It is my opinion that Wal-Mart actually orchestrates the anti Wal-Mart movement. The Wal-Mart game is and always has been adversary controversy. Otherwise it would just be another MacDonalds on the block.

I do not support walmart, absolutely refuse to give that company a dime of my money, will happily pay more for the same item if I can find it in a Canadian store! I am not so poor or so cheap and greedy that I have to give them my business! It is like the self serve gas stations I deal with the local co-op because they wash my windshield, check my oil if I let them and the product comes from Saskatchewan!

If everyone supported the local industries and manufacturers maybe we could keep the money in this country instead of making executives and investors in the states rich!

Peak oil is going to have a huge impact on cheap off shore products.

Interesting, somewhat, Saul's excerpt in another thread where he writes of choice and uses the word "citizen". I certainly don't know the solution in this age of lust for discount shopping but, have observed how I am no longer a citizen - lament, taxpayer.

I have also observed, by purposefully and resolutely detaching self from most partisan processes that politicians, bureaucrats, lobbyists and the like are becoming adept at the disunification of communities.

Man, council in Campbell river sounds fun.

While I despise Wal-mart and will not shop there (raised on small business dollars), under a capitalistic system we can't just refuse them the right to open a store. But on the other hand, granting them the right to open one will destroy local business and therefore the economy. Based on that, I think an exception to the rule can be made and I hope Campbell river realizes the kind of destruction Wal-mart inflicts upon local merchants... especially in a city that size. Hopefully they'll tell wally-world to bugger off.
What really makes me sick though, is the Canadians that shop at these places without regard for their local merchants. Who, at least in my Father's industry, aren't any cheaper anyway.
Eventually it'll be a bunch of Canadians making bad wages with all of their money being drained to the US.

Allan, though I detest the Walmart mindset as much as most folks, I doubt that its presence is the cause of deterioration of the Kamloops downtown core.

That deterioration started decades back when the town planners thought that by increasing the city’s land base they would also increase the tax base. But they failed to realize that commercial core success is density dependant (permanent residents in close proximity to the downtown core not transient tourists) and mistakenly believed that folks living in the hinterland sprawl up the North Thompson, Barnhartvale, Edith Lake, South Sahali and Aberdeen could be forced to drive downtown to do their shopping. It’s a poor-planning, shopping-mall story that isn’t unique to Kamloops.

In the United States, WalMart is becoming a dirty name. Offering cheap goods until the established businesses go broke then jack up prices much higher and reduce quality of goods. In California, the state is taking Walmart to court because it was putting its employees on state medical lists and not, itself, paying any medical benefits. Another 21 states are now looking into this matter.

Big box stores are a cancer on the consumer, as they take away choice. Believe it or not, my pressure reducing valve broke and I had to get a new one, ordering one would take up to 7 days for delivery. I went to Rona, Hometown, every big box harware store from Richmond to Langley - no dice - no one had one.

In desperation I went to my local Home Hardware to order one and low and behold he had one is stock!

Goes to show why we should support local business.

KWD, you make some good points. In fact one might take it back to the late '60s or '70s when the city allowed Bentall Properties of Vancouver to open up what is now known as Aberdeen.

There is still much unfinished business and history on that agreement, but I won't delve into it here.

However, the true crunch came only in recent years and despite a full Official Community Plan that, if followed, might (should), have kept the focus on the downtown core.

The official plan encouraged residential and retail infill in the core, with reduced development cost charges hung out as carrots for developers to bite on.

In fact, the process was working in Kamloops in the late '80s and '90s as condos, seniors' apartment complexes and a general increase in population became evident.

Once the OCP was amended for the Great Canadian Superstore to locate at Columbia and McGill in Sahali on cheap, former city landfill property developers had picked up for a song because the city was committed to not having it developed.

Suddenly the big box genie was out of the lamp.

Within months virtually every large retailer had bailed out of the downtown and the north shore to relocate in the Sahali/Aberdeen area.

Yes there is a growing population in Aberdeen
and I'm sure a few dozen people around Edith Lake or Knutsford who benefit from the now convenient downtown (uptown), but the vast majority of people in Kamloops are still closer to shopping in the DT or on the North shore than they are today in Sahali.

The newer areas like Aberdeen and Pineview will never grow far beyond their base now, essentially because of the prohibitive cost of servicing homes with water.

It's already one of the most expensive water delivery systems in the world thanks to the elevations the liquid has to be pumped.

In fact a majority of Kamloopsians have to drive through or by DT or the north shore to even reach Sahali.

Since the bottom has fallen out of retail downtown the drive for residential development is also dropping downtown, except for seniors facilities.

Yes Kamloops has a history of bad community planning, but it also has a history of bad political decision-making, both factors in this city's current retail mess.

I hold to my argument that it was the city's decision to allow Walmart into the new area that broke the DT's back.

There are some missing elements to the story:

1. How did land near the estuary get zoned for this purpose or is rezoning the issue?

2. Has staff recommended approval of the project or rezoning? If so, what's the case advanced in the CAO's report to Council?

3. Is opposition organised under anyone's leadership?

4. How has the local press positioned itself?

5. How many people have signed a petition or petitions?

6. Walmart was involved in a similar battle in Courtney not all that long ago and it prevailed, I believe. What can be said about its tactics in either situation? How has it managed to get as much Council support as it has? Are the pro-Walmart councillors connected to real estate or other businesses that stand to benefit directly? What is known about them.

I look forward to an update on the story with answers to some or all of these questions.

