i've asked the police on this. here's their response:
http://chineseinvancouver.blogspot.com/2006/09/police-say-beating-complaint-too.html

i agree with murdock. falun gong not only need to 'out' their attackers, they also need to prove their horror stories. i remember seeing a professionally taken picture of a falun gong member binding to a chair, guarded by two chinese cops on her sides. the woman claimed that her eye was lost to being tortured. but how would the chinese gov allow someone to take picture of how they torture people? while i definitely believe there is torture going on against falun gong members in china, the stories they present to the west are hardly convincing.

I have been following the Falun Gong story since March. I researched this matter after being given a flyer in Chinatown - and I have found many things wrong with this allegation.

In my humble opinion Falun Gong's actions not only discredited their own cause, they also unnecessarily detracted from honest examination of China's human rights record.

FLG's nefarious indictment muddles the rational discussion of issues such as China's legal reform, and Chinese society's moral and ethical standards on dignity and treatment of the condemned, or even death penalty crossing the cultural divide.

In that spirit, I would like to bring to your attention some contrarian facts surrounding Falun Gong's recent media activity:

(all citations are at the end)

- Mr. Mike Steketee of The Australian had reported in April US congressional investigation finding the allegation a gross exaggeration. An US Congressional Executive Committee on China (CECC) brief subsquently commented on veracity of Falun Gong's claim of genocide.

- US State Department investigated and found the allegation not credible.

- Harry Wu, director of Laogai Research Foundation in DC, investigated the allegation and found the witness unreliable

- Melbourn Australia-based dissident Mr. Zhang HeTse has come forward and supported Harry Wu's finding, while pointing out FLG's phone call evidence is fake.

- The hospital Falun Gong accused in reality is a joint venture with a company affaliated with the Malaysian government. Malay officials have documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public for years.

- Mr. David Kilgour, author of a Canadian FLG report and a long time prosecutor, ignored obvious misrepresentation of evidence in his own report that used autopsy photo as evidence or organ harvesting.

Specifically, Kilgour report Appendix 12, Case 1, involving Mr. Wang Bin. Even according to Falun Gong's own evidence, an autopsy was performed as part of Mr. Wang's murder investigation held by local authority.

However, Kilgour report ignored the misrepresentation and recoreded it as evidence of organ removal, ommitting the fact organ removal by medical examiner during autopsy is routine.

In reality the photo proves the opposit is true.

- Mr. Kilgour can not divorce himself from the fact his report is sponsored by a Falun Gong group in Washington DC that is evidentely political.

In conclusion, while China's human rights record should be examined, writing allegory of "Schindler's List" is not the way.

If we in the west can not be precise with our accusation, only resort of nefarious political indictment and sensational fabrication. Why should anyone take what we say seriousely?

Sincerely,

Charles Liu
Seatle, WA

References:

- US State Department Investigation:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

- Translation of Harry Wu's open letter regarding his investigation of Falun Gong's accusation:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

- Comment by Mr. Zhang Hetse on Harry Wu's open letter (untranslated):

http://www.observechina.net/info/artshow.asp?ID=40224

- Congressional Executive Committee on China brief commented on the reliability of the Kilgour report:

http://exilyn.blogspot.com/2006/08/latest-and-last-report-for-senator.html

- Malaysian government document on Sujiatun hospital visit:

http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke%20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf

- Kilgour Report, Appendix 12 Case 1, Mr. Wang Bin from a 2000 FAlun Gong article:

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html

(Additional references available in my blog: http://sujiatunfactorhoax.blogspot.com)

We have a system in this country, sadly not enough people living here know how to use it effectively.

You mean having to hire security to protect peaceful protests - that system? That this should even be necessary points to how far our country has been willing to tolerate the intolerance of the nations it is so eager to do business with. Peaceful protest should be just that - and respected for it. Random violence by tough-guy hoodlums this may have been; but I've never heard of street toughs attacking religious protestors before, or any kind of protestors. This has "agents of the PRC" written all over it, and the Chinese consul himself/herself should have quickly moved to denounce the violence; that they did not speaks droves about their tacit approval of anti-protest violence that is, after all, normal and commonplace in China itself.

PS Wasn't there a Tibetan protest outside the consulate for a long time, before Falun Gong got in the act?

Everytime I drive by and see the FLG meditating in front of the Chinese Consulate-General on Granville, I'm filled with a warmth and genuine feeling of pride at living in Vancouver - which doesn't happen all that often anymore. . . not since we tear-gased protesters at the APAC summit in 1997.

Not that I approve of the cult-like activities of the FLG - but they sure do know how to piss-off, irritate and scare the Chinese power structure - probably the most adept organization in the world at doing so. And they do it peacefully.

And as China inevitably ascends to predominance in global affairs - this is a lesson they will have to learn: you can't bully everyone into agreeing with you.

That said in light of the Dalai Lama's impending visit, which should prove to be an interesting time. Although rarely political in any of his foreign visits, the example of non-violence in face of brutal repression still stands, even though China is unmoved by it still. Inaction in face of such cruelty in the interests of trade (as always with any offshore power of any stripe) may be non-violence also, but it is passive.

The brutalization of Falun Gong protestors in Vancouver should be a sign to Sam Sullivan and the Premier that it is time they had the courage to deal more strongly with China; from a position of admitted economic weakness (our economic addiction to resource exports), or else lose all moral compunction with the British Columbian and Canadian public as far as being willing to do business with tyranny. Well, hard to find an example where trade with anyone these days isn't like that, I suppose...

But to what degree of tolerance of our trading partners' "political policies", so to speak, will we eventually sell out? If you stop to think about it, more than we have on all counts so far (and I'm scarcely speaking only about China)...it's implicit in globalization/multiculturalism; all intolerance is tolerable in the interests of prosperity...it's always been that way, of course.

It means something about having to sacrifice some of our own moral culture - the progressive liberal ideology that is specifically Western in its roots as much as capitalism and consumerism, and intrinsically intertwisned with both; "western civilization" in the old humanistic sense - to sacrifice that in the course of trying to be pragmatic in the complex world cultural-political arena, from military dictatorships and the even larger military powers and superpowers, through to demagoguery, fundamentalist religion (on all sides), internecine warfare (Darfur, the Caucasus, and scores of others).

