Continued reliance on Victoria and legal-structures built by those who do not care about what happens to the environment, the future work possibilities (who cares when in 4 year the government may be gone?), or the availiability of resources 50 years from now will not solve this problem.

Stewardship is not part of their mindset, never has been and never will.

Local control and stewardship must be exerted and enforced for the situation to change.

The point of job loss is made, were the desired stewardship (200 vs. 80 years harvesting) then the job losses today would be immense, virtually wiping out wood anything on Vancouver Island. The future would have raw materials, but would there be any processing work? Hard to say.

There must be a balance point, but we will not find it by complaining to Victoria when no one is listening.

In a decade the American's will have us paying them to take the logs out of the woods...

What is the point in consulting with First Nations freebear? In my home town they signed off to logging their own watershed. First Nations have bills to pay, big bills.

The Wilderness Committee helped elect this government when they took over the Green Party.

ah yes. more law-breaking activity. maybe the professional protesters will enlist the help of the teachers.

The sleazebag emer$on in conjunction with gordo and the disgraceful provincial liberals are responsible for this.
Their whole mandate has always been to facilitate the RAPE of our natural resources, without regard to sustainability, without regard to local economies, the only guiding principle being the maximization of corporate profits.
These are the same people that wanted to cut down 1000 year old trees in Cathedral Grove to build a fcking parling lot!!!!
We must fight them at every turn.
The island is NDP territory so their push there is not only motivated by greed but by revenge. Kind of like the filthy republican party holding their last national convention in New York.
Bless the defenders of Cathedral Grove!!!!

p.s.- check out the report released this week about corporate donations to the provincial liberals and you connect the dots!
(maybe the tyee can do a story on where gordo and his hencemen are getting all their money from and what the corporations are getting in return!!)

I don't remember which Liberal minister it was, but he was quoted as saying something to the effect that activities such as ranching would replace lumbering in the interior... and now this.

If these guys are expecting to be raptured or something in the near future, I can only say "Oh Lord, take them unto thy bosom... as soon as possible..."

As much as i don't agree with what the logging companies and government are doing, this is a news story, not an opinion piece, and there is hardly a mention of any other viewpoints. It's your job to get both sides of the story, remember that.

Always grinding that axe, eh elliot?

So, Eliot, do you think we should export raw logs? Have you read about the incredible rates of logging related deaths and injuries in the last few years?

Why shouldn't people protest? And why drsg the teachers into it.

Jester - you still offended that there is no union for protesters? Or is it that everyone else is getting cake and you're getting none?

Would those "getting cake" include the families who have lost their loved ones thanks to reductions in forest safety to benefit the corporate bottom line? That's right, thanks emer$on and gordo, I hope your puppetmasters are happy with the extra profit!!

Actually, the puppetmasters leave me just about enough to be happy, I see they leave you just about enough to leave you in misery......

Jester jogger - you were asking what the big donors to the Campbell government were getting in return for their generosity? Good Government.!

Maxwell, define good government for me...

Would that be when your handout from the feds is bigger than your surplus?

Or perhaps when your income tax cut is paid for by raising other taxes which hit the poorer segments to a greater degree?

Or would that be when kids die and the gov't doesn't bother investigating why?

The Campbell Libs are bought and paid for by the corporate sector. Less than half the people voted for them and only a tiny fraction of that contributed to them financially. You'd think that if they were doing such a great job more people would vote for them or give them a few bucks for their campaign.

As for the article, since the workers who are upset don't seem to have the support of the Campbell supporters here perhaps they could claim that the rampant logging is destroying the seal pup population and this means they'll soon lose their 2 week a year job. Nothing gets support from the political right like a seal hunter after all.

NLN,

be careful, Hydro is going to start cracking down on your grow-ops...

That'll mean a loss of income for corrupt political parties too. Think of it is Reagan's "trickle-down" theory in reverse at work in BC.

Some of our clever neocons should perhaps mention that the sale of resources is the sale of capital in any and every business accounting system. Except in ideological economics, where everything goes on the GDP and nothing comes off in the form of depletion, waste and the costs of damage.

The GDP is a beautiful pacifier for our "business friendly" governments and ideologically brainwashed suckers who believe any crap thrown at them by special interests. The more we waste the higher the GDP, so let's live it up!

