"Love of Neighbor Has Grown Cold" at http://www.watchtower.org/library/kn35/article_01.htm

Anonymous - i read you link and i find it interesting that the jehovah witnesses believe that "love between neighbours" is diminishing therefore the end is nigh. Conflict between culturally/racially/ethnically different groups has been around since before the beginning of history; it's hardly a recent phenomenon. I always find it ironic when those with strong religious convictions preach about love and peace. A christian with whom i was having a discussion about politics with stated that the scriptures of the bible say that those who disagree with christians are against god. what kind of chance for peace is there with that kind of thinking? I'm sorry but the bible has been interpreted to teach as much about tolerance as it does about intolerance.

I'm amazed the expression "That's so gay" is still being used! My friends and I used it when I was in grade 8 (a good 20 years ago).

It all comes down to the curriculum, and of course the way kids are raised at home. "The problem is, too few students see their experience in school curriculum", says Dow. For sure. I was a straight white girl and I didn't see my experience reflected!

"Love of Neighbor - A Reality" at http://www.watchtower.org/library/kn35/article_02.htm

"How We Know We Are in 'the Last Days' " (not just paragraph 7) at http://www.watchtower.org/library/dg/article_09.htm

Dear anonymous; At the risk of sounding intolerant, I must take issue with your repeated postings promoting a certain religious magazine. Please don't get me wrong, you have every right to express your views just like I and others do here quite regulary. But, when you continue posting essentially the same promotional message every day on virtually every article on Tyee your efforts begin to smell an awful lot like SPAM. I'd really appreciate reading an original view or thought from you anonymous, but it would seem you are only capable or interested in flogging a magazine that pushes a very narrow view of the world.

Perhaps not fear but hate drives the ostracizing of gay received persons/behaviour. Competition by eliinating others is what society now does,not brotherhood , not love ,not compassion,but hatred pure simple hatred. Chose an affinity group or an identifiable group for that matter.HHHHate can reduce the competition for jobs,in tight economy, openings in higher education ,etc. This society allows any means to acheive a goal short of murder. Our culture dotes on border line sociopathic persons setup as examples, most assume these are examples of wrong,what not to do, but increasingly some persons take examples as leitmotif of exactly what to do.

Yes, anonymous, I echo Allan. Lets hear an original thought from you.

I was raised in a fundamentalist religious family, so your views are not unknown to me, but unimpressive in their "religious tract" dimensions. To which there is even a certain "pathetique".

Don't ask me how I find myself in this thread. It was the first one on the list, two single malt glasses and a couple "classical" pieces later. Which an "older" man should have no more of eh, if he's going to seriously talk life and politics. :-)

Gays, right? The "modern" left is really bogged down on this issue isn't it? Though actually, now when I look back, it started way back when I was a young radical, doing the house party circuit on weekends-, and all the queers and young "moderns", that have always been way out of proportion on the North American "left", in my view, thought I was strange because I was a young married with a whole bunch of kids.

I mean," Hey, man. The hip thing to do is, do ladies liberation a favour and have a vasectomy. How can you call yourself a progressive when you still have uncut nuts?"

These now oldies, with their second or third wives or husbands, are all ooooing and ahhhing, with a sad look in their eyes over somebody elses kids, or nieces and nephews, and dead from or nursing AIDS.

Face it kiddies, I'm not advocating picking on or making anybody's life unnecessarily miserable. Live and let live, for all our quirks, quarks, and genetic/hormonal fuckups. But the great majority of the species are straight, as in hetero, and if you are outside the norm of the breeding herd, you are likely always going to have something of a problem relating and convincing everybody else that you are just another kind of normal. Which you are, I agree, at a certain, stretch the point level. Like it's normal that their is a certain predictable amount of Downes Syndrome, schizophrenia, and spina bifida, ad infinitum, within X thousands births.

