Just another example of corporate dictatorship instead of the people running government.

Ah, poor Samwise, being mayor aint as easy as it seems. Those pesky councillors get in the way and everything. And those d*** bicycle people, gave you a real grilling didn't they, got you so scared, that you perverted democracy, so you wouldn't ask questions. Poor baby and all this in the first weeks of your mayoralship.

God, what will you do when the DoRavRight people serve you with papers, ah yes the real fun will begin!

Come on folks, this is simply the natural order of things in Vancouver. The one ward system is back in place and the west side will get its way on every issue. You really did not expect otherwise, did you? South East False Creek will not include the poor, the beemers will continue to sweep into the city from Point Grey and those who attend council meetings will be restricted in the NPA controlled democracy model. Wait for the rest.

Why do I get the feeling that Sullivan is destined to be Vancouver's own Mel Lastman?

The idea to turn road lanes into bike lanes on Burrard Street bridge was totally loony. The only reason to do so was to avoid spending money to fix the problem with the sidewalks. Far better that they fix the sidewalks properly, rather than spend a big chunk of money to temporarily avoid fixing the real problem.

Amen, to cranks comments. I went to the meeting not because Vision “rallied” me (I only voted for one of the Vision candidates), but because I care about the future of this city.

To me it is pure hypocrisy for the NPA to vote in favor of spending $15-25 million on a sidewalk that most people did not want and is not necessary. And then vote against spending $35-50 million on affordable housing which is desperately needed.

I don’t understand this comment. There is on need to fix the sidewalk if it is only being used by pedestrians. The narrow side walk is only a safety issue because the city forces the growing cycling population to share it with pedestrians. If the cyclists were given the traffic lanes there would be no need to fix the sidewalk.

A good friend of mine has the misfortune of living on the west side and not being a thoroughgoing pr!ck. He says day to day life is a nightmare being surrounded by the elitist, heartless, neoconservative robots that now populate much of vancouver. (but much more so in affluent areas ofcourse)
If that city is somehow deemed the worlds "most liveable" I feel both shame and grave concern for humanity.

Sam needs to go back to school and take a class on the democratic process.

It is so annoying to have such a stupid comment made. Even if the neo-cons use it to thwart our democracy. I'm getting tired of these types having any say in my city, my province and my country.

Also, he hasn't any mandate. Sounds a lot like Bush's capital comment. Remember? I've just been given a lot of capital and I'm going to spend it?

I don't have any faith this guy won't find himself in real trouble and have to resign. Who's he going to cause suffering before then? I guess anyone who thinks peace, order and good gov't is the Canadian way.

The more I hear of his behaviour, the more I want his part in the James Green affair investigated. If he thinks he has such a huge mandate that he can ignore most of the citizens of Vancouver, then for the benefit of Vancouver requires the truth come out about just how big that madate really is.

...who's suffering will he cause before then...

Oh, would that we have some officials who actually cared about our city.

jesterjogger, why doesn't your friend move to the lower east side. I'm sure he would be more comfortable there.
As far as closing two lanes on the Burrard Bridge for the exclusive use of cyclists, what a smart move by NPA to ditch that dumb, dumb, dumb idea.

"what a smart move by NPA to ditch that dumb, dumb, dumb idea."

Why is it a dumb idea Ron? For once, outline some valid reasons for your p.o.v.

Betcha can't!

Rob
If you compare those sidewalks to most bridges in the lower mainland, you will find them equal or wider than the others. Did you ever ride the Lions Gate before they changed them? Those were narrow.

Next time you walk that bridge, observe the cracks in the concrete railings exposing the rebar. Once the rebar is exposed to air it begins to rust, the rust swells the rebar cracking the concrete, exposing more rebar, etc,etc. According to one of the engineers I was talking to there are other problems underneath that are not visible to the public.

Bridges are not static things. They heave, swell, shrink, twist and do other nifty things 24 hrs a day 365 days a year. Most bridge engineers treat bridges as if they personalities, and they really seem to do. Eventually various parts of the bridge wear out and need replacing. If you wait to long the cost just go up. I seem to remember that the council was going to spend 5 million building the bike lanes (even if it is right, it seems awfully high to me). Why spend that sort of money on a Band-Aid fix when you will have to fix the sidewalks anyways?

One of the wiggles in this is that the bridge was declared a heritage structure and that will put constraints on the options that the engineers can use.

Of course there was the wonderful idea of building a bike bridge under the main span. The city did a study and the proposed lift bridge would have to be opened 90 times a day to allow vessel to pass and manned 24 hrs a day.

Very well put RRGirl. Elections are not public consultations. Sullivan further shows his ignornance of public service when he completely ignored council process. He's taking a page out of campbells book and axing everything the previous gov't has done. Truely shameful!

The issues at hand were part of the debate during the election. The NPA won a majority on Council, School Board and Parks Board, and should govern accordingly. The people voted for the things in the platform, and that including axing the stupid proposals to block the lanes on the Burrard Bridge, and to make the south False Creek development financially viable.

The people get to judge how the NPA has done in three years. I'm glad they've started implementing the platform ideas that they were elected on.

Yes, I did. They were also a safety issue which needed to be addressed. And they were.

But Lions Gate is not a fair comparison.

Lions Gate does not have the same cyclist volumne that Burrard bridge does. Also, there is not an under-capacity bridge only a few blocks away (Granville) like there is with Burrard.

If the sidewalk does need repair it will surely be cheaper than expansion and removing the pinch points. And it won't destroy the heritage aspects of the bridge.

You go Sam . .. keep up the great work, get the budget back under control, get the criminals off the streets and make this city very unfriendly towards the legions of freeloaders who were attracted here under the previous regimes soft-on-crime/free-drugs-for all policies.

Every misfit, anarchist and socialist dreamweaver wanted to come here when COPE ruled the roost, attracted by the moonbat ideas that infected city hall. No wonder the homeless rate is so high - these are people who believe society OWES them a living, a house and free drugs.

You go Sam, us ordinary ratepayers think you are doing just fine. That's why democracy made you the mayor.

Easy Stump, because bikes will make it difficult to cross the bridge without getting into a traffic jam.
Because there are more cars than bikes.
Because car owners pay a licencing fee.
Because bikes don't have a licence plate.
Because bikers are slow.
Because bikes aren't insured.
Is there anything good about this dumb idea ?
It's that simple.

The Vision councillors did a great job of speaking to the issues, however, they had little or no roll in rallying support for the trial. They did do a great job of getting it deferred until Tuesday which gave others the opportunity to rally support.

