Good article.

I visited Amsterdam in January, and (strictly for research purposes) I took a walk through the red light district. The city as a whole is quite clean and in my limited experience felt safe. If you didn't know where it was, you could walk around other areas of the city and never know there was a red light district. I had to borrow a guidebook to find out where it was.

In the disctirct, I saw the women beind the full-length windows, and men alone and in pairs and groups cruising them. I also saw single (non-prositute) women walking along the canals, people walking their dogs, carrying home groceries. The locals seem quite blase about the whole thing. The intersection of Main and Hastings is far scarier.

This issue does get hung up on NIMBY. But once we can pick a spot, the rest of the city will benefit, and the working men and women will benefit too.

"Representatives from PACE, WISH, and PIVOT legal society have long fought to amend the solicitation laws and are currently contributing to a new committee of community-based organizations funded by the Vancouver Agreement to develop a municipal strategy to address the sex trade in a similar manner to the city's four pillars approach to the drug problem. The idea is to tackle issues of poverty, mental illness, and addiction associated with the sex trade."

Surely the ideal is to improve lives. Am I naive to think that the committee might find the best solution by focusing on the above goal and talking to sex workers to find out what they think? So far, decriminalizing seems like the best solution offered.

yes, you are. PACE, WISH, and PIVOT have all done extensive consultation with sex workers.

Bawdy houses and strolls would not eliminate the dangers of street prostitution and pimps. (Not to mention the nuisance of cruisers and the business's revolting rubber leavings.) There's quite a bit of supply (and, unfortunately, demand) for prostitutes who are underage and/or willing to do stuff that will fall outside the permitted activities. However, designated Red Light zone might make it easier to police the business, and that's a good thing.

Another good article.
I have little knowledge of the sex trade history of Vancouver but I know what I see and I agree that something needs to be done. I just hope this isn't being brought forth simply because of the Olympic bid. I'd hate to see the city rush into a decision for a band-aid fix and not deal with the real issues.

Before the War, my father was a commercial fisherman, and though he was working out of Victoria his boat often called at Vancouver. A Vancouver Mayor of the late 1930s (Gerry McGeer?) had promised to have the police remove the brothels from the stretch of Hastings Street and vacinity were the old Woodwards building is located. He succeeeded. The trade moved up to Granville Street, and probably began the process of reducing Granvilled from theatre row to sleasy strip. A bit of history, perhaps not entirely on point, but no doubt related. Where indeed should the oldest business in the world be doing business?

Having frequented a number of brothels for strictly research purposes and had sex with the young women therein again strictly for research purposes, I can only surmise based on my own personal in depth research that the best solution is to allow women to legally operate out of their own homes and apartments rather than setting out designated red light districts.

I am certainly glad it was strictly for research purposes Steve.

I am certainly glad it was strictly for research purposes Steve.

Kent is certainly glad Steve didn't have too much fun.

About a year ago I woke up one morning to the screams of a woman out front of my house (Fraser and 13th). I bolted out of bed, left my dog in the house because I was afraid if she was being attacked he would rip into the guy something fierce (weird split second decision, I should have brought him along), and was outside in seconds to find a young prostitute running around a truck with a guy's shirt in her hand- her client hadn't paid her apparently and she was a bit peeved. He jumped back in the truck when he saw me and drove off. About 10 minutes later neighbours wandered outside. This, believe it or not, is a residential family neighbourhood and it turns out there was a brothel of sorts across the street for years. Makes way more sense to have a district like in Amsterdam. As Peter said, it's quite organized and clean and very safe for the women- I stayed there (in the district haha) when I was 24, backpacking through Europe with a friend- we chose to stay at the "Christina Hostel" (I'm not kidding- we thought it would be in the safest area), and it wasn't until after dark when we were heading out to.. um, go to a cafe (not for research purposes)... that we realized we were in the red light district. Now if a Christian Hostel functions in the RL District, that is saying something, no?

It occurs to me that there is practically no risk to trying this idea. If the RL district fails to make things safer, then un-do it.

