The Village a Train Ate
Canada Line work nails merchants. Should taxpayers save them?
RAVaged: Simon and Sora Kim. Photo by Brian Powell.
"Welcome to Cambie Village," the sign reads, amidst traffic barriers, tractors and empty stores strung along the road.
"Does this look like a village to you?" asked Simon Kim, 37, whose family-owned Don Don Noodle shop will soon close, another casualty of the Canada Line tunnel ripping a huge trench along Vancouver's Cambie Street.
"Driving by that banner, both my wife and I were just laughing. The village as it was is dying," Kim said.
An NDP MLA hopes new legislation might still rescue the village, sparking a sharp debate in the legislature earlier this week.
And as the toll mounts, some observers are pointing to Seattle as an example of how the whole easily predicted mess should have been handled.
'Bunch of dummies'
On Sunday morning, Simon Kim stood in the sun and listened to NDP MLA Gregor Robertson describe the Small Business Fairness and Protection Act he was submitting the next day. The bill would provide property tax relief and interest free loans to merchants rocked by the construction. Kim smiled sadly and said, "It's good. Gregor's a great guy. He's very well-intentioned. But it's too little, and too late."
At the 2005 launch of what was then called the RAV line, Vancouver's mayor-elect, Sam Sullivan, acknowledged that construction would mean "difficulties for our citizens and our businesses," but said everyone involved would "work hard to make sure we minimize these disruptions."
"They're treating us like a bunch of dummies," said Helmut Petri, who owns Montreux Jewels Ltd. on Cambie at 16th. "I don't think they've done a thing to minimize disruptions."
The line will be the third in Vancouver and will connect downtown Vancouver to Richmond and the international airport. In the beginning of the project, merchants were told that construction would move quickly from block to block and sidewalk access would be maintained. That was when public consultations led merchants to believe that construction would be bored tunnel. But when SNL-Lavalin got the contract to do the construction, the project shifted to the cheaper, more disruptive method of cut and cover.
When the method was revealed in winter of 2005, one city councillor accused RAV backers of pulling a "bait and switch" on citizens who would feel the impact.
Today, the tunneling is at the core of the sense of betrayal that shrouds the business closures, Petri said. It's taken far longer than many business owners say they were led to expect. It has snarled traffic and forced many smaller businesses to close as walk-in and drive-by customers have dwindled.
'Never said it'
Alan Dever is director of communications for the Canada Line. He sounds irritated when told that local business people believe they were deceived.
"I don't know who promised bored tunnel," he said. "The company doing the work never talked about a bored tunnel. In the winning perspective, they talked about making sure by the end of the project, there'd be a tunnel to the end of 64th. The company that won the bid never said it was going to be bored tunnel.
"I don't know that somebody didn't say it," Dever said with a laugh, "but not since the actual company has been selected to build the line, which is InTransit BC. They've never said it. It was never part of their plan."
Dever added that "Cambie Village has always struggled. Some businesses are closing, but a lot of new businesses are opening."
He cites the case of Tomato, a neighbourhood institution fleeing to the Kitsilano area of town. "Tomato Café is leaving but there's a restaurant moving in right away called Daddy O's from Edmonton. That space is going to be immediately filled."
Still, he says, "We know people are suffering there and that's why we are doing what we can to help."
Help has come in the form of a $1.3 million grant for marketing. "We've provided some communication and business liaison committees in Vancouver and Richmond with this money. We've said use it as you see fit to help through the construction period. We've provided money for window washing and for signage."
Saved in Seattle
Petri winces at the notion that $1.3 million is much help. "Look at Seattle," he says. "They know what help is."
Seattle is constructing a light rail line on a 14-mile route from downtown Seattle to Tukwila. Completion is scheduled for mid-2009. As with Cambie Village, many of the affected businesses in Seattle were owned by non-whites, primarily Asians, according to news reports.
But Seattle apparently took a much more proactive approach to making sure businesses had a chance to survive the loss of traffic and that the area retained its character.
Seattle created the Ranier Valley Community Development Fund (CDF). The fund's website said it would provide a source of investment that was concerned with the area's well-being, its cultural diversity, livability and sustainability. Its aim was to strengthen and preserve the community, "not only by investing in tangible assets such as businesses and facilities, but also by building networks of relationships and trust that would allow the community to participate in determining their future well being."
In 2006, The Beacon Hill News and South District Journal reported that the fund was succeeding. It had approved $7.5 million in mitigation funds" to help affected businesses through loans. In the beginning of the project, the fund had identified 274 businesses along the corridor. Of those, 230 still remained.
"Businesses that stayed were eligible for $30,000 payments, while those that relocated could receive $50,000," the newspaper wrote. "Exceptional hardships entitled businesses to an additional $20,000," said CDF director Jamie Garcia. Garcia said he expected the Seattle city council to approve an additional $50 million to pull the area through to completion of the line.
"We really care," Dever, of the Canada Line, said, referring to the $1.5 million grant.
Bob Waters, who manages properties along Cambie, is skeptical. "What's a million dollars over this whole line from here to Richmond?" he asks. "If you split it up between every merchant, you'd be lucky to get $500 per merchant."
Roberston vs. Falcon
After Robertson submitted his bill on Monday, he and Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon squared off during question period.
Robertson: "Over 500 small businesses along the RAV line corridor are being devastated by losses in revenue averaging over 40 per cent. That means well over $100 million in lost sales for those businesses over the year of construction chaos in front of their stores. With more than one small business a week closing down right now, the situation is dire."
"The premier said yesterday that there are 'major efforts to try and take care of it.' Does the premier honestly believe that the $1.5-million marketing fund that he calls a major effort is fair to offset over $100 million in lost sales to small business?"
Falcon: "I'm always interested in the comments of the member opposite. But you know, I also pay attention to people from that business community and representatives from the Cambie Village Business Improvement Association. One of them, Leonard Schein, had a few things to say. He pointed out, for example, that in recent months 10 new businesses have opened their doors or have expressed their intention to locate, including a new pharmacy, several new restaurants, a Capers Community Market. But he goes on to say: 'But exaggerated statements related to recent business closures in this area only serve to deter potential customers and hurt local businesses.'
"I actually agree with him, because the fact of the matter is, this member is calling for a solution that would be quite unprecedented.
"No level of government anywhere across Canada provides that kind of intervention. Apparently, this member opposite believes we need to subsidize a bank, a Safeway, a Superstore, a Starbucks and all of the other major big businesses that these people always rail against, that that member always rails against. Suddenly he's calling for the provincial government to provide relief. Well, that's not the answer. The fact of the matter is, there's a $1.5-million dollar fund that TransLink has put together to help those folks, and it's doing its job."
Robertson: "Well, only this minister would think that big banks are small business. And perhaps the minister hasn't seen the letter of support from the Cambie Village Business Association in support of compensation, as I have brought forward to the house. This premier, this minister thinks that the paltry $1.5 million to put up some billboards along the line will cut it, and they're dead wrong.
"This government's support for business only seems to apply to the huge multinational construction companies that are digging up the city. We're talking about hundreds of small businesses, thousands of employees losing their livelihoods. We're talking about ripping up communities. . . ."
