Worker safety once counted for something

Yah, Chris, workers once had the rights to arrive there safely. Not no more. Not since Campbell. Campbells got a new set of standards for workers in this province.

We gotta have contractors charge the workers two bucks an hour for transport and things like that. Why would any government want to regulate such a thing as worker exploitation of salary and safety? Why, that would get in the way of big business.

Can't encourage people to be talking about the need for regulations and/or unions and such. Just deregulate and do nothing. Business knows best. It can just, "regulate itself".

Its the Campbell way.

And doesn't this story reek of "we told you so's?" Cause, dear provinical voters, it's not nice to be on the wrong end of a personal decision, but... when it came to this Campbell governments choices and where they would lead, we were told.

TYEE Deja vu all over again

Yes , it was about time for this issue to be brought back on the TYEE.

This is a typical issue of why the Lefties are simply armchair experts full of tax,spend and legislate to solve problems.

Agreed Maestro

The lefites love victims, whether they are aboriginal,poor,"palestinians" or drug addicts.

This is a new cause for them.

If this were a bunch of white people on the way to the mall, they wouldn't give a toss.

A good solution to this problem of exploited workers is for the government to just take over the farms. Why should they be private in the first place, exploiting immigrint workers? They can hire Bob Mugabe as an advisor to help.

I am rather sick of folks

I am rather sick of folks claiming the left are at it again etc etc. People died, a list of items were presented to two ministers who appeared to understand the position put forward. Good photo op. Concerned governemt , then not much, beyond the Cops scooping up unsafe vehicles, even found one driver withour a license of any kind. But are the vehicle checks still being done on a regular basis? Are the unsafe contractors still hauling workers? The cost of doing business in BC. At the same time articles are appearing around the need for more land for farming which will of course require more workers. So some conditions better be in place just in case one of the bitchers here has a kid or relation who ends up in a vehicle run by some not so caring contractor. The worksafe rules are being broken. A number of years ago, a child was in the work area, fell into a pail of water and drowned. Oh well he was just a kid of some farm worker.

Thanks flathead. I've been

Thanks flathead. I've been wondering for many years who them there "lefties" are and now I can see: people with some brains, and who can use them for logical thinking.

Farmers and farmworkers have always been looked down upon as "hayseeds" and low life animals who could be abused and replaced at will. Until the food becomes scarce and no high tech, or the pouring on of tons of new chemicals, or GM, can bring it back. Which could happen in a very short time and is happening now, thanks to criminal ideologies and economic theories forced on Earth .

There's an old Hungarian proverb: "When the peasant doesn't shit the lord doesn't eat"
and no truer words were ever spoken.

Because, when we scratch the surface, farmers and farmworkers could really be the most important people on Earth.

Definitely and infinitely more important than politicians, or multinational CEOs, and especially stock market gamblers and so called "economists".

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Lefties and this (and other) issues

Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink.

Lefties Lefties everywhere(?) and not a real thought to think. (BTW: Wise elder Fiat Lux / Ed excluded from the aforementioned wisdom. )

Spam

It looks like maestro is going to restrict itself to spam yet again.

Who owns the companies?

It would be so much better for the "lefties" if the people that owned these farms and farm contractors were white. That would be perfect. Fact is, E.I. people are used and abused by E.I. people. A different culture with different standards, old people working in the fields until they drop, tax evasion and employment insurance scams on a massive scale. Workers living in appalling conditions while thier masters/employers live in stucco mansions. Its a caste sytem folks, oh, I forgot, we are supposed to celebrate multiculturalism. Flattax is right, bring in Bob Mugabe, he'll show us the way.

Blessed by Jimmy Flambe' s presence (again):

Hey Jimmy !!! ;

Nuff said.

PS: HOMEWORK:
Ya got something to say in your usually droll troll professorial lecture fashion ? Maybe tie in Cuba for some bonus marks.

What's your solution?

Enlighten us on how a "righty" would deal with the farm labor issue.

Off topic ever quicker than usual

Well less time than normal for the right wingers to start slaging others who show concern.If one is not prepoarted to admit thye statu quo has problems and want to help talk about changes, well shit on some folks who are concerned.

Pickin`

Ever picked to pay the rent? Not talkin` kid summer work for spending change....whoee thats back breakin` work out in the sun..sun up to sun down..I could do four bin a day ..apples in Fall..sun up to sundown..not as bad as bending over pickin` or weeding...row on endless row of fertilized jumbo sized weeds trying to disguise themselves as tasty morsel.
no shade..thirsty as hell..A mac fresh off the tree is something completely different than the mushy waxed stored apples you get in the markets.

Yeoman:

First of all: are you a Leftie or a Rightie...?

Secondly, how familiar are you with the issues?
(ie Do you live in locales whereby you see farm practices literally daily...and/or have you yourself experienced farm labour first hand?).

Huff, sigh, tsk....

Okay, who wound up the Blowhard again?

Bob the Cat:

Look at what Club-sky called you...throw some used kitty litter at " it " .

In the history of abuse....

