I thought the funniest sign was the one that read, THE KING IS A FINK!

People are beautiful. Rock on, teachers!

CUPE was OUTSTANDING!

The organization and heart shown by the unions warmed my heart.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you!

We have a right as citizens and taxpayers to view Ron Erwin as creepy.

I know I do, how about you?

Ron, it is absolutely no surprise that you find the images of the masses asserting our democratic rights as creepy. This fear of yours is typical of people with your level of consciousness.

off to a double shift of picket duty

Hey Ron, They say ignorance is bliss. You must be the happiest man in the world.
Time for the entire Union workforce to take a hard stand and stop the right wing agenda in its tracks.

A mickey mouse protest by Public Sector Unions in a small town in Canada won't stop the dreaded right wing wave from washing itself onto the shores of Dalls Road. I am not scared.

what a racket!!! if they "own the world" why are they so busy justifying themselves?

Back to the future - $$ or not, jailed or not, the union movement is people. And they make a big contribution to our society. We'll do what we need to do.

Best sign I saw was being carried by a young student who had a very crude drawn picture of a house, and the caption "This is what happens when there's no art class." I laughed out loud. That kid has bright future in advertising if you ask me!

"I am not scared."

Sure you're not. That's why you have to keep mentioning it right?

Courage, principles, co-operation are always inspiring but never more so than in the pouring rain on 17 October with a trembling premier on TV virtually calling out the storm troopers.

Victory to the B.C. Teachers and all who support them.

Unlike Ron Erwin, I am scared. I'm terrified, actually. But you know what? I can't and won't let my fear stop me from doing what I am convinced is right.

The removal of the civil right to bargain for a collective agreement is where I draw the line. Thus far and no further.

It must be terrifying. A salary of 70,000 a year, 12 weeks of vacation, a huge pension, 10 sick days a year and job security for life. You must be terrified, your comparisons to Nazis, Apartheid and segregation are all making sense now. Being forced to work under that draconian contract of discrimination until the school year is completed must be awful. Since you can’t hold students hostage for personal gain you better call the UN as teachers are being abused in BC. (Make sure you get the UN representative from Africa) Poor hard done by teachers.

Did anyone see Wally Oppal anywhere in Victoria Monday?

I am quite disappointed he didn't show up for the protest so someone might ask him where the justice went.

It's fantastic to see the teachers have so much support, and listen to all the whining and cringing of the bullies on these boards. It just makes everything so clear. The sun is out today, a good day for pickets!

"The law is the very foundation of a democratic society," says Premier Gordon Campbell. "The courts are our highest authority. The fundamental task of any government is to stand behind the courts and stand up for the rule of law.”

"We don't obey the laws we like and disobey the laws we don't like."

Interesting sentiments from a government that has ripped up legally binding contracts with public sector workers but are any of them true? I submit that the answer is “no”. Any society, democratic or not, will have law as its foundation. A tyranny will also justify itself with laws it passes that are consistent with its values. What separates a democratic society from a tyranny is the mandated creation of laws in the first place and the negotiation and refinement of those laws once they are established.

Premier Campbell is demonstrating an authoritarian, anti-democratic approach to governance in his creation of laws when he had no mandate to do so and in his hard line demands for adherence to those laws. Where was the referendum, or the plebiscite, or the polls or the public consultation that would lead him to believe he is acting in accordance with the wishes of the electorate?

Any teacher will tell you it’s a bad idea to make up harsh and restrictive rules off the top of your head and then expect people to go along with them. Any teacher will tell you that you should expect people to call you on rules that are patently unfair. The BCTF is resisting in a reasonable way and in the best way available to it.

It’s time we held Mr Campbell’s feet to the fire.

yeah right,

if anyone is interested in the facts about teacher salaries see:
http://www.bctf.bc.ca/ResearchReports/2005ts01/report.html

Enough is enough folks. Mike de Jong has got to go as the so called Minister of labour. His behavior during the Teacher’s dispute has been appalling.

His duties as Minister should be trying to bring the two parties together rather than standing at the side of government manning the heavy artillery.

In reality though, it is still a select few who are controlling things behind the scenes. Gordon Campbell, our premier, along with his small army of un-elected neo-conservative operatives with links to Ralph Klein’s administration, call all of the shots.

For example, after the results of the 2001 election it was a gleeful Rod Love who said that you (Gordon Campbell) have the mandate to “squash the unions like a bug”. That same Rod Love, who is currently a Calgary-based political and communications consultant, was chief of staff to Alberta Premier Ralph Klein and a senior adviser to former Canadian Alliance leader Stockwell Day.

Here lies one of the main problems with the labour climate in BC today. A government set on breaking the unions due to operatives behind the scenes advising the Campbell government.

Lets get serious folks and demand that Gordon Campbell relive Mike De Jong of his duties as Minister of Labour and place someone in there who is really going to roll up their sleeves and bring the two sides together.

As we all know Mike De Jong was incompetent as the minister responsible for Forests during the last Campbell administration. One reporter even referred to him as “being thick as wood” due to his blundering of the whole softwood lumber dispute. The only real credit that can be leveled towards Mr. De Jong is being responsible for the record number of raw log exported during his tenure as Minister responsible.

Mr. Campbell, appoint a new Labour Minister and give them an honest mandate to resolve this dispute once and for all. This has gone on long enough!

The 'king' is an imposter.

Hey kaybertoss, good idea but go a bit further. They all have to go.

To risk the wrath of Jimmy boy, Gordo and his ilk do not have a mandate. YES they have more seats but not the popular vote. The majority support the teachers and voted against Gordo. It's beautiful to see the masses out and alive against tyranny. Jimmy and Ronnie can rant all they like but when it comes down
to it the right has only corp. money and the MSM . Right wing groups can never get out large #'s , the reason is they believe in nothing . Can you imagine Gordo trying to turn out supporters at a rally. It would just be
Jim and Ron on the back off Ron's pick up. But Ron thought it was to support Stockwell day and his
stand against gay marriage. LOL

We see how much power the courts have when the province is shut down. Time to toss out
a corrupt regime

Sorry the sight of Gordo and Mike de Jong hardly make anyone think good law biding citizens.

Jim, I believe it is 15 sick days a year.

Maybe when this is all over teachers should use them all up instead of saving them and getting nothing for them at the end. Most of the teachers I know use very few sick days because they are so dedicated.

What a crock head!

The courts do not want to solve this labour dispute! The government is going to have to clean up the mess that it made. Table time, guys!

check out the bctf website!

The B.C. Minister of Labour, Mike de Jong, was on CTV last evening, saying he would disregard anything the I.L.O. of the U.N. might say about the illegality of B.C.'s labour laws.

Just like George W. Bush, Mike de Jong declares that he isn't going to jeopardize our sovereignty by paying heed to this foreign group. This world body. This United Nations which Canada helped to found, and ever since has been a member.

So ... does this mean he, on behalf of British Columbia, disregards all other U.N. positions on war crimes, health, AIDS ... ? Who is this de Jong guy, anyway?!

I urge all parents who are financially affected by this illegal strike to go to The Canadian Taxpayers Federation website . They are championing a class action law suit against the BCTF.
They offer a simple online form that can be filled out over the internet.

JIm
Get your facts straight before you open your mouth!

Je dong is just a fall guy for Gordo. I think of them as Bozo and Boozo.

Maybe Vince Ready can get bozo and boozo to actually negotiate instead of trying to hide under the judge's robes while B.C. slips into total chaos.

How's that private school thing coming Ronny...did the kilt help?

Great turn out at the Leg: yesterday, almost as big as the protest the loggers threw at Harcourt and the NDP.
This one has to have more meaning because it's a fundamental rights issue.

PS: not that it means much, but Oct. 17 is Treudeau's birthdate.

DEMOCRACY is a 24/7 exercise.

Let's get togeather and have a class action lawsuit against ron Erwin. His insulting, evil statemets clearly need some sort of action.

Taxpayer's Federation - why don't they moan over RAV as it is now $1.4 billion more than it should cost! Oh yes it's Liberal project and they don't count.

Creepy, definitely. Doo doo droppings come to life. And a traitorous Yankee wannabe to boot.

eln' Jim has the salary a bit high, but wherelse is he off ?