Non-violence is a pretty hefty weapon against that, all right. Yup. But non-violence, again, is not passivity. It's up to Sullivan and Campbell to open their yaps about human rights, or at least themselves to quickly condemn the beatings - for which there should be a priority investigation (which of course there won't be).

But what to do? Neither Mayor nor Premier can risk offending China's trade delegations or visiting dignitaries, nor can anyone else. Such power is what empire is all about - the ability to get your way internationally. The difference is in actually tolerating or remaining silent on beatings of peaceful protestors by anyone. That there's a political context to violence against this group should hopefully trigger security agencies to investigate. This isn't to say outright that China did it, but it behooves the Canadian system to investigate this more thoroughly and at least catch the culprits.

What response they can make directly to China is nearly impossible to formulate, because they just can't. But what they can do is denounce the beatings and back an investigation.

Actually Skookum, I'm all in favour of continued aggressive trade with China and its decoupling with human rights.

They are two separate issues in my opinion, though I'm sure that many, many people disagree with this position. Linkage between the two obfuscates two very different endeavours.

China's economic development is driving greater openness in its society and politics as it shifts from a command-and-control economy to a more market-based one(albeit still in the early stages). It is self-evident that there has been greater personal and social freedoms in China than, let's say 30+ years ago when Deng Xiaoping blessed capitalism. Mere coincidence?

Now if you feel that the pace of democratization has been slower than it should be, fine - that's a valid argument. But then, is the efficacy of linking of trade to a more aggressive human rights timetable valid? I don't think so.

Here's an example: one of the single-greatest democratizing forces in China in recent years has been the widespread adoption of the internet. Irrespective of the cases where Yahoo and Google gave-up data about specific users to the Chinese authorities, the net result of the sale of servers, software, optical fibre and PC's to China by the likes of Cisco, Microsoft and HP, has been "democratizing". Blogs sprouting anti-government positions, subversive emails, etc are mushrooming so quickly that the government is unable to stop it. They cannot do so without shutting-off a major industrial engine.

Without being too cute, I like to think of Democracy as a particularly nasty virus - eventually infecting most peoples who come into contact with it - and most of the infected eventually succumb. It piggy-backs on increased trade between regimes who carry the bug and those who don't. Shutting down the primary vectors, eg. commerce, prohibits its spread.

I do agree with your last statement that the beating needs to be investigated and prosecuted to its fullest conclusion.

For Chinese thugs to attack a member of the Falun Gong on Canadian soil is a bit much. This is isn't China after all. To shed some light on these activities, check the following report that illustrates similar incidents:

WOIPF 2004 Chinese Officials’s Activities on Canadian Soil A.7 http://www.upholdjustice.org/English.2/InterferenceInCanada.htm

On the issue of organ harvesting. To me knowledge only a handful of people do not agree with the conclusions of Kilgour-Matas preliminary investigative report on organ harvesting targeting the Falun Gong. Of course the regime doesn't either and have criticized the report same as Bobby Fletcher who has done so on all the blogs. http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-10/44796.html

So far the regime has not provided any answers for the unexplained 41,500 transplants. Since the persecution started, it is said that hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners have disappeared in China and it’s not hard to imagine that they would have become unwilling organ donors. The CCP has a special hatred for them and vilify them every chance they get. http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-18/24972.html

Indeed the persecution has been well documented since 1999. This is a report from the SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON TORTURE which highlights challenges at the end of his visit to China (Beijing, 2 December 2005)
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/677C1943FAA14D67C12570CB0034966D?opendocument

I read the Kilgour-Matas report where they examined 18 pieces of evidence and I find their conclusions that organ harvesting targeting the Falun Gong are very credible. Apparently the witnesses refused to meet with Harry Wu but have met with Ethan Gutmann, Jay Nordlinger and Bill Gertz and possibly others.

Bobby, here's a report about Harry Wu's fruitless investigation. From what I can gather his report is being used as a foundation to discredit the Kilgour-Matas report--but it's like apples and oranges. There is a huge gap.
http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452

Form your own opinion by reading the report: http://investigation.go.saveinter.net

Matas calls this practice a new form of evil on the planet. http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-17/45032.html BTW Matas has a pile of phone bills to validate his claim. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=6a97d044-615a-496b-b7d6-e79e36636592

I really think that the Communist Party has too much influence in Vancoucer and this assault should be well investigated. All this effort to stifle their speech is not democratically correct. This protest site is on public property and can be used by any group oppressed by the wicked communist regime.

i agree with incredulous on the internet theory. engaging is better than isolating.

Torture of Falun Gong members in China?

No way, Jose!

Government elites in China come from a peaceful and harmonious history such as the Cultural Revolution and the People's Revolution before that (oh, and I guess 40 years of the civil war era of Ming Guo as well). How could one possibly imagine that they would violently persecute a small counter-revolutionary minority? That's just crazy. Off to re-eduction camp for you at the laogai!

Guerilla combat, self-criticism sessions and the systematic killing of teachers and parents by students and children are just passe notions of the 70s, man! Get with it! This is the new cool, hip China open for business! The only killing we make now, is on the stock market.

Sure we got a prison labour system (laogai) that would be the envy of any psychopathic capitalist. And maybe we don't pay our some of our construction workers - but they just jump off the buildings they construct anyhow. Problem solves itself.

But our system makes your everyday products, and you support our system by buying these products, investing in factories over here and tolerating your snake-head neighbour in Vancouver who owns them.

I've overheard progressive-minded people here in BC say that what is happening in China now is similar to what happened when Canada was developing. One guy was a caring doctor. He said that in the past he liked to think that he engineered on farmers. Another was a housing developer and he said Canada had housing problems when farmers moved to the cities as well, just like China!

So what if when you move to another city you are denied schooling and medical care. So what if there is no rule of law? The point is they are all a bunch of dumb farmers who aren't worth a tinker's damn. See, we psychopathic capitalists are all alike.

