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Canada, Bring Home Omar Khadr
Young Guantanamo prisoner needs Ottawa rescue, says US military lawyer.
Khadr: captive of 'rigged system.'
A Canadian imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay since he was 15 years old won't see justice unless Ottawa brings him home, Omar Khadr's American military lawyer said yesterday.
Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler urged Canadians to write to their MPs about Khadr, now 20, who is facing trial in a "rigged system" that contravenes international law.
"If the rights of this particular Canadian citizen are going to be protected, it's going to be because the Canadian public and the Canadian government do something to protect them," said Kuebler, speaking at a luncheon in Vancouver hosted by the Canadian Institute for International Affairs.
If Ottawa doesn't intervene, Khadr might never be released, he added.
What makes a soldier?
Khadr is accused of throwing a grenade that killed U.S. Special Forces Sgt. Christopher Speer during a July 2002 battle in Khost, Afghanistan. Khadr was critically shot and sent, along with others captured during and after the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, to the American military base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
The killing of one soldier by another in battle is not ordinarily considered a war crime, but the U.S. subsequently designated detainees "unlawful enemy combatants" -- a term that theoretically strips them of rights laid out in the Geneva Convention. The term "is not found in Department of Defense manuals before 2004," noted Kuebler.
He said the Military Commissions Act, which Congress approved last year, was constructed on an ad hoc basis in order to convict people using evidence derived from torture and coercion. For one thing, the commissions don't consider non-uniformed combatants soldiers -- despite the fact that U.S. Special Forces and their allies in Afghanistan weren't wearing uniforms when they overthrew the Taliban in 2001.
Another quirk of the system is that it does not apply to American citizens, hundreds of whom have been convicted of terrorism-related offences in federal courts, according to Kuebler.
"As a matter of U.S. law today, a Canadian is worth less than an American in the matter of due process," he added.
Different passport, different treatment
Khadr is now the only Westerner left at Guantanamo. In May, David Hicks returned to Australia, after spending five years at Guantanamo, to serve the remainder of his sentence. He was the first person convicted under the Military Commissions Act and is due for release next year.
Kuebler said the Australian government only went to bat for Hicks after public outcry over the fairness of the trial, as well as living conditions at Guantanamo.
The British government successfully demanded repatriation of a number of citizens, and has also requested the return of five U.K. residents. Kuwait has managed to repatriate five of its citizens.
In contrast, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and former foreign affairs minister Peter MacKay have expressed confidence in the U.S. government's ability to provide a fair trial.
Canada has not only refused to lobby for Khadr's repatriation; Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) agents have interrogated him while in American custody.
"Their first action upon learning Omar was in detention in Guantanamo was to go down and take advantage of that," said Kuebler.
In 2005, CSIS defended its tactics, explaining it had an obligation to help protect national security by questioning Khadr, whose family members have admitted to having links with al-Qaida.
Child soldier or terrorist?
Omar Khadr's father, Ahmad Khadr, was allegedly a senior al-Qaida operative who began indoctrinating his son at age 10.
While the senior Khadr was killed by Pakistani soldiers in 2003, he could have been subject to prosecution for war crimes, according to Kuebler, who pointed out that international law does not lay blame on child soldiers.
"It lies with the adult person who put that child in combat."
Canada has been a leading advocate for the rights of children, said Kuebler, calling Ottawa's policy toward Khadr "inconsistent."
As a contrast, he pointed to the case of Ishmael Beah, who recently documented his experience as a child soldier in Sierra Leone in a best-selling book.
Beah admits to killing more people than he can count and describes incidents that would constitute war crimes if committed by an adult, including shooting prisoners. At 15, Beah began his rehabilitation process and has been lauded for conquering his horrific past.
Khadr still spends 23 hours a day confined to a cell where the lights are never turned off and cardboard covers the windows, Kuebler pointed out.
Do Canadians care?
Canadians are split on the question of what to do with Omar Khadr, as polling results released in June by Angus Reid reveal:
- Forty-six per cent agreed that Khadr should be treated as a child soldier, while 36 per cent disagreed.
- Forty-one per cent said Canada should actively intervene to secure his release, while 40 per cent disagreed.
- Fifty-one per cent said Khadr should face justice in Afghanistan.
Ambivalence to Khadr's fate may have something to do with statements of public support for terrorism made by members of his family. For example, in March 2004, Omar Khadr's mother, Maha, and his sister, Zaynab, expressed sympathy for al-Qaida and suicide bombers during a CBC interview.
Still, Kuebler has said he is surprised that the Canadian government has made no effort to repatriate one of its citizens.
The Angus Reid poll may provide a clue to Ottawa's reasoning: Conservative voters were most likely to say that Canada should not attempt to repatriate Khadr, while Liberal and NDP voters said exactly the opposite.
Related Tyee stories:
- Can Kids Be War Criminals?
Reviewed: A Long Way Gone: Memoir of a Boy Soldier. - Taliban Tenacity
Reviewed: Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia. - Afghanistan: Wrong Mission for Canada
The coolly reasoned case made by a leading expert in international law.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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109
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nightbloom
4 years ago
You're forgetting that the
You're forgetting that the Kkadr family also publicly made derogatory remarks about Canada, Canadians and Canadian society while enjoying the benefits of Canada's lavish support system for new arrivals, which none of the previous generations of arrivals - the Italians, Germans, Chinese, Ukrainians, etc. - were able to benefit from. The Khadrs bit that hand that feeds them.
Having said that, Guantanamo is an abominable creation that needs to be done away with. But I'm not sure how much political capital Canada should expend for this one individual, however. It's hardly a national priority.
G West
4 years ago
How old was the kid when this happened?
I criticize the government here and much of the culture of this place every day too nightbloom - and that support system for new arrivals - what do you actually know about it? Now maybe they're lying, but the last several taxi drivers I've had in Vancouver seemed to be as well educated as you and I.