Never have so many, cried so much for one person to shut up! Doesn't it bother you that everyone who logs in here calls you an idiot? Isn't the self abuse enough for you? You have to come here and publicly humiliate yourself? That's some deviant behavior you got there maestro! Go ahead, show us your ape routine now. We've never seen an original thought from you yet, more parroting is all we can expect. That and foaming into a rage of anger...

Yes Spam

maestro continues to restrict itself to spam.

Paganini

James Burns:

I`ve just learned that our maestro is a very accomplished violinist.
Did you read the little story of " The Japanese Man" on the other thread.
Fairly pulled my heartstrings it did.
Not only are they heartwarming and touching little stories...they carry a very strong capitalist moral..a strong up by the bootstraps message.
Brilliant stuff... doesn`t quite carry the weight of the flattax absolutes but it is heartwrenching without a doubt.

Jimmy " Moon " Flambe' hath doth spoken-sky

...and Jimmy Flambe' continues to moon us from the lecture podium.

Or was that a moon ?

Was that all the way from Cuba ?

Robby Duh Cat-sky

Here Kitty Kitty
Here Kitty Kitty
Here Kitty Kitty-sky

Capitalism in the Extreme

We need government regulations for the few entrepeneurs/corporations who have no morals just like we need speed limits for drivers who do not know their limits. Most of us don't like it, but they are necessary because a few of us have limited abilities. For that reason, free-market economies do not work because capitalism lends itself --for a few people-- to irrational actions. If we add (like Climber said) issues of caste systems, and I would add --in other situations-- dirty or old money, an immigration system that brings people who are vulnerable to expoitation and people who are prevented to work because of unions and associations' protectionism, some women who reward the ones who have the most, then we have problems. Megalomaniacs surface and make bad decisions. And, let's not forget that they do not like governments and will do anything to make them look bad. Unfortunately, I think drug money and old money are controlling a lot of what is going on. Political systems are too big and --mostly-- ineffective, as one needs money to be elected. To come to some semblance of order, we would need smaller countries, smaller cities, more taxes made to enforce rational rules designed to protect exploitation. We also need more people to put pressure on governments. I doubt writing does anything to change the system. In fact, it is probably a good way for all of us to let off some steam.

Starting point.

I have no problem with Charan Gill.

I hadn't read much about him for years till this unfortunate accident. He was once quite a Public figure on this issue.

He is doing what anyone in the broader context of a Democracy does....and that includes the right to organize workers. ( Ironically, it was reported he and his colleagues got his wrists slapped recently for a failed experiment along the lines of his original objective).

However, there is this subtle force called REALITY, and farming, and agriculture and that is what Charan Gill is up against. Farming and Agriculture is a ( WARNING : are you ready for that dirty word Lefties? ) B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S, and not a charity and that's where this discussions' starting point is " GPS'd " .

maestro

Its a "charity" that the transportation you provide to your workers is safe? I thought it was a business expense like a CEO's leased Lexus?

Business doesn't mean

Business doesn't mean unlimited exploitation rights, but the purpose of so called "competition" means exactly that, because
"wealth can not be created, only taken" and the present system not only permits, but encourages larceny under the fraudulent definition of "economic efficiency" as the
"biggest profits with the least monetary inputs".

When you give exploitation and thieving rights to any sector, the system will become
a dictatorship and legalized crime.

Ed Deak, (Independent business owner, 3 of them limited companies, in BC, since 1957)

Accident investigation report..... SVP?

So....

Has anyone a copy of the investigation of this tragic accident ? I am not aware of one completed and made public yet.

When this was first discussed on the TYEE, the rare voices of reason, one of which alluded to having farming experience, stated much the same, ie all we know is the Van carrying these parties had an accident that involved fatalities.I had also noted back then that ICBC had a demonstration mock up that showed the G forces involved in rollover crashes. These "G" forces are, to say the least, quite substantial.

Now this accident could have involved children on the way to camp... a Handy Dart bus...any similar situation involving one or more occupants.

This reminds me of another sad tragic case where the young teenager with a promising career as an entertianer was found lying on a street and originally deemed to have been hit by a motor vehicle. Then it was revealed no car had actually hit them...they had actually committed suicide by jumping from their apartment , with their family being interviewed to corroborate this.

It is very easy to jump to conclusion until this investigation is likewise complete. However , it is so easy for certain types to grab some of the basics and run with it in some " pimp the graves " exercise for political agenda "X" .

Suffice it to say that if the Van in question had had all the seatbelts and 1/2 the number of people, there could still have been deaths, given what the ICBC prop showed.

BTW: over 40 workers were killed in the BC Forestry Industry in 2005, an industry supposedly more regulated than the BC Agricultural industry/business .

Otherwise Keep the tar and feathers coming Lefties, just make sure the wind is blowing "right" way.....makes it easier , correct?

Business?

Come on maestro what do you know about business? You restrict yourself to spam and cliches most of the time.

The best you can come up with in this case is to whinge about the investigation not being complete, yet at the same time you assert a conclusion about it. But you're just indulging in pure speculation when you decide what have would have happened had the van not been overloaded, and had there been seatbelts. Of course you also throw in a few totally unrelated nonsense anecdotes.

