Thanks BC Mary

I appreciate you sharing your point of view. I can assure you there is no 'antagonism' by myself or other editors here towards commenters at The Tyee. In fact the changes we recently made are in response to what readers were telling us they wanted in order to make the comments culture better here.

I and my colleagues certainly treasure you, and others like you, who have added many wonderful insights over the years. We have tried to reward your loyalty by running far more investigative reporting than in the early days. Your personal interest is Basi-Virk. Despite our very small resources, I believe we have been a leader in publishing reports on the case all along.

We run a lot of other kinds of stories as well on books, culture, ethical choices like the one weighed yesterday that has drawn so many comments: why have children in today's world?

The Tyee runs far more content, period, than ever. We are able to because our audience has grown. There is a direct correlation between the number of people who read us, and the resources we can muster to provide great reads.

So if you, or any other Tyee readers, can find it in your hearts to support this subscription drive our team has worked so hard to polish and launch, I would be very appreciative.

I know exactly how to increase readership

are you willing to pay? and sign a release indicating you will not use the method without paying for it first?

It will cost money but nothing like a regular ad campaign and it will bring in readers away from the echo chamber your current efforts might only reach. People from the real world will be driven to the Tyee.

contact me - I believe you have an email address along with my account and we can set up a meeting.

I've worked in media and advertising since 1987 and I wanted to keep the method for myself to use, however financial necessity makes me offer it up to the Tyee.

all the best.

Helping

I don't know the circumstances of Truman Green's past suspension, and I never paid much attention to Coyote's comments (though I saw the one that got him banned, prior to its deletion from the Tyee comments -- it was definitely "out there" -- but I remain agnostic on the issue his banishment).

Personally, I don't read The Tyee only to see points of view with which I agree. I value this as a vital independent news source and I hope that Coyote's friends can look past that issue of his banning and support this website. It is acceptable, in my opinion, to have a code of conduct for the comments, and it seems to me that the discussions here are pretty freewheeling and vigourous. No news source is ever going to be perfect for each of us, so can we at last consign to Coyote issue to the past?

Opposite Views

The great danger a publication such as this is having a very open bias and censoring those who do not share said bias. For example, have we seen a piece about the BCTF locking its own employees out? No, we haven't. Neither did we see a report of the arrest of Perley Edmund Holmes but we did see his union's allegations of paying foreign workers less than minimum wage. Thus, a little more balance is needed in my opinion,

There is also a danger that one or two flakes with a lot of time on their hands can hijack your comments, making it less likely for sane people, ie those who have real lives and daily chores, to post their ideas.

Thus I wish you, Mr Beers, the best of luck

Working Man: Er, actually

You'll find a Tyee story about the BCTF/CEP dispute here:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/05/29/BCTFvCEP/

And here's the piece about Holmes' arrest.

http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/01/29/Holmes/

Perhaps there is a bit of bias in your expectations of what The Tyee will and does publish? Thanks, however, for your good luck wish.

beers I haven't received any emails...

I'd happily work out a results based form of compensation and of course the meeting is free - you would just have to sign a letter indicating you will not used the method(s) without my written consent.

I'll wait until tomorrow morning before writing you off, as it were.

peace out.

Good times

I have a complaint, not enough Will McMartin. Otherwise I generally like this neighbourhood on the net. Met lots of great people here.

Working Man, stop acting like a troll, the article is right there on the front page. And your kids are in school so quit trying to pass off the stay-at-home-dad thing as a full-time job.

By the way, do you complain to the Vancouver Sun about their selection of columnists and stories too?

well this is nonsense as I've heard nothing

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS. - TYEE EDITOR

BEST COMMENT

IS A DISASTER! Get rid of it now, please.
The Best Comment/Collapsed default displays two (2) comments at this point this morning on this thread (8:00am)

There are actually 14 posts – many interesting and some quite insightful in the uncensored ‘full version’ [not counting this comment in either tally since I don’t know where it will end up].

Surely that ‘version’ of reality doesn’t give the new user an accurate picture of what being a Tyee reader and commenter is really all about.

The default view for new readers is saccharine and bleak.

In my view.

Please scrap the edits and get rid of the highly subjective labels - provide an 'offensive comment' button and do yourselves, and your faithful readers and supporters, a favour.

English headway in La Belle Province

Dorothy:

Perhaps you have been overly conditioned by your Canwest years of reading and The Tyee in fact badly needs to undo the brainwashing, or at least not perpertuate it. An occasional article (we are not talking State mandated bilingualism here) could help a substantial segment of its readership.

English remains absolutely everywhere in La Belle Province metropolitan centre.
Would you think la language police can simply shut off the Internet media pipe?

Please check this out for an eye opener:
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/
http://www.politiquebec.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=e1e3fa51292fd3c16bee4edd142f6ac7

Even the Americans are starting to acknowledge that they must deal with more than one language at the State level. Europeans are years ahead on this and so is Quebec IMO. The Babel Tower syndrome sounds to me like Bible belt conditioning too worthy of the Canwest upbringing. But of course I am a poorly integrated biaisé gaulois of old stock (27 years out West!) that does not walk the talk.

Southdelta refers to "..felling of community"

And I can't deny that I've have tons of fun and some enlightenment reading and posting on the Tyee.

However, I would like to ask anyone who's reading how it is even remotely possible to have a "community" in which it is not possible for the members to contact each other.

And so I strongly recommend that the Tyee ban anonymous posting. Several people have contacted me during my time on the forum and it was only because I have always used my real name which is available through the telephone directory.

This should be self-apparent: To suggest that the Tyee readers and posters comprise a "community" without knowing the names of the members or being able to contact our "friends" is a self-delusional joke of unique proportions.

So: come on...no more anonymous posting. Let's have a real community here.

Besides, it's downright cowardly.

Hi Truman

First Truman I have to say how much I enjoy your comments.

I did not write "felling of community" but "feeling of community", I'm not sure if that was a typo or something else.

As for being anonymous, I am somewhat known in the community here and some in South Delta who read The Tyee do indeed know who "southdeltawalker" is.

By having a "commenting" name does not impeed the power of the comments. I have learned and enjoyed comments from "Grumpy", "G West", "B C Mary" and many others.

I don't feel "cowardly" commenting under "southdelatwalker". Nor do I feel any great need to know the names of commentators or want to contact them personally. I am happy to be part of The Tyee online "community" and happy to leave it at that.

who's insulted?