If I could have accounted everything I made and sold in my businesses as "income", I could have become very rich.

Unfortunately, I had to pay for restocking, replacements and couldn't account the costs of repairs, or the prices paid for my equipment as "income", as it is practiced in the GDP, so I reamined poor.

Then what was left, was stolen by a "good capitalist", with a fraudulent, but legal "business practice", who bought my business, but could not be bothered to pay for it.

The same is happening in our forests. They chop everything down, account it as an income, leave behind destruction and destitution, but by that time the investment has paid off and the corporations hope that a "business friendly" government in Russia will welcome them with open arms.

By the way, I do own some forest and do log, but not the way these multinational crooks do it. There's nothing wrong with logging, but with the way the multinational Mafia does it.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

It wil be intereting to see how ecosystem based forestry evolves on the coast-better logging practices I hope, as well as more local employment, at least more so than in the past.

I believe forestry can be done sustainably, which means logging less forest but getting the most out of a cubic meter. Less annual allowable cut will lead to, eventually, higher wood prices, hopefully justified and marketed as a sustainable product (and not in the sustained yield way of today and yesterday!).

Noleftnut, perhaps you might want to pass a small slice of that cake off onto sawmill workers in Barriere and other communities that have lost their prime income generators thanks to this provincial Liberal Government.

Yes, the government that axed parts of the Forests Act in 2003 that had forced the big tenured forest exploiters to at least process locally cut timber locally.

I haven't had a chance to read the report on donations to the Liberals as Jesterjogger mentioned above, but for some odd reason I deeply sense that Tolko Industries is on that list of appreciative donors.

Afterall, the benefit of being allowed to jettison more than 200 hourly paid, unionize workers is hardly pocket change, is it?

No doubt Maxwell, you'd get agreement on your good government claim from the likes of Tolko et/al, but the men and women who pay the taxes and buy the groceries in small town BC might call it something else.

Not to worry allan, the laid-off forestry workers are going to declare themselves to be seal hunters. The right will then be pounding their fists on the desks of parliament to demand we pay their mortgage and grocery bills the other 50 weeks of the year just to say screw you Suzuki.

We don't need forestry jobs when we have seals just laying there.

We are primarily talking about timber off private lands anyone should be able to dispose of their private assets as they see fit. The land owner’s social responsibility ends when their taxes are paid. Private lands should be managed to the owner’s objectives this is the best way to ensure sustainability of a renewable natural resource. We have over 15% of BC’s land base protected its now time to put 20 to 25% of the land base into intensive forest management the best way to do this is to privatise this land.

Can I build a nuclear reactor on my land and sell the power to Hydro without interference?

How about I just have a pile of car tires to set fire to?

Just because the land is private doesn't mean you're no longer part of the community.

I'm pretty sure those thousands of logging trucks are driving on public roads.

If the logging companies want to do whatever they like on private land then they can stop abusing public land the rest of the time.

yeah who wrote that anyhow, the loathsome rob mcdonald?
He's the sl!me-ball who BORROWED millions from some fckin' corporate bank in toronto to finance the purchase and subsequent clear-cut of pristine wildeness on a beatiful west coast Island. They made a documentary about it that occasionally gets shown on the knowledge network.
Anyhow he pocketed a cool couple of million, paid back big bank plus interest and left a scarred wasteland that had been a paradise on earth.
I actually saw him in person once. I could have walked right up and touched him if I wanted!!
I think he lives in a gaudy west van mansion and occasionally makes it in the malcolm perry "high society" page in the sun newspaper.
My f'n hero!!

With private ownership of the Forests you get the good with the bad there will always be fast buck operators. The beauty of Capitalisms is that it is Darwinism at its best selection of the smartest and fittest. This is why the French students would rather riot than work or compete with the immigrant classes, they seemed to think they are entitled to a BS arts degrees and a lifetime government job. Example is Sweden these the forests are privately owned and were the annual allowable cut is larger than BC’s on a smaller land base and a poorer climate (most of Sweden is north of 60).