Forget "workers of the world unite."

同心 - 心理变态团结

With one heart - psychopaths unite

And hey, if you think Chinese corporations are just psychopathic fiefdoms like those of your country before union and labour rights were won, you oughta just do us all a favour and kill yourself. More efficient that way since we don't have to deal with collecting the executioner's bullet fee (å*å¼¹è´¹).

You may say it is a "dog eat dog world", but we say it is a "person eat person world." 世界是人吃人世界. But, I think your Prime Minister and our President can agree to see eye to eye on Falun Gong: consume their organs for a successful tomorrow! Just like eating Irish children to solve the hunger pangs in Britain!

Yay Embassy but you forgot to take his kidneys!

Why does Canada continue to send money to China? They have money and the means to feed their people. They are a totalitarian, patriarchal regime, I protest the support of this country.

Earth to Asher?? are you there?

Take off the pink shades for a minute and read this enlightening report from the UN. What you're talking about is science-fiction--2/3 of China's populace are poor peasants who are constantly mistreated including all rights defenders, religious believers, Uighurs and Tibetans that are tortured, jailed and the Falun Gong are butchered.

Report from the SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON TORTURE which highlights challenges at the end of his visit to China (Beijing, 2 December 2005)
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huric...6D?opendocument

"The Special Rapporteur recalls that over the last several years his predecessors have received a significant number of serious allegations related to torture and other forms of ill-treatment in China, which have been submitted to the Government for its comments. These have included a consistent and systematic pattern of torture related to ethnic minorities, particularly Tibetans and Uighurs, political dissidents, human rights defenders, practitioners of Falun Gong, and members of house-church groups. These allegations have been and continue to be documented by international human rights organizations.

The methods of torture alleged include, among others: beatings; use of electric shock batons; cigarette burns; hooding/blindfolding; guard-instructed or permitted beatings by fellow prisoners; use of handcuffs or ankle fetters for extended periods (including in solitary confinement or secure holding areas), submersion in pits of water or sewage; exposure to conditions of extreme heat or cold, being forced to maintain uncomfortable positions, such as sitting, squatting, lying down, or standing for long periods of time, sometimes with objects held under arms; deprivation of sleep, food or water; prolonged solitary confinement; denial of medical treatment and medication; hard labour; and suspension from overhead fixtures from handcuffs. In several cases, the techniques employed have been given particular terminologies, such as the "tiger bench", where one is forced to sit motionless on a tiny stool a few centimetres off the ground; "reversing an airplane", where one is forced to bend over while holding legs straight, feet close together and arms lifted high; or "exhausting an eagle", where one is forced to stand on a tall stool and subjected to beatings until exhaustion. On the basis of the information he received during his mission, the Special Rapporteur confirms that many of these methods of torture have been used in China. "

As the new Olympic slogan goes; One World one dream...but don't forget to wake up to the reality before the red dragon gets you.

Why reward China's dictators with the Olympics--their human rights record is getting worse by the minute. We cannot change them but they are changing us, at least it sure looks that way in Vancouver.

Uh Asher,

Sorry, but I can't quite follow your rant. . . what exactly is your position? It seems like you're attempting some form of satire - your allusion to Jonathon Swift tipped me off, I think - though, Swift wrote that it was a Scottish friend(not Irish) who told him about the tastiness of human baby flesh.

I assume that you're Chinese - or a poseur - given your extensive use of Chinese. Here's your problem if you are Chinese: you think that China's past atrocities are unique or somehow far more horrific than the situation confronting other nations and cultures.

Yes, the Cultural Revolution was awful, yes, the harvesting of organs from FLG members is monstrous (if true), and who is not horrified at the regular and constant barbariousness of the ruling Chinese regime. But you need to look outside of your own country and compare it with other atrocities that have happened recently - or are still happening in other countries. The Chinese government's repression of dissidents and its treatment of its citizens is bad - but you remember an organization called the Khymer Rouge? Now THAT was a repressive regime - killed almost third of their entire population - some for just wearing glasses. How about the Taliban? Stoning women who deign to drive cars, or killing teachers who dare to instruct girls. Death squads in El Salvador, Pinoche's systematic terror campaigns, Bosnia, Aceh, etc. And that's only in the last 30 years or so - and I've surely missed a lot. . .

Look Asher - governments oppressing their own peoples is not unique to China and our commcerce with them is not without some measure of culpability. But it is far more effective strategy than commercial disengagment, sanctions, isolation and sanctions. Look at North Korea - wow, cutting them off from the rest of the world sure worked liked a charm. . .

Hi Everyone!

I have been reading all these comments with great interest. Isn't it great to live in a country where we can have such dialogue without fear that someone may come crashing through the door (courtesy of Nortel technology sold to China) because we are daring to use the word 'Falun Gong.'

BTW, I am a Vancouver Falun Gong practitioner... so please feel free to ask me any questions. I do know that Raymond phoned at 3:10 a.m. and the police didn't come... an ambulance did but apparently the police only arrived after Raymond's shift was over at 6:00 a.m. Unusual as the police usually keep a good eye on us.

And I know the woman whose eye was damaged from forced feeding... and the picture you saw was a re-enactment of her torture. She agreed to act it out again, in order to try to get help for those still going through the same things in China. I think this post was from Ogagator... we have more than enough proof that there is a full-scale brutal persecution against the Falun Gong in China. We have fully documented almost 3,000 (2,932) but this number is just the tip of the ice-burg.
We have also have 3rd party documentation from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the UN. And of course now there is the 3rd party investigation by David Kilgour, former crown prosecutor, MP, and Secretary of State for the Asia Pacific - see link in original article.

BTW Hi to Bobby Fletcher/Charles Liu who work full-time on all blogs related to Falun Gong doing his or their best to confuse and confound western readers regarding issues related to Falun Gong.