Regarding the trial being a looney idea, just what research is that based on? There is plenty of evidence to suggest that removing lanes of traffic has little or no long term effects on congestion. Just look at Cambie Street where 3 and soon four lanes will be closed. No problems there to speak of after the first week and a half.

For a formal study, check out:
http://www.cts.ucl.ac.uk/tsu/disapp.pdf

Summary

Reallocating roadspace from general traffic, to improve conditions for pedestrians or cyclists or buses or on-street light rail or other high-occupancy vehicles, is often predicted to cause major traffic problems on neighbouring streets. This paper reports on two phases of research, resulting in the examination of over 70 case studies of roadspace reallocation from eleven countries, and the collation of opinions from over 200 transport professionals worldwide. The findings suggest that predictions of traffic problems are often unnecessarily alarmist, and that, given appropriate local circumstances, significant reductions in overall traffic levels can occur, with people making a far wider range of behavioural responses than has traditionally been assumed. Follow-up workhas also highlighted the importance of managing how schemes are perceived by the public and reported in the media, with various lessons for avoiding problems. Finally, the findings highlight that well-designed schemes to reallocate roadspace can often contribute to a multiplicity of different policy aims and objectives.

Dear Fred & Ethel,

Did Democracy really make Sam Sullivan the mayor or did James Green?

How exactly is city council responsible for being soft-on-crime? Last I checked, the court systems were responsible for sentencing criminals - not city council.

Maybe the reason the homeless rate is high is because mentally ill people with no treatment/housing options have no other choice but to live on the street.

Maybe you should get down off your high-horse and have some compassion for others instead of just bitching all the time.

Maybe if you thought about others you wouldn't be such a miserable old crust.

Merry Christmas and may the season bring you compassion or else a big glass of shut the hell up.

fred n ethel
I'll wager you self-righteous nimby's haven't done an honest days work in your whole life.
Furthermore I bet you wouldn't hesitate to let someone starve or freeze to death right outside your front door. (thats actually happening right now if you care to look)
Tell me where all the great jobs in the supposed "booming/great guns" bc economy are?
I see an ever decreasing, elitist minority hoarding wealth while systematically denying

others, who aren't connected in their sinister network, the most rudimentary opportunities for a decent standard of living.
Gordo, and his union busting corporate overlords, should look to South America to see the future and their own demise.
If I want to work hard, for a fair wage in decent conditions, like the vast majority of unemployed I don't need to be demonized by slave-masters and greedy robber-barons. Those whose grotesque wealth has been purchased by my labor and the rape of our common resources in which their grossly disproportionate "share" is a mockery of any truly enlightened society.

Hey Ron

Cars a licenced because they can and are dangerous and deadly devices. Over 20 pedestrians and motorists have been killed this year so far by automobiles. Cyclists are more of a danger to themselves than others, that is why there is no need to licence them.

There are way more bicycles than cars in the world, probably almost as many in Vancouver. The problem is that people do not feel safe using them because of unsafe facilities such as the Burrard Bridge. Even still, 2000-3000 people cycle the Bridge sidewalks.

In Vancouver, streets, bikeways, bridges etc. are mostly paid through property taxes so cyclists pay the same as motorists.

In addition, bicycles have no greenhouse gas emmissions so they don't contribute to climate change.

I used to have to commute from N. Van to Sea Island. I have seen how much vehicle traffic crosses the bridge, if you close the lanes, you will force people to either use another route (likely longer) or cross at a reduced speed and increase congestion. If people change their habits, it will likely cause other social effects like reducing the inflow for businesses in a particular area. Traffic “calming” does the same thing, justs moves the problem from one place to another. The problem with using European cities as examples is that they were original built/designed in an era prior to mass public private transport and also have stronger public transit systems and a complete different “social layout” than North American cities. NA Cities generally tend to be more opened up and also to contain major routes that transect through the city to points beyond (Hwy 99, from the US to Lilioot in this case)

I also don’t think there is a enough bike traffic to justify 2 lanes for them.

The only poll on the lane reallocation issue I am aware of showed that 50% of people in Vancouver supported the lane reallocation. The other 50% were either neutral or opposed the idea. So less than 50% opposed the idea. Clearly not a mandate.

And even among the minority that opposed the idea I found that many were not aware of basic facts like:
- The lane reallocation was only a TRIAL and not necessarily permanent.
- The alternative would cost $15-25 million
- Car trips across Burrard and Granville Bridges haven’t increased in 10 years while bicycle trips had shown a significant increase
- The Granville Bridge was underutilized and traffic could be easily diverted there.

Stumblin' Sam's decision to kill the bike lane and social housing aspects of the athletes village future, certainly sends a message about Olympic intentions, doesn't it?

I don't live in Vancouver so wasn't given a chance to vote on whether BC should stage the games in 2010 (hey, I'll be helping to pay off it's debt long afterwards though), but wasn't at least a part of that little play on democracy a promise that there would be benefits like social housing created as legacies.

I'll bet someone could even find something in writing that could be dropped under John Furlong's nose long enough for him to comment about it.

Of course, Furlong would likely respond through the Globe's Gary Mason, who of recent has been acting like a PR flack for Furlong&Co. as he tries to explain how his planning team wasn't allowed to use 2010 construction costs when projecting its building budget.

Duh? And why wasn't this explained at the time of the bid rather than the song and dance we got about affordability and confidence in the numbers blah, blah, bla?

I'd urge Mason to get back into his old rink-rat duds and stick to basics, but I fear the new higher scoring NHL hockey system would leave him handicapped pretty fast.

Were those promises by the Olympic cheerleaders outright lies or have they become works in progress since their friend Sam took over?

Maybe, it's just one more review process or is that revision process Sam is intent on implementing.

And what's the message the international media gets when it hears that cyclists in the next great world-class althletics community have just been chased off the street by friends of the internal combustion engine.

Could someone please seek out James Green and see if the 5,000 or so who voted for him and thus ensured Sullivan's election, meant their votes to be a mandate for Sullivan's recent axings as the mayor claims?

commentor: jesterjogger
posted: 46 Minutes Ago
fred n ethel
I'll wager you self-righteous nimby's haven't done an honest days work in your whole life.

Hey bud, you are 100% correct. I have done thousands of them, many, many, thousands. Worked really hard all my life. No silver spoon here dude,

Look in a mirror some day and decide to get you lif egoing instead of being angry at the success of others

Thanx Ron. You confirmed my suspicions. You don't know what you're talking about, you can't extrapolate to the future, and you are ill-equipped to debate the issue because you don't understand how traffic demand management works. No point in debating you in other words.

