Doomed if you do, doomed if you don't

Le Devoir cartoon is priceless. Check http://www.ledevoir.com/2007/10/17/160827.html for "What they don't teach in PolSci"

Let's see how he stickhandles. He hopefully can do better than throw himself down the cliff, as a figure of speach.

LIEberal Penalty Box

The damage done by Cretien's reign has not been paid for politically.

It shall not be until each and every one of the LIEberals whom were sitting in an MP's seat are gone.

That should be the price for the sort of shawinigans that were done to the electorate for a decade.

The PC's paid: party of 2. Then not even a sniff at power for 15 years.

Time for a new opposition, what the heck even the NDP can not do worse than the LIEberals have this past year.

I wish I could vote for a BQ candidate in BC.

Mockisition

It has been a great opportunity for Layton to realign himself and his party, especially on the heals of Harper's head strategist, Tom Flanagans, revelation that Jack "held up his end," in a achieving the Conservative rise to power.

To quote Flanagan directly : "No matter how well designed our campaign had been, it would have been hard for us to win if the NDP had not held up its end," See the story here:
http://members.shaw.ca/shunlunn/divide.htm

I am sure, that ever since this back room 'revelation' Jack's war room has worked overtime to unearth opportunities to "oppose" the Cons. Given that the Conservative agenda does not exactly square with that of most New Dippers.

Obviously opposing the speech before even hearing it and spending most of his time daring the liberals to "prop up the government" is more about blowing up a smoke screen and coming out from under the accusations of delivering for the Conservatives.

Good on ya Jack and co. for invoking the spirit of Tommy Douglas and once again relying on the old saw of the Black and White cats. Must be all nice and cozy wrapped up in Tommy's warm and fuzzy nostalgic legend.

Good luck with trying to put the progressive back in progressive conservative as I am sure it is getting pretty dicey out there in mockisition land.

What oposition?...

The Throne Speech was far from good, but better than expected given the threatening politicking from the previous weeks. The party leaders had more time to fume after a frustrating summer of largely successful Harper strategising. But, the Conservatives haven't sold Canadians yet. They have focussed so much effort on Quebec, they are losing ground pretty well everywhere else. The Grits are fractured, the NDP looked weakened from lack of ammo in the Throne Speech coming out expecting a fight and swinging at air balls... Duceppe is as predictable as ever and is losing steam. Canadians are drifting across the spectrum and realizing that old skool politics is well, too old skool. Not buying what they're selling and have indeed lost touch with the voters. The Greens are getting a look and nearly won a seat in the Ontario election beating out the NDP in 18 ridings with a tremendous (nearly triple) rise in support. Perhaps Elizabeth May and deputy leader, Adriane Carr, realized that a redefinition of what the GPC stands for is needed in time for the Throne Speech. Heck the media, including the Tyee, have done little in this regard.
Enter "Vision Green" right in time for the ugly mud-slinging of the traditional parties scrambling positioning for an election: [url=http://www.greenparty.ca/en/policy/visiongreen?origin=redirect]
Bravo!

politico

Remember:

Sounds like a pretty successful strategy to me. As for the Liberals being a 'leftist' party...dream on. They're busy promoting exactly the same corporate agenda most Conservatives do. Flanagan and Harper and a few other former Reform/Alliance characters are the extremists - pushing an agenda that many ‘Progressive’ Conservatives are very nervous about too.

As for the greens, I think they belong in the House of Commons as well - If Harper has actually proposed some real electoral reform (instead of fiddling with the Senate and railing about Burka-clad women voters in the throne speech) then we might actually have a chance of developing a real democracy in this country. Read Flanagan's Ten Commandments if you really think he has anything positive and democratic in mind for Canada.

These guys are ideologues and they're dangerous - but business will go along, as always, as long as there's a prospect of profit in the mix for them. Pretending, all the while, that the problems of the last 30 years are a result of NDP policies or that the NDP had anything to do with bringing Harper to power.

I can't wait to see how the Liberals are going to spin their support for pee wee...clearly they're not ready for an election so we're likely to hear a lot of excuses.

And, if there's an election anyway, so be it - the business rats will leave the sinking Liberal ship to book passage on pee wee's new liner anyway.

In the end, the only real Opposition always comes from the real Leftists anyway. And that’s a good thing.

Real Leftists?!

