I already have.

I wonder if the vote would have been different had the Union called everyone that crossed the picket line

I'm sure telus vp's will be celebrating with teenage escorts late into the evening.
I'd pay a dollar for that!!

"If Telus decides to move BC jobs offshore, or even to Alberta, I guess I'll have to move the last few services I buy from them to someone else"

The issue is that anywhere that you would move your business has already "offshored"!

Great quote - people who say that Alberta is only chugging along due to oil are clearly off their rockers.

If you started a business and had flexibility, would you employ the grateful Alberta workers OR self-entitled BC workers?

The answer is clear as Alberta continues to attract employment across several industries. They continue to grow, and create employment.

With globalization a reality, it is necessary that employers have flexibility. Telus needs to compete and hopefully this contract allows them to do so, and remain in BC.

They are the one company giving Vancouver credibility in the business-world.

"Over 50 percent of Alberta has gone to work under a lesser agreement. Alberta is a different working culture, with a different frame of mind," Bell said. "The entire province votes conservative, and it has done that for 35 years. They just go to work there."

And if the union would have held out longer, Bell says he envisioned more and more B.C. workers picking up and moving to Alberta.

to mabellbc- do you mean "grateful alberta employees" or do you really mean people that will screw over their neighbour for a buck. I'd prefer to remain someone with a commitment to service that BC people are entitled to for what they pay rather than only the quarterly report and someone that has a shred of loyalty. Better hope that you don't need to become flexible as it means being bent over a chair.

mabellbc, you don't get it. They are shutting Vancouver operations down, and moving them to Alberta, Ontario, and Quebec. It's already started.

mabellbc.........the Alberta employees voted for the BC based TWU to represent them. They wanted the same contract that BC had. When it came time to show support, they stabbed their fellow employees in the back. Management nor the union trust these individuals now. Can you say, "poisoned work enviroment?"

Or employees too dumb to realize what is happening to them and will continue to happen if people don't stand together. Either way it's pretty low brow.

I have had two confrontations with Telus, that I went straight to the top with. Turns out it is in Calgary.and in my frustrations, told the gentleman, that if smoke signals ever came back, that's where I was going and to heck with Telus.
Well, "smoke signals" did arrive and that is where I went. So, calling to cancel my Telus telephone service and number...I asked the "Telus " gentleman on the other end of the line where he was working out of. WELL to my surprise, he is working out of a city in India.
So you all out there worrying about the Telus Jobs going out to Alberta, and out of the country, you can rest in peace... they have already gone.
P.S. my phone bill now is $55.00 per month instead of the $86.90 with telus.

I would just like to state that no all telus employees from Alberta "stabbed their fellow employees in the back" there are some of us who stood strong, proud and never waivered throughout this dispute, and for those of you who were there with me on the picket line, I thank you for your support. Unfortunately, the jobs are going overseas, this is a sad reality that we have to face.

From Mabellbc

You've got that right. Just keep your different working culture in Alberta thank you very much. I've seen how the new gypo Albertan landlords in the Okanagan have moved in and are trying to shape our working culture. Low wages, no breaks for 5 hours, no benifits.Thanks Alberta your taking us back 20 years.

The last 25 to 30 years have not been good ones for the working class and the trade union movement. Business is reputedly booming, but working class share in that boom continues to tank, while ruling class share is doing fine, thank you very much.

Along with that, of course, trade union credibility and influence is declining precipitously, certainly here in the interior heartland, previous heavy industries that were the beating heart of the economy and good wages like the shipyards, and the wood industry certainly, continue to languish in the doldrums and shed jobs amd good wages, while the logs slide south with Alberta oil to the Empire and the coal continues to be shipped to Japan.

The touted saviour is to be tourism, which is presumably to get a kick from "the really big show" at Whistler, will really only continue to give mostly minimum wage jobs. Thank God for Yankee tourism.

Nope, but even that is tanking with the increasing value of the dollar, rising oil prices, the insecurity of US citizens themselves, and US free trade manipulations.

And we wonder why participation rates in everything from unions to the electoral processes are declining.

There is no mystery or great science to it actually. Indeed, it seems to be so straight forward, no one can believe the obvious. It has to be more complicated than that.