Everybody has to face up to reality. Like I have to face up to that I've got psoriasis through my family line. That's life.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't attempt to educate our kids to be tolerant of "differences" outside the "norm". (And I think there is a norm.) 'Cause we should. And no doubt, as time goes on and folks get a better understanding of the complexities of life, reproduction and genetics, and mind fucks, folks have become and will become even more, tolerant of the fuckups of being human.

Perfection, there ain't likely to never be however, no matter from where you look at that. And "different" folks attempting to impose their will on the main breeding herd certainly, are likely to meet with disappoinment. The best we can hope for, I think, looking at it from here, is a rough and ready kind of working it out, generation to generation. You leave me my space and stay out of my face, I'll leave you yours. Which is probably about the best the twain will ever meet. Certainly in my dwindling lifetime.

I've got a sudden yen for popcorn. The food of the Gods. Ya think, anonymous? And the Godesses, of course. :-D

allan, 12/3/2004 12:07:53 PM, writes about the frequency of comments referring to various articles on www.watchtower.org, related to articles on www.thetyee.ca. Google Search: anonymous. The home page of The Tyee has its own search function. Also, the home page of the other web site has its own search function.

I'd like to recommend a book about the experience of growing up Jehovah's Witness: Barbara Grizutti Harrison's "Visions of Glory". If you want to understand the totalitarian mindset, and its impact on the young mind, that's the place! Sociologists have a special prize for the Jehovah's Witnesses: They are the only religious group known to history that has predicted the end of the world more than three times and actually, and not disappeared. If you want to discourage door-knockers, just suddenly ask them, "hey, what happened in 1975?" They'll beat a fast retreat rather than take up the discussion!

Barbara Grizzutti Harrison's harrowing account of growing up Jehowah's Witness, and how she finally left, can be found at: www.exjws.net/vg.htm

Ah Coyote, I love your posts relating to "breeding herds". True, true, heterosexuality is here to stay, and is more a "norm" than homosexuality, but as far as the "sad look in oldies' eyes", no reason why they couldn't have adopted, if they really wanted children. But that is probably simply your interpretation of the look in their eyes.

I recently attended a workshop with Dr. Philip Ney, a Victoria psychiatrist/psychologist (he's both), who told me that he considered himself to be homophobic, and that "homophobia" is a normal reaction to behaviours which are counter-productive to the propagation of the species and normal for those wishing to avoid contracting fatal diseases or engage in life-threatening lifestyles. Consequently, it will never be eradicated. Nonetheless, I agree that homophobic epithets are distressingly prevalent and I support efforts to eliminate them (but not with the strategies promoted by GALE-BC) A study just published in the British Journal of Psychiatry found that 43% of GLB subjects had an identifiable mental illness. "Gay" is the most egregious hijacking of a word meaning in history of the English language. "Questioning" students ought not to be encouraged to "explore" their sexual options--that appears to be very bad advice according to the studies I've read. As far as "toxic environments", as an evangelical Christian working in a high school for 14 years, I heard profanity on a daily basis, including the staff room and from colleagues visiting me in my office, and frankly, it was very unpleasant. But no one's talking about creating a tolerant environment for Christians.

I had assumed, from Anonymous's postings throughout the Comments section of various stories in the Tyee, that he was actually a spambot of some kind. Now it appears that he may indeed be a person. However, he's still not making any sense.

Chris Kempling, your comments are interesting. Are you trying to suggest that Dr. Nay believes we are born with a reflex control that will stop us from "contracting fatal diseases or engage in life-threatening lifestyles"? Wow. What is that reflex, a choking sensation, breaking out in hives, the sweats, the heeby-jeebies, or does your god toss bolts of lightning at such sinners? I realize if I put my hand on a hot stove element I'm going to get burned, but if I get the hots for another man or my wife opts for a more feminine hand to caress her, the pearly gates will be slammed shut in our faces? And could you please explain what "Consequently, it will never be eradicated", refers to. Did your good doctor mention anything about human actions changing or evolving through factors like high-density living, the lifting of the dark veils of religion from human understanding or perhaps a revulsion at the brutal reactions of Christians to anything outside their norm? And could you please expand on your statement that 43 per cent of gays and lesbians are likely afflicted with a recognizable mental illness. I'm not a doctor, a gay, a lesbian or a christian, yet I sense that your 43 per cent would likely apply to truck drivers, house wives, teachers, politicians or even homophobics. Now, as for your experience in having to deal with profanity on a daily basis from your teaching colleagues, I would suspect some of them might just think your statements above are about as profane as you can get for someone who claims to be educated.

