The shame of the current settlement is that it will be rammed down teachers throats as a victory for Bill 12.

The shame of the current settlement is that DeJong and his cronies continue to disrespect teachers and have far more enthusiasm for bludgeoning them with legal fines than working with them.

Education will not continue to work in this province if the political leadership will not model respect for the teachers and their profession.

The shame of the current settlement is that while BC Administrators maintain the highest salaries in the country, BC Teachers lose ground and move towards being the lowest paid. And this government thinks that's great.

Off to the pickets. Next week back to school?

I can guarantee that within one week of being back I will have more than one student announce they are going on holiday and will be away for a week or two. YES, even in provincial examinable courses.

But if they choose the dates, it's apparently not a crisis. Go figure!

For the moment, I don't feel ready ('scuse the pun) to form an opinion about whether the current settlement offer would be beneficial for students, teachers, and British Columbia. In fact, I'll wait to hear what the teachers' opinion is.

The one thing that clearly leapt out of Will McMartin & David Beers' story (above) was Glen Clark's statement in the Legislature. I had forgotten that Glen Clark had been a Union organizer; and never knew that his father had been a Union organizer before him.

Ping! No wonder the Oligarchy went on the attack, by fair means or foul.

Voting yes to these recomendations will leave people with the opinion that it was about the money. We all know that it was not. The recomendations do not deal with the injustice of being forced, by law, to work in unreasonable conditions, they also do not adequately deal with working and learning conditions.

Our labour supporters are looking to us to make a stand. What we have been fighting for has not been accomplished. Do we back down now with next to nothing?

I would not ask the teachers to vote on these four recommendations until Gorgon and his basilisks agree to them. Voting would be a waste of time if the Lieberals disagree with Ready's proposal.

Democracy is a 24/7 exercise.

Maybe we should ask the public if they think that Ready's recommendations go far enough to re-instate the support services for our kids and compensation/respect for the teachers in a timely fashion. Remember the kids, especially the elementary kids(where the basis of a good education is laid) have already lost some time and instruction in the last three years due to over loading classes in the school boards effort to balance their budgets.

These reacommendations are a sell out of our membership.

While they are all bonuses for teachers, and interesting crumbs if we were in a normal, non-striking bargaining situation, they are NOT why we went on strike. If we asked teachers whether they would go on strike for these gains or not, teachers would have overwhelmingly NOT gone on strike. What a terrible betrayal and waste.

The deal you see here is because the BCTF (and every other public sector union in the Province) has been sold out by Jim Sinclair, just like the HEU.

Unions be warned. Jim Sinclair MUST resign.

Campbell said this morning, "These recommendations respect Bill 12." That says everything you need to know.

Teachers, do not accept these recommendations!

Time for the BCTF Executive to resign if this is all they can offer their members. (though I still have tremendous respect for the job they have done, they have still failed in this task).

All I can say is its about time. I am sorry, I for one am a bit tired of kids being the victims of this ongoing feud. Does Gordo and crew seem to have a commitment to radicaly changing our education system? Of course he does. DOes he seem to be hell bent on dueling with the BCTF? Yes indeed. As have previous right winged regimes in this province. But in the same vain it feels like teachers want to refight the provincial election. I agree with the BCTF right up to the point that they walk off the job. Certainly there must be more effective ways to conduct this battle without our kids becomming the cannon fodder. As for Ms. Simms being another Rosa Parks...my god give me a break

So Tom Lal, if you agree with the teachers up and til they went out do you personnally agree that Ready's recommendations go far enough to put support back into class? For this school year? how about the next three years?

To BC Mary & several others...

Re: "Our labour supporters are looking to us to make a stand. What we have been fighting for has not been accomplished. Do we back down now with next to nothing?"

I agree with Zena. These recommendations are NOT good enough for me! I didn't go on strike to be given crumbs... and I won't vote to go back to work because the BCTF gets to have a few more teachers at a Round Table discussion. What few have picked up on is that the round table the Liberals are proposing is simply another way for them to look good, as in "Look everyone, we're consulting with all the stakeholders!". Take a look at what the Liberals did after they conducted a "factfinding" mission 2 years ago... The resulting input from caring teachers, parents, school trustees was immediately sent to their File 13 inbox. Have the Liberals READ the Charter for Public Education that they signed and that is prominently displayed in my principal's office? Noooooo.

I want REAL change to happen in schools and I want it to happen NOW. Take a look at the REAL story behind the Ready report:

http://www.bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/ProposalForSettlement/

I would not have gone on strike for these "plans" 2 weeks ago, but....2 weeks have passed. I see huge gains in public opinion, public awareness, a more politicized public, and a teacher solidarity which will help us to deal with all the same problems which we were campaigning about and which will still be there when we go back.
Progress is always slow, but I believe that under these conditions, realistically - we should vote this in, and be prepared to do what is necessary in the next 'bargaining' round if the Liberals fail to live up to this (which they will).
This government has behaved characteristically; there have been no surprises. But we have won public opinion and that should count in municipal elections and in provincial.

Under no circumstances should the BCTF announce any vote pro or con to these recommendations until the government has announced theirs and the courts have made a ruling on fines etc. Should the courts impose bankruptcy levelled fines and jail terms then the teachers may as well go for broke (no pun intended) because at that point there is nothing left to lose. A repeal of the bill would be the only reason to go back to work.

I read on another forum that Gordo has accepted unconditionaly these proposals. Not having the benefit of TV or radio, can anyone confirm this for me?

Gary
Campbell has accepted them verbally but when Jinny asked for class size guarantees in writing to be enacted by June 2006 - he refused saying that he has accepted the Ready recommendations without any conditions. That's the gist of it but I may have the language wrong.

Of course Gordo has accepted these recommendations. It's exactly what they were going to give the teachers before they launched their useless and ridiculous ILLEGAL STRIKE.

Bit by bit by accepting these kind of deals, (patchwork deals that throw a little money around) the public education system and the whole social services network of this province is being decimated.

I had thought the BCTF would not recommend either a yes or no vote but leave it solely up to the teachers...and that the teachers would see the weakness of Ready's report.

Bill 12 has to be addressed.

How can you ignore it? It represents the Ghost of Christmas Future.

Gary, Gordo has accepted the proposal unconditionally with lots of self-congratulatory spin, of course. The BCTF is asking that they guarantee that in writing. Who knows where that will go...

"Of course Gordo has accepted these recommendations. It's exactly what they were going to give the teachers before they launched their useless and ridiculous ILLEGAL STRIKE."

What a load of bs. Nemesis must be the only guy in the province that had this inside information because no one else did.

I can see Campbell now. "Ok people we're not going to negotiate pay or working conditions for a few years. Then if they threaten to strike we're going to pass a law making them criminals. And then we're going to refuse to negotiate some more because now they're criminals. But oh, we have every intention of giving in to a bunch of their demands. We're just not going to tell them or anyone else except Nemesis here"

No inside information necessary, Frankie boy.
The gov't stated when they announced Bill 12 that they were willing to look at all of these issues. That's why Vince Ready was appointed to the IIC over two weeks ago.

Nemesis wrote..

He is right, this will be viewed as ridiculous. After all, teachers have already paid for most of these recommendations with their current job action.

Pretty vague document. What really is the role of the "Learning Rountable"?

I have read the Ready's recommendations over and over, as it only takes two minutes to read. Vague, weak, and does not really force anyone to commit to anyone. There are some victories for teachers in the such as the LTD benefiets, and the "class size" recommendations will help the students.

Sure, the BC Liberals will address class size, but they will aslo have fun putting children into portables again.

But his recommendations will be most effective in splitting teachers solidarity during a vote.

Bill 12 is still there. What will this dispute look like ten years from now?

Ugh.

Thanks T/L and lynn. I just found it on a cbc article. The way I read it was that Gordo said it in trying to deflect the question from Jinny as to whether he would put some things in writing. Of course he won't.

As for other comments on Jim Sinclair: He has seen that there may no longer be a reason for a General Strike. But I am sure if the government even hiccups on this matter it will be back to plan 1.

Personally I would like to see the Fed follow through until the teachers have voted pro or con. But that is not the way it works. Unfortunately. My thoughts are that if you start something you follow through to the finish.

I sincerely hope that this bill is repealed but I'm afraid it won't be by this regime. And when it is I think there had better be a law in place that outlaws government from making laws to siut their own ends. But I suppose that is just a pipedream.

Tom Lai says: "Certainly there must be more effective ways to conduct this battle without our kids becomming the cannon fodder."
I keep hearing / reading this kind of comment. If you believe in our cause, but don't agree with our right to strike, what do you propose? After approx 16 months of the government refusing to discuss our 3 main issues, what other options were there?

"he gov't stated when they announced Bill 12 that they were willing to look at all of these issues"

Ignore the politics Nem, pretend its happening in Nigeria. Look at the timeline. They announced Bill 12 AFTER they had refused to negotiate. When they did they refused to actually say anything concrete. Saying you'll look at something is just for your supporters. Its meaningless. Nothing Ready recommended was ever put on the table this year by Campbell.

I think the teachers should reject what Ready is recommending because Campbell could still say, "you want a firm number? How's 50? I'll refuse to have classes of more than 50, now get back to work".

I'm sure that's why the gov't likes his report, lots of bs here and there but very little in the way of actual specifics. Campbell could spin this for the next year while elevating Ready to the sainthood.

' What will this dispute look like ten years from now?' Moat; That depends on whether the teachers decide to change their focus or not. As long as they continue to fight the gov't politically they will not advance much. It's about time for them to choose a more moderate leadership group that will stick to a mandate that makes some common sense. Unions are necessary to some degree in society, and they were first created to ensure safe working conditions and decent benefits for workers, but the BCTF has been swept away by extremist ideologues since officially certifying as a union and it's been getting worse since Chudnovsky, Worboys and Sims have taken the reins.

You said it, Moat. Total lack of committment in these recommendations, nothing more suited to the likes of Gordo.

What is the learning round table? It's a learning merry-go-round table to distract you from recognizing that this government has absolutely no committment to, nor love of, the public school system. It's deceptive chit-chat.

"As long as they continue to fight the gov't politically they will not advance much"

Truer words were never spoken. Let's hope that the NDP decides to stuff it to business until Jerry Lampert takes out a membership in the party and stops donating to the Libs.

If the Libs are going to be cheered for using the law to attack their political opponents then it would be just as wonderful if the NDP did it.

Actually, the extremist idealogues would appear to this writer to be the BC Gov`t. As far as I`m concerned, the Campbell gov`t has to be the worst in Canadian history.

Now that all the whining is over, how do we avoid the fact that as long as we allow the govt. in partnership with big labour to manopolise essential services such as education and medical care from putting us through this again ?
I suggest a school voucher system as well as private medical insurance in order to give citizens a CHOICE of where they want to spend THEIR money.
I cannot tolerate either side of this key issue that nobody has the guts to face.
I call for choice, I don't want to be a slave to Public Sector Unions and a pussy government .

Maybe the new avenue that working people should take is collecting signatures for recall elections. Why wait until there is absolutely nothing left of this province? Why wait until we are like Atlantic Canada?

We must remember that Atlantic Canada was once rich in minerals, timber, and fish. It made millionaires out of a few, and their families still look kindly to the dynasties that their ancestors created. Aunt Sally who worked in a Newfoundland fish packing plant has now moved on to being a SCAB at U.S. owned Tyson's meats for $12 an hour.

The worst thing about this whole deal is the Premier going on television this morning and telling everyone that teachers are fools who have gained nothing. He is still being a bully. If this government is not grown up enough to admit that their heavy-handed, union-busting, legislatively-enslaving tactics are wrong, perhaps it is time for a concerted recall effort.

And, although I understand education is a provincial matter, why isn't the rest of Canada screaming in Ottawa about BC's violations of ILO guidelines?

When are you going to complain about Terasen's monopoly over gas distribution Ron?

And as far as vouchers go you keep dodging the obvious.

Why wouldn't everyone with a voucher put their kids in the same school? The best one.

I will vote to return to my classroom, but I'm going back angry. I've taught for more than 20 years, and I've never felt as bitter as this before.

One of the saddest results of this labour conflict has been the absence of a provincial principals and vice principals' voice. This group was culled from the BCTF as a way of weakening educators' influence in education, and it was obiously an effective move by government. I think principals and vice principals have a lot of work to do to get themselves off the fence.

Typical leftist hypocrisy by Sharing. Tout the IlO guidelines while protesting the WTO b/c you fear losing your sovereignty. Talk about pretzel logic.

Are you happy with the WTO Nem? The WB? The IMF? The UN? The ILO? Unicef? The Cdn Fed gov't?

I know this isn't what some of you want to hear, the ones that would rather fight than compromise but...

The Liberals have agreed (Gordo the Terrible hisself) to accept in it's totality, VERBATIM, and they will attest to this commitment in writing, all of and every aspect of Mr Ready's recommendations.

Does anyone bother to READ the article? Seems most of these posters just use the latest strike news to stand on their podium. It would be helpful if people actually had comments on the article or could bother to put the current dispute into the historical context in which it sits.

Reading this article, it is very very obvious that it's not and never has been simply a case of "Liberals evil--- BCTF saints". Both sides are very responsible for this mess.

It's all about trust, isn't it? Gord tells us to take his word. The people of BC have no reason to take his word for anything.
Teachers will wait for Justice Brown's decision on fines. If they are huge, it makes no sense to go back to work. If they are minimal, a 'yes' now might be advisable, because we all know Gord will break his word, and the teachers will be out again next September.

More pretzel logic Frankie boy, more pretzel logic.

Well, Nemesis,

I have not protested the WTO. But if the rich members of the WTO are bullies, then they are wrong, and I ought to. The WTO is not the same as the UN's ILO. One group speaks on behalf of capital, and the other speaks for the whole world, even those without capital.

I notice you went on the attack as soon as I mentioned recall elections. Knickers suddenly knotted were they? Go on the offensive as soon as someone states the obvious, is that the tactic?

Teachers have gained huge provincial momentum, now is the time to use it for the public good. I say, "Throw the bums out!"

Frank asks: "Why wouldn't everyone with a voucher put their kids in the same school? The best one."

Well, what's best? Some might say a Catholic school, others a Khalsa School, or a performing arts school, or an experimental school, or...you get the idea. The voucher concept has been kicking around for years because a lot more parents like the idea of choice than have the dough to make it happen.

Anyway, on a first read through, Ready's recommendations seem pretty good. I don't think it seems like the strike would have been about about salary, except in the sense that enshrining class sizes in legislation helps ensure a proportionate supply of jobs. "Harmonizing salary grids" doesn't seem irrational either.

