why Beers is editing you out. I don't consider myself right-wing in the slightest, I'm an confirmed x-ndp, left of center Green, out of the closet for 4 years, yet even with me you throw personal stuff at - my suggestion is start making more friends then enemies.... Have a look at my web site http://amputee-online.com

Well, rocker biff, perhaps if you would ever respond to my critique of carr's never speaking up about campbell's assault on the disabled, I might be more tolerant -yet you and other greens run from this issue like a hot potato. Also Rocker Biff, did you not notice the huge number of developmentally disabled persons demonstrating vigorously about christy clark's (your favorite "socially conscious" bc liberal) when she engaged in complicity with gordon liar, in leaving the developmentally disabled out of the input process in the reorganization of the ministry of children and families. Perhaps one of her reason's for quitting was extremely well deserved GUILT, something most "liberals" of all strripes are much better at then progressive action. As a disabled person you should really have more sense, but perhaps your pension is not subceptable to continual cutback and government theft the way mine is, we also have that disabled person newly elected in the federal conservatives, sam sullivan, and so forth but then I always find that the pensions of the disabled not subject to cut back are far prone to favor both rightwing and vote splitting candidates....David Beers, where in HELL is your article (PREFERABLY NOT WRITTEN BY A RIGHTWINGER) about the safe streets act? The ndp lost a lot of the support of the poor, in the 2001 election, except the two seats the poor and working class got them in the downtown eastside and mcphail's riding...Are you trying to aggravate this tendency? Rockerbiff, you may be ok but your actions are destructive...the best thing the greens could do in the next election provincially is get out of the ndp's way...or at least make sure it's gordon liar's vote you're stealing, althoughnthat will probably happen anyway, despite greens intentions...

Lewis, what color are the clouds in your world?

Well, henry, they're not rose-colored like the clouds in a typical rightwinger's world...was your courage only equal to a comment of no real content?...the blood you think you smell is that of your children and grandchildren, not mine...notice how these cowardly rightwingers -and I'm not referring to rockerbiff- never have any real guts or intelligence, they do excell however, at selling out others for nickels and dimes, if you have a point "henry," make it! A pity the tyee editor has ended debate on this thread by timidly refusing to repost my comments...which I think most tyee readers would agree were no more than fair and accurate, he doesn't care much for one-on-one exchanges either, time to remove "feisty" from the masthead mr beers...of course if he reposted my comments he would have to show how tame they were in the first place...let's see you go one-on-one with some of these redneck thugs sometime, mr beers, believe I'll blow this popstand for awhile...

If this newspaper's main role is to promote the NDP, it is no better than Canwest's promoting of the far right. We need more columns like McMartin's to bring about even more meaningful debate - or hey, go all the way and invite a "Mark Milkie" type on here from time to time. There is an opportunity here to present 'freedom of the press' here in it's highest form, embracing all political stripes in meaningful discussion.

Hell, yes, let's go all out, let's even get a leftwing xommentator to write about leftwing issues -like tim louis on wards, or an anti-poverty advocate about the safe streets act for example, but then, hell no, the tyee wopuld rather enable rightwing torpedo artists like will mcmartin -will" I thought you kept saying on cbc there was no good news for the bc liberals, but then, I guess you left out yourself...putting this thread variation, on file as well...

As former board member of the BC Coalition of People with disabilities, I can attest to you that when I was on that board we spent a lot of time saying the same things about the NDP then and you [and I] as saying about the Liberals treatment of PWD's now. In 1996 the NDP cut Pharmacare coverage by 10%, this directly effected this person with a disability [me]. However, I just came back from a CUPE BC, event where we were urged to support the NDP because, "during the decade between 1991 and 2001, the NDP government increased healthcare health care funding every year". Nothing mentioned about a 10% cut to Phamramcare at all. So who are the LIARS ? In the 1990's Andrew Petter [NDP] brought forward the idea of "No Fault Insurance". The threat was so dangerous to PWD's that the Coalition brought up Ralph Nader to speak at a rally to protest, eventually the NDP relented. The NDP did different things to PWD than the Liberals, but they still did a lot of damage and my time on Coalition board told me everything I needed to know about what the NDP were all and are still all about.

I think the Tyee can only publish the stories they recieve. Someone should do stories on wards and anti-poverty etc and I'm sure Mr Beers would post them if someone did.

Rockerbiff, the NDP is a lot of things. Anti-disabled is not one of them although you're entitled to draw that conculsion from your example.

I for one cannot hate my fellow Canadians regardless of their political bent, okay, I hate neo-Nazis. There are many decent people who vote Conservative or BC Liberal and NDP. I just wish we could agree on what policies succeed or fail without the need for demonizing and getting all defensive. Any conservative who can admit that Martin did a pretty good job as finance minister and that Bush is a disaster, any NDPer that can admit that life for the poor wasn't all wine and roses under Harcourt and Clark, any Liberal who can admit that Campbell's tax cuts did not pay for themselves and maybe the Sun and CKNW employing his brother to comment on the provincial scene isn't a good thing has my thanks.

