In fact, tipping does not exist in all countries. In Japan, rendering good service is a point of pride, no matter what the perceived social level of the server. A tip would suggest that the server is motivated by something other than a job well-done. With no potential extras hanging over the transaction -- in a cafe, a clean taxi (in which the driver wears white gloves!), or a door-to-door delivery -- everyone seems more comfortable. And a notable benefit appears to be that people are much more willing to spend on service.

Add up the GST and PST and double it. That's the tip. Barring fisticuffs with the server.

It's too easy to enable and justify poverty level jobs and I won't participate in it.

"...demanded my meal be comped" - What is this word, "comped"?

Tipping is a fascinating conflict point between the iron rice bowl theory of a decent day's wage for a decent day's work and a more entreprenural approach. When I could be bothered with the mental arithmetic the way I tipped was to start with a theoretical 25% and deduct points. But that was tiring and there was always the "server having a bad day/kitchen inhabited by psycho chef/there but for the Grace of God go I" factor so I went direct to the 20% rule in restaurants and 15% in pubs where I did not order food. (Skill has to count for something and bringing or asking if a customer would like another pint when you see a nearly empty glass is not high skill.) The point about tipping is that it is a tax free source of income for people who are paid rather badly. (And please don't try to tell me that wait staff declare every penny, heah, right.) A twenty dollar tip on a $100.00 bill is the after tax equivilent of around 25 to 30 bucks. Which seems more than reasonable. I suspect if you asked most wait staff would you prefer to be paid a straight $15-20 an hour but forbidden tips there would be very few takers...but this is the net so let's hear from wait staff. (Great article by the way.)

I'd be far more willing to tip (I still do regardless) if it were just as customary for servers to share a decent portion of their tips to the bussers/line cooks. Their selfishness just ain't that compelling really...

I have a friend who, when we go out for dinner, refuses to tip. He says it's a custom he does not believe in. I think he's just cheap!!! I end up covering the tip for his cheapness. Arrgh!

I work full-time. Eight-and-a-half hour shifts, four or five days a week. I know people who work half as much, and make as much me because of their tips. It's hard to think that I have to work twice as hard as servers to make the same wage. I'm going into my fourth year in college, and when I finally get my diploma maybe there will be a serving job at the white spot waiting for me. In any case, if you need a good tip that's not monetary, politely tell your server, "You want a tip? Don't smoke in bed."

Remind me not to go for dinner with your friend Bingo.

Tips are traditionally shared out with kitchen staff and bussers. A niece of mine hostesses at one of the hot Yaletown joints and makes a decent dollar as a result of the tip sharing.

Traditionally yes... but only on the honour of the server. I guess the best way to make sure that non-servers get their share is to pay using plastic... I've talked to plently of servers who laugh when I ask them about sharing their tips. They say they deserve it after climbing over everyone to get the serving job, which for non-salary line cook is really condensending in you ask me.

In Australia, waiters don't expect to be tipped because they're paid fair wages. I found the service much more consistent and friendly there althought that apparently is changing because they're starting to expect tips from travellers. The tipping I find bizarre is the 'karma jar' or tip jar at take-out coffee shops and even convenience stores.

I tip in restaurants and bars (have worked as a waitress to pay off my university debt, the tips really helped AND we had to share our tips), but I'm against tip jars. You see them everywhere now, Starbucks, food counters, etc. I've been told the logic behind those little buggers is the minimum wage people get doing these jobs, but then what about the sales person in a clothing store? I'm sure they make minimum wage there as well. I'm not sold.

"It's too easy to enable and justify poverty level jobs and I won't participate in it." Nice on, Dana. 'Nuff said.

Having worked in the kitchen of a number of restaurants, it is rare to be 'tipped out' at any significant amount. Some of the unscrupulous restaurants, like Earls, will withhold the 'tipout' for their underpaid kitchen staff for months as a way of 'enticing' them to stay on. If they are fired, no tipout. Concidentally, many people are fired at places like that, often before they reach the 3 month 'human rights' threshold where employers actually have obligations to justify firing. I've never liked tipping, and I hated it when I was making minimum wage in the back, and seeing waiters/waitresses walking through with wads of cash and failing to tipout. I do it though, because it's a societal norm and life's too short to pick small fights.

Do you tip before or after tax? C

I do tip in restaurants - if service is good- although I'm not happy about having to do it. It shouldn't be necessary as servers should get a living wage. It does reduce them to the role of servants. Calculate tips before taxes- and not double the PST+GST- together they are already 14.5 %. I do not tip my hairdresser who charges twice as much as those in the walk-in salons. I have seen others tip him though. He's supposed to be a 'professional' and has all sorts of award certificates on the walls. He should feel insulted at being tipped!

If I can clear up one of the "mysteries of tipping" for the author. In every restaurant I've ever served (or bussed) in, servers are responsible for tipping out the kitchen and bussing staff based on a percentage of what they sell during their shift. Servers at times have to pay out of pocket to the rest of the staff if they've had a great night for sales but a lousy night for tips - and a lousy night for tips is in most cases not reflective of lousy service. A little more research (perhaps involving a short stint as an actual server) would have cleared up this and other mysteries of tipping - and would very likely have resulted in the author developing a more generous attitude toward the people who serve him - regardless of the occasional accident involving wet pants.

Ha! - Mr. Pink had it right, the rest of us are suckers. Owners of Restaurants and Bars are the ones getting the long end of this deal. They're able to treat their employees like they earn 4k/month even though they're paying them less than 1k. What a sham. Class, on the other hand, is under rated. If someone goes the extra mile, show them that you appreciated it with a little extra "sum'm sum'n". "Thank you very much" doesn't pay my bills. I want money.

why tip? more importantly, why tip food service, barbers and hair stylists, and the odd cab driver at the expense of an entire service class who work just as hard at providing good (or better) service? a very good friend, and a person who delivers excellent service, can count on one hand the number of tips recieved while driving a tow truck in any given ten-year period. I have worked a decade (off and on) in the retail bicycle trade, and I too can count the number of tips on my fingers. both of us endevour to provide excellent service; fast, courteous, efficient. In part, doing so makes our own work day easier, but the customer benefits both directly, and indirectly, but they more often than not wouldn't think of tipping for that service. And neither do most people who 'work for tips' in the (broadly defined) hospitality industry. I can't count, at least on my fingers, the number of times I have tried to discuss with a variety of 'servers' why they demand tips of their customers, but fail to consider that other people would benefit both economically, and mentally, from a slightly more generous spreading of the wealth. And remember, if the service is really awful, there are always pennies.

I spent six years working in the hospitality industry as a busser, hostess, dishwasher, prep cook, and server. None of the jobs paid exceptionally well, except a couple high end ones where the tips actually made the difference. As a server you deal take the brunt of anything that goes wrong in the kitchen, bar, or restaurant and service the needs of dozens of individuals at the same time. It's not easy. Screw ups occur and when they do those who have walked in a waiter's shoes will make sure a server pays for it financially. However, in most places those servers still HAVE to tip the kitchen, mangement and support staff regardless. There are incidents when servers have paid to serve customers! I realize it's not a custom in every country, but in North America people do indeed live off their tips, which is why their wages are minimum and why they are expected to share with the rest of the staff. Not tipping a server for spilled on you may seem fair. But anyone who has worked as a server would love to have you walk in their sole-beaten shoes for one evening and see what you'd do then.

A point of clarity from someone who's worked at a number of foodservice establishments: kitchen staff rarely get tipped out unless it's at a restaurant/bar that has structured tip-sharing...some places take all the tips and average them out to every server, giving the kitchen staff a cut as well as busboys...but usually, servers keep it all to themselves and kitchen staff that are stuck in front of hot stoves and ovens don't get anything...consider how good your food was the next time you get bad service and tip the cooks instead...I assure you, it's never frowned upon and recognizing someone's good work is always a way to make their day

In my experiance, long and world-wide, where there is a 'tip pool', an agregate and progressive (based on hours worked)fund that is distributed to non-serving staff on a regular basis, the usual contribution by servers is 1% of their 'ring out' (total sales) per shift. Bartenders usually have another deal going, as booze is where the money is and their speed and skill makes a difference in the totals. Bussers also rely on the timely largess of the server, as they are key to 'turnover'.

I once tipped a snooty waiter at the airport lounge 5 cents and he threw it back at me. We both made our points and I smile every time I recall the incident.

I think someone said that the owner is the one who is at the advantage. He gets top rated wait staff at bargain prices and Joe Public gets to supplement the wait staffs wages. Here is the US the wait staff are paid approximately $2.00/hr and are expected to live off their tips. Personally I think that is crap. As a patron I am expected to pay the staff's wages. I think I already do that when I pay for an overpriced meal with mediocre service. I usually succumb with a 15% tip regardless of service and quality. My only recourse is to withhold my patronage which I do. I also will exercise my right to call the manager/owner and voice my complaints regarding poor service or poor quality. I do this after I have left as I too have heard stories of added extras. Maybe in a perfect world all tipping would be banned and we would then pay the price of goods sold without the interpretation required in the tip. I don't get tipped in my profession (finance). When was the last time you tipped your banker or your broker? Tipping is an archaic practice that should be abolished. Just pay your employees a fair wage and charge a fair price for your product. end

I must say that service quality in Vancouver is so uneven (and often appalling) that to make a tip amount a virtually unwavering standard of 15% is ridiculous. Raise the wages, encourage apprenticeship and make it a proud profession like they do in places like Mexico City, and continental Europe. Half the time people here make no secret of the fact they'd rather not be serving you.

I have an expectation that I will get good service, a decent meal and not be approached by a server who instantly wants to be my best buddy throughout the meal. If I don't get that, I will reduce the tip. If the service, meal or attitude are shit I have no hesitation stiffing the server. I regularly tip 15%, usually close to 20% and ocaisionally more for extremely great service meal or extra special feature. My Daughter who is a gratuity worker, tips for anything and we have big fights at restaurants about the level of service.

Then there are those hyper-managed places like the Cactus Club and Milestones where you're instantly acosted by the Stepford-waitperson whose every breath is smooth, smile bright and banter tweaked for maximum up-sell. Oh, and the 20-something waitresses in tight black outfits specially designed to hit the 25% tip range with the business lunch crowd.

Can someone definite "good service" for me? One rarely gets a glass of water without having to practically beg for it. Another norm is to be ignored until it comes time for the credit card, when all of a sudden there is a brief performance of solicitousness. For this I customarily pay 15% in case I am recognized next time as the Cheap Asshole Whose Food Shall Contain Spit. (Occasionally I have paid more, because some restaurants neglect to inform us that they have already added the gratitutity.)