Falcon: Well, this is really rich. This is the same opposition that voted against significant tax relief for small businesses each and every year . . . the fact of the matter is there's no difference in the number of empty businesses than there were before this project started and today. It hasn't changed by one."
Survival tactics
Walking Cambie, the political shifts back to the personal. The cost has been enormous to the Kims and many other merchants who have had to close their doors.
"Nobody should be asked to sacrifice their livelihood over the construction of the Canada Line," said Laura Jones, of the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses, a group that represents over 150 small and medium-sized businesses. "Why should the 500 or so businesses along the line pay such a disproportionate price for its construction? How many members of the public would sacrifice their jobs or 40 to 60 per cent of their income for the Canada Line?"
"On average, my tenants are telling me they're down anywhere from 40 to 55 percent," says property manager Waters. "We've cut their rents in half for the balance of this year just to try to help them out and they're still down."
Waters ticks off the names of stores gone, as if listing names of friends lost in battle. "Tomato, Don Don, Kitty's Hairstyling, Armadillos was here for thirty-six years until he was forced to move south to Granville to preserve his business." He sighs. "It just goes on and on."
Related Tyee stories:
- RAV 'Bait and Switch' Charged
Secret negotiations, part of doing P3 business, kept public in dark about torn up streets. - Costa Rican Tunnellers Told Strike Would Kill Project
Union charging unfair labour practices. - Guest Worker Contract Dubious Alleges Union Lawyer
Costa Rican digging Vancouver tunnel testifies firm promised far less pay than official documents reflect.
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skeptikool
4 years ago
Who are the major beneficiaries?
It was a great mistake to put it underground. The only beneficiaries are the contractors and workers on the project.
I wonder how those owning those suffering businesses voted. NIMBYism will be blamed, but I don't doubt that the public consultations were well infiltrated with the intent of achieving the underground option.
Once again the taxpayer has been sucker-punched.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Canada Line fraud
In Seattle, there is also a hint that there is about $150 million set aside to mitigate any legal action due to business losses because of transit construction.
In other cities of course, cut-and-cover construction is avoided altogether due to huge compensation packages awarded to local businesses. In fact it studies have shown that subways are very poor in attracting new ridership, when compared to on-street LRT.
Another fact not mentioned is that businesses along subway routes do not see an increase in business, rather a decline as people stay in the subway until their destination is reached and do not make 'breaks' in their journeys. With on-street LRT, the opposite is true, as local businesses see an increase of about 10%, as with surface operation the route becomes a moving billboard and with convenient stops (2 to 3 times more per route km than a subway) shopping at adjacent stores is easy.
So the Canada line subway, though costing 3 to 5 times more to build than LRT, will probably attract fewer new customers than if on-street/at-grade light rail were to have been built! Gee whiz guys, maybe that's why no one builds with SkyTrain and very few cities build subways!
Campbell and Falcon are in denial about this because the Canada Line subway was a political decision, not a practical one. in other cities, existing railway rights-of-ways would be used first. Oops that means the Arbutus Corridor.........well that's another posting.
Grumpy
4 years ago
A letter that the Asper Press will not print
The Editor;
Like Mr. R*****, I am tired of the whining and misleading letters and articles about RAV, published by reporters and the Sun's editorial board. Certainly when it comes to the truth, the Sun distorts the truth to suit their friends in government.
Here are some inconvenient facts.
1) Cut-and-cover subway construction ruins local businesses.
2) In other cities, businesses along cut-and-cover construction are compensated.
3) It takes businesses about 10 years to recover from cut-and cover construction.
4) When compensation is added to cut-and-cover construction, it becomes as costly, if not more costly to build than bored tunnel.
5) It is safe to say that RAV is being subsidised by not paying subsides to local businesses.
6) Subways have proven not to attract much new ridership due to the 'claustrophobic factor'.
7) The 100,000 passengers a day claimed by R***** is only a political number, independent assessment of ridership for RAV is much lower.
8) One looses upwards of 70% of ridership per transfer on a transit system, enforced transfers from bus to RAV will deter, not encourage ridership.
9) On-street/at-grade light rail has proven to be the best mode to attract the motorist from the car.
10) In Spain, LRT is being built for under $10 million/km.
Has anyone at the Vancouver Sun even bothered to do any research or are they content to just to reprint government press releases? The businesses being destroyed by the Canada Line 'rape' of Cambie St. deserve better!
MyBrainIsOnFire
4 years ago
oh it's a total outrage
yeah it's amazing that Seattle gave out 30k because that is exactly what I as thinking would be the best way to spend money helping the merchants - give them the cash they need to shutter their businesses while construction is going on to no more than 30k - that should be able to pay rent, etc for the duration.
the money spoent on PR is also insanely outrageous - money for advertising firms, media buys and space in canwest/ctv news products - cash to lied and misrepresnted businesses and community stakeholders - zero. So cynical it's disgusting.
verso
4 years ago
...
"Welcome to Cambie Village,"
I drive along Cambie a couple time a week, when I saw this banner I had to laugh -- they've hung across an open pit. Village indeed.
dave49
4 years ago
City Compensation
I live near "the disaster that used to be Cambie Street" so I'm familiar with all the BS and lies. The City of Vancouver does not want to set a precedent for compensation as they fear it will open a floodgate of claims. They take the view that roadwork happens all over the city and is a temporary inconvenience. SORRY FOLKS, THE CANADA LINE IS NOT A TEMPORARY CONVENIENCE! IT'S A DISASTER!
murdock
4 years ago
Warning signs were all there...
THREE VOTES!
It was three times the charm for the RAV line to be pushed into the Cambie Corridor.
Business owners in that area should have smelled the stink of it at the second vote and either demanded a full cost-benefit analysis or better had a 'plan B' ready to go the instant a shovel or excavator showed up outside their door.
Plan B = move, FAST!
This is not rocket science folks and the warning signs were all there.
Working Man
4 years ago
Tomato Cafe
There is no doubt the construction on the Canada Line has disrupted my neighbourhood. Few people want that kind of thing in their back yard.
However, as a long time resident of the area and a former business person, I can personally attest that small shops have come and gone for years along Cambie. The good ones, like the Banana Leaf, stay a long time.
Tomato Cafe is a good example. A couple of weeks ago, I walked in there with an old friend, ready to drop $100 for dinner. The place was empty yet we were told that we would have to wait 15 minutes for a table. When I asked why, I was told "because that is our policy." Me and my $100 walked out the door.
A friend of mine owns a hair salon for men on Cambie in the same area. His business is unaffected. Why? Because his service is so good people keep coming back.
Smart businesses moved. For example, Book Warehouse moved from Granville to Seymour. Robertson got himself on TV but it really has nothing to do with him. It is a city issue and the city is not going to get into the "compensation" business because everybody who gets a pothole fixed in front of their house.
Anybody who is in business has to be smarter than the average bear and willing to roll with the punches. Nobody is ever going to bail you out. Tough, eh?
Tieleman
4 years ago
Kevin Falcon is offensive and outrageous
Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon's comments are offensive and outrageous. I've previously worked with Cambie merchants at the beginning of the RAV line project and every single fear they articulated has come true.