"I also don’t think there is a enough bike traffic to justify 2 lanes for them."

That's funny! I don't think there's enough car traffic to justify six lanes for them.

I am not envious of others sucess especially if it has been earned.
If you have done so then I commend you.
What I will not tolerate is my own hard work and intellect (for what it's worth) being robbed from me to line someone elses pocket.
I will not tolerate brutal "free-market" darwinism for the the working poor and ever diminishing middle-class whilst the corrupt corporate elite and their politician puppets live a life of artificially constructed luxury.
Socialization of risk and cost with privatization of profit. That system, so visible and prevalent in our society especially in vancouver, will be eradicated.

Lets extrapolate the future then. I'm sure you are familiar with demographics.
The baby boomers are now becoming a majority of the adult population.
They drive cars.
There is a very low birth rate now.
I wonder why family life has taken such a hit.
I don't see that many bike riders coming along.
We can't force middle age people on to bikes.
Why do you find this so complicated ?

So then Ron, in other words, with a falling birth rate, there will be less demand for road space for cars? At last we agree!

Well researched article. Sullivan has lost control because he’s doing what he said he would do when he got elected. Also he must of lost control if his Vision opponents are speaking out against him. That must mean anarchy is not far away.

It’s funny, if a dying lunatic COPE council crams through personal pet projects they are bastions of democracy. If a newly elected mayor reverses those decision, as he said he would in the election, he is being undemocratic. I must be missing something, oh ya, I forgot my ideological blinders.

I better put them on.

Those scum bag west side neo-cons, those rich bastards. Success is for losers, everybody should fail, why should you work hard to succeed when you can slack off and ask for handouts and be the moral equivalent of Mother Teresa. I love special interest groups. Lets go pimp the poor for financial gain, that way we can look good and feel good about ourselves. All media is biased except for of course the almighty tyee. I hate the rich, I hate Sam Sullivan.

Democratically elected governments shouldn’t be allowed to govern, they should be forced to only do what the opposition thinks, unless of course the government is of the left than they don’t have to listen to the opposition at all. That’s democracy baby, do what the left thinks, not what the majority wants.

All people who aren’t left wingers hate Canada, Vancouver and poor people. Fifthly animals breaking the backs of the poor to get rich. Burn those scum bags at the stake. Give me all your money, GIVE ME ALL YOUR MONEY NOW. Communism rules, screw personal freedoms, everybody should be the same. Individuality is terrible, we need 30 million clones, all of course making the same wage. Want to be a doctor? As long as you don’t mind making the same wage as a drug addict, go ahead. We’re all winners. Participation ribbons for everyone.

Damn, I better take those blinders off.

That quite a ride of hate, rhetoric and propaganda. And the best thing is I didn’t really have to know anything. Wow, those left wing blinders sure are great. I feel like I’m morally superior now. Does this mean I can belittle and talk down to those who are morally inferior? Maybe I can form my own poverty pimping agency. Or maybe I'll be part of the selct group of pimpers who's voice somehow represents all of Vancouver.

According to the author 40 people showing up at a meeting means more than the thousands who voted in the election. That’s the same type of thinking that lead to removing lanes of traffic in the bridge. Pandering to special interest groups instead of doing what’s best for the entire population.

Fred & Ethel:

...and lost your soul somewhere in the process, Fred/Ethel, your poor bastard.

Bet you've got the big TV, though, and the gas guzzler, so that you & Ethel/Fred can ride high above the mean streets to your comfortable home, draw the curtains and spend all night watching plastic babes doing "reality" TV with live surround sound, so that you and Ethel/Fred never have to face the price of your success--i.e. the reality of the miserable wretches who eke out their existence on the fringes, fighting the cold & rain and the mud you splash on them as you drive past the bus stop; getting home late every day after labouring for you at 10 bucks an hour; stopping at the payday loan-shark shop for some cash to buy the kids a couple Christmas presents, after forking over everything in the bank to make rent for another month on the dingy apartment with a view of a filthy alley.

Sweet dreams, Fred & Ethel, and Merry Christmas to you & yours too.

Wow Jim you sure extrapolate a lot of bad from a few people trying to do some good for those who aren't born yet and aren't likely to be driving cars given the current trends.

Jim
Your attempt at comedic irony was itself comedically ironic!
I offer you unintended congratulations!!

right-wing nutjobs/mindless rhetoric spewers of corporate sponsored propaganda

Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!

p.s.- don't be alarmed at midnight on the 24th when you hear those ghostly sounds of dragging chains and unearthly moaning.
Just pull your blankets over your heads and it will all go away.

Fred & Ethel: "No wonder the homeless rate is so high - these are people who believe society OWES them a living, a house and free drugs."

Then they must love Sam Sullivan. Afterall, he has a record of buying drugs for people who can't afford it themselves.

Stump, maybe in the future, but not right now. We will know when that time comes.
Maybe people will start having babies again.
Although, when we have state supported abortion, same sex marriages, high taxes and general godlesness, It would take a Christmas miracle.

Put four people in every car Ron, then come talk to me about your poor overcrowded roads.

Yes, we can see the headlines around the world now. Instead of postitive press about innovative social programs and true partnerships that worked to create a vibrant Olympic experience, they'll be about the social cost, how the city lost everything to turn itself into Disney Land and probably all the scandals we absolutely know are coming. That'll be good for tourism. And, who will get blamed? Sam. And, will Sam really get elected next time after destroying the supposed benefit of this bankrupt party we're throwing at the cost of so much suffering of other people and when he can't pretend to be socially balanced and when James Green's name won't allow him to cheat? Not a chance.

Let's not forget, not only is he in only because of James Green, he also got many votes from people thinking he was socially progressive because of his statements about being on welfare etc. They won't make that mistake twice.

It's a very sad state of affairs.

Hey Ron

People are forced to drive because the alternatives are either not safe or inconvinent. If car drivers had to suffer through the poor infrastructure that cyclists do, no one would drive.

7% of people in Kits commute by bicycle and even more will once the Burrard Bridge is improved. And Ron, the more people cycling and using public transit, the less cars will be on the road leaving more room for you. So cheer up.

Another problem is that people are not getting enough exercise because they are driving everywhere. As people age and start becoming more concerned about their health and wanting to stay sexy looking, they are more likely to concider cycling and walking more.

Lets face it Ron, you are jealous because cyclings are soooo HOT!!!!

Martin writes:

"The NPA won a majority on Council, School Board and Parks Board, and should govern accordingly."

