Says it all

Quote:

The middle class, he says, are paying the way for rich and poor. He feels overtaxed and under-serviced. What's more, he resents what he sees as the cushy lives and high salaries of provincial bureaucrats, many of whom he thinks are working redundant or unnecessary jobs.

Just like BC, where Campbell has taxed the middle class to death, to give the wealthy freebies!

Just maybe the 'Greens" will take advantage of the situation here or a new BC separatist party, anything but the Libs and the NDP!

Grumpy

I don't know what you're talking about. Campbell's tax cuts have, for the most part, targeted the middle class - including the most recent cut, which did not cut income tax for income exceeding $110K (or somewhere about there).

He's cut tax at the highest brackets, though we are still behind Alberta. We want to be the lowest taxed jurisdiction in Canada!

Cappy, you live in a dream world

Since Campbell came to power I am paying much more in taxes, hidden taxes. Contrary to the spin, the economy of the province is poor. I am in the retail/tourist field and I can tell you it is poor!

I hate to say it, but the NDP 90's were good economically, we had a good retail trade and we had tourists, not no more. The BC economy is built on illegal drug cultivation > leading to illegal laundering of said drug money in the housing market > which gives a distorted economic outlook for the province.

We have a lack of labour, but instead of true economic forces, wages have not gone up all that much and in fact the government reduced wages by force.

The wealthy in BC got wealthier by tax cuts that were aimed at the wealthy not the middle class and the poor, well we just send them out onto the street.

Take off your rose coloured glasses chum, BC is in a mess, created by a Premier who makes the inept Clark look better and better, every day!

Grumpy

With all due respect, the tourism industry is levered to economies outside of BC. Americans don't come visit BC because our economy is good.

You're right. Tourism sucks. You can't create tourism. The CDN dollar is worth .86 cents on the dollar, versus .55 - .70 cents in the NDP era. It is around 35% more expensive for American tourists to travel to Canada. In addition, Americans have been traveling less since 9/11.

More tourists come from American than anywhere else. It is a struggle in your industry. Look at Whistler, the price of a chalet in Whistler has come down tremendously - though not in USD. Americans bought so much of Whistler - driving prices up the wall. However, there $1M is now only worth about $700. As a result, real estate prices have fallen...

you just don't get it do you?

I'm from Quebec left in 96 when the economy hit bottom, spent 7 years in Toronto and now 4 here in Van.

Listen we do not like any sort of religious authority trying to run our lives. PERIOD.

The ROC seem to be a bunch of assholes indeed in the way that relgious and corporate authority (i.e. unaccountable, undemocratric, dictatorial power) is given a free pass.

I am sincerely disillusioned with the ROC - I lost everything fighting for English rights in Quebec and what do I get for it in the ROC - dead-end jobs and possible homelessness and death.

If someone can help me emigrate to California or NYC I would go in a minute. Or maybe at the end of Spring I will go back top Quebec and tell them my story and perhaps actually help make seperation happen - not for any desire for power, but to preserve civilization itself.

Listen Canada should be a haven from the loony muslim fanatics for those Muslims who believe in the seperation of Church and state and especially for those muslims who want to give up their religion. Instead, those who say these things in Canada are given death threats by the fanatics.

Quebec may be the only place in North America where
liberty can be defended without a bunch of self-interested believers bleat "racism" and "intolerance" everytime someone says it's all garbage and we won't tolerate religions intolerance of the other.

More myths

So Alberta's doing a fine job? Similar myth like the US has tried to perpetuate since the Republican lurch to the right in the 1980's. No use trying to separate a myth maker from his myths, Capitalism, so won't try, but Canada is going to hell in a handbag to make sure that the rich continue to get their perks. Since Alberta leads the nation in environmental degradation at the expense of keeping taxes low (just one example of responsible budgeting) it does not bode well for this nation or the world, that anger misplaced results in mistakes that neither rich nor poor can afford at this time. It is, at least interesting, if not sad, to live at a time when we will be collecting the wages of greed. We have, after all, learned nothing from the collapse of societies in the past but instead cling to the religions of faith and unfettered free markets both of which are nonsense. Take a look at the Easter Island monuments. Nonsense put them up, nonsense destroyed the culture, reality too late, tried to kick them down.
History will be repeating itself--and hell is, after all, repetition.

all of it, (politics) is out of control...

Just like the end of the church's dominance in western culture in the 1500's where priests were too busy debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin...

Time for the 'practical' folks to STOP paying for these fools, and STOP paying any further attention to thier 'leadership'.

Re Canada's other founding nation

Anyone catch 60 MINUTES last Sunday?

In Britain, apparently it is 100% legal for recruiting parties to engage in terrorist activities so log as such activities do not occur within Britain.

I watched a video clip as Bobbies(cops) were standing and observing in " peacekeeping " mode and watching a person of Middle Eastern origin giving a very animated recruitment speech to others of similar background.

60 Minutes interviewd an individual party who was engaged in this recruitment activity, and it had a very nonchalant and matter -of -fact tone to it,...nothing to hide, given it was apparently " all legal ".

The whole world is going down the sh!tter, mostly because the powers that be don't know their asses from a hole in the ground at the start. This is not just a Made -in -Canada phenomenon catering to special orders and special interests.

However, Quebec had best roll with the times...change is inevitable, the rest of the world inevitably either accepts it or has no choice . They can't remain a stagnant Island within Canada and the rest of the world...in fact they may be unwittingly attracting more variables that will result in more and more change.

Perhaps Quebec is the Provincial equivalent of the Queen of the North...rudderless and heading for the Rocks...or perhaps Quebec actually believes its' own in -house socio - political theories can stop the socio -political equivalent version of the Pine Beetle aka big time inevitable changes occurring elsewhere cannot be held at bay for much longer . The longer it is delayed or resisted, the worse it gets.

Cappy

It is way too soon to draw any conclusions about what happened in Quebec yesterday. Suffice to say that there probably won't be a Federal election this spring.

Just wanted to point out to you cappy how incredibly solipsistic you are - managing to tie the low level of the Canadian dollar to the NDP - who of course had nothing to do with it. You are SO obvious. Thank goodness the federal Liberals understood the levers of monetary policy and trade stimulation better than you do

You really are a caution! Oh, and you’ve forgotten the cappo di tutti capo’s big tax cuts for the upper income classes and corporations already? You know the ones. The same cuts in revenue that threw the province into deficit and made the cuts in services and increases in fees and other charges necessary that Grumpy is so accurately complaining about.

How soon we forget. Gordon will have to get out another memo to the 185 to update your memory module.

Many people watching Radio

Many people watching Radio Canada actuallyl went to bed thinking Charest had been defeated, due to an error on the network's part.

Cappy.....you live in a dream world

Cappy, our tourism is dropping because we have a crap product, as for the rest, until one factors in the illegal drug trade, BC's economy is stagnant! The 10 or more billion in created drug wealth is spent here. It's money being laundered into local businesses and real estate. My god, the entire casino business in BC is one of money laundering!

BC's economic forecasts are based on illegal activities, this is why the Americans dismiss Canada and BC as 3rd world potentates, easily amused by personalities like Schwarzenegger and alike!

It's about to come crashing down, just wait!

Grumpy:

If you recall,

....Just last week I posted some facts from an article in the VANCOUVER PROVINCE about how Richmond Council was in immediate need of approx $ 87 Million to fund the Olympic Oval. The projected Land Sales were achieving approx. $43 Million, far below original projections of approx. $70 million.

However, in today's VANCOUVER PROVINCE it states that the City has SOLD the surplus land around the Oval for $139 million (for approx 7 Hectares ie 17 acres). Thats almost $200 per sq. ft. which would be a huge leap in market prices.

So, WHAT happened in ONE week ?

Pity the businesses and surrounding areas. Given the City's new proposed City Center OCP, some assessments within this area have already tripled even before this sale. This will likley be the nail in the coffin for many that currently exist in the area. Highest and best use designation will change drastically and property taxes skyrocket.

( Didn't Vancouver do something similar with it's False Creek lands?)

I find the timing of all this just simply amazing...and a plethora of agendas , hidden and otherwise. Something smells pretty rotten behind the scenes, and watch this travelling side show continue on to a Local Gov't near you.