Also - here is a great article on Falun Gong from the magazine 'China Scope'

http://www.chinascope.org/jul05/feature_1.pdf

Great Discussion. Thanks Everyone.
Lian

Makina, good question - but LOTS of historical precedents: (Dictator-led(Hitler) Berlin in 1936, Dictator-led Mexico City(Ordaz) in 1968, Dicator-led Moscow(Breznhev) in 1980, Dictator-led Seoul in 1988(Chun-Doo Hwan) - so Dictator-led Beijing in 2008 seems prefectly in order. . .

Now look back at these countries just listed and see how many now are actually functioning democracies.

I immigrated from China 5 years ago. When I first came to Vancouver, I was really surprised to see that Falun Gong can freely protest in front the Chinese embassy. Then I started to learn the real story of Falun Gong, not like I was told in China. Free expression could bring people the truth, especially for the people from mainland China.

I hope you’re right Incredulous, but what really annoys me is that Beijing has vowed to eradicate Falun Gong before the 2008 Games.
http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/01/communist-chinas-610-preparing-to.html

Here are a few more things that annoy me…

“The groups, the Committee for Investigation on Persecution of Religion in China and the Free China Movement, released what they said was a report from authorities in Jilin province calling for a crackdown on all dissident groups, particularly the banned Falungong spiritual movement, "in order to host a better and successful Olympics in 2008." The report called for organisers of demonstrations to be swiftly arrested and "punished severely", sanctions of up to three years in custody and fines of 10,000 yuan (1,200 dollars) for offenders and for Falun Gong activists to be particularly harshly dealt with.
The appeal to the IOC follows recent hints from Rogge that China's human rights abuses could yet result in it being stripped of the Games. "We are convinced that the Olympic Games will improve human rights in China," Rogge told the BBC. "However the IOC is a responsible organisation and if either security, logistics or human rights are not acted upon to our satisfaction then we will act." IOC officials have since played down the comments, denying that they amounted to a warning to China. “
http://www.falunau.org/newsletter/issue2.htm#article3

History has taught us that Beijing and most dictators use international events as a license to kill—look at Berlin:

"That the success of the eleventh Olympiad gave Hitler an enormous boost, both moral and political, nobody could deny." The journalist William Shirer recorded in 1984, "Hitler, we who covered the Games had to concede, turned the Olympics into a dazzling propaganda success for his barbarian regime."
http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/flashback-nordlinger041001.shtml

China experts all fear the worst,which has already started to happen, during this period of warm ups before the Games…

It is my sincere hope that the free world will recognize sooner or later the urgency of the matter and that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is using the Olymics as a tool to justify its crackdown on Falun Gong and all other forms of persecution occurring in China today. The crackdown on rights lawyers and activists http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5323238.stm intensified a couple of weeks ago, journalists are not even free to report on natural disasters, and let’s not forget the 800 missiles pointed at Taiwan just waiting for an accident to happen. Where is the dignity I ask you-the Olympic spirit was already tarnished seven years ago with the persecution of Falun Gong. For all these reasons and many more, I think that rewarding dictators with Olympics is for the birds.

Gee Lian, where's your Truth?

- I only spend my spare time on this story here and there. If you have proof otherwise let's see if. If you can't back up what you say, then I must insist you have no Truth.

- Everything I cited are publically verifiable information. US government report, Chinese dissident investigation, pathology review of photos. If you have any question feel free to email me. My blog profile is open to public.

Your "full time" accusation is without Truth; such ad-hominen attack when you have no answer for the facts cited is not Benevolent; your worldly attachment to political sabotage is not Forebearance.

So what happened to your "Truth Benevolence Forebearance"? Matters not to me, but you people have to answer to yourselves.

who are confusing people here? i'm confused....

Ogagator - I get it now. . . Bobby Fletcher is the "handle" of Charles Liu of Seattle, WA(if that IS his real name) - who I guess regularly monitors blogs related to FLG and tries to discredit them. This is what Lian was refering to earlier.

This is GREAT!!! I love it that there's an actual agent of the PRC government monitoring blogs for FLG posts.

Hey "Bobby Fletcher" - you'd better find a new handle 'cause you've been outed. Also, it's a lot easier to be crafty if you do NOT cut and paste the exact same letter in a variety of blogs. . . tsk, tsk, tsk. Now that's just lazy - check-out the same letter posted to these blogs:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00251.htm

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17102459&BRD=1459&PAG=461&dept_id=155725&rfi=6

But the cooler thread can be found on this link - where both Bobby Fletcher AND Charles Liu post different comments in seeming agreement with each other. Heh - it's eerie. Even eerier is that Makina also posts. . . cue the Twilight Zone theme.

It's as if we've stumbled into a parallel universe where the forces of Falun Gong wage shadowy blogwar against the covert agents of the PRC government. . .it's out Tyee, but it's their war.

from Skookum 1:

no, the LEGAL SYSTEM.

evidence is needed, identification is needed.

just like the man whom was beaten with a golf club in broad daylight, this peaceful protestor could not identify his attacker(s).

the security or investigator would not be visible to the potential attackers.

the investigator would collect the evidence needed to prove the attack, to identify the attacker(s) and bring them to justice.

given the other comments here that show doubt about the nature of the attacks against the FLG members such a videotape of the attack and ID of the attackers would be emotional and legal gold.

that is the system I am talking about.

it is something that the VPD cannot do, but the FLG group could do all on their own.

Skookum1, has already pointed out that the FLG must take other actions:

so the FLG has the choice, here in Canada, sit and be passive and get beaten in the dark; or hire a PI and have him film the attack(s) and ID the attacker(s). So that our JUSTICE SYSTEM can have something to take action with.

Hey Bobby Fletcher/Charles Liu,

Why do you hate the FLG so much? Have they wronged you in any way? What's your beef - I'm interested to know. Or, is that simple that the PRC govenment pays you well for your postings?

Hey Makina/Skookum/Lian,

How is the FLG campaign to cause mis-information and curry support amongst Westerners working? Any progress to report on? Has the FLG thought about allying itself with other persecuted religious organizations to fight purported Chinese goverment oppression?

I love that the FLG has organized a coordinated media manipulation campaign in a rather sophisticated manner to further its own ends - kudos!

Gee, what was wrong with the Khmer Rouge? I mean, weren't they backed by the all harmonious and peaceful government of China? :)

People who wear glasses deserve what they get, boyyo.

