Uncharted territory is the best way to sum up this issue. Reading telecom news you find that Telus, Bell and Manitoba Tel are all looking for favorable rulings from the CRTC with regard to VoIP, as the cable company's and other upstarts are biting away traditioanl telephone market share. So it's a new world of technology out there. Evolution should take thousands of years but we as a species can change the natural course of events with our activities. Thus our technology moves faster than we can truly adapt to it. I've never owned a pager or a cell phone, and if I do it will be for emergency's. Voice mail email, constant communications and just look at where it's got us. Frayed nerves when you don't get a response to your message. Expectations gone on steriods. "I need this and that, more of that, and I want it all tomorrow" I forget who did that routine. So much business relies on "just in time" transportation. We are setting ourselves up for a big fall if any of the components fail, but that's another story. I've posted earlier that the phone companies are not evil giants. They are caught up in this era of unprecidented change as well. These company's/utilities gave us dial tone for decades and with it slow steady change in technology, but that all changed in the last ten years. So much wasted efforts and energy in the wrong area's. We fail to see the impact of our actions when the evidence is mounting everyday.....thanks to instant communication on a global scale....you can see the destruction live and in color! Popcorn anyone?

Gordo was gung ho to privatize the Coquihalla right up until he learned that the Teamsters Union had the winning bid. The going concern from the business community was that the truckers might close down the highway in the event of a strike. Telus should also cut off the telephone service to it's strikers because the strikers might use a telephone to plot against thier company. Now that Telus has shown us that they can actually block sites, why doesn't Telus do us a real favor and block out nightmare junk e-mailings, or child porn or bomb making sites or the myriad of con artists promoting every scam ever thought of through Telus services.

The article is highlighting the fact that hundreds of other sites, hosted on the same server, were also blocked and this comes out as the main issue.

The main issue is that one site was blocked, this is bad enough without the side effects.

What is even worse is that probably not only Telus subscribers were affected. There are many small ISPs that provide ADSL and these ISPs are using Telus lines, my understanding is that these small ISPs and their customers were blocked as well. Not sure though.

As a Telus DSL customer, I'm not too impressed with Telus' heavy handed action here.
They should be more careful. This is poor p.r. as well as waving a red flag at legislators, "daring" or "begging" them to regulate against arbitrary site-access intervention by ISPs.
Telus has no monopoly. Customers can switch to other telecom ISPs or cable ISPs. If you as an ISP p*ss off your customers enough they are likely to carry out their own "intervention" against you!
A new black mark tallied against Telus, and counting.

There are more games played on the Internet than one can shake a stick at - and I'm not referring to solitaire, etc.

What we are talking about here is denial of service (DOS). To deny a paid-for service can fairly be equated with theft of that service.

This thread will doubtlessly develop into a broader analysis of the whole Web. That's not a bad thing - necessary in fact.

While the media has had much to say about spam and (more lately) of the fraudulent use of the Internet, it has had little to say about the harassment of users for the purpose of stifling dissent. Cynics might note that the campaign against spam might have something to do with the media's own advertising ox being gored.

I have found spam to be a trifling annoyance. As with many situations, the key question must always be asked: Who benefits? Certainly with computer viruses the answer has to be those who design and market the anti-virus software.

And of course the unions would never do anything even remotely as 'underhanded' as this. Living in glass houses...

More hurling of insults and jumping on one side or the other. Union good, union bad, blah blah blah.... Can we just cut to the discusion about the technology and it's impact please..... jesh.......

Drew McArthur's statement that “this was not an independent ISP making a judgment call,” is an oxymoron.

If Telus achieved a court injunction against the posting of objectionable content, and then acted to enforce the order, Mr. McArthur may be able to make this argument.

However, Telus did exactly the opposite. To use McArthur's own words, the corporation made "a judgement call" by denying access to the server that carried the site, and THEN went to court to request an injunction.

Telus has been misleading the public on this issue from the beginning. They claim that they are not union-busting, but they refuse to bargain with the TWU, take their offer directly to employees, and arbitrarily enforce conditions of work that would allow the company to contract out TWU jobs to third world countries, at a fraction of the rates they pay their own employees.

This company is anti-union, anti-worker, and refuses to abide by the legal framework governing labour relations in this country. There can be only one option for Canadians - cancell your telephone options, tranfer your personal, long distance, and internet account to another carrier for the duration of the dispute, and boycott Telus at every opportunity.

If these massive corporate entities cannot bring themselves to show respect for the workers who deliver their services to the public, they don't deserve to be in business in Canada. It's as simple as that.

See above... Did you get your name from throwing gas on fires and then standing around watching them? Why is it there seems to be more extremist intolerant views than ever? Can't you see that you add nothing to the mix. You are spewing vile that is typical of radical opinion that opposes any solution period. As Ricky says on the Trailer Park boys..."I've got three words for you....**** off....."

I don't think thats an appropriate response. I'm with Krispy in that Telus has really shown us that the Future is UNFRIENDLY. Unfriendly to the thousands of telus employees and equally so to the tens of thousands of Telus subscribers.

I know I'm personally fed-up with them and won't be using any of their products or services for the foreseeable future. I'm also encouraging friends and relatives to do the same, although most of them, tired from years of poor service and corporate arrogance, are already convinced.

