Whay is realy appalling is that the Transportation minister continued lies about the safety of tunnels, were never challanged by the media! Like the RAV line, Falcon lies about a project, the media prints the lies and the lies somehow become truth!

I contacted several tunneling experts and they gave a hearty laugh, when told of Falcon's claim that tunnels are more dangerous. Modern tunnels are much more safer.

How many people have been killed in the Massey Tunnel, when compared to the 'Sea to Sky' or the Putallo bridge?

As one expet told me, "If the tunnel is avoiding a potential grade and ice conditions, it will be safer, no question!"

The real reason probaly lies in the fact that the BC Road Builders Association has no expertise in building tunnels and the cash would flow out of their pockets.

In fact the $3 billion Gateway project is nothing more than a massive [U]legal[/U] kickback scheme to government supporters, ( the Road Builders Association) by building needless highways and grossly overpriced transit schemes such as RAV.

But one will never hear about that in the Sun!

Jimtan, thanks for this summary, thanks too for your efforts on Eagleridge Bluffs.

I can tell you, there were people in Toronto -- and I'm sure elsewhere -- cheering you on loudly whenever CBC Newsworld showed the Eagleridge protesters explaining their mission. Agreed, there was never enough explanation. But the point came across. Now you have something solid to build on.

Never forget that little guy in Tienenmen Square who stood in front of a hostile line of battle tanks and stopped them.

Grumps, you've put your finger right on the raw nerve ... keep on following the money, eh? Solar panels aren't the only way to gather power and shed light.

Now I'm going to check out the Eagleridge Coalition web-site.

This is the second time the Liberals let down that area!
Remember how they were going to reverse the improvements around the Horseshoe terminal?
Still I predict that the people in that area will keep voting for them.

I haven't been following this issue closely. It came across as a NIMBY protest. But one of the protest placards in the pictures had a website on it and on their site is a powerful letter signed by various environmental scientists:

http://eagleridgebluffs.ca/scientists.htm

Maybe we all are too obsessed with the choice between the two options?
Perhaps we should question the need to save a few minutes of travel that it takes extra to simply use the present route around that famous bluff?
Is it really that important to be able to brag about how short a trip it is?
Does it make any damned difference to the majority of citizens in this province if a bunch of rich people have to spend more or less time in their SUV's?
I think we are being sold a package of goods we do not need!
By pushing the issue of which option to take, we are being subjected to the old car-salesman trick of asking which colour car we want, instead of asking if we want a car at all?
Since we are stuck with this expenditure, please re-assess why we need to climb that bluff, when we already have a viable route?

I found it hard to support the protesting West Vancouverites.

Yes it is a shame that an ecosystem will be lost, but it is not the first one, nor will it be the last. The residents of West Vancouver homes are sitting on what was formerly part of an ecosystem!

The only green in the 2010 olympics is that of money-pure and simple.

The Sea to Sky improvements serve the "dollar sign in their eyes": realtors, developers, investors, and political cronies! Did you see the Squamish ad in the paper?

It is a sad state of affairs when expenditures and environmental impact are to "shave off minutes of commuting time!

Spare me on this one- When the skytrain was foisted upon us were there well heeled folks speaking on behalf of the residents whose neighbourhoods were to be permanently disrupted by an elevated train? Not! When I and my co-workers were on a legal picket line in North and West Van doing nothing more than walking said line the BMWs etc went by with a finger out the window. I say throw them all in jail and throw the key away. How's that for a reasoned response. It's progress after all- get a life- blah blah blah.

Once Betty K. and the professional protesters showed up, the group lost huge credibility. Did you see the old guy with the beard screaming about police brutality when the police were putting handcuffs on him? What a fake. At least Dennis Perry behaved with some dignity.

A tunnel would be worse in terms of safety.

And after the new highway is built just think of all the new prime real estate that will be open for development. Building the road across the bluffs as more to do with new multi-million dollar homes than with the Olympics.

Kevin Falcon receives over $95,000 in campaign contributions from construction, real estate and car dealers in 2005. He launches massive road-building projects across the Lower Mainland that threaten sensitive ecological areas and huge amounts of farm land. Developers stand to make millions from developments in Whistler and Squamish, not to mention other areas impacted by his other road-building projects. Falcon refuses to address community audiences -- all of his media conferences take place behind closed doors with the Vancouver Board of Trade and visitng Chinese government officials (exemplars of democratic governance). And we're to believe he has safety in mind? More like a thank-you party for the province's rich.

Reply to BC Mary

“Never forget that little guy in Tienenmen Square who stood in front of a hostile line of battle tanks and stopped them. “

As I recall it, the protester was executed. So was the tank commander. And, the democratic reform movement was terminated.

What the wondrous mini-ecology systems in the area deserve is protection. Bravery and martyrdom alone will not achieve that. Speaking as a person with operational experience, I play to win. I would like to lead people to mutual success, not to their martyrdom.

The leaders of the coalition will eventually ask themselves about what they could have done differently. How could it have turned out differently? How might it turn out differently for the next one?

" A public's attention captured." I hardly think so when 50 times as many people are tuning in daily to a pair of eaglets on Vancouver Island.

Sorry, had an updated look at the web site, that's 500 times as many eaglet watchers.

jimtan, I was hoping you'd pick up on that. I'm sure something awful happened to that person, although didn't he show up in Canada recently, talking about his time in jail?

The point being, that when the cameras turned away, bad things happened. When the outside world -- or even his comrades -- could no longer support him, the State turned ugly. He suffered, yes. And so will Eagle Ridge if you give up now. This is Canada, OK?

The point is that the Eagleridge group still has press contact, and still has public support. This is where it makes all the difference to keep the protest going. And to do all the strategic things you've mentioned. Martyrdom, crap. A bit of passion will do nicely. Just spare me the "We are doomed, we can do nothing" nonsense. It ain't over until the people say it's over.

Not only does Falcon get mucho dinero from the Road Builders, the New Car Dealers' Association of B.C. is one of, if not the biggest contributor of $$$ to the provincial Liberals. Meanwhile, a perfectly good railway that could service Whistler and points beyond sits unused except for the Rocky Mountaineer's line. How anyone can defend the logic of expanding a highway to facilitate a two week event that will bring visitors to the region (probably w/out their cars) when a railroad sits unused still boggles my mind. The only hope the people of B.C. have at this point is that the obvious flaws in the Olympic planning are the exception rather than the rule, and massive cost overruns won't be the norm. Of course if you believe that, I have a tunnel I'd like to sell you!

now that we have the lefty perspective i'll let you all in on what 'the street' has to say about these protesters. they've made kevin falcon look good while making complete fools of themselves. no one else gives a rat's ass about 'the bluffs', and real people are happy to see them gone, but think it should have happened about a month ago. you're welcome.

It doesn't matter where you are at in BC nowadays. It is business as usual with the Liberal government. And the almighty dollar is what it is all about.
I agree with the use of the railway. But if you do need to build a highway for a minority group within BC that all of us are paying for, I suggest you spend bigger dollars and do something that will last. I have just recently returned from Switzerland where they think nothing of drilling long underground tunnels to save the landscape, dairy farms and tourist ecosystems. These people know where the future lies and have known for many centuries.

Eagleridge Bluff was one of the last places where I could get off the city bus and walk into an old-growth forest. Thousands of people hiked the Baden-Powell trail every year. I live in Burnaby and I'm not rich. These bluffs don't belong to the province or the contractor. Nobody benefits from this destruction except a Kiewit and Sons, a US-based billion-dollar corporation. Sure, the shortcut will shave 4 minutes off the trip to Whistler. People will be able to drive faster but the highway will not be any safer. It will be a hell of a lot more confusing around Horseshoe Bay, both for getting to the ferry and for getting to Whistler.
We can criticize the Coalition to Save Eagleridge Bluffs on their tactics and strategy, but remember most of them have never done anything like this before. They've gone through all the legal channels and the so-called "public input" process and still, this horrible highway is blasted right over their objections.
Keep in mind that the province is getting hit with a lawsuit over undervalued compensation for the expropriation of the land. That will likely go on for years and end up costing a hell of a lot more than the supposedly more-expensive tunnel.
The main problem here is one we've seen before and we'll see again: The government lies when it talks about meaningful consultation with the public over public projects. As long as that continues, people will protest and resist undemocratic and environmentally-destructive practices.

"Them", I assume, meaning the bluffs, giving the context of the entire sentence. And with them well thought out post, elliot lowers himself into a class all on his own. Do you enjoy playing the fool elliot?

I also agree that the aesthetic and ecological issues raised by the S2S expansion may well have been better addressed with a tunnel. But just as other comments have pointed out, wider highways or tunnels miss the point of the issue - we should be looking to better transportation solutions, rather than perpetuating car culture.

I feel sorry for the fact that the camera chasers (the Betty K. crew) showed up and spoiled what was a community protest. And a local, community protest is what it was.

What really riles me in the wake of the Eagleridge protest is, where were these protesters when ten kilometres of rock and canyon were irreversibly altered in the Cheakamus Canyon, not one hour north of Eagleridge? Is this not the same precious ecosystem that Eagleridge protesters were trying to preserve, which was destroyed at a greater scale?

As far as I'm concerned they can stick the 2010 Winter Olympics where the sun dosn't shine.
The extream coverups of over $180,000,000. so far, just reeks of Corporate corruption!
Who is this hi-way for, I think only a play ground for the rich!
I'll bet that Eagleridge Bluffs eventually becomes a private subdivision for the rich.

Marta, show me the stats, that tunnels are more dangerous. how many people have been killed in road tunnels in BC? How many people killed on the Putallo Bridge? How many people killed on the Sea to Sky Highway? Just where are those figures? How can Falcon make such a claim?

If you are drunk, driving 60 kph over the speed limit and crash your car and kill yourself in a tunnel, I guess the tunnel is to blame!

This nonsense about tunnels being more dangerous than open road is nothing than a complete lie, yet the major electronic and print media failed to report this. Falcon just won't release the the numbers so we have just to trust him.............bloody not!!!!!

He did the same with the RAV line, told untruth after untruth, libeled modern LRT constantly and the media did nothing!

Just a note on other transportation modes to Whistler. We could operate a TALGO (like what AMTRAK operates to Seattle daily from Vancouver from Vancouver to Whistler on a reasonbly quicj schedule. The very nature of TALGO, being a tilt train, with single axels, we could achieve at least a 30% better speeds, without much track work. Investmet would go to double track the line at crital spots to achieve higher capacities.

A 4 or 5 trip a day TALGO service would relieve much stress on the Sea to Sky, and provide a world class transit solution. Oh sorry, we don't own the railway any more and CN doesn't operate passenger services and, oh yah, the Premier's good friend who owns the Rocky Mountaineer hotel train is now operating a posh, over priced, and very slow tourist train to Whistler and no real passenger servies need to apply.

What a third world country we live in!

I feel sorry for the fact that the camera chasers (the Betty K. crew) showed up and spoiled what was a community protest. And a local, community protest is what it was.

cameroon
If I`m not mistaken "the Betty K crew" was requestedby the community protest to advise and assist them as they for the most part lacked any experience with civil disobedience.

marta

Did you see the old guy with the beard screaming about police brutality when the police were putting handcuffs on him? What a fake.

I screwed that up ..

"I feel sorry for the fact that the camera chasers (the Betty K. crew) showed up and spoiled what was a community protest. And a local, community protest is what it was."

cameroons quote above

If I`m not mistaken "the Betty K crew" was requested by the community protest to advise and assist as the community had little experience in civil disobedience.

martas quote " Did you see the old guy with the beard screaming about police brutality when the police were putting hancuffs on him? What a fake."

The old guy with the beard was Jane Jacobs son Ned. Perhaps he was trying to draw attention to or draw a comparison with events in the bigger picture.

Build the highway already.

