This story puts another perspective to Bill C-38. We have legislation now that puts Bountiful on thin ice. An amendment would mute the law and make it a joke. There is a reason for marriage as we have it in legislation. Marriage applies to one man and one women, what part of that is difficult to understand? "A Few Good Men" could apply to legislators and not polygamy.

For the record, this story, which was otherwise pretty good, implies that the article in The Province, headlined "It's second-nature to us..." described the "polygamy summit." The article Ms. Euringer refers to was a soft-news feature on the Mormon Hills School. My Province story on the "summit" appeared the day before, and contained significantly more criticism of the polygamists than did the school feature.
Ethan Baron

I'm probably going to put my other foot into it here, but I have essentially the same attitude here as I do with same sex relationships. Not the most important issue in the world to be preoccupied with, unless one is directly involved, I appreciate, but in the end coming to the same result; what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business.

So long as children are not being used and abused, and the adult women, by and large involved, don't indicate that they are being so as well, folks should be pretty much left to live whatever lives they want. Trying to control human behaviour in these kinds of life style and morality choices, again assuming everyone is an adult, is like trying to hold back a mighty river with one's bare hands.

To ensure, however, that young women and young men of whatever faith or ideas community are not being trained or pressured into any particular lifestyle system, education needs to be removed from all religious control, reinforcing the separation of Church and State, and a scientific/ evidence based view of history, including the evolution of gender relations, be made available as fundamental knowledge to all young people of whatever "faith based" system their parents be.

Other than that, again so long as the young are not used, abused, and exploited without adequate knowledge of all the choices and issues, society has to expect that some folks regardless, will make different choices on these kinds of lifestyle and morality issues. And so long as there is no serious hurt to society as a whole-, and there is knowing consent, what the hell is a larger society to do?

I don't have to approve of homosexual conduct or polygamy to understand that other adults will make different choices-, and so long as they stay out of my bedroom, I'll stay out of theirs. (Unless I invite 'em in, of course, or they invite me, and I take 'em up on it. :-)

Legally anyway, whatever the women or this fellow might otherwise think, he only has one legal wife in any case. The others are just concubines of a sort, in fact. Which is the way it should be left, whatever the religious nutcase view of things

The difference between what is happening in Bountiful and same-sex marriages, rhiebert, is that one is about adults marrying other adults out of love while the other is about adults exploiting children. Too bad you can't figure that out.

Coyote: Go lay in the corner! - the Human's are talking.

I agree with Chris H. I think everyone knows it's not difficult to brainwash a child to grow up to be an adult abuser. That's not much of a life, I'd say.

The humans? The humans?

ROFLMAO. You've undergone a species change, have you?

At least that was short, although there was no point.

Are we back to this issue of penises again? You have such a limited repertoire.

Can anyone tell me where I can find the proof that the people of Bountiful are brainwashing and abusing there children?

Obviously there is none.

I think its implied

Take Winston downtown to the Roxy. Have him mix with all the singles he can find. If he leaves the bar that night with 3 new wives I'll eat my lawnmower.

inadmissible Frank, (implied I mean) - The law needs to read - no conjugal relationships with multiple opposite sex partners who have multiple children. (somehow). Too bad we don't have a parliament that works -Eh!

But isn't the big problem everyone has with polygamy the fact that "we all know these people abuse their children?" Please tell me, where is the proof. I would like to see proof before I will believe that these people are the brainwashed ogres the media is making them out to be.

The people of Creston drink the same water, receive the same hours of sunshine yet there doesn't seem to be any sign of polygamy there. The Bountiful kids should attend school with the wider community. They should be exposed to what Canada has to offer. They should not be allowed to marry men twice their age at 14.

If they grow up in the wider community and still want to marry Blackmore, fine.

punisher, if parliament worked what the hell would I come here to argue with you about???

Depends on the definition of abuse Stinger. Is raising children to be polygamists abusive? What about inbreeding, would that constitute abuse? - I'd answer yes! on both counts.

There is no doubt that that members have, in the past, married girls younger than 16 (as Winston publicly admitted himself to having done, though he now vows to draw the line at age 18).

-----------------------------------------------
Younger than 16! Come on! thats some evidence of abuse.
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The Psychology of Religion
The first and most important thing to realize about religions is that they consist wholly of people believing things only because other people tell them to believe them (with spoken or written words), plus a tiny handful of people who do not believe but tell others what to believe (though even among religious leaders, almost all are themselves believers to some degree). The only alternative to obeying religious edicts is heresy, a term that derives directly from the Greek word for "choice". Thus freethinkers are by definition heretics, and only heretics can think freely.

``Religion'' and ``cult'' are two names for the same thing. Typically, the former term is used when referring to centuries-old institutions of sociocognitive warfare, and the latter when referring to new ones or ones which are of intermediate age and include significant doctrine that is inconsistent with, or not ancestral to, the doctrine of an old institution. Both Scientology and Catholicism are both religions and cults. When subordination to a new institution of sociocognitive warfare ceases to be stigmatized by those who are subordinated to older institutions, the new institution ceases to be considered a cult and comes to be considered a religion. Once an institution is considered a religion, it will continue to be considered as such, even if subordination to it is again stigmatized. This has occured with Judaism, the subordinates of which have been stigmatized by a variety of groups for a variety of reasons.

The engine by which mystical ideation becomes cultural doctrine includes three primary components: insanity, evil, and feebleness of mind. The insanity is embodied principally by schizophrenics, though also by individuals with certain other types of brain disease. The evil is embodied by the power lusting second hander. The feebleness of mind is embodied by ordinary people, of ordinary mental fortitude and ordinary susceptibility to memetic infection. By mental fortitude, I mean capacity to maintain rational consistency, particularly when presented with a concerted effort to befuddle.

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/ancient.html#metatop
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We are all "BRAINWASHED" to a certen extent.
How many times have you caught your self singing "By Menen". Tv does it to us all it rots our brains.
-----------------------------------------------

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/plygmedia%2004%20237vsun.htm

Welcome to

The Center for Public Education
and Information on Polygamy

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/frontdoor.htm

Who's arguing Frank? I don't know of any cases of polygany in any average community and I doubt if it has anything to do with the water.

They claim a religious right, I'm sure the pope would disagree.

Frank, show me proof of 14 year olds getting married to men twice their age. How do you know 14 year olds are even getting married period.
Punisher, where did you find the story about inbreeding?
Also, when my children are old enough to go to school there is no way I would ever send them to public school. I read a recent news story on the internet that said at least one in ten children in the public school system are likely to be abused by school personnel. Another story had a recent survey of ninth graders and said a full one third of them had experienced sex or planned to within the next three months. This sounds a heck of a lot worse than anything from Bountiful.

Yep Stinger, the world's a "shitty" place and poygamists are not making it better. (in my view).

Stinger, either Blackmore or another guy admitted to marrying a girl 2 days shy of her 15th birthday as I recall. It was on the news that day.

Blackmore himself also admitted he was only going to marry girls at least 18 from now on. He admitted he had married younger.

You're equating sex between two high school students with polygamy involving young girls?

Religous freedom my ass. The police should go in and lay statutory rape charges before every pervert in Canada declares it to be a religion.

this issue cuts across party lines. if the children are being abused the community should be investigated, if the members are breaking laws they should be made to abide by them.
stinger; i must question your internet story about 1 in 10 students being abused by staff. sounds outrageous to me.

I think the presentation was professional PR and I know Winston was in his environment. For those who know the details of Bountiful and of the FLDS over the past few decades, the new and revised line of waiting til girls are 18 is one of, a wait and see. The addition of education beyond the 10th grade is another area where the jury is still out.

The history of the FLDS poses several questions, which the conference did not address. While journalist still want to know how many wives and children Winston has, such dialog is not likely to be answered soon. The belief while based on the FLDS teachings, got poor marks last week when the Southern Poverty Law Center declared the FLDS a hate group based on its racist teachings. A question might be how has the doctrine changed under Winston since he was ousted by Warren and when did he revise the FLDS doctrine? Were his followers educated in the Jeffs doctrine and to date were they able to accept a new doctrine?

Then when children of whatever age are married in these non state or government recognized unions, when these kids are traded between Canada and the USA, how does each country accept and provide for non citizens? A USA bride, now in Canada, that is not legally a spouse, but now a citizen of Canada, how does this change of citizenship occur? If the bride is a juvenile under 18, how is the transfer arranged and does a parent accompany them as far as the spiritual ceremony. If its not a legal union, does Canada still support the mother and is she unwed or listed as married? If the American parents give consent, is it not really consent to cohabitate, since the marriage or union is technically illegal? Can the US parents be charged with Child Abandonement? Child Endangerment, etc. In the reverse, how does Canada law address Canadian juveniles brought in to the US for the same, unrecognized unions. Then does the Mann-Act of 1910 apply since it is cohabiation with a minor under the law?

I can think of about 100 questions that I am fuzzy on, but would love to of had these answered. Had I attended the Canada conference would either the Bishop or government been able or prepared to answer the legal questions over those that are emotionally or religious based? To seriously open up communication, is it posible to ask questions and get answers? Presentations that are warm and fuzzy that do not address the law, leave us still unclear on what is PR verses what is legal.

So, the presentation went well, how about we begin by asking simple questions, that get honest answers. I'm willing to meet the other side half way, are they equally committed?

MIB

The nature of isolation often breeds abuse and I know from reading these postings that some will counter my views. To promote a trade of sorts, a measure of good will, I would like to chalenge those in Bountiful who will disagree with be to prove you are as concerned about abuse as I am. I would like to find Kenyon Blackmore, he is technically a cousin to Winston. Kenyon married his biological daughter at age 12 and I'd kind of like to see him brought to justice, so here's my dare! If you are as concerned about abuse as I am, tell me where or how to locate this Canadian citizen. The good will of this gesture will go a long way. If blood is thicker than water as they say, I can rest my case for why oversight is needed. I have proof! But I think any one deep inside, knows the same truth.

MIB

sirjohna, google "child abuse in public school" I found five different sources that had those stats. Also, Winston said the girl two days shy of 15 married an 18 year old. Obviously she didn't have a baby when she was 14. As to that, google teenage pregnancy. The internet has a lot of information for those that want to find it.

If they grow up in the wider community and still want to marry Blackmore, fine." wrote Frank.

The history of girls being married off at fourteen, including to "old men", doesn't go that far back into the history of this continent or Europe either, as relatively common practice, Nationalist. I don't really have the evidence to hand, but it is probably easy enough to get-, especially online. (When the average life expectancy was something closer to 35 or 40 years, as it was for a great piece of human history, early, very young marriages were, in fact, a survival imperative for the species. It's part of the reason "the species" is so numerous today, and how we came to dominate the planet.:-)

No doubt polygamy represents an ancient and retrogressive throwback in human relations, and should not be approved by larger secular society certainly, but then the case can be made that religion itself is an indeological throwback explanation of creation, a snapshot of thinking as it was at a particuar time and stage of social development -, an ancient view of the universe and morality etc. Indeed there is much evidence even now there to be seen and heard around the election of the nerw Pope and many othe doctrines of sundry Churches.

And no matter what even any secular state or science based culture does, there are folks that are going to "believe", even in the face of voluminous "objective" evidence to the contrary, of all existing divine intervention theories.

Franks approach, along with my own earlier piece, is, while I much agree with EyeOnPolygamy, about the most rational approach to dealing with all such and similar social "problems". But all that said, there also needs to be strict enforcement of laws, especially directed at these kinds of groups, to protect the interests of women and children, and to see that they secure a full and rounded education.

Where such laws are broken and can be demonstrated, come down hard on the perpetrators.

Trying to forcibly "pry" people away from their "faiths" is more often, demonstrably counter productive, and requires a somewhat longer view I think. Of which there is also a long history-, looking only to the most recent legacy of bitterness at what was done to the Doukhabors and the manner of it.

My view anyway.

Coyote: It's embarrassing to see you lick yourself.

"Duh! Grunt! Pee pee."

The only real "punishment" is the witnessing of this fellow make a fool of himself. (Though he does have this amusing preoccupation with pee pees, presumably his own. :-) Though mayhaps he gets himself off thinking of me licking myself-, as one of his homoerotic fantasies.)

Ok, its a sunny morning. Let's see now, in Canada, near Creston, we have a small religous community that keeps to itself. Children are educated within the boundaries of the cult ('community'). The education of women stops when they have "all they need". Young men are booted out of the community. Can't have too many around with no wives or they'll make trouble and god knows we wouldn't want men like the leaders of the cult not being able to marry a few more.

For decades the whiff of child abuse has emerged and has rarely ever been investigated and never at all with any seriousness. Lets recall that at one time investigators were leery of investigating priests. The religous connection should be ignored.

Can it be compared to a 14 year old les canadiennes femme marrying a 16 year old boy 200 years ago in Quebec? Nope. No polygamy and the woman was brought up in the wider community. Her and her family had options.

According to those who have left Bountiful, something smells bad there. I believe there was a book written. Probably why the good folk of Bountiful had a media day. Well, even Saddam Hussein had media days.

The cult should be broken up. Children should be educated in the general community. They should be free to continue their education as long as they want, pick what careers they would like to follow and marry who they like. If the leaders of Bountiful wish to prevent this then then the Princess Pats Light Infantry should send a platoon into Bountiful and do an Abu Gharib on Blackmore's ass.

What about prisoners Frank?

punisher, say what?

I think to be correct those younger women were Deanna Chatwin and Lorraine Johnson, both American girls. I believe Deanna was the younger of the two. Today however they are older than 18 and chose to be where they are. This said the question of laws enforced in the future is still a viable issue.

The religious charter in Canada may defend religion, but it hardly overrides the law. In the states we have a "Church of Satan" that is protected under the law and legally incorporated as a church. If we granted full rights under that religion, human sacrafice could be defended and even justified by a willing population, not to dissimiliar to a suicide bomber who believes death in this life guarantee's rewards in the next. Under our contstitution the freedom to believe and teach, is seperated by the action of doing. The ever old example, you can't cry fire in a crowded theatre and later claim it as freedom of speech after victims are trampled. Teaching polygamy and practising are seperate issues. Call it cohabitation between adults, leaving religion out of it and few care! The inclusion of religion like any organized church adds a threat to salvation where intimidation through damnation is added. Posibly more sacred in the religious context, though members do it based on a theology. I have that theology and it says; "ye shall be damned". The prophet and the many FLDS books in detail demand polygamy or threaten salvation. Is it really free choice?

Then the same theogy suggests either 3 or 7 connected wives. Over the years the leadership has redefined the numbers with Warren Jeffs having approximately 70. When the FLDS theology does not offer a man enough wives and he feels the need to have more, is he still directed by his god or one might ask whom his god is?