I don't think its extreme to ditch Telus, in fact, it makes good business sense; more power to the consumer :)

Krispy got too close to the fire this time! Not appropriate huh? But a statement like "they don't deserve to be in business in Canada" is acceptable? Or how about "refuses to abide by the legal framework.....nonesense."
These statements are pure jibberish, no matter what you think of Telus. Actually it's BC Tel isn't it? If you're so unhappy with the service for these many years you are obviously refering to the incompetance that was in place long before Telus came along. Both of you go debate with Ron Erwin, these are obvious examples of pro union rhetoric. Pointless and solve nothing.

Clubofrome.. you are forgetting that Telus got itself in trouble about two years ago with the authorities because they understaffed the customer service department. People were complaining they were waiting over an hour on hold for a representative. Of course, your time is more valuable to Telus than it is to you. Waiting on hold for a service rep is the same as working for your employer for free as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Club... I did dump Telus. I explained to them that they should be paying me after they made my telephone number available to every marketing and research firm in the country. They explained to me that I could pay extra and then they would stop doing that. And then they promised to charge me hundreds of dollars in fees if I ever decided to be a Telus customer again. Now with all thier "managers" doing all the labour...well, everyone knows managers in large companies often get there because they can't do the job they were hired to do.

clubogrome -- I've been a Telus customer for some 30 years. When de-regulation came in, I resisted changing my long distance and home service plan. After a brief time with Rogers internet (Telus hi-speed service was not yet available in my area), I switched to Telus as soon as ADSL was available. I am the poster child of the faithful Telus customer.

However, when I looked into their labour dispute with the TWU (twu-canada.ca, and anotherwrongnumber.com, among others), I saw how Telus is systematically setting out to undermine the union's authority and set the stage for replacement workers during the strike, and to contract out our workers' jobs overseas. If that ain't union busting, I don't know what is.

Both the provincial and federal labour codes say that a recognized union is the official bargaining agent for the employees of a company or organization. Telus has simply refused to bargain with the TWU, and has encouraged union members to cross the picket line to act as replacement workers. That, my friend, is a bona fide example of "refusing to abide by the legal framework" as set out in provincial and federal law.

Then, if that wasn't enough, Telus management arbitrarily stopped collecting union dues through payroll deduction - in a blatant attempt to starve the union of the funds it needs to support its workers on the picket line.

Then Telus locked out their employees, by refusing to abide by the terms of their contract with TWU (all union collective agreements have a clause stating that the agreement remains in force until a new agreement is signed), and imposing their own version of a contract that would force members to work mandatory overtime, and require them to be on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

You may not like unions, 'club', but our laws say workers have a right to collectively negotiate the terms of their employment. If it weren't for unions, we'd all be working at WalMart for $6 an hour (because yes, union agreements do have the effect of raising wages and benefits in the non-union sector as well.

So, my friend, instead of relying on the last resort of all good conservative intellectuals -- flipping the bird -- why don't you take a moment to consider that another person may have a valid point of view, even if you disagree with it?

I'm generally fairly anti-union (at least public sector and white collar unions), but in this case, I think Telus deserves to stomach its own pandora. Since BC-Tel was dropped, they have been nothing short of an example of a bad company. There internet sucks, having to register you IP everytime you log in, their barnyard commercials are the scourge of city billboards, and this latest action is an offense more against their own customers (of whom I'm not one), than against the union.

For them to arbitrarily impose censorship = bad ISP. So if I was a Telus employee, I'd be looking for a new job anyways, cause with VoIP, and cell phones, the monopoly just ain't the same.

"having to register you IP everytime you log in"

Sounds like you have bigger problems than union-busting issues.

I have to agree that when BC Tel was dropped, things started their merry journey hellward. Dateline: corporatism: "Agenda in full flow, thanks for the nudge. Pls send cash to help with the cause. All is going according to plan.
Love, Scooter."

Now, I can't send cheques to MSP (err, Maximus. Silly me, I forgot the mailing address got changed.)

I moved to South Westminster a year ago and found I was two blocks from the local Telus coverage. Been a Shaw subscriber ever since, out of necessity.

Shaw's little better, however. Their political bias is blatant, but that's for another thread.

Think I'll be cancelling the ol' telly-o-phone at this point.

Listen Crusty, I'm as open minded as next looney on this site, but your point of view is extreme. ...And don't quote the "if not for unions crap" with me. Telus should not be allowed in Canada? What the hell kind of statement is that. You want to debate? Not much point if Telus is out of business. My personal belief is that no one should be collecting wealth more than they require as we push ourselves toward extinction. I think we can spend our energy in other more important areas. But when I see such an obvious anti Telus posting such as yours I'm going to challenge it. The bird is just my way of saying get serious or go away. I'm not going to debate collective bargaining with a fucking shop steward who probably works for Telus, so pick a specfic point you would like to make and we'll see if we can both learn something here. You can have the first and last word, cause I know you shop stewards like that.