Why are we as Canadians known "to turn the other cheek" well this is a great example as we (not me) voted this drunken piece of "My Way or" back in with a lot of Canwest, Global etc help.
Democracy is becoming a thing of the past, watch out!

oh that was so well done ubiquitous. you must be very very intelligent.

As for voting for that drunken whats-his-face: Would it surprise you to know that Campbell promised the folks of West Van, "If I'm elected, we will build a tunnel"?

Tunnels are safer according to the OECD Studies in Risk Management - Norway- Tunnel Safety study. Their report is clear that all tunnels (including 2 lane undivided tunnels built in 1900) are safer than overland roads. A 1-2 km four lane divided tunnel built to 2006 standards would be many times safer that the overland highway. Falcon did a really good job twisting this info.
I don't think the Coalition would have had much chance with the public promoting rail as an alternative, even though many of us would personally have been happy with it.
As for Betty and Ned, we were happy to have them join us. Zoe is right, they brought with them a lot of knowledge.
The nimby issue some of you are stuck on... It takes an immense commitment to do what we did - therefore the motivation must be immense too. Unfortunately, that means it has to affect you in some direct way unless you're Betty or Ned or several other heroes that came from outside our neighbourhood to pitch in and not stand outside and judge us by the media stereotypes.
Sorry for my ignorance about Cheakamus. Were you at Eagleridge, Cameroon?

Made falcon look good!?!?
Maybe to a granny-bilking(arresting), ignorant, greedy, elitist, white collar crook.
In other words a typical gordon campbell/steven harper supporter.

p.s.-at that disgusting "dinner" for jr last night harper actually bragged about the criminal element of the conservative party.
The whole crowd had a good laugh as they slurped back their martinis.

I know that your attention span could barely rival that of a rock, but let me remind you that you're the one who insinuated that "real" people (whatever that means) are glad to see the paving of an ecologically sensitive area. Intelligence indeed elliot.

Disregard elliot, capitalism and the other swine of their ilk!!!
The only thing that gives their bitter, empty lives meaning is egging you on!

Coalition of
Unilaterly
Negating
Those
Swine

Ah jester, you just made my day, but I still think that elliot is truely in a class of his own.

Tsk, Tsk, JJ, such an angry person. Feeling left out are you? Missing the rising fortune that most Britsh Columbians are benefiting from? Sad that the Squamish double-wide isn't worth $50K yet? Just cause the wealth redistribution currently underway in the Province is passing you by is no reason to so unhappy all the time......

JJ, missed the "be" in your unhappiness.

And the Bus rider's union, the transit unions, the tade uniond, and the enviro nazis support the NDP. What's you point?

The overland route is the way to go because it is cheaper. These people are all retired and professional protestors.

clasy post jester. to be expected from a whacko lefty freak. i wonder if the editor's awake.

I dunno elliot. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I feel that stating that "real people" go for environmental destruction is more profane than the "c" word. But i wouldn't expect the same opinion from a whacko righty freak.

I don't care if he's Jane Jacob's son Ned; he was playing it up for the cameras in an obvious way. The local protestors had way more credibility in my opinion,

I am a pretty happy guy actually.
I have a pretty good job aswell.
Sorry to disapoint you.
My point is that certain people who are greedy, corrupt and feel a undeserved sense of entitlement are ruining everything for everyone.
I listened to your spokesman john reynolds on the cbc today.
He's arrogant, sarcastic, self-important and all-around mean-spirited guy.
In other words a typical conservative.

Everything's money to you TC99. Which is why there's no point whatsoever in responding to you.

The protesters faced an unsurmountable challenge in this case, because there was no opportunity to galvanise broad opposition.

The more progressive type who are most likely to be opposed to this development are also most likely to be opposed to the entire idea of the Olympics. That's my position as well.

The trouble is, the fight against the Olympics was lost long ago, and fighting for a highway tunnel implies not only acceptance that the games are coming, but that we should sink even MORE money into them.

Worse than that, there's a sneaking suspicion that many proponents of the tunnel are as interested in maintaining property values as they are in minimising ecological impact. Not to mention the fact that the long term beneficiaries of the expansion are those who can actually afford to go to Whistler. The rich, and residents of West Van, don't exactly have the best relationship with progressive types.

Now, the only way I could see the protesters getting anywhere was if they had managed to make this an issue around the world. Suffice to say, they barely caused a ripple.

Kevin Falcon stated that three judges ruled in three instances in favour of the government's (expensive) engineer's reports, and against the engineer's reports that sided with the protesters. These judges do not have backgrounds in engineering, nor do they have backgrounds in biology. So I wonder how they can objectively weigh reports by opposing professions, without bringing poltics into it?

Last week I went for a walk in Prince George down by the river. While walking a large eagle flew overhead and landed in a dead tree high above me. He then call repeatedly until his mate flew in to join him in the tree. They then proceeded to put on a beautiful display of preening and displaying their feathers and it felt like they were doing this just for my enjoyment. We in the north appreciate our natural gifts every single day. I feel for those who frequented Eagleridge Bluffs and have now lost their place of quiet solitude. Campbell and Falcon could never understand this as their idea of solitude is raping and pilaging the land in the name of greed. I am so greatfull that my son and I live in the north where he can learn what a real Eagle ( bear or moose etc.) actually look like without a fence between him and the animals. Keep voting for neolibs people and you will continue to reap what you sow. Enjoy your pavement and concrete.

Thursday, April 20, 2006

Eagleridge Bluffs coalition members at their protest camp in West Vancouver on Wednesday snacked on Starbucks and brie cheese.

From the top of Eagleridge Bluffs, you can look southeast and see the million-dollar homes of West Vancouver as thick as barnacles on the nearby hills.

To the west, so close you could hit a sand wedge into their midst, are more homes. They are the beginnings of Horseshoe Bay.

This didn't help the protesters either. McMartin also pointed out that they were using cutlery in their tent. He found this elitist. I guess he eats his brie and his butter with his fingers, won't be inviting him over for hors d'oeuvres. The whole thing became a class item in the local press, rather than a serious discussion - like a few items on the Tyee, I guess.

The protesters were rich residents of West Van (mixed with a handful of professional protesters with nothing else to do). Dennis Perry belongs to the same tax bracket that you left wingers detest.

I went to the website of the Bluffs group...they had a video of some naked lay bathing in mud....what does this have to do with efficient transportation?

I have one in my house, it's called a den. And there's animals too...I have a cat.

Sure. You'd let your son near a bear without a fence? I appreciate your love of wildlife, but that's exactly the point, people in urban areas get highways, and if they want wildlife, they can move up north. Something for everybody. But right now, we need to expand this highway.

You think the Eagles wre entertaining you on purpose, and your screenname says realist?

"But right now, we need to expand this highway."

Why?

realist2, can you tell us of another international city in the world that has real wilderness only a few minutes from it's centre?

This is one of the least paved and least populated places on earth. Your comments are laughable when considered in context.

Stump,
Because we need a faster, safer, efficient expansion on the 3km stretch to this new economic gateway.

I think someone should remind Dennis Perry that someone had to blast the West Van hillside at some time to build his mansion.

why not..you know..call the whole thing off..
the olympics..the highway upgrade..just shitcan the whole thing?

wouldn't THAT be nice..I wish..I'm getting the feeling that, along with peak oil, possible geopolitical problems, and further Amerikkkan shit disturbing in the mid-east the stupid Olympdicks may be blown off anyhow.

I agree..wonder if there will be any real snow in Whistler 2010..guess they`ll be able to manufacture it..maybe do some kind of virtual reality snow job...or First Nations can drum some up..we can dress some of the ever increasing multitude of homeless people up here presently living in the bush as disney-like animal characters for the opening ceremonies..have them lurking about the woods...should be a real hit with the European aristocracy...the Germans especially get a real kick out of that kind of thing..they start ringing those cowbells and get quite excited...spend lots of money...its gonna be GRAND!

Is that why the Liberal were elected?

All the lefties were angry with the NDP for financing and instigating the sucessful application for the Olympics, so they all voted Liberal.

What do Glen Clark and Carol James think? Do they now hate the Olympics that their party won for Vancouver & Whistler?

Realisticdude...you have to realize...Glen Clark is gone dude...the Glen Clark NDP is nada...
Moe Sihota..Joy McPhail..Harcourt...gonzo dude.
Carol James said she wasn`t originally in favour of the Olympics but seeing as they are going to happen she`s behind them...Moe Sihota wrote a column in the Province urging everyone to get out the pom poms and get behind the Olympics.

I`m not an NDP nor a neo-liberal

You`re bang on here..word got out on the underground lefty wire (All lefties know one another and think exactly alike)..Glens out..go with the chick magnet Gordster..the Olympics suck..so lets put the boots to the NDP ..and we all did just that.
In the last election we were told that Carol was pretty cool so we could vote NDP again..so we did as we were told.. got on the wire.. spread the word.. and elected more NDPS.

You`ve gotta feel for the B.C. electorate..what the majority really want is a moderate..centrist,pragmatic non-ideological liberal party and swing back and forth from NDP to Socred/neolib/reform/con trying to find it...equilibrium and balance..strong economy with a social conscience and environmental responsibility. We are ready to grow up..unfortunately the people are far ahead of the political options presented to them.

Finally, it may come as a shock to idealists that their message is distorted and drowned out in the ‘real’ world. This forum is an example of rubbish crowding out the good stuff.

Fact of the matter is that the world is awash in sound bites, propaganda and spam. You require strong focus and effective methods if you want to win friends and influence people.

It’s easy to gain media attention if you stage a dramatic event. What’s not so obvious is that you need to think about the audience. Therefore, your 60 seconds of prime time must be part of a solution, rather than as a mere outlet for your anger.

The few potholes and arbutus ecosystems found on the 2.4 km overland route is insignificant in the overall grand scheme of things. Consider that significantly more land (class 1 farm land) is paved and lost in the GVRD area monthly; also consider that West Van wanted a large British Property like development in the area. I don’t give two hoots about the Olympics but it is never going to loss money like the Fast Ferries or Skeena. What this development represents is strategic failure of the planning process (nothing new for BC). The railway could be used for a roadbed as it is now insignificant (one trip/day), also a route is possible from Clinton to Ashcroft. Consider 80% of the trade from the North goes to the US Midwest or further east and Prince Rupert is available. Also a route is available from Sumas to Pemberton but it would bypass Vancouver.

Now, if I created a protest line in front of a liquor store on welfare Wednesday, decrying the waste of tax dollars, I would be roasted as some kind of bigot, and arrested in a hurry.
I feel equally as violated by these protesters on the bluff.
The shoe is on the other side of the foot, isn't it ?

Such hapless and blatant hypocrisy from the West Van chapter of NIMBY.

Greater Vancouver is growing and booming and we need a strong economy and infrastructure to support the growth and people. That's fine as long as it doesn't disturb the idyllic life of West Van citizens. I don't see them protesting anything else. They lost so much credibility when the First Nations and pro protesters joined their ranks.

If you want nature in your backyard move to Prince George. I'm tired of hearing those who want Vancouver to remain a little village. A village of left wing hillbillies with interests so narrow they could walk through the eye of a needle.

Yeah. Let's not do anything at all that's fun or economically stimulating. Let's just sit in our collectives, playing guitar and eating granola.

Nice to see you misanthropists foregathered here on a Friday evening to chew over your shared load of bile. Is it lonely up there on the top of the heap? No friends to spend the evening with?

For ladies who claim to be so pleased and happy about your lives you always come across as bitter and angry, defensive and insecure. Very strange! Perhaps you should take to drinking and gambling a bit more like maybelle/Capitalism does – then you wouldn’t take it so seriously when no one here has anything but contempt for you and your complete lack of ideas and humanity.

Actually, I am heartened by seeing the West Vanners getting pissed off with the Liberal government's ramrod approach to development. How refreshing to see some of these people put the lie to the stereotypical image of environmental protesters.