G - what are you talking about

I never said the NDP had anything to do with the dollar - I have no idea what you are talking about. I said that tourism was better in the late 90s, because the dollar was lower. It just so happens that the NDP was in power in the later 90s.

I was saying that tourism has dropped off because the USD has fallen, vis-a-vis the Canadian dollar. Much like the cost of imports, travel to Canada is not 30% more expensive.

Grumpy said, under the NDP, we had a good tourism industry. I said, tourism doesn't follow good governments and good products. Much like any product, demand for travel in BC - is a function of price and utility. Price has gone up, demand has gone down.

Grumpy seems to feel like the product is crap - which means that utility would have come down. I disagree. BC is the same beautiful place, and tourism from many countries - other than the USA - is up.

"Reasonable Accomodation"

Lots shifted in Quebec last night. One of the biggest shifts was that the hitherto unmentionable question of the degree to which immigrants' cultural and religious practices are to be deferred to by the majority culture. That question is now in play and not just in Quebec.

Part of the ADQ's appeal lies in its willingness to say out loud what many Canadians have been thinking but are afraid to say for fear of the cries of "racism" and the power of Human Rights Commissions. It is a message that the CPC will ignore at its peril.

Richard writes, "Remarkably, all three party leaders consistently sided against accommodation." There is nothing at all remarkable about this. Sustained mass immigration of culturally and religiously heterogeneous people represents a huge issue for French Canadians. It also could well be a wedge issue for many English Canadians.

Leaders, real leaders, have to address rather than ignore, the issues which electors have on their agenda. Charest tried very hard to ignore the issue of mass immigration and, for his troubles, was reduced to a Montreal/Ottawa rump and a mere 24% of the francophone vote.

There is a message there for Harper.

Cappy

That is what you posted. The intent was obvious - instead of saying, let's say in the 90s, you said in the NDP era.

It was just another of your unconscious knee-jerk foolishnesses that you do without even thinking about it.

That's the whole point of the critique.

Now are you going to pretend you didn't write those words?

Maestro...a comment worthy of Sherlock Homes

Quote:

I find the timing of all this just simply amazing...and a plethora of agendas , hidden and otherwise. Something smells pretty rotten behind the scenes, and watch this traveling side show continue on to a Local Gov't near you.

End quote:

I believe you, something unsavory is happening. More high priced flats and condo's yet on CNN this morning, there is talk of a mortgage catastrophe and a plunge in housing prices and greatly reduced consumer spending. I also would like to know who has the financial backing for all this? More unsavory money, me thinks.

A note to Cappy: Tourism numbers are driven upwards by tourists from China, unfortunately they are poor spenders and mainly travel on conducted tours. Just ask those in the 'hurtlands'.

The whole province is driven by a numbers game worthy of any Chicago mobster.!

Grumpy said it clearly: it's the illegal drug trade, stupid!

Grumpy, it always amazes me that so many people can talk about British Columbia's Golden Decade ... booming economy ... real estate prices surging ... labour shortages ... etc. without mentioning, as you just did:

BC's economic forecasts are based on illegal activities, this is why the Americans dismiss Canada and BC as 3rd world potentates, easily amused by personalities like Schwarzenegger and alike!

Quebec Vote:

There is an old joke involving a line up of people ie " equals " and a request for VOLUNTEERS from within the ranks, and those wishing to do so please step forward.

Then, all the parties except one took one step back...leaving this one sole party standing alone in the front. Thus, in theory, this sole party were the "Volunteer" ,albeit in a default fashion.

However, let's perhaps reverse this, and perhaps everyone else is stepping and moving forward, and Quebec is now being left behind.

Much like the Federal LIEberals have turfed the old guard ( which played the classic game of politics by the tried and true rules) it is not a stretch to say that Quebec the Province, so intrinsically tied to Canada- at -large (regardless of whether it is Federal or Provincial level Quebec politics), La Belle Province is also turfing their own old guard and it's ways. No coincidence in this oh so symbiotic Quebec/Federal Gov't relatioship? One leads to the other?

Younger yet clueless Turks at the Federal LIEberal level (ie Dion) and now at the Quebec Provincial Level. Oh so predictable. This transition will not be smooth, in my view a combination of embarrassing to CANADA and ugly within Quebec, and certainly not a sequel to the so-called Quiet Revolution decades ago .

Quebec still separate from Canada ? I think it may be something on par with a quasi-civil war internally, given the rhetoric etc. spewed during the campaign, and the almost equal 3 way split in voting in the Quebec election last night, give or take a few percentages and seats.

That ain't unity,within Quebec or within Canada, that's simply tearing themselves more arses.

Grumpy:

Kudos....

I though it was a misprint in the title of your earlier post..ie " Homes" instead of Holmes...but Homes fits much better contextually .

Good one !!!

immigrants and 'problems'

The cultural impact of immigration is certainly a factor. The further disjunction between rural and urban is another. The tax burden of a grotesquely-unbalanced corporate reach-around to the rich and privileged in this country is a third.

There is no doubt this is true but Charest is hardly the only one unwilling to address these issues.

Mr. Harper's facile attempt to curry favour with both the Lebanese Canadian and the Jewish Canadian communities since he's bee Prime Minister being just the most handy example.

His refusal to address the cultural issues of Native Peoples being yet another at the same time that he plies many corrupt band leaders with cash.

I'm not sure that it's leadership that is the problem though - I think honesty is.

For Harper to claim any authority on the subject - in light of his obvious and extreme attempts to influence the result yesterday's vote - is simply not credible any longer.

Jay Currie

Very good point! You hear more and more people starting to voice their opinion. Canadians, who have been rooted in Canada for generations are starting to grow tired of mass accomodation. Probably now, because it is growing more and more visible. Even my wife gets frustrated hearing about how, we from time to time, go out of our way to accomodate cultures, who make no visible appearance of trying to integrate into the Canadian Culture - and she's a visible minority - though born and raised in Canada.

You hear Tony Blair saying in the UK (which is more diverse than Canada) that new immigrants must do a better job of integrating into the UK society - in the USA, forget about it, you integrate.....or else....

Our country has a changing face. It is happening quickly. I embrace it. I love different cultures. My best friends and business partners are from all over the world.....though, this is going to start to become an issue.

"OLD" Canadians - for years, have silently talked amoungst themselves about this issue - though, rarely publicly, because people are afraid of being branded as a racist. There are signs that indicate this is starting to change. I believe this could be a big issue in the future. Many believe that if you want to come to our great country, you must accept our values - not protest them.

Immigration is here to stay - we need it - it is beneficial culturally and economically. However, will Canada start becoming more like the USA - less of a Mosiac - and more of a melting pot????

Interesting....

Don't write off the PQ (yet)

The party will have to renew itself like it has never done before or go obsolete. I certainly would like to see myself a coalition in between Canadian sovereignty advocates and Québec sovereignty advocates. The PQ almost came across to me as in support of continental integration, the amero, the SPP, etc... This was never debated during the campaign to my surprise although will hopefully make the next federal one.

The PQ certainly deserved IMO the treatment they got last night. Now can they find a real leader? Joseph Facal is the only one I can see that can revive this party.

Tolerance

CBC Ideas podcasts has an interesting 3 part series on tolerance that deals with part of the issues raised above.
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/podcast.html

My take on immigration is that tensions rise as new waves of immigration from different nations and cultures occur. There is an adjustment mostly for the immigrants, but also for the nationals. There are also aspects of culture from both sides that the other finds reprehensible, objectionable, or irritating. However, the children of immigrants are largely integrated into the new culture within the first, or at the latest, the second generation that is born in the new country. The difference in Canada is that immigrants are encouraged to respect their heritage as a matter of official policy, while in the US they are not. Policy that creates an atmosphere for integration that makes a place for cultural difference, while not abandoning its own values, works far better than simply broadcasting an "integrate or else" message. That can lead to cultural ghettos within a country, if unofficial racism that excludes the children of immigrants from full participation as citizens becomes a function of official policy, as it is in many European nations.

The vast majority of complaint I hear from nationals about immigrants has to do largely with issues of minor difference and usually revolve around points of irritation, from accents to clothing and are almost always due to a simple distaste for difference. Immigrants, in many cases rightly, complain about a lack of recognition for accreditation outside Canada, and general lack of respect from some nationals that biases against differences they do not identify with.