I don't know this is the best venue to discuss such matters, but its posible I could read from the FLDS text and let those here decide whether this is truly about family values or not? The former 2nd councilor to the prophet was Fred Jessop, he died recent in his mid 90s. He's estimated to have had 25 or more wives and over 100 children. While in the media the FLDS attorney's defended Fred as having traditional family values, there was more to the story. As a child Fred had the mumps and was rendered sterile. Those 100 children her not his, but rather those who were reassigned to him when the fathers were found out of favor with the church and its leadership. The lawyers quickly adapted an explanation, but family values depends on who's family? Osama Bin Laden has his version of family values, but he can hardly compare it to ours or vice-versa!

MIB

Interesting indeed, EyeOnPolygamy. Ain't life complicated.

Propoganda:

Practical Aspects of Polygamy – How does Polygamy Benefit Women

http://www.polygamy.com/

some proof:

BY Daphne Bramham

BOUNTIFUL, B.C. - No one in Bountiful disputes the fact that most first-time mothers who walk into this polygamous community's midwifery clinic are younger than 18.

http://www.polygamyinfo.com/plygmedia%2004%20237vsun.htm

The Inconsistent of the Mormon's Doctrine of Polygamy

By David R. Kenney

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_08_07.htm

[B]Books:

God’s Brothel: The Extortion of Sex for Salvation in Contemporary Mormon and Christian Fundamentalist Polygamy and the Stories of 18 Women Who Escaped
Andrea Moore-Emmett

http://www.culticstudiesreview.org/csr_bkreviews/bkrev_godsbrothel.htm

Lots of evidence of abuse it seems.

Then the AG should get a DNA warrant and move forward. It's been long enough.

Frank, according to anyone who leaves any religion, group, family, or country, in anger, there is something wrong with it. I have noticed that everytime someone says something good about Bountiful the big "brainwashed" statement comes out. Also, look up marriage trends over the last fifty years. The average age of marriage fifty years ago was around 16. Everyone is always harping about how children should be allowed to have sex as early as 11, why can't they decide to get married when they are 16? It is legal in Canada. As too your solution to solving the problem of polygamy, you sound like someone who needs to be with the kkk or some other hate group that thinks getting rid of everyone who doesn't think the same as you is the only solution.

So you're in favour of Bountiful Stinger, Yes?

If the KKK was the only organization that was against child abuse and brainwashing I would join it. But in actual fact the KKK, and NAMBLA for that matter, would probably defend them.

As for children as young as 11 being encouraged to have sex, not in my neighbourhood nor anywhere I would care to live.

As for my solution to polygamy, you're misreading my post. Its my solution to a cult that involves children. If people want to enter such associations as adults I could care less. But children in Canada deserve more than to be educated within a cult, at the discretion of the cult, for the cult.

I suggest you read up on what the definition of a cult is and avoid sites where you're led to believe that 10% of the kids in school are sexually abused by staff.

Frank,
Defining a cult is inherently problematic since most people (including you, it seems) tend to use the term to describe a religious sect whose practices and doctrine they find abhorrent. If there is one hallmark, though, it's that cult members are restrained from leaving the cult. I don't have much time for the philosophies of the folks who run the show at Bountiful, but I don't sense that anyone who wants to leave is forced to stay. Indeed, there seems to plenty of evidence that people do leave all the time, albeit at some personal cost.

If the folks at Bountiful have broken any criminal laws, charge them. If they abused their children or put them at risk of real harm, we have child protection laws. If you think the age of consent is too low -- and it may well be -- lobby to change it.

But your idea that the state should intervene to give kids choices their parents choose to deny them opens up a world of problems. If religious parents are forced to let their children choose a secular path, should atheist parents be forced to send their children to church? After all, in the eyes of the true believers, the little dears may face an eternity of damnation if they don't make the right choice. That's the pesky thing about living in a diverse and tolerant society -- you have to put up with the fact that some people will live their lives -- and raise their children -- in ways that offend you deeply.

If I understand you correctly, your position is this: There are a bunch of people who keep to themselves, do things differently than we do and, oh yes, a "whiff" and a "smell" of bad things happening. And on this basis, you want to march in, trample all over freedom of religion and association, take children away from their parents, and, I can only presume from your call to "break up the cult", confiscate all their property?

Never mind due process, evidence and all those other legal niceties. Never mind that this is the sort of thinking that led, in past, to residential schools for First Nations children and the persecution of Doukhobors. These are clearly bad bad people, so we can just go ahead and do what we think is right.

Regarding EyeonPolygamy's comment that "The religious charter in Canada may defend religion, but it hardly overrides the law." Well, actually, subject to certain limitations, the Charter guarantee doesoverride the law - it renders it of no force and effect. (That's the whole point of entrenching the rights in the constitution.)

The key, however,is that unlike the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees the rights absolutely (which had led the courts to define them narrowly) the Canadian constitution makes them subject to "such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

So in determining whether the Criminal Code provisions on bigamy or polygamy were constitutionally valid, the court would first ask if they infringed freedom of religion (probably yes) and then whether that limit was justified. To determine this, they would apply what it known as the Oakes test, which asks 1) whether the objective of the impugned law is sufficiently important to justify the infringment of the right and 2)whether the means chosen to limit the right are proportional, which is to say a) are they rationally connected to the objective; b) do they impair the right as little as possible and c) is there some balance between the consequences of the limit and the importance of the objective.

So the question becomes, why is bigamy and/or polygamy against the law? Feel free to discuss.

The "whiff" and "smell" is all we have because the place has not been thoroughly investigated. We only have anecdotal evidence.

Freedom of religion means nothing in this context. The abuse by priests of children in orphanages, churches and residential schools in our history also took place behind the veil of religion. A useful tool for those who don't want their actions exposed.

You ascribe to me the statement "take children away from their parents". Wilful misrepresentation since I said no such thing. Same with "confiscation of land". Not sure where you're going but argue with me on the basis of what I've said, don't erect straw men or I'll happily do the same.

Never mind due process? Not at all. Let's see it happen. What I see instead is a history of people who don't want due process to occur. Expose Bountiful to the light of day. Let's see the kids attend school in Creston with the other kids. Let's see the kids engage in sport, learning and friendships with kids not from their community. That way, when they're 16 and being eyed by some guy who'd like a new young wife the kid is aware of her options and that she doesn't have to.

As for polygamy, ask yourself why it isn't occurring in every community in Canada. Why only in a place where the children know no other way of life?

Walks like a cult, talks like a cult.

Yes, punisher, I am in favour of Bountiful. And Frank, I don't belive you about 11 year olds not having sex in your neighbourhood. I have seen these facts on the internet. THEY MUST BE TRUE. As to the abuse in public school, do some research. Google "abuse in public school" It will give you thousands of sites to look at. I would sooner home school my children than send them to such a cesspool of abuse. I think you have been brainwashed into thinking public school is safe.

Oh, and Frank, the children do engage in activities outside Bountiful. Do you think it's okay for a 16 year old to be eyed by some guy who wants a new sex partner to brag to his other horny buddies about?

Public School Predators
by: Malcolm A. Kline, August 27, 2004

One of every ten public school students may experience some form of sexual abuse from public school employees, a U. S. Department of Education (DOE) study shows.

“Results of prevalence studies differ based upon definitions of sexual abuse, sample and data collection methods but range from 13 to 34 percent of females and 7 to 16 percent of males,” Carole Shakeshaft of Hoffstra University reported. Shakeshaft undertook the study, “Educator Sexual Misconduct: A synthesis of Existing Literature” for the DOE.

The actual proportions may be even higher. “Several studies estimate that only about 6 percent of all children report sexual abuse by an adult to someone who can do something about it,” Shakeshaft writes. “The other 94 percent do not tell anyone or talk only to a friend.”

Most sexual abuse occurs at the hands of relatives or close family friends. Are you sure your kids aren't safer in school?

As for your thousands of sites, I hate to break this to you but there are tens of thousands of sites that say little green men walk among us. Just because it can be googled doesn't make it true.

"Do you think it's okay for a 16 year old to be eyed by some guy who wants a new sex partner to brag to his other horny buddies about?"

I sure would have a problem with that if the girl couldn't refuse or had been brought up to think it was a compliment. Wouldn't you?

Now thats some one I know! Malcolm A. Kline was doing street gang studies for USC in the 1980's. At that time I was working for Community Youth Gang Services Project, which was based out of the East Los Angeles Probation Dept. I think you will find any number of studies to support a slant on either side. Inner City crime is no doubt bad, but it can be hardly compared to justify one culture over another.

The lack of oversight in closed communities, breeds abuse. If these societies are to be permitted, then they should welcome in over sight, but they do not. If the age of 16 is OK, why not 14, then what about 12? When you have a natural ratio of men to women, that is close to 1 to 1, it doesn't take a genious to see what follows. Ousting the disfellowshiped men, but keeping their wives and daughters, lowering the age of consent and ousting the young males and more!

The earliest I know of was age 9. Beth and Colleen 10 & 11, the girl in Krakauers book age 12. I can name those that were 13, 14 and alot at 15. In my case I have 3 daughters ages 12, 14 & 16 and while my society is different, maturity and choice are still issues. If there is to be equity for women in society, they need the same education and free choice to come to that cross road of choice, but in a society where a preisthood council decides who will mary whom, gender equity does not exist.

While choices are proposed now, the history of this group is far different than what we are hearing now.

MIB

Polygamy is largely a non-issue. If the cultists are having sex with children they should be charged. On the other hand, if someone wants to have multiple wives (or multiple husbands for that matter) let them. We have no business telling adults what they can do with thei sex lives as long as it is between adults and consensual. Persecuting them will only make them martyrs in their eyes and probably lead to Waco-like violence. Live and let live!

In the spirit of live and let live should we also scrap minimum wage laws and all labour standards since everyone is free to leave?

Maybe allow Wal-Mart to build its own town, with a Wal-Mart school where the kids are taught how to be a greeter and how unions are evil. Those that have trouble with the concept can be kicked out to fend for themselves. When they're 18 Wal-Mart can let them vote on whether to belong to a union or not.

Maybe McDonalds would like to do something similar, or Pepsico. What a happy place full of happy workers the world would be then.

"If there is to be equity for women in society, they need the same education and free choice to come to that cross road of choice, but in a society where a preisthood council decides who will mary whom, gender equity does not exist.' writes EyeOnPolygamy.

This is an extremely important statement here on this issue, I think. Special application of law enforcement in these kinds of "religious" communities, by the larger secular/mixed cultural society is a big issue, clearly. But proably of equal importance is this very issue, which some of us have attempted to address, by way of bringing the light of day into these "closed worlds", is this issue of removing education from the control of "religious interests", period, and making available to ALL young people as a right and obligation, all that is known "most scientifically" and "knowledge based" rather than religious or "faith based" about gender issues and the history of human societies and religion.

Education at all levels in society, and not just in places like Bountiful, needs to be taken out of the hands of priests, and returned entirely back to the public school system, along with the financing. It is this tolerance of religious based education, as the main access to education by many, that is what helps nourish the ideas and faith issues of places like Bountiful.

The key is shining the light of day and education into these kinds of places, and ensuring that women and the young get a good ideas grounding in the alternatives, and our best and most objective knowledge base.

Outside of that, produce the evidence and charge the law breakers fearlessly, not haphazardly as is the inclination of the system, where religion is still allowed to wield excessive influence.

And some folks will still make this choice, male and female-, fool ourselves not.

Frank,
I didn't intend to misrepresent your position, particularly on the apprehension of children. That said, it seems to me that when you say "let the kids attend school in Creston" when (I assume) that their parents want them to attend school in Bountiful, you are, at the very least, taking a major and important decision away from their parents. And when you say, "break up the cult", I assume you're suggesting more than just walking in and wagging a finger. As for, "the Princess Pats Light Infantry should send a platoon into Bountiful and do an Abu Gharib on Blackmore's ass", well, I'll leave that to you to clarify.

Whatever you might think, freedom of religion is an essential question here. Not as a defence against sexual exploitation charges or against child abuse charges, but as a possible challenge to the criminal law against polygamy. If you enforce the law, you will be met by an argument that Blackmore's God tells him to marry many wives, including girls in their teens, and the government has no good reason to use the criminal law to stop him from doing just that. I think there may be a valid reason for the government to legislate against polygamy, but I'd be interested to hear how you would answer that argument. Other, that is, that doing an Abu Gharib on the lawyer's ass.

That's just it, Frank. I happen to be from Bountiful. I have friends on the "outside" as you great people put it. They have told me of parties they went to were girls are making out with as many boys as possible, "keeping score". This is the life I should teach my children to want? MIB, The men in Bountiful aren't being kicked out. It may be happening in CC, but it isn't in Bountiful.
Sure people leave the community. They don't want to live the life. They sure aren't turn out and left with nothing. I have lots of good friends who have left Bountiful. My brother among them. They all have jobs. Most of them work for the same company as I do. They are loggers, truck drivers, and a mechanic. And Frank, if you have children, are they safe in your house?

One thing I will agree on, is that if you research this or any subject as though your life depended on it, the facts are out there. Bountiful had a study done about 10 years ago, but no doubt those who don't support it, would disagree with the findings. Leanne McGregor a constable with the RCMP in the early 1990s investigated crimes for a case that was prosecuted and where a conviction was obtained. That investigative file was most interesting, but might be some what different today as it was under the dual leadership that included Rulon Jeffs at the time.

Its abit like the diamond analogy, there are hundreds of perspectives and they include more than just those there vs those who have left. Those with family still inside, while they are out have the toughest road to follow. With Bountiful it is certainly more moderate compared to Warren Jeff's following.

I think however the issue of choice based on the past allowed teenage boys considered wayward to leave, but denied girls the same age the same option. In the same name sake in the USA more than a dozen girls in their teens tried to run since 2001 and only a couple with help were successful. Because they were underage under the law, the parents will and desire to place them was an override to an idea that they had a choice.

Assuming most here are in Canada, in the CBC TV piece "You Can Never Leave" by the Fifth Estate, I was the bearded bloodshot, tired eyed guy that picked up a FLDS runaway in the dead of night, in a 400 mile trek. I understood her plight and the parents angst. What I considered a human rights question, others simply call religion. To those who have debated religion, the doctrine of the FLDS that places damnation in the scales over their heads, the same exist for other issues, in many churches, thus addressing this as a religious question is not solid ground.

As a legal, ethical and human rights issue under the law, the approach places better understanding on a very complex issue. On many bloggs the equation gets dragged into the Bible and the old testament, which has no place in the legal status under the law. On one hand when I rescued a runaway, I was aiding and abetting, along with harbouring a runaway. It was illegal! But I was aware that a forced union at age 15 was also illegal. I knew the childs father was under investigation for Incest after he married his second wife's daughter, as his third wife after several years of her calling him dad. I had the criminal complaint, I had talked to the witnesses and had recorded several hours of phone dialog to support my justification. Before the rescue, the State Attorney General and FBI were contacted and those calls recorded. The logic that two wrongs make a right could have been applied, but do we really want a society where its OK for one group to violate the law, then have it equally OK to have another group counter the first? Like its OK to force juveniles to cohabitate with older men at their parents consent, but equally OK for those that disagree to intercede? Next there might be a referee, followed by a shoot out. When we chose the laws we wish to follow, what follows is chaos.