Membership is free...C.I.R.E. Reward obtained instantly!
Coalition to Ignore Ron Erwin
It really is time, don't ya think?

Ron and Jim can only compare their miserable existance and reasons for working to those of a teacher. Ron and Jim feel that salary, holidays and pensions ARE the ONLY reasons to go to work. This is a simplistic and very disappointing life one leads when they can only attach tangible and measurable commodities as their reason for working.

Unlike Ron and Jim, teachers WANT to do their job with pride. One can not do this job with pride under the Liberal agenda of education. I don't care about the "facts" Gordo, Jim and Ron throw out there, I know my own truths from my own experiences. FACT In 1997 if 51 children signed up for my elective class, I would have received 3 blocks of which 17 children would have been placed. I now receive 2 blocks 1 for 25 kids and 1 for 26 kids. BTW I teach Woodshop (hence my grammar and spelling may be considered poor). FACT In 97 our Tech ed area got an operating budget of around 15 grand for supplies and materials. In 05 the same number of kids signed up for Tech ed and we shared 6000 dollars for supplies and materials. In case you havent bought a sheet of plywood lately, its a hell of a lot more money than it was in 97. So don't quote me bullshit about Gordo and the Libs putting more money into the system any longer Ron or JIm.

When a bottom line gov't sees that the basic needs of the student could be met with minimal amounts of money, they jump to the idea. Ron and Jim think that a child in a class IS learning. This is true, they are learning. They are meeting the basic elements of education, but the learning is no where near the level it could be or should be and that is sad. Especially in this day and age.

You should see some of the red necks on the Canadian Tax Payers website, you could basically organize a KKK meeing right online. I know now where Ron gets his material.

Hey clubofrome, your okay if you support CO Op,
Good talk by Norm today. Love him

Lets organize a lawsuit against this organization, any ideas. Canadian Tax Payers Fed, what a joke.

Can I sue ron and jim for emotional abuse since they continually assault my senses with their non-stop bullshit?

Just wondering...

Actually, never mind, I'm not really interested in winning either of their parent's basements or their collection of George Bush Action Figures.

British Columbia seems a healthier place today than it has been for a long time.

The Cdn Taxpayer's Assn is nothing more than a collection of parasites looking to bloat themselves - at the expense of hardworking taxpayers in the BCFT, HEU, ETC.

Everyone I talked to that came back from the protest said it was great. I have to thank the BC Fed for organizing and running the protest for the teachers. They did a great job.

Hopefully, the BC Liberals will sit up and take notice. They have totally misjudged the public on this one. The teachers know that the majority is behind us. Thanks!

Ron Irwin thinks the sight of a peaceful demonstration and protest is creepy...would he prefer the state police fire live bullets into the crowd? That could be done too...they do that in China and Cuba too...
Protesting is as much a part of a real democracy as voting itself. Ron Irwin might not agree with the reasons for the protest, but if he was a real supporter of democracy, he would embrace their right to protest.
When the shoe was on the other foot and the NDP was in power, I remember the anti-ndp rallies that were held...I didn't agree with all that they were saying, but I supported their right to say it.
I guess 'freedom' and 'democracy' are relative terms in some peoples eyes...

Good one, Stuart.

Still it would be Global's lead story at six pm, just before the comet strikes earth filler item. Keith Baldrey, (after just getting off the phone from talking to Gordo) would call the rally turn-out "massive", bordering on the colossal. A momentous day in BC history...a turning point.

Then he would interview Ron...and follow that up by interviewing Jim (all in the interest of fair, unbiased and balanced reporting.) Then Ron would interview Jim....and then Jim would interview Ron. Then they'd all fall off the back of the pick-up truck.

That would be the lead story at eleven.

Now, Stuart has these braunshirt ravers about right, no doubt. And a problem these wingnuts are, dressed up in drag as actual tax payers, no doubt.

On the other hand, we are approaching, what is likely, the critical make or break stage of this teachers' strike. And this is the point where I start to worry about the resolve of the labour bureaucracy, based on historical past practice.

Vince Ready (Reddie?) is involved, with whom any CAW members here who drive Vancouver's transit system, for example, have had some experience. "Facilitator" may ass. Facilitator is just another soft shoe shuffle word for mediator. Negotiations are underway through Ready, as a mediator, to try and find the "deal" that will end this thing.

The point being, this is where teachers, and those of us who support them, need to be paying close attention and pressing for information from the BCTF and BCFed leadership. Otherwise, the risk exists that a deal not in your interests can be slid over you like the hood over the hangee at a lynching, just before the bottom drops out of his world.

And I ain't saying that IS what is going to happen here... Hopefully not. ... but merely that this is the place in this process where the lessons of Operation Solidarity 1983 begin to become especially relevant.

Pay attention our teacher friends. And I know you are not fools-, but neither is the government nor are the union bureaucrats, when the latter especially have decided they at a place it is in their interests to walk away.

My hope is, of course, that the trade union leadership understands they are finally arrived at that crossroads where this fight must be won in all its critical elements, guaranteeing teachers' right to bargain collectively, including all issues of wages and conditions of work, which includes the student and classroom policy issues, and that there shall not be State/Court reprisals against individual teachers or their Union-, before signing off and returning to work. (And pay close attention to that last point I raise, or you could wind up paying for your own contract with the financial busting of your union.)

It's your deal, of course, and no one will deny you that here, but at the same time, there is a not really good history here to these kinds of outcomes. I personally am with you no matter what. Others will speak for themselves.

It is important that all actions, by way of rolling strikes, though I would prefer a full out General Strike myself, continue, and not be delayed or let up. We must continue to hold their feet to the fire.

The "crunch" approacheth. Regardless of what the media says, negotiations, at least of a kind, are already underway. Stay strong. A great start counts for not, if there is not a good and satisfactory finish. (Which is where the problem was in 1983, and in the last bus drivers' strike I was on, for examples. :-)

Victory to the teachers-, and to everyone who supports them!

May the Braunshirt Wingnuts roast in Hell!

Good pieces both, Lynn and Stuart. That will keep me giggling until bed time.

This came just after my post, so I assume he's talking about me. Well I'm not a teacher, and like most teachers I don't make anywhere near $70,000.00. I have a collective agreement that protects me that was negotiated between employee and employer. I belong to a union local that hasn't been out on strike for more than an hour in the last 30 years.

The fellow members of my union who went to the protest and who closed all the libraries in Greater Victoria with their pickets got and will no pay for their efforts. We went and peacefully stood in the rain and protested a bad law.

We, like hundreds and thousands of our fellow workers, are drawing the line at bill 12. It cannot stand.

And yes. I;ll admit to still being terrified. Terrified but determined.

Incredulously, I witness a government with the audacity to believe that a group as educated and committed to the public welfare as the BCTF would/could continue to follow legislation created with such malice and gall. Where are the hearts of these people called our leaders?

I have been following the NDP newsletters, most of them pretty much monopolized by the teacher's strike, of course. Thus far, they seem to be making a useful effort on both the working public's and the teachers' behalf.

But as in the HEU strike, as HEU workers will recall, I know many here will anyway, it was in the final hours that all the treachery went on, coming out of the backrooms-, which bitter taste lingers in their memory still.

Eternal vigilance is indeed the price of freedom-, that's worth more than the paper pulp it is written on anyway.

Thanks for clarifying the moment, coyote. I've got faith in the BCTF leadership and my own local ... I'm on pins and needles about this facilitator/negotiator. I really don't want to see another HEU Strike repeat here.

I was on coffee truck duty this late afternoon. Folks on the picket lines were exhuberant!

Canadian Taxpayers Federation blog:

http://www.taxpayersfederation.blogspot.com/

Ahh, Coyote, I don't think that the BCTF is capable of signing any agreement without the membership voting. And personally I don't think that anyone BCTF, BCFED, or otherwise is going to shut this down without concessions to the teachers concerns.
It would be nice to actually have both gov't and union in the same building if not room,(and I'm not talking courtroom) but I guess Vince Ready on the phone(?) is a start.