You people are going after the wrong argument here. If you want to protect your estuary and your fish, don't start balking about environmental issues. What you should be doing is having some UNIONS making noise about how they're going to unionize Wal-Mart employees. Wal-Mart cares a LOT more about that than some random estuary or fish!

Anyone want to put some money on that?

To answer homo civicus' questions:

1.The land is not zoned for this activity - that is part of Wal marts proposal - that and an amendment to the OCP to extend the "downtown core" out to the area including the estuary.

2.The Town Planner has given his approval to the re-zoning based on reports commissioned by Wal Mart that state there will be no negligible effect to fish stocks and wildlife at the estuary due to Wal Mart locating there.

3.There are basically 2 main "organized" groups in opposition to this proposal - one is a polite but vocal group who say they are not opposed to Wal Mart - just this site. They have been holding weekly protests, at the estuary and lately downtown since March, attracting from 50 to 200 people. The other group is more focussed against Wal Mart as a corporation and in replacing Town Council with councillors more in tune with their ideas. They are also in favour of preserving the estuary.

4.There are 2 papers in town - one basically ignores the situation while the other has been extremely supportive to the pro-estuary side (the editor is a local flyfisherman)and printing most of the hundreds of letters to the editor as well as many many editorials against this plan.

5.There have been approx. 2000 signatures signed to petitions against. There were 556 letters/emails to Council against the proposal, 4 in favour. In a write in poll taken by the supportive paper over the last few weeks, the results were 1891 against, with 331 for the proposal. At last nights hearing, over 5 1/2 hours and with a 5 minute speaking limit - 56 people spoke out against the proposal - 1 in favour.

6.It's very hard to figure what the Council will do - out of 7, including the Mayor, 2 are not in favour, my guess is one is for, 3 are on the fence and the Mayor is for the re-zoning. His issues are to do with the CR Indian BAnd - see Quenton Dodd's previous article for info on this.

And to address BAckpacker - the union issue has been raised - Campbell River is considered a strong union town.

Two things stick in my mind from last night's hearing. The one pro Wal Mart speaker was a First Nation's man who basically chastised those against the proposal because the natives are simply trying to get back what was once theirs (the site in question)and their means of doing this is thru Wal Mart who will lend them the money to buy the property,then lease the property from the Band. I fear that some councillors, like the Mayor, will use this as the reason to vote in favour.

On a hopeful note, there was a representative from Nature Conservancy Canada, who, at the end of his presentation told the crowd that NCC has been in touch with Timberwest (the current owners of the property) and if this re-zoning is defeated they will purchase the land and preserve it, as has already been done with much of the estuary. My hope is that this promise, along with the information that no more money will be forthcoming to the city from NCC if this re-zoning goes through, will sway some of those fence-sitters to vote against this proposal.

How often does any council turn down development? Almost every time!

Walmart apparently has lots of media fans, the latest to jump in to support the US retail dollar vaccuum cleaner is the Globe&Mail's Gary Mason in todays edition.

No Mason doesn't tell you about the cheap underwear, but lauds the company's efforts to take on the "socialist-leaning" Vancouver city council, which initially rejected an application for South Vancouver.

Mason doesn't tell you much about the objections that have been raised about the business practices of this giant retail-sector buster, or its history of importing sweatshop or child made products, it's union busting tactics across North America or anything about its seemingly endless practices of intimidating workers into providing free work.

Absolutely nothing of the various human rights or labour laws it has been found to be less than balanced about, or about the aftermath when smaller competing retailers have closed their doors laid off their workers and left dead zones throughout the community.

No, Mr. Mason is a fan, an outspoken fan who rather than report on plans about today's Vancouver City Hall decision on the Marine Drive and Main St. store proposal, editorializes blatantly in favour of the company.

Of course he noted Walmart is planning to double the cost of tht store by adding environmental goodies like windmill-generated power, rainwater catchment for toilets and parking lots tht absorb rainwater rather than flushing it into storm sewers.

But Mason's math is a bit suspect. He claims Walmart will spend $30 million (again), double what the company normally spend.

That's a bit odd unless construction costs have plummeted in recent years because Walmart had been spending (according to its own figures), more than $20 milion per smaller store until recently.

Regardless, the Globe@Mail has spoken.

Riverliver, thank you for the update and the news that a long line of one stood up to support this project.

However, my fear is that, as in other BC communities, Campbell River's local council members may determine that the 56 people who showed up to speak against Walmart's plan are not consumers and that the lone supporter is and so consumers win as they always do, right?

I don't mean that last parapgraph as a joke. In Kamloops, city politicians came right out and stated they were looking out for local consumers when they backed Walmart's project in 1999 to the chagrin of the hundreds of citizens and taxpayers who turned out to oppose the plan and got ignored.

NOTE TO FREEBEAR, your statement is about the silliest I've seen yet on municipal politics.

Show me one municipality in BC that has a record of turning most development projects down at public hearings.

I think it was sarcasm, allan.

Te Aro Arahina, It would be refreshing if it were.

Allan, for what it's worth: The City of Vancouver just turned down the latest Walmart proposal.

Perhaps your concern is contagious. Get out your fly rod, a few good chironomid patterns and head for the shallows at the south end of Roche :-)

What the Globe and Mail failed to mention is that the windmills WILL NOT work. It is simply greenwashing. The statement that they will generate power is a LIE.

Here is what one of the experts Wal-Mart hired to assess the wind mills said:

I have insisted that it will be a very poor choice to install turbines at a site where they will be standing still most of the time. They remain firm in their belief that they do want the turbines. It's certainly a greenwash on their part."