I have lived in Vancouver all my life, and a so called red light district will never work. I believe at some point a de facto red light district was attemped in the (mostly industrial area) at 2nd 3rd & 4th vetween Main & Cambie. This did not work, because it was even more dangerous & deserted than the "old" strolls, endangering the sex trade workers even more. There will always be street prostitution in so called skid road areas because of drugs. If a sex-trade worker is not on drugs, they can ply their trad almost anywhere, but at a certain level of addiction they will work close to the drug supply, and that is why a so called red light district, sex trade workers working out of their own residences will never fly. It is all about the drugs, the pimps or dealers who suooly them, and the desperation of sex trade workers on drugs that drive the system. Unlike a lot of people, I have no answers.

Will there be discounts for us seniors.

Good article. Its about time we got rid of this insane law. Who owns a persons body anyway? Themselves or the bloody state? And while we are about it lets decrim drugs too...

I think a real red light district would work much better than a "defacto" one. Why don't they just legalise them both, in house and red light? And of course, if it doesn't solve the problem then change it back. But it's clear that getting the problem out in the open is always better than hiding it in the closet.

Prostitution is not all about drugs, the commodity is sexual pleasure. Decriminalizing and prescribed drugs for addicts may address addiction-driven street prostitution but as the article points out, that is only at most a small fraction of prostitution in Vancouver, 80 % of it is run out of massage parlours and escort services by organized crime and is already mostly invisible. Anyone in favour of legalizing (the state is your pimp!) red light districts and brothels needs to read Victor Malarek's truly harrowing book on the global sex industry (and that includes those massage parlours and escort services here in BC) The Natashas. Yes, innocent young foreign girls get lured abroad with promises of jobs as domestics, waitresses and showgirls and then are literally sold to brothels that are really nothing more than commercial rape rooms. Organized prostitution is about serious crimes against women and children - coercement, kidnapping, trafficking, gang rape, assault, torture, forcible confinement and corruption that leaves its victims hugely traumatized. But as comments above demonstrate, it's all nudge, nudge, research only and no worries, any discounts?

.

IMHO, the only solution to prostitution is to solve poverty directly--through a Guaranteed Livable Income. Many women simply don't think they have any valuable skills to offer, and turn to this. (Some men feel this way, but don't tend to turn to this particular trade). Once there, unless I'm missing something, since it is all underground, the pimps get them hooked on drugs so they need to turn tricks.
You would never completely get rid of prostitution; apparently, some women would like to do this regardless, and I have no moral judgements about that. However, with Guaranteed Livable Income, for most women, the cycle could be broken before it started, women would be able to support themselves getting an education more readily, etc., etc.
This could solve an awful lot of other problems too. But the more covert you make a problem, the bigger it grows. I prefer "out of their own homes" or a "red light district" such as in Amsterdam.
Once again, this is IMHO, and I would love any thoughtful feedback on this, other than "that would never happen", as a little number crunching makes this particular social program make a *lot* more sense than welfare or EI...

What an incredible discussion to have in 2005.

Northern Europeon countries with legalized prostitution have done so with the existence of
guaranteed livible incomes. Prostitution is seen as a job. It has standards for workplaces and health support for the women and men who work at this job keeping everyone involved healthier. Of course this hasn't completely eliminated the existence of child sexploitation but does a much better job than in North America with ridiculous and moralistic arguments against prostitution. It
never has and never will go away.

My great grandfather arrived on Hastings St.from Newfoundland in the early 1900's to work with the prostitutes, opium addicts and exploited Asian sex slaves. He was a preacher who, even then, knew that more practical support was needed by the people working in prostitution. I worked with prostitutes and addicts in the same area 100 years later where little had changed.

Having prostitutes hidden from view is dangerous.
Working from individual homes is also dangerous.
Pimps like having that kind of complete control. Having organized and regulated districts will eliminate the need for relationships with pimps.

I understand in Amsterdam that buying sex is subsidized by taxpayers for people with physical and mental disabilities. Prostitutes are seen as doing a valuable social service in this case. How is that for a discount? Now that is a change in status!