And the obvious is, Capitalism is moving to a different place ideologically everywhere, and it is having dramatic and disasterous "quality of life" effects on working class life everywhere on the planet. The class system of capitalism, which is tolerable in the easy cash boom times during and immediately after wars and major economic collapses, when the cycle begins anew, becomes quickly intolerable when it all goes for a shite. (Though the ruling class always manages to find ways to prosper and steal wealth from the working class, even in the bad times. One man/ woman's misfortune in capitalist "street" savvy and practice, that being Howe St of course, is another's opportunity to profit. That is the root morality and world view of the system since its first founding in the outcome of the English Civil War of 1642-49.)

So yeah, the workers, and not just unorganized workers, now including union workers like those at Telus, Teachers, and the now defunct infant industries that were just starting like the neophyte Richmond Steel Manufacture, most gone stateside or offshore with NAFTA, and Hospital workers, are suffering setbacks hitherto unknown for a long time, and have been since the late seventies.

And this will continue, in my view, for so long at least as it takes folks to get the message that current capitalism is not that of your youth, the post WW2, when during the good times, the working class decided to give it their loyalty , or at least agreed at some conscious/unconscious level to not oppose it so militantly as had the depression era generation and earlier, and to cut co-opting deals with it instead. For if one wants to see something of what the solution to the current period looks like, it's to that depression era and earlier that one needs to look, again, in my view.

The class war is back upon us, only too many of us are still having trouble believing it. Too many are still hunkered down in their hidey fox holes, hoping the incoming rounds will just hit those similarly hunkered down and hoping likewise in the next hidey hole.

One regrets the effects of all the lost labour struggles since Solidarity, and the downward slide, but business as usual for individual workers or their unions isn't good enough anymore. The message just needs to get through.

Welcome K-Mart Shoppers

Are we HAPPY KAMPERS now?

Offshore = Alberta?
Cool! We have our own 3rd world right in our very own country!

Don F.

I do get it and let's hope this contract provides Telus with the flexibility to keep jobs in BC. I was referring to their corporate presence. In the business world, they are very well respected and are leading North America in wireless customer growth and customer satisfaction.

They have been excellent community contributors. The majority of their executive management is based in Vancouver. The executives at Telus are some of the most respected executives in Canada (in the business world) and there are based here in Vancouver.

Globalization is a reality and Telus no longer has a monopoly. They are in a competitive environment.

Capitalism bring many evils to society, however it brings far more good than bad. The worlds thriving economies of Australia, USA, Hong Kong and even Canada are capitalist countries. Wheras, our socialist friends in France, Germany, and Holland are faced with high taxes and gov't spending and unemployment rates > 10%.

They announced the vote on Friday and on Sunday I found out from a co-worker that they had already contracted out our work. We were numbered with that non core group of 3 to 4 hundred. It was always nice to know that every day I did not call in sick, that I showed up and put in my time, that I did my job to every one's satisfaction and praise, that I went beyond what was required and also did what was needed or asked, that I was actually contributing to the ineffiency of the company. Knowing how Telus felt about me and my work, voting yes to this horrid contract was easy and neccessary, because I knew it meant the difference to thousands of others also losing their jobs now, or having five years of security in which to plan their after Telus future.

BC is not immune to forces of a fluid inter or intra-national labour market. Nor are we immune to competition. We are no island and cannot act as if we can shield ourselves from the outside world.

Ultimately we need to compete - if we don't, our quality of life will erode and disappear. We are part of a nation with a diversified economy, and part of a larger world with an even more diversified economy. How sheltered and provincial are we in BC if we get so riled-up about harder-working Albertans stealing jobs from entitlement-dependent British Columbians? Would we be shedding tears for Albertans if the shoe was on the other foot? This compassionate chauvanism is hypocritical.

We can't hide our heads in the sand - competition is upon us and we'd better be ready to respond or else we will lose big.

Well Telus is going to compete, but my quality of life is gone and I am losing big. The ones who benefit from this are the big wigs and large share holders. It used to be that a company would pride itself on an integrity that saw it committed to the good of it's customers, employees, it's community, as well as the owners. Now the global thing to do is be concerned just with profit. Screw the workers, and maintain an appearance of concern for customers and the environment; only share holders matter now.