This was not the only attempt, but it was the sucessful one. So when I hear this free choice BS, I know where that line begins and ends! The FLDS attorneys prior to this escape attempt had also threatened me in writing and on letterhead for reporting sexual abuse of a minor. While it is difficult to judge the present, the past is well documented. Geoff Plant and Gordon Campbell would no me by name and it all depends on just how deep any one really wants to go or look.

What is clear, decriminalized or illegal, this society and the rest of society needs oversight. The world is full of crimes and a thousand reports could paint my slant or yours, but the bottom line is all of society needs watch dogs and whistle blowers, it makes up the checks and balances. If we are hearing that the new Bountiful has improvements, then we are admitting it had problems before.

MIB

cmd, I'm not sending in the Princess Pats, I qualified that by saying it would be a last resort if the leaders of the community refused to allow the light of day in shall we say.

As for going to outside schools, tough. I had to travel by bus when I was a kid. My parents would have preferred a school close to home but that's life. Same with all schools, there's a catchment area and that's where you go. Nobody gets to tell the government they need to build one just for white kids or asian kids or something. Going to school is not having children taken from their parents.

As is clear from every one of my posts I could care less about polygamy. Really. I really couldn't care any less.

However, when I see it happening in only one place and in only one manner (men with multiple wives and not the other way around) and where the education system is within the closed loop of the community well my this-stinks-antennae goes up. If 20% of Toronto, Edmonton and Vancouver were in polygamous relationships I wouldn't care. But the fact is, they're not. Unless there's something in the air or water around Bountiful I suggest everyone's antennae should be humming.

EyeOnPolygamy says: " The inclusion of religion like any organized church adds a threat to salvation where intimidation through damnation is added."

And that is the weapon that so many organized religions use, tangling and interweaving these controversial issues with fear-laden intimidation for their own means of control. Still commenting here is like traversing a minefield. The child abuse issue here seems so clear if you can unknot it from the circumstance. But questions of the boundaries of religion and parental control are complicated ones. For example - Circumsions on baby boys: Torture or a religious and parental decision? The refusal by the Catholic Church to support the use of condoms in Africa where millions will die of aids: Cruel tyranny or religious doctrine? Religions allow people to suffer and die everyday, through the power of fear and the threat of damnation. And the law often wears convenient blinders and looks the other way. As do we.

I always remember the wise shirin's comment ( who I miss) about the dangers of imposing our saccharine simplistic value systems on others - that as we judge, we risk being judged in kind.

Still, I understand Frank's wrath and respect it, if Blackmore is guilty of abusing young girls, then even Abu Ghraib is too good for him...just as long as we realize the hypocrisies we all take part in by looking the other way on so many other lethal combinations of religion ( which certainly fits the Oxford definiton of a cult) and control that are happening at this very moment... and the difficult questions that loom surrounding the consequences of crossing the boundaries of personal freedom... as I said a minefield.

Not trying to convince anyone, to each his own, but due to those minefields, I like my beliefs a lot less complicated now - sun, moon, stars, a sprinkle of wildflowers, salt air and a warm wind. And skinny-dipping in the ocean. Best church there is. No man made rules or paraphenalia. The less I know, the more divine the mystery. Organized religion, I think, just runs interference between man and God.

You people talk about Bountiful as being a closed community, yet you do nothing to try to change it. The principal of Bountiful's school has invited any teacher or professional who wants, to come check out the school. He said they could come unannounced. The BCTF was given this invitation. They declined. Then they go back to their stories about the “closed society” of Bountiful, “abusing their children”. Come on people. If you want to criticize, at least do us the honer of trying to get your facts straight. Why shouldn't we be a closed society? Every time anyone has spoken out, they are told “Oh, you are just brainwashed. I read this story or that book, or this person told me this is the way it is.”
You are probably thinking this about me, right now. "Oh, he is just say this because he was taught to talk like this, he doesn't know any better." ROFLMAO

Stinger

The fact that you can use the internet is an example of a better life and more choices, that were not available to you only a few years back. Warren does not permit it and would oust any one caught. This puts you under Winston and not Jimmy. No doubt your name is on a geneogram that is attached to my office wall, courtesy of Jolene and her ability to lay out a unique family tree.

There is little I am not aware of in Bountiful, but as stated its a complex issue and needs alot of thought. Yes I know Debbie, but Jane too. Carol who was with the INS and related and a dozen others who are no longer inside. I have all of the hardback theology books published at Twin City Publishing in Hildale, along with most of Warrens lectures from the Alta Academy 1996-1998 on cassette. Debating what is both copyrighted and or in the words of Warren, would not be a wise debate if you were one of his following, unless of course as prophet he could be wrong?

A few years ago Merrill Palmer dialoged by email when such was not allowed, but truly Bountiful has come a long ways.

My challenge still stands, helping me find Kenyon Blackmore who is an abuser and I will believe that those in Bountiful have better intendions. If oversight is not needed or comes from self policing, then meet me half way!

MIB

Frank,
As I understand it, the children in Bountiful are educated in a private denominational school that, like all such schools in B.C., receives some measure of public funding. You're proposing to deny them that right (which is available to every other religion in B.C) and make them attend public school.

As for polygamy, perhaps the reason it's only happening in Bountiful is because Bountiful (unlike, say, Toronto) is home to a religious organization that embraces polygamy as one of its fundamental beliefs. Not that there aren't other religious groups )some of whom have members in large cities) who would welcome the opportunity to practice polygamy.

The basis for the FLDS being qualified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center this last week was based on the cassettes that Warren used in 1997 and 1998 at the Alta Academy. When the world can only judge a group by the words of the man they identify as their prophet and seer, the results becomes based on both the written words and voice of the one at the top. To Warren's benefit, the scripture that says; Cain recieved a mark, coinsides with the mainstream mormon church in publications that predate 1978. The extent of the racism of one church or the other, can only be judged by the spoken word of either and Warren on cassette was far more extreme or clear than the discriptions offered by the mainstream church. None the less society will judge any group by that groups leader.

The ethnic question when a school is funded by tax dollars in the US or Canada, becomes a huge concern. While Winston has indicated that many changes have occured, the doctrine that was in place until 2002 and apparently still in place if you are in the Jeffs splinter group, has not changed. I tend to agree with Lynn that science based cirriculum is needed or the teachings heard on TV and radio stations nationwide last week can be perpetuated and so with tax dollars, funded in part by the minorities spoken ill of in such cassettes heard.

If it had not been in Warren's voice and simply implied in print text, it might of been debated. Having heard Warren's view of the Sun and what it is made of along with the Moon we really haven't landed on, Warren's statements beg the oversight that does not yet exist. In the US under Superintendent Alvin B's. watch, the Colorado City School District squanders nearly 5 million dollars a year. SUV's for the school board, janitors making more than teachers, board members with district credit cards taking personal vacations, an airplane purchased from the son of the President of the school board and so on. History states that oversight is needed.

If we are looking at the school in Bountiful, I would have to ask which one and then I saw the list of problems that were associated with the Jeffs school to justify the Blackmore school, so there was a past, that remains a concern today. The question of leadership alone goes back to the religious question that allows church to govern state funded programs. As Winston was Superintendent and Merrill Principal, did the abuses Winston identified occur because of the Jeffs influence 1500 miles away? If they did, then if a teacher wanted to complain about Winston wouldn't she be in the same boat as Winston was under the leadership and control of Warren and Rulon Jeffs? Then a better question might also be, how many teachers are there and how many of those are Winston's wives?

Oversight is needed to prevent what occured last week in these released cassettes and to insure such can not happen again. The open house that invited the local school association in was a generous step, but addressing hard issues that require precise answers is more of what is needed. The history which is very real, identified the former school as out of control under Jeffs control, then worse for the public school Jeffs controlled and still does in Colorado City Arizona.

MIB

EyeOnPolygamy: That is Coyote's suggestion (and a good one) on a science-based curriculum that you are referring to above.

MIB, I don't know who Kenyon Blackmore is. If I knew of the location of any child abuser I would turn them in to the RCMP. Unless they had abused one of my children. Then I would personally castrate them.
Of course Bountiful has come a long way. Your source, Debbie Palmer, hasn't lived there for over seventeen years. As to the internet being banned, you must have a better source than me. I never recieved that notice. Or maybe that was one of those little stretches of truth and changes of doctrine your "source" likes to use. My life, as far as I have noticed, has been pretty much the same as any of you people. I live the same kind of life as most other Canadians. I play hockey, watch the popular shows, listen to the popular music. I don't agree with liberal politics, don't like gun control or abortion, though I couldn't care less if homosexuals get married. I only have one wife, though I believe in polygamy. I will never seek out another wife. And I definetly would not marry a 15 year old. I have used computers all my life. Had access to the internet ever since I bought my first computer. (I own three right now) As to the documents and tapes you have of warren's, welcome to them. I burnt the ones I had. Every religion, community, town or country has its weirdos and extremists. Don't judge the whole by the sum of its parts. One more thing. I am not 70 years old and my wife isn't 14.

But is your story typical of the lives of the children, of Bountiful? - no inbreeding etc.

Why embrace polygamy, while only having one wife? I mean, what made you grow up to be a believer?

Thanks! Ditto to Coyote....

Organized religion poses a problem when arguments becomed based on religion. When I first looked at this issue, my sources were another splinter of the same group that broke off in the mid 1980's to form a seperate community. Centennial Park is across the road and 2 miles further East than Colorado City. A group of the FLDS split back then challenging the one man rule. Those who left tried using religion to defend their point of view with each other, then the same in court, with the DA and with investigators. If you were not raised in this it was both confusing and rediculous to bring eviction and legal arguments of unjust enrichment into a court and in front of a judge who was blind to a religious bias.

Exempting the inner marriages in Canada, the Colorado City/Hildale location, followed by Centennial Park was made up of families with the same last names. This was an internal family/religious struggle, but it was resulting in harsh evictions because most of the members had built homes on the church trust lands.

What is complicated is that while the "Short Creek Raid" of 1953 made it appear as though it was government abusing families practising there faith, today it is something different. The victims of today are stuck in a class system, where an abuse of power has created victims between the leadership and those who have challenged it, who are also members or former members. A 22 family class action lawsuit between 1987 and 1998 were fighting off evictions. Many many families have been reassigned as was exampled by the former patriarch in Fred Jessop who wasn't capable of making children, but had 100 of them. The men and women ousted, or some have challenged the old ways of leaving quietly, adopting this idea that they actually have rights and recourse under the law. Today it is less about the world outside complaining and more about those branded as apostates, disenfranchised from both the Jeffs and Blackmore factions.

The interest of government is most certainly on the rise and it began with victims that came from within. The issues of interest go way beyond polygamy or childbrides alone. It is a very complex issue, once you have stepped in, with equally as complicated suggestions for adding oversight while remaining fair.

MIB

Stinger

Kenyon is Winston's cousin, just as Brenda, Wendy, Marla, Jim and Laine are cousins in LaVerkin Utah. He is a Canadian citizen with family still in your area. He's the one who lived in Guatamala for sometime. The Rodeo rider in his younger days.

You're right you have had greater freedom in Lister, but had you been under Warren's stricter rules in Hildale or Colorado City, your life might have been different. I could try to guess the name of your wife, but my guess is you would not confirm it for me. The internet allows us to be some what anonymous, but it lacks an ability to really verify the honesty of our statements. Your age and that of your wife, are not likely to be verified here.

While I certainly know Debbie, my last conversation with her was in July of last year. My more recent dialog comes from Bountiful from someone else who also has a computer!

MIB

Mr. Blackmore, as well as being the leader of this sect, is also the Superintendent of Schools for Bountiful. The 14- and 15-year-olds he married (legally or not) were students at the school there. Can you imagine what would happen if a teacher, let alone a superintendent, in a public school district had sexual relations with a student? Would that not be considered abuse, and rightly so? Can freedom of religion be used as a defence in such a case?

Yes, my story is typical. I have a very large group of friends, both inside and outside of the church. They all live pretty much the same as I do. (Though most aren't into computers as much)

One of the biggest myths about our church is that we all have more than one wife. This originates from some one saying we believe a man must have three wives in order to get to heaven. We don't beleive this. Inbreeding is another myth.
As to why I embrace polygamy, why does anybody embrace any aspect of their own religion? It's quite hard to explain what I believe to someone who doesn't believe the same. You won't be able to see things from the same perspective.

The Colorado City/Hildale children's graveyard has 62 unmarked grave's. I can't say I know the reasons for such a high mortality rate, but I have several friends with autistic children up there and the rate of birth defects are higher than the norm. The issue of the gene pool being to close is of a scientific nature and supported by unviversity studies. There is an advantage to the Canada, US link in seperating family characteristics. In Colorado City I know cousins who have married, neices to uncles and a few closer than that.

I know Jack Cooke do I need to say more? My concern with Kenyon is he married his biological daughter at age 12. She miscarried which was fortunate.

A white paper called "My Cousin Lucky" addresses the inbreeding issue. The grave issue was something the FBI in Arizona had refered to the FBI in St. George Utah. In California that many unmarked graves would be a huge concern, but Colorado City/Hildale is self policed, so addressing such may take some time.

MIB

MIB, My name is Kevin R. Blackmore. I am 27 years old. I have nothing to hide. Sure there are some problems in CC under warren's rule, but I don't live there, and we aren't discussing them. I haven't found any problems with Bountiful.
But maybe I'm just "brainwashed".

I have heard of Jack Cooke. If this Kenyon is the same type of person, they both need castrated. Catch them and I will even hold the scalpel.

don quixote

I think the two girls mentioned as young would be a Chatwin girl and a Johnson girl who were both from down below, but had they been is a regular school at that age it would be 5-10 years in prison. We had a teacher in St. George get 5 years for consentual sex with a 16 year old student. This case pissed off a lot of locals as the former Colorado City mayor's son 51 years old molested 4 of his daughters and got 13 days in jail. Its all public record. The father mayor Dan Barlow was ousted a year ago January and had his wives reassigned, shortly there after.

Stinger

The issue of multiple wives has been perpetuated by the shear numbers Winston has taken, which are far less than that of Warren. Shadow boxing the numbers in interviews do not hide how many he actually has. The school count of his kids are another clue, but if you averaged his with yours and divided by 2 what number would I use as that average? Don't get tricky now! I was one of the cameramen at the March 3rd Town Hall meeting in St. George where Winston attended with several of his ladies attending with him. I will stay away from the numbers here, but to be absolutely honest, its the leaderships number of wives that has spotlighted the notice of the meaning quantity. He only brought with him a few!