No doubt nimbyism played a big part in the decision to stage the protest in the first place, but unless you're cynical enough to see the West Vanners' efforts as a completely insincere charade, any momentum towards the preservation of wildlife habitat is good momentum. It would be nice to see these folks attend protests outside of West Van. It would be nice to see them take a stand for the environment beyond the confines of their back yards. However, I'd rather see them protesting than not. When we start telling people they shouldn't protest idiotic government action because they aren't "like us," because they live a life of privilege, then how do we develop a growing base of opposition to Liberal tyranny? Get these people on board!

Have to concur with Marta, though: I hate it when protestors volunteer to be arrested and then howl like they've had a limb removed when they're cuffed. This melodrama does nothing to advance the cause of any protest, imo.

No. All my friends are in jail for portesting some bullshit cause. Oh wait, those are your friends in the story above.

I do both, very well. And I thank God I have the freedom to do so. If you peaceniks had your way, we'd be taken over by Islamists and would lose our drinking and gambling privileges.

We aren't the ones holding placards, crying, and stomping our feet because we don't get our way.

With this logic, Canada wouldn't even exist. I would wager that the land your home is on was once home to some sort of living creature.

TC 99:

You call this "economically stimulating"?
http://www.terracestandard.com/

Your idea of fun is at someone else's expense, right? Why don't you use your own cash to gnerate your own fun, instead of acting like the socialists you abhore, and demanding some one else hand feed you?

Instead of spending bilions for the (already) rich folks to get to their condos easier, how about spending it where people are going bankrupt? Now it's up to you to tell me the difference between government spending money so you can have fun, and spending money so people can keep food on the table. It's all "socialist" thinking, isn't it? It's just that you don't live in a place like Terrace, and so you want all this public tax money spent were YOU are, and not someone else happens to live.

Tsk! Tsk! Poor TC99! Poor Elliot! Socialist wannabes........

Ah! Tax cutter, but you are among those on these threads who never do anything but complain and post things so full of rage that no one here takes what you say as anything other than self serving nonsense. Clearly, you practice that time-honoured tradition that a lie repeated often enough eventually has the force of truth.

There does seem to be a disproportional number of righties represented on this site on a friday evening. I guess it must be lonely when your hatered for anything social results in no one wanting to share time with you. When will they learn that money is a poor substitute for human companionship? Til then they will continue to live in a world of "I'm the only one who matters in this world" Cheer up guys it's not too late to grow a heart and reenter the world of the human being!!!

realist2
Too true. However, on the basis of most of their postings, it is not just in the heart department these carpers are deficient. They need to grow a brain as well.

kootowl..how do you know they don`t? Maybe some do..

I support the Eagleridge preservationists.

I support anyone, anywhere who stands up to the machine

and what the hell is a "professional protester" ?

oh ya baby, can't wait to drive the new highway, right past "Camp Chardonnay", on the way to good day's skiing or golf at Whistler.

Maybe these NIMBY's thought they were like Jinny Sims & the BCTF . . . you know above the law, don't need to follow court orders . . .

jammer
not sure BC wants to have you Alberta boys driving our highways without paying tolls. We're gonna be paying for this mess for a generation at least. So next time you come to the Coast make sure you bring that fat wallet with you.

Couldn`t we..when Baron Rogge and Count Drako show up with their sleds and stuff..just say..we forgot..or someones dog ate the plans or something..maybe send them all on to Calgary..and just carry on..collectively strumming on the old banjos and munching the old crunchy G and huggin` the trees.

only one problem logjam; jinny sims would fly to whistler. teachers give her and her stunned executive about $50 million/year to piss away.

bob the cat - I think it's too late for that now. Best we can hope for is a change in the tax system so that the turkeys who want to turn Vancouver into a world class city actually have to pay for it and stop leeching off those who do actual creative productive work in this society.

Ordinary folks should absolutely refuse to serve as unpaid 'volunteers' during the Olympics to force the phonies who were at John Reynolds' bun toss with pee wee the other night to step up to provide the escort services for the shindig itself. Workers ought to take every penny they can from the white slavers running this province these days and salt it away where the Campbells and the Harpers can't find it. No sensible Canadian who cares for the future of this country should spend a single dime on Olympics tickets or the mountain of plastic kitsch that'll soon be on sale in every corner store in this province. Use the example to teach your kids exactly what contempt this bunch of fascists feels about the majority of Canadians.

Let’s hit these liars and thieves in the only place the impact will make an impression - their wallets.

Speaking of that bun toss, did jesterjogger ever manage to get someone to attend and report back?

Much as I'd have liked to go, I just couldn't justify spending $4000 to reserve a whole table for myself and five friends at that shindig and I couldn't countenance the thought of having to sit for a whole evening breaking bread with that bunch unless I could determine that my table mates were actually human.

Alcibiades..this is the only report I`ve seen from jesterjogger re: neocon buntoss

Has Gord decided on a mascot for "The Games"?
You couldn`t really have an inukshuk lurching around..probably scare the kids...I`ve heard he`s kind of mulling over using the "Spirit Bear".. I think the perfect mascot..symbolizing all the crass commercialized crapola would be a little red haired "Jimmy" creature..what better icon..so representative of present B.C. values.
Getting back to buntossing I actually had dinner with John Reynolds once. He was in the next booth at the Whitespot on Lonsdale..he was wearing shiny black loafers...bright green pants ..a pink shirt and a light grey windbreaker. He was alone...having finished his meal he was sitting with a Province newspaper just kind of slackjawed..staring at his carkeys...he`d left a quarter, a dime and a nickle as a tip.

edited for potential libel -- Tyee editor

bob the cat
I did hear a little canned clip on the radio EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL - Tyee editor - Given your description of his attire that day, at the very least he ought to do some time for sartorial violence, don't you think?

As to the mascot business, I haven't heard anything about the spirit bear - many garish fiberglass effigies of which have appeared on Victoria's streets in the past few weeks and Gordo may well wish his minions in the Olympic committee to follow that lead. Is it possible for a fiberglass bear in a painted waistcoat to retain its natural dignity?

On the other hand, there is something deliciously apt about the thought of a 'lurching' being, constructed of ersatz stone blocks, crashing blindly about and frightening children, don't you think? The idea of these guys spending the hard-earned taxes of the workers of this province on their own plastic playground of tacky architecture and artificial snow certainly frightens me. Very world class!

Ah yes.....logjam.....
another socialist in rightista clothing......and livng in Alberta yet! Daring! But then again, maybe representative of all those redneck gimme gimmes........

Tsk! Tsk! Elliot! What's wrong with giving Jimmy $50 mil? You want the rest of the province to give you a few billion so you can have a little "fun" with yer bud TC99.....

A gathering of around 1,000 people at $200 per. Plus:

So that's around $450,000 for the children. Thank god those whacko leeches weren't there. The no-fun crowd want taxes to go up because they don't pay any. They're all on the pogey.

Keith Baldrey is objective, in my opinion, and when asked last week why the NDP are doing so badly he sadly admitted that the econonmy is really doing well and there are fewer unemployed workers. Such a sad situation for the NDP'ers. Oh how they long for the good old bad old days!

Health-care costs are going to rise because they'll make themselves sick with their insistance in wallowing in morosity.

Realisticman
Which leeches are you talking about?

Oh, but they were! Where do you think the crooks the PM and Reynolds were referring to in their clever little repartee were eating that night?

Keith Baldrey is objective? That is rich.

What could be more 'subjective' than saying, as he does above in the ferry thread:

You call that objective, responsible reporting?

Every time a single soldier gets blown up in Afghanistan the press goes into a paroxysm for a week or ten days but when a couple of BC citizens drown while being carried in a public conveyance whose safety is supposedly closely monitored by public agencies it's "not of huge value."

And he’s reassured by Hahn’s ‘Openness’. Dream on. No wonder you haven’t got a clue about the actual state of things in this province if you’re relying on the manufactured news mavens of Global CanWest for your information. These are the same people who publish lies on the front page of the National Post to push a particular agenda in the Middle East.

You really haven't learned anything since your last series of posts about the 'nature' of the French people have you?

Yes, I've learned that if I suggest that one group is trying to help another, then certain people like you will throw out outrageous claims calling me, and others, liars and racists. Your arrogance was personified in your continual attacks that lacked any substance through your ranting diatribe on another post last week. You seem to want this forum as a platform for 'pure' socialist rants and anyone that questions your position or enquires about your claims is hounded out the door with personal attacks. It reminds me of the old bohemian cafes where one or two egoists hold fort by denouncing any different opinions with silly idealistic chants, while attempting to impress their sycophants.

realisticman
Yep! I'd say that's a pretty good description of YOU.

Realisticman:
Your last post could have been written about yourself. I am sure everyone read what you posted 40 minutes ago and I think they will call that arrogance and personal attacks. Cut the crap - you should be ashamed.

Once again, instead of actually dealing with substance you revert to this:

and this:

Health-care costs are going to rise because they'll make themselves sick with their insistance in wallowing in morosity.

As usual, "realisticman", you haven't a leg to stand on and you're condemned, as before, by your own words.

Alcibiades:
I always wonder why these types post here. When they see people questioning a current affairs topic, they feel they must poke fun at the posters in an insulting way. They never have anything of value to add, and seem to think it makes them look like they have a brain. I does the opposite, in fact. I am sure they think they are giving balance to a lefty site, but far from it. Glad I don't live in their toxic world!

realisticman:

Gord chipped in $250,000.? Was that his own money? Would that be taxpayers money? The money is to go to Zajak Ranch? Can you tell us more about this Ranch? Do you have a link to a site or something where we can check it out?

Oops! That should be "It does the opposite..."

Ohmygawd
No kidding! I've tried to reason it out in my mind as well. I've come to the conclusion that there must be a logical explanation for this kind of behavior.

The curious thing I've noticed whenever I've tried to post to a right wing site is that I never get more than a couple of things posted and I'm banned for life. Usually they put a block on my IP and that's the end of it. Although it's relatively easy to sign on through a proxy server and get past that kind of an impediment it's just not worth it.

DO they do this - and drop the gloves the way 'realisticman' has above - because they're really feeling self conscious and insecure?

What do you think?

http://www.zajacranch.com/index.asp

Its Zajac Ranch

Alcibiades

Once again, instead of actually dealing with substance..

Oh yes. You deal with SUBSTANCE.
A couple of your recent substantive statements:

and this:

phew...Alcibiades what have you done to this poor fellow?

bob the cat:
excellent questions - nice to see Gordo is so generous with his own money - it couldn't possibly be taxpayer funds could it?

Maybe this is just the first step in a new theory of public finance. Do away with taxes entirely and have a 24 hour telethon a couple of times a year to fund all the necessary public good works! Combine it with a buntoss like the Reynolds Roast and invite all your well-heeled friends. Open up the phone banks and get the people of BC to phone in their pledges.

Who do you suppose they'll pick for entertainment?

I understand Ben Mulroney gets $400k for hosting Canadian Idol - he might be available, eh!

It's precicely because of comments like this that you render worthless your continual attacks on any contrary opinion.

Your usual response it calling writers liars or racists. Pathetic.

bob the cat
The funny thing is, if realisticman actually had been listening to either CBC tv or radio during the last couple of days, he'd have heard that little clip direct from pee wee's mouth.

I couldn't possibly make this stuff up.

There are those who so love money that they cannot love anything else.

If they see a way to make lots of money, but it means that something beautiful, precious, irreplacable, will be destroyed utterly and forever, replaced by something ugly, harmful to the world and the spirits that love the world, they just do it. The thought that maybe they shouldn't doesn't even occur to them.

'Whaddya crazy? Do you know how much money we can make?' It's the only thing that matters.

For money, they will wreck sacred things, spit in God's very eye. Condemn children to poverty and death. Abandon duties, responsibilities, honour, their very souls. Wage unjust war. Betray trust, lie cheat and steal. Bring an end to all that sustains the world. Anything.

EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL -- TYEE EDITOR (please refrain from insinuating what you do not know and have not verified).

realisticman
you really are funny.