So I don't know about lavish. And you might want to look at this story here at Tyee too: http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/09/12/HospitalityWorkers/
This case is an abomination - but I can't imagine pee wee doing anything about it as long as incurious george is still in the white house.
Did you notice how the initial reaction to the Iraqi Government 'firing' Black Water was the US questioning whether Iraqis had the 'right' to actually kick those drunken outlaws out of their own country? Gotta keep in mind who's boss; both in Iraq and in Canada.
Perhaps they'll send a few Blackwater contractors to Guantanamo! Wanna bet they won't be inmates?
Here's the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/middleeast/18cnd-iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
And here's the quote I liked:
Now that too is an abomination!
ubiquitous
4 years ago
um, nightbloom
Have we all not, at some point or another, complained and criticized about Canada, Canadians, and the Canadian government. Can we make our own assumptions about your undertone, or would you like to elaborate?
Chris H
4 years ago
5 years?
5 years without a trial and no prospect of any fair one in the future for a 15 year-old? Worse yet, can you imagine what this now 20 year-old's world view is now? That the Canadian government sees fit to sit back and do nothing is ludicrous. That other countries have secured their citizens and we haven't is a national disgrace. It is just another example of the Conservatives floundering on the world stage.
nightbloom
4 years ago
I'm more concerned about
I'm more concerned about Canadian citizens in Canadian jails for far less justifiable reasons...and probably under far worse conditions.
I sense the Left is about to embark on another "Free Mumia" celebrity bender. Spare us.
Van Isle
4 years ago
I thought the 1st duty of
I thought the 1st duty of our Government was to protect it's citizens, wherever they are in the world and whatever they have done. Both the Liberals and the Conservatives have been sorely lacking in that department; Arar is just one name that comes to mind. My father travelled extensivly when I was growing up and he got himself into a few pickles with various 3rd world tinpot police officials who are more often looking for a bribe. My father told me, when I began to travel that if I found myself in trouble to go to a British Consulate because his experience has been that the Canadian Consulate will do nothing. Don't forget that a Canadian is still a British Subject under British law.
G West
4 years ago
And Khadr isn't a Canadian citizen?
Spare me. We've heard it all before. This his nothing to do with the left and everything to do with justice and the rule of law.
While you’re at it, I guess you'll be out there demonstrating your ‘concern’ about the over-representation of First Nations' citizens in our Canadian jails.
This is a simple matter - pee wee complains to China about the treatment of a Canadian/Chinese citizen in one of their jails but he hasn't a word to say to george about a child being held for years without trial when both the British and the Australians have about their citizens? And have actually brought them home…
Give your head a shake.
dr evil
4 years ago
Your father was so right
I`ve found in my years of kicking about the globe in the 60`s...the British and American consulates were far more helpful and much friendlier than the Canadian.
I don`t know if Canadians realize just how hard assed Calvinist their country can be towards their own(?)
nightbloom
4 years ago
You're misinformed.
You're misinformed. Canadians are no longer British subjects.
Canada looks after its own, and then some....we bailed out three shiploads of hypenated Canadians in Lebanon, many of whom hadn't even set foot in Canada in the last quarter century. I think your "Liberals and Conservatives" caveat demonstrates your colours. The NDP hasn't done anything either (because it can't get itself elected).
dr evil
4 years ago
Quote:we bailed out three
only after a lot of public outcry nightbloom....they were very slow to respond
initially...you know that.
The Canadian Government of the days priority was showing unqualified support for Israels actions was it not?
You could be misinformed nightbloom..or perhaps propagandizing for your "side" ?
nightbloom
4 years ago
I don't endorse party
I don't endorse party politics - any party. I just don't like spin. I've already said Guantanomo should be dismantled (and reasonable reparations made). But don't expect crocodile tears for Khadr. There are a lot of "child soldiers" out there. Let's not create a celebrity-victim junket. There's a grieving family still waiting for the man he killed to come home.
On the Lebanon thing....the rescuees still complained about the lack of first-class accomodations on the cruise back. There was a lot of "special pleading", but I wouldn't imply that there was a mass groundswell demanding intervention. It's still questionable how much the Canadian government was obliged to intervene, and how much it can be expected to extend itself in similar cases in the future. We may have to re-examine the ease with which we hand out hyphenated citizenship to people who are "Canadians" only on paper in the most legalistic sense of the word.
G West
4 years ago
They weren't satisfied
With a half-full Airbus and pee wee to accompany them?
No one covered themselves with glory over Israel's effort to emasculate hezbollah.
A pox on all their houses.
Let's deal with a child accused - but held without trial or charge - for years by our supposedly biggest ally.
The only thing you're right about on this one my friend is that the Libs and the Conmen are equally guilty.
Bring him home and show that we're at least as compassionate and concerned about the rule of law as the Aussies or the Brits.
southdeltawalker
4 years ago
bring him back and then what.....?
Obviously Canada needs to put on the pressure to get him home.
But what do we do then?
Keep him in jail?
Give him therapy?
Try to "rehabilitate" him?
The article states that he "was critically injured".
What was the nature of his injuries? Does anyone know?
I would think the nature of his injuries and long term prognosis may have a lot to do with what happens to him when and if he returns to Canada.
snert
4 years ago
Better solution.
Deport the rest of the family.
Van Isle
4 years ago
Nightbloom, please read,
Nightbloom, please read, then try to understand. First, this has nothing to do with left and right issues; when I was young and stupid I was a member of both the Progressive Conservative and Liberal parties. When I became older and wiser I realized that we don't live in a democracy and quit politcal parties. 2nd, about Lebenon, those hyphinated Canadians probably went to the Canadian Consulate for help and didn't ask the British. 3rd, It's British law that makes a Canadian a British subject, not a Canadian law. Trudeau tried to take that away but he couldn't. Now do you understand
dr evil
4 years ago
If young Mr Khadr
was named say...Johnny Wilson..was blue eyed and blonde and hailed from West Vancouver say...would he still be in that hole?
nightbloom
4 years ago
No. Stop talking nonsense.