To those folks monitoring all the logging trucks, whether loaded or empty, in addition all company pick up trucks, shop trucks etc ,if any of these trucks are operating on municipal roads they are then required by law to have a municipal licence affixed to that unit, these licences (stickers) are good for the current year only e.g. if a truck displays a 05 municipal license(sticker) than its expired and the owner can be fined for not displaying a current sticker, these stickers can be mounted on the upper part of the wind shield or side windows, also trucks do display other decals on their windows, but for other purposes, the municipal sticker states municipal on it, check out those trucks big or small, your selves or the law, also wouldn’t hurt to complain to your town councils after all it’s the towns roads these people are using and wearing out.
Following is small part of the municipal act.
Licence plate must be displayed
1. 668 Unless exempted under section 667 [exemptions from licensing requirements], a commercial vehicle must not be operated on a highway in a participating municipality unless there is displayed on the vehicle a valid and subsisting licence plate issued in accordance with this Division for the vehicle

Bullshit, which is why studies show psychopaths do so well as businessmen. Unless you think our best and brightest are psychos?

Capitalism is all about passing the buck on to external factors. Nobody has to pay the environment for what they do to it but we all suffer for it even if the rest of us had nothing to do with it.

One gets the sense this is the last frantic feeding frenzy before the North American housing bubble bursts, before America's stupendous debt load debt brings down the whole house of cards, before the market is flooded with crap wood, before oil goes over $100/barrel, and before the diseducated young finally wake up in rage at what has been stolen from them. Protests of the future probably won't be as pleasant and ineffective as this one, because folks will have nothing left to lose.

wiley
If you look around, for example at several things that have been posted on this website over the past week, I think there's a good bit of evidence for what you're saying.
You may be right, this may well be a critical time.

2,000 cubic meters to equal one job? Baloney. We operate a family-owned small-scale forestry company on 1,000 acres of Crown land, a Woodlot License, near the base of Mt. Washington. We take out about fifty to sixty truckloads annually in a series of single-tree thinnings and small patch cuts. Hand falling, and using small low-impact machines creates twice the employment. Most of our wood goes to Richmond Plywood, a worker-owned cooperative mill. We make decent money, the logs stay in BC.

Also, to note the predations of TimberWaste...in our local (Oyster River Division) area, they are harvesting at a rate three times the annual growth. This is where the word "sustainable" becomes irrelevant. TW says that on the whole Timber Harvesting Land Base of the company, the annual increment in so many thousand cubic meters, so they take that figure out of one watershed. Mathematically, it is sustainable--locally it is devastating. One benefit is that we know where our common boundaries are, we have the trees!

For more information on the wonderful, but neglected, provincial Woodlot License Program, see http://www.woodlot.bc.ca/

unkari
peoples republic of merville

I am looking at a picture of Rich Coleman and the man has 6 CHINS,the fat neocon slut has sold our forests down the river with his buddy Kampbell.

Business is good for him as he grows fat on the sales of our resources and jobs...seems they also have a plan to give the Yanks better prices on our lumber,SO THEY WILL BUY MORE.

IS KAMPBELL A GENIUS OR WHAT ?

CHECK HIS SPEECH IN KELOWNA...this last week.

you still here thomas/sleeps/deep?

Elliot ,sweetie ! how you doing in your little world.I see there are some new RIGHTIES on the site .

Or is that just you,under different handles,oh,you righties are so smart.

Since you are so smart Elliot ! How do you figure out the beer to bratwurst ratio at a BBQ
I seem to have to keep going back to either buy beer or sausages?

Any help einstien ?

Anybody who suggests that forestry on private land is better is nuts. Unless there is regulation of watershed impacts, the true costs of the logging will be passed on to the community. When will people realize that personal wealth, safety, and happines are only possible when there is a healthy community. The fact that 75% of Vancouvers valleys have been logged and up to 90% of prime valley bottom old-growth gone is an ecological disaster. Our generation will witness the last of the major old growth valleys destroyed. The collapse of the fishing industry and collapse of communities all over the island are a direct result of mis-management and corporate crime. As a supporter of the NDP, I must point out that the NDP has been just as responsible for this destruction as the Fiberals. It is imperative that communities are able to rally together and create an effective political alliance to put an end to this madness. Greens and social democrats alike must force a merger of the two parties and fire the leadership! I also know for a fact that a community forest stewardship resolution was tabled at a recent NDP convention. Not even debated, ignored... completely! This suggests a problem. Unfortunately, unless a strong grassroots movement to save our forests is forged within the ranks of the NDP, I believe it will be business as usual in OUR forests.

redgreen,
I thought unkari's post,above a few comments, was interesting though, did you see it?
Not to argue with your other points, of course!