Do I have to provide you with a definition of fascism or could you look that up in the same dictionary where you found morosity? I know you haven't got an Oxford.

Anyway, since you're into learning today I'll provide the following.

Fascist - A n. A member of a body of Italian nationalists, which was organized in 1919 to oppose Communism in Italy and controlled the country from 1922 to 1943; a member of any similar nationalist and authoritarian organization in another country; loosely any person with right-wing authoritarian political views..(OXFORD English Dictionary).

Bailey:
Certainly fits his M.O. but can`t say for sure..
Beautiful piece above.

I kind of like it..morosity...knew a guy once who did that kind of thing with words...one of his best was " angosity"..." She had the ANGOSITY to blah blah"
some others: "We`ll bring this place to a frikkin GRINDSTILL"

He was related to "Louis Rebel" (Riel)

The movie starred "East Clintwood"

morosity..definitely a keeper.

Alcibades wrote:

EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL

BC MARY: IF YOU CONTINUE TO COMPARE PUBLIC FIGURES TO CONVICTED MURDERERS, OR RISK LIBEL IN OTHER WAYS ON THIS SITE, YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO POST. THIS IS YOUR SECOND AND LAST WARNING.

Maybe he has earned that unblinking, dead-eyed gawp. This guy has been a B.C. MLA and a federal M.P. for 5 ... FIVE ... political parties: Social Credit, Progressive Conservative Party, Reform, Canadian Reform Alliance Party (C.R.A.P., remember), and Conservative Party of Canada. Look it up, surely EDITED you can't change your allegiance 5 times.

Oh. Forgot. John Reynolds is the guy chosen to explain it all to David Emerson. Silly me.

Oh, Bob, ya had me rolling on the carpet ... more, more!

BC Mary

I`ve been rolling on the carpet most of the afternoon..read ALC`s "ersatz stone blocks, crashing blindly about" a ways above.

Laughing too much..must retreat back into a state of morociousness.

Alcibiades:
In answer to your question "What do you think?"
I have always assumed, that these trolls feel threatened by the regular posters here. I think they feel that they cannot let what is discussed stand, and they must contaminate it, so that hopefully, a newcomer wouldn't be swayed by the views "contrary to government speak" posted here. They continue to meddle in an attempt to protect their own intrests. I think they like the general population to be ignorant of progressive thoughts and opinions. We are dangerous to the right wing business agenda, as they see it. Then again, there is an element that are just brainless.

Was able to find some little quotations from my files about dear John (Reynolds) this one's actually from Rafe Mair. Anybody know him? And it appeared in the Province May 26 2000:

Also found this, from the SUN, in reference to Mr Reynolds' views on same-sex marriage:

Mostly he's been bragging of late - and we've all seen enough of that for a lifetime, I'd say!

I'll try and keep it simple for you in future. It came from my mind. I didn't think it to be a big word.

Once again Alcibiades you are wrong. I didn't look the word up but I could have. My American Heritage has morose only, my Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology does say that morisity is now rare, my Websters New World does not have it. My Collins Cobuild doesn't either. My Oxford English Dictionary (not the abridged) shows it on page 669 (and that's only the M's), first usage noted in 1534 by Whitinton. "Leste..we shulde slyp in to morosyte yuell to please, vnprofytable and odyous to other men."

My New Dictionary of Thoughts (US) quotes a C. Simmons, "The morose man takes both narrow and selfish views of life and the world; he is either envious of the happiness others, or denies its existence."

Right on bro'. Couldn'a said it better meeself.

Any other big words a problem?

realisticman
Perfect description of your own dyspeptic yourself. Mine is actually the Shorter Oxford, 2 volume edition Revised to 1993. It undoubtedly leaves out a lot of archaic references that would appeal to someone like you.

Not being a member of your exalted social class I can't afford the full version. When the power comes to pooling I’ll be lining up to claim yours.

Interesting that the rest of us find this whole thing pretty funny while you're the one wallowing in morosity. (Spell check rejects it too, funny that!)

Ohmygawd:
One other explanation has occurred to me for people like the ones we've been talking about.

I think they still have a small spark of the spirit of generosity and human feeling inside them and they feel very guilty about the fact they've surrendered their lives to greed, selfishness and suspicion about their fellow men and women. They come here to vent in the hope that they can bring down the essential sunny disposition of those of us here who still believe in the shared human experience and the betterment of all mankind from collective action.

Just me.

bob the cat, just on my way out... but thanks for that wonderful, not to unmention unforgettable, word picture you painted of Your Dinner with JR ( and what Albiciades so aptly referred to as the crime of "sartorial violence" that took place there). ;-)

Two links with mention of Mr. Reynolds...I guess it's all about the company one keeps:

thehttp://www.nriinternet.com/NRI_Fraud/ASIA/Thailand/
Rakesh_Saxena/1_crooked.htm

and then this:

[url="http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:47252827/Saxena+caught"]http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:47252827/Saxena+caught[/url]
+up+in+new+controversy,+NATION.html?refid=SEO

I'll try and keep it simple for you in future. It came from my mind. I didn't think it to be a big word.

Once again Alcibiades you are wrong. I didn't look the word up but I could have. My American Heritage has morose only, my Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology does say that morisity is now rare, my Websters New World does not have it. My Collins Cobuild doesn't either. My Oxford English Dictionary (not the abridged) shows it on page 669 (and that's only the M's), first usage noted in 1534 by Whitinton. "Leste..we shulde slyp in to morosyte yuell to please, vnprofytable and odyous to other men."

My New Dictionary of Thoughts (US) quotes a C. Simmons, "The morose man takes both narrow and selfish views of life and the world; he is either envious of the happiness others, or denies its existence."

Right on bro'. Couldn'a said it better meeself.

Any other big words a problem?

oops, bob the cat, I'll try that first link again:

nriinternet.com/NRI_Fraud/ ASIA/Thailand/Rakesh_Saxena/1_crooked.htm - 30k -

realisticman

You look ridiculous enough without posting everything twice, my friend.

I don't know why this isn't working, I'll try this:

http://www.nriinternet.com/NRI_Fraud/ASIA/Thailand/Rakesh_Saxena/1_crooked.htm

lynn
now that is interesting!

Yeah, I agree Alci, that last link is worth reading even if you just like John Le Carre novels ;-)...talk about tangled webs....

Alcibiades

Well, mate, I bought mine when I was driving a cab. Any claim to mine will have to be backed up with force. I worked for mine.

It's good to have the historical references, I can see why you'd like it. They're not expensive and it's something you'll have for a lifetime. The Collins Cobuild comes in at 1700 pages and is recommended for linguists, it's also quite contemporary, as you probably know.

By the way, relying on spellcheck too much will make you beholden to the corporation that writes the software, would that be Micro something? I'm shocked and dismayed that you would allow yourself to be so utterly subservient to an omnivorous international conglomorate, particularly when it comes to such a fundamental thing as speech.

realisticman
You really are too much.

And you accuse the left of being humourless?

I never rely on spellcheck; but I do keep a word copy of everything I post and morosity lit up when I typed it.

You have to know exactly what you’ve actually written around here because people make all kinds of wild claims about what one’s said a day or two after the fact. That and the omnipresent censor lying in wait for the first hint of libel. With John Reynolds and pee wee one hardly needs to exercise as much caution of course.

Sometimes it seems as though every other penny I make ends up being invested in books. I would love to have an unabridged copy of the OED though. Last time I checked I think they wanted $2400 for the new one. You can get one packaged with a magnifying glass for a lot less but somehow I thought the Shorter was a better choice and I think I paid $200 for it.

I guess a lot of people buy the CD-ROM version these days.

lynn
thanks for that..such slippery devils..
yeeeecchhh

Re: the OED

Mine comes with the glass. It was an offer from a book club membership years ago. They sold many. Most of my counter-culture friends bought a set.

abebooks.com from Victoria have a set on at $44.95 US

Wealthy people whose single family homes often exceed 10,000 square feet...........then they argue about protection of the environment? What a joke. How can the debate even go further than this???

What ever happened to the option of buiding an efficient affordable passenger rail service up to Whistler, instead of relying on more outmoded transportation models like highways?

Crass........with passenger rail one risks being seated next to someone like Betty Krazuk (SP?)

realisticman
thanks for that. I think I'll hold out for full size. But for the moment the 'shorter version' does the trick for me.

Lynn, those are terrific links ... gasp! So a fugitive financier named Rakesh Saxena was working on reducing John Reynolds' $483,813 debt, eh?

... and they say that "morisity" is now rare. I think not. But Tyee is becoming almost as good as "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves."

Bailey said: "Life, magnificent enough to have attained a sacredness, wiped out for a pathetic little cheque".

Thank you for story this Bailey... Such a wonderful, and compassionate attempt to attain perspective on the heart of this issue.

Captitalism seems to be, for the sake of the "big" you give up the "small", but having compassion for the Earth is to care and put value on both "big" and "small"...

Peace Bailey...

RTB

Sorry...long day... I meant "Thank you for this story Bailey..."

P.

RTB

Too funny, BC Mary...but even though I don't want to bring this place "to a frikkin, grindstill" I have to honestly confess....I wasn't sure what you were alluding to with "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"...so with the help of Mr. MacGoogled...I educafied myself and found out it is a very entertaining book on punctuation...it's title based on the following joke about bad (pun)ctuation:

"A panda walks into a café. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.

"Why?" asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"Well, I'm a panda," he says at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. "Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."

Thanks again, BC Mary...that was a hoot. :-)

uhhhh... I did not mean to put that comma in after the word "frikkin"...talk about punctuation paranoia ;-)

Ah TC99, you talk the free-market talk, but you seem to have trouble walking the walk. Whistler is already the #1 ski resort in the world. If they can't make money at number one (incidentally, I think they're doing just fine), why should all the people of B.C. have to subsidize their business to keep them there? That road benefits a very few, while so many have to pay. Are you sure you're not a socialist?

Well its nice to finally see an article on this, albiet after the fact.

Sadly whats been lost in all of the hoopla is the little piece of heaven that will soon have a highway running through it.

I went up to the bluffs a few times and walked the paths and trails. All the media chatter concentrating on the protest failed to focus on the ecosystem.
A few minutes of video of the unique wildlife, serene wetlands, outcroppings of artbutus trees, and all the glory that nature provides probably would have done better service to bringing the attention level back to earth.

I saw trees in those wetlands that had thousands upon thousands of what I suspect are sapsucker or woodpecker holes. Lined up like a 75 meter tall cribbage board, the trunks were peppered with neatly laid out rows and columns reaching far up into the tops.

I spent a night camping out in support, I saw a mouse. :)

Cars suck, and the roads they pollute on.

Nice how civil the west van police were, made me think back to the vancouver police response at the woodwards squat.

Realisticman...I have concluded that Alciabades is about ten years old. He posted a comment in another thread last week which was entirely copied from the New Republic's website. He's just a google-happy kid who hasn't paid taxes in the real world.

Now why should money be spent on "fun" events...Well, because people in our society are willing to shell out big money for fun events. That's why pro sports, movies, tv are huge business. The olympics will bring big named NHL stars who will sell tickets and jerseys, and there is a huge market for merchandise, licensing revenues, new arenas and infrastructure. I was in Sydney for 2000, and I remember the days leading up, I went to a rodeo beside the stadium, and crews were working round the clock: ie JOBS! My uncle, who is a bricklayer, was chargin so much per prick, due to the demand, he was raking in the cash! Made me wanna become a bricklayer.

They can make money, but now they can make MORE money. More is always better when it comes to money. You don't have to get an MBA to know that. The booming industry up there helps create jobs, move more people to that area, keep seasonal staff employed year round, keep real estate development moving, etc. Next time you drive up to Whistler, make a left when you get to Function Junction. You will see new hardware, pait, supply stores. All these new businesses. All there for the olympics. ANd more are going up everyday.