Dr. Nay eh? if you google "doctor" nay, you'll quickly discover that he's a raging anti-choicer. He "studies" the effects on children who's mother had an abortion. He claims that the children of aborted siblings (interesting concept) have a greater chance of being neglected and abused. No real evidence (other than anecdotal) is supplied but he likes to remind people that he's a "doctor" and therefore, he must be right. It always boggles the mind when the religious right usurps science and scientific inquiry. my feeling is that they typically support their arguements with a list of credential rather than any hard hypothesis testing. so, mr. kempling, why are we so intolerent of christian? well, it's not that we're intolerent of religion per se. At least of me, there's a particular brand of religion that concerns me: fundamentalism. Just like islamic fundamentalist, christian fundamentalists usually grasp at straws, twisting truth and the true message of their religion to advances an adjenda that would rid the world of anyone who dares oppose their very narrow world view.

I'm going to call Dr Ney and ask if homosexuality may be the definition for a normal reaction to behaviours which DO propogate the species to the extent that the destruction of the planet, the environment and every living person's mental sanity is at serious stake.

In answer to Allan's request: James Warner, Eamonnn McKeown, Mark Griffin, Kahterine Johnson, Angus Ramsay, Clive Cort, and Michael King (2004). Rates and predictors of mental illness in gay men, lesbians and bisexual men and women: Results from a survey based in Dngland and Wales. British Jouranl of Psychiatry, 185, 479-485. Surveyed 1285 LGB men and women, 43% presented symptoms of a mental disorder as defined the Clinical Interview Schedule, revised. 31% had attempted suicide. This research supports other sutdies done in Holland, New Zealand and Australia. And if so called "homophobia" was the cause of this distress, one would expect much higher rates of mental distress in the US where homosexuality is much less tolerated than in the Netherlands. This is not the case--the rates are similar in both countries. Being gay is clearly not so gay. Dr. Chris Kempling Psy.D. R.C.C. Registered Clinical Counsellor Quesnel

chris, the author's of this article show a relationship between homosexuality and mental disorder and state that it is a POSSIBILITY that it is related to discrimination. i find it ironic that you and Ney use this to justify homophobia. furthermore, they researchers admit to using 'snowball' sampling methods. now, since you are a doctor yourself, i'll assume that you've taken your graduate research methods class; regardless, i'll recap snowball sampling for you. Snowball sample is a method of non-probability sampling. basically, the researchers find a homosexual, then ask the indiviudal for a list of names of other homosexuals. Using non-probability sampling means that you cannot make statements about the population (in this case homosexual men and women) base on your sample statistics. Furthermore, snowball sampling is only used when research is being conducted on an "underground" population that wishes to avoid any attention. Most gay men and women that i know do not live there lifestyles underground; they are, in fact, out and proud. Also, although i wasn't able to read the article - just the abstract - i wonder if they controlled for there measure (i.e. what's the prevalence in the general population). BTW - i tried to access the article through my the uni. of victoria but for some reason they've stopped subscribing to this particular journal. Anyway "dr." kempling, if the cause and effect conclusions can be considered significant (which they can't) would you say that this is a reason to fight against homophobia - if 43% of gay men and women actually have some form of a mental disorder because of the discrimination that they have to face (from people like you and Ney) then perhaps we should look at ways to combat that discrimination. And like dr. ney, you yourself have to parade your credentials as if it gives you some credibility but the links that you've drawn have dashed that hope. good day to you sir!

sorry about the horrible grammer, but people like Kempling just raise my blood pressure. As a result, i rushed a response.