MIB

Stinger- can I get a decent job in Bountiful, walk my dog off leash once in a while, and have five (hot) husbands? Please get back to me- if so, I'm packing my bags. It's ok if they're around 18, long as they are cute. Or, as Frank pointed out in an earlier comment, does this polygamy thing work only one way? "Why does anyone embrace any aspect of their own religion?" you ask; can't answer that because I have yet to discover one (well, I like Buddhism) that really appeals to the female-ness in me; know what I'm saying? They appear to work well for the 'other' gender- so yeah, get back to me on the multiple husband thing; I await your answer anxiously.

How are you related to Winston? It might tell me how Kenyon is related to you. Lorna, Brenda, Wendy, Marla, Jim & Laine are the adult children of Harold Wooley Blackmore. Its been so long and its late but wasn't Winston's father Ray? Then he had a brother that was Henry? If you are a Blackmore this is all more clear to you. Did you marry Samantha or Teresa?

Jay

Ok, just to be cheeky; how good is this Winston dude in the sack, anyway? I mean wow- he's got a lot of pressure to keep all those wives happy. Maybe there is something in all this after all...

Actuelly MIB, Most the women with Winston at the St. George meeting weren't his wifes. There was a group of 8 women from Bountiful in CC on vacation that Winston invited to go to the meeting with him. He also had a couple of his daughters along. One of the women there was my wife so I think I have a pretty good source as to who was there. Another funny thing about you people, you see a man from Bountiful with some women and you immediately assume he is married to them all.
That's where the 14 year olds married to old men rumor comes from. A man takes his family somewhere, some old crone sees his daughter holding one of the younger children and rushes off to tell about the young child brides. There are quite a few people from Bountiful that have had this experience. I know of quite a few girls who have been cussed out for having babies when they were so young, just because they were tending a younger sibling. And it doesn't do any good to deny it. Nobody cares about the truth. We are all "brainwashed" anyway.

Stinger

How about Jack Cooke for Fii, Jack's available! I think he is living with his brother Lynn. They use the term Unic in Colorado City for a bachelor, is that ever used in Bountiful?
J

Fii, I'm sorry but we believe polygamy only works one way. But hey, if I ever hear tell of a church where you can have a few good men, I'll drop you a line. Actually I do know of one kinda like. It's called The Church Of The Divine Woman. I can't remember where it is based, but there was a woman who claimed God came to her in a vision and told her if she slept with 1000 men she would then become The Divine Woman, and would have the power to save souls through sex. If you had one of these visions and started your own church you would have it made.

Hmmmm.....
Its posible, but he said they were his wives. I guess I will have to ask him.

J

Haha, tell me more about Jack...

So without debate, how many wives do you say Winston has and will this match Jane's figure, being she was not only his first and legal wife, but also ran the birthing center. Give me a number that will match.

Jay

J, We refer to most of the men of CC as eunichs. Any man that would leave their family like them boys do, doesn't have what it takes to be a man. I assume this is what you meant. lol

"We believe polygamy only works one way"- why's that? Can you get me the contact address of a young woman from Bountiful, a teenage girl, I'd love to meet with her. Where is this place anyway?

Fii

Just kidding... You don't want to know! I am still not sure Stinger knows Jack. Since we are still shadow boxing about the number of wives, its just as likely that he may only say he knows who Jack is. A few years ago the school dollar amount on just Winston's kids was $25,800. for what a $300. per child subsidy? Thats alot of kids!

Here's a question for Stinger, who handled Winston's divorce representing his wife? Since we are bound to play the numbers game and not be honest, how about I ask a question where I don't provide the answers already in my question. Stinger; tell me about Jack and how old he is, I'm losing faith in your other answer and am not even sure your name is Kevin?

MIB

Fii

Bountiful is in a community called Lister, just outside of Creston British Columbia. To the south the Port Hill crossing out of the Idaho panhandle or Boundary County Idaho. The closest city in Idaho being Bonners Ferry.

Its pretty country!

MIB

Sorry Jay but I have no idea how many wives Winston has, nor do I care. I don't know whether or not you read our on-line newspaper but Winston put some facts about himself in the latest one, for anyone wondering.

Fii, I imagine that if you had two or three sister wives naggin' on a husband with you ,you could probably get him to put in the work that would normally take a couple husbands to do.

So how are you related to Winston?

MIB

Thanks for the info; I'm tempted to make a road trip to Creston/Bountiful and check it out, talk to people. What's a good cafe? On that note, I'm off to sleep- take care all.

Jay I'm pretty sure I said I had only heard of Jack Cooke. And I only heard of him just recently. And why would I care who handled Winston's divorce with Jane? I had nothing to do with it. Your last post reeked of typical media story spinnage. I couldn't care less if you believe me or not about my name. I take it you must not have me on that extensive family tree hanging in your office. Seriously dude, you need some better office decorations.

Fii, Try the Kitchener Cafe. They make some mean Fish N' Chips.

Jay, I am Winston's nephew.

The point remains you avoid answering simple questions. You would love to help or even castrate Kenyon, but you don't know him. You are both Blackmore's and Lister is not that big. I asked how you were related to Winston as Kenyon is Winston's cousin. How you are related, might help you to remember that relative you can't remember now. The questions are simple, but the answers have a familiar ring to them.

The reasons to demand oversight are reflected in the ability of those in Bountiful to not answer simple questions. When its noted that the school association was invited to the April 19th open house, would they too get the same response to simple questions. For more than a decade Mayor Dan Barlow was the only spokesman for Colorado City and the same kind of questions I have asked, got the same answers, when folks asked them to any other citizen of Colorado City other than the Mayor. No one knows anything and if you need an answer that can be verified, you need to take it to the spokesman.

So you don't know how you are related to the Bishop of Bountiful or as Debbie's book state's this is called "Keeping Sweet"? You see you have told me only what you want to offer and have chosen not to answer questions that might leed to some sunstance. If you are unclear of your last name, how do I know that you know your first name and age? So far I know really nothing, but thats the point isn't it. Now you can understand why government agencies are frustrated. Your business is not our business, but the community is government supported and those underage brides many were US citizens.

In the end we return to our corners, you accuse us of being typical and we remain frustrated by not getting answers to very simple questions.

MIB

Tomorrow I will tell you exactly how you are related to Kenyon and who his father was.

Here's the problem. Straight forward answers get trusted cooperation. Because of a series of events both the US and Canadian governments are becoming concerned. The designation last week by SPLC compounded deeper issues and we have to agree the April 19th meeting was timely. PR was needed and it broke the ice, but if it ended the evening of the 19th, then it was more about show than cooperation.

Idaho enacted House Resolution No. 18 to study the border migration of victim trafficing, as an ammendment to US Senator Brownbacks legislation of; the Smith/Gejdenson Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000 (H.R. 3244). In escence the combined concerns of Warrens activities in Texas, combined with related issues has taken root and is not likely to go away anytime soon. Its going to take more cooperation and less double talk when investigative authority poses the same questions.

I was starting to think Winston was moving in a new direction, but after tonight I'm not so sure.

Its been interesting. Have a good life.

Jay Beswick

Jean Binette: The Attorney General of British Columbia should grasp the "slippery fish of truth" and act without further delay to bring the matter of Bountiful before the court.

EyeOnPolygamy, if Mr. Blackmore's girl-wives are indeed from south of the line, are they legal residents of Canada, and if so, how did they get visas? Is it legal to move minors across the border like that?

This has been an extremely interesting discussion for me to read. (I came out of a fundamentalist religious family background-, which I fled very young.) While it has all been very useful, in terms of my developing my own understanding of this fairly complex issue, I especially appreciate the contribution of our US friend to the discussion, EyeOnPolygamy.

Thank you.

Jay, you need to learn to read. I have clearly told you that I was a Blackmore, and Winston's nephew. My grandfather was Ray Blackmore. I have never met any of his brothers, or any of their children. Do you know every Beswick in the world? How do I know you are even a man? You seem more like one of those gossipy old women.

The Attorney General should come visit Bountiful. It wouldn't do a hole heck of a lot of good, though. When he found no abuse, or brides under 16, you people would keep on with your screeching about the authorities not doing anything. You don't really care about the truth, do you. You twist around everything we say, and refuse to believe anything that doesn't square up with the story you want to believe. You may have noticed how jay beswick did just that with the dialoge we have been having.

Stinger: - May I draw your attention to section 293 of the Criminal Code?

The word 'cult' has been tossed out here a few times, with little attempt at defining it. Here's an heuristic tool which makes an attempt at quantifying cult-like behaviour.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

The author, a member of a neo-pagan druid order, created it in response to accusations that he was part of a cult.

So, Stinger, how high does Bountiful score?

I would say Bountiful scores low.
I have read section 293 before. Do you know what a conjugal union is? There are quite a few things that are against the law. Did you know that prostitution is against the law? A whole lot more people break that law than the polygamy law. Also, according to the conjugal union part, anyone who commits adultery is also breaking the law.

BTW, check outs section 296 - 301 of the criminal code.

And you may argue that as a defence.

I was interested in stingers' comment about children in school being abused in school by their teachers. It becomes believable now. The BCTF has made claim that 1500 of our proffesional teachers have signed their petition to have the Government discriminate against the people of Bountiful. That is very disturbing to hear so many of the Teachers going against their own Social issues. Remember all of the Mission schools where so many of the first nations children were menatlly, physically, and sexually abused. Remember the Doukabor children in the 1950's.
Abuse does happen in schools everywhere. I am not supporting abuse. I just don't like the finger pointed at Bountiful. Our Mormon Hills Independent school only goes to grade 7 The highschool students are registered with the Public school Dist.#8 homelinks program. The group of teenage girls pictured in this news article are some of the 27 highschool students who are registered with the public school. I now fear for them getting fair treatment, if the school teachers have all signed a petition to support discrimination against them and their religeon.

Reading the comments of Fii. it sounds as if she is only interested in sex. To answer her question: No Fii you cannot have 5 husbands in Bountiful, because our religeon is abourt family units, it is not just about sex. I'm sure you already have multiple partners already, so you can consider yourself a polygamist.

Mission schools were not run by the BCTF, they were ran by religous authorities.

There is no factual basis to any claim that has come from Stinger regarding his view of the outside world. Its all hearsay-gossip, the kind that would bubble up from a closed off community.

Bountiful won't put its kids into the regular school system because it doesn't want them exposed to other views.

cmd, you may believe tolerance includes segregation. I don't. Segregation, whether its voluntary or imposed, leads to bigotry, 'ism's, abuse and a lack of community. Perhaps you support the rise of separate schools. I don't. I believe white kids, asian kids, african kids of all beliefs and genders should attend the same schools. Get to know each other. That's how you create a tolerant society. Not by each valley in Canada keeping to itself with little oversight.

Stinger,
Actually, it's well-established that the "conjugal union" of s.293 does not include adultery. See Rex v. Tolhurst and Wright [1937] O.R. 570. That said, it appears that there hasn't been a successful prosecution under s.293 in more than 100 years.
A
s for s.296-301, which deal with matters such as blasphemous libel and defamatory libel, they are seldom used. Blasphemous libel, in particular, has fallen into disuse.

I think Blackmore is hot and want to take him for my second bride.

Frank,
I don't support segregation any more than I support polygamy. But I do support the idea that people should, within limits, be able to choose how to raise and educate their children. If I understand you correctly, you believe all children should be required to attend a secular public school. There may be some merit to that idea, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

The key phrase within your argument is "within limits". I support the idea of Jewish, Christian, islamic teaching for example, but I'd want the classes to be open to kids of other faiths by simply being added to the curriculm of a secular school as an elective. I'm not a fan of home schooling either but agree it can be the best channel for individual cases such as due to bullying. But not if other schools are available.

It is my opinion, and clearly its only an opinion, a tolerant society can only be built if different groups can socialize with each other and understand each other. It cannot be built on avoidance of each other through segregation.

[B]Here is a definition of a cult

``Religion'' and ``cult'' are two names for the same thing. Typically, the former term is used when referring to centuries-old institutions of sociocognitive warfare, and the latter when referring to new ones or ones which are of intermediate age and include significant doctrine that is inconsistent with, or not ancestral to, the doctrine of an old institution. Both Scientology and Catholicism are both religions and cults. When subordination to a new institution of sociocognitive warfare ceases to be stigmatized by those who are subordinated to older institutions, the new institution ceases to be considered a cult and comes to be considered a religion. Once an institution is considered a religion, it will continue to be considered as such, even if subordination to it is again stigmatized. This has occured with Judaism, the subordinates of which have been stigmatized by a variety of groups for a variety of reasons.

Link for above quote.
http://www.mega.nu/ampp/ancient.html#metatop

Frank, You have no facts to support the claims against Bountiful. Who do you think would be the best person to tell me about Frank? Your ex-wife, who split after a nasty divorce? Maybe her mother? Your neighbour whose prize lawn your dog keeps pooping on? Maybe that fellow whose girlfriend you stole back in highschool? I could ask your children, but you probably brainwashed them into thinking your a great guy. I could ask you, but you wouldn't have any way to prove you claims. Maybe I will wait for the media to interview the "good sources" I mentioned, and then form my opinion based on theirs. I might even see if there is some Yankee who lives hundreds of miles away that might have a family tree that shows how your second cousin, twice removed, walked outside with his fly undone. That would show your character.

Sure, talk to them all, its all good.

Obviously you see Canada as being a closed-loop community like Bountiful, just bigger. It isn't.

Also, assuming what the people of Bountiful say when they speak out is accurate, I do have facts.

Yours on the other hand seems to be "take my word for it".

With which I basically agree; cults tend to be religions, and all religions are cults.

I disagree with Frank re religious "instruction" in public schools. All children should receive a mixed cultural/racial, and scientific education in the public education institutions, as the most evidence based cognitive system for understanding the world that society has thus far created, including a "scientific understanding of religion."

If folks want to give their children additional religious instruction at home or in the cult/church, they should do so, and be free to do. That said, there being so many religious and cult "faith based" systems, which do you include and which do you leave out. It is simply more practical and less confusing to the young "for society" to take the position, that ALL religious/cult education be kept out of the public school system-, starting from the foundation that religious belief systems are purely a matter of "personal" choice, of pure speculative "faith"-, and superfluous to a scientific grounding, which is all public education should provide-, including of religion/ cultism itself.

My final stir of the pot.

Frank, Isn't the people of Bountiful you talk of speaking out, take my word for it kind of stuff?

Somebody call the POLICE! - Frank's escaped again.

You would be a great trial judge Stinger, no witnesses allowed.

What's wrong punishee, hoping the courts will overturn the laws on sex with minors?

Sigh! - no Frank, I'd just like to see them get a fair trial.