And what is wrong with the Canadian government? I mean, didn't Minister David Anderson grow up in Shanghai in the international settlement? Anyone who grew up alongside the Green Gang and Big Ear Tu can't be bad. So what if he acted as the Godfather in the Basi Boy scandal. Can't we just forget all about that and pretend it never happened?

I mean hey, you commit a crime in Shanghai then seek shelter in the French Concession. That's just being smart. And maybe you want to bust up commies in Shanghai who threaten your British corporate interests, you hire the Green Gang. That's just how it worked in the 1940s - and even today.

Today, you got old retired government eiltes in Dalian who need kidneys, so you harvest one from a Falun Gong prisoner down the road in Shengyang - that's just being practical.

At one time or another these were all modest proposals just like eating children but hey have you ever heard of baby soup in Guangxi? Ah sure, its just human baby placenta and umbilical chord, but it is good for the health.

And you gotta be some kind of traitor if you think there are any traces of cannibalistic culture in China. It's all Han, man! There ain't no Hmong or Wu or Tibetans. We are just all the same.

But I used to know a Tibetan family that drank from human skulls. :)

Incredulous, this is the latest about a flood of hate propaganda material to hit the cities of Vancouver and Richmond.

http://ahdu88.blogspot.com/2006/08/anti-falun-gong-communist-propaganda.html

As far as I know there is great sympathy and support on the part of the Free Tibet members,the Christians, and the Taiwainese, etc.

And Murdock, about hiring a private eye, although it would solve the problem, I don't know who could afford this service.

On the other hand, the consulate has cameras all around the property but the cops have mentioned, from their past experience, that it's useless asking for the footage as there tends to be a blank spot where the 'proof of the assault' is supposed to be. That is telling.

Yes increduluous,

And those nasty things called unions and union rights. Yuck, I hate those. Let's just forget about them. A worker is just an object. Like a tool. You use it up then throw it away and get a new one.

Tools don't have rights. Why should workers?

I see some stupid even think that women workers should have rights. Make me laugh!!! 鸡女权利！哈哈哈！

http://www.cwwn.org/eng/main.html

Asher, I knew this stuff happened before in China during the great famine...

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

The article below has helped me put things into perspective as far as organ harvesting is concerned.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-17/45032.html

The Party's culture is diabolical!

Sorry about the dead link.

About the great famine, and China's history of killing...

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

bobby fletcher wrote...

Ya, gee don't you know how hard China is trying to write meaningless laws that are never enforced?

I mean who cares if a farmer's land in Zhongshan is expropriated to build the highway from Macau to Guangzhou and he is never paid for it? At least there is a law that says he should be!!!

Thanks. People like bobby actually serve as perfect foils.

You don't need stories from the Epoch Times to back that up cannibalsim either. Just go to chat.yahoo.com and find someone from Guangdong Province. They'll tell you about people in neighboring Guangxi Province eating children.

Of course, it is not shocking to us to think that headhunters in the South Pacific eat humans, but that Chinese do?

However, the name for muscle in Chinese is just meat "肉" (rou). So if you have a muscle attach, you actually say you have a "meat ache" 肉痛 (rou tong).

Apparently human flesh is very similar to pork, so it is common for some cannibalistic societies (read Paul Theroux's The Happy Isles of Oceania) to refer to human flesh as "long pork".

And according to Theroux, Spam has a similar consistency to human flesh. That kind of explains to me why Spam is so popular in Southern China.

sorry, that should read as "muscle ache"

Asher,

I don't quite catch your drift - from your post it sounds like cannablism is widespread. . . which prompts me to ask, pardon the cliche but I can't help myself, what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Now THAT'S cool asher. . .except for the whole CJD/Kuru/Mad-Cow thing - wonder how much champagne the average human noggin holds. I hear that's how the Dalai Lama enjoys his Kris' after a rockin' show with his ho's up in da VIP backstage at the afterparty. Holla!

Big deal - I know a guy who has human skulls in his apartment adorned like Monkey God artifacts from Tibet. Those crazy Tibetans. . .

Oh Asher - forgot to mention one thing. . . ummm, Soylent Green? It's made of people, IT'S MADE OF PEOPLE - AAARRRGHHH!!!

Yes, Chinese shopping markets are making way for Soylent Green (new directive from the Family Planning Committee 计划生育委员会). Now comes in constrcution worker flavour to celebrate the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Incredulous wrote:
I love that the FLG has organized a coordinated media manipulation campaign in a rather sophisticated manner to further its own ends - kudos!

I am not sure what you mean by 'furthering our own ends' As far as I am concerned achieving our 'own ends' is ending the persecution and organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners.

Lian

It wasn't just during the famine that cannibalism went on in China. In fact, the Party promoted it during the Cultural Revolution. According to part 7 of the Nine Commnetaries on the Communist Party, (http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html) it started on a small scale in Guanxi and then spread. In the end, there were massive "cannibal orgies:"

"For example when cutting open a living person, the killers only needed to cut a cross on the victim's belly, step on his body (if the victim was tied to a tree, the killers would bump his lower abdomen with the knee) and the heart and other organs would just fall out. The head killer was entitled to the heart, liver and genitals while others would take what was left. These grand yet dreadful scenes were adorned with flying flags and slogans."

And good old Pol Pot, who apparently revered Mao, must have taken it all in when he visited China, because after he returned to Cambodia cannibalism became rampant there for a while too. They even devised a drill with a sucking device to get the brains out of people's skulls so that they could eat them, and if I remember correctly, this was done while the victims were still alive.

So these are some of the most heinous acts the communists have perpetrated on their own people. Could it get more demented? I think harvesting organs from Falun Gong practitioners while they're still alive is on a par in it's evilness to the cannibalism they promoted in the past--except this time they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Asher, you forgot to mention that China is a democracy, nobody was killed in TAM, Tibetans are happy about the Chinese invasion and that Falun Gong are thankful to the CCP for taking their organs.

How the hell did the thread devolve into a catalogue of cannabalism in China from an FLG member being-up?