Fred and Ethel write:

"You go Sam, us ordinary ratepayers think you are doing just fine. That's why democracy made you the mayor."

And JIm writes:

"Democratically elected governments shouldn’t be allowed to govern"

My thanks to you all. You think you have made one point, but have actually made another.

The James Green affair has been ignored by the MSM, just as Gordo gets a free pass. He has no mandate beyond the percentage of legitimate votes he received. Given the James Green affair, he has no legitimate mandate. And,in any case, any mandate truly given under the FPTP system should be restricted by the narrow range of victory. That is, a 6 to 5 split in council, should mean that the council would consider the close to 50% who did not vote for the majority of seatholders. It is not a mandate for self-serving tyranny.

A little much for the above posters to comprehend, I agree. They are lost in a LaLa world thinking that this system somehow has some legitimacy. Fools all.

A question: How many bikes actually use the Burrard Bridge per hour?

Hello everyone!

Don't worry about the taunting by the neo-cons! :(
They may have their way in Vancouver now, but wait and see what happens in three years!

"Dinosaurs may roam the earth (or this website to be precise), but they soon shall be extinct!"

PS: Bicycles and nice buns forever dudes!

Kevan Hudson
Not So Bicycle Friendly Korea

QUESTION: Why do neander-cons always assume that their critics are losers who are jealous of their success?

Because it is too disconcerting to accept that they too could have achieved success without stomping all over the weak and the voiceless.
Because it is incomprehensible that anyone would actually see value in contributing their own taxes to support social programs, social housing and social justice.
And because it flies in the face of their mindless consumerism that anyone would CHOOSE not to flaunt their success by buying the biggest house and driving the biggest gas guzzler, instead taking transit or riding a bike because we value our children's health and the health of our planet, as well as our own.

(Oh, right, I forgot! That would just make you a traitor to your class.)

Jester - How did your perspective of the world get so ugly? Perhaps if you shed your socialist skin and ramped up your productivity you too could have a nice life. What qualifies elected officials to make better choices about the use of our productivity through excessive taxes than we can?

Could someone show me where it is stated that social housing was axed? I cannot find a single refrence in this or any other article.

Face it, Tyee, you got hammered in the city election. COPE's policies and behaviour caused that. How about some objective reporting for a change.

And Kevan, I also lived in Korea for a while. Posters here should also go there so they can realise how lucky they are to live in Canada. Riding a bike in most of Korea will lead to certain death.

The only figure I could ever find was that in summer 5% of commuters enter the city by bike so why give them 25% of the bridge. Poor lefties, always losing and can't understand why.

'The James Green affair has been ignored by the MSM, just as Gordo gets a free pass. He has no mandate beyond the percentage of legitimate votes he received. Given the James Green affair, he has no legitimate mandate.' give it up wally-boy. the election is over and sam sullivan won. as did gordo and george w.. you lefties only like democracy if you win the election. if you don't you whine and bitch and cry until the next one. thank god mr. sullivan is cleaning up some of the mess the cope classic freaks left behind. that crew was a disaster for vancouver and i doubt you'll ever see a council as left as they were again. wonderful to see anne roberts and tim louis get about 4% of the vote. evidence that the 2002 election was a reaction to the wipeout of the ndp in 2001.

Jeez. Can we wind down the rhetoric here! I'm really tired of seeing every issue ending up as a clash between the Marxist hordes and the Ruling elite. I don't doubt there are growing inequalities in our social structure that need addressing. But for #$%^&@! sakes, we're talking about expanding the capacity of a bridge not burning down the Reichstag. There is a growing demand by cyclist's to have safe commuter access to the city. This is not an outrageous request. There apparently is a need for this and I think most sensible people, whatever there ideologies, agree that we have to find more progressive ways to solve these issues. I wish these forums would attract more comments from "mainstream people" instead the polarized views from both both ends of the political spectrum.

nln
People like gordon cambell, mike harris, george bush etc. etc. etc. etc. are the "ugliness" that you refer to.
If not for them, their policies and legions of blinded, brainwashed followers the world, and my view of it would not be so ugly.
Regarding "ramping up my productivity" why don't you and I meet somewhere and we can discuss this matter in much greater depth.
Finally regarding tax policy what exactly do you define as excessive taxation?
Are you happy with gordo and his corporate cronies stealing your hard-earned money to pay for their pet, circle-j#rk, white-elephant ueseless mega-projects!
How about the fast ferries which were so effectively used by gordo and the corporate media to demonize the ndp, which you paid for, being flipped back to his buddies for pennies on the dollar only to be reinstated on the same run!!!!!! TYEE WHY IS THERE NO STORY ON THIS ??
How about the so called NEXEN-LANDS in Squamish worth millions and millions to BC taxpayers quietly handed over to the DOS by gordo so they can be flipped back to concord pacific. Price for transfer? 5 DOLLARS.
Now thats sound fiscal management!!!
Like I said it's welfare for the rich and capitalism for the rest.
So why don't you take your whining tax, free-loader theory and stick it down your chimney!!

Larry Campbell could have averted the about turn we're now seeing with council policies from Mr. "Moderate" Sullivan and co.

Larry was the moderate. If only he'd run again
instead of jumping out the emergency exit door, safe with a golden parachute (a Senate seat) on his back.

If he had, we'd have a Vision/Cope majority today, and S.S. would be more of a nagging contrarian voice than an effectual reverser of policies.

Can't we all just get along?

I voted in the Vancouver election. I didn't think it was a battle between the extreme left and the extreme right. Jim Green was a pragmatist who suggested that stretching the budget for a little more social housing was a good idea. Sam Sullivan is also a pragmatist. But, he happens to think that the budget just can't take the hit.

Sullivan decided to leave car traffic exactly the same on the bridge AND then spend money widening the sidewalks for bikelanes like on Cambie. Does this make him an right-wing, neo-con? In the United States, there's a battle going on over abortion rights, oil wars, and evolution.

The way the comments on this board always go, you'd think that the election was a litmus test for society. We always dig for something to disagree on, and then hammer each other over it. The party system is to blame because parites need to differenciate themselves. But mostly, I blame the media for this, including The Tyee. The more controversy they can whip up and sensationalize, the more ads they can sell. News has become entertainment. We've all seen this is happening in the US. A divided population is better for the establishment. We're all being played. The media is winning and we're all losing.

If there's one thing that gives me hope for us BCers, it's the working relationship of Gordon Campbell and Carole James.

Happy holidays!

Hello Kirk!

I don't disagree with the general thrust of your post.

However, I have one question.

Would that be the "WE DESERVE A PAY RAISE" while you suffer working realtionship?