Truman, there are a couple of lines, which show, to my mind, why the anonymity is a good idea. It looks like MyBrainIsOnFire just handed me or someone else a set of juicy 'insults', which were quickly edited out, shame, that. Imagine he knew where the other party lived and vice versa, things could get ugly. But because we are able to 'insult', we can really get into a learning process, while you learn nothing from people who agree with you. If you ever read Scott peck's books on community building, the polite PC exercise will not get to the meat of any matter. I do not get insulted, I get curious as to how I managed to get people into a state of trying to insult me. I sometimes try to provoke, to turn the tables, to bring in something nobody has said yet, but never to denigrate anybody. It is not an argument for anything to tell someone 'the problem with you is...'. So, you will notice that gaulois does not actually answer anything I say regarding the background on which I talk, and which I am stating, only jumps to the defence of Quebec culture, and then proceeds to plaster labels all over my person, brainwashed by Canwest, bible-belt conditioned, etc. Nevertheless, I am able to take note of those sentiments and learn a bit of what's 'out there', and that is why I stir the pot in the Tyee, to learn; mayhap to teach as well, but that is not something I can control, so I'm not trying.

Southdelta, I guess my "felling" was similar

to your "impeeding," a careless mistake.

Thanks for the comment regarding "enjoying" my comments.

I think the moral position in life is that we should strive to achieve the best of all possible worlds and especially in a society such as this in which we still have a certain amount of freedom.

Certainly, anonymous posting is a response to fear of recrimination or personal timidity, both of which, I think, should be confronted wherever possible.

A perfect friendship, a peaceful community.

Hi Truman,

The day The Tyee requires me to publish my real stats, I'm outa here. And that's no more cowardly than refusing to stroll through Stanley Park alone at 2:00 AM. Or deciding to wait until after rush hour traffic before driving across town.

I run a blog these days and I'm still BC Mary so that you or anyone else can identify my voice, my PoV, and build your own idea of who or what I am ... and that's just fine by me.

Commenters on my blog who identify themselves as "anonymous" are annoying for only one reason: I can't tell them apart. I can't tell if I'm responding to the same person 5 times or one time to 5 people.

In other words, I don't care what a commenter's User Name is -- as long as I can build a dialogue relative to the topic (The Legislature Raids) with the author of a comment.

When it comes right down to it -- being BC Mary or Kootcoot or Coyote or Blonde Pitbull is a beautiful kind of freedom. It permits an unobstructed bonding of one mind to another, free of all physical distractions, irritations and stereotypes. Imagine!

Some days I really do believe that's the definition of a perfect friendship. Maybe it even defines a peaceful, perfect community.

Truman....

I'm a bit spelling challenged but try my best.

If one is anonymous on The Tyee does not mean they are "timid". I speak out and organize in my community, challenge politicians and write letters to the editor all under my own name. I'm sure many other Tyee commentators do too plus much more.

Unfortunately there are those who "troll sites" looking for women or youth or others they can either intimidate, exploit or just plain harass.

I believe "rabble.ca" just had a link to an article regarding a woman who's life was "made hell" due to her name being associated with different causes on the internet.

But let's not dwell on the negative's.
Here's to The Tyee getting new friends and may they stick around through the highs and the lows, to become old friends.

Hey "Private Messages" loved your idea.

And I love all your many contributions, too, B.C. Mary, but I'm wondering if you might consider meditating on the word "community" a bit more before deciding that the best possible community is one in which the members are not able to contact each other. (This might even smack of latent misanthropy, having as its implicit hypothesis that the less communication the better we're all just able to get along, mimicking a fifteen-minute famous Californian). I've given this suggestion considerable thought (in the last few minutes, hee hee) and I've sadly come to the conclusion that this claim must be considered as a rationalization--totally out of character for you, I think, Mar, considering your many good works, which, I might add, for which I can never find an agenda beyond pure altruism and the wish to inform.

And now that you've established that hiding behind a non de plume is no big deal, what, may I ask, is your real name?

And yours, please, Southdeltawalker person.

Here's my manifesto on anonymity and communication (and community by inverse syllogism): There's no communication without communication. Seems fairly level-headed, wouldn't you say?

All of which leads inevitably to this: Should politicians use phony names because they might get people mad at them?

A community ... a meeting of the minds

Y'know that old cliche, Truman, about "a meeting of the minds" ... ??

Well, lemme get down to brass tacks here. Have a look at my real community. Among the people I dearly love is one who doesn't bathe often enough. Another one picks his nose wherever and whenever the notion strikes him (I only enjoy this when it occurs on TV). Somebody else's false teeth clack when they eat. Another one has numerous ideas about how to improve my life -- not her life -- my life. I even have a Socred relative.

They walk too fast. They drive too slow. They scratch their ... but you know what it's like in the real world. That stuff irks ... and we get by only when we brace, brace, brace! (as they say on B.C. Ferries) and carry on. Oh Man, do we carry on.

But ... in this perfect community -- this meeting of the minds, none of that stuff happens (although I suspect IAMC). There are no irritating mannerisms, smells, sights, or sounds. It's one-dimensional, brain-to-brain. We get to speak at our own pace, and nobody's deciding if we're ugly or cute, rich or poor. We're left free to consider one another's ideas as best we can. We even come and go as we please.

Such a community doesn't happen very often. It should be encouraged (which is why I dislike trolls so profoundly). And Jeez, now and then it's such a happiness.

I know you're a stickler for exactitudes. But once in a while -- just now and then, Tru ... we should have a meeting of the minds -- and, as I see it, it's a community in the purest sense of the word.

Please join me there. And to quote the ancient wisdom of Marg the Warrior Princess -- "Don't make me have to come back and smite thee!" That would be so concrete. So everyday concrete and irritating.

Thanks BC Mary!

Just about the best description of what an onine community can be.

Cut it out you guys. What's your names?

Look up the word 'community.' I live in a trailer park. I walk around here every morning talking to people as they greet me going by. They don't hide behind their curtains mouthing pretenses about being better neighbours because I don't know who any of them are. They know everything about me or could easily find out whatever if they were curious. This is a community!

I'm trying to think of another community in which the members don't have the facility of communicating directly with each other. All I'm coming up with is communities of some kind of inmates--prisons where friends are locked in cells.

So just stop hiding and come out into the fresh air where people with integrity and courage are waiting to say hi to you.

And what's wrong with an online community in which we know each others'names?

If anonymity is somehow good why isn't disclosure even better?

The only true friends I've made on the Tyee forum are the ones who have looked me up in the telephone book and given me a call. In fact I've got over 600 emails (mostly from a few of the same people, including a regular writer) from people who have contacted me because they wanted to talk, share and be friends.

This ain't my idea of 'community.' Maybe some kind of passing acquaintance--but 'community'? Not--as we used to say in the nineties.

Communities happen when people are available to each other.

Better you should pick your nose

Aw Troom ... did I say it was the only community in my life?

Jeez, I don't live on The Tyee.

But, like the Public Library or the Art Gallery, it's a different way of being a community ... for a while.

Cripes, did you really say: They don't hide behind their curtains mouthing pretenses about being better neighbours because I don't know who any of them are.

