Yeah, child labor is OK, and slavery too, and while were're about it how bout flogging? All good sustainable practices...

Capitalism is capitalism no matter what the label, it seems

The last I heard--a couple of years ago--MEC wasn't adhering to any particularly high standards. They were following the same low standard as everybody else. They made no effort to go above and beyond. I've heard them use the same "the facory is so modern and clean!" type talk before, also.

Well I see the Tyee felt fit to delete my previous post. Was it something I said?
Let me put it in a way that won't invite further "editing". Let's "nuance" like a lulu.
If this "business person" is claiming that resource costs in China are HALF of what they are here, they are either being "overpriced" by their supplier and are therefore "lacking a core competency" in business - or more likely, they're (ahem) "mistaken". Costs of textiles in China are *EASILY* 1/8th to 1/5th the cost in North America.
This *FACT* (don't let the truth scare you Tyee editors) beggars the question - where do these "manufacturers savings" go? Has *anyone* seen the price of garments drop by this same amount at their local retailers? Of course you haven't. So where do all these "savings" end up? Check the lemons margins. Check " 'ol Chips" account.
Let's dump all the pretense of "need to compete" and "passing on the savings" to consumers. Trash the "altruisistic" and "spreading the wealth" horse flop. This move is "necessary" because companies that are profitable simply want *MORE* profit. Moving overseas is fine and good and sound business. No problemo. Moving overseas and spinning it by suggesting that there's *any other reason* than further bloating profits stretches credibility - to say the least.Perhaps that's why we don't see "everything" in the image accompanying the article. Maybe - in spite of their professing otherwise - the subject lacks the equipment necessary for being completely honest.

Anarcho is right. There is no such thing as "enlightened" capitalism. That, to use the words of our dearly departed PM, is an oxymoron. Once one sees what slaves to consumerism we in developed countries really are, child labour seems like almost an acceptable practice. And sure, the WTO of course says such factories help pull people out of poverty. Yeah, into the "real" world of fully indetured 9-5.

Sorry, meant "indentured".

I agree with you on this one Insighda. I've never shopped there for the sole fact that it's overpriced but I though, "Hey, it's all local, it costs more to make". Who am I kidding? Like Insighda said, if this is the case, why are the unenlightened still paying $200+ for Nike's (substitute whatever you want in here) when they're being made for what, $5?

What a joke. Better believe everyone I know will be hearing about this one.

I've really been in the bush too long, no doubt. I've never been in a Wal Mart, nor will, but I've never even heard of a "Lululemon."

Though there is really nothing new here. Nor should anyone be surprised. That's capitalism. Always has been-, from even before the time of our own industrial revolution, and the land closure acts that drove the peasantry of England from the land and into the newly industrialized cities to work in the "new age" factories or starve. Always will be. It's innate to the beast's fear and greed based class dynamics, no less than it is in the Brahma and Untouchables caste structure of India, currently evolving into the capitalist vs so-called "free" worker class structure of all capitalist countries. And child labour (and prostitution) has, as it still does everywhere, played and plays no small part in that.

I agree with MJK and Insigheda, "Anarcho is right. There is no such thing as "enlightened" capitalism." It is an oxymoron.

Above, that should be Brahman; I typoed the "n", as in the highest of the four great Hindu classes or varnas

Good snapshot of the emperor up there. I see he's wearing that new style of condom hat that's all the rage in our leadership set these days. (Lululemon clothes are just more boring brand name shit for people who can't stand looking different than everyone else. C'mon people. Learn to express yourself a little.)

thankyou for your comments.

i wanted say things differently at balle but there was no light for notes nor a podium to read so i went ad hoc which is not an excuse. i am a not a person who is diplomatically inclined. i am smart enough to know what i could have said to placate the crowd but i thought i was asked to come and speak as to my experiences in trying to survive in a very tough business.

i was trying to show what is needed to be ethical but also successfull. this is like walking a tightrope. i could fall off either sides and i obviously fell.

my challenge is that my life has been different than most at the meeting. my life as a competitive swimmer took me all over the world. my dad remarried a flight attendant i and i received free air travel till i was 25. i started an international company when i was 25 and i travelled the world 6 months of each year in order to keep it out of bankruptcy. my "local", is the world.

i have seen first hand the amazing changes that happen to communities when foriegn money flows into a locale because of a factory. health, diet and sanition all improve. of course success only happens in 95% of cases and 5% will always fail. is this not what happens to all best intentions?

i wonder what will happen in 80 years when there are 15 inhabited planets? will we be trying to protect the local economy of earth against those sweatshops on space station 1495f-2? i asking people at balle for their definition of "local" but each and every person defined this differently. is it east vancouver?, is it west vancouver?, is it he lower mainland? is it canada? I DONT KNOW!

there is some impression that i dont care about sweatshops, child labor or local production. i do but i am 50 years old and i have the luxury of observing more than most only because of my age.

yes we could do only local production but eventually we would be run out of business. when i owned my former company westbeach, i manufactured in canada and was very proud of it as were our buyers. but when our competition went to the orient and brought in goods 30% less, the customers that supported us being canadian had no problem buying the less expensive alternative. this had westbeach on the brink of bankruptcy for 3 years and it was hell.

so i believe people want the best quality for the price no matter where it is made. i have 500 staff at lululemon and my job is to insure they still have a job tomorrow.

we are one of the few companies who still manufacture in canada because i have figured out how to make it work. why are you sticking it to me for being one of the few trying to make it work?

as far as china production, i find it very hard to believe anyone who says conditions are bad. i have lived at factories and i have been in at least 100.

i want to get the best of of everyone who works for lululemon. to do this, i treat people with respect and i pay them well. healthy, happy people produce better products so it is a win for both sides.

i really cannot see any situation where an employer, anywhere in the world, would make more money by treating their people poorly.

i often pass children on the streets of vancouver and i wonder what happened to them. it occurs to me that some of them didn't fit into our "school system". would it be better to train them in a job to have self respect and a decent future? i would like to give these people a vocation if i didnt feel the press would write a "sensation" story on child labor.

i have often wondered about stories of child labor and i wonder what occured to make it happen. i think each individual working child would have a story we don't know of. is teaching a child a trade better than prostitution. i would argue yes if there is no alternative which i think must be the case.

i sense that there is also a bias against success. why is this? i started with nothing and made nothing until i was 44. i lived in a one bedroom apartment in kits till i was 45 with 2 children. i have finally put all the parts together to make a brand that stands for quality, integrity and health. i am very proud of this and sad that anyone would see me or lululemon any differently.

anyway i wish everyone the best and i hope you all succeed in your lives.

Haha- Coyote, I had only heard of it recently myself. My (Japanese, coincidentally) friend brought it up last week over lunch as she had just shopped there for her and her husband. She mentioned she thought it was expensive, which is why I'll never shop there. (I'm not allowing myself any new garments this entire year until my credit card is paid off!) I find MEC kind of expensive too, and half the time they are out of XS which is all that I can fit into. But Chip above sounds like a nice guy, so maybe some of what he said at Balle was taken out of context?

An interesting look at the realities of garment manufacture. I suppose it is a race to the bottom, but what is the alternative? Nudity, I guess. Yay!

Haven't been to Vancouver in a while Coyote? Lululemon is the ultimate accessory to your SUV/Mini Cooper/Starbucks-low fat-extra hot-no foam-tazo chai latte/I-eat-at-Feenies kind of lifestyle. Don't worry it will lose popularity and fall by the wayside soon, I mean please yoga mats? Its a fad, a phaze, and the owner is obviously an asshole and an idiot, his 15 mins. are quickly expiring.

If Lululemon wants to do good in some poor community, then they should offer free consultation and some sort of charity handout. Let the people of that country do things their way. I mean really, don't they understand that taking jobs from this country simply moves the wealth? Create oppurtunity in one place and take it away in another. Doesn't seem like a solution to me, other than higher profits for the company.

Lululemon may mean well, great, but don't stop there. The real battle is that Canada is losing jobs at an alarming rate to overseas sweatshops, and may soon find ourselves just as bad off.

fi - or maybe chip has had some time since the speech to learn the best way to spin what he said.

I wonder how many of that 500 staff employed by lulu actually make a living wage? (There are cheaper sources for yoga mats, Tha Geek. It's called 'woven non-stick cupboard liner' and it comes in rolls at Zellers.)

If you're worried about children on the streets, chip, set up a vocational training school. BC education laws allow you to do that. Of course, why don't you just use some of your ridiculous profits to finance the trade-related subjects which were slashed from our public education programs due to lack of funding?

I worry about the race to the bottom syndrome, but having grown up in the Third World, I know what a difference a new factory with new jobs, even low-paying jobs, can make--people can actually feed their children. So there are benefits to outsourcing, if one takes a global perspective, but it's no excuse to tolerate sub-standard labour practices, child labour etc: These factories should be able to pay the adults enough so that they can take care of their children, not such paltry wages that the kids have to work to survive.

I think Chip deserves a few kudos here for standing up and defending what he believes in. I'm probably getting myself in hot water here too but...I have to say that as much I disagree with the future of many local companies (Lululemon included here), I can see his side as well. He's obviously not blind to the issues involved here and he's trying to make the best of things. He also makes a good point about the children on the streets of Vancouver (and elsewhere for that matter). If education isn't the answer for them (they either can't cope or don't like it) what's wrong with giving them an opportunity to work? Now, before you skin me alive, I don't mean young kids (let's say, under the age of 15 - I think they should be picked up off the street and placed in some sort of social assistance)However, at 15, many kids are already working, what would be so wrong with them working in, let's say, a factory? No one's saying it's easy work but it's work.

Every year, when the 'cold snap' hits Vancouver, the media covers the homeless issue. It never fails to amaze me how many don't WANT to go to a shelter. They don't want the 'hand out'. Well, giving them the opportunity to work wouldn't be giving them a handout, it would be giving them an opportunity.

Our social support system is severly flawed. Those kids are out there because someone didn't/doesn't care enough. For me, anything that could be done to help them is a step in the right direction.

