The new comments format

Hi Dawn:

Thanks for asking. I don't recall the Fall 2005 survey, I must've been on holiday. But would like to have said (what I've always thought): that The Tyee's old layout was the most clear, simple, welcoming layout for making a contribution as well as for reading all the comments afterward.

The new format is troubling in several ways.

* Its jumbled beginning. Is a subject heading really necessary when we're all on topic? Or is this a place where a change of topic is to be suggested?

* The subject is unavoidably repeated in Line #1, which means that it becomes an annoyance, somewhat dimishing the point of what the commentor wanted to say.

* The diminished ID creates a slow-down while I peer into the tiny green slot to figure out who's speaking. Some commentors I read carefully; others I skip.

* The pale grey typeface on a slightly coloured background is not easy to read -- and I have good eyesight.

* The new preview function is welcome, though IMO not strictly necessary.

Question: Did I really, honest-to-god, make more than 800 comments? Or is that an error?

A suggestion: could the site administrator drop in, become visible -- perhaps on a regular basis -- and chat about the issues you've had, or have heard about from us. There's way too much of a disconnect between The Tyee and its devotees which is really quite surprising, given our loyalty. There is, for one thing, a growing dissatisfaction with the quality of Tyee articles these days. It would be good to talk about that, don't you think?

Best wishes, of course!

I favour a return to the old

I favour a return to the old commenting system with the addition of a preview option. A subject line is not needed, nor is the incessant "Commenting rules" link.

Thanks for asking.

Some good, mostly bad

1. Get rid of the subject window - it's an annoyance and unnecessary. Half the posters don't use it and the default to the first few words of text is lame.

2. Go back to the original tags icons. These are just silly.

3. Find a way to make your archived material consistently readable. It's a mess now.

4. Larger compose pane on Tyee Books. This is an old issue that's now worse than it was originally. The tags functions in 'books' have never worked.

5. The edit/preview function is nice.

6. Increase the font size for commenter's name.

7. Address privacy issues - I didn't realize the system was not completely private - in other words, if Darcy McGee's concerns are valid, they need to be addressed.

8. Find a way for users to notify tech staff as problems arise...in the past they've snowballed before anyone takes notice.

9. Get rid of the repeating "commenting rules" icon - give it ONE permanent location on the desktop - that's more than enough.

10. Make the post text (final version) darker, the current (new) version is pallid and hard to read.\

11. What are the length defaults? Is there still a 60 second default betweend posts?

12. Thanks for asking. It'd be nice if you would post some summaries of this feed back. Thanks for trying.

Two cents worth

I agree with some of the above comments, i.e.,

1. Subject line unnecessary.

2. Enlarge commenter's name. A color besides that "wishy washy" green would create better contrast, e.g., red or just plain black.

3. Lose "Commenting rules" line.

4. Increase font size for comments. I must squint to read them or lean in way too close to the monitor with my reading glasses. We're not all twenty years old here!

As DJT said, for goodness

As DJT said, for goodness sake increase the font size and make it darker!!!! I'm already wearing my reading glasses and I'm starting to look for a magnifying glass! :-)

The subject line is unecessary, and one link to the commenting rules would be quite sufficient, thank you.

Tyee Privacy Rules

Hi Everyone. Here's some information on The Tyee's privacy rules, and where they are posted.

When you sign up to comment, right below the email box it says:

Insert a valid e-mail address. All e-mails from the system will be sent to this address. The e-mail address is not made public and will only be used if you wish to receive a new password or wish to receive certain news or notifications by e-mail.

----------

We also reference your privacy in the Tyee Commenting Rules/FAQ (click the link at the bottom of every comment: http://thetyee.ca/Comments/FAQ).

5. Can other commentors or members of the public email me?

No. All your information, except for your login name is confidencial and is kept by The Tyee only for the purpose of contacting you if the need arises.

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Our longer privacy rules are only now prominant in the enewsletter subscription area. I'll add these to the comment sign up area as well.

Here's the current link to them https://enews.thetyee.ca/lists/privacy.html

and the body of the text reads:

The Tyee Takes Your Privacy Seriously

Further to the provision of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, personal information is kept confidential by the Tyee, and will not be sold, traded, released or distributed to any other individuals, organizations or agencies without prior consent.

