I wait with glee to hear the wisdom on how Stephen Harper will govern the country with an even smaller minority than the Liberals had until last night.

Would any of the three opposition parties ever agree to a pact with these guys if it means Stockboy will be representing Canada to the rest of the world?

Pretty scary, eh?

I disagree. BC voted exactly the way Ontario did considering the popular vote. The Torys won the majority of seats in the province. And the Maritimes rejected the Torys outright. It would appear that we are just as pedestrian as the rest of the country outside of AB, SK, and MN. I don't get where the NDP believe they hold the balance of power. Harper doesn't need the NDP. He only needs the support of the Bloc. Brace yourselves for some real western allienation as we watch our knight betray us and pacify Quebec in an effort to get re-elected.

Margaret Wente in today's Globe has a theory that Belinda unknowingly has made Harper the man he is today, P.M.!
QUOTE:
"When Stephen Harper sends out his postelection thank-you notes, he owes an extra-special thank you to Belinda Stronach. Without her, he might not be prime-minister-designate today. …

The Woman Who United The Right, blared The Globe and Mail over a babe-alicious photo of Belinda. Now this was news! Unlike the two men, she had sex appeal.

Nobody was enthusiastic about either man to lead the merged party. "A fresh face is needed," opined National Post columnist Don Martin. Alberta Premier Ralph Klein questioned if either man had the "timbre of what is needed to be national leader." Joe Clark was certain the merger would be a disaster. "Progressive Conservatives are being asked to vote 'yes' to suicide," he wrote in November of 2003. …

one dramatic day last May, Belinda dumped both her party and her man and crossed the floor to join the Liberals, thus saving Paul Martin's government from certain defeat and the country from a summer election.

Her defection had one other remarkable result. It united the Conservative Party. When a shattered Peter MacKay came into caucus that day, Stephen Harper stepped completely out of character, and hugged him. The caucus members erupted into cheers. After that, insiders say, the warring factions finally began to bond. …

Then Mr. Harper embarked on his makeover. He needed one. In spite of Liberal scandals, he was still unpopular. "However disgusted people may be with the Liberals, they're not going to forget that the alternative is a snarling, mean-eyed pit bull," one opinion-monger wrote last May. (Hint: It was me.) Lots of people doubted the Conservatives would win unless he was replaced with somebody more voter-friendly.

What if Belinda hadn't crossed the floor? It's a tantalizing question. Maybe Mr. Harper would have squeaked in anyway. Or maybe the Conservatives would be having a leadership convention. Personally, my bet is that she did him an enormous favour.

For one brief, shining moment, Belinda Stronach was the most important woman in Canadian politics. Then she made a disastrous career move, and now she's just a footnote. Funny how things work out sometimes. "
-Margaret Wente

i worked as a deputy returning officer in the 59036 riding, the one you refer to as a very long name. thank heavens for numbers over words. there is so many forms you have to work with upon closing the doors to balance votes cast with ballots left over that assigned numbers are a blessing. didn't want to even type my riding in this message! robert furness

The Conservatives were not helped at all in BC because of our dear Gordo. A true neocon at heart, his lies and deiceit has greatly discredited any right of centre party in BC.

Of course Svend was the wrong candidate to run, the voters are tired of him and Layton should wish him a long and properous retirement.

The elected BC NDP may not be as great as one would think, many are higher purpose personsplaying to their own political tune. To survive, Layton must modernize the NDP, but not with his lot of BC retreads!

The Liberals in BC, bought their votes, RAV and other lavish spensing to the Liberal elites, of course they got their troops out.

If Harper wishes to win in two years time, he must moderate and expose us to a wealth of Liberal scandals. Putting a few Liberals in jail will help!

The funny thing about last night was just how genuinely happy everyone looked all around (except Deceppe, I guess).

Paul Martin looked more jovial than I've ever seen him. I think he was genuinely relieved to take this load off. The demands of family honour have been met, which was the real impetus behind his long climb to the top job, in my opinion. His wife looked very at peace too. One image stuck in my mind: a smarmy Jean Lapierre giving them both a smirking kiss-off. Expect a French renaissance in the Liberal Party, led by an aggressive cadre of such slippery Trudeauite spawns.

Harper has been sounding more Prime Ministerial with each passing day, and last night was the cherry on the cake. Not sure what his cabinet is going to look like (Stock is going to be given a sop like Heritage or Citizenship) but I think Canada is actually going to get some leadership for a change. One image didn't fit though: I wish he'd given his wife a real embrace with a real kiss. This man needs to unplug himself a little. Perhaps he'll grow into it.

Stronach looked suspiciously like the cat who ate the canary. She looked far too happy for a Minister stripped of her portfolio....I predict a run at the Party leadership (which will be unsuccessful). Incidentally, the real reason for her notorious crossing-of-the-floor was the two young men standing behind her on the left of the t.v. screen (one of whom was her teenage son).

There's such a lack of talent within the Bloc that I don't think Duceppe needs to fear a challenge to his leadership. He seems to enjoy his place-keeper role. I don't see any major shifts in the Bloc until the results of the Charest-Boisclair face-off are known.

Perceptions Nightbloom. Politicians are very skilled liars.

I agree, however not because of people's dislike for Gordo, but their admiration. The NDP won in all of it's traditional ridings. No surprises - they won in East Van, the Island, Southern Interior, New West and Prince Rupert. Those are traditional bastions for NDP support.

However, Gordo is extremely popular in West Vancouver, Squamish, North Vancouver, (parts of Vancouver) and Richmond. These areas have all shifted to the Liberals, in part because Gordon Campbell has raised the "Liberal" image in those areas.

PS - Tory support increased in BC (or stayed around the same), but they lost more of the three-way races. In part due to the fact that the Liberals were running stronger candidates (Joyce Murray, etc.) which split the right of center vote.

Also, the Tories won almost as many seats as the other parties....combined! It's not as if they got crushed here!

What about Delta? A true Liberal seat, yet Cummins wins in a walk!

I think what we are seeing here is more of a surge in NDP support, due to our provincial experience with the BC Liberals.

A fair number of intended NDP votes were strategically given to the Liberals to block Harper. Without those hold your nose votes the Liberals would not have faired so well and the NDP would have faired even better.

mabellbc: You are definitely torn between two lovers...perhaps even more. :-)

A rose is a rose is a rose.
And a neo-con is a neo-con is a neo-con.
No matter what name it goes by.

how do you define a liberal in BC? I guess anybody who isn't Green or NDP. In that sense, Mabellbc is correct that some "liberals admire Gordon Campbell".
If politics is a pie though, Gordon and Steven occupy the same quadrant and a narrow quadrant at that. I can't agree then Mabel, that Liberals as an ideology admire Gordon Campbell.
I think many national pollsters forget that the BC Liberal Party is pretty similiar to the CPC, a coalition of the near and far right with enough opportunist central liberals to keep the ball rolling...with a little help from the MSM, of course, to "frame" the news

lynn - while i would have agreed with you last election, I don't this election.

NDP voters wouldn't have voted strategically as it was pretty clear it was going to be a Tory minority. Thus, the NDP vote was higher than ever.

I do resent the term "neo con". Conservatives are generally honest, hard-working, law abiding, motivated people. The term makes us sound like a bunch of facists. What is wrong with opportunity, reward for hard-work or risk-taking?

That is what I can't stand about lazy socialists - you want a society of economic equality, where everybody works less and gets more - That is clear - but when you can't get what you want, you insult and call names.

I think the tories lost seats to liberals because 1) some of the tory candidates we're evangelical nut-bars and 2) immigrants (sorry - new Canadians) tend to vote liberal. Immigration continues to increase over the years and they tend to settle in Vancouver and Toronto.

In any event, I'm happy the Liberals are out (so to speak) and Harper's been given a chance.

I Like what Mark Steyn had to say:

"...Harper is not just unexciting, he's unexciting even by Canadian standards! As he told a meeting in Ontario the other day, "Bland sells."

Apparently it does. Even "the politics of personal destruction" (in Bill Clinton's phrase) depends on a certain basic plausibility. Canada's Liberal Party produced at one point an unintentionally hilarious attack ad intended to suggest that Scary Stephen's unexceptional proposal for some modest reorganisation of the military was a covert plan to introduce martial law.

It began with an ominous drumbeat and then, in urgent staccato typewriter script over a close-up of the Tory leader: "Stephen Harper actually announced he wants to increase military presence in our cities. Canadian cities. [Drumbeat] Soldiers with guns. In our cities. [Drumbeat] In Canada. We did not make this up. [Drumbeat] Choose your Canada." Rimshot! You might conceivably make this pitch work super-imposed over a close-up of certain hatchet-faced politicians. But it's hard to get away with "Aaaaieee! Here comes the right-wing death-beast!" and then show a picture of a fellow who looks like one of the more avuncular back-up singers on The Andy Williams Christmas Show. By the end of the campaign the Liberals were sounding more than a little unhinged - but, to an extent, it worked, at least in the sense that it terrified enough of the base back into the polling booths to prevent a meltdown."