Blonde Pitbull is right, Coyote. After the HEU debacle, many of us were furious that our BCTF leadership had not consulted us first before agreeing to step back. They are absolutely tied to membership vote to end the strike. We are, at present, a highly democratic union. I just hope the "concessions to teachers concerns," Blonde Pitbull, are truly substantive - before they get put to membership.

I would like to view ronny irwin up close and give him some rhetoric!

That is exactly the real risk here... at this moment and in the days ahead.

Powerful piece, Coyote.

Note on the Taxpayer's website link section they link to the Cato Institute etal.

Their Papa started in Washington DC and notice FAIR VOTING CANADA the ones pushing electoral reform.

Knowing these people and their love of Orwellian terms, we know what FAIR VOTING means.

ronny irwin spews

"A mickey mouse protest by Public Sector Unions in a small town in Canada won't stop the dreaded right wing wave from washing itself onto the shores of Dalls Road. I am not scared."

True ignorance is bliss eh ronny! Why do you only post from 9-5?

Just stand firm. You'll do just fine.

I think we should set up a Real Taxpayers Coalition of our own -- one which is truly in support of fair taxation, ie., corporate taxation.

Why don't we start launching class action law suits against these right wing lobby groups like the tax payers and the fraser institute for effectively lobbying to bring down our standard of living, loss of social programs etc.

How about a law suit launched of behalf of the working poor these morons have hurt, the children living below the poverty line while these parasites are getting huge saleries to screw us!

sarah macintyre would look real good in nice little cell opposite the drunk in my opinion!

ursus: you know, i've been trying to think of a way to get this bogus legislation repealed and all I can come up with and so far I haven't found a way to get it done (other than a general strike). The last time we had RECALL petitions they didn't work. The numbers don't crunch when you have people in the riding giving multiple signatures. Or people from other ridings signing. Unless we asked for ID from everyone signing.
Is there anyone out there with legislative experience that may be able to answer this.
Not Ron or JIm or sd. They never have any input on anything anyway.

Indeed. Many unions are not "capable" of signing agreements without the vote of memberships. Strikes do drag on however, and take their tolls on people and their resolve. "Employers" and "union leaderships" both know that. And Voice touches the sweet spot, when he/she says, "I just hope the 'concessions to teachers concerns" ... are truly substantive before they get put to membership."

He/she is clearly more aware than he/she is putting entirely into words here.

In other words, if leadership breaks too soon, as often does happen in real negotiations, for whatever reasons, and there can be many, and brings back a proposed settlement that falls short of minimum demands, it typically begins a process that splits memberships and weakens final outcomes. In the classic "business union" model, which is still very much with us, while the rallying the troops talk is typically strong, and very militant sounding, the outcomes in practice is to look for and settle around a minimum breaking point that will secure something more than the minimum required 50% plus one vote. What is the acceptable minimum for teachers, in their majority?

Again, typically for the "business union" model of trade unionism, "the deal" that will secure that, is typically their raison d'etre. Which again, typically, over the postwar period involved contenting oneself with making material or monetary gains, and sacrificing the broader political and social objectives that would over time strengthen the unions position and that of the class and community overall. In effect, that would mean for teachers, will they break around an agreement that will negotiate them a wage increase and secure their right to bargain that issue, while sacificaing the broader community and teacher concerns about education funding and class sizes etc. This latter being left to remain, as you can bet the Campbell government will be wanting to secure, as a more traditional "management rights issue" left to them and the political processes over which they exercise greater control. (My bet is the government will dearly hate to let go of this matter. It is one their real backers want seriously out of the hands of the teachers and their union. Management Rights is their sacred cow, and that of the entire "owning class".)

If I was a government negotiator, and a classis business union model of trade unionist, I know I would tend to see the "deal breaker" at agreeing to provide teachers with as minimum a wage increase settlement as I thought they would accept, and providing some kind of more or less vague, even if written guarantee, to protect their "formal" bargaining rights, even the right to strike, but taking out of the loop and maintaining in State/Management hands, control over the issues of education funding and class sizes. This to them is again, a classic "Management Rights" issue.

continued next post...

Continued from previous post...

After X days or weeks on strike, would teachers tend to agree to that in their 50% plus 1 majority? Especially if they are faced with the prospect of bankrupting their union and maybe personal punitive court measures? I suspect so. At least it is highly likely, or a serious danger.

So nothing substantive other than wages and a "formal" guarantee of limited bargaining rights, even if including the right to strike, would change very little. Everyone would simply continue to more or less stand in place at the status quo, while the State prepares a stronger attack the next time.

So, the deal the BC Fed and the Union come back with, and Jinny Simms may be tougher and more principled than "the average" I don't know, will tell us a lot about where both bureaucracies see this going and settling.

The vote result will tell the rest of the story.

The point being, from my perspective, is maintain the pressure on both parties, to bring back a deal that secures victory on all your main bargaining points, both from a self-interest and, but especially, community interest perspective. Or the next time you turn around looking for that community support, and there will be a next time, the next time you are under attack, you may find that community interest more disinterested or even hostile to the Union and yourselves. They will conclude that you betrayed them, and in the end, only looked after your own interest.

We are in a social, political and economic situation with the system, going forward, where "labour" will only be able to win in broad alliances with other community interests, being onside with them and having them onside with us, in the development of new democratic and economic models-, in my view.

There is democracy, and then there is democracy. Just like there is leadership, and then there is leadership.

All I am saying is, we are at a place where it is especially important to be aware of all the elements.

Coyote the thought of the reactions of the teachers and their growing supporters if given a watered down verison of their pre 2002 contracts....Well, I just don't want to see it thanks.

re: ron erwin
OMG! Why does RErwin only post from 9-5? Hmmm... Is RErwin not working like he/she should be? And after 5, maybe his/her mom doesn't let him/her use the internet. hee hee

Nor do I. I want that teachers shall secure their full bargaining rights, including the right to negotiate education funding and class size issues etc., the right to strike, and to negotiate an appropriate wage settlement.

Reality may be something else. I have been in this place before with these players, or players much like these. So excuse me if I am more cynical than smitten with naivete, or youthful idealiam.

Be prepared for the worst however, casting a more jaundiced eye towards the follies of men (and women), and ye may just walk off the field of battle as the Victor.

:-)

Nighty-night all. Mrs. Coyote calls me to her bed, and the only sin the Gods will not forgive, is that a woman shall call a man to her bed-, and he will not go. (Zorba) :-)

Many thanks, Coyote, for your impressive posts.

Right on the money.

Newsflash:

"Vince Ready met BCTF President Jinny Sims Tuesday, and while no one is saying what was discussed, the fact that Ready is getting involved is seen as the most positive sign so far.

Hugh Finlayson, head of the BC Public School Employers' Association, hopes this means the illegal strike action will end soon. "We know Vince's reputation and worked with Vince before, so we're prepared to work with him as we have before. It's really hard to speculate on what would have happened had (Ready taken over) months ago or a week ago. I think it's much more productive to focus on what we need to do now."

Finlayson says he has not been contacted, but the employers are prepared to meet with Ready at his request."

I wonder if Finlayson is feeling kind of irrelevant at the moment. With 34 school boards sending letters and making motions against the BCPSEA's agenda, more than half their membership is going behind their back. It is time to get rid of the BCPSEA. School boards were absolutely correct when they said it was a waste of money.

At 5:30AM I just heard on the CBC radio that the prosecutors of British Columbia have announced that they WILL NOT act to prosecute any teachers or BCTF leaders who are criminally charged as they feel they would be biased. This is a result of their own experiences with this government and its refusal to negotiate in good faith. They haved launced a lawsuit against the government over the governments failure to live up to agreements.

What now, I guess Gordo has to hire a whole herd of "special" prosecutors, or what?

It should be apparent to anyone with eyes that function that it is this government that is lacking in respect for the law!

Now at 6:30AM there is more info re: the crown prosecutors.

It appears that this is why Gordo's gang retained Len Daoust, as the Assoc. of Crown Counsels informed the AG on Friday that they would be unable to prosecute the teachers as the teacher's situation was too similiar to their own and thus they might well be biased. Of course (no surprise) the Fiberals didn't really explain why they appointed the "special" prosecutor, I guess they found it embarrassing to admit their regular prosecutors were busy prosecuting them for the same kind of high handed disrepect for people and the law.