I think I need to do some more research before I have an opinion of this.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, patricia. It's always great to get an outside perspective. We have a way of hearing only negative views on this continent, and frequently find that when our views are expansive, they are still often lacking. :)
As for GLI, I certainly don't mean to imply it would get rid of prostitution. But it could help solve the problem of women thinking that was their only alternative. I agree with you that many women are into this, and unlike another person saying that that way, I do not imply a moral judgement. I know men who like it too.
I totally agree with you that it would be better to have this respected as a profession, with worker standards, benefits, the whole thing. Now, let's try selling that nation wide. Best leave canadians to their leud advertising. Wouldn't want to have anything real in our midst... ;)

Did you hear the one about the German woman who was denied unemployment benefits because she refused to take a job as a prostitute? The truth of the matter is that women in enlightened northern European countries where prostitution is legal don't want to work in brothels so they are actually "staffed' by young women from the former Soviet Union and Asia brought in by traffickers. Or check out the scene in Israel where girls are brought in via visas issued through Israeli embassy in Moscow and sold to the highest bidder in Tel Aviv. Prostitution is legal there too.

Great to open up this discussion -- we should be talking about this. I notice that even the artwork accompanying this article conveys that silly, romanticized image of prostitution as a naughty bit of fun, rather than what it is: trafficking in women.

While I recognize that calling prostitution ‘sex trade work’ is an effort to empower the women involved, let’s not fool ourselves. The commodity is not ‘sexual pleasure’ as one poster writes, but women themselves. Applying the language of commerce here is ridiculous and dangerous – do we really want to apply the logic of the marketplace to human beings?

What’s more dehumanizing than turning women into commodities?

You'd think the "alternate press" Georgia Straight, Canwest's Vancouver Sun, and Vancouver Province would be coming out doing editorials in favour of legitimatizing prostitution. Maybe even setting up a fund for prostitutes who need help with addiction and poverty issues. They certainly don't mind raking in tons of cash from the "adult services" (massage parlours and escort services) sections in their classified ads. The Straight even has photo ads. Now, certainly we couldn't be putting these fine media organizations in the same classification as the organized crime groups who operate the massage and escorts parlours. One would, of course, be amiss in considering these newspapers as marketing tools for gangsters. Wouldn't one?

I don't think anything will move this discussion as long as it's split between two polarities: that prostitution is always slavery, exploitation, and violence against women, or that it's merely a free lifestyle choice, another possible job opportunity, and something that will get cleaned up with the right social regulation. Prostitution isn't going anywhere. It's here to stay. Deal with it!

how?

When a woman can choose freely whatever means of support she wishes, same as a man, we'll see sex trade workers who have pride and ethics in business. As long as we treat prostitution as a nasty evil sin, we'll have trade workers (and customers) who have no respect, no ethics and no joy. It's our attitude that sends women out onto the streets with no pride, no safety; we see them as disposagirls, due no admiration for thier skills. Sex is an art and a science; at it's least it should be friendly exercise, at it's best a spiritual bonding. Treat prostitution as you would any other ethics based business - if a worker is good at her job, enjoys the work and earns good money, she'll be respectful and respected. Keep her safe, physically and emotionally; she may enjoy her job more than you do yours, when these things are in place.

Waged work turns all of us into commodities. The agricultural worker who picked the flowers I got on Valentine's Day and wrecked his lungs and back
knows that. That is why we need employment standards and unions.

There are so many aspects to sex trade work.
I worked as a cocktail waitress and a model. I had to wear ridiculous costumes and shoes that still kill my back. I managed all the right moves and made a fortune in tips. My son's girlfriend worked for an airline and had to do the same. I have known many married women who stay with men who beat them and have sex for rent and groceries.
How is that for dehumanizing?

The "Natashas" are already here. So are young women and men from China. An east side elementary schools lost one third of its female students between grade 6 and 7 to the street
about five years ago. So existing laws aren't working.

