Topic
Love or hate the new look, but don't count on the revamped BC Place for an economic boost.
BC Place reborn: source of civic pride or a waste of money? Photo by Judy B via Your BC: The Tyee's Photo Pool.
Squint at that new roof over BC Place and it looks like our outgoing premier's perfect legacy.
Finally, the moment arrives.
It's Sunday, a quarter after one in the afternoon, and BC Place is about to open its new sunroof. Slowly, the circular fabric roof is drawn inward on steel cables, seeming to shrivel beneath a sun miraculously exposed. An aching guitar anthem blasts from Volkswagon-sized speakers that hang above the field.
The crowd, suddenly finding itself out of doors -- or at least nearly so -- cheers. It's a momentous occasion for the 21,000 in attendance. Surely, many have come to see the game, but the main attraction is the venue: BC Place, new and improved.
Unless you happen to be the owner of a major league sports franchise, it's hard not to raise your eyebrows at the price tag affixed to the renovation project. Coming from a government still patting itself on the back for the fiscal discipline of its jobs plan, $563 million does seem like a lot of money.
But for those of us who neither live in downtown Vancouver nor have any interest in live sports, arena-rock shows, or seeing the Pope speak during his next visit to Canada, there is the economic windfall to consider. Never mind this week's collective action vote by the current stadium staff, the new facility is supposed to create jobs, revitalize neighborhoods, and boost incomes.
It's the same argument that has been made in almost every major city in North America since the 1970s. Singing the economic praises of the new arena on Tuesday morning, the argument was made again by Vancouver architect and real estate developer Michael Geller.
Speaking on CKNW's The Bill Good Show, Geller said: "What I'm troubled by are those people saying that we shouldn't have been building this, that we should have been putting that money into housing in the Downtown Eastside. And to that I say, absolutely not. Yes, the taxpayers foot the bill, and the taxpayers receive the benefits in terms of the economic life of the city."
If you build it, they will come
If you find any of what Geller said surprising, you haven't been paying attention to what the stadium's biggest supporters have said over the past three years.
"The stadium is going to draw a great deal of interest from groups around the world that will want to utilize the facility," says David Podmore. Podmore is the chair of B.C. Pavilion Corporation (PavCo), the crown corporation responsible for designing, building, and operating the stadium.
As he describes it, the new facility will act as a money magnet: local sports fans, international tourists, business investment, and international rockstars and conventioneers will all come running to Downtown Vancouver for a piece of the action.
"We need a facility like this in British Columbia," says Podmore. The only reasonable alternative -- building an entirely new stadium -- would be much more expensive than $563 million.
In total, PavCo and the provincial government estimate that the stadiums will generate anywhere from an additional $40 million to $100 million of economic activity every year.
All things considered then, Podmore says, we're getting BC Place at a deal.
An unlikely unanimity
Optimistic though stadium builders and boosters may be, the academic literature on publicly funded stadiums presents a much less compelling case.
"It's always about how these projects are going to create thousands of jobs and raise incomes and raise tax revenue," says Brad R. Humphreys, a professor of economics at the University of Alberta. "In fact, there's no evidence that professional sports facilities generate new jobs or new income in a city."
Humphreys isn't alone in this assessment.
"Few fields of empirical economic research offer virtual unanimity of findings," write economists John Siegfried and Andrew Zimbalist in their study of forty-six major league facilities across the United States. "Yet, independent work on the economic impact of stadiums and arenas has uniformly found that there is no statistically significant positive correlation between sports facility construction and economic development."
The argument goes like this: the money that locals spend on sporting and music events at a stadium necessarily comes at the expense of money they would have spent elsewhere. Likewise, the $563 billion the province has poured into BC Place could have been directed towards other projects that might have improved productivity or basic living standards -- say, public transportation, education, or to pick another random example, housing in the Downtown Eastside.
Looking at stadiums in particular, the return one can expect in jobs and additional spending from every dollar spent on them is "lower than it would be for other entertainment activities like bars or movie theaters or restaurants," says Humphreys. That's because, relative to their size and expense, stadiums don't tend to employ very many people directly. On top of that, sports teams and concessionaire companies are more likely than local businesses to spend their money outside the city, state, or province.