What do you mean Frank? You are the one saying no witnesses allowed. I have spoken out on behalf of Bountiful but you say that though my testimony is eye-witness, since it doesn't square with the story you want to believe, it is no good. You are talking guily until proven innocent and you wont allow any prove of innocence to be admitted.

You're not listening Stinger, I want a full investigation. Not a media day.

But when the Bountiful community itself claims its changed and "stuff" that happened in the past will no longer happen, well that kinda tells me that "stuff" did in fact happen.

don quixote

The legal citizenship is something I would like to have explained. If Lorraine Johnson was 15, per her fathers recorded interview with journalist Suzan Mazur was truthful, then as a juvenile entering Canada did she recieved public benefit funds from Canada and how? As she was not a first wife, under the law she is cohabitating. An adult over 18 now, but if she is a legal citizen of Canada which I suspect she is, then Canada allowed her in through a back door. So they now recognize her as what Mrs. Blackmore or Ms. Johnson? Because a parents belief permitted the union, doesn't make it legal.

The idea of trading sexual favor where by the parent choses to circumvent the law is illegal here and afterall she is or was an American born citizen. If such was legal, as a parent I could say gee I need my transmission rebuilt but can't afford it. I could find a mechanic that would trade sexual favors with my daughter and score a free repair. Under the law a parent can not offer sexual consent for a minor to cohabitate otherwise that minor could be prostituted and exploited. Consent to a marriage underage maybe, but only when she is the first and legal wife.

So there are several here from Bountiful, how about telling us here which last name is legally used by Lorraine? Don't side step the question and turn his into a series of arguments, just be honest and tell the facts. For Stinger you know whom she is married to, so don't say Lorraine who? She would be like an aunt to you.

Stinger

Now as for Kenyon's father, it was Pete and your dad was friends and well aware of Kenyon. Lets not put me in a situation where I have to name everyone in your family. Your mother and mine share the same first names!

Per the over exageration of wives we take your 1, add it to Winstons' ___ Divide by two and what almost a bakers dozen? I can name every single one of them. What would be nice in defending the lifestyle would be to be up front and honest about things that can be verified. If this is a valid way of life, dodging questions and offering vague answers, might make most assume there is secrets worth hiding.

So now you know whom Kenyon is, talk to your parents and tell me they don't know him. Then per Lorraine Johnson what is her legal status and what last name does Canada recognize? Two reasonably clear requests, lets see how well you do?

MIB

Anything wrong ever happen in your community Frank? Also, what will you say if a full investigation happens and no evidence of wrong doing is found?

Yes Stinger it does, but I don't claim my community is being discriminated against.

I'll say good. What would you say if the opposite happens?

Stinger

Lets talk about Teresa Wall, Lloyds daughter how old was she when she was taken to Canada and how willing was she? Her age and what, was it 6th grade that she graduated? Wayward was she?

I don't know how much Frank knows, but I am more than willing to discuss facts and name names. The question is what is recognized as a fact? A recorded phone conversation with Ray Johnson, Warren's voice on a cassette, emails between agencies, copyrighted text, an affidavit, depositions from former court cases. How about the court records of the sexual abuse trial in the early 1990's, would you atleast accept the testimony of those that were in the faith at the time? Proof requires an open mind and to avoid using the "B" word, no amount of truth will change the mind of someone who refuses to hear it.

I think I could dig up a copy of the depositions and affidavits. Does abuse exist in the outside world, absolutely yes! The defense is always it occures outside the group as well, but the argument is both need oversight and often there is denial both in and out of religios based societies. I have no illusions, both need to be watched carefully, but neither can be excused. There were good families and there were several like that of Jack Cooke and I can name those too if need be.

MIB

Anyone who is abusing children needs to be prosecuted to the extent of the law. I am not saying my community is being discriminated against. I am trying to stop the discrimination.

MIB, I did find out who Kenyon Blackmore is. From what my father said, he is in hiding in South America, barred from entering Canada or US. I don't know what name Lorraine goes by. Couldn't care less. It is perfectly legal in Canada for a woman to keep her last name when she gets married anyway, so why is it so important to you? As to whether or not you even know what you are talking about, maybe you should email me a copy of you family tree document. I would be intrested to see just how accurate of an investigator you are.

MIB, there is something you just don't seem to be getting. I really don't know all the little details about everyone else in the community. Do you know all about every one in yours? (Actually you probably do. You seem like the type of person who digs through your neighbours garbage and peeps through their windows, trying to find out there every private detail.) I can tell you that Teresa did flirt with the man she married for several months before the got married. Also, I think they were only two years or so apart in age.

Since the Canadian government commission a investigation last year via the RCMP and since Idaho is bringing a committee together to address alligations, that is why there is interest now. I was the FOR KIDS SAKE rep. for Utah & Arizona and I was threatened and lied to over the past 5 years. Such causes an intense interest to not be caught off guard. Then when I am still addressing the issue with those that ran, those who want to run and those like Kenyon's other daughters still being abused, my job is not over by any means.

The Idaho Attorney General's office contacted me and I said my mind was not made up. I know the history of the past and I know Winston has claimed sweeping changes, but research might determine what goes into the report that was solicited from me. You know Nichole and Wynn Jessop, I began this with Nichole when she was 16. Her mother was my client. I had dealings with the RCMP in Creston, Crambrook & Ottawa. Because I have had more exposure than many to this issue as a gentile so to speak, some in government want my opinion.

So this blogg of sorts and the Texas Polygamy Blogg that you also post on, allow me to gauge changes, if they have occured. Its not you, just those in general. The abuses were real and I can detail them here or to the RCMP. Since there is a new image being sold, its only natural that those agencies in contact with me would want to know if the changes are real or just window dressing! Not being straight is fine, that too tells a story. And yes I have been known to study Garbology!

MIB

The creepiest thing I've seen published was the picture of Blackmore in a classroom with a bunch of young girls. You think he might be "grooming" them as future wives?

When there were allegations of abuse in residential schools, people didn't want to believe it because the possibility was so horrible. Everyone was more than happy to take the word of the religious institutions that ran them that it wasn't happening. In the end, those that turned their backs on those First Nations children should be ashamed. In our schools now, many First Nations children cannot even get their grandparents to walk through the front doors of their school.

Bountiful must be watched and monitored closely. In my opinion, their traditions and religious culture easily foster, in the very least, the perception of systematic abuse. Will we be looking back 40 years from now wondering why no one did anything? I hope not. I am glad that they are getting more and more attention. If there is nothing wrong going on there then they should prove it.

To Bountiful Boredom (er, Mormon)- multiple partners? I wish... wow, are you all so humourless? Stinger sounds like he may have a bit of a sense of humour, atleast. And from what I gather, your "community" is not so much about family values as controlling young females' lives.

Fii

Stinger has a great sense of humor, he has true humor on the Texas Polygamy Blog. Its quick witted stuff.

My only issue with Stinger is in getting straight forward answers and honest ones. To say Winston's wives in numbers are largely exagerated, with the scriptures of the FLDS refering to 3 and 7 connected wives, is part of the humor. If he only had 7 which Stinger down played, that would not be to shocking. The number is considerably higher.

The issue per this open house and a new regime that says 18 is a better age to marry, with education through the 12th grade needs to be validated. If honesty is what is on trial, then answering even a shocking question to those asking, becomes a gauge of honesty to the new rules being stated.

What is more consuming for the faithful is when, where and how, will Winston replace Warren as the officiator of spiritual weddings. The leader or prophet holds the keys to marriage and for those awaiting a second wife since spliting with Warren's group, are looking to their new leader to officiate this sacred function. The marriages have already begun absent now of Warren's control, but I have not heard the change in leadership being official yet?

As for me any one who digs through trash cans, has to find humor in something.

If its time for me to disengage and leave the blog, let me know. I want answers along with every one else, but will check those answers with my red pencil, if I find the answers inaccurate. My spelling? I'd get an "F" and lots of red marks, no one is perfect....

MIB

Hey MIB who is this Kenyan Blackmore? If it is the fellow more commonly known as Ken Blackmore, What does he have to do with us people in Bountiful? Is it because he has the last name of Blackmore? Pete was never a part of us. Ken came around for a short time in the 60's but he was just a swindler. He swindled a few people in the Creston area, then he left. Leaving Ray with alot of debts to clear up. He moved on to a group of Lebarons in Mexico. After taking them for what he could get, they ran him out. Last thing heard about him, was that he was deported from Mexico. I don't think he is welcome in U.S. or Canada so he probably went further South

I am a teen member of bountiful and I know very well what happens here. We have our choices and we are not forced to be married off to old men. I am 14 and am not getting married for yet some time. I go to a public school in Creston, The Creston Homelinks School. I am planning on going to college to become a cop. I really think that people should talk to members of bountiful instead of everybody else. We know about us more than anybody else. I know most people don't want to hear the truth they just want to hear things that will make a good story. We are just people and we need to be treated like it.

YOung girls in the past have indeed marrird at the age of 15 but not many and they were not forced into it. Things are constantly changing everywhere, including bountiful. The Past is gone and we cannot change it. We are happy with what we are doing and not all girls are married to old men. There are young men here to ya know and we all have our choices and are not supposed to marry someone that we dont want to.

Angel13

If its no secret and the lifestyle is to be accepted, is there a problem in asking how many wives the leader has? I know the answer, but I want to see why the public is denied such answers. The concern or reality outside of Bountiful is the potential abuse of power, the same issue as is recognized with the former leader in Warren Jeffs. The doctrine of 3 to or 7 connected wives, was not followed by Warren or Winston, the numbers far exheed the scripture's. I have a copy of "In Light and Truth" here in front of me and with the FLDS text, those in control have modified the teachings.

As another blogger pointed out, any where else, when a superintendent, principal or teacher grooms his student to eventual wed and bed, he gets arrested and prosecuted under "Violation of Trust". In a private school or one funded by government the law applies. Its not an issue of consenting adults, but an abuse of power over children. Being raised to accept this as normal does not make it correct or legal. In great countries you lobby to change the law first, but here laws were broken and in the reverse, people want laws changed inspite of knowing they were violating such in the first place. Your former prophet in Rulon Jeffs admits in church text that the group was violating the law. Rulon made a lack of conviction by local government into the hand of god protecting his chosen people. By doing nothing, the US & Canadian governments supported a self fulfilling prophesy.

Winston has over 100 children that are supported in a socialize government, why should others support this many children? In the US I have 3 children, I work at home and still lack time I would like to dedicate to them. Having 100 plus children is mindless, plus being also illegal, it becomes extorsion to other hard working Americans who have obeyed and played by the rules of the land. Rewarding those who break the law, is unamerican! What it is in Canada is unclear?

At age 14 have you read the theology books published by the FLDS and do you know and understand right from wrong under the law?

Other crimes have existed aswell and will be addressed. Several in the states were cheated out of land and assets under a little known business enterprise called "The National Land Corp." Some of the land beneath Bountiful is included in this dispute. In your country land deeds are like a pink slip on a car in our state. You sign off the deed in the transfer of ownership. Harold Wooley Blackmore was one of those swindled and he spent much of his life fighting for his justice. I have seen the file and have discussed it with authorities in Canada. If all of this was about religion alone, guys with 3 wives and women making their own choices who were over 18, few would care!

A good example might be Rulon Jeffs deposition in 1989. The court record has a legal affidavit of the man, the seer and prophet swearing to tell the truth, signed and notorized in his hand writing. To the world outside the document is the truth as Rulon knew it. He in detail discribed the financial structure and solventcy of his holdings, of the UEP, Majestic Trust and all businesses under his control. When shared most of the faithful denied much of what Rulon had stated, until they were told to read the document. The truth as the faithful knew it was one thing, but that one thing changed with the unchallenged word of the prophet. Some prefered to believe it all a forgery, because that was more conforting than this new truth.

The reality is any ones truth is what they know and what they believe. Exposed to more facts, that truth and knowledge changes. Some people can face the truth, like accepting Warren was not there leader and moving on, that had to be a huge jump!

So inregard to coming to those of Bountiful to ask for info as Angel has suggested is my very intent! Asking how many wives Winston has is now directed at Angel, taking her at her word. But if I ask and its a question no one wants to answer, then the truth or reality of it, can only be based on the limits applied to the distribution of truth. Lack of information inside or outside of Bountiful does the same thing. Good judgement needs facts and denied the facts, the conclusions become flawed!

Regarding Ken or Kenyon, he believes like the Kingston's in the devine seed, where by to keep the bloodlines pure you mary your own children. He's a Canadian citizen and yes the US would arrest him if he tried to live in the US. But, he communicates with family and those family members believe blood loyalty is stronger than the law. No longer influenced by Bountiful, but his whereabouts is known by family. He is a good example of why people outside of religion should provide oversight of it.

MIB

Angel13

Granted Bountiful is nothing like Colorado City, Hildale, El Dorado's temple site, etc. but until very recently Bountiful was a mirror of the theology taught below. Winston's web site admits the underage issue of the past and in more details than the Associate Press, the story of Vanesa Rohbock and tells of Warren's edict of her sins. That past is not so far in the rear view mirror and in going public on April 19, scrutny became invited. The introduction of the use of computers, the internet and blogs like this allow for such dialog now and learning is what we all want.

Because we do not agree or see the issue differently is not a rejection, but rather a learning curve. Some know little of your culture, others to much, if PR was intended. I prefer to be open and not anonymous, infact I favor emails that have no audience, but in seeking the truth you say you want available, that truth will include both delicate and personal questions. If you believe its only about a good story, we can easily take it away from this blog and make the exchanges private.

Because of what Warren has created in extremes, the public at large is more interested and concerned of whom lives next to them and wonders if a belief that is different will effect them. In El Dorado Texas the lie that it was to be a Hunting Retreat, caused fear and frustration because the lie served to keep secrets.

I read a newspaper that interviewed someone in Bonners Ferry who said he was the only fundametalist in the county. The article interviewed the leader next, who said there were 30-40 in Boundary County and this was followed by a well known disadent who claimed more. To those in Idaho what are they to believe in the statement of only one FLDS lives in a county that has posted messages by Winston in his newsletter, to a undefined following. The assumption is there are secrets and reasons to keep such information suppressed. After the Texas expansion, its got to make people in Idaho abit nervous, maybe without reason, but the quote came from someone who knew the numbers!

To gain trust and understanding, the exchanges need to be straight forward and honest and with knowledge people will choose to trust or not. If questions are ignored or side stepped, especially infront of an audience, some will wonder whether this is more about a PR spin, than a two way exchange.

I have a daughter 14 and 16, maybe you and they should be the ones exchanging teen talk.

My concerns need adults willing to answer questions, but if a teenager has the guts to do what others can't or won't I appauld your direct and honest approach.