Hey Eddy the sniper, I believe I asked you a specific question a while back after another of your sniper attemps. But no answer. As I have stated, I have worked in the communications industry and I know lots of people still there. The resident phone company in every region is a piece of shit and there is no shortage of ligitimate complaints. Lily Tomlin used to make light of the phone company back when TT key pads would have been a new feature. Everyone loves to hate the phone company. Years go by and tech changes.....Bell moves west, Telus moves east and now you can get phone service through your cable co. or an internet provider... Wireless options and just basic senses overload is what we can look forward to. I don't believe we need it. I thought it was fine 20 years ago.
For one, it has allowed enterprise to kick into an even higher gear. More sales, more movement of goods, more supply and demand...more more more. Sorry I just don't think the technology is essential to our well being, I think it takes away from our ability to see what is important. So The merger of Telus and BC Tel has had obvious problems, different agreements for it's workers, Alberta employess generally on side with what the company is offering, but here it's same old same old, and its just plain tired and boring listening to it. The industry changed period. What was, is no more. If Telus, or Bell for that matter, don't change and sit back and be POT's they're dead. And Krispy is out of work. So yes go for it! The members should squeeze as much blood out of the host as possible, share the wealth, right up until you kill the host. Because as we all heard earlier about the incompetence of management and workers alike at Telus, but that won't stop them from finding work elsewhere. Like Krunchy say's they're hiring at Wal Mart at $6 per hour.

Sorry Clubofrome,
Krispy has good points. Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he'a a shop steward for the union. I'm anti-Telus, and it started out having nothing to do with the union. Ever since Telus took over BC Tel they have done nothing positive for us. The first thing they did was cut thousands of jobs, which directly affected the customer service levels, including installing new lines. Then they instituted that stupid voice mail system (anyone remember when it just took you around and around? Imagine a telephone company that doesn't answer the phone? Weird.)And now they are making up their own rules when dealing with the union that they knew they were inheriting when they took over. No wonder the employees aren't loyal to them. BC Tel at least, answered the phone, had loyal employees and put in your new line "toute suite". Bad company. Bad management. There seems to be a real trend these days with all companies to provide the minimum service for maximum cost. We're going backwards.

My friend took his rolled coins to the bank the other day and later found out there was a $3 service charge. I guess they have figured out if it's a buck and and a half at the ATM they should charge double to talk to a real person!
SCG: Krispy may have some good points to make, but he takes himself out of the debate when he states "this company doesn't deserve to be in business in Canada." Sorry that's just a tantrum. I get that this province is pro labour, I get that this site is pro labour, and I'm pro labour, I've worked all my life...non union. Oh and just a quick walk down memory lane, BC Tel used to be a joke when it came to on time delivery of scheduled services. You could have a signed work order for the day and time, but if you didn't follow up, it was 50/50 if someone would actually show up to perform the scheduled work. They do that now and they WILL be out of business.
Yes we are going backwards, so just refuse to buy that blackberry your nieghbor just got. Anybody want a deal on a rotary phone?

Okay my first point is that Telus is making money hand over fist for the last few years. They have had 4.5 yrs to make a
deal and didn't . I could see their stand if the company was going threw hard times, but come on why the hard
stance. Its about an Alberta company getting ready to improve their bottom line and return more value to the shareholder.
Its pure greed, those over paid Telus employees can be replaced by temps or oversees labour. It's the trend all over
North America to make folks work harder for less, anyone with a good paying job will come under attack in the race to
the bottom.

Does anyone think that if Telus gets their way service will go up or prices will go down for their customers. Nope, just
more money to the bottom line and happy shareholders, and less money running threw our local economy, Telus
workers deserve to share in the companies profits. And don't expect any support from the BC Fiberals , Telus
is a major donor for them. I think they put in at least 50 - 75 K for Gordo. And I will say also, any company that
acts this way should be punished in the marketplace, I have switched my service and encourage others to do the
same, I also encourage others to support the picket lines. I am not a union member and have a private sector
employer that gives me a fair wage for my labour which I in turn put back into my local economy. Race to
the top.

As far as blocking the site, we think we are all so free but just try and criticize a big company and see how free you are. I think all the others sites that were shut down should put in a class action law suit against Telus for lost revenue .

Hello Stuart! Welcome to the "MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO, NO REAL FACTS REQUIRED BLOG!"
I believe Telus has stated that any current employee will remain employed if they happen to be one of the 350 jobs they look to contract out. The lies about contracting out in the paper you discribe are vehicle maintenance positions and coin counting as two examples. If Telus says they will retrain anyone displaced why isn't that good enough for you? Because you don't understand compromise. Organized crime, er labour, sorry, must compromise on some issues too. Why don't some of you "research technicians" dig a little deeper into what some of the issues are in this contract. Or did you want me to dig up a few myself. How many Telus union members does it take to change a light bulb?