As for the claim that the stadium will attract international entertainment acts, conventions, and tourist dollars, Humphreys is skeptical. Vancouver already has considerable international draw, he says. There's only so much room for improvement.
"It's Vancouver, it's not Saskatoon."
'Faith-based governing'
There are exceptions to every rule. It is possible that Vancouver's BC Place will buck the trend and actually pay for itself.
But according to NDP tourism, culture and arts critic Spencer Chandra Herbert, without a BC Place business case or market study available to the public, we have no way to evaluate the optimism of the project's proponents.
"You may attract more shows and conventions, but then again you might not," says Herbert, who represents Vancouver-West End. "Optimism is great, but that optimism needs to be based on a market study that looks at all the possibilities. We've got to get beyond faith-based governing."
A spokesperson for the Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation, which oversees PavCo, says that while the provincial Treasury Board did approve the crown corporation's business case before construction began, because that document is considered to be advice to the cabinet, it is confidential.
As to the accusation, also made by Herbert, that the government is trying to "fool the public" by calling the $563 million "on budget" when a Jan. 2009 capital project plan projected a cost of $365 million, the same ministry spokesperson said that the earlier figure was only a preliminary estimate.
Don't call it a stimulus
While the economics of a project like BC Place may be ambiguous to say the least, it's easy to see the appeal for politicians. Grand, iconic, and promising all the plebeian appeal of professional sports, stadiums are exactly the high-profile spending projects that induce what former Vancouver city councillor Gordon Price calls a "suspension of ideological consistency" among elected representatives.
Never mind the fiscal conservatism of the party in power, says Price. "No politician would put themselves in the position of having seemingly caused the winning team to leave town."
Put less cynically, a newly renovated BC Place may not make money, but plenty of valuable public projects don't.
"Having a really nice stadium might be important for civic pride or the sense of community in Vancouver," says Humphreys. This might seem an oddly qualitative argument to hear from an economist, but this reminder to consider the "intangible factors" of stadiums shows up in almost every academic study on the subject.
Just as long as you don't call it a stimulus, says Humphreys, value the stadium however you like. "Maybe some people think that's worth half a billion dollars. That's not for me to decide."
In other words, what's true of every other major North American city will be true of Vancouver. No matter the economics, the ultimate value of BC Place's half a billion dollar makeover won't be assessed inside a balance sheet, but a voting booth. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Dan the socialist
1 year ago
The Lions and Whitecaps for
The Lions and Whitecaps for starters would of been better off staying at Empire Field than playing in a half to two third empty stadium once the novelty of the new roof wears off. Just use BC Place for playoff games like the Montreal Alouettes do.
To bad the Whitecaps were not allowed to build their own non tax payer funded stadium...
NFL and MLB will never ever come to Vancouver either.
The only time that stadium will be full is the Grey Cup (and not all have been sold out in Vancouver either) and maybe Lions Playoff games. We really do not need a stadium that big. There is convention centre and GM Place for trade shows etc.
Empire field should be 're done' so it can expand to 40 -45,000 for MLS/CFL playoff games. Add a few more washrooms and larger dressing rooms. That is all the city needs. (For parking run more shuttles or bring back Trams or LRT to it)
Putting something new (roof) on something old makes no sense either.
So many in Vancouver think they and the city are 'special' 'elitist' 'big time' when it is fairly obvious that is not the case.
jimmy_laroux
1 year ago
Great article.
And of course this white elephant just happens to put money into the pockets of the BC construction industry, comprising some of the BC Liberal's most generous donors.
Fish-counter
1 year ago
This Nanaimo resident says: it is a waste of money
But I am neither a sports fan nor likely to ever set foot in the new stadium. These structures do not create wealth, they merely transfer it. The fans flock in, pay exhorbitant ticket prices to watch overpaid athletes play a silly game, then they go home, hundreds of dollars out of pocket. Not one penny is created in that entire process, and neither are any goods or services of any lasting value.
Sports arenas should be built by the teams themselves, or not at all. Public money should be spent on public projects, not on entertainment for a few. The primary beneficiaries of this extravagance are the team owners and the athletes. Everyone else is a loser.