No. Stop talking nonsense. Canadians haven't been British subjects since the Canadian Citizenship Act came into effect on January 1, 1947. Multiple citizenship was allowed with the 1977 revisions. Facts, please.
Van Isle
4 years ago
Mr. Nightbloom. I have an
Mr. Nightbloom. I have an expired Canadian passport issued in 1976: On the bottom of the 1st inside page it says that "A Canadian citizen is a British Subject". It's obvious that you don't know the difference between a British Subject and a British Citizen.
seth
4 years ago
re I don't endorse party
nightbloom says
"...There's a grieving family still waiting for the man he killed to come home...."
You judge,jury, and executioner too?
Boy hasn't had his day in court and under the Shrub and his sidekick little Stevey Bin Harper he never will.
Its a faint hope but the few neocons who can actually read might try to follow the Pat Tillman (NFL star murdered in Afghanistan) story then ask yourselves what if anything coming out of the US military can be believed.
poindexter
4 years ago
I second deportation for the
I second deportation for the rest of the family...
Burgess
4 years ago
Just where does this person
Just where does this person belong? Egypt? Canada? Afghanistan? or ? Is it just possible that this present discussion is just blowing so much useless hot air that achieves nothing positive? We certainly don't hear Egypt wailing to take him back. We don't need anymore thugs, criminals and problems here in Canada. Canada has let in enough already. Let the US of A deal with him as Canada can't seem to get any of these 'situations' right. ie Air India, Ararh (sp?) Why bring back a future headache we really don't need? Trouble is Canadian passports have become the document that every thug/criminal/terrorist or whomever seems to want to possess for their twisted purposes.
Burgess
4 years ago
Khadr
Why is he Canada's problem? His first passport was Egyptian.
Lefty
4 years ago
Spring the boy
He is Canadian bring him home.
nightbloom
4 years ago
Burgess, thank you for
Burgess, thank you for injecting some rationality and realism into the discussion.
Van Isle said:
More strange people talking. There are only 'British Subjects', not two varieties of "citizenship"...It's a constitutional monarchy (newsflash, Van Isle!). And Canadian's haven't automatically been British Subjects since 1947.
Van Isle
4 years ago
Mr. Nightbloom, You asked
Mr. Nightbloom, You asked for facts which I gave you and you have ignored, whats your problem? It's obvious that you've been fed a bunch of BS for your whole life and can't accept it. Stubbornness and ignorance isn't a virtue. Dear editor, I'm really sorry I had to resort to name-calling but I couldn't help myself with having a verbal duel with numbskulls that let our Governments and massmedia do their thinking for them. If Mr. Nightblom requests it I would be happy to explain the differance between a British Subject and a British Citizen.
robin
4 years ago
unbelievable and shocking
unbelievable and shocking that the left would stoop to defending a [OFFENSIVE TERM REMOVED -TYEE.] like this one. his life was saved by a medic after he had shot another medic who happened to be a friend of the one who saved him. ship all the khadr's to the mountains of afghanistan where they belong.
nightbloom
4 years ago
Van Isle - don't bother
Van Isle - don't bother apologizing to the editor. Commenters always receive plenary indulgence when they're calling me names here. The point is whether Canadians are British subjects by default. They are not. That hasn't been the case for a long time now, and all the other loose ends were grandfathered long ago.
G West
4 years ago
Robin, babe
hugs and kisses, nice to have you back girl - it's lovely to get that perspective. I guess you're in favour of executing the Blackwater guard from Iraq who murdered Iraqis while drunk last December was fired and sent home for his effort.
I don't think the left had anything to do with that.
Are you aware what the normal 'sentence' for murder is in this country – especially for a ‘child’? That comes, mutatis mutandis, after a TRIAL, by the way.
When did the right wing lose its way in THIS country? Lots of people end up in a mess because of what their parents believe…strange!
Chris H
4 years ago
Ignore.
We still need an "ignore" function on The Tyee.
"Nightbloom, please read, then try to understand."
I learned that is never going to happen. It is better to not respond to him.
Van Isle
4 years ago
Chris H thanks for the
Chris H thanks for the advice, and you're right. I shouldn't get my knickers-in-a-knot over people who haven't been able to understand basic concepts.
robin
4 years ago
takes a scumbag to know one
takes a scumbag to know one eh alcibiades?
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
Feeling abused? Think you're a scumbag?
Some people on this site need to work on their self image.Sheesh.
G West
4 years ago
I love it when you talk dirty robin
You are such a babe!
James Burns
4 years ago
Racism
Why is it that people like nightbloom and robin can't accord someone with darker skin and a different faith the right to due process? Khadr my have committed a terrible act, but killing a US medic with a grenade during a firefight is far less heinous an act than that committed by US troops when they raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl, then murdered her and her family.
Some shots were fired in the other room and Private Steven Green emerged, saying "They're all dead. I just killed them." Green put down an AK-47 assault rifle and raped the girl while Cortez held her down, the hearing heard.
Special Agent Bierce said Green then picked up the weapon and shot the girl once, paused, and shot her several more times. Kerosene from a lamp was poured over the girl and someone - it was not clear who - set her alight."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article602731.ece
Why do American scumbags like that get a fair hearing and due process, with not a peep of protest from people like nightbloom and robin? Racism is a terrible and disgusting thing.
kootcoot
4 years ago
It was a BATTLEFIELD
Nightbloom:
Even Faux News and the rest of the mainstream press describes the incidents involving Kahdr as happening in BATTLE on a battlefield. Though I must admit to me some descriptions sound more like interlopers from halfway around the world invading a house in Afghanistan which was obviously full of "insurgents" since most of them are dead. Indeed isn't Omar the only survivor from the house?