Funny you still hear the bleating of sheep, calling out for all to follow into the corporate pasture. Competition is driving the market and we must follow or be left behind. Count me in the growing numbers who want to be left behind. It's a rat race....it's for RATS!! The lack of any thought about what the future holds is typical of extinct societies before us. Anyway you slice it the US has buried itself under a mountain of debt. You want to be big man on Campus for 100 years, you will pay a big price. Just want do think will happen when the interest is due on Americas debt? They've already spent their grandchildrens inheritance. Those of you preaching global markets and competion have been sucked into the economic lie. You guys are driving the bus towards the cliff. I hope it's a long fall, so I have enough time to ring your neck just before we all die at the bottom! Small consolation....

mabellbc...Well, how are things going in those darn socialist countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway? They always seem to be at the top of the U.N.s list of best countries to live in.
Is it a goal of capitalist countries to foster a "third world" of poverty so that they have a continual source of cheap labor that they can tap to keep their profits up?

Macbell's

ALTA has been completely colonized by Texas and its oil industry. You have an outside master and are no longer in charge of your own destiny.

You're kidding right? USA, Australia and Canada are not laissez faire capitalist countries although the radical right is trying very hard to make them that way. We are still receiving the benefit of social democracy. Many third world countries are capitalist. It hasn't been capitalism that has given us a high quality of life, it has been the partnership of capitalism and socialism combined with all our resources including a well educated work force.

Incredulous's

This is the big lie. What we need to do is have some courage and set standards We are so resouce rich and could be setting trade stanards which include fairness, environmental protection and workers rights. There would be a lot of money to be made without oppressing the citizens of this country and others. But, greed and sociopathy are dictating otherwise.

411, I know many in ALTA are not going along with the songsheet. They want BC Workers to think you are. Just like their 'its inevitable' refrain.

Can't say I know much about Denmark or Finland. They are very isolated up there, and aren't major economic players. Would be interested to learn a little more.

I put little stock in the UN rankings. They are an extremely left-wing and socialist organization. They have absolutely no credibility anymore and are controlled by the European and African nations.

Regardless, I was originally pointing out that Alberta is winning because they have higher worker productivity and are more self reliant. Most importantly, they are more positive and proactive.

There is a large portion of self-entitled British Columbians. I was only recently directed to this site, and I use it on slow days as a form of comic relief.

Right or wrong, globalization is changing our back-yard. If we want to compete in this changing world, we are going to have to embrace it. Especially, when we have the powerhouses to our South and our East.

Capitalism doesn't work without democracy. Love it or hate it, the countries I mentioned have more flexible labour laws, more competitive tax regimes, and some of the fewest barriers to international trade.

Although in Germany, that shipbuilder with the same employer for 50 years probably still has his job.

Try and find a job for his kids.

Actually, it's not inevitable and already the winds of change are blowing in the US and picking up speed.

Ultimately we need to compete - if we don't, our quality of life will erode and disappear."

What you don't get is, that it is eroding and disappearing anyway-, and will continue to as the working class of the more advanced capitalist societies are dragged to the bottom in your solution scenario. Assuming we are talking the wellbeing of people here, and not the bottomline of mega-corporations.

The reality is, we do not need to compete. Certainly not in the way you suggest as an ABSOLUTE must. That is a choice mega-capitalist interests have made to widen their horizons, and give themselves a wider pool of cheap labour with which to force the rest of us to compete, to their benefit- as well as to undercut third world "self-sufficiency development" interests and agendas, and render them dependant on global corporate interests and supply. The Old Colonialism reconfigured and given a new facelift.

With the other side of that reality being, of course, there is the option of focussing our national and community development on "self-sufficiency" first as well, as opposed to this slave system of "export dependency." The only degree to which the current choice of capital is "inevitable" is the degree to which we submit and allow it, and fail to develop our own alternatives and national economic development solutions. (Example: Everything of high added value that we are now import dependant on, which are really jobs we provide others, we are entirely capable of manufacturing/producing for ourselves-, where there is the national/community will to do so.)

The over-arching reality is that we do have a choice, even choices, ignored to here only because of the popular mindset's dependency and faith based reliance on what "the masah" tells them they must do-, lest they perish.

Crap, Wingnuts! What you don't see, or more accurately refuse to see is that we, certainly not necessarily or even likely you, are already perishing, in terms of our wellbeing and security as citizens and as a nation.

But then you really bend the knee to the Washington Masah anyway. It's there and to that collaborationist ruling class at home, and elements such as yourselves, for whose interests you are really concerned and speak anyway. We know from your statements here everyday, and through all the recent labour strife we have recently passed that you don't really give a shitt about us anyway-, so cut that silly unbelievable nonsence.