And here is what a BCIT instructor specializing in renewable energy had to say about the windmills:

This is just too delicious. Wind turbines as props. One must wonder what these guys WON'T try to do to develop in Vancouver.

I just can't wait for Walmart's Canadian spokethingy to try explaining that little number to the media.

Sounds like they ought to put a couple in their planning department though.

KWD, thank you for the news and the fishing tip.

Alas my luck with the finned crowd is dismal, but I happen to know a very, very good friend who is finally arriving home here on Friday with a few frozen Arctic Char tucked away in her baggage.

To be sure, she will have my undivided attention, at least until I've sated myself on as much flesh and oil as I can in one sitting.

I used to think Sockeye was the best tasting fish I had ever eaten and then I went north and tasted this northern gem, so good and oily you can eat them raw. I've already sharpened my ulu in anticipation of that first tender bite.

Well, I've just finished the morning Globe with its Vancouver rejects Walmart headlines and I am disappointed.

That's not in the headline or the specific decision, but in the Globe for giving such a barebones account of the decision.

Yes, there is mayor Campbell's pic showing him looking very uncomfortable before being one of only three on council to support the mega-store plan.

But there isn't a word about the unbeleivable effort by Walmart to bullshit its way through by suggesting it would generate energy from wind turbines.

What's wrong with this picture?

Can't the Globe see the forest for the trees or was the wind kicking up such a dust cloud down at Marine Dr. and Main that the reporter missed the comments of the wind experts who apparently got more energy out of laughter from the public than Walmart would ever generate from those greenwashed windmills?

Good thing we have 'scoops' like Rob and KWD paying attention and passing the info on through Tyee.

This certainly shows the value of Tyee and committed commentators and ought to be a red-faced embarrasment to Canada's National Newspaper.

Hi there-sorry for the delay. Yes it was sarcasm though that does not come across well in streams or e-mail for that matter.

The reality is that Councils rarely if at all say no to development-growth is good whatever it is, whatever the (hidden or true) cost.

I believe "peak oil" will soon change the landscape and Walmart will likely disappear when "cheap" goods cost too much.

of course the vancouver council have shown themselves to be the leftist fools that they really are with this decision. talk about being out-of-touch. southeast marine drive is not campbell river or merritt or smithers. it's part of a big city that is growing rapidly and the 'neighbourhood feel' of that area has been gone since about 1982. this was nothing more than an ideological statement made by some wacko self-righteous freaks in need of a forum to spew their nonsense. good thing they'll be gone in november and the decision will be overturned.

Sirjohn,

Does it not worry you that that area's merchants will probably shut down turning the area into nothing more than boaded up shops? Then the crime moves in, next thing you know, we've turned into detroit.
The thing is, Wal-mart is a threat to Canada, it shuts down Canadian owned businesses that drive the economy. Eventually there will be a huge percentage of people working minimum wage for Wal-mart with all the money going to the US. Then we'll stand back and see how the economy looks.

sirjohn, you care to actually type some substance behind your self-righteous rant? All i ever hear from the pro-walmart crowd is that they want more shopping options or that this will send the wrong message to business. What a crock of s**t. the whole windmill idea was good for a few seconds of amusement - i have a feeling that walmart would have had to plug the windmill into an outlet just to give the appearance that it's actually working. Anyway, my feel is that council sent a perfectly clear message, too bad sirjohn and his logically challenged cohorts don't seem to get it.

"Anyway, my feel is that council sent a perfectly clear message."

Here's a bit from news today,

" Phil Hochstein of the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association calls the decision arrogant and ideological.
He says COPE councillors voted against the interests of businesses, consumers and workers.
Hochstein says it also sends a signal that Vancouver is closed to investment"

Yes we are closed to investment from souless big box stores that threaten our local economy and that economy's independence. Sometimes being "idealistic" makes sense. Besides they're just being idealistic in the sense that, "It'd be ideal to make money off of this and screw the consequences!"

I think a good message was sent.

"Besides they're just being idealistic in the sense that, "It'd be ideal to make money off of this and screw the consequences!"

By that I meant the pro big box weasels

It's funny ain't it jamez that the independent contractor and business association would say such drivel. by turning away the walmarts of the world, i believe that vancovuer is more open to business opportunities than against them. But you want a real laugh, go to canada.com - vancouver section - and read the comments. actually, thinking about it, it's not funny, it's quite frightening.

jamez; trudeau the fart tried the kind of protectionism you're talking about. guess what? it didn't work. get with the program guys. i understand completely the problems with opening big box in small towns, but to suddenly shut down canadian tire and walmart in a neighbourhood that hasn't really been one for a very long time makes absolutely no sense. hochstein was right. this was pure politics, and hopefully they'll pay in november.

jamez, thanks for the followup.

It's my understanding that Phil Hochstein thinks anybody who doesn't have to shop at Walmart is earning too much money, especially if they are employed in the construction industry.

The real loss for his group is for the contractors who won't be able to nickel and dime their workers while they reap large profits.

My only disappointment is that Phil wasn't part of the Walmart presentation to city Hall.

He, alone, could blow enough gas to have those three doomed windmills acting as ventilation for the entire city.

What a crock when a developer will try to pull a scumbag trick like dancing out with props that are absolutely useless.

However, I do wonder how city hall planners and other staff could have overlooked it. More likely they did raise it and got blank stares back from the developer. Desperate people do desperate things.

I certainly hope that little stunt isn't missed by politicians in Campbell River.

sirjohna, perhaps you would care to justify that windmill farce to the rest of us or is it simply development (and cheap underwear), at any cost that you prefer?

It was touched on before, saying that wal-mart would be good for consumers, workers, etc.