Cambie Street is truly a boulevard of broken dreams thanks to this disruptive construction project that was changed by authorities after first being sold as a bored tunnel. The governments are saving millions by going cut and cover and the merchants and residents are paying the price.
Falcon should be ashamed of himself for not recognizing the gross unfairness of forcing a small number of businesses to pay for a huge public project.
Clearly some major businesses with deep pockets will benefit in the end but small businesses don't have the financial resources to survive that long.
I also wonder who is speculating in properties along the RAV Line that may be bought up cheap due to the financial distress of the merchants.
Compensation is the only fair way to go.
- Bill Tieleman
alive
4 years ago
live with it!
Being in business is always a gamble!
unforeseen things happen and you just have to live with it!
Yes it is tough for some who did not read the message in time!
But there comes situations where it is preferable to break a lease and spend money moving to new digs, Maybe some businesses along Cambie learned the hard way?
Life is not fair, but these businesses did have warnings, but probably only saw that eventually more footraffic would ensue?
Hey, you make one bad guess, and you are out, that is a simple facts of "free enterprise"!
On a similar note: Why not compensate the workers who put their faith in one firm, only to get fired once they were past their prime?
rac
4 years ago
LRT no less disruptive
So far, most of the work in the Cambie Village area has been utility relocation work which would of have to be done for LRT as well. In the end, LRT would have likely lead to as many problems for the businesses as the cut and cover. This is exactly why they have the fund in Seattle.
In addition, they likely would have lost on street parking on at least one side of the street, probably both sides.
Regarding ridership. In North America, only the Calgary LRT gets ridership levels similar to SkyTrain. All other LRT systems in North America get far fewer riders.
SkyTrain is a successful system in attracting riders and the Canada Line will likely meet or exceed ridership projections.
Susan
4 years ago
"Let them eat dirt...."
Thank you Bill. Thank you Grumpy.
Thank you everyone who has done the research and FOI requests to find some justice and accountability here. (By the way, I wonder who the biggest property owners are on Cambie now, and when they purchased or sold....)
Kevin Falcon actually started one of his 'everything's fine' observations in the legislature about the situation on Cambie, with "From my perch...." From this lofty height, he has dismissed all concerns for small businesses. He has shown what a bird of prey he really is, at the bidding of his master, and what bullies they all are.
The story goes that the savings may be in the hundreds of millions for the builders, to have switched to this cut-and-cover-up. Compensation should have been offered the businesses immediately.
"Welcome to Cambie Canyon" would be a much more accurate banner for the Village.
If the worry is that compensation would set some kind of precedent, how about they limit full compensation to those who are having their livelihoods expropriated by the following -
-mega projects involving every level of government, costing over 2 Billion dollars, and lasting over 3 years.
- projects where the actual method of construction is a closely guarded secret.
- projects where an environmental certificate is granted on one scope of construction - yet proceeds under entirely different circumstances, without further review or any meaningful consultation.
- projects where the costs and schedule are constantly *subject to change.
- projects that the taxpayers are ultimately paying for, that refuse to reveal the contracts and concession agreements, even after repeated FOI requests.
There needs to be a full review.
If ever there was a situation where government is using its power to confiscate value for the common good, without compensating those who are losing everything - this is it.
This is not what should happen in a democracy.
Seattle has set aside 100 times the amount of help that RAV has to assist the businesses - 150 million - compare that to the 1.3 million in ludicrous ads that promote the transit line, not the businesses, and the endless levels of bureaucracy created by all the liasons and committees.
It is shameful. Compensation is the right thing to do - and fast.
bob the cat
4 years ago
Bullies
Yes, right on Susan. They are not fighters
at all.. merely cowardly bullies..its only when they have all the power behind them that they strut about pushing people around. Like all bullies when you stand up to them they fade pretty fast.. naturally they`ll pull out the rule book ( the rules they`ve made of course)
They don`t really know how to fight honorably at all...silver spoon fed all their lives..lets send the whole miserable lot and their bully boy "leader" packing I say!
Compensation for damages!
jimmy_laroux
4 years ago
Working Man: Quote:Nobody
Working Man:
Do you mean like Chrysler in 1979?
Grumpy
4 years ago
Now the real story
RAC, wrong as usual, unlike new light rail systems in North America, which are exceeding ridership projections, SkyTrain has yet to even meet 50% of its year 2000 ridership projections.
Calgary is carrying about 222,000 passengers a day , while SkyTrain, if you factor in the fact that collected revenue is about 30% less than advertised revenue, is carrying about 160,000 a day!
As for track laying, Seattle is using a very dated and cumbersome railway method, instead of the much easier slab method. As for street disruptions, Seattle's LRT is about 60% less and there is a compensation package.
Wonder why no one buys SkyTrain or builds cut-and-cover subways? Too expensive and nor cost effective.
EDITED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL INSULTS OF OTHER COMMENTERS. TYEE EDITOR
Grumpy
4 years ago
Skytrain successful
Quote:
"SkyTrain is a successful system in attracting riders and the Canada Line will likely meet or exceed ridership projections."
Only 5 such SkyTrain systems sold.
During the same period over 100 new LRT systems have been built and a further 100 are either under construction, or in advanced stages of planning.
Ridership projections are based on spin rather than fact. Real ridership on the Canada Line will be about 45,000 to 50,000 a day.
jimmy_laroux
4 years ago
rac: Quote:In the end, LRT
rac:
No. Digging a massive trench (not to mention soil testing and sewer/hydro main relocation) and building underground stations is certainly far, far more costly and time consuming than simply laying track at street level and putting up street level stations (which are often just large bus shelters).
The Millennium line was predicted see 100000 riders per day (if memory serves), and it currently gets around half that. The Canada Line, too, will fall far short of its predicted ridership.
alive
4 years ago
me a liberal, you gotta be kidding!
Grumpy:
My observations are based on owning and operating actual busineses.
You win some and you loose some, but to go crying for help always fall on deaf ears!
When a business makes an enormeous profit, they do not want to share it with the taxpayers!
When they go bankrupt, society usually winds up paying part of that cost!
It is regretable that Gordo and his crew allowed this cut and cover method, but that is another story!
Gordo has done so many injustices in his time in office, that the so-called surplus would be used up to properly compensate all the victims!
I did not see a big rally to compensate the HEU workers who had their wages cut by 15% (inspite of having a signed, binding contract)!
The stores on Cambie did not have any signed contracts, so why feel sorry for them?
Would you also plan to compensate landowners who wind up with stores that nobody wants to lease?
Or compensate the stakeholders who had their loans etc. invalidated by bankruptcies along that line?
You love free enterprise, so please live with it!
rac
4 years ago
Quote:In the end, LRT
Jimmy
LRT still requires utility relocation and likely complete reconstruction of the roadway including probably moving of the curbs. Just check out Downtown Portland if you doubt how much work it is. Maybe not quite as much as cut and cover but don't pretend it would not have caused similar levels of disruption for several months.
The Millenium Line is around 70,000 per day (the 50,000 number is a few years old). The 100,000 I believe assumed the Evergreen Line would be completed, which it is not. Still, it probably is a bit short of the projection. However, there is a lot of development occuring near the stations which should boost ridership.