G West

The seat haul you refer to had everything do with Jack's agenda of the day which has since been altered dramatically and I suspect much of the support Jack garnered is appalled to learn their vote delivered for the conservatives.

Jack is lucky there will be no election as the result of that knowledge will translate into less votes.

I don't recall identifying the Liberals as a leftist party. That being said politics abhors a vacuum so I suspect that with the NDP's stealth support of the right, Dion will be forced to pick up whats left in a pragmatic approach to effectively oppose the Conservatives.

I have read Flanagan's ten commandments as you suggest and their success is based on a strong NDP showing that splits the vote. In addition to the conservative strategy of "keeping the opposition parties at each others throats." See all this here: http://members.shaw.ca/shunlunn/divide.htm

The latter being clearly illustrated in your post's generalized condemnation of the other parties while trying to claim some high ground for the conservative supporting new democrats.

You and some new democrats would be wise to remember the more mud you sling the more ground you loose.

politico

Dion is too scared to go to the polls. So instead he's propping up the Conservatives.

And of course you have to go through 15 different contortions in order to blame the NDP for it.

The NDP and the Libs don't split the vote any more than the Conservatives and the Liberals do.

People that vote Liberal aren't NDPers, they're Liberals. Blaming the NDP because the Libs can't beat the Conservatives is a bit rich.

Frankly

Whats rich is the denial of the vote split.

Explain to me what the third election in as many years will accomplish?

Explain to me exactly what Layton is opposing in the speech and why his focus is on spreading this spin you forward.

The liberal party, much to our chagrin, is one of the most effective parties in the world and after you take a sober look at the recent Ontario election, how can you possibly belief the pro harper corporate media hype that somehow the libs are running scared?

Is it because they have little support in Quebec and the right leaning weasels of the party are bailing ship?

While here is a news flash for you. Quebec does not like the Liberals and has not for sometime.

And good riddance to the right's moles that have long manipulated the Liberal party, the NDP should only be so lucky!

Me slinging mud? That's rich politico

Have a look at what YOU wrote politico:

Good luck with trying to put the progressive back in progressive conservative as I am sure it is getting pretty dicey out there in mockisition land.

The point is to win seats. I think Layton's doing pretty well on that score - considering the FPP system we have. As for calling the Liberals leftists - did you really read Flanagan's 10 commandments or not? It's one of the biggest arguments Harper and the boys trot out when they're talking to a real right wing crowd...remember.

Of course the Liberals aren't leftists - but that's what guys like Harper tend to believe along with the looney right wing from the old reform/alliance/manning socred rump.

That's why Flannagan is so concerned with not 'appearing' to be radical until pee wee actually gets a majority.

As for blaming the NDP, guess that little picnic is over now - cause it's the Liberals who're afraid of an election and will now absent themselves when ever a non-confidence vote comes up. Anybody who tries to maintain that the 4th party in a 4-party house sets the agenda is clutching at straws.

The only way the NDP ever had any power in this country was as part of an informal working agreement with a couple of Liberal governments - look where that got them.

The NDP should never agree to anything with any other party unless there are cabinet seats involved in a formal coalition.

The way the Liberals are going, maybe it won't be too long before the real liberals among them join the NDP and the Bay street/Howe street pretenders go where they really belong - to pee wee and the boys.

politico

Both quotes are yours. if the libs aren't a left-wing party as you say, and which I agree with, then there is no vote split. To Tom Flanagan everyone to the left of Ghengis Khan is a scoalist so if that's your goto guy on politics of course he's going to say all the opposition parties are splitting the vote. because he doesn't see the differences between NDP and Greens or Libs and NDP.

For the NDP? Same as it always is, get the message out and try and win some new seats.

if you're a Liberal and you see the Cons 6 points ahead there's probably no reason to want an election. But blamimg the NDP for Liberal woes is a non-starter.

Because its not a state secret that they haven't exactly unified behind their new leader. Dion does not enjoy the confidence of his party and doesn't think his party is ready for an election.

And yet that past strength in Quebec is exactly the reason the Libs are one of the most successful parties. Without their strength in Quebec they're the same as everybody else.

G West

Maybe it is just me, but your points are as clear as mud.

I did not claim that any 4th party was setting the agenda of a 4 party house. Although, since you bring it up, Jack's committee dance with the clean air act was an attempt at exactly that which did nothing but blunt the edge of the Conservative's oil patch driven agenda.