Of course there are some major problems with some cultural groups. The treatment and attitudes towards women within some of the families within some of the cultural groups is simply deplorable. In the Lower Mainland we've seen the effects of it in the violence directed toward Indo-Canadian women by other members of their own families; particularly when they attempt to form intimate relationships with men outside the bounds of what their families consider acceptable. Behavior like that needs to be firmly and unapologetically condemned. Unfortunately, however, crypto-racists take incidents such as these and run with them, conflating them to the point of demonizing entire cultures. That kind of behavior is particularly true of muslims, and particularly muslim immigrants in the west.

Sadly, the corporate media also likes to play up ethnic tensions, while giving far less attention to corporate malfeasance, and the intricate practices of tax avoidance that the richest 1% of the elite are using to consume ever more of the world's wealth. So nationals end up spending more time getting angry about the struggling new immigrant who dresses funny and has (usually) darker skin, who suddenly seems to be trying to impose his sensibilities by his mere presence.

james burns you are wrong, dangerously wrong

the cbc is a politically correct organization that sucks up to religious authority in 2007. They cannot be considered a balance source of information

You can bullshit all you want buddy, but the facts are clear. We HAVE NEVER HAD these levels of immigration. PERIOD.

It's not hatred or fear of immigrants, but far too many for us to handle when there is no policy for integration.

The Muslim world has translated fewer books in the last 500 years than France in one yaer.

Get a fucking clue before you start justifying your white guilt with reams of nonsense.

Get a job

Some people like to take their anger over their own difficulties out on convenient targets. It's a lot easier to blame others than look to your own behavior for your problems.

fear and loathing

I've always though that it's easy to pick a racist out of the crowd when they issue the caveat: "I'm not a racist but..."

The guy whose brain is on fire needs to chill out. Why so much anger and why must you simplify the issue into 'political correctness'? James Burnes is dead on. I believe most immigrants do try to integrate in Canadian culture (whatever that may be) while at the same time holding on to their own traditions. Integration policies are racist no matter how you try to spin it.

Scary Harpies? + New Poll

I notice a few commentators are opining that the ADQ's strong showing, and the Liberal minority, with the PQ a weakened 3rd finisher, may be a recipe the Harpies may like.

Harpo's "boy", Charest remains premier. The strength of ADQ ("the only true conservative party remaining in Canada" - A. Coyne), shows Quebeckers are willing to vote for a right or right-center party.Thus they may be willing to vote for the Harpies in greater #s.
****************************************
But I see a welcome new (pre-Quebec election)national Decima poll out today showing Cons retreating from "majority territory".
2 prior polls, by Ipsos Reid and by Strategic Counsel, both showed Cons around 40% - potential majority territory.

But the Decima poll
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070327/n032767A.html
shows Cons now with only 35% vs. Libs 31%. Close.

The Cons ARE now 4 points ahead of Libs in Quebec though. But good news is the Libs have a commanding lead over Cons in Ontario, 41% vs. 33%.

The upshot is, Harpo's (cynical) budget has not gone over gangbusters, as he'd hoped.

This new poll also leaves me somewhat suspicious (again) of Alan Gregg's Strategic Counsel, and even more so, of Darrel Bricker's Ipsos Reid.

The last Ipsos poll showed the reverse Ontario results compared to Decima's, i.e. Ipsos gave the Cons something like an 8 point lead over Libs in Ont., a worrying development. Now we have just the opposite.

So, how could Ontario sentiment change in favour of Libs by 16% points in about one week, or less?
Especially when the Harper budget was Ontario-friendly and was praised by Ont. Premier McGuinty.

It doesn't "add up".

Ipsos Reid's poll WAS commissioned by CanWest, which may be relevant.

CanWest/Ipsos have already demonstrated they're not above "shaping" poll questions and data, and "interpreting" poll results, to fit a preconceived political agenda. (e.g. see CanWest's coverage and polling last August re. Israel's war against Lebanon).

Low level Quebec bashing

It is refreshing to see these review comments mainly without the Quebec bashing often encountered when Quebec makes up the "national", shall I say, news.

gaulois

I absolutely agree. The rumours of the demise of Les péquistes are greatly exaggerated.

That result was extremely close and the Liberals virtual rejection by the vast majority of the francophone vote - especially outside the Island of Montreal and the Eastern Townships is not something to ignore.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine how negligent are the memories of Canadians in the Rest of Canada relative to both Les créditistes québécois and L'Union nationale - both of whom are far closer analogues to the ADQ than the CPC.

James Burns

my anger is at the frustration of having to deal with people like you who would prefer to wallow in your own illusions rather than face reality.

and of course I love your ad hominem attack

I use facts-based arguments you use class-based arguments.

Proofread Please

I like The Tyee but please, let's keep the quality up. Who's proofreading?

A pair "of" ...?

"Spokesman?"

Cheers.

anger management

The fire in your brain, methinks, is causing some damage:

"Get a fucking clue before you start justifying your white guilt with reams of nonsense."

Your unprovoked words mybrain...; and then you accuse others of ad hominem attacks. Hello kettle! You're black!

"I use facts-based arguments..."

Are you referring to this fact:

"The Muslim world has translated fewer books in the last 500 years than France in one yaer(sic)."

Great mybrain..., you've taken an fact that has nothing to do with the original article and used it to justify your obvious hatred of muslims (and possibly the french). If that's your reality mybrain..., I'd like nothing to do with it.

ADQ and Harper

From what I have heard of the ADQ they are closer to the Reform party in their policies on immigration and minorities. Too bad for Harper he is now a centrist...or is he???

After the Quebec referendum in 1980 the issue of separation should have been dead for a generation. Then Mulroney got into bed with the separatists and revived their fortunes creating the Bloc Quebecois and leatding to the referendum of 1995.

Now the ADQ want more autonomy for Quebec and Harper whose polical life and time as president of the National Citizens Coalition has been dedicated to dismantling the federal government, things do not look well for our country.

ubiquitous and insidious

yeah take the quotes out of context...you rock baby! Read my first post.

I was commenting on why simply saying someone is anti-immigrant or racist when one speaks of these things, as Burns implied in his post and the CBC pushes constantly, was factually incorrect - it's not brown skin or immigrants that are the problem but ideas.

The book translation thing backs up we should be doing a lot more to educate and integrate folks from countries still in the middle ages of thought.

But I get it, believers like to stick up for each other. So whatever - I'm out.

Enjoy.

Thanks YlaReina...

...For catching my mistakes. They have been corrected.

Richard Warnica

Mel from Calgary

Duplessis and the National Union didn't exactly welcome minorities of one kind or another either - are you familiar with this rather infamous case?

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/fr/browseSubjects/roncarelli.asp

Bloody right they don't

Canada is at a cross roads, will it remain a country or will it fragment. At this point we have the BC Premier trying to sell off BC to the Americans at fire-sale prices; Albertans who just want to be Americans; the two other prairie provinces at the mercy of the feds; Ontario which believes it's the centre of the universe; Quebec which lives in its own lil subsidized world; and the maritime provinces stuck in a historical black hole. Not to mention the three Territories, which try to pretend they are a province and not a colony.

Unless someone really cares, the second largest country in the worlds may fragment and the remains assimilated by the USA, to further feed their corrupt and bloated lifestyle.

Who is not afraid to speak up for Canada? Who is not afraid?

Good to hear from you, Bobb999

How refreshing it is, to hear the truth of polls finally spoken concerning polls!

While peoples memories are faulty and rusty, weren't these same polsters out a full 5 percent just days before the last election with the exception of Decima who spoke it straight, with all of the Canwest american bought (and the rest of the pack mentality rags) media predicting a possible Con majority? You know, get everyone saying, "well, this Conserative government is the peoples choice, no one's scared of them, U.S. integration hype is all myth. Look at the polls!" Yah, it might work on a few dullard "yes" men/women who can't think for themselves.

(sigh...)

But what people aren't realizing federally, is that Ontario holds something like 145 MP seats in this country. If they pick up 100 in Ontario, 20 in Quebec, 3 in the North and another 20 in Atlantic Canada, the West might just get their wish. They might be able to call the next federal government majority with the count of the votes out west. But the west won't get that kind of chance. No, they'll get the kind of chance for calling which kind of minority government leads this country instead. The Libs will fall short of these outlined targets... but still form the next minority government.