Measures have been enacted to ensure the integrity of personal information and to protect it from misuse, loss or alteration. All information submitted to the Tyee is only available to employees managing this information. Email addresses are only used for the purposes of Tyee related correspondence.

If you have concerns related to your privacy please contact us at info AT thetyee.ca

------------

darcy.mcgee, you are mistaken. The only time I would have had any need to look for your email address is if we were warning you that one of your posts was defamitory and was being deleted or edited.

The major reason why we need your email address is we want to contact people if there is a problem with one of their posts, to inform them of the meaning of libel (defaming someone's public reputation, or lying about them), or to tell them that flaming (personal insults) in Tyee Comments will not be tolerated. (See Commenting Rule for more information).

----------

Or are you saying you want a username to login with that is different from your 'display name'? One reason we don't do this is people tend to forget their login names if they are different from their 'display name' or public handle.

However now you can also login in with your email address and password. So the email address becomes a kind of alternate login name.

We require your First and Last names so we know who we are talking to if we need to email you, and to help us in cases where someone claims they are being impersonated on The Tyee. However neither your First or Last name or your email address are available to the general public.

I'll reply to other comments over the next few days.

And thanks for being patient while we work out the glitches this week.

Thanks

Something new just came up,

Something new just came up, when I click the "return" arrow, a box comes up with some blurb about "expired", then keeps on coming up time after time.

To return to the main page, I have to shut off the whole Tyee site and start from new again.

Ed Deak.

Squinting too

I also find the type size is too small.
It is much easier to read a comment before it's posted than after.

Frank

I remember that survey. I wanted an "Ignore Elliot" function and never got it :-)
Okay, so he's not THAT bad.

I'm fine with the comments, whatever makes your life easier is fine with me. And I support the use of open-source tools.

However, I'd prefer the commentor name and the subject line switch places. Nor is there any need to see the Rules link under every post.

I'm 2,000 posts ahead of you Mary :-)

It works for me. And thanks

It works for me. And thanks for this service.

Although many of us take it for granted, it's very good of The Tyee to allow readers to post their commentary. Notwithstanding the occasional tangent, tantrum, hissy-fit and clash-of-egos, on the whole it seems to be a constructive exercise.

Quotes are worse

It is really uncomfortable for those of us with less than perfect sight to read the comments as they are presently configured.

Argh!

Now I'm really confused. Unlike the Glavin thread, the quote is actually easier to read on this thread than the main comment.

I quess it will all be sorted out this week. I find the comments a great source of information and thank you all for your efforts.

Font size increase!

Well I sincerely apologize for making people squint!

I've adjusted the font size and wonder if it is more readable for people?

We did have good feedback on the smaller font size for some people because they were able to see more comments without scrolling. However they were young 'whipper snappers' (20 and 30- somethings).

As well I hope people realize they can increase the font size of any web site using thier browser. In firefox go to the menu item View > Increase Font Size.

That makes everything much bigger.

I tried increasing the font

I tried increasing the font size in IE
and if had no effect. Still too small for comfort, but then I guess the boss won't be able to read over my shoulder.

Font size

It shouldn't have to be any higher than 100% dawn....and it's not so much an issue of size as it is an issue of saturation. Bold - at the 100% View setting is about right now.
Perhaps what is needed is a different font entirely. A good demonstration is to compare the readability of the Times New Roman font in the comment composition pane with the Arial Narrow ( I think that's what you're using) in the previous posted message.

If space on the desktop is a problem (you mentioned scrolling) get some of the extra 'stuff' out of the way - 'commenting rules', subject etc.
And why organize the desktop the way you do? Surely you could use the available space better and eliminate the grey stripes up each side of the screen. Everything looks cramped and uncomfortable now.

You're going to be sorry you asked!

Font size and other changes.

The comment font size is actually bigger now than it was in in the old comments. Some people may have to restart their browsers to see the changes. If you are having continued difficulties do email me at infoAT thetyee.ca and I'll try to help you work through the issue.