If Wally Oppal has any respect for the law and/or justice he must be wondering why he decided to leave the bench, and cast his lot with this gang of liars and thieves. If not, it's probably best that he did step down from the bench.

Please don't forget that the Cathedral Grove protesters last year won out against this Campbell Government when the judge ruled that they had been "set up" just as the B.C.T.F. was set up by Bill 12.

Mary, I guess we will see whether the courts are truly independent or just another arm of the only legislature to be raided with warrants by the RCMP. At some point citizens must decide whether "laws" are just and thereby justified and worthy of being respected. After all, none of the "good" Germans were breaking the law during the Third Reich, either, at least not in the opinion of the government of the day. Bill 12 is reminiscent of the special "Terry Shiavo" bill that got Duuuuhbya to fly to Washington in his jammies. Custom or retro-active laws to suit the moment are always suspect in a true democracy. Either people have rights or they don't and De Jong sounds like Duuuuuhbya in his comments regarding the UN and the ILO.

Coyote, without a doubt you've seen much more of this than I, but I'm hoping that you're wrong. So I'm still telling the teachers to stand firm. Maybe this time the jaundiced eyes of yours/ours might be surprised. Only time will tell.
Anyways, I meant no disrespect to you I meant only to point out to you that the teachers have made it so that they individually have to vote to make a contract. The backroom dealings can't go further than a vote amongst membership without their approval. And I don't think the gov't is in the position to wait it out to errode the teachers moral as happens in long drawn out conflicts. How naive or idealistic this turns out to be...

Certainly do not get me wrong, my Blonde Pitbull friend. I very much do think that teachers can still win this one.

It's just mostly that we need know, as does the State and some elements of bureaucracies, that there is more than one way to skin a cat. A realistic awareness of the full dimensions of the struggle one is in, can actually increase one's chances of success, not diminish them. :-) Would you agree with that?

But by all bloody means, do encourage teachers to stand firm. A strong possibility of victory for them, on all their major goals, is still out there, I very much think. (And my views are no more nor less than just that. No better really than yours.)

At the end of the day, however it turns out, victory or defeat, it really is teachers in alliance with their community of support, who really will decide it, whatever the backroom boys and girls do.

I certainly am not defeatist by any stretch. Quite the opposite. Teachers have been incredibly strong and together to here.

Blonde Pitbull, some of the potential perils/opportunities I see, a la Coyote, are: leadership's vision/resolve regarding community vs self-interest and our members resolve/education/vision regarding community vs self-interest. I am proud to be in a social justice union that does have a big vision of the relationship between education and all human and environmental rights BUT I am still not completely confident that our membership is on board...and where our leadership might finally fall.

I'm not sure I have said anything new here but these are my own words for it...

p.s. Coyote, I hope Mrs. Coyote treated you well last night.

You can bet I agree with that Coyote its how I manage to "win" at so many arguements:-D

Coyote

I have to agree with your concerns and points on how this "Bargaining system" works. In the process of bargaining the "Company" will use little carrots to try and divide and weaken the solidarity of the membership. If the Union negotiators refuse to take the "Final Offer" back to the membership, they risk losing credibilty with the public and their members. In my union the negotiators can not sign any agreement without the majority acceptance of the membership by secert ballot. "Management Rights" issues are the hardest to negotiate with any management group because the benefits gained are sometimes not readily apparent. More so if your membership has no monies coming in. Beware of Vince for he is a master at seeming to know where the point is that will put as much pressure on the union to take back an agreement that is short of the members expectation.

Don't get me wrong. I'm fully behind the teachers. I just don't get this attributing god-like status to Vince Ready.

In a situation so clearly contrived by this anti-social government, Ready's task could be accomplished by any moral, reasonably intelligent person.

Who is saying Vince Ready is a god...here? Who the hell is he anyway?

off to the picket lines...

Community vs. self interests? A delicate balancing act for sure...

skeptikool

These guys do not let little things like morality and intelligence get in the way of their goals.

The Power Of the People is a great force to be used sparingly and not squandered. We are solidly behind the teachers in this as we were with the HEU. Beware of politically motivated union leaders who very often have their own agendas.

blonde pitbull

We have to remember "We are the community and the community are us." If the public was more aware of this they would realize that we fight for them. The "Management" of any cooperation, of which this Government is one, has only the concern of looking good in order to remain the light of their masters eyes. Elected, maybe, but we all know who the masters of this "Management Group" is. It is not the people of this province.

Opps "Is, are."

Thanks rkwren. See how duplicitous they are? And, the media should have jumped on that story and did not. And, they're not complicit? What a bunch of liars.

That normally would be a big story. But, would get the attention of the public big time. I know the chickens will come home to roost with these guys. It's only a matter of time.

These are the people drowning our province in the bathtub, never mind government. They are so dishonest.

GWNORTH you haven't said anything I would disagree with. If Campbell and puppets are thinking that they are looking good to the public, especially those that they truly bow to, they are sadly mistaken. I actually was thinking about the "PR war" more than literal community and teacher. I stand corrected. :-)

Fine woman that she is, she always treats me well. :-)

My daughters say that she spoils me. As if that were possible. :-)

"And, the media should have jumped on that story and did not. And, they're not complicit? What a bunch of liars."

Whoa there. Where'd you hear about it? The grapevine? That particular angle was broken by a Fraser Valley paper. Citytv included it as part of its coverage last night. It's one part of a much bigger picture and was treated as such.

Complicit? Liars? I don't think you can tar every media outlet with that brush and it would be nice if you didn't.

Stump: if you mean the story of the special prosecutor declining to take action against the B.C.T.F., that was on CBC ... and I sure haven't seen or heard this stunning news being picked up and discussed elsewhere.

You ay you saw it in a Fraser Valley newspaper? Ha. Well, golly gee, nobody can say that cunning CanWest didn't publish this smirch against their poster boy, can they?

"Media" is plural, y'know. Needs more than one little newspaper to become The Media. But I agree, it does make a nice beginning.

That angle is exactly what I'm talking about. As I noted earlier, Citytv included it in its coverage. As you've pointed out, it was on the CBC. It's now being reported in other places as well.

I don't think throwing around words like 'complicit' or 'liars' is fair, justified, or expedient, esp. when a lot of reporters are busting their ass to do their jobs and dealing with a myriad of problems that armchair journalists don't have to consider.

Stump, I took your suggestion and turned on citytv last night and changed the channel when the anchor slanted the poll story by opening with words to the effect that support for the teachers was quickly falling. I thought there must be a new poll, but then it was the same poll that showed a lot of support! So, I turned it off.

I'm not saying all people in the media are liars and complicit. Clearly a majority are. This is a huge element of this story. CKNW releases it days later at 5am in the morning! Excuse me, but I'm entitled to be angry and disappointed with our local media. Without the comlicity they wouldn't be able to get away with destroying our province. Most outlets said the special prosecutor was appointed to avoid conflict of interest because the gov't was the employer! Isn't that a lie?

My big bitch is the teachers including students in their pickets...
There's no doubt that most of the teachers are dedicated professionals who put in a lot of hours and extra effort for the students during the school year. But one must remember that they have almost 3 months vacation time per year plus their "professional" days.
Admittedly the Liberals handled negotiations badly, but the teachers have to share some of the blame for all of this. Teachers are making their demands on students' time.
Both parties should be made to sit down at the negotiating table on their own time - meaning weekends and/or when they normally take their holidays - which may be as much of an imposition for the government as it would be for the teachers.
And students on the picket lines? They really don't know what the issues are and are just there because of amenity for their teachers. In fact, for the teachers to encourage students' participation is a little on the shady side.
And..... Jinny Sims needs a PR person.

Another thing, Stump, I started hanging out at the radio station when I was days old. Was on air (jingle/commercials) when I was three. My earliest memory was the yellow pages of the news wire. While I'm not a journalist, I understand journalism. And, I'm familiar with the concept of journalistic integrity. I have sympathy for those forced to be silent when they have mouths to feed. That still doesn't change the fact that the media has been muzzled.

Jacks, if you think those kids are on the picket lines without their parent's knowledge, you are dreaming.