You tell others about , facts but your comment "Organized crime, er labour"

shows your blind ideology, it seems that anyone who disagrees with you sends you off the deep end ,
and then you go on about compromise, as far as facts go check out the link, how of the press from
today's Globe, Telus profits up 10% this quarter. Now explain to us all how Telus is not being greedy
as far as trying to shaft its workers. Anyone who lives here in BC knows how good paying workers that your
like to attack and devalue are getting treated. Anyway, what is it that upsets up about organized labour,
is it just media indoctrination, stations like CKNW or Canwest which are both liberal supporters via financial
donations or is it just the fact you hate ordinary people standing up to a big bully, like the truckers who
just forced all those scummy companies like Wal Mart to pay up. Why do you care what Telus workers
get paid anyway, do you support the shareholders or do you like more money circulating in the economy
I may regret this but want to get into your head for a second. A guy that calls himself clubofrome LOL

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/RTGAM/20050805/wtelus0805

Anyway, you have to search the link for the story or just pick up todays paper. Fin section.

I assume that's for me Stuart? Thank you for your comments. I'll try and answer your questions.

I think I'm in the middle on this issue. Compromise being required means both sides give a little. Thanks for the Globe article by the way. As you can plainly see most of Telus success has come from the wireless side. The basket where 11/12 eggs reside. That aquisition cost over 5 billion. But lets not talk about the technology change or the competion out there, no you just continue to swing your big club at this and every other corporation I assume. I'm not even in the wading pool, it's the anti Telus stuff I'm reading that's in the deep end. I've already asked for some issues to debate so that we can all learn some thing here, but apparently english is not a language that's understood by everyone.
No I'm only presenting a moderate view here, as time will tell. Please tell me again why you think I'm upset? Or perhaps you are not used to assertive behavior? I see the anti Telus side here being upset and going off the deep end because I dare oppose the union's view of things. That's the same as you accusing me!

Now Stuart did you want me to go off the deep end with you? Or are you just testing my psychological maturity here? I think you know I like to play and have fun with this stuff, but I also want to learn, and so far I've heard nothing new.

Let's talk about the different labour cultures in AB and B.C. Since I come from AB. I would like to hear some arguments other than Telus profits up 10% gimme some of that. With that logic you should suit up like Robin Hood. What do you look like in green tights Stuart?
Can't you see I'm in transition here? Having left the pot of gold behind in search of more meaning I come here and this is the wecome wagon? Some of you have a lot to learn about hospitality. Pass the beer nuts....

clubby -- sounds like someone peedin your cornflakes this morning, or is that your usual pithy vulgar self? Way to make a point, friend - when you don't have a cogent argument, sprinkle your posts with expletives and put-downs.

If you're going to quote me, please do so in context. My original statement, for your reference, was, "If these massive corporate entities cannot bring themselves to show respect for the workers who deliver their services to the public, they don't deserve to be in business in Canada."

I still stand by that. It is, after all, the employees who deliver the services to customers and enable Telus to post a 49% growth in earnings between 2003 and 2004 (likely due, in part to Telus' massive layoff of employees and subsequent censure by the CRTC). In the same timeframe (2003 -2004), CEO Darren Entwistle's compensation grew 54% to $6.55 million; Telus Mobility CEO George Cope's compensation grew 88% to $6.74 million; elus CFO Robert McFarlane's compensation GREW 300% to $4.05 million.

Compare that to the fact that TWU employees received 0% wage increase from 2001 - 2004, add in the company's insistence that they be allowed to contract out jobs overseas, and be able to force employees to work overtime and be on call at all times, and then tell me that this in any way represents fairness or respect for workers. They even went over the heads of the legally recognized bargaining unit, the TWU, and released their contract offer directly to employees.

That is the very definition of an arrogant, dis-respectful, union-busting employer who will stop at nothing - even recruiting and employing scap replacement workers - to try to impose their will on their employees.

I got news for you, friend, this ain't Texas, and Entwhistle ain't George Bush. This is Canada, and noone should respect an employer who has no respect for their own employees and their bargaining representative.

And in answer to your charge, I am not a union shop steward, and I don't work for Telus. What about you? Are you one of the scab 'managers' who's been recruited by Telus, or are you one of the 'Pinkerton Boys' hired to bust the union?

OK Krispy, I don't want to ruin your weekend so point to you. Out of context, but it's still a sour flavour I'm tasting! I don't think you have read everything I've tried to say here today either. I sense someone has put a burr under your saddle too. Do you wanna talk about it? Or perhaps you'll feel better after you go out tonight and have a couple of cold "union mades" and then later, hack out a three foot section of Telus property for the "copper cash." Pithy? Vulgar? Moi? Surely you jest!

Growth in earnings would have a bit to do with the Clearnet aquisition. That's the 5 billion dollar addition 5 years ago. It's wireless, where the future is according to the corporation. Telus also had to merge 5 unions, or 5 agreements and TWU was the winner probably on the strength of the number of employees here in BC. This isn't for you Krispy, it's the life ring I'm throwing out there hoping someone will rescue my sinking *** here! I'd say you have a strong case for those already converted, but what, Mr Smarty Pants, have you got for the rest of us?

I remember growing up in Alberta, cap gun at my side....faithful Hobby pony beneath me, stetson 2 sizes too big.... and I would dream of being a "Pinkerton" when I got older...

club, referring to organized labour as organized crime kind of paints you into the same ideological corner with nemesis who can also be counted on to make such outrageous statements. Is that what they taught you in the Alberta education system?

and quit eating all of our beer nuts

I corrected myself! It was one of those ...you know....freudian slips!! Come on....doesn't anyone believe me? I can't believe I'm out here on this branch all by myself and you are all below sharpening the saw! Come on, read it again, it was funny!

