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Jim Green, The Tyee Interview
Vancouver Vision's mayoral candidate on the big split, cops, drugs, gambling, panhandlers and more.
'Maybe a lane for squeegee kids'
Also today: The Tyee interviews David Cadman of COPE and the NPA's Sam Sullivan.
"The thing I'm most proud of," says Jim Green, "is that I've helped build thousands of units of public housing, projects that have enhanced the city, received awards for urban architecture and helped people and families improve their lives."
Green claims he is "a doer," who likes to "achieve results, not just talk." His critics, particularly his NPA mayoral opponent Sam Sullivan, say he's a spendthrift whose money management imperils the city government's long-term economic well-being. On Saturday, November 19, Vancouver voters will decide if they believe he's the person to run the city.
Green has lived in Vancouver's Strathcona neighbourhood since he immigrated from the U.S. in the mid-1970s. He has six grandchildren, one now at Strathcona elementary. Green holds a Masters in Anthropology from UBC and has studied at the Sorbonne in Paris, the Millennium Film Institute in New York and the Universities of Colorado and South Carolina. He's taught opera and architecture at UBC and Anthropology at Simon Fraser University.
Green has made his mark in Vancouver, not in the ivory tower but in the street, with eastside social housing projects and a term as Mayor Larry Campbell's right hand on Vancouver City Council.
The Tyee spoke to the possible future mayor at his campaign headquarters on Hastings Street and over the phone during his busy campaign schedule. He talked about managing money, his clash with COPE, and his new "centre-left" aspirations for Vancouver.
We also interviewed COPE councillor and former mayoral candidate David Cadman and NPA mayoral contender Sam Sullivan, which will appear Friday.
Here is what Jim Green had to say…
On charges the short-lived Downtown Eastside Four Corners Community Savings bank, which paid high union wages and lost $6 million in five years, shows he can't manage money.
"The bank didn't close because it failed. The bank closed because of the ideology of the Gordon Campbell Liberals. Every new bank loses money. The Royal Bank plans on losses for seven years when they open a branch, and we started from scratch, without the infrastructure of a chartered bank. We knew we'd lose money for five years, but look what we created.
"Four Corners was the first of its kind in history. We served 6,000 customers, who otherwise had no service. We saved these people from the loan sharks and landlords who previously held their debts at high fees. Crime went down in the neighbourhood because people were able to deposit their cash. Staff and customers took pride in their community.
"We did the right thing for our staff [by paying them well], and were able to attract labour union deposits. It was just good business. We were right on our business plan when the Liberals got elected and closed it down.
"I'm extremely proud of what we accomplished. We invested in a community business that grew and succeeded, helped the community, trained welfare recipients to be bank tellers, paid fair wages and created jobs. Sam Sullivan likes to slam me for the bank, but here's something most people don't know: Sam Sullivan sat on the board. I asked him on. During his term, he never made a single motion or offered a single idea."
On NPA charges the current council's plan to use money from the city's property endowment fund to underwrite a community amenities and social housing development in the southeast False Creek undercuts the fund's objective of protecting the city's credit rating and tax rates.
"We're recycling profits back into property development that enhances the city as the fund intended. The fund was a brilliant idea initiated by Art Phillips, to acquire city property, which stabilizes our AAA bond rating. But we can do more than collect rent. We can develop these properties to increase their value, neighbourhood value and boost the reputation of Vancouver. We are investing in culture as well as buildings. It's a bigger vision.
"In Southeast False Creek, we are creating the most environmentally sound development in the world, with recycling, geothermal heat, no greenhouse emissions and a research centre for sustainable design: a model for the world. On top of that, we will get 26 acres of park for the city, a full-service community centre, and housing for 20,000 people, split equally among low, medium, and high income This is smart urban development that will grow in value, exactly as the fund intended. Same with the Woodward's project. We are investing profits back to improve the community.
"If you want to solve homelessness, you need homes. We have to understand the connection between street crime, homelessness and neighbourhood services. This council has advanced the idea of supportive housing, affordable homes for the mentally ill with wrap-around services. Wherever we do things like this, crime rates go down."
On the concern that too much social housing on the Downtown Eastside will create a problematic social mix that isn't helpful to many of those seeking to escape poverty and, often, addiction.
"That's why we're building integrated projects. The downtown eastside is 82 percent single males. They need inexpensive housing. We provide that with Woodward's, and build in 500 middle-income condominiums, community services, university space, an open plaza, treatment centres, and design features to enhance play, public use and transportation access. We don't just build boxes and collect rent, we design in community values, so people start to take pride in their neighbourhoods. It works.
"Of all our developments, I'm most proud of the Lore Krill Co-op that is right behind Woodward's. We put in 100 units of social housing. The project won the Lieutenant Governor's Award for Architecture and the Governor General's Award. The other eight winners of this federal award are all huge projects like university campuses. We won it for well-designed affordable housing. We came in on budget and on time, created something meaningful for the neighborhood, and received recognition for Vancouver."
On the most important recent architectural project in city, and the question of whether our city buildings are beautiful enough.
"The most important recent building in Vancouver is the library, because it is a landmark. It's noticeable and it represents knowledge. It welcomes people in. This is what city architecture should do: build cultural merit into the buildings; demonstrate who we are. Buildings can't just be utilitarian; they should represent us. The Shangri La does this; the Arthur Erickson buildings do this. Vancouver has both an international and a local identity and we should enhance both.
Our best chance now is with southeast False Creek. We need young, imaginative designers and builders to put these ideas to work here."
On Green's support for some big-box store projects and his opposition to others.
"Smart planning treats each site individually. There is no blanket theory. A big-box store in the wrong place can devastate a community and displace local businesses. Some of my colleagues don't get this. Sam Sullivan supports all big box stores anywhere. Ann Roberts is against them all.