Well, it's a great theory. In the newsroom I work in, it's not true. If the sight and sound of someone disagreeing with you is enough to make you change the channel you WILL be ill-served by the media, no matter what perspective they put forth.

-----------

I'm back after checking the scripts for last night's show. Among numerous stories talking about how the government has blinked, how support is still strong, there's some mention that support for the cause remains strong, but support for the strike is slipping. If you don't like the facts, don't watch the news.
-------
Gotta get back to work before G. Campbell tells my boss to fire me. NOT!!!!!!!!!1

If the media had shone a spotlight on the Libs before this election, they would not be in power right now. How do you think the media would be treating this gov't if it were NDP and the prosecutors refused to prosecute because of conflict of interest because they were suing the gov't because the gov't didn't abide with binding negotiations etal. It would scream from the headlines and you know it.

Stump, I have little tolerance for sitting through propaganda your right. And, please do check the transcript and when you do talk to the copywriter.

you're, not your

I see you mean you already have checked the transcript. And, you'll notice, they LED with 'support is slipping, or falling'.

I acknowledge journalists are in a difficult situation, Stump.

I looked at the script. It wasn't our lead. We led with Vince Ready being appointed as mediator and why it was an indication the gov't blinked. The public opinion stuff was a minor element.

Sorry, but a brief mention of a change in public opinion is not an indication of bias, or of propoganda, it's a reflection of the facts, as unpalatable as they may be. Like it or not, the public is pretty evenly divided on this thing, with the teachers ahead by a moderately-sized margin.

Are you suggesting we should pick and choose which facts we present to favour a particular side? A very slippery slope indeed.

Stump, thanks for trying to make the journalists' work more understandable.

But you must know (or if not, would you please let us tell you?) that British Columbians have suffered keenly as a result of the corporate media in B.C.

And when you accidentally-on-purpose leave out vital information, it can damage reputations, change election results, and in the end, withers away your own audience. You must know that the dilemma facing the B.C. Special Prosecutors is critical to the topic under discussion.

I just wish we could all work as if we understood that we're all in this together.

I'm sorry, but your ascribing motives that simply aren't there, just because news reports don't jibe with your reality. Must be nice to such confidence in your p.o.v. While I share many of your beliefs, I won't hear my co-workers being described as shills for the government, simply because it's the exact opposite of the reality. Having said that, I'm going to bow out of this debate while I'll still civil.

peace

redrivergirl said:

I second that!!!!!

Eventually one day we will be able to discuss what constitutes a real education.

Students have every right to be on the picket line. This is their world, too and their education system.

Your education begins the moment you take your first breath...has little to do with the four walls of a classroom. A great teacher promotes critical thought in relation to knowledge learned... inspiring curiousity and imagination that hopefully leads to the love of more and more learning.

But there is a whole world outside of the classroom.

That all over the world people are finding themselves at this juncture - fighting for their human rights against a corporate system that feeds on the destruction of those rights, not only reveals how the failures of capitalism have entranced and entrapped us all but how our education system too has failed in this regard...that so many of us cannot recognize the failure of the system in which we live until it is too late and finally upon that recognition have little idea of what to actually do.

The inability to recognize that this is becoming a question of our own survival indicates real failures in all of the system, including education.

So the student on the picket line to me at least is a hopeful sign - and the best kind of learning process - one that indicates the future may be a lot less bleak than it now appears.

That's why, too, the goal of simply "getting back to school" is no definition of educational nirvana... it's what we'll find when we get there... and how relative that is to the actual "living" of meaningful lives.

Stump, the story led with both in voice and slide that support for the teachers was slipping. We all know that people listen more intently to the lead.

Stump, I haven't watched your station enough to say it is generally biased. It seems as if you are quite confident in your POV as well and perhaps as a working journalist that is something to consider.

Stump, I am not attacking you. I have said more than once I have sympathy for journalists right now. But, one would have to be blind not to understand what is happening in the media today.

I am not your stations demographic so I wouldn't be concerned about that. I was in your demographic when Moses first opened! lol

I am not slamming your station, nor your coworkers.

You are mischaracterizing my POV to say it is that I don't like the facts. You don't have to agree. I will take it on your word that citytv is generally unbiased. I know one story does not propaganda make. I was responding to your comment about how I was processing your story.

Once Vince Ready has finished investigating why the collective bargaining system did not work for the B.C. Teachers dispute, perhaps the Federal and B.C. governments could contract him to see if he can discover why the NAFTA dispute review panel doesn't work.

With which POV (I'm entranced by new acronyms. New to me.:-) I am completely in agreement. There is much to much controlling of people going on, from too early an age, within much, much too straight, anal and uptight capitalism. Manifest from time to time even here on Tyee, "The Feisty One"! :-)(Which doubtless has something to do with all the porn and abuse of the young, that goes on within the, "Oh so moral!" social system, in the perverse, twisting back on itself way these things work.)

Then where it is important, like in the poverty rates of children, concern for adequate day care of hard pressed working parents in the new Minimum Wage Capitalism, and arming children with sexual knowledge so that they can protect themselves, the same types suddenly can't see what the problem is, or blame parents, teachers etc. etc., anything but the inadequacies and short comings of a disempowering and greedy, priviledged class serving social order.

Jack's type need to check and see what they're leaving behind when they get off the pottie.

Kids should be getting an education on the history of working people and the labour movement from an early age, within the school system, instead of almost exclusively about "all the Great Men of Capitalism" . Their hanging around a picket line and talking to teachers or anyone on strike, can serve as an important lesson on democracy and how it really works-, that won't do them anything but good as they grow older and get out in the real world and society in which they live.

Excellent wee post, Lynn.

While I agree that students should be informed of the good and bad of various economic systems and indeed employee associations, I cannot agree kids should participate in picket lines.

The impart of education must be neutral, complete, informative with all the pros and cons presented.

I once attended a presentation by the a former president of the BCGEU. He was both articulate in dealing with the issues of unionism and that of management. One of the major challenges confronted how ever was the issue of militancy within the union ranks. He underlined the process, where employees gain a whole bunch more from the employer when sanity prevails even with heavy handed issues.

It is important in every subject to expose our youth to as many facets of history real, unreal, past and current. But such must be exercised where the students can make up their own minds given the knowledge absorbed.

Education should be neutral, full and balanced!

to sdgreen..

"..I cannot agree kids should participate in picket lines."

Kids (more likely, teens that are in highschool) have as much interest in politics as anyone else...some are totally into it, others could care less. Shielding kids from a legitimate part of real democracy doesn't bode well for educating youth about democracy and voting.
Kids are far smarter than adults give them credit for. For all the ranting that some bc liberals do about the 'leftist BCTF', kids manage to finish highschool and vote in elections based on their own views...some vote left, others vote right.
Protesting, picket lines and other misc. demonstrations are as much a part of democracy as voting itself is. How would we expect the next generation of this nations' rulers to make objective, educated decisions if we block them from learning it as a youth?

I just want to line up a little bit with Journalist's a wee bit.

I guess I'm a bit of a student of this craft too. Over many years I've been interviewed for radio, TV, newspapers and magazines. Also I've assisted researchers for documentaries and films etc.

Have I been burned by the media? Yes. But overall I would have to say my personal experience for the issues I stand for has been positive.

I completely get what both Stump and redrivergirl are saying. In many respects both are right. And so is Rafe Mair on these pages of The Tyee.

I am completely convinced that we as working people have to be very careful when and how we complain about the media. The media is as has been rightly pointed out, is full of working people too. When we say "journalist" or "media" we have to be careful that we are not just making a blanket statement that everyone in that craft is evil. They are not.

Self censorship? Yup, it happens. And lots of times when a story is filed it is shall we say corrected, if its caught. But lots of times these more positive terms slip through. Slipped through by reporters who have some moxy and know when the time is right to let one slide through.

Most folks probably don't know this but the union representing the folks at the Sun and Province invoked a labour dispute clause in their collective agreement in support of the Telus workers. There has been no adverizing of Telus in those papers recently. The publishers response was to send a memo to the staff saying there will be a consequence. And that was a ban on postings and overtime and other conditions.

There has been more than a few reporters who have paid for solidarity with the TWU.