Will it be good for citizens???????

Do not forget that we are all citizens!!!!!

"trudeau the fart tried the kind of protectionism you're talking about. guess what? it didn't work"

It seems protectionism is the way of the day if you look to the U.S. It's time Canada does the same.
As for the neighbourhood. If I recall, and maybe someone could back this up or shoot it down; wasn't that area riding a succesful small business enhancement project?
I thought that was the deal, and because of that, people didn't want the wally-world there to screw it up.

mbraun

"It's funny ain't it jamez that the independent contractor and business association would say such drivel."

Yeah, as if the construction of one Wal-mart would have turned Vancouver into some bastion of investment.

"Phil Hochstein of the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association calls the decision arrogant and ideological.
He says COPE councillors voted against the interests of businesses, consumers and workers.
Hochstein says it also sends a signal that Vancouver is closed to investment"

Phil Hochstein is an ass. When I look around this city it's quite obvious we are not closed to investment.

If Vancouver City Council has upset Philistine Hochstein, then they must have made the correct decision.

The Campbell River City Council members need to be aware that November civic elections will soon be upon them. If they make enough people angry in C.R., then, as we say, they will be toast, eh.

We need to organize the workers at the Wal-Marts we got and ensure we do not get any more.

is that all you've got sirjohna? you really are one stupid dork..we put forward ideas and opinions and, in my case, call you out for the asshole you are and all you can come back with is the adult version of a 6 year old saying .. am not- you are.
You do know that the real john a macdonald married his first cousin so I want to know.. are you an inbred descendant or do you take after Gary sir john Carlsen the sleasebag rat snitch we are reading about in the local news? Or is it a lot of both?

The problem all round is with urban planning. Kamloops and other places have a business zone, and then they put Walmart on the other side of town.

Either way, people are going to drive some place, so do they drive to 10 spots in one business area, or go To WM and walk out with a shopping mart. If communities would build more integrated residential and light commerce communities, they wouldn't have the problems they do.

-Dan

"If communities would build more integrated residential and light commerce communities, they wouldn't have the problems they do."

Port Moody is an excellent example of that... "Newport Village" is a european style development with shops on all the lower floors. As well, the builders wouldn't allow any franchises in there, so it's all independent as well. The place is thriving and has the best shops around.

Dangrice.com, you make a very good point about urban planning, but there is another more problematic issue here.

I find that most municipalities have fairly good planning staff and I certainly include Kamloops in that group.

The problems arise not out of bad planning but, because politicians, like any other set of people, are prone to try to keep their jobs and tend to prefer "positive" development stats rather than worrying about the impact of a decision five or 10 years down the road.

An Official Community Plan is supposed to be the community's roadmap into the future, a document prepared through direct consultation with the public.

It's seen as THE game plan for the next half decade and is supposed to at least provide a sense of security to residents and investors that their nice little white picket-fenced home isn't going to suddenly be neighbours to a scrap iron collector or a high volume drive in restaurant.

Back to the positive stats: If a major industry or retailer suddenly appears at city hall and states we want to locate in your community and we are willing to spend $20 million and hire 400 people and, gee, look at all the taxes we are going to pay into your coffers, what's a politician to do?

Silly question. One the one hand he or she is aware the OCP simply doesn't allow such development in the prefered area, but, hey, note the city lawyers and senior staff, nothing, especially the OCP and most other municipal rules are written in stone.

So the politician, being what he or she is, remembers the old saw drilled into them perhaps during their first run at office: "politics is the art of compromise."

Suddenly we have a politician who is willing to make a deal. From the developer's perspective, that understanding is like the checkered flag. The race is all but over. All that's missing is to find out just how hungry the politician is and to arrange a means of painting the pending deal as something other than a street corner date agreement.

Public hearings get greater play in Lower Mainland media and thus politicians are often forced to explain their reason for voting yea or nay.

But get away from the big city and even though public hearings can be long drawn-out battles between proponents and opponents, media coverage is often shallow.

After sitting through two, three, four hours or more of hearings, the politicians aren't pressed to offer any clear or defined opinions gleamned from the hearing, but can simply say yes or no.

In fact, it is standard practice in controvesial hearings for politicans to be legally advised not to say anything more than yes or no so that the final decision can not be challenged because a politician has clearly shown he or she had their mind made up long before the public got a say.

I've seen quotes from politicans after the votes in which they say really dumb things like " I didn't hear anything tonight that would make me change my mind."

The statements are simply reported allowing the politician to justify the decision as being the right one. The reporter gets to assure the public all the necessary steps were taken and that fairness and democracy continue to be teh guiding lights.

No mention at all that the politician, by law, is duty bound to go into a public hearing with an open mind on the issue up for debate.

Politicians in smaller communities also tend to get involved in the planning processes leading up the the hearings. They essentially buy into the proposals and then argue 'well we have already put all this work into it so why not.'

The media stories lack any analytical background other than the opinions of politicians and the developer as to the long term benefits, and are full of 'he saids, she saids' that say nothing.

Even when the eventual speaking list might have two or three supporters while hundreds try to speak in opposition, a smattering of quotes leaves the reader with the impression
politicians had to wrestler with the community's deeply torn opinion.

Local citizens don't really have many ways of fighting this problem. The provincial government seldom ever intervenes unless there is a blatant case of BC law being abused.

The courts are shyer than awkward young lovers about getting involved.

Citizens really have only two opportunities. The first is during municipal elections where a well-prepared group of citizens might be able to force politicians to commit to standards although political election promises have no more substance than the air you breath.