Tax Cutter 99:
So now your uncle is a weathy gay guy, and you are a wannabe? I'm happy for you, it seems you love everything...and if you grow up like your uncle, you'll love everybody too. Just be VERY careful selling your "you know" for big bucks - it's a risky business when there is that much demand.

Some people, our children and grandchildren, will pay a heavy price for all this "money making", because it all comes out of the environment, which is a self balancing system and has destroyed all life forms and every past society that has overstepped permissible limits.

Now "tax cutter" have you ever considered cutting the other taxes, the obscene profits of some corporations, taken from the public by overcharging for goods and services.

Why is is that you ideologically warped people only talk and complain about taxation by government, where we the public, can at least demand and expect accountability and some returns, but never complain about the taxation by corporations, which can become out of control, outright theft?

Why is it that stealing a candy bar in a store is considered a theft, but stealing the store and the properties and lives of large numbers of people is "good economics"?

Ed Deak. Big Lake.

"Good economics", Ed, is when you can make lots of "money" with little effort, and it doesn't matter if it won't last.....because certain people here think the past is the same as the present is the same as the future...........it's called blinders.

And TC99 goes on about prosperity in an all ready prosperous area. What he doesn't go aboout is the closing down of the interior to support Whistler et al.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2006/05/26/farm-income.html

Farm revenues hit 10-year low

RickW said: "because certain people here think the past is the same as the present is the same as the future...........it's called blinders".

I hope I understand what you are saying here RickW. There are some things "R" that are nonchanging over the years such as human's reliance on a healthy enviroment. Our need for respect for the earth and our need for a sense of responsibility towards the future generations who inhabit her, too, is nonchanging in it's importance.

When we ripe apart a whole and complete eco-system to "save" 10 minutes of driving time, would you not perhaps consider this at least slightly wasteful and clearly disrespectful RickW...???

imo, it's pathetic... Money is not a good enough reason to for this initiative...

Peace dude...

RTB

"rip" not "ripe"...sorry.

RTB

TC 99
Strange, I've concluded exactly the same thing about you:

Pretty typical TC. When you can't sustain a rational argument you attack your interlocutor. I’m very proud to be able to pay taxes and play my part creating a better country while you’re trying to tear it down for your own selfish reasons.

You've certainly picked up all the sleazy tricks of the neo conmen you take your fallacious wisdom from. I read the New Republic, have for years, along with Foreign Affairs, The Atlantic and the New Yorker just to name a few. Occasionally I subscribe to the Economist for a few months until some nonsense they publish makes me so mad I cancel my subscription. Happens about once every year or two. Too bad you don’t.

"More is always better when it comes to money."

I think that this is the single most telling line I have read by the neocons. It sums up their ideology completely. How increadibly sad. Monsters are always created never born and this means that these people have been created. What a perfect example of just how sick our society has become. I cry for their parents as they never learned the skills to raise complete human beings. How sad.

realist2 said: "I cry for their parents as they never learned the skills to raise complete human beings. How sad".

Here, here realist2... Thank you for this. It is sad indeed.

P.

RTB

First of all, Bailey, who seems effortlessly to come forth with such beautiful thoughts in beautiful sentences ... thank you. Again and again, thanks. Can't see why any commentor wastes time arguing with trolls when Bailey supplies sylvan glades of philosophy to roam.

Second of all ... I seem to have mentioned the unmentionable on this thread, for which I got deleted on another thread. Like any child, I need consistency in behavioural modification. Now I'm getting huffy.

Third, but I do feel just a teeny bit sorry for John Reynolds who complains that his members aren't listening. He's got two? One for ... ? [Delete horrid thought.]

Lynn: Eats, Shoots and Leaves is howlingly funny all the way through, while seriously concerned with clear writing. Good investment. I've had to buy 4 copies, a surefire gift for any friend who loves clear, concise language.

Watching these arrests at Eagle Bluffs brought back memories of my being arrested with some other folks, back during the days of the Vietnam War, for blocking the naval base entrance, during a visit of US warships to Esquimalt, BC. So I have some idea of what was going on there in advance of those arrests and afterwards, in the minds and debates amongst the participants. It is a kind of test, especially I am sure within a well-heeled community such as we were looking at here.

I loved the experience myself, though I was worried about how my family would survive if I got arrested.

I doff my hat in respect to these folks. Such experiences can be a growing time.

For example, it will be interesting to know how many of these folks today still view the Campbellite Neoconazis as "their" government. It truly must have been a shock to many of them.

Jimtan said the fellow at Tienenmen Square square was executed. Yet a couple of weeks ago a TV station was over looking for the fellow. The figured they would find him.Somebody is wrong.
Like they found the youg girl in Vietnam who was seen world wide running down the road in absolute terror with her clothes on fire dropped on her by the good old peace loving US of A. The press likes such pictures. The South Vietnam officer who killed a guy right in the middle of the street because he felt like it made big headlines and continues to show up, as best pictures.
Hardly the same classs as the old guy hollering his head off as some cop was obeying a court order.If you get an injuction against you followed by a order to move, you move or expect to o to jail. many moved.

But as one person mentioned, when the professional protesters show up you arn't about to win. I like the idea of a tunnel too, but when the folks in West Vancouver were so uppity the local gas stations couldn't post signs showing the cost of gas, one starts to wonder just who's ox is being gored. They vote liberal/socred/ conservative and will no doubt keep doing so. Let the games and the overruns in costs begin!!

'For example, it will be interesting to know how many of these folks today still view the Campbellite Neoconazis as "their" government. It truly must have been a shock to many of them.'
typical shite here. no wonder no one listens to the left anymore.

Elliot
if it's all shite man, why do you always come here and read it all?

Guilty conscience?

They come here to read and howl because the fact of this Tyee here, and the opportunity for real debate it permits just frightens them to death.

That old saying about how a man will always hold those opinions necessary to maintain him in his position also applies, even moreso, to wannabes.

If the mainstream view of economics were to change, if it were to become necessary to protect the "real capital", or even pay the real costs of free enterprise, they'd be screwed.

The reason their arguments seem so thin and flat is because they're just wrong. And they know it.

They call their opponents names because they have no way to convince them that wrong things are right, and yet it's so important to them that they be allowed to continue, to gather up more and more and more money.

People like Mr Deak, Coyote, BC Mary, lynn, and others who are thoughtful, reasoned, informed and yet vehemently disagree with their basic premises are the most dangerous thing in the world to them, short of the direct intervention of Mother Nature herself.

'...no wonder no one listens to the left anymore." Wee Wonky Elliot.

Like Aciabiades says Elliot, except for you, eh? We always know that we have an audience of at least one. 8-D Well, and that Capitalism/nabelle arsehole too-, who counts for even less than yourself.

Bailey:
Beautifully put, as always. Also,I concur with BC Mary about your posts, and have always admired your eloquence.

Amen, Bailey, and Coyote and all the rest.

That'll be my 'prayer' for the day!

Speaking of showdowns, the mysterious Bilderberg Group is holding its annual general meeting this year in Canada.

They'll have their secret sessions at the Book Street Resort near Ottawa from June 8 to 11.

These are the ones who run the world, they say. Whaddaya think?

Bailey,

...don't.....stop.....don't....stop...
don't...stop..don't..stop..don't stop don't stop man... Again, beutifully put, and I like what you say...

Peace to you and my lefty friends.

RTB

Don’t know Mary, seems to me if they're supposedly running the world they're doing a pretty bad job of it.

There's been a lot less heard from them since the American/British project in the middle east started going sideways don't you think? That and the fact the EU Constitution got turned down.

Smart people like to think they'd do a better job of managing things if governments would just listen and it feeds their ego to give that impression as often as they can. The reverses of the American right wing and their project for the New American Century are just one more example of this.

I hope they drop lots of cash here in Canada and Stephen Harper gets a chance to make a fool of himself in some very public way while they're here though.

You having mentioned it should bring Nana out of hiding. I’ll bet she’d have the book on them!

I think I should provide a little update.

I've been out and about trying to answer my question above, and I'm pretty much convinced that the John Reynolds who's the subject of this piece, the member of parliament, couldn't have been the same man who was involved in that subdivision development at Whistler I told you about.

It was just the similarity of the situations that made me wonder.

B.C. Mary,

Canadas main Bilderberger man : Big Connie Black
Another prominent Canadian member: David Frum

all you need to know of the group here:

http://www.bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm

Bailey
I don't believe 'this' John Reynolds is a lawyer. In fact he's a Howe Street promoter and most of his no-political 'work' has been in that area. He's working for Lang-Mitchener now as a lobbyist although I'm sure they call him a consultant.

Of which, lobbyists and consultants, there is an extremely interesting and quite long article in today's Washington Post about how William Cohen has managed the transition to private life and won his own battle with penury.

You can find it here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700919.html

ooopps again..."beautifully" is what I meant. I appologize for my poor spelling today...
P.

RTB

btc
Speaking of his Blackness, I think I read in the Observer this morning that he's being investigated in Britain now for the possibility that he may have 'paid' for his peerage in some way other than pure toadying and sycophancy.

I would imagine Lord Black will be sleeping a little less soundly in his home on the bridle path these days since the Lay/Skillings verdict.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329491291-107980,00.html

This link (above)should get you to it.

Connie Connie Connie..how the mighty have fallen.

Is Babs Amiel back writing in McLeans?

I see Andrew Coyne is still appearing on C.B.C. panels as a political expert for the National Post...after that front page Iran/I.D. Badge story
he doesn`t seem quite so self assured these days..theres a "deer in the headlights" kind of look with Andrew as he`s introduced.

BC MARY- Better put your tinfoil hat on! I find it funny that Bilderberg scares all of you, yet Hamas is seen as cute and cuddly by lefties everywhere.

Actually the most dangerous thing in the world is Islamic Terrorism, followed closely by Communism, then the NDP getting in power, then Iran firing nukes, then Nasdaq and the NSE crashing effing me over, then being poor, then I would say giving child molesters light sentences, and then China, North Korea and these weird kids with purple hair and piercings on my block.

Alciabades:

I didn't say you shouldn't read it, I ust pointed out how your post was taken word for word from a blog on their site. You don't have an original thought in your head. Socialists love to take money from one citiizen and give it to another, apparently thoughts are now getting the same treatment. Oh and I have one subscription...its to Money magazine. Its not that great...really simplistic stuff and the focus is on personal finance, like how to retire, as opposed to how to get rich. We get the Economist and BC Business at the office too.

Coyote:

That might be the worst analogy I have ever heard. These poeple were trespassing to stop the development of land. Dennis Perry ran for the Green Party and the people of West Van told him what they thought of his plans by handing his ass to him. Your suggestion that 75 year old rich NIMBYS and people who protest all the time are equal to students who wanted to stop people their age from being drafted is an insult to your generation. These people are retired, and will not commute ANYWHERE. That's why they don't care about roads. They'll be dead when the Olympics get here anyway. Imagine if we had that attitude toward Global Warming? Look at the photos, 90% of the people are grey haired. It is easy to not care about the future when you are closer in age to the trees you are saving than the citizens 2010 will benefit.

Spent some time in Whistler and Drove the highway today. I kept thinking to myself that I did not really need my car for this trip, and would have been satisfied to take a train. I think the Eagle Bluffs protestor would have been better off attacking the whole highway exapansion project, rather than just focussing on the bluffs. The bluffs only represent a small fraction of the ecology that is going to be at risk because of the new "freeway".

All the new subdivisions of Whistler and Squamish will destroy many more "Eagle Ridge" bluffs.

Oh, and I did enjoy my stay at Whistler. I never turn down an invite to go.

Ain't living in the "developed" world great?!

TC99
Neo conmen like to steal money for themselves from people who actually work for a living and pretend they've earned it.

Money magazine would be about your speed. I guess you get to read the office copies of BC Business and the Economist when you take them from the mailroom to the executive offices, eh?