First of all, I want to briefly comment on the comments by Lewis. It seems that you must be getting up on the wrong side of the bed. Unfortunately, while you may have some valid points in your arguments on various issues, they are lost due to the vitriolic nature in which they are presented. In any case, I am more interested in commenting on Will's article. In comparing the US situation to the local situation is like comparing apples to oranges. I think everyone will concede the main point that the incumbent generally has an advantage in re-election to office by nature of running on their record. However, in trying to compare a US national election to BC is stretching things somewhat. The playing field and the type of governance are very different. Bush jr. is running on a false record with the US economy truly still in the tank. He is presiding over a treasury that is literally bankrupt and being held up by foreign borrowings from China and Japan. The numbers are truly staggering with a USD 7.4 trillion dollar debt load that is increasing by USD 1.4 billion per day. Those are numbers that in our province that we cannot even fathom. Combine that with a trade deficit with China alone of USD 128 billion dollars the problem with the US economy becomes even bleaker. Combine all of this with their mis-adventure in Irag and the increasing body count of young Americans coming home, it is hopeful that the American voters will realize that this president has been the most incompetent presidency since their inception. I do not think we even want to comment on their failure to respond to the shortage of flu vaccines or the way they bungled(ignored) a strike in Venezuela that has severely impacted the price of petroleum products in the US. If Kerry is to win this election he needs to hammer home these points with the American electorate. He needs to hit Bush where it really hurts, how about the simple fact that the President has not attended the funeral of a SINGLE American soldier of the Iraq war. The reason is simple enough, it would highlight the casualities and call into question his judgement in committing forces to the Middle East region. In our small region of the world, we have a regional government that has been hellbent on beating up its' citizens, all in the name of fiscal prudence. Surprise, surprise we have a surplus running into the next election. A surplus generated on increased revenues for our raw resources and has no relationship to good fiscal management. If I was in the position of Carol James, I suspect the main theme would be that BC's number one export has been jobs and I would hammer it home continously. Finally, with regards to vote splitting, well gosh that was the mantra of the BC Liberals in 1996 and 2001. They were able to push aside the competition through means which were in my opinion not reputable and certainly while politics is nasty dirty business, were made even nastier and dirtier by their actions. But that would be for further debate. The Green Party in my opinion is not the major threat to the NDP as perhaps they once were. I would argue that they are appealing to a broad selection of the electorate from the left to centre and to slightly right of centre voters who are concerned about the environment. As example would be Raife Mair voting Green in the last federal election and the federal leader of the Green Party being a former PC. I would comment directly on Will McMartin and suggest that he presents an interesting perspective on the history of BC politics. I respect the role that he has played in government over the years in his role as a legislative assistant and legistlative party researcher. While he and I may disagree on a lot of his conclusions, I respect the fact that he puts them out there for discussion and debate. Regards to all

Interesting story and good historical perspective.

Being one of those righties who Lewis is fond of castigating I take my life in my hands commenting, however, there is no question that the NDP has a huge uphill fight to win this time out. Hello, it's starting with a base of two seats and a brand new leader.

Can the NDP win? Yes. But cheerleading is not going to help. (And I think we do Adrian Dix a dis-service to invoke him as cheerleader in chief, he is a much more capable journalist than that implies.)

What the NDP must do to win is focus voters' discontent on issues with which the majority of British Columbians in a majority of ridings agree with the NDP position. While poverty law issues are, no doubt, important, they don't resonate with people in the same way as education cutbacks, waiting lists for health care and prosperity issues do.

One of the things the right can count on is a vocal minority of left NDPers flogging the assorted, very valid, and voter repellant causes of identity politics. Winning elections and doing the right thing are not incompatible, but they can be hard to reconcile. (And David, I'd be happy to write a how to win article...)

Good "pros and cons" discussion regarding the unreversable privatization of our assets such as health care, B.C. Hydro and I.C.B.C. etc., is non- existent. The discussions are held behind closed doors, and we are told we have no right to be part of decisions made regarding these assets that are owned by the people of the province.

Just to set the record straight, the Green/NDP combined vote was higher than the Liberals in 8 ridings the Liberals won. The reality is that a 57% vote in the current electoral system wins you many seats. Personally I would blame Ujjahl Dosanjh more for the NDPs bad result than the loss to the Greens. IF the then premier had campaigned seriously and tried to win the seats that were core NDP, I predit the vote would have been more like Liberal 50, NDP 35, Green 7. The result would have given the NDP about 15 more seats. If I did not believe in conspiracies, I would wonder if the premier in 2001 deliberatly threw the election for some future benefit.

I would have to agree with McMartin about the NDP/Green vote split. Truthfully, it is one of the more complicated and strange vote splits in any democratic system right now. Much less clear cut than the Democratic/Green vote split or the Canadian Alliance/PC vote split. Yes, the Greens do get a lot of support from former PCer's, and are much more right-wing than many of the other Green parties in the world. But, I do think they do split a great deal of votes with the NDP. I know many people who voted for the Greens mistakingly thinking they were an environmental version of the NDP which is far from the reality of what the Greens actually stand for. The NDP/Greens split vote will continue to be a big problem for the NDP in the next BC provincial election and the federal election. The NDP must attack the Greens a bit more in these elections and point out that they aren't an environmentally friendly version of the NDP but have many right-wing characteristics as well. Good article, we do need balance. But some pro-NDP viewpoints wouldn't hurt either.

This endless excuse about the Greens splitting the NDP vote is indicative of what is wrong with the NDP in this province. Next we will be hearing that the Greens are responsible for reducing the power of the unions, increased oil and gas exploration, the lack of settlement in native land claims and x number of other things the Greens are on record of not supporting. Instead of blaming the kids standing next to you for the broken window, the kids who broke the window should fess up and come clean - since everyone saw who threw the rock in the first place.

Ah, rockerbiff, another example of holier than thou Green politics. Don't forget, rockerbiff, the Greens have thrown a few rocks themselves. Enough of the high school hall monitor stuff.

Results in Surrey-Panorama Ridge showed the GP and Adriane Carr were a total non-factor. It was a two way contest between Liberals and NDP, and this gives us a good idea of what the next election will be like. Greens may be on the radar screen in a handful of seats (Powell River-SC, Nelson-Creston, Saanich N & Is.,) but in most places it will be NDP vs. BCLP. The NDP is the only party that can defeat Gordon Campbell. Left-wing Greens know this and will vote NDP because they do not want four more years of Gordon Campbell.