Alta: Con 28 Sweep. 65% of the vote
Sask: Con 12 Lib 2 48% Con
Manitoba: Con 8 NDP 3 Lib 3 Con 48%
BC: Con 17 NDP 10 Lib 9
Ont: Lib 54 Con 40 NDP 12
Que: BQ 51 Lib 13 Con 10 Ind 1
NB: Lib 6 Con 3 NDP 1
Newf: Lib 4 Con 3
PEI: Lib 4
NS: Lib 6 Con3 NDP 2
NWT: NDP 1
Yukon: Lib 1
Nunivit: Lib 1

Numbers are accurate. Some dummy will say its in the paper… maybe. :-)

Plenty of surprises. Starting with BC, no one predicted the Liberals to do this well. The best reason is what the tri cities, Van, Tor & Mon have spoken. No Con ridings. A total blank in the 3 largest cites of the country. Its never happened.

Personally, I expected to see the Liberals do better in Ontario. The Cons did. I was surprised to see it. I didn’t think Ont. would support such a westernized leader in my lifetime. There vote was protest vote with the Libs over Montgomery and change… it won’t happen again.

Manitoba was a surprise in overall Con popular vote.

Quebec wasn’t a surprise. I thought the block would do better rurally, but…

Atlantic Canada also did better than I thought, with Libs taking 20 out of 32. I expected them to split. Polls fooled me on this one.

I was also surprised by the NDP seats elected overall. BC’s 10 seats were low to me. I was predicting as much as 14 or 15 NDP seats, but this was likely my own bias. I had expected the NDP to take 12 seats, and I was surprised twice. I had expected Jennifer Burgis to do win in the Gulf Islands, as well as Mike Crawford in Kamloops. I still feel that these individuals were the better Candidates for this country, but this next surprise cound explain why voters missed it.

Derek Zeisman got 19% of the vote in his riding. 19%? Its like saying that close to a fifth of this riding is huffing glue. A small point is taken with 1.75 per vote going to the Cons. Interesting that they’ll take the money, but won’t take the candidate. I’m glad the rest of the pop in this riding wasn’t this out to lunch.

Bobb999: You are on the money with your predictions, and Paul’s face of a loser. Boy… its tough writing that step down retirement, loss speech. Personally, I’m going to miss his surplus's. And, I'm going to some of his views. It was a tough government to inherit after Montgomery and cobb webs.

Gomer - in the small 'c' more multi-cultural conservative ridings in the north shore and richmond - Gordon Campbell is a hero!

All I am saying is that there has been positive correlation between the BC Liberals and the Federal Liberals in those ridings.

As far as Harper goes, we now have the opportunity to figure out the truth. We will get to know Mr. Harper and time will tell if is FAR right (as you fear mongers try to portray), right, or slightly right of Centre.

So, I urge everybody to keep an open mind! If they run the country like Alberta, great!

I would love to see Canada as a land of opportunity, with high productivity and hard work - low taxes and strong social programs!

mabellbc: Thanks for the insult.

Mabell...I listened to Harper and Layton totally demonize Martin. The name calling actually started with Harper when he won his party's leadership. I didn't hear Layton calling Svend a crook. I didn't hear Harper condemn Pat Carney, a conservative senator, for her culture of entitlement. What I saw instead was a bunch of self serving puke fest ending with the country in the most precarious situation since confederation. As for West Van going Liberal, I suppose the 2010 Alimmpdix had nothing to do with it.

RE Correction: tri city Con blank has never happened "with any Con government".

Hey Brain - apologies!

I am tired of people villifying conservatives as greedy red-necks.

I personally respect Carole James and Jack Layton. I believe they care! However, what's clear is the economic devestation that follows. You don't have to look further than BC, Ontario, Saskatchewan or the Maritimes to figure that out.

I'll tell you this though - you can thank George Bush for the Tory Minority. He's made Conservatives look crazy!

Its been very easy to point to the faults of the administration and draw parallels to Harper's Tories.

He's haulted the Conservative movement throughout the world and I for one am hoping to see a fluff-ball democrat get elected!

Really? Does this mean that Brian Mulroney was just misunderstood?

Some neo-cons may be honest, hard working, etc. Big whoop. The neo-con political movement is inextricably tied to the religious right, and has been for many years. Personally I'd take a corrupt government 10 times out of 10 over one backed by the Christian right. The corrupt government may stick its hands in my pockets, but it doesn't try to force everyone to conform to their own narrow little worldview.

After pointing out that the big shift in seats in BC did not reflect big shifts in the popular vote, Barrett gives us the apparently obligatory "blame it on the first past the post system if you want" comment.ENOUGH ALREADY!!-unless you are totally committed to minority governents as the gold standard of how a parliamentary democracy should work. And as the last two elections have demonstrated, we don't need to change the first past the post system to achieve that dubious end anyway.

The only significant change proportional representation would achieve in Canada, based on the historical vote counts, would be to increase NDP seats and decrease BQ seats. which would mean that the governments would shift between Liberal and Conservative minorities with the NDP always holding the "balance of power". Thus, a system where the party with the most seats (ie Liberal or Conservative) would get to set the agenda and fill the cabinet posts, and the perpetual third party NDP would have the effective legislative power. Not my idea of an ideal system thank you very much.

Incidentally, applying proportionate representation (province by province) would have produced 120 Conservatives, 100 Liberals, 56 NDP, and 32 BQ. Not much effective change, except that,ironically, given the "The West is finally in" comments of the media, the big regional impact would be that the Conservative seats in western Canada would be reduced from 65 to 43- so the West wuld be much weaker under the Harper administration than it will be under the present system.

Mabell: Run the country like Alberta...

Lets see. It is the one province that has more foreign ownership and taxes paid "out of the country", than any other province. Those riches aren't going to Canadians, there. Can't see how that is a success. All workers are down there, are slaves to the U.S. empire, and brainwashed into to thinking they are something more.

Maybe you should start asking why Alta oil royalties are the lowest in the world. While your at it, you can start asking yourself why they are low on the totem when paying teachers and nurses, with all that fat cat cash.

Eddy - I don't remember Harper ever insulting Martin personally. I think he criticized the Liberals for their clear lack of ethics, and accountability.

It was the Liberal campaign targeted at Harper. The Conservative campaign targeted at their agenda, with the odd add about their corruption. Most of their campaign of fear and hate was based on half-truths or full out lies!

Although - I admit, I could have my blinders on! I do subscribe to the National Post - on line.

Maybell:
I agree with you on your last post, except for the part about Bush making Cons look bad. The Cons chose there identity, forged by Flanagan and Calgary Co. I don't expect the Cons to have much success in parliment or with increased riding support in the next election. The U.S. should go democrat, but it doesn't change the immediate problems our countries share.

Look for Ken Dryden to be the next Liberal leader, Ken or Belinda and I see Ken coming in for the save on this one.

Brain -

They all seem to have big bank accounts, big houses and nice cars. They also have the lowest rates of poverty and drug abuse. They are among the healthiest provinces, and are the happiest.

They have good social programs. So, you can go on about your out of country taxes all you want - when you clearly know little about what your are talking about.

The most active drillers in the Alberta are Encana, Petro Canada, Shell (Europe) and Suncor (who control the oil sands). I don't see one American company in there.

You are correct that many of the shareholders are in the U.S. - but who cares! I see the Yankees are partners, and you see us as slaves.

Plus - royalties are bad. They reduce profits and slow growth.

As far as nurses - we should open up the health care system so that nurses are paid their market value.

I can't comment on the teachers - quite frankly I haven't ever paid attention to what a teacher in Alberta makes. I can tell you that they complain and play a lot of politics in BC though.

I feel compelled to disagree with you, mabellbc, on your earlier point about gordo being "extremely popular" in Squamish!!!!!
I'm sure that carpetbaggers, greedy developers, land speculators and quickly emerging "million dollar" house elite will agree but the displaced renters, now unemployed mill workers, former BC Rail employees, and everyone else suffering from his cynical, greed driven, divisive policies will also beg to differ, most emphatically.
Until his, and his sinister puppet-master's gentrification project is complete, he will remain a figure of revulsion to blue-collar Squamites.
If you don't agrre with me consider the outcome of the federal election in this riding.
It may well have been the strategic Squamish Liberal vote which tipped the balance against the thinly veiled gordo soul-brother, federal conservative party.

p.s.-many thanks to all those who heeded the numerous plea's for said strategic voting in this riding.

Gee, last time I looked the provincial Liberal party had absoultley nothing to do with any federal party. When are you people going to stop refighting elections you have lost? Maybe you should do something to reform your party so it can actually win elections.

Like severing formal ties with the labour unions. It worked in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I find the NDP in both provinces very appealing. In BC the provincial NDP is just a mouth piece for Jim Sinclair and Jinny Simms. That is why they did not get elected.

Get it?

No, you do not.

wstander:

Wrong! The significant change would be that EVERYONE'S vote would count. Explain to me, for example, why there are no Greens in Parliament? They get enough votes to be worthy of representation, don't you think?

And the Greens are just one example of parties disadvantaged by FPTP. And even if it were just a matter of, as you say, "to increase NDP seats and decrease BQ seats", isn't that, if it is FAIRER, reason enough to dump FPTP?

mabellbc: apology accepted ;-)
wstander: you forgot to include the greens in your pop porportional representation, but its a good valid point.