The Subject line is working well. We're glad to see how many people have started to summarize their points using that field. The user name is also going to stay where it is, as will the commenting rules (which should really be called Commenting Help), however we will be adding more functional links to that area so perhaps it won't seem so visually isolated soon.

We are going to keep monitoring the way people are using the comments over the coming months and will refine these elements if they are posing a problem for people.

I still have work to do to fix the preview functions so sit tight.

And gwest when you say "You're going to be sorry you asked!", I find that quite disappointing. I am opening up a dialogue here and do not want to be sorry I asked. I appreciate the constructive and polite feedback from many of our commentors- and I am not sorry I asked them!

From G West

That was meant to be funny Dawn. I think it should have been obvious.

The font definitely is not correct, for whatever reason and the fact that quotes are significantly smaller than regular text is still a problem. I have re-started several times so that's no solution. The composing pane is, plain and simple, more readable than the posted text. I won't say anything about the preview pane, but it's obviously too small as well.

The subject box is just lame and unnecessary - and the scale and colour of the poster's name is wrong.

Also, what's the point of asking for comments if, when you find most everyone agrees about something that could be changed, you come back with this:

I think the criticism HAS been constuctive. I'm sorry to say your attitude - quoted above - isn't.

You may be satisfied. I think it's pretty clear from what I've been reading today and yesterday that others aren't.

To dawn - errata

'constructive', not constuctive, was intended.

I told you the preview pane (yellow background) was too small for effective editing!

Poster user names and subject lines

I congratulate the Tyee staff with coming up with a way to reduce the visual impact of displayed names - formerly utilised, (it appeared to me at least) as a kind of (ideological) "slogan" or "propogandist billboard" by some posters, which also happens to be a well known ploy of trollers and "fanboys" of whatever persuasion.

Well Done Tyee.

I quite like a subject line: which to me is the posters principal overall vision of their comment, (hopefully) prefacing pertinent remarks related to the subject - and dare to dream - the article . Subject lines are also a courtesy to later visitors to the thread, assisting them in zoning in on possible key points.

Before the change it seemed (in heated cases) of the "subject-free" battle of prominently displayed "name-as-logo" acting out, or trolling for the particular day's tantrum or peeing match.

Ideas deserve the screen space. Not the egos.

Thank you for asking.

G West to Chris Bouris

I thought the 'subject' was set, more or less, by the introductory journalism. Is it now okay for folks to post 'personal conversation with so and so' and then just proceed to gossip?

However, if people actually specify a subject and don't just default to the first few words of their post I have no particular problem with it. I can't understand why anyone should be ashamed of being responsible for their ideas. In fact, it's quite un-troll-like to actually stand by what one says. Perhaps we could institute a rating system too.

If I'm looking back over a number of posts to find a particular comment I find being able to read the author's name is a big advantage - don't you?

Anyway, I guess we'll all bend it to our own uses as we see fit. I still think it's a waste of space, space that Dawn seems to be saying is at a premium.

CB to G West: comments and rating posts

With respect - you thought (and you largely practice that). Can't say that's been anywhere near the same for a great number of posters. For some it comes off as "welcome to my blog", and today's entry goes like this..

As you probably know, some comment forums have internally held, personal "offline" messaging, from registered users to registered users. It's a discretionary thing if one feels its serves a later readership to view this publicly in a main thread section - and if it genuinely relates to the article in question.

I also think it's a very significant challenge for a new reader of a thread to plunge into an amorphous blob of posts which often are rife with insults between posters. Actually, there really is a problem in this regard some times on these threads.

Rating is censorship a kind of violation of expression, a violation of the individual and demeaning. Violating others through insult or slander is similar.
This is a tricky topic, and may be more suited to general input discussion by the Tyee at a later stage. I'll keep it brief if I can.

There are full moderation systems where moderators decide, as well as reader based "rating" systems of posts: minus 5 (-5) through plus 5 (5+) as is at Slashdot in terms of the latter - and in the latter there is a default display anything plus 1 (1+) and over. They even label the post if it's interesting, informative, trolling, etc. In other words, if you act and post like a screwball according to the public viewers-as-moderators, you don't make the public's default viewing radar. If you want the whole barrel, well, you can set it for that manually.