Frank, I know you are joking about the comparison, but if you mention me and another certain individual that I cannot mention because of my many convictions to not ever mention him again, except for one last time, I will mention with just his initials (Ron Erwin) then you and I will be a feudin.

Krispy , good comments, the basic point minus all the tit for tat is that Telus is a highly profitable company due to the hard working employees that keep it afloat. The executives don't mind rewarding themselves as you
have pointed out , their conduct and disregard towards their staff is vulgar and should not go unpunished.

and clubofrome referring to already suffering workers who are fighting for their rights as organized crime is not having fun , its ignorant. If a company is making record profits it should reward its workers not try
to stick it to them, never mind the Robin Hood Crap, If you have been in BC the last few years you should know what's going on, the current government is very anti labor and is willing to go any extent to bust a union, The crime rates, homeless and poverty rates in BC are the fastest growing in North America, yet
the blushing tax cuts only benefited very few. The goal is to drive down wages in most sectors. Explain how this benefits a community , once the real estate bubble busts and commodities go down we are in for a shock.
Stupid right wing economics aka race to the bottom.

The main difference between BC and Alberta is the fact we have spirit and are not going to roll over. Even with this extreme government , we won some battles and made them back off. We will shut the province down and would be in our right if push comes to shove. Welcome to the left coast , get on side with some bear nuts, a nice toke and see you down at the PIC , have a good weekend.

Sorry for not responding to your questions club. I don't monitor this site much so if you really need an answer when questioning one of my opinions then go get some counselling because I cannot help you. You made a statement that suggested Telus was a great company that has better service than BCTel provided. I think Telus over-rates thier product. We disagree. Hope you enjoy your service with them.

I've just made an appointment with my counsellor for tonight Eddy, and she makes house calls! I just wanted you to be aware that I've noticed you nipping at my heels on a few issues, but when I turn around to see what it is you want you are gone. Like a sniper taking pot shots then poof! So here's an easy one for you Eddy, where did I say Telus was a great company?

You do have to read between the lines with this type of communication, and I learned today that you folks are very passionate about your labour issues. I will try and temper my view so as not to offend, but to learn more about your concerns. I feel that we are creatures of different cultures meeting for the first time! Like in Alien. Kidding.... lighten up! Stuart, likewise, and what's PIC?

Club... you are the one who is defending Telus. You must think it is a great company because why would one stick up for a group of guanno-heads who can't adequetly provide a service everyone wants and many people need, and treats it's employees as if they were stationery? And how does Telus treat it clients? They invent service charges to nickle and dime you and hype bogus services to help inflate your bill. Telus has a problem that goes way beyond thier labour difficulties. It would appear more like Telus doesn't give a damn about the it's workforce or thier clients.

All of you who say you want to switch to other carriers, or who have already done so, illustrate the point of this dispute exactly. Telus is no longer a monopoly that can have a fat cat contract filled with the featherbedding of the past. There are competitors like Bell and Shaw that have good, well-paying but flexible contracts with their unions that allow the companies a much greater ability to compete. The dinosaurs in the TWU fail to recognize that, and still wish we were in the 1970's when we could only choose the BC Tel and AGT monopolies.

And what the hell is a long distance administration charge anyway? I thought you paid for that when you paid your long distance charges.

club, I would never put you in the same league as Ron Erwin but as for feudin', that depends if you eat all my beer nuts and whether you come from southern Alberta or the normal half?

Telus has been up to these tricks for a long time.

Remeber the 'Day of Defiance'? The IMC Victoria and Vancouver sites both went down that day. Telus said that it was 'an account error'. Same thing happened later that year when Jeff Bray office was occupied and we were using the sites to moblize support for the women inside.

Earlier this year we started up Kamloops IMC. Telus phoned our host and asked him if there was anything 'controversial' being hosted on his server. They told him that thier upstream router was under attack. I somehow doubt it. They basically strong-armed into dropping us off of the server or lose his buisiness access.

I have no proof that anything here was deliberate, if I did we would sue for violation of service agreement.

It could just be typical Telus service!

Thanks for the article, Tom. It made me consider some Japanese job posting websites where postings for union websites are restricted such as eslcafe.com and gaijinpot.com.

nambufwc.org

I cracked up when I skimmed through the latest BC Business magazine. There is an article that begins with a quote from one of Telus' VPs of HR.

The topic of the article: "motivating employees to wore better".

"motivating employees to work better". sic correction

Darn it dangrice, I liked the first title better

This is the arrogance that drove me from Telus -- at one time they had my local service in Vancouver and on the island; my long distance; my cell and my high speed internet. They just do not goive a shit about customers -- and put untrained, underpaid, green "customer reps" who don't know their *** from a hole in the ground... and THEY DON'T CARE what this merans to the customer.

Twice the saps who are "tier one" support for their ADSL told me I needed to "re-install Windows" when the problem was with their hardware. (A blown switch, and a blotched "upgrade" to the local above-ground cables.)

More recently -- my "retry busy signal" service stopped working -- I had to go through literally EIGHT differnt people before I could find someone who gave me the 30-second instructions to re-activate it.