Anyway, that should be that.

The teacher's have the support of the public....at this point. It would be a very dumb political move for the Liberals to double cross the teachers. Having said that the govt will not give the BCTF either control of education in the Province or a blank cheque to have every wish come true they can possibly dream up.

Sparkyboy,

"all of and every aspect of Mr Ready's recommendations."

What concrete recommendation did he make? Are class sizes going to be set at 22? I read the report and it doesn't say that.

nestingtree,

"Seems most of these posters just use the latest strike news to stand on their podium"

Guilty as charged. I hope you filled out the Tyee survey? I did and I asked that there be forums available for discussing the news of the day so that article forums are actually about the article.

Stop blathering and answer the question Nem

"commentor: TheMacposted: 8 Minutes Ago
It's all about trust, isn't it? Gord tells us to take his word. The people of BC have no reason to take his word for anything."

What word has he given to break? Has he committed to accepting these proposals?

Yammer,

"Some might say a Catholic school, others a Khalsa School, or a performing arts school, or an experimental school"

Fine, so won't all parents wanting a Catholic school just pick the best one? etc? Who decides who gets in? What if there is only one school in your town? Where's the choice?

I've said before. Bring in vouchers. I'll set up "Frank's Really Classy School".

I'll put kids in front of a video screen all day to listen to a taped talking head and give parents back, in cash, half their voucher and I'll have more kids in my school and make more money than anyone setting up a performing arts school.

Nestingtree
I to am guilty. But I am afraid I am out here in never never land. Getting any information is difficult. Our papers are from out of province. Finding people, other than teachers on my line,to discuss this very important issue (to me) has been difficult. I am starved for informed debate. I have been passing on many of these comments to my collegues so that they may have a base in which to start their debate.
Sorry. I promise to do my homework from now on.

Grank' Teresan doesn't have a manopoly on your choice of where to get ENERGY from. So it's a goofy comparison.
And as far as your criticism of the voucher system goes. I think Yammer addressed that goofy argument as well.
I will get my choices yet, just you wait and see. Public Sector Unions will not prevail.

CBC News
Last updated Oct 21 2005 08:55 AM PDT

Jinny Sims:
"If they give to us, in writing, a commitment that before the end of June, they will put in place firm numbers in the School Act for grades 4 to 12, and address class composition in the School Act, then we will recommend to our membership, reluctantly, but we will, for our members to vote on Saturday and Sunday so that our students can be back at school on Monday morning."

A short time later, Premier Gordon Campbell announced that the government accepts Ready's report. And the premier also gave a verbal assurance that the government will implement Ready's recommendations and consult with teachers.

But when Campbell was asked whether he would accepts the BCTF condition as part of his acceptance of Vince Ready's report, he sidestepped the question – saying the government was accepting what Ready had recommended "unconditionally."

Campbell also said that the extra expenses that Ready has recommended will be paid for with the savings in salaries that went unpaid during the strike, and said the government has come out ahead financially.
______________________________________________
It was announced this morning that the teachers would start taking their votes on Saturday, but if B.C. Supreme Court Justice Brenda Brown hands down a ruling today that imposes heavy financial penalties on the BCTF, or tries to vilify the teachers, it might go the other way.

GORDO: "OMG, they don't want it in writing, do they?"

You're blathering Ron. If I call Terasen tomorrow and tell them to stop delivering gas I have no where else to get it from.

Yammer argues for you? Should I just discuss your issues with him from now on?

I am a teacher. I will be voting NO tomorrow. I voted to protest bill 12 two weeks ago, it is still in place, nothing has changed. I want the right to free collective bargaining which respects my hard won democratic rights. The mood was grim and resigned amongst my colleagues this morning and for good reason. We have rolled over and died. The BC Feds have sold us out once again. The negative consequences of this last fight will be long lasting. Teacher morale is already low from the continual battering at the hands of this dictatorial and heavy handed government, it will be even lower on Monday when we enter the classroom with our collective tails between our legs and our heads lowered in shame. We should be ashamed of ourselves. We accomplished nothing. We have gained nothing. The state of public education is still in jeopardy. We are all losers in this sorry battle.

Frank' switch from gas to ANOTHER energy source. At least you have a choice.
And I will stick with my arguments for school vouchers in spite of your attemps to force me into your NO CHOICE world.
I won't be held hostage by Pubic Sector Unions.

You WILL be held hostage by Public Sector Unions, Ron Erwin. It's for your own good.

Oh for pete's sake Ron. With that logic you have way more choice then. You could put your kids in private school. You could send them to another country to be educated. You could home school. You could move to the catchment area of the school you prefer.

That's far more choice than exists in the ENERGY market in this province.

Fact is, your "choice" hyperbole is just a smokescreen for hating anything that represents a community.

Ron Erwin says:

So then if I want CHOICE in say HYDRO you would then suggest I go to Natural Gas lamps, I have yet to see a computer that runs on Natural Gas or other sources. Still have to have the Hydro....I guess then I could go to personal generator and pollute the air even more...hell all my neighbours could and then we would be the perfect place because we all had CHOICE....get your head out of the dark place it has been sitting.

charlotte, you have my full support even though it impacts my life and that of my kids negatively. I'll find other activities for my kids outside of school. No problem.

Too many here expect teachers to raise their kids for them.

Is that in the CBC article? Didn't see it. Where's this from?

Frank' what about the tax money I am already paying towards public schools. I want that money back so the cost of the private school is slightly off setted by this voucher I am craving.
Why should I have to pay for both ?
What abouy MY community, it's different than yours, but it does exist way more than you are willing to admit.
Remember about half of Canadians think like me, even though they are not posting on this site.
You must be prepared for a battle.

charlotte did you actually think the BCTF would win? Unlike your NDP buddies, thankfully this govt will not roll over every time a public sector union samps it's feet and holds it's breath.

So go ahead and vote no, the govt will come out shining because the teachers will be the ones keeping kids home now, when the govt is ready to move forward.

The world is not fair dear charlotte, and remember that things can never be so bad that they can't get worse....

Different CBC article. Found it.

Nestingtree:
My response 46 minutes ago was in response to John Horgan's bringing up "wages and working conditions" that were in the article. If we don't look to the roots of control over these items then we are merely dealing with the surface of the issue. If the root is weak, the tree will not prosper.

I hope that I have remained faithful to the topic. You see, reductionism (looking at the small picture - while not loking at the context) is the problem that we face when we don't look at what has been happening to the society as a whole. Education does not exist in a vacuum.

The strike has achieved all it could achieve. Now, the government needs to be held accountable for drafting laws for which it had no mandate. RECALL CAMPBELL!

recall campbell? you and the BCTF had your chance and spent MILLIONS trying to win the election May 17. But guess what? YOU LOST. The BC Liberals won ANOTHER majority.

Welcome to democracy speedo. See you in 4 years.

Voting no would be ill-advised for the simple reason that public support would evaporate. Save this battle for the next round. There's a foundation in place now for progress and that will take time. If the gov't proves untrustworthy again (See crown prosecutors situation) then it'll be the old wash, rinse, repeat in September next year.

japander, The Campbell was interviewed on TV. That is where he made his remarks. I saw him on Global.

Then move to the catchment area of the public school you prefer Ron. As for private school, sure you pay a little more because it isn't 100% subsidized yet by the gov't, but what's a few bucks when it gives you more choice? Right?

"Remember about half of Canadians think like me"

But I guess they all stay home on voting day and lie to pollsters the rest of the time?

If the money teachers have lost in salaries is used to fund this agreement than one can assume that the lost teaching time will NOT be made up.

If the teachers work a lengthened school day/year to make up the time, then their salaries will NOT be cut for the time out on the picket lines.

Correct?! Surely they don't want our picketing time to FUND the "settlement" AND have us make up the time lost?

Frank' no my types don't stay at home on election day. You do remember the results of the last Provincial election don't you ?
The only poll that counts is the one cast by voters on election day.
And the BCTF lost the last election.
Where is Carol James today ?????????????

Louise, in the real world that is called "Consequences of your Actions".

I realize this is a concept that escapes most unionists, but please try to understand that after ditching work for two weeks to take part in an illegal action, you cannot expect to be paid to make up the work you neglected, and you especially can't expect us taxpayers to fund your poor decisions.

You may have to give up some of your precious summer holidays. Welcome to the real world.

Hi japander,

The CBC articles on their website are constantly updated as new developments come in, rather than them making a new page.

That is why they have a update time at the top of their article.

Thank God the CBC is back, so that we can get some full information.

Trying to find out some of this stuff from the Vancouver Sun or The Province is a waste of time.

Gave up on the choice argument Ron? Good for you.

In a 2 party system you get a lot of people voting for both the NDP and the Campbell Libs that wouldn't vote for either if there were other parties with a hope of winning.

Federally there are more parties and apparently very few people support your Reform party there, certainly nowhere near 50%

Reform Party ? What's that ?

Ron; Learn how to spell Monopoly

Carol James really was missing in action on this ..what an embarrassment to the NDP. .... always squealing about the lack of leadership from the Campbell govt.

she said the teachers shouldn't break the law but she wouldn't say what she would do about it if she were Premier...because she wasn't Premier....duh.....It was a hypothetical question...Carol you wanted to run the Province?

James hid on the fence through this whole business...and she wanted to be Premier?

Workers do not replace "struck work". Welcome to the real world of labour law, such as it is.

This just in, $500,000 fine for the BCTF plus no strike pay for the two weeks the teachers were out.

So what will the Government get for not honouring legal arbitration in the prosecutor's dispute?

I've been critical of the BCTF throughout this strike but in hindsight, I think Ginny Sims' actions have been masterful in strategy. She has managed to get the Campbell government to retreat completely, and kept the majority of the public on-side.

In addition, I think the BCTF realizes that they've maximized the public's goodwill and can't keep the strike going without losing it. So they will go back.

This isn't the first time that Campbell has blundered in the handling of labour disputes. The public regarded his conduct of the HEU dispute as abominable also, and it coincided with a big slide in the polls. We'll probably see the same effect again.

Who, then, are Campbell's advisors? Is he singularly boneheaded, or is he under the spell of other dolts? Is it true that Martyn Brown (former reform party strategist) holds Campbell's ear in these sorts of confrontations? Is that part of the problem?

"This isn't the first time that Campbell has blundered in the handling of labour disputes."

Something tells me it won't be the last, either.

"Is he singularly boneheaded, or is he under the spell of other dolts?"

I say all of the above.

of course gord accepted the terms 'verbatum'.

look at the holes you could drive a universe through.

first and the only argument necessary - non binding.

that is the only out gord needs to do nothing.

sure, he will 'consult on class size', but not agree.

he may give the $20 mil for special needs, but when it comes to 'retain', he will balance $20 mil for geek education against the bottom line.

the other $40 mil needs an agreement on how it will be spent. no agreement - no money.

as for the 'ongoing process for regular communication' - it is to laff.

these recommendations are way too weak to be of any benefit to the students of bc.

as for gordo's spin, this guy could lose every point, and tell you how he won for the benefit of bc.

just like the lawyer joke - he only lies when his lips are moving.

poindexter, and nemesis, why do you give unflinching support to a bunch of liars?

no offence intended (this time), but i am curious. campbell supporters never seem to want to discuss the fact their hero is an unabashed prevaricator. and why do you think we need this type of personality to govern?

is it now impossible to be honest, and successful in politics? i can only think of 2 politicians, in my lifetime in bc, that i would deem honourable. chuck cadman and mike harcourt.

the reason i like this site - the freedom of discussion.

corel and canwest global are such strong liberal factions that nothing they report can be relied upon. and they censor all comments from the public.

so, it is clear that ready's recommendations are weakly worded, by accident or by design,
and will not help at all, as written.

if it were up to me, i could not agree to return to class, as the reasons for leaving have yet to be adequately addressed, or even assessed by the govt.

i do not feel the education system should be used as a pawn by the govt.

instead it should be treated as a lush garden that grows the most important crop in bc - our future.

why do you gordo fans think otherwise?

Hi charlotte,

You are absolutely right about the BCFED selling out the workers again.

Yesterday Jim Sinclair was on CKNW, and said that because the BCTF would be taking a vote on Friday, The BCFED would be taking no action.

An hour and a half later, CKNW phoned the BCTF, and they said that NO vote was planned and that Jim Sinclair was wrong.

CKNW phoned Jim Sinclair back, and again he insisted that there would be a vote on Friday.

We now know that there will be no vote until Saturday, so that makes Jim Sinclair a liar.

This morning, Keith Baldry was on CKNW saying how brilliant Jim Sinclair was to diffuse a bad situation.

I can't help but notice that the media never has a bad thing to say about Jim Sinclair.

I will never forgive or forget the sell-out of the Hospital Employees Union strike in May 2004. The province was brought to the brink of a general strike only to be sold out by the BCFED leaders. HEU workers were slapped with a 15% wage cut and they didn't even get a chance to vote on their own contract.
______________________________________________
N E W S F L A S H:

B.C. Supreme Court Justice Brenda Brown has just announced that she will be fining the teachers $500,000 and they will receive no strike pay.

More details will be coming up.

'I've been critical of the BCTF throughout this strike but in hindsight, I think Ginny Sims' actions have been masterful in strategy. She has managed to get the Campbell government to retreat completely, and kept the majority of the public on-side.'
WOW!!! This guy MUST have been a Glennocchio advisor. Or perhaps it's Jinny herself?

That works out to less than $1.40 per day per teacher. If they decide to go back to work on Monday, they will likey be looking at another strike vote for September. Gord will break his word.

burner, I don't see Gordo as a prevaricator at all, in fact I give him a lot more credit than I do most union leaders. Someone like Glen Clark would be more suitable for that label I think.

Why do we need someone like that in govt? Because he is making the right decisions for BC as a whole, and not decisions for special interest groups like public sector unions.

With someone like the NDP in power they continually demonstrated that their method of resolution was to give the unions whatever they wanted regardless of cost or whether it was reasonable.

I don't want to see the education system used as a pawn either, but I see the BCTF being as guilty of that as the gov't in this case.

Off topic: Did anyone else hear Baldrey congratulate himself (and the media) about how reasonable they (the mainstream media) had been through all this? Seems to me, the mainstream media misread the public and the teachers resolve in all this. At the start of this dispute the MSM was clearly on the government's side and only half was through did they start to provide some balance. In fact, even now they talk like it's all over, before the teachers have even voted.

Further off topic: Donald Gutstein has a great piece in this week's Georgia Straight about the cozy relationship between Shaw and Canwest. There a nice bit about Michael Smith at the start.