Analysis: Close to 70% of eligible voters voted!!!! This is great!!! I’m proud of you, Canada. Really, I’ve got tears, because I didn’t expect this. This was probably the greatest and best surprise of all. Canada has spoken!!

We are going to be smarter voters, next time. Most of the issues will still be in our brains and memories, with false arguments casting doubt in the voters mind, in the next election coming soon.

We Canadians have more experience, especially with polls, policies, everything. 80% of eligible voters likely even know something about their candidates (I hope). What we also have coming into the next election, is voting without fear. This election had a lot of fear in it. The next one won’t have this fear, persay. Voters will be more optimistic for positive change.

Personally, I would like to see no shows in riding debates be the equivilancy of committing political suicide. Like? I would love to see it.

We are going to have better Candidates. There are 3 ridings that need entirely new candidates, in my opinion. There are 5 ridings in BC that went as byes because there was no competition from other parties. My call is out to those who feel they have enough of a background to get a Green voice heard. As much as people love to smear them, we need them, at the very least, ideologically.

From here on in, its about who leads the Liberals, and who forms the next alliances to push paper in government, and of this there are two possiblilities. With the Libs for leadership, Ken Dryden, and Belinda. Other names will come out, but Ken Dryden should come out for the save.

With alliances, its Cons and Bloc, or Libs, Bloc and independent (and there is still a recount, with 20 votes separating them, Con elect and Lib challenge). This latter alliance could pull some coups, and shame a Con government that could counter by pushing paper that will force a non-confidence vote.
Internationally, Harper is our PM regardless of alliances. Internally, it could be very different. I predict another election within a year.

Lib leadership will dominate the News early on, then alliances (or broken alliances) will dominate this years news. I would be shocked to see anyone ally with the Cons. They are to far apart on just about every issue.

These are the pinnacles of this years headlines, and they are big. The Libs aren't some extinct PC party rising from the ashes. The tri cities have spoken. Not one Con vote.

Mabell... I seem to recall a third party ad urging people to vote against the Grits "unless, of course, you are a criminal." I didn't hear any Torys complaining about how insulting that was. I hope that Harper does start a purge of our criminals; starting with tax evaders and GST cheats.

jesterjgger

You're welome. This entire household -- 2 NDP and 1 Green -- cast, rather reluctantly, for Blair Wilson and the Liberals (more accurately: AGAINST HARPER).

PLEASE! Can't we have proportional rep?

Grub - while I don't think FPTP is perfect, I do think it is the best.

It ensures that local interests are (at least partially) represented, and allows for more frequent majorities.

These minorities are ineffective and complicate government. These European countries have terrible problems with their proportional representation.

While the FPTP it not perfect, neither are the others' - and we'll end up opening a whole new can of worms.

the brain

How was that a valid point? A party gets a significant number of votes but no representation, and you call that a "good valid point". What's good or valid about it?

mabellbc

Hmmm... are you sure? Since WWII, Germany seems to have done quite well in terms of governance, law and order, social programs, and economics. And all of it due primarily to the COOPERATION between politicians of different stripes.

I'd be interested in your analysis of German politics over the past 55 years and why you think they've had "terrible problems". Do you know this for a fact, or are you just making this up?

Greens got no higher than 5% in any province except Alberta (6.6). Since 8% is the lowest % the NDP got in any province, it seemed logical to simply ignore the 5% or less as a nuisance vote. In any event, Greens would have got nothing in Atlantic Canada (eg 4% in a province with 4 seats produces no seat, 3% in a province with 11 seats the same). Applying the vote to the provinces where they could have produced one seat, you would have got 2 from BC, 2 from Alberta, 5 from Ontario, and 3 from Quebec. I didn't do the math as to who would lose those seats, but essentially, so what?

Mabellbc:
healthy, drug abuse, alchoholism, gambling, smoking... these are under contention and while I can't yet throw stats your way, nor, I suspect yourself, its worth looking into.

Naturally, Alberta is flush with cash, but this is due to their tax base and a government that is debt free. Show me another region that has these advantages...

As for oil companies, Burlington, which is now american, Husky, which is hong kong owned, and Encana, Shell and Suncor (another corporation that has major U.S. percentages owning them)... my point is, we should care who owns the paper on these companies!

This is how I see it, and its not far different than your's, I suspect. If foreign companies want to do business in this country, then pay income taxes in this country too!
Otherwise, what we have is American oil companies paying royalties for business and that's about it, unless they pay their income taxes here. I feel that Alta's low royalties are also a big mistake, given current high oil and gas prices. High prices, high royalties. Low prices, low royalties. Tax payers are currently missing out, and they only get to sell it once.

grub:
I think your going after the wrong people, here. If you support popular vote representation, than you shouldn't be voicing your displeasure on us. The one problem with popular vote representation is, of course, who gets to represent this popular vote? Leave it to parties? I feel, as many do, I'm sure, that it should be left in the democratic hands of the people to vote their reps in, and popular vote representation does not yet address this issue.

STV is a version of PR that does address that concern brain.

I know its off-topic but did anyone else read the Tyee link to this story?

http://harpers.org/InTheZone.html

I found it upsettng.

Pieces of shit, I wonder if foreign minister Day would support them?

wstander:

You seem rather cavalier with other people's ballots. I have what you might consider a silly notion that votes ought to count. My notion is that if there are enough voters of a particular political persuasion, beyond some threshold (let's say 5% across the nation), then they ought to get representation. Fairness may be a matter of "so what" to you, but it is very important to me.

Further, I think it fair to assume that if Green supporters, for example, knew that their votes would really count and be meaningful, they'd be less inclined to vote strategically. Hence, I think you'd see a dramatic increase in Green votes.

Under PR, the NDP would have garnered 2 more votes and the Greens one more -- votes from this household that strategically went to the Liberals.

I resent having to hold my nose when I vote.

Grub - albeit I am barely 30 - and barely remember Mulroney, let alone WWII.

However, since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the combination of capitalist west germany and socialist east germany - germany has seen nothing short of an economic disaster.

I don't know about governance or ethics, but I can tell you for fact that they have an unemployment of 10%+ and very little job growth. Youth unemployment is among the highest in the EU.

the brain:

That's why I advocate a mixed FPTP-PR system where 50% of your parliament would be chosen as per the current system and the other 50% based on proportionality.

As to the power of parties; my view is that my local MLA/MP is rather irrelevant to my life. The party in power, insofar as it enacts legislation which surely will impact my life, is VERY RELEVANT to me. Give me a monkey as an MP, so long as he's of the correct political stripe .

wstander:

The greens still have 600,000 votes or more in this country and they are trying to say something. "Our environment is the number one issue!" This message is valid idologically, so while most of it pass this movement off as fleeting or a joke, or this or that, or Jim Harris is right or crook or this or that, the bottom line is that we need this message to be represented, especially in the face of declining environments.

The thing were missing with the Greens is that if a high profile person stepped in like say David Suzuki, there would be a green seat in the commons and more to follow.

I see Jim Harris stepping down due to bad press, more than anything. I can't fault his efforts on my end. I also see voters voting without fear in the next election. Polls indicated more strength for the Greens until it came time to vote, which is only natural.

If there is less fear of a Con majority, there will be more Green support in the next election. They could a million votes next time, and then it would be foolish to post comments that "The Greens should fold".
That's alot of people to ditz over bias, or arguements of split votes, or calling green, black or white or anything else.

Look at what CRAP is, and its roots for western control and US social, economical and international policy... Look at the roots of the Libs with moderation. Look at the NDP roots of labour or equality. Look at the Green roots of environment. Does the environment not have a place? Canadians think so. And they'll think more so with the global warming challenges to come.

Look at your own stat's with the Greens doing well in Alberta and tell me that it isn't a part of their conciousness. This was the one province that voted without fear. Remove fear, and you'll see Green support that is undeniable. It just won't be there in the next election, unless the Libs blow it their leadership convention.

Frank: I'm not up to speed on STV.
Could you or someone provide a link or lead on that one for me please, buddy? Thanks, dude.

mabellbc

And mabellbc, what is the size of that economy? Depending on what measure you prefer to use, either number 2, or number 3 or, at worst, number 4 in the world. I'd say that's pretty darned good, wouldn't you?

As to their problems; do you attribute them to the electoral system? Do you think that taking on the burden of a bankrupt GDR might be a contributing factor?

mabelbc...sorry for taking so long...busy being a lazy socialist and then had to spread fear and lies throughout the land.
just for the record, i work very hard, make millions of dollars for my employer, am responsible and personally liable for a multi million dollar piece of equipment, am responsible and liable for the lives and safety of other employees under my supervision and yes am paid a reasonable wage for my efforts. Also, i am a socialist.
I bring this up only to point out that your resentment at being typecast works both ways. I know socialists who fit your description but also conservatives who spout propaganda as much as they dodge work.
Actually, i was busy keeping the dog from harrassing the cat

Hey, lets get back to whats coming up the political pipe.

Anyone with predictions on who is the next Lib leader?