This may very well be what supporting a Conservative Minority house while dissing the Liberals results in, but it does not mean "real leftists" or NDP members support such a coalition.

Finally, I don't see how pointing out the party's consistent strategy to invoke the nostalgia of Tommy Douglas in an attempt to slander the Liberals is offensive.

Frank

No one claims the vote split exists solely among the "left wing." As you know, it is and always has been moderately defined centrists that are swing voters.

The contortions are clearly reserved for the political calisthenics required to spin out the tripe about there being no vote split.

A quick glean of political history based in democracies that require a vote will clearly spell out for you the utilization of the strategy of the vote split. Any denial of such is pure and utter hogwash.

So what you are saying is that the NDP is willing to be part of causing yet another federal election which will simply add to voter fatigue and apathy while bolstering the conservative minority with another election and so called mandate from the people.

This would suggest you are content with New Democrats making what amounts to essentially meaningless gains at the expense of the progressive values the party was founded upon and the leadership portends to purport?

Finally, I don't believe it is accurate to suggest the Liberals are all about support in Quebec and without differ from no one. If that were in fact the case then your argument about the vote split would become moot, would it not?

politico

Are you implying that NDPers are simply "Liberals in a hurry"? Because although that line is decades old it is still not true. Saying Conservatives are simply Liberals in a hurry on the other hand rings pretty true for me.

Oh I see, you're claiming that every new party takes away votes from existing parties? And therefore are nothing but splitters? In your words, hogwash.

While it is certainly true that the existence of the Conservatives keeps those voters from voting Liberal (in order to stop the NDP) I wouldn't call Conservative voters "Liberals-that-are-splitting-the-vote".

Nobody cares about voter fatigue and apathy. If that was the case we wouldn't even have first past the post.

The gains made by the NDP are in fact what matters. I have no idea what you're talking about when you add "at the expense of progressive..".

Say again? How?

I think it's pretty obvious, politico

I think you sound like a disgruntled Liberal trying to blame, as Liberals are wont to do, the imminent demise of the party on anyone BUT themselves. If that's not the case I stand corrected.

But that hoary old saw about the NDP being responsible for pulling the rug out from under the Paul Martin minority is utter nonsense and you're just re-spinning the same old offensive stuff.

In the end, if we're going to have a two party system so be it - just let’s have one party - the Conservatives on the right and another - the NDP or the Greens or Labour or what have you - on the left - names don't matter that much to me.

But, if the NDP is no better than number 4 in the current mix then I don't see how you can expect them to do anything but represent progressive ideals and push the 'people' to demand them.

God knows we get little enough progressive legislation when there is either a Conservative or a Liberal majority government in power and the NDP has NEVER been in power federally. So stop the blame game - it's just nonsense when confronted with that reality - especially given the Liberal record of shirt-popping arrogance.

Blaming Jack and leftists for the mess the Libs and the Cons have made of things is hardly mud-slinging; it's simply telling the truth. Something that has been the case consistently since the 1930s.

The Liberals are the absolute ne plus ultra at promising one thing and doing another and it is about time they learned to actually live with that record, in my view. Personally, I think, as happened in Britain in the twenties - we'd be far better to get rid of them as a major political actor - they're heroes only in their own eyes.

The vision of Stephane Dion in the House today complaining about the one progressive and intelligent thing Harper's government actually did in the past year and half (Income Trusts) was all most people should need to remind them that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for the status quo.

You are right about one thing though, the Liberals are no more corrupt in Quebec than they are anywhere else in the nation.

My point exactly.

Let the political mud-slinging continue! Next election watch for a surge in votes for the Greens who represent the most important issue to Canadians with a viable and realistic plan to face the Climate Crisis ("change" is nice though). The NDP is a great opposition party -- all they do is oppose. They will never form government because they are not bringing anything "new" and not working to reform the "democracy". Maybe they should consider a name change... I could say th same for the Liberals (or is it NEO-Liberals to appeal to the right). If we are going to combat the global issues at hand, we have to get past partisan politics and collaborate. I'm not saying that we should all just drop our guard and accept the Tory line -- far from it. We have to get past electoral strategy and into democratic reform and passing solution-based policy for long-term benefits.

Green Dude

Just so you know. There is nothing more partisan than electoral reform.

Now put down your granola and go plant some trees.... just kidding.

The point about getting past partisan obstacles and bolstering democracy is something I completely agree with.