I can see why you usually rely on spam and cliches if that's the best you can come up with.

Seven words says it all.

Are you capable of understanding the people and their politics come in more than two flavours?

I agree with whoever said you're just here in the role of disruptor. Your posts are too frequent and too lacking in thought to be anything other than the work of a person bent on drowning out debate.

Forestry vs Farmwork

One industry is inherently more dangerous than the other. Comparing the two is pointless.

Regulated? Ask the 40 dead folks.

Maestro quote: "Over 40 workers were killed in the BC forest industry in 2005, an industry supposedly more regulated than the BC agricultural industry/ business".

"More regulated" is relative. If I'm not mistaken, the provincial government deregulated safety standards in the forestry industry to a large extent and left it up to business to "self regulate". Unfortunately, setting up and regulating one's own safety standard costs money and hurts the "bottom line". Having companies "self regulate" is like putting the fox in charge of guarding the hen house. Therefore, maybe a higher authority has to do it, unless worker deaths are chalked up as a cost of "doing business". In a province that's "open for business", this unfortunately appears to be the case. In my opinion.

PS: I see none of the "righties" have thus far answered Yeoman's question as to how they would deal the "farm labour issue". Seems to be just a lot of evasive slurs and sarcasm.

Rules to protect lives of people are good rules

Maestro, you say:

"BTW: over 40 workers were killed in the BC Forestry Industry in 2005, an industry supposedly more regulated than the BC Agricultural industry/business ."

I am not too sure what is your point, however, because I think you would need to give us a ratio and a true comparison for your argument to be understood. As it stands, I have to make inferences.

So, you think that we would have less deaths if all industries were deregulated?

What do you think if we did not have speed limits? More deaths? Less deaths?

And, lets go one step further, what if we did not have any cops too? More deaths? Less deaths?

Linkage

Is anyone going to make the leap and connect two very disturbing things facing the Indo-Canadian community? They are the abuse and murder of Indo-Canadian women and the systemic dreadfull treatment of farmworkers. These crimes are self inflicted by that community, is Wally Oppal going to speak to the farmworker issue as well? He was pretty well abused for speaking up about the women, hit a little close to home. Fact is, women are second class citzens, so are farm workers in many peoples minds in that community. Those with the power use it, to abuse, and to kill, if thwarted. Now Stump, if three loggers had been killed when thier unsafe company pickup crashed would you see the story on the Tyee? No, probably some here would think they got thier just deserts, raping the Great Bear Rainforest sic. and all.

What's your point?

What does that have to do with the topic under discussion?

Immigration

On the one hand, bringing immigrants who have very different cultures (treatment of the poor, women, ... religion and cast system,... greed,...) is inherently a problem that one needs to contend with. On the other hand they provide for the capitalists cheap labour (and retraining revenues for colleges, even though they might have been well trained [but, that's a different topic]). We cannot expect them to know or accept all that they see here. It takes times. However, immigration Canada and the province could do a better job in integrating these people if we tell they can come. Yes! It will cost, but lets's not forget they got educated for free elsewhere. Nothing is for free. As far as women are concerned, I think laws need to be applied and the community needs to be educated by way of mail flyers in Punjabi, forums,... The way they treat women/marriage is so backward, but then we used to treat our women a few decades ago in the same manner (or pretty close). They are not more stupid than we are, they are at a different level of development, exacerbated by religion. I cannot say I am comfortable with all aspects of their culture, being very inward, but not all are like that and the older people are probably not able to evolve as quickly as the new generation. Education would help though: cultural education and legal education by the more Canadian members of their community.

Good points by Climber

And, I agree with you ... people matter no matter what they do (of course, murderers should be treated or removed for a while). Loggers, soldiers,... these are people who are trying to make a living. I am not for wars, but soldiers are just pions (and to some degree aren't we all). Soldiers in Afghanistan (or elsewhere and at different times of history) are used to protect the interest of big companies and rich people when megalomaniac decide to invade another country to get richer or to convert people. (Do we have soldiers there to defend us or big companies?) I think these leaders (corporate or political) do not care one bit if they die or not. Some human beings could learn from animals that are apparently less advanced than they are!

Point

Stump, the story came about from a traffic accident involving employees in a company vehicle. My point is that if the dead had been loggers, probably white, maybe Native, then this story would never have appeared here. Important think about how stories are rated here, as in the Sun and so forth.

Tyee not interested in logger deaths?

Not sure why anyone would say that.

Consider these articles we've run:

Why No Inquests into Loggers' Deaths?
http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/12/09/LoggingDeathInquest/

Coroner Whistleblowers Rebuffed by Les
http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/02/10/WhistleblowersLes/

'He'd Be Alive Today' Logger's widow says her man could have been saved.
http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/12/09/AliveToday/

Beware of 'Zombie' Truck Loggers
Longer shifts are stretching truckers to the point of dangerous exhaustion, say drivers and union reps.
http://thetyee.ca/News/2004/11/15/BewareZombieTruck/

There are lots more. Go to the search bar on the Tyee home page and punch in 'Loggers + Deaths' or something similar, and you can avoid making such unwarranted statements.

