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Quebec's 'Huge Shift'
NDP victor says 'great divide' on sovereignty no longer drives voters.
New MP Thomas Mulcair with Jack Layton.
It's only one byelection win, but from where Jack Layton is sitting, it looks like a massive shift in the federal political scene.
Right now, the federal New Democratic Party leader is sitting in a quiet room off the lobby of the Hotel Vancouver, at a table with his two new deputy party leaders.
One of those deputy leaders is longtime Vancouver East MP Libby Davies. The other is Thomas Mulcair, the NDP's new MP from Quebec.
Layton is in town to show off Mulcair to the local media. The two have already done the rounds in Toronto and stops are planned for other cities in the new future.
Mulcair, 52, is a former provincial Liberal who served four terms in the Quebec national assembly and was for three years provincial environment minister. He was shuffled out of cabinet after clashing with Premier Jean Charest over plans to privatize a provincial park.
While the NDP wasn't much of a factor in the other two byelections held in Quebec on Sept. 17, Mulcair pulled off a whopping victory in the Outremont riding, taking 48 per cent of the vote. The Liberals, who had won almost every election in the riding since the Great Depression, were far back at 29 per cent.
There's a "huge shift" going on in Quebec, Mulcair says.
"People are tired of being taken for granted by the Liberals."
Dumont signaled change
Mulcair said he won because he drew away a lot of Bloc Québécois voters as well as Liberals who are dissatisfied with Stéphane Dion's "weak leadership."
But there's something bigger happening, as well, he and Layton argue.
For years, they say, Quebec politics have been divided between sovereigntists and federalists. All other political issues have been swamped by the question of Quebec independence, meaning that voters who might agree with the NDP on social issues still cast their vote according to their stand on sovereignty.
"What's happened in this byelection is we've got people looking beyond that great divide," Mulcair says.
The process started, he says, with the surge of Mario Dumont's Action démocratique, which came close to upsetting Charest in the March provincial election. Dumont landed on the provincial scene "like a ton of bricks," and caused Quebecers to look beyond the sovereigntist/federalist divide, Mulcair says.
"There's this vast social democratic influence in Quebec," chimes in Layton. "But it's been encased in the formation of that dialectic..."
He appears momentarily embarrassed at his sudden shift from English to Hegelian, but Mulcair insists that this is exactly what's been happening.
Layton nods. "My old prof Charles Taylor, he would have said there's a paradigm shift going on in terms of that dialectic.
"Really, that's what's happening here."
Focus on 'normal things'
Mulcair says he senses that Quebec politics are becoming a bit more like those in the rest of the country.
The issues that people are starting to focus on are the "normal things" that voters elsewhere focus on, he says.
This, he says, is good for the NDP.
From this end of the country, it's not clear how much of this is a genuine seismic shift and how much is the kind of wishful thinking that keeps every politician going.
Pundits in Quebec have noted that the Liberals ran a rotten campaign. They were slow off the mark and appear to have been badly out-hustled by Mulcair and his team of 500 volunteers. Much of the blame is being laid on Dion, who is starting to look like the great Canadian punching bag.
Others have noted that the Outremont byelection saw a painfully low turnout of only 37 per cent. A general election, which will almost certainly see a much higher turnout, could well produce a much different result.
Then there's the Phil Edmonston factor. Edmonston is the only other MP the party has had from Quebec. Try Googling "NDP Edmonston flash in the pan" and you'll get the idea. Edmonston, author of the Lemon-Aid books for car buyers, won a byelection for the NDP in Quebec in 1990, but was gone by the next general election.
Hot buttons: war and environment
True, Mulcair is a much more seasoned politician than Edmonston. In fact, it may well be that his win in Outremont was more of a personal victory than a win for the NDP.
"Some of it is the fact that people knew me and were comfortable with me," Mulcair concedes. "Some of it is the fact that we had a lot of Bloc supporters coming over.
"But most of it is what we were telling people on the war, on the environment."
A few minutes later he's off to the airport. He stands, bends over, and kisses Davies on both cheeks. Layton gets a big hug.
Related Tyee stories:
- Quebec, Angry and Torn
Pinched voters vent against rich, poor, immigrants and the political class. - Jack Layton's Hot Buttons
The NDP Leader on our climate, our troops, our banks, the next election, and more. A Tyee interview. - Reading Stephane Dion
Reviewed: Straight Talk: Speeches and Writings on Canadian Unity
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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63
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Frank
4 years ago
Flash in the pan?
Sure, its just a by-election and it may not lead to a big breakthrough in Quebec for the NDP. But for the moment it looks pretty good and I'm willing to go so far as to say Mulcair will outlast Dion.
Because when it comes right down to it Dion doesn't have what it takes to drag the Liberal party into the 21st century. I'm sure he has some good personal qualities but he has zero leadership skills and zero political skills. He's living proof the Libs have no idea what they're doing which is probably a fair assessment being as they seem confused about even what they are.
If Mulcair is right about the Quebec voter the Libs are going to be out of government for the next 10 years or more and the NDP will be finding fertile ground in la belle province for some time to come.
So my head tells me Mulcair is Edmonston redux but my gut feeling says he's just the first.
Working Man
4 years ago
A Smashing Victory!
Well, the NDP gets a second seat in Quebec in its history. What a fantastic coup. That on an astounding 37% turnout and a candidate that actually polled better last time than he did this time.
Maybe with one more they could form the next federal government.Thirty five seats should be enough, right?
G West
4 years ago
Ah but working man
What happened to your hero Dion?
He gets any more popular in Quebec and there may not be a safe Liberal seat in the whole of La Belle Province.
I used to live in Montreal, voted in that riding as I recall when the NDP couldn't draw 1000 votes - things are definitely changing when Outremont doesn't vote Rouge.