"I supported a large Canadian Tire store on Grandview because it had good SkyTrain access and no neighborhood opposition. I voted against a Home Depot on Broadway -- as did everyone else but Sam -- because the neighbourhood was against it. The Wal-Mart plan made a good effort, but there were neighbourhood issues. It was in the wrong place. The Costco downtown is okay because it provides local parking, SkyTrain access, and four residential towers on top, an idea Arthur Anderson has promoted, because it supplies its own core market. This plan works. You have to think through each plan."
On why he chose to form Vision Vancouver rather than fight for his ideas inside COPE.
"We did. Larry, Raymond Louie, Tim Stevenson, and I all fought for our ideas inside COPE and on council. More often than not, we won support, because we had well-thought-out ideas. The COPE folks voted with us on many issues. Sam Sullivan voted with us on the Hastings Park slots, [NPA councillor Peter] Ladner voted with us on the bike lanes.
"However, for two years, I spent eight hours a week inside caucus, and we could never come to agreements. Some of those people don't believe in voting, so the discussions go on forever and get nowhere. They have good hearts and good ideas, but they don't know how to get things done. The process was draining and we had nothing to show for it.
"So the four of us left to form Vision Vancouver. We had to get on with it. We would have spent another year talking in circles, but we've spent that time building a party, attracting candidates, negotiating for housing projects, researching issues, meeting with city staff and designing a platform. It has been far more productive."
On whether candidates such as Chinese Benevolent Association President George Chow could have been brought into the COPE coalition.
"No. But COPE, I must say, has been extraordinarily reasonable about it, to the point of not running a mayor candidate against me. We can still work together. Coalition-building is what civic politics is all about: learning how to get things done in large groups with many ideas and ways to do things."
On whether, when trying to get financial support for provincial or federal governments, it is important for the city council to speak with one voice.
"Well, it would be best, but this is the most difficult thing to do. Someone is always in opposition. The Woodward's final vote was 9-1, with Sullivan against. It helps, when approaching the province or the federal government, to speak with a unified voice. We have a good history of negotiating with the feds. We built 200 social housing units with out-of-province financing. We got the Woodward's property for a third of its stated value. We can work well with senior governments.
"Woodward's is a model of how we build community coalitions. We're working with local residents, advisory committees, developers, SFU, the Gastown Business Improvement Association, non-profit organizations, the federal government, the province, Chinatown groups, everyone working toward a common goal: a better community."
On whether Vision can work with the NPA councillors.
"Sure. Like I said, both Ladner and Sullivan voted with us on certain projects. You have to have sound ideas that answer to a broad base. "
On Sam Sullivan's best qualities.
"He speaks Cantonese. That's a nice thing. I wish I could. Sam will vote in favor of housing for the mentally ill. I appreciate that."
On Sullivan's biggest weakness.
"Sam talks one way and votes the other. I don't like that. It's hypocritical. He voted against every aspect of the Woodward's housing, and now he says he's in favour of it. He claims to support social housing, but he has never created a single unit of housing, and he's throwing water on some of the best projects in the city."
On the effectiveness of the "four pillars" drug strategy, given that dealers still operate openly in Vancouver alleys and NPA charges that Green overstates the safe injection site's effectiveness.
"Yes, it's working. I maintain we've saved over a thousand lives at the safe injection site. Of course, not everyone uses it. We probably serve the 10 percent [that's] most vulnerable. But it is there for them, and it saves lives, along with treatment centres, housing, jobs and everything else we're attempting to do. You have to approach these social problems from the big perspective.
"Yes, crystal-meth is a serious problem. But the NPA's 'crystal-meth task force' is just an election slogan. The Western Canadian Summit on Drugs recommended a comprehensive approach, not a special task force for one drug. You don't start by doing the one thing the recommendations say don't do! We have to simultaneous address the symptoms and the causes. We address the symptoms with harm-reduction strategies such as the injection site.
"We address the causes by improving people's lives in the community, with housing and treatment. We've added a fifth 'pillar' which is job creation. Drugs are a part of the fabric of poverty, feelings of uselessness, kids self-medicating for depression, underground economies linked into the sex trade, pimps, innocent kids abandoned, with nowhere to go. We have to solve the problem at that end.
"Yet pimps and drug dealers appear to operate with impunity in our city. What's the solution?
"Pimps get young kids hooked on drugs and turn them out in the sex trade to pay for their habit. The police know this, but the courts are clogged, it is very hard to get a conviction and the police feel frustrated. We have to work with 'equivalencies,' accomplishing the goal with indirect means. To help solve child prostitution, for example, we can bust the johns. If the girl is 13, the guy goes away to jail. If not, maybe he walks, but he won't come back and it will discourage others. If we can't rely on the courts, we have to find other ways to get rid of the pimps preying on the most vulnerable kids in our city."
On the idea that a red-light district would protect sex trade workers, and COPE councillor Tim Louis's notion that the city could run a "non-profit" brothel.
"They'd be the first pimps in history that never made any money. Operating a city brothel is not a good idea. Licensing a red light district is probably a workable solution, but it's very difficult politically. No one wants to appear in favour of prostitution, but getting the sex trade off the street would improve neighbourhoods and save lives. We already license massage parlours, so there is a precedent."
On whether we need more police and how we'd pay for them.
"Sullivan's idea of a crime prevention commissioner was an insult to police chief Jamie Graham, who already does that job. It shows a misunderstanding of how things work in the city of Vancouver. We already get coordination, deliverables and crime studies. There is no need to add a $700,000-per-year bureaucrat between the mayor and the police chief.
"I met with Chief Graham and asked him about gaining efficiencies in the department. "How?" He asks. He's already working to operate as efficiently as he can. The fact is, if we want more police services, we need the budget to provide them. The salary for another bureaucrat as NPA proposes, would be better spent for more officers on the street.