I'm calling Marg.

Updated Ratio - Best Comment: All Comments

as of 9 pm - May 31.

6 out of 29 comment only in the BEST COMMENT category. Not a big improvement from 13 hours ago.

How ridiculous and subjective can this get?

On a 'story' about finding new friends where much of the discussion is about 'community' only 6 comments make the editor's cut.

What do others think of this?

Not very friendly and welcoming in my view.

The new format and the

The new format and the overediting will kill the tyee as it becomes as mainstream as the media outlets that it so incessantly criticizes. It was much much much more fun two years ago, the highlight, in my view, being the night of the last provincial election, when left and right duked it out on the tyee as the results came in. aahhhh the good old days.

Thanks, we hear you

Hey Gwest, thanks we get it. You are not happy with the 'best comments' feature. You've posted that many times now. We are pleased to receive your feedback as well as that of others who do like the format. We will be publishing an article next week inviting further discussion on the comments revisions and telling you about some adjustments we are likely to make.

Now can we get back the the topic of this article? The Tyee is launching a subscription drive that is essential to our remaining on line. Would anyone like to help? Thanks.

David Beers

Hi David..i've sent the link for The Tyee to many of my friends encouraging them to "sign up".
What i would like to know is- does The Tyee have a "break even" point in readership? How is it determined how many readers The Tyee has?

Thanks.

David

I've recommended Tyee to dozens of friends over the past year or two. I'll continue to do so - but, given the current default view the folks I've talked to recently found when they got here - they've come back to me with the view that Tyee is sweet, saccharine, and not very interesting.

I took the trouble to monitor and analyze what they were saying and, surprise, they are right. The truncated/Best Comments format is insipid and hardly worth a second look. That's the feedback I'm getting and I've simply passed it on to you in the most effective way I could think of providing it.

I'm glad you got the message(s). However, the fact my messages can't even be seen in the BEST COMMENTS format indicates something of a disconnect with respect to polite and constructive criticism.

Let's make Tyee a little more of a free for all and not a facile edited version of what someone 'thinks' others might like to read.

The point is, if you want comments, and people actually deliver them, it's pretty mean-spirited not to actually make them available to everyone and not just to Tyee regulars who know where and how to get to the real stuff. Like BC Mary and Truman: And other folks who may not always be precisely on point but who are, all the same, the life-blood of this enterprise.

Along with your own invaluable efforts, I'd hasten to add.

I'm glad you're listening - but it would be nice to know that newcomers would be able to see the whole vital, messy, active, not always polite dialogue as well.

That's what's good about new media. In my view.

Cheers.

Way to go, G

You don't get a fraction of the credit you deserve, G West ... and you sure as heck don't deserve the little talk just leveled at you by David Beers.

You've often acted as playground monitor on this site when, if I may say so, "Admin" won't. Always you're the first to bring a flaming down to managable levels -- never with force but with reason.

Often I've marveled at your kindness, patience and tolerance -- not to mention the breadth and depth of your thinking. Things wouldn't be as good, without your efforts to make them good.

So if the web-site owner maintains an aloof silence when you speak to him ... then comes down out of the control-room to slag you for repetition ... I'm angry, discouraged, and wondering why I bother dropping in at such a place as The Tyee is now.

It's more than a simple disconnect. Once again -- as with Shannon Rupp -- the administration seems to hold a hostility toward the commenters which is being held barely in check. Why? I dunno why. Can't begin to imagine why.

Anybody figure this?

'Often I've marveled at your

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT. PLEASE FEEL WELCOME TO REWORD AND REPOST IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR POINT WITHOUT INSULTS. - TYEE EDITOR

Geez Adamwest

Thanks for bringing that up!

I thought everyone knew what that was all about. One year of posting exactly the same views under two different labels - for very good reason.

I'm busy just now, but I'll post a link later so you can be up to date too.

Agains, thanks for the publicity; it's invaluable.

BTW 'Tip of the hat to you BC Mary.

it's not your problem

Hi, Mary:

"the administration seems to hold a hostility toward the commenters which is being held barely in check. Why? I dunno why. Can't begin to imagine why.

Anybody figure this?"

Nope, but I reckon if they don't share their worries, we can't be thinking of them. There goes your community. Market forces, perhaps, pressures we haven't heard of? Most of the people who write here are not concerned with pleasing anyone, but with getting the results of their thinking across. Getting one's knuckles rapped is all in a day's work, don't take it to heart. I just hate to see anyone hurt. Try not to be. I mean, don't go sociopathic, just try to hit the happy medium between the two. Off topic? Hee,hee, as they say in Law and order, you opened that door, Dave!

Coupla things... briefly.

Hey Mar, I don't hold any animosity towards Dave Beers for banning me. I got into a vicious feud with my brother on the forum and figured I had to defend my reputation against his accusations--and it was unfair that I was banned--only Beers wasn't the author of the unfairness--we were-- and it wasn't up to him to correct it or decide which one of us was telling the truth and which one of us is a disgusting, pathological liar. 'Nuff said, but I owe Dave Beers another thanks for allowing me the opportunity to get it all out in the open. You'll have to read between the lines on that one, Mar.

On anonymity... I sincerely believe that G.West is not only the Alcibiades character--which he has admitted to being after denying it for months when I asked him point blank, but also the following: Gerhardius, Booker, Maestro, SharingISGood, and flattax--and I'm suspicious that he might be James Burns, too.

His charade with the Alcibiades character really diminished the reliability of this forum for me--although I will allow that I seem to be in a vast minority on these kinds of issues. I'm going to my grave with the mystery of how anyone could possibly look at themselves in the mirror after posting an anonymous comment. This is way beyond my comprehension.

As for suggestions on how to improve readership...Remember Dustin Hoffman's dad's pal in the 'Graduate' who thinks he need only say a single word to enlighten Dustin?

Here it comes: ADVERTISE--like on the overpass just North of the Patullo Bridge, for instance.

Getting hurt ... taking things to heart ... sociopathic?

Hi Dorothy:

Thanks for some good thoughts and kind words. But cripes, there's also a zinger in what you say.

Disagreeing with somebody isn't the same thing as "taking it to heart" or getting hurt, much less, "going sociopathic". (Jeez, did you really say that?)

I thought we were talking about "making friends for The Tyee" and I was dissecting that situation. I think G West was too.

Ain't nuthin' to do with BC Mary (but thanks for your concern). In fact, it takes me a long, long time to give up on a good friend or a good idea ... and when I do get to that point, it comes after looking for the reason. Actually, I look for reasons all along. I bet you do the same. Right? Otherwise, if we get all silly about things, our thinking is wasted.

Ever notice that men are never considered to be "taking things to heart", getting hurt, or "going sociopathic" when they challenge an assumption or present an opposing view?