I don't know, there are so many other issues surrounding this too. Who makes sure that the factories run according to standards? Who's held responsible if they don't? Perhaps the real answer is an 'uncooling' of brands. That would solve all the problems.

...and if we're worried about children in BC's streets, Chip (and the rest of us)need to stop pressuring politicians for ever more tax cuts so that we can afford ever more useless baubbles and trappings.

We have more kids on BC's street because the 2001 tax cuts had to be financed by cutting more than 12% of the budget for Child & Family services, which were already severely cash-strapped, plus cuts to welfare, child care subsidies, inner city school programs, six-dollar training wage, etc...

There are more kids on the street today because the Ministry for Children & Family Development started cutting foster kids loose at 16 to cut costs under the BC Liberals, sending them to live on the street with a few hundred bucks a month.

If Chip and Lululemmon want to restore some lustre to that corporate image by making a real difference, he could direct some of his considerable resources and corporate clout to raising public awareness of this travesty and to promoting solutions that address root causes.

Heck, accomplish that and I might even be persuaded to shake my booty in some new "yoga gear".

Marina, with all due respect, you probably will be "skinned alive". You say that "If education isn't the answer for them (they either can't cope or don't like it)what's wrong with giving them an opportunity to work?"

Most students who "can't cope or don't like it" are in that position because the education system has failed them. Even severely challenged children who face that every day can survive and succeed, given adequate supports & teaching approaches that address diverse needs.

As noted above, cuts & fiscal restraint under the BC Liberals have devastated the very programs that help these kids overcome their challenges and succeed in school--special ed & learning assistance services, inner city school programs, ESL/multicultural programs, family supports, etc.

These children can succeed in school, if we restore services and give them a chance. And they'll have a far better future ahead of them than if we give up at 15 and send them to work in factories. Society as a whole will be far better off as well, given the stats re dropouts.

(And while I disagree with Chip, I'd thank him for starting this debate...)

..OK, this is my last p.s. but in fairness, cuts & underfunding of the very school programs that help fragile kids began under the NDP--the Libs just made it far worse.

Two comments:

1. For all of those who believe the reasons/excuses given when companies move their production lines to another country under the banner of "there is no alternative, we need to do this to stay competitive", then I highly recommend that you see the documentary 'The Take'.

2. Uhhh.... "The Orient"????

Hey 'Tha Geek,' if your best argument comes from personally attacking a man you have never met, and calling him, 'an ass hole and an idiot' despite the fact that all you have on him is an article written about him (which may or may not have portrayed him accurately in the first place need I remind you) then you were not born a lawyer. Try pleading your case in the sand box.

While Chip may be taken out of context as Marina commented, he has a lot of guts speaking candidly on a subject that he does (despite what you say) know a lot about. I mean, no one knows everything, but if the man has visited over 100 sweatshops, met with the owners, sourced product etc for that many years, he probably knows more than those of us sitting over here pontificating from our 'ethical' high horses. And while he may not always be the most polished public speaker in the sense that he makes comments that cause a stir, give him credit for not being yet another lying 'politician' type who just spouts intelligence-insulting bull shit so that you will buy his product. Don't his self-incriminating statements actually, in some strange way, show he cares more than the average business man? I mean, he's honest. Doesn't that stand for a whole lot more?

Give the guy a chance.

This list of postings has covered everything from the ethics of child labour, the nature of capitalism, and the personal integrity of a man none of you know anything about outside this article, to shopping habits ("I'm not spending anymore money til my credit card is payed down") and attacking the yuppie lifestyle.

Really kids.

Hey 'Tha Geek,' if your best argument comes from personally attacking a man you have never met, and calling him, 'an ass hole and an idiot' despite the fact that all you have on him is an article written about him (which may or may not have portrayed him accurately in the first place need I remind you) then you were not born a lawyer. Try pleading your case in the sand box.

While Chip may be taken out of context as Marina commented, he has a lot of guts speaking candidly on a subject that he does (despite what you say) know a lot about. I mean, no one knows everything, but if the man has visited over 100 sweatshops, met with the owners, sourced product etc for that many years, he probably knows more than those of us sitting over here pontificating from our 'ethical' high horses. And while he may not always be the most polished public speaker in the sense that he makes comments that cause a stir, give him credit for not being yet another lying 'politician' type who just spouts intelligence-insulting bull shit so that you will buy his product. Don't his self-incriminating statements actually, in some strange way, show he cares more than the average business man? I mean, he's honest. Doesn't that stand for a whole lot more?

Give the guy a chance.

This list of postings has covered everything from the ethics of child labour, the nature of capitalism, and the personal integrity of a man none of you know anything about outside this article, to shopping habits ("I'm not spending anymore money til my credit card is payed down") and attacking the yuppie lifestyle.

Really kids.

Fair enough Name. And as a student, I can tell you that it's mighty hard to keep with it. I did also say that this is a much larger issue. It's not just a problem of lack of funding for education. It includes lack of funding for everything else too (housing, social support groups, health you name it).

I absolutely agree, Marina -- and good luck with your studies

I would suggest you stop making assumptions, amazed. Some of us have worked in aid and assistance for decades. I've just returned from another stint in the peninsula where I got yet another first-hand experience of witnessing the depths to which 1st-world nations will sink in the name of 'relief efforts'. I KNOW a whole lot of people are either offensive, selfish bastards or idiots. It gets too much to swallow when they want to come out like cultural heroes in order to sell their brands.

Buy yourself a plane ticket, amazed, and take a real look around. The planet IS dying. Communities are disintegrating. Resources are disappearing. The environment is degrading past the point of fix-up. The same old oppressors are at the same old domination and enslavement as ever. The big killer is that materialistic consumerism which people like Chip here are pumping and self-justifying like crazy. I don't buy it. If you were really smart, neither would you.

Chip,

You ask, why you...

Because, your entire corporate image is based on the reverse of your actions. Your image is the exact opposite of what you are professing.

As I sit at my computer, on my poster board, is one of your sheets of life wisdoms and 'advice'. It is as it would appear, rather clever, by half.

You say you sense a bias against success. I don't want to be rude, and I am not standing in judgement of you as a person, however, I will say that it is very easy to deceive one's self when one has a lot to gain.

Also, I am sure the factory owner in China polishes the silver before your arrival and unless you are making surprise visits and really able to query someone who is totally dependent for their very survival on the factory manager and receive an honest answer, I suggest to you that you really don't know what is going on in those environments.

You say it is that you consider the earth as your home rather than just BC. Well, that is admirable (although, I must say, not all of us who disagree with you are as provincial as all that), it is up to us to help create first world conditions there, not to bring the whole world to the standard of living of Mexico. However, that conscious act would take away the very incentive to move overseas, wouldn't it?

Finally, if you and others continue to outsource, eventually you'll not have anyone to buy your product. It's not rocket science.

I am not judging you. I am against laissez faire capitalism as any intelligent person would be, however, I am not against our former social democratic society and believe you have the right to be successful. I was shocked when I read your comments because they are in the context of your corporate image.

Child labour is always wrong. Children are growing and need sunshine, play, education and nourishment. I can't even believe that we are discussing this issue. It just shows what trouble we are in. And, how we have been taken over by barbarians.

LOL.
Oh yeah amazed - he's honest. As written; if Mr Wilson is getting his materials at half the cost he claims he's getting here, he's either (ahem)"overstating" or being gouged. Period. This is not a "guess". I know quite well what I'm talking about. Mr. Wilson could have taken the opportunity to respond to the question about pricing strategies too - but he didn't. Interesting. I'll ask again - will Lululemon pass these newfound "savings" onto their customers? Will they be marking their products down accordingly to 1/8th to 1/5 their current price? Truth: Of course they won't. And they won't because pricing is part of their "branding". Their customer *is* the conspicuous consumer. Their customers *want* people (like say, those Walmart riff raff) to know they shot their load on high priced pyjamas. Its part of the "branding". On that note, good luck selling "Made in China" as high end yoga wear Chip. Oh and heads up: I bet they'll find it funny how much faster they could have caught mistakes (bad yarn colouring or improper mixes on those seamless machines) when their supplier was in the same country... but then I guess they'll just pass that "error in judgement" down to the consumer... Manufacturers can spin tales of "spreading the wealth" all they like, I just want to know if (and when) all these "massive savings" they're crowing about will find their way to the people who actually financed their ability to manufacture their goods in a non-democratic country...

Right, but Chip's point is that kids, freed from the tyranny of the Lululemon factory, will not rush out into the sunshine to skip and frolic. They will head for the next factory. Ideally, Chip, as a well-meaning yoga dude, should start/join a corporate self-reform movement to increase wages and eliminate child labour. Going to the factories and assuring himself (if not you or me) that the wages are relatively good is mostly a gesture. But a decent gesture. Perhaps we should encourage him.

This is kids stuff.Invert my name.
Question the veracity of our "Corporate "Commitment". We are spinning and spinning and spinning - and still you buy.

Ron,

That sounds a whole lot like if I don't exploit them, someone else will.

Why would that merit encouragement?

Are there only two options? To exploit them or let someone else exploit them? Thankfully, no. Community development has many success stories that do not involve child labour. In fact cottage industries, where women are paid fair value for their products are proven to benefit their communities and their children the most.

Why would I return to this store and purchase an item for 57$ when I can go to a discount US retail and get same top/bra for 3.99 to 7.99??!!!! Same quality, same design, probably the same factory!

I'm not 14 so the label doesn't matter. It's because I assumed they were made in Canada.>p>

I go to LA a lot and believe me they're available and for that price.

It was meant to sound like "so that someone else won't exploit them worse, I will exploit them somewhat better, and not at all in the future." As for fair value, it seems to me that the Fairly Traded level has some currency among us coffee addicts. Is something akin to that available for the textile industry?

Sure is, Ron. Try:

http://www.one-world-is-enough

You might also email Oxfam.

" I find MEC kind of expensive too, and half the time they are out of XS which is all that I can fit into." writes FYI.