MIB

MIB
I honestly did not know how many wives Winston has until you asked the question and I then figured it out. He once had 25 wives until four left him and he now has 21.He does not have over 100 children.
I do understand right from wrong under the law and no I do not read the theology books published by FLDS.
I think that people should try looking for some good in our people and not just the bad. There is good and bad in everybody and you need to understand that. WE ARE HUMAN.
All across the world there are hungry children, abused children and far worse crimes then polygamy. Why don't you look into that instead of something as harmless as Polygamy. Not all men of our religion have more then one wife. I only have one mom. The Religion isn't based entirely on Polygamy. I don't want my husband to have more than one wife and we have our choices just like anybody else.
I am willing to answer any questions that people have.

MIB
Now that I told you how many wives Winston has can I ask you a question? How many people have you had sex with?

I didn't read most of your comments except the one brave enough to sign his full name. I'm a former LDS priest (not the breakaway sect). In case no one has mentioned it, a problem for society as a whole if polygamy gets more popular is that there are more polygamous marriages than polyandrous ones. So we have an excess of men running around horny and angry, fighting and raping in the streets and in wars. Korky Day

Angel13

Just one! Married once, still married and only with my wife, I am sure I could be the exception had the question been posed to others. Your next question?

Who is your father?

To answer the question of other issues of child abuses, as polygamy in of itself is not my issue, I am involved in several groups. About a dozen non profits that address child protection, so far....

The WWASP issue that addresses boot camps where children have been abused is another arena that I address. I have a client your age that had her shoulder dislocated at Majestic Ranch in Utah. The 8 such boot camps for troubled youth that have been closed or are under investigation is an arena and issue larger than this. Casa By the Sea was one such school closed last year in Mexico, where Mexican law is usually pretty forgiving. Children sold, women and children traffic'd for exploitation and nearly a dozen seperate issues are those I react to. Sentator Sam Brownback's Victim Trafficing Protection Act of 2000 was timely and a bill I supported.

I came out of Community Youth Gang Services Project based out of the East Los Angeles Probation Dept. and now 20 years later I still serve on related gang and graffiti prevention non profit boards.

Because of real abuses that have occured in close societies, of which not all practise polygamy, I have had a interest here, but only since the year 2000. The Allreds, Kingstons, Gerald Peterson, Fred Collier, FLDS and another couple of dozen groups keep popping up on my radar. An official list generated in the early 1990s had addresses for almost 300 groups in the US that included polygamy as a tenent of their faith. Most have split, merged, quit or relocated, but several dozen still exist today.

Not so far from the FLDS was "Thomas Sliwinski" who settled in Montana not to far from Creston with 2 of his step daughters whom he wed. One in Vance Springs in the West Utah Desert and the other near SLC. They were 13 & 14. You can GOOGLE search his name adding the words polygamy or Montana and learn of "The House of Thomas". Thomas has since fled to Mexico, where he hangs out with another former FLDS member in William Black. William fled a Sheriff stand off in 2003 near Hildale. Authorities are interested in Mr. Black for more than just the child brides he took in the two Stubb sisters. It kind of seems natural that William would of fled to Colonnial LeBaron.

The point is there are 100 or more groups on the radar, some like Warren of a greater concern. My interest personally is not limited to one or a dozen groups. One child at risk, is one to many. The WWASP programs are for troubled and delinquent youth, while they special councilling, they don't need pepper spray, getting beat up, deprived of food, shelter or there bones broken. Human rights apply to many in other issues more complex than closed societies.

MIB

Angel13
You said;

I am a teen member of bountiful and I know very well what happens here. We have our choices and we are not forced to be married off to old men. I am 14 and am not getting married for yet some time. I go to a public school in Creston, The Creston Homelinks School. I am planning on going to college to become a cop.

Angel
If you become a cop as you mentioned, which laws will you enforce? As bigamy and polygamy are technically against the law, would you enforce such laws or only those laws that do not oppose your religion? Police Officers Roy Potter of Murray Utah Police Dept. and Officer Rodney Holm of Colorado City were both polygamist and law enforcement officers living their religion, but also violating their oath of office. The complaints of the 22 families which were FLDS in Stubbs vs. Jeffs in that class action between 1987 to 1998 stated and believed that law enforcement in Colorado City and Hildale was selective at best. The results of the split was of course Centennial Park just down the road from Colorado City. In Rodneys case and now Sam Roundy and Vance Barlow under investigation, these officers have stated that they will not violate their religion, which becomes selective enforcement.

In the Lenore Holm case, criminal complaints to the local police went ignored because a mothers opinion opposed a teaching that had intended to marry Nichole originally when she was 15. This resulted in a Forceable Detainer to evict. That went to court on August 22nd of 2000 and UEP trustee Truman Barlow took the stand to testify that the parents were out of harmony with the church doctrine. Under the law the parents were compelled to violate state law in order to remain in good standing with the tenent that polygamy was required. Had the Colorado City/Hildale Police enforced the laws of extorsion, the eviction case might of never made it to court.

The class action of Stubbs vs Jeffs ended with the protection of the victim home builders under "unjust enrichment", but that did not stop the later evictions. While polygamy may be debateable, having law enforcement who believe in it, creates a huge conflict, one that forces a choice between belief and the law. Taking status as a peace officer requires a "oath of office" and those who enter the field knowing there are laws they will not enforce, make that oath less than honorable.

Its a tough question at age 14, but knowing the job requires an oath of office, how would you address your belief verses the laws you are hired to uphold?

MIB

"My only issue with Stinger is in getting straight forward answers and honest ones. To say Winston's wives in numbers are largely exagerated, with the scriptures of the FLDS refering to 3 and 7 connected wives, is part of the humor. If he only had 7 which Stinger down played, that would not be to shocking. The number is considerably higher." MIB

Dude, what do you mean you can't get honest answers from me? Everything I have told you has been the truth. If I didn't know something, I have told you so. Or is that where you think I am lying? I never gave you any number on how many wives Winston has. I simply told you all the women with him at the polygamy summit in Saint George were not married to him. Please read my posts all the way through. I am sorry if your family tree, which I think is probably largely made up, is not squaring up with the things we are telling you. If you have any real questions I will be glad to answer them. I am not up on the latest Bountiful gossip though. I make it a point not to worry about other peoples lives.

Korky Day

Are you saying the math does not add up? Human statistics show that the spread between men and women is very close. We usually see it as pretty close to a 1 to 1 ratio. Its an interesting question of what if we all accepted the lifestyle and practised it. We of course would not be accepted as each group seems to select their prophet as "The One Mighty and Strong" who chose who will marry, when and to whom, officiating the ceremony. The many groups would change little, but on a broader landscape there would be a shortage of available mates.

I think those with money and power would get the most and there would certainly be have nots!

MIB

MIB, once again you never read a post all the way through. You might have noticed that Angel said she didn't want to live polygamy. And maybe it won't be illegal by the time she becomes a cop.

Stinger: Son, I'm heading on for 67 years old, and I'm too old to bother with sophomoric exchanges of boy-man witticisms. I was raised in a fundamentalist playpen. I left it before age nineteen and I am still influenced by things I do not believe yet still fear. (ohmigawd, what if they're right?!).

Much later on in life I became a legally ordained minister. I am , legally, Reverand Anne Cameron , ordained by the Church of the Gospel Ministry, Chula Vista, California.

Lest anyone be impressed, know it cost me three bucks from the back of the National Enquirer. But it is legal. It is as legal as the credentials of the Pope, or of any other ordained minister in this or any other country.

I have spent a lifetime researching religions. I know there is , in many sects, schisms, cults, congregations, denominations and what have you's the principle of Sanctified Falsehood.

Sanctified Falsehood is based on a strong belief that a believer must ALWAYS be fully truthful to another believer. A non-believer, however, has not accepted THE Truth so would not recognize, acknowledge, accept, or even understand truth. Therefore don't burden the poor sap, lie your head off if you want, especially if it will convert him to your way of thinking and believing.

You say you have only one wife and will never have a second. Of course not, son. Legally you are only allowed one wife at a time. Any other will merely be a mistress or concubine. A long term shack-up.

I am not going to go point by point, post by post but I suspect and intuit that much of what you replied was Sanctified Falsehood.

Of course you know where your uncle is. Of course you know he is your uncle. Of course you know his address, and of course he received and probably still receives help of a financial nature from members of the family.

Winston seems to see himself as some kind of suave expert on women. The guy is a goof. His leering and salacious remarks are an insult to all his wives, all his daughters, all women. He is a slavering fucker. You wrote several times of castration for those who sexually abuse children. Start with Winston. He's a puke. He comes from a long line of pukes.

It is interesting that suddenly, in front of a camera, someone produces a number of teen-aged girls dressed like present-day teen-aged girls.

Usually they are dressed as if they just stepped off the wagon train. The men, however, are not held to such modest garb. Why old Win seems to doll himself up in some pretty snazzy suits, none of which look as if they were sewn at home by his handmaidens.

Now I come to something which sticks sideways in my craw. Winston's burgeoning number of kids. Seventy-five, eighty, however many he has. Many of his wives work out "in town" and turn their pay over to "the family". Many others collect welfare. Even though Win has, what, his own trucking company, his own cement company...he's going okay for a guy who rambles on about communal living...how many other "husbands" have "wives" who collect welfare for the illegitimate kids? Well, actually, I don't believe in bastard kids, just bastard parents.

I don't appreciate having no choice but to have my taxes go to subsidize the situation in Bountiful. If a man such as yourself wants two or three or four wives, and IF he can find mature adult women willing to join with him, fine, fuck until your nose bleeds, it's no skin off my Scots arse. But be prepared to be the ones who support those kids financially. Don't spawn entire litters and then expect me to just shrug and hand you welfare checques every month.

Please do not respond with more Sanctified Falsehoods. You manage only to make yourself sound immature and foolish and surely that is not your intent.

When a fifteen year old girl gives birth you only have to do the arithmetic. She was fourteen when she got pregnant. That means someone was fucking her. And that, son, is abuse.

You do not want your kids in public school because you say there is one chance in ten they might be transgressed against by a staff member. Sweetheart, there is a one hundred per cent chance every daughter you have will be fucked, fucked up, fucked over and fucked to a fine fare thee well by the men with whom you meet, with whom you worship, with whom you pray.

If you are honest and sincere about being ready to castrate the ones who sexually abuse and misuse children, get your straight razor ready. Let me know where to meet with you. I'll help you. You hold'em down and I'll slice the fuckers. I think we should take a big brownbag lunch and a couple of thermoses of coffee because we're going to be slicing and dicing for a loooooong time. Then the congregation in Bountiful will surely "make a joyfull noise unto the Lord" because nearly all the men will be singing soprano.

May the Lord bless you and shine His light upon you and may you walk in righteousness all the days of your life.

Stinger

Above I mentioned the 3 and 7 connected wives that is spoke of in the sermons and text of Leroy Johnson and Rulon Jeffs. Are you familiar with these books and these passages?

When I stated that this existed, your comment was that the numbers were largely exagerated. I thought the implication of 7 being exageration was not so per Angels response above which she placed at 21 wives. That figure is close to what I believe, but after Jane left and afew others following Warren's edict that number is entirely posible.

I am just trying to understand statements based on accuracy. The April 19th gig admitted those girls that were married under age placing blame on Warren. Its a matter of dates thing. Winston did the CBC TV Fifth Estate documentary "The Bishop of Bountiful" after leaving Warren's camp. In the documentary the question of younger brides was posed and denied. Why was there a need to deny it in the TV documentary, then go public with it last week? The threat from Warren had already been lifted in the TV filming period!

Another problem, not with you, but Winston, was his January 30th newsletter where he addresses Vanessa's plight. The story in SHARE THE LIGHT has Vanessa at risk and under some threat from Warren. I agree with this version, but when it was reported as it was occuring, the RCMP interviewed Winston and the threat at the time that went to the press was that Vanessa was not under any threat and that "blood atonement" was never taught. Since the RCMP conducted the interview and did their own release to the media, I find a variation between what law enforcement was told and what now appears in the January issue of the newsletter.

The question of blood atonement was in the theogoly text and in Warren's cassettes that went public just 2 weeks ago.

What I am trying to do is be straight forward and bluntly honest about my concerns. I wanted to have such dialog with someone else up there with a computer, but we were never able to address what was known verses what I was being told. With this blog there is an advantage in knowing concerns that are likely shared concerns by other interested parties.

If I have offended you, you have my apology, but I am still interested in pursuing information. Maybe there is someone else better suited to answer my questions, you are welcome to forward them.

MIB

Stinger

I liked Angels honesty and I replied honest to her question. Its not personal but I believe she can answer the question if she choose to. Being a girl doesn't exclude her ability to have a response opinion, even if I am to be slapped!

MIB

anne cameron

Wow! Your french, you sound like a woman I already know, are you really in Chula Vista? I'm about 120 miles North of you if so.

MIB

No, I don't LIVE in Amerikkka, don't visit it, either. It would seem, however, that my "boycot" has gone unnoticed down there. Oh well. Sigh...

I live in Tahsis, on the west coast of Vancouver Island.

MIB
My dad is Dan Blackmore.
What do you want to happen to all the families who are already plural? Do you want them to be broken up and ruined? They are happy and it would only make them unhappy if people tore them apart. Trust me I know.
By the time I become a cop polygamy may be legalized, I mean gay marriages are and that is so wrong in my opinion.
I don't even read all of your big long things you write because they are too big and boring. It would be easier if you wrote shorter questions for me to answer...

Anne, that was fabulous. Angel, good luck being a cop; good profession- I know a couple female cops and they are tough shit-kickers. Sure you will be too. One more question- why do you thing gay marriage is so wrong? Do you have gay friends? Where did you learn it was wrong? (Well, personally I think the entire institute of marriage should be illegal; it's a huge farce for the most part... but hey). And I meant to ask yesterday in response to Bountiful Boredom- please define "FAMILY VALUES", and why those can only, to some, be achieved through female-male monogomous relationships, and in the case of Bountiful-ites, female-female-female-female-female-female (okay you get my point)-male (only one now) relationships. Cheers.

Fii, why ask a young girl to define my remarks? My statement was family Unit. I myself do have a very good friend and business associate who is openly gay. I just state that a family of several men and one women could hardly be classed as a family unit. Unless you wanted to start a new reality TV show called "who is my daddy". Is it father #1 the blonde haired blue eyed lawyer. or #2 the black curley haired, brown eyed doctor, or maybe #3 the fruit picker with the dreadlocks and red eyes? I think over in Vancouver, along East Hastings Street, you could find a church that would allow you the association of several men, with no marriage committments. Who knows, they might even pay you to be a member. Sorry to pick on you Fii but I felt funny after you chastized me for not having any humor in my previous blog.

Fii
Why do you think polygamy is so wrong? Do you know what it is like to be in a polygamous family?
Nobody told me that gay marriages were wrong I decided that by myself. You think Polygamy is wrong and I think gay marriages are wrong. No I do not have any gay friends.