Nem, Martin is one of your guys. You might want to remember the names of the posters when you read 'em. Martin and Ron are on your side. Try to remember that.

Anyway, he's wrong. The teachers fought Campbell and the law and Campbell and the law won.

As I predicted last week, the BC Fed were right behind the teachers up until the point when the teachers needed them.

"Because he is making the right decisions for BC as a whole, and not decisions for special interest groups like public sector unions. "

So you don't count corporations, developers and other Liberal friends as "special Interest". Take your blinders off.

poindexter, this gov't is in the pockets of special interests. Please tell me when they did something the left liked and the BC Business Council didn't. Never.

Campbell is the leader of a special interest group.

There is a caution for teachers to be heeded in Frank's words, public opinion being notoriously fickle and all. The government is going to attempt to manipulate that hard-earned good will of the teachers and paint themselves as conciliatators extraordinaire. This is a marketing team we have in Victoria after all, not a real government.

The only way to counter-act that spin is to be true to the reasons teachers went out on strike in the first place...nothing stymies this present crew in Victoria like integrity. A foreign field to them.

Charlotte I empathize with your piece. I hope the teachers vote no. All of this hinges on whether teachers are courageous enough to take the "road not taken". This dispute has reached a very complex point but courage has a rippling effect... as does, sad to say, acquiescence. It is up to the teachers now...

Gee, I thought that government problems with the BCTF were something new and confined only to the present Liberal and past Social Credit governments.

What a sorry waste of time. Everything the teachers "got" will be saved (and more in my reckoning) in the wages they did not get paid. Note the strike ended before payday, when the house payment, Visa payment and Prius payments come due.

Jinny did not lose anything, did she? Not a cent of pay or prestige. The teachers themselves lost more than they gained and the kids missed two weeks' class.

poindexter, thanks for the reply.
now i see the problem - gordo supporters do not believe he lies.

like hardline catholics don't believe in kiddie diddler priests.

to compare gord to union heads is fair, i think, as i have no trust or respect for almost all of them, either.

they are a lot like gord, they have a political agenda as well, and it comes ahead of their members' agenda.

the bottom line is we are still in a education crisis. it is an infection that has been festering for years, and has been ignored and/or worsend by every govt in the last 10 years.

gordo has no intention of veering off that course.

"With someone like the NDP in power they continually demonstrated that their method of resolution was to give the unions whatever they wanted regardless of cost or whether it was reasonable."

I thought the talking point on this was "the teachers can't make an agreement with anyone, even the NDP gov't."

Try to remember which version of the truth you're spinning to us OK?

No, Saint Ginny told the troops she wouldn't accept a paycheque if they didn't get theirs. So she preserves her status as the Rosa Parks of the educrats, while she plans her next career move into politics. I bet Jack Layton will be knocking at her door if he already hasn't.

the Libs could never do enough to make the left happy. We all know that.

And I would much rather have a govt being business friendly as opposed to the NDP socialist approach of 'business must be destroyed', which we all saw demonstrated during the '90's when the NDP ruined our province.

Everyone working is doing quite well now, even *gasp* unions, despite how their whining would try to make you believe otherwise.

A $500,000 fine today. $150,000,000 in lost wages, balanced by $100,000,000 in new spending and Comrade Jinny is still making demands.

I cannot for one second see how the rank and file union membership can see what they did as any kind of victory.

I wonder if they will be stupid enought to continue striking Monday? Nothing would surprise me with this lefitst mob.

Ron, BC paid for Teresen's infrastructure and everything about it before it was stolen. It belongs to the real taxpayers of BC. Regardless of the spin.

Gee, a demand that the promise breaker backs up his promises with a simple letter that takes 5 minutes to dictate and less than an hour to fedex. Why won't he do it, if he plans on doing what he says?

"And I would much rather have a govt being business friendly as opposed to the NDP socialist approach of 'business must be destroyed', which we all saw demonstrated during the '90's when the NDP ruined our province."

You're living up to your handle Poindexter.

poindexter, if the Libs didn't do anything the Left liked then it really isn't a balanced gov't. You say the Left can't be pleased? Fine. Did this gov't do anything the BC Business Council didn't like? No. So obviously the Libs haven't tried that hard to be balanced.

As for the NDP ruining the province, you can do better that that. Imagine, the province went from two balanced budgets, smaller class sizes, lots of gov't watchdogs to cutting watchdog resources, increased class sizes and record deficits.

6 billion dollars from the Feds, historically low interest rates and high commodity prices were required to balance the Liberal budget. Yet the Libs have still not reduced class sizes to NDP levels, they still refuse to resurrect gov't watchdogs and even the minimum wage has been lowered in spite of increased rents.

Oh my, what an economic miracle.

"I cannot for one second see how the rank and file union membership can see what they did as any kind of victory. I wonder if they will be stupid enought to continue striking Monday?"

Gee Working Man, if you can connect the dots and see that the BCTF lost why would you think they'd be happy to go back to work.

Maybe its just me but I would think it highly more likely for a union to vote to return to work if they had actually won something.

Let's compare unemploment rates now vis a vis, say 1997. The facts say in all. Now let's see what the teaches have "won:"

1. Class size limits stay in the School Act.

2. Bill 12 stays law.

3. No strike pay.

4. Two weeks salary gone amounting to $150,000,000.

5. A $500,000 fine teachers will pay, not union leaders.

Had the less radical teachers spoken up, this whole mess cound have been avoided because whether they like it or not, goverments make laws, not unions.

Did anyone just see Keith Baldry on the BCTV Noon News Hour a few minutes ago?

He was waving a piece of paper in the air, saying that this was the letter from Mike DeJong to Vince Ready.

He also said that if Jinny Sims snached defeat from the jaws of victory and recommended no to the membership her leadership would be in question.

How would an unbiased news reporter get his hands on such a letter?

Why did Vince Ready call him on his cell phone yesterday with updates on the talks. He was on CKNW this morning crying that he missed that call because his cellphone was in vibrator mode.

N E W S: The $500,000 fine will be given to charity.

oh Frank...Did you live in BC in the '90's???

I remember mining decimated, the provincial economy crumbling as the rest of Canada excelled, Forestry in ruins from a ridiculous amount of red tape, ridiculous union friendly and expensive initiatives such as the union wage requirements on the new island hwy which we can now thank for all those traffic lights.

Don't forget about the businesses and everyday people who fled the province because the NDP was so out to lunch on everything from labour laws to taxation.

I don't see too many people fleeing BC lately, do you?

"Let's compare unemploment rates now vis a vis, say 1997"

Why not look at all the years? And compare those years with other provinces? Picking the year of the Asian collapse wouldn't be politicking would it?

Easy to create jobs in a low interest environment while collecting lots of fed money.

Hmm, I could just take the fed's 6 billion dollars and create 100,000 "jobs" for 3 years at $20,000 a year.

Or even better, since $6 an hour part-timers count as "jobs" and at 20 hours a week that's only $6,240 a year that means I could take the fed money and create almost a million jobs for a year.

yes, they are financial wizards aren't they.

poindexter, yes business did yell and scream that the sky was falling every day the NDP was in power. Glad we agree that they were hysterical. Looking at the NDP results we see balanced budgets, smaller class sizes and gov't watchdogs with resources and yet they managed all that without 6 billion in federal money and without low interest rates and in spite of the asian collapse which hit this province harder than any other.

I moved most of my operation and capital to Alberta at that time due to the absurd amount of red tape and regulation Mao-Tse Glenn foisted on me. All my workers technically worked in Alberta so I avoid the absurd "sectoral bargaining" charade. There was a net-outflow from BC in people and capital.

We have the lowest unemployment in BC history now. Wages have never been higher in the private sector. But socialists will never accept that. All they can think of is higher wages and less work for goverment unions workers and to hell with the rest of us. They cannot change or reform themselves in order to win elections. They even have their own politcal party to press their wants.

And tell me, what have teachers won? They have refought the May 17 election and lost again.

sure Frank, I guess you can call a fudget budget that used over estimated forestry revenues to be "balanced" progress under the NDP, but most people don't see cooking the books as a good thing.

And watchdogs? Easy to police business when there is less of it in the province than there ever has been.

Just answer me the question....if BC is so bad now and the Libs are such fascist dictators that the left love to proclaim, then why are droves of people not fleeing BC in a mass exodus like they did under the wonderful NDP in the '90's? And don't give me some song and dance about asian collapse...

"I moved most of my operation and capital to Alberta at that time due to the absurd amount of red tape and regulation Mao-Tse Glenn foisted on me."

And yet you're quite happy right now to be paid from the government teat. Nice to hear who's getting my tax dollars, a blow-hard that can't sidle up to the BC gov't trough fast enough after coming from Alberta.

6 billion dollars does create lots of make-work projects for you and your buddies doesn't it?

"They even have their own politcal party to press their wants."

"They" being the BC Business Council?

My personal hope is that teachers can continue to find the courage and resolve to keep up the fight against this reactionary Neoconazi regime. I do, however, understand the tremendous pressure that is on them individually and on their union. This is a time that tries men's and women's souls, no doubt.

So, in that regard, I wish you well in whatever decision you make.

Though it does need to be said, that if this strike winds up being "settled" on the basis proposed by Ready, it is necessary that we all understand that nothing significant has been resolved. There may be some assurance of one time funding and the fixing of class sizes, my bet is, more or less around current levels-, though there is nothing actually written down, with a signature from the State side, as even an assurance of that. And for teachers themselves, of course, nada, dicky-doo.

All of which will send the braunshirts around here into joyous celebration, which should tell us something. They are already beginning to gloat.

So a vote for the Ready proposal (wish I knew how this guy spells his name)fundamentally means, a decision to lay the same issues that began the fight over to another time. Which, if the intent is to be better prepared the next time, can be a legitimate argument, be that true and not just a self-salving justification.

Which goes back to a discussion we had nearer the beginning of this strike, about the need for a new kind of restructured trade union movement, doing what the corporate system typically does, removing significant assets from reach by the State and its Courts, as one of many things that need to be done. Along with that, as I have frequently argued, is the need for a revolution in the character and content of the trade union leadership itself-, turfing out much of the current crop of managers of labour for Big Capital, and bringing into power a new class warrior leadership prepared to seriously engage and defeat the rulers of Big Capital and its State flunkies.

For it becomes ever clearer, I think, that along with this, we all, along with leadership, need to come to seriously question our loyalty to the status quo system. We need to see that there is a need for the development of a new social vision that separates off from that of Big Capital and its State, and evolves in quite another "extended democracy" direction, that links up our interests with that of the broader community, in the creation of a new kind of more inclusive power within the economy, the State and the social culture at large.

This is not good enough.

Between here and there however, it depends on how strong you feel, our teacher friends, and how prepared you think you are. :-) No doubt, no matter what you decide here, there will be much that still has to be done to get our collective House of Labour in better order, and better prepared for the class war already evolving in society-, not of our choosing but theirs. (They could have left the postwar system in place, as it was. They chose instead not to, and to attempt this rolling back of the historical clock.)

But whatever teachers decide here, we all need to be more resolved for the future.

That was the auditor general poindexter that said the NDp budgets were balanced. Please point out your qualifications to say he was wrong.

"And watchdogs? Easy to police business when there is less of it in the province than there ever has been."

The watchdogs are there to police government Poindexter, try to keep up will you. This government seems to dislike the idea of having such watchdogs looking over their shoulder.

As for migration, I have never met a single person that left BC because of the NDP.

But I have found one on the Tyee that came back to get his snout in the gov't trough after the Feds gave them an additional 6 billion.

The teachers bargaining history and working conditions are now know to the public. We raised our voices. We moved beyond the CanWest Global monopoly of Liberalized news. That's a victory.

We renewed our faith in one another. We know we can and will man the pickets, if the situation demands it. That's a victory.

We have an indication of how future negotiations may work. We have to work at it, in good faith. Whether or not the government does, we can. That's the challenge ahead of us.

The public has given us tremendous support. We know they appreciate the work that we do in the schools. We know that they will listen, if we tell them there are serious problems. That's a victory.

I'm voting "yes." It's time to move on. We have no guarantees that the government is acting in good faith. BUT we know that WE are.

Jinny Sims has done her absolute best for us. She has been there, every single day. I'm proud of our union and proud of our spokeswoman.

Well done! The future is anything we make it.

Frank explain how Working man is feeding off the govt?!?

Because he wanted to avoid the pro-union sectoral bargaining the socialist NDP legislated??

Because he couldn't operate profitably under the amount of red tape invoked by the NDP?

Ridiculous!

No, because he's on the gov't teat (Fraser Valley Health).

Working man, you are sounding an awful lot like another free-enterpriser-type who used to rattle off on these pages. He too claimed he had abandoned socialist BC for Alberta during the 90's, but when pushed to explain himself was as vague as you are.

I think you are the same person, playing the same game. Sorry I can't remember the handle used at that time, but it certainly has the ring of "working man" to it.

Highest wages, my arse. Unionized construction workers were making as much or more 25 years ago in BC than you claim to pay you workers today.

Frankly I do not beleive you employ seven apprentices as you claimed recently and I have real doubts you are even involved in construction other then the efforts to construct a good bs story.

The teachers, the BCTF and other unions have won the fight to stop a fascist government from breaking up unions and enslaving their members.

Gordon Campbell is now a symbol of underhanded tactics gone wrong. HE has no clothes on and everyone realizes that so quit playing dumb.

Frank it's documented that in 1996 Elizabeth Cull, despite being advised by staff that forestry revenues were something like $500M over inflated, still tabled the budget.

The budget was "balanced", the election was called the next day, the NDP won, and it was not until after the election that our boy Glenn came out to declare they may have been a little bit overzealous in their forecasting.

Sounds like cooking it to me.

Louise, if the BCTF accepts a deal without actual numbers being on the table you haven't won anything.

Sure, one can claim you saved the union. You could have done that by rolling over and accepting the gov't no-negotiation earlier.

By voting to end this strike it means the gov't wins because it doesn't have to put anything concrete on the table, certainly nothing more than the money its already saved. But teachers and students lose the last 2 weeks.

Louise, is your yes contingent on the letter from the premier? Just curious.