Senior management just does not are about the level of service. They've caught a wave with a growing mobile market, and their strategy is to catch that wave rather than invest in building long-term customer loyalty.

Today my long distance is sprint in Vancouver and the island; my local and toll free service in Vancouver in Sprint; my high-speed Internet is Shaw and my mobile is Rogers. The minute I can switch my local service in the Island to anyone else it's good fucking riddance to my last connection to those arrogant, smug, unaccountable senior executives at Telus.

Their relationship with the union is just another facet of this same short-sighted arrogance. I wonder if these guys aren't on steroids.

Oh Goody, Looks like I can have the lasr word on this. Dear Eddy: Try reading and learning. I must think Telus is a great company because I oppose some extreme views? This is what you think, and that I am defending Telus. My original comments were that this is a changing technology that has put more competetion in the market for an already over stressed consumer. I'm happy with a phone period, and except for alternative media the computor would be out the door too. So don't tell me what I'm defending, and what I think is great, because you missed the point. You see a debate here and assume I'm attcking Krispy because I'm pro Telus. In fact I think Krispy made some excellent points and I happen to more on his side now than I was before. Just on the point of the big salaries, no one deserves that much money on the backs of others and if corporate profit is the only name of the game then I will side with the workers. But, on the other hand, many communications companies have gone bankrupt, I worked for one, US owned. Nortel almost slit it's own throat, and long term survival is not assured for all the players. There is a risk involved here. As you can see every ruling it seems favor the corporations, and it hust looks and smells like collusion more and more. Corporations have us in the whirlpool now, and we are getting sucked in. But the telcos while all being hated in there own regions are not Monsanto or Cargill. This is where the efforts should be concentrated. Where the true evil lies. Other corporations are just playing a game of follow the leader. Laws need to be challenged. For example, the Nature of Things this past weekend on ship breaking. A job that used to be done here is now done in India. You see it was regulated here because so many of the older ships have toxic material in them, makes taking them expensive to break down. So to get around that we sell them as scap metal to India. Now they beach the vessels and break them down with no concern for the toxic clean up. Loop holes like that must be challenged in the courts. You can't just let corporations get away with that short sighted madness. It's insane! OK, I hope that clarify's my position Eddy, and you still didn't really answer my question. But I will spare you any further embarasment in front of these other nice people.

Now on to more important matters.....FRANK: HA!!! Southern Alberta or the normal half! That's funny stuff Frank. Remember the Flames/Oilers in the 80's? Stamps/Eskimos
Cannons/Trappers...... That is truly a world class rivalry Edm vs. Cal. Remember the bumper sticker we'll trade Edmonton for Fernie?
That summed it up nicely I thought. There was something else Edmonton was famous for? A mall or something. Never been there of course, but I guess if it's too cold to go outside.....

the PIC, is the Piccadilly pub downtown, a small corner stone of the revolution. (good beer to)

clubofrome, you Alberta stripes are showing . Their are 3 ways a corporation makes more money 1) becomes more innovative, new products or ways to deliver service. (rarely done)
2) Increase the cost of its products or services ( rarely done)
3) Cuts cost, usually in the form of layoffs or outsourcing, ( the new age way of shafting the people who helped you get where you are)

Sorry but the competitiveness thing is a joke, poor Telus making record profits needing to be more competitive. Would Telus be where it is without loyal hard working employees, who knows.

I worked at Bell Canada years ago just when competition came into the market place, Sprint etc. Everyone knew that Sprint was cheaper but the majority of folks stayed with Bell for other reasons, good service etc, being the cheapest is not always the answer , many know that you get what you pay for.

Stats Can said that last month 45,000 high paid industrial jobs left and their was an increase of 25,000 service sector jobs. So we lost high paid jobs and end up with more jobs at the mall. Our economy cannot sustain this, the growth in Canada last month was largely due to increased dept by Canadians. Everyone wants their customers to be rich but wants to pay its workers peanuts. Just becasue other companies are acting in an unethical way does not make it okay.

We are driving with the lights off at a 100 miles an hour, with no seat belt on. Any company that has enriched itself
in this environment should be required by law to keep so many workers here and have some standards of behavior.

What stripes?!? I try to understand the flavour of BC and it's attitude toward labour and I sense a condescending approach on your part. But I'm sure that's not your intention is it? Where do aquisitions fit into the 3 ways a corporation makes money? For example Telus buying Clearnet. I don't trust corporate accounting anymore than I trust the Governments accounting. So these record profits you speak of must tie into the share price having dipped down to around $5 and now back up to $44, where it was before the crash. So pretend I don't know anything about accounting or investing. Now explain to me this record profit thing you speak of. How does it fit in with the debt load, remember Clearnet cost over 5 billion. I see the traditional telco as a thing of the past. If Telus thinks wireless is the way to go then in their minds they are on the right path. The workers who have walked off the job will one day likey go back to work, for Telus. How will they justify working for this evil Corporation. Only if they get what they want, or will they hold out for more corporate resonsibility? I still see this as money, for both sides, both parties pulling in opposite directions. I'm all for keeping the jobs here. They don't need to contract out anything if they don't want too. They could continue status quo with keeping all jobs in house, but what will the TWU give back? These outsourcing jobs, that go overseas, may one day come back. Because for China and India we could be the cheap labour of the future. Note US debt now in Trillions. China is a creditor nation, and have privatized nothing. But I don't think they have much union representation there either.