"Solution based policies for long term benefits," is the whole underpinning of this campaign I first referred to when entering this debate.
http://members.shaw.ca/shunlunn/

What an ignorant arrogant

What an ignorant arrogant ass that harper is.

This guy really has to go but I honestly do not see that happening.

I should not take politics so seriously but this government is really bad for my mental health well being.

I just wonder when we have to start calling Harper 'Dear Leader'? He acts like a dictator with his little minority and his only saving grace, is the fact the Liberals screwed up and elected the wrong person to lead them.

I just wish Layton could get more support and I really can not understand it. Same old two ancient party's running this country and yet we never give another party, especially one that has been around a long time a chance to run the country.

I wonder if there is time for another liberal leadership convention now? It is time they get a 'real' leader.

It is time for Dion to go. He is a huge disappointment and by supporting the Throne Speech it shows that is is too scared of Harper and can be bullied.

Con fuoco

Oh c'mon.... right now there's no real damn opposition worth its skin in the "so-called" political power circles of Canada .... anywhere. I see no countering courageous ability or galvanizing force that is a match for the devious treachery at work in this country presently.

The real danger of Harper and Flanagan ( and the corporate elite they represent) cannot be overlooked....nor their well-staged play for a majority win.

Remember this from that article in The Walrus:

Quote:

"For the Calgary School, in turn, intellectual inspiration has always run north-south, not east-west. Its papers are studded with admiring references to the most controversial figures on the U.S. conservative landscape. In his argument for aboriginal assimilation, Flanagan repeatedly cites Thomas Sowell, a black Republican who became the darling of the Reagan-Bush right for attacking affirmative action. Not surprisingly, most of the group's policy prescriptions -- from an elected senate to parliamentary approval of judges -- would have one effect: they would wipe out the quirky bilateral differences that are stumbling blocks to seamless integration with the United States."

So let's not waste any more time on all the cleverly placed distracting manipulative political flotsam that people and political parties keep falling for. Face the central issue at hand - really, the only issue - facing it will do more to save the social fabric of this country than any of the relentlessly contrived ones.

By doing so we will save our public medical system, public education, our rivers, our water, our power, our resources, our environment,...our Canadian soul, our sovereignty, Canada itself.

And that's exactly why those in high places are playing their coy games of distraction - because our social system, and our rights as Canadian people... are obstacles to their new agenda.

The central issue to be faced is:

"The Americanization of Canada"

....that is happening right now and at a frenzied pace. The invading corporate forces of privatization are slyly colluding with government at all levels, chipping away at Canada, bit by bit.

We as a country and a people have everything to lose.

How can a person who truly loves this country support a political party that does not see this is the central issue.... and vigorously champion its cause above all else?

Well put Lynn

That IS the central issue - no question.

The fact that Harper has backed himself into a situation where he is unable to call an election (because of the changes made to the election act last spring) gives the opposition parties a golden chance to grill him mercilessly until October 19, 2009. They should use the advantage his arrogance and short-sightedness have provided to turn him into the closed minded snarling bigot he really is. The Canadian Alliance Harper needs to be back on centre stage….

Some of that already has come out in the throne speech and his address to the Commons. The opposition now has to find a way to work together and use the rules of the house in order to bring the 'real' Stephen Harper and his agenda to the public's attention. The question is, is that gang of three up to it.

Sounds real rah rah

Until Bruce Allen, in his own unique way, tries to do the same thing and gets shot down in flames. I wonder if what he was against is part of the problem? "Our Canadian Soul" huh?

...."soul" as in James Brown

Now that you mention it, snert.... I am, however, all in favour of Bruce Allen separating from Canada.

Its Confusing isn't it?

I wish it was that easy voting that is but it isn't on party politics alone. I couldn't help but notice Layton's relationship with the Conservatives of recent and find it very troubling. Opposition is Right Wing no no no NDP left Wing or did he forget? Laid back Layton they will soon be calling him if his performance as opposition continues to come up lame and Its the kinda leader he is wouldn't matter which party doesn't take no big strategy there. Who is good for Canada and her people is on my mind and the minds of fellow Canadians and I'm thinking Liberal under the leadership of Dion because at least I know what I'll be getting a gifted leader with a great deal of knowledge and passion for his country and under his leadership keep Canada somewhere in the middle much like the people who inhabit it.