Thanks.

David

My point is valid, your stories are about loggers being killed working, not driving to work. These farmworkers were killed driving to work. The logging truck drivers were working, as were all the other guys killed logging. Anyways, I remember some of the logging accident stories, most of the comments posted railed against logging, especially clearcut logging. If these deaths had resulted from farm accidents then my point would be unwarranted. I could have used a better analogy though, how about the traffic deaths around Ft. McMurray involving oil and construction guys?

Status of agriculture

It is true that agriculture enjoys a special position in BC. Farmers, especially in the Fraser Valley, are exempted from many of the requirements that other businesses face, especially employment legislation. These exceptions entrench a business model that is based on cheap labour. Blue berry growers, for example, have expanded their production substantially on the assumption that they would have access to labour on demand at low wages, in some cases less than the minimum wage. No other industry has this status. As a society we should encourage agriculture, but not subsidized by the conditions of vulnerable workers. After offering work to Canadians at $8.60 per hour, farmers can claim that no Canadian worker will take these jobs and then import Mexicans, who are overwhelmingly males between the ages of 25 and 45.
Let the farmers carry out their businesses on the same basis as other Canadian employers. No one is suggesting that they act as charities.

bad analogies

Are they being driven to work by their employer (or someone hired for the purpose), or driving themselves? If the latter, then it's another bad analogy.

Hey Stump:

Are you awake Y----E----T ?

Remember : Duct tape that LapTop to the bike handles. Oh yeah, make sure you grab a swig of punch to start the day off wryghte-sky.

Climber et al

Don't waste your time preaching to the perverted -converted.

The blinkers they have on are folding inward more and more to the point they can't even see anymore and seem to go by some sort of rote programmed memory. If they don't agree with you....oops let me correct that...if you don't follow and swallow their party line...oh no....you don't belong to their clueless cult-clique.

AKA Count your blessings.

They can't even take a simple spoon fed " cue " to engage in an expanded discussion. One can hear the DUHHHH form this cult-clique over the Internet. To pass(?) school(?) they must have intimidated their teachers with " I don't get it" , and the teachers not wishing to have to tolerate them for another year, thus " pass it forward and good riddance-sky " .

One used to be generous and presume these idealogues were playing cute so more debate and discussion would ensue. However, on many TYEE topics its nauseatingly obvious re: the same clueless party line which simply makes their ignorance more conclusive.

I've seen this group ideology dynamic before...its both amusing and scary. However, the TYEE serves as a venting for them, somewhat cathartic, and allows the rest of us to sit back , shake our heads, and be thankful their ideology is one Genie most of society wishes to re-bottle and toss back into the ocean.

You, reality_check and polanco etc. have made good objective comments...many of the rest are the same old- same old . As the stomach turns.

LOL

Having you lecture about an inability to debate and discuss is laughable Maestro. You can't write two lines without an off-topic and irrelevant comment or ad hominem attack.

The only thing worse than your so-called debating tactics is your attempts at humour.

I guess the Fraser Institute doesn't pay you to be funny though... just to cloud the waters and clog the pipes with irrelevance and ill-thought-out positions.

Stump re: Ft. Mac

Most of the guys there are from here or Newfieland, they get driven to work in company pickups and vans, like the farmworkers. The road to Ft.Mac is the scene of many fatalities, tired, speeding hungover, whatever, its a bad one. There are some here who don't parrot the party line, some that I believe remain silent because they feel pressure to to conform, oh well.

That goes for climber too...

The infestation has been expanded as the likes of maestro, flattax and elliot have been handed there hat so many times, they've had to recruit more wing nuts. It won't work assholes, as you give yourself away every time with blatant ignorant statements like this one. climber:

Fortunately they all scurry away when challenged. Time to clean up this place with a few more cats.

Now that Stump-sky has vented...back to reality

I see that none of the Usual Suspects-sky has delved into the idiosyncracies of BC's OTHER " Reservation" , nor the legal cesspool of the Farm Tax Status in the Assessment Act. (Why does this not surprise me ?)

Various immigrant groups have obtained entry level employment via working on farms. That includes many members of my own extended family.

When I worked in the fields as a student, a large truck would roll up in the morning , in the pre seat- belt days, and people of Asian origin would roll out and commence picking . Nowadays, I don't observe those of Asian background in the fields except for those who own small 5- 10 acre plots and harvest small niche' crops.

Nowadays, the phenomenon I observe has expanded beyond farm labour. Many parties of South Asian origin form part of the new labour pool. Many, if not most of these parties are elderly ie 50 + years old . They work not only in the farm fields but also on small construction sites. It is quite obvious they don't wear safety gear, ie neither hard hats nor safety boots. I see this on a daily, I repeat D-A-I-L-Y basis.

So..." Where is the Blessed Gov't ", the Lefties cry?

You all know the answer to THAT one , don't you Lefties ? Nothings changed and nothing will, morseo now than ever. If you try to change it very much...there will be quite a domino-like back-lash.