This is typical of the sensationalistic campaign of misinformation propogated by the FLG to try and curry sympathy.

Stick to your message FLG - if you want to stop organ harvesting, then stop talking about cannabilism. People generally are sympathetic to the thesis that the PRC government can oppress you - why be so sensational? Do you plan to start a tabloid?

The Chinese saying, "It is a people eat people world" is not meant to be sensationalist. It is just how Chinese society works.

Organ harvesting of Falun Gong (and probably also dissident Uighurs, Tibetans, Hmong, Wu, Koreans, Hakka, Manchurians etc...) by the government in China is just systematization of that behaviour.

Canadians also say "It is a dog eat dog world" but does the Canadian government systematically harvest organs from political prisoners? Not like China, but BC and Alberta governments did forcibly sterilize First Nations people until 1971. They did it in the name of eugenics - to prevent "morons" from producing more "moron" children.

Unfortunately, Rafe Mair was still given birth to.

Incredulous, these facts about the Chinese Communist Party are sensational all right. They're also true. It seems to me that if people know what the dictatorship in Beijing is capable of (there's a lot of misinformed souls out there who think China should be the next leader of the free world), there's a better chance of getting something done about the persecution of Falun Gong. That alone would bring an end to the organ harvesting, and it just might follow that the persecution of Christians, Uighers, political dissidents, journalists etc. etc. would be ended as well.

I agree and I think it’s good to keep in mind what the Communist regime has done in the past, especially if your group has been targeted for elimination because they have a pattern. Actually, there is a fear in China about their past history coming out and this is why the 30th anniversary Mao’s death was not celebrated this year.

There is even more fear on the part of the dictators about the Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party which reveals the uncensored history of the CCP’s reign during the last 56 years. http://ninecommentaries.com China experts have qualified the persecution of Falun Gong http:// faluninfo.net as a mere extension of the Cultural Revolution.

The dictators in China have been on a killing spree that has gone unchecked for over 50 years...I think it's long overdue for the free world to take notice and weigh the consequences.

The US and Canadian governments could help by supporting the move towards free trade unions as they did in Poland during the days of Solidarite Movement; instead of supporting the "all-beneficent" Chinese government and corporations that suppress unions.

Your Hong Kongese, Taiwanese or Fujianese neighbour could start tomorrow by allowing a union to form at his factory in Shenzhen.

This EU resolution on EU-China Relations is one step in the right direction.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2006-0346+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

It's not surprising that China had nothing good to say about it and still maintain that their human rights records are great while sharpening the butcher knives in the backroom.

He objected to the EU's practice of linking "economic and trade issues with the so-called human rights issues. China attaches great importance to the issue of human rights and we identified human rights as the basic rights of the Chinese people."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/09/europe/EU_GEN_EU_China.php

A better bet might be to use the Olympics as leverage. If all western countries threaten to boycott the Games unless the persecution is called off and all Falun Gong practitioners freed, or if the Olympic Committee threatens to move them to a more deserving country than China, we might see some rapid action. Because, apart from power, there's nothing those dictators in Beijing crave more than to be a legitimate in the eyes of the world, and bidding for the Olympics was to further that end. They're opening Confucius Institutes in many cities now, including one in Vancouver. It's not that the regime gives a damn about confucius' teachings, they just want to look like good guys overseas.

and unicorns might prance out of my arse playing ukeleles. . . kumbaya my lord, kumbaya. . .

While I’m hoping that China won’t use the new EU-China Resolution as toilet paper, I came across this piece that reaffirms my doubts…

plus the fact that China has come up with new gag orders during the EU-Asia Summit is certainly telling...

The new measures, which took effect as soon as they were issued, are aimed at "regulating...in a sound and orderly manner" the news and information that foreign agencies broadcast in China as well as access to it by Chinese subscribers, Xinhua said.

News that "endanger(s) China's national security, reputation and interests" as well as any information that "disrupt(s) China's economic and social order, or undermine(s) China's social stability" are forbidden.

The limitations are to apply even in the former British colony of Hong Kong and the former Portuguese enclave of Macao, Xinhua said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=112845

China is incorrigible, to go as far as including Hong Kong and Macau in that new rule on media--just because it wants to look good on Olympics day!!!

And this paper is not even five days old and already they're going against it...
European Parliament resolution (2005/2161(INI))
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P6-TA-2006-0346+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

So what do you think about China's rule of law? The guy replies: It's a great idea--they should try it sometime!

This was the point I was trying to make...

Surely Reporters without borders, human rights activists and all freedom defenders will disapprove of this gag order...

China is their own worst enemy. If they lose the Games, it will be their own fault because of bad conduct...refer to the EU resolution for more on the bad conduct part.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides.../EN&language=EN

I am glad to hear that there is vigils around the world at Chinese embassies by Falun Gong practitioners. Perhaps the Chinese governments reaction to this is a predictable as an Ego can be but.... Maybe they are worried that they will get some publicity but until this article I hadn't heard about it. So any media generating event like this as painful as it may be will do some good!

Maybe the Chinese Govt. is worried that all this meditating outside their embassies will raise the level of consciousness of the people inside and we wouldn't want that now would we..... 'cause they might start realizing the true nature of bull shit that they are being handed!

This is the coolest petition I know of from China Support Network calling for the relocation of the Olympics with cc to the UN.