I only wish my boss was so easy to work with!

Kevan Hudson

PS: Oh, MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Sorry, no pay raise for you...and me...and him...and her...

Not everyone using the Burrard street bridge lives in Vancouver city, in fact it is part of a network of roads that are used by people going much further than downtown.

The bike lane idea was a band-aid solution rather than fix the sidewalk, which fixing anyways. It’s like investing in tarps rather fixing the roof.

The 2010 Olympics would have been a better investment for the province if done in the interior rather than pushing a mature product like Whistler which is already straining it’s infrastructure and local land base.

Working Man, I've run into that same vision problem on a number of occassions.

Best cure for it is to take off the friggin' blinkers fellow and then all will be clear.

Hey, I don't know why you are so down on social housing. Worried they don't want any high-end cement etchings, are you?

I do trust you have given to paid time off to all those dozens of indentured apprentices you say are on your payroll.

IMO, the comments here at the tyee, are the discussion that should be taking place in the public square. The minor insults aside, the conversation isn't about polarized politics as much as it is about differing policy paths. Of which, one is radical, destructive and dishonest. Also, Sam's politics aren't discerned by one bike/bridge decison, but his voting record, his public comments and ideas, such as having the property taxpayer pay for failed business bids made to the city!!!!! Yet another legitimate cost of doing business he and his want to unjustly shift to the citizen.

misfit, anarchist and socialist dreamweaver, elitist, heartless, neoconservative robots, self-righteous nimby's, scum bag west side neo-cons, those rich bastards,...

It's amazing what people will say to each other behind the anonymity of the internet. I'd hate to think of the consequences of a public gathering where both sides would be hurling these "minor insults" at each other. redrivergirl, you're much more thick skinned than I am. If someone walked up to me on the street and started spewing these invective comments, I think I'd want to punch them in the nose. I wouldn't of course, but I'd want to.

JJ - I'm not happy when any politician wastes my money whether it's for mega projects or payoffs to freinds, supporters and insiders. How much taxation is excessive? How about when governments go from what they must do to what special interest groups demand they do? What's wrong with Capitalism? As I understand it, it's better than the alternatives.

I'm curious why you feel the need to be a censor on the site. Perhaps you could contribute some political opinion of your own. Or, perhaps you wish others to hold less strong opinons? Whatever it is, it is curious.

Everyone has different comfort levels about conflict. If your sensitivities are broached it is up to you to take care of yourself and refrain from reading the comment section, or have some smelling salts on hand.

Personally, when I think of what invenctive our sociopathic policy makers and their anti-life belief system really deserve, comments at the tyee seem rather sedate.

Remember Jon Stewart's comments on Crossfire?
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2652831?htv=12

breached, not broached. lol

"What's wrong with Capitalism? As I understand it, it's better than the alternatives."

If you're paraphrasing Churchill... he was referring to democracy.

Scares me that capitalism and democracy are regarded as interchangeable. Hard to believe the difference between an economic system and a political one isn't noted.

Especially, when Capitalism is fast becoming the antithesis to democracy, Stump.

Stump - Didn't intend to make it seem that the two are interchangable. I still think it's a fair question tho'. Which economic system gets your vote?

Redrivergirl, I think your friend's sensitivites might also have been poached given the steam that gets let off here in Tyee.

But I'm with you.

Beers won't even let you bring a gun into these sessions.

I'd say everything I've seen in here has been just plain old free speech.

Kitscommutter, we like to ensure everyone gets a nice working handle when they leap in here with such clarity.

Can you think of any good insults that sorta just stick to you when your read them?

Hey NoLeftNutter, did it fall off?

Nah - taken by the former government after I'd given them all the money I had......

allan, show me where I am against social housing. You want a job? I will give you one. We are short two labourers now. I can't find anybody who wants to do it. Just post any e-mail address and you will be working on Jan 3. We are shut down until then.

Be forewarned: you will have to work hard and in inclement weather. It is manual labour. I will give you a boot allowance the first day.

Are you up to it?

Workingman, (not Shirking man, but that sure fits the neo-cons you support, in fact that is my new name for neo-cons, those who would shirk their societal obligations) :-)

Allan, obviously isn't a manual labourer. Although, he is on the side of the labourer/worker. And, doing manual labour is honourable work. You have heard of the expression, an honest days works for an honest dollar?

Well, that is what those you would call 'left' believe in, rahter than exploiting others to create more for oneself, because that is a form of theft, regardless of the lack of morality involved.

If I don't get back, Merry Christmas everyone. I abhor the politics, not the man. And, wish you all a holiday that is meaningful and one where you feel loved.

Many blessings.

Thanks redrivergirl, I'll keep the smelling salts handy. I'm not interested in censoring anyone, I just get tired of seeing meaningful discussions degenerating into sophist debates. Too many times opportunities to solve problems slip away when discourse turns into debacle.
Glad you like my handle Allan, yours is especially imaginative.

All you right wing jackasses who want to cut crime should be supporting more social housing not cutting it like the NPA yahoos. More housing for low income people is the best and also most cost effective way to cut crime. A year in jail is about 5 to 10 times as expensive as a year in subsidised social housing as far as I could calculate.

As for getting a job, it is impossible to live on the wages most of the labour/service jobs that are available. Even if you work full time you would still need subsidised housing.

Well, Kits, you could always elevate the discourse. :-) And, goodness, you should see the American blogs. Most do offend my sensibilities! I think ours our mostly tame.

Unfortunately, until neo-conservatism/free-market fundamentalism etc are completely discredited, which I believe is not that far off, there are few realistic solutions to the problems we face. hopefully the planet will survive their assault until then) That is why I see this movement as the biggest problem to be solved and my focus always ends up there.

kuma, I think you are moving this thread in a refreshing direction. Please go on.

A quick estimate using my own criteria comes up with the same general cost ratio.

I call it re-active planning when you save on maintenance programs so as to have funds available should a part break down.

How dare those bestial wretches offend your delicate sensitivities. The impropriety of it all ;-)

As for your concerns regarding neo-conservatism/freee-market fundamentalism, it will take a lot of convincing to remold the opinions of your average voting right wing American/Canadian. To use the term voting with regards to American politics these days is really a gross misuse of the term, seeing as there is no audit trail to verify votes anymore. In any event, I believe a deluge of irrefutable information and the efforts of some very determined and focused people will eventually win the day. I hope.