I was blind ,bu-u-ut no-o-ow I see.

Mary:

Yep, i see how that came across. Actually, it was G.West I had in mind first, because the diatribe from the Admin was directed at him, but I was speaking more in general. I have three males and one other female in my household, and I can assure you I am well aware, who is the more emotionally fragile set, it ain't my girl-child and me.

Truman:

It looks like you are combining concerns about pen names and 'charades'. I use one name, to which I actually have some rights, it's just not the one I am known under to most people. I am one and undivided, I would never start arguing for or against myself, even for kicks; you could get stuck in that fix and lose your mind, I wager. What is in a name? If you don't know me now, you never will, reams of vital stats notwithstanding. It looks a bit obsessive to me, this quest of yours, but I can understand where you're coming from, I think. I have a relative, whose mother knew he didn't like fish with really small bones, so she mixed it up with mashed turnips and served him that concoction. I bet someone has done something similar to you once, so now you want to have it so that what you see is what you get.
Life and the World just ain't that simple on the whole. The bone-filled mix is what we get most of the time. Get used to it.

At my place, we call them Anony-mice.

Hey, Truman m'darlin' ...

I can clear up 50% of your question. My name is ... [drum roll please] ... Mary! That part is exactly, perfectly, truly genuine.

Different scenes, different needs. Everybody where I live -- or have ever lived -- knows my name, my age, all that stuff. That's the way it should be in real life, I surely do agree with you.

But on-line? I don't think so. Cripes, I'm even cautious about using my credit card ID online.

As for the bona fides of G West ... I had to fall down larfing. Maestro? flattax? Oh my god, that's so hilarious.

I wish you had responded when he looked up your telephone number and left a message for you, Tru. It was right after the dust-up with your brother and we wanted to keep connected with you. (Yeah, me too: I knew about the call and no, I've never met G West in person, just a "meeting of the minds" which has given me a ton of good support on The Legislature Raids.)

So ya see? The old Tyee community does work, when we let it. I don't know if that's still possible in this new set-up where we'll be so busy competing with one another for prizes ... arggh.

D'you think David Beers realizes this?

Mary, may I give it one more shot?

You say you disclose your real name in real life.

Well, I think, Mar, this IS real life.

I've accused all kinds of people from Hells Angels to Pharmaceutical companies of being involved in criminal hoaxes--from foisting ridiculous medical hypotheses such as an unproven hpv-cervical cancer link, to knowingly selling addictive drugs like Oxycontin without dislosing the information they had about the addictive nature. I've laughingly referred to them as pharmascorpians and I've criticized Aids Inc. for being more interested in selling antiretrovirals than in curing immune suppression.

You accused certain people of participating in criminal activities in our legislature and suggested that mainstream media was not treating the case with sufficient interest.

It doesn't occur to me that either of has the moral right to make such accusations incognito--while hiding behind phony names.

going too fast for me...

Mary, Truman, Dorothy....
i have to take some responsibility cause it was me who first used the word "community" in this discussion.
i had no idea where it woud go!

anyways-truman banned! then unbanned!....g west is more than one person!....mary's real name is actually mary!
i had no idea the intrigues in this "community"!
my goodness....

Just a goldarn minute ...

Take it back, Truman ... after you read all 320 entries on The Legislature Raids ... and you see that I have been scrupulously careful about never pre-judging this important BC Rail trial or accusing anybody of a crime.

Nor is anybody else permitted to come onto my blog with accusations of guilt. So stop throwing harmful remarks around.

But the fact is -- and this is why the trial is so damn important -- our whole system of government goes on trial when Basi, Virk, and Basi finally get their day in court.

That's the important issue.

You might recall that it was right here on the Tyee discussion threads that the subject came up of Big Media suppressing the news of the BC Rail trial; right here, we talked about the possibility of never knowing what had happened to B.C. Rail; it was right here that we decided collectively to do something about that.

Three of us did:

http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/ ... then
http://freespeechca.blogspot.com/ ... then
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/ which is mine.

Several old Tyee commenters contribute; in the case of G West, we get solid analysis of the law as it applies to the disclosure documents. And that's more than is offered in your $1 a day copy of any CanWest newspaper.

And southdeltawalker ... thanks for the laughter. Best analysis of this nutty topic so far today.

"Our whole system of government goes on

trial when Basi, Virk and Basi get their day in court," eh, Mary.

Do you not understand that even this statement presupposes a certain weightiness in the trial of these three and implies that they may have done something that is extremely injurious to our, ahem...'way of life?'

Anyways, Mar, toss some real credibility to your legislative blog work. Come out under your real name, like all the other journalists do. And yes, your work can be called journalism as long as you research and report on these important events.

Do you suppose Tieleman would make such suggestions about the fantastic importance of the Basi Virk Basi trials while using a phony name?--or Palmer or any of the Sun or Tyee writers?

You've assumed anonymity as your right, Mar, but I think you've taken the morality of it on faith, not thoughtfulness.

The internet can go either way--a refuge for those wanting to prey on the unsuspecting and innocent, a sleazy conspiracy between the virus makers and the virus fixers, a place to achieve kudos without taking responsibility or subjecting oneself to recriminations or danger, or a place of disclosure, integrity and openness.

Hopefully, "obsessions," as Dorothy calls my interest in openness and disclosure, will play an important role.

And this: Mary, you claimed that our forum 'community' worked after all when one of the posters looked my name up in the telephone book in order to lend support to me after my dustup with a family person.

But why did the community work, if it did?

Because I was available in the telephone directory and had been posting under my real name.

Get it, Mar?

Truman

I never denied I posted as both G West and Alcibiades. I did it for exactly one year, period. Never posted as anyone else and I've always made my email address available:

for anyone who cared to contact me.

Many people have Truman and each and every one of them knows what my real name is - as you had a chance to find out the night I phoned you and you refused to answer the call.

And, just for you Adamwest

Anything you'd like to know about the two labels, G West and Alcibiades that I posted under for exactly one year - and why - is contained in the comments thread to this story:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

No big deal, but, since you brought it up, there it is. I can't imagine why anyone would care, but if they do they can inform themselves.

C'est la vie.

Real life and the Tyee

Regarding using our real names, mine's Frank. I'm pretty sure frank2's is as well. But I don't give out my last name because unlike "real life" I don't know who's listening to me here. When I talk to someone on the street I'm pretty sure most of the time that 5000 other people aren't listening.

I just don't wear a name tag when I walk into a Subway, the people there don't need to know my last name or contact information so I don't see why anyone here does. Although I have posted my email address here.

The fact is much of the interaction we take part in in "real life" is actually pretty anonymous. So the way I figure it, just like "real life", anyone who needs to know my last name already does.

As for the Tyee's campaign, I always spread the word. For example, the flood of '07? hey, I read that a year ago in the Tyee, didn't you?