(.....Like the hint -hint I gave about Forest Industry accidents. 25 years ago a family member whose employed position entailed worker safety would mention fatalities in this BC industry...back then it was approx. 30 workers killed on average a year. 25 Years later...it seem to have gotten worse(ie 2005 stats over 40 + workers killed ) in an industry that is continually downsizing and consolidating.

None of you seem to have provided any info on the Farmworkers accident investigation...aka its ongoing, is it not? )

If you don't understand any of the aforementioned , that is unfortunate, like many other things you ideologues rant about to disguise your lack of due - diligence. Why bother engaging in further debate and discussion in the Bigger Picture brought to you in Technicolor. You've had enough hints, but ya'll keep dropping the ball.

Stereotypes and "Life is safe and simple if we trust Big Brother/Big Gov't" seems to be the " Cure and the Prevention " to all of lifes ills in many of you ideologues' minds.

Left or Right?

There is a battle going on here and it often takes away from the topic which makes it difficult to stay focused and gather insight from what is said from the various comments. Of course there are going to be opposing views and what more could we ask for when trying to get to the heart of the matter? Its hard to get to the root of a problem when we are concerned more with the messenger than the message.

La la la la la

Louder blow hard no one is listening to your drivel... you can't debate nonsense, do you get it, finally? The entire Tyee forum, (except for your multiple alias's) can't possibly all be wrong... Thick as pea soup you are.

Behavior tolerated....

... is behavior accepted. Sorry not in my world. You will ultimately be held responsible for your words and actions, and besides there is plenty of good debate between the troll droppings. Think of the police work as a necessary evil. Cost of blogging, sorry.
With that in mind and respect for your "more chatter" less bashing, I will conclude my efforts on this thread and apologize for the interruption. Please proceed with caution.

Who's world ?

Lefties never apologize...

Even when they are "wrong" (redundant)they are right ..errr "correct", (or else-sky !!! ).

right? .... errr " correct " ?

Ouch!

I see how easy it is to get caught up in the battle as I had a few chosen words for yeah but you did give me a giggle and I don't know you so its not personal but the deaths of those farm hands now thats personal because what happens to a fellow citizen can also happen to me.

No Problem:

Like anything else, things have to be taken in the proper context. With that goes the bigger picture.

Farm workers are PEOPLE no different than me or you or anyone else. Let's keep that in mind.

Greyhound buses , or BC Transit buses don't have seatbelts, though they carry a legal load of passengers.

How many times do we hear about accidents with buses carrying legal loads? They still happen regardless.

How are we going to regulate this issue ? If we regulate it, will it prevent it in the future ? If we can, that implies every accident will be prevented.

Solution?
Roadblocks 24/7/365 in any area with farmland...check every vehicle for compliance.., automatically suspect farmworkers in every vehicle. aka Police State ?

Like I said earlier, the investigation is still ongoing.

Let's talk reality, and move forward from there. If anyone has a pragmatic and non- draconian solution, please post it.

Well, how about this

For a start, reverse the changes made in the BC Liberals Partnership Agreement of May 15 2003.

Partnership Agreement helps protect farm workers ... Effective tomorrow, farm workers are excluded from hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday pay.
- B.C. government news release, May 15, 2003

Instead, and despite last week's horrific vehicle accident that killed three women farm workers, the Liberals deny the obvious - that their actions in support of farmers and farm labour contractors are directly related to this tragedy.

With the enthusiastic backing of the B.C. Agricultural Council, representing the farming industry, Premier Gordon Campbell's government has weakened previous protections for farm workers in almost every possible way.

One of the most misleading and outrageous actions was a Partnership Agreement signed between the government and the Council in May 2003 that resulted in what the Council called "Positive Changes in Employment Standards Act Regulations" in a memo to members.

Those "positive changes" include allowing child labour - letting 12 to 15-year-olds to work with only parental permission; removing farm workers from hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday pay provisions; and reducing by up to 75 per cent the bonds labour contractors are forced to post to ensure workers are paid.

Of course, it was a farm labour contractor with a history of violations whose overloaded van crashed last week, killing the three workers.

RHA Enterprises Ltd. had previously been found to have operated without a farm-labour contractor licence. They are currently licensed.

But the agreement between government and farmers states that: "The B.C. Agriculture Council and its member organizations agree that they will not support or condone the utilization of unlicensed farm labour contractors."

Rainbow Greenhouses in Chilliwack, where the farm workers were headed when the tragic accident occurred, is listed as one of "our growers" on the website of the United Flower Growers Co-operative Association, which signed the Partnership Agreement.

{Bill Tieleman, 24 Hours)

Would that be a start?

Who owns RHA? Names please.

Who owns RHA? Names please.

Sorry G West:

Bill T. is a classic right wing neo con...we can't trust what he writes.

Regardless, what "start" ?
If the contractor was a shyster...if they aren't or weren't stopped, another will take their place. Just like crooked Lawyers, Bankers, Doctors et al.

If people try to be decent and honourable , it lessens the risk. My prediction is it will happen again. Just like Forest workers will unfortunately die.., people will get killed on other jobs...planes and trains will crash...or other unfortunate events in the basic course of daily life. It's also called statistics and probability based on exposure to the real world .