XS? Seriously? Don't ask me why, and though... (Hey, I'm hetero-male, regardless of all the other age and degeneration qualifiers!) ...even online, someone who strikes me as female, immediately becomes a fantasy object, I never saw you as XS in my dirty minds eye. :-)

Being a serious cyclist, even in the winter snow, and a fairly serious "outdoor" type person generally, I do a lot of online purchases from MEC. I have, at the same time, wondered about their "professed" image, and how close it comes to the reality of current capitalism-, with deep suspicions.

What Chip describes, and actually, I'm not "entirely" unsympathetic to him, though he does come across as a bit of the classic "capitalist whiner", (The rich are always crying poverty.)-, again, what he describes is the classic race to the global village bottom, only from the well-intentioned "bon vivant" capitalists point of view. (And the "well-intentioned" part is more likely only extreme cynicism, in my experience with "the type"-, indeed most likely.)

Though what he does quite unintentionally help make clear is, that regardless of his or any petite bourgeois or other capitalists assumed good intentions, capitalism itself, its underpinning dynamic and motivations, is "the problem". It is the "self-interest" embodied at its core, that fucks up whatever good intentions they "MAY" have. And that is giving them the benefit of the doubt, which I really do not think anyone, at this juncture in history, should really give them. Certainly I do not.

Dudes like Chip are always anxious to be seen as just being "human", of course. But the fact is, nice guy or not nice guy, they are part of the problem, and CHOOSE to be there.

And, yes, regrettably, for their own good and interests, too many folks, like my friend Fi, being good people themselves, want to see them as "human", and really, at heart, good people. Which they may or may not be. (Women are inclined to be too soft and forgiving anyway, as a very general rule. And thank God, for most asshole males.!)

In my view, more the classic asshole male perspective, better that we harden our hearts, at least until the job that needs to be done bringing these guys and the economic system they in part represent under control is achieved. When it comes to "the almighty buck", these guys can be real sweet talkers to melt the ladies hearts. And more than one guys, who they know how to play the "Envy Card" to. (Especially when they see their success rate with the ladies :-)

Ethical Wares - order ethically produced and fairly traded clothing and footwear online:

http://www.ethicalwares.com/index.htm

One World is Enough- order Fair trade clothes on line

http://www.one-world-is-enough.net

Ralper –Fair Trade and Organic Clothing Brand

http://www.ralper.co.uk/

Serendipity Sam’s- Fair Trade Clothing available online from the UK :

http://www.serendipitysams.co.uk/clothing/index.htm

No Sweat Apparel- Ethically produced clothing is produced by independent trade union members in the US, Canada, and the developing world.

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/

Worker cooperative manufacturing union made sweatshop free clothes:

http://www.sweatx.net/index.html

I hear you, Ron.

Wow! Thanks for all the resourses - let'stry...

http://www.responsibleshopper.org

If you type in Safeways you'll get an example of how they rate companies.

On Broadway in Vancouver there is the Oxfam store which has a fair trade standard. It moved from Fourth. Things aren't expensive there at all. They also sell Fair Trade coffee.,p>

This is a growing movement.

Not sure if it's the yoga or foes like Coyote all blissed out imagining Fy in XS yoga pants, but this is one of the mellowest threads I've ever seen on the Tyee... :-) You're right about the bigger picture, Coyote, but given that we're not going to fix the world overnight (or possibly ever), why not encourage Chip & co to work harder for our consumer dollars? They're not going to stop outsourcing, so let's stop the race to the bottom by pressuring them to pull up standards in their Asian factories. This very debate must be ominous to all those who thought globalization would let them duck the social side of the equation. Fair trade coffee, eco-certified lumber, ethical investing, etc are creating a global awareness among First World consumers that won't leave them anywhere to hide. I'd encourage guys like Chip to push this further, make sure it's deeper than a marketing gimmick (and smack them when they deserve it -- as in child labour!).

"You're right about the bigger picture, Coyote, but given that we're not going to fix the world overnight (or possibly ever), why not encourage Chip & co to work harder for our consumer dollars?" writes Name.

First, I accept that, certainly in the short run, I have to deal with the world as it is-, to a degree, short of stepping off the planet. After that, like Chip, you have to live with the consequences of the choices you make, and your conscience, trying to build the case justifying your resort to child labour, like the pedophile who really "loves" children. That's why he fucks them.

Which begs the question right off the top, why not pay the adults a wage that will support the needs of the family members, and the reproduction and education of the labour you hope to be able to exploit in the future?

But that gets in the way of the immediate competition with the corporate giants, and the cash flow and profits, right?

Though really, those folks and those kids are going to come looking for you somewhere in the future. When you will have to spin a new yarn, if they're still in a mood to listen to the bs.

Fuck man, I've been around capitalism for a long time, starting from a street kid in this country myself. Not whining, just a fact. I know every con you folks try to justify. Been there. Done that.

But side-stepping that, because it leads to nowhere this side of capitalism-, between understanding capitalism and people like Chip who "play the game" and perpetuate "the system", and your assumption that we're not going to "fix the world", is a great leap into the pit of hopelessness you kind of folks would dearly love to have "us" folks believe is real. In which case, the only choice left is to submit to the Grand Game, right?

We've got you as apologists and enemies, which is what Chip really is at rock bottom, but you see, I just don't buy it. Never did. Those that do are shooting smack down on the lower East Side.

The really big tasks of history often run longer than the life of one, or even several generations of men and women. There's objective economic and political realities, the pressing needs to reproduce and raise families, and lots of gullible folks, but I cling to the belief,like a religious person clings to the belief in a higher power, only my "belief" borne out by history to here, that eventually we WILL deal with capitalism, like folks in time rose above primitive tribalism, and brought down the great slave societies, and eventually even the great landed aristocracies of feudalism. And degree by degree our lives in the great mass have improved, by and large. Though there is slippage occuring in current capitalism. And eventually, when the understanding is there, and the objective conditions ( Which Neocons and the great global corporations in our time are helping to create.), we all will deal with capitalism and the great evils like child labour and the exploitation of ordinary folks and the poor it actually uses and perpetuates to enrich the few.

We're coming from a different place, see the world entirely differently and have fundamentally different interests, like we have nothing in common but our flesh and blood, and see radically different possibilities, Name and Chip. It's called a class reality. I accept that too.

Geez, Coyote...!

"Children frolicking in the sun"... sweet concept but hardly reality, for girls especially, in many of these countries. I'll be blunt: Educate the women/give them opportunites and they will have less children; those they have will be more likely to be fed and happy and not have to work in factories to help support their 12 siblings. It's pretty simple really. Until cultural barriers are lifted, until the world stands up and takes notice of the lack of human rts afforded to (mostly women) in third world countries (and I mean choice and education), the same old cycle will occur, over and over and over- and us in the west will tap away at our computers, pontificating, and shredding the likes of Chip (who really isn't at the core of the problem).

Coyote- XS really isn't that small- it's about the same as a M in Taiwan. (I've compared sizes of clothes I bought there and here; 2 size differences on the tag but same actual size).

Good piece overall, Fi.

Except, while our man Chip is not at the very core of the problem, he is attempting to be a player in the new game of global corporate capitalism. And the attitude he reflects, towards the labour of folks here and in the third world, leads in its logic over time, to no consumers here in any better a position to purchase his products than in the third world. (Because while he does want these children to "produce" them, at cheaper than what he can get it done here, he does want us to "buy" them with our relatively higher wages here. All the while, he effectively undermines "manufacture" and the "job base" here, and the very sustainability of the consumers upon which he depends. As a demonstration that all he really gives a twaddle about is himself, and profitability over the relatively short run-, or at least until he can build something up and fob it off to a bigger player.)

Chip is not the harmless, sweetheart success story some seem anxious to believe.

And, while not a bad bit of computer pontificating yourself, which is, I think, correct in many regards, I do think you fail to see how folks like Chip, men and women from the corporate west by the way, and even the "bit" players, preoccupied with "success", as in "their" success, actually exploit and utilize the very conditions which you describe, whilst making the claim and seeking to have you believe in their altruism. (And if you want to test that, watch their reaction, even that of old lotus posture Chip's, when you mention "unionizing", as in empowering those women and children, AND men. (Men do not all have silver spoons in their mouths either, and by and large want to and endeavour to support their families.) Check out the look of panic that comes into their eyes. They, the Chips of the world, are there in those places, precisely because those folks are powerless. Do you think they really want that to change? ) Chip and his corporate pals are part of the problem, in my view.

So, manufacturers "must" outsource to China (now the world's number 1 consumer, as a nation) to stay competitive. Unfortunately, their corrupt legal and political system (the same thing really) means that your proprietary interests have just been flushed into a black hole.

Here's the common scenario, manufacturers outsource to China. The outsourcers pirate everything, clone it perfectly, re-brand it (if required), and then import it back to the originating country, with a street price of 50% of the original. Happens over and over again.

So, expect China-manufactured consumer electronics, cars, appliances, etc. real soon.

On the other hand, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. have all done it before.

it is pretty nice that this big business can be personified and called by its first name: phil, chip, bill: we were not on a first name basis with snc, royal dutch, enron, ratheon...

it is easy to pretend to have business ethos but to follow through on them proves to be harder. lulu does atleast atempt to be a reasonable citizen, but perhaps is occasionaly caught as a small fry standing next to phil knight.

patogonia and mec are two examples 'potentially socially responsable' outdoor companies: companies that produce equipment, clothing and other implements so we can drive to the woods/water/rockface and leave our footprints.

so perhaps we should all walk around naked and not consume. end of topic and not going to happen.

so perhaps lulu may have walked into a media minefield with a comment on child labour. but what are the realities of the game that we as consumers play and how do governments create policy in their own back yards to protect their own citizens.

there are just too many BIG issues to consider 'on how to' conduct our habit of consuming.

lulu may not be batting 100%, but maybe it is as close as possible, for now.

any takers to help out, or just critisize.

end.

To chose to move manufacturing to China is not 'as close as possible' to any corporate responsibility.