Come to my house with a bunch of guns and see how friendly I am [OTHER COMMENTER'S NAME REMOVED. -EDITOR.].
robin
4 years ago
'Why is it that people like
'Why is it that people like nightbloom and robin can't accord someone with darker skin and a different faith the right to due process?' now that there is some good old left wing babel if i've ever heard it. defend him to the hilt because he has brown skin and a different faith. the pool doesn't get much more shallow than that. alcibiades/gwest; glad to see you've cleared some time from your busy schedule to comment on the tyee.
James Burns
4 years ago
Ah robin, you prove my
Ah robin, you prove my point. You can't even acknowledge an atrocity by American soldiers. Soldiers who were accorded due process despite the utter horror of their acts. Your double-standards are a indictment of your lack of ethical judgement.
G West
4 years ago
You are a beautiful, spirited woman Robin
SO wonderful that you decided to drop in and contribute something of an intellectual nature...highly spirited women sometimes don't have the intellect to go along with their highly-strung and emotional nature.
ANd there never are enough intelligent right-wing women commenting here. Let's hear some more from you, please.
kootcoot
4 years ago
This would help how?
As if robin dropping by would improve the intelligent right-wing women ratio. In fact did I just commit an oxymoron? Oh no, all conservative/right wing nuts aren't dumb, but most dumb folks are right wing nut/conservatives. And the smart exceptions are busy satisfying their greed mostly, not making fools of themselves trying to discuss serious issues with intelligent people.
BTW robin, no one was saying ONLY brown skinned folks deserved justice or due process. G was saying that everyone is entitled to due process, all colors. If Omar had gotten wired on speed and drunk and stolen a car and killed someone in 2002, he would undoubtably be out of jail long ago already, no matter what type complexion he happened to have.
How come you don't have a reason why it is cool for Blackwater and/or US soldiers to kill and/or rape at will and maybe get fired at most. If Blackwater comes here to say, defend Bush or Cheney or the Village Idiot missing from one of the Carolinas, can they kill you, would that be okay?
robin
4 years ago
i thought for sure that the
i thought for sure that the last wednesday of the month was welfare wednesday.
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
Robin's calender
Ah, sweetie, you need to look at the calender again. And improve your self image.
robin
4 years ago
ah the blonde's witticisms
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -EDITOR]
JIm
4 years ago
"Arabs by heritage and
"Arabs by heritage and Canadians by citizenship, the Khadrs have mostly lived in Pakistan and Afghanistan. More than a decade ago, the patriarch of the clan was held in Pakistan under suspicion of financing a deadly embassy bombing.
Under public pressure from the Canadian news media during a 1996 Team Canada trade mission, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien raised the issue of Ahmed Said Khadr's case with Pakistan's prime minister.
The Liberals have been criticized for that intervention on behalf of a Canadian citizen ever since. The elder Mr. Khadr was eventually let go (a few weeks later) and went on to put several of his sons in al-Qaeda training camps. He was listed by United Nations as a key Osama bin Laden associate after the 9/11 attacks." Globe and Mail
Can you say deja-vu?
That was the last time a Khadr pleaded for help from the Canadian government. He then promptly went back to being a close confidant of Bin Laden during the peak of his murderous reign. How many murders was he complicit in? 2000? 3000? But the Canadian people demanded their citizen be released. Remember he was a "100% innocent man" being persecuted by an unjust government. The same rhetoric was coming from the family as we see now. Almost word for word. The same rhetoric was coming from the bleeding hearts as well.
The Khadr's have been Canadians twice in their life. That was the first time. This is the second. The good ole Canadian when convenient.
I'm surprised more terrorists don't do this. You live in Canada for a couple years then you can scam the system for the rest of your life. You get the infidels to bail you out when you are in a bad situations. Once they fall for that scam you go back to help in the Jihad. Smart man, he picked the perfect country to con. He conned us once and now some of you will fall for it again. But I forgot you’re the smart ones so you know this already.
robin
4 years ago
careful jim. you just
careful jim. you just dissed people with brown skin and a different faith, and you made all kinds of sense. the hit squad's will be out to get you on this site. wait for it, should be any second now...
G West
4 years ago
Robin, baby....
That business about time of the month...way too much information for me - some things are just better left to Prince Philip and the imagination.
Still, I like that spunky manner and the insouciant attitude – especially the little flip you give to your bangs when you’re angry. You might want to learn a little bit about what a JUSTICE SYSTEM in a democracy is all about – pick up a couple of books from the library and check ‘em out next time you’re under the dryer.
Stay away from the American glossy fashion mags at the stylist’s though, many of the people down there seem to have forgotten that justice and revenge aren’t the same thing.
Still, there are a few Canadians down there like Graydon Carter who aren’t afraid to actually confront what’s happened to the land of the brave and the home of the free.
dr evil
4 years ago
John Lind
GWest...was that young American kid fighting and captured wounded with the Taliban..was his name John Lind? Can`t quite remember..after his trial what did he get was it 15 years? Where is he serving his sentence...remember at all?
G West
4 years ago
Yep! I do remember
I think he was from California...as I recall John Walker Lindh was his name I think..
Seems to me he didn't get a really "fair" trial but he was 20 or 21 when he ran afoul of the US Army in Afghanistan..
But at least he got a trial.
dr evil
4 years ago
Right Right but not hyphenated
John Walker Lindh
Thanks..did he do interrogation/punishment time at Gitmo?
I`ll look him up I was searching by Lind maybe adding the H will provide more...I see Stephane Dion today speaking about Kadhr..a fair trial a must ..and the same rights as any other Canadian.
I think nightbloom mentioned hyphenated Canadians and suggested the advantages of being a "hyphenated Canadian".
One might say it is to young Khadrs disadvantage ..being a hyphenated person.
Neil Bissoondath has a lot to say regarding the cultural mosaic versus the American melting pot with regard to immigrants.