Again typical Tar and Feathers prior to the investigation concluding.
Sort of like the Basi Virk case.
Maybe the B/V defence lawyers will cite the TYEE and claim a mistrial.

Why does it matter?

The names are irrelevant unless you're interested in turning this into a racist issue.

The point is that they were acting as labour contractors and these people needed to work - they were being transported to that work in a van with wooden benches instead of seats - wooden benches that were not in the van when it was inspected. This is not the first such accident in the province since the Regulations were changed.

These people had no choice in the matter. They accepted the terms and conditions offered by a labour contractor and they had no protection from a gutted agricultural labour agreement.

The government failed in its duty to protect the weak and the powerless.

That's about all there is to it, if you want the names you're going to have to find them. While RHA may have the direct responsibility the indirect responsibility rests with the Ministry.

I will tell you this about RHA:

(also from Bill Tieleman)

Period.

Maestro said: (.....Like

Maestro said:
(.....Like the hint -hint I gave about Forest Industry accidents. 25 years ago a family member whose employed position entailed worker safety would mention fatalities in this BC industry...back then it was approx. 30 workers killed on average a year. 25 Years later...it seem to have gotten worse(ie 2005 stats over 40 + workers killed ) in an industry that is continually downsizing and consolidating.

I spoke of this too, Maestro, but not in the same way. The forest industry has been ramping up for a few years now - all that beetle wood you know. The 2005 stats don't compare with cubic meter harvested, etc. The real problem in the bush that led to so many deaths is the deregulation of the industry (I believe they call it self-regulation - which, of course, is no regulation at all. ). Anyhow, forest companies have been growing in the Interior as the logging companies are able to harvest the beetle timber at salvage rates - then sell it at top dollar! No wonder the US producers are yelling foul! (Trouble is, when the wood is gone, those logging/milling companies are going to be stock piles of equipment that has no use - hence the salvage rates.) Now back to the topic. Logging companies (out of necessity) are hiring young and inexperienced men with little training to be handling ever more powerful and complicated machinery and trucks. Yes, they are harvesting smaller wood (for the most part) as many of the beetle stands are not yet mature, but smaller wood means more pieces for an equal amount of scaleable volume. More pieces means more opportunities to be "caught in the bite".

The crux is the increased activity with inexperienced hands leads to dangerous situations. We all know that young men seem to take more risks than older men. (Not wanting to be sexist, ladies, but most loggers are men.) The province deregulated the industry at a time when industry could best afford to pay for training and safety. They are making money hand over fist and few officials have been watching them - for safety or practises!

Those kinds of changes

Those kinds of changes and that kind of regulation just aren't the priorities of the Campbell Government and their "Partners". The same thing is true in the forest industry when it comes to enforcing and policing safety compliance and responding to unsafe practices.

G.West-Don't want to change

G.West-Don't want to change it into a racist issue, race does have a part to play, as I said here earlier, there is a link between the abuse of women and farmworkers in the Indo-Canadian commmunity. Sharing-I have to dispute a few things you said, first, they are not selling that shit pine for top dollar, it is not clear Douglas fir, nor is it cedar. Second, the move has been to mechanize logging, so most of the wood in the interior is cut by machine, not hand felled or hand bucked. A man in a feller buncher or grapple skidder protected by e.r.o.p.s. is a lot safer than a man protected by a hard hat. Now they have the new falllers standard, so you have to be certified to hand fall, they have done a lot, the stats speak for themselves, deaths are way down. One death is to much but it is getting better. G.West-what do you know about logging? Personally I mean, ever ran a saw, bucked, ever wore caulks?

Pulled on a Green chain

All dimension lumber - none of it re-sawn none dry, smallest profile 4' x 6" - largest 6" x 12" lengths to 24' heavy stuff.

Summer jobs while I was in university at Fraser Mills in Maillardville. We set new shift board foot records every year.

I was young and stupid then.

The statistics on overall deaths and injuries - especially compared with years when there were lots more folks in the woods - don't seem to bear that out.

quality of logs - accidents in Bush

I was not saying they were old growth Doug Fir, Climber. They do, however, make perfectly useful studs for most single family dwellings. Once they are sheathed, they provide plenty of structure. for walls. Lightweight pine (like spruce) studs are preferred by framing carpenters as they make the work go faster.

And, yes, they are running feller-buncher-stackers and processors with the small wood; but they ram through it at breakneck speed and they have more trucks trying to run ever faster trips. Long hours and fatigue is most likely also an issue. Deaths were way down, but it is undeniable that there were more accidents in the first half of this decade. Perhaps it has gotten better in the last year, I haven't heard the new figures. Also, some of the dangerous ones may have been weeded out (perhaps by themselves).

Racism or ?

The fact that we are discussing loggers in the same thread as the farm-workers says to me that this isn't about race or religion, but about workers being exploited.

How many of us wouldn't get in the van without seatbelts if it was going to cost us our livelihood?