Perhaps, the question is, just how rich do I have to be?

People in the position of making those choices have a greater potential for good in this world right now. Some corporations are banding together and making those choices right now and they are the ones I choose to reward with my money.

Robert Owen's factories are an example of how one can become wealthy, and change society. He ran those successful factories when Laissez Faire Capitalism was rampant.

Yes, it is true that where women are educated and given power over their own lives and their own bodies, they create positive change for their families and their communities.

Is it a coincidence that Bush tied up AID's aid to Africa with an edict that there was to be NO money given to those who promote condoms??!!!! Yes, condoms, which would go a long way to stop aids. Especially, if some money was ear marked to make it acceptable for men to wear them, or to provide women with them.

Is it a coincidence that not only do some want to deny safe abortions to women (women will have them anyway and rich women will continue to have safe ones - poor women will lose their lives), but also want to deny basic birth control?

Just how rich do I have to be? Just how much do I need to drive? How much packaging do I need? Etc etc. Just how can I keep taking and not giving back to our world. These are some things I have to ask myself. We all need to ask ourselves that.

I think that our social democracy was the best system and that the third world would be better off with a social democracy, but like anyone not totally crazy, faced with the choice between Laissez Faire Capitalism and outright Socialism; I'll take Socialism.

The post above is mine.

We ,me included, will surely miss our protected labour market and lifestyle,the past decades do in retrospect look good,because of protection.
My wife argues urgently that child labour in the Phillipines sustains many a household,people now live longer and can't do agriculture stoop labour as easily.The children become a source of living for the parents/grands.
Short of selling your organs poverty has few relief valves.O,yes, if i was in a soceity that allows me 14 children i might consider drawing straws to see who donates the kidney!
Sorry,but the medical advances brought to asia were not timed with birth control,at least not in my case,the babies provide financial wherewithall.

Re: Chip's comment about women he employs wanting to work 18 hours a day - well, duh - YOU ARE NOT PAYING THEM A LIVING WAGE!! Workers in the developed world have been fighting for reasonable wages and decent working conditions as a share of the natural resources being used up since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Now it seems we need to start over again - not only for those currently being exploited overseas, but for ourselves as we are losing ground. Who is going to have the money to buy those $100 tops and pants?
Governments engineer how the money is spread around - funneling it to the wealthy by favorable taxation, corporate funding and removing regulations, or by providing social programs and laws which help people move to or stay in the middle class. Easy to see which way the wind blows these days in BC.
A living wage is a basic necessity for everyone - seamstresses in China, health care workers in BC.

Nellie McClung writes in her autobiography about the time she finally got the Manitoba premier to come to a Winnipeg garment sweat shop. She wanted him to change the laws to give the women some protection. The excuses he gave before he saw them were much the same. The women wanted to work there. They wanted pin money, conversely their familiies may need them there etc etc. He almost fainted when he finally went to one.

Yes, a living wage is imperative.
It's only the most basic of decency. Anything else is slavery.

As Lincoln said, 'Without labour, there is no captial.'

I met Chip Wilson 6 months ago and having spent the day with him I think the vitriol and derision expressed in the previous postings is way out of line. A few comments:

1 - Sign your name when you post, not some silly pseudonym. If you don't have the character, as Chip does, to speak your own opinion then it devalues what you have to say;

2 - Chip has been to more factories in the garment business than any of us. He is also an honest man, as evidenced by his communication style. If he believes the Chinese Lululemon factory is far from a sweatshop, then I do believe that this assessment has merit. If MEC is a standard to which he must compare then Chip should be commended for hiring an ex-MEC production manager and spot auditor to test the non-sweatshop assertion as noted in the Scott Deveau article. Further, Lululemon has obviously taken this issue to heart and has stated they are developing an ethical code of conduct for their product outsourcing – this should be commended;

3 – Chip is responsible for hundreds of employees, a number whom I’ve met and that are thankful he has created a company that provides them both careers and growing opportunities. The textile industry has rapidly changed and outsourcing to Asia is a necessity to keep the company viable and these people gainfully employed. If you disagree with the product pricing, the outsourcing and feel that Lululemon should be run at a lower profit margin, then by all means, buy your clothing elsewhere. That is the basis of democracy and capitalism; socialism would not allow you that freedom; and

4 – For those of you who call Chip an asshole and an idiot, are you aware that he and Lululemon hold a charity event each summer in support of a local holistic health centre for people dealing with cancer? Lululemon also supports a camp for children with AID’s. Those two events alone are likely more than any of us have done for the Vancouver community and its social fabric.

As far as I can tell, Chip is trying to do the best for a number of groups including local and offshore garment sewers, his own Lululemon staff spread throughout the world and rightfully so, for his own family which has seen some pretty lean times. I take his comments on child labour not to be in favour of child exploitation, but rather that the issue is not simply black and white. There is a potential for Asian garment factories to improve the quality of life in those regions but ideology with practicality will not bring a solution. By the sounds of it, most of you live on very high moral ground. I do wonder if you face half the challenges someone like Chip does in trying to create an ethical, yet sustainable, company.

Bruce Black

the same bruce black that is trying to spread horesrace gambling across the province?

by coming up with the plan to float the races on slot machine dollars?

Oh I'm such a coward for using a pseudonym, get a grip Bruce Black. Maybe I'll post some crap under your name or maybe under Chip Wilson's, using your real name has nothing to do with the validity of some of these postings. Allright though I was a little harsh and judgemental in my previous asshole/idiot posting but don't give me this line about charity events blah, blah, blah. Walmart, Microsoft, and Nike all give millions (probably hundreds of millions) more to charity than a little fish like Chip Wilson but I obviously do not support them.

It was Chip who made the decision to wade into this controversial subject and therefore it will be Chip who will draw the criticisms.

Any truth to the rumour that Lululemon recently sold out to Roots?

lisa, 2/19/2005 1:58:30 PM, writes: "The post above is mine."

And a good one it is-, in my view. (Though, in my read of the period past, "social democracy" within a capitalist framework could only ever have been temporary, and a reflection of a particular set of post-war "prosperity" circumstances. And the proof is in how quickly "they", the ruling class, ended it and turned on it and us with all their resources, as soon as they saw the opportunity to do so. The red flag event that marked the "tipping point" was Solidarity 1983. What was/is called CCF/NDP, or even New Labour style "Social Democracy" itself is neither fish nor fowl, and can only ever be a "transitional and temporary" experience, or way station, an attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable. Which I think we are, many of us, in the process of discovering. At least, my view. :-)

Still, like I said, I think your post was a good one, and otherwise accurate. >P> Now, I'm a busy boy today, so I'm outta here. Catch ya's later in the week. Actually a good discussion here.

Agreed, Coyote, that they are part of the problem. (Your posts are always more detailed and clearly thought out than mine :)

Thanks Coyote,

Sadly, I think you are right. I don't know where this is going to end.

Bruce, Chip has a legal right to make that decision, but let's not dress it up. Moving to China is NOT a necessity. It is a choice.

Where has loyalty to our country gone? Somehow our society really messed up to have so many so ungrateful, exploitive, ignorant, narcisstic so seemingly incapable of empathy and unable to evaluate what is of real value and what has real substance. Once this crisis in democracy is over (and it will be eventually after some horrible natural consequence to these bankrupt actions), we have to take a good, long look at ourselves to understand and correct how we bred such people in this land of abundance.

Back to Chip... as far as Chip's employees being so grateful - well! I've never heard such self-serving clap-trap! Their relationship is a mutual inter-dependency. I am sick and tired of campaign to make the 'investor class' 'Gods' and 'Kings'. This movement is destroying civil society. If it continues it will destroy our planet. There is no justification for it.

Actions such as Chips are to maximize profit. That may be his legal right, but let's not confuse it with a humanitarian act.

Thanks Coyote,

Sadly, I think you are right. I don't know where this is going to end.

Bruce, Chip has a legal right to make that decision, but let's not dress it up. Moving to China is NOT a necessity. It is a choice.

Where has loyalty to our country gone? Somehow our society really messed up to have so many so ungrateful, exploitive, ignorant, narcisstic so seemingly incapable of empathy and unable to evaluate what is of real value and what has real substance. Once this crisis in democracy is over (and it will be eventually after some horrible natural consequence to these bankrupt actions), we have to take a good, long look at ourselves to understand and correct how we bred such people in this land of abundance.

Back to Chip... as far as Chip's employees being so grateful - well! I've never heard such self-serving clap-trap! Their relationship is a mutual inter-dependency. I am sick and tired of campaign to make the 'investor class' 'Gods' and 'Kings'. This movement is destroying civil society. If it continues it will destroy our planet. There is no justification for it.

Actions such as Chips are to maximize profit. That may be his legal right, but let's not confuse it with a humanitarian act.

Fi, we will all differ from time to time, even those of us who fundamentally agree. My respect for you and your opinion however, is a constant, as well as for many others here.

(Wellll. I do run on sometimes, which can pass for detailed. :-) I'm just a little obsessive about politics, and I've been at it a long time. My friend KWD thinks I go on like I'm on crystal meth sometimes. And he is right-, not about the crystal meth, but that I do go on. :-)

But, to change topic for a moment: Folks who may be inclined, don't let these guys talk you out of your pseudonyms. They are trying to flush you out in the open so that they can intimidate you. They are under less threat as supporters of the system, than those of you are, who are its critics and opponents. Don't fall for it, unless you are certain of your security, at work and in your community. Online pseudonyms, in these times, help ensure that you can speak your mind freely. Which these guys have an interest in controlling, for their own reasons.

Be smart. :-) (But then, I'm of a generation of radicals that still remembers McCarthyism-, which had its impact, even in this country and its institutions, including the NDP and the labour movement.)

Bruce Black writes:

"Sign your name when you post..." Bullshit! Sign your real name to a bulletin board which tackles controversial subjects, and speaking from experience, you invite every crackpot to terrorize your home and family. No, people who sign their real names to posts are just plain foolish.

