The Coming Struggle over Swine Flu Vaccine

Hello, I am the host of the Facing Autism in New Brunswick site referenced in the "Coming Struggle over Swine Flu Vaccine Article".

In the referenced article I noted an absence of information or comment concerning the possibility that the vaccine itself could harm the development of children of women vaccinated while pregnant. This is a concern that has been raised by serious health care professionals including Dr. Bernadine Healy who is a Harvard and Johns Hopkins educated physician and cardiologist and a former head of the National Institutes of Health (NIH)and served as president of the American Red Cross. Dr Healy has stated with reference to the mercury based vaccine preservative thimerosal:

""There is no evidence that removal of thimerosal from vaccines has lowered autism rates. But autism numbers are not precise, so I would say that considerably more research is still needed on some provocative findings. After all, thimerosal crosses the placenta, and pregnant women are advised to get flu shots, which often contain it.""

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/brain-and-behavior/2008/04/10/fighting-the-autism-vaccine-war.html

You can't keep putting

You can't keep putting vaccinations into people every year without accumulating side effects on top of all the pollution and chemical poisoning in their foods, water and air.

We have no intention of getting vaccinated.

Ed Deak.

Mercury militia

Thimerosol does not cause autism. Vaccines don't cause autism. Children get more mercury from the environment in a few hours (not to mention from their mother's milk) than they do from a shot that contains the preservative (which has been removed from most vaccines anyway).

"But mercury compounds are evidently still in flu vaccines, according to the blog Age of Autism, and are therefore responsible for current cases of autism".

You make that sound as if the vaccine/autism link is a fact, when it is a falsehood. This has been so thoroughly disproved that no responsible journalist should even be bringing it up anymore.

Health care professionals are putting their patients at risk by not getting vaccinated, and are in fact, acting unprofessionally.

Ed, vaccines are not chemical toxics.

Check out some data:

http://jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

I know nurses who refuse flu

I know nurses who refuse flu vaccine even though they realize they're putting patients and co-workers at risk. My mother was in one long-term care facility where the staff seemed to take pride in rejecting influenza vaccination. I took my mother to a public flu shot clinic to get her vaccination and she avoided the flu many of the facilities' residents came down with. As far as I can see, the BCNU is not doing a good or even a fair job of educating their membership about vaccines. Have they forgotten that vaccination is one of medicine's biggest success stories?

Booker's Science

Booker said "Thimerosol does not cause autism. Vaccines don't cause autism."

Well, with those declarations from Booker Dr. Healy, Harvard and Johns Hopkins educated physician and cardiologist and a former head of the National Institutes of Health (NIH)and president of the American Red Cross will be comforted. Dr Healy says that the science is not closed on theses issues and more research needs to be done. Dr. Jon Poling a neurologist, a father of an autistic child, and a successful advocate for that child in the US vaccine court, also says that more research on the vaccine autism issues, along with other possible environmental causes of autism needs to be done.

See http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/2009/03/vaccine-autism-war-dr-jon-poling.html

Booker, I'm fully aware what

Booker, I'm fully aware what vaccinations are. Had my share of them as a kid and in the army, also as an orderly in a military hospital for 11 months

What I'm talking about are the accumulated effects of everything piled into human bodies, not even mentioning what the effects of GM seds and foods might be, that nobody has been permitted to investigate. Those who tried have been vilified and destroyed professionally.

As far autism is concerned, I've seen some figures some months ago claiming that some 50 or 60 years ago when stats were first kept, 1 in 40,000 children has been autistic, now the figure is in one in the hundreds and growing?

I don't have the time to search this out right now, but perhaps somebody might have them.

When we look at the horrible cancer, diabetes etc. epidemics, that didn't exist even 50 years ago destroying humanity, anybody with a grain of intelligence has to keep asking how long this present madness can be permitted to go on and who and what are responsible for it?

Ed Deak.

It's not just Prison Planet

Will There Be Immune Adjuvants in Swine Flu Vaccines?

The U.S. government has contracts with several drug companies to develop and produce swine flu vaccines. At least two of those companies, Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline, are using an adjuvant in their H1N1 vaccines.

The adjuvant? Squalene.

According to Meryl Nass, M.D., an authority on the anthrax vaccine,

“A novel feature of the two H1N1 vaccines being developed by companies Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline is the addition of squalene-containing adjuvants to boost immunogenicity and dramatically reduce the amount of viral antigen needed. This translates to much faster production of desired vaccine quantities.”[v]

Novartis’s proprietary squalene adjuvant for their H1N1 vaccine is MF59. Glaxo’s is ASO3. MF59 has yet to be approved by the FDA for use in any U.S. vaccine, despite its history of use in other countries.

Per Dr. Nass, there are only three vaccines in existence using an approved squalene adjuvant. None of the three are approved for use in the U.S.

What Squalene Does to Rats

Oil-based vaccination adjuvants like squalene have been proved to generate concentrated, unremitting immune responses over long periods of time.[vi]

A 2000 study published in the American Journal of Pathology demonstrated a single injection of the adjuvant squalene into rats triggered “chronic, immune-mediated joint-specific inflammation,” also known as rheumatoid arthritis.[vii]

The researchers concluded the study raised questions about the role of adjuvants in chronic inflammatory diseases.

What Squalene Does to Humans

Your immune system recognizes squalene as an oil molecule native to your body. It is found throughout your nervous system and brain. In fact, you can consume squalene in olive oil and not only will your immune system recognize it, you will also reap the benefits of its antioxidant properties.

The difference between “good” and “bad” squalene is the route by which it enters your body. Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.

Your immune system will attempt to destroy the molecule wherever it finds it, including in places where it occurs naturally, and where it is vital to the health of your nervous system.[viii]

Gulf War veterans with Gulf War Syndrome (GWS) received anthrax vaccines which contained squalene.[ix] MF59 (the Novartis squalene adjuvant) was an unapproved ingredient in experimental anthrax vaccines and has since been linked to the devastating autoimmune diseases suffered by countless Gulf War vets.[x]
read the rest
http://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2009/07/17/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspx
and

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/23/Journalist-Accuses-WHO-of-Plan-to-Commit-Mass-Murder.aspx

scope, man, scope

"..some 50 or 60 years ago when stats were first kept, 1 in 40,000 children has been autistic, now the figure is in one in the hundreds and growing?"

Maybe it would be worth finding out what else in our community has changed since then, eh?

What community?

Yes, that's one of them right there...

This actually is a very serious question. Firefighters, all the best efforts of worker protection notwithstanding, have a shorter lifespan that the mainstream. They accept that aspart of their job, or they wouldn't be in it. I would call shame on those who work with frail, possibly immune-compromised groups of patients, and do not do what they can to minimize the risk of an outbreak, without a very good documented reason why not. If you want the credit for being a servant of others, then you must walk the walk, instead of keeling over backwards and insisting on all the guarantees and none of the risk. One may question, whether you actually want to do this job or should go work for a telemarketing company instead.