G West,there are a few loggers on the Island that promote SUSTAINABLE LOGGING and it is as the poster unkari say's...if you do it right you can me a living,you aint getting rich soon,most work with horses and live a lifestyle of ethical proportions.

There is one logger around Errington/Nanaimo that is World Famous for his style.

And i think it is Mike Gogo that has a logging business that works on the sustainable
ethic...been away from there a couple of years

so take the info i give as not up to date.

thomas
Yep, I'd some recollection of it too. Just seemed unkari's was a good response to redgreen's point.

That kind of sustainable use of natural resources is the absolute rule in Sweden - but of course we couldn't learn anything from those crazy socialist Swedes - we'd much rather destroy the forests and then hire some huge Industrial combine to pave everything and set up a huge Walmart that stretches from one end of the Island to the other.

The truth, as Coyote might say, is out there!

One need only remember how beautiful Cathedral Grove was til they started cutting around it.

There are some real morons out there and that porcine Rich Coleman is at the front of the crowd.

Small wonder the Island is losing tourists...between the clear cutting and ferries bull$h!t , the only people getting fat are the Kampbell Klan.

G west
I am not an expert on the subject, but Sweden’s forestry industry is supposed to be based around “tree farms” that promote the growing of one species at the expense of all others. Sort of a tree version of a wheat field, although I readily admit getting this information 2nd hand.

I get to visits/ travel through cutblocks in the Interior and North. The quality of care is far better than what I saw 20 years ago. No garbage dumps, reclaimed roads, intact riparian areas, wildlife trees, etc. I knew the Forest Practice Code had a lot of problems, but it was responsible for creating a shift in workers attitudes for the better. It did however according to some people I talked to, favour the big business over the smaller ones. Trying to be a specialty mill that did value added products was discouraged. (even under the NDP)

As soon as I heard the new forest management plan, I knew there would be problems. Quite a few of the companies and consultants are decent folks, but the gypo’s that cut corners and break a few rules can always underbid them, knowing they are not likely to get caught by the decimated Forest Service. Plus anyone finding too many problems will likely have complaints made against them to the local MLA. These gypo’s will eventually drive all the other companies down to their level. This is unfortunate as losing the standards which we have ingrained in our forest workers will cost us big time in the long run.

Colin
No doubt the Swedes make mistakes too Colin; what ticks me off is the bright bulbs in this province who ignore the positive role that the Woodlot licensing program (as noted above in a couple of places) and other forms of less intensive logging could play. There are some good things being done in Clayoquot Sound area too. Gypos are nothing new in this province - the forest industry has been high grading since the turn of the 19th century. If the resource hadn't been so unbelievably rich in the first place they'd already have the province paved. I hope you noticed how much the forest and mining companies shelled out last year to help get professor campbell reelected.

Sustainability is pretty subjective. BC's timber cut has been based on sustainability since the 50's (remember Public Sustained Yields Units (PSYU)), At any rate every Timber Supply Area (TSA) must be reviewed every 5 years based on Modals that are more science based than climate change modals. Sweden doesn't hold a candle to BC as to the management for biodiversity. 94% of BC is under public management so there is a disconnect when you trump public management but complain about present forest management. The same forest management that has led to the present state of the forest (just look at the pine beetle infestation). If a major licensee (with deep pockets) damages your water supply you can sue him. Now that government owns everything you get a degraded ecosystem.

I disagree. If you look at BC's forest practices back to the 1890s we've got nothing to crow about...you are right that things improved somewhat after the 1960s but that hardly makes up for what had happened prior to that.

Sweden's forests differ, in terms of biodiversity, as much because of climate as anything else.
As for suing some of these gypo outfits - you must be joking!

A good article, but very depressing! :(
Short-sighted greed seems to be an endless cup!

I must say I was surprised by the following:

Work related death or injury is a topic that is talked about very little. The resource industries seem to be having more and more fatalities.
Am I correct?