It's a bigger, messier thing - as it needs a lot of viewers agreeing to assume the responsibilty - and still that little animal has to be "managed" as well ( which equals staff time), hence one or a few moderators pulling (potentially) libellous stuff on the Tyee.

If the scope and frequency of the articles grow on the Tyee - and the number of posters increases significantly - which'd be a "good thing" (tm) in my view, then something will need to eveolve in the moderation strategy.

I like a lot of posters, not but "regulars" holding "court". The former speaks of a much healthier publication, and implys a richer source of diverse input - and also speaks well of reach of the ideas presented in articles. and it's good for advertising revenue for the Tyee I suppose :)
If people want blogs, let them get their own.

I'm going to stop, and post no more on this in this thread. Best wishes.

G West to Chris Bouris

As I said, I'd be perfectly happy with a rating system. I dislike the subject thing because it defaults to the first few words of a post. If you go back to an archived story, you'll see how meaningless it can be.

If it's used responsibly I think I can live with it - but I think the author deserves equal billing.

For several reasons:
1. It permits the regular reader to simply breeze by poseurs like Elliot and IAMC who aren't really interested in anything but mudslinging anyway; (although I’d defend their right to do that as long as they aren’t posting libel or slander) and

2. It is just the way most people remember things - as a mnemonic we recall people's names and not something as esoteric as a particular subject especially when the assignment of the subject is left to the writer. If I'm going back over a particular thread - even if I use the Tyee search function - it's a writer's name that I use to find it; and

3. I actually think that Tyee has improved a lot lately and that's mostly because some 'regulars' aren't prepared to just let the slagging and ad hominem stuff go. I think the editors have had to intervene far less frequently of late than when I first started posting regularly a year ago.

4. I agree that there is some confusion in people’s minds and that a number of people have the mistaken impression that this is a blog; but

5. At the same time, I do think that many of the writer’s contributions here are equally literate and often far more challenging than the ‘journalism’ itself. And, if there is a popularity aspect to this, it is quite easy to evaluate which ‘stories’ create the most interest.

I do think, in a certain sense, that some of Tyee's editors tend to take the role of readers and posters for granted. And I think Dawn's remark above was evidence of that. However, text tends to be a little cold and it may not have been intended. Just as she mistook my 'light' remark, I may have misconstrued her dismissiveness of what seems to me to be a generally negative reaction to some of the changes.

That's the thing about accountability - it really doesn't mean anything when all the power is on one side of the fence.

comments

I like seeing how many comments I've made - what about a list of links to the articles I've commented on? And changing the time since last comment to a link to the last article I commented on?

Commenting rules only needs to be on a page once, with 100+ comments it really adds to the scrolling too - if you were trying to keep that to a minimum.

I also don't really see the need for a comment subject, but I can live with and might even use it sometimes ;-)

The preview function is a great addition, thanks.

Keep up the good work!

Here here!

Starting to imagine what it must be like managing the posters here.
So far so good: in general things are readable for me and I'll get used to login where I usually have to go back and search for the article I was interested in. Should I log in before reading?

I am now logging out after each post. Seemed to be recommended. Can the loggout button be placed near the post comment?

Good "work in Progress"

No more squinting

Thank you for the font adjustment- much better now. I still, however, feel the user name would be easier to read if it were red, or black (bold) instead of the green, but maybe it's just me. Not a big deal anyway.

Thanks from G West

Credit where credit is due Dawn. Removing the yellow background and reformating the preview view is a huge improvement.

Much appreciated.

comments

Take a look at the way Wired is doing comments now - very very nice. Subject and poster only, click on it and the comments appear without a page reload. Would make it easy to skip past the flame baiters and read just the interesting people. See an example here:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72452-0.html?tw=wn_index_15

I could help with that, I'm pretty good with javascript & css and have done similar things before.

One other addition - threading. Replying to a comment and having the reply hang under that comment would be a HUGE improvement. That way when people get into stupid name calling spats, it would all be under the one thread that people could just skip past without expanding.