Doherty's experts

Dr. Healy does indeed seem to think that there may be a link between vaccines and autism. She has also come out as opposing evidence-based medicine.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060903/11healy.htm

Poling is a well-known anti-vaxxer. The case he won did not say that vaccines cause autism.

For anyone who wants to understand the whole history of the anti-vaccination movement, especially its most recent and dangerous outbreak, Dr. Harriet Hall has an excellent article here:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-06-03#feature

"The scientific community has reached a clear consensus that vaccines don’t cause autism. There is no controversy.

There is, however, a manufactroversy — a manufactured controversy — created by junk science, dishonest researchers, professional misconduct, outright fraud, lies, misrepresentations, irresponsible reporting, unfortunate media publicity, poor judgment, celebrities who think they are wiser than the whole of medical science, and a few maverick doctors who ought to know better."

flu shots

I wonder if there is another reason nurses or other health care workers avoid getting flu shots.

I wonder if they see many patients coming to them that are suffering from flu like symptoms who have already received their flu shots for the flu viruses health officials believed would be dominant during that year.

I know my mother received her flu shots in the last two years and both times they didn't prevent her from coming down with the flu.

My father in law received his flu shot and came down with pneumonia which was his demise. There are no guarantees and perhaps getting a flu shot gives one the false hope that they will be immune from the various other flu viruses and bacteria floating around in our moist fall and winter climate.

Which brings me to my second point. There are fears that the H1N1 bacteria may have mutated and may be a very different disease once the flu season begins in the fall. In this case it may mean that the vaccination being manufactured will not be effective.

It may also be true that the dreaded H1N1 virus may not materialize at all and since herculean efforts are being made to produce a vaccine for this virus we may be forgetting about something even more dangerous, virus-wise, for those whose health may already be compromised.

Healthworkers know better

and I suggest Dorothy may get the shots if she wants, because she is running on a belief diguised as scientific medicine.Health care workers have seen whole old age homes come down with flu after getting shots......or they have taken the shots and become sick themselves.

Dorothy ASSUMES the shots work, health care workers know better.

I prefer to pay attention to whistle-blowers rather than government hype and propaganda.

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA

"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them, anyway."------Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the FDA)"
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/morris_h.html

BTW, did you know the WHO CHANGED THE DEFINITION OF PANDEMIC?

The new definition drops important qualifiers, like it has to be worse than the common cold and kill MANY people. Now it just means that it made its way around the globe.

"Jefferson: Don't you think there's something noteworthy about the fact that the WHO has changed its definition of pandemic? The old definition was a new virus, which went around quickly, for which you didn't have immunity, and which created a high morbidity and mortality rate. Now the last two have been dropped, and that's how swine flu has been categorized as a pandemic.

SPIEGEL: But, year after year, 10,000-30,000 people in Germany alone die from influenza. In the Western world, influenza is the most deadly infectious disease there is.

Jefferson: Hold on! These figures are nothing more than estimates. More than anything, you have to distinguish between an influenza-like illness and a genuine flu, the real influenza. "
INTERVIEW WITH EPIDEMIOLOGIST TOM JEFFERSON
'A Whole Industry Is Waiting For A Pandemic'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,637119,00.html

Booker's Rant

There is nothing of substance to respond to in Booker's comments about Dr. Healy or the comments about "consensus".

With respect to the anti-vaxxer comment about Dr. Poling it is simply not true as Dr. Poling stated:

""The experience with Hannah, Poling says, has not turned him against vaccines. "I want to make it clear I am not anti-vaccine," he says. "Vaccines are one of the most important, if not the most important advance, in medicine in at least the past 100 years. But I don't think that vaccines should enjoy a sacred cow status, where if you attack them you are out of mainline medicine."

"Every treatment has a risk and a benefit. To say there are no risks to any treatment is not true.''"

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20080306/dad-in-autism-vaccine-case-speaks-out

The Poling case was a settlement on which the government said the vaccine aggravated the child's mitochondrial disorder resulting in autism like symptoms. Autism is defined by symptoms not biological markers.

""In deciding the case, which has sparked anew the vaccine-autism debate, the federal government has not said that childhood vaccines cause autism. Rather, federal officials conclude the vaccines, given to Hannah in 2000, aggravated a pre-existing condition that then manifested as autism-like symptoms.""

Doherty

As you well know, Poling's daughter suffered from many symptoms, some of which were autism-like, some not at all consonant with autism.

Regarding Healy, you played the argument from authority to me (Healy the John's Hopkins educated doctor), but there are many equally educated doctors who think she has serious credibility problems. Just check all the articles about her on scienceblogs.com

So, to sum up, you've offered an argument from authority and a court-case that proves nothing. I'll take the scientific consensus, thanks.

Science

Can anyone post here, for the record, a link to a paper (not a blog or editorial) containing evidence that vaccines cause autism? I'm not really interested in the verdict of a court or the opinions of bloggers.

For example:

But mercury compounds are evidently still in flu vaccines, according to the blog Age of Autism, and are therefore responsible for current cases of autism.

Evidently? Because some random axe-grinding blogger said so? Where's the journalism? Where's the science?

there are good arguments for non-pharmaceutical interventions

We have seen time and again that viruses are able to adapt and become drug-resistant. There are very convincing arguments (scientific studies) to be made for non-pharmaceutical interventions. Perhaps health care workers are aware of this. They are also likely aware that there can be significant side effects - as with any medical intervention there are risks that are born by the recipient of the intervention. However, the significance of vaccinations for the purposes of cost-benefit (ie., reduced sick time - in some cases by one day) seem to pale against the ocnsequence of ever more resistant viruses.

Evidence

There are very convincing arguments (scientific studies) to be made for non-pharmaceutical interventions.

Link one.

Also...

significance of vaccinations for the purposes of cost-benefit (ie., reduced sick time - in some cases by one day) seem to pale against the ocnsequence of ever more resistant viruses.

You are confusing drug-resistant bacteria and viruses, and misunderstanding the purpose of vaccines.

a link

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2657368

Just in case

Paradox of Vaccination: Is Vaccination Really Effective against Avian Flu Epidemics?
Shingo Iwami,1 Takafumi Suzuki,2 and Yasuhiro Takeuchi1*

QUOTE: "Although vaccination can be a useful tool for control of avian influenza epidemics, it might engender emergence of a vaccine-resistant strain."

There are plenty more - but I let you search for them.

couldn't help myself

Influenza: vaccination and treatment
I. Stephenson and K.G. Nicholson

". Nonetheless, numerous outbreaks of influenza have occurred in well-immunized nursing home populations. Moreover, a study in the US found that 58% of patients admitted to hospital over the age of 65 yrs, who were culture-positive for influenza, had received influenza vaccination in the preceding few months 19. Accordingly, attempts are being made to augment protection through the use of adjuvants such as MF59, virosomal delivery of antigen to mucosa-associated lymphoid tissue, and the coadministration of live and inactivated vaccines."

Interesting stuff...

Especially this:

Avian influenza vaccination need not be used alone to eradicate the disease: additional non-pharmaceutical intervention is beneficial. Additional interventions must include culling infected animals, strict quarantine, movement controls and increased biosecurity, extensive surveillance [11], [16], [21], [34], [37].