Regarding the Canada Line projections. I suggest going to Richmond and seeing how much development is taking place out there. It is massive and there is much more planned including a 2000 unit development which is going to fund the construction of the Capstan Way Station. I fully expect ridership to exceed the projects here.
Grumpy
4 years ago
alive it aint so
You win some lose some, you got to be kidding, the Canada Line is raping Cambie St. Anyone, with any knowledge of cut-and-cover construction would would have told you so.
EDITED FOR LIBEL CONCERNS -- TYEE EDITOR
Grumpy
4 years ago
No relocation needed
If one uses the 'raft' method of track laying, there is no relocation of utilities needed.
This myth of relocating utilities has more to do with downloading utility renewal costs onto the 'rail' project, rather than a necessity.
There is no need to relocate utilities with LRT!
Dave2
4 years ago
> maybe that's why no one
> maybe that's why no one builds with SkyTrain
Then why do you admit in a later post that 5 have been built? Are you being deceptive, or misleading by exageration?
> and very few cities build subways!
New York, London, Paris, Munich....
>Wonder why no one buys SkyTrain or builds cut-and-cover subways?
You've already been shown to be misleaing us on point one, and you're also misleading us on point 2. Go to Toronto, goto Montreal, they were both built cut-and-cover, as the former as recently as 2002. No-one indeed!
Finally, why bring up Skytrain in the first place? RAV is not using Skytain technology (because "no-one" uses it?)
alive
4 years ago
DOG eat dog
Look Grumpy, big business eats little business!
That is my point!
Anyone wishes to be involved in free enterprise better get used to that fact!
"grin and bear it" was the best advice I could get when I had to close down a manufacturing business! The giant department stores could import and sell for less than my costs of materials!
So, as I said: you win some and you loose some!
Perhaps I should have been a scoundrel and sold off my inventory of materials to my competitors,at bargain prices and then declared bankruptcy?
That was the advice "prominent leaders' gave me; just pass on the bad luck to the next sucker! use up my line of credit and stick them with the loss!
Not being a liberal I absorbed all costs, and pretty well lost my savings!
So, I do not feel sorry for merchants who decided to hang on and hope for the best; you gamble, you can loose!
Once again: blame Gordo, or better still blame the free enterprise system we all suffer under!
Chatterbox
4 years ago
The Rule of Law
PLEASE POST AGAIN, SHARING YOUR INFORMATION WITHOUT LEVELING ACCUSATIONS THAT COULD BE LIBELOUS.
TYEE EDITOR
jimmy_laroux
4 years ago
rac: Quote:LRT still
rac:
You think resurfacing a road is even remotely as expensive or time-consuming as digging a ~6 m deep, ~ 10 m wide, trench and moving water mains and the like? Are you serious? Do you work for InTransitBC?
My mistake: they predicted 75000 by 2006, not 100000.
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/vancouver/features/transportation/story.html?id=faaaeca5-8eaa-43d7-ac1d-94c5de8459e2
I confused the projected Millennium line ridership with the projected Canada Line ridership.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Dave, Not being deceptive
Here is the list of the 5 SkyTrain systems built:
Detroit ICTS - a 4 1/2 km single track loop affectionately called the 'mugger mover'.
Toronto ICTS - Toronto's Scarborough Line, forced upon the TTC by senior governments. Soon to be torn down.
ICTS is now called ALRT
Vancouver - forced upon the GVRD by the provincial government.
ALRT, purchased from the UTDC by Lavalin, now called ALM.
No sales as Lavalin went bankrupt trying to sell it to Bangkok.
ALM is now called ART as Bombardier buys the rights for SkyTrain.
New York - ART JFK Airport Line funded by the Canadian government and a $7 departure fee, the New York SkyTrain has yet to come close meeting it's ridership projections.
Kuala Lumpor - PUTRA ART, the transportation authority was forced to purchase a 'futuristic' transit mode by senior governments. Not as successful as the STAR elevated LRT line, senior government officials were aghast that PUTRA wasn't a monorail! A monorail was built for Kuala Lumpor's third rapid transit line!
There you go, the history of SkyTrain; not stellar isn't it?
sure the major cities have a subway and elevated railways because they have the population that creates the 'mass' of ridership to justify the need for the investment of a subway. One needs ridership in the 300,000 to 400,000 range per day to justify a subway.
London has the tube, light metro and LRT and Paris is investing heavily in new on-street LRT routes, which projected ridership is somewhat higher than RAV'S!
Just watch the SkyTrain/RAV annual subsidy zoom from over $200 million annually to nearly $400 million!
Why do you think that Falcon wants TransLink to extend from Squamish to Hope? He needs the property tax revenue to fund metro in Vancouver!
rac
4 years ago
rac: Quote:LRT still
Jimmy
The work up until now has been utility relocation. This is required even for LRT as you don't want a water or sewer main beneth the LRT tracks as you would have to dig up the tracks to repair or replace the main.
As an example, look at the timeline for the Portland LRT construction downtown. It is similar in length to the RAV timeline.
http://portlandmall.org/about/constructionplan.htm
I'm sure if you poked around on the web, you can find plenty of people complaining about LRT construction.
While you are right that cut and cover tunneling is disruptive, the track, control systems and testing work takes place underground while in LRT it would take place at grade disrupting traffic on the street.
Hard to say if LRT would have been more or less disruptive in the end. Both LRT and cut and cover tunneling have there issues and challenges.
rac
4 years ago
rac: Quote:LRT still
On the last post I meant up until now from 20th to Broadway, in Cambie Village.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Do a title search
The Editor is a wee bit leery of libel, but I would strongly suggest that everyone do a title search of who owns property and who is assembling property along the RAV/Canada line and then draw your own conclusions.
And RAC, most European LRT lines are on top of sewer and water mains without relocating them. The big problem is stray current causing electrolysis with the old metal pipes.
This 'swept path' of relocating utilities is nothing more than a gambit to download water and sewer renewals onto the light rail project.
The city of Vancouver used the same arguments when a study was done about LRT running on Broadway. The total cost was $50 million/km to build an outrageous sum for the day. The Engineering staff said that utilities just had to be relocated. Well LRT was never built and sewer renewals had to be done, interesting though that the sewer pipe was in the 'gutter' lane because when the sewer was built, streetcars had the two median lanes!
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
what to do next?
I believe that Grumpy has always been right. Building a subway to replace the buses is just as stupid as replacing street cars with buses was years back. Again we find that street cars are what people like - I know that I have enjoyed it everytime I've been able to ride one - no matter what city!
So, now we have a subway in Vancouver. What can be done to enhance its use/ridership once it gets rolling? I am wondering if we can find a way to turn this albatros into something a little more appetitive for us to use. Perhaps a good chunk of Cambie can be closed to traffic and a continuous transparent covered mall for foot-traffic can be developed? I come to this idea from having spent two separate weeks at McGill, downtown Montreal. The underground tied to the subway stores/malls/corridors were fun to use and they took me through the city without having to deal with very much weather. Maybe there can be a way to accomodate/incorporate bicycles on some of the subway runs. Perhaps if this sort of idea were developed, the businesses on the root could thrive. The RAV tickets could be offered as day passes and month passes instead of short term passes. This would encourage riders to go part way, get out shop, drink a latte, or just get out and walk for part of their journey, before returning to their journey. Many stores and businesses could open later and stay open later.