That someone feeds another is nothing short of a small miracle to me. Same amazement goes to people bringing stangers bags or carboard boxes full of food, in their (barely afforded) cars. Unless a food provider is plain and deliberately mean, it is pure cretin not to tip.

I spent 12 years in the service industry and have done it all, hosting, bussing, bartending and serving. Without tips, I never would have been able to survive. There were a few comments that wer legit. but need clarification. First, to Darryl, due to the nature of the restaurant buisness, a full eight hour shift is hard to come by. Usually a 'rush' only lasts about two hours so the most a server is likely to get is a 4 hour shift. While this may seem like a luxury to some, think of what happens when it comes time for benefits like getting paid time-and-a-half for stats, etc. Also, if for some reason you lose your job or need to take leave, the benefits you are entitled to are measly. I was off on WCB for two months and had to live off 55% of 24/hrs a week at minimum wage. Second, I'm kind of tired of hearing the "I don't get it so why should you" argument. i have it constantly with my mother who works in a large retail store. I chose to serve and put up with the crap it involves, working until 2 in the morning or later; putting up with sleazy drunk guys; knowing that labour standard don't mean a damn in the hospitality industry; etc., because it meant getting tips and living a few nothces above the poverty line. It's not fair to begrude someone choosing a job because they know it pays better than non-tipped jobs. Whether or not it's archaic and inane, tipping is a fact of life in some industries and people who work in those industries choose to do so for that reason. a final note, there have been times when i have not tipped but i always tell the server why, most often by leaving a note. if you don't tip because of bad service but fail to let the server or his/her manager know, the server will just think you are a cheap bastard and move on.

comped is "complimentary," Bonnie, as in free. The meal should have been comped if the manager had any class. Obviously it was a mistake, and this lady showed a lot of class by not bitching out and throwing a tantrum. I figure a tip in the amount of the gst is a good base guideline.

I mean gentleman, sorry Peter.

jeepers creepers and I mean gst + pst is a good base guidline, less for poor service.

Servers have to tip out bussers, bartenders, the kitchen, sometimes the restaurant and sometimes into a dine and dash fund. Stiffing a server means that you're essentially stealing money from them as they have to pay all these people based on total sales, not total tips. So if you get shitty service i think a 5% tip is in order.

Oh come now Kerry, lets give the world of wait staff some credit - a server fully knows why they didn't get a tip - only two reasons: cheap bastard or poor service. A server with more than two weeks on the job knows why they didn't get tipped. No need to "let some know".

Sorry: "let someone know."

This is exactly why I don't eat out (that and the food is artery hardening and expensive). There really should be a self-serve option like at the gas station. Being neither a traditionalist nor of European descent, I don't think I'm doing anyone any favours by being forced into being obliged to tip - especially since minimum wage waiters who need extra income are at the fast food joints - and they hardly get tipped as far as I know. A high school graduate said she was thinking of going to college and took a job waiting tables to bide the time until registration, but found that she was making close to $40,000 (US) a month - more than half tax free tipping - that she decided not to go for the education. The only time I tip willing is when I travel to developing countries and the service is not only impeccable - but the cost of both the service and the food is hardly a percentage worth of what one would earn here.

I believe that tips should be given, but if the service is bad, why reward them for a mistake?

Several points occur here.

One, a lap is not an easy target to hit, even with a full glass of icewater. Mr. Tupper, dare I suggest you might have treated your server with less than the full measure of respect one might expect or demand from people we meet in a commercial transaction?

Two, Staff costs run about 40% in a decent restaurant's budget, The other 60% covers food, building, equipment and everything else. If you eliminate tipping, expect menu prices to about double, and employers to try to swipe the difference somehow. Tips are a direct transaction, you are paying the performer for that part of the show that you yourself receive.

Third, how interesting how resentful people are about having to give money to other people, when it isn't compulsory. However important service is to the experience, they let you in and make payment optional, you are aware the servers are not really otherwise paid, yet you complain, and complain, and that's pretty cheap.

Food is only part of what you eat out for, and not the biggest part. You go to be served, to impress a date, or your boss, or your mother on mother's day. You get a private dance from a trained performer and it makes you feel fine, doesn't it? You get to be urbane, or gourmet or smooth, and you get a staff to make it all happen for you.

Just leave the bloody tip, OK? It's the best bargain left in our rapidly deteriorating society.

Wow tipping is such a big issue, who knew? The restaurants and the government should get together and have tips included in the final bill, divide it up in a weighted-percentages style sharing and there you go. Bad service can ,of course, be remedied by speaking with the manager or writing a letter to the restaurant.

Thanks, Bailey. I'm also surprized at the resentment people have when, ultimately, tipping is a choice. Don't tip if you really don't feel like it! But, of course, it's cheap not to tip, and there have been some good points as to why we should -- in order not to justify institutionalized poverty levels and because serving is a 'private dance' so to speak. 15 to 20% -- more if it's beyond gracious service. However, I definitely would not have tipped if I had been doused in water -- call it a direct reflection of the experience we normally pay for.

I am surprised that no one has mentioned how the word 'tip' orignated. It means very simply "To Insure Promptness" and that is how I have always looked at it. Good service must be prompt. If it isn't a small or no tip, with an explanation has been my practice. Few in the service industries know the meaning of 'tip'.

Here's my sad story. Today, at a downtown winebar/cafe on Georgia Street, I complained about the dryness of my sandwich -- and honestly, I very rarely complain about the food at any eatery. But honestly, the sandwich wasn't up to their usual standards. At any rate, the waitress, after my meal was finished, totally gave me the silent treatment, practically pushed me out the door by bringing me my bill promptly after the meal, and then a guy from the kitchen comes out and starts giving me dirty looks! What on earth is going on? And all I wanted was a better-tasting sandwich. Needless to say, I had no choice but to NOT leavea tip, because the waitress was so cold to me after my complaint. Problem is, now, ala George Costanza, I feel like I'm basically banned from the place.

let's not forget that waiters aren't the only one expecting double pay - the pizza delivery boy, the messenger, the bellboy/girl. there goes bailey's ambience theory for paying for the gourmet performance (maybe one should be asked if they would like the upscale or downscale version of the service - with or without the smile). the reality is that. I think it is a little presumptious to expect to be paid twice - and anyone as obnoxious as to give out details of famous "non tippers" don't deserve a cent above minimum due a total lack of character. if you don't like the gig, get another job - nobody tips the bus driver or the garbage man - but they have to deal with a lot of client crap without gratitude.

Nice article, Peter... Quite the issue, obviously, look at all the comments. I have served as a restaurant waitress, banquet waitress and worked in a cafe. The cafe job was the hardest. The owner there was also the best. She was awesome- treated us like family; Evelyn's cafe in Banff. She also paid us a fair wage and the restaurant jobs didn't. The tips at Evelyn's were shared and mostly from locals who were regular patrons. The posters above who mentioned the slave wages paid by owners and the patrons basically paying the server's wage are bang on. I do not believe in this "If you don't tip you're cheap" nonsense. It is NOT common practice in all countries. Tipping in Asia is very uncommon or nonexistent. We have taken it to ridiculous extremes in this part of the world- like being considered "cheap" if you don't tip- no matter the service, no matter that you are tipping AFTER 14.5 % tax. I know for some people it's a power trip to leave a big tip- and I could just as easily say that as "you're cheap if you don't tip". My friend bought a condo with the tip money she made managing a bar for several years. I'm sure she could have done the same thing with wages (or maybe not because of taxes, right?) but this way the (mostly drunk) patrons financed her home- not the owner of the pub where she worked. And she worked damn hard.

Tip if the service is good; don't if it isn't. If you're from a culture that doesn't tip- do what you feel is right. It is NOT a requirement by any means.

It would be interesting to find out how much a 20-year-old waitress at hooters or the cactus club makes in tips, compared to a what a 50-year-old waitress at Troll's restaurant makes. It just seems that at so many restaurants the waitresses are all one body type, with exception to a few of course. It would also be interesting to find out how many people actually go to Hooters for the food.

If you can afford to go out to some place where people are paid minimum wage to serve you food and drink, then you can afford to tip. No matter what miserable excuse you use to rationalize not tipping, the real reason is that you're just too damn cheap.

Jf - sticks and stones may break bones - if one who doesn't tip is cheap - imagine the stingy character of he or she who despises him for his lack of extra dough to make cookies. your logic is a little backwards - one who eats at the four seasons may be able to afford to tip - or feel obliged to. But eating at cheap place means that the patrons earn little more - if not less - then the servers.

JF, remember that tipping is OPTIONAL for good, prompt service. So if the service is otherwise, the customer is actually obliged to NOT tip. If the waitress/waiter is slow, unavailable or unfriendly, then I'd sooner walk to the kitchen and order the food myself, ala Nandos Chicken. Wait staff are expendable... the quality ones survive, wherheas tip-expectant ones like yourself don't last long in the hospitality industry.

By the way, Darryl, I actually do go to Hooter's for the food -- specifically the Buffalo Wings.

I recently was a part of a tipping debate at a local IHOP. The food was undercooked and had to be returned, and our server was just awful to the point where we were getting up to find someone else to fulfil requests for coffee, water or just the rest of our order. When the bill came, all of us at the table got in a debate about whether or not our server should be tipped at all. My brother-in-law felt strongly that a crappy tip screams louder than no tip at all. I, on the other hand, do not subscribe to the passive aggressive approach. I yanked out a piece of paper and wrote in large letters with the black felt pen I carry with me "TIP: Gratuities are for GOOD service". My brother-in-law still left $2.

Just want to clear up a point here. GST is 7% but there is no PST on food, so the total tax isn't a flat 14.5%. There IS however 10% tax on booze, so your beer or wine costs you 17% in taxes. I'm sure Gordo and co would love to introduce PST on food and will probably have to to pay for the Olympics. Uh oh, I just made this political.

I stopped working in the food service industry years ago because of how staff is treated. I have worked as a busgirl, waitress, cook, dishwasher, baker, et cetera. It is because of that experience in the past that I make an effort to reward GOOD service. I have been known to tip 50% for good service and 5% for poor service. When I get good service at Swiss Chalet, I tell the manager as well as tipping the server generously. When it takes four tries for the server to remember the extra little cup of sour cream for my baked potato, I tend to go light on the tip. I don't mind tipping well if it is deserved. Period.

Jf, please allow me to rephrase your argument. Because some employers are so damn cheap they won't pay a living wage, it is incumbent on all good customers to make up the perceived shortfalls in your paycheque. I realize it's kind of risky calling your boss a cheap asshole, so I'll do it for you, but to attack the people who pay for what they get to eat makes me wonder if the boss's attitude isn't rubbing off on staff.