Michael's criticism's of the British study are quite valid. Snow-ball sampling is a limitation. Nonetheless, the authors found the results interesting and were able to convince a professional journal to publish it--and they are consistent with studies in other countries. Obviously, readers have figured out that I'm a "boat rocker". Programs to eliminate "homophobia" may reduce the name calling that Dr. Dow wants to accomplish, but it only puts a band-aid on the real problem. I believe the etiology of same sex attraction is rooted in relational dysfunction in early childhood, often compounded by pedophilic victimization, and as such, is a developmental aberration, not an innate condition. SSA can be changed with therapy, and I believe that those with unwatned SSA would be much better off if they were presented with a balanced picture of their therapeutic options without all the polarizing social politics. Those who are happy with their SSA are welcome to it, but their intention to brainwash everyone that it is healthy,normal and wonderful is absurd and flies in the face of ample evidence of negative impact. I do not justify "homophobia"--it's a misnomer--I've yet to meet anyone yet with a genuine phobia towards homosexual people. But I won't be bullied into silence just because I have an alternate point of view on this contentious matter. Chris Kempling Quesnel

Chris Kempling, I 'm afraid I have to take the same stance as your peers and the courts and argue that you are simply practicing hatred, nothing more and nothing less. (READERS SHOULD GOOGLLE CHRIS KEMPLING AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES) You are so obsessed that your narrow-minded christian fundamentalist views of the world have been so tarnished by the light of of rational thought it seems you can no longer objectively offer any advice to young people. You reek of hatred - blind irrational raging hatred that smells much like bigotry. The study you off is ludicrous for someone who calls himself a doctor. Your claim that the USA, where official hatred of gays and lesbians is rampent, isn't suffering from stress overload within its general population, makes me wonder what planet you are on. Zealots involved in 17th century witch trials and the subsequent ritual killings offered more rational thought than you've managed so far.

I never thought to google chris kempling and now that i have, wow, what an eye opener. And here i was going to apologize for my earlier harsh criticism. i'm all for free speech but when it comes to people who expose hate, I truly believe that they should be bullied into silence. It’s pathetic that kempling has to hide behind the free speech argument and Christianity (whatever happened to love thy neighbour?) to justify his blatant bigotry. There’s a good reason you get blasted every time you spew your garbage kempling, it’s too bad you’ll most likely never get it. What’s the obsession with homosexuality anyway? Also, where in the bible does it say we, as good Christian soldiers, must battle against the gays and lesbians?

This story touched a chord with me. One of my very good friends in high school was gay and unfortunately living in northwestern ontario in a very small town. He lived in fear every day and was beaten up more times that I can count. This must be stopped.

Oh, Chris Kempling. What you seem to be implying by quoting the studies linking the high incidence of mental disorders with homosexuality is that as a result of their mental disorders, gay people are also on the "wrong" track with regards to their choice of sexual partners. Could it be that maybe because gay people are faced with so much more adversity than straight people (for this we can blame intolerance) they are more likely to be depressed, suicidal, etc? I have quite a few gay friends and aquaintances and I can say that those who had intolerant parents were way more likely to have problems dealing with their homosexuality. Also, in response to your first post - homophobia is actually not a natural response designed to keep us safe from disease. You and Doctor Ney are actually in the minority on this one - most Canadians have no problem with homosexuals (see statistics regarding gay marriage, for example). On top of this, lesbians are probably less likely get diseases from sexual activity, and diseases like AIDS are not relegated to gay populations - not even close. Can someone please explain to me why so many people are afraid of homosexuals? I just don't get it! On a third note, please refrain from advocating reparative therapy to your students... it can be very harmful.

Good call, Allan. Kempling, first of all I'd like to say I'm thoroughly pleased you are no longer able to work as a teacher in this province.

There are just as many health risks related to heterosexual "unions" as homosexual ones. Stop being ridiculous in that respect. Your Christian views are not being silenced- how dare you (or anyone who does the same) hide behind religion, giving it a bad name in the meanwhile, to veil your hatred. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people like me (raised Roman Catholic) shun religion and recoil from it. My Mum is a true Christian- if my brother or I brought home a gay friend or were gay ourselves she would treat them/us like anyone else. Your twisted views are not welcome, plain and simple. Kudos to the BC Supreme Ct ruling.