Introduction:

Wouldn't it be ironic for the Olympic torch to promote not international brotherhood, but a cruel totalitarian regime that tortures dissidents and bombards its population with nationalist propaganda? That's exactly what will take place in 2008 if the world community stands by and lets it happen. Tell the International Olympics Committee that this is not acceptable by signing our petition to move the Games to a free city.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Petition against the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, China

Whereas Beijing, the capital of Communist China, is scheduled to be the host city for the 2008 Olympic Games,

Whereas previous Olympics have proven to be propaganda bonanzas for their dictatorial hosts, such as the Nazis in 1936 and the Soviets in 1980, rather than the universal celebration of peaceful competition and sport for people of all colors and creeds that is the Olympic ideal,

Whereas reports have revealed that the Olympics and the use of propaganda from them are an essential part of Communist China's preparation for an invasion of the island democracy of Taiwan by, at the latest, 2012,

Whereas these same reports have revealed said invasion will also be used as a pretext for a massive crackdown on dissident similar to the Cultural Revolution, as well as the mass seizure of all "private property," including bank accounts, of everyone still inside Communist China by that time,

We, the undersigned, resolve to do the following:

- Urge the International Olympic Committee to prevent the use of international sport to advance war and repression by moving the 2008 Olympics from Beijing to an alternate city outside Communist China's control,

- Urge all democratic nations of the world, in the event that the 2008 Games are not moved as stated in the above paragraph, to refuse to take part in this shameful Communist propaganda exercise and boycott the Games, and

- Recommend that all nations that do engage in such a boycott convene an alternate series of "Freedom Games" to encourage international competition in a peaceful environment free of the prospect of unjust war and the reality of repression.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

Notes:

This petition will be delivered to the International Olympics Committee and to governments.
http://www.chinasupport.net/devx/signpetitions.php

Thanks for all the links Makina!!!

And Gandhi was in part refering to the British Empire in that quote. British colonists continue to live on in British Columbia and promote corporate capitalism in China. Hopefully, one day my school system won't so readily reward psychopaths, and my neighbors who think and act as colonists just won't be so numerous.

Here's a quote from Monty Python's Meaning of Life on keeping China British.

And Victoria still celebrates Canada Day by shooting off a canon that came from a gunship that shelled the shores of the Yangtze River.

Gee Murphy, you have again posted all the Falun Gong's 2008 Olympic boycott "spin" without telling people you are an agent/employee of Falun Gong's "propaganda department", Epoch Times.

And people are accusing me of being a spy? For citing publically verifiable information found on Google?

Incredulous and Asher, the accusations that I'm on the take, or being a spy are false. If anyone has proof let's see it.

Otherwise I must insist such ad-homenin attack is not Truthful, not Benevolent, lacks Forebearance.

Beware of the slippery slope of false practitioning and evil cultivation. Remember it is Falun Gong disciple who must answer to themselves on this, not us regular people.

[for those who don't know, this is FLG's wheel-of-law speak.]

Okay Bobby - then let me ask you a few questions and see if you have the balls to answer truthfully:

1. Do you also post under the name "Charles Liu"?

2. Why are so anti-FLG? Your posts seem meticulously researched and time must have been spent on assembling these links - why? Can't just be a passing hobby. What's your story Bobby/Charles?

3. Why have I found your exact same posts on different blogs/sites? Are you just lazy?

Don't worry - we all know Makina, Lian, et al. are all FLG members - but at least they don't hide it. I don't mind being manipulated as long as I know I'm being manipulated, but you're just being sloppy Bobby. What's your story, dude?

Incredulous, I'm laughing now. But you never know, some heavy international pressure over the Olympics might produce results. If nothing else,
at least it would put the CCP's diabolical deeds in the spotlight around the world, and who knows what that would in turn bring about.

There's an old Chinese saying: you never know what's going to fly out of the tree until you throw a rock into it.

Asher wrote:

Apparently this seed is being planted wherever Kilgour, co-author of the report on organ harvesting targeting Falun Gong, goes to present his report, I hope it will work too. Get them where it hurts--the pocket book.

Murphy wrote:

I also think the Chinese Communist Party Schools have a hidden agenda. Since when is the Party (CCP) doing something solely to benefit the people??? What's going on in Shanghai is certainly tied in with what's going on over here too. Waterloo and Toronto will open communist schools next year too. And the target is 500--they even opened one in Rwanda--what's could they be after in Rwanda?

Bobby, I can always depend on you to slander the Epoch Times. You just love to hate this paper, as all the commies do, because it reports on persecutions and crisis in China that otherwise might only get reported on blogs. If you hate it, then it means it's a good paper. It certainly keeps China watchers and Falun Gong defenders happy!

About the Chicoms and their soft power strategy, it's worth noting that Mussolini began a similar campaign in his days.

How about giving the students a field day and get them to study he Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party http://ninecommentaries.com instead of feeding them that instant garbage--'so-called Chinese history!

Whats all this crap about anyway ? People get thumped every day in downtown Vancouver.
Lets all get together, go to Bejing or where ever, and build a little shack along with a huge bill board on a busy street and protest something for a year or two.....

I wasn't going to dignify Bobby's accusations with a response, but his devious tactics should be exposed. I've said clearly and freely on other blogs that I'm a practitioner and also that I work for the Epoch Times. I have nothing at all to hide, but he continues to imply that I do. He tries to make out, here and on other blogs, that there's something secretive and dishonest going on, and uses words like "agent" and "operative" trying to imply that I'm a spy. Maybe, in some kind of Freudian slip, he's talking about himself? Or maybe it's a tactic he learned in propaganda school.

To you, Bobby, I'll say that I'm looking forward to hearing your answers to the fair questions Incredulous posed -- unless you chicken out the way you did on the Bartlett blog.

Dear Incredulous:

"Incredulous and Asher, the accusations that I'm on the take, or being a spy are false. If anyone has proof let's see it."

- I assume you have no proof.

"1. Do you also post under the name "Charles Liu"?"

- Yes, as that is my real name. "bobby fletcher" with lower case b/f is my blog handle (use of handle/nickname is a common convention). My blog profile is open to public, and I answer all my email with my real identity.

You only have to send an email to find out.

"2. Why are so anti-FLG? Your posts seem meticulously researched and time must have been spent on assembling these links - why? Can't just be a passing hobby. What's your story Bobby/Charles?"

- I' only offering the facts I found from Google. Everything I cited is publically verifiable information. I decided to do this after being confronted by a flyer in Chinatown one day, and decided to out this false allegation after finding so many problems with it.

Falun Gong pissed off the wrong techie in Seattle, that's it. This is the truth, believe it or not is up to you.

"3. Why have I found your exact same posts on different blogs/sites? Are you just lazy?"

- Yes, this is just a hobby I spend couple hours a day on. I past my canned research results only on blogs that're on-topic. I also send them to Op-Ed when the subject is relevant.