Anyone with predictions on alliances that work or fail?

NDP doesn't hold balance of power. They get a bye. But, the Cons could pass paper with the Bloc (fat chance) and the Libs could pass paper with the Bloc and Independent. Will they try?

Anyone with predictions on the next legislation the Cons try to pass?

Anyone with predictions on when they will try and fail leading to the next election?

Any one with predictions on when the next election will come?

I think we will see at least two years before the next election. This will give the Liberals enough time to have voters forget their scandals and focus on those of Herr Harper. By then the cons will be running fat budget defecits and the nutters will be in full loony mode.

Besides, the Liberals need Herr Harper to reform the Canada Health Act, which is hopelessly out of date and bottomless money pit of socialist mediocracy, inaction and waste. We are moving to a Western-Euorpean model of delivery and letting Herr Harper do the dirty work is much to the Liberal's advantave.

When running in the next election, they can promise to "stop medicine for profit (as if it is not that way now, by the way)" and then backpeddle on their promise, a la GST.

Gotta love politics, eh?

If anything, this election proved to me beyond any doubt, that the corporate elite in this country and their cohorts south of the border, were very nervous at the prospect of losing their favoured two-party system (tweedledum and tweedledee) in Canada, with the emergence of the NDP as a very viable alternative (though they do have a fixation with centre field, eg. Hargrove et al). Presto!...we have the Green Party (apologies to 'Grub'), with an agenda not too far out from the NDP (but fiscally conservative, mind you, ...where did all that money come from?); whose only intention was to slow down the forward rush of NDP support and power in our next Parliament. It didn't work out too well for the boardroom boys, so now the scrambling for position is taking place as we speak: Martin resigns...Ignatieff is waiting in the wings. Let the next scenario begin; the Liberal leadership succession, and the right-wing tilt of the Liberals is under way. I hope Jack Layton is mending his fences with rank and file Labour, because the next gala is going to be a scorcher.

I used to live in Alberta. There's more wealth to go around, but it's really not all that different except for the scenery. People who work hard can make lots of money, people who don't work hard still get the annual "thanks for being an Albertan" cheques.
There is one big difference, however, a difference in attitude. In B.C. we seem to have a mentality of entitlement. We deserve the right to have the best medical care at any time in any community with no waiting, regardless of what it might cost. And medical care is more important than anything else, don't you forget that! Don't you dare think about foreign policy, national unity or national resources! The most important thing in the world is the right to pay higher taxes so grandma can have her joint replacement surgery in six months instead of eight.
We also deserve the right to live in our ghost towns along the coast collecting welfare while the rest of the world changes and we pine for a bygone era, hoping for a future that will never come.
And we deserve to have so many social programs you could catch krill in the social safety net. It's not a last resort, after all – it's the first resort in this culture of entitlement. Whatever would we do without the old standby of being able to collect welfare? We might actually bust our humps and take a job that required hard work, or even move to another province!
Meanwhile, in Alberta, instead of waiting for the government to fix their problems and tell them what to do, people go get high-paying jobs in the oil fields, make merry bundles of cash and look after themselves and their families.
This election really shows off this difference. Instead of recognizing the opportunity to be part of the government for a change, and speak for ourselves even if it's a Conservative government and we might not particularly like their politics, we decided instead to cast our lot with the smallest party in Parliament, a party of back-room alliances, sleazy politicking, propaganda and rhetoric. And no staying power.
Guess what. If the Conservatives ally with the Bloc, and it's likely they will, our wide-eyed rookie idealist NDP politicians will be about as useful as tits on a bull, to use a charming country metaphor. And once they're in Ottawa, don't expect to see hide nor hair of them other than the odd mumbled comment of how hard they're "working for working families," whatever the hell that means.
Bah. Get ready for another long haul of useless representation and the federal government ignoring us.

Brain:

My prediction that the first piece of legislation that Harper et al will try to pass is going to be their $1200/year child care "plan".

My reasoning is as follows:
1. It pokes a stick in the eye of his would-be allies and forces them to either become complicit with his demands or force a new election. Since nobody wants an election the NDP and the Bloc will grudgingly go along at worst and at best will abstain.

2. It throws a bone to his "family values" contingent who will appreciate the extra cash and reward his loyalty while waiting for him to make progress on their "issues".

GJW:

I only have one question. If Alberta is utopia then why are you here?

Liberals will hold onto Martin as long as they can and he may possibly lead them into the next round depending on the circumstances of non confidence in the cpc
I say this because liberal strategists will determine that the drifting liberal vote will forgive Martin and believe he has been adequately spanked as will the Chretienites...bringing anyone new will start a purge. Martin may be sincere re his resignation...but in politics, nothing is forever
I will have to think a bit on what circumstances in the next year or so will create this scenario

Actually, GJW, there plenty of people in BC who believe in just what you posted here. I am one myself. I work hard and take care of myself and my own.

However, you will not find people such as yourself and myself on this site too often. BC NDPers would rather whine about how other people are making their lives miserable and how the dirty, rottens _________s are depriving them of their birthright.

The also harken back to days that really never existed.

Remember that BC was also founded on the hard work of individuals who were willing to work hard and take action to help themselves. The lay-abouts have only held power 13 years since 1871. They do tend to have a lot of free time (because they work as little as possible) and make noise all out of proportion to their numbers. Hell, in this riding you would have thought Svend would have won by a landslide judging by the numbers of signs, door knockers and telephone calls I got.

But working people are too busy, as am I. Back to the grind-stone. I makin' money and payin' taxes, not waiting for a hand-out!

michael clift

Even more benign, and likely to have all of Canada saluting and wondering why they thought he was a bad guy: he'll pass that tax deduction for having your kids in various sports team... it sounds good to me...

Oh, and i forgot to add: I'm soooo relieved Svend Robinson didn't get back in Parliament.

The moment i heard him boast about how he was gonna head down to Haiti as soon as he's elected to find out "what's going on down there" I though to myself that his reinstatement in the House would be an ignominy that simply must be averted at all costs...even if it means voting for Hedy (which it did).

To all you NDPers: Could you have run Kennedy Stewart again in Vancouver-Centre. He was fantastic (and sane too!). If we go to the polls again in another 18 months, give me someone like Kennedy Stewart as a viable alternative, not Svend Robinson.

Eddy Haskel
Since when are Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba not pedestrian, to say the least?

nightbloom, did you see Svendy-poo crash Hedy Fry's Global TV victory interview? Talk about low class and the epitome of everything Svendish.

I can hear the voices from Haiti, "Svend, save us! Svend, save us! Teach us what 'condtional discharge' means!"

Working Man says:

I like that bit about "take action to help themselves". Are you a bit of an historian WM? It brings to mind the acions of Ginger Goodwin and hundreds like him. ( http://www.carpentersunionbc.com/Pages/gingergoodwin.html )

Thanks for reminding me why I support the union movement; it's all about people taking action to help themselves.

brain and mabellbc:
After the last contracts were signed with the nurses and teachers unions, they became the highest paid (or maybe second) in Canada. We have the lowest unemployment in the country and can't find enough workers. I can guarantee that nobody here feels like a slave. Great health care, great education,clean air, and 28 Conservatives, ain't no place better. (OK, we're missing an ocean, but you can't have everything).

And grub, I am all in favour of that. Just separate the NDP from its BC Fed masters and they will get elected again.

Funny thing: every time I see CPC it looks like an abbreviation for Communist Party of Canada - clearly something subliminal related to the image of all those automatons voting for nothing but Harper in Alberta - Now there's an example of a one-party state!

"Maybe you should start asking why Alta oil royalties are the lowest in the world. While your at it, you can start asking yourself why they are low on the totem when paying teachers and nurses, with all that fat cat cash."

LOL! Check your facts. Compare what a teacher in Calgary or Edmonton makes to a teacher in BC.

Hey, Working Man, how did Ed Broadbent do in Ottawa Center? ROFL!!! Like, anyone could believe anything you say now.

good point grub

nightbloom says

The moment i heard him boast about how he was gonna head down to Haiti as soon as he's elected to find out "what's going on down there"

Yea nightbloom, what a crazy thing to do, a politician having a soul and social conscience and actually wanting to address the issue of Haiti and Canada's role in the occupation and coup of a democratic government the persecution of the poorest country in the hemisphere, what a silly think hey nightbloom, I guess you want your tax dollars to continue to flow to Haiti.

Do us all a favor, just have your starbucks and stop making ignorant statements about things you obviously know nothing about. bad karma man

I love BC and Canada for rejecting conservatives, 184 ridings coast to coast voted against conservatives , they
will still be lame ducks in the house unless they want an election a year from now, the minority will keep the loons at bay. The conservatives party of nightbloom, I love Myron Thompson from Manitoba, he thinks picking on gays in schools is good for them.

The right to free speech does not carry a commensurate right that forces me to listen. Because 5% or less of the people in each province want to vote Green, that does not mean they have a right to representation in the Parliament. The numbers indicate that the party does not have an agenda that is of signifigance to a meaningful number of citizens qua voters in a federal election. If, Green voters have issues that they consider to be of importance, I suggest they devote the time, money, and effort to furthering the advancement of those issues in lobbying groups such as Greenpeace, WWF, Sierra, etc, or in shaping the platforms of political parties that have a hope of doing something about the issues in the Parliament.