Skywalker
4 years ago
It's just a byelection folks.
In this byelection nothing was going to change. People had the luxury of voting on a whim and all that changes when their is the the possibility of effecting a change. After that Dion will have to do some soul searching. He just does not come across well. Perhaps it is his accent when he speaks English. He should work on that.
Working Man
4 years ago
NDP Government?
G West, you are right, this must be the beginning of the tide;
If the NDP wins another 75 seats or so in the next election, it could form a government.
Frank
4 years ago
The rub
The real story of what's going on in Quebec has little to do with the NDP and has more to do with the past division of the province into Bloc or Liberal.
After all, the Conservatives also made gains and they are in fact the gov't.
Therefore the rwal story is those who declared Dion to be the wunderkind of Canadian politics before he'd been tested.
Well, early returns are in and apparently those on here who thought Dion was going to lead their party back into government were quite wrong.
He's not at all what they hoped he was and their party's future is cloudy indeed.
Frank
4 years ago
In fact
I'm pretty sure the prediction was Liberal majority next election. Still wanna ride that one?
Frank
4 years ago
Liberal chances are slim
Not to worry, if I was a Liberal lately I'd prefer to talk about the NDP too.
G West
4 years ago
unless the grits dump Dion
Which I suspect they're in the early throes of doing right now, they are in for a thrashing - and not just in PQ - The Liberals seem to have caught the old Progressive Conservative 'illness' and are busy chewing up each other instead of pee wee. I remember how that was practically an avocation for Tories in the past.
In the long run I think that's probably a good thing for the country - the Liberals sense of deep entitlement was just too profound. I've actually been looking at the many ties between the Campbell government and the Federal Liberals - one can only hope the illness rubs off on the provincial liberals who've always worn two hats...
Some very interesting connections coming to the surface over at BC Mary's place Frank - if you haven't stopped in for a while:
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
gaulois
4 years ago
More emphasis on the candidate onward
My reading on this is that the electorate no longer gives a hoot about all these ideologies driving the vote: federalism, sovereignism, market deregulation, and add to this the "environment".
Mulclair had earlier clearly demonstrated that he had a backbone on exactly this matter of environment hijacked for electoral reasons. The NDP still has mile to go before it can demonstrate that it can entangle itself from these bogus ideologies, including some heavily embedded in the party dating from PET days.
I think you will see a whole lot more candidates showing backbone in order to get elected. I might be dreaming in thinking that the electorate is maturing enough to pay attention. The electorate has also become far more comfortable wth minority governments. That is most healthy IMO.
Van Isle
4 years ago
Was talking to a fellow last
Was talking to a fellow last week from Laval and he knows Mulcair. Apparently he's a hot-head and only listens to himself for advice, and figures that Mulcair is a one-trick-pony. It's amazing to listen to the talking heads about this "amazing" NDP victory and Dion is in trouble when they have a 37% turnout. The proof is in the pudding when the next general election happens.
Greenwavesporter
4 years ago
This is "huge (BAD) shift"
If the NDP gain any ground in Quebec, its at the expense of the liberals (as by now any right leaning libs are either staying put for ever or are already with the tories) and a little bit at the expense of the bloc. The Green Party is polling above 15% in quebec...
Theres no way the Liberals are getting back their supporters from the conservatives, and the NDP will only further take Liberal support, the Greens can take from everyone but considering there are 3 "left" parties and 1 "right" party to steal from... basically what im saying is a NDP boost in quebec = harper majority.
And someone mentioned an NDP government with 75 seats? not only is that ridiculous, but you obviously dont understand the NDP. They dont want to form the government... Honestly! It would tear them apart as a party. The NDP are a protest party, which hasn't accomplished anything note worthy since tommy d and health care.
Jack is happy to back up minority conservatives, while picking away at the liberals with a dream of one day replacing them, its why he worked so hard on attacking the liberals and then all he could muster about harper is "hes wrong on the issues". he knows where his votes are coming from.
Harper in turn loves to see a strong NDP, pulls support from liberals.
Its about time people wake up and ask themselves how many seats its going to take before Jack gets something positive done instead of being the most reactionary politician in parliament (no small achievement)
Have you ever worked in an election against them (or with them) they just constantly attack anyone with a similar support base and ideas, and give the guy with the opposing ideology a break, they are soo dirty and desperate in campaigns, printing negative adds, stealing signs, spreading rumours and outright lying to voters at the door.. god I was once an NDP supporter a few years ago in HS... but after working on campaigns with and against them... I've really been turned off... now im happily supporting the Green Party.
G West
4 years ago
Greenwavesporter
You must be new around here. Working Man hates the NDP - he was just being ironic.
As for the green party - until they can get their act together provincially don't look for much progress on the federal scene.
Initially I thought the deal with Dion might work to their advantage...but Dion has turned out to be such a dead letter that it wouldn't surprise me if Elizabeth May decided to pull out of that little partnership as well.
I don't know what the NDP prospects in Quebec are and one bye election proves absolutely nothing...that said, anyone who attacks the NDP for their record in federal politics is carrying coal to Newcastle because they've never HAD power at that level.
The Liberals, on the other hand, have a horrendous reputation to live down. pee wee doesn't need another stick to beat the liberals with - they've already provided enough from their own record - in my view.
As for the provincial greens - do they even have a leader yet?
Frank
4 years ago
Doth protest too much
Actually a Green calling the NDP nothing but a protest party is pretty funny.
Then to hear the Libs called a left-wing party gave me a few more chuckles.
Thankee kindly for that.
David Eaves
4 years ago
Misreading the situation
Tom Barrett's analysis is shockingly poor. Deviating from herd is sometimes a demonstration of independence and originality, but sometimes its just a red flag. Sadly this is a case of the latter.