Does they have any adverts. for friends? Cause you clearly aren't making much of an impression with your "intellect" here.

Post whatever you like, I think I'll take G West's lead and ignore your misanthropic posts. You haven't a single original thought in your 99 year old head anyway.

should be 'Do they have any adverts. for friends?'
Didn't mean to confuse you TC.

TC99 thinks it's a hoot to steal some kid's pizza, then give him back the crust, saying, there...now we're fair and square. Oh, he wrote out a chit too, that "allowed" him to steal said pizza (playing by his own rules and not the kid's). Then he runs to hide under the skirts of his own law enforcers when the kid dedcides he wants his pizza back, 'cause he can't eat a chit.

Good point RickW

I was actually thinking that Alcibiades got it wrong anyway. I expect TC gets to read the magazines at the office when he cadges them from the garbage after the real execs have chucked them in the dustbin.

He's actually more captivated by Maxim. Most misogynists are.

Interesting list from the elderly taxcutter:

As remarkable for it's omissions as for it's inclusions. I suppose he thinks he's joking.

LOL Bailey, LOL

Also, Bailey, there's some interesting stuff about one of John Reynold's associates posted on the Time to Brag thread - just in case you missed it.

Although on further reflection, perhaps fears are really the center of all this. Perhaps we should help Taxcutter 99 with his list.

Sort of demonstrate to him how many other things to fear he's just missing.

For myself, I think I most fear my conclusion that the world only supports life at all because it supports life at all.

Life on Earth seems to be in great trouble. A great death of species is upon us, and it seems to be mostly our fault. Each one that vanishes shows us one more place that this world cannot support life.

I have children whom I love more than I love myself, and they will be wanting children too.

I fear a tipping point may exist which, once passed, will collapse so completely that their hopes and mine will never come to be.

Why not share your fears with the Taxcutter. Enhance his list. Help him sleep at night

I share your concerns Bailey; as for the cutter, I think he's mostly afraid of being poor.

For someone as poor in spirit as he seems to be toward his fellow human beings I guess that's understandable; without the jingle in his pockets he'd be completely alone in the world. That would be very frightening.

This is the same fellow who said he wouldn't go to the beach because of the 'Vancouver people' he'd run into there.

No matter how bad things get, guys like you and I have a family and a network of loving relationships that make the 'stuff' one gets with money seem pretty inconsequential.

Let's just hope we haven't reached the tipping point.

Thankfully we have a pragmatic government and a great transportation minister.

This project is necessary. It will cut a half hour off the trip. Whistler is a tourist town and a great attraction of our region.

Driving up and down is congested, and this will increase to flow of traffic - for two reasons - firstly, there are more lanes. Also, it will be a straighter highway.

You lefties oppose everything. You guys wouldn't and couldn't accomplish anything.

Taxcutter, there will be nothing to fear or embrass if our earth does allow us to exist on her anymore... Everything that exists on earth, serves the earth, except us.

"TC" do you really think there is any bigger or more important issue in our lives than to live a life of servitude towards our earth...??

Peace dude,

RTB

"not" placed after "earth does..." on first line.

Sorry...RTB

Maybe some Chinese government officials take their cues from BC government officials.

Look at the clearing of the protestors for constuction of the highway between Macau and Guangzhou in Guangdong Province (near Hong Kong). This was at Zhongshan City.
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060116_1.htm

The Mayor of Victoria, David Lowe, is a member of a Zhongshan City organization, Hok Sin Tong. And there are thousands of other people in BC from Zhongshan City. They also take their cues from Canada. If BC forcibly clears the way of protestors then why shouldn't Chinese officials do the same?

The Zhongshan Overseas Chinese Affairs Bureau (located at 3 Minquan Lu, Zhongshan City 8312713 8318652

) sometimes sends a lobbyist out to Victoria to lobby for investment BC investment into Zhongshan City.

You can verify this by checking Hansard at
http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard/38th1st/H51006p.htm

So maybe this unregistered Chinese lobbyist is giving pointers to Ida Chong and Gordon Campbell on how to clear protestors. Or maybe it is the over way around?

That comment didn't read so well. Oh well, here is MLA Richard Lee introducing his friends from Zhongshan City. You cannot even identify who they are since Hansard does not support Chinese characters. Don't you think in the most Asian jurisdiction of North America, we should pay attention to such things.

How can I identify Jock Zhao? Even if it is supposed to be Jack, you are not going to find him listing his name in the Zhonshan City government directory as Jack.

I would say no, the House should not make them welcome; a score of protestors died for the sake of Zhongshan city officials expanding a highway.

Ya, ya, ya. You slimey Richard Lee. Use made up English first names for these people so they cannot be identified. Lee is taking a piss and it's in the Leg.

I hope some NDP MLA's demand that anyone who is introduced in the Leg use their real names and not fake English ones. There are many ways to transcribe an English name into Chinese. So giving an English first name for a Chinese name is just meant to obscure the person's identity.

Shame on MLA Richard Lee for such bs equivocation.

Asher
Don't disagree with your sentiments. We in this country are involved in a lot of questionable stuff in other countries too though. There's some interesting posts in the 'Time to Brag' thread on that subject too.

Haha Capitalism, you're funny. An idiot, but a funny one. If you and the rest of your paid-to-troll foolish friends were half the financial geniuses you claim to be you'd be so busy managing your millions you'd have no time for us "lefties" and the Tyee.

Make sure to eat plenty of dairy OK? When it comes time to eat the rich (if you are, which I have trouble believing) I like my long pig well-marbled.

Taxcutter should not fear that the NDP are ever going to takeover anything. The right has shifted to the center and squeezed them out.
As long as conservative Canadians hug the center right, the liberals must be driven either to the left, or to the right. They will take a left turn, thus leaving the NDP with only the extreme left winger, as we see many on this site. But they are getting rarer every day.
The left wing way, doesn't help people, it only destines them to a life of poverty.
People are figuring this out and shifting to conservative values, that ensure prosperity for all.
NDP = TOAST, in BC the Lib's are way more popular, and Gordon Campbell's approval rating is equal to Carol James.
The left has lost the battle. They will never admit this however, but I think it's apparent to everyone that this is the case.

Last call come early tonight IAMC?

G West
Is it your job to make at least some kind of stupid response to every post I make. How much does this job pay ? The training wage ?
I suspect your are the single, only, elusive person in this Province, actually in this program. Or do you know of others ?
It must be lonely in your world. Oh, I forgot about Hannibal. It must be terrible to be margined out.

IAMC:

As soon as word gets out that there's more voters likely to gain and prosper from "leftist" policies than neo-conservative ones you'll be running even more scared. Why else would you and your ilk pollute the Tyee with your nonsensical natterings. We get it. You think you can pollute the message by constantly throwing sh*t in the well. Good luck with that. The people aren't that stupid and the more voices like the Tyee that come on-line the less your lies are going to sound like truth. Be afraid. We'll serve you up right along with Capitalist and Taxnutter 99 (his IQ by all accounts), maybe with a juicy, locally grown organic apple in your mouth.

IAMC
Start saying something that isn't stupid and see what happens.

What's taking so long for the word to get out, Stump? How much time do you need ?
Your MEssAgE ia polluted. BS is toxic and only adds to methanol. But we all need ethanol, we all need Laura Bush too.
I don't see any hope that the left (out) can convince voters to go their way, but don't worry, the Armed Forces aren't coming for you.

IAMC: you are a friggin twit.

i figger whistler can take a flying frick. it is a giant sore one the landscape of bc... yuppie-ass trash... i piss on all of it.. as for the olympics , how many people are gonna benefit from it?.... really? people who don't appreciate ecology over economy are a plague... piss on all of them

my interior bc hick rant is now concluded.

Look, we need to protect the environment and we need to develop land for housing, business, hospitals, highways, etc. How this 3 km stretch will set us up for Armageddon if a highway is paved through just does not occure to me. In fact, there will be arborists on site to protect trees and there will be ecological "highways" built underground to protect the species that are at risk. That sounds like responsible development to me.

Stump and G West...There are no execs here...just me and associates. Either way, the demonizing of people in the private sector by you guys is absolutely disgusting. The fact that you guys describe all business people as disgusting, greedy and anti-social proves to me that you need to get out more. Business people set out to make their lives better by providing products and services that people want.

IAMC, one only needs to look at EVERY election reult ever, in this country, to realize that you are right in your assessment of the situation. Stump, your assessment sounds like wishful thinking, not based on any evidence but merely the hope that more people will think like you.

Tax Cutter 99 said: "How this 3 km stretch will set us up for Armageddon if a highway is paved through just does not occure to me. In fact, there will be arborists on site to protect trees and there will be ecological "highways" built underground to protect the species that are at risk. That sounds like responsible development to me".

It is not "responsible" developement to the fragile, struggling creatures that live in the Bluffs TC. It IS "Armageddon" to them.

Why TC do we, the GASG (give-a-shit-group)HAVE to protect the environment and fragile species from attitudes like yours? Why don't you "check" yourself, and say,...HEY, WHAT I DO TO THIS AREA, I DO TO MYSELF...?? Why not dude....?? In other words, when you destroy a little area, you are also destroying a little area of yourself. TC, WE ARE THE ENVIRONMENT. THERE IS NO SEPARATION. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION...

Anyways, it is a lot to do with "attitude". I doubt that shaving off 10 minutes of driving on this road is THE BEST we can do as an unproven species on this earth...This is "gluttony" at its finest.

If we let this initiative continue without even a comment, WE (this includes you dude) are not doing our job and there will be even more abuses of the same in the future...imho.

What is so hard to understand about this TC??

Peace man...

RTB

TC99
I guess you've forgotten the kind of criticism you spout toward your "enemies" TC. I'll refresh your memory, lots of human feeling and empathy here:

Shows real affection for your fellow Vancouverites and clients, eh!

Want some more? Here's evidence of someone who really loves his fellow humans and thinks a lot of them -

Funny, I read some other stuff you wrote just a couple of days ago about how important money and spending was to you, TC - a little internal contradiction perhaps?

Your misogynist attitude:

You've left lots more mud out there. I haven't bothered to point out the things you said about aalborg and her daughter out of respect for them.

For you to write about what posters on this site have to say about what they see generally as the greed and unfairness of the elites who run this country and stick it to the broad majority of working people who actually do something productive with their time while you're posting vituperation and hate about people like single mothers is the funniest, while still being horribly pathetic, thing I'll read today.

I can understand why G West feels the way he does about your poison. Anyone in the mood for more of TC’s wisdom can find it on the Mother’s Helper thread in Life – here –
http://thetyee.ca/Life/2006/05/12/MothersHelpers/

' the demonizing of people in the private sector by you guys is absolutely disgusting. The fact that you guys describe all business people as disgusting, greedy and anti-social proves to me that you need to get out more.'
beauty! shades of glennocchio clark, maureen maloney, and their 'class war'. the ultimate irony of course is that he didn't believe a word of it and is now a glorified salesman in a cheap suit. isn't the left wonderful?

Elliot
Glad you agree that TC99 is the past master of the ad hominem remark and the application of fish to important issues.

What about those Oilers?

G West
I`m concerned with this obsession Elliot has with Glen Clark. Do you think its healthy?
He would appear to have been quite severely traumatized and I`m beginning to wonder if Elliot should perhaps seek medical attention or counselling of some kind. What do you think?
I am concerned for the lad.

who needs the comedy channel when we've got you guys?

G West

I find Elliot on his own is fine.. actually quite profound at times..he brings alot to the table..its when he comes under the sway of the " heavyweights" such as the faddish Taxcut man, the doctrinaire IMAC and Capitalism that the spectre of cultism rears its ugly head.
One only has to view the twisted relationship of say..a Mr. Leahey and Randy to appreciate the possible outcomes of this sinister influence.

bob the cat
Agree completely, Elliot is actually a decent sort. He has the wind up about Glen Clark, Kit Kreigar(sp?), Jinny Sims and the bctf but otherwise a fine fellow and quite funny at times. Bit of a sports nut!