"I met with Tom Stamatakis, head of the police union, and he expressed concern with Sullivan as chair of the police board. Sam gave money to a drug-addicted prostitute to buy crack cocaine. This is illegal and would normally eliminate someone from police work. It was irresponsible. He didn't drive her to the safe injection site. What if she had OD'd? Sam showed poor judgment here.
"I follow the advice of Larry Campbell. He was an RCMP officer and city coroner. He knows the reality of reducing crime and drugs and working with the police."
On his support for allowing slot machines at Hastings Park Racecourse, when gambling is a potential addiction that can create real social problems.
"Yes, gambling can be a social problem, but it is also legitimate entertainment. We license and tax cigarettes and alcohol, which are far worse. People who want to gamble can travel to Richmond, and we still have the social problem.
"I supported the slot machines at Hastings Park for a simple reason: jobs, and specifically 800 entry-level jobs for poor, immigrant women and with English language courses offered. This helps people get a start and improves their lives. We will eventually get about 2,400 jobs for people who will spend their wages in their communities and reduce the burden on government services."
On whether the $1.72-billion Richmond-Airport-Vancouver transit megaproject is the best way to spend resources for local transport, and whether it will cannibalize the TransLink bus system.
"There could be some problem there, yes. But the RAV line also could reduce the need for buses. There are also issues of fuel costs and emissions, long-term. We bought 300 new buses and need more. We improved service on Main Street, allowing buses to control the traffic lights.
"But the RAV line is important. We want to extend the millennium line because of high use for east-west traffic. We are proposing free buses downtown and a shuttle to Stanley Park.
On whether the city has gone overboard with speed bumps, blockades, and other forms of "traffic calming".
"There are speed bumps and speed humps. They do a good job. We have to slow down traffic in neighbourhoods to make them safer and more livable. When I go home, I have to take a less direct route because of the blockade. It takes me a minute longer, no big deal, and the streets are safer.
"Maybe in some cases, it has been overkill, but if that's someone's worst complaint, I'd say they live a nice life in a good city."
On his concerns about a new soccer stadium downtown.
"The soccer stadium plan is a very creative idea, essentially producing real estate out of thin air. It could be great for soccer and for the downtown. However, I did have some concerns. To start off with, the developer upset some local residents and businesses, and insulted the city staff. This was a bad beginning. They need to learn how to do business with the city. They were just inexperienced in this."
On the debts left by the failed Sea Vancouver festival, to which the city directed $477,000 in funding.
"The Sea Vancouver festival lost money and the liability to creditors remains with the non-profit organization. Perhaps we on the city council should have been more aware, since we had not seen all the studies. This is often the case that the councillors can't actually keep up with all the studies on all the issues. We endorsed the event, but we did not contract with the creditors."
If politics presented no barrier, what radical, crazy idea would Jim Green implement to improve city life?
"Okay, I see a guy opening cab doors in Yaletown for tips. Here's a guy trying to work. We might think of this person as a nuisance, but I want to find some way to harness that energy of jobless, homeless people who want to contribute to society or offer a services. Some people find the squeegee kids a nuisance, but they're trying to be useful, rather than beg on a corner. Maybe there's some way the city could help put these people to work. Maybe create a special lane, where people could pull over to get their windows cleaned. The thing is, we need to find ways to allow people to help, weed out the aggressive behaviour, and cut down on panhandling. The solution shouldn't be highly structured. It should be simple, but should harness the human potential."
Rex Weyler is a veteran Vancouver journalist and author of Greenpeace (Raincoast, 2004), a history of the environmental group's early years in Vancouver.
Also today: The Tyee interviews David Cadman of COPE and the NPA's Sam Sullivan. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Grumpy
6 years ago
Comments on "Jim Green, The Tyee Interview"
Er, Jim Green, you did not buy 300 new buses. TransLink did and how many old buses will be retired? whay will be the net gain in bus service?
Here's a new's flash Tyee - Green, according to DRavRight, the cost of RAV is now $2.2 billion.
RAV may reduce the need for buses, because potential customers will abandon RAV and Transit for cars! Except for a very few, RAV will increase jouenry times!
Again, here we have a politician utterly ignorant about transit. Hey Jim, I got some Bre-X shares for you, oh and if you like that, I also have some BRICK shares!
As I said before, it is a choice between tweedle dee & tweedle dum for mayor.
Stuart
6 years ago
No political party is perfect, they all make mistakes that they wish they could go back on.
I went to the all candidates meeting last night at the Lamplighter in Van and found COPE
and Vision to be very passionate and very wonderful people, they are very community
based and have values their not afraid to stand up for. We must get the vote out, the
NPA would be a disaster, their communications rep also does public relations for
Wal Mart, we cannot let these corporate lackeys back in city hall. It's up to you
if you want the Fraser Pimpstitute running city hall or left wing values of equality
social justice and community based democracy were citizens come first,
Unlike what the MSM says COPE has fulfilled 90% of its platform, it has a platform that
guides it's actions. unlike NPA that has no platform and is unaccountable to no one
because nothing is written down.
COPE has accomplished allot for the regular citizen.
Click here for the list of accomplishments.
http://www.cope.bc.ca/issues-city.htm
barryjo
6 years ago
Mr. Green states "we've saved over a thousand lives at the safe injection site"
Actually the report card for the first year of operation shows that in the DTES overdose rates were up 28 percent compared to a 8 percent decrease in the rest of the province.