1st and foremost is my belief that if one can AFFORD to eat out then definitely one can afford to tip. Of course mitigating circumstances like: poor service, less than friendly servers, quality of food and I only tip based on the food not on taxes. Amd I contend that those who don't tip( for other than mentioned negatives) are CHEAP and there are many out there with $$ who are cheap.

To Chowderhead, I go to Hooters for the food too. Specifically the chicken BREASTS.

To the closed minded individual who stated that he does not tip because servers make too much money and do not have to share with the kitchen/bussers/etc: You are a bone head. Every restaurant I have ever worked in requires that servers tip out approximately 20-30% of our tips to the other staff. So servers really do not make all that much money. We also damage our bodies quite severely. I have already had two wrist surgeries and am waiting for a third because I carry food to people like you. And when you don't tip me, I still have to pay tip out to the other staff for the food you ordered, so you are actually costing me money by sitting in my section.

YEAH you're are beinga tad cheap! Pay a tip, it's the cost of eating out. And if you still cannot cook your own meals then there are restaurants out there that require no tip.

That gets me to thinking... we should compile a list here on this board about all of the restaurants in Greater Vancouver (excluding fast food like McDonalds) where you don't have to tip. My recommendations, off the top of my head, would be Nandos Chicken (various locations), Urban Fare, Bojangles Cafe (various locations), Ebi Ten (at Robson/Homer), Thanks Sushi (Lonsdale/3rd), CafeRBistro (Lonsdale/3rd). Why give you hard-earned dollars away to an increasingly obsolete waitering profession. Of course, if the night calls for wine and steaks at Gotham, then full waiting service is in order, so tip appropriately. But to have a greasy burger served up to me at White Spot, and to have to shell out a $5 tip for that? Come on, people.

I forgot one other place, which I hugely recommend: Vera's Burger Shack (locations on Denman, Dundarave Beach, and Davie Street).

Some interesting points raised about tipping (although the suggestion that we customers should "add the GST & PST and double it" is crazily generous). But the article says that Jennifer Lopez was a lousy tipper here in Vancouver, and refers us to a website. However, if you check the site's later page (5, I think it was)J Lo is said to have left the same sized tip at a restaurant or bar in London. But the posted comments from the server is nearly word-for-word what the Vancouver staff said, which makes me wonder if the site isn't more or less fictional. Oh well.

"Crazily generous" it may be but the restaurants I frequent most are always real happy to see me, I always get a table even if they're really busy, I get great service every time and if it's a birthday or celebration of some sort the celebrant(s) always get something on the house.

Treat people they way you'd like to be treated if the roles were reversed. Call me selfish but that's what I do.

When choosing not to tip, beware the server's vendetta! I went with some friends for a pub lunch in Tsawwassen one Sunday and the service was terrible. The girl seemed more interested in chatting up a couple of guys on the patio than bringing our drinks and cutlery. Our bill was well over a hundred dollars and we all agreed a one dollar tip was appropriate. A few months later, we went there a second time to meet friends after dinner. We had practically forgotten about the first incident and the server this time was pretty efficient so things were going well. Then, lo and behold, the 'bad one' appears and takes over our table. We were at the end of our second round when she comes over and tells us she can no longer serve us because we've had too much to drink! We were shocked, then mad, especially at her smug demeanor. She had no reason to believe any of us were 'drunk' (we had a designated driver anyway!). Needless to say, we did not leave a tip but vowed never to return to 'the doze and frown'.

I don't mind tipping...probably because thinking about the ramifications is too tiring! Also, I am persuaded by the spectre of spit in my burger. But thanks to the Tyee for this fascinating article. And thanks to the Tyee readers for the talkbacks, which are always worth checking out (several times). The topic of Hooters has come up. I have never been to Hooters, but it seems to me a little unfair that they are singled out for mention as a paragon of sexism. Tons of restaurants do it. At Earl's the other day, my wife said, "Check out the racks!"

This is a pretty amusing thread; it's astonishing how much reaction this subject -- such a mundane and trivial one, really -- can generate. Reminds me of the endless debates in the Province (and probably every other "lite" paper) about whether local drivers are just the worst in the world, or what. I think, since such questions are fundamentally irresolveable and pseudo-political at best, that they serve as a kind of prism for the things people really want to talk about -- social class, perhaps, or the maddening nature of urban life. But you can tell small stories and speak strongly about such matters without fear of really offending anyone, eh? (Sorry about the meta-posting. Won't do it again.)

"your logic is a little backwards - one who eats at the four seasons may be able to afford to tip - or feel obliged to. But eating at cheap place means that the patrons earn little more - if not less - then the servers." Your logic is non-existant. If have so little money that you can't afford even a minimum tip, then you obviously can't afford to eat out. "Wait staff are expendable... the quality ones survive, wherheas tip-expectant ones like yourself don't last long in the hospitality industry." Unless you're psychic you don't know how long I lasted as a waiter, or a cab driver. Sometimes I made good tips. Sometimes not. It didn't depend on the quality of sevice if a tip was given. All customers were treated the same way. It depends on the stinginess of the people being served. I'm sure they all had their rational excuses for not tipping. I was never really 'tip expectant' because if you work in the service industry long enough you learn that some people are just plain cheap and will look for excuses not to tip. Now that I can afford it, I always tip, no matter what the quality of service. I've been there. You have to put up with jerks and yoyos every work day for crap pay, but you're still expected to smile and be courteous to all. The 'poor service' excuse for not tipping is very popular. And how is the waitperson supposed to defend himself against that? If you don't like to tip, eat someplace where you serve yourself. Like at home.

Generally I do tip, even though I do not really agree with the concept. What I really do not like is having the tip included in the bill (for a group of 6 or more). Tipping should be optional at all times and should only be done if the service and food are worthy of a tip.

I laugh at this thread. In Japan, a waiter is expected to deliver outstanding performance on the job. Tips are simply not a part of the equation. The waiter/waitress should take pride in their job and the quality of their work, in the same way that a shopkeeper or salaryman or schoolteacher would. Why would any restaurant owner allow his employees to deliver different standards of service to tippers and non-tippers? The system may work in the Third World, but I'm surprised that Canada embraces it. If I owned a restaurant in Canada, I would fire any waiter or waitress who didn't perform to expectations day in and day out. They would be well paid -- but tips would not be part of the equation.

yowsers - talk about an extended dialogue in non sequitor. Yoshi, I'd go into business with you, it sounds that it would be a popular hang out. As a student I see many newcomers who eat out of necessity - and not all should feel compelled to "tip" above and beyond the bill that is placed before them for their grub. If those in the hospitality business can't really stand being hospitable to all who present themselves as clients at establishments they are employed - regardless of how much they will pay to see a smile or their meal on a plate rather than the lap - then maybe it isn't the business for them. "Poor service" should not be the "excuse" not to tip - it should be the raison d'etre for being advised to find new employment.

Dear Yoshi, I love your theory about honour and pride. I would love to live in your world, but have you not been reading these posts? These people just resent being asked to pay for service, and berate the servers to clear their consciences. If you pay your staff better than your competitors, you will have to charge more too, and not one of these paragons would ever grace your establishment however wonderful your fare.

Listen people, try to imagine a theater with the scriptwriters typing madly in the back during the performance. Where the audience feels free to voice their criticisms and throw buns at the actors, change their minds if any, snap their bloody fingers and then insult the staff gratuitously both verbally and financially. Just listen to yourselves, would you?

Everybody who ever worked in service knows that some people come out with the sole purpose of making themselves feel more important by abusing the staff. Not everybody thank the gods of mayhem, but a significant number. Then think of the excuses that present themselves to bitch, Waiters, preppers, cooks, bussers, hostesses, bartenders, other patrons all must dance in time and hit their marks. It's a near miracle of co-operative skill that you get anything decent, but you do, nearly every time, from people who are threatened with replacement by $6 "trainees".

They may get a six or seven hour shift, but they're paid for only five or six. If they get stiffed, they have to pay full price for whatever the thief got away with, out of their own pocket, and still pay a fixed percentage of their "sales" to the tip share.

How long would YOU last in such conditions before committing GBH on some ass who thinks he should get a new sandwich because he doesn't like the bread the cook chose. And feels free to say so in very personal terms.

Personally, I don't think tipping is really optional at all, you just are left to demonstrate your own true nature and quality by your behaviour, something you should learn how to do in the nursery. When a restaurant is crazy busy, and the staff is not perfectly servile, and the timing is off, you should tip more, not less, in recognition of extraordinary service under adverse conditions. If you can't get this concept; if you don't know why you're going to owe a proper tip and respectful behaviour before you walk in the door you should probably stay home and try to talk your mother into cooking for you and serving you for a while longer and see if that doesn't work better for you.

Sorry for the rant, Yoshi. It's just I don't find this thread all that laughable. Everybody should know that the kind of tipper you are speaks loud about the kind of person you are.

Bailey - Given the choice of an extremely courteous customer - who complained not a whit but was all compliments (regardless of service) - ate quietly, paid the bill and simply left without a grimace (or a tip) or the hack you described as the mother of all abusers left a 25% tip - how would you judge each of these characters and who would you prefer as a customer? Yoshi is bang on - right up there with sushi - love japanese culture - and double kudos to men's gymnastics team who took gold over the U.S. - who likely get a tip for coming in second.

Tips are a big scam, run by wealthy capitalists who know they can pay their employees laughable wages because they know people have sympathy for exploited serving staff. It's sad to think that most of us work ridiculously hard every day to make a living for our families, when the people who are making the real money are the owners of the means of production. I'm trying not to sound like a 19th century communist, but upon close inspection, us blue collar workers are getting the short end of the stick. Why are people in the British properties living in such disgusting excess, while others are living in such disgusting poverty?

Alex, don't apologize. Better to feel like a 19th century communist than to act like a 21st century capitalist, in my eyes. The real disgusting thing about all this is that restuarant owners and others in the service industry use this sleezy practice to avoid paying a living wage and then join the fray in calling their customers cheap when they don't pony up to what should be seen as both extortion and false advertizing. Bailey, your final comment about $6 an hour replacement workers, says more about this scam than anything I've seen yet. I am not against rewarding workers for a good job, in fact, they should be rewarded on a weekly basis by their employer rather than having to sink into this cultural sess-pool of looking at their customers to make up for the profits their employers retain rather than share. Yoshi, your argument offers a simple and elegant option, which unfortunately, under our present greed before need approach to community, isn't going to fly. I can only wish that all such workers had real access to collective bargaining, but I realize that isn't going to happen as long as others feel a need to exploit those who toil for them and will spend untold sums to fight any effort by workers to balance the table. Those 19th century commies had a saying that seems oddly fitting in this new era. Workers of the world unite. And if I may be so bold I would like to offer my heartfelt congratulations to Venesuela's president Hugo Chavez and the millions of workers and poor who didn't buy into the U.S. supported attempt by the countries wealthy elite to oust him in Sunday's referendum.