This thing could be made to work if the people of Vancouver get the will and embrace it in a huge way. It's a done deal now. We need to think about how this thing can be turned into an asset. When you are handed a lemon ... lemonade.
Grumpy
4 years ago
Subway to hell.
Unlike Montreal and Toronto, with their bitter winters, a subway alone will not support subterranean malls. People in Vancouver like the open outdoors not cavernous underground malls.
The problem with transit in the GVRD is the grand ignorance of the science of public transport. The planners don't know, so they make it up on the fly, convincing bureaucrats who don't know, selling it to politicians who don't know.
That for the last decade and a half the percentage of people who use public transit has stagnated at about 11%, despite a now over $5 billion spent on SkyTrain light-metro since 1980, there has been no noticeable modal shift from car to transit. This fact alone should raise alarm bells with everyone, it hasn't, not a bit.
Transit ridership increases are mainly due to population increase, hence the clarion call for greater and greater density along metro lines.
We are now achieving large population densities in Greater Vancouver, greater than most cities in europe Europe, yet the percentage of population using public transit has not increased!
In the Karlsruhe region of Southern Germany, with a population and population density as Vancouver and the Fraser Valley, sports 2 towns with LRT, one town with a regional LRT system that has over 400 km. of route mileage, extensive commuter rail and regional passenger service. Compare with us with an expensive yet very small metro system and a joke of a commuter rail system.
We have to change the way we think about transit, yet I see absolutely no evidence of this. Campbell and Falcon shrilly support the $2.5 billion RAV, an overpriced subway gadget-bahnen and other useless green initiatives that are only good for photo-ops.
Vancouver has past the point of no return for 'green' transit, the Gateway project has sealed our fate with 1950's transit thinking, begetting 1950's highways solutions.
Again, the one mode with a proven record of attracting the motorist from the car is rejected. The date of transit meltdown, 2012 or 2014. The Olympics have made sure that we will never have 'Green' transit and Vancouver will never be a 'Green' city.
Welcome to transit hell, coming to a municipality near you!
rac
4 years ago
SkyTrain is successful
Grump, it really doesn't matter how successful or not SkyTrain in other cities, it matters how successful it is here. Or more precisely, how many people use it. TransLink states around 220,000 per day for both lines. You claim it is around 160,00 per day. I haven't heard anyone else who disputes TransLink's figures. What is your source?
Regarding LRT in North America as you can see below, even if your 160,000 per day is correct, SkyTrain beats all but three light rail systems in North America. Sure, maybe more LRT could have been built and more people would be using it but that is not at all certain. SkyTrain is very popular and very crowded at rush hour. I was down in Portland a few weekends ago and with the exception of the free zone downtown, there was hardly anyone using the LRT. It was also painfully slow through downtown and there was much less development along the line. I was disappointed. I had thought it was much better.
Number of Boardings Average Weekday (thousands)
Toronto 322.4
Calgary 220.0
Boston 200.4
San Francisco 148.2
Los Angeles 137.7
Portland 104.3
San Diego 100.9
Philadelphia 68.6
Dallas 62.4
St. Louis 58.7
Houston 37.8
Denver 30.8
San Jose 30.5
Minneapolis 28.8
Pittsburgh 26.0
Grumpy
4 years ago
A world list of 'rapid transit' systems
I think it is time to list the number of 'rapid' transit systems around the world, from the Light Rail Transit Association.
Metro & light metro - 135, 10 under construction and 2 being planned for.
LRT, tramways (streetcar), and Light Railways - 567 with, 120 under construction and 11 being planned for.
Many cities operate both metro and light rail, Paris & Vienna being good examples.
Many Light Railways' operate light rail vehicles, thus are considered LRT.
Some cities operate rail systems with different track gauges, thus these systems are counted as different systems.
There is over 4 LRT systems for every metro in operation, but for every metro under construction, there are 12 LRT line being built.
Selected countries with metro - Brazil - 8; China - 10; France - 7; Japan - 16; United States -18.
Selected countries with LRT - France 24; Germany - 73; Italy - 22; Japan - 61; Russia - 72; USA - 56.
Canada 4 metro (Toronto has 2 different metro systems) and 4 - LRT operations
Grumpy
4 years ago
RAC, TransLink doesn't count boardings.
In the first 3 months in 2005, the TransLink Board was told by bureaucrats that an average of 100,000 passengers used SkyTrain a day, yet they claim over 220,000 use it today. Over a 100% increase in ridership in less than 2 years? If you believe that, I have some Bre-X shares for you!
Revenue collected for SkyTrain is about 30% less than claimed ridership.
TransLink refuses to divulge how they count ridership.
TransLink refuses to install turnstiles, which are very good in counting ridership. Sea-bus has them.
The last independent audit of SkyTrain was the Ahad report in 1993, which found massive discrepancies with ridership and fair evasion figures. Campbell refused the BC Auditor General funds to audit TransLink and SkyTrain.
Most transit systems in the US and Europe are audited every one or two years.
When TransLink and the BC government allow the BC Auditor General to vet SkyTrain, I will believe what he says.
Calgary's C-Train counts full boarding, three times a year. TransLink does not.
It's like the BC Lottery corporation running transit!!
Grumpy
4 years ago
RAC please, you go too far..........
Over 100,000 people use Portland's LRT daily, which is far ahead of ridership projections.
The Expo line was supposed to carry over 20,000 persons per hour per direction in the peak hour by the year 2000, yet, today it carries about 8,500 in the peak.
Which is more successful?
Remember many new LRT systems in the USA operate in much less densely populated areas than SkyTrain, yet they attract ridership, SkyTrain doesn't as mentioned in the previous post.
Another hint that SkyTrain's figures are not kosher, is that their hourly 'lift' or capacity is less than Calgary's and Calgary is now at their limit, until more cars are purchased. SkyTrain carries a lot of people, but not as many as one thinks. Also TransLink double counts ridership on the Millennium Line.
This is why I support turnstiles for SkyTrain, not for fare evasion purposes, but for collecting data for statistical analysis.
Finally, no one has bought into SkyTrain and that is clear evidence that things are not on the up and up.
you can defend Skytrain all you want, but the rest of the world has given it a raspberry!
zalm
4 years ago
So....
...Dever doesn't know who promised a bored tunnel? He should ask his bosses because he is massively uninformed.
I was at two city hall meetings a month apart before the bidding went into the secret pit, and every time people popped up to say it's too disruptive, someone, whether a councillor or city staffer or outside contractor, would pipe up "No, it's a bored tunnel, it won't disrupt a thing at all, except at the station nexes."
Everyone was making much of the two tunnel-boring machines that had had desposits placed on them in 2004 while all the fighting was going on, and numerous other statements, indications, and everything but outright promises, which nobody would have believed anyway, coming from politicians, that a bored tunnel was in the works.