Now, in no way am I giving the media a free pass here, all I'm saying is that pick your targets carefully when heaping scorn. Please do not think everyone working in that business is the scum of the earth. Cut them a little slack. Most of them deserve it.

sdgreen,
The corporate (reductionist) point of view is the curricula spewed forth by commercial media. The socialist perspective is largely unseen because it is counter to the needs of big business. CBC has been whittled down to a thread. There is little capital to support media that offers alternative points of view. After all, what businesses will advertise in a newspaper, magazine or television program that shows exactly how the owners of large businesses have tax dodges created for them to stay on top. The corporate world that is intent on down-sizing and union-busting often doesn't understand that employees are taking a risk on the employer's ability to remain in business by being somewhat prudent with how the business is run.

6PM CTV news:

"Hello, this is Bill Good. Coming up, the continuation of the school strike turns our kids into mall rats."

WHAT A CLOWN

It looks like the government may be blinking again. I just read on Canada.com an article entitled "B.C. may end strike through Legislation" My first thoughts were,"right, I guess they want to see what a gneral strike is really like".
Then as I went on to read the article DeJong says they may alter the legislation to remove a roadblock and allow discussion on clas sizes.
That still won't work. They have to remove this bad piece of legislation. Alterinf it slightly does not remove the basic facts.

A senior journalist who is my friend, quit the job he loved when her CanWest news editor began changing the meaning of her stories, often without her knowledge, and yet running the stories over her well-known by-line.

This is an affront to the journalist as well as to the readers. It is assuredly putting the owners' bias onto the published stories.

I wish PeteL would offer some creative suggestions for ways in which the public could bring their concerns to the newspaper/TV owners.

Where the hell, whenever, and in what bloody society has one ever experienced this kind of an education? Certainly not within extant capitalism-, not in my lifetime.

You continue to live in your own particular kind of Lotusland Fantasyland, my friend.

At the same time, whilst I initially reacted with some "negativity" to what Peterl had to say about media, upon sober second thought, he is not too, too far off base, I think.

I understand that while "corporate media" essentially serves, or seeks to serve, its own interests and that of its "revenue base", it too has to live in the real world, even if much controlled by it-, not entirely. (While they may have an interest in keeping the working class convinced and onside with capitalism, they can't do that if they won't even read it, as is tending to occur anyway, with declining readership rates. And what corporate advertizer wants to place ad space in a media if it doesn't have an actual readership of note. Generating cash flow is really the whole system's beating heart afterall. So there is a kind of balancing act that does have to go on.)

Also, it must employ "other" real working people, from pressmen to journalists etc., who also have their own interests and chafing points, where they will want to and will seek to resist and circumvent the dominating corporatist bias, no doubt. And every once in awhile, they do manage to "get one by" the "systems of control". That goes on in every enterprise of capitalism, from plywood mills to slave labour agricultural enterprises, with which I am more familiar.

Continued next post...

Continued from previous post...

The systems of control can be and is largely effective, but it is never complete to creative minds and resisting spirits. And that is as true for journalists as ranch hands or green chain board pullers-, or even teachers. (wink, wink)

All of which, however, manifests a need that working people, be they journalists or ranch hands again, be "brought into" the systems of direction, management, ownership and control of ALL existing capitalist enterprises. For existing capitalist enterprises, as much as the State enterprises of the old USSR, even unionized enterprises, need to be opened up to worker AND community influence, management and direction-, including media and their policy directorship and editorial policy setting boards etc.

You want balance sdgreen, neutrality and democracy? I agree. Let's start at the base. Let's begin by initiating a process to "democratize" the entire economic plant and facilities of society, including media and educational institutions, at the levels of ownership, management and boards of directors, for starters, at least, of the major dominant "corporate" ones-, including, as I say, Big Media, publicly funded medical institutions and education.

Only then will we begin to really get at these problems that flow out of a major "power imbalance" within extant capitalist society, including education, of everything from inequity in terms of access to and dissemination of information and ideas, to unfair total economic product share distribution, power distribution and poverty etc.

The problem doesn't lie in students accessing picket lines, or even in the intent of journalists etc., but within the nature and practice of the very base of society; ownership, control and influence over the economy, and all the infrastructure such as media and education etc. that flows out of that.

Democracy? You want real democracy?

Bring it on.

Do I detect a sudden lack of enthusiasm? :-D

Remember Max Headroom? I think it survived most of a season back in '87-'88. I as amazed that it survived that long as it was so blasphemous. From here

http://www.maxheadroom.com/mh_episode_01.html

is a quote that opitomizes the show/what we are talking about.

Max: "I had to spend a little time recently with a parrot. (It's true.) I won't tell you why, but what amazes me is why anybody would want to spend any time at all sitting at home teaching a bird to talk - I mean, what's wrong with the rest of the family, huh? And of course they teach it something really interesting like, 'Who's a pretty boy'"
This is the telefilm closing-credits music. (WARNING: 780k)
End credits music, with Max: "Parrots are only one rung above politicians, though. You'll always know when they're lying: their lips move."

...further, to this comment, and I know that most, if not all posters, on this thread, are in agreement, when I suggest that if NAFTA is not abrogated soon, we will be in danger of losing our precious public school system, "ala privatization", not to mention other facets of our distinctive society! This is the "hidden agenda" of the Libs and the BC Business Council! (across Canada, as well).

Interesting to watch this gov't squirm while trying not to appear to be doing so.

What? No jail terms? No fimes? Yup.... and no general strike......yet.

Coyote says

But Coyote, does the above work? There are not too many large companies where we any success.
Can you name one or two?

The grand socialist experiment failed failed miserably, since the 'collective' failed to look at the real picture and only followed the obligatory 5 year plan. Plants produced goods that nobody wanted as the objective was to employ people only.

I submit, there will always be the Leader class and there will always be the worker class no matter what we do.

The only advantage of having 'worker' class folks on the Board of Directors (or whatever you want to call it) is to espouse reality back to the workers. That is their demands are ok or not.

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2003/5/lie-greenberg.asp

Here's an article that addresses some of these things and how thorny it can get. It's pretty cool because at the end there's an interesting twist.

His original version would have annoyed me because I would think that he was inserting slurs re the dems deliberately, or unconsciously to please his editor. His views are slightly more moderate than mine, but they talk about some of the problems and it's two years old. Perhaps he would feel differently. The NYTimes is going through a lot of strife right now over similar things.

By the way, I did watch most of the newscast tonight, Stump and I thought it very fair.

Blessings

...he would feel differently now.

And have you noticed how the braunshirts have suddenly fallen silent here. Perhaps they are just dumbfounded at suddenly how fragile and nervous looking their political uberfuhrers are.

Check the eyes of these political talking heads, darting about, looking nervous, with their words falling all over themselves. The cockiness is suddenly less sure of itself.

Yes, they and the ruling class they speak for have power. But even as the Kremlin found out, no one's power is absolute for all time.

All power is capable of being challenged by an alternative power, such as that represented by the trade union movement-, if they do not falter or lose their courage and will to win.

Yes, the braunshirts are suddenly near speechless, and the silence tells its own story.

Maintain the pressure. Keep the job actions rolling. And prepare the General Strike now, in the event it will be needed to wrestle our enemies to the ground.

A faint heart never fair maiden won. :-)

I take that as a definite lack of enthusiasm for democracy, sdgreen. :-)

This has been an impressive thread, folks.

Many thanks to Lynn, Redrivergirl, Coyote, Stump et al for your thoughtful, articulate and enlightening comments.

Heck, sdgreen even chipped a few balls onto the fairway. Thanks for that.

Does anybody know where Ronny and Nemesis went? Licking some tender wounds no doubt.

By the way, Nemesis, how's the program going? You'd better get cracking on that epic novel I assigned you.

Don't make me have to come over there and kick your ass...

Good evening juskatladude - you wrote:

"So, I will throw it out for discussion - what is the baseline for deciding if either side "wins" this "hockey game". Does 0 - 0 - 2% pay raise constitute a win? Does getting amendments to the School Act but nothing embedded in the Collective Agreement constitute a win? Let's hear your views".