I'm calmer now, I promise. Let me make a few more comments, then I'll go quietly. I know this is a fun piece, on a trivial subject, But sometimes the devil lives in the details.

Tipping was never 'to insure promptness'. It was to avoid revenge. The wealthy sometimes treat their servants badly to help convince themselves of their 'superiority'. Guests would tip in the full knowledge that the servants may have good reasons to resent them, and also handle both the food and the rat poison. The Master never tipped his own servants.

In the democratic age the practice thrives because it bypasses the new masters, the owners of the joint, and pays the servants directly, limiting the boss' chances to cop the tips for himself, which many of them still try to do.

Service is an important and honourable profession...if you can command some respect. Even among democratic people, the chance to get yourself pampered and impress your mum on her birthday is both sweet and healing. It can comfort our poor abused souls, and it warrants gratitude, not harsh judgements when things go a bit sideways. When people are involved in anything, they can go sideways in a blink. And if you think it annoys you, be the waitress who's watching her whole day turn go nightmarey on her because the chef got into the sherry and dropped a whole tray of dinners she needs now.

You are not her superior because you're sitting down while she runs for you. The masters were never really superior. They just liked to think so. And servants never were free to correct that belief.

Except at the Bastille one day.

Just pay the people who serve you like you know you should, be respectful, a little understanding, and you will never have to worry about what that odd sweet flavour is in the sauce.

Let me backtrack a bit here to Yoshi's snotty little post about the superiority of Japanese service culture -- or, reading between the lines, shouldn't we say servile, subservient and obsequious restaurant culture? Y'know, buddy, it may be that "honour" and "pride" are more important to a Hokkaido waitress than such barbaric gai-jin notions as "income" and "a living wage," but somehow I doubt it. You bug me, man. I mean, here we are, having a typically Canadian chat -- freewheeling, wide-ranging, obstreperous -- about an interesting subject, and you just kinda sidle in with a superior smirk and not-so-subtly imply that our concerns and debates are laughable cos, y'know, mighty Nippon's got it all figured out. In fact you pretty much state it directly, Yoshi, and y'know what? I take it as an insult. So I've got two words back for you, bud, and they're not "Happy Birthday." --- And then we've got ditzy larks like Shirin here, getting smacked in the face and *lapping it up.* "Love Japanese culture! 'K! Bye!" Gad, I despair for this country sometimes...

touchy - *grin* - I say someone can do with a "touch" of culture. Vancouver is full of ditzes loving japanese culture - so mayhap you are misplaced on the west coast as we have more sushi restaurants then starbucks (officially counted by an unnamed newspaper that has no real news to report that would not portray the right as being terribly wrong). I too despair this country who has citizens expecting a second pay without the income tax - McD's has a union thing going, don't they? - but that would make all such "gifts" open-market for the tax man, eh? Even the squeegie boy was outraged that I did not want to "pay" him for his forced services - and I had a point being on a bike and all....

How can the above people be so unaware of the Economic CLASS problem defined by the situations above? It is about Economic CLASS and ignorance of the fact that: 1 - Restaurant workers are from the very underpaid group of the economic underclass. 2 - Students, working in restaurants, hope to go above the economic underclass, but many never do, but they keep trying for life. Some become adept at pretending that they are part of the elite by calling themselves artists, poets, writers or intellectuals, while working in restaurants, labour unlimited and other temporay outfits. 3 - There are many "intellectuals" with BA's and Bsc driving taxies and doing what is considered menial jobs from this crazy, consumeristic, egocentric society. 4 - What are you going to do about the economic class problem?] Answer: Go shopping, go cruising for a bruising, go in a binge of vices galore... The economic class issue? Well later.. my cellphone (that I cannot afford) just rang....

Those of you in the food service trade or with friends in it may be interested to know that the bc liars are interested in the american idea that people who get tips do NOT need the minimum wage -see time writer barbara ehrenreich's Nickeled and Dimed: on not getting by in america, which details the new homeless trend in food service workers and the working otf two jobs becoming more commonplace under this policy, and for god's sake, GET ON THE VOTER'S LIST AND GET RID OF THESE PARASITES NEXT MAY 17, 2005, while you still have something that can be called a life left...

Bailey says : "Just pay the people who serve you like you know you should, be respectful, a little understanding, and you will never have to worry about what that odd sweet flavour is in the sauce." This seems exortionate. So the reason to tip IS because of the fear of gob. I knew it! So workers who are too professional (or "servile"), and/or are unable to sabotage the customer get the short end of it. I guess that's fair. As fair as the fact that restaurents tend to hire waitresses by dint of their natural or synthetically enhanced physical attributes.

Bailey, your final comment about not having to worry about "that odd sweet flavour in the sauce" does seem to imply extortion by service providers and reveals you're still really tipping out of self-interest and self-preservation. Hardly ethical, dear Bailey.

No one's pointing out that the site referred to libels J-Lo. It reports an incident at a Vancouver establishment where she left a tiny tip, then later reports an incident at a London establishment. The language between the two reports is identical, as is the % of the tip, etc., so I don't think the site's information is too accurate. It seemed important to point that out.

Oh, all right, one more kick at the can.

Tipping is how they're paid. That's how we do it. All over the western world. Some places waiters have to buy their jobs and pay to work. For tips. If you take their service when you know this, then don't tip, or tip badly, you're ripping the person off. They can't prevent you. They can't have you charged. But you're still ripping them off.

Tell yourself whatever you want. He was late, the cornflakes were soggy, my bunions hurt, I ordered it medium rare, she was too ugly, I was drunk and she objected when I pinched her. Whatever. If you sit at her table, then don't pay her the going rate, you stole her chance to make her living.

All self justifications are hot air. It just ain't right.

If you go in to work next Friday, and your boss sez yer late, I didn't like the colour of yer tie, my dog bit off the end of my nose and I'm in a really bad mood so I decided not to pay your worthless ass this week, what do you think your attitude might be then? Think you might feel like pissing on his shoes?

If you did, I would applaud you and think you did good to stand up for your right to be paid for your labours. I might even refuse to cross your line, brother. Join you in a rousing chorus of 'Euphoria', sister. Where's the difference? You went out for an experience, you got one. If you don't want to go back, don't. But you still owe what you owe.

good grief, bailey, you don't get it, do you? canada has this thing called an employment contract between employee - who takes the gig - and the employer - needing someone to do the job. the less "specialization" or training the gig takes - the lower the pay - with a minimum guaranteed by the good goverance of our nation. don't tell me you go to work without a formal contract, do you? then the pox is on you and not the clients who visit the establishment of your employment. all income from employment in canada is taxed - this is called "income tax". There is no "understanding" between the poor soul who just finished a long day at the "job" and came in for a coffee break that they would have to pay extra for you handing him the cup without spilling it on his lap. If you don't like the pay - get another job that satisfies your lifestyle needs. extra handouts should not be an expected charity - unless there is a tax-break for such donations.

Yeah right, it's their own fault. If they don't want to work for free let them retire on their investments. Screw em if they can't take a joke. If I don't like the deal, I'll just change it. The hell with what we all agreed to. You're just some jerk, and you can't make me. I never liked paying you, so I'll just decide you don't deserve your pay and stiff you.

Where have I heard this argument before? Oh, Yeah, It's a cornerstone of the neo-conservative world view. What Gordon Campbell learned at his momma's knee. Read Bill 29.

Some people live one way, some people live another way. Waiters live on TIPS. Like it or not, it's true and you know it. Not everybody has the power to command a separate contract. If no 'specialization' is involved,(what a word to choose!) why are some people so good at it and some so bad? Oh, and you are the client who visits these establishments. And me. So if there's pox around, we better duck that better than we duck coffee if we expect to escape it.

Why are we arguing that these particular workers are unworthy of their pay? Pay is not charity. Their taxes are completely irrelevant to the question, and no business of ours. 'Lifestyle needs'?Tax break for your 'donation'? Good Grief yourself. If you really think there's no 'understanding' surrounding tipping, then maybe you don't get it either. Do you?

I think Bailey you are painting quite an ugly picture of waiters and waitresses and subsequently of their customers. That's where I think the ethics of your answer is missing. You are saying, quite contrary to Yoshi above,( who imparts some honour and dignity to the occupation) that if you do not tip, the waiter has every right to spit or worse in your soup. You also say you should tip in order to prevent against getting spit or worse in your soup because waiters live on tips. Isn't that insulting to both waiter and customer?

I think you should tip for good service, average service, even mediocre service if you so choose, to show appreciation to the server in a job that's often low pay for hard work. But why would anyone reward a waiter for downright bad service? Are they to be so pitied that even a common level of human decency is not to be expected from them? And are we, as customers so calculating in our motives that now we tip out of fear and self-interest? Wow, that's quite a dire morality tale being played out, who knew?

Come on Bailey. Just because it's common practice among restaurant owners to whip and starve their slaves, we serfs who show up for a bowl of slop are to participate in the farce as well? If they dance, smile or show enough cleavage we'll toss them a loonie or two and it's ok `cause the boss has given us the right to pull their strings as long as I'm a patron. Justifying this form of indentured labour is tantamount to agreeing that, while it was a messy invasion of Iraq for all the wrong official reasons, we certainly do appreciate that oil. I know some people who wait earn great money from tips and no doubt, in some places, there are earnings enough to buy off the guy with the whip, but the great majority of people dependant on someone other than their boss to pay them what they deserve are ripped off first by their employers. No one is suggesting these particular workers are not worthy of their pay, but why should I have to p(l)ay along as part of this outdated master-servant gig that more resembles the piece-work expected of a tethered ass chasing the never-quite attainable carrot than it does the inspired actions of a dedicated craftsperson? Your logic, if accepted, would see me shopping in Walmart for cheap third-world clothing produced by child labour, because, no doubt, those kids sure need the income.

When you are king, no doubt all men will be brothers, and candy will grow on the trees.

I can't believe you're missing the point like this. Of course I'm not suggesting that anyone has the right to poison you or put horrible things in your food, no matter how badly you behave toward them. But your attitude to these people seems somewhat denigrating and objectionable. Just listen to yourselves, will you? You sound like Dr. Spock instructing Mums not to pamper the kiddies by cuddling them, or they won't grow up self reliant. Who do you think you are? Who do you think THEY are?

Just as they must treat you professionally, so must you treat them so. You don't hold their wages up and dangle them, then snatch them away if you fail to find love and happiness and all good things. Everybody brings their own expectations in with them. Their own moods and prejudices and habits. But all a restaurant offers is a seat in a room and the food the cook produced. Maybe some background music to fit a theme. That's it.