OK, so I missed the advertising revenue from the broadcasts; why doesn't that money build the stadium, then?
There is a long list of to do's that should have a higher priority than the new roof:
1. Quake-resistant schools for our kids.
2. Job-creating industries such as the "Value-Added" the logging industry never got.
3. Ferries that are appropriately-sized and built in BC, that actually work.
4. Funding for the promotion of eco-tourism, to provide work for people who live in the hinterlands, where the eco-tourist jobs are.
5. Almost anything else you can think of that isn't just a subsidy for two dozen fat-cats.
Fish-counter
1 year ago
6. Secondary sewage treatment for all five Vancouver plants
That is a biggy in my book. Vancouver and Victoria are in violation of the Fisheries Act and have been for 150 years. It is truly disgusting that any city in BC can discharge products of the human hole into rivers and the ocean without being charged.
Booker
1 year ago
Eye-sore
They managed to take the ugliest stadium in Canada and make it even uglier. What an architectural achievement! They should have torn it down and started from scratch -- now Vancouver has to live with this piece of crap for another 30 to 50 years.
raging senior
1 year ago
BC PLACE ROOF
The stadium will entertain Vancouver and the lower mainland, people in the interior would have drive 500kms or fly for a $500 airfare and a hotel room for two days, although we will pay the same taxes for the motly dozen that the stadium will enrich.
mary jane
1 year ago
wasting $$
Not only are fancy sports complexes a waste of tax dollars they distract people from the more serious issues that need to be addressed. If the issues of a failing health care system, education or poverty were given the same amount of money things would be much healthier in BC. Many people get caught up in the pleasures and never see the suffering right before their eyes.
Vox.Pop
1 year ago
BC Corporatism
This illustrates the type of Big Corporate thinking that lies behind every major expenditure of BC Corp (the government of BC ruled by the BC Liberals). Only by spending mega-bucks with the "Friends of Gordo" will BC's economy grow. Oh, and let's not forget that "this will generate thousands of jobs" and "it will be good for families".
The torrent of political garbage just keeps piling up deeper & deeper.
cityzen
1 year ago
We're responsible
We hired professional politicians to represent our interests so that we could focus on daily living. Consistently, these career politicians, for the most part, have failed to represent constituents, taking backroom bribes instead and making self-serving decisions to advance their own careers. We get stadium deals which line a few pockets and suck our coffers dry. Yet, being lazy creatures, we keep supporting our useless political construct, idly complaining that things never change for the better. We waste our own hard-earned money and limited land on mostly-empty stadiums, steeped in media-manipulated patriotic fervour like we live in ancient Rome. In reality, TV and the internet are our public stadiums now...well reality TV certainly is. The riots have shown us the predictable outcome of too many drunks, riled up, gathered in one place - they wreak havoc. That was never good for Rome, and it's not good for us. We're responsible. We must take the time to roll up our sleeves and fix our broken governments, perhaps get rid of them altogether. If all of BC is paying for this boondoggle, then all of BC should have had a say in whether or not it was constructed in the first place. I highly doubt anyone in Trail, for example, cares about the new roof or really wants to pay for it with their taxes. At least the French got Versailles out of being ripped off, before they started chopping heads - we got an ugly tarantula.
sthrendyle
1 year ago
been through all of this, before...
Somewhere in the offices of either Canada Wide Publishing (Westworld), or TransCon (Vancouver Magazine) - there will be a feature story by Sean Rossiter - still one of this city's finest writers - that 'investigated' just how much the ORIGINAL BC Place needed to be utilized in order to justify its price tag. His answer - as I recall - was that the the math would not work if Vancouver did not get a major league baseball team, which of course it did not. BC Place no longer holds major trade events (they have all decamped for the glitzier Trade and Convention Centre... and just sits there! "Arena rock" is freaking dead, and B List pro sports like MLS and CFL will NEVER bring in the 60,000 plus fans that they did in the mid 80s. It should have been torn down after the Games and turned into condos, IMHO.