I wonder how in just over one year they could have saved 1000 lives when the yearly OD death rate is less than a quarter of that. Mr. Green concedes the safe injection site only serves less than ten percent of addicts in the DTES so his numbers are really, really over inflated. Politicians heh, now they are endorsing legalization of all drugs in a letter sent to Ottawa. That will really help, the addicts will still be stumbling around loaded out of their minds and any saving the taxpayers get from not having their property stolen will be offset by skyrocketing taxes that will be necessary to provide the infastructure to pay for all the drugs and related programs to keep the addicts loaded and a drain on society. Given that addicts can stop and I know thousand that have, why spend money enabling, how about "you want to use drugs life will be tough, you want to change we'll help you"
Stuart
6 years ago
barryjo
We can all play the #'s game but even if the #'s are exaggerated the point still remains that the safe injection sites save lives and money. Do you know the health care costs via your tax money that goes into servicing HIV and hepatitis patients, its huge. Even if we keep a few from getting sick
we are breaking even tax wise. Filling the jails does not seem to have helped.
Its the more compassionate way to deal with people, it treats addiction like an illness and is more reality based (no one wishes for such sickness) , the conservative approach of tough love and more police has failed us over the last 3 decades so we are going to try and be more compassionate. This not only gives the addict a chance to talk to a straight person about treatment it hurts the pushers on the street. It's a brand new program and needs to be more widespread and not just on the DES, we
cannot solve big problems with the same thinking that caused them.
""you want to use drugs life will be tough"
This kind of mentality is what has failed us, I and others are not willing to just write of an entire population of sick people, how many have to suffer and die while you try and find your humanity.
Stuart
6 years ago
Lets use the "life is tough analogy"
How should we treat those who drive to fast and end up in accidents, how about those with bad diets or those who smoke. Should we refuse all medical care to these people and just tell them life is tough and trying to help you via medical care is just enabling the behavior, you think your going to get chemo, sorry loser its your problem get lost and die somewhere.
rikia
6 years ago
Stuart,
Are you Jim Green?
just wondering
barryjo
6 years ago
Stuart
The compassionate way to deal with addicts is to not keep feeding them the poison that has reduced their lives to what they have become. Cancer patints get chemo not more of the cancer, by the same token addicts shouldn't get more of the drugs that are killing them neither, recovery for addicts is the antidote much like chemo is for the cancer patient.
All most addicts have to do is stop using and their lives will improve dramatically and most of them have the capacity to do so. Actually many of them on the DTES have been to treatment and made a concious choice to go back to using, there are consequences in life for all negative choices.
I am a recovering addict and a big part of my life is dedicated to getting addicts off the streets.
You say the safe injection sites save lives but the statistics say otherwise, you say they hurt the dealers but the addicts still have to buy the drugs, how does that hurt dealers.
As for HIV and hep C, the needle exchange in Vancouver pioneered the free needle programs and were the biggest in North America at one time and guess what, Vancouver ended up with the highest rates of hep C per capita in the developed world.
These programs don't work, they don't save lives, they simply supportthe reduction of the addicts life of misery and suffering and cost the taxpayers a lot.
Kids are suffering waiting for surgey because of a lack of funding for beds, there are instances of the elderly dying in the hospital waiting room after waiting for hours to see a doctor, I think we better first allow funding to help those who don't have a choice in their situation.
As for funding, if you are an addict you have to wait for quite a period of time before you can go to treatment but if you want free methadone you can get it on demand. Until there is funds for treatment on demand we shouldn't be funding initiatives that only support addiction.
As for the analogy of treating those who smoke have bad diet or car accidents, they live with the results of their negative consequences much like the addict and they all get hospital treatment for acute symptoms but I don't think there are harm reduction programs for smokers, people with bad diets or poor drivers YET.
canuck_cougar
6 years ago
I have always voted COPE across the board. Not this year and especially not with Jim Green (formerly of COPE) running for mayor. I will not even vote for him to keep Sam Sullivan out of the mayor's office. My gut tells me Jim Green is not to be trusted. Added to my mistrust of Mr. Green and some of the other Vision candidates is my anger over the vote to allow slots at Hastings Park. Any city councillor who voted in favour of the slots is not getting my vote. And Tim Louis is not getting my vote again just because I think he is an obstructionist pain in the butt who often seems more interested in creating controversy or disrupting council meetings.
Check out what the Georgia Straight has to say about the 2 "main" mayoral candidates:
http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=14181
Stuart
6 years ago
Look barryjo
It's great that you an recovering addict, it's great that you have been successful. Many folks have recovered from addictions your way. But just because it works for you does not mean other things cannot or will not
work, basically if you see addiction rates across the country and especially in places like the DTES the situation is getting worst. Building bigger prisons and putting more police on the ground and calling for tough love and you live with you own choices argument does not wash, and is much to easy
to dismiss people and do nothing. The safe injection sites are about trying something new that is more compassionate and have not come without controversy. God, Fox news was even criticizing Vancouver Like we need advise from the conservative religious kooks in the US to help us. The purpose of a safe injection
site is to confront the user who is otherwise isolated and never talks to straight folks, give him a clean needle to avoid infection and to get him into treatment. As you know many programs take money and time to see the
results, you cannot get results overnight. I say give it time , we have to much to lose to try nothing. And as you know most programs fail more than they succeed.
Addicts are sick people that can be preyed upon, Overdose deaths are down in Van, and the dealers have less power when the drugs are free. My reference to bad drivers and smokers is this, they have bad habits and have caused their own suffering so should we refuse to help them or take the opportunity and help no matter what.
Remember just because one way works does not mean others can't
Oh and canuck_cougar, get your as** out and vote, I am also very pissed and disenfranchised by Jim Green and sell out Larry, I hate the slots, Rav line , Olympics etc, but their are some really good things that COPE has done and they need our support , vote get them in and get involved and kick Jimmy out.
Oh rikia, don't you something to do, Like drive across town to Wal Mart, there is the greeter who knows your name and lots of sweat shop stuff just waiting for hyper consumers like you.
Stuart
6 years ago
Can anyone name one thing, one change that Sam S has done in his 12 yrs in council, one accomplishment. Anyone
canuck_cougar
6 years ago
Hey "Stuart" did I say I wasn't going to vote PERIOD?! Read my post again. Yes, that's right, I mentioned WHO I wasn't voting for.