But Truman's right, a few strategically placed billboards would help.

Batman and Truman

Where is the maestro anyway? G West would have been on some pretty serious drugs to play all those personalities with totally different writing styles. And the Alci thing required no detective skills. Not only did they have the exact same writing styles but he used to refer to his Alci posts as his own now and then. Encyclopedia Brown would have solved it in 5 minutes.

Besides, who cares, as I've pointed out before, lots of people have used more than 1 handle and nobody cared.

Ifthen

Truman said:

“Do you not understand that even this statement presupposes a certain weightiness in the trial of these three and implies that they may have done something that is extremely injurious to our, ahem...'way of life?'”

I see no such implication. The way I read Mary’s paragraph there was, that if these three are guilty of criminal offences – IF – then our system of government and the guarding of the guardians are in a state of failure and therefore, these systems are, implicitly, also on trial.

“Hopefully, "obsessions," as Dorothy calls my interest in openness and disclosure, will play an important role.”

I did not call them obsessions. What I actaully said was: “It looks a bit obsessive to me, this quest of yours”. ‘To me’ is a qualifier, which marks it as my stated perception, but not a judgment, which I am not qualified to make, as ‘obsession’ in the way you use it is a diagnosis, and I am not a psychiatrist or a pshychologist.

I think you may well have to use your real name, if you are in fact accusing people of things that would technically be illegal. If Mary or I had done any such thing, you can be sure our protection of anonymity would have been broken open like a morning-after Hallowe’en pumpkin. People do not take such accusations, made in public, lightly, unless they think the source will have little credibility anyway.

Mary – a tip. Have an extra credit-card with a limit of only $1000, which you use for internet payments; that way you don’t have too much flying out there!

Cute, Dorothy, but silly. You claim I am a

bit obsessive about wanting people to disclose their true identities. It is therefore perfectly rational to suggest that one who is obsessive has obsessions, otherwise what 'things' could this person be obsessive about--other than his/her obsessions?

Regarding what I suggest is a prejudicial statement about the weightiness of the alleged legislative irregularities, our system of govenment, comes under, as you say, 'trial,' whenever ANYONE is accused of criminal wrongdoing.

Mary has dedicated large attention to the Basi-Virk case because--in her own words--"...our whole system of government goes on trial when Basi, Virk and Basi finally get their day in court."

I think one who sets up a blog which is essentially dedicated to informing the public on this apparently weighty trial, should also be willing to disclose his/her true identity, just a matter of common decency, perhaps.

Not to do so seems cowardly to me.

Afterall, the people about whom Mary relates information have their true identities in the public domain.

All the other journalists have their true identities in the public domain. From what source does Mary assume her right to anonymity while engaged in online journalism?

And, as you might imagine me wonderling: From what source do we as bloggers and commenters assume a moral right to anonymity--especially while making accusations about others, regarding domestic, national or international instances of wrongdoing?

Mary

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULT. PLEASE FEEL WELCOME TO REWORD AND REPOST IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR POINT WITHOUT INSULTS. - TYEE EDITOR

Again, thanks GWest, BC Mary, Dorothy

Appreciate the feedback on the comments system and culture here.

GWest,you report that friends don't find the 'best comments' on threads lively and don't like the expand function. That is important to know and I take that seriously. Many others have told me in emails and in person that the 'best comments' threads, for them, make comments on The Tyee much more interesting and enjoyable to read because the comments are diverse, yet on topic and substantive. And they just click 'Expand All' if they want the full length comments.

Of course anyone is also free to click All Comments. Thus The Tyee continues to provide this second forum as well.

When I say this, BC Mary, I do so with no 'hostility' and, Dorothy, it's not at all in the spirit of a 'diatribe'. Rather, I'm offering my forthright, plain spoken view, as you and others have said you welcome from each other. You'd want that from the the editor, I'd expect, as well? If what I've said above comes off as anything close to uncivil or angry, let me assure you that wasn't intended.

In any event, this thread is a bit different from most in that it's below a request to readers to help spread the word about The Tyee. Side conversations about comment system functions, whether anonymous handles are appropriate, or how I interact with commenters are interesting and have been allowed to unspool here, unedited, on this thread. But as they aren't on topic, they are not selected as 'Best Comments'.

I think if you look at other threads on The Tyee since the changes you'll see that any comments fitting our basic criteria -- germaine to the subject of the story and civil in tone -- are given 'Best Comments' status -- as soon as I or another busy Tyee staff member can do so.

We are just a handful of people working hard to provide this forum. We do note your views, reading every comment -- even more closely with the new system in place. If we don't always respond please don't take it personally. We are a very small operation and working like mad to produce the journalism you read here. Every day I am amazed at what we've been able to create and publish on such a shoe string budget, with so much effort and good will from the journalistic community and our audience of engaged reades.

I'm sorry if we don't always meet your ideals, but I assure you we are doing the best we can with the best of faith, and surely not an ounce of 'hostility.'

Thanks for listening, and know that I appreciate what you contribute to the success of this experiment in independent journalism and online interaction.

And now I'm going to enjoy a sunny weekend. I hope you have a good one as well.

The New Tyee: slick, efficient -- devoid of organic funk

David,

Thanks for your comments. I do have an idea how much hard work goes into a web-site and thanks for that too.

You really do know what we mean, don't you, when we fret about the Tyee's dumbing down or loss of integrity ... not entirely sure what it is, yet.

I realized how well you understand this, when I read your article in today's The Globe and Mail, about The New Vancouver: slick, efficient -- and devoid of organic funk

It's a beautiful read and it took me right back to those good old days when The Tyee often, often, week after week, left us smiling this way.

Best of luck with whatever it is you're arm-wrestling, behind the scenes here. And please tell us more about that wonderful little 7-year-old who got his first comic book shown and sold on Main Street.

See ... smiling again.

last word? Sure hope so...

“bit obsessive about wanting people to disclose their true identities. It is therefore perfectly rational to suggest that one who is obsessive has obsessions, otherwise what 'things' could this person be obsessive about--other than his/her obsessions?”

I am going to be positive-thinking here and assume, that you really do not see, that you are barging blindly past the key words in my input. I did not say you ‘were obsessive’ or that you ‘had obsessions’. I said some of your actions looked somewhat obsessive to me. That wording admits to it being me, who sees this through the filter of my own perceptions and limitations, whatever they are, and admits the possibility, that I might be wrong, seeing that I do not know you beyond you manifestations in these threads. This, to me, comes under ‘common decency’ and good old-fashioned caution against making statements I do not have enough basis for making.

“From what source do we as bloggers and commenters assume a moral right to anonymity--especially while making accusations about others, regarding domestic, national or international instances of wrongdoing?”