He says actually a lot of new Canadians would prefer being just Canadian more like the U.S. approach...American first.. rather than the hyphenated status so many retain here.
dr evil
4 years ago
Yaser Esam Hamdi
was the other American soldiering with the taliban and captured by U.S. forces. He was sent to Guantanamo but when found to be an American citizen was immediately transterred to Federal Prisons, first Virginia then South Carolina.
In 2004 he was released to Saudi Arabia as he had dual U.S.-Saudi citizenship under the condition he renounce his U.S. citizenship.
The Saudis promised to keep an eye on his wherabouts and not allow himm to travel outside of the Kingdom.
Lindh confessed under torture but agreed to drop charges in a plea bargain with Michael Chertoff for reduced charges.
dr evil
4 years ago
I guess being hyphenated
worked to Yasers advantage. Funny how that hyphenation stuff works.
dr evil
4 years ago
And the Saudis
funded the taliban and...
GW Bush said John Walker Lindh was " some Marin County hot-tubber"
dr evil
4 years ago
Things are not always what they seem
>> http://www.alternet.org/story/31211/?page=2
nightbloom
4 years ago
Quote:Why is it that people
Oh, please. Puhleeeeeeze...! Right on cue too. We don't agree with you because we're racist islamophobes. How very 'liberal-left' of you.
Actually, I'll reiterate for the third time that I believe Guantanamo should be dismantled and its prisoners either charged or paid compensation. I just don't think Khadr should be made into a cause celebre.
dr evil
4 years ago
cause celebre
certainly didn`t do much for John Walker Lindh.
Don`t quite see the cause celebre issue with Omar Khadr nightbloom.
It has been five years now..and not much said about him up to this point.
Personally, I`d just like to hear what HE has to say..not his sister or mother or robin and the posse ..but his own version of events. His own story.
dr evil
4 years ago
liberal left
nightbloom..you have stated that you are apolitical and yet so often use the "liberal-left" label in your arguments.
Perhaps you could maybe change it up occasionally and use "secular humanists" instead of "liberal-left"..just once in a while.
And you represent what? The Catholic Right?
I see the Iraq/Afghanistan wars as racist. Can`t imagine a primarily "white" country being subjected to such atrocity for so long. The whole thing is obviously bloody racist.
Even the Serbs after being demonized didn`t warrant full scale shock and awe. they are ,after all, primarily white.
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
Bottle blonde?
No, robin I'm not GW. But you are right my blonde is not out of a bottle. Stopped streaking and or dyeing my hair few years back wanted to enjoy my natural colour before the greys started to come. Tell me, girl, do you know why you called yourself a scumbag?
nightbloom
4 years ago
Dr. evil - I was responding
Dr. evil - I was responding to James Burns' bald statement that I personally am racist and anti-Islam solely because we've got a different take on the priority that should be given to the Khadr affair. You're just going to have to accept that we've got a difference of opinion here without getting poisonous about it.
No, I don't represent the 'Catholic Right' (not sure that exists in North America), and No I never claimed to be apolitical, just not stumping for any one party. I just find it tedious how some people always pull "-ist" words out whenever they encounter alternate viewpoints to that which they hold as fundamental(ist) dogmatic truths.
robin
4 years ago
and so clever too! guess
and so clever too! guess you aren't gwest/alcibiades/??? after all.
cboo44
4 years ago
Khadr
If Khadr wanted to play soldier at 14 and 15 years of age, and left Canada to do so, then haul him out of Gitmo and place him ever so gently back where he was grabbed. It's called repatriation. Same thing if his name was John Q. Smith and he was doing the same thing. Why should Canada be a haven for Jihadists and gangsters and provide a revolving door for them?
kootcoot
4 years ago
Catholic Right
Nightbloom
By fundamental(ist) dogmatic truths, do mean "due process" or the "Rule of Law." Those are basic principles that supposedly transcend party lines. Of course watching the Campbell Crime Family, Bu$hCo and Pee Wee Harper's gang in action, I guess it is a partisan issue because it is pretty clear none of those three governments have the slightest respect for the rule of law or due process.
As far as there being no Catholic Right, give your head a shake. They may not be as outrageous as the Fundie North American Taliban/Left Behind Crowd whose biggest issues are abortion and same sex marriage (with recreational meth and young boys for recreation) rather than the values of baby jeebus. However, they are definitely there and very involved in trying to effect public policy, when they can spare time from hiding priests from child molestation charges.
BTW- Nelson BC is in dire need of a Bishop for the Diocese as they haven't been able to replace the current one who is past the retirement age of 75, and he is anxious to retire. Maybe you could apply!
At least the Pope refused to see Condi Rice, heck that makes me like the old fascist for a day or two.
James Burns
4 years ago
If it walks like a duck...
Yes nightbloom I do find it interesting that you consider the right to due process a fundamentalist dogmatic truth.
The racism I point out is based on recognizing a willingness on the part many people to tolerate the abuse of the rights of one person, but not another, with the primary difference being their faith and the melanin content of their skin. Even the nature of their actions take second place. Muslims, particularly those of Middle Eastern ancestry (or anyone who looks like them), are our media and government hyped enemies of our current era. They are continually dehumanized, particularly in the popular press. They become a "them" to which all manner of acts are unacceptable and all manner of punishments are never too extreme. You only need bear witness to the suffering of the Iraqi population to see that. As for what is defined as "us" all manner of acts are excusable, and again the genocide going on in Iraq is the best current example. For "us" only the scapegoated bad apples deserve punishment, but only as long as their crimes can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It is a double-standard, and it disgusts me. It is the epitome of murderous tribal stupidity.