Most national commentators do see this election as a problem for the Liberals... but no one is calling it a "Huge Shift." What we had here is a deeply unpopular Liberal Party coming up against a star candidate tapping (and don't forget to include dissatisfaction with the provincial liberals).
What is more shocking is that Barett is essentially serving as a mouth piece for the federal NDP. If there was a shift - then where was the NDP in the other by-elections?
I don't mind people writing partisan pieces. However, it would be nice if they were categorized under "Opinion" not "News."
Frank
4 years ago
the NDP
Perhaps, but we, national pundits aside, don't know that yet.
avandoc
4 years ago
This party wins, that party wins
But how well are WE represented as a people? Not very with the current electoral system. Proportional representation could allow us to avoid having to make that single-issue vote that Quebeckers have had to make. Separatism has poisoned their politics for years and damaged our federation, but with a more rational system for choosing candidates, it might have been different. It still could be.
I hope Ontarians pass a proportional voting referendum in 3 days. BC could follow in the next election. That would allow a real "huge shift" toward a more representative form of government. No more having to vote for someone you tolerate just to oppose a party you despise. Smaller parties could actually get some candidates elected. Voters would gain a lot while many incumbent politicians would lose their complacency, and that would be good!
G West
4 years ago
I'm not so sure, David Eaves
about this:
Especially coming from someone who considers himself a 'national' commentator as well.
Barrett himself says:
and later notes:
And, at the end, adds this:
Perhaps you should look back at Barrett's analysis again. I think your facile summary is as much an indictment of your own biases than it is of Barrett's.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Eaves, I'd say you sound a lot like a traditional Liberal with a bad case of the blues. I think this may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black!
Tom Lal
4 years ago
NDP
So the Dippers took a seat in Quebec. Two questions arise in this. So what? One seat in a bi election is hardly on the way to government. But the more important question is..So how did a former Minister in one of Canada's more right winged governments lead by an Ex Tory become an over night Socialist horde. Perhaps when all of the hype and jubilation dies down someone might ask this question. Me thinks Jack Layton may be on his way to join the Hair Club for men to emerge as a Tony Blair clone. One thing in this is true. Quebecers often have voted a social democratic way. Levesque a good example. Bouchard the exception to this. So voting NDP is not so much a suprise. In fact is this not the same Province that once elected a Communist many years ago? Fred Rose is I believe the only communist ever elected as an MP
So lets not get ourselves out singing the international just yet.
David Beers
4 years ago
David Eaves, perhaps read it again
Your critique of Tom Barrett's 'analysis' doesn't equate with the piece I read (and edited). First of all the 'Big Shift' is my headline with the words in quotes because someone did say it -- Mulcair. He was the subject of the piece, interviewed while in Vancouver. What was the 'shift' he suggested? That Quebec voters are moving away from basing their votes mainly about the sovereignty issue, and are inclined to factor in other issues. And that Liberals cannot nearly as much count on getting the federalist vote. A lot of people made that point when Dumont made his strong showing. Mulcair picks up the theme in the interview. And then Barrett goes on to write:
"From this end of the country, it's not clear how much of this is a genuine seismic shift and how much is the kind of wishful thinking that keeps every politician going.
Pundits in Quebec have noted that the Liberals ran a rotten campaign. They were slow off the mark and appear to have been badly out-hustled by Mulcair and his team of 500 volunteers. Much of the blame is being laid on Dion, who is starting to look like the great Canadian punching bag.
Others have noted that the Outremont byelection saw a painfully low turnout of only 37 per cent. A general election, which will almost certainly see a much higher turnout, could well produce a much different result.
Then there's the Phil Edmonston factor. Edmonston is the only other MP the party has had from Quebec. Try Googling "NDP Edmonston flash in the pan" and you'll get the idea. Edmonston, author of the Lemon-Aid books for car buyers, won a byelection for the NDP in Quebec in 1990, but was gone by the next general election.
True, Mulcair is a much more seasoned politician than Edmonston. In fact, it may well be that his win in Outremont was more of a personal victory than a win for the NDP..."
Mouthpiece for the NDP? Not at all a fair criticism of Tom Barrett, a fine reporter who brought us the views of Mulcair and Layton and provided plenty of context besides.
Frank
4 years ago
Quebec
No, but it may be on the way to 2, 5 or 10.
Because he actually won the seat. The NDP recorded 300,000 votes in Quebec, not an inconsequential number but are normally spread too widely to win a seat under first past the post.
Au contraire, winning a seat in a province like Quebec is a bigger deal than winning one in Alberta because the growth potential in a province with a social-democratic history means there really is room for a lot of growth if people there don't vote based on their stance on separation.
Frank
4 years ago
Quote:The Green Party is
Yet gets 2% on election day.
gaulois
4 years ago
Don't forget Julius Gray
Rumor has it that Julius Gray would be the next *major* NDP acquisition in Quebec. Julius Gray, an anglo-québécois, is absolutely brilliant and would deserve IMO to challenge good old Jack. I can although see people out west saying not some from Quebec, yet an other time...
I would not underestimate the possibility of a move toward the left in Quebec in federal politics. The NDP has had its own share of anti-French rednecks in the past and one might better understand why the Quebec voters have remained cool to the NDP more or less repeating the Libs mantras in regards to their place in the federation.
IMO, the NDP, over and above getting star candidates, need to understand why the ADQ popularity is increasing in terms of decreasing the size of the State in the life of people, without necessarily subscribing to neocons belief (although the biggest challenge for the ADQ).
The paradigm to acknowledge for the NDP would be of how to move left with a smaller State apparatus. In order to do so, the NDP would have to slash the special interest groups that are currently tying its hands. It is an irony that they accuse others of the same.
aftermath
4 years ago
Is it really an NDP victory, or a Liberal loss?