The other option is to pack OCP planning sessions and publicly force politicians to include stronger wording to protect the integrety of the plans for their intended life.

Let's face it, if a developer is proposing something that has the undivided support of the clear majority, no one is going to stand in the way of trying to fit it in.

The problem arises when the proposal is seen as a great tax generator, job creator or whatever, but likely to create chaos, break up communities or hurt existing businesses etc.

A pro-development council, and there are few that aren't anywhere in Canada, then gets to play dictator, playing through the public hearing and planning processes, but then simply voting for what they already want.

these fools are even too freaky for larry campbell. looks like the npa will be sitting pretty next election, but of course you can never count out the massive amount of support the unions will give the cope idiots.

We all know Wal-Mart is trouble on many fronts for the community and the planet in general.
Lets look at the community facts first.

1) It crushes small business, shoe stores, book sellers, stereo and electronic shops, furniture shores, clothing stores, pet stores , convenience stores, there are many victims to Wal-Mart's predatory prices. They sell many thing at a loss to crush local stores or the competition.
EVEN LARGE STORES LIKE A & B SOUND AND TOYS R US HAVE GONE INTO BANKRUPTCY PROTECTION DUE TO THE WAL MART EFFECT. Good luck Campbell River.

2) Wal Mart sets the standard , they drive down wages, labor standards, environmental standards, and increase sweat shop usage around the globe. The other stores are forced to act like Wal Mart to survive.

3) They kill downtowns, see Kitchener and Brantford Ont examples.

4) A few McJobs and cheap crap is not going to compensate for the damage.

Lets tell Mayor Nash what we think, come on her email is

If I take an aspirin will sirjohna go away

in your dreams stuey.

For all those who think of johna as an inbred moron or a pimple on a hemorrhoid, you will also notice that he is NEVER able to refute your POV with any credible facts..all he can do is demonstrate his level of stupidity

to Stuart and others:

"Lets tell Mayor Nash what we think, come on her email is

"

I'm sure he gets that a lot from people who don't know him, but Mayor Nash is MR. Nash, despite Lynn being his first name.

Campbell River being the small town it is, it's sometimes hard to get up-to-the-minute news here. Does anybody know what happened at last night's public forum? [This was the 3d of 3 planned, but it had more people wanting to speak than the time would have accommodated] Did it go later than planned? Has there been another evening scheduled for presentations? Any news? Any gossip?

I have said it before , sirjohna is only around to stifle debate, basically to discredit
This forum in general. Any kind of real free debate scares the crap out of sirjohna , he is more
At home with the status quo like the province and their crime of the day etc. Anyway I usually only respond to those who have something to say, every once in a while sirjohna makes a comment worth responding to. Thanks for the heads up mackeff,

"I didn't hear anything tonight that would make me change my mind."

I know guys who should have that printed on their business cards.

At City Hall a short time ago to pay property taxes, I asked the receptionist about last night's public meeting. It ran over-time to accommodate whoever wanted to speak, and no further meetings will happen. The next step is the council decision on the 4th of July . . . even though that's the regular night for council to meet, it's had the obvious comments about the *American* WalMart and the *American* holiday made about it.

If I lived in Campbell River I would be tempted to ensure any city politicians who publicly participate in your local Canada Day festivities are reminded again and again of the strong opposition to Walmart in your city.

Allow Walmart and say good bye to many of the small merchants who make your city what it is.

Also, beware of Trojan windmills, painted green.

hey stueyboy; i'm a very busy person, very involved with family and community. that means i get to deal with lots of real people. why would i waste any time and energy seriously debating a bunch of whacked-out lefties who are driven solely on ideology and have no intention of listening to reason anyway?

Well, here in Salmon Arm, we're getting a Wal-Mart on the Native reserve land and nobody really gets much of a chance to say anything about it. And they pretty well circumvent the taxes that should be going to the city gov't. And the natives, I guess, will reap some benifits......monetarily anyway.
This is apparently a fairly common scenerio in Canada. Walmart is very devious and insidious.

that's hilarious. the lefties hate the thought of the dreaded american corporate pigs setting up in their town but they dare not speak out against the natives.

"i'm a very busy person, very involved with family and community. that means i get to deal with lots of real people. why would i waste any time and energy seriously debating a bunch of whacked-out lefties who are driven solely on ideology and have no intention of listening to reason anyway?" LOL,,,,
LOL
Stop proving my point sirjohna, and why are you so upset when your such a good member of the community.I just hope the "real people" never disagree with you. Anyway happy Canada Day, go enjoy your family.

sirjohna, you have the most warped and twisted sense of political reality I have ever come across for someone who claims to have a hold on anything resembling logic.

Perhaps you can explain to us how non-native people in the Salmon Arm area are expected to oppose development on an Indian reserve.

Please, please, give us your recipe for success on this issue.

Are you suggesting non-natives send some drunken cowboy onto the reserve to careen about wildly in a pick up truck.

Perhaps they might just encourage another white(and drunk), red-neck jerk to crash a five-ton truck through a road block on Indian lands, a roadblock set up after the same fool refused to acknowledge that ancient articfacts ought to be protected before he develop tourist facilities on Adams Lake.

Or are you advocating having the police simply arrest first nations leaders for not asking local non-natives if the Indians can do this or that. Of course the Indians would show up to ask with their hats in hand under your scenario.

Let me break the news to you gently. The reserves around Salmon Arm are part of a reserve system, as bad as they are, that was first set up by then-governor James Douglas back more than 150 years ago.

While Indians reserves aren't seen as "private" property in the strict capitalist sense that you no doubt think god created on the first day, over time the courts and even government have agreed non-natives like you and I, thankfully don't have a say on them.