Off the top let me say I am a mother, a grandmother, a great-grandmother and a dyke. I was raised in the fundamentalist playpen and the result of that is that I am not a christian and do not believe the Bible is anything other than a book. I would ask the good doctor Kempling, if your Bible were to become law in Canada tomorrow would we again be allowed to own slaves? Leviticus says I may have both male and female slaves. Exodus says I can sell my daughter into slavery. Will people who work on the Sabbath really be killed, and if so, will they just have their throats slit or will they be stoned to death? Will the stones be free or will I have to pay, and if so, will that be by individual stone or by the bagfull? Will we all have to stop eating prawns, shrimp, oysters and clams because Leviticus forbids eating shellfish...people like YOU are the reason people like ME wouldn't go inside a church:- and I'm sure you are aware that If any of ye be the reason even one of these, my lambs, turn away from me, it would be better for you had you never been born. As soon as I read the part of your first posting which said you had attended a lecture by Dr. Ney I wondered about your mental stability. Are you aware, sir, the psychiatric community now considers homophobia to be a sign of paranoid schizophrenia? Personally, I don't give a fat rat's ass how deranged you are, just know that if you or any of your ilk are to in any way at all interfere with any of my grandchildren the many and varied forms of torment, torture and death outlined in Leviticus will seem pale compared to what will come down on your head from Grandma. I am glad you are no longer allowed to teach in public schools. I shudder to think what kind of hell you would heap on some poor kid who was born with a prediliction to "gay", or who was one of the many in this nation born gender-ambivalent. I don't have any idea at all how you envision your god, but MY god doesn't make mistakes of this magnitude. I try to be a "good" person, I try very hard to follow the teachings of Big House, I try harder than you will ever know to set a good example for my grandchildren and then along comes a bag of slime and I revert to my coal town upbringing. I try to remind myself that the kind of hatred you spew has got to come from a place of terror, I try to tell myself to be kindly and ... I fail. Spew your shit near any of mine and I'll have your guts for shoe strings. You and Dr Ney should be wearing brown shirts.

Oh, God, thank you Anne. After endless years of flack for my indiscriminate eye, I believe there may be a pot o' bold at the end of the painbow. Realizing that love related to people, not genitals, was one of the greatest gifts of my life. A gift that great is never free, and I paid in social isolation from my peers; however, I was blessed with the love of both men and women who also saw love as human, not genital. If it matters, I am a woman, and a monogamous woman; just one that discovered there is only one love. Love! Why should I continue to deal with the "Doktor" Nay-Nay's and the Christ Kemplings of this world, whose vision is clouded with labial dreams? Get over it, you schmucks, and worry about your own relationships. If perhaps the great masses would stay out of my bed, they'd be more secure in thier own.

As a heterosexual female who has had some training in the area of homosexuality and homophobia, I would like to point out that Chris Kempling's posting of 12/5/2004 at 10:07:27 is full of misconceptions. Same sex preference is NOT related to early childhood victimization or pedophilia, IS completely normal, and is not considered to be a mental illness in any way by the American Medical Association (yes, back in earlier years it was considered an illness, and women who were "hysterical" were thought to have a wandering womb!). Homosexuality, bisexuality and identifying as a member of the opposite gender is just part of the normal range of behavior for humans (and other animals). SSA cannot be "counselled" away, nor should it be. People don't "choose" to be homosexual. Why would they choose to be "bashed", discriminated against, etc. if it is so easy to be heterosexual? And we ignore the fact that some people are born physically ambiguous (male and female attributes) and we force them to choose! Other than basic moral principals (e.g. don't harm others), I think we should embrace differences, not condemn them. Homosexuality IS healthy, normal and wonderful! If you want to check out a religious community that feels the same way, check out Unitarian Universalism http://www.uua.org/.

I checked it out, Robyn. No thank you.

this is a gay site