Chris H: I noticed you didn't say anything about Alta oil royalties. I also noticed you didn't provide any proof. By all means, please provide a link.

wstander: Re Greens getting some representation in Parliament
And why not? Are the opinions of the folks who vote green somehow less worthy? THat's a pretty prejudicial thing to say for somebody who is an ostensible democrat.

I don't vote Green but feel it must suck to get 5-6% of the vote and 0 seats while the Bloc
has 10% of the vote and 51 seats. Proportional representation would look like this

Cons 37% = 114 seats
Libs 30% = 92 seats
NDP 20 % = 62 seats
Bloc 10% = 30 seats
Green 5-6% = 10 seats

You see FPTP panders to the BLOC, if we had proportional representation we would never see
strategic voting and the whole one party dictatorship would end forever.

I love that Albertan pride themselves on being "rugged individualists" yet massively vote conservative over and over.

Alberta is the purfect example of why we need proportional representation. Everyone here did NOT vote conservative.

Chris H:
Try this website for the facts. http://www.teachers.ab.ca/Issues+In+Education/Ongoing+Issues/Teacher+Salaries.htm

In it, you'll find this cut I've provided.

" The government says that Alberta teachers earn the highest average salary in Canada. This is not surprising as the Alberta teaching force tends to be older and more experienced than the Canadian average. Also, this statistic aligns with general salary trends. Alberta’s full-time, full-year workers earn only marginally less than do workers in Ontario, who are the highest paid in Canada. Furthermore, Alberta wages have increased at a higher rate than those in Ontario.

While the government points out that teacher salaries rose by 11.7 percent above inflation between 1996/97 and 2002/03, at the same time the salaries of full-time, full-year workers in Alberta rose by close to 14 percent above inflation. If anything, teacher salaries losing ground relative to the salaries paid other workers."

Keep in mind that teacher salaries go up incrementally with their years of experience.
I know this, because my sister is an educator for 14 years now, and is in an administrative, budgetary role that deals with real purse strings. The big difference between 96 and 2003 was the arbitration ruling that created a pay increase of 11.75% from 2001 to 2003. Before that, teachers in Alta were underpaid, clocking in 9th in Canada overall, provincially.

Where are they now in the median age average? 7th provincially on experience median payrolls, but there could be an agreement coming anytime between unions and goverment, looking to see teachers climbing to 2nd in Canada overall. It remains to be seen.

Chris H: You wouldn't be the first one to run your mouth off without facts. I've done the same on a post on medicare budgets.

Difference between us, is... I wasn't laughing at someone else's efforts, citing my own ignorance as a reason for doing so.

The two main parties will never agree to Proportional representation as it reduces their seat count and it removes forever their dream of being the 5 yr dictator. They don't care about marginalized populations, low voter turnout etc, this system works fine . We will usually end up with COKE or PEPSI, both make
you fat, lazy and leave you with a stomach ache.

Ahh JJ rears his head from the class warfare trenches once again. Remeber my earlier advice JJ. Your life is what you make it, sorry to hear it's so sad.

Proportional representation would result in a permanent, one party dictatorship of Jack Layton. He'd call the shots while the Cons or Libs tried to permanently bid for his support. No thanks.

Martin: That's just plain nonsense You really don't believe in democracy do you? Even here in BC almost 60% of provincial voters preferred to change from fptp in the last provincial election!

Proportional representation, means no more strategic voting and permanent cooperation in the house, I can't help those who can't add Martin

You comment is just silly uneducated, If the Con's have 37% and Libs have 30% NDP 20% etc , now take out your calculator and see how many combinations you come up with.

It would also prevent any party from going to extremes.

AKA, STV= Sexually transmitted vote is not proportional representation, its a hand picked unpopular choice that was rammed down our thoughts as the best option, the public rejected this option and the arrogant
committee still picked it.

wstander

No. The numbers indicate that in a FPTP system they don't stand a chance.

FPTP is inherently unfair -- all votes cast for the Liberals in Alberta automatically become lost and irrelevant. The system needs to be replaced.

Ah, Mabellbc, you barely remember Mulroney. That explains, among other things, why you're confusing the BC Liberals (who are anything but) with the federal Liberals. I used to vote Liberal in BC back when it really was a Liberal party (and they never won a seat). Then Gordon Wilson brought it back to respectability at the same time the Social Credit (read: right wing) party went down the toilet. Enter Gordon Campbell, who was looking for a party to lead. The Liberals weren't happy with Wilson and they had more than the two seats (I think it was) that the SoCreds had, so presto, Campbell (who was always a SoCred) magically becomes a Liberal and steals the party.

There's no way I'd ever vote for the BC Liberals, but I still vote for the federal Liberals.

Yes, the corporate elite here and south of the border are attempting to make sure that no matter what card you pick out of the Canadian electoral deck, it will be a neo-con one.

That is the real danger.

Stewart:

19% voter support for Derek Zeisman does support your last post.

If we went proportionally, it would mean that the Candidates history and potential is minimized in voting. You know, just vote for the parties. Last I looked, that's how Ad scam began. Voters didn't look for the conflicts of interest or the best candidates, and voted for color instead.

And, as the NDP would have wound up with 23 more seats than elected one's under popular vote representation, who gets to sit in those seats, and who decides who sits in them? Who gets to explain to the ones in their riding, "we know you voted for this guy or gal, but you have to settle for the runner up because its fair."

Who decides who sits in seats like those who run independently? As much as I like STV in theory, certain examples, certain facts such as Dereks Case stand out unfavorably with STV.

Lynn:
True Lynn, but those in the know have 2 names in mind that could easily form a majority government, especially in the climate of Con failure:

Ken Dryden, and Ralph Goodale.

Stuart:
No disagreement about STV from me. Still think that virtually 60% support(of STV, no matter how bad it is) is indicative of how sick the majority actually is of FPTP.

the brain

All very good questions. May I recommend the following site (I think you'll find it quite enlightening):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Member_Proportional_Representation

the brain

That's why I advocate a mixed -- MMP -- FPTP/PR system. We would still have our constituency MPs or MLA's but we'd also have MPs who were chosen off the party list based on whatever percentage any particular party earned in terms of proportionality.

In my system, you'd have two ballots: one for the constituency MP, and one for the party of choice. Theoretically, you could like your local Conservative candidate and vote for her, but really prefer the NPD as far a party policy is concerned and cast your vote for that party on the second ballot.

G West... I got that from Harper and Layton who were constantly informing me that they were working on behalf of "ordinary Canadians."

ooo, Brain, that gives a whole new meaning to Hockey Night in Canada. For some reason the visual combination of Ken Dryden and Ralph Goodale makes me chuckle... well, Ralph could play goalie. :-)

I actually like the idea that Dryden has a degree in history (can't hurt ;-)) while the Conservatives are presently trying to eradicate ours...our history that is... along with our future.

I have never been a cheerleader for the Liberal team but my choice, if I had to make one, for their Most Valuable Player would definitely be David Orchard.

Lynn:
You've got me chuckling in agreement. ;-)
And, you know me (I think). I'll cheer for one or more parties if I'm given any reasons to and still vote for an alternative party or more importantly the best individual in my riding, whoever is best for Canada, regardless. These days, with my riding, it gives me three potential colors and two individual choices for now.

grub: I'll look into it, chew on it and see if I swallow, spew or lose a dribble or two down my chin from the drool. (Something tells me that if I swallow it whole, it won't be without a funny face, though) Give me a bit of time... thanks for the link.

Frank:
Checked out your post. It is very disturbing. That a nation could take 14% of another nation's lands to "pay for the wall they are building around it" is even more disturbing.
Locally, what is also disturbing is Stockwells voter support for such an individuals stand on such a nation's mandate.

If Harper makes this slim minority work, he'll look brilliant.

If Harper can't hold it together, we go to the polls in 18 months and out country is gone. The Bloc will ensure it is so.

I just gotta say.

For anyone that would even suggest that oil royalties are a bad thing because it slows development - presubably because they decrease incentive.... you must do alot of walking. Otherwise you'd be aware there is plenty of incentive to go around.

mr. harper will have a tougher time keeping his own internal in fighting between the alliance church mps and red neck reforms mps.... cheap entertainment... lose party wing nuts will come out of the wood work.

I felt that one issue somewhat captured the canyon separating the Conservatives from the Libs quite siccintly. On childcare, the Cons stated that they will simply give an annual allowance of $1200 (I believe it will be per child, not per family) and let the parents decide what type of childcare is best for their own situation. Along come the Libs and, flush with success from the National Gun Registry, they feel that the State must provide universal childcare. To me, that really captured the difference between the core philosophies of the parties. Never did check out what the NDP's platform stated about this. Maybe something along the line of no parent should have to work, welfare should kick in at childbirth etc etc.

Harper has a golden opportunity to make his mark early in this mandate. The Libs are leaderless and broke. The NDP are near their historic ceiling in support with little chance of growing their numbers and the Bloc has to be smarting from the pullback in support they experienced. I do not see anything radical coming, but I also do not see and election being forced within the next couple of years.