Except for the wingnuts, I think that most of the posters here are on the same side. Socially aware, searching for truth and justice and hopefully wanting a better world to live in. Possibly even having a world to live in for their grandchildren.

So if by Alberta stripes you mean inquiring, thought provoking I'll go along with that...

Please accept my apology , I just see the buzz words of the Neo Con and go into automatic defense . The words
flexibility and competitiveness never favors the vast majority of workers. Telus in general ( without the forensic
accounting explanation) is a profitable company that can do the right thing if it had the will to. It however does not
have the will to, it has been a large Fiberal donor and expects some pay back aka , weaker union or lowered standards
improving their bottom line. Oh and Enron was into buying companies and investing in ventures to hide debt, aka
latest CIBC settlement of 2.4 bil, this is an old shell game. Share value basically means nothing, companies like Telus shaft workers when the economy is in a downturn and say they need to be more competitive in up turns.

As a victim of Telus's appalling customer disservice here in the boonies, I take issue with the subtitle of this otherwise OK article. I hate it when every strike or lockout is called a "labour dispute". It's 99% a Managment Dispute. Calling such conflict a "Labour Dispute" makes it seem as if Labour had power. We wish! Such labelling belies the HUGE powers of the employers in this country. The only power we have as workers is to withdraw our work and services--and even that is not allowed under some of the draconian laws this lovely government put in. (Yeah, you in 'Alaberta' have the same lousy laws). Even the little bit of law there is on behalf of workers and employees is blatently ignored by all corporations and levels of governments. Even arbitrators' decisions are 80% skewed in the employers' favour. Vince Ready's decisions aren't noticably any better than the rest of the lot. For some reason, arbitrators assume that there is already equality in the workplace. Ha! If that were so, there would be a lot less bankruptcies, for we workers could stop some of the managerial stupidity that leads to most bankruptcies--including stopping the engineered bankruptcies that modern corporate pirates are so fond of these days. Alas, the Law of the Land states that the owners/managers have the right to mismanage their own companies--regardless of the effect on the workers and customers. We workers are still considered "servants", and darn near the property of employers! The Boss is the Master and bosses like Telus'CEO (with the appropriate name of Endwhistle--LOL!) are so arrogant, they forget that their customers are workers, too! What a darn mess! Mme. La Guillotine, where are you these days, dear? Would you consider coming out of retirement?

What if the union movement adopted a hard line corporate responsibility motto. Less for themselves and more for clean technologies and social responsibility by the corporation. They have the means to adopt this type of policy and therefore play a leading role as change agent. Make the fight less about Management vs. Labour, more about sustainability and responsibility. This has to be the wave of the future as it's is only a matter of time before we all find ourselves sharing the same life raft....

Good posts clubofrome and Marysue, I say the responsibility memo should have clauses that keep 95% of the jobs here or you don't do business here whatsoever. We supply tax breaks to corporations, they only pay a tax rate of 14 % vs. 42% they used to, we supply subsidized education( wealth of educated employees) subsidized health and a safe place to do business, cheap and accessible resources, access to infrastructure and the like. They in turn should supply good paying jobs the community or else we remove their corporate charter and nationalize the company and run it ourselves.

I'll come out of retirement to run the HR department. "Entwhistle...step into my office for a sec...."
I love my dreams....

The math is simple, take 13,000 Telus employees who tell 10 friends and family to cut the service and email the names and #'s and compile a list. Now were at 130,000 names on a list, have the friends and family sign up another 5 or 6 folks and then present the list to Telus. Either you back off or we cut 200- 400,000 customers tomorrow. That means , cellular, long distance and internet. Take them down with the ship. And have all these folks stage media rallies and parades trashing Telus around the city.

Well Stuart, my final thoughts on this thread will be I think there should be compromise and just get on with it. I believe if the union movement is too radical that the corporations will get even nastier than there are now. They already lie cheat steal, so what is gained by provoking them? They have the power for now, until we can revoke their charters and hold them accountable for all their actions against man and nature. But I can also see a point in the future where we all must strike, a general strike to get attention to our plight. In the mean time I don't think all of the Telus employees would agree with you on closing down the company. We all need an income to survive right?
Now I have to go fend off an attack from RabidCow on another thread.

says clubofrome.

First, the usual obligatory preface, of unions aren't perfect... but they are needed ...especially in the neo-con rule of today. The reasons corporations have the power now is precisely because unions have not been radical enough or used their own strength as exhibited in inventive ideas like Stuart's above.

They have continually forfeited important ground (that was won by hard struggle) until bit by bit they have found themselves backed up against a wall into an almost immovable place.

You ask what is gained by provoking corporations..as if corporations themselves aren't the greatest of provocateurs?

What is gained by always being afraid to?