Sparkyboy
6 years ago
ooh, ooh, Green attended the Sorbonne, how impressive, he certainly seems to have done an amazing number of things...according to him. for how long and what courses did he take or complete.
how long EXACTLY did he drive cab? Every freakin middle or lower/middle class guy in Vancouver has pulled at least a few shifts in a cab
what courses and degrees does he actually have...from the Sorbonne?
I went to Harvard ....for hot dog and a coke once.
Sullivan isn't a master of uber self promotion like Green. He's done a great deal of tough work for many non profit organizations...just not the sexy ones the neosocialist imposters love to drone on endlessly about. I think its hilarious that Sam has scooped Green's favourite image of himself ..that of the everymans underdog. Sam truly is an underdog who has overcome a tough physical disability among other things and accomplished a great deal. He doesn't have the self broadcast skills of Green.
Oh by the way why did Green lose "the man in black routine" a little too contemporary for the broad appeal he hopes to attract
barryjo
6 years ago
Stuart,
You keep saying the safe injection site is working, overdose deaths are up in Vancouver not down as you state, try driving down the alley behind the safe injection when it is OPEN and you will see addicts shooting up in the alley and needles laying around.
As for your mention of legalizing drugs, twelve years of research shows that any time in history when drugs are legalized the results are very negative. As far back as the eighteen hundreds China legalized Opium and an estimated HALF of the population became addicted in just ten years.They had to make it illegal again to get it under control. In the U.S. prescription heroin was legal from 1914-23 but had to be discontinued because people abused the priveledge and addiction rates soared. In Sweden prescription heroin was legal for addicts from 1965-67 and once agin the process was abused and addiction rates increased. At one time Sweden embraced harm reduction but has since changed its philosiphy as it became apparent it didn't work. They now have a three pillar program which consists of prevention treatment and control measures. They still have methadone for addicts but it is much harder to get on the program, they try to encourage treatment. These are only a couple of examples, there are so many.
It's funny Larry Campbell and friends are always trumpeting the Swiss harm reduation programs but I have talked to many Swiss addicts in addiction and in recovery and they say it's a joke, all smoke and mirrors and flawed statistics.
Don't get me wrong I believe Phillip, Larry, and now Jim and Sam have the best of intentions its just that they have been indoctrinated by the harm reduction masters and unless you really do a lot of research you can be fooled by the push for legalization. The big drug companies would love to have drugs legal and they are doing everything in their power to make it happen. Check out any harm reduction conference and see who the main sponsors are, actually one is coming to Van. next year and guess who one of the main the sponsors is. When you understand publicly traded companies and how they have to grow constantly to appease the shareholders, then you will understand why the push is on for drug legalization. The publicly traded pharma companies will become the pushers making billions and trillions in profits and the addicts will remain the slaves.
Stuart
6 years ago
barryjo
Time will tell, no matter where you stand on the issue you will always have folks who oppose or support something pull out their facts and figures, they will insist the other is wrong and scour the planet for negative
examples, I never said I was right , I said I support the effort as the status quo is a dismal failure . Tougher and dumber only succeeds in filling our prisons with addicts, the DES is bad because it has been neglected
by folks who have washed their hands of it, yep its their own fault so let them rot . Like CKNW says, its just a natural symptom of a growing city, don't sweat it.
Sparkyboy says
"He's done a great deal of tough work for many non profit organizations"
Just like I said, NOTHING, Sammy has no tangible results in 12 yrs, oh yea. He defeated the ward system, what an awful idea to have a council member accountable to a certain neighborhood.
And sparkyboy , people should be proud of their accomplishments, those who resent this usually don't have any.
"canuck_cougar"
Whatever, vote for who you like , remember COPE fought hard against the slots, see what the NPA does when they take power, see what happens to the East side, be careful for what you wish for. You want the Gordo farm crew go ahead,
barryjo
6 years ago
Stuart,
The bottom line is that history and present day facts and statistics tell us what will work and what won't.
In a perfect world we could have harm reduction for drugs but until we have health care for the general public in a timely fashion without lengthy waits for treatment, until we can afford to fund a proper traffic infastructure without constant gridlock etc., and until an addict can get treatment in a reasonable amount of time we really can't afford to fund initiatives like safe injection sites and free NAOMI heroin that simply prolong addiction.
There will come a day, and I think it will be soon, when taxpayers say "enough is enough" unfortunately that day isn't here yet, but when it comes they will vote for candidates that believe in something other than the DTES harm reduction/drug legalization agenda.
kirk
6 years ago
I heard Green make this argument a few times. He also said that if Vancouver didn't have slots, people would drive to Richmond or Burnaby anyway.
Read his comments again and replace "casino" with "Walmart".
This is why people like me can't stand politicians.
"I voted for A it because it is blue."
A week later....
"Of course I voted against B, didn't you see it was blue?"
Sigh.
Another thing that is bugging me is that that condo king guy Bob Rennie has been for weeks pushing for Green. And then, surprise, two days ago in the Vancouver Sun, there's a TWO PAGE, FULL COLOUR AD for Woodwards with Bob Rennie's logo in the corner. I wonder how much money Rennie would lose if Woodwards died.
And, of course Jamie Graham will be against anything that questions his boys' club authority. I'd like to hear Pivot's opinion on this one.
Argh.
COPE has the most honest politicians. With Bass and Louis, you never get this political baggage. Tell it like it is. If I don't agree, at least you gave me an honest answer.
I'm so frustrated. The damn Federal debate will have even more of this "Did I say that? I didn't say that. I don't recall" crap.
Working Man
6 years ago
Barryjo, excellent comments but you already know this fact: the bleeding hearts that make up the left in BC know absolutely nothing about the reality of addiction and poverty. It makes them somehow feel good to throw money at the problem and further facilitate the disfunctional lifestyle prevelant on Hastings Street.