Also, the environment is starting to show more signs of stress! I live in South Korea. In springtime we have the problem of "Yellow Dust" or "Yellow Sand". It is coming primarily from the Gobi Desert in China into both Koreas and southern Japan (yeah for desertification!).When I was visiting Seoul (this last weekend) for some hiking we had to cancel our hiking plans. Why? The Yellow Sand was so bad we could not see for more than 500 metres or 1km into the distance. Most people were wearing face masks and/or coughing when outside.

Well, I guess that at the end of the day some people will be happy! They made their millions!

Kevan Hudson
Suncheon, South Korea

i'll say this for you thomas/sleeps/deep; you sure do have sustainability.

Elliot,women have been telling me that all my life and i have to say,you are the first man to say that to me.

You are embarrassing me ! geez

Oh,well,playtimes over,gotta go to work ...bye,bye

G west
A quick Google brought up these sites on Swedish forest practices

http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/w1033e/w1033e05.htm

http://www.borealforest.org/world/world_sweden.htm

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr538.pdf

Only had time for a quick scan, but nevertheless very interesting

Colin:
Thanks for those. I was aware of the Saami and the work industry and government were undertaking to work with them in the northern most areas. I thought the comment about biodiversity (posted above) seemed wrong from my general understanding of the relative situation between here and Sweden and a quote from your second source seems to confirm that:

Legislation has been changed so that the environment and conservation are now considered to be as important as production. Moreover, forest industry companies have taken the initiative in developing new methods - which go beyond their legal obligations - to effectively preserve biodiversity.

Withal, I think our Scandinavian friends have a lot to do but also much to teach us.
Cheers.

Can we get back to the real issue here please! Beer to Bratwurst ratio at a BBQ. When hosting a neocan gathering be sure the trough is full at all times. You don't wish to offend your guests by running low. They could view this as a sign of weakness. You risk being left off the list for the upcoming Premiers Ball! Another thing. Always have your BMW washed and waxed before the party. Park it at a jaunty angle so your guests will think you are a bit of a character. These are just some of the rules to live by when you are an up and coming neocon...

clubofrome
Good to know. I never could understand the way the cars used to pile up in such interesting patterns along SW Marine Drive - I thought it was an emergency when I drove by those environs of a weekend - but you're saying it's all carefully planned!! I hope thomas picks up your post - I think he may have been puzzled too. I'm sure Elliot will be glad of the beer/bratwurst details.
Chrs

Standard neocon formula.... Same as Cocktails to Canapes at a Convention. "Waiter! Please bring more of those delicious little sandwiches with the crusts cut off!" Just like when they were kids. They didn't know who was paying for the food then and they still don't! Still you have to empathize... the pressure they are under to appear knowlegable and wealthy at every turn lest someone suspect you of caring for the less fortunate! Hefty Red Cross and Cancer fund donations replace meaningful deductions because your accountant is friends with the Kampbells! Oh the horror! Waking up in a cold sweat like you knew you were guilty of murder!! Whew, it was just a dream....

LOL
Mayhap they donate the crusts to a food bank as a kind of post-modern version of Timbits...what a lovely....(God I hate that word) ... event we had last weekend!!!

There is a passage in Howard's End that I underlined years ago and it took me a minute to find it:

I always thought it was a lot harder to escape the bloody rich!
Gotta go, later

Club, great post guy. Gave me some laughs.

Just waiting to vote for the Dolphin Party...

Timing is everything.... Dolphin party indeed! White Cats, Black Cats see "Lost Ferry" thread. Rick posted a great link there.

Speaking of mindless waste of resources, NASA plans to hurl a probe at the moon to search for ice, frozen water. The reason? They've given up on life down here! Hey we all love a good Star Trek episode or movie now and again, but can we cut the crap for a minute here! We're not going anywhere! Our success as a species begins and ends here on earth. The Dolphins already figured that out. That's why they are content to live and play a simple life. Apparently Dolphins are the only other species who have sex just for the enjoyment. I was going to save that tid bit for the campaign but we may as well leak a few of our campaign pearls now, being spring and all...

Spcae the final frontier! Maybe the space between people's ears!