Jay, I'm sorry. Maybe I was the one not correctly reading the posts. When I said a number of wives was exaggerated, I was referring to the amount you said Winston had with him at Saint George. I now know that there are people way more bias than you. At least you ask questions rather than completely basing your judgement on what you read. To the best of my knowledge I have been telling you the truth, and it hasn't been "sanctified falsehood".

Anne, old paint, you seem to have your panties in a twist. Maybe try to get that fixed before you die of old age. You might be able to go out with a smile on your face.

The State has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. If there is child abuse deal with it. If there is kidnapping charge the guilty
Anytime people abuse or have things done against thier will we have ways to deal with it. But, what adults do with free will is a whole other story and really not our business.

Now,now, Stinger, son, no need to get narky.Just bring up your children in the way in which they are to grow and when they are old they will not depart from it.

I would suggest the reason people are as outraged as they are has to do with exactly what Tom has written so well. There should have been measures taken long ago to deal with child abuse and with the passing of underage girls across the border... nothing was done, and that is wrong.

What adults do from free will doesn't really concern me. At the same time I do not want to subsidize the many plural couplings of a nerd like Winston. I can, however, understand why his wives don't mind being part of a breeding pack...the more women there are the less time each has to spend with Studdly!

Bountiful Moron- I asked Angel to define "family values" because I found her a bit more interesting than you- sorry. So you go ahead and define them (in more detail please, simply stating "family unit" isn't enough). You said it's not all about sex (thus not all about procreating), yet from your last post I gather that the impregnating/carrying child/giving birth part is what you are focusing on to define "family unit". You say otherwise children would not know who there fathers are- well of course they would; we have the technology these days; little secret for you. Don't worry about "picking on me", I can handle that. Now this bit about Hastings and allusion to prostitution is a bit disturbing too. A man has sex with several women and is some kind of King of the FAMILY UNIT and pillar of an entire society and religious sect, but a woman who does the same is a slut/whore/prostitute (not your words, I know, but the implication is there). This kind of thing has always bothered me and always will. It's the reason ladies of the street are treated like dirt and slaughtered and the world stands by and doesn't give a damn. Yet as Anne points out, our gov't subsidizes the multiple children of a male. My dictionary defines prostitution as "devote one's honour, talents, person, to base purposes" Hmmm, pretty general. As far as I'm concerned impregnating dozens of women is pretty base. Therefore buddy leader of your "religion" is a prostitute. I understand it's an odd line of reasoning to follow- you still haven't answered my question "What defines a family unti?"

Angel- I'll tell you why I think polygamy is wrong- for one thing, we don't need a whole lot more people in the world; we're stretching it as it is. There are millions of orphaned children and millions more living in destitution while your "religion" allows for one man to impregnate women like they are animals (yes, that's how I see it) while the rest of us subsidize this practice. I undertand not everyone "takes" more than one wife. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing polygamy was invented by men to justifiably "spread the seed" (sounds like something Coyote would say), as much as possible, in much the same way my male dog has a desire to piss on every tree in the city of Vancouver. Territory, power, control, whatever you call it. What is the purpose? Your people want children to love and cherish and raise? Happy, happy families with loads of apple-cheeked kids? Like I said, lots of hurting children in the world who I would rather subsidize than Winston's (or whoever's) kids. I'm not even touching the whole "marrying off the 15 yr old girls/abuse" part of it, as I really don't know enough about that. No, I don't know what it's like to be in a polygomous family; do you? Now you tell me why you think gay couplings (let's leave marriage out of it) is wrong; or are gay couplings ok, but not marriage?

Angel 13
As a citizen of Creston I attended the Polygamy Summit. I wrote down all the questions asked, and Winston's answers. I thought he evaded the answers and was very vague. I also listened to a young girl outside telling reporters she felt the people of Creston hated her. Maybe this girl was you. There are many of us who do not hate the people of Bountiful.We are concerned that there is abuse happening. We do not want to destroy happy families. It is true there is abuse outside Bountiful. My children and I are in fact abuse survivors. I ended my relationship because my husband was abusing my children. I understand the pain involved in abuse. No child should have to suffer abuse. No child should have to keep it a secret. If your immediate family does not suffer from this problem, I am happy for you. If in fact you are allowed to have free choice of a marriage partner, I am again happy for you. Not everyone has a free choice and is happy.I also have children your age who Home school. Maybe some day we can meet and be friends.

Fii, yes I do know what it's like to live in polygamous families becauese I have many friends who do and I know how it is.
Quest for truth,
Yes I was that girl outside talking to the reporters and that is me and some of my friends in that picture at the top of the page.

Angel 13
I thought it was you,I liked listening to you, You have spunk and I personally like that.I have been reading a lot of books on Polygamy, and there are a lot of people claiming to be in abusive situations. They say that in order to get to heaven, they must do what the prophet says. In the Bible, it says there is only one mediator between God and Man and that it is Jesus Christ.In the Bible Jesus also says " I am the way, the Truth and the Life; No man comes to the Father but by Me" He doesn't say we need a husband or any other man to get us in to Heaven.What do you think?

Angel, re: your friends from polygamous families- are all their mothers truly happy and satisified and feel loved by a man who sleeps with other "wives"? That happens outside polygamous families too, Angel; it's called cheating on your spouse/partner with a mistress/lover. It causes a great deal of pain to everyone involved. I find it hard to believe that when it happens under the guise of religion the same feelings of neglect and betrayal aren't there. Of course I was being facetious in earlier comments asking if I could have 5 husbands (I don't even want one husband rright now), but I guess I believe (cynical ol' me, can't believe I'm admitting this), that in the end every woman and man wants to be loved by someone who loves and cherishes them most of all- just them; yes, I am promoting monogamy!! ME! Haha... you still haven't answered my question about why you think gay marriage/partnerships are wrong.

Of course all of this is hypothetical unless you believe in a moral God who has communicated with man.

wow! is that scary? that is the premise of all morality isn't it. otherwise it's just what I think and what you think and there is no real objective standard.
The premise of Christianity is that there is a moral God and we are subject to Him as His created beings. A secondary premise is that we have all screwed up and are separated from Him. And thirdly that through the universal reclamation of humanity acheived through Jesus perfect life, death and resurrection we all have the opportunity to be reunited to God and be declared moral( right with God, Righteous). And fourthly that by the gift of His Life in us we will become good practically. what's so scary about that?

Quest for truth,
I think anyone can get to heaven if they try, it is not all about marriage.
Fii,
Yes, my friends that have more than one mom are happy and so are their mom's. If they didn't want to be in a plural relationship then they don't have to be it is there choice and they are happy with the choices they make.

Angel,
So you do not believe that a woman can only enter heaven if her husband calls her on resurection morning? This is what I have been told all Mormans mainstream or otherwise believe.

Quest for truth
No i do not believe that.

Angel,
So do you defend Polygamy because it is your personal belief, or because it is your family and friends belief?

Quest for truth,
I defend polygamy because it is my family's and some of my friend's belief.

Angel,
Fair enough.Since you wear jeans and T-shirts, Do you get a lot of criticism from your family and friends? I know that it is uncomman for people from Bountiful to dress that way. Don't think that I think this is an issue, I'm just curious.

Hey Angel,
this is quite a conversation. I am also curious,what grade are you in and how old are you? I am not sure how you feel about answering questions. My question is about breaking the law. How do you feel about the fact that polygamy is against the law and what are you prepared to do to change the law?

Let's get this straight. Up top there is a picture of five teenaged girls. In the VanSun recently there was a picture of five primary school children - three girls two boys. Which boy will be 'turfed' from the community if not both? After all when the 'Harem assemblers' have first dibs on the females of the community and only the most favoured son ever gets to assemble a 'Harem'just what justifies this perverse cult anyway?

Burgess, You might need to run that one by us again. It didn't make a whole hell of a lotta' sense.

there does seem to be a lot of issues involved as spinoffs of polygamy but there are a lot of issues involved with spinoffs from materialism.
Morality is not only a Mormon delemma. We are all on the hook if there is a morality at all.

Quest for truth,
My family and friends do not criticize the way I dress, they support me in my decisions and my friends dress the same as me. I do get criticsm from the people in Warren's Church and they stare at me like I'm a hippy or something.
hippygirl,
I am 14 years old and am in 8th grade. I am not prepared to do anything to change the law about polygamy because I don't practice it and I am only trying to defend the people that do.

Angel 13,
I admire your independence, you remind me of myself at your age, and at my age still. I wonder what you would do if you thought a child was being abused by other children? Do you learn in school what abuse is? Not just sexual, but mental abuse and other kinds? Some forms of abuse are hard to understand. As I grow older I see some of the stuff I grew up with and now have a different view on things. I know that comes with maturity. I am getting off track, sorry. I do wonder what your actions would be if you found out a child was being abused by another person, adult or another child? What kind of courses do you take in school that would educate you on this kind of thing?

Angel,
Do you think everyone is free to make thier own decisions, and still be treated respectfully? Or are you one of the lucky ones?

hippygirl,
It depends on what kind of abuse. I would try to help anybody in any way that I could if I found out they were being abused. I go to normal school and take normal courses just like everybody else. I do not go to Mormon Hills School or Bountiful School.
Quest for truth,
I think that most people do have freedom to make their own choices. I'm not quite sure about the people in Warren's church though. I think most of them are just too brainwashashed.

Angel 13
I realize you go to normal school, but what do they teach about abuse? I have no kids in school so I don't know. I also know the story about one of the young girls that Winston married, cried after the ceremony and asked if she had just got married. Doesn't sound much like free choice to me. I also wonder why you call the people in Warren's church brainwashed when your whole community followed that church up until just a couple of years ago. I really do wonder how one day Warren is the leader then the next he is not. Doesn't it make you think this is all about control over other people and nothing to do with religion at all? If you look at the history of the FLDS breaking away and forming different factions, it is so confusing to me that anyone would not think this is all about controlling people. All the leaders say the same thing, "follow me I am the chosen one". Look into your soul and follow your heart, it knows the truth. When you feel something is not quite right....that is god speaking to you. He does not have to speak through anyone else, you are worthy of his attention all on your own.

All you who are so determined to see the law of polygamy upheld, better start petitioning the Catholic church. The Catholics are the largest polygamous organization on the face of the earth. The Catholics have made our Lord Jesus Christ into a polygamist. Think of all the millions of Nuns over the last century alone who have made vows to be the wives of Jesus.

Angel,
I think you are honest, and I am enjoying talking with you.It is confusing to me as well that up until a couple years ago, the people in Bountiful were all one group. Does that mean that the people who chose to follow Warren were more brainwashed than the ones who did not? I am trying to stick with our conversation,as I am not on here to argue with anyone. I don't believe that I am excused from wrong doing, just because someone else is doing something that is wrong too. I like talking with you because I feel we can learn from each other. If at anytime I ask something that offends you, just let me know.

Angel.

I didn't mean to upset you. Did you READ my message? You didn't answer anything. Also, I don't like the Catholic religion. That is not what I believe in. Also the courts are prosecuting Catholic priests for their abuses, unfortanetly it took so long that there are many victims. I guess I just am not fond of organized religion, I think it forces its beliefs on its followers. I still say follow your heart, that is where god speaks to you.

Catholic nuns take a vow of chastity. They do not and never will have sex with Jesus. They do not as the Mormon church teaches Mary did have sex with any spiritual being. Jesus said in heaven "they neither marry nor are given in marriage." PS I am not a Catholic. And throwing dirt does not clarify the issues. If you believe polygamy is fine then tell us why and that is enough. If someone doesn't agree they can also say why and that is enough.

Hey does anyone want to be "Bountiful Mormon" is a man?

hippygirl,
Oh no I was not offended I just couldn't write in the last few days because I was partying in Lethbridge with my friends. In school we have a subject called career and personal planning, (CAPP) I am kind of behind in it but it is the subject that teaches about abuse and I haven't quite got to that part yet. I have never heard the story about the girl Winston married that cried and asked if she just got married, maybe it is just something someone made up or maybe it is true. That I do not know.
Our church never did follow Warren, he wasn't our prophet. Rulon Jeffs was our prophet and when he died Warren started thinking he was such a grand man so he decided he was the prophet and that is when he started leading all the people in a different direction then what they were taught before. Winston still teaches the same thing that he always has and he says we don't need to believe in Winston or Warren, we need to believe in God and that is what I believe. I know that I must follow my heart and do what my heart tells me to I'm not just gonna let some man run my beliefs for me.
Does that answer your question?

Angel,
I have heard that the Mormans believe that the negroes are cursed by God. I have heard that they believe they are from the devil. I listened to a tape of Warren Jeffs saying that Hams wife was a negro and representative for Satan. The Bible doesn't uphold this teaching. In the Bible,Peter says,"God is no respector of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him."Acts 10:34&35. What do you think about this?I know you don't follow Warren, but is this what you are taught?http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4627871

Quest for truth,
I was never in my life taught that negroes are cursed by god or that they are from the devil. I have always been taught to love everybody and that everybody is equal no matter what color of skin they have.

Quest for truth, if you go to our website at sharethelight.ca you can see what we believe.
It is quite nice to see that there is some one who is willing to actually talk to one of the girls from Bountiful, instead of just sticking the nose up in the air and mumbling something about them brainwashed "pligs", can't believe a word they say.

Angel,
I am glad to hear that this is not what you have been taught.Racism is one of the things I personally am concerned about.If Warren Jeffs is teaching this, then there may be some people in Bountiful who believe it. Is this not something to be concerned about?

Stinger,
Thankyou for your confidence in me. I do believe that there are a lot of people willing to talk to people in Bountiful. Over the years, we have been given the impression that we were to keep our distance. I personally believe that God loves the people of Bountiful as he loves me.

Nice convo, guys; just checked back in... just one thing... God is a woman (and I was raised Roman Catholic but I figured that out long ago :) Have a good weekend, all!!

Angel13(Cindi)
Why don't you Believe in polygamy? Whatz wrong with it?
jmp.

All you guys out there what is wrong with polygamy??? At least the men take care of all their wives and children.

Cinderella, I did'nt mean to throw dirt on anyone, by my comment on the Catholics. I have always had the greatest of respect for Pope John Paul. I only meant to make a comparrison to show that other religeons have different beliefs as well as the Mormons.Your remark that we need to "tell us why we believe in polygamy and have that be enough." We would love to have that be so. But our critics will not let it be. When the attorney general announced that it would be unconstitutional to charge us, then the opposition came up with all these stories of abuse, smuggling lack of education etc. In all these accusations, they cannot come up with one single name of a person who might be guilty.