This is why people such as you, Barryjo, are never featured in any kind of public debate on issues of homelessness and additction; this would destroy the ideology of the nice, white,middle class "we know better than you" who claim to care about these problems but in the end only facilitate it.
Good work, Barryjo.
barryjo
6 years ago
Thanks working man,
I have asked both Jim Green and Sam Sullivan if I could have just a few minutes of their time to talk about real solutions to the problem but no luck.
I wanted to talk to them about some very unique yet umcomplicated social enterpise initiatives that would create job training opportunities for those wanting to escape the cycle, while at the same time creating a revenue stream to further the causes of those that would be sponsoring the venture.
The project would have an environmental solution component and it would be a win/win situation for the community as well as the environment.
I don't know if it's that they don't want to look outside the box for real solutions or that they are so locked in to harm reduction programs that do nothing to address the root causes of addiction and they can't seem to see or think beyond that mindset.
BCTV heard about what we were doing, hiring only addicts that want to change and featured my company on the Global news hour a while back because they thought it was a good thing but trying to talk to politicians about it is another story.
I hope it will change one day until then I have decided to start speaking out and have a bit of a voice in the matter. All the time and effort to date and the DTES is in worse shape than ever.
Working Man
6 years ago
Bartjo, as you realise, empowering addicts would also end the poverty industry that has funded people like Jim Green for years.
Sparkyboy
6 years ago
If ALL of the public funding support that is poured into "the downtown eastside" was totalled up from all levels of govt there would be tens of thousands of $'s available on an annual basis for every man women and child in the area....but of course that includes as Working Man has pointed out..
managers, supervisors , support staff, fax machines, offices, blackberries, cell phones, car allowances, photocopiers, office furniture, offices, seminars, conventions, courses, boxes of doughnuts for meetings, working lunches and dinners....etc etc etc...not to mention as was pointed out in a Courier Newspaper article a couple of years ago funds to buy a bar so that DERA employees who were supposedly recovering alcoholics would have somewhere to go to have a few brewskis while they were off work on stress leave....
kirk
6 years ago
I once read that there are over 150 groups actively working on behalf of the people in the DTES. This is almost an industry by itself. I wonder how many people this employs.
It reminds of that old conspiracy theory that they cured cancer but would never let it get out because cancer research employs thousands of people and makes millions of dollars.
Seriously, I know groups in the DTES do important work, but I can't help but think there must be overlap and inefficiencies in having so many.
darcy.mcgee
6 years ago
You know, this is a legitimate comment when expressed with the kind of reservations it has been. It's a very real issue.
There are many many people on the downtown east side who need a tremendous amount of help. There's no doubt about this.
There are many many people on the Downtown East Side who are beyond help as well. We as a society could throw an endless number of resources at the problem, and some of these people would not be helped.
There is a self-sustaining culture of dependance that can exist. There are people who work down there who wouldn't know how to get a job that didn't depend on getting money from the government. A lot of them.
There are also people who work down there who fight for noble causes and help people who badly needed. There's nothing wrong with pointing out the former, as long as the latter is recognized.
Separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, is one of the major challenges facing government. When government's strategies are driven by ideology, it doesn't tend to get done well. The ideology of the left, I tend to think, creates a culture of dependence on taxation and government largesse.
Government needs to provide more and better support to those who ARE doing good work; the ones who are truly making change happen, and affecting peoples lives. These people should be supported.
Jim Green is driven by the ideology of the left, and is unable to separate the wheat from the chaff in my view. COPE has been completely ineffective when it comes to cleaning up the Downtown East Side, and Green's 20 year campaign (against governments of all ideologies) has done nothing but perpetuate this problem; Woodwards will do the same.
redrivergirl
6 years ago
Um, darcy? The NPA had the downtown east side as well.
Tell that to the CEO of Accenture, Maximus, the upper management at the health authorities, resource company execs etal. etal. and all the BC Liberal MLAs and their staff.
Darcy, it isn't only what would happen to those who can not be helped if we as a society didn't try, it is what would happen to our society.
redrivergirl
6 years ago
I want to qualify the above post by saying I am not in agreement with much of the political ideology in the DTES. However, I don't think it matters if there are people employed providing services there who would not be able to work anywhere else. There are many who would not be able to work there! And, as well, better people should be employed and feeling good about themselves. imo
redrivergirl
6 years ago
[it is] better people should be employed...
redrivergirl
6 years ago
In fact I the one thing I agree with Milton Friedman is what he called 'a cost of doing business, the negative income tax solution to poverty. That and the legalization and thus prescription available, inexpensive drugs for addicts and enough supports for mentally ill and for those who want treatment (understanding it is a health issue, not a moral one) is what I think would solve a lot of these problems. This would return the DTES to what skid rows used to be years ago. 12 step is a great abstinent program and I believe abstinence is the best thing for an addict, but what we're doing isn't working. (Barryjo - good for you for getting clean - that works for you and that's great - it works for many addicts and I too think harm reduction is valid only in a very small part of the solution, not as the primary model!!, yet I think we have to do something very different now) I think ultimately we will go that way. If any of Friedman's policies survive after the mess they're making is complete, neg income tax could be the one to survive. I think we will ultimately legalize and make the treatment and handling of addiction a very clinical health issue. Which is what it is.
squishy
6 years ago
Good on you, David Beers, for making the candidates say something nice about their arch-rivals. In a pile of typical, unavoidable political rhetoric, this question shines -- it brings a greatly-lacking touch of decorum to the campaign and it also tells a lot about the candidate when asked to say something positive about the enemy. Congratulations.
barryjo
6 years ago
redrivergirl,
What we are doing isn't working is not totally correct, I know thousands of people who are off drugs completely, many from the DTES. Sadly, giving addicts free drugs won't get any more off the drugs it will only cost Joe/Jill taxpayer through the nose to pay the publicly traded pharma companies to supply the drugs and people will only tolerate it so long and as in every other case I have found in history where drugs were legalized the rates of addiction soared and the leglization was reversed.