He has none of the obvious pathological traits of the cutter and he has enough sense not to continually post nonsense - which is
I AM Clueless's speciality.

Have a good day.

should i be blushing? no problem with kit krieger though g. chudnovsky was the turning point. animal farm revisited, which was apparent last october. glennie was a pox on this province. typical notre dame'er. the oilers are a testament to committment, diligence and teamwork. wonderful to see in this day of overpaid crybaby primadonnas. i also like the other two teams. hard to get any free time with hockey and basketball playoffs, baseball, and soon the world cup.

Elliot
Will the Suns win another game? Dallas has depth.

yes ..the oilers ..big team little me. (Plus Pronger)
Can the jays stay close until they work out their starting pitching problems?

dallas in six. in the finals as well. the jays may not win the division but who doesn't love teams that crush the ball the way they do?

I think that the BC lib dictators will be a thing of the past when we finally get to hear the Bassi thing, Organized Crime is a cancer even in our RCMP ranks as one RCMP tried to inpead justice.
And the Banks are http://www.themoneymasters.com/

http://www.bilderberg.org/goodlink.htm#great

bassi/virk....yawn...

I don't understand how leftists can enjoy sports. There are winners and losers, an unequal distribution of points (which is how a game is settled), some players make more money than others, the revenues go to billionaire owners, the ticket prices are too high for the working class, and there's violence. I'm surprised you guys aren't complaining that Chris Pronger should distribute his 6 mil a year equally to every other Oiler.

By the way, i'm going for Carolina...only because i'm a Canucks fan, an I can't stand to see the post-Messier Oilers or our expansion cousins win one before us.

the canucks will never win one. too much west coast living.

Sorry Jester that acronym was already taken by the

Canadian
Undead
Neutralization
Team

Now I have not been following this closely, but my understanding that the area had been zoned for residential housing by West Vancouver years ago?

Realist
I took a bunch of people from New York for a boat ride through Vancouver harbour, they could not believe the amount of eagles fling around Vancouver. We also have healthy populations of Bears, coyotes, deer, racoon, skunks, cougars and other critters within the lower mainland, they even found a wolvervine a few miles from my house. Given that Grizzlies are showing up just North of Pemberton, who knows maybe in 20 years we have them here to!

Bob the cat
Perhaps they can buy that fuzzy lion-llama cross that bombed at the world’s cup?

Bailey
Gee, what a love-in you guys are having, what would be the point of debating with people that agree with everything you say?

By the way species come and go long before we came along and shall do the same after we are gone, nature and evolution is a stagnant process.

Asher
The concept that the Chinese could learn from us in regards to protesters is laughable and unjust. Your comments shows that you have no grasp of how bad thing have been and can be in China, perhaps you should do a case study of the handling of the Williston lake dam and the three gorges dam to understand how even our worst moments pale to their daily routine.

By the way species come and go long before we came along and shall do the same after we are gone, nature and evolution is a not stagnant process.

sorry.....

Taxman

Most athletes as I`m sure you know..came from the working class..with the exception of tennis players and most golfers. True.. the working class can seldom afford tickets and the Canucks for one now reflect that. A Yuppie team for Yuppie fans.
Of course the pro sport market is ridiculous.. just as the Vancouver housing market is bloody obscene..but we of the great unwashed who grew up with Baseball ( In the very early `50`s they would play the World series ( Brooklyn vs. Yankees) over the P.A. in my elementary school.
We`d take an hour bus ride to the old forum to watch the WHL Canucks..by the third period there would be a huge blue cloud from cigarettes and cigars about half way between the ice surface and the ceiling.
I have some sepia toned photos taken by my Grandfather of the Mann Cup in the early 1900`s...we took in a lot of lacrosse..The North Shore Indians..Vancouver Burrards..and New West Salmonbellies.
My wife babysat Gary Lupul while his dad Vic played for the old Powell River Regals..they won the Coy Cup vs. V`al Dor way back ...
I boxed awhile out of Elio Ius` gym at the bottom of Lonsdale in North Van..Elio was a contender..middleweight..fought in the Garden..
A friend of mine..pipefitter at the mill..great big guy.. actually sparred with George Chuvalo and Muhammed Ali when they trained before their fight in Vancouver.
My son played AAA hockey for Ron Perrick the player agent/coach and Chris Oddleifson was his assistant coach. He set the North Van speed record for laps and he was a defenceman...he learned to skate from Laura Stamm..the Islanders power skating instructor..
He never made the bigs...not mean enough..not big enough..my nephew has a ring..Kamloops Blazers..Memorial Cup..he polices the mens leaque up here now.
Yeah sports...Go Oilers

TC99:

That's because you have no idea whatsoever what a "leftist" is or a "rightista" for that matter. When you learn this, you will understand.......

Colin said: "By the way species come and go long before we came along and shall do the same after we are gone, nature and evolution is a not stagnant process".

Right on Colin... Well put dude. So far, we as humans have done nothing to contribute positively to the earth, have we... Yeah, imho, we have a lot to learn about being "fully human" in order for our species to be "allowed" to stay.

Many plants and animals have or are, very successful, and been so for thousands of years... I wonder what defines their "success". Perhaps it is simply "purpose", or "contribution"...??

On the side, if I were to say, I think a "love-in" is a good foundation to build on...Cool.

Peace bro...

RTB

Dear Right;

Oh well. Bye bye then.

Hey Bailey,

I am a lefty with a right dominant brain...ha. If you don't mind, could you explain...??

RTB

It's just that if you're going to argue as Colin did above, that;

or, as you do;

.

then you just have no-place to go. It's like saying 'everybody dies sooner or later, so let's just all do that then.'

Nothing to say to that but good bye.

But we're actually not dead yet. I've seen attitudes change, I've seen behaviours change, so I know those things are possible. The jury's out whether we are also smart enough to move our attitudes and behaviours into those possibilities before it's too late.

There's nobody to allow us to stay or compel us to go but our own sweet selves.

I think the problem is with the patterned mathematical nature of money. It's addictive. And also deceptive, in that it makes you believe it's real. The rewards are compelling, and it has it's uses, but beyond those uses it's destructive.

Think of video lottery terminals. They're supposed to be an entertainment, but quite a few people sit down in front of one of these flashing machines and proceed to destroy themselves, their families' future, their ancestors legacies. Everything they had or hoped or dreamed of.

Because the pretty lights flashed and the beepers beeped. And sometimes it rewards you, just enough to engage your serotonin/dopamine cycle.

I think there are a lot of people dazzled by money in the same way, and for the same reasons. If these people continue to rule our societies, we are quite probably doomed, and half the species on Earth with us.

Anyway, I think we do contribute something very important; we manufacture meaning. The universe doesn't seem to contain meaning at all, except as a function of minds. We create this very important thing, and if we go it will go with us.

Our presence here seems to me to have great value, and not one bit of that value is financial.

I'm just not ready to write off the world for such a stupid reason.

Amen again Bailey. You'll soon have it covered and the rest of us can just sit here and read about it.
Thanks, it's been a long day, that was good!

.

Now that is a powerful thought..and there is also something very touching and tender in it as well...I mean, that really is so much of what it means to be human...

Bailey: "Anyway, I think we do contribute something very important; we manufacture meaning. The universe doesn't seem to contain meaning at all, except as a function of minds. We create this very important thing, and if we go it will go with us".

Bailey, first I want to start by saying I appologize for appearing "dark". I am not really. Sometimes I get a little carried away though, that is true. I DO however, believe in the goodness of the human heart. I think I fear the corruption that seems to be penetrating the deeper layers of our humanity. I believe that fundamental simplicity, community, love and our connection to the natural world is like a medicine that will help "us" keep our hearts good and strong...

"Meaning"...I like this Bailey. Why we are here, why many things. Yeah, thank you for your wonderful insight on this powerful word. A type of intelligence is indeed a unique gift we are given. All animals are given a gift of some kind, this is just ours. Yeah, we CAN define "meaning", it is up to us and then live by it as a "mantra" both personally and as a society...

Bailey, I believe in the human heart and in its great value towards the earth and her creatures... This is what we were intended to be, but we have to protect our hearts too. Keep them stong, and pure. We ARE capable of positive change but it needs to be combined with a clear honesty in order to achieve them...

Thank you for thoughts, and I appreciate and agree with what you wrote my friend...

Peace "B"

RTB

post post: I too have kids I love more than anything on earth Bailey. I encourage and believe in them to find a way to be a positive influence on the earth... With every generation brings hope...

Basic principle:

The Sea to Sky Highway is a public death trap.

An alternate route is mandatory.

There is an element of NIMBY.

Democracy means all for the greater good.

An alternate route there will be.

Basic logic. TG

Tony; You know, I don't really think that's what this is about at all, though it's easy to think so. There already are two or three routes to Whistler, and 90% of the Sea to Sky is fixable cheaper than building new.

This is a land deal, it's about money, not safety, convenience, or even the Olympics.

And this thread is about two arguable views and how each is treated. You just made one side very adequately. The other is 'how long can we continue to destroy things we can't replace, just to make more money for a few influential bigwigs?'

The world is not too fragile ordinarily, but lately there are a jeezly lot of us poking at it.

If we don't get way, way more careful with it, and pretty quick too, it could die.

One view has police, the other view gets arrested. That's the basic democratic principle we're talking about, not routes.

One view gets arrested. The other view gets elected. Now THAT's the Democratic Principle we're talking about!

When real democracy returns to this country, cutter, you and your rip-off artist friends will have to start paying your equitable share of the costs of running the country and you will have to start working for a living. Either that or become as poor in pocket as you are poor in spirit now.

I know that scares the life out of a misanthropist like you. You might actually have to deal with your fellow women and men and stop acting like a Prima Donna who thinks the world was made for his facile pleasure. That’s the democratic principle we’re talking about!

I agree with "Alcibiades". It does not take a real work ethic to make money in this day and age. It just requires a willingness to listen to "insider information" and then invest. Whooptedoo...no talent there. It also takes a willingness to destroy sacred lands (northern Alberta Oil Sands Pro.), and watch the extinction of animals occur (Alberta grizzly bear)...

"TC", what is "legal" is not necessarily what is "right"...Govern't and Big Industry have sold out on the spirit of Democracy in our country. There is so much happening that the majority is not aware of, or is not being listened to... The "mammon god" clearly has a lot to say about today, but history shows this will not be forever but just a bad phase...Democracy will be back.

P.

RTB

Bailey wrote:

Why is life in any greater trouble now than during the 5 or so “extinction events”? You can blame certain species issues on us (ie whales) In the scheme of things, human are a mere blip in existence. Life and the earth is far more resilient than people give it credit for.

I am glad that the scientists have decided that we weren’t responsible for the demise of the woolly mammoth.

I am still hoping someone can answer my question about the zoning

Colin
As Bailey has so movingly written it is not the facts of extinction itself that are so dismal - were we not here to give, as he puts it, 'meaning' there would be no tragedy of which to speak. The dispassion we use regarding other extinction events is hardly a puzzle since there was no human intellect as we know it around to create the emotional attachment and the historical affection most of us currently feel toward this place we see as our human home.

We may be a blip; certainly your sanguine attitude toward what is currently happening on this earth seems like a blip to me when I consider the evidence around me.

The only immortality anyone can be sure of, in my opinion, is the immortality we acquire from our children and the sense of continuity that arises from the fact that the stuff of our existence, after death, is subsumed and recycled by the living earth.

For that cycle to continue we have to be better stewards of this place than your cavalier attitude toward real current evidence indicates you think it's necessary to be. Fiddling while Rome burns has never seemed that intelligent, in my opinion.

The zoning, in my view, is irrelevant.

The zoning, in my view, is irrelevant.

why? If the area was zoned for housing, why have these people never fought to have it removed? If it was zoned then their inactions weakened their case.