The non-pharmaceutical methods they discuss are rather shocking, until you realize that the population under consideration is... backyard chickens.

But I catch your meaning about the development of resistant strains. This is, of course, the reason new Flu vaccines are concocted every year: viruses evolve.

Replies to various inputs

“Dorothy ASSUMES the shots work, health care workers know better.”

Actually, I didn’t say that. I said it is shameful not to be willing to do one’s best to protect vulnerable patients if one works with them every day. What health care workers know better? Please name a group. Do you really imagine that I would give advice to a whole class of people I had nothing to do with, from some kind of comfortable non-involved position? I had close contact with some of the first hospitalised AIDS patients in BC, back when no one knew what the infectious agent was. I have walked into a sick room unprotected and eight months pregnant and collected material, where the patient only later was found out to be suffering from open tuberculosis. I know the situation of a health care worker inside out. I have also had my flu shot every year without fail, because I have never forgotten the sight of the face of a young cancer patient on chemo, whose face had been ravaged by a severe rash of a common childhood disease, which would never have been present in the vicinity, if every person around would have thought not of their own dogmatic or whatever hang-ups, but of those on the receiving end of said hang-ups.

“..the vaccine aggravated the child's mitochondrial disorder resulting in autism like symptoms.”

It is vastly out in left field to extrapolate such a case to the entire population. Mitochondrial disorders are not common, nor are they mostly of a subtle nature in younger children, so in most cases, parents would know to tread with caution in everything that they did with such a child, and to seek advice.

...more

continued

“..it might engender emergence of a vaccine-resistant strain..”

Please explain the mechanism of vaccine resistance. Vaccine is supposed to work by eliciting an immune response to some antigenic (non-self, and recognised as such) part of the infectious agent, so that the immune system, confronted with the entire virus or bacterium or whatever, will react towards it, because it carries the component marking it as ‘the enemy’.
Resistance would then entail that there should be ability to somehow defend against the detrimental actions of the immune system itself. This is not specific in nature, but would be global, and I do not see how it could be a general problem, if it is even possible, inasmuch as this would result in an overwhelming infection that would kill the host, and the spread would end there. Influenza is not slow in killing people, and so you would not have the similar situation you have with HIV, where people have decades to potentially spread the infection if they are not actively taking steps to prevent this.

Finally, I would say that the anecdotal examples of populations that were vaccinated and where the flu still ran rampant is simply a consequence of the more or less successful struggle every year to get the vaccine composed so it will precisely catch all or most of the genetic variants of the virus that hits this part of the world. Time is of the essence, and sometimes the assessment of the specifics turns out to have been inaccurate. This is not a reason to completely dismiss the usefulness of the vaccination, as in most cases the estimate will have been OK.

I think this boils down to a question of attitude towards the work. We none of us like to be told what to do, and I have no problem with people not wanting, out of personal preference, to have their annual shot. I just don’t think they should be inside health care facilities, handling people who may be immune-compromised for a multitude of reasons. I see it as being in line with not wearing a mask and gloves to protect patients, or remembering to wash hands every time it should be done. I cannot help wondering what other somewhat inconvenient or even faintly risky things they will be unwilling to do for patients. We must not ever forget that we are dealing with people who are essentially defenceless and without a lot of choice to walk away from the situation. That lays an obligation on us to put ourselvesa out a bit, or more than a bit, don't you agree?

I won't get vaccinated.

you know why I won't get vaccinated?

Because I trust MY IMMUNE SYSTEM more than I trust drug companies who MAKE MORE MONEY when MORE PEOPLE ARE SICK.

Because I don't want a shot of god-knows-what injected into me.

Because I think this hysteria does more harm than good.

Because I am an adult and I have the right to say no to invasive and unnecessary "treatments" for an illness I do not have.

Because I don't usually get sick and when I do my body does a superb job of fighting it off.

Because I believe it is good for our immune systems to work these things out on their own.

Because like Ed, I think we are pumped right full enough of chemicals and prescriptions as it is.

Because the history of "modern" medicine is nothing but a litany of finding out, "whoops" too late that "cures" were worse than what they were treating.

Because they are not even going to fully test the vaccine before it comes out.

I support any healthcare worker

I support any healthcare worker who makes the same choice for any reason.

We must preserve our right to decide what is injected into in our bodies.

And right you are...

"Because I trust MY IMMUNE SYSTEM"

Certainly, if you are a strong person, your immune system will win in the end. I managed to beat down a 'walking pneumonia' in eight weeks in the dead of winter, as well as a bout of hamburger diease a number of years ago, both without any drug regimen. But the hamburger disaese led to me being phoned at home in bed by the City Health Inspector and told to stay away from my work-place until certain criteria were fulfilled to show I was free of the bug.

However, if you are not vaccinated, it takes a while for your immune system to inform itself of the intruder and to mount your defenses, and while this happens, you should not be coughing on fellow citizens in elevators and so on, and you should not be taking care of people who are already sick and sicker. That just ain't fair to them.

I shall refrain from further comment on your charming litany of 'me, me ,me.'

"We must preserve our right to decide what is injected into in our bodies."

And never have I questioned that right. I have said, though, that choosing to exercise it, you should not waltz around inside a place where caring for sick people is supposed to take place, and not care enough to do this small thing to protect them, right or no right. It is of course for everyone to balance out for himself.

As far as supporting healthcare workers, it is limited how far their own contract does. At least one of the major ones state that:

(a) An employee may be required by the employer, at the request of and at the expense of the employer:

(i) To take a medical examination by a physician of the employee’s choice.

(ii) To take skin tests, x-ray examination, vaccination, inoculation and other immunization (with the exception of a rubella vaccination when the employee is of the opinion that a pregnancy is possible), unless the employee’s physician has advised in writing that such a procedure may have an adverse effect on the employee’s health.

There you have it. This is the HSA collective agreement, with which every health care worker whom it affects should be familiar. So, at least for people under this agreement, it is somewhat a moot point.

Sometimes, we just can't eat our cake and have it too.

It's not a health measure, it's a bioweapon!

Journalist Files Charges against WHO and UN for Bioterrorism and Intent to Commit Mass Murder
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14276
Excerpt
"Burgermeister's charges include evidence that Baxter AG, Austrian subsidiary of Baxter International, deliberately sent out 72 kilos of live bird flu virus, supplied by the WHO in the winter of 2009 to 16 laboratories in four counties. She claims this evidence offers clear proof that the pharmaceutical companies and international government agencies themselves are actively engaged in producing, developing, manufacturing and distributing biological agents classified as the most deadly bioweapons on earth in order to trigger a pandemic and cause mass death.

In her April charges, she noted that Baxter's lab in Austria, one of the supposedly most secure biosecurity labs in the world, did not adhere to the most basic and essential steps to keep 72 kilos of a pathogen classified as a bioweapon secure and separate from all other substances under stringent biosecurity level regulations, but it allowed it to be mixed with the ordinary human flu virus and sent from its facilities in Orth in the Donau.