While I am no fan of the "american corporate pigs" who operate Walmart and don't hesitate to say I am deeply disappointed by the band's decision to allow Walmart to set up, I realize that choice is theirs rather than mine, or yours.

Frankly, if we didn't have Canadians like yourself, who continuously vote in and support governments that are at their very heart anti-native, many of these bands might not be in the desperate position of having to live with the devil, because the gods are too busy trying to screw them.

The two examples of how non-whites have tried to intervene in native rights occured in the Interior of BC in the early '90s (that's 1990s in case you were looking for more dated stupidity.)

Both events occurred on bands that are relarively close., Admas Lake, near Chase and Douglas Lake near Merritt. The first are directly linked to those in the Salmon Arm area and both experienced red-neck reactions to natives exercising their own rights.

And you know what else? Both of those unfortunate events involved a groups called BC Fire, in my view a racist (and red-neck) group of people seemingly dedicated to dragging BC back into the racist atmosphere of earlier eras when being an Indian was neither economically or politically beneficial.

The man who fronted that group now works directly for premier Gordon Campbell as his chief of staff.

His name is Martyn Brown. You likely helped Brown keep his job on May 1.

In my book that makes you part of the problem BC first nations have to get beyond. So rather than dumping on natives for trying to survive, I'll save my anger for the likes of you who.

yeah, the reality is companies like walmart will always be barbarians at the gates. and they will always find palces to go, if vancouver/cambell river bans them, they set one up 10m inside of the next municipality, and you get even worst traffic congestion, pollution, and still see shifting resources without the community recouping any of the taxational benefits the municiplaity gets back.

I'm almost upset walmart in vancouver got rejected, as i think one of the solutions is to set new rules by which the big boxes have to play. whether the turbines would work or not, it was a big step in getting walmarty to think differently. i've seen many, and they are almost always a cookie cutter warehouse design. (+ to let cosco but not walmart shows inconsistant policies)

rather than outlawing walmarts, how can we make them fit into a viable community? while walmart is often demonized, for the main part there success is due to smart business practices. while they are anti-union, its standardization and quanity buying that have led to their success, not bad labour practices, or intentions to wreck communities. However, due to their uber successful dell like model they kill companies that play catchup. They don't use child labour, the products you buy in a mom and pop store will be made in the same chinese factory as a walmart, the difference is that by buying a million identical t-shirts, negotiating tight deals with suppliers, they keep their costs down and have leverage others wouldn't. by having good business sense they become bad for everyone else.

i can't stand going in them myself, the smell and sounds of families who don't believe in the two child rule of sustainable populations, and the fear that i will be wearing the same shirt (whose buttons don't quite line up) as half the people on the continent disuade me. Though, i'll admit I have stopped in to buy packages of cheap socks and a $10 oil paint set.

allan; as usual you don't understand. i was talking about the lefties, like you and your moronic ilk, not the good pragmatic citizens of salmon arm. you really must be one of the dumbest posters on this thread. at least stuey-boy and coyote have sometimes something reasonable to add. how old are you anyway allan?
and by the way, james douglas only signed treaties covering vancouver island. all other reserves were set up by the feds. also i'm not anti-native idiot, and how could you possibly deduce such a thing from my post?

thanks stuart, and to you. despite the fact that we've had inept government since about 1968 it's still the greatest country in the world.

alan
you might want to check out the thread connected to "Canada's Stupid Party" and "Latest marijuana ideas from Holland" in the 'views' index. sirjohna has been spreading his no brain poison there as well and clearly demonstrates, along with clubofrome and colin, why right wingers have zero credibility. He is fond of calling left wingers stupid but never refutes our positions with any logic and in doing so reveals his shallow intellect.

it's true that allan needs all the help he can get sleepswithhimself, but i doubt he's desperate enough to listen to advice from a clown like you. you might want to try getting an education before you continue to embarrass yourself here.

Of course sirjohna would be too consumed by his own rage to notice that both allan and I have made articulate and well informed observations yet he states that we should 'get an education' and he makes a very revealing quip when he asks allan how old he is. Now I've already characterized johna in other threads as an inbred, moronic jerkoff but he has provided further insight into his psyche with those statements....so I will take another stab at expanding my analysis. He is an extremely frustrated, late middle aged white man who has always been physically flabby, has virtually no close friends except for other angry whackjobs and has no advanced education with the exception of perhaps some technical training. His bitterness and anger combined with his poor health will ensure an early demise but as he appears to have no other outlet for his rage, other than perhaps his family, we can expect him to continue to follow around a bunch of virtual lefties acting like the immature loser he is. Only a very insecure person would try and belittle a person's POV by asking how old they are. I could go on and on..but who really gives a damn about a shallow right wing piece of crap that has nothing better to do than stink up this site with his verbal diarrhea.

...and with those deductions you continue to show that you need an education. if you can't afford it because you're too lazy to get a job i'm sure the gov't will help out. after all, that's what they're there for, isn't it? let me guess: you are under 25, aren't you?

come on sleeps & sir, drop the ad hominems and get a room.

have ad hominems been legalized too?

sirjohna, thank you for showing how pathetic you are.

For the record: I never stated anything about anyone signing treaties, however I did speak of James Douglas' development of reserves for interior first nations in the late 1850s.

Perhaps you want to do some research on the various cut-off claims in the Interior.

While you're at it, look up Douglas's responsibilities as governor. Actually, I'm glad you are not trying to homeschool your kids.

I don't know if you hate Indians or not. You certainly don't have much respect for anything left of somewhere very distant to the right.