Precisely Stump

All the rest of this is just obfuscation for a government that cares a great deal about its friends and collaborators and less than nothing about the rest of the citizens of the province.

That nothing has happened yet on this file is hardly a surprise.

Sad – but until we get an electoral system where the actual wishes of the population determine who sits in the Legislature nothing much will change. These guys are bought and paid for and they know who’s paying the piper.

The only aspect of farming that the average neocon cares about is the price of the produce coming out of the farm gate. How the inputs who get it there are treated isn't even on the radar and anyone who pretends otherwise is naive.

FarmWorkers:

When I picked out in the fields... the imported labour pool was almost exclusively Chinese. Most of them came from Vancouver. Good hard-working people.

However, the last 20 or so years, much of the farm labour pool is East Indian, and most of these are people in what would normally be their retirement years. I am not going to debate this fact, I see it literally every day. As I mentioned earlier, these elderly parties also show up on many small construction sites, doing labourer chores as well. Again that is a fact.

Many of these workers live with extended family . They contribute to the household income, and this can add -up to a nice collective sum. This extended family relationship allows for certain Zoning regulations to be exempt that others are obligated to adhere to. These elderly parties , too , tend to be excellent workers. Many of them also tend to travel back to India, especially those employed in crop harvest ie berries, and the farm income allows them to do so, and they often return to India with what ends up to be relative wealth in their native land.

The farmer and the farm worker tend to both benefit from this symbiotic relationship. Immigrants are at times exploited by members of there own ethnic community, it has happend in the past and will happen in the future. Advocates like Charan Gill can perhaps lobby for these parties, work towards addressing what are actual injustices . Mr Gill and his associates are more familiar with the internal cultural dynamics, many of which are still positive.

However, there could be a chain reaction of revolt from top to bottom in the Agricultural sector that the Gov't doesn't want to touch with any length of pole, if Gov't extends its regulatory net and catches many innocent parties.

I myself have seen "shortcuts" taken , but suffice it to say, again, the Gov't still doesn't want to touch many of them with ANY size pole. We'll leave it at that.

Leave, I thought you were already gone

What exactly was the point of your post Maestro?

You tell us a bunch of facts most of us already know and end on some cryptic comment. Can you simply state what you are trying to say? Please. Just. This. Once.

You just don't get it do you maestro

The government - be it Liberal, NDP or Pennsylvania DUTCH has an obligation and a duty - a statutory duty - to address issues of workplace safety, terms of employment, exploitation and equity including hours of work, pay and other issues for the whole province and all its workers. The regulatory relaxation of extant rules in 2003 was wrong and irresponsible and a derogation of the government's duty of care to a specific category of workers. Period.

It does not matter that those workers are women, underage children, people who don't speak English or part of a morbid subculture of agricultural piecework slaves, THE GOVERNMENT IS FAILING IN ITS DUTY TO SAFEGUARD AND ENSURE THE GENERAL PUBLIC INTEREST IN THESE MATTERS.

Debating this is a mugs game. Regulatory frameworks catch guilty people when they avoid valid and proper regulations. That is as it should be. Proper and strict enforcement and an attitude that makes it clear cheaters will be prosecuted is an amazing device when it comes to compliance.

Period. Crying about increasing costs and innocent victims is a complete non sequitur.

This is not a problem for Charan Gill and lobbying is unnecessary. The need for action is now and the kind of action that's necessary is obvious.

The only thing missing is the will of a government that is afraid to act in the public interest. Simple. Further debate is just a dance of dialectic. This turkey's done.

Stump and G West: You both

Stump and G West:

You both waste your own time as well as everyone else's.

Terminally and Certifiably Clueless, and too gutless to admit you want a quasi- Fascist state to protect us from absolutely everything. Oh boy-sky

PS complain to the TYEE editor today did we Stompin Stump-sky?

Ciao-sky.

Another waste of a post

Hmmm....not a very satisfying response to a basic question. Especially perplexing was Maestro's questioning about my political leanings and experience. Would the answer have been couched accordingly?

Yeoman:

The answer is basically posted above.

Tough to discuss and debate when one tries to bring some of the broader details to explain the dynamics more relevant to this issue.

TYEE serial Cyber - stalker St*mp pipes in with " You tell us a bunch of facts most of us already know...." blah blah... though no-one else has said this. St*mp speak for you too Yeoman?

ANSWER: = roadblocks in farm areas. 24/7/365. That forces and enforces compliance.
Let's start yesterday.
Then, let's " fasten our seatbelts " and await the response.
I have my own view of what will happen.

Note my previous comment about the qausi-Fascist state seemed to " harvest" silence from the usual suspects.

PS How about you Yeoman, what's your solution ?

Ciao

Sure did

sez Maestro

No one could believe you were "that" ignorant.

Sure did-sky

Sure was quiet there G West for a looonnggg time ....what gives ?

24/7 /365 for the cause that never sleeps?

Your views supports the premise...like everything else...the quasi - Fascist state " to -cure- society -of- whatever -ails -it -or- else " is your only fall back position /solution in most things.

Why deny it and why keep dancing around it?