Parting thought to share with you from Churchill:

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."

'mr. harper will have a tougher time keeping his own internal in fighting between the alliance church mps and red neck reforms mps.... cheap entertainment... lose party wing nuts will come out of the wood work.' this is wishful thinking by the lefties today. gotta love the blue wave!

the brain:

I shook my head at people voting for Belinda. I'm stunned that anyone would vote for Svend. BUT, the stupidest people in Canada have to be the ones voting for Stockwell. That guy is THE most moronic politician in Canada -- humans walking with dinosaurs indeed!

Is there anyone out there who actually voted for him and is willing to (a) admit it and (b) explain why?

blue wave soon to be laughing stock of our new world order...

polictical cartoonist growth industry in canada.!!

On the plus side- we never have to listen to Anne McLellan again.

The next Liberal leader will certainly be a francophone from Quebec. Pierre Pettigrew lost his seat but that has never stopped anyone becoming leader before. I would place my bets on him with Stephan Dion a close second.

Hey non-working man, I have asked before and you have not answered. How is it that you claim to work so hard yet have lots of free time during the business day to spew? Someone else must be actually doing the work. I really don't expect you to answer, much like little elliot in that regard. But still, I am curious.

The brain:

Why would I say anything about oil royalties? It was the teacher salary thing you got wrong. As of Sept. 2005, a category 5 teacher in Edmonton at the top of the scale makes $75,014. In Vancouver, the same teacher makes $63,737. There is only one province that has comparable salaries with teachers from Alberta, and that is Ontario. You need links? Here you go:

http://www.bctf.ca/Publications/ResearchReports/2005ts01/report.html

To suggest I don't have my facts straight is a complete joke. If you think that teachers in Alberta are still underpaid, I may agree with you, but they are nowhere near the bottom in any Canadian context. That "teacher salaries rose by 11.7 percent above inflation between 1996/97 and 2002/03" is so unlike anything that has happened outside Alberta and Ontario, I find it hard to believe that you would even consider calling Alberta teachers "the bottom of the totem pole."

I will continue to laugh at people, like you, who post outrageous, untrue things on The Tyee. That you so rigorously defended your ignorance gave me an extra chuckle. Thanks.

wally, only one more sleep.

I should not even bother to reply but I stay in my office from 1:00pm to 3:00pm every day to answer phone calls. Anybody who needs to call me knows those are my office hours. That way I do not need to be driving and fumbling with a pen, paper, cell and a PDA at the same time, which is a hazard to everyone involved. If I have some free time, that is when I post here, mostly for the comedy effect of baiting people like you, wally.

I am self employed and set my own hours. I am usually out of bed at 6:00 am and at a job site meeting by 7:00. I try to get home at 8:30 to walk my boys to school and I rarely miss a day. Then it is off to meetings, architects, City Hall or wherever my secretary (who doubles as my wife) tells me I must appear.

From 1:00-3:00 I am at my buisness office. I get my boys and walk them home and from 4:00-6:00 I am back to job sites. I grab a bite and then from 7:00 to whenever I finish I do admin work.

It is a long day but I love what I do. No day is ever the same and now and again, I disappear to a favourite spot like Ambelside with a cheesy novel.

I would not and could not ever punch a clock but to each his own.

Working Man: But, at what part of the day did you find out that Ed Broadbent was running in yesterday's election? Must have been when you were sleeping ... er ... I mean working between 1 and 3.

The View from the South End of Gabriola Island

On the surface of it, the election makes perfect fodder for Air Farce. I mean how Canadian of us: the Cons won, but not really; the Liberals got spanked, but not screwed; the Bloc rules, but kinda lost; the Greens once again got nowhere, but got lots of publicity and were even able to knock out a few NDPers - without bearing responsibility for the victory of the Anti-greens, as happened in BC last time out. (Recall, when Tyee crunched the numbers, the Greens gave Gordon Campbell the 5 seats that gained him the premiership and gave BC one of the most anti-environment regimes in the country, and that’s going some.)
Very Canadian.
But underneath, it was a pretty sad affair.
Two things stand out for me. Despite the most fertile situation it is likely to see for decades, the NDP only raised its popular vote a couple of points over last time around, when it was only a little ahead of debacle. The 10 new seats mask the fact that, even when the alternatives are a disgraced Liberal and a sociopathic Conservative, few people see worth in the NDP. Some of that isn’t the Party’s fault, but some of it is, and I despair that it will get addressed in the face of Jack’s "big", though thoroughly pyrrhic, victory.
But worse than that is - we can’t look down out noses at the Yanks and say, “We’d never elect someone like George Bush,” because we have. More fodder for the comics. But, again, underneath the irony, we have skated ourselves onto thin ice. It hasn’t cracked yet, but it could. Germany, prior to the ascension of the National Socialists, had been one of the most liberal societies for over half a century – certainly, in an era of general anti-semitism, Germany was one of the least repressive nations in its treatment of Jews. It didn’t take long to turn that around. Are we smarter than the Germans? Or for that matter, the Americans? We like to say we are nicer, but a lot of nice Americans voted for Bush. And now a lot of nice Canadians have voted for his like here too.
And, in one last herald of gathering darkness, Michael Ignatieff, the silver-tongued, media-savvy apologist for both Gulf Wars, won his seat handily and is certainly in the running for the Liberal leadership. Should he win, between the Cons and the Liberals, Canadian kids will certainly be off killing brown kids in the Yanks’ next imperial adventure and, fair is fair, the brown kids will kill them back.
OK, comrades, back to work.

I got an idea for the next leader of the Lib, Ralph Klein. A true liberal.

I admit I was wrong about old Eddie running this time around. He ran in 2004.

I am in my office from 1:00 to 3:00 pm. I rarely finish my day's work until 9:00 but I can do a lot from my home office. Properly managed technology has really eased things compared to say, ten years ago.

Geez, Gabriola swim back.
I work less than the working man. Who could keep up with this human dynamo?
Working Man is The Brain.
Why do the big cities want us to join them if they don't want to join us ?
They are the minority, thank you.

http://www.stv.govt.nz/

The above link explains STV better than me. I like it better than PR because you still vote for people, not parties. So the electorate decides who sits in those seats, not party brass.

Future Canada.

Watch Michael Ignatieff for Liberal leader. He is highly educated, a powerful writer and speaker, has extensive television and interviewing experience, speaks French, and is an expert in world politics and government. He could revitalize the Liberal Party.

According to some analysts, there may be no next Liberal government. Their political arena would have the NDP and the Conservatives as opposing parties similar to the Tories versus Labour, in Britain, one fractionally right, and the other fractionally left of center, politically speaking. The Liberals would just dissipate, like the middle class.

(Hint:If you are 'task oriented' just stop here.)

Wallace:
"Working man" is an employer, of happy non-union workers. They are overpaid (more than union construction wages) and he is the light of their lives. They even call him by his first name! Ambleside (if misspelled "Ambelside") where he reads his novels is indeed a lovely spot, in West Vancouver, on the shore. The suggestion that those who "punch a clock" had a choice, yet somehow decided not to avail of the freedom of working just when they felt like it ("to each his own") indicates how far from an employee's reality he operates. I can't see how "baiting" people, you or anyone else, contributes in any way to an exchange of ideas on the political article above.

As for the elementary level essay "My Day" by "Working Man", his tedious working day and variations thereof, have already appeared in answer to numerous other debates, including the comment section on teacher action, back in October, 2005.

Oldfolk:

Well written, interesting, post. I don't agree with all of it, but that's fine. Ignatieff is enigmatic isn't he? Great insight, yet condones war. Maybe the Liberals will disappear. Perhaps too much of his fine education was influenced by U.S. and British policy. The future will surely judge our era as barbaric, as we still think that killing people is a rational way to make a decision. Like you, I hope Canada will be able to stay out of war, but unfortunately, we get what we vote for, not what we hope for. Harper will probably sell us to the U.S. before that choice comes up! - oil, water, and all.

As for "nice" Americans electing the war mongering Bush gang, and "nice" Canadians voting for the Bush lacky, Harper, unfortunately .... "nice" and "stupid" are not mutually exclusive.

When I lived on qUEEN WEST,I'd brew my beer along with Jack Layton and others at the Brewmasters there. That plus the fact that, like myself, he was biking everywhere gave him my vote - tip top guy. WIth a minority sitaution again, he's the man to get some good things passed. Even Harper will need him.. that is when he doesn't need the Block??

Frank:

Frank, what's your opposition to MMP systems which give us a bit of both FPTP and PR? MMP certainly has one advantage (not the reason I prefer it); it's esier to explain to those stuck on FPTP than STV will ever be.

Stuart - You're funny. "Bad karma"...?

Reasoned criticism of affairs in Haiti are fine. Activist MPs, investigative journalists, whistleblowers, missionaries, NGOs, any one else in situ on the grount there...bring them on - they all have a contribution to make in showing us the truth about Haiti. I welcome it.