"Chip has been to more factories in the garment business than any of us." And your proof is? Some of us have toured through quite a few communities around the world, in Central and South America, and throughout the Indo-Chinese subcontinent and peninsula. I've toured more factories than I can count. Hiring an ex-MEC auditor doesn't say a thing to me until that is actually backed up with results. So far, she's just the window-dressing.

"Outsourcing to Asia is a necessity." I think others in this forum have already talked about killing off the economy and decent standard of living in one country in order to take advantage of slave-conditions in another. Listening to selfish cretins self-justify and play the usual head games about their enslavement and exploitation of others is too much and I won't let it pass without calling them on it.
"By the sounds of it, most of you live on very high moral ground." Fine, and your point is?

well, the board on ski resorts (lisa r's article) has gone dead so let's see what's happening over here! hoo-boy! it's former snowboarding mogul chip wilson getting into hot water over remarks about child labour! good one! there are many, many variables which contribute to the success of retail outlets and clothing brands; right now, chip's in 'hyper growth' mode and has to feed the beast or otherwise the whole damned shitaree will come down around his ears, like it did with westbeach. remember chip's humble beginnings, upstairs in that shop on Fourth and (i believe, Arbutus?) heck, i have running top that he made for the Turkey Trot 10K in what, 1997? what if he'd stayed there, stayed small, and enjoyed his little kitsilano one-bedroom. alas, i think he wanted to 'grow the company' - most entrepreneurs do, and the whole yoga deal has exploded way beyond his wildest dreams and while most may think that could make him a very rich man, quite often the opposite is true. take for instance, competition.
let's see, now, it isn't much of a stretch to see 'not for profit' MEC 'appropriating' some of its climbing clothing to 'remarket' for yoga wear (hopefully they will stock enough XS, fi). what yoga has to do with mountains is, well, maybe a stretch. alas, when i worked at MEC, companies like blurr, stonewear, prana, and verve were ALREADY saying 'screw this climbing shit, the REAL MONEY is over here in YOGA! whoo-hoo, get that Gore-TexTM away from me! and that not for profit status means that MEC's pricing will be anywhere from fifteen to fifty percent lower than chip's...
but i digress. i rather suspect that chip is outsourcing because he learned his lessons at westbeach - once the 'iron strikes' (and he's been very, very lucky to be on the cusp of snowboarding and now yoga) what were once core brands are now knocked-off at Wal-Mart and Target.
skateboarding is infamous for this - one of the once-core brands, airwalk, is sold at zellers. and woe betide the parent who comes home bearing a socalled 'cool' pair of airwalk sneakers for $30, when what your kid wants is a pair of Osiris or Path sneakers - yes, made in China - for four times as much. that hurts the ol' pocketbook, even with those nice Liberal tax breaks. skateboarders will 'stay true' to core values. i rather suspect that consumers of yoga wear will not.
after all, what about that old running or aerobics wear - if we're all so sanctimonious about our outdoor apparel, why aren't we down at 'value vill-aaaggge' (soft g, like in french) buying up used polypro? (mmm, maybe no xs's...)
i love chip's branding. a thing of beauty, actually. neurotic, uptight female professionals and stay at home yummy-mummies stressed out by 'everday life in western society' feel the need to pay $85 for a piece of flat-seamed supplex and $20 for a half hour of floor exercises and deep breathing - yeah, who wouldn't love that concept - talk about your value-added!! god, life's a bitch on the coast, eh? every time i think of yoga, i remember 'akbar & jeff's Yoga Hut' comic from matt groening's life in hell, about 20 or so years ago - who'da guessed that those two little guys would be so far ahead of the curve??
alas, chip (if you're following) snowboarding's still way more fun than yoga; though a bit of stretching before ya hit the terrain park is a good idea.
though my wife loves the stuff, i've never seen a pro-form, like 'ethically directed' patagonia, who is working the yoga front as well now, i see... (check out patagonia's 'water girl' sub brand, yoga fans. and the prices...)
see you on the slopes, er, the studio...

hey REAL, i think Bruce Blacks point is that you wipe your ass with Toilette paper too, don't you? TP you bought at the local xyz shop. i mean are you not in any way connected to the world of trade of sorts? i think Bruce Blacks point is you can't back up the moral high ground your spewing from (he just wants to know if you ever built something from ground up and is feeding people. look we all play in the same pool. if you want to make something you dig and feel like selling it, that's called economics (supply and demand). if you're into that, like chip, cool let them put his energy into his thing.(REAL where do you put your energy?) it just happened to be in a time where globalisation created marketforces that fuck with every entrepreneurs head, even the 'good' ones. globalisation 'benefits' us as a society in the short run, but screws us up in the long run, because job disappear and therefore the cash to keep our economic wheels oiled. and without them who would think it would be a better world? and this pisses a lot of people upthread off. understandably, it's frightening, what's going to come, for sure. so even more so, chip who really tries to tightrope along a fine line (and with his clumsy way of making his point fell and snapped the rope between his legs). i invite anybody to run a business on a good idea and deal with the consequences that it keeps growing. difficult, very difficult, even more so if you want to do in a sustainable way.
it's hard, so keep judgment at bay. try to understand and come up with solutions. we're all in the same pool. peace.

Luluinterests,

It is true that the characters of the heroes in this story are still a mystery; but this much we do know:

• Businessfolk get desperate - with the energy and zeal of a rabid spoiled mall-rat who isn't getting his/her way - when protecting their empires (however small or big the empire might be) in the face of threat.
• In seeking to insulate themselves from threats businessfolk, not harnessed by reins of ethics, have been known to lie, cheat, steal, blackmail, injure, and even kill.
• In seeking profit businessfolk, not harnessed by reins of ethics, have been known to lie, cheat, steal, blackmail, injure, and even kill.
• Many Toms, Dicks, and Harrys profess that themselves or their interests possess an outstanding level of ethics in the name of covering all the angles in their marketing matrix but in reality these people are faces in a crowd of hum-drummers.

Folks who possess an outstanding level of ethics rarely admit it and when they do appear on the scene there is no arguing it.

Chip and Co.: I don't think I'll be picking up an Lulustuff in the near future but wish you well and hope that you have the common sense and good spirit to search for decent things and better realities.

Frank, that is the whole point.

Progressive people are starting to turn the ship around and doing it with the power of their money and where they put it. They are using the free-market to do this. Formally, our politicians and companies were, at least somewhat, accountable to the neighbourhoods they were housed in because of governmental regulation and community based good faith. Now these 'public servants' and corporations are telling us us to 'screw off', to be blunt. Leaving us with no choice. But wait! They still want our business! And, because thus far they haven't been able to rewrite a law that says we have to purchase our goods from one state approved laissez faire capitalist store, they are faced with this dilemma. (can this be far behind in this new fascism where the state is now in the service of the corporation, rather than in the service of the people? If the Wallmart model brings small business to it's knees and destroys them, then this will happen through attrition - lots of 'consumer choice' under that model - isn't there?)

Fighting back is a natural movement that chooses to regulate corporations by putting our cash where our mouth is. (as you seem to be advocating, but don't/won't see that that is what we are doing and that is why there is so much alarm being expressed -because their version of the free-market is only supposed to work one way) It is only necessary because of the neo-con movement which is trying to make capitalism the religion and the business owner, the God we are to bow down to, because it is from this god 'from whom all blessings (our daily bread) flow'. This is an evil religion for obvous reasons.

And, the push back is only a natural energy resistance in the law of physics and the psyche.

Once again, Chip is not feeding anyone. Anymore than his employees are feeding him. And, exactly in the same way. :)

His employees are fed by their own labour, without which Chip would not have his business. Chip and his employees are inter-dependent. This is what Lincoln meant by his famous statement, 'Without labour, there is NO capital'.

The line of comment that extols Chip' etal, is nothing but propaganda meant to promote the invester class as Kings and Gods and forget it. Not buying into it. I wasn't born yesterday.

Chip appears to be having a head on collision with his marketing strategy and his business choices. I don't know him and so I can't comment whether it is also a collision that involves his conscience.

here's another one that i just thought about, and none of chip's critics on the list have even raised it - why china in the first place?? MEC does business there, but has had to defeat various 'motions from the floor' at its annual meetings about doing business in china. what about those human rights abuses?? tianamann?? ah, all of it long ago, in a galaxy far, far away. everyone's in china, now - apparently, the 'next generation' of electric/hybrid cars are slated to be developed/built there.
to me, the fear of globalization is NOT in the 'shipment of jobs' overseas. by and large, garment workers jobs in a non unionized environment have gone begging in canada - likely for good reason. we socially conscious liberals are 'above' such menial labour, for our BAs in fine arts and communications. we'd far rather work in places like the post office, where union protection guarantees freedom of speech. no, the fear is that globalization will in fact ACCELERATE wealth creation and have an enormous effect on the resources of our planet. when all of those chinese start to trade in their bicycles for smoke belching two stroke motorcycles (as they have in thailand and other countries in the asian subcontinent) to get to and from work, the shit will truly hit the fan, global warming wise.
many of us in the western world have 'forsaken' our belief that buying more shit will make us feel happier. alas, emerging countries and their middle classes do not see it that way. they are out to first crawl out of their economic shithole, THEN get their kids educated, (there's a birth control argument here, too - families who move to cities don't need nine kids to work the fields), THEN they either open businesses or become otherwise gainfully employed, and THEN they start buying stuff.
people, the one thing you have to remember is that while resources are often finite, wealth is not. creating wealth in one jurisdiction does not necessarily 'take it away' from somewhere else. before chip's company, there was no yoga wear. now, we have chip's company, which gainfully employs a few hundred people, most of whom are likely happy to work there, and those who are not will move on.
i have little doubt about chip's story about the workers who complain about not getting enough hours. they (and their families) are on the fast track out of poverty, and give me the overtime. no pissing away paycheques for them.
here's another thread to ponder - what about chip's vancouver employees - the floor staff earning, what, $10 - $11 an hour in canada's most expensive city. is that not a form of exploitation as well?? you know though, i'll be he has to beat away the applicants with a stick when he posts a help wanted ad...