I have no respect for an institution that prevents the use of birth control in countries where millions are dying from Aids and millions of children are orphaned, where people (mostly women) are kept in ignorance and fear because of the twisted idealogy of a bunch of control freaks. Organized religion is for the weak of mind and heart. I was a little girl of seven, sitting in an ornately decorated church with my mother on one side of me dutifully reciting the rosary and my father nodding off on my other side :0; I was gazing up at stained glass windows (I vividly recall reflecting on life and "religion" while staring up at those colourful angels) when I came to this conclusion. I was very young; but I knew.

Quest for truth,
If you read a few of the other posts, the one by anne cameron in particular, you will get an idea about why most of the people from Bountiful don't really want to get into a discussion with anyone from the "outside". Anytime we say we enjoy our life we are described as being brainwashed. We are told that we abuse our children, even though no one will ever bother to check if this is the truth. We are told we lack education. The BCTF was invited to come check out our school but the declined. They figured we would show them some false records, maybe have a few brainwashed children stand up and say everything was all right. Granted, our school has only gone too grade 10 for the last few years, but that is from a lack of funding. The BCTF is trying to get the rest of our funding taken away. Most of the high school students are now attending homelinks school in Creston. If the funding were taken away we would have to teach all our children ourselves, with out the government having any influence on what they were taught.
Course this might all be Sanctified Falsehoods. What would a brainwashed high school drop out, who was beat all his life, know about anything?
Anyway, thanks for asking questions before you pass judgement. I also agree with you, God loves us all and his gospel is for all of us. Know matter what our race, colour, or gender preference.

girlsrule,
I didn't say polygamy was wrong I just said that I didn't want to live it.

Bountiful mormon
Are there not young girls coming up from the U.S. having children...then applying for imigration status on humanitarian grounds? I believe there recently has been some refusal of entry to some of these girls. Does that not mean they were smuggled in? They did not apply for entry before arriving in Canada. I believe this constitutes smuggling. Am I wrong? I also think I remember an investigation in the early 1990's and some charges of abuse that were layed, also some that they would not lay because too much time had passed. Seems to me I remember watching on T.V. Aloha and her daughters talking about all the abuse and neglect that was happening. Now they have had a change of "heart"? What's up with that? A nice new home works great for public relations? Another question... I wonder...when the question was aked at the summit about unmarried girls entering college, Nola spoke up that she had entered college before she was married. Is it not true that...yes she did, but when her father found out she had gone to a bar with friends, he pulled her out of school saying she "was becoming to worldly" and she didn't get to go back until she was married and had children so she had that "tie" to the community that makes it difficult to follow your heart. Again I applaud that you have raised the age to 18 for marriage and are encouraging grade 12. I have no problem with educated people chosing this way of life, but let it be their educated decision.

Angel13
I guess that makes sense. Hey you would be a great cop. Are you gonna try to legalize polygamy when you become one?

I don't wish to argue "Hippygirl". I hope you aren't here with a closed mind, as so many critics who have an agenda against us. My son married a girl from Utah, when he brought her into Canada she first applied for a visitors permit, which was granted. She immediatly applied for citizenship while she remained in Canada on her visitors permit. I believe this is how it works for everybody. If you can supply any names of any one who is in the Country illegally. Please inform the authorities, so justice can be done to the guilty one. One bad Indian doesn't make all indians bad. I cannot answer your question about Nola, but I know her father became uncomfortable with allowing his unmarried girls out on their own. Nola's sister was allowed to work for a local dentist, as a receptionist. The Dentist sedused this girl and left his own wife and ran off with her. I don't know why Aloha and her children spoke out against us in the 90's but her new house was provided by her sons who made a committment with their father to see that their mothers needs were taken care of.

I just want to say HAPPY MOTHERS DAY. I love you Mother. Love your daughter, Susie

Hi Hippygirl,
This is Nola here and I would like to set you straight. I DID NOT GO TO A BAR WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE. I was 18 at the time and I believe you have to be 19. You have obviously heard some of the many rumours that went around about me when I was in college. It was largely due to those hurtful rumours that my Father did advise me to leave college at the time. His advice, however, was just that. I could take it or leave it. By the way, Who are you? Do I know you? DO YOU EVEN KNOW ME?

Just to give important information that seems to be missing to all commenting here -- especially persons speaking from Bountiful. This might not make sense to others but if you were my brothers, sisters, cousins, neices, nephews, step-children, or step-grandchildren I would be quite concerned that no one is telling you the truth about your own religion. Ray Blackmore, Dalmon Oler, and Eldon Palmer, all passed away now but members who left the Church to join fundamentalist polygamous teaching did it for a reason.
Uncle Wink only gives part of the teachings about getting into heaven when he posts it on Sharethelight. It is too true according to early mormon teachings which is what he says he believes and you all must agree with if you still live in Bountiful, that all people killed in wars, died at an early age or in child-hood get to go to heaven -- but it is very important to know that once they get there the Mormon God has a plan for salvation for the after-life which includes a very important principle called, "Eternal Progression". According to this law you get to go to the first level of the Celestial Kingdom if you are a member of the church when you die. But if you are not willing to progress and learn eternally, eventually ending up a polygamous or "sealed" whether you are a man or a woman to a man who is alreading in the third degree of Glory and is qualified to be a God, then your blessings will be taken away.
According to the fundamentalist teachings if there is an earthly opportunity for you to find a prophet who has the "power" to perform plural marriages and you don't work as hard as you can to become worthy of this blessing then you will "be damned". This isn't even in Warren Jeffs teachings. This is the whole reason for any fundamentalist mormon polygamist to start with.
I would be very sad and alarmed if Angel and Stinger who seem like very intelligent and maybe even fun people don't get a chance to learn this. If they have a chance to be polygamous and turn down the chance then they are in deep trouble according to the teachings of Uncle Roy who is a former prophet Uncle Wink talks about and all the early prophets in the church.
I would hate anyone to be denied thier birthright just because they didn't know the basic teaching to start with because there has been so much fighting about who the leader is that none of the young people even know their own teachings of polygamy and why their group started in the beginning.
It is also very sad that none of thepeople who will answer questions on the blogs will ever talk about the concerns they have about thier families sucked up by Warren Jeffs. Stinger has said in other places that he is not allowed to talk to his mother and some of his sisters and who knows who else because Warren Jeffs has taken them over. If that isn't abuse-I would like to know what is. Stinger just said earlier that he didn't really know much about what Warren is doing. Well I would make sure I knew what he is doing with my mother and my younger brothers and sisters or maybe i would be a eunuch too. Maybe I would even be talking to people who could help keep them safe. Pretty damn scary.
Also when you ask for people to prove the abuses - all other debate about cases of young children being molested aside - then if you just look at the bare fact of Stingers Uncle having to fight for the right to even visit his three children and having his own sisters and nephews and whoever else testify against him -- and I will bet the stuff they say will be mostly lies is horrible. All because a twisted sick man, Warren Jeffs from the States says so?
Also in any other community in Canada or the United States if Uncle Wink as the Superintendent of the private school even before the split in 2002 took "several very young women" as "wives" then he would be charged for every case of abuse - because that is abuse. Maybe the BCTF is just worried about that and would like to make sure the Mormon Hills School had all the funding they needed to make the school great if there was some assurance that children would be as safe as Angel says.
And here's to knowing your own beliefs so you don't get your one wife taken away because you didn't work harder to get two because it is really hard for some men to have 21 or 10 or 3 if some realize that they have to have at least 3 to get to the Highest Degree of the Celestial Kingdom to be a God of His own earth and keep his wife for the eternities.
If that isn't your goal then you might as well join the main mormon church or just ride your bikes and horses.
Giddy up!

I want to say Happy Mother's Day too. Nothing is so close to my heart as the well being of my children. I have made mistakes and they break my heart but I love my children. God loves us very tenderly too and He says not to cause any little ones to stumble or we will suffer. xo

Hello Nola,
Now I must ask why you said "I entered college before I was married". This is the sort of half/truths that make people wonder about any truth being spoken. There is always a LITTLE truth in both sides of the stories, whether it is by the FLDS or Media. It is hard to sift the facts from the crap. I just don't believe that all that is being said can be lies. The truth must be somewhere in the middle. I pray for all of us!

Hi Hippygirl,
For your information, I started college in September of 1992. I was not married until May 1993. Unless I am mistaken that would put me in college as an unmarried female. So, where is the half truth in that. I did enter college before I was married. Again, Do I know you? Do you know me? Obviously you do not know much truth about me.

childgoddess,
you are so right Warren is a very sick man.

mykidsmom
No you do not know me. I have only seen you once. I am from Idaho but have heard many things from different people. I am glad to hear the truth. Tell me if you are a married wife or a celestial wife and do you live in Bountiful or Bonners Ferry? I am just curious.

Hi Hippygirl,
I am a married wife. I live in Bountiful, and I was born in the Creston Valley Hospital to Canadian born parents. I totally understand how it is easy to get confused about facts. That is why when someone tells me a story about another person, I ask for a name so I can contact the person for myself and verify if what I have heard is true. That way I am less likely to spread a lie all around the world while the truth doesn't even know the lie got started.

Hi Nola.
You are totally right. The story I heard was probably a mixture of different people getting things all mixed up. I sometimes see people who look like they are from Bountiful here. Do you have a community around here or do you just visit for shopping.I also wonder if you could answer a question. Do you have a sisterwife and did you do all your schooling in Creston?

childGoddess,

Hi, I am concerned about my family where ever they are, and I wish to let them know that if I can help them with anything I am available. I know that if I want to keep the pathway open, I don't want to put anyone down for what they believe is right. I feel that as soon as I find fault with a person, I loose their trust, and they wouldn't come to me for help. I know I wouldn't go to any of the people out there who claim they want to help people and then spread horrible rumors about the same people they say they want to help. I have told my family they are welcome to come to me. I tell my child there is nothing too big or too small for a mother to help her child with. I feel that if my child needed my help she would come to me.

Individual Voice,
Why did you write a message as if you were Susie? I suppose there are many Susie's in Polygamous communities but on this forum the Susie that we all know is missing is Jane's daughter. I don't believe her daughter would be allowed anywhere near a computer let alone even know that there is a discussion here to send her mother a message. Your initial contact was cruel to say the least - if you care about mother's the way you say you do and you must know how much Mother misses her Susie so that any hope would be a taunt to her if it was not real.
You are so right that there is no way to help people if rumors are spread and it is so difficult to sort out what is truth and what isn't -- but some things are pretty simple and self evident and if there wasn't a battle of leadership every 25 to 30 years in the Polygamous groups then it would be easier to figure out what life as usual is. This last battle has left casualties if you count the last count of 300 men (not even counting the so called "lost boy")to rival the destruction of any cult. Waco, Jonestown and many others. You can separate them out because they are not all the same of course but they came from the same roots.
Maybe Uncle Wink is the man to gather up all the walking wounded and let them have a leader who is trying to increase education and give people more choices. I gather he is trying to help all family of his father and the children who need help. That is a really big job since we know he has one hundred children himself - but with enough good women to help I'm sure he can do it.
It is only too good that you have an Individual Voice. I hope you keep it and I really hope that if you are Susie you will truly call your mother if you really have your own choice to do that.
peaceandlove

Good morning Bloggers, I wish to appologize for my last blog addressed to Hippygirl. In defence of Nola, I spoke of her older sister leaving with a man outside of our faith. I did not mean that as a personel attack, only as an example of why her father would have taken precautions. I do not know the full details of that girls case, only what I have heard from others. I am very sorry if I have offended anyone.
I have become an activist myself in defence of my faith, and I am afraid I have become a little too much like those who fight against us.
If there are any known cases of people smuggling, child or spousal abuse,incest, etc. etc. etc. bring the names forward, so the authorities have something to go on in their investigations. I voluntarily opened my home to the Ministry of social services during the investigations in 1993. Now I have become an activist, I will scream "discrimination" if anyone comes to my home, my church, or my school with out a legitamate complaint.
I think enough has been said on this blogging thread and I will be signing out.
P.S I want to thank the staff of the "TYEE" their story on the Bountiful Summit was the most accurate I have seen. The writer had a good mix of positive as well as the negative that went on down stairs. Thankyou for this blog thread. I am sorry if I have abused it in any way with my comments.

Hippygirl,
There are a few families who live down near Bonners. I have gone shopping in different places in Idaho, Sandpoint down to Spokane.
I attended the private school in our community for grades 1 through 12. In college, I stayed in Cranbrook and attended the college there.
I do not have a sisterwife.

Hello Childgodess,

I really am Susie, and I think my mother looks at these blogs, and that is why I told her Happy Mothers Day I am not Janie's daughter, and I will tell her about this, but I bet you already have. I share some of the same frustrations Janie does, and we visit as often as we can. I do not wish to fight. There are enough stink stirrers. It is time we all tried to make a new friend. The day is so beautiful out there. Let's all get out and go for a walk today.

I really appreciate anyone who will ask me about me instead of someone who knows nothing about me.

Hippygirl,

You sound like a fun person. What is your profession? Do you have children?

individual voice
I work in a grocery store and have 1 daughter and granddaughter. Is everyone here from Bountiful or are there some from Northern Idaho?

Stinger,
I have been trying to keep my conversation with Angel. My reason is that I feel a lot of people on here are out to argue or prove their point. I know a little bit about Mormonism,but as a Christian I have found some serious contradictions with the Mormon teachings and the Bible. I lived in an abusive situtation,my husband was very controlling as well. If anyone in Bountiful was in such a situation, I would want to help. However, I realize that not everyone is in such a situation.All my sisters do not have abusive husbands, I know not everyone in Bountiful is being abused. My motives are good, I only want to help. When my children and myself were being abused, help was appreciated. My Heavenly Father has been good to me. I would like to share His goodness with others.

Individual Voice,
If what I understand from what you say is right then why don't you go see your Mother and take her some flowers or take her to dinner or some other thing that works for Mother's day? I am glad you know Jane--I don't know her as well as I'd like to but she is lucky to have you for a friend. I apologize for sounding rough about your greeting but most of us only know that she has a daughter with three grandson's missing. And her daughter's name is Susie too. It just broke my heart to think that a Mother would loose the chance to speak to her daughter and grandson's that way -- for them to completely dissapear.
We all know there are situations where people choose to stay away from their family or disown them for what ever reason -- but when someone completely dissapears in situations where we have no idea whether or not they have the "choice" or Individual Voice to speak to their own mother then that is tragic beyond words. And I know from the stories on the myeldorado.net that Jane send her Susie a happy birthday card there enought to break your heart. If Susie is there or any place like that she might as well be in a Federal Prison.
You sound like a very good mother and actually a smart person too your suggestion to go for a walk and to stop the "stink stirring" is a great one. I hope your children were able to enjoy you for Mother's day.
I have some great friends and hope to make more we can't have too many friends. If you know Angel and Angel 13 then they are lucky to have you around.
Here's to friends and Individual Voices.