Ontario's support for the libs federally does not lie and its easy to see why when one looks. Guys like Baird and Flarehty just aren't that liked. In fact, a good chunk of Con MP's are former Davis MLA's. People voted for MP's like this with the "need for change" with Gomery but not this time around. Gomery already has cob webbs but the people of Ontario have not forgotten who sits in these MP seats of the Cons. They don't get crap news that comes out of Canwest. Did Toronto give the Cons a big hug in the last election?

Fact is, Ontario support for the Libs has held steady at around 40% for the last 6 months or more, according to Decima. And if anyone has looked at the MP roster of Ontario, there are a good number of solid seats there with the Libs and what of Garth Turner? Is he independent now? Nope. He's liberal and that has to hurt the Conservatives more than anything else that has happened over the last year, along with the fact that McGinty is liked in Ontario and Harper despises him. Put it all together, and Ontario goes overwhelmingly Liberal in the next federal election by at least 85 seats. If the Libs get a hundred plus...

And thats something for all of us number crunchers to think about, especially party strategists. Who really wants the next election? The Cons? The Libs? The people? I'm ready to vote.

As for Richard Warnica's piece

Just to keep this thread back on track with "the theme" of the story...

Boy oh boy is it ever. Quebec has always jealously guarded its identity. Its no surprise to see politicians exploit it. From the PQ and Bloc separatists to the federalists of the day, there isn't a Quebecer that embraces U.S. foreign policy and "ownership" of everything Quebec owns... and regardless of whether or not Quebec forms a country, the U.S. will still percieve them to be a market for corporate takeover, like the rest of Canada and other nations worldwide. This will never change and Quebecers know it. Point is, they simply do not like to be owned or controlled. What a wonderful heart this country truly has.

So unless the Conservatives suddenly change their brand of "lets sell out to the Republicans and corporate U.S.A." ways... Quebec will remain a clear voice within Canada that keeps Canada itself, distinct. Socially and logically, their survival depends on standing on guard for what really is true, north, strong, and free... and that sure doesn't include the sellout to corporate U.S.A. no matter how one slices it. And folks, one last time, what does Harper truly represent? What does this former National Citizens Coalition prez represent other than U.S. born multinationals and the Republican party itself? Newbie's, read it for yourselves. He only represented this organization from late '97 to late 2001 before stealing the Conservative leadership of Canada. The NCC's agenda is found here.

http://nationalcitizens.ca/doc_bin/agenda_canada.pdf

For Grumpy

How about lil' old me?

Lorne McCuaig (Canadian patriot)
Revelstoke, BC

I'll run for a seat!
Someone put a microphone in front of my mouth! NDP, Green, Lib, federal, provincial, I don't care, I'm game...
:-)

A common statement is that

A common statement is that folks don't vote for parties they vote against parties. Charet, the ex Conservative has obviously done a lousy job running Quebec and even with Harper pushing money into that province he almost lost his seat, and the government. We were stationed in Quebec way back when Duplessie ran the place with help of the Catholic church.

What a shock when we found so many weird things going on. Our spouces had no legal right in the cae of children, and lots of other strange things.
But we did find rather quickly, that the locals vote quite strategicly. Seems to have done it again this time. Charet either gets along with the other two parties, or will be looking for a new job.

This discusion has nothing to do with BC or Alberta. The header is quite clear. Quebec, Angry and Torn. No mention of Campbell or whomever it is running Alberta since King Ralph left.

I've just heard Campbell on the radio

Making a complete idiot of himself with a trope about how the 'world changed' as a result of the election in Quebec. 'Separatism is dead and that's very good for business and Canada'.

Mon dieu quelle horreur

The man makes King Ralph look good - and that's not easy.

yeah Campbell's weird

seeing him only from the prism of May 2003 onward I don't understand how he could have been mayor of Vancouver - boggles the mind.

Guess greed conquers all, eh.

As for the federal repercussions of the QC vote, you know it's rule that if there are non-seperatists in the National Assembly, then seperatists (the Bloc) get elected more than federalist parties.

Harpo better call an election soon or any boost from the results - if there are indeed any at all - will be lost when the Quebecois start to see exactly what two right of centre parties (Charest Liberals and Dumont ADQ's) bring to the table.

But you know what - I moved to Harris's Ontario and then Campbell's BC, so maybe I'll go back to QC now that loons are charge there too. lol!

Smash the System

As Richard mentions in the article, there is a strong sentiment, in Quebec, that the high-tax and lavish social system does not work. As he says, government workers are doing well but the poor are experiencing a drop in services because the state just cannot afford to maintain the social plan. The ADQ has being saying this and that's a substatial reason for their surge. Independance is a luxury that sruggling workers couldn't care about when times are bad and manufacturing jobs keep vanishing.

Quebecers are gradually coming around to agree with the Pour un Québec Lucide group that says that the taxes have to come down and the lavish social programmes are causing too much debt for the present budget and particularly for future generations.

The immigration squabbles are just a natural feature of hard times. People don't become so excited about such things when all's going well.

The French model will change along with most other western countries that can no longer sustain the high-tax and pampered society that a competitive business climate needs in an evolving world. The ADQ is to the right of the Charest Liberals and they surged. They know it has to change and Quebecers are beginning to agree, en masse.

Federal Budget easily Passes

Everyone in la belle province likes Mr. Harper.

So, yesterday Quebec Liberals and the ADQ like the Tories and today the Bloc supports the Budget, so that means that the PQ like it too. I guess the only Quebecer that doesn't like it is Dion himself.

Is there anyone in the country that actually wants an election?

If there is Stephen Harper is ready.

Wellll - r / man...I'm not sure I agree

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree. You might want to spend a few hours pouring over this.

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/312.pdf

We here in Canada are a bit retrograde of course - and we'll have considerable time to contemplate the error of our ways if we elect Stephen Harper (whom, rest assured, Les péquistes and most of their fellow Quebecers DO NOT LIKE but will tolerate) with a majority government.

Chantal Hebert tries to be balanced in her report in today's Star, but, read carefully, it is plain she's saying the PQ's problem is likely the same as the federal Liberals, at bottom - they chose the wrong leader.

The irony is that M. Charest will have to go to those same péquistes to maintain power for any length of time.

Anyway, above there is the report I think you ought to contemplate before you decide that right-wingism is the long-term future for this country. Capitalism has already made us mean and selfish; with no sign of any improvement in the actual quality of the lives the vast majority of us lead. In fact, things are today much worse than they were 25 years ago and we are a meaner, nastier and less friendly place than we were then. So many years of neo-con economics will do that to a nation - Harper's solution, as I think I've demonstrated quite conclusively, is just making things worse.

Heaven defend us from the depredations of Stephen Harper and his lying acolytes of the hard right. Things are bad enough already – as you must know, judging from your sympathetic report of your friend’s dilemma. WHy can't you be more understanding of the plight of the rest of the 80% who are also firmly behind the eight ball?

You don't write like a nasty man.

Plus vous change...

Call it right-wingism if you wish to. I'm agreeing with writers comments and sensing what's blowin' in the wind.

The Quebec dirigiste and lavish social plan is not working. The times they are a changing.

Now, you may believe that a hard rain's a gonna fall but I don't think twice, it's all right.

Pick up the latest Economist and read the pieces on Jacques Chirac's legacy and the France of today. Same story. Troubles in the lavish society may well have to be faced with more pragmatic economics.

Ed Stelmach

Honest Ed is the leader of the Govt. of Alta. DPL. You should pay attention to your neighbor. How insulting.
The election in Quebec helps Canada.
The tide may be turning there. The welfare sate they has created is not sustainable.
$7.00 per day for daycare, no matter what your income is?
Give me a break.
We in the west pay for all this BS, but it's okay.
As a die hard western conservative, I am willing to buy them off, if it paves a way to a majority government for the CPC.
Then we can really rattle your cages.
Slashing the power of the federal govt. is my goal.
No more CRTC,CBC.EI,CRA, all the evil bilingual federal CUPE civil service Employees should be shaking in their boots right now.
Don't look to me for any sympathy you slackers.