Poindexter, among other benefits, a NDP government gifted with the record oil and gas money the gov't has received would have completed ALL the earthquake proofing for the schools. They would have opened more beds in the hospital, provided more opportunity for the middle class and poor people. They would not have sold our assets. Only a fool would consider this group of corporate lackeys anything other than terrible for this province. I'm sure we'd be more prepared for a possible flu epidemic as well, because our health infrastructure would have been enhanced with the money windfall. I think our security would be higher as well because they would have put more money into gov't services which looked after security. They never would have privatized hospital cleaning staff and food services which ensure in the face of a highly infectious health epidemic people with no loyalty to an exploitative employer ie Sedexco, earning half their wages and having their work place cast asunder, will NOT show up for work.

They would have been proactive in the face of unique challenges British Columbians face in 2005.

In other words, when they were in power, we had 'peace, order and good gov't. We have lost the last completely, and losing ground on the first two.

poindexter, the two budgets I mentioned were the last two under the NDP. They left the province in a balanced fiscal position, not "ruined" as you claim.

And, they would have brokered an Olympic deal that didn't involve giving away the whole darn store!

The teachers had unprecedented public support in spite of an "illegal" strike.

It was the gov't that needed a way out. They were surprised by the results of their polling. That's why Ready was called in.

The teachers, by voting to accept, are letting the gov't lick its wounds and live to fight another day. A day they hope will be more to their liking. So they will look at the battle here closely and fix their errors and then next contract they will be that much stronger. Maybe they'll reduce maximum class sizes to 30, maybe they'll put 5 million into special needs.

Whatever they do, they will be able to claim they listened and they made some progress based on the province's ability to pay. Next time around the teachers will not have the same level of support.

They know it, Frank. They just want to perpetuate the lie. If I were the NDP I'd sue public figures making them publically retract and put a stop to it. If I were one of the parties they continue to defame, they'd hear from my lawyer.

For the record, if Sims and the executive is satisfied with the paper produced this morning, my vote is "yes." If they are not satisfied, I will follow their lead and vote "no."

I think this battle is over but the war is not yet won. It's really more of a quest. Looks like it will be ongoing, perhaps it always has been.

redrivergirl, it may have been easier to collect your welfare cheque in 1998 than it is now, but people contributing to society were having a hard time finding employment and supporting the freeloaders.

The airy-fairy NDP world of giving everything away can't last that long, because somebody has to work to support that.

I know several working people who bailed out of BC in the late '90's and have now returned. So, like I said, why are people not fleeing BC in en masse if it such a horrible place now???

Working Man posted: @ 11:59AM

"Note the strike ended before payday, when the house payment, Visa payment and Prius payments come due."

Working Man posted: @ 12:31PM

"I wonder if they will be stupid enought to continue striking Monday? Nothing would surprise me with this lefitst mob."

Kindly tell us Working Man; Is it over or isn't it?

I hope it is all right to comment on the article rather then current events?

This history containing the detailed flip-flop of position by both NDP and anti-NDP MLA's accentuates the degree to which management/employee relations are political in BC.

While getting along by going along may play a role in labour relations in private sector relationships, the negotiating relationship does not flip-flop each time the excutive offices are changed.

The electorate responds strongly to the political issue rising from contract negotiations between government and its employees. That response is strong support for one ideological position or the other. All politicos receive positive feedback, regardless of ideological differences. Mostsupport comes from the most radical of the ideologues who tend to see 'the end of civilization as we know it ' in the opposition's position.

The ideological issues that arise from management/labour relations when government is the employer give a reward to politicians so powerful no leader can avoid it, employer or employee.

With respect to labour relations between government and government employees, it is necessary to separate the legislative function from the executive function of government. Possible models for such a separation are not hard to find in Canadian politics.

If ideological/political rewards of fighting between public employees and government were removed , the political rewards for having these fights would be gone.

Negotiations would still occur, arguments would still ensue, but less on politics and more on practic.

IMO.

D

There are victories here, Workingman, and even though they are relatively small (for now) they set the stage for future negotiations.
Regardless of where the vote takes us, there are some positives for teachers to take.

First of all, and you may not understand this, but we have stood up for the principle of collective bargaining. Standing up for a principle is cheap at 12 bucks a head for the fine. We were told we could not exercise our democratic right of withholding our labour, but we went ahead and took those rights.

We brought the issues to the forefront and even got the government to admit that class size and composition were problematic. Don't think that they would have admitted that if we had not gone on strike. The task for the teachers, public and opposition is to hold the government's hand to the fire so that these things are fairly discussed and enshrined into the school act on a reasonable time line.

We have shown a willingness to talk and have huge public support - support that will continue into the next stages of negotiation.

And an aside here - most teachers believe in this cause. There are few less radical.

The pay increase for teachers on call is a definite plus.

The forty million into long term disability is a plus.

The twenty mill towards class size is a total joke. The proverbial drop in the bucket.

The harmonization of the salary grid raises many questions: what procedure/negotiations will take place; how will northern districts, who traditional pay more to attract teachers, fare in this; what will it look like across the different categories; is forty million enough? At first glance, probably not. It is interesting that binding resolution may be imposed by Vince Ready if the parties don't agree. When you consider that previously we had no rights to any binding arbitration whatsoever, we can take this as a positive.

Fair collective bargaining issues have not been addressed in Ready's report. However, if we read between the lines, he is not allowing the government to remain at arm's length from bargaining. He realises the pretence of BCPSEA being the bargaining agent and so addresses his recommendations to both government and BCPSEA. He also has expectations, I believe, that his plan for a collective bargaining process will be accepted by both government and union, and that many of our concerns will be addressed. Maybe this is wishful thinking....

If the government "unconditionally" accepts his report, and teachers vote against it, we may lose public support. If we accept it, get back to work, join the round table (with increased representation) and keep these issues alive while we "recuperate" from these last two weeks, we will be better able (financially and energywise) to put similar pressure on the government next September, if necessary.
Teachers have to think strategy here, and there will not be one revolution to change things, but a series of skirmishes and battles.
The next ones will be in the spring.
*continued next post*

And, would that these takers and poor citizens leave again.

Your post reminds me that's another thing the NDP wouldn't have done persecute people living in poverty, nor would they have made new rules which mean people working with children no longer have to report cases of suspected sexual abuse!
Which is why investigations have dropped. Dead children would not be dead today if your gov't were not in and there is no denying that. Nor, would people like you, judging from your comments, been so very comfortable publically and visciously attacking the most vulnerable members of society.

The neo-conservative movement is filled with people who could not compete, in a democracy and on a level playing field. They are not the best of what we have to offer, but the worst. That is abundantly clear, here and in the US.

But, this too shall pass, my brother.

*post continued*
The other issues to arise from this are from Campbell's news conference. The money saved by the strike will pay for the 105 mill spent in Ready's recommendations. Oh, and how will he get it back equitably from school boards? What about the forty mill for long term disability? What about if school boards try to make up the time missed - who will pay for salaries? These are major difficulties for school boards.

The biggest positive here for teachers is our solidarity - between ourselves and other unions. I don't believe we will lose that energy.

On the basis of these recommendations alone we should throw them out - they are poor and don't address the issues concretely enough. On the basis of all of the other ramifications, teachers are pragmatic enough to take the positives and look to the future.

"I know several working people who bailed out of BC in the late '90's and have now returned. So, like I said, why are people not fleeing BC in en masse if it such a horrible place now???"

They never did. The population of BC increased every single year while the NDP was in power. In fact, if you look at the numbers, it was under the Socreds that our immigration was at its lowest.

Here's a quote from BC Stats :

> As a result of this higher level of recent immigration, as well as internal migration and natural increase, B.C.'s total population recorded the highest growth rate of any province since the 1991 Census, more than twice the national average.

that's right redrivergirl, I can't compete, which is why I don't want to be in a union and be a part of their lowering of everyone to the common denominator.

That's the reason I own a business, or believe in competition, or don't think the gov't should be in every aspect of society. It's because I can't compete. Yeah. Sure. Go back to Fantasyland.

Of course, Frank. It is impossible to believe a word they say.

Another thing that would be different if the NDP were in, is that the public discourse and sense of community would be unified and strong and the neo-con line would still be in dirty back rooms.

and another from BC Stats :

From 1990 to 1994, BC had the highest rate of job creation of any province in Canada, and from 1995 to 1997 BC's employment growth continued to be above the national average. However, in 1998, annual average employment growth was only 0.1% in BC whereas the annual average growth for Canada was 2.7% In the last two years employment growth in BC has picked up, increasing by 2.2% in 2000, while the growth in Canadian employment has remained fairly stable. As well as general improvement in the provincial labour market, there was also strong growth in full-time jobs and shifts from self-employment to paid private sector jobs.

Add to that all the good social policy moves, watchdogs and balanced budgets and one can only dream of what could have been had the NDP been in power when the feds handed BC 6 billion dollars, the Bank of Canada handed down historically low interest rates and the royalties from commodoties went through the roof.

'The biggest positive here for teachers is our solidarity - between ourselves and other unions. I don't believe we will lose that energy'

alpinedays, this is the only thing teachers have gained from this strike.
I hope the teachers remember the support they received when the bcgeu and cupe folks are attempting to negotiate a contract with this govn.

of course, we may find that the strike is not over. the teachers i've talked with this morning are very angry and unsatisfied with mr ready's proposal.most recognize that it gives very little... and promises to keep talking aren't worth much, as we can see from the last year of bargaining.

Look Poindexter, I really regret it when I get personal. I don't like to hurt people's feelings. I do have a trigger 'send' key.
It is just that I have a lot of antipathy to neo-conservatism and its fascistic elements and real harm and suffering it causes people and the environment. Any system which will not allow people to live a decent life and experience the joys life has to offer, is wicked in my opinion.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

RedRiverGirl, after 10 years of business and media doing their "chicken little" bit its no wonder many people actually buy into the rhetoric.

I apologize too poindexter for my shot at you the other day on another thread.

When I see a name I don't recognize I automatically assume its a drive-by smear (a new account created for a comment, the name never appears again).

Hey thanks redrivergirl, but not to worry, I have much thicker skin than that! I love to debate and I don't take it personally. Believe it or not I have several socialist friends and we discuss and debate this stuff frequently, and we remain friends after. I'm all warm and fuzzy inside now.

I don't totally disagree with you, we just have different ways of getting there. I believe it is up to individuals to take care themselves, and not some socialist molly coddling govt. And I don't care what anyone says I think the NDP was the worst 10 yrs this province ever saw.

I know, Frank. Actually,it is a testiment to the intelligence of British Columbians, that many do not buy it, considering how much misinformation is promoted. I think people are onto them now. But, I also think that is why so many of us tune out completely. However, people are awakening to what Neo-Conservatism really is in the US and it appears as though it is in big trouble.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Glad to hear you have friends with diverse opinions. I bet Bush wishes he did about now, no? :-)

oooo, I'll have to go find that one Frank, I don't think I saw it. Sometimes it's fun just to poke the socialists in the cage with the stick and watch though...

'I hope the teachers remember the support they received when the bcgeu and cupe folks are attempting to negotiate a contract with this govn.' Why the hell do you think CUPE's out Citizen? Because they care about teachers? Give me a break. The whiners will kick the kids out of school again when the CUPE janitors hit the bricks. No wonder so many people are happy this gov't is standing up to these idiots.

Hello nemesis,

I can't speak for all or even many cupe workers, but some that I talk with actually seemed interested in the issues that teachers were talking about. Most of my friends and colleagues care about the quality of our schools.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there have been a great number of non unionized workers and parents out there on the lines with the teachers. Small local businesses have been supplying coffee and doughnuts all week. Are these people happy that the govn. is 'standing up to these idiots', or are they a bit concerned about what they're hearing about learning conditions in our schools?

The generous support for the teachers came from their courageous stance in defending the public school system and all the areas of significance in maintaining its quality eg. class size, special needs, teacher specialists etc. It also came from those who have fought this struggle for rights from other corners joined in a common purpose.

There is an obvious lack of details in Ready's recommendations and if you have been following the relentless attempts by the present government to privatize the public sector over the past years you will notice the key that opens the door to privatization, the wriggle room conveniently created, is often done through the sheer lack of details. Because nothing is specific...gosh darn... any key works...in any way that best serves the interests of the government.

That lack of details makes dismantling the system a liars game. An ability Gordo and crew have raised to an art form. What is left in the end is just the appearance of a public system. They have proved themselves to be really, really good at this. Just a thought.

citizen x and Lynn have nicely brought this back to my question: do you think that the public will believe that Ready's recommendations do enough to return support to the classroom in a timely fashion?

I see that my demand to Campbell recalled has been rebutted with the old “that’s democracy” saw. One facet of democracy is we practice it is that we elect people with whose platform we agree. Another facet, an equal and opposite facet, is that those people govern in accordance with their platform, or better yet, the will of the people, as best as that can be determined.

It’s not clear to me where Premier Campbell has got the idea the people of BC want him to bash teachers. He didn’t ask me and he didn’t ask you either. He didn’t announce at any point in the run-up to the election that he was planning to bash teachers. There’s nothing socially or economically dire happening at this point that would require him to start bashing teachers. Thus he is acting without a mandate, a rogue elephant if you will and we should get him to stop since he is not going to stop on his own.

And given that we have the Recall and Initiative Act which allows voters in British Columbia to petition to remove a Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA) between elections I move that we do so since you never get the government you deserve, you get the government that you let them get away with.

Short of that, you can always tell him exactly what you think. His email is

I suggest inundating him and his henchfolk with as many polite emails as you can stand writing.

He isn't bashing teachers, he's bashing unions. They need to be bashed. And I believe the Liberals stance on the BCTF was made quite clear a few days before the election when the letter was leaked about BCTF strike strategy.

so go ahead speedo, get that recall going. good luck with that. I'm going to e-mail Gord now and tell him what a great job he's doing.

Many CUPE workers care nothing about education, just their jobs.

A teacher friend of mine was once threatened with discipline when she tried to hang a clock in the classroom. "That's CUPE work!" the union cried. She had to fill out a Work Order, and wait until the caretaker got round to it.

A couple of weeks later, he arrived with a hammer and nail. Now that's CUPE efficiency for you. Happens every single day in our schools -- when they're working, that is.

As usual, Martin gives purile examples of why unions don't work. Of course there is nit picking crap in work places, although I've never experienced thse kind of problems my school - my custodians and maintenance workers are so overloaded that if I do one of their tasks they are happy. Let's talk about nit picking crap in private business - no doubt you have many examples. Here's one - being forced to plant dead trees while treeplanting - cos if they didn't get them in the ground their allowable cut would be affected! And the under the table deals the mill owners did so there would be no tax paid. And the wives of the owners being on the payroll for years without doing one iota of work. And the stuff charged to equipment, but ending up in their own homes. And the gas charged to the workplace but used in private vehicles. And every meal out charged to expenses. And I could go on and on with things I have directly experienced working in private business. Give me a break.
What you don't understand is the rights we have to decent working conditions, safety, and wages have been fought for (and died for) over time, and that those rights are being eroded. And we intend to fight to preserve those rights, because unions are one of the last bastions speaking for rights of ordinary people.
You don't have a clue.