Skywalker
1 year ago
Question
Does anyone know if BC Place has ever made any money or broken even? If not then isn't spending more on it just as bad as Fast Ferries?
miguel
1 year ago
Casino
This was going to be part of the redevelopment of the old casino on False Creek. Gambling income was going to be used as the excuse for the expenditure.
pianosaurus rex
1 year ago
Some comments about the comments
Dan the Socialist is correct;
The Whitecaps and the Lions had a more intimate and much better venue at Empire field; I attended all of the Lions games there and the feel of being outside in a small venue where you are within 30 feet of the bench was an experience not available in any other pro sports league.
This fact was even noted by the head coach and the administration of the Lions as being a unique experience.
Fish-counter;
Unfortunately applies misguided logic to slam certain pro sports for being the prima donna’s that Corporate America’s sports are; pro baseball, basketball, American football.
“The fans flock in, pay exorbitant ticket prices to watch overpaid athletes play a silly game, then they go home, hundreds of dollars out of pocket.”
This is not an accurate statement when referring the MLS or the CFL:
Two season tickets on the fifty-five yard line at a BC Lions game will cost a total of $1200…approximately $60 per seat per game.
In the CFL at one time, Casey Printers, when playing for Hamilton, was the highest paid player in the CFL at $500,000 per year. Most of the journeymen linemen make 50-60k and have a regular job during the week.
Marquee players such as Geroy Simon make 120-150k per season.
The MLS tickets are even less for premium seating, and the players make less.
By comparison one season ticket for the Canucks in the reds is $4500.00-$5000.00.
So perhaps it better to direct the anger at the appropriate places; it is not the Lions or the Whitecaps that ordered the new roof; sure the place needed a roof but not a Rolls Royce roof….this stadium was built as part of the’86 Expo venture. The only thing wrong was the Teflon was old and required replacement; the rest of the roof structure was solid.
In order for BC Place stadium to break even during a CFL game 45 thousand seats need to be filled. This is also the reason that many of the games are blacked out locally, as the stadium rarely reaches attendance levels such as this for CFL. So in fact without the attendance levels where they should be the Lions rarely break even on games played in BC Place.
Millionaire industrialists like David Braley rarely purchase sports teams to make money; as a matter of fact most pro sports team owners purchase a sports team to generate negative income.
pianosaurus rex
1 year ago
A little more
As far as the comments about sewage treatment back in the early ‘80’s some 500 yards or more of sewage pipe was purchased by the provincial government of the day for the extension of the outfall from Ogden Point. You can probably still find the pipe today, off a dead end street behind the old Red Lion Inn. I think that is where it is; somewhere between the Tally Ho and the Red Lion anyways…. One of the streets off the triangle of Burnside Rd/ Harriet Rd. /Douglas Street.
roady
1 year ago
the bubble
its a bubble....maybe when it snows like sht
again this year .. they can open it up so the snow dont cave it in again
mcdull
1 year ago
Vancouver Place
The rest of BC couldn't care less about Vancouver Place. We just want schools, roads repaired and hospitals that work and are clean.
M. Kippenberger
1 year ago
Very Little Architectural Merit
One discussion that I have heard little about so far is concerning the atrocity that this roof represents to the skyline of Vancouver. The architectural consideration and the approval of this design is neglectful. The design of this monster is motivated by a simple desire to be the biggest at a dumb capitalist race and the architectural merit is therefore very little. The architecture firm that is responsible for the roof should be embarrassed. I can't wait until the reviews come in.
GeeHan
1 year ago
I like it!!
Well for all you naysayers out there, there is just as many of us out there that appreciate the re-vamp. Yes, it cost a lot of money, but it was needed. The City of Vancouver and CN Rail are the one's that screwed the pooch on this one. Because of CN's lack of willingness to work on land transfer agreements with the City and Graeme Kerfoot, we missed out on a privately funded waterfront stadium above the rail tracks in DT Van. That would've been the best option in my opinion. Regardless, that time has come and gone and we still need a major stadium.
In my opinion, the only place for it is exactly where it is. Empire Field, as nice as it was, is way out of bounds. This stadium is downtown, central, and along major rapid transit routes.