No Need to Work with the PQ

West, I just watched Super Mario pledge that he will work with Charest in a quasi-coalition capacity and has no intention of triggering another vote. Ergo; no need or requirement to work with the PQ, as you imagined.

If, as you say, things are so much worse than they used to be, then why do you think that the Quebecers utterly rejected the socialist ideas of the Parti Quebecois and massivly embrased the two conservative parties?

I'm very concerned, to answer your question, with the plight of the less-successful but, where we differ is that I believe that a tax base that encourages self-improvement for both businesses and individuals helps both those businesses and those individuals. Whereas, you, seem to think otherwise. You said that you've worked for less than honest people. Too bad. My father always told me not to do that. You should try and get over that. Not all businesspeople are nasty.

I think G West is more correct

but that's just me born and bred in Montreal...we love our social programs...it'll be the heavy union costs that will end before the actual programs do. There's are a lot of union cash there that those who are not doing so well resent more than the programs themselves.

I'm agnostic on the union thing.

But yeah the taxes are through the roof too. In 93 I made 30k and 45% of my income was taken up with taxes, pension and sales taxes. For real.

My preference would be to eliminate corp. subsidies before programs and I would bet dollars to donuts most QC'ers would too.

that's reality in la belle province.

Well r/man

Jacques Chirac is certainly dirigiste but he and his Prime Minister are hardly left wing. Seems to me we’ve had that discussion before.

The problem is that the SYSTEM you believe in has created this hell on earth and you now blame the culture of entitlement that characterizes it when the truly entitled are the top 10% of the population in this country and in the US who have "taken advantage" of the rest of the population by lies, by cheating and through an economic system that is so severely tilted in their favour that all the balls are ending up at one end of the table. This is simply a fact - and in the United States people are slowly coming to realize this.

Look just above me here at IAMC (or Cappy if he were around) for your apparent allies. Not to mention Gordon Campbell as a fellow traveller. You've already written about how bad you think HE is.

What are you going to believe, what I tell you, or what you can see with your own eyes and in the eyes of your young friends?

Compare IAMC Ron's ability to understand and analyze with mine - to demonstrate what the problem is and point out how to fix it in a reasonable, rational and equitable way which spreads the costs and benefits of a genuine economy in a fair and not a compromised fashion - and then come back an tell which side of that fence you want to come down on.

It all has to do with the kind of company you keep my friend. The choice is up to you.

Not all businesspeople are nasty.

Of course they are not: but the exception always proves the rule my friend.

Time to give up those entitlements, refashion a fair tax system and come out of the closet and admit that all work has dignity and value.

Those are VALUES to live by. We exist in a criminal system now and it has to change. Harper will make it worse.

And, if Dumont thinks that a right wing alliance with Charest will work in PQ....man, you ain't seen nothing yet. Ever been in Montreal during a transit strike?

How do you see a virtual 3-way split in the popular vote (especially when virtually all the English vote went to the Liberals and virtually none of the French vote did) as an overwhelming rejection of the PQ?

Did you not read Chantal? The point is, just as with the Federal Liberals, the PQ picked the wrong leader. Just give 'not so super Mario' some time and the people of Quebec will reject him completely. Après tout, he represents ( a lot like Harper) not much more than a return to the bad old days of Le Chef

Corporate subsidies

Gildan became perhaps the biggest maker of t-shirts in the world. They just announced today that the last factory in Quebec will close and that all production will be moved to Honduras.

Even lavish subsidies can't stop market competition economics.

Unemotional Facts

West

I'm not really interested in any particular ideology but I am interested in facts.

I'm just reporting on the way the wind is blowing.

an overwhelming rejection of the PQ

West, watch Radio Canada etc. and see that yes, the Eglish speaking ridings voted Liberal but the overwhelming French ridings all over the place voted ADQ, not PQ.

Dumont has been around along time. He first appeared in 1991 at the time of the Allaire Report and was the founding member of the ADQ in 1994. He's been there now, as leader, for 13 years.

Well, the fact is that French Quebecers

Have deserted the Liberals and, traditionally, when the PQ is not the government in Quebec the folks from Quebec like to send a whole boatload of Bloc members to Ottawa. The latest polls indicate that pee wee is going nowhere in the province and neither is Dion so I'd put my money on more BQ members on the Rideau after the next Federal election.

The PQ erred by picking André Boisclair as their leader but they aren't going to make that mistake again.

Anyway, my remark - the one you quoted above - was more in respect of the difficulty young people are having finding a way to make their way in world (your friend with the $50,000 bill for 5 years of rent, remember) because of the unfair, dishonest and inequitable world you and I have created for OUR SELFISH REASONS and which we refuse to change except by making it worse.

Trickle down market-based economies make theoretical sense in a classroom - in practice all they've served to do is make the cream thicker at the top of the barrel and the skim milk bluer for the rest of the world (even here in the west).

I'm not calling for any Marxist revolution, I'm calling for the adoption of a fair tax system and the removal of corporate perquisites - because the way we've been doing it is a disaster - those are the facts.

More Facts

33% Liberal

31% ADQ

28% PQ

Those are the facts - a 4% change between the PQ and the Liberals and, presto chango, their position reverses.

I don't call that much of a repudiation.

Has Dumont ever served in the National Assembly? A lot of people have been around for a long time. Gordon Campbell was mayor of Vancouver before he became premier. Hasn't helped him do anything but assist him to serve his corporate masters a little faster and a little more comprehensively.

I don't think Dumont's experience or lack thereof means much, although Chantal seems to think he was happy not to actually be the Premier after last night.

Time will tell - whatever happens, unless we get rid of Harper in the federal election we are all going to be far worse off - of that I'm convinced. Did you notice John Reynolds name in the news again. One week and two old skeletons rattling in the closet of pee wee's brain trust - you suppose there's more where that came from?

Anyway, gotta go.

How's your research?

Allan Greg:

"We've never had the BQ at 33 per cent, and Harper knows this," said Gregg. "He knows that the lower the BQ vote is, the larger is the pool of soft federalist vote -- and the larger that gets, the more chance he has of consolidating it."

Has Dumont ever served in the National Assembly?

He's a veteran West.

I guess you don't know Mario. Dumont was elected as an ADQ member of the National Assembly for Rivière du Loup in the 1994, 1998, 2003, and 2007 elections.

Oh I knew that R/man

I was simply pointing out that he might as well NOT have been there for all the good it’s done him and I was more interested in the parallel between Campbell's experience and
what little it has meant for British Columbia. You don’t need experience to lie and break promises – for some folks that just comes naturally and Mario Dumont's rather meaningless background doesn’t exactly make him ready for power either. As I said, he’s a lot closer to Duplessis than anything else – that’s already evident from some of his stated policies.

As far as polls and pollsters are concerned, and Allan Gregg is about as useless as such folks get, the only poll that means anything is the one on election day. A week is like a year in politics.

You need to read Chantal Hebert a lot more closely and ignore almost everything from Canwest. They mistake cheerleading for facts and they're not sensitive enough to the realities of Quebecers either. My French Canadian friends are already upset by the purblind gloating in English Canada from big media - much like Parizeau blaming immigrants and allophones for his defeat in the last referendum, Quebecers are much more attuned to nuance than les maudit Anglais my friend. They are 'French' after all, not wooden-hearted Englishmen.

Gloating and cheering - the kind seen today - is a really bad idea; almost as bad as taking the province for granted. Just go back to Richard's report that sits up top of this thread and recall what he had to say about M. Parent who "saw Anglophone Canadians as, in his words, "a bunch of assholes." This is a typical young temporary ADQ voter r/man and I don't think he's likely to be a long-term supporter either.

As Chantal Hebert points out very clearly, the problem with the PQ WAS their leader.

The Bloc clearly don't want an election now, as I pointed out long before the election - all their resources have been spent and they'll simply keep Harpo in power probably for as much as a year – perhaps two.

Remember, he has to be thrown out in a non-confidence vote or break another promise.

Perhaps you've forgotten that the next federal election date is October 19, 2009.

Harper will have to engineer his own defeat and I can't imagine it being over an issue that confounds Quebec now, can you?

RealisticMan

You're trying to build a mountain out of a molehill I'm afraid. Charest coming close to losing an election does not a revolution across the western hemisphere make.

I don't remember me claiming in 1991 that capitalism was on its last legs because Harcourt got elected in BC.