In February, when a staff member at BioTest in the Czech Republic tested the material meant for candidate vaccines on ferrets, the ferrets died. This incident was not followed up by any investigation from the WHO, EU, or Austrian health authorities. There was no investigation of the content of the virus material, and there is no data on the genetic sequence of the virus released."
--------
"Burgermeister's dossier reveals that the release of the virus was to be an essential step for triggering a pandemic that would allow the WHO to declare a Level 6 Pandemic. She lists the laws and decrees that would allow the UN and WHO to take over the United States in the event of pandemic. In addition, legislation requiring compliance with mandatory vaccinations would be put into force in the U.S. under conditions of pandemic declaration.

She charges that the entire "swine flu" pandemic business is premised on a massive lie that there is no natural virus out there that poses a threat to the population. She presents evidence leading to the belief that the bird flu and swine flu viruses have, in fact, been bioengineered in laboratories using funding supplied by the WHO and other government agencies, among others. This "swine flu" is a hybrid of part swine flu, part human flu and part bird flu, something that can only come from laboratories according to many experts."
Embedded links in the article to support the statements.

I think you need to look at the evidence presented in the above and stop pretending these shots are beneficial.

Proof That Thimerosal Induces Autism-Like Neurotoxicity

A new scientific study proves that the mercury-based compound used as vaccine preservative -- known as ‘thimerosal’ -- induces neural damage similar to that seen in autism patients.

According to the study, thimerosal-induced cellular damage caused concentration- and time-dependent mitochondrial damage, reduced oxidative-reduction activity, cellular degeneration, and cell death. Thimerosal at low concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells.

Thimerosal was found to be significantly more toxic than the other metal compounds examined.

Toxicological & Environmental Chemistry June 4, 2009; 91(4): 735-749
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/08/06/Proof-That-Thimerosal-Induces-AutismLike-Neurotoxicity.aspx

Mopled

And this is all relevant to the present discussion how? Health care workers are not young children, and autism shows up before the age of three, as well as running in families for whatever reasons. Back to the drawing board.

Again: I have not advocated that people cannot be ruled by their fears; that is a human prerogative, but I have said that those not willing to take this calculated risk for the sake of protecting patients have no business 'caring' for already sick people.

Please stay on topic insterad of wallowing in these sensation-seeking hysterias.

Moonbug

"Because I believe it is good for our immune systems to work these things out on their own."

Most of the time the immune system can work it out on its own, but, prior to vaccines, half of children died from infectious disease. As imperfect as modern medicine may be, it has helped double the average life span. Because of the success of modern medicine, most people living today have not seen a case of polio or smallpox. Parents no longer have to wonder which of their children will actually have the chance to make it to adulthood.

Regarding the issue of money in medicine, it's true that it can corrupt things, but don't get too cynical. Infectious disease docs aren't out there fighting against vaccination so they can get more business. Scientists who develop vaccines actually do want to help people.

The recent anti-vaccination hysteria has caused a return of many very serious infectious diseases. Measles has just been declared 'endemic' in Britain again, and it's completely because of a sharp drop in vaccination rates. Not getting vaccinated is, in my opinion, a selfish choice.

vaccine swine flu

Dorothy, My daughter has worked in a seniors' care home for 30 years and has never consented to having a vaccine.
She says she'll have one when every person who sets foot in that home for any reason (visitors, workers, relatives) proves they have had one first.

I am so sorry

To hear that your daughter has this peculiar turn of mind. Wanting to be the very last in everything cannot bring one very far in life. I hope things get better for her.

WHO pandemic

I'm concerned about the fact that representatives of the pharmaceutical companies which are making the vaccine were sitting on the WHO panel which made the decision about declaring a pandemic and advising mass inoculation programs.

Do you have a link

To any write-up on the proceedings of the panel? On the face of it, it would make sense to have the representatives there, inasmuch as they would need to be consulted on the feasibility of delivering the vaccine. I also imagine the discussions would have included reviews of papers pertaining to the qualities of the available vaccines. It would make sense to have the company people there for immediate consultation on the facts.

All of the people on that panel would be representatives for one or more interest groups.One would need to know what role they played, what they advocated, in order to assign any possible wrongdoing to them.

Dorothy....there is little risk from the disease itself

Even WHO says it is mild.

"This pandemic has been characterized, to date, by the mildness of symptoms in the overwhelming majority of patients, who usually recover, even without medical treatment, within a week of the onset of symptoms."

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_surveillance_20090710/en/index.html

To advocate injection of substances know to cause irreparable damage to prevent something that doesn't, has got to be the height of "Just shut -up and drink the koolaid" logic.

Hey sheep...stop thinking for yourselves....you're being "selfish".

Yah gotta love the chutzpah involved in the make-up of the gatekeeper mentality. The ability to ignore evidence and do variations on the theme of "obey authority" is mindblowing.

Three Reasons Health Care Workers Won't Get it

1. Like a large part of the general population, some health care workers have needle fear. It is a powerful phobia.

2. The vaccine will not have been adequately tested. See the article today on the Globe's Op-Ed page.

3. Many public health officials have said that the vaccine will come too late and will be untested; therefore, our time and effort should be being put into treatment and ways of managing the disease (For example in the UK, NOT going to the doctor - thus spreading the flu - but speaking on the phone with the doctor who will go through a checklist to diagnose, having a designated "flu friend: who will pick up the Tamiflu dose and deliver it through the mail slot, deciding when to close schools or universities etc.

SQUALENE

Mopled, your comments about squalene were particularly interesting to me.
I was vaccinated with what my doctor enthusiastically referred to as a "new, 10-year tetanus shot" around 1989. Within a few months i had contracted an auto-immune disease known as erythema nodosum.

It took a while for the diagnosis, and i was told it was quite rare. A couple of years ago another doctor told me that it had become quite common. Pity.

I have no idea whether the vaccination triggered my auto-immune disease, but i've had the disease annually now every year since the vaccination. It can be quite debilitating.

In my view, one should balance the potential risk of the disease with the potential risk of the "prevention/cure", and do one's own research prior to making a decision to medicate/inoculate. It just makes sense that medicines have their risk, particularly when combined.

Precisely

"..one should balance the potential risk of the disease with the potential risk of the "prevention/cure", and do one's own research prior to making a decision to medicate/inoculate. It just makes sense that medicines have their risk, particularly when combined."

absolutley. My point was and is, that if you are a health care worker, you have an obigation to make the balance heavily influenced by consideration for the patients, many of whom are immune-compromised and can therefore not be counting on the same prognosis of 'mild' for a bug as others, who may be able to laugh it off.

I thought, by the way, that tetanus shots were always good for ten years. Never mind. If you spend serious adventure time in the boonies, and you know the gory details of dying from lockjaw, there's really no contest. I hope you at least make use of your protection and have some fun in the outdoors when you're OK.

booker

It should be noted I was not suggesting the doctors would not get vaccinated to improve their business. I don't believe there is a doctor in Canada without enough business at the moment.