Unless you slip into the realm of tort law, if you occupy the seat in the room, and are served the food, you owe the proper respect to the staff and the proper remuneration for the situation. This includes a proper tip. Sorry, I can see it smarts, but if you don't pay, they have every right to resent it, just as you would resent being treated badly at work. Do you like making people resent you, when you know they can't do anything about it? If you do, you're a common bully, and you're not alone. This kind of power brings out unattractive qualities in a certain number of people every day.

Maybe your idea of medium rare is different from the chefs, or you dislike sherry, but neglected to mention it, or the chicken was not like your sainted mother used to make. Or you waited twenty minutes more than you wanted to. Even if that really annoys you, you still have to pay.

Look above at some of the sad stories there. I wasn't there; I don't know, and sorry if I'm off the mark but...Let's start with Mr. Tupper, how did you treat the waiter before he dropped the water in your lap, sir? Had he reason to feel a need to reclaim any shredded dignity? Any reason to suspect that you really weren't going to tip him regardless of what else might transpire? As I said, a lap is a small target.

Then there's RLM from Tsawwassen, sir, the fact that 'the girl' cut you off after two drinks the second night leads to a speculation that the reason she was ignoring you the first night might have had something to do with the effect of the third drink on your behaviour. And the fourth. The fact that you came equipped with a driver seems to reinforce the impression. Was your treatment of 'the girl' entirely professional sir, before you stiffed her?

Must I go on? You are all wonderful people telling your side of a story. Telling why you don't want to pay what you owe. Thank you.

Any servers want to chime in with their favourite stories?

Bailey, I tip for decent service, doesn't even have to be good service but I think it is a choice and I refuse to tip because someone holds the threat of spitting in my soup or whatever. I would not tip for bad service; there are some lousy waiters just as there are some lousy customers. This is about intention, my intention is to treat others with dignity and respect and I expect the same in return. You are using tipping in an extortionary manner, don't forget if the waiter is "owed" a tip so is the customer "owed" decent service . Otherwise the deal's off.

Just to add, I would have tipped the waitress who spilled the ice water, simply because I would have assumed it was accidental, and not bad service, and just the kind of human mistake we all make. According to the article, she seemed to feel quite badly about it and apologized, that would have been fine with me and who would want to make her feel any worse?

Yes, OK Rumpole, but what constitutes bad service? Is it enough that you didn't like what the cook made you? Or that the shrimp ran out and it took half an hour to get more? Or does it have to be dropped in your lap? How about if it's in your lap, but the last people left a banana peel on the floor, so it wasn't the waitress' fault?

Don't you see, if you make their pay depend on their pleasing you; on your mood, you reduce them to less than full human status. They become just your thing, to dispose of as your whim takes you. All that stuff above about the size of the boobs at Hooters becomes horribly true. Their pay should depend on something more objective. Did you get a seat? Did you get served?

.If you have a bad time, well it's too bad, try again someplace else or something. But please at least leave the people you deal with some dignity in their labour. Pay for what you are given.

Who knows, someday you may have to depend on somebody who doesn't like you to pay you so you can go on.

Bailey, you appear to be more interested in defending an archaic form of remuneration rather than accepting that customers might genuinely feel less than grateful for what service was provided. No one is perfect, shit happens and unless you depend on the gratitude of those you are helping, little may come of it. But you miss a tip and now the customer is an asshole? Your boss agrees, but then he got all his money, so he'll probbly welcome that customer back. So here we have your boss, who is an asshole for encouraging this other asshole to come back even though that customer thinks you are an asshole and won't give you a tip. That's certainly not the relationship I want to endure with anyone, even if they sometimes smile.

allan, yes, I see, and I agree. The thing is the system has endured for centuries in a large part of the world, including our part. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians work there every day, and you're right, the boss gets his money, so if you make your disappointment visible he stands with the asshole, excuse me, displeased customer. So where does that leave the server?

Dealing every day with people who think that whatever they feel may rightly be visited on the poor schlub who is trying to make a bridge between a kitchen and a 'dining experience'.

What about the customer who comes in fuming because his boss just yelled at him, and is therefore disposed to peck the next chicken in the order. He'll refuse to pay you no matter what, and blame it on you, and what do you tell your landlord then? And why?

Because he can.

I understand your social argument about ideal relationships, but institutionalizing the abusability of a group by reinforcing their vulnerability to the whims of whatever mood swing happens to wander in the door wont help equalize the relationship. Most people are great, and reasonable, and after a good time. They can be pleased by reasonable outcomes, and they are the joy of the job. But not everybody is so nice. Assholes do wander our world, and if you tell them they can kick any waiter who fails to please them, what they will do is go shopping for bigger shoes.

allan, let me add a little thing. I really liked your sentence with the three assholes in it. I think it makes a very telling point. We go around every day, and meet people we like and people we don't.

If we enter into short term commercial relationships with them, we have to pay the ones we don't like the same as the ones we do. If not; if we only have to pay the ones we like, many people would soon be harder to please, don't you think? Sorry, Mr. Grocer, I took your tomatoes, but I don't like your attitude so go whistle for your pay. Thanks for the ride across town, Cabbie, but I thought your story about your mother sucked, so no fare for you.

The difference is those people are free to take you in hand, like them or not. The lesson about treating others with respect is usually learned in a schoolyard at about six. One way or the other.

This has been most interesting reading all of the above comments for the past few days. However, the bottom line is WE ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO TIP ANYONE. There is no sign on restaurant doors that says "The wait staff are paid a minimal amount and, should you decide to eat here, you are required to boost their pay so that they are making a decent wage". People take these jobs hoping to make "extra" money from tips, but are not guaranteed anything. The trainee at McDonald's making $6.50/hr is not getting any tips and believe me they work their butts off. It just took my son a year to finally make it to the $8.00/hr rate and no one ever tips at McDonalds - why??? - those workers work hard - they take your order, they present it to you - sometimes they even run it to your car - but are you Bailey giving them a large tip for doing that - I bet not. The average clerk at a grocery store makes minimum wage, but I have never seen anyone give a tip after they have carefully packaged the groceries. The gas station attendant is making minimum wage but doesn't run after you when you drive away and don't leave him a tip. Do you get the message - there are alot of people that make minimum wage and do not depend on tips to make it to the next pay cheque. Tips are an extra that should not be counted on. The whole business of tipping has gotten way out of hand, as far as I am concerned. Personally, I feel that the tips should go to the people in the back, the cook who is making the meal you love so much and the dishwasher who is making sure that the plate you are eating off of is clean and that those people should decide how much they want to pass on to the wait staff. The cook is a skilled worker, who has probably taken many years of training. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to ask you what you want for dinner and then take it to your table. You don't have to go to years of school to be a waitress. (This comment should really open up a can of worms!!) Plus another fact that really bugs me is that many (and in fact probably most) waiters do not claim their tips on income tax - is that fair? Why should their wages be boosted with tips and then have it be tax free? ALL of my wage is taxed.

Yes, Barb. I get it. You're 100% right. You fix it, and let me know how it goes.

PS The training wage, it was widely sworn sworn by our highly honest provincial government, would never last a year. 20 weeks max they swore to our faces. Somebody has ripped your family off in a way most cynical and disrespectful of law and the principles of natural justice. Who do you think it was? Who exactly decided your son was unworthy of fair wages and unable to defend himself from this exploitation?

Also, just by the way, the cook usually gets paid a higher rate.

Oh lord, I'm sorry. But I'm afraid you're dead wrong about waiters being untrained and unskilled and I think you know it. You certainly know there are good and bad ones, and what's the difference if not training and skill? When you start on the career you first have to bus for quite a long time under various waiters to learn the craft.

It's essentially a theatrical job, with elements of diplomacy and logistics. The cook hates you, and you must compel the kitchen to adhere to your timing exactly. They don't want to. You must assess each table, determine why they came,(hint, the food is usually an excuse) then design and provide the proper elements at the proper moments throughout a complicated structured program that might last several hours, and might change in the middle. You must do this simultaneously for everybody, maybe twenty or more people, each with different complex instructions. Even a casual 'more coffee?' has to be timed quite carefully. The fact that you see no skill there to respect is a testament to the skill level that really exists there. That's precisely the impression they are supposed to leave.

Did I touch a nerve Bailey? Granted there a good waiters and there are bad. I did not say there was no skill, but there is definitely not years of training in a school setting. Most waiters I know get a day or two of training and then they are on their own, masterminding the skills to lure people into leaving them "more wages". The point I was trying to make earlier is that there are many jobs out there that pay minimum wage and people do not feel obligated to tip them. Why is it so different in a restaurant? Why do we not insist that the owners of the restaurants pay their staff deceit wages so that they do not have to depend on tips? So to answer your smart-ass reply, I do not have all of the answers, but I do question the system - Do you??? Also, I did not want my son to work at McD's for slave labour, but he insisted because his friends worked there and they were flexible with his hours so he could snowboard on weekends. He has also said that when the day comes that he can vote he will remember which government it was that started him out at $6.50/hr. Yahoo!! Until we talk again......

Sorry for the smart-ass reply. No disrespect meant.

We do insist, have insisted since at least 1760 (remember the Bastille!) No joy so far, but we'll keep trying.

It's different because it is. Maybe it shouldn't be, but for some hundreds of years now, it is. If they let you loose on the floor after two days training, they are just passing your training to their customers, who will then have to be the ones to teach you what they expect, and when to stay away.

The purposes of the management are different from the needs of the staff, which are different problems completely from the kitchen's. The customer makes his own.

The management want you to walk in, leave lots of money and exit briskly. They put in red carpets because somebody did a study to show they increase turnover. They only offer food at all because they can't think of any other way to get you to do it. The diner wants a sweet and enjoyable dinner, tailored to his conversational or romantic rythms, or the demands of his schedule, with exquisite food at the perfect moments. The waiter stands between, juggling all these agendas, She wants to be respected, understood, and PAID. She will be forced to pay the support staff whether you pay her or not. That's the deal. I'm sorry if it's unfair, but there are restaurants on every block set up along precisely these lines. Bars and bistros too.

She will have to pay a percentage of your bill to the other staff. If you stiff her, she will still have to pay for you out of her pocket. You take the food directly from her children's mouths. You have no right to occupy her table, run up a bill through her, make use of her skills and precious shift time unless you agree to this deal. I sympathize if you don't like her, I really do. I'm sorry you don't respect her as much as I believe she deserves. But....