My impression is that this is coming to an end. This is just my opinion based on the following observations:

(1) whatever critics may say, the BCTF is not run by nihlistic idiots. They had goals in mind, and they knew the consequences going in. As satisfying as it might be for opponents of the liberals, their goals could not have included kicking the government's teeth in as a subject precedent to ending the strike. They had to have had reasonable "war aims" as the expression used to be... I'm thinking they still have those goals in mind.

(2) Although the government repeats time and time again that they won't negotiate, it is clear that they ARE negotiating - thru Ready, thru Sinclair - and thru the media. Wages, working conditions, changes to the school act are now on the table. They weren't 4 weeks ago. There wasn't even a table four weeks ago! But of course the government must continue the "no negotiting " thing because of the liberals "profound respect for the rule of law". I have some sympathy for the government's awkwardness here. Such is the nature of corners...

(3) Public opinion must have shocked Victoria throughout this dispute. I read the Globe this morning: the editorial said that "only" 47% of polled British Columbian supported contempt of the court order, although a larger number was pro teacher. 47% support breaking the law on this issue? I have no idea what the poll results would have been in Russia before the October revolution, but I'm guessing it wouldn't have been as high as 47% in favour of disobeying the law! This is a very frightening number for any government they seeks to continue governing. ( I can't believe I pay to subscribe to this rag... it's my guilt money for having paid for the National Post to be home delivered for a time...)

(4) The optimal conditions for best possible settlement exist NOW and logic and common sense suggest that a deal will be found, with face savings provisions for a defeated government, before Thursday night. I think you can expect to see changes to the school act re: class size and working conditions, a new commitment to arbitration for dispute resolution, and something like 15% over three years starting in the spring - provided it is clearly "understood" none of this resulted from a goverment backing down in the face of a strike.

I'm hoping the government will learn restraint as a result of this experience of pure power politics. I suspect the BC Fed will also want some assurances about collective bargaining to come, and some house cleaning abvout outstanding issues like settling the lawsuits involving the HEU, and also maybe the prosecutors - although they aren't Fed members. (They became fellow travellers today though!)

This wil be a "win" if it happens- and I think it will happen soon. The brinksman will get to yes. No one will be permitted to describe it as such but it will be a victory - look for the repressed smiles on Simms face... and the frown on the faces of the humbled bullies... I have my fingers crossed.

Thanks for giving us a second chance redrivergirl! As the station's resident bike-ridin' enviro-nutter I promise to keep 'em honest as best I can.

"I submit, there will always be the Leader class and there will always be the worker class no matter what we do."

There will always be leaders. There will always be workers. But, I challenge you sdgreen to explain to anyone's satisfaction why they must come from a particular class. Plenty of folks start blue collar and end up running for and winning political office. And do a helluva job of it too, when they remember what it's like to be a little guy/gal.

As to students and protest.... We let recent high school graduates carry guns and kill for us, I don't know why anyone over the age of twelve can't express an opinion on less deadly issues.

"All power is capable of being challenged by an alternative power, such as that represented by the trade union movement-, if they do not falter or lose their courage and will to win."

I don't think it's an overstatement to say we may be witnesses to a watershed moment. I hope the 'people' realize that they DO have the power and that governments don't rule us, they rule for us. But as Coyote has said, we can't consider this the final move... it's a battle we'll always fight.

This civil disobedience resonates with the early Trade Union battles in Canada and elsewhere.

I am uplifted by the BCTF and supportive Unions' drawing a line in the sand, as I had lately become over-heartsick at the trampling that our liberties in BC have been given by this cold and uncaring Government.

It's about time someone stood up to these corprados and their catamites!

pkelly wrote....

Excellent comment. Many people change their ideological views several times during their lives.

Take Patrick Moore for example. From Greenpeace to Forest Alliance Errrrr, ugh.... maybe not a wonderful example. But he gives the far right hope!

Anyways, being exposed to issues and choosing a side is all part of the learning experience. We all hold onto certain values as we enter adulthood, but yes, those values change rapidly during our twenties.

If the "leftist BCTF" have that much power in shaping the views of the young people they work with, then they deserve a much bigger raise than they are asking for.

Nah! Really... who can truly get inside the head of an adolescent?

Does it ever occur to any of you teacher supporter's that you indeed might be getting manipulted by an arm of the NDP.
The timing of the BCTF to pick this fight and the way they throw our children onto the front lines so quickly, while sounding-off that they were FORCED into this would indicate that the bigger game is in preparation for the next election and overthrow of this government.

Time to smoke Sara MacIntyre out of her hole.

Sara MacIntyre and the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation are the public sector's biggest enemy, and they must be smoked out of their holes.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation states that they are a non-profit, non-partisan, advocacy organization funded by free-will contributions.

They are actually nothing more than a deceptively named promoter of corporate interests that constantly dump on the men and women who deliver public services.

They are still trying to destroy the HEU, even though they lost a few thousand workers to privatization, and took a 15% loss in pay.

Sara MacIntyre started attacking the HEU with an early May 2004 radio advertising blitz vowing "it's time for a big reality check at the Hospital Employees' Union," as the Canadian Taxpayers Federation attempted to drum up plaintiffs to add to a class-action legal suit.

"Technically, all you need is two individuals," said MacIntyre, "and of course, what our legal counsel suggests is that once you have the suit certified by the court, you'll see a number of individuals getting in
touch."
______________________________________________
On February 15, 2005, labour relations board associate chair Michael Fleming ruled the HEU breached part five of the labour relations code when they mounted a political protest against the provincial government in 2004, essentially organizing what amounted to an illegal strike.

That ruling was sought by five men whose legal fees were covered by Sara MacIntyre and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The men were represented at the board by Bruce Hallsor of Crease, Harman and Company fame.
______________________________________________
Bruce Hallsor is the past president of the Victoria-Beacon Hill provincial Liberal constituency association.

Bruce Hallsor is the vice-president of the federal Conservative Saanich-Gulf Islands constituency association.

Bruce Hallsor is a former Canadian Alliance election candidate.

Non-partisan my ass!
______________________________________________
During the union's strike, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation ran a series of radio advertisements "aimed at providing information on the HEU's contract and inviting patients to 'strike back' by contacting the CTF and
organizing a class action suit.

They are doing exactly the same thing with the teachers.

Even though there were private talks going on today in hopes of settling this dispute, Sara MacIntyre was crowing on CKNW about her class action lawsuit against the teachers, and was inviting everyone in radioland to join in.

Lets stop this crap now.

sdgreen posts re Coyote's statement that there should be worker and community representation etc on company board of directors:

Bleat on Davey-boy, bleat on!

I think, John has probably a fairly accurate assessment of about where this particular class struggle is likely to settle out. (I'm less certain we are close yet, with Jinny complaining this morning that while the unions have already made some concessions, the government has not yet moved any, on the partiular demands of the union.)

What says to me that you will be about right however, in terms of what is likely to be actually achieved and how it will look, which I consider a bare bones minimum, is that while the labour movement has demonstrated some residual ability to "scrap" when backed into a corner, objectively, its strength has been diminished still, over the years since Operation Solidarity 1983. And there remains still very much in place, a... ohhhh, lets call it a rather generalized sense of community malaise, or even defeatismthat anything can be significantly changed vis a vis the State and the direction of capitalist development currently underway.

I wish that weren't the case, and it does look sometimes like a labour and community sense of solidarity might just spark back to life, and be capable of challenging capitalist development policy, but not near where it needs to be yet, I think. Which means that I think there is still more pain to be experienced out there, unfortunately, before there is the level of anger that is needed. And anger has its appropriate place in the scheme of things. (There is still too much preoccupation with "individualist" rather than "class" solutions to their problems and those of society, such as it is the nature of The System to prefer.)

Like I've said before, more than a little of the responsibility for that is rooted in the failures of trade union leadership, gone on for a very long time, AND in the "postwar good times" level of diminished political understanding of the rank and file itself, (for somebody voted this Neoconazi Liberal government into power), which is the intellectual deficit the working class itself has to overcome going into this. That sounds snooty and some elitist I know, on my part, but is still a more or less accurate assessment-, in my view.

Meaning there is "unlikely" to be any great change any time soon. There is much more basic spadework that needs to be done yet, and more internal deterioration to go on within the conditions of capitalism-, which this Neconazi Liberal State, both provincially AND federally IS working and developing additional "working class control" policy on. (sdgreen is a good measure of the thinking going on there, in all likelihood.)