I am suggesting that the drug companies that produce these vaccines make an awful lot of money off of them.

And these drug companies don't just make vaccines - they make all sorts of drugs that they love to peddle to people covered by our public health care system.

So they have no vested interest in avoiding epidemics nor in keeping me any healthier than I need to be to avoid out and out lawsuits ... and perhaps death. Killing me might reduce their profits.

Until we eliminate the money from pharmaceuticals I will not trust them.

As a youth I was pumped full of "anti-depressants" which have proven to be little more than trumped up placebos with devastating side effects.

Two of the drugs they prescribed me are now blacklisted as treatment for adolescent depression, because they INCREASE the likelihood of suicide.

So I have experience with drug companies not properly testing their products and not caring whether or not they hurt people in the process of making money.

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/ucm096321.htm

That is a link to the US F.D.A. - not a blog.

I was prescribed these freaking meds - with one of them I was on the maximum ADULT dosage and my suicidal ideation was getting WORSE and WORSE and the doctor - who was no genius either - wanted to increase my dose. It was only because I had read a book at the library that I knew the max. dosage.

I refused to take more asked him to be taken off them - he kept my dosage the same.

Shortly after, in a fit of despair, I tried to take my own life.

Now that was eerie. I am telling you I have never been so out of it as I was at that time and there is no doubt in my mind that most of it was the bloody chemical which had never been tested for treatment of my condition - that they foisted on me.

The drug companies don't care about us. They just want to sell their damn vaccine. I'll take my chances with the flu.

...take a look at this

"FDA is announcing a request to manufacturers of all antidepressant medications to update the existing “black box” on their product labeling to include warnings about increased risks of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in young adults ages 18 to 24 during initial treatment.

The labeling also will point out that scientific data did not show this increased risk in adults older than 24 and that adults ages 65 and older taking antidepressants actually have a decreased risk of suicidality."

notice that the ONLY age group to see decreased risk of suicidality with these drugs is the over 65 age group - funny eh?

So exactly why is our over-stretched health care system paying for these worthless, if not harmful, pills?

more links

Ottawa/provinces to spend $400 on flu vaccine:
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/CanadaWorld/2009/08/06/10384921-sun.html

Who is getting all that money anyway? Hmmm? Santa Claus?

Here is a sad story about the same drug I was given:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE4D6143FF932A15752C1A9629C8B63

Looking back, Mark and Cheryl Miller would have done a lot of things differently with their 13-year-old son, Matt. They probably would never have left Lenexa, Kan. They would have sent him to a different school, and they certainly would have chosen a different therapist. But most of all, they wouldn't have given him Zoloft. ''It's not a pleasant thing living with the thought that you had a hand in your son's death,'' Mark Miller told me recently. ''Making him take those pills was done out of love for Matt, but it was still the wrong thing to do.''

Or have we already forgotten:

"US drugmaker Eli Lilly pleaded guilty to violating US law in its marketing of anti-psychotic drug Zyprexa and will pay 1.42 billion dollars to settle criminal and civil allegations, officials said Thursday."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iBtvz9G1kw59Nc-Io4FZUuxyVZgw

But the drug companies just want to save us from the evil flu virus right?

Pertinent as this may certainly be

to a discussion of health care measures in general, and antidepressants in particular, it doesn't really figure in discussing flu vaccine. The two do not run parallel in how one would evaluate their merit, or in the possible justification for taking calculated risks with them.

In your story, by the way, it seems to me that the lack of wisdom in the use of antidepressant drugs was mostly a result of the schooling of the doctor. I can assure you that not everyone has had the bad experience with antidepressants that you did, but that they are helpful to many. Too too bad that you had to go through what you did, and my most heartfelt congratulations on being here to tell the story.

I can also understand that you now feel about all meds and concoctions the way you do, but it does not make sense to stretch such a specific experience to the use of immunization for health care workers, which is what we were dealing with. We are people who have taken on a special set of obligations, and we must live up to them or call it quits. Not because big brother tells us so, but becaue we are adults and know we cannot have it both ways. Health care is a relatively secure job, at least today. It is reasonably well paid, and it bears some degree of respect and credibility in the general sense. But this we have no claim to, if we cry off every time our marker is called in. There is no honor in that.

As to why the system is paying for the pills - my guess is that the system does not know what the heck else to do for the too many people suffering from depression. If you, based on your own life, have better ideas, I am sure you could contribute mightily by telling about them. My own sense is that one serious problem with depression is that society today has no respect for the fact that we go through phases in our life, and each change we must face carries a deal of grief, for we must let go of something we cherished. Instead of letting that process happen and be patient and supportive with it, we want a quick fix for every hurt in our lives, slap a pill on the hurt, and presto!. Only that isn't the truth, and you now know this, which makes you wiser than many people who have never suffered depression. Of course it isn't always that simple either, as there are true chemical imbalance illnesses. But we are not wise in how we handle them either. Every human being walking this Earth is on a learning curve, and we don't know enough yet about anything. But we cannot do nothing. So, whatever you know, speak up.

More for Moonbug

I sat and read the story you gave a link to. sometime, while I was doing that, in the background they were running that TV ad, the one with how getting rid of your kids is supposed to be 'the most wonderful time of the yeeear". I cannot believe that disgusting piece of sales gimmick. Whatever it is trying to sell, I will never buy. The kids being dragged sitting in the sofa look petulant, pale and listless. You wonder why we have so many depressed yong folks? In a society where that kind of hate-mongering is considered legit. 'Supposed to be a joke'. Well I'm not amused.

Many thanks for the link, it is a great article and a story that makes you want to run screaming out of the room. My parents lived with me in a run-down never repaired apartment with the roof leaking over their heads. They twice had an opportunity to move to far better conditions in the other end of town for the same rent, but each time declined for the sole reason that they did not want to uproot me from my friends and my school. I loved them to pieces, because they showed me RESPECT.

The Globe and Mail Op-Ed is worth reading

"Some public-health officials have described flu vaccines as “highly effective,” but the internationally recognized Cochrane Collaboration (which accepts no money from the pharmaceutical industry) did a systematic review of all high-quality randomized trials (25 in all) studying influenza vaccination. They concluded that “the evidence does not support universal immunization of healthy adults.” Period.

So how does this information help us to think clearly about the current flu pandemic in which we're mired?

Well, it seems that despite its spread, this flu virus is a bit of a dud for the fear-mongers. If, as seems not unlikely, the H1N1 virus mutates, our government will have purchased enormous quantities of a flu vaccine around which we will have virtually no safety or effectiveness data, and an already existing and very costly stockpile of probably useless drugs.

In short, a big bust all around.

Governments and public-health officials are sensitive to the exhortation: Don't just stand there, do something. But it's sometimes wise to reverse that dictum: Don't just do something, stand there (and think a bit about what might actually produce more good than harm).

Alan Cassels is a drug policy researcher at the University of Victoria. Arthur Schafer is director of the Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics at the University of Manitoba.
Please read it all...the antivirals like Tamiflu and Relenza don't seem to be very good either.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/what-do-we-know-about-the-vaccines-safety-not-enough/article1242422/

To add to the discussion...