But not that camera-hogging opportunist. You should be objective enough to realize that his flagrant grand-standing during past international escapades, and his high-decibel flatulence meant to approximate "moral outrage" with every indignant over-the-top pronouncement make him a liability to any legitimate cause he chooses to hitch his wagon to.

Incidentally, why didn't they run Kennedy Stewart again in Vancouver-Centre. Anyone know? Was is just a case of the reliable 'Steady Eddy' getting displaced by the celebrity candidate...? I'm curious what the story is (was).

grub, I'm not opposed to MMP, just prefer STV. And yes, MMP is easier to explain.

If the ballot had been MMP vs FPTP I would have voted MMP.

Oh I agree, I'm glad he was defeated and it wasn't just for the ring thing. If he ran a good constituency office then great but his one-man dramatics, which embarrassed the Blaikie-Broadbent side of the party more often than not, were a pain in the a**

Svend should have his own left-wing party since he feels he shouldn't have to ask Blaikie or McDonough what they think before he runs off and jumps in front of a camera.

The Cons are full of right-wing versions of Svend, one reason I'm looking forward to Foreign Minister Day. He's Svend with power.

nightbloom

I know you have no love for Svend but think of the bigger picture, at least he is willing to talk about it publicly(its not still Canada's dark little secret) Lets face it , no politician , media outlet ,not Evan
the CBC will talk about Haiti even though everyone in government knows about it. 99 out of 100 Canadians know nothing about Haiti, public outrage would end that situation, Svend if he was elected under a minority gov would be able to impact public opinion.

When people want change I am sorry nighbloom, I don't care if you like or dislike the way they go about it,at least their going about it, unlike 90% of other MP's Svend actually expects to use his position to impact
change.

So stop insulting those willing to talk about issues, change happens on many fronts and from many directions,

Side note, Was in buying some groceries last weekend and the Spanish owner from Columbia said he liked Svend and wished he was still running in Burnaby, he said that Svend helped him with some family issues regarding refugee claims.

Stuart - Yup, I said a while ago that Svend has been widely hailed in the past as a diligent respondent to his contituents' concerns. He's a workaholic in that respect. As always, credit where credit's due.

You & I disagree on whether Svend's tactics are a suitable cure for popular apathy on a given issue. Maybe you're right: the radical who kicks loud & hard at the pendulum is the one who makes a genuine impact on its trajectory.

But what if he can't stop kicking loud & hard at the pendulum for its own sake? Whose cause is he aiding?

I would argue that Svend's true talent has been to insert himself in the limelight at the critical moment when the pendulum was already in a turning motion. He only appears to be the catalyst. A few examples:

Sue Rodriguez would have undertaken her course of action with or without Svend. the Right-to-Die people were already advocating on her behalf for some time. Svend simply stole the show and claimed the role of "spokesperson" towards the end of Sue's long battle (which had been waging privately long before she took it to the media). I found his cosetting treatment of a by-then-paralyzed Rodriguez to be deeply unsettling, as was his de rigueur tearful press conference once Rodriguez was euthanized (displacing & upstaging Rodriquez' own family). I was not impressed.

Ditto on his ill-conceived parade through Baghdad (wearing a caftan like a modern-day Lawrence of Arabia) prior to the first Gulf War, or more recently his deeply inflammatory comments in Israel (and his ongoing tiff with B'nai B'rith. Or his hypcritical martyrdom for envrironmental causes (in which he deliberately and gleefully had himself arrested before the television cameras) and his subsequent evasion of justice (which genuinely undermined the credibility of our justice system in its treatment of the political class).

So what cause is he supporting - any cause? Can he be a credible spokesman for all causes all at once?

No, he clearly can't.

So Stuart - the issues are valid issues. The self-annointed spokesman is not. At this point, he can best help his causes by stepping back from them and becoming a bit more continent & restrained in his public escapades.

Incidentally, if the Left needs an icon of individualist socialist activism by an elected member of a federal legislative assembly, it should go for gold:

I propose Bismarck's nemesis: Eduard Lasker.

I agree to disagree nightbloom

I like Svend and his actions usually match his words(rare quality) , he seems to care and maybe he needs better PR people but in general who cares, this is the problem with many Canadians especially those of prominence, their afraid to act or speak, you can accuse him of many deeds but one is not being
afraid to speak, sometimes you just have to call it like you see it, how many more decades are we going to wait for the right person to express injustice the right non offensive Canadian way.

Sometimes one cannot speak at all if their to afraid to offend anyone, sometimes the truth is going to offend people, but the truth is like fire that spreads and for that I admire Svend, when a few citizens get some courage and start to talk anything can happen. I was at a campaign meeting with Svend and
Hedy and Svend seemed very genuine about the issues of the riding, he seemed really angry about poverty and homelessness etc, I think he would have served the area well. With Hedy I see more status quo

geeze...I didn't know that strategic voting made me look

What do you meen fickle BC. Do you think we should simply roll over and vote in a bunch of harper clones? Forget it. I have voted for the same party for over 40 years and did so again this time. I vote on the party principals not who is promising to give me stuff I will never get. If Haprer got to keep his promises he would have to rob a bunch of banks, or do like Lying Brain and run a massive defecit. We can be thankful that enough folks decided to let Martin go away but not let this new gang, salivating at the gate come in and trash the place. No Iraq adventure, no more troops as cannon fodder in other places George wants to punish for something or other. If Harper gets a bit carrie away he will be cut off at the knees.

nightbloom, I usually do not agree with you on much but when it comes to Svend, you hit the nail right on the head. Svend never did anything without the tv cameras in close proximity. Voters in Vancouver Centre are a pretty saavy bunch and we sent Svend a pretty strong message.

A final (I hope) Svendism is when he crashed Hedy Fry's interview with Harvey Oberfeld. The look on her face was of pure rage but, inlike Svendy-poo, she kept her composure.

Geeze...all That Hunting And Pecking...just To Have A Page Disappear...

Kinda Like Politics.........eh?

Musta Touched(voted) The Wrong Button(party)

Another interesting aside to the campaign was Buzz tossing his labour roots aside and rather blatently gunning for a seat in the Liberal Senate. Right as thousands of his flock are being turfed by Ford, he is up there glad handing with Pauly and crapping on poor old Jack. Rather strange time to be making political statements when your union is clearly about to be in crisis mode.

I hope that the laid off Ford workers had the decency to vote Liberal to help Buzz get the appointment after he had done so much for them.

You know, having lived and worked in 5 provinces -- Quebec, Ontario, New Brunswick, Alberta, and now B.C. -- I have to say it's time BC stopped congratulating itself on being different. or Unique. Or Cascadian.

BC comes across like a defiant 15-year old rebelling against a hardworking, nice, middle-class familiy.

We're Canadians, folks, and the sooner we participate in our country, the sooner we'll be allowed the keys to the car.

With apologies in advance if this doesn't sound sincere wrightwords....

What are you talking about? How do we participate?

to understandme

Ya same thing happened to me - too many words- maybe they just weren't the ones someone wanted to hear.

wrightwords

People with your attitude and constant lack of tolerance and respect for other opinions are exactly one of the reasons I did NOT vote Conservative. I really don't want people who stamp their feet and insult others and threat Western Alienation or better yet separation if the vote does go their way to be in charge of running a great country like Canada. You way you've lived in five provinces - hopefully its time for another move - maybe south?

Fickle? More like bold. The implication here being that B.C. should've voted like the rest of the country and strengthened what will inevitably be an inept (Conservative) government. What an exciting article. Tell me, I'm new here and from Ontario; has Rabble ALWAYS been this anti-NDP and pro-Green and Conservative? Help me out.

Correction: in the above comment I meant to say "The Tyee" instead of "Rabble"

how about 'idiotic british columbia'. we finally get a chance for some power and we elect 10 whining socialists.

Buzz also did that wonderful song and dance about stopping auto imports from Japan and Korea until they start importing cars from GM and Ford.

One big problem, Buzzie-boy. I have been to both countries and there is not a single model made by either Ford or GM that would sell in Korea or Japan. The tax laws in both countries make owning a car with engine displacement of more than 1.5 litres extremely expensive that none of the "American" make a model with an engine that small.

The Japanese and Koreans know their markets well. Buzz is clueless.

From main article: "So you can forget what they say back east about our West Coast latte-loving tendencies. After Monday night, no one should ever call us trendy."

C'mon, Tom. Latte-loving is a trend that spread from here to the East, not the other way around. Trendy indeed. BC's never been a follower. Deal is we've been hornswoggled before by right-wingers who've had their chrome polished and fingers manicured, and we're getting tired of being fooled. We've always been trend-SETTERS politically, not the other way around; the political realizations now spreading in other parts of Canada had their genesis back in '83 here in BC, and in the time since (2001-02 particularly).

Trendy my ass. This has always been a province of political mavericks, and of maverick voters.

Cratez, much of what you read here isn't anti anything but rather a good whine by those who feel ignored or something.

Of course we have our more than fair share of
neo-cons. Tyee, unlike most right-wing webbers allows all opinions.

You'll also notice a fair amount of what I call independant leftists who apparently think the NDP is in bed with the corporate sector, but other than them calling everybody sellouts and Nazi, I don't give them a lot of credence.

neo-con (n)

"a label attatched to any person who has not attained the holy-grail of NDPdom, which is 83% of the Canadian voting population."