The struggle continues, no doubt, and a victory of sorts can still be pulled out of the bag here, but it is unlikely our fullest visions of what we would like to see come out of this are going to all be realized. Though I do not think we should be acting on that as a working presumption just yet. (Which is why I hesitate to even advance my critique.) And hopefully, I will be wrong. That is simply my hypothesis. (Jinny clearly has the will and the resolve. I'm just a little worried she may be too alone up there in the corridors of power, with her resolve.)

Continued next post...

From previous post...

All that said, now specifically addressing sdgreen, though I should have probably mixed it with you more fully last night, I disagree with your view of working class potential over the longer haul from here.

As Scylla correctly points out, there are many examples of working class power already in place in many parts of the world, even within capitalist institutions, in generally a junior and subservient position to Capital, no doubt, but where the working class is strong and has the will, with further development over time, of its overall level of understanding, indicates the direction of future development, I think. (And neither of us, though we have diametrically opposite views on this, can know for 100% certain. Future development remains to make clear which of us is more or less right.)

In my view, nothing remains fixed and static forever. Were it the case, we would yet be locked in slavery or even further back in time, and no capitalist class would have emerged to dominate society out of feudalism. For there was a time, not that long ago actually, until the English Civil War of 1642-49, when it ever looked like there would be any other kind of society, ruled by any other class than the landed aristocracy and its monarchist system. No one ever would have thought that Cromwell and his mercantile/merchant class would have ever emerged to become the actual aristocratic ruling class in English society.

The point being, like rivulets of running water and wind, time and development does change people and the face of the planet, and the clash of classes and other social forces does change the face and character of human society. Has already.

And the only class force locked in competition with the currently ruling capitalist class is the working class. And we all know, really, or we should, that the slow one now can be later to win. The capitalist class proved that themselves, in their struggle with the old feudal ruling class.

If we live long enough, either of us, we shall see, eh? :-) Though more likely, we are looking at a longer time frame than that. Yet, we can dream.

Which should read, of course. " ...Cromwell and his mercantile/merchant class would have ever emerged to become the actual ruling class over aristocratic English society."

Vince Ready has just declared a stalemate, and will be handing down a non binding recommendation this afternoon.

Jinny Sims was looking pretty tired and discouraged on the news this morning. I guess union intimidation is hard work.

So go ahead unions, have your pathetic little 'days of action'. This province is tired of being run by big labour, and finally we have a gov't with the balls to stand up to the union's crap.

Enjoy your day in court tomorrow BCTF!

Just like you quoted above bulltoss, "it's time for a big reality check at the Hospital Employees' Union," and the same goes for the BCTF.

The Canadian Taxpayers Fed is standing up for the majority of people in BC who ARE NOT in a public sector union and are sick of unions' whiny illusion of entitlement.

The class action suits are great and showing the unions that BC is sick of their intimidation!

Facilitator declares stalemate in strike

The BCTF said it is lending "a more creative, problem-solving approach to the current dispute," by taking the unusual step of publicly releasing its proposals.

Sims called on government representatives to work through the process with Ready in the same spirit of co-operation.

"This is not the time for threats, inflexibility or posturing,'' Sims said.

"In order to break this impasse, because the government seems very entrenched, we have made considerable moves.

"This is a huge compromise from the teachers.''

Sims showed signs of exhaustion, trailing off during her speech and losing her train of thought.

Sims continued to vow to fight for a fair deal.

"I will not be recommending a resolution to our members that does not have respect and dignity for our members, that does not have our members walking into the classroom with their heads held high."

1:08 PM Thursday

Jim Sinclair has just announced that there will be NO job action coming from the BCFED tomorrow.

From the best of my observation, it is my opinion, judging from their actions, that the Canadian Taxpayers Federation seems t be a fascist, dishonest, pressure group acting on behalf of what are possibly, dishonourable, cheats and liars, seeking to destroy our society for personal gain. BC's is led by a pathetic seeming person who probably wouldn't amount to a pile of beans if she wasn't' on the neo-con bandwagon receiving inordinate media attention and promotion for a less than mediocre performance.

There was a name for these types in prewar Germany.

Jim Sinclair was on CKNW, and said that because the BCTF will be taking a vote tomorrow on Vince Ready's non binding recommendations, the BCFED would be taking no action tomorrow.

BUT

An hour and a half later, the radio station phoned the BCTF, and they said that NO vote was planned and that Jim Sinclair misspoke.

We went through this crap with the HEU.

What in the hell is going on?

An hour and a half later, the radio station phoned the BCTF, and they said that NO vote was planned and that Jim Sinclair misspoke.

We went through this crap with the HEU.

What in the hell is going on?" wrote bulltoss.

Which is why I have said, this is the place where everybody has to pay close attention here. If there are games going to be played, or betrayals to go down, this is the point where they will begin to manifest themselves. (You teacher's help keep Jinny strong. She may come under pressure from more than one quarter, and it can get awful lonely out there on the limb, if that's where she finds herself.And I hope not.)

If a split of teachers ranks is going to occur, it will be around this vote. There are always those who will buy anything, and there are those who will always found wanting in the courage department. Support each other, in keeping each other strong.

On the other hand, it may be a good deal. Let's hope. It will be your collective decision.

5:07PM BCTV News
Debra Hope:

"Mr. Sinclair, earlier today you said that the BCTF would be taking a Vote"

Jim Sinclair:

"Well, that is what I assumed. I think that you know, I don't know, but I don't think that people should be losing a day's pay, if there is a vote going on"
______________________________________________
Jinny Sims has just made it clear on the radio that her executive will analyse and access the recommendations BEFORE deciding whether to take it to the membership for a vote.

Jim Sinclair called the media this afternoon; the media didn't call him.

It looks like Jim Sinclair is trying to put a lot of pressure on the BCTF to settle this by saying that there would be a vote tomorrow.

The BC Federation of Labour was forced to act in this dispute, but it looks like Jim Sinclair was dragged into a fight that he never wanted, and now he is on TV, denying that there was anything planned for Friday in the first place. He's blaming it on bad communication.

I need a beer.

Otherwise known as, assuming Sinclair is being accurately reported here, and the media is not above its own games, "the old softshoe shuffle". The Fed can do that one in their sleep, heading for the exit.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so goddamned cynical. I've been around these guys too damned much, for too bloody long.

Go ahead, have a beer, Bulltoss. Have two. :-D

I'm having a glass of wine and I am looking for the chocolate...it must be here somewhere...

....because the union is about the people silly, not egos. It's all about the workers.

The unions and the BCFed are just corporations that sell memberships. They play the media and public opinion, and the executive is looking out for themselves. Tough pill to swallow bulltoss, but just wash it down with that beer...

I was just reviewing the photos in this story. It is truly frightening to think that these people are educating our children. These people are trying to instill their socialist ideals in our kids. Scary stuff.

"Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted".
Vladimir Lenin

Are you sure that teachers are socialists, Poindexter?

I've been working with them for years, and can testify that they are the most conservative people on Earth.

By the way, you need a history lesson: Lenin's seeds were mostly uprooted in 1924.

BLINK BLINK BLINK

ROSA THE COW BLINKED

After all the rhetoric, "Whatever it takes as long as it takes......I am not afraid of jail"

What a stupid liar and blowhard she is. Typical socialist, full of rhetoric, sloganeering, and jingoism, short on following through.

Nothing but hollow threats

I laugh in her general direction

Freeloading CUPE member, I suspect you are the type of person who laughs at car accidents.

You must be extemely popular among your workmates.

I'm going to guess that you have two-very different faces. I suspect you are one of those blowhards at work who egg their fellow workers to rebel or to simply cause problems.

That is a pretty ugly mug, but cute in comparison to the snidely, cowardly view I grasp from reading your empty rhetoric above.

Do you slink from home to work? Do your children know how much of a friggin' contradiction you are?

They will obviously benefit from having real human adults in their midst once again as soon as the public school reopen.

Hey, Poin: It was the Catholic Church who wanted all the little children.

Hey poindexter and freethinking cupe member. Do you people have a socialist medical card in your back pocket? Then you must be socialists.