On a local level, as far as I'm concerned it's a no brainer to sling a platform onto both sides of the bridge. It would be easy to integrate the design to coexist with the current structure. Some art deco touches, not too faux of course, all in good taste. I think the biggest controversy would be who gets the outside lane with the view. The cyclists or pedestrians. My vote goes to the pedestrians.

It's a wonder to me why a RAV line running down Arbutus isn't already in the works. I'd still like to know who was behind plunking that tacky mini-mall right smack in the middle of the rail right of way just south west of Granville Island. Any one who could shed some light on that, please step in. Why we haven't put into motion a transportation grid that will efficiently link up our airport and ferry terminals to our downtown core (train station) is also a puzzler.

Don't know if this serves to elevate the discourse but at least you now know where I'm coming from.

No Left Nutter:

I'm a fan of free enterprise with strong government oversight.

Kitscommuter:
It's not the feasibility of the project, it's the rationale. There's plenty of capacity gettting to/from downtown already with three bridges that to my experience barely ever suffer from much more than a slow down. Strike One against the Wings of Auto-centricity. Further, a lane experiment was proposed and passed by previous council. Considering how hard the NPA cried foul when COPE turned down Walmart in Vancouver; citing how hard the mega-corp had worked to meet the requirements, it's the height of hypocrisy by the current council to now repudiate the work done by the previous council, staff, and the citizens -- who have taken the time to educate themselves and support a reasonable, feasible, financially sound solution. Holy run on sentence, but strike two for the Wings of Payback.

And now the current NPA lot say they're trying to keep the bridge open for buses and thru traffic. Well, how many routes take the Burrard Bridge? I only know of 2 (#2 and #22, although I'm sure there's no doubt more) . Plus, there's no trolley lines, no bus that runs on the south side of Burrard, and Burrard terminates at Sixteenth Ave. Seems to me the Burrard Bridge is a convenient crossing for West Side drivers, but that's about it as far as being a major route. Strike three for the Wings of Creme-itude.

This new and revised plan for the bridge is a lot of things but smart ain't one of 'em.

Hi Stump. I'm a fan of democratic government with strong oversight of free enterprise.

I think we should spend the money and turn the Burrard street bridge into one of the most beautiful, usefull and unique bridges in the world. To be able to walk along a promenade on either side of the bridge would be quite spectacular. It would add to the many number of attractions we already have in this city. Car usage wouldn't be affected so that takes that whole impediment out of the equation. Cyclists would have a lane of their own on both sides,(the existing sidewalk) so their happy. Let's just do it, times a wastin.

Kitscommuter, welcome to the joint. Now that I can see some of your colours you begin to makle sense, but quit being so argumentive. I mean we at least try to get along here, if you didn't notice. lol.

Working Man, hey thanks for the job offer, which, under some circumstances would have had me biting, but commuting to the coast when I'd have to commute back to paradise?

Well, no thanks, unless you can convince me otherwise.

I have my own boots and I know well what hard work is, but I don't yet have one reason I want to work for you.

Hey, I'm easy, but I'm not cheap.

It would be great to have a real 'walking and riding route, that included the bridge for only bikes and strollers, linking up to the sea wall and downtown. Our weather is so nice that we could do this year round and the air would once again be fresh. I would ride my bike, or walk downtown for sure if it were safe. I'd love this city to be a city of cafes and walkers. I'd eliminate cars from Granville island while we're at it. If we had a good bus service, that stopped close to the island, plus the bus or trolley that drops off there every so often, for seniors etal, that experience would be changed for the better and businesses wouldn't suffer because people would still attend. In fact, they may even do better than they do now.

There is good news about Diebold. They had to leave SC and CA is kicking them out.

I don't know if you know this blog. It keeps track of what is happening.

http://www.bradblog.com/

Neo-conservatism hurts my sensibilities. lol I think that is a large part of my indignation.

There is absolutely no obligation to provide housing for homeless people. A compassionate societ should help out citizens with a mental illness, physical disabilites, and the truly dysfunctional.

I live in a rental building which is owned by the union pension funds as a long term investment for their members. The rents are high the rooms are small but the building is clean safe and superbly maintained ( by union workers ). This level of service is expensive but necessary to attract quality tenants and protect the investment.

This scenario does not exist in social housing.
There is no profit motive no need to attract tenants so these buildings will deteriorate like a 1974 Honda Civic. In New York City, there were thousands of run down, unsafe, fire hazard buildings because the government has frozen rents thus the owners have no incentive to properly maintain or upgrade. Many have now gone condo and have been beautifully restored.

The homeless need to be given opportunites to become productive - not treat them like victims. Teach the homeless how to fish not give them fish. There is no pride or esteem in handouts.

Society does have an obligation to provide affordable housing, whether through regulation, ie rent control, specific units, coops, buildings etc.

However, even if for the sake of argument, it doesn't, the fact that there are homeless people means that society isn't working properly. This could be for a variety of reasons.

Denial, have you noticed there aren't any rich homeless people?

PS, There are several beautiful social housing units in Vancouver, including beautifully landscaped co-ops and well run buildings, by non-profits etc. Also, in BC traditionally, we were very smart and built social housing in many areas rather than creating ghettos.

And, there is no pride or esteem when confronted by prejudice, ignorance and a naive, 'it could never happen to me' attitude by some in society who fail to see what is right in front of them.

I wonder how the homeless are doing tonight as it pours rain on this Christmas Eve's eve.

Although, I read the Campbell gov't is converting them into independent living units for seniors most of whom need nursing care. So perhaps we have fewer than we think.

And, obligation or not, that is where many of us want a portion of our taxes to go.

Redrivergirl,
In a perfect captitalistic world those who made all the money would give most to charity and we could have all the social housing in the world and shut down bridge lanes for cyclists etc.
The reality is that there are homeless people in communist, soccialist, dictatorial and capitalistic countries all over the world tonight.
Our system is not perfect, far from it, but it does offer the most opportunity for the homeless to change their lives and become reponsible and productive members of society if they choose.
Our system also allows those who make all the money the opportunity to use that money for charitable purposes. Sadly most are missing the boat and their greed and fear are preventing them from experiencing one of the most precious feelings in the world, giving to the less fortunate with no expectation in return.
What a system it would be if those who could be productive were and the rest of those disabled in any way shape or form were looked after by those who are rich.
I think there would be a lot less people striving to be rich, though, if they were forced to give most of their money to charitable causes so it's about choices.
The way it is now we would have to tax people to death to serve all those less fortunate and most joe/jill taxpayer wouldn't be happy about that but if the rich would truly have an overall change of heart and become more about giving than getting it would make a difference. An by giving I don't mean just giving money but time and business experience so they could help launch social enterprise ventures that would create employment for those less fortunate while at the same time creating revenues to further their causes.