Two fairly major changes, but with very major benefits. For your consideration. Again I would be glad to help, I could take a sample article and mark it up to work with collapsing like Wired does it for you, it wouldn't be that complicated. Threading would take a lot more behind the scenes work. Anyway, you have my email address, feel free to contact me about it.

Its not clear to me , Haraldkann

Are you complaining about something?
I always try to use big words - I heard that it might help to stave off Alzhiemers.

So what I've been noticing since the changes here is:
1) If I do not log in I can not read the latest posts. Often what I see when I scroll the comments is my last post 12 hours old. If I login the later posts show up.
2) varied error messages when I attempt to logout. (only happens sometimes).
3) Sometimes the system seems to bog down and the note in the lower left corner says: "waiting for thetyee"

Otherwise I am still happy to be here.
Ken

hehe harald

How about "utilize"? That one always makes me snicker inside. Ummm, you mean "use" right? Funcionality never really bothered me though, you can talk about the functional aspects, or the funcionalilty. I guess it's a *little* weird when I think about, but it's so common that it never really catches my notice.

Anyway, lighten up jackhole!

Font Problems?

Hi all, (This is my 1st post so, please be gentle... at least at first ;-)

To everyone who is having difficulty in reading the Tyee's default font size (like me), I can't more strongly recommend you download Mozilla Firefox and ditch your Internet Explorer browser immediately! It will improve your web browsing experience immeasurably!

There's a (very small and unobtrusive!) link for you to do so conveniently located near the bottom of the left column on the Tyee Home page. Try it - you'll never go back! (Don't forget to make it your Default Browser too)

Increasing font size couldn't be easier - just hold down the Ctrl key and press the + sign on your number pad. Repeat as necessary. You can reverse the process with the - sign.

You're welcome!! (in advance)
~ B

suggestion

I really like Alternate's format where you can either post a new comment in response to the article or respond to a comment. Then discussions that don't respond directly to an article can be more contained and less distracting.

Alternet also lets readers report inappropriate comments.

Thanks for the advice

Beresford:
And welcome to this forum!
I would take your advice immediately but my wife uses this thing once in a while and she is not pleased with major changes in layout - besides that we just paid to have our "Nerd" come and straighten things out in the CPU box.

It seems like the glitches are getting sorted - I haven't had an error message in a few days - but I like some of the ideas proposed: navigation back and forth is still sometimes slow.

thetyee: thanks for keeping the site working through this and your respose to complaints.
Ken

Thanks for the advice

Beresford:
And welcome to this forum!
I would take your advice immediately but my wife uses this thing once in a while and she is not pleased with major changes in layout - besides that we just paid to have our "Nerd" come and straighten things out in the CPU box.

It seems like the glitches are getting sorted - I haven't had an error message in a few days - but I like some of the ideas proposed: navigation back and forth is still sometimes slow.

thetyee: thanks for keeping the site working through this and your respose to complaints.
Ken

Peacefull coexistance and Usability

Thanks Ken,

Wouldn't want you to be in the 'doggone house' with the Mrs!

I actually have both browsers installed, but I'm sure there's a pile of dust on top of the little blue 'e' icon on my desktop. The only time it ever gets used is on those very rare occasions I access my Yahoo mail. For some reason Yahoo is still 'married' to the little blue 'e'.

As for the topic at hand...

I like the Subject field. I think it helps posters focus their various thoughts/comments and helps me sort out the 'flame baiters' (as someone noted above)

Threading would be a great way to keep the off topic "comment comments" in one place so one could just skip over them and go to the comments that pertain to the actual Article topics.

As a brand new user, I find the Comment Preview and Post process quite intuitive (this being only my 2nd attempt), but would like to see the "Commenting Help" file include some more 'practical' help - like how to use the Quote and Link features. And what the heck is a Teaser Break? And exactly where in my post will my open tags be closed if I click that little green Nike button?

I notice that when you highlight a word and click the Bold or Italic button, your word gets UNhighlighted and you're returned to the top of your post instead of back where you were - Kinda clunky, but maybe that's purposeful for keeping uncecessary Bolding and Italicing to a minimum?

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the new 'look' of the Tyee comments.
~ B

Quote:By agreeing to these

Does this mean we can't call a politician an idiot?