From the source of not making accusations in the way you suggest. We can criticize actions that are already established as being fact. We can voice perceptions and opinions and raise questions, as long as they are clearly marked as such, and I have not seen Mary fail to stick to those rules.

I can run around and tell the world that I personally do not like my neighbor. I can say he has treated me unpleasantly in some specific way, if it be the truth. I can also say I believe certain things to be the case regarding his character. None of these things are accusations, because the proper qualifiers are in place. But if I said I knew him to be a swindler, based on belief and without knowing any facts to back it up, I would be making an accusation, and this would move my enterprise into a danger zone, where I could no longer lay claim to the cover of anonymity.

Please take the time to mull over these important distinctions, before you rush to slap more names onto my supposed person. You have, by your own linguistic standards, called me a coward, indecent, dishonest ‘not open’, and, easily the worst insult, cute. I get it. You think I’m a slimeball. Well, can’t please everybody. Have a nice, contemplative weekend.

You're right, Dorothy. I have respect for

everyone as human beings and wish everyone happiness and success, but as citizens failing to pay proper respect to the millions who have died so that you can hide behind stupid, phony names--NOT ANY OF YOU BUNCH HERE rest assured, with the exception of Brain, and the banned Nana, who admitted she's afraid of punks and sociopaths, and Brain, who admitted she's afraid of ridicule, and Ed Deak who, like me, would never post under a phony name, having participated in one of the latter day wars to end all wars.

I'm into disclosure, openness, responsibility, courage--you know, "obsessive" stuff like that. And yes, you have chosen some appropriate words to describe my opinion of cowards who are too scared to post their names in the safest country on earth.

How dare you be this afraid.

Did you notice the Chinese fellow who stood up to a tank during Tianenman?

And heaven forbid any of you would call yourselves Christians, knowing that your chief mentor went willingly to the cross and apparently suffered soley for your personal benefit, and all under his own name.

What would you fraidy-cats do if you had to stand up to a despot or tyrant who viewed your existence as fodder for his/her narcissistic psychopathology--voice your opposition under phony names?

Time to stand up. If the trains start heading to concentration camps again some day it will be too late.

Verrrrry interesting. But crackers.

You raised the notion of the "chief mentor of the Christians" using his own name ... and you tell the world that I'm letting J.C. down (and millions who died in WWII) by stitching together an actual ID for myself to use on my blog.

I got to wondering. Did J.C.'s Mom get her mail addressed to Mary Christ? His Dad was Joe Christ? I don't think so. In fact, J.C. claimed his Dad was God. How about that, eh? So Jesus Christ wasn't his real name, Truman!

I even googled the question and got 6,663,000 answers. Here's one:

JESUS CHRIST - Je'sus, the proper, as Christ is the official, name of our Lord. To distinguish him from others with the same name, he is spoken of as "Jesus of Nazareth" (John 18:7), and "Jesus the son of Joseph" (John 6:42).

So I figure Dorothy & I can rest our case. We're not anonymous; we've just chosen a helpful ID ... as did the Chief mentor of the Christians who also used a stitched-together name indicative of his location and mission, a tidy name by which he can be "spoken of", as it says.

Pretty much the same idea as "BC Mary", so I think you'd agree it's an approved style. Nothing to make such a fuss about.

But thanks for the tip. Sorta feels like the Seal of Approval.

BC Mary, what in heaven are you talking

about?

Various locations have been recommended as 'best'last refuges, but I think you've taken a new cake for yourself with your choice of a parable by which Jesus Christ was also known as Jesus of Nazareth--as your rationalization for being too frightened to do your blog--and even this discussion--under your real name.

To wit: the best last refuge of a dissembling rationalizer is a pseudoanalogue about Jesus Christ being known by a different name than his mom and dad.

And here's your zinger: Jesus Christ was known as Jesus of Nazareth, therefore BC Mary has no responsibility fo divulge her true identity while doing online journalism and commentary.

Huh? It doesn't really fit, Mar.

Unless, of course, I must conclude that you have chosen the name, B.C. Mary in order that people will have an improved understanding of who you are and by what name your are known, as you say, "In real life."

But more on topic...

The Tyee's answer to an insufficient readership is: advertise--like every other business venture, although considering that the Tyee requests no subscription fees, it is completely approprite for it to request help from its regular readers in spreading the news--which, I bet, most of us do whenever we get the chance. I suspect, though that this space may already be close to a full complement of justice-seekers, disclosed or anonymous. You gotta care about things beyond the horsepower in your car and your chances of doing a new sundeck to get overly interested in this kind of site, and not a huge number of people do.

Truman

The first loads of people on the trains will be those that used their real names :-)

Got it, Truman. This is a new Monty Python Show

Dang. Humour doesn't work either. Although urging me to live up to the high standards of CanWest journalism was pretty funny.

Guess I'll have to give up on you ... and let it remain a mystery as to why you're so all-fired curious about my personal life. Seemed a bit rude, actually. As in, wtf do you think you are?

Or, for that matter, why you're so determined to be hurtful. Also rude. Plus mean-spirited, crass, and loutish. In the nicest possible way, of course.

So shall we sign off with that inspiring old Eric Idle song, rendered as he was being crucified (for being Brian): "Always look on the bright side of life ... ta da ... ta da ... "

Yes, Frank, that may be so, but it will be

those who sacrificed themselves for the cause of honour, and for the protection of their neighbours, who should be remembered by surviving generations, not those cowering in delusional concealment in the hope that they would not be noticed by the murderers. Afterall, it was the chief mentor, referred to above, who proposed that there is no greater love than that of he (or she) who has laid down his life for a friend.

There might be hope for you, afterall, Frank. It seems that you've reached the first of twelve steps: Hello, my name is ----------
and I'm afraid to post under my real name.

Mar, I wasn't born yesterday. If you're hurt

by my pronouncements of your disfunctional thoughtfulness regarding dislosure, it must be because you recognize a kernel of truth if what I am saying. Otherwise, you'd just blow me off and continue to enjoy your glee that nobody knows who you are as you go about doing your legislative blog and other online commentary.

Afterall, of the many commenting and reading here, I am the only one making such accusations of cowardice and atrophied moral developement among anonymous commenters. In fact, as long as I've been harping away on this issue, (two years, perhaps?) only two readers have even remotely conceded to any vestige of agreement with me. As I said, one was Brain, who supplied her real name after admitting to a fear of ridicule; the other Nana, who admitted to being scared.

Not to worry, Mar. It's only me against thousands, eh.

And now the holy man will speak...

“And heaven forbid any of you would call yourselves Christians,...”

Now there you are really way out into the hemp. Christians not only can, but must call themselves Christians, since, as the only religion I know about, it contains a dictum to its believers of professing their faith.