I realise that handouts are a lot easier than working, allan. Don't spend your extra fifty bucks you got this month all in one place.

barryjo, your comment is perfectly sensible and shows that you have seen the problem first hand. However, socialists believe that the only solution to any problem is to throw unlimited amounts of money at it.

However, socialists also believe that it not up to them to "help" the homeless. They would not want to actually sacrafice anything themselves. It this better to give the poor the shirt of somebody else's back. They would not for a minute ever consider going down to Hastings St and handing out their money to the people the claim to champion. Nor will they invite the "homeless" into their homes. It does, however, make them feel good in a voyeuristic kind of way to squeal about the need to throw somebody else's money at them.

If the rich are forced to give away their wealth, its not about choice - its about totalitarianism. The government is not the moral compass of society. the government's only priority should be protecting the citizens from harm and ensuring their property rights. If you take away the incentive for profit, you take away the reason to start a business and then you will have state run enterprises. Go research how well that worked in Communist Russia and Communist China.

What if you went in the other direction and lowered the tax rate, reduced the bureacracy, and eliminated unnecessary costly rules and regulations and encouraged business?. What If you had a flat tax rate to encourage wealth creation?. Lets say 20% flat tax. If you earn $20,000 you pay $4000, $100,000 you pay $20,000 and $2,000,000 pays $400,000. If the Walmart worker pays $4,000 in taxes and the wealth creator pays $400,000 in taxes, how could anyone complain about that. If you do not give the wealth creator an incentive to earn, he will go elsewhere and that is $400,000 less our govenment will get. How does that help poor people?.

Denial,
That is what I'm saying, if the wealthy had to give their money away (totaltitarianism) many would lose their deisre to create wealth.
I'm also saying the gift of giving in my opinion is greater than the gift of getting and most rich people don't get that.
Recently I have noticed more rich people starting to give away much of the money they have amassed which is a hopeful sign.
For sure it doesn't go with us when we leave this world so why not give it away before we die and we will get to feel like we have tried to be part of the solutiions to the problems facing our communities.

Barryjo, charity is not a substitute for social justice. Noo ne has a right to exploit the environment and other people to amass untold wealth while others starve. The environment and our own labour belong to us all as individuals. If one is not paying a living wage they are stealling someone elses labour. If you pollute the environment and/or take natural resources that belong to us all, then the 'spoils' don't belong exclusively to you. It is a bankrupt economic system that asserts that. And, I know a little about the 'charity' the very wealthy indulge in, and it is usually, charity that involves a chair at a university, donations to the art gallery, an already affluent hospital, a 'pet' interest. It rarely is about really helping others who are poor. It can be about helping others in a 'pet' charity however. Not very effective in terms of society. Charity implies what the 'giver' deigns to give is actually theirs. As I said above, if it is ill gotten, then we need to ask, is it really? If you are breathing your neighbour's toxins as he makes money doing something that creates those toxins, is that just to you?

Working man, from your writing it is clear that you don't know anything about socialism, nor are those you call socialists, really socialists, but in my own case I am a socio-democrat. We lived under this system for years and it worked well for society and for most people. It did however restrain some irresponsible exploiters among us and that is what this really is about.

Denial, we already know the answers to your 'what if' questions. We only need to look over the border to see how well it's working. Or, at any third world country, really. A tax base that can support good services are a necessary expediture in a first world country adn a civil society.

You assert,

Says who? Many of us don't buy into the cult of neo-conservative/libertarian/free-market idolatry and therefore have a different view about the function of gov't. Too bad Campbell etal weren't honest with British Columbians and had this debate with the public. Of course they had to lie because most Canadians like having a good gov't. In fact 'peace order and good government' is our dictate, not, 'life liberty and the persuit of happiness'.

You all sure seem to be indoctrinated. It really is an unwise and destructive belief system. It is anti-life. It goes against our very genetics. Economic theory is just that, not the 'holy grail'. And, certainly any that is so rigid, so proven wrong, and so self-serving should be suspect to any thinking person.

Look what's happening in South America as a direct response to free-market fundamentalism and the IMF dictates. It caused a rise in real socialism. If Brasil goes Socialist in the run off that's three new countries in just GB's term. Argentina just bought off it's debt to the WB with the help of Chavez and hasn't been following their dictates since they almost ruined their country. Capitalists had it really good in Canada. You are killing the goose that has been laying the golden egg for many affuent Canadians. Believe me, Canadians have a much lower tolerance for poverty than people in countries who know little else and are placated by the church.

oops Chile, not Brazil. Sorry, Brazil already went.

re: homeless rich people. Margot Kidder... for a while.

Further, there's plenty of people who once had it all and now have nothing.

Does the 'right' to housing entail a responsibility to society? I'd say yes, unless you have mental problems. Does addiction (theoretically treatable) qualify? Hard to say. Denial raises an interesting issue.

re: the wealthy giving it away.

Without patronage or potlatch style traditions the wealth accumulates. Noblesse oblige is as essential to capitalism as it was to fuedalism.

I don't now how one would motivate people to great achievements w/out great reward. Changing our value system would take some time.

Yes. The most obvious historical examples (Carnegie et al) involve said individuals acting like greedy abusive dicks most of their lives while amassing the wealth. Then as they face mortality (or realize members of their brood won't pick up the dynastic reins) they want to whitewash their legacy. How hopeful.

In Canada, levels of philanthropy are pathetic. And only the truly ignorant believe business people want to create jobs and will do so if they get tax breaks. People are difficult and demanding. Why deal with them if you can avoid it? Every businessman knows this.

Hi Stump,

My point is that people who are rich (with the very few exeptions of some with mental illness who fall throught the cracks that their money affords them such as good care etc) don't end up on the street. Why? They have money to pay their taxes, or rent as the case may be. Is addict Whitney Huston living on the street? What is the diffence between she and some poor girl on hastings? Money. That's it. My point is that it isn't choice. I don't believe one homeless person in their 'right minds' chooses homelessness as a lifestyle choice. Before in our society, a person could pay their rent, even when working minimally. And, if they were chronically unemployed their welfare check was at least adequate to provide their rent and kraft dinner. Rent now is beyond a reasonable percentage of most people's income. This means they are not saving, but living pay check to pay check. Many people are becoming homeless because they've lost their jobs and their savings have run out. Many young people aren't even leaving home! This is a problem that society has and has to own as such. When society isn't working in the ways that, for instance, in Calgary where employeed people are living in shelters because they can't afford rent, then what we've created are a form of 'slave quarters'.