CKNW News Talk 980
Audio Vault
Friday, October 21, 2005
2:PM

After ordering the BC Teacher's Federation to pay a half million dollar fine for it's illegal walkout, a BC supreme court judge rejected a request to have an independent court appointed monitor Larry Prentice dismissed.

Questions have been raised about his ability to be completely impartial.

Larry Prentice is a partner and senior vice-president with Vancouver's Ernst & Young firm, a company that donated almost $9000 to the BC Liberals leading up to the last provincial election.

BCTF president Jinny Sims says she wasn't aware of that.

Larry Prentice was appointed to report back to justice Brenda Brown if the union is using any of it's assets to keep the illegal strike going.

That includes using a 14 million dollar strike fund to compensate teachers on the picket line.

This independent monitor, to be paid for by the BCTF, will have the power to scrutinize all payments the union makes "on a daily basis," and report any breaches to the court.

The BCTF are the teachers. You bash the BCTF and you bash teachers.

Think about it. We did what no other union would do. We went out on an illegal strike for 2 weeks. We faced down Campbell and his cronies. They have accepted that the BCTF speaks for teachers and that it will be the BCTF that speaks for teachers at the table; not Campbell's buddies that crossed the picketline.

TOCs will now gain seniority! Wow, that is something Vancouver teachers have been fighting for for decades.

The BCPSEA now has to face the 40 school boards that publicly supported the teachers' position. How much credibility does the BCPSEA have now? Look to Vince Ready to recommend the abolishment of that organization.

As a union, we have an incredible amount of solidarity. In Vancouver we had such an small number of teachers cross during this "illegal" strike it is almost a joke. We can go back stronger than ever ready to fight for public education.

Our public support actually grew during our time on the line. That is unbelievable! The public knows the issues that we face in the classroom everyday, and the BC Liberals look bad in their new found understanding.

I am not happy that we didn't get everything that we wanted, but I am proud and satisfied that we were out there for the right reasons. Teachers should be proud of themselves. I will vote yes to Ready's recommendations and come back to my classroom if that is our majority decision with my head held high.

Actually, this is all very depressing. Now let me look for that career section in the newspaper.

It's absolutely true what someone said a few days ago on another comment: Learning is natural, education is an institution.

Teachers have had to fight so very hard for a good education system. But of course, everyone is an expert in education. Just look at how many comments are posted. Everyone went to school, so that makes everyone an expert. Why are those views and statements of people who have actually studied how to be teachers and have studied education not treated with more repect? What about the education academics at university, why doesn't the government listen to them? Why are they not included in this sham educational round table?

Would we question a meteorologist? A doctor? A psychologist? No, but we jump all over the statements made by teachers who have actually studied education.

Remember the saying; those who can do and those who can't teach. It has been said so often that people actually believe it is true. If you say a lie often enough people believe it is true. Teaching is a very difficult and skilled vocation, they should be paid accordingly. We represent about 1% of the population of this province.

I don't know whether to hold my nose and vote yes or listen to my heart and vote no.

Reading all these statements by politicians only confirms my belief that it was never about trying to build the best educational system, but all about control and power. In doublespeak this is: Freedom is slavery.

I am a trained professional unable to exert my skills in the micromanaged classroom. Doesn't the Ministry of Truth trust me? Are they afraid that we teachers may do too good a job and teach a generation of children who can rise up against their oppressors? Ignorance is strength.

By the looks of the teachers posts we can look forward to another 20 years of whining and complaining. Nothing has ever been good enough and it looks like nothing will ever be good enough. Will the whining ever stop?

Jinny could be the most inept negotiator in BC labour history. All you teachers lost 2 weeks of salary to get a deal you could have essentially got 2 weeks ago. Was the strike really worth it?

"Actually, the extremist idealogues would appear to this writer to be the BC Gov`t. As far as I`m concerned, the Campbell gov`t has to be the worst in Canadian history."

Short memory eh buddy. . . Ujall Dosanjh wa a real winner & the piece de resistance in crap government, hands down winner is Glen Clark.

Was looking at the fast ferries today, tied up in North Van. . .

And that's just the BC Provinciual level . . have a look at the tax raising nutjobs running Vancouver city hall . . . long live Che & viva la revolution !!

poindexter: Why do you hate our children? What has the BCTF ever said that was contrary to improving the working/learning conditions in our schools? We already know that teachers make less money in BC than in many other places in Canada so it can't be about the money.

I keep hearing that society values its' children above everything else... is that just bullsh*t?

You know, this is basically a simple mathematical equation:

(X students / Y teachers) + Z special needs teachers + money for the rest of the education infrastructure = how much education costs in BC.

Either a government pays that amount or it doesn't. If it doesn't (or can't) then some justification for that needs to be made.

If the economy is going so well right now, as you keep saying it is, what's the problem?

Wait, I guess you're waiting for your piece of the government trough, the 400 million in corporate tax cuts that gc wants to give out.

Oh and btw, how is corporate welfare ok but welfare for the poorest in our society is not? Just how hypocritical and self-interested can you be?

Outstanding, Chris.

And I had my daughter over here today, who is out on the strike. Long discussion. And I'd like to see the complete terms yet, but it is looking like the teachers will have indeed made some significant gains here.

In another time, another situation and more favourable circumstances, better might have been done, BUT, that said, in this situation there are a number of gains of note on income, conditions, and bargaining guarantee fronts-, assuming my daughter is correct, of course.

Not the least of which is, the Neoconazi Creeps were indeed forced to negotiate in the end.

And it ain't over yet. That son of a bitch (sorry you bitches :)has got to sign these terms of settlement, or you've got only the Piss Tank's word-, amounts to about -0.

Jinny looked strong on the news tonight. I'm proud of her.

And no war is ever won in a single battle. Nor will this one be.

Victory to the teachers, and those who support them! May the braunshirts all burn in Hell!

Teachers are doing themselves proud.

And quit your whining Jim. Go stand in the corner!

Okay, you can suck your thumb.

I heard Frank earlier state that he has never met someone who has moved away from BC because of the NDP. Well, its nice to meet you Frank. I moved to BC in 1992, and moved away in 1993. One of the big reasons: The NDP government. They made it almost impossible to work anywhere in the province, unless you had seniority, no jobs were available. If you believe for one second that the 1990's were not the worst years for BC in a long time, you must have had some cushy union protected job. What do unions breed? Lazyness, unemployment, bankruptcy... the list goes on and on. I have heard the complaint that it is hard to get a teaching job in BC, this is mostly because of union orders. any school wanting to hire a new teacher to an open position must first post it through the BCTF, and throughout the school's staff. This is discouraging to "fresh-out-of-school" teachers, because they are not teachers, and therefore do not belong to the BCTF. Who ends up filling the position? Some cast-away teacher that could care less if their students failed or passed. It blows my mind how anyone could think that unions actually accomplish something, because another big thing they "accomplish" is creating a rift between the worker and management. It used to be that if a worker had a problem with management, they setup a meeting, and discussed it like civilized adults. Now-a-days, workers flee to their union, and the union throws their own hired lawers, negotiators, and other specialized workers onto the situation. management has to hire their own lawers and the like just to keep up with their worker, on a issue that could have been solved in a private meeting. I hope this issue breaks the BCTF for good, it seems this whole "Ready paper" is pitting teachers against eachother, and against the union.

Wow! the Braunshirts are out in full force here, whining their hearts out.

Gotta be a decent settlement the teacher's have got-, I hope, hope. :-)

Nothing nicer to watch than the flowing of tears from such Goosesteppers as Fred and Ethel. What gits.

Working man,

If wages have never been higher in the private setor, why not give the teachers a raise and make improvements for school children? Should they not get something out of this? After-all they have gone through years of cuts.

jim: WTF are you talking about? What deal was that being offered two weeks ago?

Two weeks ago there was no 'learning roundtable' as weak as that is. Two weeks ago, as far as gc was concerned, the education system was firing on all cylinders... not a problem to be found. Two weeks ago teachers were getting nothing for a pay raise and now they have gained 2+%. Two weeks ago the system had $150million less money in it and now it has about 250 million more (presuming bond keeps her word about where the salary money is going to go and gc keeps his word about the rest, yeah I know, pretty unlikely). Yes, teachers sacrificed a bit for that, but teachers have always been sacrificing for this province's education system.

Seriously, if you ever write something more intelligent than could be written by a million monkeys I'm sure my head will explode. Keep trying... it might happen someday:)

Another teacher writing in regarding their god complex. The BCTF is there to look after the best interests of their members not the students. It’s the classic condescending teacher attitude. All bow to the teachers. What wrong with giving other stakeholders a say. Maybe you don’t want them to have a say due to the fact that they may institute accountability and what best for kids instead of what’s best for the teachers.

Look in the career section. You won’t find another job in this country that gives $70,000 salary, 12 weeks vacation, 10 sick days, nice pension, and job security for life. Maybe if you spent a few days in the real world you would see how good you really have it.

All of Vince Ready's recommendations were on the table for discussion by the IIC when Bill 12 was announced. Only now the gov't can pay for them with the teacher's lost wages.
If this is what the teachers call a victory I'd hate to see them lose one.

The learning round table was offered up right away. The teachers lost about 2% in salary for every week lost. It is a one year contract meaning they lost 2%. The gain in education funding equals about 90 million. In a billion dollar ministry it's peanuts. I'm sorry but your wrong. Basically the government is funneling back money it saved through out the strike. But as long as you feel you won I guess you had a major victory. Let’s start negotiating for the next contact.

Here is the link to Facilitator Vince Ready's report. It's an Acrobat PDF file and is only 71KB.

http://www.bctf.ca/FacilitatorsReportVinceReady.pdf

People can right-click and "Save Copy AS" to copy to their hard drive.

tornado: How long have you been bill vanderzalm's live in houseboy?

Unions are a result of poor management, both historically and currently. There are many examples of companies that don't have unions, Costco, for example. Why don't they have a union? Because they treat their employees with respect.

Now, what does the rest of Wall Street think about Costco? They think they treat their employees too well and should use a Wallmart model so that they can return more money to their shareholders.

Unfortunately, not every company is as honorable as Costco is and no-one with an IQ above 70 has ever described the librals as 'honorable'.

"Save Target As"
sorry

How is it possible that all you highly intelligent educators haven't noticed that Jinny Sims is a certifiable nutjob?

Sorry jim and nemesis, I never mentioned anything about 'winning'.

And if you read what I wrote I hardly praised the 'learning roundtable'.

None of Ready's recommendations were presented by the BCPSEA before the teachers went on strike.

I've already debunked your magic $70k number and the '12 weeks vacation' fantasy you espouse.

Better luck next time!

Micky: How is it possible you managed to find the power switch for your computer?

But seriously, I assume this comment is due to her actually wanting the librals to put something in writing since anything less is worthless coming from them?

“We already know that teachers make less money in BC than in many other places in Canada so it can't be about the money.”

The quote should be BC teachers make more than many other places in Canada. Only 2 provinces pay their teachers more. Those two provinces are the most economically stable and developed provinces in Canada. Hmmmm, maybe everyone does benefit from a strong private sector.

Our economy is going well but you can’t just give everybody whatever they want. Governments job is to distribute scare resouces in a controlled and measured way to make sure that the economy stays strong and as many people can benefit from it as possible. Very shortsighted, but not surprising coming from you.

“I've already debunked your magic $70k number and the '12 weeks vacation' fantasy you espouse.”

What’s to debunk? It’s true.

Tornado,

"I moved to BC in 1992, and moved away in 1993. One of the big reasons: The NDP government. They made it almost impossible to work anywhere in the province, unless you had seniority, no jobs were available"

Really? You couldn't find a job in BC in 1993?

BC Stats says : "From 1990 to 1994, BC had the highest rate of job creation of any province in Canada"

I'm sure it had nothing to do with your own skillset of course.

Any lawyer will always tell you to get it in writing.

No wonder Mike DeJong no longer pratices law.

Thank God the CBC news hour is finally on.

The difference in their coverage of this dispute is amazing.

Well Bruce, I guess I am referring to the "put it in writing" bit, but also the poorly thought out press conference's that completely undermined Vince Ready. All the hard work you teacher's put into your stand was thrown down the toilet by this dumb broad and her big mouth.

If you people want a leader who wont take yes for an answer, you're as confused as she is.

Thanks, Bulltoss. I will get down to reading it immediately.

Which will also piss the wingnuts off. :-) Beauty.

As a waygone lefty myself, I am much less pessimistic than many similarly inclined folks here.

While I appreciate Mr. McMartin's and Mr. Beers' efforts to put this into historical context for teachers, I feel it would be a mistake to look at this dispute with such a narrow focus.

Why?

Because for this specific government the strategy embodied by Bill 12 is not a one-off.

And I think that is the critical point.

As such, I feel that recent developments, looking at the big picture, is a big win for the BCTF and even bigger for the BC Fed. Conversely, I feel that it has been a huge loss for the government 'strategy' because it has involved a self-inflicted shredding of the intent of Bill 12.

I even feel that the court ruling is favorable. Sure the fine is larger than what was given to the HEU, but the strike has been much longer and the BCTF's fund is much larger. Madame Justice Brown could have crushed this effort at the very beginning. She did not, and it would be interesting to hear from folks with a legal background discuss whether her delaying tactic has set a precedent that could weaken the effectiveness of Bill 12-like government sledgehammers in the future.

_____
My more complete, and admittedly somewhat more bombastic, thoughts on the matter can be found at:

http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com

Stop lying JIm. You've been corrected on this before. VERY FEW TEACHERS MAKE 70K!! If you can't argue based on fact, you're not contributing. Many have confronted you on this and yet you keep it up. Opinions and theories based on fact are useful. Opinions without facts are just a bunch of hot air.

So Japander, How much do teacher's make? This seem's to be one question teacher's hate to answer.

Anywhere from 33K to 64K in Coquitlam. Admin make more. That 64K is contingent upon a Masters degree BTW.

The 64K comes after 11 years (which usually comes after 3 years on the TOC list and 5 years of being laid off every year)

People have trouble accepting the reality of the situation. The Gov't has requested the Admins of all schools submit info on class composition. Why they don't already have this information is testimony to the depth of the problem here. If the gov't doesn't know the composition and numbers in the classes, how can they formulate good policy?