At least Alciabides used to be more straight up ... maybe I'll give them a call.

" Hey Alci...."

We already have a daily

We already have a daily growing fascist state, called "globalized, neoclassical market capitalism", ruled and enforced by a clique of the multinational corporate mafia, set up to destroy the democratic decisions making powers of all levels of society, with our present governments pimping for and selling their peoples to them.

Basically the rejuvenation of Soviet bolshevism under a different flag, using the perceived power of imaginary capital, instead of bayonets, to enslave the world.

Ed Deak.

Maestro

Haven't really put alot of thought into it. Roadblocks are part of the solution but really only deal with the most currently high profile facet. Probably one of the biggest problems is that this combines the "perfect storm" of situations - marginalized group in society, general devaluation of food supply, dispersed work site, "special" rules for Ag sector etc, etc. Its going to take alot of input and cooperation from many agencies, sectors etc. This generally is not encouraged in our current state of governence and business

Yeoman

Good points, well said, especially re: The " Perfect Storm " analogy .

Events align on the basis of probability and tragedies happen. Effectively (i)What variables are we in control of and (ii)what others are simply out of our hands?

The past few days a discussion has ensued about a school bus accident. The resulting discusssion inevitably leads to seat belts..ie why are they not implimented in vehicles transporting larger numbers of people?

The answers provided were interesting,ie the seat belts in those contexts, and again under the influence of probablities , was that the seat belts were a greater hazard than a benefit. There would be use of lap belts in these cases , which in an accident would concentrate the trauma, and also the passengers bodies would pivot during a crash, and the body placed in a more vulnerable situation. Hence, no Seat Belts...(this would imply shoulder restraint type seat belts for all passengers would not be practical either ).

In roll -over accidents, the seat belts will not prevent serious injury.

I think the Perfect Storm analogy applies here.

My previous discussion above mentioned or hinted at rules broken all the time. Suffice it to say that Gov't "enforcers" tend to work 9 - 5 (5) days a week. Suffice it further to say awareness of this by various parties and much work is done beyond these hours and also on weekends.

In my view, any enforcement with farmworkers transport will be roadblock based...the old "catch them in the act". The next leap of logic is that farm areas tend to have fewer roads. Hence enforcement will shut down these few roads, unless it is on a spot check basis. This could cause problems , and revolt, especially if it is a major highway. Like most enforcement, it tends to wane, and back to the status -quo.

Hence, these " perfect storm " events are very unfortunate, but unless epidemic, best to keep in their proper context. Again, we only know the aftermath of this accident , not the details leading up to it. This accident may still have happened if 100% compliance was practiced. Let's quit the grave- pimping till the matter is FULLY investigated.

As an extreme example at the other spectrum end...I often watch the show " DEADLIEST CATCH " on the Discovery Channel. These crab fisherman know the risks, its almost 100% risk... yet they feel the benefit trumps the risk.

PS It would be nice if the media did a follow up to see how Gov't is addressing the issue, if it actually can.

A modest proposal

Of course, and the people hurt and injured are only poor immigrants who are piecework slaves to a system designed to give us cheap food and pretty flowers and a high return on shareholder investment.

Why would the government 'want' to regulate that?

This is the unpleasant and unacceptable face of capitalism, unfortunately it is becoming more and more the way things are done in this province.

Update - safety of farm transportation

B.C. farm van failure rate 'alarming'
Last Updated: Friday, April 13, 2007 | 9:40 AM PT
CBC News

Almost 40 per cent of the farm vans checked recently by government inspectors in the Fraser Valley failed to meet safety standards, according to a B.C. Ministry of Transportation report.

The random spot checks began after three farm workers died in an accident last month on the Trans-Canada Highway near Abbotsford.

Three women died last month when the van taking them to work flipped over on the Trans-Canada Highway near Abbotsford.Three women died last month when the van taking them to work flipped over on the Trans-Canada Highway near Abbotsford.

The inspectors pulled over 180 vans between March 15 and 23. Sixty-seven failed the inspections and were ordered off the road. The infractions ranged from faulty brakes to drivers not having a proper licence.

Charan Gill of the Farm Workers Union, who had lobbied for the spot checks, said he knew some vehicles wouldn't pass. But he is surprised the number of problems was as high as it was.

"I was thinking out of 100 vans, maybe 10 per cent of people are negligent and maybe 10 per cent are out of order, not 37 per cent. This is very alarming."

The operators of those vans have been ticketed and fined. But Gill said that's not enough, noting that even now, there are still farm workers riding in vans that are overloaded or have no seatbelts.
Continue Article

"It's quite clear now to the Ministry of Transportation and traffic police that they have to constantly check these people all the time. If they relax a little bit, the same thing will happen all over again."

A ministry spokesman said the random road checks are ongoing.

Now wouldn't it have been something if Minister Falcon had started all this a few years ago - and actually saved some lives?

Scarey stuff 37% is, from

Scarey stuff 37% is, from what are suppose to be law abiding business people... you can bet that the "clipping party" vans that growers are suppose to have follow the rules of the road better... maybe we should make vegetables illegal?