And as an aside fucktards, because you are obviously not paying attention, watch for the collapse of that Empire and its place in the world that is imminent anyway, to which you bend the knee-, as it readies itself to flee Iraq. With its tail between its legs AGAIN. :-D

Hey Coyote,

I liked some of that insight there and agree with a lot of what you had to say.

You made reference to the days after WWII and indeed those days are over. Globalization has allowed us to outsource un-skilled labour. Even skilled labour (i.e. technology support) is being farmed out to India.

I believe that capitalism brings opportunities, but it also makes life a little bit harder. We are not an isolated island and we are no longer competing against the adjacent town. We are now competing against Alberta, Ontario, Washington, California and Nevada.

The new generation (under 35) is different from the old generation (over 35). Younger people in this province have (by and large) heavily supported the BC Liberals. I believe it is because they recognize the needs and benefits of change.

As the older generation continues to move on, this younger generation which is more willing and able to adapt will take its place.

People under 30 have seen so much change over the past 15 years. They don't fear change as much and I believe as a result, we will be okay in this new age of capitalism.

Ma Bell is only here for comic relief! Thanks, but what makes you think we'll laugh at that old material? Your bleating is funny but we've heard it all before. Can you come up with some new material if you want to entertain us? Do you do live shows too? I'm sure you'd have quite the salad when you're done.

The union managers should be hung out to dry starting a fight they couldn't win and making their dues paying members pay the price.

This isn't 1930 anymore, whena strike could stop the phone company from getting revenues in the door. This time nobody except the hardcore socialists noticed any service differences - it reminded of the CBC strike - like who noticed or cared.

Just a pig headed union, in one of its last dying convulsions.

The dinosaurs await the TWU . . .

One of the few things that survived after dinosaurs disappeared were cockroaches, not surprising since they feed on anything. At least dinosaurs are still contributing today in their own way

411:
All of us were able to filter the bull. Thanks for the effort.

Indeed, Joe is right. And not surprisingly, Fred and Ethel are wrong again-, revealing not only their lack of knowledge of politics, but also basic science.

The dinosaurs did not all become extinct in fact. Those that did were the Neoconazis of their day. The left wing of the dinosaurs are still with us-, as birds. :-)

Go stand in separate corners, Fred and Ethel. You are both a pair of dunces.

Ma Bell;

If I have not said it in this forum before, I certainly have elsewhere: While the "middle" muddles through periods of severe strain and crisis in the social system, tripping all over themselves and each other, as witness in the recent MLA pay raise phuck up, the hard left and right generally see the situation with the most accuracy, both of them. Which can cause the mugwamps, with their mugs on one side of the fence and their wamps on the other, to erroneously conclude that they are really one and the same phenomena. (Even one or two "lefties" here, from whom one might have expected a more insightful understanding, have made this mistake in analysis.)

What separates the hard left and the hard right however is the conclusions they draw from that more or less crudely shared understanding of reality, and from whose particular class viewpoint they perceive it and draw their conclusions, and particularly their solutionsfrom. It is at this nodal point that they diverge sharply, arriving at the polar extremes of the politics of a period and are irreconcilable enemies.

The right looks at that social and economic reality through the prism of the ruling class, either because they are part of it, placed in the class structure at least close enough that they tend to identify with it (upper middle class), or they are simply silly, simplistic dupish/thugish ********** lumpen mentalities within the working class. And that there are fair numbers of this latter element, there should be no doubt.

The left on the other hand tends to identify and draw its conclusions and responses from the perspective/viewpoint of the poor, the working class, or even "liberal" or do-gooder elements of the middle class. In any case, the philosophical/ideological conclusions they draw from their view of the same social phenomenon, for these class reasons, tends to put them in juxtaposition, at the polar opposite of the extreme right. (And this doesn't mean that in particular social conditions, witness the Stalin period in the old USSR, that the left can't mutate and look and act a lot like the extreme right, as Fait Lux has on occassion described for us. It certainly can. It is one of the risks of periods of great social crisis.)

Both, however, tend to be the hardest advocates for their class viewpoints, of which in particular periods, it is only possible for one to be left standing at the end -, or for the loser to hide and await a more favourable shifting of the sands of history, assuming a not unretrievable loss or societal change.

Being once in awhile why, because both opposites, in my view, have a more real assessment of these periods of social crisis, by and large, and what is at stake, and must be done for their chosen class side, hard left and hard right will say something that actually resonates somewhat with the other.