Reading many of the articles on this site, I've concluded that the pro-BC Liberal crowd actually hate teachers. Why else would they skewer their trade, insult their wages, and conveniently forget that every teacher is a university educated professional that has earned their salary. When a teacher has graduated with a masters degree and has decades of seniority, THEN they get the maximum salary of (less than) $70,000.
Teachers are in a category of professions that are looked up to in society. They are as well respected as firemen, police, clergy, doctors, and nurses. Perhaps this is why the teachers are winning the public relations battle on this.
The government (BC Liberals) may have won a legal victory here, but make no mistake, the moral victory goes to teachers - hands down.
So, while reading the anti-teacher diatribes on this site from infantile Liberal supporters, all I have to say is 'keep up the good work'. Because for every demeaning cheapshot you take at one of the worlds most respected professions, you add one more nail to the BC Liberal party's coffin...and I applaud every moment of it.

Only the 'right wing echo machine' is talking about this. Why? Because nothing could be more irrelevant. Do you people get your talking points emailed every morning, or what?

First off, thank you for your honesty. On our district site it indicates that the average teacher is earning $61K.
As far as class size and composition, this is a matter for the individual school board offices to address. In the town I live, the SBO willingly closed 1 elementary and 1 secondary school and now run's a surplus far and above the cost of keeping those school's open.
The fact that the current offer will undoubtedly infuse more fund's (above the additional $150Mill.)into the school district's is a good thing, provided that these NDPer's in fact use the money in a more responsible manner.
Considering that School board's are very partisan, we cant honestly beat up on Gordon Campbell for not knowing every detail of every school board office.

The answer is no secret, it's public record.

BC minimum & maximum by district

http://www.bctf.ca/Publications/ResearchReports/2001ts01/report.html

Canadian inter city salary grid

inter city salary grid
http://www.bctf.ca/Publications/ResearchReports/2005ts01/report.html

For analysis of the Ready recommendations by the BCTF go to the website bctf.ca and search for salary grids and you can find the salaries by district and also in comparison to Ontario and Alberta.

We have public support and public understanding of the key issues. The nurses' and doctors' settlements are coming soon. I hope the BCTF has a creative response to this problem. It's a given that this isn't what we wanted, but me must go back to work to keep public opinion and to get the kids back in school. Why not agree to go back on a work to rule basis until appropriate 4-12 class size is in the School Act? Make this the focus issue for the parents and the public.
The BCTF will be crippled by substantial fines if we stay out. We need win-win creative solutions - that's win for the teachers and win for the kids.

To pkelly;

Respect is earned and lost. I dont respect someone based solely on thier profession, that would be idiotic. I respect some teacher's, while other's aren't worth a spit. If you have the desire to respect someone unquestionably then that's your hang-up. I actually respect the 50% of the teacher's who refused to vote for the strike, more than the farcical rambling's of the picket lines.

BTW - Just because left wing news show's parade single mother's and other union member's in front of the press dosen't make the support overwhelming. Truth be known, there is more of a fear then support for the teacher's. But that's the goal now, isn't it.

sorry, the following is the analysis of the recommendations
http://www.bctf.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/ProposalForSettlement/ReadyRecommendations.html

and the salary grids can be searched through the research documents from the homepage

Micky,

I know where you live and............

Does anyone know what time Ms Simms was on the John McComb show today? Apparently he asked a question Mr DeJong don't like and they said they wouldn't come on his show. I want to check out the archive.

Thanks!

The premier doesn't need to know the minutiae BUT the minister in charge needs to know. Basic policy and goals cannot be set with any expectation of positive results without at least having the facts first. No wonder this process spun out of control - philosophy first and facts to follow!!

While you're all discussing salary grids, you might note that there is no increase in pay for those of us who have a Doctoral degree. 8 years of university, to get the same pay as someone with 6 years.

Nice to see the neocons in panic mode and grasping at straws here. We have set the tone for labour negotiations throughout the coming year and moderate British Columbians now know their government for what it is.

And the teacher battle is far from over yet.

to Micky...

What 'left wing news shows' are you talking about? BC's news media is overtly pro-BC Liberal.
True, however - respect isn't automatically granted to a person just because of their job. That is earned by the quality of their character. There are some politicians I respect (in both of BC's main parties) and some that I don't (also in BOTH parties).
And therein is where the gov't failed. The character of the players on the government side was a complete failure...their introduction of Bill 12 when it was completely unnecessary and Cambells/DeJongs arrogance since blew it for them..
and speaking of fear - no one knows better on how to campaign on fear than the BC Liberals.

The talking points keep saying the system is broken. All on point. We know it isn't. It is that it requires good faith and respect for democracy which the Liberals don't have. So, what does this mean, they are going to push for a way to make these settlements which totally declaws the union?

One can't trust these people at all.

To japander;
I do somewhat agree, however, placing blame on a Minister for trusting and allowing (for lack of a better word) local school board's and municipal government's the latitude to make proper financial decision's is not very fair.

facts to follow only if they fit the plan!

What is good faith exactly?
Is it good faith that the teacher's chose to raise up in the month of october? Does anyone think that the timing of this was not set by the BCTF long ago?, or do we all just consider this timing a co-incidence?
The reason for Bill 12 was based on the fact that the BCTF was going to strike, no if's and's or but's, the BCTF set the stage long ago and Campbell was set up to lose, one way or another. Is that good faith on the part of the BCTF?

This is a sad day.

I was skeptical when the great Vince Ready was brought in earlier this week. I predicted exactly this scenario. The Libs bring in the miracle worker to facilitate talks. The wonder-man says "No one will talk, but I will make recommendations." Then wonder-man meets with the Liberals (not the BCTF) for hours and hours, hashing out the plan. As I expected, the plan is weak and watery, non-binding, and an insult. An insult not only to the teachers and Cupe workers who have been fighting for the children, and for the rights of all workers in BC, but to the citizens all over the province who have supported us with such fervour.

I feel betrayed by Jim Sinclair. However, I wonder. Jim Sinclair is not the entire membership of the BC Federation of Labour. I hope that all BC Fed members will speak out and encourage their union to stand up and continue to fight Bill 12.

I am particularly outraged by the blatant disrespect that Gordo continues to flaunt in the faces of teachers and supporters. A little humility would have gone a long way. Instead, he continues to act as if he and his henchmen hold the high ground in this matter. I am beyond disappointed. And why, oh why can he not have the integrity to give a guarantee in writing?

We have been backed into a corner. If we vote"no", then we risk losing public support. (Although, I must say that when I was on the line today, we had more honks than ever from passers-by, and more people stopped to tell us they thought today's developments were a sham, and a slap in the face. So perhaps the support is still there?) We also risk increasing fines, to the detriment of the union. However, I don't think that I can in good conscience vote "Yes" to these recommendations. If the BCTF recommends acceptance, and the members say, "no", then it will again be clear that it is the teachers themselves who are taking a stand, not the executive of the BCTF "leading us by the nose".

I believe that I am a good teacher. New to the profession, yes, with a lot to learn, but a good teacher nonetheless. But I don't think I can stay in this profession if this dismantling of public education continues.

I say "Shame on you, Mr. Campbell! How do you sleep at night?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith

Mickey,

The BCTF's "plan" was to try to increase the pressure with as little disruption as possible. The intention was to stay within the guidelines that were to be set by the Labour Relations Board as to what constitutes "essential services". Good faith waould have been to allow the teachers to take their stand within the limits of the Liberals own ruling.

As the positive freedom of contract, this principle means that the formation of a contract and the selections of its terms are the result of the free will of the parties.

from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith"

If the teachers want to feel better with the impending end to the strike, I actually think they should consider their salary pretty good, degree or not. Yeah the work is tough, but everyone has that complaint about their work.

Starting salaries for accountants- after 4 years of school, and needed additional education- $30,000 (compared to more than $40k for teachers. Not to mention BCom degrees are by far way more challenging and difficult to get into than an education degree.

Software engineers?- also requiring a degree- median salary is $38,000. Thats less than the starting salary of teachers.

Computer science degree graduates- median is $39,000. Most of us would not survive such a degree.

Median salary for an MBA?- that's SIX years of university plus several years of work experience prior to get into an MBA program (with tuitions above $25k per year now)- median is $58,000.

All of these are for working 12 months a year.

Okay so Alberta and Ontario teachers get paid a bit more it is true. But for all 7 other provinces, teachers earn less than they do in BC. Not only that but a recent study showed that disposable income was higher for employees in Alberta and Ontario than BC- so its simply that employees on average in those provinces make more than employees on average in BC. Teachers are no different than the rest of us here.

I believe they should have a right to bargain, like anyone else. And I'm all for smaller class sizes. But at least they should feel good knowing compared to the rest of us, their salaries are nothing to balk at.

See: http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/aid-9921/raname-SALARY/rid-284/fid-7031

This consideration is frequently applied to determine the degree of right or obligation prevailing in the various forms of human engagements, such as contracts (common law) and the law of obligations (civil law). In fact, good faith has been identified as the key essence of a contract, and the parties are expected to act in good faith in their dealings.

Let's look at the bright side. Ready did the teachers a favour by not advocating for a three year contract. Why? The teachers can continue the strike next September if the government does not do anything about class size and composition when our contract expires next July under Bill 12. The public are nearly 100% with the teachers on that issue now, and their support will grow.

In the meantime the BCCPAC can get rid of Kim Howland, who is clearly imposing her own views on that organization. I think Ms. Howland has no chance of being the president of that organization again. Then BCCPAC can reflect the views of the majority of parents and lobby in our favour.

The crown prosecutors can do their litigation, the results of which will be very interesting.

Ready's inquiry can also get rid of BCPSEA, which has been rendered obsolete and should be dismantled immediately.

In short, things will look quite different by next June.

As for Gordo rubbing the teacher's noses into the fact that he is funding the Ready proposals out of the savings in salaries during the strike, that is just mean-spirited and a demonstration of poor character - but then, we already knew that. Teachers need to get past that and focus on the key issues.

In the meantime, we teachers have to go back to work to make sure we retain the support of the parents and we are financially healthy for the next round. We have learned some great lessons about how to do civil disobedience, we know who our friends are now (CUPE), and we know who we have to develop a stronger relationship with (BC FED) for next time. Some of my colleagues have been caught unprepared for the financial consequences of this action - next time they will be prepared.

We can develop strategies to out-manoeuvre the legal system (pre-paid strike pay) and the government (disruptions in the legislature?).

We have learned from many conflicts in history that when an opponent wields great power (the BC libs using the legislature and the legal system to gain unfair advantage) the best counter to this is guerilla warfare.

I for one had my doubts in the past about the wisdon of teachers acting collectively in the political arena. Those doubts have been removed. This government must be brought down in the next election, or before through the recall process. They are a global embarrassment.

jjst; buck up little one. It does look as though the idea of more money for school's, smaller classes and more special need's help has been heard by the Liberal Gov't. What more did you want?
Obviously the wheel's turn slowly, but it seem's as though SN help will be immediate and the other point's cannot be accomplished before next year, so hold on. If you're a good teacher, we need you.

P.S - I think Mr. Ready made his opinion's on Jinny Sims clear. She is you're biggest problem.

Hi redrivergirl,

I also heard on Michael Smith's show that Mike de Jong was asked a question by John McComb that he didn't like.

John McComb's show starts at 3PM right after right wing Winnipeg Adler, so I am going to scan through their Audio Vault and let you know.

CKNW archives all of their shows for 30 days, and is really useful for digging up information.

The Audio Vault Page is for Club Members Only, but you can sign up with just an e-mail address and password, just like this site.

I will agree that by June the disaster of Neo- Conservatism will be so apparent that no one can miss it. Anyone paying attention to Washington can read the writing on the wall. Even that arch Conservative Lou Dobbs (but, not a traitor to his country) said democracy makes Capitalism work, not the other way around.

Thanks, Bulltoss!

Seems to me that we continue with the basic problem of this province: Winner take all.
Ron and Nemesis-- the fingers in your ears and all the schoolboy taunts of Nyah Nyah Nyah do not serve to advance the province.
We all pay taxes-- our MLAs are supposed to represent their constituents to the legislature not vice verse. Because some of us did not vote Liberal (as in 56% of those who votedd-- OOOPS does that mean that 56% of the populace did not vote for the liberal Mandate?)- does not mean that we have ceased to exist. Our concerns are still legitimate. It seems to me that good government would involve listening to all views and attempting to steer public policy in a direction that would include as much of the taxpaying public as possible. Bad governance simply takes the "I won you lost" mentality to a point that disenfranchises whole communities.
As Norman Spector pointed out in a column not too long ago. "Public Sector workers are entitled to share in the booming economy too."

Gordon Campbell showed his colours with his spiel today in which he continued to arrogantly exonerate his party from any blame,and continued to lie about his willingness to listen. He believes in the we won you lost mantra-- there will never be labour peace, when he believes he has to have total control over labour.

Japander; You're wrong about the salary. You must be looking at an old scale. Teachers with a Master's degree and 11 years of seniority make just over $69k/year. Not bad for 10 months work, 15 sick days/year, 100% dental coverage, etc.etc.etc.

The blame isn't on the ministers for that, it is for formulating policy without the facts. The current gov't has a mandate to cut the budget and that's what they were elected to do. fair enough. Without the facts, they were unable to get a realistic grasp of the situation visavis the classroom situations and the level of anger and frustration among the teachers. This led to, after years of festering, the current problem. Granted some of these problems are rooted in structural problems in how education is administered. Ready has addresssed this in a minor way. Another portion of the blame lies with the government's unwillingness to listen. They're in their 2nd mandate now. They should have a much firmer grip on what's going on in theiir departments.

Without a clearer picture of reality the gov't will not be able to priorise tax cuts, spending, etc. That is harmful to all - conservative and liberal alike.

Since when had 69K a year been a lot of money for someone with a master degree and 11 years of experience? Assuming your data is correct. Plus, that tax rate is higher than higher earnings. Please. Give your head a shake!

Nemesis,
Here's the website. Don't tell me I'm looking at 69 when I'm looking at 64. I guess I'm Winston Smith here and you're from the Ministry of Love convincing me that 2 + 2 = 5 ;)

http://www.bctf.ca/Publications/Res...s01/report.html
(Coquitlam)

Why is everyone talking like we've already voted on the Ready recommendations? The voting won't be complete till Sunday night.

Japander; Your link doesn't work, but if it says 64k it's wrong. The numbers I quoted are accurate.