"before chip's company, there was no yoga wear..."

what the hell did the yogis in India wear before Lululemon?

my point exactly. (see previous comments). and why do we need it - c'mon ladies, pull out that fuschia aerobics wear from the mid 80s!
as thoreau, the 'original thinker' when it comes to leisure pursuits once said, 'beware any enterprise which requires new clothes...' good advice for emperors, too...

At the end of the day, you the consumer make the choice to buy the products. If you don't like Lululemon or WalMart, don't shop there. The real challenge is to educate the public at large. Most people have no idea where the products are made, and yes they do change loyalities for a lower price. Until people understand the true cost of buying the lower priced product, this will not change. Unfortunately, most of the true costs are not included in the cost of the outsourced product (transportation (i.e., oil), pollution etc. etc. Until this is done, it will be cheaper in short term to outsource these type of products.
I would also agree with point made above about the wages that people will work for. A friend owns a store in Vancouver and he can easily hire people at $10/hr., much to his amazement.

Nope, Peter, we don't. This thread is about twisted advertisements, where an idiot businessman wants his slave labour and to look enlightened too.

Frank, always revealing to hear from someone who realizes their moral ground is so low, and listen to them justify it.

Coyote, in my last post way back, I was in no way endorsing the idea of child labour, etc. Quite the contrary. My very first comment on all this was that whether you manufacture here or abroad, you should be paying adults well enough that they don't have to put their kids to work or to ask for 18-hour days. I thought that Chip's suggestion of child labour for our street kids was also incredibly stupid. If he wants to portray his company as socially responsiblem, he should be raising awareness of MCFD cuts etc that have put more kids on BC's streets than ever. The point I was trying to make was that if some corporations (whether for cynical niche marketing reasons or not) want to promote themselves as being socially responsible, we can encourage them with our consumer dollars, while holding them accountable to acting in ways that actually are socially responsible (i.e. working to establish better labour standards & conditions, welcoming unions etc) vs just trying to window dress totally unjustifiable practices like child labour. It's not the ultimate answer, but it is a start for those factory workers and also a way of building global awareness of the flaws in our current system. We won't tackle those flaws until enough people even realize that they exist--which is currently the case.

Wow, what a spoiled arrogant group of idiots! Who among us knows what it is like to be raised in abject poverty? No homes, no future, no hope. I certainly don't and I'm damned sure I never want to find out.
All of us sit on our computers (an obscene luxury most certainly made by cheap labour in foreign countries under deplorable conditions) we attach ourselves to an imaginary "online" community whose infrastructure was built in areas and factories that we all hope to never work in.
All this in a search to find like minded people who will not disagree with us but who will instead make us feel vindicated in our ability to make judgements on others.
You really believe that you are making a difference? Hands up everyone who is willing to trade places with someone in the third world.

"Wow, what a spoiled arrogant group of idiots! Who among us knows what it is like to be raised in abject poverty?"

Thanx for that enlightening perspective Sir Crass Bravadius Ignorantus.

... which was supposed to be a freakin' CARTOON!!

Plaid-suit: "And now we're coming to a spot where the folks are so ignorant, they'd never dream of asking for more than we're willing to pay!!

Bowler Hat: "-- And they'll never get rich on that--eh? chuckle

Plaid suit: "Here, they haven't been spoiled by that silly fad of working a mere 8-hour day!! These miserable rats are in such desperate need that they'll work a good, old-fashioned 16-hour day!!"

Bowler Hat: "You're a bright boy!!--how did you find such a splendid spot to move our factory?

Plaid suit: "Statistics show that there're more undernourished people in Dogpatch than anyplace!! Those are the kind I like to deal with!! They're so grateful-- Bless 'em!! --Psst! - These poor, ignorant wretches will be grateful for the chance to work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. They've never heard of anything better--and (chuckle!) we'll never tell 'em!!-)

I think you all are being a little harsh on poor Chip. Think about what he has created: jobs for 500 people that did not exist before he created them; wealth for all those employees who did not have it before; an opportunity for those employees to grow as people that did not exist.

So his business is successful and grows with the overall yoga market, and now all of a sudden he has to deal with Nike getting into the game. Now he must compete with Nike and Adidas and every other major clothing manufacturer that wants to sell yoga gear and they all make their clothes in China. What the hell is Chip supposed to do? Ask everyone to buy Canadian? He'd be out of business in a year and those 500 people would be out of work. Gee, what a great solution. It is apparent that many of you here have little idea just how difficult it is, miraculous in fact, to grow a business to the size of Lululemon. Out of every 20,000 that are started, one of them will do what Lululemon has.

He is doing what he has to do to survive. his brash comments have at least sparked some debate about the issue.

Kudos to you Chip.

People will work for whatever bit of money puts food on the table (or in my case, because I haven't yet bought a kitchen table, on a plate in their lap). I have two jobs here in Van- one pays between $20-25/hr and the other (drumroll....) $8/hr!!! Haha... I hadn't earned minimum wage (that's minimum, not $10 or $11) in over a decade- but I took the job because it's a step toward what I want to do next. A foot in the door, so to speak. Yes, I had to swallow my pride; yes, I had to tell myself "Stop thinking 'Oh, I've made $2 in 15 minutes'", yes, I had to quickly change the subject when my (somewhat rude) friends asked "How much does it pay?"... it really is the equivalent of a slave wage for Vancouver, and if it were my only or full-time job I'd be f***ed!! and I don't even have kids... but that's the whole point- people WILL work for minimum wage (some of us) because what alternative is there?? Join the panhandlers I suppose. Not about to quit the other job, I can tell you. Regardless, I like my minimum wage job. Go figure.

I wondered out loud at the grocery store the other day how could they sell a kid's shirt for $6? How poor was the person who made it and how much were they paid for their labour. Of course I bought the shirt because my own money is precious to me too. Only later with my child dancing around the house in his new shirt wondering aloud "my shirt was made by a poor person, my shirt was made by a poor person" did the full impact hit me. I by purchasing these items am contributing to the slavery of children in sweatshops. A shirt cannot be made for $6 ethically. Can you image what would happen to Body Shop if they all of a sudden started testing their products on animals. Perhaps Lululemon needs to go out of business.

who does chip think he's kidding? this guy is just making as much money as he can before the yoga fad fades and his business with it. lulu is a great lesson in what happens when a company pretends its being ethical in its marketing, but when that comes to backfire, they start rambling on about some other reasons. buy local made sense to chip when he was building his business, not it's getting in the way of profit. don't be fooled y'all.

who does chip think he's kidding? this guy is just making as much money as he can before the yoga fad fades and his business with it. lulu is a great lesson in what happens when a company pretends its being ethical in its marketing, but when that comes to backfire, they start rambling on about some other reasons. buy local made sense to chip when he was building his business, not it's getting in the way of profit. don't be fooled y'all.

who does chip think he's kidding? this guy is just making as much money as he can before the yoga fad fades and his business with it. lulu is a great lesson in what happens when a company pretends its being ethical in its marketing, but when that comes to backfire, they start rambling on about some other reasons. buy local made sense to chip when he was building his business, now it's getting in the way of profit. don't be fooled y'all.

who does chip think he's kidding? this guy is just making as much money as he can before the yoga fad fades and his business with it. lulu is a great lesson in what happens when a company pretends its being ethical in its marketing, but when that comes to backfire, they start rambling on about some other reasons. buy local made sense to chip when he was building his business, now it's getting in the way of profit, and he throws the concept out. don't be fooled y'all.

Hate to break this to you, Andrew.

Chip didn't invent yoga wear.

Nor are his employees wealthy. Nor, would they be on the bread line if he hadn't started his business. Sounds like the religion God & King thing again.

However, he obviously is a good businessman and has a real talent for marketing. (assuming he is doing his own)

The post above is mine.

I should amend 'good' business man - because that is too encompassing - to competent/sucessful businessman.

KARMA - an athletic wear store now on Fourth Avenue. To my knowledge, still honours its local-designing and at least quasi-ethical manufacturing roots. Not a lot cheaper, but better service and fabulous, durable, comfortable clothes/work out gear.

Another local alternative with high quality yoga/workout wear is Lotuswear (the Village at Park Royal) -- much more original/creative design and much better quality than that of the lululoser.

Please refrain from using html tags until your stepdad gets home from prison. Thank You

stupidTaggers. Suits you.

I do my yoga first thing in the morning in my pajamas. I don't like competitive yoga. Kind of goes against what it's supposed to be about.

"Lululoser" - I love it good one Michelle! Pretty soon and we'll find this overrated crap at Value Village alongside Sun Ice jackets and zubaz pants. I just checked and Lululemon now has 11.5 minutes left.

we're always on the lookout for the under dog, until they become successful too. . . then we shun everything about them that we promoted before. the more we push alternates, the bigger THEY get. it's a cycle and it's easy for us to be the consumer because we can sit back and decide... we never have to commit because tomorrow somone will tell us that another company is better...and we can choose. we're lucky bastards in that sense. don't come down on an effort to change the system... but keep looking for ways to improve what's there... if people didn't make decisons, realize the consequences and change... business would have no hope for being responsible. come to the table with a solution not a problem... if you think a company is not fair. get of the internet and find out more about it... in an unbiased format... and then figure out what the hell else we should do. shut down all our metropolitan centres until someone figures out how to make production, wages, and the supply and demand of excessive consumerism balance? or should we tinker with what's already there? change takes time. if you have the time and knowledge of how to revamp our current system, go to it. and let us know when you are done.

Gosh, d'ya think Lulu's shareholders are making a special visit to Tyee? All these louts with new tags making a appearance just to spout the same old neocon crap. I just *love* the classic WalMart whine about beating up on that poor ole underdog when it starts coming up on top. NO! We LOVE underdogs who stick to their principles, thara, and we despise corporate whores who sell out when it looks like a choice between maximum profits and BASIC human decency. Or at least a little imagination, a little intelligence, a bit of balls and something resembling a live, beating human heart. Not only that, but we DESPISE stooges who spout all this sanctimonious crap about how we gotta eat this bullshit, because "lawdamercy, slavery was the best thang to evuh happen to those black niggahs!"