Perspective. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

t-shirts

By the way, moving your t-shirt plant to Honduras from Canada could just as easily be a repudiation of Harper's policies as Charest's.

And by the way, I for one have never considered Charest to be a lefty.

Anyway the t-shirt factory isn't moving to Alberta either.

Then again, maybe t-shirt making has nothing to do with Quebec, Alberta, or Canada. Maybe its just capitalism chasing a buck and moving to a place they can pay their workers even less money while taking advantage of the fact they still have access to the North American market and don't have to rely on the great wages of Hondurans to purchase their t-shirts.

I've been saying it for years. Let companies move anywhere they want but never give away access to your market for free.

My Brain....

I doubt you'll do that! It seems clear to me that you are following the jobs. Employment has been strong under Campbell, and strong under Harris!

Glad to have you here......you can thank the tax cuts!

Reading Chantal

West, you say I'm wrong and I should read Chantal more. Looks like Chantal's been reading me.

MONTREAL–In the wake of Monday's seismic Quebec vote, the thousand-dollar question on Parliament Hill is whether Prime Minister Stephen Harper could match Mario Dumont's stunning performance in the next federal election. The answer is a cautious yes.

As I said, "...Quebec Liberals and the ADQ like the Tories and today the Bloc supports the Budget, so that means that the PQ like it too. I guess the only Quebecer that doesn't like it is Dion...".

As I also said, nobody, except for a few that dream that the Conservatives are imploding, wants an election.

How did the NDP do in Quebec? Has Jack said anything exciting?

R/man - you're not a careful reader.

NB - the word 'cautious'. What does its use connote to you?

Not quite sure what your point is?

You need to go back to what I wrote my friend.

a) The bloc doesn't want an election - they just helped pass the budget;
b) A week or a month is an eternity in politics;
c) My point relative to Chantal was in respect of your claim that the PQ's result was not because of their leader;
d) I certainly never said the conservatives were imploding;
e) Your point about Dion is old news - you'll note I compared the PQ with the Liberals for making bone-beaded choices about their leadership.

Don't you actually read? Let me know if you have some new ideas. So far it's just same old same old my friend.

Always keep in mind that my prediction - since January of 2006 was that Harper would get his majority, the fact I think he's a hateful person and will be a disaster for the kind of country I believe in notwithstanding, I still think that is the case.

You're the one who's happy with that situation and that's an emotion I can't undrstand from a thinking person.

We are already on an out-of-control train and tens of thousands of families are falling off for a variety of reasons. Even the folks in the good seats are crumbling under the pressure - like your friend - and you want more of the same.

I'd say you're going to have to be the one to come up with a good explanation someday, not me.

Harper will still have to engineer his own defeat and I can't imagine it being over an issue that confounds Quebec now, can you?

Not sure what your point about Jack Layton is anyway. You expect the 4th party in the House to have any influence in these matters.

I’m pleased you vote for Jack, he needs all the help he can get – frankly I’d have thought you were a Liberal, that’s the traditional colour of opportunism in this country after all.

you're right cappy

I am following the jobs...like I have choice, lol!

peace out everyone

GWest, AKA's probably multiple, is voting for Harper!

Since he claims that I am voting NDP!

Maybe I should keep some of these crazy posts. Y'a know what? Maybe there's a book in it?

Dear Garth,
I know that you are a VIP here but not every single post is directed to you in its entirety.

With all due respect.

Your obedient servant, etc., etc.

Signed; Call'em like you see 'em.

You Well,

When you start a post like this:
West, you say I'm wrong and I should read Chantal more. Looks like Chantal's been reading me.

I don't think I should be faulted for thinking you're addressing me.

As for my remark about Layton. You should hone your sense of humour my friend, you're the same guy a few days ago who called me an extreme radical Marxist or some such thing.

All I want is a fair system of taxation, a decent and representative method of electing our governments and the end to corporate kleptocracy and I'd be happy with a reasonably competitive mixed market economy.

The problem is you and Stephen don't want that. You want to print the cards, shuffle them, set the rules and be permitted to cheat when it comes time to ante up.

You don't call 'em like anyone sees 'em - you call them with your eyes closed my friend and you'd sooner see your own friends screwed by the current system than change it.

My view that's a moral cop-out.

Cappy is a Jr Chamber of Commerce member - he doesn't know any batter; my view, you do.

MyBrainIsOnFire

You can thank the federal gov't for sending billions and billions of extra dollars to BC the last few years.

Coyne

West, read Andrew Coyne today, he and you agree.

Back to work now.

like a stopped clock shows the real time

twice a day; the actual time and Coyne time strike the same hour concurrently very occasionally - it happens not often and certainly won't happen for long.

Maybe he's been reading me.

The behavior we’re seeing illustrated just now is a consequence of two factors:
1) Wishful thinking, especially on the part of innocent and well-meaning people who really ‘care’ about the country but don’t ‘know’ much about it, and;
2) Political spin, the action of a manipulative class of politicians and their corporate enablers and hangers-on (many of whom are in the media) who believe in a kind of sympathetic magic; that is, that repeated often enough certain factually tenuous propositions will in fact become true.

yeah every once and awhile Coyne is dead-on

makes me wonder if some of his more insane columns might be right...but not for long >;p

I'm reading his column now and it is pretty damn good.

- I did also think for a moment he might have actually seen my comment on the Globe site (where I use my real name - horrors!), but no he prob saw what was happening without any input from G West or myself....

the url - my bad..

http://tinyurl.com/2zrytn

Calling " errata"

Quote:

...." he doesn't know any batter " ? Freudian Yogi Berra-ish slip ?

PS At least they didn't type " sex " instead of " sez " .

Not at all,

Didn't you know cappy was a flop as a pitcher too?

leave cappy alone

with this typo-thing c'mon it's an online forum not life and death

It's good to hear other voices that disagree with your own. I for one am grateful to read his perspective. Debate is the only way to go folks - killing or making the other destitute and marginalized is not.

Echo chambers can deafen you to other points of view that have re;evance and reduce you to quivering mass of circular thinking.

Where's da love!

MyBrainIsOnFire

(Sorry, I had to leave some shark bait out..ooops I meant dogfish bait, and had a bite pretty quick !).

Just saw that news item about that newly discovered pod of Killer Whales which heads up to Alaska. The scientist (....who didn't talk about Climate Change for a "change" Thank God) talked about something referred to as "cookie cutter sharks", evidence of which was on these aforementioned Killer Whales bodies.

These tend to attack other sea life by taking out chunks of flesh ie in "cookie cutter" fashion, hence the name, and then taking off like quickly scared rabbits. Reminds me of some TYEE posters.

Hope all is going well with you otherwise ...

Enjoy your comments...and Cappy's...et al. Stay with us in the Major leagues...the rest can wallow in the "Non- Dubya" Bush leagues. I see they still tend to posse' and come out from under their rented rock and swing their bats in gang -like fashion at times...(just go "BOO" to ward them off and send them back to the minors).

Excuse me now....Time to throw out some more bait(redundant).....

'but no he prob saw what was

'but no he prob saw what was happening without any input from G West or myself....' do ya think?

maestro wooing his wife

"Off with the clothes dear I'm feeling like a lefty in a rainy virgin forest. Bet those clothes were made in a sweatshop weren't they? Lefties aren't in the real world, everyone knows sweat is good and I'm already feeling slick... slick like a fast ferry being launched... not that I'm fast, that's a lefty trait... if people would watch south park it would be obvious but since none of them watch tv... Now Kenny is the man I'm thinking of, figuratively I mean... Cuz who the hell could think of Kenny at a time like this... Bet those Brits in Iran wish they were here... No I wasnt thinking of sweaty soldiers in a hot desert... I was thinking of where they made that outfit... is that a union-made bra? I'm gonna ride you like you're the Queen of the North... that would be a great place to have sex I bet... damn lefty union people...oh man I got a good one for Alci/GWest... no no I was thinking of you... really... hey come on back!"

220 - nil

"'but no he prob saw what was Elliot 27 minutes ago'but no he prob saw what was happening without any input from G West or myself....' do ya think"

what he probably saw was

what he probably saw was bybrainsonempty and gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? wallowing in self-delusion.