As for not creating any economic benefits, I cannot begin to understand how these glowing academics can't find a way to find the economic benefits. Everyone knows that people drive cars, pay for parking, pay for drinks, merchandise, hotel rooms and food. Times that by 40,000 and you're starting to get a pretty good economic multiplier. Not too mention the sense of community sports and 'togetherness' can create. Sometimes you need to spend some money on that type of infrastructure to ensure you or anybody who wants to, can enjoy getting together with some other British Columbians and have a good time.
So although I can understand peoples outrage at this project, it was needed, it was expensive and it's done now. So get over it and drive around those potholes in your local community.
And so you know I live in PG and have supported this project from the get go. And it looks great.
Fish-counter
1 year ago
Pianosaurus: Thanks for the correction but professional athletes
make far too much money, considering they are just entertainers. Some "only earn $50,000 a year so they work full time". that has me in tears, for sure.
Why then are the team owners asking for public subsidies every second year, threatening to pull out of town if they don't get funded?
Don't get me wrong; there is a key place for spectator sports, but when any athlete makes over $1 million per year, that is just plain WRONG!
When hockey players are suffering concussions in the name of sport, it is no longer sport but government-sanctioned violence. There is no upper limit to the violence once we begin to accept it. Players get knocked senseless and attacked while down on the ice and 18 year-olds die of heart attacks during basketball games on the field in the name of sport? The worst comes when the kids start to copy their heroes.
After the winter olympics and the Stanley Cup riots, I think British Columbians have had it to the gills with this kind of crap.
The bread and circuses gig is coming to an end. Ask the teachers.
Langley
1 year ago
I'm a Lions season ticket holder
From the outset I was against this complete waste of public funds.
Last Saturday my father and I attended the game and by the end of the first quarter I just felt like I was in old BC Place again. I predict it won't be sold out until the Western Final(possible host)and Grey Cup.
If I hear anymore "world-class" or "state-of-the-art" references to the new BC Place I may puke. It cost 500mil+! And the seats aren't even padded?!(a la Arsenal's Emirates Stadium in London)
paisley
1 year ago
Not Thrilled
I can safely say that I am not alone condemning this incredible waste of public funds not to mention I'm tired of subsidizing entertainment for the few.
How about a tax on every ticket to events in Vancouver to cover the cost of using the subsidized transportation infrastructure to sit in the subsidized facility. I guess user pay fees apply to everybody else for just about everything else but not the few that need entertaining in Vancouver.
pianosaurus rex
1 year ago
Agreed Fish-counter
Many pro sports figures make far too much revenue for the sport they play, but I don’t believe the enormous salaries folks object to would be found in the CFL or MLS.
I would agree the salaries paid in NHL, MLB, basketball, and the National Felony League are offensive indeed. 50k per year is peanuts when compared to corporate big league sports.
I have been a Lions season ticket holder since ’85 and never agreed with the move to BC Place, never agreed with the tearing down of that historically significant Empire stadium, and never agreed with the new roof structure the way it has come about.
The Lions and the Whitecaps were perfectly willing to revamp the stadium in Burnaby at Central Park (Vanguard is it called??) and would have been happy to play there too.
The decisions regarding BC place maintenance have never been the responsibility of any of the renters of that venue, and there have been many games played, concerts, home shows, recreational vehicle shows, etc….
If one looks at that new roof objectively, it is easy to see that the original building structure would never have held up to the additional weight of that new installation, so it is a sure bet that probably one third or more of the total cost is was for structural work to support the top heavy building it has become today. So the roof probably was under 200 million; just the cost of the roof…….semantics from Pavco…
Like I stated previously the only thing wrong with the old roof was the Teflon skin was old and subject to tearing. Probably could have been replaced for less than 100 million, just a guess……
Also the entire stadium received new seats; 60,000 of them and taxpayer paid for that too. Why new seats? What was wrong with the old ones?
How about the old disabled section that was taken out so more corporate boxes could be built? What happens to the folks in wheelchairs who have faithfully attended for decades?
Also because this building is not on city land were any seismic upgrades included at the same time as per the city regulations for schools and bridges?
As far as a tax on tickets I believe I do pay tax on the ticket; it is the beloved HST that still seems to be hanging around even though we voted it out…..
I don’t believe for a second that BC Place has ever paid for itself; not once, not ever, will that become a reality.