I am so mislead. Please help me.

Allan:
The NDP is in bed with the corporate sector. Big labour can't function without big business.

Very true, Mike. No big business, no big unions.

I might add that the government is by far the biggest business in Canada, which is why the NDP has become the lap-dog of the public sector unions.

Michael Clift and the gnit who piggybacked on his posting above, I think Buzz Hargrove has pretty much disproven your theory.

Seems to me he was flogging the party in the penalty box.

Get real and stay with the times fellow.

Big Conservatives and big Liberals cannot function without big business.

Non Working Man, what are you doing here so early?

Please answer because your presence here contradicts your claim the other day.

Lots of spare time. Lose another contract or something?

Chris H:

You're just not getting it. You can spout off all you want with links and charts about category 5 teachers, but the reason, as I've already provided why Alta teachers are earn the most in this counry, is because they are the oldest, or most experienced, and teaching in areas of post secondary education in greater numbers than the norm.

Your charts in your links are biased to this effect. Table one provides Cat. 5 teachers with 17 years experience, but doesn't take into account, what area's of teaching they are in. This makes a huge difference in salaries. The tables you've also provided in your links doesn't show how Canada or BC stacks up to the other provinces. Where your tables are weakest, is in not providing where rookie teachers salaries begin, or what their incremental increases are, year over year in public schools. Look at table 2 one more time, and you'll see the problem with your information.

The bottom line, is that the information you are quoting is purposely misrepresenting specific facts to get a better deal for teachers with this provincial government. The facts of what the rest of the country pays in each province to first year teachers, teachers with technical area's of expertise, and teachers with greater experience should take precident over biased links. My guess is that statistics Canada would be the best place to start.

It is, however, unfortunately to bad that you have already indicated that you don't care about teachers salaries in another post of insults once again in another thread. I suggest you get some manners and grow up.

Allan:

I'm not judging it. I'm just pointing out a fact.

The NDP is in bed with unions and unions cannot exist without big business.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't know. I'm not a member of the NDP nor a unionized employee. I did vote for the NDP last week though.

the ndp would be much more credible if they were more likely to admit openly they were in bed with the unions, and vice-versa. the bctf was shameless in it's denial of supporting the ndp in the last provincial election. 'we're not supporting any party, we're just campaigning against the liberals'. what a bloody insult to anyone with half a brain. but then again, most of their followers may fall short on that one.

Yo elliot...chill man!!!
What do you got against unions anyhow?
Their primary function is simply to protect workers from unscrupulous exploitation by greedy robber-barons/walton-siblings!

Like most folks I have deja vu moments from time to time. I had one a moment ago when reading the latest turd from little elliot. The little one writes:

"what a bloody insult to anyone with half a brain. but then again, most of their followers may fall short on that one."

I am reminded of several folks I have met over the years. Many of you may remember meeting the type; a guy who was always raging about knowing his wife was playing around on him. Of course, it was he that was playing around but attempted to deflect by accusing the other. Never worked as everyone who knew the jerk knew of his pathetic attempt at transference.

My point is this: little elliot rages that anyone who understands that the BCTF campaigned against the Liberals must have half a brain. little elliot is clearly referring to the size of his own cranium on this matter and trying to deflect attention away from his shortcomings.

Of course, it may be simpler than that: little elliot may have half a brain on all matters, not just the BCTF issue.

The brain:

You are completely wrong. Salary grids do not lie and you have no idea how teachers are paid.
The salary for a beginning teacher in Vancouver (step 1 on the chart - can you not read?) is $42,707. The salary for a beginning teacher in Edmonton is $48, 874. Teachers are paid by the level of their education, and their years of teaching experience. Almost all teachers in BC, Ontario, and Alberta are category 5 (a Bachelor's degree and one year of teacher college). It doesn't matter what subject they teach. The grade 12 Math teacher is paid the same as the grade 8 PE teacher if they have the same level of education and same number of years teaching experience.

The average age of teachers in Vancouver is way over 50. I'd be shocked if Alberta's was older since Alberta is growing quickly and they are hiring new teachers, mostly younger, much quicker than Vancouver, where the student population has actually declined.

You have taken a response from the teacher's union in Alberta in response to talking points from the Alberta government that is now dated. How can salary grids be biased, but your link not be? Where are the stats to back up their claims?

I am a teacher in BC and am very interested in teacher salaries. Simply put, if I moved to Alberta I would get a large salary increase. The reason the BCTF didn't include other provinces in the comparison was that the other provinces are around BC's salary or lower.

Should Alberta teachers get salary increases? Sure they should! But, they are without a doubt, among the highest paid teachers in Canada.

Oh, and look ... the same chart on slaries for Edmonton teachers can be found in the Edmonton teachers collective agreement:

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/Salary+and+Benefit/Collective+Bargaining/Collective+Agreements/Edmonton+School+District+No+7+%282003+-+2006%29.htm

Most of the teachers in Edmonton are in their middle column (5 years of college - ie. category 5). Teachers with Masters degrees in Vancouver are paid far less than those with just bachelor degrees and one year teacher college.

and how much more would they have to pay you to live in edmonton? ever lived through a winter there chris? apples and oranges chris.

wally-boy; yet another useless long-winded soliloquuy? at least you're consistent. what a wally!

Dear Chris H; How many oranges did it take to make that nice apple pie you made there?

If you think beginning teachers in BC make $42,000 you have a serious problem with your grid.

Beginning teachers in BC make about four shifts a month, except in flu season.

Hardly any get anyplace near your grid for several years, during which they work relief, posting their 'availability' with several school boards and sitting by their phones from 5:30 until 9 every morning hoping to add a few hours to their CV so they may someday get hired full time.

poor darlings.

One last thought on the results of the federal election here in BC, and for that matter the results of the Vancouver municipal election. They both should give the BC provincial Liberals an enormous boost in confidence. The general rule is that federal election results in BC reflect either an endorsement for or retribution against the standing provincial government. The Reform sweep a couple of elections back was plenty of proof of this as it was generally a slap in the face of Glen Clark's NPD rather than a hearty welcome to Preston Manning.

This election, although the number of seats for the Cons went down, their share of the popular vote was marginally up. Similarly, the NPA win in Vancouver was an endorsement to the provincial right. And, please no lame excuses for Jim Green vs James Green.

As I said, Gordon Campbell and the BC Libs should read these results and realize that the majority of British Columbians agree with what they are doing.

Bailey:

You are absolutely correct. A beginning teacher with a contract makes that amount of money, but a TOC, where the majority of teachers start, makes far, far less. The average annual TOC salary in BC is $12,073. TOC work counts as years of experience for when they do get their contract (it is different than seniority) so they won't necessarily have to start at the first step when they do get a contract.

It will be much, much harder to get a regular teaching position at a school right out of university because TOCs will now get seniority when getting paid on scale. That was a huge win for TOCs across BC that only happened because of the teacher strike in October.

Vancouver is in the process of hiring TOCs again as there are days that the district runs out of them. It is different in every district, but Vancouver TOCs are getting much more than 4 days/month.

chris h; you mean the ILLEGAL teacher's work stoppage?

Elliot:

Whether it was legal or illegal does not make it a strike. Many strikes, in the past and present, here in Canada or elsewhere, are or where deemed illegal by some court. The very first teacher's strike in the Commonwealth occurred in Victoria, BC and was illegal. The teachers there hadn't been paid for two years. Did teachers go on strike that was illegal by provincial legislation that was declared illegal by the International Labour Organization? Yes.

'The teachers there hadn't been paid for two years.' and you're comparing them to this lot? give me a break chris. teachers are doing just fine in this province, and no amount of crybaby whining is going to convince the rest of b.c. that they aren't. that ILLEGAL work stoppage was about politics, pure and simple, and the leadersip of the bctf should be ashamed of themselves for pretending otherwise.

Elliot:

"and how much more would they have to pay you to live in edmonton? ever lived through a winter there chris? apples and oranges chris."

It is cheaper to live in Edmonton than Vancouver, so you are right, it is sort of like matching apples with oranges. That makes the Edmonton salaries even larger in comparison! Want proof?

Statistics Canada (2005). The consumer price index, Catalogue no. 62-001-XIB.

what an ignorant response. you're sounding like wallace now. nice attempt at spin though. do you work for jinny?

as a union member many years, teachers are always sucking the thumb.... if its so bad QUIT....

maybe you need a new career,less stressfull????

teachers love to bitch and whine. it's the first thing they teach their local reps. somehow bctf types always think someone owes them something.

Hey
ALL union types feel entitled to more, and whine when some lucky & skilled person actually makes it...they feel entitled to their cake just because they can stomach a union job. Unions want it all. At "0" risk. With benefits. And a clause to accomodate. And a pension. Pro D days, give me a break. Try beating a teacher to the golf course on a weekday. Try to have more free time. Try to have a pension 1/2 equal to theirs. And oh, they are not the only community coaches either so bite me unionites.

juskatladude got it right. good comments I think, didn't look at it that way, makes sense.