It doesn't mean that we can be lovers. It simply means that we are enemies with a shared view of the prize.

mabellbc rambling on:

Where in Germany are you referring to? Most major shipyards there closed down in the early 1970's when the DM was re-valued.

The shipyards that remain, do so based on ultra-modern technologies and an ultra-high-skilled workforce. Maybe that's what we should try in BC.

Whoops! Nope! We don't want to fund education.

As to more flexible labor laws and competitive tax regimes; are you sure? Sweden? Finland? And before you dismiss Finland, please study world trade figures.

As to your comments about "Capitalism doesn't work without democracy."... What's your point?

mabelbc... I'm not Kegler, I'm Ydelnesse, he's logged in & I couldn't change the name. I wanted to respond to your posts. You have a lot to say for someone who only "use it on slow days for comic relief." I see nothing comic or funny in the loss of decent paying jobs for people.
Mabel, you've had way too much of Darren's koolaid..."leading North America in wireless customer growth and customer satisfaction"..do U ever stop & think where they get these ideas from? which survey results? "Excellent community contributors," TCEF(Employees Charitable Giving Campaign)was good
until TELUS wanted to capitalise on it & use it as a marketing tool,hence many of us donate privately now,as most of our preferred charities have been struck from TELUS' list and are now ineligible for automatic paycheque deductions. Apparently donating to certain charities doesn't fit TELUS marketing bill...By the way, true charity is not done to win kudos for the donor.TELUS needs to compete? Yeah right, they continue to eradicate mercilessly any competition and are well entrenched into VOIP..they don't need my paycheque to make ends meet. Alberta continues to attract employment. Well, some of the work comes back, because they can make a pretty face of it on statistics for the shareholders but send the work back to BC to get it fixed. Higher work productivity? Ok mabel, just how was that measured? If it was done TELUS style, it's how fast, not how well. So in other words, if we screw it up and you call 50 people 50 times and talk for less than 2 minutes to each person, in the TELUS world, we think we've satisfied 50 customers with excellent customer service, whether we fix the problem or not.We have the statistics to prove it too!!Could you put your money where your mouth is please and name these respected executives at TELUS & perhaps who respects them, why? oh and maybe a few quotes from someone who matters?? I'm sorry, I didn't drink the kool-aid. I'm partial to facts. As for high taxes and government spending in Socialist countries, cry me a river. I walked past numerous people every morning on my way to the picket office, sleeping in the cold, wet outdoors under the skytrain towers in Surrey. This is where we end up when shareholders want every cent from our society they can get. The money from the products sold and the wages from the workers who help create the wealth. Perhaps you could take the time to learn more about Denmark and Finland and stop believing corporate rhetoric."People under 30 have seen so much change in the last 15 years." Just which rocks do you think the rest of us were under? Absolutely everything in my workplace has changed repeatedly in the last 5 years. Our industry is all about change.It is inevitable. We have lived and worked with it since the invention of the telephone. It's not new to any of us. Change is a daily repetetive occurrence. It's too bad many people in your age group think it's special. It's just part of the routine for us. When North American corporations have successfully farmed out our work overseas, who do you expect to be buying their high-priced products in North America? Who exactly will be paying taxes in Canada to support such socialist ideals as subsidised education? public education? healthcare? roads? airports?

"Capitalism doesn't work without democracy"

Actually it works just fine in Hong Kong, Nigeria, Mexico etc.

Just look at countries in black africa, east and central asia and others who run a capitalist system and either don't have elections, or when they do the ruling class always wins (Mexico).

You may want to study up on that.

So you don't know much about Sweden and Finland? Very successful economies with successful companies like Nokia, Ikea and so on. And whaddaya know, they're pretty much socialist.

Finland even leads the world in competitiveness.

Where does Alberta rate? Even with the Advantage of oil Alberta lags behind the Finns.

Why is that?

As for France and Germany I'd rather follow the path of countries with 35 hour work weeks, 6 weeks vacation and excellent public services than work 60 hours a week in Hong Kong, get just 2 weeks off a year and receive no public services whatsoever.

The problem with your economics mabell and Fred and Ethel is that your view of the world requires either sitting on a pool of oil or having a large underclass willing to work for you for next to nothing. Otherwise your system doesn't work. I know its sad to stop believing in Santa Claus but eventually reality will get stubborn.