The Moon, Mars, whatever! I agree we have only one spaceship and its called Earth!

Why explore Mars? do we figure that we need another planet after we trash this one?

Why is it when humans go into space they are frugal with their resources (water, air, food), yet have no concern for being frugal with those same resources (necessary for life) here on spaceship earth!

I really enjoy the lack of intellect some utilize while pontificating.

Primates,have sex for fun...and the bonobo chimpanze is know for having sex anytime,anywhere for any reason...sounds like HENRY MILLER AND ANAIS NINN IN THE JUNGLE

If a forest company could replant trees that have been engineered to grow without branches, would they?

If they could operate a sawmill that is completely automated with no human employees, do you think they would?

What good is an economy if there aren't any livlihoods?

Lack of enjoyment make you brave eh Harald?

LIKE THE BONOBO AND HENRY MILLER...I ENJOY LIFE ANYWHERE ,ANYPLACE ANYTIME .

Get your own shtick harry....

Don't just stand there staring at your feet defend yourself man!

Must be enjoying life as we speak! Have you heard it's even better with a partner? Later....

How right you were ! Just cranking up the BBQ for some salmon steaks,gotta cold brew freezing my fingers and the stereo is a blasting...and you are right it is better with a partner,she will be home soon though.

Did you want me to tell you what it's like to really DO IT with someone or is that gonna ruin your doll fantasies/then again i do not know what you are ? he/she/it ?

oh,well! later...

harald
dude, you should follow the Dolphin thing back up the trail, you'd be surprised where it started!
clubofrome was making a joke - a pretty good one too - that actually started with Thomas49 and his beer and bratwurst jibe at Elliot. You took his words out of context,IMO

Clubofome
Unless of course this spaceship happens to get whacked by a bloody great meteor and then the whole life cycle gets to start over again with something else and if we last long enough (unlikely, we haven’t even been around as long as the dinosaurs were) we get rewarded with being fried to a crisp when our sun packs it in.

Interesting dolphin story (Pacific whitesides) We were conducting a man overboard drill up near Namu, dressed up the new guy in the survival suit and tossed him overboard, as we went about the drill, several dolphins detached from their pod, circled the kid and then came over circled us and swam back to the kid. They didn’t leave until we pulled him from the water. Very cool

Having once been a Dolphin myself, I can say with certainty, Dolphins are the most intelligent species on the planet. Possibly in the universe. OK harald, Bonobo is running a close second! Like the Canucks will need to do tonight, we as a species must get back to basics. We must teach the skills that lead to sustainability. We must never forget that we are part of nature, entwined, our fates forever linked. I may have a warped sense of humor, but it's really a celebration of our special gift of life. A fragile web that relies on the health of other species. We get a glimpse of what could be as our imaginations take us into the future. A future that depends on the diversity of life that is now in peril. Such potential, wondrous inventions, music, art things worth celebrating, all in jeopardy while less than 5% of the population controls the fate of the rest. Take off the blinders! Listen to the wisdom here in Fiat Lux, Coyote and Frank! Vote for life every day with your consummer spending! The first "R" is Refuse! Refuse to play their game. I mean really! They are making fools out of us! TV commercials!?? Are you kidding me??!! Cloned, droned and dumbed down to the point where you need blue pills, shiney beads and fuzzy things all around you. You vote out the black cats to elect the white cats! ARGHHHHHHHHHH! Just thinking about it makes me wanna scream. Somebody please slap some sense into us! In America they could have voted for Ralph Nader, instead they got GWB, twice. ARGHHHHHHHH! O great Meteor, where art thou?

Many a day I feel ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Maybe a metoer would be fitting, or some alien race destroying Earth to make way for an interstellar exit ramp (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Universe!).

We know how to live sustainably, there just is not much, if any, profit in it!

So most choose not to pursue sustainability.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Well... I admire your passion freebear, and your consistant message of caution. The folks who are making out OK, as in 2 homes, 2 cars, 2 kids and lots of modern conveniences are afraid to lose their gains. There is no evidence to them we are in peril. I have many debates with pure selfish capitalists in my home province and they don't see any social mandate period. They've insulated themselves with this newfound wealth. Programmed to ignore the canary in the mineshaft so to speak... ARGHHHHHHHH