While I am pleased to see an NDP victory in Quebec, I am in no way convinced that this marks a shift in NDP fortunes. I support the NDP, but feel a by-election victory does not a breakthrough make.
Let's be honest - the Liberals made a poor choice of candidate, whil the NDP was blessed with a candidate with a proven track record - something few rookie MP's can offer!
The NDP in Quebec is held back by the Bloc Quebecois, not because they are Quebec First, but because so many of their policies are similar to those of the NDP. In Quebec being a social democrat means you are more likely to support the Bloc because they are more likely to win.
The real question is whether the NDP victory in Outremont translates into a realization in the rest of Canada that the current best choice to defeat the disasterous policies of the Conservatives is to hold your nose and vote for the largely untested NDP. (I mean untested in the sense that if they were to gain a large number of seats there would be many MPs with limited or no parliamentary experience.)
The question is whether Jacl Layton can position himself, and the NDP, as the viable alternative to Harper's policies? Will the media judge the message rather than seek out dirt to create doubts in the minds of the electorate?. Is the Canadian main-stream media prepared to offer fair coverage? If they are, the NDP might surprise in the number of seats it will take.
And then - to change the electoral system!
realisticman
4 years ago
One Huge Shift, ?
Remember Mario's Huge Shift? That one was to the right. It will take another general election to know. Is there a huge divide? Are Quebeckers moving left nationally while right provincially?
As James Laxer wrote in March this year;
"Dumont, who supported the Yes side in the 1995 referendum, has now said he opposes a future referendum and wants to see an autonomous Quebec within Canada, a Quebec that will have its own constitution and citizenship. Like the old Union Nationale, Dumont will wave the Quebec flag, but he is determined to drain Quebec nationalism of the progressive social content that it has displayed in recent decades. Dumont favours a two-tier health care system, with a strong private component, lower taxes and an end to the notion of an inclusive social model for Quebec. He exudes a populism of the right that features nostalgia, weaker government, and anti-intellectualism. Like Duplessis, he will accept a Quebec whose economy is run by the large corporations as long as the Quebec flag flies overhead. He fits ideally with Stephen Harper’s vision of a post-welfare state Canada in which Ottawa withdraws from social programs and allows the provinces to chart their own course."
G West
4 years ago
Shifts
My correspondents in Quebec tend to think it was a bigger 'shift' when Mario went to the Penguins instead of Les Canadiens r'man.
I guess you haven't been following Dumont's attack on minority voters - of course he's in the Harper mold - that's what the whole country has to look forward to if pee wee ever gets a majority.
My friends in Quebec tell me that there are a great many urban voters who are turning to the NDP - believe it or not!
realisticman
4 years ago
As I said
It will take another general election to know. I make no predictions, yet.
realisticman
4 years ago
Just noticed Chantal
Last week she wrote; "Outside the greater Montreal area, a significant number of francophones have been transferring their support to the Conservatives federally and to the Action Démocratique provincially."
She also thinks Mulcair is very important. But I can't see that playing much outside Metro Montreal.
Frank
4 years ago
Will the NDP grow in PQ
Unfortunately predictions about the NDP's chances in Quebec in the next election after the next election is complete aren't called predictions.
I'll stick with my prediction that Mulcair will win his seat again, will still be in that seat when Dion is no longer leader of the Libs and that the NDP popular vote increases possibly producing 2 to 5 more seats.
G West
4 years ago
Note emphasis pls R'man
My friends in Quebec tell me that there are a great many urban voters who are turning to the NDP.
The real question now is what Dion will do. Lead the grits into a Kim Campbell type crusher or resign before it's too late...
pee wee's blustering bravado about the sacrosanct nature of the upcoming throne speech leads me to suggest he's itching for a fight - and con men never fight fair.
However, if the opposition is smart, they'll play pee wee's game a little longer - once the Ontario provincial vote is over the economy in both Ontario and Quebec is going to go into the toilet...and pee wee's predictable preening about the economy and the high-flying loonie is going to start to sound very futile.
I thought his remarks about Saskatchewan sounded very childish this afternoon - not as bad as Trudeau's remarks about wheat, but nearly so. pee wee's deracinated character is going to hurt him sooner or later. Like Gary Trudeau's representation of Bush as a wraith, Harper is disappearing into the wallpaper...
realisticman
4 years ago
I did add "yet".
Once the campaign is underway we'll see who has the support of the 'machines' in Quebec. The ADQ 'machine' may be working for the PCs and the Liberal 'machine' may be in disarray. The picture will become more predictable.
So, West, since the Bloc and the NDP have said they will not support the throne speech are you suggesting that, to keep the PCs in office, that the Liberals will do the unprecedented, "play pee wee's game", and support the government?
Tom Lal
4 years ago
NDP
In the 70's Quebecois on the left soured on the NDP in part due to David Lewis and his drive to not recognize Quebec's right to self determination. In those days it was seen by many as an affront to Quebecers. I would not suggest that now many Quebecois even remember this but it has affected its ability to build a foundation in Que. As an election seems to loom on the horizon it will be intersting to see how Quebec votes.
G West
4 years ago
I'm suggesting that an election in the next 60 days
I'm suggesting that an election before Christmas is very much in pee wee's interest and almost no one else's...certainly not in the Liberal's interest.
As always, the Liberal Party of Canada is more concerned with self-interest than anything else I don't think the fact Dion has not responded to pee wee's latest petty challenge over the throne speech can be ignored.
One thing is for certain, the Liberal machine in Ontario will be fully cognizant of exactly how much support the party can expect in that province. If the NDP does well in the Ontario election and McGuinty comes back with only a minority house at Queen's Park I think we can 'look forward' (and I use that term loosely) to a few more months with the deracinated pee wee at the helm before there is an election.
Dion is a poor leader - he's not an idiot!