I think this thread has go off on a global tangent, and those who have gone their can't get back. Far too much has been said about other countries (especially Scandanavian) and how they are faring, but far too little has been said about how we are running ours.

In the news article, in fact, Denmark was mentioned, as in "something is rotten in Denmark", a comment made by TWU spokesman, Bruce Bell, that the Federal Liberal BC Cabinet Ministers sat on their hands during the whole strike, in spite of the promises made to the TWU.

Does anyone know any more about this?

I had heard that if the issue was brought before the Canadian Industrial Relations Board the TWU would have done better. But the Feds wouldn't allow it, which is strange, because I thought Telus was regulated federally, not provincially.

Plus, I read in the Georgia Straight that the federal Liberal arm twisted all the unions to attend a big fund-raiser with Martin / Emerson / Dossanjh, etc. a while back.

Federal jurisdiction, Federal Liberal connections, but no action?

Did Entwistle give more money to the federal Liberals than the unions?

And facts and information on these fed / prov, Libs action / inaction questions?

What totally trite nonsence. It worked perfectly fine in Nazi Germany as well, and in Mussolini's Italy-, even kept the trains running on time.

It doesn't work very well however, in any democratic form over which it is not able to control the message or manipulate outcomes which favour it. Shitt! It even gets hysterical over an NDP government in BC, but musters all its forces to prevent it even fulfilling a complete term. And the NDP poses no real threat to capitalism at all, but merely wants to be allowed to make progressive sounding speeches in the legislature, while doing whatever it is capitalism really wants and needs.

Democracy allowing for the formal participation of workers, even their right to organize and strike, women and propertyless individuals, including some immigrant groups was forced on capitalism over the time since its first successful emergence in Cromwellian England. Indeed, it is even now everywhere chipping away at undoing those evolved democratic systems. (Check out the systems attempts in Australia to undo just about every right won by workers over the last one hundred years, in one fell legislative swoop.)

Democracy is not inherent in capitalism, but a pain in the ass to it. Something to be controlled and circumscribed, in defence of Big Capital "property rights".

Yes, Coyote, those 'uber' capitalists hate democracy and are working to undermine it and destroy it.

Really worthwhile and accurate comments, kegler. Wanted you to know that I enjoyed and much agreed with them.

redrivergirl,

We may disagree some on the detail and how we see particular phenomena, but we still agree on the fundamentals. You're one of my favourite political women here-, and there are a goodly number of really articulate women on this site. :-)

Always a pleasure to read ya. :-)

Why thank you, Coyote. :-)

Ya know, just sitting here sipping on a glass of Vodka, it occurred to me that I used the word "juxtaposition" wrong in that reply to mabell. Meaning of course, side by side. (No, it was not a Freudian slip. :-D

Correct would have been to said "in opposition."

Ehhhhh, I was wrong once before in my life. :-)

Sam Cooper, you have written a good labour story here.

While I would have preferred reading of advancements for the workers in areas like job security, pensions, health and safety, etc., your handling of the dilemma facing the union and its members is commendable.

It has the angst, the pain, the risk and it's got participants talking quite frankly, sometimes after a brutal beating.

It reminds me of the stuff Wilf List onced offered Globe&Mail readers.

Stay with it Sam, we need your touch.

Rumor has it the jobs are already migrating to Alberta. One BC office has had the majority of it's work taken away including answering radio and marine calls, everything goes to Edmonton.

Coyote,

Your incessant bullying and bullhorn invective overshadow any valid commentary you may have tripped over on the way to crypto-fascist-communist land. Bet you can't stand it that they're contemplating moving Lenin's cadaver from Red Sqaure - oh the ignominy.

ALL of your commentary, observations, put downs, et al. rest on anachronistic proto-socialist bullcrap - and when it doesn't - you resort to crude ad hominem attacks one other who dare to have divergent opinions. At least you could be original rather that clinging to these discursive life-jackets. Mabel - I got yo' back, girl.

Let me stoop down to your level: you are a petulant child - unable to attack arguments instead of the person who wrote them. Let's hear some reasoned arguments against the assertions of others supported by facts, logic and reason. God, why do I feel like I'm in a Monty Python sketch - how much for a friggin' intelligent argument here?