Hiding prostitution away kills women and men. So does leaving it to organized crime.

Well said, Patricia.

Where is the evidence that the entire Vancouver off-street prostitution market is run by "organized crime?"

It is truly unbelievable how often we go around and around the same old rut talking the same old subject to death while women die. We know that banning it does not work, we know that turning a blind eye to it does not work, the only thing left is to try decriminalizing it. Bloody hell, even if it's not perfect, it's the only thing shown to work better than the stupid system we have now! Are the Europeans so much smarter than us? Or do we still feel we're the inheritors of the Puritan ethic that first colonized North America?
Lets get on with trying decriminalization, if not outright legalization, and see if it helps.
For heaven's sake, people are dying here!

I'll bet prostitution has skyrocketed in the past 4 years... borne of desperation. Well, thats my theory anyway. Anyone know if there are reliable statistics of this nature?

Of course, desperation would not explain it all; self-esteem and empowerment also play a role. We need to care for each other a little better and pay attention, especially during the critical years of development. Perhaps, too, more cooperation and less competition would help.

If the roles were reversed, and men were paid to have sex with women (and honestly, some women would be willing to pay for good sex, I'm sure), would we even be having this discussion??
Male prostitution would come with six figure incomes and fame- kind of like, hockey players... is my guess.

Prostitution isn't only a heterosexual issue.
Lots of men and boys do sex trade work.
Sometimes women pay but mostly other men buy their services. Their situation isn't a whole lot better and sometimes worse than women because of support systems.

The Hell's Angels run most of the "off street" prostitution in my neighbourhood. I think a fair amount in other neighbourhoods as well. But not all.

Patricia, what neighbourhood do you live in?
I am from the DTES and thats a pretty big statement that the Hell's Angels run most 'off street' prostitution.....Curious do you mean the escort agencies? THe strip joints? Can you define what you mean by that statement.

I think its fair to say that women (and men) "choose" to prostitute themselves out of desperation whether for drugs or to escape another rape and beating from a violent thug or for rent and groceries. A big argument posed against marriage in the 60s was that in marriage a women chose to prostitute themselves to one man not many. And no doubt there are some who chose the many for the independance it afforded. The courtesans. The Belle Watlings. Sex trade workers. The Jeff Gannons (kidnapped as a 12 year old paper boy, Johnny Gosch. and traumatized into a teen prostitution ring that was run out the White House during the Reagan/Bush years, but I guess he freely chooses to be militarystud.com) now.)

But wait! I am getting off topic. Do the words "sexual slavery" ring a bell? The buying and selling of human beings for forced prostitution. Yes, those nice, fresh girls from the Ukraine "choose" to answer phoney ads for foreign employment but they do not then choose to be kidnapped, raped and sold like a piece a meat to international brothel owners in South Korea, Thailand, Israel . . . and yes, Vancouver. If the brothels are busted these ultra brutalized and traumatized women are treated like criminals and deported back to the same corrupt places that rubber stamped their visas on the way out with no support system or treatment whatsoever. This is what legalized prostitution covers for.

Gee, I hope Vancouver gets a handle on this recent phenomena before it's able to spread throughout the province.

Yes treat it as the morale issue it is and we'll have it solved in no time, right?

Hey, how about setting up a Shame The Janes program so police will look as though they are actually doing something and we can all rest easier knowing those dangerous woman aren't lurking in our back alleys.

Definition:
I mean crack whores and kids. I mean the kids who lived next door in a stable who were punished by being thrown out of the second floor window. Kids who were locked in a chicken wire closed in basement until we got them out. Safe, self contained and working from home. Girls working from the Astoria, whose clothes were taken away so they couldn't leave, and the alley behind Commercial Drive where they get to blow guys on dirty old mattresses and couches. I'm not talking about all escort agencies or strip joints but check some of those out while you are at it.
Wouldn't it be nice if it was velvet glove but it ain't.