And then, to accuse people who post on this site of not doing anything positive changing things. Excuse me! Take your own conscience to the spot-cleaners, MacBeth. Start living UP to something instead of sinking to the lowest, and then whining about how superior you think everyone sounds compared to you. No kidding!

Those neo-con ad hominem attacks are getting so tiresome. And, they only work with the element of surprise. It's too late for that.

I looked through my old Yoga Journals and found that ad in June's issue. What is the matter with this company?

Here's some advice. And, I won't even charge you. If you are going to continue to outsource, slowly eliminate the ethical aspect of your marketing until it is no longer your achilles heel. Make your decision and be okay with it. In other words, bow gracefully out of the 'green company' company trend. Otherwise, cop a mea culpa with your peers talking about the temptation and challenges that you had and bow out of outsourcing, charge 2 - 4$ extra with lots of advertising for making your gear in the country it's sold in (how green is that and how much shipping is saved) and get a boat load of of postitive PR for it. Considering the deals may already be in place this may not be possible. But, I don't really think you can have it both ways.

Nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit.

Here's a poem for the rest of us.

http://www.geocities.com/isisdownunder1/TheParadoxOfOurTimes.h tml

Oh dear. Please eliminate the space between the h and ....tml. Sorry.

Oh dear. Please eliminate the space between the h and ....tml. Sorry.

What an amazing amount of whining about someone who is actually telling the truth. A person loves what they have created and don't want to see it fail. They feel responsible to their employees so they are honestly stating the facts of modern business, facts which most companies do their damndest to hide. You talk about the horrible "neo-cons" with their tired lines of attack while you hide behind the same old arguments yourself. I wonder if you don't feel just a bit embarrassed wading in on companies (MEC and Lululemon) which are making honest attempts to make an impact on an inherently unjust system. I mean really aren't their bigger dragons for all you world changers to tackle?

abeo vestri own vita

Yup.

I came across this quote earlier... I suspect it's context is actually to do
with the holocaust, but I think it's fitting here too.....

More than anything --more than hatred and torture -- more than pain -- do I
fear the world's indifference.
-Elie Wiesel

L

> Yeah I can't say i'ma real expert on the subject. But denial of breaks,
> locked doors, and some pig headed enforcer towering over with a whip is a
> shameful situation for all humanity. And should not be condoned by
> ignorant product purchase. And certainly any company that is making money
> has the moral obligation to fairly invest into their labour pool. Pure
> capitalism does not necessarily operate with morality however.
>
> Perhaps the only way is through a Worldwide labour, and environmental
> agreement. Coming complete with inspectors and a stick.
>
> J
>
>
Ok, so why even bother with the sweat shops then? Why not endeavour to
>> achieve those standards now instead of later? Rather than saying, well
>> they're going to do it anyway, so I guess it's ok.
>> It's kinda harsh either way I guess... either give some folks shitty
>> work, or deny them work all together. Or what? Maybe there's some
>> global happy medium that I can't see... wouldn't that be nice? It would
>> even sit better with me if companies didn't do things like Lock their
>> workers in for their shifts, deny bathroom breaks, have insanely
>> unsanitary conditions, dangerous conditions.... you know? Have folks
>> work as long as they want, but at least provide them with a safe, healthy
>> work environment! And yes, I still think they should be paid more. It's
>> ridiculous how much money companies are raking in. Perhaps communism
>> isn't all bad... a cap on profits for everyone or something so that the
>> playing field is more level, then if you can't bank the money anyway, may
>> as well improve your working standards.
>>
>> Well, one can wish at least.
>>L
>>
>>>>>
>>> Yes, but if they don't compete to their full extent then someone else
>>> will and outcompete them for customers by having lower prices. Then the
>>> company goes out 'o' business, throwing the better paid employees out of
>>> work. To seek work in the lower wage sweat shops. Back to square one.
>>> Perhaps it's an advantage for 3rd world economies to have super low
>>> wages. They then attract companies that otherwise would not set up shop
>>> there in the first place. (I know I'm being a catch 22 advocate,
>>> but...) Ideally we would have a world wide even playing field for
>>> environment and labour standards. And hopefully one day this could be
>>> achieved. It would be a large endeavour, and may end up hurting 3rd
>>> world countries. Companies may decide to pull out if the costs of wages
>>> and enviro standards are high like they are here.
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>>> Part of me agrees with you, the other part says.... companies are not
>>>> employing people in their factories out of the goodness of their
>>>> hearts, they're doing it to make a larger profit. So if a company were
>>>> to take that stance, I would expect to see them providing a proper
>>>> wage, not just the minimum they can get away with. And everything else
>>>> that we North Americans expect ... overtime, benefits, etc etc. But as
>>>> far as I know, that's not what's happening.
>>>> The children wouldn't even have to work if their parents were given
>>>> proper wages... course that doesn't help street kids at all, but then
>>>> in their case I would expect to see some sort of education program that
>>>> accompanies their work schedule or something.
>>>> And then there's the argument... if were going to help all the
>>>> impoverished people of another country, why don't we first help the
>>>> impoverished people in our own country? If sweatshops really are
>>>> helping people, let's implement/legalize them here.
>>>>
>>>>L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That's interesting.
>>>>> I agree with what Wilson is saying somewhat. Perhaps overseas child
>>>>> labour is the only thing a family has some times. I don't think it's
>>>>> necessarily right or Moral; and it is certainly taken advantage of by
>>>>> the rich countries. But it also may mean food and shelter for some.
>>>>> They may only get a few bucks a day, but in a low wage economy that
>>>>> may be a good wage considering the cost of goods locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> J
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message:
>>>>>> remember that article you were reading in Nakusp about the guy that
>>>>>> founded lululemon? This is him too. Interesting article, even more
>>>>>> interesting comments from readers afterwards.
>>>>>>L
>>>>>>

You appear to have neglected to read the thread. No one is saying anything negative about MEC! Nice try though. Although, I'm not sure they want to be lumped into this company's business practices.

This thread is in response to an article about comments made by the owner of a shop I frequented a great deal. A shop which has been telling whoppers to me, their customer, via corporate image. So, no I do not feel embarassed. Actually, what I feel as a frequent, former, customer of this store and someone who raved about them, is pretty upset.

You seem to be incapable of an argument which has any validity and thus are only able to respond with the 'God and King argument? Which is a form of fascism.

The comment I made in Latin was a play on the fall of our empire. Can't you see it falling? No, it seems that the love of money is blinding quite a few .

The phrase I quoted means, 'No one is wise at all times.

You are quite rude.

The post before this one is mine and is in response to Latinlover's>

Actually, the third post in this thread is in regards to MEC's business practices and there are others as well. I'm legitimately upset by people who take shots at another person without actually oppening their ears first. Chip Wilson is trying to address a reality of the garment business. He has very little tact but he is obviously commited to trying to work around this problem in an ethical manner. Why not support his efforts? When he proves unworthy of that support (which I don't see yet) then break out the moral outrage. He is hiring people to audit his factories, he treats his employees well and he wants to try to maintain the future viability of something that he loves and believes in.

I'm a fascist? An opinion is a form of fascism? I expect more from someone with such a wonderful grasp of irony AND Latin.

Your passion seems a little misplaced. Why would I support this? Child labour is wrong. But, I won't argue the obvious.

There was only one comment about MEC and who knows who wrote it? And, as far as this comany's ethics, perhaps I am missing the obvious, but, I don't see them. Nevertheless, those are his choices. Mine are where I put my money.

As far as fascism goes, here's a little bit of irony. It's about Bush, but 8, 10 and 11 are appropriate, right now, right in this province. Plus, the scapegoating - which may be number 3. Here, it is against, the poor, people on welfare, teachers etc. Perhaps, it is that I, at 48 have in my mind's eye, the memory of a very different Canada. A very different business class. And, a time of true optimism, hope, compassion and values that meant something. We haven't lost this Canada entirely. But, we will soon if we don't do something.

www.bushflash.com/14.html

And, a really cute one found on the same site.

http://www.globalcommunity.org/flash/wombat.shtml

A nyway, Namaste.

So, the salutation, goes.

In Chip's note he posits: "i wonder what will happen in 80 years when there are 15 inhabited planets?" Hmmm. Seems like a rational thought pattern by which to run a major corporation! Oh well, let's screw this planet and its downtrodden, because hey, we'll be in outer space by then! Someone is already in outer space, no?

Lotus yoga wear, if one must be constantly outfitted in it outside of yoga class, is a new local company making more fashion-forward yoga wear. Try some of theirs before they outsource to "The Orient" as Chip calls it. (how archaic).

I won't buy Lulu again. I wouldn't be caught dead in it!

nor will i be found on another planet wearing it

"come to the table with solutions instead of problems."

I totally agree. In that spirit... here's some solutions.

Although they are not one and the same, yoga and buddhism share a lot of characteristics. Although I'd consider myself a rank amateur at both disciplines, I have enough exposure to the ideas they contain to realize that training the mind is as important as toning the body. So, strengthen those core muscles, but exercise your mind as well and take note of Thoreau's quote that Steve Threndyle passed along. To believe that yoga requires a certain style of clothing is perhaps to miss most, if not all of the point of the practice.

Speaking of style. Shop second-hand. My wardrobe is probably a 50/50 mix and with a few obvious exceptions it's hard to tell what's new and what's just new to me. This is a bit easier for men, as we were never (as a group) quite as successfully brainwashed and styles change more slowly, but it does help slow the pace of consumption.

I'd say support unionized clothing workers, but they are getting fewer and far-er between. Instead just support unionized workers period. Their gains will be your gains eventually.