And your natural assumption that we "lefties" might feel some betrayal or that the Indians might normally side with leftist ideals suggests pretty clearly you don't normally like Indians either and fully suspect them to be lefties as well.

How friggin shallow can ya get? Stick with book banning.

allan; the indians are far too aware these days to 'side with leftist ideals'. great blather anyway. how old did you say you were?

since sirjohna is the product of generations of inbreeding we can only infer from his need to know how old Allan and I are that he is seeking to engage in pedophilia as well. If he does have children someone should notify the authorities..all the indicators are there in his postings for them to make a preliminary assessment... meeting him would erase all doubt

sleeps; since you've decided to cross the line i'll wait a day to see if the editor deals with you. if not we'll meet personally. for now, don't go anywhere.

sirjohna, I am amazed that you can continue acting like an ass here (I'd love to meet you personally, by-the-way), aftr repeatedly being shown for what you are.

You are an angry, bitter man who obviously feels some fright that ideas discussed on the Tyee will soon start showing up in more main stream media.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it, but to open your twin-cheeked noisemaker and again make a jerk, no, act like the jerk you are.

I trust your children don't see your rage as you bang your fingers down on the keyboard hoping something intelligent will just sort of type itself.

Oh, hey, sirjohna, crack those BC history books yet?

hey sirjerkalot...I guess you do take after that rat snitch..gary sir john carlsen that initially tried to scam Tony Robbins then turned on his accomplice...once again you are showing everyone what a loser you are..much like the whackjob 'clubofrome', who, when I thoroughly trashed his feeble POV, threatened me with physical violence..you do realise that this means in addition to being an inbred moron it also indicates that you have repressed homosexual tendencies

sleepswithhimself; have you got something against homosexuals? the only thing you've ever trashed is your intellect. at least allan has an excuse, as he's a 21 year old pothead. by the way allan, there is absolutely no anger here, in fact the only emotion i get from this website is pure glee at making you lefties shit your pants with frustration. it must be horrible to see your lame lefty theories so easily dismembered. that's why you idiots will always be in the vocal yet oh so obnoxious minority.

another example of sirjerkoff being able to dish it out but he runs like a little pansy to the editor when his cover is blown
this may come as a shock to you sirjerkallday but I have yet to see you dismember anything but your own credibility
I have nothing against anybody who makes an effort to be human but those who wallow in their mental derangements like you deserve all the grief that comes their way..if you think you are frustrating lefties then you should take that as a sign what little mind you have left is failing you badly...no one on this site feels anything but pity for a loser, piece of crap like you

sleepswithhishands; i have no grief. my life is wonderful. i'm very happy, have great family and friends, and am very well respected in my community. but you didn't answer my question. two posts ago you seemed to make a very nasty slur while feebly trying to insult me. do you have something against homosexuals?

already asked and answered in my last post...this is just more evidence of your weak mind and it also appears that you are quite defensive around the subject of homosexuality.. I suppose you must have that freak Myencourt drilling you while you fumble with your keyboard..you two deserve each other.
anybody like you who feels that they have to claim they are 'well respected' in their 'community' must belong to some kind of pedophile ring..it's a wonder you haven't been rounded up and prosecuted already..or maybe you have..your're really Robbin Sharpe aren't you

you're a sick puppy sleeps. you need some big-time help. do you know that gay-bashing is against the law in this country?

hey sirjerkoff..I'll give you a $1000. if you can quote anything I said that would constitute gay bashing...now incest and pedophilia are against the law and I have pointed out some indicators in your own posts that suggest you are possibly guilty of these serious crimes.
keep it up sirjerkoff...you continue to show off your ignorance and your not so hidden proclivities

"this website is pure glee at making you lefties shit your pants with frustration'

This is exactly what Sirjohn is about. He is an admitted troll and feeds on the attention he generates from his inflammatory posts. It's the only tactic he has at his disposal, since he can't seem to formulate a logical argument to support his position. He's not worth the attention he craves.

"do you know that gay-bashing is against the law in this country?"

Uh, as it should be.

sleepswithhismother, verso, jamez; thanks for making this all worthwhile.

Hey jerkboy...did the editor tell you to bugger off ? I would like to know what you had in mind when you said that I had crossed a line and that you would meet up me. Can't wait for that...Oh and what happened to your braindead accusation of gay bashing.. I offered you a $1000. for you to quote anything I said that would constitute gay bashing...couldn't find anything right...that's because I didn't do it..but I understand..your're likely just an imbecilic, pant pissing pedo who doesn't know any better.
Does your boyfriend know that you are an inbred, moronic loser..of course he does...that was probably the initial attraction. Combine all those slimy traits with being a buggered again christian and I'm sure you are irresistable to him

O-o-o-p-s, sorry. Wrong place, obviously.

When I found the original story [way up at the top of this page] published by the Tyee, on Walmart in Campbell River , I thought there might be some information

and/or

intelligent discussion on Walmart's bid to locate here.

Dang. Back to Google.

no kidding mackeff - I thought this was about Wal-mart also. Speaking of walmart - any word on CR Council decision tonight?

Haven't found anything on it. Our local radio stations aren't noted for up-to-date news, and the papers come out on Wednesdays/Fridays, so I was hoping to get something online. Guess I'll have to remain curious until I talk to someone who went to the meeting tonight.

sorry for all the crude input..this site has been infected by the drooling, pederast-like
stylings of sirjohna and I couldn't sit idly by and not deal with this moron
he cracked wide open like the pathetic nutjob he is last night on this thread...since I've got better things to do with my time I'll leave the crumbs of his fragile sanity for you to deal with

please don't go sleeps. your posts are pre class, and it's so nice having such a pathetic fool representing the left.