As I was involved in the "Crossroads" project at Cambie and Broadway, which is to be host to a station portal, the complaints arose that the bored tunnel was "too deep" and we needed to bring Skytrain to a station platform at 10th Avenue to allow a shallower adit to Broadway. We put paid to that in a hurry, quoting City Council's own edict from April 2000 stating that there would be no Skytrain line along 10th Ave.
Yet, still the early plans showed a large space here that would ideally fit an adit for the 10th Ave. extension of the Broadway line. I suspect we're not finished fighting yet....
And RAC, You're wrong about the disruption caused by tunnel-boring. Tunnel-boring was to run on a median line 40-60 feet below the street to avoid the need for utility relocations. The only place where there would have been the need for a relocation, apart from the station nexes, was at the 8th Ave sewer trunk, where the grade of the trunk conflicted with the grade of the rail line as it dropped down Cambie St.
Engineers were bitching about the need for a station as deep as 90 feet below street level at Broadway in order to avoid that trunk at an appropriate grade. That's the only relocation between False Creek and the Fraser that would have been necessary.
zalm
4 years ago
Business isn't good - so eat Thai!
My buddy opened up a Thai restaurant at 15th and Cambie 6 months before the contract was signed, and when I mentioned that it might disrupt traffic to the restaurant, he replied "Not to worry - it'll be a bored tunnel."
He found out. He's still in business, but he sold his house to keep the family together and the restaurant in business. I won't say where he and his family lives now, because it conflicts with City bylaws, but suffice to say, he can still hear the construction in the ditch from home as clearly as he can from work.
His rent was $9500 a month when he signed, and he's been unable to get any reduction at all. His taxes ($32,000) ate him alive last year and again this year, and I'm really surprised how stubborn he's been. I know business isn't that good, because I eat there about once every couple of weeks to help out, regardless of my wife's feelings for Thai.
It really is good food - his mother cooks in the kitchen and she was one of the cooks in King Bhumibol's palace til they emigrated in 1974; fresh spices, freshly prepared, and at the same time more delicate and yet more flavourful than at any of the other "name places" on Main, Cambie or Broadway. You know which ones I'm talking about.
He still thinks that business will be really good when the RAV line starts up. I don't even argue with him any more - I think I was impolite to do so at first. If that's how he needs to keep his spirits up in the face of a $450,000 investment, then who am I to punch his figurative lights out?
Any of you still arguing that business is good on the banks of the ditch, or that this is a good investment for Vancovuer need to buy some brains. The subsidy on this line is right now being paid by the hundreds of business owners on that line, and they're doing it all without a dime from Gordo.
I haven't heard one single argument that I haven't heard dozens of times before. Only you all make them much more poorly. Not a clue, and not a hope.
zalm
4 years ago
I can't find it now...
...but whoever said there's a lot of building going on in Ditchmond is also clueless.
Richmond signed the GVRD's Liveable Region Strategic Plan in 1996 agreeing to top out development at 185,000 people in 2021. A new council came in beholden to development interests like the Iliches and presto! The promise was forgotten. Richmond intends to break their promise, and top out at 225,000 around the same time.
So for breaking their promise, we reward them with transit dollars? How stupid is that? Wait, it gets better. Assuming feeds from Ladner/Tsawassen, and assuming all transit stops over the Knight and Queensborough bridges, and assuming Richmond magically achieves the Lower Mainland target transit penetration rate of 12% of commuters (they are currently the second lowest behind Langley and Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows at 8%), they will achieve 30,000 commuters (60,000 riders) per day. With 105,000 riders needed to achieve the ridership targets, that leaves a shortfall of 45,000 riders per day - in 2021. And good luck if you need to get from Richmond to your job in New West - won't happen in less than 90 minutes.
And if there's an earthquake or a flood, all bets are off. That's why the LRSP build-out was restricted in the first place. Fewer than 10% of Richmond's buildings meet the code for earthquake resistance. None of Richmond's dykes meet the 1-in-100-year standard. Richmond is poised to become the biggest disaster bailout in North America since Katrina.
So what's the alternative? Tri-Cities has a build-out target of just over 300,000! Add in Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows and you're over 400,000, ostensibly to be served by whatever form of transit fill the now-defunct Evergreen line's shoes. With far less flood and earthquake risk, and councils that are substantially complying with the LRSP, why would you reward Richmond? It's a no brainer - except for those who have no brains.
http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/growth/lrsp.htm
Grumpy
4 years ago
Um....
During the RAV debate, the figure was less than 40,000 trips per day crossing the Fraser into Vancouver and from Vancouver across the Fraser South. To bump up ridership, Oak, of course Cambie St. & Main St. were included.
South Delta and South Surrey commuters are rebelling and according to local 'letters' columns, are going to take the car.
Certainly RAV will not get people from Oak or Main Sts., yet reduced bus service on those two routes will further force people into their cars.
The best case scenario for ridership for RAV is the number of people using the 98-B and Cambie St. buses and add 10% and that comes to less than 50,000 a day! This is less than half of projected ridership.
The enforced transfers for almost everyone to use RAV will deter about 70% of potential riders. A trip from South Delta will take about 20 minutes more via RAV than the old direct bus route.
Let's face it, for many, taking RAV will mean longer more complicated journey times and it will be just easier to take the car.
Susan
4 years ago
RAVnightmare@yahoo.ca .....
The Cambie community is collecting stories and information related to the RAV/CanadaLine project, with the end result being compensation.
Speak out at:
Business losses.
Car accidents.
Personal safety.
Property damage.
re-location costs.
Ambulance - Fire response time.
Constant changes to traffic patterns.
Loss of time/productivity in gridlock
Air quality.
STRESS.
Construction details?
There is also a website coming with a map of Cambie, where your story may be posted and marked on the map.
We are working to help people find a focused voice for the despicable way the residents and businesses have been treated by all parties involved in this mega-project.
There is no happy ending for the small businesses - unless the deserved compensation comes fast and abundantly. I too, signed a long term lease based on the disruption levels of a bored tunnel, and no more than 3 months in any one place.
Campbell has given himself a 50% pay raise, while we have lost 50% of our livelihoods, and constantly denies there is any problems for the community.
He is wrong.
Please pass this email address on to everyone you know - we are all being effected by this lack of democracy.
Tell your story.
Isabella2
4 years ago
The Village a Train Ate
The question was asked: Should taxpayers save Cambie businesses? The answer is clear and unquivocal - "Yes".
Why? Because, in the name of taxpayers and with taxpayers' dollars, those businesses have been destroyed. If taxpayers did not want that to happen, they had ample opportunity to stand up to prevent it. The majority did nothing. So, unfortunately, they now are morally, perhaps even legally, responsible for the consequences.
Don't like it? Well, that leads to the next question -- how long would any of you stand for having your 20-year efforts, your wages, your job destroyed because someone else decided you were "in the way"? Would you not hope that someone would be prepared to stand up to defend you? I know I would.
I'm with Bill Tieleman, Grumpy et al. Politicians have not been straight with us on the costs of the Canada Line. They have not shown us the - written - logic and proof of their ridership projections. As far as I am concerned, the only reason Minister Falcon wants to extend the TransLink grasp from Squamish to Chilliwack-Hope, is to help pay the bills - not just for the Canada Line, but for the long-term debt of the whole SkyTrain system. Grumpy is right, if we had not had SkyTrain thrust upon us, we could have bought twice as much transit for the money....just as the Liberals used to scream we could have had Spirit-Class ferries for the $456-million Pacificats - same difference.