G West
1 year ago
GeeHan says 'It 'looks' great?'
Next time you're down from Prince George you need to have another look. The view from "up north" may not be too bad - driving north on Cambie or along any of the streets which parallel this erupting carbuncle it gives locals (and visitors) an entirely different impression.
I'll wager that within 20 years the hue and cry in Vancouver will have become, once again, tear this sucker down.
On the other hand, my experience with a good many folks from the interior who come down to Vancouver for a game now and then is that most of the time they're in the 'big smoke' they are pretty thoroughly 'under the influence'.
crankypants
1 year ago
According to David Podmore
According to David Podmore, who was a guest on Christy Clark's radio program last year, BC Place lost $1 million for the most recent year he had records for. Considering that they have had pretty much the same usage for many years now, one can assume that all previous years yielded the same type of losses. Also these losses were based on the old BC Place being utilized over 200 times per year.
Even with the addition of the Whitecaps playing dates, it is unlikely their revenue stream will improve appreciably.
Another thing that needs some explaining is how Winnipeg is in the process of building a new 30,000+ football stadium for about $150 million while we had to pony up $563 million just to renovate an existing structure.
In my opinion, the only thing that would help pay for this expenditure would be if there was ever the chance that major league baseball came to town, but that is a longshot at best as I'm not sure there would be enough of a fan base to support such a venture.
Norman Farrell
1 year ago
Crankypants, consider Podmore's record of accuracy
before you accept the statement that BC Place lost only $1 million. PavCo covers all its losses from taxpayer funds. It operates the Vancouver Convention Center and BC Place and a review of recent audited financial statements show these losses before provincial contributions:
2010: - $61 million
2011: - $45 million
Despite continuing losses, PavCo's senior executives earned handsome "incentive" bonuses as well as pension contributions multiple times more than would be made for most public servants.
BG
1 year ago
Waste of Money
I remember when BC place first opened in the 1980's. News reports at the time stated that the fabric roof had a fixed life and would need to be replaced one day, at a relatively low cost.
The roof should have been replaced with another roof of the same type as originally intended for probably 1/10th the cost of the retractable roof.
David Podmore is full of hot air, he should be replaced.
dave49
1 year ago
What did it really cost?
I'm told the word going around in construction circles is that the actual cost will come in over $800 million. If that is true, it will cement Gordon Campbell's negative legacy.
ShizzleCreek
1 year ago
Great reporting, well-written article.
Love it when the Tyee does stuff like this. Nice research.
zalm
1 year ago
Hard of thinking
Geehan writes:
"As for not creating any economic benefits, I cannot begin to understand how these glowing academics can't find a way to find the economic benefits."
That's because there aren't any. People who spend money on over-priced beer and tickets are supplying money to mostly Eastern-based corporate titans who take money out of BC.
That's money people should have been spending in their home communities on sporting goods, ice time, stuff for their own kids, and beer at their own neighbourhood pubs where the money stays in BC.
You're quite right - no academic has ever found a reasonable correlation between 'spectacle' facilities and economic growth, except for private corporate profits.
ogts
1 year ago
Hard to Argue
with many of the complaints here. I am a Lions Fan, and very much looked forward to the (re)opening night of the new BC Place. Glitches aside, it looked nice, the open air was definitely an improvement over the old stadium, and the scoreboard was incredible. An eyesore on the outside?
Was it worth half a billion, though? Did it look like half a billion, first off--no. Nice, yes, but not half a billion nice.
I worked on top of BC Place when the cables were getting covered in 2006, and spoke to the engineer who had come back to assess the rooftop. He had worked on the original roof, and several of the other stadiums around the world that used the same technology. While the rooftop was past it's prescribed lifetime, by his estimation it was still structurally sound. Of course, the human error of 2007 gave some a much needed solution.
the problem with BC Place was that it was empty almost all of the time. During the time i worked on it, it was used for the home game if scheduled for that week, and on a half tuesday for a media practice. That was it.
I still am looking forward to catching games in it, maybe even some whitecaps matches too; and yes it will help the surrounding downtown core with revenue, no question.
But this was half a billion of provincial, not municipal, funds that were used to finance construction.
If I didn't live here, I'd be pretty pissed off...