Nightbloom, in the past you've droned on and on about the "superiority" of western culture, yet you cannot seem to actually practice the values you hold so dear. It is the very cases that put our values to a real test that determine both the legitimacy and the strength of those values. Unfortunately, the "west" has failed that test terribly.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Where REAL Newspeople Go
For all the bashing the MSM trys to give the blogosphere, it's amazing how more and more of them show up on blogs. I guess even REAL reporters and editors have to go somewhere to get actual, you know, real news. It must be scary for them also, being confronted with proof of how superflous and irrelevant they are.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Omar Khadr is facing trial
Omar Khadr is facing trial in a "rigged system" that contravenes international law.
Scary shite.
http://therealnews.com/web/index.php?thisdataswitch=0&thisid=441&thisview=item
This is the real value of our so called Western leaders and disgusts me to no end as we are just as guilty by our complacency in allowing these atrocious "War Crimes Against Humanity" to continue.
Is this Our future with SPP's? "Super Prison Planet"
We are all Brothers and Sisters on this planet called earth to exist by helping each and every one as equals! Will we be next?
Only the war mongers, money mongers and power mongers who are few and scared of us becoming "ONE"! I'd say "ENOUGH"
What is really going on in Afghanistan?
snert
4 years ago
Is that better or worse than......
....having your throat slit with a dull knife?
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
Thanks, robin. First I was
Thanks, robin. First I was cute now I'm clever, oh, well I've been called worse. Cheers.
BLONDE PITBULL
4 years ago
Snert...
Since the idea of either turns my stomach, I vote for neither.
Dave A
4 years ago
Red Friday
I'm probably off topic here, but I sat in disgust and revulsion as I watched CBC tv "the National" Tuesday night, with Peter championing (it seems) the
Afghanistan mission, and the Ottawa "Red Friday" episode, along with "Rock'em!,Sock'em!" Cherry, and "Scumbags" Hillier. I
harked back to the CBC war-time newsreels of 1943, ( I was six years old) detailing the Nuremburg rallies and could almost
hear the shouts "Sieg Heil!" and "Heil Hillier!". I certainly hope this thug doesn't become our next Prime Minister! Talk
about conditioning people's minds! Our people and military deserve better.
chevy
4 years ago
Leave him there
He's been bred into a terrorist family.
He's going to come back here and plot
to injure more of us. Forget that, leave
him there is what I say. I heard what his
family said about us Canadians. Maybe
someone should find the tape about that
and play it again.
G West
4 years ago
chevy
Maybe you should read this:
http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/06/11/KidCriminals/
And then spend some time contemplating the concept of punishment without trial.
Are you feeling threatened these days? Perhaps you should see a medical professional about that.
G West
4 years ago
Dave A
Much agree about that 'red-fest' on CBC. A low point for a once-proud and independent news organization.
I guess the government decided to co-opt it from within rather than sell it off to the Aspers and Torstar.
Sad!
Dave A
4 years ago
Hillier for P.M.?
My concern is just who is running the country, Harper or Hillier? Are we evolving to the point where the military become the government? As Canadians, we are very ctitical of other countries with military dictatorships eg. Pakistan, Phillipines, etc.(U.S. allies, by the way). The CBC seems to avoid providing any balance on their programs, and allowing the Defence department to promote their "defining moments" spin, without any rebut.
Dave A
4 years ago
Hillier for P.M.?
My concern is just who is running the country, Harper or Hillier? Are we evolving to the point where the military become the government? As Canadians, we are very ctitical of other countries with military dictatorships eg. Pakistan, Phillipines, etc.(U.S. allies, by the way). The CBC seems to avoid providing any balance on their programs, and allowing the Defence department to promote their "defining moments" spin, without any rebut.
Dave A
4 years ago
sorry.....
I clicked twice!
robin
4 years ago
the khadr's are canadians of
the khadr's are canadians of convenience, as are the lebanese who took advantage of our soft immigration policies to fly back to canada last summer during their 'civil' war. most of them went back and will whine and cry about not being treated well next time there's an incident. none of these people pay any taxes when they're living in their homeland, but it cost canadians $80 million to get them back here.
G West
4 years ago
AW Robin you're so cute when you're angry
That's the cost of having a civilized country.
Perhaps you should ask pee wee why he didn't fill the Airbus with the Canadian Lebanese he was so interested in saving?
kootcoot
4 years ago
Hillier for PM?
How's his French?
The US used to have ex-generals for Preznit (Washington, Grant, Ike) but now that they are really getting in to war-mongering more than ever they tend to go for draft-dodgers and AWOLs.
James Burns
4 years ago
Yeah more hypocris from Batman's sidekick
Robin, your historical revisionism is pathetic. There was no civil war in Lebanon, it was a war with Israel, a war the Israelis did not win. But tell me would you feel the same way about white Canadians living in the US who needed rescuing from a disaster, as you do about Lebanese Canadians?
What about what happened during 9/11. Canada accepted all the US bound flights at great cost and great potential danger to Canadian lives. And most of the passengers were American, not even Canadian citizens. Why aren't you complaining about those costs, and that danger?
robin
4 years ago
only a bona-fide lefty could
only a bona-fide lefty could compare those kind of apples and oranges. you guys are remarkably adept at that. well done. but you're wrong if you think it was not also a civil war, so i'd suggest you're the one that needs to brush up on your knowledge of international affairs.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Bona-Fido Bonehead
Robin Right Whack - What is a "bona-fide" lefty? Have you seen anybody's bona-fides.
I'm surprised you remember to breath!
nightbloom
4 years ago
James Burns - Give your head
James Burns - Give your head a shake. I've never droned abou the "superiority" of Western Culture. We're Western, and so are our cultural references, the best of which should be acknowledged and preserved. That's all I've ever said. I *never* said we're "superior". You're full of shit, as usual. Your attempt to skate around your personal accusation of racism and Islamophobia is pure double-talk. You're just another brand of fundamentalist who clearly thinks that anyone not in lock-step with your worldview is in your way.
G West
4 years ago
You're a beautiful woman Robin
But this:
is complete and utter crap!
I think you need to check your recent history.