Last but not least - we are lectured that drivers must get out of their cars to lessen pollution. So this is my challenge: If Kevin Falcon can tell me where he's going to find the money to replace the lost gasoline-tax revenues that would result - without dipping into my pocket again - and if he can tell me where the transit is that I need to get around SAFELY and in a timely fashion, I'll consider it.
Failing that, let's set Ombudsman Kim Carter and/or A-G Sheila Fraser, to get going on an audit of a much bigger boondoggle than BCLC and the Fast-Ferries crew ever could have imagined.
jimmy_laroux
4 years ago
rac: Quote:Hard to say if
rac:
No, it's really not. I'm amazed you'd continue to pretend they'd even be comparable. Whether or not utilities would have to be located would be specific to each situation. Are there utilities underneath the wide, tree-filled median up Cambie street?
So what? There are many factors that determine the timeline of a construction project and the effect it has on the people who live and work nearby. Do they have the same number of workers? Did they decided to proceed slowly to save costs? Does relocation affect small sections of the streets in Portland at a time or huge swaths (like tunnelling for the RAV line affects Cambie Street)? There are many, many other factors.
So build a huge trench, cutting up three lanes of traffic, so that the few months (weeks?) of testing the system (not even remotely as disruptive) can be done underground?
Seriously, do you work for InTransitBC or Translink?
Grumpy
4 years ago
Thanks Jimmy L!
The problem with light rail here in Vancouver is that no one has a clue about it. Not TransLink, not the City of Vancouver, not Victoria.
Example:
Evergreen LRT line $90 million/km.+ to build.
Velez Malaga LRT in Spain, about $8 million/km to build.
Not saying we can build LRT for $8 million/km, but certainly we can build LRT much cheaper than $90 million/km.
The one question never asked by politicians is: "How cheap can we build this rapid transit line."
The transit ride is over and we lost, the $4.5 billion Gateway highways/bridge program has sealed the fate for greater Vancouver. We will never be a 'green' city, nor a transit[friendly city, Vancouver's experiment with metro has failed, only no one has told the politicos or bureaucrats.
I hope the Cambie merchants sue TransLink and the provincial government, as they have been deceived, duped, lied to, and insulted by RAVCo., InTransitBC, the city of Vancouver, Premier Campbell, Kevin Falcon, and a host of lesser politicians, political hangers ons, and bureaucrats.
But is there a honest judge to hear their case?
Grumpy
4 years ago
Absolute nonsense
"While you are right that cut and cover tunneling is disruptive, the track, control systems and testing work takes place underground while in LRT it would take place at grade disrupting traffic on the street."
The above statement is absolutely nonsense, please not the old canard that LRT disrupts traffic, it doesn't it actually improves traffic flows! This LRT/traffic debate was invented by BC Transit to scare away any support for LRT.
If LRT were to have been built on Cambie St. I doubt very much whether there would be any major signaling done, as it would be all 'line of sight' operation. Only traffic light preemption would need to be tested (mostly at night!)
I wish there was some honest LRT debate here!
Dave2
4 years ago
News Clips from Alberta
Published: Monday, September 25, 2006
EDMONTON - Witnesses say a car and an LRT train collided Sunday because the traffic gates didn't properly close across the road.
At about 2:30 p.m., a northbound LRT train struck a car heading west on 129th Ave. The train was about to enter the Belvedere station.
It hit the driver-side door, spinning the car around and slamming the rear end into a post.
========
Race with train ends in death
UPDATED: 2007-02-16 01:33:39 MST
C-Train crash delays transit, traffic in city's north
By DAVE BREAKENRIDGE, SUN MEDIA
A driver's impatience cost him his life yesterday when he tried to beat a C-Train across the tracks, according to witnesses at the scene.
======
In May of last year cyclist, 37-year-old Godfrey Silis, was killed when he hit by a C-Train as he tried to cross in front of it at 36th St. and Rundlehorn Dr. N.E.
The same month Dennis Adrianus Akkermans, 40, died after slipping between two moving C-Train cars on a platform adjacent to city hall as he headed home from a Flames game.
---------
Jason van Rassel, Calgary Herald
Published: Sunday, January 21, 2007
A woman in her mid-20s died in an apparent accident Sunday morning after falling underneath a moving C-Train at a northwest Calgary LRT station.
Police said the fatal mishap occurred at the Banff Trail station as a southbound train pulled in at about 6:45 a.m.
------
Dave: I'm familiar with the Banff Trail station, the layout requires you to walk accross 2 tracks if you are going northbound.
Yes, I've seen the stats that suggest that our Skytrain kills more people per year, on average over the last 20 years, what I'd like to see is some stats that take out the suicides, most Skytrain deaths are suicides I'd wager; and one would expect more in Vancouver than Calgary just based on population.
Besides, Skytrain has *never* killed a cylicst on the road, has never killed an impatient motorist (yeah, who probably had it coming...) and has never mowed down an upsuspecting pedestrian or cyclist Don't believe me? Google it.
--
Dave 2 (who once again wonders why this thread has become a "Skytrain vs LRT" thread; News Flash, the RAV/Candada Line *isn't* "Skytrain"...not because it's (mostly) underground, but because it's DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGY so yes Grumpy, even RAV didn't buy into SkyTrain...
)
Dave2
4 years ago
rac -- totally agree with you re max
rac --- I'm glad you posted that... I too found that Portland Max to be great.... until you get to the Steel Bridge, then it slows to a crawl.... interesting that our Skytrain averages 45 km/h (when you include stops),but the Evergreen LRT will only be an average of 30 km/h. Same thing in San Jose... with two way traffic, you can't *always* gaurantee a green light for the train.....
Personally, I think the current plan for the "Evergrenn Line' is a mistake. Say what you will about Glen Clark, but his government did do one thing right in scrapping the plans for LRT on Broadway in favour of ALrT.... IMHO, they should continue with ALRT all the way to Coquitlam Centre... if they don't, then that means *two* transfers, and they have already build the Lougheed Mall station in such a way as to facilitate the original plan
Not that I think Skytrain is perfect, as a daily commuter I have a love/hate relationship, but most days it works like a charm.... less than 30 minutes from North Burnaby to my office downtown.... you can't beat that... it's quicker than the bus to Kits!
Dave2
4 years ago
Quote: People in Vancouver
Huh? How often are you in Pacific Centre? It's always busy.... but maybe it's busy, but people don't "like" it.... I hear what you're saying w.r.t the climate in Montreal and Toronto, but when I was there last year, it was the 47 degree C humidex that drove us into the "Underground City" , not the cold.
Besides, it does tend to rain more up north here in Vancouver, but only between August and July... I know that there have been times that I wished that the nascent Underground City around Burrard Station was a bit larger so I could get to my office without venturing out into a torrential downpour.
Grumpy
4 years ago
The facts please!