Everybody else – is it 70% of people in Greater Vancouver, can call themselves Christians too, since they either have no religion and are therefore free to do as they please, or they have one that does not forbid them to call themselves something else for self-protection. Since the Jews under Spain’s inquisition, the Kurdish Yezidis surrounded by Muslims, and many others around the world, who are known only as variants of a mainstream religion, this has been common practice. Heaven may forbid it, but it has traditionally been of little effect that it did.

I see you are grappling with what to do and how to do it in case of extreme oppression. Heroic, perhaps, the students who sacrificed their lives at Tiananmen square, but they are not there for the next round, are they? It is not just about being willing to give one’s life, but also about choosing to do it where it will count and accomplish something. Quit the bravado and respect those with some staying power. You are getting tiresome.

A complicated issue

A complicated issue:

The problem is the rich, the powerful, the influential, and the corrupt ensure their own anonymity all the time....whenever it is found to be convenient or necessary or profitable. Meanwhile, the lives of the less rich, the less powerful, the less influential and the less corrupt are increasingly invaded, controlled, and manipulated through increasingly invasive information gathering.

This is Arundhati Roy, talking unapologetically about Iraq and the necessity sometimes of the use of guile for resistance and survival:

No Truman

Once again, I think you’re mistaken. In that passage from John, Chapter 15, Christ is meant to be speaking to his disciples and not to the world at large. He is addressing, as the passage notes, HIS FRIENDS.

There is no way in which anyone could use that statement meaningfully in this context as an admonishment against someone using a label rather than his or her own name; it is a red herring. Furthermore, as others have pointed out before, there are a variety of reasons for retaining one's anonymity that have absolutely nothing to do with fear. I think the fact you're almost the only person who thinks the issue is at all important is also noteworthy.

The fact you post in the open certainly doesn't seem to have restricted your propensity to draw unwarranted conclusions about others and what they write, believe or understand. People who use the fact that they post under their own name to apply a little stick to someone with whom they disagree who posts under some other label are, it seems to me, the ones whose tactics should be reconsidered.

In addition, when push comes to shove it's really about how open one actually is to communication and friendship isn't it?

Names really have nothing to do with such important ideas as respect and sensitivity to others' feelings and to the sincerity of their ideas and views.

At least that's the way I see it.

9:48 am On this thread

Ratio of comments considered Best Comments to All Comments: 11 : 62

9:48 am June 3

I still think that kind of reaction to the people who've been Tyee's most consistent supporters, fans and commenters isn't very welcoming to 'them'.

Not to mention the default view it gives the newcomers whose participation this new program is meant to encourage.

There's no way around it, this is a subtle form of censorship and a not so subtle imposition of values that makes Tyee a less open and friendly, not to mention, open-minded community.

Again, in my view, and on the basis of the eveidence so far.

Perspective

The worst thing about the internets is that it makes everyone think they're an expert on everything. And dammit, we need to make sure everyone has unfettered access to my brilliance!

I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of the people who visit this site are coming to read the articles, not to post or read comments. So GWest, with all due respect, give it a rest.

Truman ... two points of clarification:

1) My real name is Mary ... not the thing you devised which may rhyme with "star" or with "stare", neither of which (if you called it out to me) would I recognize as referring to me. So where do you get off, messing with my real name ... and then granting yourself the right to hurl insults because you -- nobody else -- just you, want the full name, maybe my address, Social Insurance Number, shoe size, my entire contributions to civic life in Canada (remember, you gave me a failing grade on that already) ... where does the intrusion stop?

2) If communication is at the root of your many complaints (which I doubt), there's this other dead-obvious point, you fool: anybody can use the "e.mail" button on my blog to send me a private message.

But you've never been to The Legislature Raids, have you Truman. You didn't even know the mandate or the policy it runs on. But you feel qualified to hurl the insults. You're fulla crap, Troom, and I'da much rather not known that.

Your entire hypothesis is crap. BC Mary is not "anonymous" or unreachable or vindictive. You've devised idiotic reasoning to create a truly original piece of lunacy which should call for a new banning (attacking another commenter).

But go ahead, be block-headed if you must. You're pretty much obligated to be rude and mean-spirited, if that's your idea of what WWII was about.

I'm fairly sure you won't be banned, though, Truman, because why? Because we remember you from other times and in other ways.

But if you don't call that a community, well, OK: then call it a family.

Note to Dorothy: I'm not hurt, not "upset", but am finally angry ...

Well, Jonagold

If readers is all you're after, and one's interested in attracting, then this whole promotional exercise is kind of silly, isn't it?

I'm not making any subjective evaluations of what anyone's writing here.

Are you?

It's just 'tough love," Mary.

Your anonymity--and that of all these other people--embarasses me, because I'd like to think highly of you whenever I log on to the forum, and I'd like to bring you and all the others along to a higher level of integrity, responsibility for your commentary and personal honour.

Arrogant, eh!

Plus, I'm always concerned about the agenda and identificaion of posters who respond to controversial issues. An excellent case in point is the current Danielle Egan article regarding hpv vaccination.

Are the people opposing Egan's presentation of possible faults and scientific opposition to the mass vaccinations really just objective readers?
Or are they representatives of Merck or do they have other vested interest in the mass vaccinations, which will eventually make billions for Merck.

One of the posters even claimed that the vaccinations have been proven effective for boys, to which I requested more information and a source for this claim. Vaccinating boys with gardasil would mean more billions, so I like to know if the proponents have a vested interest--or not.

I like to know this kind of stuff and anonymity precludes it. I'm really curious about the world and I like to have conditions for authentic learning in place as much as possible.

Referring to you as "Mar," was just a playful tit for tat at your calling me "Troom."

Absolutely!

I'm always making subjective evaluations. When, for example, people who have no clue what they're talking about are arguing against hard scientific data (think about the climate change debate), I think those people are fools.

Look, much of what's written on the web is unadulterated idiocy. If more people would shut the hell up and listen to those who actually have some knowledge, this planet would probably be in a lot better shape.

Don't get me wrong; I am in favour of free expression and I am certainly in favour of muckraking. Mary's Basi-Virk trial is a beautiful example of healthy citizen journalism. And even on this site, there are posters (yourself included, lots of the time) who contribute something other than run-of-the-mill, yes-I-agree or no-I-don't-agree space-filler. However, most discussion boards are virtual masturbatoria; people proudly show off their own prowess but do very little to actually advance the discussion. Contribute new information, or come up with a unique thought, or don't waste time.

Is this promotional exercise silly? Perhaps. That's the business model, however. Get more customers by word of mouth. Every business since Og was selling rocks out of his cave has done the same thing.

The BC in BC Mary

BC Mary's blog while being a great source of information on both the legislature raids and the resulting court case has also demonstrated to the mainstream media and the justice system that there is a public deeply interested in the case, hungry for the truth, hungry for the details of that truth and extremely concerned about the implications of these revelations to the state of democracy in BC...and in Canada.