As far as these grandiose statements. I find they are often used to allow poetic licence with the facts to generate an emotional response that may not be warranted in the case at hand.

But Colin, how one sided can you be. You're same guy who constantly wrote emotional and personal things about how nicely your little family was managing and pooh pooed the concerns of those many women and families have real substantial problems with the way things work in our society.

All issues have an emotional side. People are emotional beings. You are yourself. Why decry others when they express feelings instead of vituperation?

I think you need to look in the mirror my friend. I don't class you with the usual mindless neo conmen who stumble in here every now and then - but that was a pretty silly thing to say.

As to the zoning. I still think it's irrelevant. If the ecological values there were significant (and I have no knowledge that they weren't - this decision was made totally by force in my opinion) I have no doubt there would have been a response to a building project in the area. Perhaps some group like the WCWC would have led it.

Colin said: "In the scheme of things, human are a mere blip in existence. Life and the earth is far more resilient than people give it credit for.

I am glad that the scientists have decided that we weren’t responsible for the demise of the woolly mammoth".

A fellow I knew who use to do an enviromental impact show on behalf of the govern't and hunting groups in Canada, once said a simular thing to me. He said I ower-estimate the impact of humans, and underestimate the earths ability to heal herself. He said, in thousands of years to come, the world will go back to the way it was before man. Sadly, many people actually believe this...

I think of it as a bit of a cop-out to being good stewards of the earth. Is this a type of laziness, or a capitalistic justification in order to fulfill an agenda. Basically, he was saying, it doesn't matter what we do, our impact, in the long run will not be felt. IF I belived this, than humans would NOT actually be responsible for ANY extictions of animals, as it would have happened anyways, as it was totaly natural.

We know this to be untrue. We are responsible for many species lost and we could have saved them, but we choose not to, or, it was to late. By losing those species, our impact will remain forever, as long as the earth is here...

Collin, we need to minimize our impact on the earth in any way we can, AND be responsible for any impact we create. We need to search our hearts so we may have truth, honesty, and integrity in us at all times when it comes to the issues of the earth.

"G" said: "Fiddling while Rome burns has never seemed that intelligent, in my opinion.

The zoning, in my view, is irrelevant".

...here here G.

Peace.

RTB

ps
On the Woolly mammoth issue, yeah right, who's scientists Colin...??

G west
While I might write things that are personal and emotional in fair detail as they directly effect myself and family, what bailey is writing about is quite a different thing. It is a utterly vague statement designed to create a empathetic state in the reader without really stating anything. So the reader goes away thinking that the issue with the bluffs is about the extinction of a species when that is not the case. In fact I would subscribe that issues for most people is only minimally about the environment.

The zoning is important because if it exists, then it creates the impression that the protest had nothing to do with the environment and is all about ulterior motives. This creates harm and difficulty for legitimate environmental issues. In my job I see the terms environment and safety constantly misused in order to block someone or to gain an advantage or purely a NIMBY response.

(By the way I pooh pooed the Liberals daycare plan, not the concept of helping out families that need it)

right to bear
Go forth and google to make up your own mind on the subject, or was their demise Bushes' fault also?

"The Sea to Sky Highway is a public death trap."

Nonsense. I've driven it numerous times w/out incident. Bad drivers in a hurry get hurt and take others with them. The so-called highway improvements are about as likely to make things worse as they are likely to make things safer.

It's a make work project for roadbuilders so they get their piece of Olympic pie too.

"I don't understand how leftists can enjoy sports."

Just one of many things you don't understand buddy.

I don't understand how you seem to think the world is shifting to the 'right'. As I've asked you before, do you think Canada is more conservative or liberal in its policies compared to one hundred years ago? If you wish to genuflect before the facts, there's one that might be hard for you to accept w/out questioning some of your basic premises about the world.

"Stump, your assessment sounds like wishful thinking, not based on any evidence but merely the hope that more people will think like you."

Same question for you. Are we more liberal or conservative than we were a hundred years ago?

I agree with Stump, I having been driving the highway since the 80’s, even before all of this work it was far better than it ever was. Now in the 70’s and early 80’s it was really bad, such as the “engineer’s marvel/ suicide corner near the top end of chekimus canyon.

Colin
In my opinion that's utter sophistry. Your posts came from and were meant to influence exactly the same emotions. Why should your citing your family experience - relative to the needs of others for something that your political point of view is, in effect, denying them, be any less valid than Bailey appealing to the common human emotions that we all share, to greater or lesser extent, when we come into contact with whatever constitutes the sublime for each of us? I think your citation tended to be exclusionary while Bailey's to his credit, was doing his best to find common ground that all humanity might share.

Bailey was not just trying to appeal to an empathetic state. He was trying to make the case that we all, somehow (even you Colin) share some common interest in the preservation of this place we call home. You may think you're prepared to welcome the next extinction with alacrity but I guarantee if it came to it you'd feel lots of empathy for the situation of you and your little family if the ground started to shake as it did last week in Indonesia.

That's what I don't undertand about you. You seem to take positions not because you believe in them, but, like nightbloom in a way, almost in spite of your better nature.

I still think the zoning is irrelevant. And leftists love sports, btw - they are one more area where we can cheer for the underdog and, occasionally, end up on top.

right to bear
"Go forth and google to make up your own mind on the subject, or was their demise Bushes' fault also"?

Colin, "science" is a finicky field. There always seems to be someone to say what another person wants to hear... You know, just because "it" is scientifically justifiable, does not mean "it" is ethically supported...IMHO. Anyways Colin, even IF we were not responsible for the Mammoths extiction, we WERE responsible for the extiction of the Dodo... So tuchee dude...!!

RTB

Spell-check. Sorry: "extinction"...rtb

G west
You are entitled to your opinion and it is clear that yours and mine are different. Cheers

the mercedes owners are at it again. they've spotted a rare bird nesting in the forest. where's my slingshot?

Elliot
you're now suggesting that it's a good idea to fire missles from your slingshot at Mercedes owners?

I had no idea you were such a supporter of the rare birds of West Van.

I thought Phoenix was done for. I actually think, after last night, they have a decent shot at taking the west - as long as Bell stays healthy. You?

dallas in six. that game turned when phoenix started flopping and the idiot refs 'fell' for it. as a basketball purist i don't appreciate teams who flop and can shoot 3's. in fact imo the 3-point line has only served to change the game negatively.

boy Elliot you are & have a very negative personality .

Unlike Elliot I don`t consider myself a basketball purist..I only watch during playoffs..I had figured Phoenix was toast..I thought Dallas had them figured out. They do play the 3 point game so well. They must drive an opponent nuts. They cover the 3 and they go inside..cover inside they go back to shooting 3`s. D`Antoni is a brilliant offensive mind and he has the guard in Nash to run his blitzkrieg attack. Phoenix must shoot the lights out to have a chance still.
I don`t really get what Elliot means in reference to the Suns " flopping" Nowitzki credited the loss to turnovers and " we made mistakes all over the place" he didn`t mention any "flopping" but then maybe he isn`t a " purist"
Maybe Elliot dislikes the Suns `cause Nash showed up at the All-Star came with a " No War in Iraq" t- shirt..and in an interview when asked what he was currently reading replied " The Communist Manifesto"
He must either be a moron or possibly in denial of some sort.

nash is excellent in every way.(except the flopping) d'antoni is the best coach in the nba. nowitzki is not allowed to comment on the reffing. bc dude is a moron.

Elliot
dunno abt this 'flopping' thing; i'd sort of always associated that with Latin soccer players - not so much with b/ball.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think the Sun will continue to shine on Phoenix but it will probably take 7 games. I hope it does if for no other reason than that it will take some of the crow out of Mark Cuban - one of my boys used to play soccer against nash and his brother marty - when they were all much younger of course. Nowitzki is also excellent btw.

WHere does one get a t-shirt like that? - as you know Elliot, I already have the communist manifesto.
Cheers dudes

G West wrote:

G West, this is your arrogant left wing opinion. Anybody who disagrees with you must not be rational. Its amazing, sometime I sit with colleagues or neighbours or even family, and when I say I disagree with their Leftist or Socialist viewpoints and support right wing philosophy, they won't even accept it. They say "You can' really believe that, you're just trying to argue/piss us off/play devil's advocate/get me riled up/defend him because he's rich, etc." They can't accept that their brother, friend, neighbour, colleague, drinking buddy, etc, that they have so much in common with, and have been through so much with, could possibly disagree with their Socialist philosophy.

In Tucker Carlson's book, he writes about this phenomenon about the left. He says that while he was starting at CNN, he'd have a smoke with journalists and colleagues. They'd say "you don't really feel that way...it's just an act right?" He writes:

"You don't really believe all that do you? I've been asked that question...hundreds of times, always by Liberals. Leftists have trouble believing that anyone who disagrees with them politically could be a decent person. Once they decide they like you, they assume you must be a (leftist) too.

g; flopping is alive and well in the nba. manu ginobli, of the san antonio spurs, is the master of it and vlade divac, now retired, was nominated for an academy award a couple of times. they need to institute a foul for flopping, much like the nhl now has a penalty for diving. no one needs that crap in sports, in fact it's probably one of the reasons north americans don't engage soccer the way the rest of the world does.

Right. Because we in North America despise cheating....which is why Mark Mcguire is in the hall of fame.

Hi Elliot - i'd forgotten about manu ginobli - he does appear to have transplanted the Argentinian flare for theatrics to basketball - you are absolutely right

Truth to tell, b/ball has never been my favorite sport. I watch the Suns whenever i can - not just 'cause of nash but also because of the flair and pace they bring to the game. I don't know why we don't engage soccer more here but diving certainly does have something to do with it. THat and winter I guess. Even though soccer makes sense year round here it just never worked in the rest of the country and hockey did - must also be a factor

Still, I'm looking forward to getting up early to watch as much of these games as I can before heading off for work - I think the Oilers have a chance in the final - but, if I were a betting man I'd still be putting my $ on Carolina. Just watch what'll happen now - Buffalo will rise to the occasion and win the East!

TC
Can't you read?
I was talking to Colin. He is a human being.

You are persona non grata as far as I'm concerned.

I couldn't care less what your politics is - you are a hateful individual and I have no time for you.

Period.

'Because we in North America despise cheating' it's true tc. barry bonds passed babe ruth the other day and it was barely mentioned b/c everyone knows he's been cranking. mcguire was exposed after entering the hall of fame, and pete rose, one of the greatest ever, will never make it there b/c he was betting on baseball games while coaching. rafael palmeiro achieved his 3000th base hit last year but was caught cranking 2 weeks later and hasn't been heard from since. need more examples?

Elliot
ok I'm a moron (more/on the left & the real truth) now what, is that all the "lil" right/wing or right/dingbat has to offer? name calling.
And how did sports get into this "Bluff" blog

hope you're not waiting for answers to those 'questions' dude.

sez TC, completely ignoring how central cheating is to the way the capitalists and fraudsters are enriching themselves throughout North America. The fact that Kenny Lay and Bernie Ebbers among others have ended up in jail barely scratches the surfact of the cheating class TC worships. Even Mark Cuban, no moral force of any significant weight, has remarked recently in his blog what a farce the stock market is.

sorry cutter,
small error in the above - Lay has not yet been sentenced - I'm sure he's looking forward to that day!

Wasn't this the same fellow who supported Bush and provided his plane for the now President's use during campaigning? The same fellow W called affectionately Kenny boy?
Yeah , North Americans really despise cheating! Not! They do it all the time - what Americans despise is getting caught!

I came across this article, I actually met the author at the bluffs.
Excellent article to help people inform themselves, please get involved somehow.

http://www.eagleridgebluffs.ca/learnmore/archives/commonground_053106.htm
http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0606179/cg179_jacobs.shtml

Eagal Ridge Bluffs = 1800 high priced view lots for the rich crooks of BC et all
ThankYou Kevin Falcon I'll bet you have yours+ picked out!