Don't believe the apologists for child labour. If children need to work to help support their family, that's not the solution forgawdsakes, it's the bloody problem. It's one thing for a child to help out with a family business or farm, where they're investing time into something they are a part of, it's another thing for a kid to mow a few lawns, babysit, get a paper route, or work a few hours a day/week after high-school, but quite frankly, this suggestion that it's OK for kids to work in factories elsewhere because once upon a bad old time they used to do it here is shameful and exploitative in the extreme. To countenance such an attitude is to place a different value on other (usually brown/black/yellow) people so fat white fuckers like most of us can live like pashas and it's wrong anyway you slice it.

A rant to the converted I know, but some of the apologists in this thread are making me puke.

Sorry, Lisa. I read your poem and what's to disagree with it?

Still, what is with the consciousness of people who just can't call the Heart of Darkness at lulu for what it is? Sheer stupidity? Willful ignorance? the Marketing Department? Business-Cultists caught in some twirly thought construct? The mantra keeps looping "...but he's really trying ... business is business ... there's no other way" to Chip's Kurtz.

No, he's not trying in any way that makes a difference.

Business can be enlightened and truly for the benefit of the larger community, which is not the case with lululemon.

There is another way which is harder, but better.

For the sake of our planet, our species, and everything else on the ride with us, the other way is the only way.

OK, let's be clear about this. MEC outsources to China. their practices are apparently audited, and MEC buyers routinely make stops to 'inspect' their conditions. one buyer told me that frankly, chinese factories were in MUCH better condition than the ones MEC had looked at in Winnipeg and Montreal. let's put away the goggles under which we view the garment industry for a second and consider a) the fact that SOME chinese clothing manufacturers have heard loud and clear that ethical standards for safety, cleanliness, and 'living wages' are being demanded by North American customers. these are the shops that MEC, and likely Chip, are dealing with.
b) who amongst us is to say what a 'living wage' really is - i was very interested by the post from the woman who works at one job for $25 and another for close to minimum wage. the simple fact is that sometimes you must start at the bottom, whatever your goals are. (the most infamous case of this occurs with pilots, where there is a chronic over-supply of new pilots. i've heard stories where new flight school grads will actually PAY companies so that they can gain the necessary hours of experience. come to think of it, the TYEE quite likely has its own form of labour exploitation - they are called 'interns.'
but i digress (what else is new?). Lululemon stuff was flying out of the stores long before this flap emerged, NOT because it was 'ethically made', but because the tailoring, colour palette, design, sewing, and overall look caught the eye of the most attractive consumer market out there - affluent single (and married, and even moms) who want good looking, well-fitting casual wear. chip is being hoisted on his own petard here to some degree - he should have never made a big deal about it in the first place - but that's the truth. his problems right now have to do with growing his business and sustaining it, which clearly takes him into some 'gray market' territory.
sooner or later, chip will flip the brand. (and many, many clothing companies do - they don't look like they do because huge mega corps keep the brand label to add 'core' authenticity - can you spell 'arc'teryx?). some of those 500 people will stay employed, but many will be let go by the wayside.
and lululemon will be sold in zellers, wal-mart, and superstore. the masses will have cottoned onto it by then, and buy it because 'it's supposed to be really good stuff, and ethically made, to boot!!'
and there will truly be an irony to that!

Non-unionized sweatshops in Canada are sorry places. No argument there.

" b) who amongst us is to say what a 'living wage' really is"

Of all the indices for quality of life, surely this is the easiest to set a standard for? We can posit a minimum standard of medical care, a minimum number of calories necessary to live, agree that such standards should be available to all, and calculate the amount of money necessary to have those things.

Stump

Lisa, I think many of us identify with your words, "Perhaps, it is that I at 48, have in my mind's eye, the memory of a very different Canada." That sense of promise we once felt for this country is under real threat.

Stump, fine solutions as well. Your 50/50 mix sounds way more interesting than either lulus or lemons, a good formula for most things in life. A little old, a little new.

I stand corrected about MEC, if this is so, then.

Well, I'lm still not purchasing from those manufacturers and if there eventually isn't any where else to shop in Canada that doesn't outsource, then when I'm in LA, I'll pick up the top for 3.99 - 7.99 rather than &57.

Hey, Barking, just wanted to clarify, the poem is not one written by me. I really liked It. It is a bit outdated now that we are in 'perpetual war' and our air is becoming more polluted, not less.

Why are the so called 'green companies' and people who don't want to outsource not flexing their muscle and lobbying their MP for promotion of Canadian industry, through, yes, that word, regulation? Why are they not (I know some are) banding together to as J&L posted above, to attempt to standardize labour and comparative living wages, globally? And, I"m sure you'all aren't voting bc liberal this election, right? A living wage is obvious, Steve. And, also, many women my age wear yoga wear.

Yes, Lynn, some society we are creating, aren't we? Look what we are losing. I was thinking today about the whole social darwinism university 101 fad. But, I think ultimately it must not mean what at first it appears. The most aggressive, dominant appearing will not win out. Because, if it is true we are evolving then in order for the species to survive we will have to come to a collective and truly conservative - in so far as conserving the environment etc. - way of being in the world. I was despairing because it is those of us who are somewhat visionary, who understand what awfullness this tide can bring, far beyond the 'self'. While those too dull to see, will keep voting neo-conservative and initially, it is they who will rise to the top, while others who possess what it is we need to survive will be dragged to the bottom. But, I am reminded of Ghandi's saying, which I can't locate right now. But, something like truth and goodness always wins, so do not despair even though it looks as if all is lost. It really isn't. - a terrible paraphrase, but that's it's essence.

because the canadian government has more to gain through trade than through isolationism

because the canadian government has more to gain through trade than through isolationism

because the canadian government has more to gain through trade than through isolationism

... the Canadian government and our people have everything to lose with merging and trading with countries that have atrocious human rights regulations and that's the baseline.

The idea of "a living wage" is not that simple. Not at all. What would we all suggest, then? I bet we come up with varied answers. Stump uses the example that we need a min # of calories as an analogy to min wage- Women need 1400 calories to sustain energy for basal metabolism each day, men a little more. That's pretty standard wherever you are a woman on this planet. But a living wage?? That's a great deal in OUR HEADS. I'd have to disagree that it is at all connected to "quality of life"- the basics, yes- food, access to medicine and shelter- but beyond that?? Let's face it, in our sociey we have gone a bit beyond... "How much $ one makes" that is SO the problem! It's a fixation that is actually eroding our qualtiy of life. I have never in my life earned more than Cdn $30,000 yr and I honestly don't care if I ever do. So why do some people need $100,000, $500,000?? WHAT are they doing with their money? Or are they just more insecure than I; they need to hoard for security? (Or they shop at LuLuLemon a lot). I agree with Steve- who amongst us is to say what a living wage really is? AS IF the majority of us would be content with that anyway!! The guy driving the hummer is likely to think $50 an hour is "a living wage".., he spends $200 a weekend on booze, easily, isn't as healthy as I am, eats crap and pays through the teeth for it (junk food works out way more expensive than natural foods) and yet I live a very high quality of life (I think) and would say, in Vancouver, $20 an hour (tax free :) would be a decent living wage. More than enough.

What would you all reckon is " a living wage"??

Perhaps if you thought of what it is not.
That would clarify it. Because we all know what it isn't.

I think it is when, one is earning enough to live in clean, safe, large enough, (ie not cramped) home for one's family. There is enough money for good high quality food. There is enough for educaton, health care, some recreation, a few dinners and movies out per month, a few magazines, perhaps a few books, sport fees, a family vacation, whether it's camping or traveling. Enough to save for one's retirement, and/or purchase a home. That is hardly an excessive lifestyle.

I don't think it is hard to define because I remember, not that long ago, when everyone who was grown, did make a living wage. The idea that one could work full time and not be able to pay one's bills was unthinkable. We're in trouble. Too many people aren't able to do that. In Alberta, apparently many people in the shelters work! People work in the US and live in their cars. That's where we're headed. Unless, we say no.

Anyway, I really think some of this is moot, because I believe the US is going to go bankrupt. China won't want to call in their debt, but investors already are investing in the Euro.Chavez is refusing to sell oil to the US etc etc. As, they (Norquist, Rove etal) destroy the American way of life, we are going to see a depression in North America, that most of us can't imagine. Canada needs to be really wise. Not very hopeful about it all today. As, I heard about the 'core review' (only they're calling it another name) that the feds are up to. i'd better go to bed.

Peace everyone.

My post above. Oh, core review - rearrangement of gov't to serve the corporation rather than the people, eliminating ministries and programs which serve the people. Become more fascist. We all know what that is like here in BC. Eliminate the Ministry of the Environment and open a Ministry for Resort Development'. It's true, it really is.

that would be a 'corps review.' bad pun, i know. when you are working hard and not being paid what you feel you are worth, it is very, very difficult not to be envious of others who've - in one's opinion - 'caught a break.' money, though, does NOT BUY happiness. being at peace with oneself and one's place in the world does. lisa's graf pretty much nails it as far as i'm concerned (yes, my perfect family vacation is cmaping, NOT disneyland), but boy, there are a lot of seemingly intelligent people out there who've bought into the various false gods of our society. and when your car breaks down for the fifteenth time, you really do think "christ, maybe i will lease one of those new Honda minivans, after all. because i deserve it, dammit!"
as a travel/recreation writer, i'm working for basically the same $$ per word that i was 25 years ago. i have adjusted my lifestyle and keep doing it because it's, well, better than working at chip's store or on the floor at MEC, (let alone sewing any of that stuff for 'piecework'. i often tell people "i'm not one step away from being homeless, i'm one step away from working in retail..."
alas, you will never guess what the highest-paying newspaper in canada ever was for freelancers. hint: his wife was once a columnist at macleans... the world is full of some strange ironies.

Mr Amiel?

mr. black

Mr. Black Amiel

like Lisa and probably many others, i bought the image that Lulu was selling - a local, ethical company. i figured it was worth paying $100 for yoga pants to support a locally-owned and run company. Chip, i find it very hard to believe that you'll be put out of business charging the prices you do unless you outsource. i suggest that's not prudent business sense, but greed, speaking. knowing what i do about your company, i doubt i'll shop there again. after all, i can get yoga pants made in China for far, far less than $100.