SkyTrain annual death rate is about twice that of Calgary's LRT, so much for SkyTrain being a safer system. The difference is the papers do not report many deaths on SkyTrain.
The accident in Edmonton was caused by a driver ignoring red lights, not the barrier not coming down. LRT/road intersections are a lot safer than road/road intersections. A red light means stop. There is no difference between a red light for a light rail crossing or a light controlled intersection such as Broadway and Granville, run a red light and YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT.
The debate is not LRT versus SkyTrain, rather LRT versus metro. Everywhere where there has bee honest debate, LRT has one hands down except when ridership demand a metro!
As for LRT running down Broadway, the chap at Siemens told me that with LRT running from BCIT to UBC, with stops every 500 to 700 metres, all buses would be eliminated and ridership would double in about 3 to 5 years. Business's along the route would see an increase of 10% in business (doesn't happen with subways) and there would be a real modal switch from car to light rail. He was so confident that he said a private operator could fund the route and make a profit!
Not bad, when one considers the real fare for SkyTrain should be about $10! But he was a real transit expert and the bunch at TransLink, well Mr. Beers will delete my opinion!
Grumpy
4 years ago
Did you know?
Did you know that merchants in Portland dearly want LRT or a streetcar on their street? Why? Business improves where trams run!
By the way MAX is in Portland and the C-Train in Calgary.
Grumpy
4 years ago
So suicides don't count? A sad statement
I am absolutely shocked at the statement that suicides don't count! The author of this statement is cold and callous, a death is a death, that TransLink doesn't do anything to mitigate this is a scandal.
The French VAL system has sliding glass doors at stations to prevent egress at stations, why not SkyTrain. the reason: TransLink doesn't give a damn! It's cheaper to deal with dead people than installing gates!
To all those who want SkyTrain, you pay for it! I truly think only the taxpayers in the cities where SkyTrain operates should pay for it. When that happens, you will get a massive dose of reality.
Only when the your property taxes reflect the true cost of metro, you will reflect more positively on LRT!
Dave2
4 years ago
My point wan't that
My point wan't that "Suicides Don't Count" (A statement which I did not make, by the way)
A suicide is not an accident, and should be considered separtely when attempting to use statistics to determine which system is "safer" When comparing our system with Alberta's, it is irrelevent whether someone jumps in front of a moving a SkyTrain or a moving C-Train.
You can make it as safe as you can, but people will still find a way. IThat's hardly Tranlink's fault.
The accident in Edmonton was caused by a driver ignoring red lights, not the barrier not coming down. ... run a red light and YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT.
[endquote]
That too sounds callous towards the deceased... though that was probably not your intention... words on a computer screen do have a way of doing that.
(And yes, I've been on Line 14 in Paris and the JLE in London. Neither of which are intending to retrofit their other lines AFAIK)
Grumpy
4 years ago
Nope, Dave you don't get it!
Quote:
The accident in Edmonton was caused by a driver ignoring red lights, not the barrier not coming down. ... run a red light and YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT.
End Quote.
Dave, this is fact, running red lights cause accidents. There is no difference running a light controlled railway crossing or an intersection like Granville and 41st.
it's just like the idiots who walk on railway tracks, somehow they believe they have the right to do so, sadly they are trespassing. Get hit by a train, its your fault.
The Jubilee Line does has sliding glass barriers on the new extension where the metro runs on automatic mode. The EEC health and safety rules state that driver less or automatic transit systems must have sliding glass doors. If their is a driver on board then no.
Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate is of the opinion that suicides are preventable, thus are an accident.
The best way to compare at-grade LRT accidents is to compare them with regular intersections. Are there more accidents are LRT intersections or road intersections? LRT has proven to be one of the safest public transit modes in the world, unfortunately some Neanderthal drivers refuse to recognize red lights and ones legal rights-of-way.
Romeogolf
4 years ago
Fixed Enterprise
Would you also plan to compensate landowners who wind up with stores that nobody wants to lease?
Or compensate the stakeholders who had their loans etc. invalidated by bankruptcies along that line?
You love free enterprise, so please live with it!
First off, let's get re-aquainted with reality; we don't have such a thing as free enterprise. The system is rigged, whereby the Liberals favour big business with backroom deals and taxpayer subsidies that guarantee their profits. They scratch each other's backs to perpetuate the profit machine. Actually, to describe them as two different entities is misleading. They are one and the same.
Secondly, if Seattle can compensate its small businesses, why are we singularly incapable of doing the same? Do we have to destroy the village to save it?
Thirdly, if teamwork is such a Holy Grail in the world of work, sport, etc, why take a Darwinian approach to Cambie Village small businesses?
This project is rife with double standards and worse. The losers are the taxpayers and the small businesses. By any objective financial standards and established transportation planning conventions, this project should not have merited any serious consideration.
zalm
4 years ago
Grumpy...
All true. I conflated 2021 predictions with current figures and confused everyone. I should have taken more time. The picture would have looked even worse....
Chatterbox
4 years ago
The Rule of Law
Canada is a nation founded on the rule of law, in particular a common law tradition spanning over 700 years and a century-old statutory framework. We should all be proud of the sacrifices of millions of Canadians who both brought us and have long defended this legal tradition.
When laws are violated, justice must be swift and unequivocal, or else it is meaningless. When laws are broken by our government itself, justice hangs on a thread, and our nation itself falls into peril.
With regard to RAV, both the Environmental Assessment Application Terms of Reference and the project RFP stated unequivocally that a tunnel would be bored from the Waterfront at least to 37th Avenue. The Vancouver City Council vote of May 2003 and approved Road Access Agreement stipulated a bored tunnel.
The Environmental Assessment Officer in charge of the RAV project for two years was removed from his position one month before the Environmental Certificate was issued. His emails prove his strong opposition to the project.
The representative of the Attorney General of BC failed to disclose this expert's removal from the project when asking the BC Supreme Court to defer to the EAO's decision.
A sum total of $1.35 billion of public funds was authorized to build this project. Government audits show at least $1.9 billion in taxpayer contributions have been obligated, just for the construction of the line, and not including the RAVCo-reported $657 million in interest-bearing, recoverable private sector "investments."
The CEPA-required Independent Environmental Monitor of the RAV project is a fully-owned subsidiary of the prime contractor. This company is solely responsible for overseeing the dumping of millions of tons of industrial soils into English Bay.
The Canadian Criminal Code has much to say about such activities, especially under two provisions: Frauds on the Government and Breach of Trust by Public Officer, Sections 121 and 122.
These activities, including the degree to which acknowledged and documented complicity ties separate actors into a conspiracy, constitute indictable offenses with statutory jail times of 2-4 years per offense.
"Free market," "free enterprise," "a bad guess"? These are the the words of some supporters of this criminal activity, defending the victimization of hundreds of Vancouver families.
The only thing "tough" about a crime 170 times greater in economic terms than the Sponsorship scandal back east, is that sentences will be handed down to far more people. The documentation behind this project cannot be hidden, and the victims could not be more clearly discerned.
All communications by those involved criminally--including within the business community itself--will be examined under court discovery, and will become a matter of public record. Even distant associates of those brought to justice will become known for what they said and did.
For the future of our nation, justice is imperative.