221 - nil

what he probably saw was bybrainsonempty and gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? wallowing in self-delusion

another own goal. Gotta hand it to 'ya El, you take a beating like someone who knows how to take a beating.

did you say something

did you say something multiple alias man? and do you realize that you're the reason this website has lost so much credibility since the unveiling of your despicable little caper?

222- nil

sigh...Talked to friend in Montreal just now

and even though he like me is anglo first language he voted for the PQ last election (not this one though) BUT he did say that even he was tired of the federal nonsense AND YES taxes are still a big problem there.

and yeah he would vote for me if I ran for the PQ - as would a lot of other anglo/ethnics cuz though I'm nothing here I touched a lot lives both good bad (hey anyone reading my rants know I can piss off someone pretty easily) back in MTl...

fear not my friends I am looking for work here or in California first before going home - but as an opportunist (and unemployed) I have to leave all doors open.

maestro don't stop baiting those hooks, but online I believe the term "trolls" are what that species is called.....

Responsible?

"So, Alberta sits there - perhaps the most responsible government in North America ...."

Really, Capitalism? A province of how many people that is responsible for 40% of all Canada'a greenhouse emissions? I guess it depends on your definition of responsible.

A Wake up Call

Sean Silcoff writes:

Not a total loss

We're closer to proving G West is Frank...more proof of that than Climate Change-sky

MyBrainIsOnFire....trolling for mooching trolls is probably the apropos term.

ALSO: Careful, its apparently troll breeding season....It looks like Frank(?) was sending out the rutting signals to G West with their soliloquoy, ya don't want to be caught in the middle. Not sure if clubofrome is getting jealous.

Be Careful

Make sure that the back of your computer is close to a firewall.

Do you read Silicoff in the National Post or the Financial Post?

I put about as much stock in the business pages of either of those papers as I do the elitist and frequently wrong (but usually elegantly-written) drivel in the Economist.

I have several Economist covers lauding Bush's push into Iraq framed on my wall.

We shall see. One thing that's certain, as has been the case in both Canada and British Columbia, a right-wing government (and Charest's was almost that anyway) will make things a lot worse.

You keep forgetting where Charest came from and what Dumont says he believes in R/man.

Don't come complaining to me if things get worse for your rent-paying friends though. I tried to get you recognize WHY things are getting worse.

Anyway, just a little balance to counter your leger enthusiasm

The Decima survey, provided to The Canadian Press, puts the Tories at 35 per cent support nationally, with the Liberals at 31 per cent. The Tories would likely need at least 40 per cent to secure a majority.

The results, gathered Thursday through Sunday, indicate no bump for the party in the wake of last week's federal budget.

In Quebec, however, the Tories finished ahead of the Liberals for the first time in five months with 25 per cent support. The Liberals were at 20 per cent, while the Bloc led with 34. In Ontario, the Liberals have 41 per cent compared to 33 per cent for the Tories.

I think the passage I italicized actually is the most interesting - especially as the provincial impact of pee wee's favouritism start to cut a little deeper. Our Prime Minister is a liar according to some big ads from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Last time I checked they were still part of this country, yes?

I think whichever Tory has the brain cell this week

Is probably a little concerned about that soft Ontario number too, doncha think?

Better wait for the next SES poll

Whatever is best for Quebec seems to now be on the minds of many people. Let's remember that there are three important people that think that a distinct, if you'll allow the expression, turn to the right is what's needed. Some left-leaning commentators seem to disagree and seem to imagine that the Conservatives under Harper and a conservative swing in Quebec is a bad idea.

Well, the three I mention above have, collectively, just about 50 years intimate experience, they all agree that Right is the way to go and now the people have spoken they may well move that way. There may be public-sector strikes but the people will be behind the politicians and the unions will loose.

The Three:
Lucien Bouchard; ex-Canadian Ambassador to France, ex-Minister in Ottawa, ex-Premier of Quebec.
Jean Charest; ex-Minister in Ottawa, ex-leader of the Conservative Party of Canada and current Premier of Quebec.
Mario Dumont; 13 year leader of ADQ and now leader of official opposition.

These three have the power and they are all passionate for the best for their homeland.

I defer to fifty years experience, at the highest level with intimate knowledge of both the International, the National and the Provincial scene.

Maybe time to pick up a modest cabin in the Eastern Townships. My money's on a move Right with an improved economy for all.

Frank = GWest

Damn, you caught me again maestro ol' boy.

Now I (GWest) need clarification, did you say you were trolling for trolls?

RealisticMan

Too bad there's no evidence of this happening. Or are you confusing the terms "improved economy" with "for all".

Because those GDP figures will trip you up when compared to the poverty figures.

Quite often the case is that a so-called "improving economy" actually makes many people worse off.

Probably why although everyone in Canada hates the Liberals the Conservatives are rarely able to form gov't and are never able to replace them as the natural ruling party.

(4?) horsemen of the apocalypse

Strange bunch that's for sure. And just another indication that 150 years of 'experience' isn't worth an awful lot.

1. Lucien Bouchard was part of the Mulroney Cabinet - the crookedest bunch of politicians in this country since, oh, Sir John Eh! Then he went off in a pique to lead the charge to turn Quebec into a country. I think we can acknowledge he cares for Quebec but not a tinker's damn for Canada. OK

2. Jean Charest - Conservative leader of a Right Wing 'liberal' party who has just had 4 years to actually do something and did, in effect nothing - why do you think he didn't get a majority and in fact drove liberal poll levels down. With him still in nominal charge why would you expect an improvement. He's spent the last year with his hand in pee wee's back pocket and look where it got him.

3. Mario Dumont - too soon to say. I think he's no better than an reincarnation of the National Union nightmare but time will tell.

Personally, they sound like 3 horsemen of the apocalypse to me. Just can't imagine why your not add one more horseman and make Jacques Parizeau part of 'your' team.

As for your continued faith in the method of tax cuts for the wealthy as an economic generator: It hasn't worked anywhere yet but I admire your stubborn enthusiasm for a failed strategy.

I sure feel for your friend who'll likely never be able to afford a home without working 24/7 though.

Why do think I distrust Harper. I notice he didn't perform all that well in the house today and this time it was the conmen screaming like stuck pigs and not the Liberals.

I think you need to re-assess your parameters.

What's maestro on about Frank? I never read him anymore - it's a busy time of year for me.

maestro

You don't read the Maestro's postings any more? No problem G, as a public service I will soon be translating his or her postings into the Queen's English as a public service.

Might take 20 years, Frank

Quebec is very interesting in as much as it is an insular and truly collective society. When they come to a consensus on something they thoroughly embrace it and often across the political spectrum. It's one reason that allows the leaders to jump across political lines with impunity. If they do, in fact, adopt the policy enunciated by the present top leaders there is a strong probability that it will be made to work.

No question that, as you say, they've dug themselves into a deep hole but the new generation has less interest in the moaning of the ageing ideologues and want to join the World, whatever that is. It can turn around by the 'right' people saying 'whatever' is the way to go and when the mass collective move it's a powerful symbiotic force. 'T will be interesting.

Harper and a bridge too far

Just put me on the circulation list for the maestro bulletin Frank, the executive summary will be fine, I just don’t have the time for the full translation. Oh, and leave in the skis. They’re the best part.

Seeing the reaction from several premiers in the Rest of Canada today (to the PM's budget) I wonder if pee wee has gone too far with the Quebec friendly mantra. Looks to me as if some of the other natives (lead by Danny Williams) are getting restless.

I think I even heard someone in the PM's team of top-spinners using the provincial leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland & Labrador to try and douse Danny's flame. Which is kind of funny since it was a Newfoundland & Labrador federal Liberal MP who was leading the charge in the house.

Strange days all right.
Whatever miniscule advantage the peester has gained in PQ he appears to have squandered times 3 in a number of other provinces.

I think John Reynolds MUST be running this campaign while Stockboy is busy with security matters.

Maestro translation service

Subject was : Not a Total Loss

What our good friend Maestro is saying here is that he believes the poster GWest and moi are the same person.

Background : In the past he has also claimed Stump and I are the same person and clubofrome and I are the same person. Please understand that anyone who disagrees with Maestro is seen to be the same person. Its all very monolithic and really really sexy.

Maestro doesn't believe that the CLimate is chainging. He thinks that such talk is a lefty plot to stop him from driving his Dodge Dart to the 7-11.