We voted in men mostly who have for decades ignored this offence against women,no choice but to decide to hit the street, men will not at the leg. or in courts be helpful. A petition or a mass movement,hmmm wait what if the sex workers spread avian flu? Then this segment would get attention!
Yes a guaranteed annual liveable supplement would be workable,it is in Texas,no cash handouts,only aStar card,which is used like a debit card for food only! No liquor ,no tobacco!
Many stores and taverns have since gone out of business since welfare cheques as we know it were eliminated. Yes some recpients barter food stuffs for cash,very few though.
Prostitutes seem like anyone else ,needs must be met,unfortunate the drugs can be a need also.
A defacto RLD does exist as it does in staid ole Victoria,the shame the john's project is not even done here, a full picture on the six oclocknews might backfire , a sort of trophy photo for some,i s'pose.
The policing may be very selective in cities that claim poor coverage by police,we don't have the staff[excuse 101].
The women involved in the trade and men on the game,both don't get much respect from society ,this the police know and little has to be done,the pickton farm disaster is not spoken of much in homes in North Vancouver,and other tony neighbourhoods,I'd bet.

It is good that this debate take place so close to International Women's Day...a day in which all progressive people celebrate the gains of women
( an hence all of us)and aspire to see a world devoid of the historical exploitation of women that first began with the coming into being of private property ( and its poverty) and the beginning of patriarchy. That the sale of a woman's body to the dominant male sex is the "oldest profession" is so much bullshit. This is a very recent historical phenominon . Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of history knows this. It arose with this arrival of private property, a recent historical development ( male owned initially and still predominantly) and the wealth and POVERTY that it generated. Desperately poor women were forced to offer themselves up ( i.e. their sexual services) to the more affluent male.
Yes, this has been going on for a few thousand years....but it is really not an occupation of choice but one that comes from necessity. Anyone who says otherwise is dishonest or removed from reality.
Being male, I know something of the male psyche and have observed first hand patriarchy and male dominance. I've seen and heard those who voice contempt for women and who see them as a "potential prize" ...a sexual target...a victim of disrespectful sexual exploitation. These men are just going to be so thankful to those politicians who will offer up to them, these desparate women in a very controlled environment that will ensure that they will not need to worry about procuring disease or being mugged...wow how wonderful it will be for them! Those in the tourist industry with be so thankful. Attention men of the world. Think Safe Controlled Sex! Think Vancouver! Come spend your money when you visit our new Trade and convention centre...we support and promote state-sponsored exploitation of women ( mostly). Red light districts will not end the danger to these women. The more desperate drug-addicted ones will offer themselves up at a considerable discount OUTSIDE the state zone. Let's deal with SOLUTIONS not BANDAIDS! Happy International Womens Day...Venceremos!

Sex has been around since Adam and Eve met under the apple tree,and will be around til this world ends.IF prostitution was legalizes as it is in Europe, the women would "belong to a house" (not a street corner)There would be NO "johns" (like bootlegging in booze.Get rid of them) Everyone wants sex..its natural, some people are not the most handsome nor the prettiest., BUT they should be allowed the same rights as everyone else.
NOW..If we had "houses" like Europe, ladies and men ( women want sex too,) would have ( by law) weekly medical exams therefore aiding in the prevention of sexual diseases. The government could collect tax dollars..(this is a business)
The "Johns" would not be beating these women,and taking the "money" and throwing a smidgeon back to the worker.And the girls would not be out there in all weather,trying to drum up business,(so as not to be belted around by the "johns") and they would not be on drugs to get the HI and GUTS to do the job.The customers would be legit,not some drunk..preditor..out to get a bit and then hurt the girl. HELL If we are going to have sex ..Lets at least make it safe.(and as the girls are examined weekly, there would be no rubbers laying in the alleys,(as they are now).
Legalize sex for women and men, let it be a profession. clean up the streets and alleys.

Libby, of course you are right, but since when did our goofy species ever get rational enough to act sanely? It took ten thousand years to figure out that we're all the same race, for instance; ten thousand years to think about allowing women the same rights as men. Do you really think there's enough smart people in the population to figure out that sex is natural, prostitutes are just workers and stuff like that, eh. You're giving waaaaaaaaay too much credit to homosapiens.