Hopefully my last comments on a subject that could, and probably unfortunately, will go on for centuries to go. Firstly, I have made no deal when I step into a restaurant. In actual fact the waiter/tress is the one who has made the deal (with the devil obviously) when he/she decides to take the job. There is no guarantee that they will receive tips that cover the percentage required at the end of the shift. That is really not my problem but theirs. To say that I have no right to occupy her table is being a bit dramatic (as well as taking food from their children's mouths!!). I have every right to sit down and order a meal if the door to the restaurant is open and the open sign is on. I do respect the waitress, as a matter of fact, I make it a point to respect everyone I meet and hope the same respect is shown to me. I am NOT obligated in any way to leave a specific amount to the waitress. And believe it or not, I do leave tips, not always 15% but at least 10% - depending on the meal and the service. Actually I have even been known to leave more than 15% but remember I am NOT OBLIGATED TO DO SO. However, for really bad service, not necessarily bad food, I will not leave a tip and if that means the waitress/waiter has to pay money from their pocket into the pot then they have no one to blame but themselves. End of Story

Right again. All her fault. Good on you for being so willing to teach her her place so respectfully.

Rights come in different flavours. So do obligations. Many of the strongest and most important of both are unwritten, even unspoken. If you keep them, or if you don't, you will be whatever you become.

Stories rarely end. All we can any of us do is try to choose our own part well. Thank you for our conversation.

Your welcome. Most go now, heading out for dinner. To a buffet as a matter of fact - now how will that work for tipping??? I will think of you Bailey when the bill comes. Your comments, actually all of the comments have been enlightening. Happy Dining......

Barb, you are trying to reason with the unreasonable. As the saying goes: It's useless against the wind which cannot read. If you've learned anything - respect is a performance for some worthy of a tip. Imagine - you are giving it away for free!

Bailey, while I appreciate your sense of being part of the entertainment package diners are offered or provided, as well as your tenacious refusal to shift from your stated position, I do think we argue over mixed fruit here. Alas the insurmountable divide. There is no short term commercial relationship with a person who waits on or serves a table other than to satisfy the bill he or she brings to the diners on behalf of restaurant management, normally after the eatin's done. You may feel there is and your employer may argue until the cows come home that you are an independant business person who sub-contracts to perform the delivery and provide the flair. You are still an employee according to any but the most bizarre of interpretations of employment practices and if you you and or your boss feel you are entitled a gratuity, you had best spell it out on a sign, in a verbal notice to the customer before they purchase or in some other form to ensure everyone is playing with the same equipment before the game starts. Again, while I appreciate your perspective and can appreciate the theatre aspect of your job and your obvious pride in it, I can't buy your later argument there are unspoken or unwritten ''rights'' that I the customer must in any sense (especially common) accept as binding on me. A lot of news reporters used to depend on tips from politicians, lobbyists and others to keep the wolf away from the door because publishers were notorious for treating writers as unwashed necessities in their news paper offices. In those days it was an open secret that everyone took gifts. Officially not allowable, but practiced regularly. Today reporters would rather get caught making up a story than to be exposed having accepted a gratuity from a news contact, but no doubt, there are still practitioners of the craft. I'm not trying to parallel serving food with reporting news other than to note that reporters who took tips were essentially performing theatre as well when they danced for their piper. A good living wage, with benefits and job security would perhaps offer a less risky lifestyle and would certainly clear up who works for who.

It would, Allan, but it won't. The $6 rate was granted to the restauranteur lobby as a compromise. They were paying for repeal of minimum wage and all labour standards. They may yet be granted it. The argument is far from dead.

I should clear up a misimpression; I'm not a waiter. I work with the disabled.

I've recently thought, watching the political news, that one of the most telling things you can observe about anyone is how they behave toward those who are at their mercy. Those who can't defend themselves. Prisoners, the homeless, the mentally or physically challenged. You can't argue this point in that arena, because people automatically reclassify these as less than human, so the discussion short circuits. We can't for some reason quite take the step that leads to perceived equality, I'm not really sure why.

Waiters are not in those categories, but are still unable to defend themselves without risk of losing their jobs, so I find this thread very interesting. I am surprized at how strongly it turns out I feel about it. I wasn't aware of it myself.

I apopogize if I have seemed pigheaded or unreasonable. I enjoy these conversations, and I do in fact have a lot of respect for anyone willing to step up and participate in a public(ish) forum like this one.

I'm not conventionally particularly religious or anything, but a Biblical quote remembered from childhood has been squatting in my mind like an arrogant toad trying to hop out. Maybe if I release it it will also release me. Forgive me if I have it wrong: "What you render to the least of your brothers, you render unto me"

IF you belive tipping is archaic and wrong, consider this: tips are banned and servers are instead paid a living wage. How quickly do you think prices will rise 15-20% to compensate? Either way, you the consumer is paying roughly the same amount. So, get over it and tip your damn server so he too can pay his bills. As much as I wish I could, I cannot tell my landlord that I was going to pay rent this month but cannot because many self-indulgent pricks thought it was beneath them to tip accordingly. Well, I could tell my landlord that, but I don't think I'd be living here much longer without that check.

I live in Toronto, where there are no waiters or servers, only film-makers and writers who "happen" to be working as servers and waiters. Regretably, many seem to despise their patrons as arrogant bourgeois (or "self-indulgent pricks"--see above!) who fail to recognize their server's true calling and mistake them for servers. That's seen as offensive. I always tip but I always wonder why: I've never had good service in Toronto. It has become standard to not even offer a glass with your beer in a restaurant. A friend from Poland with whom I was recently dining remarked dismayedly at how low the standards of service and presentation are in this so-called Mecca of dining. I've come to realize that the transaction between yourself and the server is akin to that between yourself and the panhandler: "Pay up, bourgeois scum (or "self-indulgent prick"--see above). You have to give me money because it is unfair that you (apparently) have more than me!

Bailey, that explains your stand, but I'm at a loss as to how you equate servers or waiters who expect to be tipped with the problems encountered by the handicapped. I certainly agree, many waiters are caught in an economic vice that is being tightened by employers, our economic culture or their own delusions. The problem is, most workers in the hospitality and retail sectors, among others, are caught up in the same tightening squeeze. While I share your fears that another round of BC Liberal government could mean the end to minimum wage and a whole of lot other minimal social safety protection, I would suggest you could have used a better example. Perhaps, you should have made your case when the recent article on Walmart ran on Tyee. The prospect of people caught in a minimum-wage job inside the world's largest retailer, with seldom enough weekly hours to gain benefits, which are pathetic to begin with, combined with the sheer terror Walmart inflicts on anyone who might pine openly for union job protection, seems to me closer to the reality of the handicapped than the eclectic mix of personalities and philosophic outlooks that people Canada's restuarants. Heck, you could even focus on the poor Joes and Janes who toil behind the counters of the neighbourhood 7/11. The only tips they seem to get are verbal suggestions as to where they should go or where they should shove the over-priced item the customer thinks is a rip-off. You certainly kept this thread running with your scenario, which fits into your earlier reference to theatrics. I was going to ask if you are a participant in the waiters Olympics, but I suspect that would have only got you more determined than ever to win the point. Finally, your focus on how people treat those who can't fight back is worthy. There will always be those who look to take advantage of others, but the tipping issue is fraught with just too many tangents to use as that standard.

Bailey, I'm having a problem with you throwing prisoners in with the disabled and homeless. Give me a break. If someone cuts up a child and leaves them for dead they are not human. I don't care what form they are walking around in (ie. human body). Besides, the "prisoners" in this country are living better than most disabled people and hands down way above the homeless. So again, give me a break on that one.

I'm sorry, Fi Maxwell. Every time I try to get out of this hole I've dug here, I slip back in.

It isn't about the waiters, the prisoners or the homeless. It's about us. How we behave to each other, and what we tell ourselves about that.

You say prisoners aren't really human, and I understand why. But DNA testing, when it came along provided a means to assess that view. Turns out quite a lot of prisoners are innocent, even some who confessed to crimes have been proved innocent against their own will. Have those lost their humanity too?

I don't know about all that. Nobody really ever knows what happens in other people's lives. Maybe waiters deserve to be kicked if they fail to make us as happy as we think they should. Maybe being in prison makes you less than the rest of us. Forget that for the moment. Think instead what a person becomes who is willing to treat people badly just because they can. What does it do to me if I kick a dog when he's down, or let a poor man starve and blame him for it. Or punish a servant. What does it do to my own self, my community, my family. My victim will recover, or not, or whatever his circumstances permit, but the damage I do to myself may not be so easy to escape. My heart may be changed forever, even though nobody will stop me, or judge me, or take any notice at all of what I do to those we class below ourselves.

This all sounds so damn pompous, and I never meant to come so far in this argument. Please don't take this as some kind of condemnation of people who don't tip. Tipping is just a cultural artifact, not a clue to your value as a human being. The English never tip, and some of them are quite nice people.

I do not believe that I deserve money just because "you have more than me" (which is often not the case, but I digress). I deserve money because I do a service to the paying customer. I'm sorry to hear that servers in Toronto suck, but I for one always give great service because I know the better the service, the bigger the tip. However, even what you call bad service deserves something...the server could just leave you to rot at your table. If your server serves you, then they deserve a tip. No one gets into this buisness to make $2.35 an hour. My paychecks are about enough to pay my cell phone bill each month and that's it. Remember this: servers get taxed on total sales. On top of this, servers must tip out the bar, busser, food expo, host, etc. (who they tip out and the percent depends on the place), also on their total sales. This means that if you stiff a server, THEY PAY for serving you. There is no way you can possibly justify that. Tip your servers!

Bottom Line: Give good service and you will most likely receive a tip. Leaving a customer to "rot" at their table and you most definitely don't deserve a tip. Working for $2.35/hr - suggestion: go back to school and get an education so that you can get a decent job that you don't need to depend on others to supplement your wages - or do what other people do that earn minimum wage and get another job. But for goodness sake stop your whining! There are no guarantees in life and there are no guarantees that you will always get the tip you think you deserve.

bob - you sound a like the squeegie boy. Get out of the business since you are apparently not successful at it if monetary value is your measuring stick for success. You would think that someone such as yourself coming from such humble living conditions - if having a cell phone can be considered a poor man's basics - would be more egalitarian and less discriminatory as to who should get a tip based where they serve you - despite making the same fictional 2.35/hr (not in this country legally). If your service is not dispesnible - your attitude certainly an adjustment - that's my free tip to you.

I know what you are saying Bailey, but I think of servers as pretty equal to me, and not quite as needy as a dog... you sound like a very compassionate person and that is good :)

Unfortunately our world is based on "treating people badly just because (they) can". Sad, but true. Good luck with getting out of this hole, I've been there myself...