$69,000 divided by 180 day's = $383.00 per day

$69,000 divided by 950 hrs. = $72.63 per hour

That seem's like a fair wage to us laymen.

How much do you make Micky? Because, I can tell you are very over paid.

You are right Moat. This is what Ready does best. This is his job, to create a divide in the solidarity by making calculated recommendations that, while touching on the teachers demands and concerns, does irreparable damage. If this is accepted it will be viewed by the government as a total victory and the BCTF and teachers will face continued assaults. It will also convince the government that once again they have over come the solidarity of the union movement in BC.

Well Nemesis, can't hold up the BOOK published by the school board this year to show you that it says 64 so I guess we'll have to set our 5k disagreement aside. It's quite immaterial anyway.
Bottom line is, it takes a teacher close to 15 years to get to that point (TOC for three+ usually and the layoffs) and, as a percentage of total teachers, the numbers are few. If you want to argue averages which are far less, shoot away. To say that "teachers make 70k, blah blah blah" is deceptive on its face because it applies to a minority of them.

The round table will come back and bite the gov't because any real parent as opposed to a partisan one, will want even smaller class sizes than they are prepared to give.

I'm not a teacher, Cuiin, but I don't see how the teachers can vote yes without a written commitment. But, I'm also not familar with union issues except for understanding that a strong union is vital for democracy and the struggle of human beings for social justice through the union movement.

"War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength"

Ministry of Truth, "1984"

clear and transparent gov't
clean skies
healthy forrests
no child left behind

I might be wrong, but to put a written commitment forth is innapropriate and illegal in the way that it would become law and laws cant be passed in such a way.

Again, if anyone has the real answer to this, I hope they chime in with some constructive input. Did Jinny consider this?

I believe that Mr. Campbell had a mandate to wipe out all labour unions by the end of his second term. He is not an idiot. To me, he is an arrogant fat cat whose family does not respect him for the most part. He is using the law for personal gain, and he is succeeding with his plans. He is a back stabbing double-talker, and, unlike many politicians who are just puppets, I feel that Mr. Campbell has systematically been rubbing out much of our democratic system for capitalist endeavours, be it in natural resources or otherwise.
I do agree that his government needed to make some tough cuts in order to restore financial balance in this province. But he is promoting this province as the next big centre for private endeavours. Has anyone ever stood up to him for his broken promises during his campaign?? He made so many statements about things he would and would not do if he was elected. Could he not be taken to court for any of this at all??
Anyways, I am a sustitute teacher who has been hit by this government many times. I worked full time for all but 1.5 years of my 5 year degree. I even went to college for as long as I could. My 5 year degree took me 9 years to complete. Ask me how I still managed to rack up a $29,000 student loan? Tuition freeze came off, my last year cost me $15,000. I would never complain about my situation, there are so many others who have a more difficult life than I.

Nemesis,
I have filled in the Tyee questionaire. Hopefully one day I will be able to block your posts entirely. I enjoy being challenged with constructive debate, I am sick and tired of your annoying slander.
Get lost.

Love you too Lucky.

redrivergirl:

What makes you think the 2 parents appointed to the roundtable won't be the government's lapdogs?

2 trustees
2 govt reps
2 superintendents
2 parents
2 BCTF
2 school A0s
1 education minister

Who appoints them? What good is talking if no one is listening?

If, as Gordon Campbell says, the cost of the recommendations will come out of the money saved, does that mean Shirley Bond's committment that the school boards can keep the money they didn't spend is another Liberal Lie.

Hga, I'm positive they will be.

I'm sorry Cory. I'm glad you got your degree. That will hold you in good stead. Other countries love Canadian trained professionals if it comes to that. Although, that may change for those who graduate in a few years after our system is gutted.

Micky, your analysis has an incorrect assumption of 5.2 hours per day of work.

That is the number of teaching hours, but it doesn't take into account marking, prep, extra help sessions at lunch and after school, chaperoning school dances, coaching, weekend field trips etc. etc. etc.

The actual number of hours spent by teachers is far greater than 5.2hours per day.

Hey Micky, your info..

..is repeating the same falsehood thats already been talked about and dismissed..

your calculation suggests that teachers woth 5hrs a day..nothing could be further from the truth...they're paid a 7.5hr day, but often work 12hrs in the day...

so...12hrs x 180 days is 2160hrs in a year...divide that into $69,000 and you get a more reasonable $32/h...more inline for what a masters degree professional could expect.

so...whats your problem?

Micky I am very tired of this wage debate. Consider this: A first year teacher earns 38K, they work longer hours than anyone because they have new classes they have never taught.

$38000/200 days = $190 / day. 10 hours a day, believe it as they will also work week-ends to catch up. All this after being at university for 5 years and often carrying $10 000's in debt. That's an insult.

"..Bond has invited two representatives each from the B.C. Teachers’ Federation, the B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils, the B.C. School Trustees Association, the B.C. School Superintendents Association, and the B.C. Principals’ and Vice-Principals’ Association. The deputy minister of education will also attend, and Bond will chair the meeting.." (see here: http://www.gov.bc.ca/bvprd/bc/channel.do?action=ministry&channelID=-8382&navId=NAV_ID_province )

Wow. Talk about a stacked deck. Wonder if the BCTF plans on attending this upcoming event? It's slated for Mon. Oct 24. Round and round the table indeed. The Minister of Truth, er...Education will chair the boondoggle, um...meeting..is it just me, or is the cynicism level approaching critical mass? Keith Balderdashry is smirking even more than usual at this 'outcome'. As is Bill (no)Good. What a pack of whores the corporate media have become during this debacle. Straining in vain to vilify teachers, repeating over and over the "Illegal Strike" mantra, mouthing the empty and inane platitudes so very typical of those who support the de-Unionization agenda. I'm surprised good ol' Gordo didn't pass a law deeming teachers terrorists, or possessing weapons of mass destruction..um wait a minute - education itself, when distilled into a true awareness and knowledge of this gang's motivation, is a weapon of mass destruction..

I go to work at 7:00 in the morning and leave, most days, after 4:00-- that's a 9 hour day.
Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays I don't leave until 5:30.

That doesn't include the Saturdays and Sundays I put in coaching or prepping or marking.

Still, I'm not complaining. I'm sure my job is so great that Micky is signing up to be a teacher. Micky-- my advice: go volunteer in a school for a full week and see if you could take it.

Regarding the so-called "wage increase" piece for us teachers:

All we have been asking for amounts to not have our current salaries whittled away by inflation.

We want to MAINTAIN our salaries.

October 21, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)
robbinssceresearch.com

For immediate Release

Highlights
·Respondents in the lower mainland of British Columbia do not believe that Madame Justice Browns $500,000 fine against the BC Teachers was ‘just’.
·A clear majority of respondents believe BC Teachers ‘won’ the dispute (and winning isn’t just about the money).
·A slight majority of respondents do not believe there will be a change in city council but a majority of respondents think there should be.

Question #1-In your opinion was Madame Justice Brown’s assessment of a $500,000 fine against the BCTF ‘just’? Yes- 19%; No- 81%

Question #1A- (To respondents who answered “No” in Question #1)- In your opinion should Madame Justice Brown’s ‘fine’ have been more or less than $500,000? More-05%; Less-95%.

Question #2-In politics (beyond the rhetoric) there are usually winners and losers. In the matter of the BC Teachers and BCTF and Gordon Campbell and the BC Liberals, which of the two in your opinion ‘won’ this dispute? BC Teachers and BCTF-63%; Gordon Campbell and BC Liberals-37%

Question #3-When it comes to the upcoming civic elections in your area, is it your opinion that there will be a change in city council after the November elections? Yes-44%; No-56%

Question #3A-When it comes to the upcoming civic elections in your area, is it your opinion that there should be a change in city council after the November elections?
Yes-56%; No-44%

Commentary-In the lower mainland of British Columbian teacher’s are clearly seen with more sympathy than the BC government. Justice Madame Brown’s $500,000 ‘fine’ was CLEARLY viewed as excessive by the vast majority of respondents.

British Columbians in this poll believe the BC Teachers were the winners in this dispute even beyond the nearly two-thirds they polled. Many respondents who indicated that Gordon Campbell and the BC Liberals were the ‘winners’ are not supporters of the government’s handling of this file.

There is a distinct correlation between respondent’s negative sentiment toward both the government and the courts, and a desire for change in upcoming civic elections. Despite the slight majority who suggested there should be change this number was skewed slightly by respondents in the City of Vancouver who don’t think there will be change and don’t think there should be change to city council. (Is this bad news for the NPA)?

Insight-There is no doubt whatsoever from this poll that respondents are not pleased with the establishment including the courts, the government, and even the media. There is no doubt whatsoever from this poll that the decisions, actions, and presentations advanced by these three elements of the establishment may as well be originating from Mars; for the level of connect they have are achieving with the electorate. The recent BC Teachers strike has brought this to a great big ugly head.

oops, "having" not "have."

I'll be voting no without such a committment. And I may vote no even WITH such a committment since class sizes enshrined in the School Act can not be bargained except through legistlation, enacted or repealed.

Yes.

A written committment is not law. Legislation is law. It would simply be a public "promise" which we can attempt to hold them to.

Having at one point read and reviewed the everchanging entirety of the Special Education Manual of Policies, Procedures, and Guidelines (including the appendices and related documents), I must say that doing everything that is required by these guidelines (newspeak for administrative laws) is impossible. I think that a requirement for anyone sitting at a round table should be his or her having read every page of the document and passing a mastery essay test whereby the participant scores at least 80%. Further, each participant must attend 2 Masters level courses in which they acheive at least a final mark of "A-". The courses would cover ethical behaviour/dialogical decision-making and issues in Special Education. If they do this, there is a chance that i might believe that the people are committed and knowedgeable enough to begin. After entering the round-table, I would expect those participants to spend a day (including the hours spent outside of regular school hours pouring over files and making phone calls, etc.) with each of the following during the second or third week of a school semester:

1. a School Counsellor
2. Learning Assistance Teacher
3. Secial Ed. Teacher
4. Classroom Teacher with a range of identified special needs students:
5. Teacher-Librarian and/or ESL teacher

-just to get a taste of the work and a sense of the hours it takes to attempt these positions. Then maybe, the roundtable will be able to make a few informed decisions, but I would not count on all of them to get it. They must have heart and compassion. They must understand that to be successful with these kids, they need to have the time to build relationships that have trust as the key ingredient.

*3. Secial Ed Teacher = 3. Special Ed Teacher

Another liberal lie? What a surprise.

This may be an educational Dunkirk for the BCTF. but the parents have finally been awakened and they are angry.

This war is far from over.

Hi Rivergirl, GOOD STUFF

Just went through four hours of the John McComb show and compiled the good parts into MP3 recorder to sift through.

At 5:15PM,for about twenty minutes, he had Jinny Sims on one phone and Mike de Jong on the other and even though they never talked to each other directly, he was going back and forth between them.

He kept trying to ask de Jong if he would renege on his promise and he was being evasive.

They don't trust you with all due respect. He said. Can you give them firm numbers? Will you renege. If your going to do it,why not say so.

Can't you PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION
Can you in your wildest dreams
then why can't you just say yes

DID I JUST HEAR YOU SAY YES
I DIDN'T?

AND PEOPLE ASK ME WHY I DRINK.
___________________________________________
Mr de Jong, given the pain that the province has been through in the last few weeks
we will save this tape and if you renage, we will hit you over the head with it.
___________________________________________
At 6:22PM he received a government response.

I will post that in a few minutes.

Calculating a workday of 5 hours is definitely wrong. Do you think that you can walk into a classroom when the bell rings and keep 30 kids on a learning task without any prep? I also put forth the challenge for mickey, nemesis, etc. to volunteer in a classroom. Heck, come to my classroom. I could use your expertise. My email is

, email me to set up time and place. If I don't hear from you, maybe we shouldn't hear from you at all again (if you catch my drift)!

I just took a workshop on ethical fitness. One of the surprising things I learned was that ethical behaviour in an organization or business was very strongly influenced by "the boss". 86% of employees felt that their boss had a larger effect on their own behaviour than their own morals. For instance if the boss calls it quits early every Friday soon employees who otherwise would have put their honest 8 hours in, start to skip out a little earlier. If the boss takes home photocopy paper, others will follow, if the boss lies or cheats to get ahead, this behaviour will become part of the company culture.
All this to say ... what is happening in BC should not really be surprising. Our "leader" and I say that out of the side of my mouth, is not honest, does not have any leadership skills, and in fact is not very moral. His caucus, far from distancing themselves from him, have also become unethical and amoral... and slowly the pile of disdain for the truth, and doing what is RIGHT is forgotten!!

I agree, umslopogaas, Parents are catching on. Teachers, are doing a good job of educating them. They understand that this government does not understand what it takes to educate children, or they would have not ripped up the social safety net as they have.

Rotten BCTF. Your all morans. Unions are for losers. I heard it on CKNW. Gordo rules.

Thanks for making me chuckle, Wrong Earwig.

Bulltoss, et als, thank you for the excellent research!

The fact remains, and I repeat myself, is that you lost yet again. Why can't you people have a look at yourselves and ask this question:

"Why do we lose so often? What have we done to have this happen? We spent millions on May 17 and on this strike and we still lost. Could it possibly be something we did?

However, introspection is not something the left in BC is famous for. Have a look at what Tony Blair did if it is possible for you to look outside what a frog sees from a well.

According to the web site, Teacher's earn an average of $61,000 and according to thier contract they are expected to work a minimum of 950 hrs. in a school year. These are the facts, so I'll revise:

$61,000 divided by 180 day's = $338.00 per day

$61,000 divided by 950hrs. = $64.20 per hour

I have not added in all the hour's you spend on field trip's and chaparoning dance's, but then I haven't subtracted the 10 "Fun Day's" where the whole school takes the day and head's to the beach, park or golf course.

Micky,

What the hell are you talking about? "10 Fun Day's (sic)?! I haven't even heard of ONE such fun day in my 7 years of in schools!

Do not lie. What are you basing this research on? Tell us the website?

Micky, do not confuse the left with facts. They prefer these things:

1. Off the shelf rhetoric. Can't think by themselves, get it off a shelf.

2. Losing elections.

3. Blaming faceless others for their losses.

4. Refusing to look inward to see why they lose so often ie this debacale and on May 17 2005.

delete "of"

BTW - pkelly and eln,

The fact that you people can claim 70hr. work week's is laughable at best.