Without BC Mary's blog, and those blogs who stand alongside it in their determination to investigate and question this remarkable, not to mention, historical raid on our legislature, there would be no place for us to consistently discuss those implications day after day, pool the resources and information of citizen journalists and bring to light what Big Media has largely chosen to ignore or down-play.

While articles on this important case come and go, and often have to be searched for high and low, BC Mary's place is always open and accessible for updates and input. I think it has had real "gravatas" and influence in moving this case forward and in keeping the many questions the raid on our legislature unearthed both focused and always at the fore of its quest.

For that we should be very grateful.

So this Danielle Eagen gives her full name ...

... and there's still some huge moral problem going on in your mind, is that right Truman?? Something all the rest of us who sign in with our USER NAMES -- oughta worry about? Cripes, you are unbelievable.

I ask you: when did I ever ... ever ... set myself up as an expert? You do, often. BC Mary, no. So here's the deal: when I do tell you that I'm a world's authority on Legislature Raids, go ahead, start ripping. Right now, it's obviously YOU who has a negative agenda.

So identify yourself, Truman: what's your purpose? Show us how it's done.

On The Legislature Raids, what I try very hard to do is to stand in the place where "Everyman" would stand, to ask the questions Everyman would ask, and to gather up the information which leads to Everyman understanding this trial in his/her own way. I'm deeply grateful to Lynn for recognizing this and for telling me it has helped.

You boast of tough love? Blush, for chrissake. Tough Love, in fact, is a crap shield for sadism. In this case, your use of it is adding nothing whatever to anyone's understanding of The Legislature Raids.

Remember our old Tyee battle at the time of Irving Layton's death? I was probably wrong to have told that anecdote about Layton. I was right to talk about other poets I had loved: especially Leonard Cohen and Al Purdy. You got so furious ... put me through my paces, you did ... but you were on solid ground then. And since that battle was about love and belonging, so was I. That was the old Tyee. A good battle. You were a worthy opponent.

On the other hand, this stuff where you're trying to tear down something useful ... this is mean, destructive crap. And what's more, I'm angry that you've robbed me of a friend. F.y.i., it doesn't help one iota to know that his full name is Truman Green. I just wish it were Kermit and that I could be big enough and strong enough to love you in spite of it all. Maybe someday. But right now, I'd just like to k.y.a. Real hard. With boots on. Ijit.

oops

sorry, should be..."gravitas" in my comment above...I'll blame it on heat-stroke ;-)...anyone got a large, tall glass of iced tea?...just pour it over me...gawd it's hot today. ;-)

Mary, do you remember me logging on to

your blog and telling you how proud we are of you for the work you've done? I know you do because you thanked me for it at the time. And do you remember me congratulating you on this thread for seeming to have no agenda other than altruism. My point regarding the Eagan hpv article is that everyone might not be as objective and as honest as you, and that it's never possible to know the agenda of posters who offer opposition or support to very controversial and important issues, unless you can do some due diligence on their true identity.

There's no chance of me destroying any forum or blog with my extreme minority view that anonymity should not be enabled by online media because editors understand that to ban anonymous posters would be a kind of media and business suicide. There just ain't enough people in our society who are willing to express their opinions openly.

Once again Truman

You tend to refuse to recognize that labels and names aren't important - what people say and write ought to be the standard(s) they are judged by - not whom they are, or whom they profess to be.

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that your views ARE extreme in this respect. Anyone who comes here and implies that the fact they use any particular name or names somehow infuses the content of their views with some special kind of veritas is, I'd suggest, trying to impress his (her) readers with their identity and not the quality of their intellect or their range of knowledge.

Civil discussion, no matter what the subject matter, is a result of the way we 'feel' about others and their ideas - it ought to have nothing to do with the little sign that identifies the poster.

In my opinion.

Since learning of G.West's various identities

--only one of which he acknowledges,that being Alcibiades--I don't like to communicate with him--especially after holding long, serious, (I thought) simultaneous discussions with both of these ahem.. gentlemen, but if I did I'd ask him/her why he thought it appropriate to congratulate me, as he did, for being one of the only ones with the courage to always post under my real name. (Ed Deak or at least one of Ed's friends, took exception). I can look up the thread and quote directly, if necessary.

Which would tend to qualify his above comment for fascinating wonderment, or at least put it comfortably into the usual G.West-Alcibiades reference box, in which brilliant, but specious rationalizations can be found, many of which are uniquely suitable (or useful) for any point of view currently in favour with their owner.

I might also add, that while I'm not recommending banishment for BC Mary for admitting to a certain desire to kick my butt, (as she so recommended me for "attaching" her, anonymously cloaked as 'kya'{kick your ass}), I would suggest that perhaps her need to offer such pointed retribution--as it were, by the front edge of a heavy shoe, or boot, might qualify for editorial deletion. hee hee.

Truman

Fine with me Truman. You seem to prefer calling people ‘names’ and laughing at or about them even when you're nominally addressing other issues.

No rationalizations at all. And only two labels for exactly one year – as I’ve had to point out far too often already.

As far as refusing to communicate, you're the only one who has refused to do that - as you well know - so I'll just leave that where it lies.

I can't remember the circumstances when I said I thought your using your own name was courageous - if I did, I suspect it related to something personal. Context, after all, is always important. And, it is such a BIG deal for you - so I suppose I thought, in a certain personal context, that that was courageous.

If you think a little bit about it I think you'll figure that one out too Truman.

Peoples' personal lives are their own business and the fact they have opinions, unless they are charging for them, or running for political office, should not mean that they have to put those lives on public display unless they wish to.

Sometimes it isn't very far from courageous to foolhardy and the fact that people have families and connections outside Tyee is, I should have thought, a commonplace. I occasionally have interesting political conversations in a bar. I don't think that entitles my interlocutors to know anything about my personal life.

In the end, it seems to me that if one's ideas can't stand on their own, the label one posts with them is irrelevant. And finally, these threads always, without exception, tend to degrade when people get personal, which is, I'd assert, just another argument that favours anonymity in almost all cases.

I would say, however, that whenever I charge for my writing, I always use my own name. And no one has ever paid me a penny for anything I ever wrote here at Tyee. In the end, Truman, friendship is as friendship does. I think that was the point Mary was actually trying to make. I’m sorry it seems to be beyond you.

Isn't that the title of this little thread?

Help us find new friends.

Commercial Drive Festival

www.commercialdrivefestival.org website with contact information for the Car Free Commercial Drive Days happening on June 17th and July 22. There will be 40,000 people there and a table set up showing how the Tyee has written articles on Gateway, P3s and other issues not covered by CanWest will pick up lots of new subscribers. It will cost $25 for a table.