Wow! This was one very long thread. Were it written on a roll of toilet paper, I'm guessing the TP would be the same diameter as a spare tire on one of them SUVs. The Baily versus the World interactions were interesting and I'm not sure I can (or have the courage) to add anything to them. I will, however, digress slightly to make an observation about a trend I've noticed recently at restaurants around town. I live near The Drive and at most of the upper end establishments there is nary a male waiter. It seems they've followed the lead of your garden variety Earl's, Cactus Club, Milestones, Hooters and stocked their front staff with nubile twentysomethings. While I admit, the conditioned male in me appreciates the sights, there's another part of me that finds this development a little disconcerting. Part of it has to do with meritocracy. It must suck to bring in a resume, not be up to standard (or the wrong gender), and have the manager deposit your CV in the bin as soon as you're out the door. The other part I'm a little uncomfortable with is the whole Maximization of the food industry, where every restaraunt is trying to outdo the the one down the street to be the grandest pleasure palace. Back in the good ol' days both male and female servants were at the mercy of the discretion involved in tipping. It seems today that the evolution in the food-service industry is such that this new class of "servants" is becoming more and more a female enclave. Perhaps pornography is no longer the only industry where females outearn their male counterparts?

Nobody has mentioned the fact that since this is untaxed income, it is only quasi-legal. If it is an EXPECTED part of the waiter's pay, then it surely should be taxed?

Not entirely true. A server is taxed based on his total sales. Generally, the tax is based on 10 percent of total sales, so if I sell $500, the government will assume I made $50 and tax me on it. As for $2.35 an hour-that's my hourly wage. Don't belive me? I'll gladly show you my pay stub. I'm not there to make that kind of money-tips are necessary to pay my bills. Get an education? Great idea! Thank god you're here to tell me about that. Oh, wait. I forgot. I'm eight months away from my master's degree. The misconception that server's are uneducated always pisses me off. 75% of the people I work with either have a higher education degree or are in the process of attaining one. Its like that at all across the service industry. Serving is a job that takes great patience, personal skills, communication skills, and time managment. Before you critisize servers, try walking a mile in our shoes. I guerantee the job is much more difficult and stressful than many who've posted here could ever dream of. The bottom line is this: I don't expect tips. I know better than that. But we are taxed on sales and tip out based on sales. If we are stiffed, we pay out of our own pocket to serve you. There is no possible way you can say that is right and can defend that. And just an FYI: servers have incredible memories. Stiff us once, you'll get away with it. Come in again, and even if you don't have the same server, they'll recognize you and tell who is waiting on you. Tables that I know won't tip or tip well are always my last priority. Sure, you'll get service, but it sure as hell won't be good. And while I would never screw with someone's food (it is illegal, immoral, and just plain wrong), it happens. Just the way it is. So think twice about stiffimg your server. You never know who it is and what thier morals are. You may be safe with me, but not with the server in the next section.

This is horrible news for the restaurant business. After reading through this - I will certainly persuade any outings be limited to non-service venues - it is not only the worry about tipping (I am 10 months away from a doctoral degree) - but who would feel like tipping - even if the extra dough was handy - people with such a crappy attitude and delusions of grandeur? Good grief - a masters student should know that there are a number of jobs available that pay more than $2.35/hr - heck, most grads work as teacher's assistants where you get to work with people but won't exercise that "love working with the public - only if they cough over extra dough for my magnanimous attention" attitude. cry me a river.

Bob- $2.35 an hour? You're a fool. Give me a break- I'm with Avicenna on that one...

I think the $2.35 might be an American rate. Their minimum wage legislation is much weaker than the Canadian.

I am a server in a restaurant that pays $2.65(US)to its servers. We then tip out hosts, and busers and the kitchen. This equals out to be 30% of my tips. I'm working my way through college, and I choose being a server because I make good money in a short amount of time, time that is felxable so I can study. I'm not going to be a waitress all my life, but in the mean time that's what I am and do. Bad service is one thing, hey mention it before you leave so the problem can be resolved. But just leaving without tipping is ridiculous. You are not having to cook, clean the table, or do the dishes, etc. So basically we are doing you a favor. Thank God I in a place that my customers are grateful for what I do.

After reading some of the comments by these obnoxious servers who work in restaurants and bars ,and always expect to be tipped (regardless of service) is one reason that I choose to eat out less and less these days. That and the fact that standards of cleanliness are usually horrendous at most restaurants in vancouver. And it seems like there are `karma' and tip jars sprouting out faster than Gordon Campbell can slash labour standards in this province. Why should servers be in a priveleged position to expect extra money from custumers? I just don't get it. One more thing: What really drives me crazy is when you get a beer at a bar, drop a tip in the jar, and the bartender immediately empties the jar to see how much you tipped them. What are supposed to do then? It makes me so mad that I feel like NOT tipping at all the next time I buy a drink, but then I can expect a snotty attitude and poor service from them. Servers who always expect a tip are just obnoxious and don't deserve one at all. I'll live with the poor service, but, most likely, will just take my patronage somewhere else - and there are plenty of places to do that. In any case, tipping is of less importance to me than the generally deplorable state of basic cleanliness and healthy hygienic practices at most vancouver restaurants. I once complained to the cashier about the cook not washing his hands at the Dairy Queen at Hastings and Lakewood, and the next time I came back to the restaurant there was a steel barrier erected in front of the cook's counter, so customers couldn't see how the cooks handled there food. Another case: I once ordered a meal at Deserts at Commercial and Venables and the young cook/cashier didn't even wash her hands after giving back my change for the bill before handling my chapati with her hands. When i raised this issue with her, another staff cook then, unbelievably, piped in and started arguing with me that much dirt and grime is at least organic. Only on Commercial Drive would this happen. Was he high, I don't know. Needless to say I never stepped back in that hole again. It is completely unnacceptable for customers to have to put up with this behaviour (then tip- good grief,)and the biggest reason I don't eat out very much anymore in this filthy town.

It seems every time one goes to the hairdresser these days, when it comes time to pay with a credit card the receptionist will say something like "We have a tip function on this card reader. Would you like to use it?" "Will that be the final amount?" or "Would you like to add anything to that amount?" to which I invariably reply "No, thank you." At one place the stylist was even boasting about how Saturday was her busiest day and that on average she made $500. So, why does she need the receptionist to try to pressure customers to pay even more? Greed, pure and simple. As for restaurants, the sooner the Canadian restaurant industry adopts the European model, the easier it will be for everyone. No need to tip as 15% is automatically included in the bill to cover service.

nick has true insight, the owners are " il duces" personified. i even know some guys ,usually it is a guy ,who consider the tips jar the thanks to him who ownsthe place because as we should all know the owner risked to reap rewards and noone working there would have a job without him, yyeah rrright/// Somewhat like landlords think that tenants should kiss their orifice. but the truth that a landlord could not exist without tenants seem forgotten. accumulating property and paying the taxes of course tenatants have no concern , yyyyeah rightt!

How many of you have served? Servers would not depend on tips if the resaurants payed them more than 2.13 an hour. some of you act like serving is the easiest job on earth, and it isn't!!!! Sure if the service is bad don't tip, but pay attention to how busy your server is and how mant table they have, and how stressed out they are!!! Remember nobody is perfect. Do you take a pay cut every time you mess up or you are having a bad day!! Well servers do!! Oh and if you are worried about a server not claiming all of their tipps, then put their tip on you debit or credit card, they have to claim those tipps. At the company I work at they make the servers do more work and work longer hours because don't have to pay them that much!! They will let a host of a prep cook go home before a server!!!!

Hey I am a waitress and trust me YOU Should tip ALWAYS and decently. NO server, unless a really horribly lazy will ever give you lousy service on purpose. They work for their tips...THATS IT. I Make $2.13 an hour and after taxes I am lucky if I bring home a paycheck. Do you realize that the restaurant business for the most part makes a very little profit. To pay a server enough to put up with all the crap that ignorant people like you put them through would make the prices of food astronomical. Then you can not afford to go out to eat. It really is as simple as that. The manager of that restaurant should have probably did more but did you really think anyone intended for it to happen? So thats great the restaurant makes money and the poor kid who had to spend all night busting his ass gets nothing. Before you write such Rude and ignorant statements, be a server at applebee's or fridays and see how hard you work just for a week. Then let's see if you will be a little more generous when you eat. But until you do I believe I speak on behave of all the servers in the world... GET TAKE OUTS or McDonalds. If YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY BY THE RULES STAY HOME!

One of the best jokes I heard about tipping was about Canadians, unfortunately: "What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe? Canoes tip!" Mind you, I'm Canadian. This just came from an expat Canadian cousin working in the States.

Here's how I see tipping: A waitperson works for two masters; the establishment's owners and the patron. S/he is paid a wage by the establishment's owners for representing those interests. S/he is tipped by the patron for representing the patron's interests. For example, I would like my meal to be served with mashed potatoes instead of fries. I ask the waitperson to arrange this and if they are able to then they have performed a service justifying a larger than average tip. I start tipping at a rate of 10% or the pre-tax bill. If the waitperson makes sure my water glass is filled, any little extras are arranged with the kitchen for me, etc. then the basic tip goes up. If the waitperson douses my pants with icy water, or if the cutlery is spotty or if I have to wait ages to get her/his attention then the tip goes down from the basic. This is what I do. Not for everyone perhaps but I rarely feel taken advantage of by surly waitstaff or feel that I've under-rewarded great service.

People who don't tip at least 15% should stay at home and not bother people like me... Oh yeah, the worst excuse in the world is this "I'm poor, I'm a student and I can't afford to tip..." Boo freakin' hoo- join the club- so are most of us! So do us a favor, buy a case of beer, order out, whatever, but don't dine out!

People who don't tip at least 15% should stay at home and not bother people like me... Oh yeah, the worst excuse in the world is this "I'm poor, I'm a student and I can't afford to tip..." Boo freakin' hoo- join the club- so are most of us! So do us a favor, buy a case of beer, order out, whatever, but don't dine out!