His
realisticman
4 years ago
I think the Libs will abstain
to keep the PCs in office and avoid an election. The Liberals will disappear when the throne speech is voted on. They'll be crossing their fingers that voter disgruntlement will set in in Ontario & Quebec due to a soaring dollar and manufacturing job losses and they'll push Dijon to offer corporate subsidies to keep the industrial plants greased.
The NDP could do well in the Ontario vote. Seems that McGuinty can't loose even though he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
G West
4 years ago
Speaking of corporate subsidies
Did you read PATRICK BRETHOUR in the Globe today?
It seems Gordon has decided that the provincial treasury should now be in the venture capital business...even for ventures that have bugger all benefit for the province. We need more private venture capital for business investments outside of BC like a hole in the head.
What I can't understand is what the hell is wrong with the Opposition. This 'criminal' is selling the bloody store and they can't find the bloody light switch. From gimmees to the mining industry for power lines to service mining operations nobody wants; to selling out huge chunks of the ALR for the benefit of Campbell’s friends; to five years of utter neglect in care homes run by private businesses for profit all the while thumbing their nose at the Supreme Court...
I'm less concerned about big shifts in Quebec and more concerned about the utter fecklessness of the official opposition right here at home.
If some NDP member doesn't get their ass dragged out of the legislature later this month for protesting this outrage that truly is a crisis.
happy
4 years ago
I read it
What does it, and your previous post, have to do with this discussion. For some stupid reason I thought we were talking about Quebec. It's like you have an obsession with Gordo every waking second and no matter what the topic you always steer it back to the "crimes" of the Libs all the while insinuating about the massive unrest and unhappiness bubbling just below the surface ready to explode any day now. Maybe not tomorrow but soon, very soon...
And although its off topic, the article sounded pretty good to me. Looks like a little more thought than "Shoveling money off the back of a truck" went into it.
happy
4 years ago
Tyee Editor Sir
Just curious I once had a reference I made to a public figure ( not a politician ) as a "raving lunatic" deleted as inapropriate yet the Premier of the province is regularly called much worse eg. "criminal" as above, and this is ok.
Can you go over the guidelines as I'm confused
Frank
4 years ago
Campbell
Well, we can get away with calling Gordon Campbell a criminal because he is. That wasn't an impersonator in that drunk tank in Hawaii.
G West
4 years ago
and happy, besides Frank's point
The "quotation" marks make a difference too.
The Brethour article was really meant for r'man. He and I have rather a long history - but I'm glad you read it.
You think using taxpayer money to support venture capitalists who are investing funds all over the world is a 'good' idea?
Are you aware what the rate of success for new ventures is?
DO you think it's a good idea to use public money to promote and finance private risk - taking: especially risks that may be offshore?
DO you believe it's a good policy to spend public funds on highly speculative ventures when there are thousands of citizens here in Vancouver who are sleeping on, or almost on, the streets?
DO you believe that public funds should be invested in such ventures when care homes in Victoria can't look after their clients properly now?
I could go on. But maybe you'll get the point. Campbell friends and their lifestyle appear to be a little more important to him than the lifestyles of the average citizen.
Which group DO you see yourself falling into happy?
You're right about one thing - this isn't about Quebec.
G West
4 years ago
And r'man
Just in case you happen by, I'd like to point out one para from the excellent article in today's G&M - aporpos of our earlier debate.
In addition, these data cover only up to 2005, and so do not reflect much of the impact of the massive injection of cash into areas such as vaccination and malaria control that have come from agencies such as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria.
Much of the actual progress in improving childrens' health in Africa comes from...wait for it...
The main package of interventions Mr. Malunga offers (vaccinations, vitamin A, antenatal care, breastfeeding promotion and bed nets) was tested in a Canadian-funded pilot in 11 countries in West Africa and in 2003 was shown to reduce mortality by 20 per cent. Canada is the largest funder, globally, of both vaccinations against the killer childhood illnesses (at a cost of about $10 a child) and of vitamin A supplementation, which typically costs less than five cents a child but cuts mortality by 23 per cent.
And it's not coming from heroic young Canadian doctors spending time at Buffett and Gates financed medical centres with lots of benchmarks and performance measures either.
Many developing countries have recognized that they need a way to get preventive health care and information out from district centres to rural and poorly educated populations, and there have been all manner of schemes to train community health volunteers. But very few countries have been willing to do what Malawi does: pay them. It's only $36 a month - not even enough, Mr. Malunga lamented, to buy a bicycle - but in a desperately poor country, it is enough to keep him showing up in a crisp blue polyester uniform to weigh and vaccinate babies each day.
Which is, if you'll pardon me for a moment, exactly what I wrote about the question several weeks ago right here at Tyee.
All quotes from Stephanie Nolen
(apologies for being so far off subject)
happy
4 years ago
Power plants in Pakistan Mr West
Why don't you give us a refresher on how Public funds were expended on this one, where the beneficiaries were, well my gosh, friends and insiders of the NDP!
How could that be. The party of the downtrodden making out like thieves behind everybodys back.
And to top it all off - They were - shock and horror - COAL FIRED !!
happy
4 years ago
Hey Frank
Touche` You made me laugh. I'll save my rouges gallery of "progressive" lawbreakers for another dicussion. Don't want to give it all up at once.
G West
4 years ago
You really are pretty funny happy
As I recall that wasn't a case of throwing money at a group of random venture capitalists - it was a venture run through a subsidiary of a crown corporation – I’m not surprised you couldn’t make the necessary distinctions. That it turned out badly isn't really all that unusual (given how successful you neocons have been in ‘settling’ things in the Middle East – what happened with that project by the way?
However, if it had been a benefit to the people of Pakistan I'd say that was a general good: However, if Gordon Campbell's venture pigs make a profit you can be sure the taxpayer will see very little of it. These things are designed to reduce the risks for his buccaneer buddies from Howe Street, not actually help any real people either here or in the 3rd world.