Also, I'm not talking about a new system. I'm talking about what we took for granted only 15 to 20 years ago in Canada, before the attack on our way of life began. I'm not talking about reinventing the wheel. I'm talking fair taxation and regulation. Common sense. But, some among us don't want to be restricted from exploiting others and the environment. It's that simple, I think.

Denial is repeating the 'free-market 'lines'
The way I see it, and not too long from now, that invisible hand is going to come down and spank a whole lot of it's supporters, shocking them to heck. I'm just sorry so many innocent people who aren't gambling will be (and are being) hurt before then.

.

It is because of inheratance taxes that so many foundations exist in the USA. Check some facts before you spew.

Redrivergirl,
You seem so agitated all the time, whats up with that. We live in a very imperfect world where we have have a choice to dwell on what works or what doesn't work. We all have our opinions, sometimes we're right, sometimes we aren't.
You stated that you don't believe one homeless person in their right mind would choose it as a lifestyle choice. I know many, myself included who did just that. Maybe I wasn't in my right mind but I didn't want to live by any rules that would come with living indoors.
An overwhelming number of us have issues with authority and living in housing with its rules was too authoritarian.
As well, most of the homeless about 3/4 are addicted to drugs and any money we get from assistance goes to drugs. I remember month in month out getting intents to rent and getting them filled out by perspective landlords, enduring the line-ups at the welfare counter while I was dope sick and at the end of the month picking up the check. Within three to four hours I would be broke having spent all your tax money on drugs and saying to myself "it's only thirty days to wait and I'll get a place and I won't screw up next time", I did that for years. That is the way it was and is for many of us.
I think that some of the homeless would really appreciate housing but don't think that a bunch of money thrown at the problem will fix it. Unless we can fix the underlying problems that leads to homelessness it will always be here. Many of the homeless I talk to on the streets came here from other parts of Canada and the world because of our lax drug laws, warm winter weather and harm reduction initiatives like free legal heroin.
It is a complex problem and the solution will not be simple. Hopefully enough people will put the effort into finding solutions so those who seek decent affordable housing will get access to it.

No need to worry about inheritance taxes or any of the other yokes socialists want to hang around your neck Working Man. Just sign up with the PT Club and all your worries will be over. You'll be one step closer to being a true, modern day global citizen. The only snag might be some difficulty looking oneself in the mirror each morning. I'm sure with most of their clients that quickly passes however.

http://www.ptclub.com/aboutus.html

Denial wrote:

That is because the Walmart work pays ALL of his/her taxes. The "wealth creator" has creative (legal and justifiable) ways to pay less tax. How much do you think the Walmart worker is "writing off" each year so that they are not paying "400,000" in taxes?

Asset accumulation compunds itself. For example, just being able to own property over the past ten years has made many asset rich.

Not that this is a problem, however, the "flat tax" is too simplistic.

Once again, I thank a poster for making my point. Although it is clear that little elliot doesn't have a clue what the point might have been.

little elliot writes:

"thank god mr. sullivan is cleaning up some of the mess the cope classic freaks left behind. that crew was a disaster for vancouver"

My point exactly little elliot; because the small thinkers (yes, little elliot, you are one) think that a 6 - 5 right/left split on council means that sammy boy can do what he likes. That, in spite of the fact that his "victory" was razor thin in seats, and thin also in the popular vote.

The question for you little elliot, is how you can justify bitching and whining and moaning about a left council making decisions when the left has the majority of seats, but think this phony FPTP set up is OK for the right when that side of the spectrum holds one more seat?

I know that this thought is a little deep for you little elliot. Bounce it around your cranium over the holidays. I'll be back to continue your social education upgrading as required.

Merry Christmas to all.

Working Man, I'm extremely disappointed your offer of work was as about as deep and lasting as all the statements you make here.

I'm just curious as to what you pay a labourer on one of your projects. Perhaps there is a reason no one wants to work for you.

Sam certainly wouldn't be my choice for much of anything. But he somehow ended up as mayor, with a NPa majority. They have waited for a few years to get back to doing what they want to do and everyone else can complain , bitch, and moan. They arn't about to listen.

If some of the folks had worked just a bit harder for either the COPE contenders or Jim Green things might have been much different. The split on the left hurt the left. Nose out of joint aboout the RAv line, well to late now folks, here it comes and most likely over budget, just as the Olympic team runs up that bill as well.

Social housing, out the window,what to do with the old Woodwards building, add some more pricey condos. They are on a roll. So it's time to start working for the next election to get rid of some of those rightwingers.

Which is not in anyway connected to the point.Its about the motivation, not the mechanics.

So tell us, would you prefer to have lower taxes and a higher income and not have to hire anyone...or do you like having to organize and manage a workforce?

What we have in cityhall today is what Campbell introduced to us a few years ago..a BLT. A "bottom line toad". Nothing is enacted on until it is siphoned through a financial strainer. Never mind the humanities here, its about bucks and only bucks! And it sucks. Merry Christmas, only 3 yrs to go with Uncie Sam

wally-boy; on the 'unschooling' thread i listed your awards for the year, but i failed to mention the 'far too much time on my hands' award, which you win for the above posts. congratulations guy, and happy new year.

I am starting to think that you are truly cognitively challenged, little elliot. That is, you are not able to actually engage in debate and think that evading the point under discussion somehow advances your argument.

The point above is that you think the FPTP system is fine when the right gets a majority of seats, but somehow the system doesn't work when the left acts on the phony mandate. You, little elliot, apparently cannot see your own hypocrisy.

Others on the board have moved beyond rote flaming responses and have started to engage in debate, little elliot. You are left alone and bereft, the village idiot. Try harder next year when we will continue with your social and political education.

We pay unskilled laboyurers $16.00 to start and after a year all my employees share in a profit sharing agreement. The problem we have is actually finding people who want to work. In addtion, the more skills the person has the more his/her pay is. We have had very little turnover in workers, even during the Dark Times of the 1990s. We now have a problem actually finding people who want to do demanding, physical labour.

$16.00 per hour? WOW, my first job working for a tree climber was $6.00 and was bloody hard and dangerous work. $16.00 was what well paid workers got back in the late 70’s.

You are right about it hard top find people that want to work at dirty hard jobs, I used the Elizabeth Fry Society to provide workers to help restore a boat for a museum, the kids they went were worse than useless, they didn’t know how to work and didn’t want to get dirty, thought it was beneath them. I never ask someone to do a job I have not done myself (army training) I had little sympathy for their attitude.