Which I have followed with great interest, a post on my H5N1 blog: http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/h5n1/2009/08/dr-butlerjones-on-vaccination-for-healthcare-workers.html

I came down with polio in 1948. A few years later I happily took the new vaccine for it, knowing a classmate who'd had polio twice. In the US Army in 1963, we new draftees were marched through a gamut of vaccinations, administered without needles via pressure guns (they hurt). No one asked us if we'd rather not.

Does anyone here seriously think that the polio vaccine did more harm than good? Or that our children and grandchildren would be better off having had measles, mumps, diphtheria, and a host of other ailments we've been spared by vaccination?

But we aren't talking about polio or mumps or measles

The question is whether the H1N1 vaccine will be of any use against what seems to be a fairly innocuous flu bug. There is also another question which is, is the effect of the flu shot, or shots, going to be worse than getting the flu itself.

Meanwhile, what I find really strange is the reaction of governments to this virus.

The swine flu conference planned for Aug 19-21 in Wash. DC will discuss...
"Mass Fatality Management Planning

Develop and maintain plans, procedures, programs,
systems
Develop and implement training and exercise programs
Direct fatality management tactical operations
Activate fatality management operations
Conduct morgue operations
Manage ante-mortem data
Conduct final disposition"
http://www.new-fields.com/ISFC/brochure.pdf

It looks as though the authorities would be really disappointed if this flu turned out to be a dud

How can your opinion be changed?

Mine could be changed by peer reviewed evidence published in a reputable journal- but then again, I've never been one to buy into ghosts, gods or conspiracy theories. I prefer my opinions be grounded in reality.

That said, for all of the anti-vaccination crew, I ask you: what could change your opinion on vaccinations? If the answer is "nothing" then it is a waste of time for me, Dorothy or Booker to try to sway you with evidence. "Nothing" would indicate that you are not capable of dealing with facts as they are presented to you and it makes any attempt at education futile.

That said, since I don't have an answer from you yet, I will refute the evidence that was presented. First off, I was surprised to learn that I had never heard of the journal that was given as a reference. I read more about it and learned this about the review process:
"PLoS ONE will rigorously peer-review your submissions and publish all papers that are judged to be technically sound. Judgments about the importance of any particular paper are then made after publication by the readership (who are the most qualified to determine what is of interest to them)."

They don't screen for relevance- in other words, ANYONE could submit an article with some figures and likely get accepted. For those of you not familiar with the process, there is a hierarchy when it comes to scientific journals- Science, Cell, NEJM are some at the top and there are levels from there. An online journal that doesn't evaluate for relevance? Not very high on the totem pole.

Putting that aside and addressing the poorly written article independently: their study design was severely flawed. They developed a theory that vaccinations could lead to infections with less sensitive, more lethal viruses (without sufficient empirical support for that claim) then developed a computer model to support that theory. Programming knowledge and a creative imagination doth not a scientific article make.

Furthermore (and this was addressed by someone else already), this vaccination schedule they speak of is for CHICKENS. Additionally, the authors state that part of the problem is that not all chickens are vaccinated. This means that one solution would be to vaccinate all the chickens to reduce spread. These two statements would seem to make most anti-vaccination arguments difficult: either the chicken is a good model for humans and we should ALL be vaccinated OR the chicken is a poor model for humans and this study is useless. I will let you pick.

I will admit that I did not read every word of this article, though I did read the abstract, introduction, discussion in their entirety. Those of you who believe the study to be a strong support of your views- which parts specifically did you find compelling? I would love to read those parts more closely.

SSRIs

Re: the antidepressant new warning label:

1) only one drug was implicated in the increase in suicidality of adolescents and young adults. There is extrapolation out to other SSRIs as possibly causing the same effect. That seems very responsible from an organization you seem to believe is in cahoots with big PHARMA.

2) suicidality does NOT mean suicide or suicide attempts. It means thoughts of suicide. This risk is highest in the first several weeks of therapy. There are several explanations for this, but exactly why is unknown. It is important to note, because too often people are prescribed SSRIs the same way they would an antibiotic- without adequate follow up and psycho-therapy.

3) Not addressed in anything I saw written above, but important to mention: the risk of suicide actually INCREASES the first few weeks on anti-depressives. Why? A common theory is because a large part of a major depressive episode is severe fatigue and difficulty with motivation. This is one of the first symptoms to resolve with SSRI use, so there are still suicidal thoughts, but now patients have increased motivation so they feel better able to follow through on suicide plans. Another reason to watch people VERY closely when they begin therapy for depression.

Depression is a terrifying disease and treatment is important. Telling people they can do it themselves with some water and tea or herb is dangerous and in terrible form.

Tangent over.

Personal Rights

I am not a healthcare professional however I do work in a health care facility and choose not to receive any flu vaccinations. For half a decade that I have I been employed at this site I have not had the flu but I have observed most of the nurses that receive the flu shot, seem to get sick each year.
I choose not to add more chemicals into my body that I am already exposed to in my environment that are out of my control. So things I do have control in I make every attempt to ingest or use items that have minimal chemicals such as organic foods,natural immune boosters, natural home made hygiene products, natural home made cleaning products, limiting household toxic items, using glass over plastics and the list goes on.
I believe deep down in my gut this is the right way to go, rather than jumping on the band wagon of drugs and vaccinations as a security blanket. I truly believe that since I have made this change I am healthier for it and will continue to refuse my dependance on drugs of any kind until absolutely necessary.
One thing I do agree with is when out in public or entering a healthcare facility is Wash Your Hands!!!! I am amazed by the amount of people who do not ,especially after using a public washroom.
These are simpler and healthier solutions I will continue to use and wished more did rather than our dependancy on vaccinations and drugs!!!

demean, demeanor...

"It's so obvious that there's no use vaccinating caregivers when relatives, doctors, others visit to examine, kiss and hug when they could be carrying the flu."

Excuses, excuses. That's what it still looks like to me. I do not live my life considering how others play the game and where it puts me and gives me leeway for doing nothing at all and still look good in my own mind. I keep in mind what I have committed to be responsible for, and then do the job. I am not a doctor and have therefore not made the Hippocratic oath, but I still consider it a valuable guide. First, do no harm. That means a bug that can do damage to your patient in whatever weakened and vulnerable state he or she is, and this, remember, is what we're talking about, very sick people, that bug cannot get past you through your own inaction and you still lay claim to being a 'healthcare worker'. If that makes me a getekeeper, then I guess I'll wear it. Some gates ought to be guarded. I'm aspiring to a flaming sword.

But I'm glad for you that you did get my drift.

Thank you to future DOA for clarifying these important things. Yes, it was a tangent, but one we could not leave unanswered either.Moonbug made a valuable contribution as I see it by telling this own story, and this needed to be recognized and respected.

may I compliment your pen name? You are so right. No one gets out of here alive. A lot would go easier and find its rightful proportions in our thoughts if we never forgot that.