I take it you're also out protesting the recent spate of ship-building in Flensburg - either that or you should be demanding that the bizarrely out of control convention centre should have been built there too and shipped over here on barges rather than fill the pockets of another set of Campbell's close personal drinking buddies.
It’s going to be fun to see Campbell’s crew of lower-deck shipmates answering questions again in the legislature isn’t it? I think that’s the real reason they all wanted a big pay increase – they were sick of taking the heat for what happens in their ministries even though the whole government is run out of the Premier’s Office.
Rumour has it that one of the venture schemes the premier wants to promote is a video game where players maneuvers a car through a series of road-blocks while drunk – ought to be very popular in Korea they think.
realisticman
4 years ago
Glad you admit it West
bed nets, as you quote.
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/GlobalHealth/Pri_Diseases/Malaria/Related+Info/AfricaMalariaDay.htm
Why this snide remark?, "And it's not coming from heroic young Canadian doctors spending time at Buffett and Gates financed medical centres with lots of benchmarks and performance measures either."
Referring to my nephew that I wrote about a few weeks ago, aren't you? Wrong yet again GWest. My nephew is NOT a Canadian doctor and he was NOT working at a Gates funded facility. He was out in the wilds delivering babies, mostly at night. Saving lives too! Can you not resist these erroneous and nasty jibes that you know absolutely nothing about. You do it just because successful people are involved? Such continual spite from you. Even when the Globe and Mail runs a front page story confirming the positive results that I wrote about before and you rejected, suggesting that all charity was guilt driven, you still want to spin it rather than graciously acknowledge you were wrong.
happy
4 years ago
Hydrogate Mr West
It was dubbed at the time since you're normally razor sharp recall seems a little foggy here. And you're right, I can't make a distinction except one. In simple terms, Taxpayer money was used on a speculative enterprise and Friends and Family of Glen Clarks hand picked stooge John Laxton were given the inside track to get in on it. The Public wasn't. It was a Secret that the MSM brainwashed Public couldn't be trusted with.
"You think using taxpayer money to support venture capitalists who are investing funds all over the world is a 'good' idea?Are you aware what the rate of success for new ventures is?
DO you think it's a good idea to use public money to promote and finance private risk - taking: especially risks that may be offshore?
DO you believe it's a good policy to spend public funds on highly speculative ventures when there are thousands of citizens here in Vancouver who are sleeping on, or almost on, the streets?
DO you believe that public funds should be invested in such ventures when care homes in Victoria can't look after their clients properly now?
above quotes by Mr West
As I said, I can't draw the distiction except one. The Libs are doing thier thing in Public. The NDP did it in secret and got caught. It was a major scandal and it cost Laxton his job,(no doubt he walked with a very nice Taxpayer funded golden handshake)- do you remember now?
So to sum up your argument- Taxpayer money used by Liberals to promote investment in Public is bad.
Taxpayer money used by NDP to promote investment in Secret is good.
I'm a little bit at a loss wondering what this discussion has to do with shipbuilding in Flensberg. Why would I protest some desperately needed new ferries that are being built On Time On Budget. You do know, of course, that the local bidder for the project, had they won were going to subcontract the bulk of the construction to China and then merely assemble the components here. As you pointed out Germany is a progressive country that we should look up to. So you'd rather the Chinese had built them then and taken years longer to do it. You surprise us all. ( thats called sarcasm)
G West
4 years ago
Not at all r'man
You were promoting the Gates Foundation at the time and my assuming your young nephew was connected to their efforts was perfectly natural.
My point at the time was - if you take the time to go back and read what I wrote - directed toward the kind of work the Gates foundation is doing and the way its projects are managed. The Nolen article is clear that the good results described are NOT a part of the Gates campaign - maybe you need to read it again.
As for your nephew - I should have known he wouldn't be Canadian - though for the life of me I can't think why. I thought you were too for that matter.
The point I was making, quite simply, was that the good results Nolen described were being accomplished by uneducated but dedicated Africans working for their own countrymen. You'll remember that my main point, in our earlier discussion, emphasized how important I thought that kind of effort - delivered to the villages where people actually live and NOT DRIVEN BY GATES' benchmarks and performance goals - was the real solution to the problems of health care in Africa.
Now dry your tears and stop pretending I disrespected your nephew - we've been through this all before.
G West
4 years ago
I know all about it happy
Both Laxton and Sheehan were fired and Brian Smith (another famous NDPer) did a complete investigation and the rules were changed at Hydro. Mind you in those days Hydro actually was SOMETHING before Campbell got hold of it and started selling off the rivers to his friends. You might want to check the boards of a few of those companies buying up the run-of the river contracts for sweet rates for the next (what is it?) 40 years or so.
Can you guarantee that John Les will resign over the cost over-runs at the Convention centre?
Moreover, I'm not surprised you'd want to get the impression out there that BC couldn't have built the type - C ferries...that's a central point in Campbell's attempt to try to avoid paying the 25% import duty the new boats would be slapped with if those ferries could have been built here instead of in Germany.
Do you work for the Bureau of Public Affairs happy?
happy
4 years ago
Thats a bit of an insult
Implying I'm a government worker that is. No Public worker would last a week in my shoes. They'd have a jammer keeping up with my workload. But some of us thrive on it. Different strokes.
And I didn't say we couldn't build the new ferries here at all did I. I pointed out another of those pesky FACTS about how the local bidder would have done it, had they won. Exporting jobs to China. And you support that with your stand. Period.
As for the 25% tax, well, the Feds took the common sense decision not to collect that on that European ferry the corporation bought as an interim replacement for the Northern run, correct?