C'mon Coyote - let's hear some non-ad hominem and logically-valid (and true) counter-arguments to the following:

1. The majority of nation-states participate in some form of global economy where they trade with other nation-states.

2. This inter-national trade is increasing in both volume and value.

3. There are pricing, cost of production, et al. disparities among the nation-states that lead to trading "opportunities" where these disparities are leveraged for gain by the lower-cost producer.

4. In most of these cases, the lower-cost producer exports to to higher-cost producers forcing the higher-cost producers to alter their cost-structure - or exit these industries.

5. Where done efficiently under a (relatively) table/non-totalitarian/communist regime, said lower-cost producer invariably gains economic power and increasing prosperity for its populace.

Let's hear some good counter-arguments Coyote - and who cares that I'm an elitist, corporate mucky-muck. I dare you - I double-dare you. Bring it on. . .

...He's not in I'll transfer your call... Mr. Frome it's one of the Incredibles calling.... Put her through...

1. It used to be called trading, when there was a value and a need for it. As communities were formed it was the start of specialization where you could trade your wool for shoes. What you are talking about is trading or stealing wealth.
2. Would that be because we went from 1 billion in 1830 to over 6 billion today?
3. Exploitation.
4. Not sustainable, as it doesn't consider the cost of the resources in the first place. Not to mention the word Duty or Tarrif.
5. Could you a least quote the trash text book you plagarized with this drivel....

As you can see these issues are intertwined and form a major component of the "human condition." Concerned citizens are looking for answers to this complex problem....
Ms. Incredible, do you think for a minute those so called friends would hang around if not for the BMW and Yaletown loft? Don't you get tired of picking up the cheque all the time? Good luck with your mucky mucking. You see when you choose to dabble in that arena you have to marry it. Other wise you'd end up with too much time on your hands and it might occur to you that you've made the wrong choice. I don't have friends like that, but we see you and your type every day. You're going to go extinct one day, and one of us is going to be there to remind you that it was your choice! It's quite simple really, either you believe that Chomsky has a point or you think he's a looney! What say you?

Yes, Ms. Whigggins? No more calls, it's siesta time...

Hi clubofrome,

In each premise, you neither disputed or countered any of the arguments or the assertions - you merely relabelled them or made some off-hand dismissive comment that doesn't address the underlying issue as if this is sufficient.

You refer to Chomsky but lack the brains or balls to apply him to my arguments, instead simply invoking his name. Dude, you're either being lazy or maybe just are too contemptuous of me and my alleged Yaletown buddies to give a damn. You so readily consign me to "go extinct" one day yet lack the compassion to try and convince me through force of logic or compassion, but would rather stand on the side and remind me that it was my choice. That's cold and not very socially responsible.

If it's so important, don't you have a moral imperative to try and work for change by convincing me and others of our folly? Save me man - I'm all for being saved - please don't liquidate me comrade commissar. What I object to is being hectored by self-referential pseudo-intellectuals with fake progressive credentials.

At least the Jesus-freaks witnessing behind the Art Gallery make an effort to try and make their case. How are you going to win me to your side if all you do is denigrate me and my purported lifestyle? You know nothing about me (I drive a Lexus, for example). Or maybe it's all about trying to sound progressive by shitting over anyone else who has a different opinion and writing us all off instead of trying to engage. So again, I ask - can anyone respond to the arguments without resorting to ad hominem attacks on the author?

Finally, it's "incredulous" and not "incredible", though I find your familiarity with such a blatantly pro-capitalist-macht-ist-nacht mainstream media product to be deeply troubling. Keep it real my brutha - and stop secretly thumbing through those dog-eared BMW catalogues after you come home to your fair-trade-hemp-furniture-riddled coop after your weekly workers' jerk-off-a-thons where you all talk and do nothing. Remember, Chomsky sees all and you will be punished in the afterlife.