Ignoring facts is what vaccine supporters do

The cheerleaders ignore studies which show that flu vaccines are ineffective and then pretend that we who won't follow the fake hysteria are the ones at fault.

They ignore the fact that mercury is only second to plutonium in toxicity and try to pretend that the rise from 1 in 40,000 to 1 in 150 cases of autism has nothing to do with the 35 shots containing mercury given to children before they enter kindergarten.

Now they try to pretend that swine flu is a greater danger than getting a shot with an adjuvant, squalene, know to be too toxic for humans since the 1930s.

"Pilot Study

After the initiation of the AVIP, verbal reports of adverse reactions came to us from some recipients of the anthrax vaccine. These reactions included extreme pain and swelling at the injection site and rashes. Then, weeks and months later, many recipients experienced joint and muscle pain, dizziness, chronic headaches, low-grade fevers, chronic fatigue, weakness, seizures, memory loss, and cognitive problems. The similarity of these clinical symptoms to the cluster of health problems reported by Gulf War era veterans.5"Antibodies to Squalene in Recipients of Anthrax Vaccine

Pamela B. Asa,1 Russell B. Wilson,2 and Robert F. Garry3

Department of Microbiology, Tulane University Medical School, 1430 Tulane Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana 7011 Received August 15, 2001, and in revised form October 26, 2001

Go for it Dorothy!
http://poisonevercure.150m.com/squalene.htm

"it does not make sense to

"it does not make sense to stretch such a specific experience to the use of immunization for health care workers, which is what we were dealing with. We are people who have taken on a special set of obligations, and we must live up to them or call it quits."

Yes, it does, because every person has the right to make the same determination that I have, and say "this is not right for me" or "I don't trust these companies with my body" whether they are health care professionals or otherwise.

I have no problems with those who don't wish to get immunized being asked to stay home (with pay) or asked to work in a different unit - but it is not the job of health care professionals to get shot up with whatever the mob has gotten hysterical over this week.

If you start to take away the rights of health care professionals to make their own decisions about what happens to their bodies I can guarantee you that we will have an even GREATER SHORTAGE of them than we already do.

So, by all means, if you want less nurses and doctors, keep believing that by entering the health profession they have abdicated their right to control what goes into their body.

Nana

“..Department of Microbiology, Tulane University Medical School, 1430 Tulane Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana 7011 Received August 15, 2001, and in revised form October 26, 2001..”

2001. OK. And New Orleans. If they are as good at setting up studies as they are at building dykes, then I’m not worried.

The paper appears to show that ASA was present in 15.7 % and 15.8% respectively, of two pristine control groups, while it was present in 0% of the AVIP participants receiving other lots of vaccine.

This is quite a spread there, and certainly renders the study merely ‘suggestive’ of the claimed correlation. Please take note that this is first and foremost a web site marked ‘this domain may be for sale by its owner’.

http://www.vaccinationsandsids.com/

"Except for one symptomatic individual, positive clinical findings in 17 ASA-negative personnel were restricted to 4 individuals receiving vaccine from lots containing squalene. ASA were not present prior to vaccination in preimmunization sera available from 4 AVIP personnel. Three of these individuals became ASA positive after vaccination."

This paragraph needs translation into English. First it mentions 4 out of 17 ASA negative individuals, but who had 'clinical findings'. Then it mentions 4 (other?) individuals, who had been negative first, but then became positive. Are we to understand that these people had 'clinical findings', but then were given additional shots of the stuff that should supposedly have precitpitated their symptoms, whereupon three became positive, and this 'proves' the case??

The sample sizes are small. Why is that, given that the numbers of military personnel involved were counted in the millions?

Yes, I will certainly ‘go for it’. Or else I’ll get out of the job. For as long as I claim to be doing it, I’ll live up to the contract I willingly entered into.

I’m only happy that you will not be among the patients I go the extra mile for. Thankfully, most of mine are not old enough to have accumulated the amount of spite coming through your keyboard.

future DOA

"Depression is a terrifying disease and treatment is important. Telling people they can do it themselves with some water and tea or herb is dangerous and in terrible form."

You know what the best cure for depression is?

Water, exercise, good company, good healthy food with lots of vegetables and lots of sleep. Along with someone to talk to, and someone to teach one better coping mechanisms.

You know what the cause of most depression is?

A shitty life. Bad things happening. Poverty. Lack of friendship.

You can quote a bunch of studies at me, but you know when I got better? When I was taken off meds by a psychiatrist and given tools to cope with the horrible things that had happened to me and the terrific struggles I was facing.

Yes, taken off meds by a psychiatrist.

And no, it was not just one med that was changed - look at the FDA list:

3. What products are involved in this announcement of a labeling change?

The requested labeling changes apply to the entire category of antidepressants. Products involved in today’s action include: Anafranil , Asendin , Aventyl, Celexa , Cymbalta, Desyrel , Elavil , Effexor, Emsam, Etrafon, fluvoxamine maleate, Lexapro, Limbitrol , Ludiomil, Marplan , Nardil, nefazodone HCl, Norpramin, Pamelor, Parnate, Paxil, Pexeva, Prozac, Remeron, Sarafem, Seroquel, Sinequan, Surmontil, Symbyax, Tofranil, Tofranil-PM, Triavil, Vivactil, Wellbutrin, Zoloft, and Zyban .

I'll take the FDA's word over your uncited claim, thanks.

The problem with this society is it doesn't want to actually deal with problems, it just wants to cover up the symptoms.

Like this swine flu, what is the real problem?

Ask yourself, why are we getting swine flu in the first place?

Perhaps it is the government-approved and industry-loved style of warehousing thousands of hogs together in little pens where the development, mutation and proliferation of disease is inevitable?

Of course, instead of trying to prevent such needless, stupid things from happening, we cook up an injection and tell them that it will protect them from the consequences - when regardless of whether the injection is safe or not - IT WILL NOT stop either the virus or deaths from it (maybe slow it down, or save a few people but it won't cure it)

The way we treat depression, is the same back-ass-wards way we treat every problem in society - we try to cover it up without addressing the root of the problem.

I, for one, will not participate in such madness.

lindi6676

"I choose not to add more chemicals into my body that I am already exposed to in my environment that are out of my control. So things I do have control in I make every attempt to ingest or use items that have minimal chemicals such as organic foods,natural immune boosters, natural home made hygiene products, natural home made cleaning products, limiting household toxic items, using glass over plastics and the list goes on.
I believe deep down in my gut this is the right way to go, rather than jumping on the band wagon of drugs and vaccinations as a security blanket. I truly believe that since I have made this change I am healthier for it and will continue to refuse my dependance on drugs of any kind until absolutely necessary."

Right on sister! I'm right there with with you. When a woman's breast milk has more toxins in it than we would allow in industrial cow's milk - it is a sign that SOMETHING IS WRONG.

We need to get back to the roots. Wash your hands. Stay home when you are sick.

The government would be better off passing mandatory sick-leave-with-pay legislation than pushing this vaccination.

I promise you that it would be more effective than a vaccine to pass legislation giving every worker the right to stay home without losing money when they are sick.