"Don't worry - we all know Makina, Lian, et al. are all FLG members - but at least they don't hide it. I don't mind being manipulated as long as I know I'm being manipulated, but you're just being sloppy Bobby. What's your story, dude?"

- I am just a private citizen. I am a 39 year old technology working in Seattle. No one pays me to do this, nor am I doing this at anyone's direction.

I simply got fed up with this, and decided to do something about it - on my own.

If you are in Seattle, let me know I'll meet you. If you send me an email, I'll let you know the next time I'm in Vancouver. I go to Richmond a lot because they have good food.

That's really it, believe it or not is up to you. I have nothing to hide; you only have send me an email to find out.

Now, again, since no one has provided proof of this accusation, including Murphy who works for Epoch Times, Falun Gong's propaganda department - I will insist that such personal attack is without Truth, Compassion, Forebearance.

Go ahead, every time Falun Gong disciples attack me, their De leaves their body and they are filled with evil Karma as they go down the slipper slope of evil cultivation.

Remember it is you who believe this, not us regular people.

Bobby, I don't think the practitioners are worried about themselves...they're too busy trying to stop a genocide in its track and exposing the evil persecution. But I do think they are worried about you though. On the contrary, regular people don't spend hours on the web apologizing for Beijing's genocidal campaigns unless there is something in it for them. There is pure hatred agains Falun Gong intertwined with your discourse on all the blogs and it is quite transparent. Similarly the special hatred on the part of the CCP drives them to persecute the Falun Gong in the most inhumane way possible. I don't see how anyone can benefit from siding with the evil.

Take a hard look at the long list of China's abominable human rights abuses--what do you say to that?

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides.../EN&language=EN

And it's worth posting #66 again because you surely missed it the first time.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides.../EN&language=EN

If you really cared for the Chinese people and Falun Gong you'd want to cooperate instead of denying that China/Beijing is red and immaculate.

Sorry for the busted link... (EU-China Resolution and HR violations)

66. Strongly condemns the detention and torture of Falun Gong practitioners in prisons, "Re-education through Labour" camps, psychiatric hospitals and "legal education schools"; is concerned about reports that organs of detained Falun Gong practitioners have been removed and sold to hospitals; urges the Chinese Government to end the detention and torture of Falun Gong practitioners and to release them immediately;

Hey Bobby Fletcher - okay, I'll take you at face-value for now. . . though your single-minded determination to discredit the FLG borders somewhat on the Obsessive-Compulsive INMHO. . . are you sure you didn't get your heart broken by a woman (or man) who spurned you for a life of Truth and Forbearance in the FLG? Come on, getting a flyer in Chinatown isn't enough . . . if this is hobby - might I suggest collecting stamps? Paint-Ball?

Sorry - bobby fletcher. I figured it out now - you and Makina used to have a thing, right?

But then she left you to become the mouthpiece of the FLG, falling under the Svengali-like sway of the charismatic but insidious Li Hongzhi.

It's all so clear to me now. It's okay brah, I got your back. Makina - come on, will you stop experimenting with this buddhist cult-thing and come-back home to Seattle and patch things up with Charles? You know Li Hongzhi is only using you for PR spin. . .

This gets more hilarious by the minute. But I think you've got it figured out, Incredulous. Bobby was dumped by a practitioner and now he's out for revenge. Hell hath no fury....

Now, again, since no one has provided proof of this accusation, including Murphy who works for Epoch Times, Falun Gong's propaganda department - I will insist that such personal attack is without Truth, Compassion, Forebearance.

Netscaper2 wrote:

This is a political attack by Chinese thugs, it's a bit different than what you're talking about, although I don't agree with either forms of assault.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-7-20/22225.html
http://www.faluninfo.net/hongkong/

I see that Makina chooses the high-road by not responding to my allegations of former romance with bobby fletcher, simply continuing in her diligent posting of links of FLG-friendly links. Unflappable. You gotta respect that - but it just reinforces my suspicion.

I can feel the tension over the ethernet. . . why don't you guys just kiss and make-up?

Incredulous,

I appreciate your sense of humour, but I hate to disappoint you...you're totally off the mark with your Monty Pytons assumptions. I know this situation seems complex because it is. I believe the transparent hate that we're seeing here on the part of Bobby (and the CCP) is not targetted at me but at Falun Gong as a whole. So it's worth clarifying the truth every step of the way to dissolve the hate propaganda and minimize the persecution--a persecution that is based on lies and hate.

– Excerpt from a July, 2000 article by CNN’s Senior China Analyst, Willy Wo-Lap Lam

http://www.faluninfo.net/specialreports/jiangspersonalcrusade

/

Ahh. . . finally she responds to the baseless allegations. Diligent to the last Makina. Well, as this threads winds-down permit me to say to all concerned that this was the funnest thread I've participated in, though I guess organ harvesting, cannabalism, buddhist cults and oppressive communist governments are hardly fun in real life.

Maybe I'll develop a hobby where I troll blogs for other postings by bobby(you know i love you, dude - but get a girlfriend and move out of your parents' basement!), Makina, Murphy, Lian, and the gang and follow you all around cyberspace adding joyous stupidity to your otherwise serious pursuits - but who has time? Stamp collecting calls. . .peace-out y'all!

Incredulous, you got it all wrong. Ya see, Bobby Flectcher works for one section of the Burson-Marsteller PR firm (Chinese Communist Party section) and Makina works in the Falun Gong section.

Their cubicles actually share a wall. So, technically Bobby Fletcher (Charles Liu) is correct. He in not a part of the Chinese Communist Party; he is in fact a worker at a public relations firm with the Party as a client. That's all.

But Makina is both a PR firm employee and a Falun Gong member. See?

Well, hey Wal-Mart has their hired PR firm bloggers. See The Consumerist website....

http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/walmart/walmart-is-mad-at-the-consumerist-203652.php

Asher wrote:

Hi Asher...one small correction. I speak out for the rights of Falun Gong from the heart--I'm not with any PR firm. I just happen to have a big mouth which comes in handy for depending such a cause!