Yes you're right of course, but that is the case when you just "barge in" like I have done between you and Coyote. Since I know neither of you I will apologize for the intrusion, but since we have this last bit of thread to ourselves, perhaps I could address some of your concerns. I sensed that perhaps you were reaching out in your post, looking for answers, like why are we here....? You seemed to be genuinely looking for the truth, or maybe you just want a piece of Coyote. I believe Coyote is older than us so that really wouldn't be a fair fight. You and I match up better. I'm down from my playing weight of 205, now just mere shadow at 180! I still see my role as stepping in when our stars are being pushed around.... That's enough intimidation for one post, lets get to the point shall we? I liked your last paragraph, you look like a worthy opponent in a fuckyou contest, but lets just call that one a draw and go straight to the smarty pants stuff. This will give you a chance to bring on more impressive vocabulary and throw in a few more "ad hominems" ...sorry, it's all those years in the dressing room, firing back and forth.... did you play a team sport yourself? "Manufacturing Consent" should be required reading, it's surprising how many people haven't heard the term or even recognized the authors' names. Those who bash the left or us eco warriors, generally use Mikey as their target, that way they can just look at the pictures and listen while they poo poo. No real reading or research required. Herman/Chomsky aren't the most exciting authors, and is slightly less dry than say the "Origin of the Species" by Darwin, which I have started a few times but just can't seem to stay awake long enough to finish it. To dismiss these works as mere FUD or conspiracy theory is the same as you saying you don't understand my counter points to your arguements. I think you know exactly what I'm saying, if not we'll need to establish a basis for our debate. Economics, unless taught by Ed Deak is boring. Any monkey with a bit of money and influence can get in
to that game, the race to the bottom. I don't see anything that you wrote that addresses issues beyond stealing wealth for shareholders. If that's the way the "world turns" then we'll all apologize and pretend we didn't waste all this time trying to change things for the better, for everyone. Not just the lazy left wing looneys but the dangerous religeous right who probably don't even have the time for rational debate, they're too busy protesting outside an abortion clinic, to even see the rug of life being pulled out from under them. Anyways, "my fellow traveller" it's a complex problem, in general terms it's called the human condition. It's complex because of it's diversity. But it's always worth talking about. If you don't have the sense to be concerned about the future then we'll just end this right now. No sense wasting our time eh? Lexus eh? Nice. I wish I had time for cars, I race yachts...

Judge Lance Ito scores it 109 to 94 for the man in the green corner....."Cluboooooooo Fromeeeeeeeeee"

Come on...how about a standing 8 count? Don't throw in the towel, this could be the start of something good. We'll both learn something. Come back, please......I'm er sorry... There I said it. I'm sorry. How could I have known it was a Lexus....?

Thank you clubofrome - that was actually civil and very much appreciated. Team sports, sigh, aside from my recent ill-timed participation as a rookie in the McGill University Football team - haven't done the team-thing in a while.

Chomksy is great - I've read Manufacturing Consent and thought it brilliant. Though I don't agree with the big C on many issues, I can't help but respect him.

Growing-up Christian but now a VERY devout atheist (explains a lot, eh?), I reflexively recoil at rhetoric thrown down with absolutist hellfire and brimstone conviction - whether it be religious, political, economic or ecological. What I objected to was comments by Coyote and others that automatically assumed that the speaker who put forth divergent views was somehow morally bankrupt and a "bad" person. Intolerant personality judgments in lieu of a good rebuttal debases this thread as a forum for exchanging thought. It just becomes a f-ck you, f-ck you, too exchange. While I understand how compelling it is for your side to meet intolerance with intolerance - this is the easier path. Don't stoop to their level - if you want to win this fight, you need to be more engaging and -um, sneaky. Guile, manipulation of the media and opinion need not be monopolized by the bad guys, aka. the evil, schizophrenic multinational corporation. Appropriate the tools of the "masah" as Coyote wont to say for your own noble ends.

Of course, this is all moot since no one else is reading this but you and me - but thanks for the understanding. I, too, will cease with the ad hominems - except when they're clever. Hell, if we were all saints here, where would be fun in that, eh?

I still want a piece of Coyote though (you hear me Coyote?!?! I'm a-comin' fo ya - I'm gonna git that sucka). My role is critical in the dialectic plus it's all in good fun anyway.

This doesn't mean we're going steady, so don't get any ideas....
Work hard, play hard and get off the ice, make room for the next shift. We have to share this space with so many diverse views, so tolerance must be one of the corner stones of society. To be hostage to extreme views and actions must be a terrible place to be, as these issues would gnaw away at the core of your well being. Glad we can knock back a few after the game! That's the true meaning of civilized. Good you have a firm grasp of that, gives me hope for the future!

Not venturing too far past Sunday School, I still believe there is something to the spiritual side, if only to learn the golden rule. A simple and easy formula for people to follow but lost on far too many.

Thanks for engaging, I'll look forward to your future contibutions here. I'll be back in a few weeks just in time for Christmas. Until then, I'll be wasting away again in Margaritaville...