Minimum wage workers can't afford to stay home when they are sick - and ironically - most of them work in service - where they would be most likely to be a HEAVY vector for infection.

Again, instead of dealing with the basic problems - "why will this disease spread so fast" - "because workers can't afford to stay home"

Our governments would rather pay big pharma almost half a billion dollars for injections for people.

Sorry, but this one cannot be bent..

"..If you start to take away the rights of health care professionals to make their own decisions about what happens to their bodies.."

This life is working on a whole lot of deals. Something for something. You are trying to discuss not with me, but with a contract that Health care workers willingly entered into, and which, at least for some of us, states that we must take immunizations as required by the employer, unless we can document why not. Up till now, I have not seen this contract upheld, but this may be one situation where it will be, and we should realize that and decide to live with it or get out of the trade. It is unworthy to have njoyed the benefits of a higly regarded position and then try to weasel out, when it requires something we may have qualms about.

By taking any job, we write off some of our autonomy. Are you familiar with the term 'management rights'? If you work under a collective agreement, or even if you don't, find a union website and look it up in the agreement posted there.

Also think about that we went to school, trained, filled our jobs for years. Every time, we outcompeted other candidates. If we never meant to live up to our obligations, we have defrauded the public, who paid for our training and who truly won't know the difference, but can only take what we deal them.

We are all one giant experiment folks

One look at the Center for Disease Controls site and a link to what are in vaccines and you realize the kind of cocktail you are being injected with or take orally.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

Most people will shake off the effects of the vaccine. Some will not. Some will die. If you have an egg allergy and get, for example, the Influvenza (Flulaval) --from the above table-- you are flirting with danger.

It is all calculated. Just as some safety modifications in vehicles would have saved some lives, but the cost of the modifications were considered greater than the pay out due to existing and future lawsuits, so the modifications were not made.

The pharmaceutical industry is a business. It has not more morality than the armaments business. If they did, then they would be suppling medicines to underdeveloped countries at a lesser cost or at least allowing those countries to produce much needed medicines without expensive licensing. At any rate, the pharmaceutical industry will not spend any more money on safeguarding that it has to. They provide their own safety data to the FDA. The FDA does not run independent experiments and clinical trials.

In reality, you are on your own. You have to use the same kind of common sense thinking that Ed Deak seems to use. You must question your physician and health board or they will not do their homework.

Remember, they bury their mistakes. Literally.

Moonbug

Apparently you misunderstood me. Yes, the warning is for all SSRIs, SNRIs and various antidepressants with combinatorial effects similar to the aforementioned meds- we agree on that. What I am saying is that the studies with a significant n were done on one specific drug within the class. For good reason, the data has been extrapolated out. My point was only that the FDA is acting in the public's best interest by extrapolating out the data to other drugs within the same class. That means I think it's a good thing that all of these drugs carry the warning. I wanted to point out that the same FDA you think is propagating lies about vaccines, you believe is giving the truth about SSRIs. I find it interesting, is all.

Also, I am sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with antidepressants. Let me assure you, there are many people who are able to lead far improved lives because of antidepressants. I don't know what your background is, but I would invite you to speak with a psychiatrist about what they have seen in their patient populations. Depression is not always a result of a bad situation, like you seem to be implying. Perhaps it was for you, but I can't speak to that. Depression leads people to do things like shoot themselves in the face, shoot themselves in the chest, drive cars into trees, take severe overdoses, stab themselves, and set fire to their home while inside- and these were only the things I saw in people who LIVED through them in one month's time (to say nothing of the people that die of other methods-like jumping off of an 18 story building). Talking to these people it is very clear that there is something about their thought process that is (for lack of a better word) diseased. It is sad and tragic and to deny these people something that could save their lives would be a crime. Data show that SSRIs are better at preventing suicide than psychotherapy. Certainly, a combination is best and for people who don't have a severely diseased thought process, therapy alone can be helpful.

I am in COMPLETE agreement with you that there is a tendency to over-medicate in our society: whether that manifests itself as unnecessary antibiotics, antidepressants to treat normal grief or bereavement, or opioids for minor pain control. I also think there is a place for the use of all of these drugs.

I ask again: what evidence could be given to change your mind?

I am a health-care worker ...

and I get the flu vaccine every year. The odds seem to be in my favour -- I am a healthy 64-year-old. I just don't get why people are so suspicious, especially educated people who work in the health-care system and have direct contact with vulnerable patients.Seems like the height of selfishness to me

This vaccine is experimental

Part 1 of 4
The H1N1 swine flu experimental vaccination, martial law and eugenics

http://www.examiner.com/x-10438-Peace-Studies-Examiner~y2009m8d2-Part-1--The-global-economic-crisis-H1N1-experimental-vaccination-martial-law-and-eugenics-story

"One conflict was presented in the June 11 2009 Congressional Research Reports that stated, “The majority of patients that have had A H1N1 swine flu have experienced mild symptoms and made a rapid and full recovery.”

Furthermore, as author F. William Engdahl notes, no “government or private agency in the world has yet to scientifically isolate, to photograph with means of electron microscopy and to list the chemical characteristics of the ‘novel H1N1 Influenza A virus’ as it is now officially called.”

The Obama administration released stockpiles of Tamiflu and Congress was soon to approve $7.65 billion for the non-proven pandemic influenza. After pressured, a spokesperson at an April 26 press conference admitted that President Obama had not used the Tamiflu.

Testing patients to see if they had of H1N1 was halted, so reports publicly being made about the extent of H1N1 are inaccurate. H1N1 symptoms are same or similar to any other flu. Nevertheless, a National Emergency is in force and raising public concern about the vaccine being developed and the military deployed on U.S. soil.

Giving children a fast-tracked experimental vaccination in schools is justifiably concerning. People living in oppressed (developing and least developing) countries given the fast-tracked, experimental vaccination is equally concerning.

Dr Keiji Fukuda, the WHO Assistant Director-General for Health Security and Environment, warned about potential dangers of the experimental H1N1 swine flu vaccine saying, "There are certain areas where you simply do not try to make any economies. One of the things which cannot be compromised is the safety of vaccines."

"I wanted to point out that

"I wanted to point out that the same FDA you think is propagating lies about vaccines, you believe is giving the truth about SSRIs. I find it interesting, is all."

I don't think that the FDA is lying about vaccines. I don't care one way or another whether they are safe - to be quite honest.

Just like with genetically modified foods or bovine growth hormone milk - it might be just fine, but I would much rather stick with the un-meddled with product.

I am agnostic about whether vaccines cause autism. That isn't the issue here.

The only thing that would change my mind about medicine in general is if the industry was totally and completely run on a not-for-profit basis.

I would take meds if I had a serious, life threatening condition. I got a tetanus shot last time I scraped myself up.

However, I have no intention of getting a flu shot. That is ridiculous. I am young and healthy. It would have to be a seriously deadly flu to kill me, and if that is the case I am doubtful that a rushed, untested vaccine would do much good anyway.

And if we have a flu going around that kills young healthy people the world will be enough of a mess that it is just as well to be dead.