Although I have an associate's degree in business management, and graduated with a 4.0 - life circumstances have left me no choice but to spend my weekends waiting tables. I read a comment that someone made about not whining about getting tips and instead looking into furthering your education and doing something about your situation. Sometimes that is easier said than done. Personally - I was happily married and financially stable, and had 3 children. A cheating husband left me no choice but to leave that life, and go on to raise 3 children alone - which I did, by working in a factory during the day and waiting tables at night. I eventually remarried - and ended up having to take custody of his 2 children because they were being unproperly cared for by their biological mother - this left me with 5 children. The good news was that my husband had a very good paying job, so I was able to further my education. As luck would have it, I became pregnant (this was unintentional, and could probably have been avoided - so I will take credit for this part of my hectic life!!- which I am grateful for at any rate!) Shortly after - my husband was injured pretty seriously at work and his income dropped from $900/wk to $200/wk. I cannot take advantage of my degree at this time because he cannot do some things, such as drive, and lift the baby. So the only job that can accomodate hours I can work - is a waitress job. It can be an awful job to have. Some people look down on you and make you feel so small sometimes, and the funny thing is, over half of them wouldn't last one day in my shoes. If patrons don't want to tip me - fine. I'll take my $2.13 an hour, and pay taxes on the amount of their bill. (At my job, we are required to claim 10% of our total sales as our tips - whether we make it or not. We are also required to tip out 3% of our sales to the rest of the staff.) In summary - if my food/beverage sales for the day are $1000 - I have to claim $100 in tips - and I have to give $30 of my tips to the rest of the staff. Chances are - I won't make much more than $100 anyhow, not with today's society - keep in mind, I'm already only getting to keep $70 of that. But that's okay, I'll sleep well at night knowing I went to the only job that I could, given my situation, and did the best job I could.

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

After her scholarship funds were depleted, my daughter put her way through college, as a waitress. Once, a large group of Jr. college football players left her NO tip... after she had been friendly and worked HARD. That made her incensed. I covered their lack of couth, "big-time" (THAT time). My second wife had a dark complexion. At a rural restaurant, the owner's/ waiter's racist demeanor was exceedingly conspicuous. I left a penny tip... and informed my hundreds of local family, friends, associates and acquantaines (and asked them to spread the word). I should have sued! Once, the service was so atrocious -- in a fairly upscale establishment -- that I added one cent to my VISA slip. When my copy was returned, that had (vigorously!) been lined-through. I was MORE frustrated. My dining companion (Penny) pulled a penny from her purse and put it in the middle of the table). As a rule, I tip lavishly (occasionally, 100% or more... especially, when I win in a casino). For balanced perspective, I've gone beyond pennies and complaints to supervisors: I've written indignant correspondence to CEOs, Chairpeople of Boards and editors. But then, that's just me. They've (NOT the editors) apologized, profusely, comped my meals and given me coupons for future meals (which I cash-in at OTHER locales -- I'm no dummy!).

Customer service is the most difficult profession in the work environment, hands down. I have waited tables for more than five years in an above average establishment and managed to concurrently put myself through college full time. I have paid my bills with a few bucks to spare, but nothing too extravagant. Being on your feet all day, consistantly moving at a steady pace for easily nine or more hours is trying. At 23 years old I already have seyatica and terrible knees, all the while dealing with the most unhappy and utterly miserable human race there is... the uneasy american public. Please don't get me wrong, there have been wonderful, pleasant people that can turn your day around, but I have progressivly watched people digress to an absolutely rediculous and unnecessary level of disrespect and do anything for a comp. May I also remind you that I also make an hourly wage of $2.13. Yes... Two dollars and change an hour that I never see due to taxes. I also claim ten percent of my gratuities to Uncle Sam. At the end of every night, I tip out 3% of my total sales to a busser, bartender. If my total sales are $1000 and I have only made $140.00 (14%)I have really only walked with $110.00 which is not tax exempt... just cash. On a 10 hour shift on a friday I essentially made $11.00. Next friday could be $8 an hour. Again, I work for an above average restaurant where the check averages for two people are commonly in the $50.00 range. Being in the profession five years and having the polished skills that I do, a fifty dollar check equals an $8-10 tip. I can be praised by the customer and treated with dignity and get a $5 dollar tip and feel compensated. Dignity speaks people!!! If I do a terrible job and am unpleasant, then by all means I may not deserve to be compensated and rewarded by a gratuity. I am also a customer. I have one word for the awful server that hates her job.... QUIT!!! As much as you obviously and provingly hate it, we hate you serving us as well. As a generous customer in the gratuity area, I can honestly say that I have never "stiffed" my server... even in the worst service category. I will tell them that I think they are awful, but I can't justify "free service" even if it is poor. Maybe that's just me....

I recently visited the Bitter Waitress.com because of a NYTimes Story. It was a blast !! They lists names of STD (Shitty Tippers Database) One of the names Robert O. Ray (4th from top) included his cell phone # 214-727-7176. Wonder if he received a lot of response !!!! HA

Just a question but why don't Nurses get tips?, or paramedics? Don't bus drivers do thesame job as taxi drivers? Retail staff- when you go in to a store and find something you want to buy, it is the retail assistant who takes the item off the hanger and folds it up nice and then allows you to pay her money ( her being the bosses representative) she is faciliting your consumption of the product by way of service. I don't know abouttodays society it looks as if it is heading to the situation where when one human interacts with another, one of you is going to have to bend over and get screwed.

Whether or not the tipping system is moral/immoral, demeaning/respectful, or right/wrong, it exists. Waitstaff get paid based on the expectation of gratuity. To suggest that they should "get another job" is both ignorant and insulting. It is often the last bastion for people who don't have 8 hours to spare 5 times a week. Try taking care of children or going to school and working 40 hour weeks, it simply is not possible. I personally believe that everyone should work in the service industry at least once. It is an excellent lesson in psychology. You learn more from someone by observing how they treat another who is at their beck and call than by anything else. I really am amazed by the comments from many of the people here, and also surprised. Being from the states I always figured we were far more egocentric and selfish with our money, what with our rampant capitalism and low minimum wages (apparently not nearly as low as yours). Instead I find that many Canadians are as cheap and selfish, if not more so, as the average penny pinching yankee tightwad. Payup people! There are few things that are hated more than cheapness, and few things that are appreciated more than generosity. If you have little or no money eat at a less expensive restaurant. You have a hundred choices of where to eat, your server most likely has few if any choices of where to work!

ok...this is just ridiculous, i have worked in a below-minimum wage service job for four years now, as it is not a waitressing position i have never once received a tip and my manager's view is "why should i give her a raise when i could just fire her and replace her with another minimum wage worker". I don't see why i should have to subsidize their income just because they happen to be the one out of like a hundred different types of service industry workers whose place of employment is a restaurant. You can call it cheap, you can call it rude but I'm not going to give what little money i make to increase their wage. So, yes i am one of those so-called embarassing friends who will openly walk into a restaurant and tip NOTHING! i don't care if the service is horrible or amazing, they get nada.

Well coming from a country which does not tip, heres my 15%. I don't agree with it! I find it quite Socialist and tending toward communinist which is quite strange when you consider it is the americans who have marketed this crap on to the world (yes the english upper class started it, but it was the yanks who took the oncept and ran with it). But socialism only for a few, as a few have pointed out above why just certain jobs? 1)paid a low wage. I don't know about you but i have had low paying jobs in the past (which ignoring the fact that i was in NZ, would not be classed as tip worthy), so why should someone who gets paid min wage be required to tip someone else if the situation arises (yes you will say that they don't go out so won't be affected, well sorry but they proberly go out on special occasions which they save up for). And if i did not like my wage i did something about it, education, training which cost money ( spend money to earn money) so it is your choice your decision. Another part of this is well get paid low wage due to expectation of tips- I liken this to commission selling, except for the fact that the commission seller actually looks for customers and attempts to sell, rather than wait for the customer to come to them, which is what happens when you walk in for a meal. Now the way commission works is the more you sell the more you get but it can work reverse. I can fully understand why waiters ask the customers to pay their wage, rather than THE PERSON WHO HIRED THEM (aka boss), it is because they can vary their income and basically get paid more for working less than some other low paying job ( this is mentioned above (work little hours low skill better pay). Putting it very simply we go into a resturant for food, that is it pure and simple, the price charged is what the boss says he wants for providing this service (providing me with cooked food at a place where i can be seated to enjoy the food, i care about the food tasting good, if the service is bad that is the bosses problem as i won't go back and will tell people of the experience, if the service good i don't care the fodd still has to be good, if it isn't i won't go back. I work if i do a bad job it is my boss who can decide if this is a one off or basically that i am useless, and take action accordingly. It is your job to serve the food. all i want is it in front of me. It is not my job to pay you your wages, that is the boss's job. You may say the food is cheap to accout for low wages, and that if they paid you higher wages then the food would cost more. i don't mind if it cost too much i won't go and that becomes your bosses problem and perhaps yours if enough people follow me. Life is tough enough as it is i do not see why i should provide a living for someone i don't even know. You can call me cheap but i will provide for those people i love and trust. So in respnse to those on the board who are saying pay up, i would advise you are telling it to the wrong person try your boss.

I have always tipped well for good service. However, after reading through this thread I now have a better understanding of the waiter/waitress world. You are all a bunch of whining crazed freaks - who, it would appear, are really unhappy in your jobs - but you all must be pretty stupid because you keep doing those jobs. Don't write back and say "that is all I can do in my situation" - there is always a better job out there if you really look and try for it. Oh, but wait, no you would rather keep bitching and try and swindle money out of us cheap slobs. It actually scares me that servers in restaurants have such issues - what really goes in the back room where your meals are being prepared?? I am going to spread the word to everyone that I know and really encourage them to try and stay in more and if they really must go out to eat to take a close look at who is serving them - chances are the smile is phoney and any helpfullness is not for real. Servers - you have not done a service to yourself by writing what you have in this thread.

I work at a casino buffet and have to declare tips but I get lots of stiffs all day long no matter if I give great service or not I do not think it's fair that we have to work so hard and average $1.00 per table I only make $5.15 an hour. I have been in the restaurant business for 23 years, and never made this kind of money. I am a mother of 5 kids. I do not think that when you work in a buffet you should have to claim all your stiffs. People are too greedy with there money and they would much rather take there money on the casino and take a risk of losing it than having the decency of tipping a good server when you know you've got great service. I think people should realize what a great job servers do for them and provide them with the best service they could possibly give.

While I could make an argument that tips should be done away with, and that the restaurant should pay at least minimum wage (& more to keep a good wait staff), from my perspective, tips made the job more fun--I liked the incentive and the competition they encourage. As a liberal person, I like the idea of team effort, but the reality is I like competition too.

Of course, if wait staff do not receive tips, wages will have to be raised, and the additional cost will be passed on to the consumer. This would actually be more fair to some extent, since currently some people tip a lot and some not at all.

are you people serious?! we all know tipping is part of going out to dinner. if you get bad service thats one thing but to say "i dont belive in it." is really fucked up! we pay athletes millions to play a game we played as children for free and for fun, but the thought of giving a few dollars to someone waiting on you is not ok. so to those of you who feel this way i challenge you to get off your high horse and try waiting tables dealing with assholes like you people. if you cant tip dont go out! bad service is bad service but to not tip on belive is bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like you to know that I am a server and I have four children that depends on my tips. What do you make an hour because servers make a whole $2.13 an hour you know how much my 40 hour check is???? you do the math, so the next time you sit down at a fancy table I hope the server pours crap in your lap.