C.R. council voted 7/0 against approving the zoning amendment that would allow Wal-Mart to build their big-box store in the river estuary!

Council, on the whole, made it reasonably clear that Wal-Mart was welcome to Campbell River but that the estuary site was inappropriate and unpopular with the vast majority who attended the public hearing and submitted letters or other communications.

It appears the people of Campbell River have brains.

Have people finally realized what they get when a Walmart opens near them?

Reading this early today is like watching the sun come up twice. It just makes my day double-plus good.

A couple of councillors complained that they felt they had been "intimidated" by people at the hearings and outside the hearings. It is interesting to consider that for some politicians it seems to take "intimidation" to get their attention.

Hey, buddy! Yeah we're talkin' to you!!!

The overwhelming victory was tempered by the same couple of councillors obviously voting against the rezoning amendment ("overwhelemed" by the wave of protest) when really they would much rather have ratified Wal-Mart & the further degradation of the river estuary.

There is a municipal election in River City in the Fall. It is now known and obvious who the players on the municipal government are - and what they stand for, or don't. The councillors didn't seem to realize that this is the kind of clarifying issue that decides who gets re-elected. Or that that's essentially what democracy is about.

Anyways - Round One for Sanity in River City!

CR council rocks. We won folks , the overwhelming populace put pressure and the Mayor And council responded to the people. Make sure you thank them

and
Pat yourself on the back. I admire those who actually consider the people they serve

do you live in campbell river stuey-boy?

Altho its a wet grey day in Campbell River the sun shines! No Wal Mart on the River! Congrats to all who helped this happen. Suddenly Wal Mart decides that "maybe" there are other suitable sites afterall. In any case I will never step inside a Wal Mart anywhere and hopefully others feel the same way.
sirjohna - what does living in Campbell River have to do with anything?

this is only the business of the good citizens of campbell river. if they don't want a walmart then so be it, but i don't think it's right for others to stick their nose in the business of cr's citizens b/c the walmart issue is the flavour of the month for the lefties. these self-appointed saviours always seem to be looking for a cause-celebre.

sirjohna, you seem so upset. And you obviously missed the reason Walmart didn't get approval.

But I am glad you blame us "lefties" because that means you are pissed right off and that makes me smile.

Citizens of CR had their say and their council listened and I would think neither citizens nor councilors would object to the outside world trying "to stick their nose in..." and watch how they practice democracy in Campbell River.

Anything wrong with that?

you're sad allan. i hope you got special treatment in school.

Sorry folks. I really should apologize. I'm starting to see that the the right wing is just a selfish group of capatalists. I will have you know I voted Liberal two elections ago, but since they broke all their promises, I promise to never vote for them again. Doubling gambling, drunk-driving premier, contempt for contracts, these are the things that changed my mind. I voted NDP (Go Trevena)in May. Even right-wingers can change.

you are such a jerkoff...johnafool
since you struggle with your sanity so much you are also probably hardup for a dollar...I'll give you $5000 if you come out of the closet for us...tell us what it's like to have Moron Lyencourt drill you senseless

sleepswithhissister; i see you're getting pretty desperate now since even the whacked-out lefties like stuey-boy don't support your crude gay-bashing. time to get a life boy.

surejerksoffalot, who has trouble admitting he is Moron Lyencourt's bumboy, is struggling with the fact that no one will hire an inbred pedo like him which explains why he spends all his time on a left wing site trying to pick up other right wing pervs...I've offered him cash ($5000) to come out of his closet but his gutless nature won't allow him to pick up the first honest earnings he will likely ever make.

sleepswithhisdog; i thought you said you were leaving clownboy. glad you stuck around. as i said before, with moronic sickos like you representing the left my task is easy. see you later you gay-bashing freak.

Time to clear the air...I obviously don't give a damn what sirjerkoff thinks but I don't want to offend those that feel my crude posts aimed at sirjerkboy are homophobic. They were not. I ask you to reread the posts and keep in mind the following: I believe that many openly gay people are vastly superior people compared to the average joe. I subscribe to the "two spirit" belief of many First nations people who see GLBT's as highly evolved.
On the other hand you have many gays, whether in or out, who, for a variety of reasons, are deeply disturbed or otherwise conflicted. Surejerksoffalot is one of these sad bastards. While most of the inner turmoil that these people suffer is the result of hypocritical intolerance and persecution by straight society, it is hard to feel compassion towards creeps like jerkboy and others who champion right wing philosophies. No doubt a form of Stockholm Syndrome is partly responsible for these sorry assholes supporting ideologies that are inherently detrimental to people of their sexual persuasion...obviously there is major denial at play here...but when they behave antisocially I believe they need harsh reality checks.
I'll let that sink in before I offer detailed insights into my assertions that sirjerkoff is an inbred, homosexual pedophile.
Some constructive feedback would be nice (not from you sirjerkoff) or maybe you don't appreciate a new comer to this site taking shots at your pet whackjob.

Anyone listening to Bill good today? This Wal-mart PR guy is worse than goebles. (SP?)

Wall mart in America perfectly epitomizes the growing gap between rich and poor.
Has anyone noticed that when you look on a map of where Wall mart has stores in the US that it eerily corresponds to the states that went Bush in 2004?
Wall mart products are made with child labour. Why are these children not going to school instead?

but how about Merritt...Wal-Mart is coming soon! I live in Hope and I've been ripped off so many times by local business I'd love to see a Wal-Mart here just to see local business squirm.