Not to mention that the two legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco cost our health care system more than all the illegal drugs do combined. It's no coincidence, legal drugs are more commonly used and their negative consequences cost society more. Imagine our city where meth and crack are legal and smoked in public everywhere, you would see a lot more new youth in addiction than we do now that is a given.
Sweden tried harm reduction years ago and they even prescribed heroin to addicts from 1965-67, it was a disaster and now they have a three pillar program prevention, abstinence and control measures. They still have limited harm reduction with about six to eight hundred addicts on methadone compared to thirteen thousands on methadone in Switzerland. I think Sweden is doing a lot better but all the politicians don't notice because they are so focused on harm reduction.
Addiction is here to stay regardless of what we do, the more we enable the addict the more they don't want to quit and that is a big waste of money. The only thing we can't give the addict is the desire to quit and with free legal drugs most will never find that desire.
Working Man
6 years ago
barryjo,
Do not confuse Holier than Thou, comfortable, white Socialists like redrivergirl with the facts. Her type perfers the "shovel money at addicts and make somebody else pay for it" model over all others. In fact, in their mind, there is not other model. Know your place and get back on dope; then she can help you.
barryjo
6 years ago
Workingman
I think redrivergirl means well but she is like the countless others who have been indoctrinated by the harm reduction message.
It sounds logical enough and it would probably work if addiction wasn't such an insidious and progressive disease. Harm reduction creates the inpression that drugs are not so dangerous, a preception that undoubtably increases drug use. Harm reduction startegies undermine and destroy prevention messages and they prolong addiction. Harm reduction is actually harm promotion because it asks society to accept drug use by adults and youth, alleging that drugs can be used safely and responsibly and that just isn't the case for addicts. Also harm reduction attempts to reduce the physical consequences of drug use without reducing the use of drugs and that is impossible.
We are all entitled to our opinions and redrivergirl has hers for whatever reason and I wish her well.
Working Man
6 years ago
Excellent observations. I have seen, first hand, the effect of drug addiction on close friends, normal middle class people who threw their productive lives away. There is no way you can say to an addict "Just smoke enough rock to get by." They are going to smoke as much as they can get into their bodies and do whatever they have to get it. I wonder what the addicts down on Hastings say when they hear about the "Four Pillars?"
Socialists do not know what these people say because nobody has ever bothered to ask them. They are laughing their asses off, that is what.
barryjo
6 years ago
The irony of the whole harm reduction thing is that most of the proponents of it are anti big corporation, anti business, civil libertarians and they don't realize or care that the whole notion of harm reduction plays right into the hand of the biggest stock market corporations in the world, the drug manufacturers.
The addicts still suffer in misery, they just have a different dealer, the drug companies who will amass billions and trillions of extra cash if they get their wish to legalize all drugs, and the anti this and anti that civil libertarians dance to the harm reduction masters as unpaid salesmen for the drug companies.
The taxpayers pay for the services to provide the drugs, the pharma companies make a killing and skid row remains the bottomless pit it has been forever with the bottom getting deeper and deeper as more money keeps pouring into the hole.
Yammer
6 years ago
Barryjo
The argument against criminalization goes beyond harm reduction.
There is also the harm of restricting supply. This simply creates illegal suppliers.
The key is to reduce demand.
Unfortunately I am unable to think of evils which have gone down without coercive state intervention. Trans-fatty acids, maybe.
barryjo
6 years ago
Yammer,
Your are correct, the key to disrupting the demand is have Quality treatment options for those who want to change their lives as well as very serious consequences for the dealers who sell the poison. As well, a form of harm reduction for those that can't stop, there are some who are incapable but they are a very small percentage of addicts. They have done this in Sweden and it works well.
I just got home from Yaletown, went there with four addicts in recovery to start a job at Helmecken and Hamilton and there were two guys sleeping in the doorway of the building we were entering. One guy woke up so I said hi and I notice he had an accent when he said hi back. I asked where are you from, he said Quebec, I ask him why are you here living on the street. He said it's warmer here than it is in Quebec in the winter. I asked him if they use drugs and he said with a smile "that's why we stay here year round, you never have to get dope sick in Vancouver".
Word of Vanouver must travel via the grapevine as I drove down a few alleys and there were more people sleeping in alleys than I have ever noticed before.
Vancouver a mecca for drug pilgrims, a real feather in the cap.
Bobb999
6 years ago
Stolen Election! This reminds me of the infamous butterfly ballot in Florida that cost Al Gore the US presidency.
If Independent (and unknown) James Green's name had not appeared on the ballot, Jim Green likely would have received James' 4000+ votes, putting Jim Green over the top by about 500 votes, so says a Shaw TV commentator. The election was stolen.
James Green's name appeared just above Jim's on the ballot. The "Vision" party tag next to Jim's name was miniscule in size. People with poor eyesight easily could have found it illegible. Vancouverites whose first language isn't English may have had difficulty differentiating between the two Greens. People hurrying could easily have located the first Green on the list and ended up voting the wrong Green!
No other Independent received $4000+ votes or even close, especially an unknown.
"James Green" diverted votes away from Jim Green, IN ERROR!
THE MAYOR'S RACE WAS A STOLEN ELECTION!
Sam Sullivan's mayorship is about as legitimate as Hosni Mubarak's recent election "win" in Egypt.
So much for democracy.
Working Man
6 years ago
SQUEEEEEEELLLLLL....
I love listening to the lefties squeal. Of course, it was all a conspiracy. It could never be anything the left has done.
The silent majortity has spoken.