Background : Maestro demonstrates a strong paranoia towards other inhabitants of this planet.

This statement can be loosely translated as "I'm hoping to find someone to talk to me".

I admit this statement can be quite confusing to the uninitiated. Apparently I'm trying to mate with GWest and/or clubofrome in a same-sex, lefty, menage a trois. Perhaps on club's sailboat now nearing Hawaii perhaps? The confusing part is that it has also been stated we're all actually the same person. The boys in the lab coats are working on this conundrum but for now it can simply be taken as equivalent to his raising of one large finger and shaking his hand in my general direction.

insular

Not sure I agree with that. Actually Alberta is a much more insular society than Quebec is. Montreal is, without any question, the most cosmopolitan city in North America - not as multi-cultural as Toronto - but it has none of TO's inward-looking ethos.

There are parts of rural Quebec - the same places where many of Mario Dumont's supporters come from (and where the National Union was also strong) where that is still true - but the whole province - not a chance.

RealisticMan

I believe you're referring to a Quebec version of a political "tipping point".

That Quebecers move politically the way a crowd moves on a BC ferry when someone yells they spotted a whale. The whole crowd moves as one to the other side.

It brings to mind the old line about a would-be leader finding out which way the crowd is going and getting in front of them.

It could be, I won't say you're wrong, I will only say its way too early to tell if the election means anything more long-term than a few months.

In my opinion separatism isn't dead and the best way to get the crowd to turn on a politician is to give him some power.

4 years from now Dumont could be a spent force and Charest could be watching the new Liberal leader on tv.

Now, Now.

Don't be too hard on those guys Westie. They love their nation. I thought you had a real soft spot for the Quebecers you seem to really hate some of them, includng a Pequist, a Liberal and an ADQuist. Do you like any of 'em?

The wealthy are not numerous enough to make much difference with a tax cut or not, therefore, I have never said what you wrote. Tax cuts for the middle class is what's needed, since many at the lower levels don't have to pay taxes anyway.

Britain reduced it's tax rates to a max. of 27% and they're booming now and you don't see any more homeless on the streets. Ireland did the same thing to and although some think the bloom is off the Irish lily it's still booming. Tax cuts do work Westie, sorry but them's the facts.

Could be the Borg

Yes?

Isn't there a Oprah thing that's going around these days that they call the "Secret" - something to do with everyone being connected and people who properly visualizes what they want will get it.

I thought it was Gordon Campbell's campaign strategy for the next Provincial Election when I heard about from a friend.

Any ideas? About as likely as trickle down economics to actually make BC a decent place for all its citizens to live.

Is club on his way to Hawaii? I miss the guy.

Sure hasn't worked here my friend

Moreover, it won't work in Quebec either. And it didn't work in the States and there are thousands of people (not just with sub prime mortgages either) who are now losing their houses down there. As you well know. Especially when the cuts are more than offset by increases in fees and charges in other areas – and not, of course, to forget a few tried and true Fairs and Circuses.

I do love the people of Quebec. They just managed to finally pay off the bill for the 1976 Olympics – remember. I don't love Jean Charest and I'm very suspicious of Mario Dumont - as for Lucien Bouchard - you love him if you want.

If Brian Mulroney hadn't made such a mess of his 8 or so years in power in this country we might have a smaller economy than we do today but I bet it would be far less mean, selfish and nasty. Today's problems aren't all the fault of Paul Martin, not by a long shot.

What's needed in fair taxation across the whole range of economic actors. In fact, there's a good case that taxing every dollar, no matter how earned would permit many advanced economies to reduce tax brackets or even move to a flat tax with generous personal exemptions to meet social needs. You can check it out.

Ireland

Actually, unless you only read one side of the ideological divide there is no reason for you to claim that tax cuts work miracles and Ireland is the example.

Even within Ireland many wouldn't agree with that statement. Certainly not the Irish minister that came to Canada a few years ago and said it was the EU transfers and the access to EU markets and the growing and educated work force and US investment in another english speaking country that fueled the boom.

Britain

R/Man - I have family in Warwickshire and friends in Newcastle. Things are booming - and incredibly expensive (just like here) in London. The rest of the UK, especially Scotland is something quite different.

Besides, half the time the benefits are not going to the people who need it and costs are rising so sharply that the whole atmosphere is as mean and nasty as it is here.

The Irish have compensated by having, I think, the highest rates of alcoholism in Europe. Tell me another one.

New Labour

West, would you say that the, self described "centre-left progessive party" of Tony Blair, born in Scotland, has not governed well and if so, how so?

self-described

Do YOU consider Tony Blair to be on the "centre-left"?

I think he's a moderate right-winger

Certainly not centre left by any stretch of the imagination. Mind you, by comparison with Maggie the T, Attila the Hun would be a leftist.

Like a whale sighting

That's a good analogy Frank and it goes deeply into all of the society. Virtually all the males in Quebec have the name Joseph within thier given names and the females have Marie. When Parizeau was finance minister in the 70's it was decided that Quebecers should move into the businessworld, so they did. Large businesses were helped and small ones were encouraged too. It transformed the society with Quebec governing along the same lines as the French dirigiste style.

The same could be seen at many other levels and in many other areas. There wasn't much jazz in Montreal in the 60's but then along came The Jazz Festival and it became the biggest in the world. Everyone embraced it. Cycling wasn't very pouplar in the early 70's and gradually became hugely popular too. The government saw a niche in the fashion industry and again home-grown designers blossomed, in industrial and graphic design too. All encouraged by government. There's also the 'star' scene that English Canada doesn't have. Musicians, commedians, singers, actors and film-makers, etc. All feted and celebrated regularly. TV shows and a vibrant publishing industry bolsters all these areas. And, everyone, including the public, knows everyone else and the business leaders and politicians join in too. They're all family. It's the main reason that the acceptance of immigrants has often been difficult because up until the early 70's there weren't many visible minorities and change is always accepted gradually. Now that the French language is firmly secured the integration of newcomers is easier since communication exists. It's the type of homogenized society that produces the recent TV ads for Bombardier. A Quebecer in some distant country looks up and says, "that's my plane" or "that's my Bombardier", when seeing a streetcar in Europe. To most Quebecers Bombardier is the collective "theirs". It's interesting.

What will also be interesting is next month France elects a new president and Quebec looks to Europe and particularly to France. Whoever wins will be big news in Quebec. At present it's a close horse race but the result will be interesting, for France and for Quebec, and therefore for Canada.

So what's your point?

So what's your point?

Quebec is a richer and more egalitarian society than we have in the rest of Canada. More culturally rich and diverse, better art, better music, better architecture, more self-confidence and a better sense of themselves than we have here.

And yet all I hear from westerners is resentment.

And not even out of envy because 95% of Western Canadians have never been there.

I was replying to Franks "tipping point" suggestion

The whale analogy

another productive day eh g?

another productive day eh g? boy you sure are doing some good work these days. jack layton will be calling for you anytime now.

Blair

I was reading "Third Time Lucky?", Lessons on how New Labour won in 2005. It's well liked by Segolene Royale in France, the socialist candidate.

If she wins it's an indication of how she would like to lead France.

I, personally, have very mixed feelings about Blair.

tipping point analogy?

Did I miss something?

I think Harper may have reached a tipping point in the sense that any gains he's made by pandering to Charest will now be lost because he's pissed off the other provinces.

Is that the 'tipping point' you're talking about?

I doubt Segolene will beat Sarkozy but she is trying to get out support from the immigrant community - which is certainly positive. I certainly wish her well. The fact she might learn something from Blair's mistakes - especially his lapdog routine relative to Bush and the Americans would be an excellent lesson - is probably a good thing.

Last time I checked the polls were about 26/25 with 24 for Bayrou and 14 for Le Pen.

Way too close to call.

RealisticMan

That would be how I would put it too.

Some interesting observations

From
André Pratte - editorial page editor at La Presse

Plus ca change...

Like all history prominent individuals cause significant change to happen. Both Quebec and Canada are no different.

Mario might fade, others, including Steven Harper might rise - he too might fade, and then again this could be a significant event for both.

The Canadian variation will continue to evolve.

R/man

This seems rather different than your conclusion earlier in the week.

Thank you for the much more nuanced version - it's a pleasure to read.