The problem with SOME people is that they just can't get over what was, not what is. I've said we have a great ship Repair industry in this province, lets continue to build on that and the world will come to us. We tried it your way and thats the main reason the ferries aren't being built here. You had your chance in the 90's to create an industry where there wasn't one and you screwed it up royally. It wasn't the media, it wasn't a neocon conspiracy. Not one single Professional Marine expert at BC Feries wanted those things built. They wanted exactly whats being built in Germany right now. You've got no one to blame but yourselves. Well, Glen...
G West
4 years ago
I dunno
Seems to me I read a couple of marine experts who said the real problem isn't with the design of the ferries themselves - they actually use such ferries very successfully in other parts of the world - but with the changes that were made in order to adapt the design to the docking facilities at BC Ferry ports. A lot of added weight and balance problems apparently went along with that.
Moreover, you can't deny the parking and access situation at the terminals is a complete cock-up.
Look, I'm not particularly interested in the mistakes the Clark government made - it made plenty and they certainly didn't keep an eye on what Hydro was doing either; but, you have to admit that the spectacle of Gordon Campbell lighting his hair on fire over the Nisga'a treaty; holding a referendum on treaty negotiation and now pretending he's chief ‘share the wampum’ because KPMG said that business wanted a deal is a lot more disconcerting than a trumped up charge over a deck that was litigated to death in the media and thrown out by the Supreme Court.
In addition, you have to admit that it was completely crazy to kill jobs in BC to build ferries in Germany (in a highly government subsidized industry there) at a time when the forest industry is going into the toilet and things were so bad - according to Campbell - that all he could think of doing was giving wealthy British Columbians and corporations a big tax break...
I just don't understand why a hard worker like you happy, is so prepared to look the other way on all the promises Campbell has broken, all the phony deals he's fashioned for his friends at the same time that you get upset about some ferries that probably - under slightly different economic circumstances (and the pressures on the government from commodity downturns and federal cutbacks were far more extreme than anything Campbell has had to contend with) could have been put to valuable use.
I just don't get you people - you ignore what's going on around you and pretend the past is more important that the mess we’re in today just because you have some money in your pocket.
I mean, c'mon, are you really all that shallow? Health care and retired people, not to mention children and families are in real trouble Happy and Campbell doesn’t ever pay them anything but lip service. Look around you. If the US economy keeps sinking and the loonie keeps rising we are in for a truck load of trouble my friend – and Gordon Campbell will still be flying off for weekends in Hawaii – even though he pretends to have turned green. You’re following the wrong leader my friend.
And when things go pear-shaped, don't say I didn't warn you.
happy
4 years ago
Yes it was poor desisn
I don't have to read or talk to "experts" about the mistakes made in construction. I AM an expert. I don't work in the Marine sector but the technology cuts across many different industries. As for changes made to adapt to to the docks, are you going to tell me they didn't know what kind of docks we used in BC before they started building? That this was a unforseen surprise? Come on. In the private sector heads would have rolled.
As for lost jobs, well that happened the second the third ferry hit the water didn't it. Where were all these orders that we were told were going to pile in once the world saw our outstanding product. Oh yeah, there was already a glut of unused second hand boats on the market. Again, yet another unforseen surprise, who knew.
As for the poor workers, well the reason the local bidder was going to subcontract to China is that they have nowhere to do it here because the existing facilities are full of, what, normally BC Ferries undergoing maintenance. Full employment for the workers Mr West ( except for the ones who were hired green and trained how to weld aluminum - not that big a deal by the way ) at least they got some free training they could take somewhere else.
As for the rest of your always lengthy post thats not the topic here and I'm not getting into it.
happy
4 years ago
I meant poor Design of course
I'm not an awful speller, just an awful typist
G West
4 years ago
Well isn't that special! Mr EXPERT
Pardon me if I'm not impressed.
That certainly wasn't the case in 2001 - Campbell and his trained seals were doing nothing but crying the blues about how bad the economy was then and why. In addition, there were plenty of people looking for work here and leaving to find it elsewhere – while Campbell was delivering tax cuts to his dance partners from Howe Street – just like the good Socred he is under that oleaginous man-tanned skin of his.
Campbell prefers to take his business - fronted by a PR creature called Hahn to help German industry recover from their industrial recession...nice guys you support.
Not that they've ever had an affinity for the truth.
I read a detailed report about the problems of the fast Cats and since you don't claim to know anything about the marine industry I think I'll take everything you say with several helpings of salt and form my own conclusions.
Yesterday you were trying to put one over because you thought I didn't know what was behind what your so-called Hydro gate.
Naturally, you don't care to discuss anything else because those things don't fit into your cramped and close-minded version of 'reality'. When you can't actually sustain an argument by half-truths, bluster, insults and name calling you run off...pretty much what I expected!
I hope you don’t have any senior relatives lying for hours in their own urine in a private care home my friend – or any kids with ADHD in our wonderful schools…or a recent University graduate and her husband with $65,000 in student loan debt and jobs in Vancouver who can’t find a decent place to rent – let alone buy….but don’t worry, one day when you really need someone to give a damn about something or somebody you can’t buy…remember what I told you about the direction this province is going
happy
4 years ago
lets have the debate
you've read a detailed report on the problems. State them and we will determine whether I'm blowing it out my ass or not. It the Real World its called Put up or Shut up
G West
4 years ago
I already have
And you've already told me you're no expert...wanna go over THAT again?
PU or SU works both ways happy and the real world doesn't appear to me to be the one you live in.
Let's start the debate with the current state of health care in the province; then let's move on to affordable and accessible child care for young families.
After that I'd like to hear your thoughts on affordable and accessible housing for retired people and care homes for the aged and when we've heard your solutions for those problems maybe you can tell my why it should take 70% of a middle class family's income to just pay the mortgage on an average home in Vancouver.