I did like what I thought was an anonymity aspect. Do I understand correctly that there is no anonymity and that you can supply our email addresses to whomever?

Firefox

Beresford:
I did it anyhow - she's out taking the grandson to do "Happy (birthday) to you" for his Great Grandpa. As long as I can select this or that browser (as I understand you do) it is worth a try.
So far so good!

She'll love you for it!

doggone:
Yup - you can launch whichever one makes you happy. Once you show the Mrs. how nice the font adjusting feature is, she'll be sold too.
That alone is worth the price of admission - I find I have way fewer pop-ups as well and anytime I can thumb my nose at you-know-who in Redmond, I'm happy to do so!
~ B

You don't know my "old Lady"

She gets mad when I swear at the printer if it won't behave. Not admitting that I'm "pussy whipped" but I do try to step around her lightly for yo these 35 years. Just now I'm logged in using Firefox and it may be a bit faster.

Tried a search on the internet and ran in to a glitch - I was looking at the new Cummins/Mercruiser Marine propulsion System and something locked up.
As long as it fixes itself I don't mind.

I'm going back to the discussion about Aethyism -ok I have a red line under the word and I know it is wrongly spelled. Does firefox correct spelling?

attention Dawn - another glitch

For some reason the first few lines of a quote are being formatted in a much smaller font than the rest of a long excerpt. The whole thing is indented correctly but the font size changes part way through.

Thanks Dawn - the improvement in the Books format is also very good.

Spelling

I just found the tool bar. Couldn't be simpler.
What about the fact that when I log in I get recent posts but if I simply check thetyee without logging in I usually get my last post claiming it was posted a minute ago when I know it is many hours old?

doggone

Just hit the refresh button - you're getting old cached copy.

If it ain't broke, "fit it anyway"

doggone said,

G West replied to doggone.

Westerly old chap, doggone is correct ,e.g. On the LETHAL DESIGN AT SULLIVAN MINE
story, the last entry says 2 min ago, Im quite sure its 1-2 days old, I tried the refresh thing long ago, no luck.

G West said to the Tyee

Im in total agreement with G West on this complaint. 10- 15 minutes is about my limit now, my eyes simply tire out when reading the comments section.
Im also a follower of the if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it theory. I agree, the Tyee may have required some upgrades, but, couldn’t you have simply fixed the broken wheel? rather than reinvent it.

"Comments are pallid and hard to read"

doggone said,

G West replied to doggone.

Westerly old chap, doggone is correct ,e.g. On the LETHAL DESIGN AT SULLIVAN MINE
story, the last entry says 2 min ago, Im quite sure its 1-2 days old, I tried the refresh thing long ago, no luck.

G West said to the Tyee

Im in total agreement with G West on this complaint. 10- 15 minutes is about my limit now, my eyes simply tire out when reading the comments section.
I agree, the Tyee required some upgrades.On a scale of 10, your about 7.23 up to this point.

Tyee upgrades

Woody, it could still be cached copy. Depends upon what the settings on your computer are. The Tyee has been incredibly inconsisent on sign-up since they started the upgrade. If the browser can't log on within a certain time the default is the last image held in memory - If the normal sign on is slow or down even refreshing won't get you the up to date site - sadly.

Whether or not they'll have all these issues addressed soon is the real question.

That's the way I see it anyway. How regularly your computer is set up to purge its cache is also a factor.

What else?

I'm still using Mozzilla Firefox here but there are still a couple of glitches:
1) Lockup on download - I sit and wait after clicking loggin and finally start pushing buttons: usually another button such as "Home" will jar the system forward.
2) what is the large blank field below the comment box for?

Things appear to be getting somewhat better every day.

This was totally worth

This was totally worth it;

G WEST himself actually admitted in writing to trying to be funny....and THEN had to also point it out that he was trying to be funny ?

That's funny (!) (?)

Vegas beckons (!) (?)

Pinko

Just had a comment in "Books" posted on a pink background. Is this a warning?

My redneck father-in-law calls me a "pinko" but I don't see what I have posted as anything political.

books posts

I saw that. They appear to be taking a huge step backwards with the 'books' format. Clearly the whole site is in flux.