Truman...homosapiens have figured it out elsewhere. Canadians can figure it out they want. Change can only come with political will and that is always created by people like us. Right page Libby.

Truman Green, "there's enough smart people in the population to figure out that sex is natural".

The only thing stopping most of them are bizarre moral codes they are indoctrinated with almost from birth, zealots, with too much air time, who often sound like complete strangers from human desire or understanding and the puritanical religious ones who know that if you are being pleasured, you aren't suffering enough.

Of course, then there is that other small influence, the 24-7 media onslaught of sex, sex, sex to sell everything.

Patricia, I was just being silly, not criticizing Libby, of course. Seriously, though, there are so many things that just seem to be "no brainers,". Can you believe, for instance, that the Americans had to fight a four year war and kill 600,000 of their own young men to decide whether slavery was a good idea or not. I do understand that my comments in this regard are of little or no value.
But laughing's good.

I don't wish to be a zealot Truman. Laughing is good. You are right about war and no brainers and lots of other things you have written.
I really like to give people credit for being able to change though... both ideas and actions.

Devils' advocate 3/1/2005 suggests that if women " choose freely whatever means of support she wishes, same as a man, we'll see sex trade workers who have pride and ethics in business." I would suggest that if this were the case... there would be no sex trade workers PERIOD! Unfortunately in our twisted society people, including women have little security and they can not FREELY choose their jobs and the safety net has so many holes in it. Furthermore, the statement that "if a worker is good at her job, enjoys the work and earns good money, she'll be respectful and respected" is questionable. It would only be truly the case if this woman would be able to tell her own children in a proud way that she has chosen the sale of her body for a living and would encourage her own daughter(s) to following in her footsteps...I really cannot see this happening because rarely ( if ever)is this a profession of choice. There are those who say that the trade is a profession. As a professional myself, it was necessary to go to college for several years of training. What courses would be required of the sex trade " professional" prior to certification?
Anal sex 101? Blow jobs 202? Sound effects 101?...Ok the male sexual anatomy and the nervous system might be a realistic course...and where would one receive the intense training...VCC or perhaps some private institution specializing in the business?

Libby 3/4/2005 really gets things messed up when she assumes that people would be against prostition because they are opposed to sex. To be honest..in my long life..I've never met a person who was opposed to sex or had some difficulty with it ..except perhaps someone who was raped, abused by a partner or did it for a living umpteen times day 24/7...the question has never been whether one is for or against sex...99.9% would says that if it was "good" sex, that is free from coercion,economic necessity, power imbalance..wow...bring it on...( even Catholics!)nature has made it so pleasureable for biological/reproductive reasons . Oh, incidently sex has been around for over several billion years..it started with bacteria NOT Adam and Eve.... and will be around for another 5 billion approximately on this planet. Human sexuality has been twisted in the last 5000 years or so. Prior to that time, when women were the "dominant" sex, ie. the society was matrilineal...and the village looked after all equally..sexual relations were so much healthier than they are today...there was NO...I repeat..NO prostitution. We need to go back to this time BUT at a higher economic level.
There will be NO prostitution either.
Allan, 3/5/2005 I think is right when he attributes part of the problem to our sexist media that portrays women as sex objects to sell automobiles etc....
Women ( and men) need to complain and disallow such disrespectful and foul messaging. Excuse me..it's Saturday night..I'm making plans for an evening of freely entered into, non-coercive, mutually agreed to, safe sex...with an economically equal partner...can't wait! gtg :)

Lucky you,,for having a nice partner. Everybody doesn't,eh. Incidentally, bacteria use Asexual reproduction, not sexual. (that is A as in "un" or "not")

It's called binary fission.

Truman.I'm a biologist by training. Bacteria use BOTH asexual ( binary fission) AND sexual reproduction...the later is necessary to create genetic diversity needed by all life forms to survive environmental change.