I'm just looking for answers Lynn. You respond with more questions. Yes I'm asking what is gained by biting the hand.... What are the hard wins that have now been lost? Is every union member concerned for the future of our species or are they just looking out for number one? It's time for change and the TWU is not leading the way. So what organization is? Who can organize this group of concerned citizens into a cohesive group with a common goal? Yes I'm afraid of the future, and for future generations. I'd like to see citizens finally find the true meaning of life besides collecting stuff and hoarding wealth. I thought perhaps the union movement might be able to see this as an opportunity to effect change, but I don't see it in this edition of the TWU.

clubofrome: Hope, you weren't going to say "what is gained by biting the hand that feeds you". Since that "food chain" is an interdependent one, with all parts linked and necessary, there really is no "one hand" that feeds, despite management's deluded claim to that territory.

I would like to see unions as you say effecting change, but that too, is an interdependent process and requires that ALL players in the process do their part...management is not exempt from the process... for too long workers have had to take less and less in the name of sustainability as management takes more and more under the same guise.

I'm with you on the false need of more and more stuff, the best things in life really are free, like the wind and sunflowers. I must admit I do have just a few guilty pleasures and a few pretty "things" that I just like...I'm trying...but as far as a buddhist monk...next lifetime... :-)

In our (authority's) hysterical embrasure of all things private, has anyone bothered to ask whether the privatization of infrastructure comes with a legal obligation for the operator to serve the public? Or has it been merely assumed? As Eddy Haskel noted:

So, if the dams and highways and hospitalset al are privatized, can the owners/CEOs just shut them down at will? If these services are considered "essential", if this does happen, either through bankruptcy or deliberate actions, are there plans to take over the service and run it "for the public good"? Or must we go through the all-too-familiar court battles to determine the legality of such moves, and in the meantime users/subscribers are literally dying for lack of expected service?
How about this scenario, using Mr. Haskel's example of the Coquihalla:
If it were privatized, when there is a vehicle accident, one that blocks the road for hours at a time, causing other users to lose time, money, their contracts for non-performance, and/or their jobs, resulting in bankruptcy and the loss of their houses, etc. etc., is the private operator under obligation to make this up?

Good questions, RickW. If I remember some of the leg debates correctly, much of the liability for losses seemed to fall in the end back on the province...then there is the whole question of having access to the details of privatizations, as in BC Ferries.

As citizens our private information has of late been put at risk but the privacy of corporations, on the other hand, is well-protected against the enquiries of the public.

What is also overlooked in these privatization deals is the cost of government advertising "the so-called benefits" of the privatization... in order to convince the public to sell-off critical public assets. The BC Liberals botched Coquihalla attempt at privatization did not come cheap for BC taxpayers.

Lynn: I think I see what you are getting at with interdependant.... a feed back loop. Ideally you want a positive one, but I think we are more used to seeing a negative one. What would it take to get to an interdependant relationship..."love corporate style" (Dub in theme from love american style...) Because I see it as adversarial, and then you could go into genetic predisposition for competition and soon Ron Erwin would want to know what interdependant meant..... this could get very complicated.....
Leadership, or being true to yourself may not depend on what the other guy is doing. We may have to sacrifice while others around us keep hoarding the nuts. It's frustrating to watch, and some day it will lead to violence in our own back yard, not just the other side of the globe. But by all means please continue to buy 300 foot mega yachts I prefer the target on your back than mine....
I'm going sailing tonight and then some ice cold "union mades" Life is good today.

lynn:

....and it is damn near impossible to hold the province liable for interrupted services. Win-win for the corps....

The way I see it, if what may be termed "essential" services are privatized, then contracts should be drawn up between the provider and each and every user, and would be unique to these two parties.There would NOT be blanket contracts, filtered through government. These contracts would stipulate penalties for interrupted services. The functioning of society cannot happen on an adversarial basis -- everything would grind to a halt while the lawyers had a field day. The backup (threat if you will) for non-performance would be in the form of a hold-back on the negotiated fee. So if Hydro were privatized, the deal between Ms. Jones at such-and-such address would be taylored to these two parties - and so on and so forth. It is far too convenient for so-called "privatization" to foist itself entire towns and cities without going to each and every subscriber. It's like cable TV. There is no negotiation for rates and services between the cable company(s) and the subscribers, and there certainly isn't any free enterprise competition. The so-called private services are in fact monopolies.

(sorry! I get so angry over these things)

RickW: Interesting proposal. It is ironic, isn't it, that those who complain the most about public assets not being competitive reveal their true colours in the insatiable monopolies they create...it's not competition they want but absolute control.

We are about to have privatization "foisted" on the ferries just south of where I live. David Hahn says our ferry system is "undervalued" and wants to create a world class system...he left out the part about the accompanying world class rates for passengers...not to mention the effect this will have on food prices, freight, safety issues etc... and of course the ferry workers themselves.

(Let's just say you are far from alone in your anger).

clubofrome: Our 300' mega yacht is 276' short. It was a work boat for a number of years, then it was glammed up a bit for wilderness adventures...the tourists loved it but we missed our solitude... so now its just a well-earned guiltless pleasure... and every once in awhile we even manage to catch one of those elusive Coho's.

27' is my guiltless pleasure. Far, far in the future, when gas and diesel are faded memories.... sailboats will once again rule the sea.