Israel attacked Lebanon.
Perhaps you'll pay more attention to the Catholic World News...a pretty right wing organization last time I checked.
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=45335
Now, why don't you just work on being vivacious and stunning and leave the politics to others?
But, if you want to put on a little show, go ahead, it’s going to be a quiet weekend here at Tyee by the looks of the open stories around here.
snert
4 years ago
Isreal didn't attack Lebanon
There is a significant power struggle going on to the extent that Israel's transgression may very well have been welcomed by a significant portion of Lebanon's population.
I don't think that could be considered an attack on the country, per se. Not only that but the armed forces of Lebanon just spent a significant amount of time accomplishing the same goal that Israel had in mind when they crossed the border and that was to clear out terrorists. This is costing them dearly in assassinated politicians.
An attack on Lebanon, I think not.
nightbloom
4 years ago
Don't want to intrude on
Don't want to intrude on your sparring with robin, Gwest, but I feel compelled to observe that your comments towards her are far more sexist than anything I've ever written here, notwithstanding your perennial charge of misogyny.
robin
4 years ago
you're wrong again
you're wrong again gwest/alcibiades/????. as usual. i didn't deny that there was a war between israel and lebanon. i said that there was also a civil war in lebanon, and if you don't realize that [PERSONAL AND OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -TYEE EDITOR.]i doubt that anyone is even slightly amused. have a nice weekend glued to your computer.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Buying the Lie!
Let's face it snert, robin and the rest of the ill informed. Israel attacked Lebanon, or perhaps to be more accurate they attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon. I know disinformation is spread about "border incursions" and the entire beginnings of that conflict are murky.
However based on the evidence I have seen and sifting through the conflicting stories, it seems to me more likely that the IDF was inside Lebanon when the original fire fight happened and the Israeli soldiers captured. It isn't as if Israel respects the borders of its neighbors, as evidenced by the still unexplained air attack INSIDE Syria earlier this month. Incursions into Palestinian lands and Gaza are routine
The most damning event that makes me think Israel was the instigator however was the Israeli attack on the UN Obsevation Post that killed a Canadian and others. What had those observers observed that made the IDF decide to "eliminate" the witnesses?
I'll say one thing though, the Israeli treatment of their neighbors (and previous inhabitants of the area) should help North Americans of European heritage feel a bit less guilty about their treatment of the First Nations - though that was immoral as well.
G West
4 years ago
nightbloom
You always have had a tin ear for satire.
Do a little inquiry into exactly who this 'robin' is and you'll understand there's nothing sexist or misogynist in my 'affection' for Robin.
As for you Robin there is simply no doubt that the Israelis started the war with Lebanon in response to an alleged (and believe me there are lots of allegations) Hezbollah incursion into Israel. You might want to read a little more widely than the National Post though.
You simply - as you always have failed to do no matter how you sign your poisonous contributions - don't know what you're talking about 'girl'.
Snert: read the piece from the Catholic World News - you want to fight with the Vatican - go ahead!
As for revisionism, you want to see something really bizarre - have a look at this:
http://link.frontpagemag.com/?32-91-14754-272
G West
4 years ago
Nope Robin - you can't even recall what you actually wrote
So, as a kind of memento, I'll copy and paste it in here for you:
Not a single word about the war with Israel - the one that created the flood of Lebanese Canadians who were desperate to get out and return to Canada.
Here's a story about 7 Canadians killed by an Israeli air strike...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html?ref=rss
Were they just trying to avoid an 'incident' too?
[PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. - EDITOR.]
dr evil
4 years ago
I like Phil Rockstrohs line
about conservatives...so eager to embrace false narratives.
dr evil
4 years ago
Ya gotta love it!
dr evil
4 years ago
more Rockstroh..gasbag monologist
In addition, it has spawned a culture ridden with public relations fabulists and media-savvy confidence artists who tell us that the taste of corporate ass-suck is the ambrosia of the gods. The locked-down, stultifying mindset and ideological barbarianism of present day conservatism is directly linked to the steep decline of the quality of life in the United States.
G West
4 years ago
I liked this too, dr evil ... apropos of everything
"...As a result, a generation has inherited power who are devoid of the concept of causation and consequence. Ergo, we have developed a political class who rule by narratives of denial and shallow self-justification. An example of this is the blaming of the people of Iraq for the blood-drenched debacle that has resulted from the illegal and immoral invasion of their nation. As well as, an enabling cadre of media elitists who served as cheerleaders for the invasion, because they deemed it to be good for business, and, to this day, are unwilling to admit their complicity."
I can think of several parallels right here in Canada...not least the recent spectacle at Montebello, eh?
dr evil
4 years ago
indeed indeed GW
" shallow justification"...so right on.
Rockstroh can really riff..reminds me of Coltrane.
robin
4 years ago
'there is simply no doubt
'there is simply no doubt that the Israelis started the war with Lebanon in response to an alleged (and believe me there are lots of allegations) Hezbollah incursion into Israel.' i haven't heard anyone defending israel's tactics, but only a narrow-minded zealot could defend an organization like Hezbollah. [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. ONCE AGAIN, ROBIN, PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE IN PERSONAL INSULTS.]
James Burns
4 years ago
Nightbloom, I've hardly
Nightbloom, I've hardly skated around the issue of racism in this thread. I've pointed out the double-standard of treatment for Khadr compared to American soldiers as being only explainable due to racism. You consider Khadr to be unworthy of due process. Yet you have never suggested that individuals of a paler complexion who are guilty of far worse crimes have their rights suspended. I'm pointing out that hypocrisy, and I'm providing an explanation for it, as I can see no other, and you've certainly provided me with no evidence to believe otherwise, you just deny.
As for your belief in the superiority of western culture, I never claimed you wrote those exact words. You simply extol its virtues (at least up until the feminism of the last 40 years or so), and underplay its hypocrisy. That is particularly true when you compare it to other cultures around the world.