I'll just hang on while you get your ducks in order on those issues - then I'll give you another even longer list so you can tell me how well Gordon Campbell is doing the job 28% of the people eligible to vote in the last election cast ballots for him to do. That's the real world I want to talk about, not some trumped up nonsense about the past.
Don't hurry, I'll wait.
And I haven’t forgotten the homeless either – or the nearly 20% of families in this province whose children are born into poverty (the official definition)…lots to talk about.
realisticman
4 years ago
Run Aground Again
I was really looking forward to a comprehensive review from experts on how wonderful the Fast Cats that Glen Clark and his No Damn Plan gang launched. GWest, you were asked for it since you claim to know something after extensive review, let's hear it. How come the new industry didn't woo the world, as promised. How come the Cats were beached pronto? How come BC lost a half billion bucks? Try and leave the old saw about affordable housing alone for a few minutes. Nobody's starving, are they?
G West
4 years ago
I never said a word about how wonderful they were
What I wrote was that the same design operates very successfully in other parts of the world and analysis indicated that design changes to make docking at BCFerry facilities were the source of the major problem in terms of weight/power issues that led to the operational difficulties the Cats experienced.
I assume you didn't read my acknowledgement that there were plenty of problems during the NDP years - not a few of them as a result of a world-wide depression in commodity prices and horrendous cutbacks in shared cost commitments from the senior government. And many of them exacerbated by the myopia of the main stream media and their fascination with a certain sundeck which was, mutatis mutandis, a hell of a lot less significant than the bribery scandal at the heart of the Campbell kleptocracy – as you well know.
The one thing I would like is if people like you and happy would actually deal with the gross and growing inequality and burgeoning problems in BC today and not 7 years ago. Given the different fiscal and financial situations extant, would it be unfair of someone to ask why you guys can't get your heads out of wherever you seem to put them whenever the socreds are in power and actually address what’s happening TODAY?.
Perhaps while you’re at it you could also explain why Campbell hasn't directed his 'people' to deal with the mess he created in care homes and hospitals with his Bill 29 – a remedy for which he was directed to find by the Supreme Court months ago.
I'm sick and tired of being asked to justify what went on a decade ago and I'd like you and the CEO of this province to start answering some questions r'man...or do you prefer to live in the past?
G West
4 years ago
should be
'to facilitate docking at BC Ferry facilities'...
G West
4 years ago
and, r'man, perhaps you'd also like to weigh in on this
October 9, 2007
Distribution of Nets Splits Malaria Fighters
By REUBEN KYAMA and DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.
MAENDELEO, Kenya — Veronica Njeri, 45, says she has “never healed” since losing two of her six children to malaria 20 years ago, and she still feels vulnerable. While her oldest are adults or teenagers, and have presumably built up immunity to the disease, she worries about her youngest, Anthony, who is 4.
But since hundreds of free mosquito nets came to Maendeleo, her rice-farming village in west-central Kenya, “malaria epidemics have become rare,” she said happily, even though the village sits amid stagnant paddies where swarms of mosquitoes breed.
Villages like Maendeleo are at the center of a debate that has split malaria fighters: how to distribute mosquito nets.
Recently, Dr. Arata Kochi, the blunt new director of the World Health Organization’s malaria program, declared that as far as he was concerned, “the debate is at an end.” Virtually the only way to get the nets to poor people, he said, is to hand out millions free.
In doing so, Dr. Kochi turned his back on an alternative long favored by the Clinton and Bush administrations — distribution by so-called social marketing, in which mosquito nets are sold through local shops at low, subsidized prices — $1 or so for an insecticide-impregnated net that costs $5 to $7 from the maker — with donors underwriting the losses and paying consultants to come up with brand names and advertise the nets.
“The time for social marketing of bed nets in a big way is over,” Dr. Kochi said in an interview. “It can become a supplemental strategy for urban areas and middle-income countries.”
Two years ago, social marketing was at the heart of a scandal when it was revealed that the United States Agency for International Development, or USAid, which distributes foreign aid, was spending 95 percent of its malaria budget on consultants and 5 percent on goods like nets, drugs and insecticide. Under attack from several senators championing the fight against malaria, the agency later announced that it would spend at least half its budget on goods.
Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma, called the new W.H.O. policy “a great move,” adding, “We knew social marketing doesn’t work.”
Bolding is mine....
Another great 'victory' for market capitalism I'd say. I think we've had this discussion before
You can read the rest of it here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/health/09nets.html?8dpc=&pagewanted=print
happy
4 years ago
blah, blah, blah
You've proven my point. Your not Qualified to debate the Technical Isuues. Which is all I asked and warned you that this was what I'm good at. Insead the Generic GWest This is the Worst Time in Human History Sermon. I'm outa here windbag
happy
4 years ago
Oh and Mr West
Why do you keep saying I'm not an EXPERT? I've already gone on record as stating I AM. LETS ROCK
happy
4 years ago
Lets start off simple
Why were diesel engines installed instead of the original choice of propulsion?
Extra points for knowing what the original propulsion system was
G West
4 years ago
This is what you wrote
REMEMBER!
Posting anonymously about what an 'expert' you are is about as relevant as yesterday's Vancouver Sun.
Pardon me if I'm not impressed...you could be the future king of England and sign yourself 'happy' , happy, and it still wouldn't impress me as to your ability to evaluate this issue.
I think the original propulsion was a turbine system, by the way.
The decision to alter the bow and stern of the Cats rather than adapt them to the existing docking arrangements was, in retrospect, foolish.
I already wrote that, so what's your point?
You haven't, by the way, essayed a single comment about how incompetently and badly the current government has been for the actual people who need government help and assistance.
realisticman
4 years ago
Bob Rae grows up, maybe
Ex-NDP premier Bob
Sock it to 'em Bob. To hell with loyalty, this is politics. Your future is at stake!