I suspect the teacher's stance will add comfort and encouragement to anyone who objects to government regulation of private activity, and thus establish precedents which work contrary to the primacy of the public interest. (What? Government having the power to unilaterally impose stumpage fees? Surely stumpage fees must be negotiated between the interested parties!!) Be careful when you sow the dragon's teeth. Thanks folks, your selfish and uncivic posturing has reduced governance to a game of power. And boosted private schools. Shame on you.

Mickey, teachers average about $51,000, I believe -- not that it matters at this point. So much more of we are talking about has to do with our desire to deliver quality service, and fulfill the requirements of our jobs, but it is impossible with size and composition issues.

This is an insult and Campbell knows it. So what's his game plan? It's about making the union powerless so he can privatize. That's all. Put 50 kids in a class and no parent who can afford a private shcool will go to public school causing a downward spiral of funding. Which in turn will make the school worse. What wickedness.

Yeah. Baldry, Good, Smyth - 'the right wing echo machine of BC' Like O'Reilly, etal only with our culture so a different face. I heard Palmer today try and insert some truth into the conversation and act like a journalist. He had two against one however.

Thanks Bulltoss!

I hear you, Cuinn. I would vote no as well. Sometimes you have to do what is right inspite of everything including public support etc. But, I know it's at great personal cost for the teachers.

SharingIsGood,

Please post why how you lost this dispute and the May 17 election is somebody else's fault. I am eager to read about it.

Percy, It seems that the government collects practically no stumpage fees on beetle-wood though the millions of trees being harvested still command top dollar as lumber. Perhaps it would be better if the logging companies did negotiate stumpage fees.

Wow. Read Glen Clark's bit at the top of the story. He gets it.

No wonder Jimmy Pattison scooped him up.

I never liked his government much at the time, and I felt that the electorate did the responsible thing by turfing the NDP after his reign, but he was a bright, cagey fellow, and his business success comes as no surprise.

SharingIsGood: Too late for the quality argument. After today, it's obvious that the money issue really is at the forefront.

What is this composition thing? After all this retoric about "no kid get's left behind" you teacher's sure cant unload the retreads fast enough can ya?

It is easy to predict what will happen this weekend. The 50% of teacher who did not vote last time will vote to go back to work. They realise that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by not going to work on Monday. They will realise their commie co-workers will keep the media abuzz with off the shelf rhetoric but there is nothing more to be gained from being in comtempt and a whole lot more to be lost. They will realise that they lost the battle but want to fight again. Keeping up on this tract will only deplete the union, that teachers pay into, I may add, of its funds.

Teachers, you have lost.

Think for yourselves.

Get back to work.

Your leaders will not have to pay the fines.

You will.

redrivergirl, John McComb's response to the government.

In the last hour, we had the Labour Minister of British Columbia Mike de Jong on the air along with BCTF leader Jinny Sims and interviewed both of them, at the same time, although they didn't speak to each other directly.

This has prompted a response from the government, calling that interview inexcusable, and demanding that it not happen again.And in the meantime, the Government of British Columbia has decided, that it will not make available any cabinet ministers, to this radio station.

Calling the interview inexcusable, demanding that it not happen again, and demanding, an explanation for why, I put Jinny Sims on the air, and Mike de Jong on the air, and asked questions of the two of them questions back and forth.

That is the response, of the province of British Columbia, of the government of British Columbia, to allowing a free, and open debate, about a strike that has kept 600,000 kids out of school, for the last two weeks.

The spin doctors, and the communications people, are in a knot over this, and I can tell you that personaly and professionally, I could care less.

If the province of British Columbia has decided that an issue like this does not allow for a complete and full and public airing of the issues, to the extent that the Labour Minister is somehow inconvienienced, or blindsided, or upset that he was put in a position that he didn't have his spin doctors to speak for him, TOUGH.

The interview was an attempt to allow this audience to hear both sides, and to cut through the retoric, and to cut through the nonsense. And for that, the government has decided that no one from the government will speak on CKNW for the next couple of days at least.

So there you have it. I'll leave that for you to digest.
___________________________________________

Speaking of logging companies, did you hear that they were lobbying the federal gov't to burn word to sell energy?!

Think your health will fare better than the publics with that high pollution, fellows?

Put it a vote. I hope that the BCTF votes against it so they can be dealt with once and for all. However, the 50% that did not vote last time will vote to get back to work before the Visa payment is due.

What will Comrade Jinny do then?

Micky

Read up on how to pluralize words ... It weakens your argument when you don't know basic grammar rules, not to mention the spelling errors.

Working Man, At present I am blaming no person. I understand that this Liberal government is severely lacking in moral character. You see, I am a behaviour specialist who has worked with many teen-aged rapists (and those with other not so nice behaviours), and actually helped teach a great many not to be so. But, once an adult becomes "hard-wired" into enjoying abusing others, it is nearly impossible to undo the damage caused by years of maladaptive thinking and acting. I believe that Gordon Campbell and his bunch are abusive and need to be contained; and when they are out and about, we must always be on guard, for they will steal what's left of the province and give it to the rich.

hey working man if the unions weren't around you would be making a hell of a lot less then you are today and you know it!

Hey Micky...your quote...

..is not only NOT laughable, its more accurate than you'd possibly believe..
when you factor in weekend work and extra cirrucular work, plus carloads of paperwork teachers take home every night, 12hrs is more than possible - its likely..

but go ahead...keep up with your teacher-hating rhetoric...it only verifies the anti-teacher bias of the BC Liberal party...

ps.."fun days"?! i haven't of those...I never went to the beach or golf course when I was in school...

Ron Erwin writes, "Remember, half the people think like me..."

I had no idea that Ron lives in Texas.

Did the hurricane affect your area, Ron?

Micky:

"We won you lost." End of argument.

Who is not letting facts interfere with his opinion.
Look up "listen" in the dictionary-- your anger is showing.

I could stomach your arguments better if they reflected experience with what you are discussing. Instead you refer us to websites--who is taking his arguments "off the shelf"?

Attack does not solve disputes-- it's easy to name-call and use catch-phrases-- they preclude actual thought.

There is an old saying: "There are two sides to every argument." If we actually listened to both sides respectfully, we might actually find the solution to the problems facing us are somewhere in the middle.

I don't get any of those fun days either, and anytime I am required to supervise something "fun" I find myself hoping I can find some time return to my mountain of never-ending reports to write.

ursus, why cannot you, like your socialist buddies, learn why you lose so often?

Look inward. You lost in this dispute and on May 17 2005. Why is that? Perhaps some people here in BC are tired of your off the shelf rhetoric and do not vote for your party.

Which, by the way, has been very quiet recently. Maybe they are learning.

Micky, The teachers whave been fighting for their students. If you joyfully say we lost, then you are gleeful about students losing. Get it?

hey working man whats with the comrad crap? Very few union workers are communists most are proud Canadians, for example my Dad was a union guy when he worked in a mine and in road construction, he was proud to be union, btw moron he fought through Sicily, Ortona, The Liri Valley, The Gothic Line Belgium and Holland.

Look up Ortona and or any of these Battles and see what the Canadians were up against there. One of his friends who was in his outfit became a Teacher after the war are you calling these people Communists with your comrad crap?

Many of the buiding trades members are ex military, I know lots who are, you calling them communists with your stupid rhetoric? The unions were built by veterans who tired of being treated like dirt and had the balls to stand up and fight for the rights of all working people including the morons with their stupid rhetoric!

They sure as hell wouldn't let a bully like the drunk running this province walk over their rights, btw both of those olds veterans think gordo is selling us out to the amercians and they are pissed off at him, to bad they weren't forty years younger!

So, anyone who does not vote for the NDP is a rapist?

More off the shelf rhetoric.

kinda like your crap eh working man!

ursus, get with the issue:

Is is possible that the reason the BCTF lost this and the election something they have done?

And ursus, the pulrality of voters elected the present government on May 17. Is is possible that people do not agree with your off the shelf rhetoric and that something have done caused your defeat? I am all ears!

I would like to hear what the exit game plan is from those who would vote "no". Ideologically, "no" is the way to go, but what about pragmatism? I want to know what happens after "no".

Well jeez Louise, On the news, they just reported that the average teacher salary is in fact $60,580 per year. Which is what I said, yes.

BTW - I never said that the teacher's lost, that was someone else. I believe you're given a good deal, if you wanted what you claimed to want.

Micky, do not use an apostrophe as a plural.

ie: The teachers lost.

It is the teacher's car.

A plural denoted possession of a noun.

sorry, up early, an apostrophe denotes possession of a noun. Well, off to bed. Good weather means work tomorrow at dawn, which is getting later these days.

The teacher's lost. Can't find her way. Geddit??

They going to 'blacklist' their own radio station, the one that beats steadily their talking points and without whom they'd be long gone? Hmm.

This is exactly what the bush admin did to that Irish interviewer. Exactly. And, they wanted her paper to fire her, but they would not. John McComb was being a journalist and it soumds like by his comment 'personally and professionally' he knows what they are like. If they can they'll punish him. But, if they get him fired, it's game over for them.
How dare he ask a real question. This just shows how corrupted CKNW really is that a matter of fact interview causes this reaction.

They are unravelling. Just like the Bush administration is. Finally the US press has awakened and they're getting 'real' and ours can do nothing but follow. They're just behind in time, that's all. Good grief. And, this is what it has come to. This is what it's come to. Now, they can't hide it any longer. Other people can understand what makes them tick, but they don't understand what makes other people tick and thus, take away ambush and technique, they have nothing.

Wow. Watching this unfold, it is so obvious this is about the privatization of public education.

The plant calls called in slamming Jinni trying to do damage control after the interview.

Thanks Bulltoss.

hey working guy the NDP are not my party of choice just the lesser of two evils I am an old socred who was betrayed by a corrupt and morally bankrupt party of used car salemen who took over after wacky left. They are calling themselves liberals now.

The liberals used our money to brainwash the gullible in our society into voting for them, what 5000 votes and it would be the ndp in power, hardly worth bragging about with all the money you spent

What is going to happen to your new era economy built on low interest rates and baby boomers when rates keep going up and up seen before will see it again, the market is already slowing around Victoria.

This new era is a lot of hot air and nonsense or the gullible!

GWNorth wrote,

Of course. And the teachers union is a very easy one to break. Just watch, if the vote is slighty in favor of rejecting the recommendations, say 60%, you will see great divisions.

You are right, if they accept this, the assaults will continue to come from the government. If they reject it, they will come within the union.

Teachers, more than any other union, are less likely to maintain solidarity. Of course, they do not have violence on thier picket lines, but they are sure willing to undercut each other at times. Some members revel in being seen as "martyr" for crossing the line and calling in radio shows, saying they are willing to cross. How many other unions would tolerate this?

However, once the teachers are down... who is next?

Total privatization of the educational system would be a good thing for teachers. Teachers would be able to choose the curriculum that they would teach as well as their "clientele" But not really for the public as a whole. But maybe the public really does not value "public" education enough to pay for it.

But ah, I now ramble.

Teachers, sadly, should vote "no", but have another vote again on Friday.

They should also consider renting community centers and church basements to offer tutorials for parents who do not have alternative childcare, and senior students who need exam prep.

Be creative, BCTF, be creative.

Oh, Working Man is back. Still living off the public tit you came back from Alberta to cling to? How's the gov't job going?

Hypocritical piece of shite

Working Man:

46% is not a plurality of voters. It may yield a plurality of seats. It still means 54% did not vote for the liberal game plan.

Perhaps that majority of voters should get some consideration when policy is determined?

ursus, you're wasting your time. Working Man has no knowledge of names like Ortona. He has no respect for this country or its history.

the right wing zealots don't see it that way Hga they have their heads buried in the sands of idiology or if you like idiotology!

probably not just another freeloader enjoying what these people fought for not just over seas but here at home so morons like him could sit back in the lap of luxery not realizing how good they have as they support a party quite will to turn on him like a pack of dogs!

What really gets me is the way they look down on the people who built this Province it wasn't built by the non-union guys from alberta who came here in the thousands when they were starving at home willing to undercut the locals out of a job. Many are still here spewing rhetoric like working man!

Hga, where are you, I wanted to give you the info you wanted. It was on the BCTF web site and now It's on the news. $60,580 per yearas an average.

I dont want this to get lost in the shuffle after you insulted me the way you did.

So, are you still disagreeing?

Lefties: Time for us to go to bed - or at least ignore the distractions of the wingnuts here. Let Worming Man and company(now in full panic mode) huff at each other till they run out of booze. Can their hearts take this excitement?

Teachers have been underestimated throughout this battle. We're used to it. Hasn't slowed us down...

Gotta sleep now so I can mark my 'X' very neatly and carefully beside the "NO!"

redrivergirl,

I imagine that Gordon Campbell will be phoning Corus corporate headquarters tomorrow and give them instructions to fire him.

One last bit of news. The Scottish Parliament had a motion introduced yesterday condemning the government of British Columbia, Canada, for their attack on public school teachers via unjust legislation. Don't know if it passed or not, but the rationale went on to say that the government's actions did not bode well for the success of a venture such as the 2010 Olympics.

Comrade is a technically appropriate term. You educator's should understand how the term's communion, communism and union are associated. Remember what U.S.S.R stand for.

You talk about freedom and democracy and yet you're all waiting for Jinny to recomend how to vote. That's priceless

Ever read 10 Lost Years by Barry Broadfoot, or his 6 War Years? Good reads, history from the mouth of the little guy.

Working Man should have had a taste of the 1930's instead of hypocritically living off the public tit while calling teachers "comrade".

Yes, Bulltoss, but maybe the rest in the industry will develop some chutzpah and stand up to them.

Micky:

I know the average salary. I also know that if I had stayed in Ontario, I would be making 15,000 a year more by next year.

But I like politics bette than winter.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted. What is your experience with teaching? Have you recently tried to teach a class of 33 with two different senior grade levels following two different curricula? Or perhaps you've been working with a class of 25 that has an unaided special needs kid who tries to attack others with scissors?
Your handle is "working man" Could you let us know what you do for a living, and what your salary is?
I'm sure you deserve what you're getting, and probably more.
Too often the bosses use our resentment of each other ( we all think the other guy has it easier and makes too much) to keep us in line.

If we're busy fighting each other they can go ahead and do whatever they want.

When I started working, CEO's made, on average 12 times the average salary of their workers. Now, that figure is 48 times. Meanwhile we slag each other.

I don't mean city and Deb Hope etc. We all know who.

Micky:
Sorry, I got caught up and forgot to whom I was talking. Although you and working man say many of the same things, your are distinct individuals.
Still my question: What do you do for a living and what is your salary?

Micky:

No one is waiting for Jinny. We've all met.
YOu might be surprised come monday.