G West
4 years ago
Oh Really!
Where did I attack anyone?
That's your department girl, not mine - and you won't find my defence of Hezbollah anywhere either.
As usual, you're more interested in slinging mud at your usual targets - better you should use it as a face pack next time you are at the beauty salon.
As for Israel's tactics, I think you should spend a little time reading something like the New Yorker - for example Seymour Hersh - if you're looking for that sort of thing.
Let me quote a few lines for you:
The Bush Administration, however, was closely involved in the planning of Israel’s retaliatory attacks. President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney were convinced, current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials told me, that a successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign against Hezbollah’s heavily fortified underground-missile and command-and-control complexes in Lebanon could ease Israel’s security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American preemptive attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear installations, some of which are also buried deep underground."
“The White House was more focused on stripping Hezbollah of its missiles, because, if there was to be a military option against Iran’s nuclear facilities, it had to get rid of the weapons that Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation at Israel. Bush wanted both. Bush was going after Iran, as part of the Axis of Evil, and its nuclear sites, and he was interested in going after Hezbollah as part of his interest in democratization, with Lebanon as one of the crown jewels of Middle East democracy.”
“A Pentagon consultant said that the Bush White House ‘has been agitating for some time to find a reason for a preemptive blow against Hezbollah.’ He added, ‘It was our intent to have Hezbollah diminished, and now we have someone else doing it.’”
Or, if you prefer something a little more academic, you could read this:
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3444
from Stephen Zunes in Foreign Policy in Focus.
Now who is that narrow-minded zealot you've been talking about sweetie?
What we’re actually discussing here is whether a 14 year old Canadian deserves a trial or is worthy of spending even more time rotting in an American cage – remember?
dr evil
4 years ago
moonbatman
someone flashed the bat signal..moonbat is out and on the loose!
kootcoot
4 years ago
The True Conservative Icon
If you actually give it a bit of thought you will realize that, even though neo-cons are greed-mongers trying to convince everybody else that greed is a virtue, perhaps their favorite creature is the Strawman. The one they always resort to when confronted with logic and facts.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Rick Hillier has become
Rick Hillier has become rogue military leader (a very dangerous combination) and needs to be taken to task "FORTHWITH" by his superiors USOur three Government Parties!
http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/news/features/selling-the-mission-070918.wmv
Kadar should be brought back to Canada and charged by our civil courts and sentenced to our prison system if found guilty.
snert
4 years ago
Who cares about the Vatican.
Another institution that has defiled history with it's exploits.
As a normal 14 year old, maybe but as the spawn of hatred forget it. Any concessions would just sanction further similar behaviour.
This little beast is different from the African kids that get shanghaied into fighting for whatever cause they can be intimidated into following.
cboo44 had the right idea. Send the little b...... back to where they found him then deport the rest of the family right behind him.
kootcoot: it's all lies. It's a major power struggle. What makes you think that there might be some semblance of truth in that reality?
nightbloom
4 years ago
James Burns
Oh C'mon. You know what u said. And you know what I've said. Grow up.
Notwithstanding your skill at written self-expression, I've come to the conclusion that your actual age is roughly between 17 and 22, JB. It's showing.
G West
4 years ago
Why isn't this offensive speech?
This little beast is different from the African kids that get shanghaied into fighting for whatever cause they can be intimidated into following.
cboo44 had the right idea. Send the little b...... back to where they found him then deport the rest of the family right behind him.
snert
robin
4 years ago
be careful what you wish for
be careful what you wish for gwest/alcibiades/????. you're the most offensive poster i've ever seen.
G West
4 years ago
Aw c'mon girl
Can't we just talk?
Dennis J
4 years ago
Khadr belongs to Canada
What ever you say or judge, this kid still belongs to us. Let him be returned to Canada and our legal system will judge him AND protect him. Life in Gitmo can't be good - even for experienced fighters. He was a child, no doubt influenced by others. We owe him that. Let Canadians judge him according to our system of justice - not the US.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Dregs Galore!
Boy, this thread has brought out the dregs of humanity dredging the sub-cellar of their less than stellar consciousness.
snert - the following statement (or collection of words)
doesn't even make any sense, but what else is new. And robin, you must be the girl that "loves to hate."
snert
4 years ago
What's the difference
kootcoot
between a lie and disinformation? Or are you like G West and always have your own hidden meaning.
kootcoot
4 years ago
Pronouns and indefinite adjectives!
Snert, your recent "reply(?)" is meaningless and nonsensical also. Perhaps it's because you don't seem to understand that pronouns and indefinite adjectives are kinda like shorthand words. When it isn't clear what they are referring to, then statements just become meaningless strings (programmer talk for a series of characters in a particular order). To illustrate.
What is It? Is it that is all lies and it that is a power struggle the same "it?"
Which reality is "that" reality? I thought there was just "reality" and it was real. My bad, cuz I guess you have your own "personal" reality. I thought there was just one reality that we all shared, as I said, my bad!
If you are going to argue, debate or discuss issues with literate adults, you should brush up on grammar and sentence construction. All a sentence needs is a subject and a verb - the rest is icing. Pronouns are meaningless unless it is clear what they stand for.
snert
4 years ago
Thank you for the disection.
kootcoot
Rats! The 'Fog' of debate. Except, you know full well what I'm talking about so your reply is meaningless as well.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Kadar is just a smoke screen
Kadar is just a smoke screen of convenience for the masses!
There is only one thing that's involving all of us, and that is we Canada are being sold out, turned over to the war mongering NWO by traitors in our midst Federally and Provincially!
No media coverage on the biggest scandal in BC, Our BC Rail was needed as an intrecal part of their NWO superhighway!
Not a word about S Harper selling off Our Federal blgs at fire sale prices so we can rent them back at huge profits for the new scum landlords!
Gordo giving away 500 of our rivers etc