Wallace
6 years ago
Who paid for the James Green candidacy? It will all come out in the end, but too late for this election. It is trite to say shame on the corporate press for virtually ignoring this fraud. However, I expect now that Vancouver's one ward system has returned power to its base, that the corporate press will now get on the story to demonstrate a lack of bias. All too predictable, non-Working Man.
Working Man
6 years ago
There you go again, Wallace. How about taking some responsibility for your defeat? Why not ask "Why did we lose?"
But that is impossible, isn't it?
Bobb999
6 years ago
Does the "James Green" factor mean that in future elections, just to level the field, opposing sides will each be required to go through the phone book to find and recruit a Vancouverite with a near identical name to the opponent's?
Vision could have recruited a "Sam Sullivan 2" to run as an independent. They didn't because Jim Green (unlike NPA)is above such anti democratic sleaze.
But in future Vision/Cope will have every right to recruit such a diversionary candidate, if the other side again does so - to ensure a democratic election where the will of the voters is reflected in the outcome (unlike this
travesty).
There is no doubt the James Green effect had a real impact in causing confusion. The number of votes he got tells the tale.
Also, Vision conducted focus groups with mock ballots to see if voters could be confused by "James Green". Sure enough, they found some people chose James when they intended Jim - as occurred in the actual election.
This mayor's race was stolen.
Mayor Sullivan has about the same legitimacy as Robert Mugabe who "won" the Zimbabwe election recently.
Working Man
6 years ago
Bobb, do not insult people who do not agree with you. Look inward and find out why you lost. Example: Showing up at the Centoph with a picture of Che Guvera on your chair. Being Holier than Thou; telling us how to live our lives.
That is why you lost, Bobb.
dangrice.com
6 years ago
Bobb, JG2 received about 526 votes more than the spread, which is easily on par with what a no name independent routinely gets. (scott yee, per say) Also, take into consideration the press coverage he received. Including the TYEE, and others. Add to that the fact that NPA council candidates topped the polls. I bet you 70% of his votes were from disgruntalled COPE voters who intentionally voted against the man who killed their party or general libertarians who will vote for any non-party alternative. (such as I did for School and Parks, and Mayor last election)
But we will never know, which I guess will haunt Jim Green. (From what I hear he is a little paranoid to begin with) I'm not sure if he believes in Karma, but if I'm correct that some COPE intentionally voted for James (as supporting Sam may have been out of their comfort range), then it may be a bittersweet result.
Stuart
6 years ago
My take on the election night.
Holding power for the progressives in Vancouver was so important, it was much more important than party politics, for a party like the NPA to go from 2 seats to council control allot of mistakes had to happen
I blame it on 3 main mistakes.
1) Larry Campbell - COPE is a party of progressive voices that took years to build with allot of hard work involved, they went out and found Larry to run for them in 2002, Larry was not bigger than the party, but considered himself above the party. He was basically an actor more concerned with public image than party policy, his arrogance and vanity helped divide a strong party that took years to build. He lacks integrity and throws fits every time someone disagrees with him, for example when The Bus Riders Unions were protesting a fare increase he got angry and called them a bunch of losers. (excuse me Larry but this is a grass roots group from the east side that supports you) You would never hear Sam calling his core supporters losers, If you look at the demographics its almost 70% of young voters that support COPE. Larry basically did anything that made himself look good in the media and abandoned the party's core values, I think this is because he considered the success of the party only rode
on him, if he had integrity he would have stood behind the party values or he should not have run.
2) Unity, the NPA ran a complete unified slate , I am sure they disagreed on issues but did not let it show, they all stayed together and ran a strong team. What the hell is this Vision and COPE deal, don't say your together because your not You cannot pull funding from COPE like the labour movement did and run a separate party calling yourselves more pragmatic etc and have this behavior and still expect folks to vote COPE, this kind of behavior disenfranchises voters, just look at the numbers, 18% decrease in voter turnout, the entire party if you look at the map of support came out of the east side and young voters and the blue collar masses who were hoping for some change, not COPE light or vision, what a joke. Jim Green owes his life to COPE for lifting him of his knees(literally) Now Jimmy thought he would ride into city hall on Larry's shirt tails, sorry Jimmy but when you update your resume ask yourself why your core supporters did not come out and vote , think about the slots, The Rav line, Olympics, fare increases etc,
3) Maturity - There were bigger things to worry about more than ego, this was to important to lose, they should have kept
the party together and ran a full COPE slate, if COPE had funding they could have elected at least one more councilor keeping power, their should have been compromise on both sides, lack of maturity , why vote for a party that cannot even keep itself together for 3 yrs. You cannot offend your supporters on so many issues and expect them to come out and support you. Sorry this whole process has created massive voter apathy,
A good lesion for next time, don't Forget where you came from and why you owe support. The right was unified and even found a nice guy named James Green to run first on the ballot, ( I would love to see his finances and where his money came from) LOL, James Green taking 4200 votes is unheard off,
janet666
6 years ago
The naivety and ignorance that masquerades as political awareness in this city is depressing. The NDP have hated COPE for years, because they want control of the civic arena. Jim Green is the NDP bag man just like Libby Davies was the NDP bagman in her time. Oooh, have I offended one of our sacred Icons by saying this? Well its true, and I saw it with my own eyes, before and after the humiliating defeat of Harry Rankin. I resigned from the COPE executive 12 years ago because I couldn't fight the NDP agents who were destroying the COPE coalition. It was a waste of time and energy and they only wanted people like me because it gave them street credibility. It was the Glen Clark gang running things at that point and Libby knew what side her power bread was buttered on. Politics is a dirty aggressive business. What's funny is that they call Connie Fogal crazy because she talks about the "boys in the back room" who run everything. Well they do, and they are mostly "the boys", who suppress people that really want to make a difference because it would upset the balance of power.